Manitoba Hansard — 19 April 1982 (Sitting 36A, 32nd Legislature, 1st Session)

32-1-36a

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

LE GISLATIVE ASSE MB LY OF MANI TOBA Mon day, 19 April, 1982 Time - 2:00 p.m. OPEN ING PRAYER by Mr. Speak er. MR. SPEAKER, Hon. D. Ja mes Waldin g (St. Vital): Prese nting Petitions ... Rea ding and Rec eiving Petitions ... Pr esenting Repor ts by Standing and Special Comm ittees ... MINI STE RIAL STATEME NTS AND TABLING OF REPOR TS MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Minister of Munici pal Affairs. HO N. A.R. (Pete) ADAM (Ste. Ro se): Mr .

Speaker, I'd like to have leave of the Ho use to table the Repor t of the Man itoba Assess ment Review Comm ittee and the Summ ary Repor t of the Manitoba Assessment Review Commit tee. Mr. Speaker, I wonder if I could have leave of the House just to make a very brief com ment th ereu pon. MR. SPEAKER: Is it agreed? (Ag reed) MR. ADAM: Thank you, Mr . Speaker, the repor t con cludes the review started by mem bers opposite in July, 1979. Going through the repor t you will note tha t there ar e some 165 recomme ndations contained in the 327-page report.

Star ting tomor row I pro pose to distribute the repor t and the summ ary to all units of local government , school divisions and persons listed who presented subm issions to the comm ittee. The repor t and the summa ry will be made avai lable to interested persons upon inquiry with my department. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Memb er for Swan River. MR. D.M. (D oug) GOURL AY (Swan Ri ver): Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I'd lik e to thank the Minister of Municipal Affa irs for making the Repor t of the Assessment Review Comm ittee available to us today.

I know tha t all mem bers of the Ho use are inter ested in look ing at this repor t in mo re deta il as it's evident tha t there are many discrepancies in the field of assess ment, and I'm sure tha t we'll be all anxi ous to have input into this to come up with new reco mm endations for the province. MR. SPEAKER: Notices of Motion IN TRODU CTION OF BILLS HON. EUGENE KO STYRA (Seven Oa ks) introd uced Bill No. 19 ,

an Act to amend The Landl ord and Tenant Act; and Bill No. 20,

an Act to amend The Condomi nium Act. INTRODUCTION OF GU ESTS MR. SPEAKER: Before we reach Oral Questions, may I direct the attention of honour able mem bers to 15 77 the gal ler y where we have 56 students of Gr ade 11 standing from the West Kildonan Collegia te. The se students are under the direction of Mrs. Bai ley and Mr . Buck ler. This school is in the constituency of the Honour able Minister of Consu mer and Corpor ate Affai rs. On behalf of all the mem bers, I welcome you here today. ORAL QU ESTIO NS MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Memb er for Concor dia. MR. PETER FOX (Concor dia): Thank you, Mr .

Speaker. With the indulgence of the Ho use, I would lik e to exp ress my appr eciation to all the mem bers, friends and acquaintances, who sent me letters of well wishes dur ing my recent ill ness. I want to indicate tha t par t of the time I was really not lucid and, of course, I didn't appr eciate much of wha t took pla ce at the beginning until later on. I had pancr eatitis for the first two weeks. When I thought I was ready to get dis cha rged , the y informed me that I would have to have a gall bladder opera tion and that took pla ce. I just had the stitche s out last week, Thur sday .

My phy sician has advised me I can come in for a couple of hour s a day for the first week or two and, as my strength increases, I'll be par ticipating to the extent tha t I can. Agai n, my sincer e thank s to everyo ne and also to the nursing staff and the phy sicians at the Concor dia Hospital. Thank you ver y much. MR. SPEA KER: The Honour able Me mb er for Lakeside. MR. HARRY ENNS (Lake side): Thank you , Mr. Speaker.

Prior to com mencement of Or al Questions, I want to certai nly, on behalf of mem ber s of Her Majes ty's Loyal Op posi tion, welcome the Honour able Memb er for Concor dia back to the Chamb er and wish him full and speedy recovery, not to be all tha t active in the Cham ber with respect to supp orting that governmen t's pol icies from time to time, but certainly as an active backbencher to par ticipate in the debates in this Chamb er. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Memb er for Stur geon Cr eek. MR. J. FRANK JOHNS TON (Stur geon Creek): Thank you, Mr . Speaker.

My question is to the Minister of Economic Develop ment and Tou rism. Mr . Speaker, it was announced over the weekend the unfor tunate situation at Vic toria Leather. Today, it was announced tha t the people would be going back to work and ther e would be negotiations between the company and the cr edit ors to ho pefu ll y reso lve the situation. Will the Minister have somebody from her department involv ed in those discussions from the point of view of the government being of some help to give advice in any way, shape or form so tha t this com pany ma y remain open?

Monda y, 19 A pril, 1982 MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Minister of Eco nomic Development . HO N. MURIE L SM ITH (Osb orne): Mr . Speaker, it gives me great pleasu re to announce that we've al ready autho rized the assignment of a memb er of the department to work closely with Victoria Leather in this very difficult adj ustment time. MR. JO HNSTON: Mr. Speaker, to the Minister, was there an assessment or a rev iew made of the impact tha t the minimum wage increase migh t ha ve had, or might have, on the garment industry in the Pro vince of Man itoba?

Was that assess ment made by the depar t ment and related to the Minister of Fina nce? MRS. SM ITH: Mr . Speaker, perhap s the Minister of Finance can give the det ail, but in the appr oach to minimum wage, I do have so me data with regard to the hotel industry, and the demon strat ion tha t ther e doesn't appear to be any par ticular difference in the numbers of tourists attending pro vinces which do or don't ha ve the spec ial extra minimum wage for tho se who serve alcoh olic beve rages.

With respect to the garment industry the principle of this government has been known for a long time, tha t we don't belie ve the secu rity or pr osperity of any industry shou ld be based on lower than fai r wages to any of their worker s, and tha t is the principle which we think make s not only good sense for the individual emplo yees but, in fact, make s good sense for the industry as well because empl oyee s who feel they ar e bei ng fairly treated and can pay their daily bill s ar e bound to be mor e productiv e in their daily work. MR. JO HNSTON: Mr .

Speaker, to the Minister, the chance to be mor e prod uctive is probably the most im por tant thing. Mr . Speaker, the garment industry in Man itoba is appr oxi mately 8 percent of the industry in Canada; the garment industry in Man itoba does 20 percent of the expor ts of garm ents tha t are expor ted from Canada. Ha s the Minister taken a close look at the industry gener ally fro m the poi nt of view tha t the industry is continually in com petition with garment industries in other ar ea of Canada, and to make sur e tha t our garment industry can be com petitive with people in other provi nces? MRS. SM ITH: Mr.

Speaker, I don't know tha t ther e's any clear evidence tha t low wages increase productiv ity. In fact, increases in prod uctivity seem to ha ve a lot mor e to do with the attitude on sk ills of the worker s and the amount of Cap ital investment in the industry. Our garment industry is, I think, making ver y consid erable strides in developing a higher tech nology in their industry with their compu ter assistant design and com puter assistant man ufacturing developme nts.

We look to greater impr ove ments in productiv ity mor e from tha t type of appr oac h and from the cli ma te of wor king conditio ns in the pla nts rather than from the ar tificial attempt to hold down minimum wage. MR. JO HNSTON: Mr . Speaker . I don't reca ll making any infer ence tha t low wages increased productivit y.

My refe rence is tha t the garment industry in the Pr ov ince of Man itoba has mo ved ah ead to be 8 percent of 15 78 the industry in Canada, 20 percent of the expor ts from Canada, an.d the y have done so on the basis of being able to be compe titive with other garment industries in this country. Has the Minister been making an assess ment of an industry that's in trouble? Whether she knows it or not ther e are problem s in tha t industry to make sure that our garment industry remains stable in this province and emplo ys people. MRS. SM ITH: Mr .

Speaker, it's our opinion tha t ques tions of tari ffs, questions of degree of modern ization of plant and general innovative spi rit which has char acterized our garment industry ar e going to do far mo re to reta in the com petitiveness of this industry then the mere, as I said befo re, ar tifical mai ntenanc e of low minimum wage. MR. SPEAKER: The Honou rable Memb er for St. Norber t. MR. G. W.J. {Gerr

y) MER CIER (St. Norbert): Mr . Speaker, on April 5th, the Honour able Minister of Labour indicated in response to a question from myself tha t when he was in receipt of the repor t of the Minimum Wage Boar d he would determ ine whether or not it will be distribut ed and when it will be distrib uted. Could he indicate if he will be ta bling tha t repor t in this Chamb er, Mr . Speaker? MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Minister of Labour. HO N. VIC SCHROEDER Ro ss mer e): Yes, Mr. Speaker, I exp ect tha t it will be tabled tomor row.

I understa nd that ther e were some probl ems with the printing, I be lieve, it's 90 copies required, but I under sta nd tha t can be done so tha t distri bution will be made tom orrow. MR. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, I thank the Minister for tha t respo nse. On April 5th, he also indicated that the Minimum Wage Boar d traditionally hold s hearing s with respect to or prior to making any reco mm enda tions for increases in the minimum wage but did not hold public heari ngs before making the reco mm enda tions tha t he apparently had .

Can the Minister ex plain why the trad itional hearings were not held by the Minimum Wage Board? MR. SCHROEDER: Yes, Mr . Speaker, as the former Atto rney -Gen eral prob ably well knows, ther e ha ve been no heari ngs held since the mid-1 970s and tha t was on the basis, as I understand it, that both emplo yee and emplo yer represe ntatives on the Boar d agreed tha t it was basically not getting them any wher e.

They were getting several submi ssions each time, but the y wer e basically the same ty pes of subm issions by the same group and it was a very predic table type of submi ssion that the Boar d itself felt wasn't bei ng of much assista nce and, of course, when the member s opp osite were in office, they continued with that. The y didn't have any public hear ings at all and we didn't see any particular reason why on this occasion we should ha ve them . I shou ld note, Mr .

Speaker , that on the occasion when the tip differ ential first ap pear ed, tha t issue was never discussed by the Minimum Wage Board, nor was tha t taken to

Mon day, 19 April, 198 2 the public. MR . MERCIER: Mr . Speaker, in view of state ments made with in the past few days about the possible effects of the annou nced increase on emp loyment and job s for young people and, particularly, in view of the difficult state of the economy, is the Minister con sideri ng ask ing the Minimum Wage Board to hold some form of heari ngs to hear repr esentations on this subject? MR. SCHROEDER: Mr . Speaker, we've heard com me nts with respect to, first of all, the young people.

I sh ould point out that our neighbouring province, Saskatc hewan, has no differential: tha t is, in Sas katchewan young people under 18 are receiving $4.25 an hour in terms of emp loyment her e. We did, of course, look into the ma tter of emplo yment and dis covered , as we had expect ed, that emplo yment in a given sector did not seem to have any correla tion: tha t is, ther e is an assump tion by some people tha t if you have lower minimum wages tha t automa tical ly means you will have mor e job s. Tha t is not necessa rily true.

Just for instance, in the emplo yment in hotels, res tau rants and tave rns with 20 or mo re employees, and this is from Statistics Canada, ther e is an indication tha t between 19 79 and 1981 , we ha ve a decrease of 2.3 percent in the numb er of employ ees work ing in tha t field in Man itoba. Tha t's at the ver y same time tha t in Saska tchewan ther e was an increase of 12 percent; in the Atlantic reg ion ther e was an increase of 7.1 per cent; in Al ber ta 18 .8 percent, etc.

We were the pro vince, at the same time while we were instituting a tip different ial, we were the province that was head ing downward in emplo yment and the other s were the ones tha t were hea ding upward. MR. SPEAKER: The Mem ber for St. Nor ber t on a point of order. MR. MERCIER: On a point of or der, Mr. Speaker, I merely asked the Minister whether he was consider ing asking the Minimum Wage Board to hold public heari ngs, yes or no - and he wants to use it, Mr . Speaker, but it was a very simple question. MR. SPEAKER: I bel ieve the Honour able Minister's reply was somewha t full.

Has the Honour able Minister finished his reply? MR. SCHROEDER: Mr . Speaker, wha t I was trying to do was get to the rea son why - I will be answering tha t question - but I just want to get some of the rea sons in, because ther e is some indication by the memb er op posite tha t this would do some good. I'm pointing out tha t one fact.

I'm also pointing out that in the Province of Man itoba we ha ve union agr eement s in effect with a numb er of hotels - 15 with, for instance, the Ho tel and Restaur ant Empl oyee s and Bar tending Interna tional Union Local 206 -' where beverage ser vice emplo yees are get ting $6.55 an hour. They seem to be compe ting quite wel l in tho se hotels in this pro vince wh ere the y ar e paying a decent wage and so, in total, it seems to me that ther e is no necessity today to ask for public hearings to deter mine a question which we have al ready as the el ected people in this province decided. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honour able Memb er for La Ver endrye. MR. ROBERT (Bob) BANMAN (La Verendr ye): Mr. Speaker, I have a question to the Minister of Finance and the Minister of Labour.

I wonder if he could tel l the House, in light of the record unemp loyment levels we're facing in this province, the problem s in the gar ment industry and many other rel ated industries, I wonder if he could tel l the people of Man itoba whether he will be removing the sale s tax on items such as clothing purchased in the Pro vince of Mani toba to try and stimula te some mor e consumer spend ing in tha t par ticular field, as I understa nd many of the garment people are now faced with fairly la rge inven tories and are probably going to be faced with mor e layof fs.

