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April 13, 2000

37th Parliament, 1st Session

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Hansard Transcripts

Votes and Proceedings

Orders and Notices

Hansard Transcript 2000-Apr-13 (PDF)

Thu 13 Apr 2000 / Jeu 13 avr 2000

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY ASSEMBLÉE LÉGISLATIVE

OF ONTARIO DE L’ONTARIO

Thursday 13 April 2000 Jeudi 13 avril 2000

PRIVATE MEMBERS’ PUBLIC BUSINESS

ONTARIO REALTY CORPORATION CLEAN UP ACT, 2000 loi de 2000 sur l’assainissement de la Société immobilière de l’ontario

CANADA HEALTH AND SOCIAL TRANSFER

ONTARIO REALTY CORPORATION CLEAN UP ACT, 2000 loi de 2000 sur l’assainissement de la Société immobilière de l’ontario

CANADA HEALTH AND SOCIAL TRANSFER

ONTARIO REALTY CORPORATION CLEAN UP ACT, 2000 loi de 2000 sur l’assainissement de la Société immobilière de l’ontario

WEARING OF RIBBONS

MEMBERS’ STATEMENTS

LOW WATER LEVELS

BAISAKHI

PROPERTY TAXATION

EPILEPSY ONTARIO

ONTARIO WHOLE FARM RELIEF PROGRAM

DAVID HEAD

VOLUNTEERS

W.F. HERMAN SECONDARY SCHOOL

TAXATION

visitors

INTRODUCTION OF BILLS

DIRECT DEMOCRACY THROUGH MUNICIPAL REFERENDUMS ACT, 2000 LOI DE 2000 SUR LA DÉMOCRATIE DIRECTE PAR VOIE DE RÉFÉRENDUM MUNICIPAL

REDEEMER UNIVERSITY COLLEGE ACT, 2000

MOTIONS

PRIVATE MEMBERS’ PUBLIC BUSINESS

STATEMENTS BY THE MINISTRY AND RESPONSES

MUNICIPAL REFERENDUMS

ORAL QUESTIONS

HIGHWAY 407

NURSING HOMES

PLUTONIUM TRANSPORT

IMPAIRED DRIVERS

APPRENTICESHIP TRAINING

TRUCKING INDUSTRY

INVESTMENT IN SIMCOE COUNTY

PROPERTY TAXATION

MUNICIPAL RESTRUCTURING

AIR QUALITY

PUBLIC TRANSPORTATION

PENETANGUISHENE CORRECTIONAL FACILITY

BOYS’ HOME WORKERS

USE OF QUESTION PERIOD

PETITIONS

DEVELOPMENTALLY DISABLED

AFFORDABLE HOUSING

MATRIMONIAL HOME

illegal timber cutting

HEALTH CARE FUNDING

OAK RIDGES MORAINE

OCCUPATIONAL HEALTH AND SAFETY

HIGHWAY SAFETY

OCCUPATIONAL HEALTH AND SAFETY

OAK RIDGES MORAINE

KARLA HOMOLKA

ORDERS OF THE DAY

PARENTAL RESPONSIBILITY ACT, 2000 LOI DE 2000 SUR LA RESPONSABILITÉ PARENTALE

The House met at 1000.

Prayers.

PRIVATE MEMBERS’ PUBLIC BUSINESS

ONTARIO REALTY CORPORATION CLEAN UP ACT, 2000 loi de 2000 sur l’assainissement de la Société immobilière de l’ontario

Mr Agostino moved second reading of the following bill:

Bill 56,

An Act to amend the Capital Investment Plan Act, 1993 to ensure that the Ontario Realty Corporation awards contracts in a fair and public way / Projet de loi 56, Loi modifiant la Loi de 1993 sur le plan d’investissement pour veiller à ce que la Société immobilière de l’Ontario accorde des contrats de façon équitable et transparente.

Mr Dominic Agostino (Hamilton East): Ontario Liberals believe in open, honest and accountable government. That is why we are introducing this bill today. This bill, if passed by this Legislature, would go a long way toward cleaning up the problems, difficulties, and what I believe are scandals that are occurring at the Ontario Realty Corp.

As we know, currently the Ontario Provincial Police are investigating a number of questionable deals made by the Ontario Realty Corp. It is a government agency that controls $5 billion worth of government real estate and has overseen the sale of more than $200 million worth of government land and buildings this year.

The facts are clear. In one deal, a developer agreed to put a deposit of $250,000. After paying $1.27 million for the industrial land, it was flipped six days after the closure of the deal for almost $4 million. In another deal, in Mississauga, property was sold last March for $2 million by the government of Ontario and resold seven months later for more than $4 million.

We know there is a court action on a warehouse on Eastern Avenue, which was sold for $5 million, where the property was appraised at $10 million. We know there is a lawsuit in civil litigation with regard to the Keg Mansion property on Jarvis Street, where clearly the influence of Tory backroom operators has caused a great deal of difficulty for the Ontario Realty Corp, for the people of Ontario and for the taxpayers.

The minister speaks about open and transparent processes at the Ontario Realty Corp. Maybe he can tell us why there are deals that are signed which have a clause that prohibits, after the signing of a deal—let’s just think about this for a second. This is public property, owned by the taxpayers of Ontario, paid for by the taxpayers of Ontario. After one of these deals is signed, the Ontario Realty Corp puts a clause in the contract that does not allow public disclosure of the amount of money paid for that property. Just think about this for a second.

What rationale could there be for a clause that would not allow public disclosure on the amount of money paid in a contract for a publicly owned piece of property? I challenge all of you. This is not a private real estate club. This is not the Albany Club operating with the cognac and the cigars. This is the taxpayers’ money we’re dealing with.

This bill will go a long way toward protecting the taxpayers of Ontario.

Let me just go through some of the items. First of all, currently the Ontario Realty Corp allows lobbyists to be involved in the process. Why would there be lobbyists involved, people paid by developers to be available and allowed to try to influence Ontario Realty Corp decisions? Why should there be lobbyists involved in those deals? It’s pretty simple: You put it up for sale and you take the highest bid. It’s that simple: the highest bid. Lobbyists don’t have a role in this. Lobbyists should not have a role in this. There is absolutely no role for lobbyists in the Ontario Realty Corp.

This bill would ban any lobbyist to be involved in any negotiations for sale of property with the Ontario Realty Corp.

This bill would make the process transparent, as well by requiring, within 10 days of sale, the successful bid and also the unsuccessful bids to be posted publicly, as well as two independent appraised values of the property. That makes it very transparent. Everyone can see what the property was appraised for, everyone can see what the property was sold for, and everyone else can see what other bids were there.

Interjections.

Mr Agostino: I realize my friends are getting testy because this is getting too close to home for many of you across the floor. I understand you are getting a little sensitive because as we continue to develop this story and as we continue to develop the role of Tory friends and developers and fundraisers in all of this, this is starting to fall apart around this government. Clearly, they’re not interested in fixing up and cleaning up the ORC. They’re just interested to ensure that their friends’ pockets continue to get lined. This is what this is all about, and this is what is happening at the Ontario Realty Corp today.

Another clause of the contract is an anti-flip clause. It would prohibit the flipping of property for one year from the day the deal was closed. That type of provision would have avoided many of the situations that are there today. It is important. We have a responsibility to ensure the taxpayers have the best deal. If there’s money to be made on a piece of property, that money should go to the taxpayers of Ontario. It is government-owned land. It is owned by the people of this province, and they should benefit from any sale, not the private sector. The 12-month clause would go a long way toward helping that.

We also would ask for two independent appraisals. We have appraisals after the deal had been closed, one appraisal sometimes, an appraisal done eight months or a year before a deal. We would require two appraisals minimum on every property that is up for sale. We would ensure there are checks and balances in the system, and the appraisals would be totally independent of the Ontario Realty Corp. If we really are sincere about ensuring that this is an open and transparent process, I believe the steps outlined in this bill would go a long way toward doing that.

We are talking about a corporation that is right now embroiled in scandals, a corporation that does not have the trust of the people of Ontario, a corporation that has police investigations and has lawsuits everywhere you look. We hear the government say: “We’re cleaning this up. We’re here to clean it up.” The reality is that this government has had five years to clean up the Ontario Realty Corp. They have been in power since 1995. They like to blame previous governments for everything. This is a blame government. It doesn’t matter what issue; it’s someone else’s fault.

The reality is, you’ve had five years to fix up whatever problems may have been at the ORC. We’ve had a minister who has been there for more than two and a half years. We have a president handpicked by the minister. We know the minister personally fired the previous president because he didn’t go along with his agenda at the ORC. We’ve seen evidence clearly of that. We have seen political interference at the ORC; we have seen lobbyist interference at the ORC.

I think the mandate is simple: to get the best value for taxpayers. It is a very simple mandate. It shouldn’t be that complicated, so why do we need lobbyists? Why do we need someone lobbying on behalf of a developer to overturn a decision or to change a decision or to influence a decision when it comes to real estate deals? I wish someone could explain that, but that’s allowed today and that is causing some of the difficulties.

We have to restore the confidence of the public. We’re talking about a lot of money here. We’re talking about a lot of property. We’re talking about up to $5 billion worth of government real estate. This is not coffee money; this is significant money to the taxpayers of Ontario.

The government today has a choice. They can sit here and pretend everything is fine and there are no problems. They can sit here and say, “We’re cleaning it up and it’s someone else’s problem.” The reality is that it is your problem. You’re the government of the day. If the government is sincere about sending out a very positive message as to cleaning up the mess at the ORC, I think you would support the legislation that is in front of us. I think you’re going to send out a very clear signal today about how sincere you are and how intent you are on cleaning up this mess.

Very clearly the public confidence that has eroded must be restored in the ORC. Taxpayers of Ontario must believe that every time a piece of property owned by the taxpayers is put up for sale, they’re going to get the best value for that piece of property.

You pride yourself in being great business types in running government: “We’re going to run government like a business.” But I can tell you, if a business were run the same way here, you’d be demanding their heads if you were running that business. Clearly, you see these deals that went wrong, you’ve seen these deals that have gone bad, and we’ve seen nothing. We say to the government: Freeze land sales. Here you’ve got a police investigation, you’ve got a massive audit, you’ve got forensic audits, but it’s business as usual at the ORC. The least this government can do is freeze all land sales at the ORC until its investigation is complete, until the audit is complete.

I urge all members to take a close look at the bill. I believe, if we’re all interested in the same goal here, and that’s cleaning up the Ontario Realty Corp and making sure the taxpayers are well served, this bill would go a tremendous way toward doing that. However, if you believe it’s business as usual, if you believe everything is fine, if you believe there are no problems, obviously you’ll vote against this bill. So it will be a clear test of this government’s sincerity.

My caucus is fully behind this bill. My caucus is going to continue to bring forward the ORC as an issue in this House. I hope this government today takes the opportunity to be part of the solution rather than part of the problem.

Mr Tony Martin (Sault Ste Marie): I rise today to support the initiative by the member from Hamilton, who just spoke regarding his resolution,

An Act to amend the Capital Investment Plan Act, 1993 to ensure that the Ontario Realty Corporation awards contracts in a fair and public way. I stand as well to raise this issue to a level to go much further than this. I think there’s a full and public inquiry required here. This is an arm of government that is totally and completely out of control, driven not by the public interest, not by the common good but by a lust for power, a lust for money, driven by greed and avarice, things we in Ontario don’t think should be driving any of the public agenda of this province.

Over the last number of months we’ve seen movement of personnel in the realty corporation, getting rid of a leader who was taking us down a path that was initiated by our government, which would have established an arm’s-length relationship between government and a body that oversees the management and dealings of crown property, in a way that removed any political interference or even the image of political interference in any significant and important way.

