Manitoba Hansard — 23 February 1967 (Sitting 57, 28th Legislature, 1st Session)

28-1-57

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 8:00 o'clock, Thursday, February 23, 1967 MR: CHAIRMAN. The Member for Inkster. 1327 MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, when the House adjourned this afternoon I was discussing the question of the major parks in Greater Winnipeg and I had tried to indicate to the House that it took some time before the municipal people of Greater Winnipeg recognized that the Assiniboine and Kildonan Parks in particular were a Metro-wide responsibility and not a responsibility of the City of Winnipeg as such, and with this recognition, Mr.

Chairman, coincident with this recognition came unprecedented development and improvement in these municipal parks. I think that all of the members, as I said this afternoon, would agree that the Assiniboine Park Zoo is now a provincial showpiece, that the Assiniboine Park itself is a provincial showpiece; that the Kildonan Park improvements, the pavilion there, the swim ming pool and the Rainbow Stage are showpieces of this province and things which all of the people of the province benefit from and make use of; and I think that we have to recognize, Mr.

Chairman, that approximately half of the population of Manitoba resides. in the City of Winnipeg, and just because a park is located within the Metro Winnipeg boundaries doesn't make it any the less a Manitohan park. Just as the Provincial Government ass1lrnes respons-' ibilities for such areas as Falcon Lake and the Whiteshell, I suggest that when we recognize that there is a park located in the Metro area which properly can be designated or which can be properly characterized as a provincial park, that we should accept provincial responsibility for it, .and of course, Mr.

Chairman, I'm really talking about one thing and that is money. I think that we have all agreed that the rising municipal costs are something that have to be relieved against and I make no apology, Mr. Chairman, for making a special pitch for the residents of the City of Winnipeg where I think that they are pre'sently being inequitably treated.

I would say that in the area of parks that the City of Winnipeg taxpayers are in fact being inequitably treated and that it's time that the province tookthe load offthe Metro and municipal governments in this small way, and that is by assuming the costs of parks which can be properly characterized as provincial and which are located within the area of Metro Winnipeg. I think that this is an absolute necessity, Mr. Chairman.

It's a trite argument to say that these parks are used by everybody in the province; 1 would venture to say that when country people come into the province that some of the things that they are most apt to take advantage of are those two major parks. I think that when tourists come to the province that they are most apt to be directed towards these two - and I'm going to call them provincial parks. Now that being the case, Mr.

Chairman, and in order to avoid what I think will happen with these parks if we don't step in, and that is that they are going to have admission fees for these activities such as the zoo, such as the recreational facilities which are now available at the Kildonan Park, that unless the province assumes its proper responsibility the City of Winnipeg taxpayers are going to continue to bear what I consider to be an unfair burden. I think, Mr. Chairman, I'd like to make it plain that I don't think that I have any criticism as to the administration of these parks.

If the province saw fit to have the administration conti nue under the auspices of the Metropolitan Corporation of Greater Winnipeg, I think that they would continue to do a good job and to continue the job that they are now doing. On the other hand, if we feel - and I feel that those people who pay the costs or who assume the financial costs should also assume the administrative responsibility and make this part of the Honour able Minister's department for supervision by his department, I think that this would be equally good.

All I'm concerned with is that the ultimate responsibility will lie with the elected representatives of the people. Now this might cause some outcry from municipal politicians, from Metro politicians who may be narrow enough to say that you're taking our parks away from us. I say that the people on Metro Council should, by experience, know that this is not a valid position because they've had to listen to some of that from the municipal councils for the last six years.

I think that they should be broad enough to know that it will be of benefit to the entire area if there is a provincial responsibility for the continued progress of these parks, and I would urge the Minister to consider that there are parks in the area of Metro Winnipeg which are properly provincial responsibility and for which the provincial responsibility should bear the financial responsibility and that we should move in this direction. I have some remarks to make,Mr. Chairman, on the subject of community centres.

1318 February 23, 1967 (MR. GREEN cont'd) ..... I think that when the Honourable Member for Assiniboia indicated that some of the people in the country don't have the same opportunities with regard to com munity centres as people in the city, I think that this statement could go further, that some of the people in some areas of the city don't have the same opportunities with regard to the use of community club facilities as people in other areas of the city, and it so happens, Mr.