I wonder if the Minister is going to be reducing sales tax to try and help stimula te the economic struc ture in the Pro vince of Man itoba. MR. SPEAK ER: The Honour able Minister of Finance. MR. SCHROEDER: I'm sur e the honour able memb er knows tha t the time for budgetar y discussion is at the time the Budget is brought down.

I shou ld point out if the honour able mem ber is concerned about increased emplo yment in the pro vince tha t there will be, in fact, a wage mul tiplier effect from the annou ncement of the minimum wage increase: tha t is, the people who get tho se increased minimum wages are going to be spending them on thi ngs lik e food, cloth ing and shel ter tha t they didn't ha ve the mo ney for before we had the increase . I would suggest to the honour able mem ber tha t he just take his time and wait until the Budget comes down. 15 79 MR.

BANMAN: In light of the action, the ele ction prom ises tha t this govern ment was going to move and make things happen, I'd like to rem ind the Minister of Labo ur tha t we are facing record unemplo yment lev els. The minimum wage doesn't help anybody that's unemplo yed . People need job s and I am wonderi ng if he could inform this House, Mr. Speaker, the question which is on ever ybody 's mind, since we ha ve these record high unemplo yment rates, wha t is th is gov ernment going to do to al levia te some of tha t prob lem? In other words, when is it going to bring it s Budget down? MR. SCHROEDER: Mr .

Speaker, I don't have a copy her e of the election propaganda tha t the Torie s gave us in 19 77, but I recall a numb er of the prom ises the y made about a bright future for Ma nitoba : we would have mor e popula tion: we would have balanc ed budgets, tha t type of thing. We have been in power now for four-and-a -half mo nths and dur ing tha t time we ha ve be gun to impl ement our prom ises. The hon our able memb er asks about wha t we ha ve done to assist in terms of unemplo yment, what we are doing in this province.

We are, for insta nce, in a process - you 've heard the announc ement with respect to CCIL a few days ago, a few weeks ago. We ar e provi ding mo ney so tha t firm can continue in business. We have provided funds for the Credit Union movement; we

Monda y, 19 April, 198 2 have provided funds for those Man itobans who are suffering most from high interest rates in-the ar ea of ho meowners, small business people, farmer s again. Just with in the last few weeks, we prov ided mor e Capital funds in order to loan mone y at reaso nable interest rates to the farm popula tion in this pro vince and tha t is another area tha t the Opposition wel l knows is one of the bac kb ones of our economy. The honour able mem ber is tal king about our election commit ments, suggesting somehow that we ar e not moving towards fulfilling them.

I am giving him just a small example of wha t we have al ready achie ved. We ar e movi ng, Mr . Speaker, towards the impl emen tation of our election promis es, but unlike the unfulfil led election promis es of the Tories of 19 77, we ha ve th ree-a nd-a -half year s left to comple te our promis es. MR. BANM AN: I wonder .if the Minister of Labo ur could confirm tha t since his ad ministr ation has taken over, we have had an increased record numb er of businesses go ban krup t and that we now have the highest unemplo yment rates that the provi nce has had in many many years. MR. SCHROEDER: Mr .

Speaker, I had occasion to meet with some business people from Weste rn Mani toba on Frida y. They presented me with some stat is tics that showed tha t in Man itoba in the year, 1981 , perso nal ban krup tcies wer e thr ee times as high as the y were in other parts of Weste rn Canada, thr ee times as high under the Tor y regime. Now, Mr . Speaker, people don't walk to the line of bankru ptcy the minute there is a change in govern ment. It takes a lot of time and the people who are in financial diffi culty now ar e the people who were in financial diffi culty when tha t group was in power.

The y were in financial difficulty th ree years ago, two-and-a -half years ago, when the Mem ber for Transcona when he was sitting on tha t side was tal king about assistance for ho meowner s and business people with respect to inter est rates. What did they do? They voted it down. The y br ought noth ing in when the Joe Cl ark govern ment was in and br ough t in the highest inter est rates we had known since the war. Tha t was the type of opera tion we ha ve had to come and try to rectify. We had problems.

The people of Man itoba recog nized in Novemb er of 1981 that we had problems, tha t group wasn't going to deal with tho se problems and the y needed a new government to deal with them. MR. BAN MAN: Mr. Speaker, I go back to my question with regard to the sales tax and the Budget. All we are heari ng from the Minister is a bunch of rhetoric trying to justify his inaction in this field and, Mr . Speaker, the public record sho ws very clearly tha t the se bunch of band its acr oss the way her e rose to power on prom ises which they are not fulf illing. Mr.

Speaker, I have another minute-a nd-a -half to reply to the Memb er for .. . MR . SPEAKER: Order pl ease, order pl ease. The Honour able Govern ment House Leader on a point of order . POINT OF ORDER HON. ROL AND PENNER (Fort Rou ge): A point of order, the Honour able Member for La Ver endrye says he has a minute-an d-a -half to reply. This is not a question of rep lyi ng: this is question peri od. - (I nterjection)- No, he says he has another min ute and-a -half to reply and I am ask ing you to rule tha t this is not a case wher e a memb er can stand up and re ply to an answer given to a question.

He may ask a supplement ary question, but it must be a question. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Memb er for For t Ga rry. MR. SHERM AN: On the same point of order, the Govern ment Ho use Leader has no point of order wha tsoever on the basis of the exc hange tha t has taken pla ce in this question period this afternoon and some others, I migh t say. The Government Ho use Leader says this is question period; it's also answer period, Sir .

If he wants to time and measure the non answers tha t ha ve been coming from the Minister of Labour to legitimate questions and then try to put tha t case, it won't sel l, it won't wash, we won't buy it, nor will the public, Mr . Speaker.

If the Minister of Labou r is going to duck the question and skate all ar ound the issue and try to obfus cate the whole ma tter with rhe toric tha t is not relevant, then the Memb er for La Verend rye and every other member in this House has a right to be definitive in their questions and to set the stage for a question tha t will ho pefully extract some information from the Minister. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Government Ho use Leader to the same point of order. MR. PENNER: On the same point of order, I would ask you, Mr .

Speaker, to rule whether or not a memb er ha ving asked a question and received an answer, may then simply make a state ment in reply, or whether they're limit ed to a supplemen tary question. I would ask you to rule on th at. MR. SPEAKER: I thank both mem ber s for their com ments. They are quite right in noting tha t this is ques tion period, and I would remind all memb ers tha t this is question period and ask all mem bers to govern the mselv es accor dingly. The Honour able Memb er for La Ver endrye. 15 80 MR. BANMAN: Mr . Speaker, I thank you for tho se words.

I come back to my question, after four min utes of answers, and I would ask the Minister when he's going to bri ng down the Budget, which will ho pefully go ahe ad and pro vide some relief in the sales tax field for people in the Province of Man itoba, so we can stimulate some of the industries which ar e now facing record unemplo yment levels. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Minister of Financ e. MR. SCH ROED ER: Soon, Mr . Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Memb er for Mor ris. MR. CLAYTON MANN ESS (Morris): Thank you, Mr . Speaker. I'd like to add ress my question to the Minis ter of Natural Resources.

Monday, 19 April, 1982 I understand it is the government's intention to meet with officials from the municipalitie s and the towns to the south tomor row afternoon for the pur pose of discus si ng funding proportions regard ing the Valle y di kes, and I'm wondering if the Min ister could tell us whether it is the government's in tention to assess towns or mun icip alitie s at 1. 5 percent of Capi tal cost-fee for mula for mai ntenance. In the case of Mor ris, I represent some $45,000 per year simply for the main tenance of that dike. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Min ister of Natur al Resources. l-ION.

AL MACKLING (St. James): Mr . Speaker, it is -l1ot my intention to dis cuss the discussions I will have with representati ves from the towns here until those discussi ons have taken place. MR. MANNESS: Can the Min ister then indi cate whether a detai led analysis has been performed so as to determine the true costs of mai ntai ning di kes, or are these percentage estima tes the latest of which I've heard being 1. 5 percent, or were they just simply shots in the dark? MR. MACKLING: Mr.

Speaker, in my discussions with representatives of the commun ities, I will be act t:lg on the best advice availa ble to me. �� R. SPEAKER: The Honour able Memb er for Minn edosa. MFI. DA VID R. (Da ve) BLAKE (Mi nnedosa): Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My que stion is to the Min ister of Muni cipal Affairs. I wonder if he could inform the Ho use if the applica tions for funding on their Main Street- Man itoba Pro gram and the covering reg ulations and gu ideli nes have now been final ized and have gone out to the muni cipal ities. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Mini ster of Munici pal Affairs. MR. ADAM: No, Mr.

Speaker, they have not been final ized at this point in time: While I'm on my feet, Mr . Speaker, the Acting Min ister of Munici pal Affairs took a question as notice from the Memb er for Swan Ri ver, and I would like to reply to that question if I may. The question was whether the termi nations of the previous Munic ipal Board had been termina ted, and I would advise the memb er that as of Ma rch 30th, all the mem bers of the Munic ipal Board, the terms were ter mi nated. Six new board members have been appointed and form ulized and there are further appointm ents to be made, Mr .

Speaker, and they will be finali zed, I expect, within the next week or two. MR. BLAKE: Back to my fi rst question, Mr. Speaker, could the Minis ter maybe advise when these applic a tions will be going forward to the muni cipal authorities. MR. AD AM: Mr . Speaker, I am hoping to have the program, all the parameters of it, and the conditions involved with the program should be available before 1581 the end of the month. MR. BLAKE: It's a good answer, Mr . Speaker. I have a quest ion for the Min ister of Industry and Com merce.

I wonder if she could inform the Ho use if she has had commun ication or meetings with Mani toba Pool Elevators in relation to the rebuilding of the Pool Livestock Yards in the City of Brandon. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Min ister of Eco nomic Developme nt. MRS . SMITH: Mr. Speaker, we have been in tele phone commun ication with them, but the Mini ster of Agricultur e is taking the lead on that. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Memb er for Fort Garry. MR. SHER MAN: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Honour able Min ister of Health.

I would ask him whether he has issued a proposal to the Mani toba Medical Association, either through his office or the Man itoba Health Services Commi ssion, to return to the bargai ning table on fee

schedule negotiations. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Mi nis ter of Health. HON. LAUREN T DESJAR DINS (St. Boniface): No, Mr. Speaker, I haven't been informed officially of the decision of the MMA. I haven't received anything; I've just read the paper and I don't intend to do anything until I receive an official notifica tion from them. MR. SHERMAN: Mr. Speaker, can the Honour able Minis ter advise the Hous e whether he is, in fact, pre pared to resume bargainin g on the fee

schedule inde pendent of the discussions with respect to the binding arbitration proposal, which seems to be the sub stance of news reports ema nati ng from the MM A meeting over the weekend? MR. DESJARDI NS: Mr . Speaker, I've always said that this is exactly what we wanted, to have in dependent bargaining, and then this first question of binding arbitr ation, but thi s is not the sole issue here now.

If the in formation that I receive from reading the news report, if they are going to go on some strike or partial strike, that's something else, and this is some thing we'll have to look at, but as I said earlier, I'd want to see what the official position is and I'll wait until I receive that from the MM A. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Min ister of Con su mer and Corporate Affairs. MR. KOSTYRA: Yes, Mr . Speaker, I received a ques tion about a week ago from the Hono urable Memb er for St.

Norb ert with respect to the gr ant to the Logan Commu nity Comm ittee, and I indicated at that tim e, I belie ve the additional grant was in the neighb ourhood of $1 7, 000, and I would endeavour to let him kn ow the exact amount of the gr ant and report that the grant is in the sum of $1 7,500.00. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Mem ber for in M

Monda y, 19 April, 1982 Sturgeon Creek. MR. JO HNSTON: Mr . Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Labour. Has the Minister of Labour had any discussion with the Honour able Feder al Minister of Emplo yment and Im migr ation, or with anybody that was a mem ber of the Comm ission tha t was put together to study ha ving an Aerospace Technolo gy Centre in the Pro vince of Man itoba? Has he had any discussion with any of those peo ple regar ding tha t centre com ing to Man itoba? MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Minister of Labour. MR. SCHROEDER: Yes, Mr. Speaker. MR. JOHNS TON: Mr .

Speaker, is the - and I appr e ciate the direct question and answer, Mr . Speaker. It's ver y refres hing to have tha t happen after so many months. Mr . Speaker, I wonder if the Minister after ha ving had th ose discussions with one or the other, and he migh t tell me which one, the-M inister or the gentlemen in char ge of the study, wha t the status is regard ing tha t Aeros pace Technolo gy Centr e being built in Manitoba. I mean a very large buildin g emplo y ing people and trai ning Manitobans and other people from all par ts of Canada. Is it com ing to Manitoba? MR. SCHROEDER: Mr .

Speaker, I would hope just as the honour able memb er does tha t it will come to Manitoba. I give any assurances but I can say tha t I have spoken with an individual from the group he refers to and I have spoken with the Minister with respect to the matter as wel l. As the honourable mem ber knows it is within the ar ea of the Federal Government to make tha t decision and, as the memb er knows, ther e are, unfor tunately, mem bers of the Fed eral Parl iam ent from other provinces who are also lobb ying and that is one of the facts of life. MR. JO HNS TON: Mr . Speaker, a final supplemen tary.