Following the getting rid of the previous president, we had the stepping away of some board members who obviously saw the writing on the wall and understood what was going on. We see now that the people who were appointed—as we begin to discover who they are, where they come from and what their track record is—are in fact people who are serving their own interests and those of their friends in the development world in the province, which I believe will ultimately come back in some significant, real and direct way to contribute to the good fortune of the present government.

Probably if you look through the list of people who are making decisions here now, overseen by the present Management Board Chair, you’ll see that they are all very well connected to this government, each of them doing quite well because of decisions that are made. This goes unchecked because there is no arm’s-length, objective body any more overseeing this very difficult piece of business that goes on.

We as a party have for some time now been calling for a fuller, more open public inquiry into the actions of the Ontario Realty Corp, and I stand here today to say that is still necessary and is still required. Even if we pass this resolution here today which calls for the awarding of contracts in a fair and public way, that still needs to be done. That still needs to be the direction that we go, and nothing short of that should be acceptable to us and to the people of Ontario.

I bring to this some very personal concern, in that on the list of properties that have now been put out there to be assessed are a number of very important buildings across this province that deliver public services, that were put in place after some thoughtful deliberations, for various and important reasons, by previous governments. This government is now looking at turning them over to private developers, I would say ostensibly, probably in the end friends of the government who have the influence, who have the inside track to take these over and do very similar to them what they’ve done in the instance of the Keg Mansion here in Toronto.

The building I’m talking about is the building that Sault Ste Marie very proudly dedicated not more than five or six years ago to the hero that we in Sault Ste Marie and across Canada wanted to recognize at that time, Roberta Bondar, and we called it Roberta Bondar Place. The Lottery Corp was in there in a major way at the time, and that’s an issue for another day in this place.

But it seems at this point in time that that building, which has so much symbolic relevance and importance to our community, which houses so many of the very important services that are delivered to not only Sault Ste Marie but also the region of Algoma and all of northern Ontario, is now being looked at by this disreputable, it seems, corporation or organization as to its viability in terms of whether it will be sold off to the private sector or not.

I suggest to you that we need to make sure the common good in this is recognized as well. Alas, I was concerned when it was put on the table just a few months ago. I am even more concerned now as I watch in disbelief the unfolding of the track record of the present Realty Corp, led by the Chair of Management Board, Mr Hodgson.

So I’m concerned. I’m concerned first of all that that building is on the list, and I’m concerned now as to just who it might be turned over to and what they will do with it in terms of the flipping and the flopping that’s going on and what that will mean for Sault Ste Marie, what that will mean for the good name of Roberta Bondar and what it will mean to the people of Ontario.

Mr Bob Wood (London West): Before speaking to the merits of this bill, I’d like to outline briefly action this government has taken in this area. A new board of directors has been appointed to direct and oversee the activities of the Ontario Realty Corp. All members were appointed with unanimous consent by the opposition parties. The board was given a mandate to put in place a sales process that is more open, accountable and transparent to the people of Ontario. In order to do this effectively, they hired a new senior management team who bring extensive expertise from the real estate industry in the area of sales, leasing, corporate communications and facilities management.

This team began a review of the processes used for past sales to determine their effectiveness. Having discovered some weaknesses in the past practices, they brought their concerns to the board and recommended ways to enhance the existing policies for the sales process. The board took those recommendations and recently turned them into an improved set of policies and procedures that will now govern all real estate transactions by the employees of the ORC.

They have put together a set of very detailed guidelines and procedures that will achieve the following objectives: to ensure clear accountability in decision-making; to ensure fair, open and accessible competitive disposition processes; to achieve the maximum value for taxpayers when disposing of assets; to provide the most cost-effective solutions in disposing of real estate; to protect the real estate value and interest of government; to avoid conflict of interest.

From these objectives a sales process involving three phases has been implemented. Three project teams have been established to ensure that all factors are identified and taken into consideration, and that all policies are adhered to during the process. These teams are made up of experienced individuals from planning, sales, facilities management and communications.

The first team is the portfolio planning team. These professionals will review the inventory of government property to identify properties that are surplus to the government’s needs. They’ll ask this question: Does owning the building provide the best value for the taxpayers? If the answer is no, it moves on to the next phase.

The second team is the asset review team. They perform all the necessary due diligence on the property, such as getting independent appraisals, surveys, title searches and environmental assessments.

Once the due diligence is completed, a separate marketing team is responsible for interviewing and selecting a real estate broker, determining the marketing strategy and evaluating the offers to purchase. The use of professional real estate brokers in sales means expert local market knowledge and full marketing programs for all transactions. Out of 75 responses to a request for qualifications, a pool of 69 professional real estate brokers has been established for use in the sales process.

All properties with a value greater than $100,000 will require sales/marketing proposals from a minimum of three brokers from the qualified pool. Brokers will be selected based on their qualifications, experience, recommended marketing strategy, knowledge of the local market, network of contacts and industry affiliations and their ability to promote the maximum value of the property for the taxpayers. This process of having three qualified brokers bid to market each ORC sale is another step in the new process to ensure all sales are done in an open, professional and accountable manner. A management committee is responsible for the evaluation of all offers.

The approvals process has also been made more rigorous. The approval of the offer and the agreement of purchase and sale has been separated from the sales process. All sales are now reported to the board for their review.

Under the NDP government, when the ORC was first formed, the approval of all land under the ORC’s jurisdiction did not require approval by the board or the government. ORC employees had authority to approve the sales.

In 1998, the Chair of the Management Board changed that. The title of all government properties under the jurisdiction of the ORC were transferred to the Management Board of Cabinet and now require government approval. These are the requirements for all sales:

Appraisal by an external professional—these professional appraisers must abide by professional standards;

A phase 1 environmental assessment report by a qualified consultant;

Proposals from three pre-qualified brokers for their services when the property value exceeds $100,000;

A detailed marketing plan;

Open listings of properties through all available means—multiple listing services, newspaper, Internet or through an open tender.

This government inherited a serious problem in the real estate area in 1995. There had been years of inaction and inattention to getting value for taxpayers’ dollars in the area of real estate. We can all remember the one third of a billion dollars thrown away on a Ataratiri by the Liberals. This bill, however, is not a solution. It is legislative red tape. Its restrictions would actually reduce the money we would get from the sale of some properties. The answer is a good plan and process, properly and transparently executed.

Some questions have been raised about the execution of this mandate, and those questions are now being addressed. The plan, however, is good and the execution will be proper.

We’re proud of getting much better value for the taxpayers’ real estate dollars. Never would we apologize for cleaning up the real estate mess that we inherited from the Liberals and the NDP. I would urge members to vote against this very poorly thought out and highly damaging bill.

Mr Gerry Phillips (Scarborough-Agincourt): I rise to speak in favour of my colleague’s bill. I’d just say that our judgment is there are serious problems at the Ontario Realty Corp, and this bill begins to address them. If you chose to vote against it, that’s fine. But I guarantee you, in our opinion, serious problems have occurred at the Ontario Realty Corp. This bill will not solve all of them, but it will address some of what we regard as the most serious problems that have occurred there.

I suspect and believe that over the next 12 months this issue is going to grow. I recall asking the minister in the Legislature—because I certainly heard of concerns in the public about what’s going on with the Ontario Realty Corp—on November 3, “Mr Hodgson, over the last year and a half, have there been any allegations to you or your staff of corruption at the Ontario Realty Corp?” His answer was, “There have been no specific ones that I am aware of.” Well, I look forward to the events unfolding of when he heard about the problems at the ORC.

In my judgment, the minister, who I gather was responsible for the appointment of the president of the ORC, was responsible for the appointment of the board of directors of the ORC, and was responsible for being the public watchdog on the ORC, surely could not have been unaware of the major concerns about serious problems that have now led to a police investigation. He said he’d heard nothing. Well, you can only draw one of two conclusions: Either he is not watching what is going on at the Ontario Realty Corp or his memory failed him that day.

I would just say that I will continue, and our party will continue, to pursue that statement of early November 1999 that he’d heard nothing. I look forward to the minutes of the Ontario Realty Corp board meetings where these deals had been approved. Concerns have to have been raised, and yet the minister has informed the House that he knew nothing.

My colleague’s bill, as I say, will not solve all of the concerns at Ontario Realty Corp, but we, on behalf of the public, find it obscene that people can buy land from the Ontario Realty Corp and literally days later sell it at an enormous profit. Something is wrong. Something is terribly wrong at the ORC for that to happen, where we find that the police now have had to be called in to investigate inappropriate behaviour at the Ontario Realty Corp. I remind you, the government now have been in office for five years. Under their watch, under their leadership, now we find a police investigation going on.

I was interested to read the latest from the Ontario Realty Corp. I’m not sure whether they think they can make statements that will be accepted as fact when they are beneath the intelligence of the public. What the Ontario Realty Corp now has said is, “We’re going to sell off all the government buildings and then lease them back,” as if that somehow or other magically reduces the cost for the taxpayers. They say, “That move alone will save more than $350 million a year on maintenance costs.” It is simply basically a way, once again, to borrow money.

They will sell the buildings and say, “We’re going to lease them right back.” Frankly, that was done about five years ago with the GO trains. The government of Ontario sold the GO trains to a Bermuda company and then leased them back. That’s what we’re going to do here.

I say to the public: “Something smells at the Ontario Realty Corp. Something smells badly.” I can virtually guarantee you that over the next 12 months the truth will be peeled back and the government will find serious problems that have occurred while they’ve been in power. And this bill today, I gather, under orders from somebody, they’ve decided they’re going to reject.

The member for London West said he was going to talk about the content of the bill; he never did. He never said a word about the content of the bill. He simply talked about some benign history, which belies the fact, as I said earlier, that we have serious allegations at the Ontario Realty Corp such that the police are now investigating them.

I challenge us to vote in favour of this bill. It at least begins to put in place some safeguards that land can’t be bought by some knowledgeable insider and then flipped, literally days later, at the taxpayers’ expense for a huge profit for whomever had that knowledge.

As my colleague said, why do we need lobbyists lobbying the Ontario Realty Corp when presumably what should happen is that the Ontario Realty Corp gets an evaluation of the property, which incidentally they haven’t been doing—they have not had two evaluations on properties, as this bill calls for—and then simply says, “All right, bidders, who is going to give us the highest price?” It’s not who knows whom and who can influence whom, who is the best lobbyist, but who has the best deal for the taxpayers.

Those who watch this realty corporation realize that it has tried to be hidden away. It has $5 billion of taxpayers’ assets. It now has a board completely appointed by the Premier. It has in place a president who, I gather, based on the minister’s answers, was his appointee. Yet the government, I gather, is going to stand up today and reject a bill that tries to put some semblance of public control on this huge operation.

I urge all members to reconsider their position. We have an opportunity to begin to put into place some things that protect the taxpayers and not those who benefit from the Ontario Realty Corp.

Mr Rosario Marchese (Trinity-Spadina): I rise to support the motion before us from the member for Hamilton East.

Mr Wayne Wettlaufer (Kitchener Centre): Oh, Rosario, say it isn’t so.

Mr Marchese: I’ll tell you why, M. Wettlaufer. What we’re dealing with here is septic tank politics. That’s what it’s all about. It smells from the other side. It comes from the other side and it’s seeping through the whole House and throughout all of Ontario. That’s what we’re dealing with here, and that’s what this bill attempts to deal with.

I am incredibly surprised to hear the member for London West saying he’s fixing the problem and, not only that, he’s giving taxpayers value for money. It astounds me that members can abuse their power and their positions to say such odd things. We’re dealing with a problem and he’s saying, “We’re giving taxpayers value for money.” What he and his colleagues are doing is greasing the pockets of the few people who’ve got a few bucks to buy a few buildings. You’re helping them out. Those are the taxpayers you’re helping. But you’re certainly not helping the taxpayers. They are being milked by you and your buddies.

That’s what’s happening. How could you stand here and say such stupidities, that you’re fixing the problem, when we on this side are asking you to fix the problem at the Ontario Realty Corp?