Chairman, not by design but for historical-reasons that those areas that need the community centres most are often the areas who are most deprived of being able to sponsor that kind of a facility, because the less affluent areas of the city are usually the oldest areas of the city and it's the oldest areas of the city where the development took place without allowing for community centre locations, so that one would have to now buy up developed property in order to supply community clubs. I know that in the constituency of the Honourable Member for St.

John's, which is the constituency which I reside in, there are no community clubs. I'm quite sure that there are no community clubs in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Burrows, and the same is true, Mr. Chairman, for areas such as Point Douglas, areas immediately south of the CPR tracks, and these are all areas where the need is very very great for community clubs.

I'm not going to say the need is any greater than the need is in the suburban areas where they have provided these things, where the people may be more affluent or in River Heights, but the need is at least as great and it's impossible to say -as has been said in the past - ''Well, it's the responsibility of the people in the area to build a community club." They just can' t do it. First of all, the land isn't available as it was to the people who moved in to suburban areas or as it was to the people who moved into River Heights; and secondly, they don't have the resources.

They are people generally in lower economic circumstances who can't provide that kind of facility. So I don't say that this is a simple problem, Mr. Chairman, it's a difficult problem.

It's not one that's going to be solved on the municipal level, and if my honourable friend is concerned that young children growing up in Metro Winnipeg have the opportunities that these community clubs undoubtedly give, then I ask him to look at this situation and see whether or not the province can do something to bring these areas, not into a preferred position but into an equal position to the people in other areas, particularly, Mr. Chairman, in the area imm ediately north and south of the CPR tracks where there are large residential communities whose children need community clubs.

These have not been available, through no fault of any body but for historical reasons, and I'm asking the Minister to look at those historical reasons, reverse them and do something. The last item was touched on, Mr. Chairman, by one of the-previous speakers and that is with regard to road signs. I think, Mr. Chairman, that the situation in the Province of Manitoba -and I'm not directing my criticism at the provincial authorities -but the situation in the Province of Manitoba with Greater Winnipeg, Metro and the various municipalities, is that we have one of the worst road sign situations, Mr.

Chairman, that I've been able to come across. I may say that I do a lot of travelling by automobile, particulary in some of the United States cities, and the signs are so designed as to make it impossible for a person who even knows nothi ng about the area to be able to find his way. I think that in Greater Winnipeg and parts of Manitoba we have almost the reverse. We have the signs located and designated in such a way as to confuse people who do know the area. Now, Mr.

Chairman, one of the examples is the various different types of signs that are put up in Metro Winnipeg, first by the municipal authorities , by the provincial authorities and by the Metro authorities. Another example is, Mr. Chairman, that somehow our sign placers have the continued habit of putting a turn sign beyond the intersection. I know that in the United States or in other cities which have done this properly, invariably before you come to an inter

section you have a sign which says: Next Exit or Next Right is Hudson Street or whatever street it's going to be --(Interjection)--GreenAcres. That's a good place. In our area, Mr. Chairman, invariably the sign is located after the intersection so that you have to see the sign ahead of you before you come to the intersection.

One obvious example which I would ask the Ministers to look at is Highway 59 coming towards Winnipeg, driving from Highway No. 4 - that is coming from the Whiteshell back to Winnipeg down Highway 59 -before you come to the Perimeter Highway there is no sign telling you that you can go to Winnipeg. There are signs telling you that you can go to St. Boniface; there are signs telling you that you can go to Lockport; going south you have a sign which says "next right Lockport, " but there is no sign which says that you can reach Winnipeg via North Main by turning right onto the Perimeter Highway.

I just think it is inconceivable, 'Mr. Chairman, that a city of 450, 000 people is not

February 23, 1967 1329 (MR. GREEN cont'd) ..... desig.1ated as being very close to a person who doesn't know the area, so that a person coming down 59, let us say from the east and driving south, does not know that he can make a simple right turn over the Perimeter Highway which is of course a facility which was designed for that purpose, and get to Winnipeg via North Main. Of course I have a special interest in this, Mr.