As the Minister is aware, the repor t clearly reco mm ended that come to Man itoba, and because of the Federal Que bec Caucus, it has been stopped because they feel it should go to Queb ec. Ha s the Minister made his feel ings very clear to the Minister of Manpower and Im migr ation, and even the Prime Min ister of Canada, if necessary, tha t should come to Manitoba as reco mm ended? MR. SCHROEDER : I have made it ver y clear to the Minister of Emp loyment; I have not made if clear to the Pri me Minister although we certainl y could do so. MR. SPEAKER: The Hono ur able Memb er for Lakeside. MR. ENNS: Mr .

Speaker, I direct a question to the Honour able Minister of Hig hways. My question to the Honourable Minister of Hig hways is why has he shelv ed and put aside all the reconstruc tion plans for Pro vincial Road No. 518 which runs by my ranch? MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Min ister of Highw ays. HON. SAM UEL USKIW (lac Du Bonnet): Mr. Speaker, I have to admit that I'm not aware tha t 518 runs by the former Minister's ra nch, and I'm also not sure why it's shelved, if it is shelved . I'd have to take tha t question as notice. COMMITTEE MEETINGS MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Government Ho use Leader. MR. PENNER: Mr .

Speaker, before I ask you to cal l the Business of the Ho use, the government business, I would lik e to rem ind mem bers that the Rules Com mittee will be meeting tomor row at 10 a.m. in Room 255; and tha t on Thur sday of this week the Comm ittee on Privi leges and Ele ctions will be meeting at 10 a.m. in Room 255. MR. SPEAKER: I thank the Honour able Govern ment House Leader. Does the Honour able Memb er for Vir den ha ve a point of order? MR. HARRY GRAHAM (Vird en): Could I ask a ques tion of the Honour able Govern ment House Leader with respect to the Rule s Comm ittee tomo rrow morn ing?

Will ther e by any people from the media who ar e charged with the respo nsibil ity for the television cov erage of the Chamb er: Wi ll they be at the Rules Comm ittee Meeting tomor row mor ning? MR. PENNER: I have no way of knowing, I don't know why the y'r e not her e today. Perhaps someone can tell us wher e the y'r e lost, or why they're lost, or for how long they will be lost. ORDERS OF THE DAY ADDRESSES FOR PAPERS 15 82 MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Memb er for Robli n-R ussell. MR. J. WALLY McKE NZIE (Roblin -Russ ell): Mr .

Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honour able Mem ber from Rhi neland: THAT an humble add ress be voted to Her Honour the Lieutenant-Gov ernor praying for copies of all cor respondenc e between the Minister responsible for Co-oper at ive Dev elop ment and MAN CO si nce Nov em ber 30, 1981 , pertaining to the possible sale of MAN CO surplus che ese stocks stored at MANCO plants in Manitoba. MOTION presented and carried. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Memb er for Robli n-Rus sel l. MR. McKENZIE: Thank you, Mr . Speaker.

I mo ve, seco nded by the Honour able Memb er for Rhi neland: THAT an humb le add ress be voted to Her Honour the Lieutenant-Governor of Manitoba pra ying for copies of all corre spondence between the Minister of Economic Development and MAN CO since Novem ber

- I I I I - Mond ay, 19 April, 19 82 30, 19 81 , pertaining to the possible sale of MANCO surplus cheese stocks stored at MANCO plants in Manitoba. . MOTION presented and carried. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Memb er for Robli n-Rus sell. MR. McKEN ZIE: Mr .

Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honour able Memb er for Minnedosa: THAT an humb le add ress be voted to Her Honou r the Lieutenant-Governor of Man itoba pra ying for copies of all corr espo ndence between the Minister of Agri cultur e and MANCO since November 30, 1981 , perta ining to the possible sale of MANCO surplus cheese stocks stored at MANCO plants in Manitoba. MOTION presented and carried. MR. PENNER: I was goi ng speak to tha t motion. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Member for Vi rden on a point of order? MR. GR AHAM: On a point of order.

If the honour able memb er wishes to speak to the motion it should be trans ferred for a debate. MR. PENNER: ... if you'd wait for it, I'm not opposing the motion, I just want to make it clear tha t with the other two I've had a chance to confer, Mr . Speaker, with the Ministers in question. The Minister for Agri cultur e is not in the House and I'm not in a position to make the same undertak ing with the Minister for Agricultur e not being in the Ho use.

I would simply like to say tha t it would to this side of the House be agreed subje ct only - well, the obvious condition of course, if ther e is any, but tha t need not hardly be said, but tha t if ther e is, it will be a question of whether any of it is privile ged but su bject only to that, we would agree on this side of the Ho use. MR. SPEAKER: If tha t matter is agreed to. ORDER FOR RETURN - NO. 8 MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Memb er for Virden' s Order for Return. MR. GR AHAM: Thank you , Mr. Speaker.

I beg to move, seconded by the Honour able Memb er for Tuxedo: THAT an order of the Ho use do issue for a ret urn sho wing the followin g informa tion, as of the date of accepta nce of the Or der:

(1) The location of each parcel of land owned by MACC for which one-year leases ha ve been issued for the year 1982.

(2) The names and add resses of each of the suc cessful bidders on each par cel where tender s ha ve been called.

(3) The names and add resses of each of the suc cessful lessees for each parcel wher e tenders ha ve not been cal led.

(4) The names and add resses of the high est bidder for each parcel wher e tenders have been called.

(5) A copy of the tender form used in each case.

(6) The amount of rent paid for each parcel (

a) wher e tenders have been called; and (

b) wher e tenders have not been called . MOTION pr esented and carried. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Government Hous e Leader. MR. PENNER: Accept the Or der. ADJO URNED DEBA TE - CROW RATE MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Government Hous e Leader. 15 83 MR. PENNER: Mr . Speaker, would you please call the adjou rned debate on the pr oposed motion of the Min ister for Tr anspor t standing in the name of the Mem ber for Roblin-R ussell? MR. SPEAKER: On the proposed reso lution of the Honour able Minister of Govern ment Services, stand ing in the name of the Honour able Memb er for Robli n-R ussell.

The Hon ourable Mem ber for Robli n-R ussell. MR. McKENZIE: Thank you. Mr . Speaker, I welcome the oppor tunity to make a contri bution to the reso lu tion put forth by the Highwa ys and Tr ansport Minister on a subject tha t is extr emely important and deser ves the fu ll attention of not only this Ho use but, I dar esay, every body across Canada. It's a subject, Mr. Speaker, that has ga ined the attention recently of the politi cal parties of this countr y mor eso than I would ha ve hoped.

I would have thought tha t maybe the farm com munity and the grain firms and tho se tha t are directly inter ested in the grai n industry, and the farmer s, could ha ve resolved that ma tter of the Cr ow, but it appears tha t now it has got into the pol itical arena, and once it's arrived in the political arena, I certainly feel sorr y for the Cr ow. Mr .

Speaker, ther e ar e rea ms and reams of words and docu mentation and paper s tha t have been put on the record of this country on this im portant subject matter, and it's a very difficult thing to debate because of the fact that the pla yers, th·e statistics, the econom ics and everythin g tha t's related to the Crow changes almo st on a daily basis from day to day. One only has to lo ok at the press release tha t came out in Satur day's Free Pr ess of the latest words of the Ch ief Con sultant, Dr.

Cla y Gilson, who is conducting those heari ngs in our great city and our gr eat province to indicate how things are changi ng, how the debate is changing, and the whole conception related to the Cr ow matter has come about. But, at least, Mr . Chair man, I am satisfied and I am sur e ever y member in our caucus is satisfied. If the Honour able Jean-Luc Pe pin, the Minister of Transpor t, wants this matter to be handled and hand led skillfully by some of the mor e learned people in the field of agricultur e in this province, he couldn't have picked a better person than Dr. Gilson, ably suppor ted by Dr .

Tyr chn iewicz as wel l, as I under-

Mon day, 19 Apri l, 198 2 stahd it, wtio is putting his contributions into the hear ings and aiding Dr. Gilson. As I said in my rem arks ear l ier in the debates in this Ho use, Mr. Speaker, and I questioned several Minis ters in this govern ment who ar e sitting across the room from us if, in fact, this !iJOVern me nt and other governm ents ac ross this country are not prepared to stand up and defy this double digit inflation that we face in this cou ntry, the Cr ow is meaningle ss.

The Cr ow is mean ingless, because if we can't possibly show mor e initiatives than we ha ve up to now in deal ing with double digit inflatio n and the high inter est rates that the farmer s are fa cing in this country today, I don't see that the farm industry will need a transpor tation system because they 'll lik ely be all out of busi ness.

It concerns me th.at mor e and mo re mem bers on the govern ment side ha ven't come out and shown us some of the positive indicator s that they ha ve in their Tr easury Benches, tha t they are prepared to stand up and attack inflat ion to hel p the grain industry, and to help the farmers in this mo st difficult pligh t tha t they ar e facing today. I have raised th at about thr ee or fo ur times in my contribution to this Chamber since the session started, Mr.

Speaker, and as I stand her e today, I don't ha ve anyth ing to as sure me tha t the government is, in fact, even look ing at infla tion beca use, as I've said, I raised the

article and the remarks of Mr. Lorne Hehn, the new Pr esident of the United Gr ain Gr owers, and he raised tha t subject matter in Ros sburn speaking at a dele gates' meeting and that, of course, concerns me. Mr. Speaker, I would think in our contri bution to this subject ma tter tha t the Ottawa propos al, as it has been placed befo re the fa rmer s in Wes tern Canada, is not accepta ble . It is not accept able and the reasons ar e ma ny. I don't think ver y very few, if any, in the west trust the Govern ment of Canada tha t's in Ottawa today - and why should we trust them with readjus t ing the Cr ow rate?

Because we only have to look back at the historic chain of events tha t has taken place in our great countr y in the la st year -a nd-a -half or two years to see what damage and sever e economic pr ob lems tha t govern ment in Ottawa ha s created for us in the west, and tha t, of course, includes the farmer s and the grain industry.

So why at this late hour would we as westerner s, or the farmer s espec ially in the whole farm industry, trust the Federal Govern ment when they come and lay pa pers on a table, cap in hand, and say, we're going to finally take a look at the Cr ow rate and try and hel p solv e the transpo rta tion problems tha t we have faced in this country.for decades. Mr.

Speaker, I'm wonderi ng about wher e the mem bers op posite sit with regard to the position that one of the great grain giants of our countr y, a farm ers' co-oper ative, the Un ited Gr ain Gr owers, the position tha t they ha ve taken on the ma tters of the Cr ow? I'm wonderi ng wher e the govern ment stands with rela tion to Wher e the Pool Ele vators, another farm co operative, tiuge mem ber ship in this province, wh ere they have taken the position tha t they have taken on the Cr ow? I'm wonderi ng, Mr.

Speaker, wher e the govern ment sta nds with regar d to the oil crushing ihdustry which is so dear and near to my constituency in Birtle-R ussell and the new crushing plant at Har rowby, and questions raised in the House the other day by myself and the Honour able Memb er for Mo rris indicate to me, Mr. Speaker, tha t this government has done little of any study on tha t subject matter. Mr.

Speaker, I'm wonderi ng about the full development of the Por t of Chur chill, and wha t plans tha t this gov ernment and the Ministers opposite have to add to the th rust of the former Minister of Agricultur e and tha t govern ment who had dohe so much to promo te and develop the Por t of Chur chill? So, Mr. Speaker, we welcome the oppor tunity her e wha t Dr. Gilson will bring in his repor t when he brings it in on May 31 st. I don't know wha t lik ely will be, although Saturday's edition of the Fr ee Press gives us some indication of wh at Dr.

Gils on may offer as a solution to it, but when he takes tha t reso lution back to Ottawa is when I get scar ed. And I ra ise my flag today and I tell_ the farmer s of Western Canada, and tell this Hous e: beware, beware, because tha t gov ern ment tha t's in Ottawa today has a reason to be good to us in Weste rn Canada . The reasdti§ are quite simple because we don't have any representation west of the City of Wi nnipeg. So, Mr. Speaker, on Februar y the 8th when the Minister of Transpor t, Mr.

Pepin, made a major polic y state ment on western ra il transpor tation on behalf of the Liberal government in this fa ir city, our capital city, to the effect tha t the government proposes sub stantial ly to alter an historic and statutory provision which affects not only the prod ucers of Canada, but the whole economy of Western Canada, the impl ica tions of tha t became ver y clear to me, and the y are enormo us. At the outset, I would say, Mr. Speaker, tha t we protest in the stron gest way possible the fact tha t the Minister came to make tha t announcement outside the House of Commo ns.

Why would the Min ister of Transpor t not make tha t statement in the Hous e of Com mons? Was he afra id of the questions tha t would be raised? Was he afraid of the de bate tha t would be raised by the mem bers of the Opp osition in Ottawa at the time, or what were the reaso ns, Mr. Speaker? Tha t is a matter of vital importance, not only to Weste rn Canada, to all Canada, the fact that the annou ncement wasn't made in Parl iament. I would have thought, Mr.

Speaker, tha t the Minister would have at least the common decency and common sense to sta nd in his pla ce in Parliament and make his announce ment and he would ha ve been available for questioning by the mem bers tha t were sitting in the House of Common s. So it ap pears to me, Mr. Speaker, tha t Parl iament and parl iamentar y comm ittees are going to be ignored in this process and this debate tha t is taking place with regard to th is important matter. It also ap pears to me as I stand before you today, Mr.