I have to tell you that I am one unhappy camper that we New Democrats set this thing up in the first place, which gave you the opportunity to do what you want to do for your friends with the big, thick pockets and the wads of money, whom you want to help. That’s not the taxpayer. What we have given you is an opportunity to sell away our land dirt cheap. You give it away for a few bucks, and it’s immediately flipped for a couple of million more. What a deal for the taxpayer. How can you defend it? It is so stupid to defend something that is clearly a problem that needs fixing.

There are so many problems connected with this issue. One is close to my riding. But before I get into it, I want to mention that Mr Miele, the head of the Ontario Realty Corp, was appointed president of the ORC a few months after joining the firm as vice-president and is a real estate specialist whose résumé lists four stints as a political operative for both the federal and provincial branches of the Progressive Conservative Party. This is where your problem starts. Recall that most of your appointments—99%, I say—are Conservative buddies of yours. If you can disprove it, please put it down on paper.

If you can’t, I say to you that 99% of your appointments are Tories—the old Social Credit style, the old Reform style, the now Canadian Alliance, and the names go on and on. You guys fit into that. You guys appointed your friends to these boards, and in my view that’s partly where the problem begins.

In my riding there are a number of lawsuits going on. Cityscape is suing Jeffery Lyons, a prominent Conservative party fundraiser, alleging that Mr Lyons lobbied Mr Miele on behalf of Renoir in an attempt to breach the agreement Cityscape had reached to buy the Keg property. Mr Lyons, you will know, is a well-known lawyer connected to M. Lastman and a whole lot of prominent types. He’s a very prominent Conservative fellow. It is alleged here that Mr Lyons met with M. Miele on behalf of Renoir to breach an agreement that had already been arrived at with another company, Cityscape. We’re talking septic tank politics here; you’ve got to deal with it.

Member for London West, you cannot be proud of giving away land dirt cheap, to be flipped for millions a couple of months later. You cannot be proud of that. It makes no sense. All I’m asking you to do is stand in your place, stop reading paper and speak from your heart and say: “Yes, we’re making some mistakes. We’ve got to fix them.” Say that. Don’t just read from the paper that’s given to you and pretend you are an active member of this Assembly.

You’ve got to come into this place and hopefully speak from the heart, if some of you have one, and speak clearly on your emotions and feelings about what you think should be done. Don’t come here saying, “We’re proud, and the taxpayers are proud that we’re dealing with our property in a fair way that’s good for the taxpayers.” It’s not good for the taxpayers. We are now selling public land dirt cheap with questionable politics and questionable connections, and that’s wrong. This needs to be addressed. This bill attempts to get to it.

You might say this isn’t it, but tell me what you think it is. If you say this bill doesn’t do it, tell me what will. But to defend what you as a government are doing, what your minister has done, who claims he was—what’s the word he used? What did he do?

Mr Wood: He cleaned it up, unlike you.

Interjections.

Mr Marchese: He cleaned it up—

The Acting Speaker (Mr Michael A. Brown): Order. I remind members that heckling is not in order, but I also remind the member for Trinity-Spadina that all remarks should be through the Speaker.

Mr Marchese: The member for London West says, “He cleaned it up.” He’s part of the septic tank problem, and he’s saying he’s cleaning it up. He’s the guy who—presumably the minister spilled the beans on this whole issue. It wasn’t he; he only spilled the beans after the beans were spilled and he had to come somewhat clean and say, “We’re doing an investigation.” He’s part of it. Those approvals were given by him, and they had to be taken to cabinet. So he and your cabinet knew of these deals. Just say that, and then it wouldn’t hurt so much.

It wouldn’t hurt me as an opposition member seeing you folks covering yourselves up. The way you cover yourselves up is to deny and deny and to simply read scripts that some poor guy you hire, some young person, has to write for you to read. It’s embarrassing.

Some of you have good professions. Some of you are lawyers, for God’s sake. Get rid of the script and speak from here and here. If you can’t do that, it clearly tells me most of you guys are automatons. After two years you should have an independent mind; after four, God, if you haven’t reached there you’re in trouble. It seems to me you’re in trouble.

We need an accountable, transparent process, because we don’t have one. We need a process that the public can trust, because you’re selling public land. That is in the public interest. Public land should not be sold in the first place. It should be used for public purposes, with objectives to satisfy the will of Ontarians and the overall objectives of things that we need. But this member for London West wants to sell it all to a couple of his buddies—maybe they’re not really his buddies—to sell it to people with money and sell it away for a couple of bucks, to be flipped over for millions. That’s what you’re doing. Say that. Admit it.

Mr Wettlaufer, I want to hear you speak after this, just to see what insights you have into this matter. I support this motion because it will give us some transparency and some accountability, something we do not have.

Mr Joseph N. Tascona (Barrie-Simcoe-Bradford): I’m certainly pleased to be here to speak on this bill brought by the member for Hamilton East. I want to go back in time in terms of where we were. The Ontario Realty Corp was first formed under the NDP government of the day. Land under the Ontario Realty Corp’s jurisdiction did not require approval by the board or the government. Ontario Realty Corp employees had full authority to approve the sales. So the NDP, with their management ability—which may be an oxymoron, management ability—obviously set up a system which was designed for the bureaucrats to have no control over them.

In 1998, the Chair of Management Board changed that. The title of all government properties under the jurisdiction of the Ontario Realty Corp was transferred to the Management Board of Cabinet and now required government approval. These are the requirements for all sales. Let’s be clear about this in terms of the public control, which is the issue here—not because the opposition members think they understand what real estate is and what is a good deal. That’s all we’re talking about.

Mr Agostino: We’re not developers, like you.

Mr Tascona: You’re certainly right, member. The member for Hamilton East is not a developer. You’re just a political stunt artist bringing forth a silly bill because you want a little attention.

The Acting Speaker: The member for Hamilton East is not in his chair.

Mr Tascona: Here’s the process, because I don’t think my friend understands it. These are the requirements for all sales:

Appraisal by an external professional. These professional appraisers must abide by professional standards;

A phase one environment assessment report by a qualified consultant;

Proposals from three pre-qualified brokers for their services when property value exceeds $100,000;

A detailed marketing plan;

Open listing of properties through all available means: multiple listing services, newspaper, Internet, or through open tender; and

A complete copy of the new guidelines and procedures for the Ontario Realty Corp can be found on the ORC website, www.ORC.on.ca. If we want transparent procedures, if we want public control, they’re already in place.

Where we differ with respect to this in terms of why I can’t support this bill—I’d just like to ask the member if he’s taken any time to consult with the real estate industry or even with the Ontario Realty Corp. Certainly this smells to me of red tape and a boondoggle for lawyers. He’s turning the corporation into a legal watchdog.

I’d also like to ask the member if he believes that the taxpayers should remain the largest landowners in the province. This government made a commitment to ensure that taxpayers get the best value for their money. Owning golf courses does not provide value for taxpayers. We recognize this and that’s why we made the commitment in the Blueprint to sell things we don’t need. The government owns and manages approximately 8,000 occupied or vacant buildings, about 50 million square feet. To put this in perspective, our holdings equal 24 Scotiabank towers, 72 floors each, or a few city blocks.

We own and manage more than the combined real estate holdings of Brookfield Lepage and Royal Bank. We can concentrate better on the delivery of programs without tying up our valuable resources in the maintenance, operation and property taxes for all this real estate. Currently the government spends $350 million a year on the operation and maintenance of government buildings. This doesn’t even take into account the upcoming cost of renovating our older buildings. This is money that could be redirected to priority services.

The proposed bill would severely limit the government’s ability to compete in the real estate industry. The Ontario Realty Corp has been working to put in place safeguards that will ensure taxpayers’ interests are protected.

In this bill there’s a statement with respect to a provision in terms of giving disclosure to the public. I’ll just read it for a moment: “Within 10 days after awarding a contract of a value over $10,000 the corporation shall make available to the public on a Web site or by such other means as may be prescribed, details of a successful bid for the contract and details of all unsuccessful bids.”

Disclosure with no rights for citizens. What is he trying to accomplish? He accomplishes nothing. This is pure puffery. This is a poorly thought out bill. This is a public stunt because this member has no understanding of what he’s talking about. He doesn’t even understand the industry. Quite frankly, I think he’s a proponent of the government being a big real estate player. I think that’s what he’s really about.

Mrs Sandra Pupatello (Windsor West): I’m very pleased to speak to this bill, in support of Bill 56 that our member from Hamilton East is forwarding. I want to speak it in the context of the people in my riding who live on Oak Avenue, Marentette Street, Elsmere Avenue, people at home who might be watching or might be hearing and reading about it in the paper who say, “What is all the fuss with the Ontario Realty Corp?”

The understanding is that we, as taxpayers, and all the residents in Windsor West own property through the Ontario government. This government is set on its way to sell off property so that they can try to balance their books by getting rid of property they deem we no longer need. That may sound, on face value, as not a bad idea.

When we start to hear the stories back from people—in fairness, it’s people who didn’t get the deal who started launching lawsuits against the Ontario Realty Corp to a tune that the Ontario Realty Corp had never seen before. Suddenly the light was shining brightly on the Ontario Realty Corp and an awful lot of scurrying was going on.

We are left with a few questions. One of them is, where did this new CEO come from, all of a sudden, from a fairly low-level bureaucratic position out of Canada Lands to suddenly head up, as our member opposite mentioned, likely the largest real estate company in the nation, controlling Ontario land? Who is this individual, when did he come, and how was he suddenly to take over the CEOship of Ontario Realty Corp? What happened to the other guy, Mr Bell? How was it that he was suddenly shoved out the door, with this relative unknown coming in to take over the organization?

It makes us question what the mandate of the organization was. What kind of a hand did the inner cabinet, or “centre” as it’s called in most places in Ontario today, want to have on the land deals that were flying out the door of the Ontario government?

These members opposite today tend to claim that they’re trying to do what’s in the best interests of the taxpayers. If we on Marentette Avenue had our property being sold one day for $1 million and resold several days later for double that, we would feel like we had been ripped off, and we’d be right. Unfortunately, the rules of the Ontario Realty Corp say there’s nothing illegal about that kind of land flip. There’s nothing illegal about getting snookered on a deal. One day the sale for $1 million, several days later—it’s not as though it was years with redevelopment or rezoning or applications for zoning or anything to increase the value of that same property—flipped for double its value.

When you live in Windsor West, you would say that money properly belongs in the coffers of the Ontario government so they could, in turn, fund our hospitals in Windsor West. The people in my riding who still as of today do not have adequate hospital services might have used that money far more wisely if in fact that money truly came to the Ontario government.

Some one individual out there made a heck of a deal, and they did it under this government’s watch. This is the gang who say they’re doing it in the best interests of the taxpayers, who got snookered on a deal. Unfortunately, it was not an illegal deal. Hence the need for a private member’s bill today, one that ought to be passed by this House, that says: “You ought to have proper appraisal of value. You ought to have more than one appraisal.” The insurance industry often requests more than one appraisal when you get a fender-bender on your car. Why would it be unrealistic to request more than one appraisal for land that’s valued at millions of dollars? That is not an unreasonable request.

We find it interesting that there would be a whole slew of lobbyists attached to the Ontario Realty Corp if truly the government’s intent is to just sell land, get money in the door and get the best for the taxpayer. If it’s all about the money, then when people are bidding on property, it’s got nothing to do with who is lobbying whom. But in this case with the Ontario Realty Corp, we have a slew of 26 lobbyists registered to lobby the Ontario Realty Corp, most of whom have some kind of Tory connection.

Gordon Walker is a well-known bagman for the Ontario Tories. Hugh MacKenzie: another well-known Tory. Bill King: not that long ago, communications director for Premier Mike Harris. Steven Pengelly—I knew the name was familiar—was the executive assistant to Ernie Eves. John Matheson: another individual who’s now out of the office but was from the Premier Mike Harris office. Why are these people listed to lobby an organization whose sole purpose is to find best value for land when they’re selling it?