Chairman, this will bring some of the people who come to Winnipeg through North Winnipeg, down Main St. through North Winnipeg, otherwise if they come from the east and don't know Winnipeg is a stone's throw from the direction they are driving in, they have to come into Winnipeg through St. Boniface and the Constituency of Radisson, which is all very welL All we want to know is that there is a chance for them to come through North Winnipeg and that hasn't been the case, so I don't know whether it has been corrected. Mr.

Chairman, I don't want to deal with individual signs except for the purpose of get ting at a position, and my position is this - I don't know whether it's the case, but there should be some sort of provincial highway signing authority and this authority, Mr. Chairman, should have veto power over every type and kind of sign and the places where they are put throughout Manitoba.

That includes the City of Winnipeg, that includes other areas, but they should - I'm not suggesting that they place every sign - but they should set the policy; they should be directing the kind of signs, the nature of signs, the place of signs and then, Mr. Chairman, we will be able to gather together under the Provincial Government the best people in the field and we won't have to be dealing with mediocre people in numerous different local municipal constituencies. MR. JOHNSON: Inkster to Gimli. MR. GREEN: Inkster to Gimli - that's fine.

My honourable friend can take that under consideration, especially with the new facilities that are going to be at Gimli. In any event, Mr. Chairman, what I'm driving at and I hope I'm not belabouring it, is that there should be a provincial authority, that this provincial authority should be able to bring some chaos out of -- some reasonable --(Interjection)-- MR. GREEN: ...•.. to bring some method under the existing madness. MR. DOW: My first words, Mr.

Chairman, are congratulations to the Minister and his department for putting out this handbook and I'm hoping that the circulation will be large through out the various provinces of Canada and the states of the United States, because I think this fills a long felt want.

I was interested this afternoon in the discussion particularly of the liquor law in uniform ity, and then I pick up this book, and while the Minister can say to me, "well this is not our particular effort, " I'm thinking that it could be an effort of his department to show some leader ship through the Retail Merchants Association to get a uniform day of closing. If he will take a look at the list on Pages 12, 13 and 14, you will find this, that on Monday there are 96 towns closed on Monday; on Tuesday there are none; on Wednesday 46 and on Thursday 88; and on Saturday 10 to 12.

Now in the constituency of Turtle Mountain, which is the second largest influx of tourists coming into Manitoba through that constituency, this is the common complaint. If they're going to move to various towns to, say, shop - and this primarily is why we are re questing tourism· into our province is to expand our economy - the first thing they try to find out is what place is closed and what isn't, and I think this would be quite an incentive to en courage tourism in Manitoba if we had a uniform day.

I realize that we don't want to encroach on the fact of saying well this could be dictatorship, this is what you've got to do, but I think that somewhere along the line the department could set up some kind of direction - suggestion, that we could get a little closer to uniformity thr oughout the province. There's another very disturbing point and here again I would ask the department to try and correct - and here again they might say well this is not our responsibility - but I think it all adds up to tourism in the province.

You will notice that we only have two ports - one port that is opened 24 hours a day from the United States and another one that is opened partially 24 hours and that's the one at the Pe ace Gardens - and this creates a certain problem in that there is not too much advertising as to the time it's closed. Now I know that various Chambers of Commerce and various councils have requested that this be kept open 24 hours and the Canadian customs are quite in agreement to it, but the difficulty seems to be that the American people are not too suggestive to the idea.

But here's a point that I think this could improve because through our No. 10 highway the movement of hunters to the north coming through there , and some of them are discouraged by the fact in the fall they come there and the port is closed. These are two points that I can't criticize the government on, but I think possibly the department

1330 February 23, 1967 (MR. DOW cont'd) ....• could show some leadership to try and get it straightened around. Some mention has been made in regard to physical directors in the various communities. Our problem in the smaller communities is the fact that it is somewhat difficult to finance the full-time operation of a professional physical director, but it could be quite easily handled if the division schools did have physical directors in their schools and these chaps could be hired on an extra curricula basis after school hours.