Speaker, in the next fo ur to five to six months, a back room deal will like ly be negotiated in private. I suspect tha t is lik ely wha t's going to happ en. The Parl iament will stand idly by wh ile a group appoi nted by the Minister, the Minis ter of Transpor t, strikes up a deal in camera, and I don't think tha t is a fa ir way to deal with the im por tant subject matter of the Cr ow because I do not ttiink tha t type of a fo rum can ably handle that kind of a ma tter, Mr. Speaker .

Of cour se, the Honour able Jean-Luc Pepin has told us and he's told the farmer s, if we don't lik e it or we don't agree - what did he say he was going to do? He said, Mr. Speaker, he is going to proceed unilater ally . 15 84

. - Mon day, 19 April, 1982 Now, tha t agai n, we should press the panic button and beco me most concerned when we hear a Minister from tha t government in Ottawa tel ling us tha t if we don't agree, if we don't line up, he's going to go unilat eral ly. In other words, the terms of the agreement will be im posed and the government will go ahead regard less of wha t I say here today or regar dless of whether the Minister had put this resol ution on the Order Paper or not or regardl ess of hundred of other thi ngs, Mr. Speaker. So, the manner then, Mr .

Speaker, in which it is being hand led agai n, as I point out, con cerns me greatly. Mr . Speaker , I would think surely tha t the Minister does not expect mem bers in the Hous e of Commons or, in fact, this Legislature to sta nd idly by in such a rubber stam ping process, and tha t is why I do con gratulate the Minister of Transpor t in this province for putting this reso lution on the Order Paper so tha t we can, each and ever y one of us, have a chance to make our contri bution and put it into the reco rd.

I suppose tha t you could say on the other hand, as some mem bers have said, tha t surely he does not expect the fa rmer s of Canada to accept may I say, wha t, a pig in a poke, such the manner in which this ma tter has been em barked upon, im posed upon. So, ther efore, I have two counts on this process on which the Minister has emba rked , two counts by which it should be rejected empha tically, Mr . Speaker.

First, it should be rejected because he has chosen to circumvent the parl iam entar y process which is so near and dear to this countr y, and ther eby denying the elected mem bers of Parl iame nt an oppor tunity to speak and to ha ve a say in wha t the Cr ow shou ld be. On the seco nd issue, Mr. Speaker, I would say tha t I beli eve that the pr ocess should be rejected because it denies the food prod ucers, the farmer s of this coun try, their legiti ma te right to be heard . Cer tainly, Dr. Gilson is holding heari ngs in this city, but I do not see how I, as a memb er of this Legislature, can be heard .

I do not see how the Mem ber for Pembina or the Mem ber for Mor ris can go down and ask to be heard at tha t fo rum and let their views and opinions be put on the recor d . Mr . Speaker, they cannot, and so I cannot emp hasize too strongly tha t the policy tha t is being imp lemented and will have a most profound effect on all the producer s of Canada is not bei ng done in a fa ir and square manne r. So ther e's natur ally tha t the farmer s and people lik e myself have fear, anxiety and apprehension because it could have been done another way. So I'm concerned secondly, Mr .

Speaker, because of the way the polic y is involving and how the legislation will be dr awn up and the fact that, as Mr . Pep in said, whether you lik e it or not, he is tak ing it back to Ottawa and we will be facing his views and opi nions in tha t man ner. So today, Mr . Speaker, as I stand before you, I certainly warn the Minister of Tra nsport tha t his actions and the way he is conduct ing this thing is only fuel ing mor e fires of suspicion, fir es of mistrust, tha t exist in Wes tern Canada today, and we certa inly have enough of them in Canada toda y with the actions of the Govern ment in Canada. Mr .

Speaker, I would lik e to deal briefly with the main ob jectives of the proposal tha t ha s been intro duced by Ottawa. First of all, Mr . Speaker, the pro posal to abandon the existing statutory freight rate. It comm its the government to a level of funding equal to 15 85 the 19 81 -82 ra ilroad-r evenue shor tfall, and it calls upon the producer s of Wes tern Canada to meet any future cost increases beyo nd the 19 81 -82 shor tfa ll in negotiations with the ra ilways. It is interesting to read Dr.

Gilson's, or the sum ma ry tha t was in Saturday's edition of The Free Pr ess on tha t subject matter, and I was wonderi ng, Mr . Speaker, as I said earl ier , wha t chance would produ cers ha ve to negotiate this rate with the rai l roads? Wha t chanc e would the Minister of Co-op Devel opment, of Municipal Affa irs, have to try and go and deal with the ra ilways on this subject matter? Wha t chance would I as an ord inary citizen have to go to deal with the ra ilways? It would be very, very difficult indeed, Mr . Speaker.

Large corpor ations in this country ha ve tried over the year s in an effor t to gain fai r freight rate and ha ve not succeeded. So tha t is a very serious weakne ss of the proposal that we have before us at this time, Mr . Speaker, with regards to the Cr ow. I ha ve heard people say, Mr. Speaker , tha t the y cannot accept a fr eight rate structure which will have a wide open-ended escala tion cla use tha t would result in increased char ge being put on the backs of the produc ers. Of course, ther e are opinions bei ng exp ressed all different ways on tha t subject matter, but I would say, Mr .

Speaker, I don't see how I, as the Mem ber for Robli n-Rus sell, can accept the removal of statutor y fr eight rate assurance unless I have all the cards on the table and know exact ly wha t we ar e going to get for the future of our great country and we are not going to get tha t, Mr . Speaker. I suppose, Mr. Speaker, th at would ha ve the effect of rel ieving the ra ilways of a continuing obli gation and shift it onto the backs of the producer s of western Canada and I cannot accept tha t in any way, shape or form. The proposal also, Mr.

Speake r, sets out to place a thick ceiling on fur ther Federal contri butions, and that would mean that the gov ernm ent would be relieved of any additional bur den over and above the 19 81 -82 shor tfall , while the produ cers would be bear ing the brunt of the inflation ar y costs or the cost increase tha t are associated with the movement of grai n, the ener gy costs, the taxa tion costs and all the other costs tha t go with the syste m, Mr . Speaker. The other interes ting thing, Mr.

Speaker, ther e is a sort of a rift in this ar gument between two Ministers of the Federal Government, Ha zen Argue and Pepin. That scar es me tha t her e we ha ve the Cr ow be ing pushed in this man ner, and·yet we know from evi dence tha t's al ready been publici zed and wor ds tha t have been spoken, that tho se two Ministers do not agree on the way tha t this should be handled.

So tha t alone should create enough uncerta inty in the minds of western farmer s and produ cers who are worr ying about this subject matter tha t even two Ministers tha t should be in a position to agree, they can't agree, and I am sure both those Ministers, Pep in and Argue, are watc hing the deba tes that are taking place across this country. I wonder where Mr . Whelan stands. Of cour se, he's not ver y popular at all in the eyes of the Prime Minister of this countr y today and I wonder where he stands at this time. It is very unclear as I stand here today, Mr . Speaker . But, Mr.

Speaker, when methods ar e be ing developed to establish a system of periodic reviews to prov ide rai l roads with adequate com pensation and, in

Monda y, 19 April, 1982 fact, to remove the statutory protection, I become alarmed. We must ask ourselves anothe r question, Mr. Speaker, wha t is the implic ation for the prod ucer s or what is the basis for calcu lating ra ilway reve nue shor tfall? And that subject now has been change d in the la st few days. New evidence, new informa tion has been brou ght forth to the comm ittee even that figure tha t was being band ied ar ound for the last several months, now tha t figure is in great question. We ha ve also heard com ments to the effect, Mr .

Speaker, th at any future increases to produ cers may be wel l tied to the increases in grain prices and tha t type of a senti ment seems to be expr essed in the com ments tha t Jack Fr ancis got from his interview. What are the implic ations, Mr . Speaker? We look at Snavely's last repor t and, of cour se, tha t's not accepted as I stand her e today. So I just say simply and bluntly tha t farmers should be ver y ver y awar e and very aler t as to wha t things are tak ing pla ce and wha t figures are being bandied ar ound in this deb ate. Mr.

Speaker, I would like to know· and I think pro ducers should know, must know, wha t the Minister had in mind when he asked Pr ofessor Gilson to con sider the appl ication of var iable freight rates. I would sure lik e to know wha t he had in the back of his mind when he thr ew tha t hooker into the debate. We should lik e to know, Mr. Speaker, and I certainly would like to know, how the government sees the subsidy being distributed; who is going to get it? I would like to also know, Mr .

Speaker, wha t the Minister would like to see in terms of how tha t 600 mill ion will be distri buted and, unfor tunately, we will not get tho se answers, I suppose, until Mr . Gilson brings in his report. I would also lik e to know, Mr . Speaker, wha t the Minister had in mind when he refe rred to the guaran teed mechanisms to assure adequate performance and capacity. Will it only be through legisla tion, or wha t are the y tal king about; or will it be through penalties or a performance bonus? What about investment guar antees, Mr . Speaker?

Tha t's a ques tion tha t has been raised with me many, many, many time s. Producer s of Canada, the farmer s, the No. 1 industry in this province, Mr. Speaker, needs assu rances tha t investment provi ded through the funding of the Federal Government goes into the beefing up of the ra ilway syste m rather than shopping centres and oil companie s and hotels, etc. etc. I would also lik e to know, Mr .

Speaker, wha t mechanisms the Feder al Minister has in mind to remove the existing freight rate anom alies, and. to provide sembl ance of parit y betwee n the processed and the unprocessed pro ducts, and I certainly ha ve a vested type of interest in answers to tha t because of the fact tha t the Man itoba Pool and Saskatc hewan Pool have seen fit to build the oil crush ing plant at Harr owby. I would lik e some knowledge or enlig htenment, Mr. Speaker, when the Minister talks about economic diversifica tion, I thi nk, is the way it was put.

How will economic diversifica tion help the farmers of this pro vince, the farmer s of Saskatc hewan or the farmer s of Al ber ta? Ther e is much at stake, Mr. Speaker, much to be left at the table of a negotiator even though Dr . Gilson has all the credibil ity and the integrity to deal with tho se thi ngs. Mr. Speaker, the enunciated polic y was extr emely vague in many areas and it is open to so many inter pretations which I am sure ever y member of this Chamb er is aware of.

You would think that it could have bee n mor e clarified and come out in a better form , so ther e would not be so many different ways tha t it could be interpr eted. I also, as I said earl ier, I would think we should insist in this Leg islatur e tha t Parl iament and its mem ber s should be active parti ci pants in the debate before this Cr ow is final ized. Th ere should be no doub t about it in my mind tha t the producer should be involved because they ar e the ones tha t are going to be directly affected. It's an issue, Mr .

Speaker, tha t's far greater than the simple freight rate adjustment that we ar e deba ting under the terms of this question. It stri kes right at the ver y fabric of the social and the economic lifesty le of every wes terner, every citizen of Weste rn Canada. The other point of cour se, Mr . Speaker, is tha t the western farmer s especially are in a very rebel lious mood as, may I say, at this par ticular time. Ther e's a feel ing of unhappi ness and vola til ity out ther e th at I haven't seen for some time.

It's going to be rat her interesting to see wha t come s out of the election tha t's ta king pla ce in our neighb oring province of Saskatc hewan because the Cr ow is certa inly an issue with the farmer s in tha t province. While it ma y be not the numb er one issue in their election campaig n, I'm sure tha t the y are going to exp ress their vola til ity and their rebel lious mo od in some form or other. The other thing, Mr .

Speaker, the move to dismantle the Cr ow's Nest Pass frieg ht rates is perceived by a lot of farmer s as yet another attack upon western Canada by the east and a further esca lation of the cl ima te of confronta tion tha t we have witnessed for the last sev eral years by the gover nment in the east and in Ottawa today. Tha t, of cour se, has created intense mistrust and suspicion amongs t nearly every westerner. We look back through the histor y of the grain transpor ta tion syste m, the mess tha t the grain transpor tation system was in when Cl arke's government took over for tho se few months.

I think we'd just come thr ough a year of a billion doll ar s loss worth of grain sale s because of br eakdowns in the transpor tation system and tha t govern ment certai nly by appoi nting a ra ilway co-o rdinator, they worked, I think, very closely with the rai lr oads and they prom ised some action on the Por t at Prince Ruper t. Action was taken and we were prornjsed some action on the branch lines in this pro vince and acr oss western Canada and branch lines were in fact preserved . At tha t time ther e was a reasonably positive mood existed among st - not a negative one such as we witnessed today.

In fact, some of our farmer friends even will go so far as to say tha t the mood tha t we ha ve experienced in western Canada is one of desper ation. 15 86 The other thing I'd lik e to question, Mr . Speaker, is the question of the man date. Does the Liberal Government, does the Tru deau govern ment, ha ve a mandate to abandon the Cr ow's Pass freight rates? Of cour se, it does not, Mr. Speaker.