We can expect that the usual slew of suits that sit along the side during question period will eventually become lobbyists to this organization to try to get deals, but not for the interests of the taxpayer.

That’s the point of the bill. It’s very difficult for you to go back to your constituents and explain that you gave away land in a fire sale. You did not do right by the taxpayers. That funding could much better have come into the coffers of the Ontario government and been better spent in their local hospital.

The members in this House in particular know that their hospitals could well have used that even to pump up their emergency wards. I go back to my home town and I say, “What could we have done with $2 million?” We could have put it in our hospitals—like the other 50% of Ontario hospitals that are in deficit, and a deficit that’s growing—because we can’t get adequate health care. Our people are trying now to access American cancer treatment because we don’t have appropriate levels of cancer treatment at home in a timely fashion.

But the minister, Chair of Management Board, had the gall last fall to stand in the House and tell us there were no problems with the Ontario Realty Corp. That’s what he said. Suddenly today we have the script that all the members of the opposite side have to read from to tell us of all the activity to clean up the act of the Ontario Realty Corp. Unfortunately, this government now has a history. The only time they scramble to come up with an answer is after the light is shining brightly on the Ontario Realty Corp.

Mr Wettlaufer: First off, I have to apologize to the members of the opposition. I don’t have a script.

The member for Windsor West talked about this lobbyist registration and the names on that and how they’re PC buddies. Well, who is Herb Metcalfe? Do you remember him? Seems to me he’s a Liberal. And who opened up the lobbyist registration? Wasn’t it our government that wanted to make it transparent? What did you people do? You hid it.

This is very interesting. To all the members of the public who are watching this, I want to point out that if I was a Liberal, I would want to bring this bill forward myself. Why? The members from my riding say, “It’s quite obvious that the Liberals are trying to deflect from their own lack of leadership in those many areas.”

Let’s look at health care. We have petitioned the federal government to put more money into the province of Ontario, to put back the 50-50 arrangement, but no, you people voted against it. The people in my riding quite recognize this.

The member for Scarborough-Agincourt, the master of scaremongering, the mother of scaremongerers, wants to talk all the time about how this problem is going to grow, just like he talked two and three and four years ago about the fact that our government wouldn’t create new jobs. Well, son of a gun, just recently the figures came out that we have created an environment in which there is a net increase, since we were elected in 1995, of 701,000 new jobs. Well, well, well. That’s all you people do, is scaremonger.

This bill is awful. I don’t even think the member who introduced it, the member for Hamilton East, bothered to read the policies which are in effect at present in the ORC. What are these new policies? Look at this. We have in place now a resale profit recovery clause. What is that? The agreement of purchase and sale may contain a clause providing for the purchaser to reimburse the government the difference if the purchaser sells the property for a higher price in a specific time frame.

How does that compare to the bill? Let’s look at what the bill says. The bill says the buyer may not resell the property within one year for more than the person paid for it unless the Real Estate Council of Ontario determines that the increase in value resulted from substantial development of the real estate.

Now, there’s only a little bit of difference here, the difference being we have to be specific on each individual item for sale. If we adopt your proposal in here, we may have a constitutional challenge. I don’t think the member for Hamilton East recognizes that.

What else has happened? He’s suggesting two appraisals. There were two appraisals in the sale of 145 Eastern. That’s a deal that you say is a bad deal. If it’s a bad deal, then how come? We have appraisers in this province, we have an appraisal institute, and they are bound by their professional standards. It’s not even necessary to have two appraisals. One appraisal is fine.

This is an advent of red tape, and I cannot accept it; I cannot support it. If I was a Liberal, yes, I’d support it too, but I’m not a Liberal.

The Acting Speaker: The member for Hamilton East has two minutes to reply.

Mr Agostino: I thank my colleagues who have joined in the debate.

I’m astonished—I shouldn’t be surprised, though. The members from the government side of the House who spoke had their script, had their marching orders from the minister’s office, and carried those marching orders and script well, and you’ll carry the vote, on the orders you’ve been given by the Premier, as well on this today.

What is disappointing in all of this is that there was an opportunity here today for the government to sort of help clear some of the stench, the smell over the ORC. Frankly, a government that has had five years now to clean this up becomes the champion of reform after they get exposed. The minister knew nothing in November, knew nothing in December, knew nothing in January, February, March, then called a forensic audit only after some good journalistic work by the Globe and Mail that exposed the ORC.

Then the forensic audit was called, only then, when they knew since November or December of the previous year that there were significant difficulties with deals that had been made. There was a cover-up, I believe, at the ORC. There was a cover-up by this government.

You and your government have an opportunity today to send out a clear signal to Ontarians. You’re either interested in cleaning up the ORC or you’re not. Frankly, responding and calling in police investigations after newspaper articles is not leadership. That’s called following an article. Every single step you have taken has been following public exposure of what you have done. You have never taken the initiative on this at all.

Today I believe this government and government members who have spoken have continued the cover-up at the ORC. You can’t hide on this. It’s too open; it’s too much out there right now; there’s too much going on. You’re going to be exposed on this.

Let me tell you very clearly, today I believe you had an opportunity to send out a clear message that you’re interested in getting the best deal for taxpayers. It’s obvious that what you’re interested in is getting the best deal for your friends. It is a pattern of this government, and the relationship between this government, developers, lobbyists and their friends is going to come back to haunt you.

The Acting Speaker: The time for this ballot item has expired.

CANADA HEALTH AND SOCIAL TRANSFER

The Acting Speaker (Mr Michael A. Brown): Mr Arnott moves private member’s resolution number 16. The member has up to 10 minutes.

Mr Arnott: On behalf of my constituents in Waterloo-Wellington, I am very pleased to initiate debate on my private member’s resolution, which is intended to reverse federal cuts to Ontario’s health system and secure stable and predictable funding for the future, and ultimately restore fiscal federalism in this country.

I would like at the outset to thank Premier Harris for bringing forward a government motion based in part on the resolution we are now debating today, which we voted on, as you know, yesterday. I appreciate his very strong commitment to this issue and I welcomed his acknowledgement last Monday of the work that I have done on it.

To fully describe the need for this resolution at this point in time, I must outline the events that have brought us to this point, an urgent point in time, whereby we need a renewed commitment for the issue that is top of mind and of highest concern to the people of Ontario. For many months, our Minister of Health has repeatedly stressed that the federal government’s share of health care funding, in terms of cash transfers, is down to 11 cents on the dollar.

This in itself is a wake-up call in terms of how far federal funding has deteriorated from the 50-50 agreement that came into being when medicare was first established in Canada. A paltry 11% is one thing—a major thing in fact—but in the context of a $100-billion budget surplus, which the federal government is expected to realize over the next five years and which they are politically committed to spend half of, there is a strong case for immediate action.

In November of last year, I raised this issue with my colleagues at a government caucus meeting. I made a statement to this House on December 1, 1999, calling upon the federal government to fully restore the CHST cash transfers they had cut. I then tabled this resolution in the Legislature on December 13, and brought the initiative up again during question period with our Minister of Finance, Ernie Eves, on December 20. Early in the new year, I sent letters to the federal finance minister, Paul Martin, outlining my resolution and asking that he make health care a priority for the next federal budget.

At the same time, I also wrote to the member for Thunder Bay-Atikokan and the member for Beaches-East York in their capacities as health critics for their respective parties, requesting their support for my overall initiative and for this resolution.

The Premiers’ conference, which was held in the first week of February, unanimously endorsed the points of this resolution. I expressed optimism at that time, as it appeared that the initiative was gaining sufficient momentum. Unfortunately, my optimism was totally misplaced. The federal budget, which was announced in the last week of February, offered a one-time $2.5-billion payment for health care, and in my words, it was grossly insufficient.

A $100-billion projected surplus over five years at the federal level: It should have and could have been a budget which renewed the equal partnership on health funding that was forged in the 1960s, but instead it became a lightening rod for the federal government’s inadequate commitment to health care.

This brings us to this day. I want to thank the member for Bruce-Grey and the member for Thornhill for trading their ballot items with me so that my resolution could be debated in a timely manner. Their assistance demonstrates a commitment that we generally share throughout the government, that being that we not only support one another but we also invest our time and energy into endeavours that strengthen health care in this province.

I want to say a few words about our Minister of Health and Long-Term Care, this extraordinary minister whose dedication, competence and integrity never cease to amaze me. While embarking upon the most significant restructuring and revitalization of our health care system in a generation, she has provided superb political leadership and effective management towards the goal of improving our health services so that they meet the needs of every single Ontario resident.

Working tirelessly and demonstrating always the perfect mix of a firm resolve to improve the system coupled with the compassion of someone who cares deeply about when the system doesn’t respond the way it should, she has emerged as the most important Minister of Health in Canada, without a doubt, and a fine example of public service for all of us in this House.

I am pleased to report that because of her work our investments and reinvestments are providing more health services closer to home for people in Ontario. Since 1995, when we were first elected to government, we have added 29 more kidney dialysis centres across the province, and soon there will be 36 MRI machines operating in the province, three times the number we had when we were first elected five years ago.

Last year we expanded the number of breast cancer screening sites in Ontario to 48, an increase of 12 in just one year. The Healthy Babies, Healthy Children program, which I have helped to highlight, has expanded almost sevenfold, from an annual budget of about $10 million a few years ago to nearly $70 million this year, and an additional $155 million has been invested in cancer care since 1995, to name but a few of the reinvestments of this government.

Ontario is clearly living up to its commitment on health care. We have not only made up the yearly shortfall of $1.7 billion that the federal government has cut, but we have also increased our health budget by $3 billion since we first took office. Major health stakeholders whom I’ve talked to agree that it’s high time for the federal government to start living up to their side of the health care bargain.

Dr Ron Wexler, who is the president of the Ontario Medical Association, has written me and said, “The OMA fully supports your resolution.” Referring to the federal government, he went on to say that “there is an immediate need to address the issue of long-term, sustainable funding, rather than small, one-time payments which will not meet the needs of Ontarians.”

David MacKinnon, who is the president of the Ontario Hospital Association, has written me as well. He says “On behalf of the OHA, I offer our own full support to your resolution.” He refers to this year’s federal funding for health care as coming “nowhere near to addressing the severity of the funding pressures faced by Ontario’s hospitals in the coming years.” David MacKinnon listed future funding pressures, including a growing and aging population, new technologies and the effect of globalizaion on consumers’ expectations.

I am very pleased to read from a letter by Doris Grinspun, the executive director of the Registered Nurses’ Association of Ontario, who states that “RNAO fully supports this resolution with the condition that funds be utilized only to strengthen the health care system.” That, of course, is the same goal as my resolution today.

Louise Leonard, who is the president of the community care access centre of Waterloo region, writes that the board is “fully supportive of your private member’s resolution” and “wants to congratulate you on your action to reinstate appropriate funding levels for these vital sectors in our society.”

I also heard from the community care access centre of Wellington-Dufferin, which serves another part of my riding so well. Ted Michalos, who is the chair, said: “It’s imperative that all levels of government recognize the expanding need for health and social services and support this with appropriate funding. We fully support your resolution and hope the government of Ontario will influence the federal government to restore federal transfers and establish a process to ensure ongoing funding is responsive to the needs of the population.”

Dennis Egan, who is the president of the Grand River Hospital in Kitchener, states: “I would like to express my strong support for your proposed resolution related to the Canada health and social transfer payments. The future of medicare as we know it is at stake.” He also states: “The people have clearly spoken about their commitment to medicare. It is time for the federal government to respond. As a Canadian, I am very thankful that they currently have the ability to do so.”