It seems somewhat difficult to get this arrived at, because as an example I'll show you one community that has applied for a physical fitness grant, that the. monies that the local people have subscribed for equipment, transportation and uniforms all to take care of the younger children -I'm talking now of the juveniles and the midgets and these sort of chaps and girls - something like $22, 000 was spent by a local com munity, and yet it is a difficult problem to get enough money to hire a professional physical director.

Some type of co-operation between the schools and the local communities I think would be an incentive to organize this on a much better basis than it is at the present time, and all to the benefit of the people to have more directives, more professional and organized physical fitness programs. ' I looked through the booklet and I am most happy that this has been produced this year. It is going to be an added incentive to people coming into our province and I just hope the circulation is wide enough that more people can take advantage of it.

One other question I would like the Minister when he answers is to answer the question -- I know some local com munities have taken advantage of it in producing certain brochures for their own use for the at traction of tourism to their own local particular areas.

The department through the years have been very co-operative to assist these communities in laying out the design, the formats and so on, and I'm hoping that this will continue and that there will be more communities take advantage of this, because in addition to the province setting out their advertising and such, the local communities can do a lot and I think a lot of them will if they get the incentive to do it. MR. DONALD W. CRAIK (S t. Vital): Mr. Chairman, I'd like to say a few words at this time. First of all, I would like to wish the Minister well with his new Department of Tourism and Recreation.

As we know, it hasn't been operational a year yet and we are certainly expect ing great things from it in the future. Certainly the whole topic of tourism is one that is of great interest to us as Canadians and as Manitobans, and as we realize that the great outdoors holds greater and greater appeal for the urban areas to the south of us, we know very well that it is an industry that in itself is going to flourish in Canada.

A couple of years ago - just as an introduction to what I wanted to say -a couple of years ago I spent some time in Boston and while there took the regular tour around the city and to the historic sites that exist in that city, and I recall in one particular spot going into a house that was located on an older street in the city and the turnstiles were set up and people by the thousands - literally thousands were going through this house to look at the house itself and the remnants which were located in it.

Now if you look at the house that belonged to a man by the name of Paul Revere and if you look at his historical contribution to the United States, you realize that his main achievement was to have gotten on the back of a horse and carried a lantern about two miles and climbed to the top of a church steeple and hung the lantern up so somebody else could see it. MR . T. P. HILLHOUSE, QC (S elkirk): What about Lady Godiva? MR.

CRAIK: Well that's an even better one, and I think it goes to prove what some of our counterparts to the south have done with some very fairly minor historical bits of history compared to some of the real gems of history that we have sitting in our own backyard and which seem to in some cases have gone unnoticed, so I am sure that if a man can ride horse back for two miles and carry a lantern to the top of a church steeple, that we might well pay more tribute to some of our local colorful history.

Now the one in particular that I have in mind and that I wanted to set this background for of course is the one that I mentioned in my first speech in the House here, the former St. Vitaller by the name of Louis Riel. At that time I mentioned that Louis Riel's original home still existed in the City of St.

Vital, and to get to the nub of the story, I would really like to stand at this time and make recommendation to the Minister of this new department that one of the priority considerations be towards preserving his original home which is over 100 years old now, and having it restored to its original shape and marked as an historical site. Now I know this has been given consideration probably along the way but the fact of the matter is that nothing has ever been done about it, and if we continue to do nothing about it or if the

February 23, 1967 1331 (MR. CRAIK cont'd) ....• various bodies continue to do nothing about it, then it is likely it will disappear like many other landmarks can disappear. So what I would really like to do, this being our centennial year and with Manitoba's own 100th birthday only three years away, begin immediately or as soon as we possibly can to work towards, first of all, establishing this as an historical site.

We can do this through the several bodies -t here is the Historic Sites and Monuments Board of Canada which first of all is prob ably the best one since they have money in their coffers as well to help out with this sort of thing, and with the Provincial Government's assistance and with the city of St. Vital's assistance. plus any other bodies that wish to help out on a project such as this.