The Li beral Govern ment not only fa iled to live up to his promis es to pro vide such things as cheap ener gy, energy self suf ficiency, low inter est rates -(I nterjection)- yes, double track, a wel l managed economy, jobs. Th ey prom ised adequate housi ng and a healthy agricultu ral clima te, but they failed, Mr . Speaker, in my opinion

I • Monday, 19 Apri l, 198 2 to tel l Canadians wha t they intended to do. For exam ple, they didn't tel l Canadians dur ing the election cam paign tha t they were going to em bark upon a policy of confronta tion which is liter ally tear ing the country apar t with the way the y handle d the Constitution. They didn't tel l the people of Canada that the y were going to spend the fi rst 18 months of tha t govern ment's reign deba ting and rai ling and rant ing about a Constitution while the economy of this country colla psed.

We, today, face the highest unem ployment tha t this country has ever seen and the most difficult economic problems tha t Canad ians have ever experienced. They didn't tel l the Canadians in tha t election campai gn they were going to bring in tha t devasta ting national ener gy pol icy, Mr . Speaker, which has torn the hear t out of western Canada and impl emented taxes unbelievable on western Canada. Mr . Speaker, the y didn't tell Canadians tha t the y were going to tax them to the hilt during tha t election cam paign, directly or indirectly, and liter ally double the price of energy.

They didn't tell Canadians in the time of tha t campaign they were going to destroy OREE. At lea st, I never hear d it, Mr . Speaker , or destroy the pr ivate sector which they have so skill fully done. The y didn't tel l western Canad ians the y were going to dis mantle 20 percent of Via Rail or tha t they were going in fact to abandon the Cr ow's Nest rates, Mr . Speaker. So, Mr .

Speaker, I ask the mem bers of this Assembly and I ask the mem bers in Parliament if, in fact, whether the Liberal Par ty would ha ve obt ai ned it's manda te from the Canadian people if they'd told the truth. -(I nterjection)- no, Sir , never, Mr . Speaker , no never they certainly wouldn't. Many of the se cru cial policie s, Mr. Speaker, tha t I have just espoused affect western Canada where ther e are no elected Liberal memb er s west of the City of Wi nnipeg toda y and tho se are the ones tha t it's hurting as I stand her e. So, Mr .

Speaker, is it any wonder tha t this mistrust or alie nation or suspicion resides out amon gst our people today and this de bate certainly hasn't hel ped to alle viate it. We ll, Mr . Speaker, wha t is the Liber al pol icy? Ha s anybody got knowledge of wha t the pol icy is? The Liberal policy, Mr . Speaker, on the Cr ow, as indicated in the Liberal manual as late as 19 80, -(I nterjection)- Wel l, read it. If you read the Liberal manual as of 19 80, Mr . Speaker, you wou ld find tha t the y were comm itted to preserving statutor y freight rates spelled out loud and clear.

As late as July the 4t h, I th ink it was, to 6th, 1980 at tha t great Liberal par ty conventi on, it was stated emp hatically to the peop le of Canada that the Liberal party again reaf firmed its determ ination to preser ve the statutory Cr ow rate. Mr. Speaker, I turn now to our mem bers opp osite in the New Demoncr atic Par ty. The Federal NDP Par ty say they want to reta in the status quo, yet the y want on the other hand the impl ementations of Hall. The y want them appr oved. You can't have it both ways, Mr . Speaker, I don't see how the y can. If the Hall recom mendations ar e imp leme nted, Mr .

Speaker, that's not status quo; tha t's quite a change. I would say the NDP should n't ar gue tha t, because they should be saying the y'r e in favo ur of ma ybe other change, I don't know. The y offer a sort of a pana cea, the Federal ND P, into improving the syste m; they tal k about national izing the CNR. I ha ve hear d tha t espoused at some great length but somehow, Mr . Speaker, the y seem to be mor e inter ested in pursuing a sort of philosophical objective than im proving the grain transpor tation system. So, quite frankly, Mr .

Speaker , to national ize the ra ilroad would have cost bill ions of dolla rs. Billi ons a11d bill ions of dolla rs and wha t would tha t do for the grain industry? We'd still ha ve to go and build the trac ks. We'd still have to go and put the system in shape and it wouldn't move one additional bushel of grain, Mr . Speaker. The Minister of Transpor t in Saska tchewan, as well, he says he doesn't want any change, but he is advo cating change by recommending tha t we follo w the Cr ow reco mmen dations. MacM urchy too, he wants to buy a ra ilroad, Mr . Speaker, and Mr .

Thatcher, the Pr emier of Saskatchewan - read some of the words tha t he said on the subject matter over the years. So, Mr . Speaker, it's difficult. Premier Bl akene y favour s a statutory rate but not necessarily the Crow, as I read him. He says he's prepar ed to negotiate a future cost increase as long as the prod ucers keep the benefit of the Cr ow. Then he signed a document some few weeks ago, Mr . Speaker, saying tha t he's no t pre pared to accept any change. So how, Mr .

Speaker , can the NDP actually be taken seri ously when the y say the y'r e going to fight, but when the crunch come s, the y mer ely appendage to the Liberal Government office. In fact who, Mr . Speaker , put the Liberals back in power at tha t time? Who were the ones that put them in and gave them the autho rity to come back with this nasty change in the Cr ow rate, Mr . Speaker? It certai nly wasn't us, Mr . Speaker . So, Mr . Speaker, but when the chips are down, the NDP fall in line with the hopes of the Liberal Par ty.

A party, of course, which as I said earl ier occu pies the Tr easury Bench but which is ban krup ting this cou ntry and Trudeau would n't be ther e today were it not be for the suppor ters of the New Democr atic Par ty. The y and they alone are the ones that put him in office; the y ar e the ones tha t gave him the author ity and the power to decima te this country. So I say to you, Mr. Speaker today tha t if this coun try is in a mess today, the NDP Par ty must shar e the blame. The y must shar e the blame. I say to you as well today, Mr .

Speaker, tha t if farmer s of Cana da lose their statutory rights, they must blame the NDP as well as the Liber als because the NDP ar e the ones that put them in office in Ottawa: MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Minister of Munici pal Affair s. MR. ADAM: Thank you , Mr . Speaker. It's a plea sure to take par t in this very very crucial and important deba te tha t we ha ve on the Order Paper toda y; that is, debati ng the reso lution to mai ntain the Cr ow rate for the benefit of the farmer s of Manitoba and, of course, Western Canada as wel l. 15 87 Mr .

Speaker, ther e have been many questions that we've listened to. Two speak ers now, I bel ieve, from the mem bers of the Opposition and we still don't kno w wher e they stand. We don't know wha t their intentions are insofar as suppor ting or opposi ng the reso lution tha t is before us, Mr. Speaker. It's an enigma; we don't know wha t's happen ing out ther e.

Mon day, 19 April, 1982 It's a myste ry, Mr. Speaker. -(I nterjection) - We've listened to the Mem ber for Lakeside and he made a beautiful, flower y speech and we could not detect, after he was through with his com ments, whether he was going to support the reso lution or oppose it. We have just been subjected to another speaker from the Opp osition, the Memb er for Robl in-R ussell and we ar e still at a loss to determ ine wher e the Op po sition is going to go on this particular question, Mr . Speaker.

The y speak of retaining the benefit; the Cr ow benefit for the farmer s of this province in West ern Canada, but at the same time they would like the ra ilways to be com pensated . They want the ra ilways to be com pensated fully for the movement of grain but, Mr . Speaker, tha t is exactly the position of the Federal Liber als and the mor e we hear mem ber s opposite speak, we see tha t it's not the NOP and the Liber als tha t ar e in bed, but on the Cr ow rate issue, it is the Liberals and the Conser vatives tha t ar e in bed together. If you will look, Mr .

Speaker, at the literat ure tha t the Conser vat ive Par ty in the Pro vince of Sas katc hewan is passing out at this par ticular time - because ther e's an election over there - you will find tha t their position is almo st identical. The y don't say it, Mr . Speaker, they just hold back on one or two words, but it is almo st identical to the position of the Liberal Par ty in Ottawa. Mr .

Speaker, we are still at a loss and we'd lik e to know; I was not her e on Thu rsday or Frida y, because I made an on- sight inspection of the fire at Br andon, both on Thur sday and Friday and ther e may ha ve been some debate in the House at tha t par ticular time tha t I missed. Ther e may have been some speaker s, I do not know, but neverthele ss wha t I ha ve heard is tha t we don't know wher e they stand. We still don't know wher e they stand, Mr . Speaker . Th ere ha ve been many who question the position.

Ther e ar e many who question my own position, for insta nce, and that of the National Farmer s' Union, and have been mo st adamant in not wanting to negotia te the change of the Cr ow. Th ey've been ver y adamant about tha t and, Mr . Speaker, if you sit down to nego tiate, the moment tha t you sit down, you are alr eady admitting tha t you want to see a change. The position of the Farmer s' Union ha s been tha t they say it is not negotiable. It is not negotiable because to enter into discussion would be contrad ictor y to tha t principle and it's understandable.

Now I've heard the Mem ber for Roblin first of all say, you know, her e are the Pools, the y speak for the farmer s, they talk for the farmer s out ther e, the y are the farmer s. The Memb er for Rob lin is ther e in his seat - and later on he said that he was criticizing the Pep in group and the Federal Gov ernment for not going out and tal king to the fa rmer s, to allo w them to ha ve a chance to speak and there's a contradiction if you have one, Mr . Speaker .

In the first insta nce, he indicates tha t her e you ha ve the Pool s speak ing for all the farmer s and later on he says, we want the farmer s to have a chance to say some th ing. Wel l, you know you can't ha ve it both ways. I say to the Memb er for Robli n-R ussell, you cannot ha ve it both ways. Either the Pools represent the farmer s or else the farm er s represent themselv es and they should be the ones tha t are speaking because ther e is a silent majority out ther e, Mr . Speaker.

I would say to you tha t there are a vast majority of the farmers today who belong to the Pool who are op posed to any change in the Cr ow rate. Never thele ss, the Pools ar e on record of wanting to sit down and negotiate. I don't bel ieve tha t is the po sition of the ma jor ity of the farmer s out ther e because they fear the unknown; they don't know what's out ther e, wha t is waiting for them, but now we are receivi ng mor e informa tion as time goes by. We can see the handwriti ng on the wal l for the farmer s if the Cr ow goes, Mr .

Speaker, and that is why the Farmer s' Uni on have taken a leader ship on tha t position and ha ve been criticized by mem bers opposite, and many other groups out ther e have been criticizing the National Farmer s' Union for not want ing to bar gain the trad itional rights of the farmer s of this province and the farmer s of western Canada. I think Mr . Gibbings, the Comm issioner on the Wheat Board, had even put tha t in better context, Mr . Speaker, when he said that he would not itttend the day of infamy in Man itoba, Feb ruar y the 8th, when Mr . Pepin made his annou ncement.

Februar y the 8th, 19 82, that was the day of infamy for the farmer s of Man itoba and Mr . Gibbing said he would not go to tha t press conference tha t Mr . Pep in when he had it in Winnip eg her e on Februar y the 8th and her e is wha t he said. He said, he refused an invitation to attend last week's news conference at which Transpor t Minister, Jean-Luc Pe pin, annou nced tha t the sta tutor y Cr owsnest Pass rates will go up; I wouldn' t go because if you volu ntari ly go to be raped, then it's consent. He told about 200 cheeri ng farmer s at the Wheat Board's district meeting, Mr . Speaker.

He didn't say it in those words, but tha t is the position of the National Farmer s' Un ion. The moment you sit down you know wha t you are going to get. So, I ask mem bers opposite, wher e do you stand? We don't know yet. We know tha t the former Minister of Ag ri cultur e who sat in this chair , I belie ve, when he was on this side of the House issued press rel eases to say, yes, they wanted a change in the Cr ow rate and the y wanted to still benefit, the Cr ow benefit, tha t was the word , to be retained for the farmer s. 15 88 Mr.

Speaker, we know and they know and eve ry body else knows tha t the Cr ow benefit is going to last for a year or two and after tha t it is going to be - (I nterjection) - even the next year. The fi rst year, the Federal Minister has indicated tha t he would be wil ling to put the shor tfall, which is presumably $61 2 mil lion; he would put in that much money to pick up the Cr ow gap. Tha t is the Cr ow gap; he is pr epar ed to do tha t up to 19 85. -(I nterjection)- Tha t is not wha t the repor t said and the memb er who just spoke before me said tha t wasn't the case. Mr .

Speaker, tha t is the sleeper ther e because in 1980 there was 12 8 mil lion bushels of grain deliv ered out of Manitoba. At the Cr ow rate it cost $1 2.3 milli on to move out. Now, six times Cr ow, which has been the figure tha t has been bou nced ar ound over the years, at six times Cr ow it would ha ve been $74 mil lion tha t farmer s would have had to pay to transpor t their grainm an increased cost of $64 milli on, Mr . Speaker. Tha t is the Cr ow gap; tha t is the shor tfall between the Cr ow rate which is 12 .3 and the $64 mil lion shor tfall for the compen sator y rate, so th at is the shor tfall, Mr .

Speaker, and that is wha t Mr . Pep in is prepar ed to put up, so he says. Mr. Speaker, the mem ber who spoke before me said

- I • • Mon day, 19 Apr il, 198 2 he didn 't trust him over ther e and I want to say tha t I don't trust him either . I trust the Cr ow rate because I know wha t we ha ve. I know wha t benefits the farmer s ar e receiving under tha t legislation. The sleeper is that next year - and these are 1980 figures - but after the new agreement is put in pla ce we will want to negotiate with the ra ilways the infla tionar y costs and that will be based, not on 12.3 but on $74 milli on, so tha t will be, wha tever that is, 15 percent inflationar y costs, so we tack on 15 percent of 74 mill ion.