Carolyn Skimson, who is the executive director of the Groves Community Memorial Hospital in Fergus, writes that her hospital board “has passed a motion of strong support for this resolution.”

Sandra Hanmer, executive director of the Victorian Order of Nurses serving Waterloo, Wellington and Dufferin, states that they are also “supportive” of my private member’s resolution.

I want to thank all of these leaders, their volunteer boards and front-line workers for supporting my resolution. Their letters indicate a clear understanding of the pressures that the health care system will face down the road, as well as the challenges introduced by the $10-billion federal funding gap in health care since 1995. They are supporting this resolution and the views expressed by provincial governments across the country because they know the federal government must renew its commitment in a major way in order to ensure that governments will be able to protect health care in the future.

Demographic changes alone warrant urgent consideration. Consider the fact that 50% of Ontario’s health budget today is needed to care for 12.6% of the population. This segment, of course, is our seniors, and their numbers will grow dramatically over the next decade or so as the baby boomer generation approaches this age. We must protect access to health care for our senior citizens.

I want to ask all members of the Legislative Assembly to express their support to help ensure that we will be able to protect Ontario’s health care for the future and for all Ontarians. If this resolution receives unanimous support today, I believe we in this Legislature will speak loudly and clearly with one voice which the federal government must acknowledge and heed.

Mrs Lyn McLeod (Thunder Bay-Atikokan): I am pleased to have any opportunity to speak on health care in this Legislature, and speak particularly to the very crucial issue of adequate funding for health care, which is something we all support.

The resolution before us might be described as a somewhat modest proposal when it comes to funding support for health care. It is certainly a resolution which is absent of the campaign-style attack, partisan rhetoric that was part of Mr Harris’s resolution, which our party voted against yesterday. Because it is absent of that kind of partisan in-fighting attack, we will be happy to support a resolution that calls for adequate funding from the federal government, albeit I would like to see this resolution less one-sided.

I will be urging Mr Arnott, at the conclusion of my remarks, to seek support from his own government for adequate levels of funding for health care and for addressing some of the very real, pressing health care issues in this province.

The first part of Mr Arnott’s resolution addresses the fact that the Canada health and social transfers should be restored to their 1994-95 levels. I am fairly comfortable with this resolution. I want to recognize the fact, however, that there will be no agreement among parties as to what that means in terms of dollars.

I have no need to engage in the ongoing debate about what the actual level of transfers is to the province of Ontario, but I recognize the fact that Mr Arnott’s resolution was written and tabled with this Legislature prior to the federal budget having been tabled and that the federal Minister of Finance and the Prime Minister would certainly make the case that, as they see it, the federal transfers for the CHST, for health, for post-secondary education and for social services, have indeed been restored to the 1994-95 levels and in fact beyond that.

The difference is that the Harris government prefers not to recognize the fact that there are tax points which were given to the provinces in order to provide additional funding for health care, post-secondary education and social services.

I think it’s ironic that this government is not prepared to recognize that, because it was Frank Miller, a former Premier of this province in a Conservative government, who urged the federal government to provide no cash transfers at all but to give the provinces the flexibility of providing funding for health, post-secondary education and social services exclusively through tax point transfers so that there would be no federal government ties on any of the health care funding. I’m very pleased that the federal government of the day said, “No, we want to maintain some cash transfers to the provinces.”

I am concerned when any government cuts health care funding, so I am pleased that the federal government currently is starting to restore the full cash portion of the federal transfers. I regretted the fact when I was in government that it was the Brian Mulroney government, with Michael Wilson as finance minister, that decided to de-index the cash portion of the transfers to the provinces. It was part of the original agreement to have an indexation built in that would ensure that the cash portion continued to increase. With that de-indexation, it was a virtual guarantee that the tax points were going to be more and more a proportion of the funding transfer to the provinces.

Be that as it may, and be it as it may that there will be no agreement on exactly what that means in terms of dollars, I’m comfortable in supporting the resolution because I want to urge both levels of government to increase their funding for health care. That’s why I have no hesitation in supporting the second part of the resolution, which I believe is extremely reasonable, that “cash transfers increase to keep pace with future cost pressures faced by provincial governments.”

What I would urge, however, is that the Harris government, in presenting this resolution, in supporting this resolution, take equal concern for its willingness to put money into health, post-secondary education and social services, over and above their priority of tax cuts. This is a government that has set the Canadian rule book in terms of giving priority to tax cuts over important programs in health, post-secondary education and social services.

I only have a few moments left because my colleagues are also anxious to debate this issue, but I wish I could set aside my health critic’s hat for a few minutes and talk about the cuts the government has made to post-secondary education and social services, all in the name of a tax cut. Mr Arnott’s issue speaks not solely to health but to post-secondary education and social services, and I wish we had more time in this House to debate the importance of putting funding support into all of those areas.

When it comes to health care, I would lastly just like to conclude by my absolute insistence, if there is to be an increase in transfer payments from the federal government to the provincial government, particularly to this Harris government, that it come with a very clear understanding, signed in writing, that it will go to additional new programs in health care.

We have seen that the Harris government is prepared to take the transfers that are coming from the federal government now and use those dollars to pay for health care programs that are currently being funded provincially so that the province can take the dollars and put them into new tax cut programs.

I don’t have time to go over all the details, but I would be most happy to share with the members opposite the details of the dollars their government is not spending from the federal transfers last year, so that they can urge their government to put all the federal dollars directly into new health care programs, with additional funding from their government as well.

Mr Tony Martin (Sault Ste Marie): I want to say right off the front that I appreciate the member from Waterloo-Wellington bringing this piece of business forward this morning. I think it’s a very important piece of business, it’s very timely, and certainly the way he has put his resolution together speaks to some things that are of an essential nature if we’re going to continue to provide in this country, and particularly in this province, the kinds of services we obviously can afford.

We’re a very rich jurisdiction, particularly when you compare Ontario to almost any other jurisdiction, whether it be in Canada, North America or around the world. We can afford the kinds of services we were building up in this country and in this province over a long period of time, until about 1995, when a change occurred, the wind turned and things began to happen.

This member is, in my view, one of the finest members of this House, a member of the government who from time to time has had the intestinal fortitude to stand up and speak his own mind and challenge or even oppose some of the programs and direction of the government in which he serves. He does that in a very intelligent and legitimate and sincere way. He is a good politician. He speaks for his constituents and he speaks the truth as he sees it.

He’s not one of these folks who has drunk the Kool-Aid, so to speak, who needs to take perhaps a little drug test from time to time to see if it has cleared his system in this place. We know that when Ted stands on an issue, even though I often disagree re his position because he essentially is a Progressive Conservative and I’m a New Democrat, he comes to it sincerely. He presents this resolution here this morning in a very sincere and I think legitimate fashion.

However, having said that, I want to very briefly put on the record that it would make a whole lot more sense if he were attached to a government that showed by their actions and the things they’ve done over the last five or six years that they actually believe in community programs and social programs and education, and health care that is fully funded and accessible to all who call Ontario home.

The fear of the federal government, if I might enter into that water for just a second, is that if they turn over the kind of money that is necessary and that they should be turning over to the province of Ontario by way of transfers, which they have cut over the last five to 10 years to the province, this government will give it away, because that’s what they have done. Since they were elected, they have chosen as their first priority, front and centre, to give tax breaks primarily to those in the province who need them the least.

In doing that, they have taken money out of the public purse that could have been spent on social programs, education and health care. If they had taken the tack of paying down the deficit and paying down the debt, everybody would be fine with that, but they didn’t. They went out and borrowed money to give tax breaks to the rich and the well-off at the expense of health care, social services and education.

Interjections.

The Acting Speaker: Order.

Mr Martin: Obviously, some members across the way are offended by this kind of telling the truth, but it has to be said.

If this government had, from the outset, looked at what they identified as the problem, which from their perspective was the deficit and the debt, and actually spent their time and money addressing that, and then, after they had done that, without tearing the heart out of the social, health and education programs, which they did and blamed it on the federal government, if they had not instead given the money away by way of a tax break to their wealthy friends and benefactors, we might have the money in the Ontario coffers to actually continue to support those programs in the way we expected they would and in a way that would best serve the constituents of Ontario.

I have to say to the member this morning that the federal government might be more open to the plea he his making to them, which I will support here in this Legislature. They might be more open to responding to it in a positive way if they didn’t think, because of your track record, that you are just going to give that money away.

Mr David Tilson (Dufferin-Peel-Wellington-Grey): I’d like to congratulate the member for Waterloo-Wellington for bringing forward this resolution. We have just spent a considerable amount of time in the House debating the same topic, but I hope we on all sides of this House are concerned with the increasing cost of health care in this province and with determining where we’re going to find the resources to pay for it. We’re concerned about our population getting older and the health problems related to that. We’re concerned about the overcrowding of emergency rooms.

We’re concerned about cancer patients having long waits for treatment. We’re concerned about certain of our residents having to go to the United States to get treatment. We’re concerned about all kinds of things in our health care system. One of the reasons that is taking place is we don’t have any more money.

Mr Rosario Marchese (Trinity-Spadina): How come? What’s the reason?

Mr Tilson: We don’t have any more money because the federal Liberals haven’t agreed to their original undertaking 40 years ago to pay 50-50 on the cost of health care.

I always enjoy listening to the comments of the member for Trinity-Spadina. I never agree with one word he says, but I enjoy them. He, of course, commented that we refer to scripts over here. My script is a newspaper. The script I would like to refer to this morning is an editorial from a newspaper in my riding known as the Enterprise. It’s a wonderful Caledon biweekly newspaper.

Mr Marchese: It has to be if you’re reading from it.

Mr Tilson: Absolutely. The editorial headlines: “Liberals should listen to Canadians about health. Health care should be the reigning Liberals’ Achilles’ heel.”

This was last week; I think it was April 5.

“Health Minister Allan Rock came to a provincial health ministers’ meeting last week in Markham with empty pockets and continued assertions that there’s no money to put on the health care negotiation table.

“Despite the Markham meeting’s failure to come up with concrete ideas for rescuing our national health system, Prime Minister Jean Chrétien is refusing to call a premiers’ meeting to deal with health. He says he wants to wait for a planned report on reforms to provincial health care systems in June, and meet in the fall.

“But Ontarians, like residents of other provinces, have watched health care reforms unfold in recent years that have been so drastic they’ve turned hospitals and related health services upside down and inside out.

“While Liberals hope Canadians accept their oft-repeated credo that money won’t solve the health care system’s woes, the opposite is also true: Without money, the health care system will self-destruct.”

Finally, it says: “Money may not fix all the health care woes, but it would sustain the system while health professionals and credible politicians—of whatever stripe—work to fix it.”

That’s the concern of the people of Caledon, at least. It’s an unbiased statement. Everyone is concerned about where we’re going with health care. It is interesting that at least one member of the Liberal caucus has indicated she is going to support this resolution, which I’m glad to hear. I couldn’t understand for the life of me why the Liberals opposed it yesterday, when we voted on a similar resolution. I believe she said it was too partisan.

Mr James J. Bradley (St Catharines): That was partisan. This one is not.

Mr Tilson: They can take whatever spin they want and make whatever flip they want. Quite frankly, they seem to say there shouldn’t be any finger pointing in trying to deal with health care. I hear the words “finger pointing,” which seems to be the latest spin coming out of the Liberal caucus. “Don’t finger point. Don’t say it’s anybody’s problem.”

We’re saying there’s no more money. You’ve got the money, the most you gave. You know what the Liberals did? You know what Mr Martin did? He gave one-shot funding in the last budget of, I think it was, $2.5 billion. That’s all, and that’s for the entire country. Big deal.

The other point the Liberals say, of course, is, “Oh, well, we haven’t spent the transfers we’ve already got.” I think they mentioned $700 million or $900 million; I don’t know what the figure was. They forget that those transfer monies that were given were spread over three years. The supplemental was meant to increase provincial funding on health care over the fiscal years 1999-2000, 2000-01, 2001-02. That’s what the money’s worth. These people want us to spend it all in one year. How irresponsible.