In a way it is amazing that this has not come up during the centennial year or hasn't come up sooner than this, but I would think there must be a great many Manitobans who would very much like to see something done about it before Manitoba's own 100th birthday, and I'm sure that if we were to get a move on that we could probably still do this. This probably points out the fact that we haven't done that much to commemorate Louis Riel. I think one of the honourable members earlier today said that we have no statue of him on the Legislative grounds and we have statues of many other people.

I'm not necessarily suggesting that there should be one, but in many respects the present generation coming up and coming out of our schools, and the generations that will follow, are likely to look on this particular person as the most colorful person in western Canada's history and I think that the past generation has not done this. I think they have primarily been too close to the fact and they have not been able to place him in the proper perspective of history.

So what I am suggesting is that if we start now, I think we will be doing the generations that follow a great service if we can make sure that this old original homesite - and this is well documented - incidentally, I think all the members probably have at some time or other seen this book that is published, "City of the Rivers, " and there is a sketch of the old home in the back of it here and it's well authenticated.

As a matter of fact, the archivist was out to visit this old home I think about a year ago and he and another fellow in going through it noticed a hatch in the r'?of of the second storey and they asked if they could go in, and the lady incidentally who is still Mrs.

Riel that lives there - her father was Louis Riel's brother's son, in other words her husband is his nephew she still lives there and has lived there since 1920 -they asked her if they could look around and she said it's too dirty up there, but they went up and they came out with a sheaf of letters, you know, several inches thick and these are now located in the library right next door here and this just -- between these letters and the other items of history that are around there is no doubt but what this is his original home and the Riel family has occupied it ever since it was built.

So what I would like to say in conclusion is that I would like to recommend to the Minister of the new department that this may receive priority consideration of any project that he may be considering, either as a tourist site or as a historical site. MR . CHAffiMAN: The Honourable Member for Gladstone. MR. SHOEMAKER: I wonder if my honourable friend who just took his seat would permit a question. Would he enlighten the House as to where the booklet "The City of the Rivers" emanated from?

Could he tell the House so that .• (Interjection) Well, for the information of all the new members I think it would be just as well that we go on record now as to what publi cation it is and where it came from. MR. CRAIK: Well the front cover, the sketching is dated 1956 on the front here. It's put out by the Department of Industry and Commerce of the Provincial Government. MR. SHOEMAKER: Who was the Minister of Industry and Commerce in that day and age? MR.

CRAIK: If I can read you - "Published by The Bureau of Travel and Publicity, Department of Industry and Commerce, Legislative Building, Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada. Honourable Gurney Evans, Minister. " MR. SHOEMAKER: Mr.

Chairman, I want to inform the House now, I don't know whether you know or not, but the Honourable Gurney Evans was not Minister of Industry and Commerce in 1956, just for the information of the members, and as I recall the publication - and I have several copies of it in my own office - several copies of it and it's a good publica tion, as my honourable friend has said, but I think it was Bud Jobin that put out that publication and it has not changed in one word since that time and if my honourable --it has changed in one word; certainly it's changed in one word because my honourable friend put his name on it.

MR. EV ANS: The name of the Minister changed.

1331 Febrtiary 23, 1967 MR . SHOEMAKER: It is changed but all they changed was they changed the Minister's name and they used the same book. Now having got that record straight, I would like to proceed on the estimates. (Interjec tion) Would my honourable friend the Leader of the New Democratic Party like a copy with Bud Jobin's name on it, because if he would, I'll be glad to supply it to him. MR . PAULLEY: If I may, Mr. Chairman, may I suggest the Honourable Member for Gladstone might be able to supply everyone in the House with one that has the former Minister Bud Jobin's name on it. MR .

SHOEMAKER: Well, I will see what I can do in that regard. My guess is that this administration has destroyed all the copies with Bud Jobin's name on it, but if I can obtain 57 copies I think I can get them autographed with Bud Jobin's name on them for the members of the House. Now Mr. Chairman, I guess that I should congratulate the new Minister on his double po rtfolio -"-(Interjection)-- triple portfolio is it? Quadruple portfolio?