The next year, what would that be? eaout $10 mill ion, $1 2 milli on in infla tionary costs, so next year you will be negotiating again with the rai lways for $84 mill ion, 15 percent on $84 mill ion. Then we'll be nego tiating with the farmer s how much the y want to pick up of the infla tio nary costs, year after year after year after year, Mr . Speaker. It does not take ver y long, Mr . Speaker, and you do not have to be an Ei nstein to figure out wha t is hanging on the end of the noses of the Man itoba farmer s under tha t kind of a situation. By 1990 or the year 2000, Mr.

Speaker, you will be lo oking at $2, $3 a bushel to transpor t grain out of the Pr ovince of Man itoba and right across for the western farmer s as wel l. Mr. Speaker, these are the rea sons why we, on this side, say tha t the Cr ow must remain; it should not be tam pered with. If ther e are problems out there, if ther e ar e problems as far as transpor tation, we ha ve to find oth er solutions to those proble ms. We have to find other solutions and not on the backs of the farmer s because, Mr . Speaker , it would make no difference whatsoever if you never ship one bushel of grain to the coast.

They would still ha ve to upgrade tho se rai lways. They ar e unable to handle the increased tr affic tha t will be ta king place in regards to other com moditie s; commod ities tha t seem to now ha ve a higher prior ity, Mr. Speaker, and tha t is the vast amou nts of coal and potash and other commoditie s tha t will be transpor ted to the west coast and sure, it will be a benefit to Canada, I suppose. It will benefit pr imari ly British Colum bia. To a much lesser degree, it will benefit Al berta.

It certainly will be of ver y little benefit to the Pro vince of Saska tchew an; it wil l be of no benefit to the Pr ovince of Manitoba. In fact, it will be a disaster for the Pro vince of Saska tchewan and it will be a disaster for the Pr ovince of Manitoba. So, we say tha t the Cr ow is not a negotiable item. It must be kept and we must find other ways of impr ov ing our transpor tation system in Canada if we want to have an impr oved system to the west coast.

We do have sufficient rol ling stock and sufficient trackage to mo ve grain to Thu nder Bay, to the head of the la kes, and tha t is where the majority of the grain from Sas katchewan and Manitoba moves to is to the eastern poi nts and as wel l, we would want to try and see mor e grain movi ng out of the Por t of Chur chill. That is very essential. Mr .

Speaker, the Honourable Memb er for Robl in Russell mentio ned about the CSP Foods, the Rape seed Plant at Ha rroby, and he mentioned tha t ther e was a problem - I'm not sure whether he said it in those words and I'm only par aphr asing - but he said tha t they had to have parity. Now, I don't know wha t he meant by parity, whether he wants parity for the raw product and the processed product and tha t he is going to achieve tha t by getting rid of the Cr ow.

We were unable to find out just what the member is saying when he ma kes those statesments, but I want to say tha t I bel ieve that the CSP Foods, when they met with Mr . Gi lson, tha t th ey did not ask tha t the Cr ow rate be abandoned. They asked for parity, right. They are not necessari ly sayi ng, well, you get rid of the Cr ow and we ar e going to have parit y because the y know tha t may not happen, Mr . Speaker and the y ar e not sure of the other ra mif ications of losing the Cr ow. Will the y have parity as far as processed oilseed go and the raw prod uct, the rapeseed ?

Will they have parit y ther e or will the price of rapeseed drop? Tha t is the question; those are unanswered questions, because of the Cr ow rate being - Do they know what's going to happen in Eastern Canada, Mr. Speaker? Mr . Pepin is al ready on record as saying tha t rem ov ing of the Cr ow rate if it has any detri me ntal impact on the crushing industry in the east and the livestock industry, tha t he would subsidize tho se industries. So, that brings the crushing industry in Manitoba back to square one. We are still in a noncom petitive position.

If the y are going to subsidize the eastern crush ers and, by the way, one of the ma jor crusher s of rape seed in Ontario is owned by Maple Leaf Mill ing, which is in tur n owned by none other than the CP Invest ments, Mr. Speaker. So, you start getting the scenario, star t getting the puzzle back into pla ce, Mr . Speaker. Wha t is happen ing? You find tha t Pau l Desmarais of the Power Cor pora tion, who is a very, ver y friendly adviser to the Federal Cabi net; this is a long standing rela tionsh ip that Mr . Pau l Desmarais has had with people like Mr . Pep in and Mr. Trudeau and the Cabine t ther e.

In fact, Mr. Desmarais is recognized as an advisor to Cabine t. -(I nterjection)- Mr. Speaker, we find tha t the Power Corpor ation is the lar gest shar eholder in CP. Now, the puzzle falls into pla ce. You 've got a big jigsaw puzzle; you find the little separ ate pieces and you just slip them in to wher e they are supposed to go. We also hear tha t, not too long ago, Mr. Pepin was a director on the Board of Power Co rpora tion. Now I'm not try ing to impute motives, Mr . Speaker, but surely you will say tha t I ha ve a right to be somewha t suspicous.

I have a right; ther e are grounds there to have some suspicion. I see the Memb er for For t Garr y nodding his head in appr oval, Mr . Speaker. 15 89 Wha t does all this mean? We have hear d another outspoken person, the ver y person tha t I have had a lot of admir ation for and he was the former president of the Un ited Gr ain Gr ower s, great man. I ha ve al ways had a lot of ad mir ation for him, but you know, he has been an outspoken person, outspoken voice, against the Cr ow rate. He said tha t the Cr ow had to go. Mr .

Speaker, we find that the former president of the Uni ted Gr ain Growers is also a directo r on the CP Board. Mr . Speaker , the puzzle is almo st comple te; ther e are no mor e pieces. They are all fal ling into place. We find wha t is happen ing, the scenario is becoming cle arer and clearer. I wonder if the honour able mem bers opp osite want to risk the destiny of the farmer s of Man itoba to try and lock horns with tha t group, Mr . Speaker, and tha t scenario tha t we see happen ing and tha t has happ ened and that is continu ing to happen.

We suggest that you should not; we suggest tha t the cost is too great to the Pr ovince of Man itoba.

Mond ay, 19 Apri l, 19 82 The Honour able Member for Roblin says wha t is going to happen to the Por t of Chur ch ill? We ll, Mr. Speaker, I can tell you wha t is going to happen to the Por t of Chur chill if we do not have equal rates for equal distance. If we lose th at we know wha t is going to happen to Chur chill; it is not going to be ther e very long, Mr . Speaker, it will be gone. And tha t alone, Mr. Speaker. even just tha t one item alone, tha t one issue, is enough to say, leave the Cr ow alone. When Mr .

Pep in says, the Cr ow must go, I say Pepi n must go; he Is the one tha t I want to see go. -(l nterjection) - Mr. Speaker, the honourable memb er says, why did we put him ther e? Mr . Speaker, we did not put him ther e, it was the Cons ervatives that put him there because they couldn't even run a Parl iament; they don't know even how to run the Parl iament. They calle d a crucial vote when they knew didn't have the majo rity in the Hous e, Mr . Speaker. Mr . Speaker, they never even walked over to ask the five Social Cr edit mem bers wher e the y stoo d. No w, Mr .

Speaker, they have the nerve to say tha t it is the NOP tha t joined the Liber als to put them out of business;·the y never even walk ed over to make a deal with the Social Cr edits which ar e ver y clo se to the Con servat ive Par ty in the first place. I ha ve never been able to tell the difference between the two and I don't think anybody else has, as far as par ty is concerned. But you know, Mr . Roper ts, who is the Assistant to Mr . Pepin says in an arti cle tha t I read her e just rece ntly tha t if the rates go thr ee times Cr ow the farmer should be happ y, tha t is a bar gain for them. Mr .

Speaker, I ob ject to tha t because I know tha t we ar e not tal king about thr ee times Cr ow her e; we are tal king ten times Cr ow. Tha t is wha t we ar e tal king about by 1990 maybe or the year 2000, we are tal king about ten times Cr ow and maybe 13 , Mr . Speaker. So let not the Memb er for Morris be del uded and say, oh wel l, you know, they are going to char ge me 25 cents a bushel and I can absorb that or else maybe 50 cents a bushel. Let him not be deluded by tha t because what we are tal king her e is $2 a bushel, not th ree times Cr ow. We are tal king about ten ti mes Cr ow, 13 times Cr ow.

The sleeper in this whole issue, of cour se, is the the guar antee of $61 2 mill ion which is under question. The Man itoba Pool has questioned tho se Snavely fig ures ver y, very critically and the fact is that the Snavely repor t never took into acco unt the cost of cars. So. Mr . Speaker, after we have had a change in the rate and we ar e going to have four times Crow, or wha tever the rate is, then the ra ilways can come back and say, well listen, you never took into account tha t we ha ve to buy cars.

We don't ha ve any money to buy car s under the Cr ow rate, tha t was never figured into the Snavely repor t so now we want to have money to buy cars. Getting back for a moment to the crush ing industry, Al berta and Saskatchewan subsidize the car s for the crush ing industry. Now, when I met with the CPS Foods her e and the Honour able Minister of Economic Developme nt, it was br ought to our atte ntions, Mr . Speaker, and we said tha t we would have to review that question whether the financial capabilities of the Pr ovince of Man itoba are able to buy car s for the industry.

Tha t is someth ing tha t we will ha ve to look at, I'm sure but, neverthele ss, despite the fact that the Man itoba Pool has questioned these figures very seriously - the Snavely repor t was questioned very seriously by the Man itoba Pool - neverthele ss Mr . Pe pin says tha t he is going to accept those figures anyway, regardle ss. Whether they are right or wrong, he is going to accept them anyway. So this is wha t we have facing us. Mr .

Speaker, when you consider the fact that the ra ilway in the first pla ce, when it was cons tructed, when we had the ra ilways with govern ment help pla ced across Canada, it was never intended that they would be a profita ble organiza tion; tha t was never the intention of a ra il road . The reason for havi ng a rai lway was to provide service and to open up the country and to make sure tha t ther e was transpor tation to take out the raw materials and to bring in man ufactured goods.

Tha t was the idea and it was very soon recog nized that it would not be pos sible for the ra ilways to make a profit, so The Railw ay Act was amende d , Mr . Speaker , to allo w the CPR to diver sify into other ar eas of endeavo ur because it was recog nized, even in the early year s, the first year, the second year after the ra ilway was built the y were right back to the govern ment and saying, look, we can't make money on th is, we can't make a profit.

So they said, wel l, all right, we will allo w you to branch out in other endeavours; you can go into mining; we will all ow you to go into coal; we will allo w you to go into port facilities; we will allo w you to go into hotels; we will allow you to go into many, many other ar eas of endeav our and tha t was to compe nsate for the losses that the y were taking on the rai lways, Mr . Speaker and that holds still, today. The reason why CP Investments ha ve been able to build the lar gest conglomer ate in Canada was because of the amend ments of the Act.

It recognized tha t you can't make a profit transpor ting goods, so they allo wed them to br anch out and when it came the time to build stations for the CPR and the CPR came back to the government and said, look, we need a station her e becaus e ther e are a few people he re tha t are now home stead ing here. We've got to ha ve a station her e and then we have got to have another station over her e, but he said, you know, we don't have the mone y to build the se stations.

So the governmen t said, wel l, we'll gi ve you $5,0 00 each for each station tha t you construct and the y gave a grant to the CPR to con struct the stations, but they charged the $5, 000 per stations on the debt of the CNR and that debt is still there. When the CNR goes in every year to ask for a rate increase to cover their costs the costs are still based on the $800 mill ions tha t they have got in deb t from many, many years ago and the CPR jus t sits back ther e and they just have to have a free ride on wha t the CN is doing, Mr .

Speaker. 15 90 Tha t is the situation tha t faces us today, but the crunch is whether we want to see our farmer s go down the drain here and our small rural businesses along with it in the rural areas of this province. That is the crunch and tha t's· wher e you separ ate the men from the boys in this House, Mr . Speaker, and I want to know wher e they stand. We want to know wher e the y stand because we want to know wher e we sta nd and the farmers out ther e tha t we are tal king for and speaking for toda y want to know where they stand, too.

So, I will be look ing forward to see whether the y are going to support this reso lution or vote agai nst it.

Mon day, 19 Apr il, 19 82 MR. DEPU TY SPEAKER Jerry T. Storie (Flin Flon): The Honour able Mem ber for Niakwa. MR. ABE KOV NATS (Ni akw a): Thank you, Mr . Speaker . I beg to move, seconded by the Honour able Mem ber for Assiniboia, tha t debate be adj ourned. MOTI ON presented and carr ied . MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honour able House Leader. MR. DESJAR DINS: Mr . Speaker, I'd lik e to move, seco nded by the Honour able Minister of Natural Resou rces, tha t Mr . Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself in a Comm ittee to con sider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty.

MOTION pr esented and carr ied and the Hous e reso lved itself into a Comm ittee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty with the Honour able Memb er for Flin Flon in the Chair for the Depar t ment of Health; and the Honour able Memb er for River East in the Chair for the Depar tment of Economic Development and Tourism. CONCU RRENT COMMITTEES OF SU PPLY SU PPLY - ECONOMIC DEV ELO PMENT AND TOU RISM MR. CHAIRMAN, Phil Eyler (R iver East): The Com mittee will come to or der. We are on Item 1.( b)

(1) Executive Salaries. The Mem ber for Sturgeon Cr eek. MR. J. FRANK JOHNS TON (Sturgeon Creek): Mr . Chair man, I said on Frida y tha t we would move off this very quickly. I just ha ve a couple of brie f com ments to make on the subject tha t I was on. It was regard ing Alcan.