I’m glad the Liberals have changed their mind. Mr Rock–I have no idea where he’s coming from. Mr Rock simply says, “We must restructure more.” Well, what have we been doing for the last number of years? I’m glad it sounds like this resolution is going to be unanimous and I look forward to receiving that vote.

Mr Gerry Phillips (Scarborough-Agincourt): I’m pleased to join the debate on the motion from member from Wellington-Waterloo, just to say that I think the public who watch us in action must often shake their heads at where we are spending our time and not dealing with, in my opinion, the real issue, which is the quality of health care. It is who has the best public relations exercise. I’ll give us and the public a couple of examples.

I remember very well, before the 1995 election, what Mike Harris said about the Martin budget. He said, in the wake of that budget, “...the spending cut component, which we publicly endorsed.” Mike Harris, before the 1995 election, told the federal government, “We love the cuts; we love them.” As a matter of fact, if you go back and check the Hansard, Harris said, “Well, it isn’t quite deep enough, but we publicly endorse it.” So out of that one side of his mouth, before the 1995 election, he was publicly endorsing it.

We on the Liberal side, I might add–you can go back and check the Hansard–had concerns about that. But no, Mike Harris, to get elected, said, “We publicly endorse those cuts.” Of course, now Mike sees that the winds have changed and he’s changed his tune. He’s now arguing the opposite.

The second point I’d make is that Mike Harris and Frank Miller went to the federal government and said to them: “Don’t give us any cash. We don’t want cash. We want nothing but tax points.” Of course, this is what makes the public so cynical, that Mike Harris and Frank Miller went and begged the federal government, “Don’t give us cash.” Actually, here’s what Miller said, “The provinces, led by Ontario and Quebec, simply wanted tax room, but the federal government insisted on a cash component.” So out of that side of Mike Harris’s mouth then, he was saying “Give us no cash, because we’re a tax-rich province.

Just give us tax points.” And of course the federal government of the day fell for that, bought that line, and said: “OK, we will have a blend. We will cut the federal taxes and we’ll transfer to them.” Of course now, as the wind is blowing, the tune changes, and Mike Harris says, “Well, I know back then I said I only wanted tax points, but now I see a public relations exercise here where I can say, ‘No, no, we don’t count those tax points. We only count cash.’”

So the public has a right to be cynical, terribly cynical. Mike Harris, before the 1995 election, said: “Paul Martin, thank you. We appreciate those cuts. We publicly endorse them.” Now, five years later, when it’s not politically popular to say that, he changes his tune completely.

Back when he was trying to beg the federal government, “Don’t give us any cash, give us nothing but tax points”—because Ontario is very tax-rich; that would give us more and give less to the less tax-rich provinces—he said, “Give us no cash.” Now, when the federal government went along with that and had a blend of them, Mike says: “We don’t count the tax points. That’s all nonsense.” That’s talking out of both sides of our mouth. So as cancer becomes a growing problem, as our hospitals have huge deficits, where do we spend our time? We spend our time trying to blame somebody else.

So we will support this motion, but I will do it recognizing that Mike Harris said one thing before the 1995 election—he said, “We publicly endorse these cuts”—and now he has changed his tune completely. He told the federal government, “We want no cash. Please, no cash, just tax points,” and now he says, “We don’t even count that.” So you wonder why the public views us with such cynicism. It is because of the taxpayers’ money being spent misleading people on television, instead of dealing with the real health issues.

Mr Marchese: I want to say that I’m going to support this resolution, of course, because the member for Waterloo-Wellington is a good guy. But in addition to that, it makes sense as a resolution, and I’ll tell you why. I’m also going to tell the public that is hopefully watching that I’m going to be attacking both the federal Liberal government and the provincial Conservative government, and I’ll give some reasons.

First of all, I want to say to you, not to the member for Waterloo-Wellington but to the public, that the reason why both governments, provincial and federal, are throwing bombs at each other is because they’re both guilty. Each is trying, of course, to defend its innocence, but they are both guilty of the problem and neither one can simply sit back and say, “It’s me,” or, “It’s not me.” They have to say, “It’s the other guy.”

What is happening is that with an economy that is working so well both provincially and federally, both Liberals and Conservatives argue, neither of them seems to find sufficient money for health. So I ask the members opposite, where is this money going? If you tell us this has been the best economy ever because of you, and the Liberals tell us it’s the best economy because of them, where is this money going? That is the question the public is asking. David, they need to know. In your comments you can speak to it, at the federal level.

We have seen so many surplus dollars. Why? And at what cost? I would remind the public that 40% of deficit reduction at the federal level was due to the cuts they made in unemployment insurance. They hurt victims of unemployment. When the economy was not working and they were unemployed, who did the federal Liberal government hurt? The unemployed, by restricting eligibility, by restricting who qualifies, by making it take longer for them to qualify. They’ve shut out so many people.

At the housing level, they were the ones who in 1990 said, in opposition, “We need a national housing program.” In government in 1993, it was abandoned. They have devolved their social responsibility to housing to you folks, and you’ve devolved it to the municipalities.

Poverty is an issue that the federal Liberal government speaks about all the time. In 1989, Mr Broadbent, our leader of the New Democrats at the time, moved a motion, a commitment to get rid of poverty by the year 2000. It is still in the books. Poverty is greater than ever before. We haven’t made a dent under the Tories, then Mulroney, and M. Chrétien, who says: “We have a heart. Harris doesn’t, but we do.”

A national child care program. Where is it? They promised it. It’s not there. A pharmacare program. Where is it? It’s not there. They made a commitment to tax cuts and Harris loved it. That was in the last budget. Alexa McDonough of the New Democrats was the only one who said, “We are not spending enough on health care.” Then it got onto the national agenda and M. Harris said: “Sounds like a good idea. We got our tax cut. Now better jump on the bandwagon for health care. Makes sense to me.” Smart guy, M. Michael H. Harris. He said: “I’m going to throw a few bones on the other side to keep them busy scurrying about. We’ll get the money we need.”

You remember when Mr Stockwell on the other side was in opposition. David, you were here. Mr Stockwell used to say to Bob Rae: “You don’t have a revenue problem; you have a spending problem.”

Interjections.

Mr Marchese: Please, please. Marchese wants to tell you, you don’t have a revenue problem; you’ve got a spending problem. Where is your revenue going? It’s going somewhere because I ain’t seeing it and half of the population ain’t seeing it. That was Stockwell at the time. It’s being sucked away by the tax scheme giving the rich people back their money—the taxpayers’ money. You don’t have a revenue problem; you’ve got a spending problem, and the spending problem is the tax cut. That’s your problemo and you don’t know how to deal with it.

I don’t support tax cuts. I don’t support them in Saskatchewan; I don’t support them in Manitoba; I don’t support them in British Columbia. I think they’re wrong, because when you introduce tax cuts you’ve got to introduce user fees for everything to get your money back. I think that’s fundamentally wrong. But there’s a corporate culture in this country where in the 1990s they wanted inflation to be zero; later they wanted deficits to be tamed. They got that and now they want tax cuts. These are the corporate moguls, the ones who’ve got the money to be able to sell their ideas through the newspapers they own.

It’s their agenda, and even New Democrats in Saskatchewan are buying into it. It’s a shame. But they’re buying into it because the culture is so pervasive that everybody wants it. They’re not seeing a wage increase so they want a tax cut, because their wages have been frozen for 10 years.

I want to read you some quotations that I’m sure you will remember, Speaker, because you were here at the time. This is what M. Michael H. Harris used to say at the time. This was during the time when Bob Rae was decrying the unilateral changes by Ottawa to Canada’s social programs, which we argued were not compatible with a co-operative federalism. This is what you people used to say. You young ones who weren’t here don’t know, but Michael D. H. Harris remembers. He used to say this:

“If the Premier,” meaning Bob Rae “spent as much time working towards making Ontario great again as he spends at pointing fingers and running down other levels of government, then Ontario would be great again and we would not be having this debate today.”

“I’m so doggone mad,” Harris said, “that all we’re doing in this Legislature is pointing fingers, blaming others, instead of starting to put commonsense solutions to work to restore the hope and the dreams and the aspirations of all Ontarians.”

He said, “So it actually is a disgrace when the Premier of the province of Ontario spends his time whining, pointing fingers, blaming others.”

“It is commonplace for provincial governments to try to blame the federal government,” M. Michael D. H. Harris used to say.

Harris again: “That somehow or other Mr Mulroney or Mr Wilson has brought this policy in to try and control the economic situation to destroy the country, I take great exception to.”

Here is Michael Harris again: “The government now of Ontario is reduced to whining and squabbling with other levels of government.”

“So we can continue to complain that other levels of government are not pulling their weight. We can blame local levels of government,” and he goes on and on.

My good buddy Mr Stockwell said: “I think it’s almost shameful that we in this province have been reduced to debating resolutions put forward by the Premier that speak to nothing more than the federal government and asking, begging, whining about the transfer payments.”

Mr Stockwell again: “You can have three levels of government, but there is one taxpayer. Whether they take it from the right pocket, the left pocket or the hip pocket, it matters not, because all of them are taking and the taxpayers are fed up.”

I’ve got a few other quotes I’ll have to introduce at another time, but I want to tell you, here are your cuts that have been given by a non-profit organization created by the country’s health ministers. They annually release a report showing how much Canadians and the government spend on health care. This is the Canadian Institute for Health Information:

“Ontario spent $93 per person less on health care in 1998 than in 1995, according to the February 1999 study. Measured in constant dollars, the Harris government cut $1.97 billion in real health spending.”

The CIHI data shows the Tories cut $266 million in 1996, $628 million in 1997 and $1.1 billion in 1998. Stop throwing the bombs. You people are the ones who are cutting in health. You have the money, unlike ever before. Spend it wisely and stop blaming the other level of government, particularly when the economy is good. You’ve got to think about what you’re doing. The public is on to you.

Mrs Tina R. Molinari (Thornhill): It’s a pleasure to speak on this resolution today. I must comment, though, that the member for Trinity-Spadina is a hard act to follow. Although I don’t agree with a lot of what he says, he certainly is very entertaining. And I want to correct the member for Trinity-Spadina; it’s Premier Michael H. Harris. That’s important to point out.

I want to begin by congratulating the member for Waterloo-Wellington for presenting this resolution here today. I want to congratulate him also on being able to get the support of everyone in the House for this resolution. Clearly it’s a resolution that everyone believes can be supported.

I spoke on the similar resolution that the Premier put forward, and at that time I talked about a federal member, the MP from Vaughan-King-Aurora, Maurizio Bevilacqua, and what he was doing to promote the 2000 budget. I also talked about the MP from Thornhill, Elinor Caplan, and what she was doing. With this resolution, I’m going to stay away from the partisan part of it and I’m just going to talk about the benefits of this resolution, being sensitive and clear to every member in the House who is in support of this.

I was pleased to hear—

Interjections.

The Acting Speaker: Order. I am having difficulty hearing the member from Thornhill, and she’s obviously having trouble hearing me. If we have private conversations, would we take them outside. I would like to be able to hear the member from Thronhill.

Mrs Molinari: This issue is a national issue and all the provinces in the country have indicated that there has been a definite cut to social transfer payments.

I want to focus on some of the comments made by the member for Thunder Bay-Atikokan where she’s looking for insurance that the money will be spent on health care. There are a number of areas that the federal government is a partner in. Health care is definitely one of them, but post-secondary education is definitely another one that they should be part of.

I’m going to read the resolution because it hasn’t been read for a few minutes.

These are three important areas that the federal government has to take some responsibility for. All of the provinces have indicated that we are to be partners in all of these areas: “a fair funding approach which ensures that these cash transfers increase to keep pace.” Fairness is all we’re asking for. Fairness is what all the provinces are asking for.