Well, I only hope that he doesn't think that he's entitled to three times the Minister's salary by virtue of the fact that he does hold a quadruple or a triple portfolio, but I do wish him every success and I want to give him a little bit of advice, the same kind of advice that I gave to the former Minister, and maybe it is because the former Minister of this department held a triple portfolio, maybe it is because of that fact that tourism has not developed to the extent that it should have developed.

Like a lot of other departments, it has lagged away behind the national average despite what my honourable friends say, and if I have said this once in the House I guess I've said it eight times, because this is eight years that I'm here--(Interjection)-- nine years? Nine years and how many sessions? We've had about 13 sessions, too, in nine years in order to pay some of the backbenchers an additional indemnity, but I'm not going to talk about that one now because I gave them a lecture on that a year ago. But Mr.

Chairman, you and I both benefitted by those special sessions to the tune of about $200. 00 a day at the last one; but the thing that is disturbing to me and certainly must be disturbing to the new Minister is this, and I want to refer him to the Annual Report of the Department of Industry and Commerce for 1963, and 1963 on Page 32 -I'm making it most convenient for my honourable friend - and on Page 32 it sets out the total number of tourists and the total tourist expenditures in Manitoba by year, unlike a lot of other statistics that my honourable friends just love to produce, because they do like to go back to 1958, isn't it?

Well this one goes back to 1950 for some mysterious reason or other; and in 1950 --Mr: Chairman, I wonder if my honourable friend has this wonder ful document in front of him? You don't? Well, surely you can get a copy from the former Minister because in 1950 it says that there were in fact 581, 000 tourists visited Manitoba in that historic year, and they spent $22 million. How much per tourist does that represent? Surely my honourable friend, who has a much better education than I, will know that it amounts to about $38. 00 per tourist, doesn't it? Closely to that anyway. MR .

PAULLEY: Give or take a few bucks. MR. SHOEMAKER: Give or take a few cents? Give or take a few cents? Do you know what it was in this year of our .Lord 1966? Less than that. Less than that per tourist, and in the interval, in the 16 or 17 years, our dollar has depreciated and so once again I'm inclined to say, as I've said eight or 14 times before, depending on the number of sessions we've had, it appears, it appears that the tourists that are visiting our province come in here with a ten dollar bill and one shirt and they go back without changing either one of them. That's what it looks like.

Because if they're only spending, and according to my honourable friend and one of the most recent sheets that has emanated from the Department of Propaganda --(Interjec tion)-- the red ones or the orange ones. The orange edition, and this one is dated July 29, 1966 and headed "Record Tourist Year in Sight for Manitoba. Tourism and Recreation Minis ter Honourable Sterling Lyon; Q. C. said that 1966 should be the best season ever, topping last year's record of 1, 650, 000 visitors who spent" - how much do you think? - "an estimated $49. 5 million. " MR. PAULLEY: Before taxes or after? MR.

SHOEMAKER: How much - my honourable friend the Leader of the NDP Party is most helpful -- how much, how much per tourist does this amount to? One million, six hundred and fifty thousand visitors spent, according to my honourable friend, $49 million. It's less than $30.00 isn't it? It's less than thirty. It's less than $30.00 per tourist, and in 1950 they spent $38. 00. Now what is going on? Why is it that people just enter the province at one corner and whistle through it as fast as they can to get right through it, only spending

February 23, i967 1333 (MR. SHOEMAKER cont'd) ..... less now, by far, than they did 16 or 17 years ago? How do you account for that, Mr. Chairman? Mr. Chairman, you live right up close to the Saskatche wan border. Surely you could do something to persuade some of the people that are coming in here from Saskatchewan to linger longer in Manitoba. That's a good slogan. Linger longer in the keystone province. That's what I say. They're not spending half as much time this year or last year they didn't - as they did 16 or 17 years ago, and they're not spending as much money.

Now I would like my honourable friend to try and explain that away to the satisfaction of the members on this side of the House. Now on the other side of the House they don't need much explanation. The backbenchers generally go for everything that the frontbenchers say anyway. I hear a ha-ha over there and that suggests to me that they don't. Now, Mr. Chairman, nearly every member that has got up now has pointed to this wonderful document, "Manitoba's Vacation Handbook, " and said what a wonderful thing that was. It's a cheap one, in my way of thinking.