I just wonder ed if the Minister was awar e tha t Alc an had studied the tax situation tha t IMC had used in Saskatc hewan, in tha t IMC had a system of distri buting the tax base from the plant thr ougho ut the several municipali ties that would be suppor tive of the refiner y, and natur al ly the tax base from tha t plant would be ver y exte nsive to do a lot of the infrast ruc tur e work tha t wo uld be req uir ed for those mu nicipal ities.

Als o, I would say tha t the Minister has mentioned in an ar ticle, and I think she did during the Estima tes, tha t the percolator effect of the previous govern ment was wor king from the top down and the y are going to work from the bottom up. I firmly belie ve that the Minister will have to consider the small business in Manit oba, which she says they want to have deve lop ed first, desper ate ly requires some thing to build on.

The programs tha t were being lo oked at by the pre vious govern ment, would as I said $3 billi on, the Potas h, the Alcan Refi nery, the Power Grid, which would lead to the extension of the construction of the power plan ts along the Nelson, all of tha t would be at least a 25-year project if we were able to ha ve those la rge industries locate in Manitob a, and which would lead to at least 25-years construction along the Nelson. 15 91 So, I bel ieve tha t small business has to have a base to build on in Man itoba.

They will be able to go after the Al berta business and the Saskatchewan business tha t's ther e, but I can see no rea son why the y should n't have the opportunity to be buildin g their businesses on projects tha t are happ ening in Mani toba wher e we can have a lot of say as to wh ere the purcha sing goes, and that the equipment and ever y thing tha t they will have to buy will lead them into being able to quote on other businesses and I've stated that before. We ha ve never been all tha t successful in getting business out of Ontari o.

The man ufacturers of Onta rio are capable of supplying their big projects. The reas on for the smal l business in Ontario is because they have had the oppor tunity to be suppl iers to large corpor ations tha t ha ve invested in Ontario and I think the same thing should happen in Manitoba. I would say to the Minister that th ose consider ations while looking at the new projects should be first and upperm ost in the minds of this government. MR. CHAIRMAN: Madame Minister. MRS. SMITH: Mr .

Chai rper son, I thank the honour able mem ber for raising the question of tax base dis tribution throu ghout several mu nicipal ities. We are aware of tha t possibil ity. In fact, we've discussed a pr oposal from rep resentatives of the affected munici pal ities, at least tho se who would be affected by the curr ent Alc an site and I think it's a good principle. With regar d to the appr oach to Ec onomic Devel opmen t, I belie ve that our government is in favo ur of both small business bottom up developme nt and megapr ojects, provided ther e is net benefit to the people of the province.

I don't bel ieve we have said we are agai nst megapr ojects. We are for a studied and plan ned appr oach to their devel opment and tha t would include building in the Man itoba purcha se, so I thi nk the areas of disagreement ar e nar row. The y have regard to the necessary home work and plan ning to be done by the public author ity befor e moving into the propo sed megapr ojects, not a reject ion of meg ap rojects per se. I would suggest, Mr . Chai rper son, tha t we have had fairly lengthy discussion, tha t we mo ve into the line by-l ine discussion. MR. JOHNS TON: No problem.

I had said I just had tho se few comm ents to make. I would ask a question on the Salar y item that we're on. I notice tha t ther e is an increase and there were five staff of the Minister's office previously and two in the Dep uty Minister's office for a total of seve n. I ima gine the increase is because of the executive assistant; I didn't have a person specified as such. Is that the reason? MRS . SM ITH: Mr . Chai rper son, I don't ha ve the numb ers tha t you are loo king at. MR. JOH NSTO N: I'm look ing at my la st year's numb ers tha t I have; I don't have this year's number s.

Ther e wer e seven before and I noticed th ere is an increase by appr oxima tely 30 percent from 217 to 28 1. I was just questioning what the increase is.

Mon day, 19 April, 19 82 MRS. SMITH: Mr . Chai rper son, on the adj usted vote, thr ee persons had in fact been added to the Minister 's office and wha t we ar e recommending is no change in that numb er. MR. JOHNSTON: We ll, then it is now 10, is it? MRS. SMITH: Yes. MR. JOH NSTO N: The executive office, the special advisor to the Minister, Mr. Ber gman, I wonder if the Minister could give us a reas on why Mr . Berg man was let go. MRS. SMITH: Mr.

Chai rper son, it is customar y for the special assistant to the Minister to be a person who is sym pathetic with the political and economic appr oach of the govern ment in power and tha t was the bas is for the change. MR. JOHNSTON: Mr . Chai rman, it was not custom ary in that position during our time. Mr . Berg man had previously worked for thr ee different govern ments or th ree different pol itical parties in his positions with the Provi ncial Govern ment. Mr . Ber gman, I don't ever think was ther e to be an adviser to the Minister as far as I was concerned.

From the point of view of pol itics he was a tremend ous am bass ador who knew ever ybody in Man itoba, certainl y with the Man itoba Cham bers and many small business people in Man itoba becaus e of his experience previous to being with the govern ment and after he came with the government and was an excep tionally good person to be able to go out and dig down to the bottom of any problems tha t migh t be out ther e and be able to advise the Minister on them.

I was asked if the change tha t has been made - and I know the person that has taken his position does have a sym pathy to the present par ty, he's the vice president of the NOP par ty and as a matter of fact was a candidate who ran agai nst myself - but I would hope that the replac ement of Mr . Berg man is such tha t you have the continuity with the Cham ber s of Comm erce thr oughout the province and the small business tha t he had because he was able to be cal led on at any time to go out and work very hard to solve any problem and advise the Minister. MRS. SM ITH: Mr .

Chai rper son, I respect the fact that each Minister has different needs and views the office and thei r advisor y needs in a different ligh t. I think tha t's quite appr opria te. I respect that the previous Minister cho se to give highest prio rity to the ro le tha t he had Mr . Ber gman play. I choose to give high prior ity to someone who's philo sphy and eco nomic appr oach I'm in sym pathy with and my par ty. I find this touches on an issue tha t I raised in my inaugur al speech in the House and that is, there seems to be a bel ief among many Conser vatives tha t they see the world the way the world is,

whereas NDP 's see it through an ideologic al or philo sophical bias. I made the point then and I bel ieve in it ver y strongly that both appr oache s are legitimate. The y are hone stly held by group s of people tha t it's not im proper for an elected Minister to seek help from someone who shar es and under stands the general philo sophy and economic th rust to the par ty. I chose to appoi nt as senior pol icy adviser, a person in whom I had confide nce.

I find tha t the rela tionsh ip with the communi ty is one that is an im portant one and I personally have been mor e than happ y and active in going personally to meet Cham ber s of Comm erce, small town groups, small business peo ple. Not only that, I have had a steady procession of rep resentatives of tho se groups visiting me in my office and I intend to continue with tha t open-door pol icy to the extent time and energy permit. So, in my case I chose to give high prior ity to the type of consultant tha t I have appoi nted and it is with no disrespect to Mr . Ber gman.

I think he did a very able job in a field tha t he had a lot of experience and backing and I respect him for tha t. I cho se to make a different appointment and I feel tha t I made a wise appointme nt for my needs. MR. JOHNSTON: Then ther e was a special assistant before and ther e is an addition of th ree staff and as I mentioned, I bel ieve, the Minister has an exec utive assistant which was not ther e before. Who are the other two or what are the other two? MRS. SM ITH: Mr.

Chai rper son, the previous Minister had fil led the position of administrative officer and an ADM, and it's now to be officially the ADM of Strateg ic Pla nning. The other , the position of executive assist ant was vacant and we have filled it. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1. ( b) (1) -pass; 1. (b ) (2 ) Other Expen ditures-pass; 1. (c)

(1) Finance and Ad ministra tion: Salarie s-pass; 1. (c)

(2) Other Exp enditures pass; 1.( d)

(1) Economic Research and Analysis: Sa lar ies - the Memb er for Stu rgeon Creek. MR. JOHNS TO N: Mr . Chairman, I am very aware of wha t this group does. They are excep tionally good at their jobs, I migh t add. I just want to ask the Minister, th ere was work bei ng done on what was cal led the Manitoba Ten-Year Econom ic Review. I would wonder if tha t is continuing to be done because the statistics were, I believe, just about finished and ther e was work bei ng done on the writing for the Ten-Year Economic Review. Is th at be ing continued and if it is, when can we ex pect it? 15 92 MRS. SMITH: Mr .

Chai rper son, yes, tha t very val ua ble work is just about comple te. The final ap proval should occur the first week in May. It will take a few days to check the data and it will then go to the pri nter and it should be available in printed form by mid-J une. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1.( d)

(1) Salarie s-pass; 1. (d)

(2) Other Expen ditures-pass; 1.( e)

(1) Manitoba Bureau of Statistics: Salar ies - the Memb er for Sturgeon Creek. MR. JOHNS TO N: Ther e is not much of an increase in this depar tment, Mr . Chair man, but the Minister out lined in her opening remarks tha t the Bureau of Statis tics would be tak ing a mor e active role and I believe she said, an active role in the - I'm not sure whether it was gathering of statistics and in the statistics required for the strateg ic plan ning and ma ybe I ha ven't got tha t

- Monday, 19 April, 19 82 right - but I would ask the Minister if she could just very brie fly outl ine tha t new ro le. Also, is it the inten tion of the Manit oba Bureau of Statistics to star t put ting out a quarterly repor t as they did previously? MRS. SMIT H: Yes, Mr . Chair person, the Economic Accou nts Pr oject is continuing in co-oper ation with Finance Depar tment, so tha t it did not repr esent a great financial load on our depar tment.

The question of using the availa ble resources in an effective way is one that we intend to take seriously and we will be setting prior ities for the work done by this group. We are interested, in terms of expan ding the data availa ble, to secure mo re distri butive data, not just aggre gate data. Tha t is, to see if we can find out the im pact of programs on different groups in the com munity with a little mo re sensitivity. It may be we will find this kind of data colle ction is not with in our means this year, in which case we will make a tighter plan and include a proposal for that in the foll owing year.

MR. JOHNS TON: Will the y continue to work closely with the sour cing programs as far as gatheri ng statis tics for tho se programs from a point of view of what will be required on large projects in western Canada? MRS. SMIT H: Mr . Chai rper son, a simple answer to that is yes, we will be including our sourcing data base to include non-man ufacturing firms, commencing with the industrial services. Tha t is repair, mai nte nance, custom welding and ma chining and we will be including the western projects requir em ents. MR. CHAI RM AN: 1. ( e) (1) -pass; 1. (e )

(2) Other Expend itures-pass; 1.( f)

(1) Man itoba Hor se Raci ng Commi ssion Gr ant Assistance - The Memb er for Sturgeon Cr eek. MR. JOHNS TON: This has been increased , Mr . Chai rman. It is very obvious why it has been increased. I know the ver y detailed technical ities tha t have to go on befor e this figur e is arrived at with the estima tes of horse racing days, purses, etc. , and of cour se the new annou ncement that ther e would be an extr a five per cent on the tri actors.

The br eakdown, as the Minister knows, of the 7.5 went to the province and the hor se racing industry, but is it the intent to give the extra 5 percent in tri actor s all to the hor se ra cing industry, and wha t will the percentages then work out to be from the point of view of the bre akdown of the 7.5 on all ra cing and the extra 5 percent on the triactors? MRS. SM ITH: Mr . Chai rper son, as you know The Pari mutuel Tax Act is bei ng changed in order to per mit the larger takeout. The Tax Act, itself, does not designate the purpose of the mo ney other than for industry developme nt.

The new Comm ission ha ve been meeting with the groups affected and getting them to work out, in co-opera tion to the extent the y can, a consensus as to wha t their joint needs on the industry are.

I have been informed this mor ning tha t they are very clo se to a decision tha t ther e has been a high degree of consensus ach ieved, if not 100 per cent, and tha t the other aspect of the process has bee n tha t the groups involved have been most appr e ciative of the oppor tunity which the y say the y haven' t really had for a long time if ever, some are sayi ng, to sit down together with the Comm ission and take the time to go through their different needs and then to understand one another 's needs, so that the recom menda tion they can then make to the Comm ission bears with it much mor e mutual understanding and sort of devel oped a spirit of co-oper ation among them.

I feel it augurs wel l for the effectiveness of the new Comm ission and I will leave it to them to make the actual announcement of the division of the tax. They will, of cour se, consult with me to ensure tha t it has my appr oval, but I ex pect tha t I will be able to suppor t the solution tha t the y arriv e at. 15 93 MR. CHAI RM AN: The hour bei ng 4:30 p.m., I am interrup ting the proceed ings for Priva te Mem be rs' Hour. Comm ittee rise CON CU RRE NT COMMITTEES OF SU PPL V SUPPL V -HEAL TH MR. CHAI RM AN, Jerry T. Storie (Flin Flon) : The Com mittee will come to order.

I would direct the mem bers' attention to Page 71 , consideri ng the Esti mates of the De partment of Heal th, Item No. 1 , Execu tive Function 1. (a) (1), Minister's Salar y. The Honour able Minister of Health. MR. DESJAR DI NS: Mr . Chairman, befor e I introduce the Depar tment of Health Esti ma tes for 1982-83, I should like to say how deeply in debt I am to the dedicated peo ple who work with me. When I resumed this office in Decem ber, I saw many fam iliar faces as well as some new ones.