I want to focus on the fact that $4.2 billion has been cut. All the rhetoric that we’re hearing with the advertising doesn’t clearly state the fact that it is $4.2 billion that has been cut from the social transfer payments.

It’s important that we recognize that all the members of the House are in support of this. All the provinces are in support of getting those transfer payments back. I appreciate the opportunity to support this bill, and I was pleased to be able to participate with the member, to allow him to present the resolution at this point in time, because it’s very timely that it be presented now. I’m pleased to hear that it seems we’ll get unanimous support in the House.

Mr Ernie Parsons (Prince Edward-Hastings): On a point of order, Mr Speaker: I would like to welcome the students from Sir James Whitney in my wonderful riding of Prince Edward-Hastings.

The Acting Speaker: As you know, that is not a point of order, but we welcome them also.

Mr Bradley: My good friend Ted Arnott, whose family—his three young children and his wife—was in the gallery just a little while ago, is a person I support on many things, because I remember he was one of the people who was opposed to the tax cuts. I won’t ask him to deny it or anything. It’s always a bit touchy for members on the government side. But Ted was a person who, when they were putting together the Common Sense Revolution, said, “Look, wait till we balance the budget, then you can have tax cuts.”

He’s always had a bit of an independent point of view, so when he brings forward a resolution, yes, it suits the purposes of the government, but I think he genuinely believes in this, and what a difference between this resolution, which I consider to be a multi-partisan one that anybody could support, and the nasty piece of work that Guy Giorno prepared for the House yesterday, which was all orchestrated. I think Ted genuinely believes in this. That’s why I think this resolution is significantly superior to the one that was presented previously.

I want to say as well that if I were the federal government of many years ago, I would never have given the so-called tax points to the provinces, because what actually happened was, that gave flexibility to the provinces to take the money that was supposedly for post-secondary education, for health and for, I think, some other social programs and squirrel it away in tax cuts or other areas of expenditure. If I were the federal government, no matter which political stripe, I would have designated the money specifically for those areas and not allowed provincial governments to spend it elsewhere or to give it away in tax cuts.

If you look at the first term of this government, what they’ve done is, they’ve taken the federal transfer payments, and instead of applying them to the areas for which they were designated, like health care and post-secondary education, they gave it away in tax cuts which benefit the wealthiest people in the province the most.

Mike Harris now has a choice. I heard yesterday on the news that he said, “The next budget is going to have tax cuts in it.” I explained to this House in a debate earlier that I had a perfect plan for the government. Number one, you want to be able to blame the federal government for something, so my plan for you—and there are a few other members perhaps who weren’t here the other day—is a good plan.

I say forget about more tax cuts that you were going to put in this budget and tell everybody in the world that the reason you can’t give the tax cuts is because the federal government won’t give you the kind of money you want for health care. You get to bash the feds and you can blame them for no tax cuts.

But it looks like you want the tax cuts. The priority of Mike Harris is tax cuts, not health care, because he has a choice. If I were one of the reporters at that meeting of provincial health ministers, I would have asked each of the health ministers, “Sir”—or ma’am—“is your province having tax cuts in this year’s budget?” If they were, of course it weakens their arguments. Mr Tascona is the chief attacker of the federal government on the other side. The Reform Party must just love him up in the Barrie area because he blames the federal government for everything. I know he won’t take my time up.

Mr Joseph N. Tascona (Barrie-Simcoe-Bradford): Mr Speaker, on a point of order: My friend on the opposite side, as a point of privilege, shouldn’t get personal. He shouldn’t be naming the member.

The Acting Speaker: That’s not a point of order.

Mr Bradley: Thank you for taking my time up.

I remember, as the NDP does, and Rosario Marchese, the member for Fort York—it’s got a new name now; it used to be Fort York—really put forward all of the arguments Mike Harris used to make. I remember him in the House saying to Bob Rae not to whine. I remember my friend Gary Carr saying that; he gave an impassioned speech one day. I remember my friend Mr Stockwell doing the same thing. All of these people were eloquent in telling them, “Don’t blame somebody else.” Now we have taxpayers picking up a bill for anywhere from $3 million to $6 million for government advertising, paid for by tax dollars. Boy, could that money be used much better on health care than it could on self-serving ads.

I say you have an option. I’m for the Ted Arnott option which is, “Forget about the tax cuts and put the money into health care.” I’m all for that and I expect to see that in this budget.

Mr David Young (Willowdale): I rise to support this resolution. I do so in addition to a long list of other members who have spoken this morning, so I will make my remarks relatively brief. I want to say that the member for Waterloo-Wellington has distinguished himself yet again this day. He has in the past demonstrated that he is one of the most hard-working, decent and sincere young members in this Legislature, and I thank him for bringing forward this resolution at this time.

I listened to the comments from the other side of the floor, and I listened intently. It seems as though there are a number of concerns the members opposite have and they relate primarily to tax cuts. I want to quote from an

article that appeared in the Ottawa Citizen this week, April 11, 2000. This is an

article that quotes a gentlemen by the name of Robert Brown. I suspect the members opposite, particularly in the Liberal Party, will be familiar with Mr Brown because he is a tax specialist and in fact is a key adviser to the federal Department of Finance, according to this article, and I have no reason to doubt that is the case.

I’m not familiar with Mr Brown personally, but he seems to be a very insightful and intelligent individual. Mr Brown is quoted in this

article as saying the following: “Tax reduction and social programs like health care ‘aren’t enemies of each other,’ says Mr Robert Brown, a tax specialist and key adviser to the federal Department of Finance,” in Ottawa. He says, “‘We can maintain reasonable social programs at the same time that we reduce taxes.’” So it’s not a straight either/or, you do this or you do that. You can do both. Mr Brown gets it and the premiers of just about every other province in this country get it. Unfortunately, the members opposite do not.

Let’s talk about the facts. Let’s talk about what has occurred in this province over the last four and a half years, a period during which we have seen an unprecedented number of tax cuts, 99 in total. We have seen revenues increase, we have seen the provincial coffers fuller than they have ever been before, and we have seen considerably more spending on health care. The provincial government of Mike Harris has not only made up the billions of dollars that have been clawed back from the federal government, has not only made up the money that Mr Chrétien took back, but we have added to that and we’re now spending billions more on health care.

Let’s talk a little bit about how that money is being spent, because I know my friends opposite have some concerns in this regard, misguided as they may be. Let’s talk about the fact that there are three new cardiac centres underway in this province. Let’s talk about 25 dialysis centres throughout this province, so that people who require that service no longer have to travel the extensive distances they once did. Let’s talk about the fact that we have 36 MRIs on stream in this province. In my riding of Willowdale alone, we have two new MRIs that are being placed in the North York General complex.

Let’s talk about the fact that we have added more than 1,000 new drugs to the list of drugs that are available under the plans of this province over the past four and a half years.

When the members opposite, and occasionally even the Liberal Party members in Ottawa, have a moment of clarity, they talk about the fact that the direction we must travel is towards community care and home care. We know that. That’s part of our strategic plan. That’s why we have spent 49% more since 1995 on home care.

We also have, as I’m sure the members opposite and yourself will be interested to know, a telehealth program that is now available to members’ ridings in rural areas. We have a plan where we would like to see that extended further.

That’s what we’ve done with the money. I took solace from the fact—I’m very pleased that Mr Arnott has come forward today and has taken the time to canvass members of the medical community and members of this province who have some considerable relationship to health care. He has provided me with copies of the correspondence that has come back, that has emanated from these bodies. They all support his resolution, as do I.

The Acting Speaker: The member for Waterloo-Wellington has two minutes to conclude.

Mr Arnott: I first of all want to thank my Queen’s Park staff, Andrew Juby and Sheila Wilson, who have helped me prepare for this resolution today. I’d be remiss if I didn’t mention my constituency office staff, Mary Heffernan, Judy Brownrigg and Marnie Mainland, who helped me and do such a great job.

I want to thank those who have spoken to this resolution today: the members for Thunder Bay-Atikokan, Sault Ste Marie, Dufferin-Peel-Wellington-Grey, Scarborough-Agincourt, Trinity-Spadina, Thornhill, St Catharines and Willowdale. I appreciate all of your kind comments. I’m sure the ones from the opposition will appear in my campaign literature in three years’ time, so just be forewarned. Thank you very much.

Responding to a couple of the points that were made, first of all, the member for Thunder Bay-Atikokan talked about the tax point argument that the federal government has made in response to our point. I think the tax point argument has perhaps some merit, but it’s very limited merit. Nobody is arguing that tax points and cash transfers are the same thing. They’re not the same thing, clearly. I don’t think anybody says that the tax points, which were assigned last in 1977, have any real impact on federal funding today. The people of Ontario haven’t been fooled by that response by the federal government.

If there is any enhanced federal funding for health care, I agree completely that that money should be assigned to health services. A strong commitment by the government in that respect might help the federal government move in that direction.

The whole issue of tax cuts has come up again. The fact that this government has cut taxes, it has been suggested, has been a problem. But as we know, revenues have increased even as tax cuts have taken place.

Future funding from the provincial government: The provincial government is committed to future funding, a 20% increase over the next five years.

The Acting Speaker: The time for this ballot item has expired. We will now deal with ballot item number 15.

ONTARIO REALTY CORPORATION CLEAN UP ACT, 2000 loi de 2000 sur l’assainissement de la Société immobilière de l’ontario

The Acting Speaker (Mr Michael A. Brown): Mr Agostino has moved second reading of Bill 56,

An Act to amend the Capital Investment Plan Act, 1993 to ensure that the Ontario Realty Corporation awards contracts in a fair and public way / Projet de loi 56, Loi modifiant la Loi de 1993 sur le plan d’investissement pour veiller à ce que la Société immobilière de l’Ontario accorde des contrats de façon équitable et transparente.

Shall the motion carry?

All those in favour will say “aye.”

All those opposed will say “nay.”

In my opinion, the nays have it.

We will deal with this after we deal with ballot item number 16.

CANADA HEALTH AND SOCIAL TRANSFER

The Acting Speaker (Mr Michael A. Brown): Mr Arnott has moved private member’s resolution number 16.

Shall the motion carry? Carried.

Call in the members for a division. This will be a five-minute bell.

The division bells rang from 1200 to 1205.

ONTARIO REALTY CORPORATION CLEAN UP ACT, 2000 loi de 2000 sur l’assainissement de la Société immobilière de l’ontario

The Acting Speaker (Mr Michael A. Brown): All those in favour will stand and remain standing until the Clerk calls your name.

Ayes

Agostino, Dominic

Bartolucci, Rick

Boyer, Claudette

Bradley, James J.

Bryant, Michael

Caplan, David

Christopherson, David

Churley, Marilyn

Colle, Mike

Conway, Sean G.

Cordiano, Joseph

Di Cocco, Caroline

Dombrowsky, Leona

Duncan, Dwight

Gerretsen, John

Kormos, Peter

Kwinter, Monte

Lalonde, Jean-Marc

Levac, David

Marchese, Rosario

Martin, Tony

McLeod, Lyn

Parsons, Ernie

Patten, Richard

Peters, Steve

Phillips, Gerry

Pupatello, Sandra

Ramsay, David

Sergio, Mario

Smitherman, George

The Acting Speaker: All those opposed will stand and remain standing until their name is called.

Nays

Arnott, Ted

Baird, John R.

Barrett, Toby

Chudleigh, Ted

Clark, Brad

Coburn, Brian

Cunningham, Dianne

DeFaria, Carl

Dunlop, Garfield

Ecker, Janet

Elliott, Brenda

Flaherty, Jim

Galt, Doug

Gilchrist, Steve

Guzzo, Garry J.

Hastings, John

Hodgson, Chris

Hudak, Tim

Johns, Helen

Klees, Frank

Marland, Margaret

Martiniuk, Gerry

Mazzilli, Frank

Molinari, Tina R.