I ha ve found them as a group much as they ha ve al ways been, a body of men and women devoted to ra ising the standard of health car e in Man itoba. No Minister and no government could be better served than by people comm itted to an ideal. I wish to single out for par ticular tri bute one of the mo st deeply comm itted, my Dep uty Minister, Mr. Reg Edwards. During the past five months he has been a stro ng and steady support.

As Executiv e Direc tor of the Man itoba He alth Servi ces Comm ission, a position he still holds, he bring a com passionate mind and val uable admin istrative experience to a com plex department. Manit obans ar e for tunate indeed to ha ve such a person as thei r Deputy Minister of Health. I wish also to acknowledge with thanks the help given to me by Dr. Geor ge Joh nson who has held this office before me and who is respo nsible for the intro duction of many of the successful programs still in place.

I am thank ful that he has acce pted to remain with the department and to conti nue to contri bute his wide knowledge and experience as medical consultant. I should l'ike to take this oppor tunity to exp ress my gratitude to my personal staff. They are com petent and industrious; they are loyal to me and to the department and I wish to thank them most warmly for thei r help and faithfu l service. I must also exp ress thanks to all the health car e professionals and volunt eers who serve the health needs of Man itobans outside govern ment in our ho s pitals, perso nal car e home s, universities, commun ity -

Monda y, 19 April, 19 82 agencies and organ izations. I know, Mr . Chairman, tha t the y ar e men and women of courage and com mitment and I want them to be assured tha t we need and appr eciate every one of them. I should also lik e to take this oppor tunity to thank the Opposition Health critic, the Honour able Memb er for For t Gar ry. During the debate on the Speech from the Throne, he made a memor able speech devoted mainly to our Health Service which was under his direction dur ing the previous ad ministra tion. II was a fine speech and I welcome it as much for its form as for its content.

It was sincere and hone st and it raised many provocative issues about the future of health care in Canada. I want him to know, Mr . Chairman, th at I take him at his word. I want the help he so generously offered. In the year s ahead I must add ress many of the provocative issues to which he referred and I will welcome his ideas and his constructive criticism. To be of real va lue to the people he serves, a Health Minister must depend on critic s who se con cern for the general good can transcend political gain.

The honour able memb er said in the speech tha t he hoped I returned to this office to find the Depar tment of Health in good shape, good spir it and rea sonable comf ort. I should lik e to assu re him on tha t score. I find mys elf in agr eement with a numb er of programs advanced during his term as Minister and this is par for the cour se because many of them had been either initiated or pla ced on the drawi ng boar d during the Sch reyer ad ministra tion. Some of the se programs will progress without mar ked change.

If we have to change the shap e of others, we will do so with a minimum of discomfor t and no loss of spirit. Our goal, Mr . Chai rman, is better health for all Man itobans. We will do wha t we have to do to achie ve tha t goal. The Memb er for For t Ga rry dwelled at some length on wha t he descri bed as om issions from the Th rone Speech. I assure him tha t he need not ha ve any fear tha t the questions he raised will go unans wered for lack of attention or fa ilur e of ener gy.

Our atte ntion has been sharpened by the deficiency we have uncover ed; our energy has increased because we have found so much work to be done. One of the questions the honour able mem ber asked in his speech was, where is the recog nition of the long-r ange plan ning capab ility on which we were star ting? I'm gla d he asked th is; it is an important question. It is, in fact, one of the first questions I asked my self when I assumed office. Our health syste m has become so comple x and so costly that no Health Minister can function adequately without long-term planning.

So wher e, I asked myself, was the lon g-term planning capabil ity the previous Minister had so often mentioned? Wher e were the plann ers? I could not find them, Mr. Chai rman, but I assu re you and I assure the honour able memb er that they will soon be functioning. We have set aside over $2 mil lion for new programs and for the exp ansion of the existing programs. In cluded in this amount is a substa ntial amount for the expansion of health pla nning, including new staff man years and a trans fer of existing staff man year s to this ar ea of high prio rity.

Our plan group will identify health prioritie s, formu late appr opriate polic ies, goals and strateg ies for achie ving the se goals, both im me- diate and lo ng-range. They will also commenc e a syste matic rev iew of existing programs to ensur e tha t Manitobans are continuing to receive effective servi ces at a rea sonable cost. We ar e not marking time, Mr . Chai rman.

We are going to infuse new strength into the best of our old ideas, adding 42 staff man year s to the department's compleme nt; 27 of which will be all ocated to our Com munity Health Division for direct field services for public health nursing, home care and mental health services. We ar e aware, Mr . Chairman, tha t if we are to suc cessfull y defend Medicare agai nst rising costs, we must concentr ate a larger shar e of our lim ited resour ces on pla nning preventive measu res acco mpanied by health promo tions.

For this reaso n, we will seek an additional $400 ,000 for our Co mmuni ty Health Servi ces Division and an extra $35,0 00 for health promo tion activities. The total expen diture for 1980-83 for which we seek appr oval is to be $91 3 milli on. This represents an increase over 1981 -82 of $18 8 mil lion or 26 percent. In any event th is, Mr . Chair man, is a stag gering sum. The Honour able Memb er for For t Ga rry re minded us last month, tha t some critics feel tha t we cannot afford Medicare as it was originally conceived. My reply, Mr .

Chai rman, is that we cannot afford to let our health programs deterior ate because of under fund ing. A healthy popula tion is our most precious natur al resour ce; on it depends everything else. This gov ernme nt intends to provide not only the health facili ties and resou rces needed by our popula tion to res tore health, but also the personal incentives tha t help to maintai n the kind of productive good health every one needs and wants.

I would also be asking for appr oval of funds to estab lish a rur al Audiolo gical Centr e in the Interlake area; the last one of the rur al regions to be provided with a modern heari ng centre. Our plan is to ulti mately pro vide such hearing centres in Winnip eg as wel l, and the first of these centres will, in fact, be establ ished in this coming year. We will ask for funds to provide for electronic tech nical service to colla bor ate and repair heari ng equip ment and to exte nd a Luther Control Centr e Program for the profou ndly deaf to offer service to perso ns in rur al Man itoba.

Other medical public health services included in our Budget include a medical consultant to estab lish the pro vincial protocol on home oxygen ther apy, additional support for our Venereal Disease Prog ram, additional funds to comp lete pilot projects of comp uter-a ssisted immuni zation mon itori ng, a program to offer nutrition education to Native famil ies. A promi nent pla ce is being reserved in my depar t ment for strengthen ing the Conti nuing Car e Pr o gram. We rec ognize home car e as the logical alterna tive to expensiv e institutional car e.

Inde ed we recognized this back in 19 74 when the previous NOP administration star ted their Home Care Program, which has since become a model for all Canada. We intend to continue strengthening because we can foresee increa sing demands for this service. For exam ple, we are requesting funds for equipment and staff to expand the Home Oxygen Prog ram to rural Manitoba. We also recognize the need to plan car e fully and to involv e strat egies to enrich and support the lives of our increasing elderly population. Since a 15 94

-- Monda y, 19 April, 19 82 major propor tion of home care is for the elderly, this grou p will serve our plans to increase the numb ers of regional home care and nursing staff, but this is only the beginning of our plans for the elderly.

Our long range planning group will review all present programs for senior citizens and will advise us on such matters as the training of professional in geriatrics and geron tology, the expan sion of day hospitals, adult day care and respite care, provision of enriche d housing for senior citizens and other ma tters of importance to the welfar e of the socially significant segment of the popula tion. In conform ity with our election prom ise, the Mani toba Health Servi ces Commis sion Estima tes will include provi sion to subsidize eyeg lasses for the elderly.

Simil ar pro visions will be included in the next two to th ree years to provide assistance to the elderly in the areas of heari ng aids and dental services. Agai n, in conform ity with our election promis es, we will take steps this year to expand childr en's dental services. I will elabor ate in this in greater detai l, Mr . Chair man, when the item in question is being debated as a supplement to the Estima tes.

For our Me ntal Health Division, we will be asking for funds for additional staff to meet the health needs of geriatric patients, as wel l as increase staff for both Brandon and Sel kir k Mental Health Centr es. In our Capit al Budget, tha t is the government's Capital Budget, we will be asked for $3.3 mill ion to impr ove facilities at both the se centres. As I said earlie r, Mr . Chair man, the over all budget of the Health Depar tment is up by $1 88 mill ion over last year's $725 milli on or 26 percent.

The programs of the Alcoholism Fo undation of Manitoba have increased in cost by $1 milli on or by 16 percent. The balance of Health Department Programs are up nearly $12 mil lion or 18 percent. The Estima tes of the Man itoba Health Servi ces Comm ission, which com prised the major por tion of the depar tment spending, are up by $1 75 milli on or 27 percent. We should not forget, Mr . Chair man. that we inherit ed a $44 million deficit of Man itoba Health Services Comm ission's spending from the previous administration.

Ho wever, even afte r adjusting for this substantial shor tfall, we are project ing increased spending for Manitoba Health Servi ces Com mission of 19 percent. Mr . Chair man, I will announce the details of the Man itoba Health Services Comm ission Cap ital Pr o gram when dealing with tha t particular line in the Estimate rev iew. The program will not only take into acco unt the legitima te req uirem ents of the residents of Man itoba, but will be pha sed in, in such a way as to provide stimulu s to the construction industry, bearing in mind the abil ity of the pro vince to fund cons truc tion pr ojects.

I should also like to mention some new and expanded programs to be funded by Man itoba Health Services Comm ission, during the upcom ing year. The out-pa tient obstetrical screening services at the Health Science Center in St. Boniface Gener al Hospital are to be expanded to pr ovide ser vice to rural communi ties. Diagno stic ultrasound, which will include continued upgrading at the two tea ching hospitals and new ser vices at the Grace, Da uphin and the Pas hospitals.

At present we maint ain ambula tor y electrocard iography 15 95 mon itoring services cal led Halt er and Monitori ng at the two teaching hospitals in Winnip eg. During 19 82- 83, we pro pose to decentralize the service by prov id ing it at five hospital locations. Surgical intensive car e unit at the Health Science Centr e will be renova ted and expanded to enhance post-operative manage ment of high risk surgical patients. During 1982-83, we will further expand the provin cial dialysis program operated from the Health Science Centr e in the St. Boniface Hospital .

The expansion will apply to both in-patients services and own dialy sis services. Physiother apy staff will be increased at Brandon and Wi nnipeg hospitals to acco mmo date a growing numb er of out-patients. Dur ing 1982-83, Manitoba's card io-va scular surgery capacit y will be expanded to meet the need for increased open hear t surgery. The expansion will be based on the findings of a rev iew comm ittee tha t will be repor ting to me, shor tly. We are also repla cing major items of hosp ital equipment including rad iologic al equipment. We will upgrade and expand nuclear medicine equipment.

These items, provided for in our Estima tes, are expec ted to cost in excess of $7.5 mill ion. Include d in the Esti mates of the Man itoba Health Service s Comm ission, is a general increase of 1 3 per cent of the Municipal Ambu lance Gr ants Pr ogram to help municip alitie s provide this necessary service. Also included in the Estima tes, are funds for the City of Winnip eg to assist them in im plementi ng pro posed impr ove ments to their Emer gency Health Response Syste m. Th ese funds will be appl ied towar d the costs of upgrading staff training as par t of their impr ovement progr am.

Pr ojected spending for the Nor thern Patient Transpor tation Service has been increased by $685, 000 or mor e than 40 percent. This governme nt, through this and other programs, is comm itted to ensuring tha t northern residents benefit from sta ndards of trea tment comparable to th ose offe red in the mor e populous south. In conclusion, Mr . Chai rman, I think it is plain from the fo regoing remarks as it will be from the deta iled Estima tes, tha t we are supporting a wide range of complex services.

These services are designed, not only to provide medical and institutional support for the sick and the troubled, but to keep people free from the avoidable bur den of disease. We prop ose to plan care full y and to keep or sights fixed on the futur e. We know tha t this will take pol itical comm itments, co oper ation from ever yone in the health field as well as every consumer of health care, concerned action from individuals and groups in and out of govern ment and ab ove all appr opria te choices. The ultimate test of our strategy is the impr ovement of healtti.

We do not see this as mer e pious hope; we ar e convi nced we are em barked on a winning battle. Mr . Chairman, I would lik e to thank the mem bers of the comm ittee. I tried to provide the Health Cr itic for the Op position with different informa tion that I think would be help ful to him, such as the staff man year and the different agencies that we deal with. Mr . Chairman, I'd like to pose a challe nge to the mem bers of this comm ittee without tryi ng to force any thing and it might be some thing that will pro ve difficult to the Health Critic for the Op position and to

Mon day, 19 April, 19 82 myself, but I wonder if we could show the example of as much as possible, if we could try to refr ain from smoking during the debate of these Estima tes. It is someth ing that I th ink tha t we should a little bit to show tha t we ar e concerned and maybe that'll help expedite the -(I nterjection)- Wel l, I will do tha t for myself and if it works I'll tell you. So, Mr . Chairman, I would like to

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	32-1-36a
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	32nd 1st hansardpdf 36a.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	9dac8ddacf3556bfa5652927893141c7e1e4d7ef

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