Munro, Julia

Mushinski, Marilyn

Newman, Dan

O’Toole, John

Ouellette, Jerry J.

Palladini, Al

Runciman, Robert W.

Sampson, Rob

Sterling, Norman W.

Stewart, R. Gary

Tascona, Joseph N.

Tilson, David

Tsubouchi, David H.

Turnbull, David

Wettlaufer, Wayne

Wilson, Jim

Wood, Bob

Young, David

Clerk of the House (Mr Claude L. DesRosiers): The ayes are 30; the nays are 42.

The Acting Speaker: I declare the motion lost.

It being after 12 of the clock, I adjourn this House until 1:30 of the clock this afternoon.

The House recessed from 1207 to 1330.

WEARING OF RIBBONS

Mr Michael Bryant (St Paul’s): On a point of order, Mr Speaker: Behind me are 40 people who have travelled across this province in support of Mothers Against Drunk Driving. Many of them are victims. They are here to send a message to everybody in the Legislature with respect to this important issue. I’m asking for unanimous consent so that all members of the House—I have some ribbons here for the government members—can wear ribbons in honour of these victims and in honour of Mothers Against Drunk Driving.

The Speaker (Hon Gary Carr): Is there unanimous consent? Agreed.

MEMBERS’ STATEMENTS

LOW WATER LEVELS

Mr Michael A. Brown (Algoma-Manitoulin): This afternoon I’m rising in the House to ask the Minister of Northern Development and Mines to take immediate action to assist the public and private marina operators in northern Ontario.

Water levels across northern Ontario, and in the Great Lakes especially, have fallen dramatically. Last year, water levels approached the 1964 low-water mark and evidence would suggest that this summer the levels will drop even further. The impact on the boating public will be significant. The impact on the northern economy will be severe.

The constituency of Algoma-Manitoulin is host to boaters from all parts of the Great Lakes. We welcome boaters from New York, Michigan, Ohio, Illinois, Wisconsin and Minnesota, among thousands of Canadians, and with good reason. The constituency borders the north shore of Lake Huron, the St Marys River and much of Lake Superior. In fact, the north shore of Lake Huron is reputed to host the finest fresh water sailing in the world. The low-water levels are making harbours from Killarney through St Joseph Island and Michipicoten difficult, and in some cases impossible, to use.

These marinas needs assistance to stay open. They need to be able to dredge. The Minister of Northern Development needs to address this very severe and critical situation immediately.

BAISAKHI

Mr Raminder Gill (Bramalea-Gore-Malton-Springdale): [Remarks in Punjabi]

Mr Speaker, sat sri akal, today is an important day in the Sikh calendar. Today Sikhs across the world celebrate Baisakhi. Baisakhi is a seasonal festival popular in Punjab, and now all over the world, which takes place on the first day of the solar month of Baisakh of the Indian calendar.

Traditionally the festival was celebrated as the harbinger of happiness and plenty, being closely connected with harvesting. On the first of the month of Baisakh in the year 1756 of the Bikrami calendar, the significance of this date and celebration changed.

The 10th Sikh guru, Guru Gobind Singh Ji, asked that Sikhs should make their way to the city of Anandpur Sahib in Punjab. At Kesgarh Fort a tent had been erected for the celebration. Before sunrise many thousands of people had arrived and gathered before the guru’s tent. The guru appeared before them and asked if there was any among them who would be prepared for the love of their faith to sacrifice their life. Five men came forward and offered themselves to the guru. They were clad in orange robes. The guru introduced them to the large gathering as the Panj Pyare, or five loved ones.

As the first Sikh member of this Legislature, it gives me great pleasure to stand in this House and recognize this important day. Please join with me in wishing all the members of the Sikh community a very happy Baisakhi.

[Remarks in Punjabi]

PROPERTY TAXATION

Mr James J. Bradley (St Catharines): Social and cultural clubs throughout the province have been hit with a dramatic increase in taxes as a result of the property tax assessment changes imposed by the Conservative government of Mike Harris. Their properties are now classified as strictly commercial rather than residential-commercial, as they were in the past.

The Ukrainian Black Sea Hall and Club Roma in St Catharines, the Croatian National Home in Welland and Club Italia in Niagara Falls are among the many victims of the new assessment rules, and as a result could see their taxes increase by anywhere from 100% to 300%.

These clubs provide a valuable service to our general community through the sharing of their arts, culture and educational services, and the maintenance and sharing of their history, heritage and traditions. The board of directors of these clubs are volunteers who devote countless hours of work to make their organization a positive contributor to the Niagara community by assisting youth, seniors and others.

As a result of the 1998 amendments made to the Assessment Act, many of these important and community-active cultural clubs are faced with this dramatic increase. I call on the Harris government to immediately rescind their vindictive and short-sighted assessment policy and to restore the rules that were in effect prior to the 1998 Assessment Act amendment to ensure that our many cultural organizations can continue to offer the unique and highly valued services that communities across Ontario have come to cherish and enjoy for many years.

EPILEPSY ONTARIO

Mrs Tina R. Molinari (Thornhill): Recently I had the pleasure to present, at the Thornhill provincial office of Epilepsy Ontario, a cheque representing a grant from the Ministry of Citizenship, Culture and Recreation. The grant money was part of this government’s violence against women prevention initiatives and will assist Epilepsy Ontario in the delivery of an interactive CD-ROM on violence prevention education for the benefit of women with epilepsy. The CD-ROM project, under the direction of John Phair, is entitled Breaking the Silence.

This CD-ROM will help women with this disability, who face physical communication and attitudinal barriers, to overcome these barriers by providing them with information resources, increasing their access to services and developing support networks. The material is based on the organization’s highly successful information kit Towards a New Millennium for Women Living with Epilepsy.

During my visit I also had the pleasure of meeting Nancy Kimura, who is the youth services administration assistant, and co-op student Sammy Ebrahimi from Thornlea Secondary School.

Dianna Findlay, provincial executive director of Epilepsy Ontario, is proud of the organization and its volunteers, who strive to lead in providing effective ways to learn about, understand and accept epilepsy and how to improve the quality of life for all those who are affected by this disorder. Epilepsy Ontario is the first organization of its kind to develop an interactive CD-ROM for a specific client group. I applaud Epilepsy Ontario for taking this bold initiative to make readily available this helpful information to women with epilepsy.

ONTARIO WHOLE FARM RELIEF PROGRAM

Mr Steve Peters (Elgin-Middlesex-London): I rise in the House today on behalf of the farmers of Ontario and to raise awareness of the total mismanagement of the Ontario whole farm relief program. This program has been a disaster from the outset. Applicants have been repeatedly harassed for additional information, have had incorrect cheques mailed to them, have had their money demanded back, and identical applications have come back with two different outcomes. The list goes on.

In fact, the guidelines for the 1998 fiscal year were not released and not made available until January 21, 2000, five months after the deadline for the applications. Neither the applicant nor the accountant had access to the criteria by which that application was being assessed. After two different sets of guidelines were released, and after the official version of the guidelines was finally published, it was painfully clear that they were written after the fact in an effort to thwart the appeals for review.

The massive confusion that surrounds this program has forced me to request the April 14, 1999 guidelines and the June 2, 1999 guidelines through freedom of information. But you know what? The Ministry of Agriculture has failed to comply with my request. A well-intentioned $100-million program is in disarray, to the detriment of the farmers who put the food on our tables. It is time for the minister to come clean and help the farmers of Ontario, not hinder them.

DAVID HEAD

Mr Tony Martin (Sault Ste Marie): I rise today to remember and give due respect to a very worthy civil servant over a long number of years of this province who passed away on March 31. David Head—

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon Gary Carr): Order. Member take a seat. Stop the clock, please.

The member is making a very important statement and the members will come to order. Everybody has had an opportunity to make a statement. It’s now the member for Sault Ste Marie’s turn. I’d appreciate it if the members would be polite so the people can hear his statement.

Sorry to interrupt. Start the clock back from the beginning, if we could.

Mr Martin: David Head, who served with the Ministry of Northern Development and Mines, was an exemplary employee and worker who consistently went above and beyond the call of duty.

I first encountered Dave on Manitoulin Island, as he lent support to a committee holding hearings on drug abuse. He was always helpful and pleasant to work with. I travelled with him for a number of weeks getting input on waste management recycling. He set up the meetings, made sure they were successful and finally authored the report. He was always professional, knowledgeable and easy to work with. He was the epitome of a good civil servant.

He also contributed in an important and significant way to the development and quality of life of our community. Whenever there was an event to organize, Dave was there, not for the glory or the recognition, but for the benefit to our community, to get the job done and the fun. Events like the Curling Briar and the Memorial Cup, and organizations like Search and Rescue were all made better by Dave’s contribution.

Finally, Dave was a wonderful father and husband and will be missed. He loved his family, and so to Lynda, Ken, Sandi, Cyndy, Kristina and Natalie I offer my deep sorrow and condolences. To Dave, wherever you are, you are missed.

VOLUNTEERS

Mr David Young (Willowdale): I rise today in honour of volunteer recognition week, which is being celebrated in communities across this country. In particular, I would like to recognize the dedicated volunteers who participate in the programs offered by the North York Seniors Centre in the riding of Willowdale.

This is a special week, when we show our appreciation to the millions of Canadians who volunteer in our communities and make them better places to live, work and raise a family. I believe that volunteering is one of the most fundamental acts of citizenship. It is a generous offering of time, an offering of skills and an offering of energy. Volunteerism is an extension of being a good, compassionate and caring neighbour. Through their efforts, volunteers shape and create communities, making our neighbourhoods more than just a collection of individual households.

For well over 20 years, the North York Seniors Centre has been an integral part of the Willowdale community. By caring and contributing to the community, the volunteers at the North York Seniors Centre are true community leaders who make a positive difference in many lives. Our government is proud to be partners with that institution in many initiatives.

I would like to commend their efforts and those of volunteers across this province and country. Our government recognizes that volunteers are truly our community leaders and a vital component to building a compassionate and caring society.

W.F. HERMAN SECONDARY SCHOOL

Mr Dwight Duncan (Windsor-St Clair): Earlier this week I had the opportunity to attend W.F. Herman Secondary School in Windsor and serve as principal for a day. Herman is a great school with a great history. I want to thank principal Pat Catton and his staff, the students and parents for inviting me to spend a day at their school.

I met many great teachers and students. Herman has an excellent academic and skills training program. I met a young man named Oshimogho Atogwe. This young man, a new Canadian of African heritage, has won a full athletic scholarship to attend Stanford University this fall and has consistently maintained a 91% average.

I met Dario Rossit, the coordinator of the Ontario youth apprenticeship program at Herman. One of his students, Braydon Uttley, will represent our area at the Canada-wide skills competition in May.

I spent the second period with Bob Lennie’s grade 10 Canadian history class. The students demonstrated an outstanding grasp of our province’s political institutions and history.

Gerry Strong, the school’s VP, shared with me the school’s code of conduct and talked to me at length about the various challenges the school faces. Mr Strong reminded me that only a small percentage of students pose difficulties. Absenteeism, as it is here in the House with the Premier, continues to pose a problem for many of these students.

I want to thank the students and staff at Herman for sharing their hospitality and good wishes with me.

TAXATION

Mr R. Gary Stewart (Peterborough): I would like to point out that over the past few years the socialist provincial governments of Canada, namely, Saskatchewan and British Columbia, have severely criticized Ontario for its leading initiatives on comprehensive tax relief. In combination with the Ontario Liberals and NDP, the essence of their criticism was that tax reductions of any kind are cruel, irresponsible and uncaring.

The voters of Ontario knew otherwise and now, in the year 2000, we can see the results of lower taxes. Ontario’s economy is booming and is being credited by the Calgary Herald for rejuvenating the