It's a cheap got-up kind of a publication, and knowing full well that we would be reaching the Department of Tourism tonight I went down stairs to the Department of Tourism or whatever you call it down here at the foot of the stairs - Information? Tourist Information? - and I picked up information on every single province in the Dominion of Canada and this is the cheapest looking one of the bunch. Well it's a fact. I've got them all here in front of me and if my honourable friend is not familiar with them come on over and I'll show them to him.

He should pay, he should pay a visit to the department down stairs and examine this one and compare it to the other publications that are made available. Now my honourable friend, the Member for St. Vital, has raised a very good point and one that I have been raising here for eight years - and I'm not boasting when I make a statement of this kind. I have personally travelled through 49 of the 50 states in America and -which one did I miss? Oregon. MR. DESJARDINS: Why? MR. SHOEMAKER: Why? That's another subject. And what my honourable friend the Member for St. Vital said is quite true.

You can hardly go a mile but what you see a historical marker and some of the people stop and read them. My honourable friend did and I do; I stop and read a few of them. And if you stop and read a few of them in the day, what does it result in? You stay overnight in that province and that's not what they're doing here in Manitoba. You better linger a little longer in Manitoba. Now Mr. Chairman, on Page -- do you know what? This wonderful handbook hasn't even got the pages numbered. It starts at Page 3, ••. A MEMBER: Some of the numbers rubbed off. MR .

SHOEMAKER: It's so cheap apparently the numbers have all rubbed off. But look at-- on Page 2, I guess, because it's the one before Page 3, there's a picture of a young cowboy there entering the stone gate from Upper Fort Garry ''built in 1821, still stands in Winnipeg. " Where? I said last year there isn't one percent of the people in Manitoba that know where that gate is. Do you remember when I said that? My honourable friend the Pro vincial Treasurer remembers me making that comment.

There isn't half of the people in this Legislative Assembly that knows where that is, and this book does not tell you where it is either, and there's lots of people in my constituency and every other one in this province that doesn't know where the Stone Gate is --(Interjection)-- Well, you can answer the question when you get up. If my honourable friend the Leader of the New Democratic Party knows where it is, he's one, one of the few that knows where it is, but it just points up what my honourable friend the Member for St.

Vital has already said, we need more posters pointing out these historical points of interest. I see my honourable friend the Minister of Municipal Affairs - I believe that she has now acquired a new title -but you remember me saying last year that I was concerned over the fact that here in Manitoba we have the only desert in Canada - this is what both of the daily newspapers said - Manitoba has the only desert in Canada. I have visited it on three or four different occasions and I have some beautiful coloured slides of the desert. MR . HANUSCHAK: The government at Ottawa won't let you go there. MR.

SHOEMAKER: Well wait. I have some beautiful slides of the desert and it is a place that is worthwhile visiting and I recommend it to every member of the House. But as my honourable friend has pointed out, they warn you with about four different signs that you had better not go there because you may get your head blown off. I took the chance, Mr. Chairman - I don't know whether you have or not - and I drove right by those signs and I went in there and I think it is.' ...

1334 February 23, 1967 MRS. FORBES: Lawbreaker. MR. SHOEMAKER: Lawbreaker - maybe I am - maybe I am a lawbreaker, but what I say is .•.. MR. DESJARDINS: Pioneer. MR. SHOEMAKER: Why is it we have both of the daily papers pointing out, weekend editions, saying here is Canada's only desert. Do you know, Mr. Chairman, I don't know whether you have ever visited Canada's only desert or not -I don't suppose that you have. A MEMBER: Where is it? MR. SHOEMAKER: Where is it? Where is Canada's only desert. Doesn't that point up some of the weaknesses of my honourable friend the Minister of Tourism?

They don't even know themselves where it is. Ask the papers - ask the Free Press or the Tribune - they know where it is because they have written a full page ad on Canada's only desert, and if you don't kn ow where it is - my honourable friends - I'll take them out there and show them. I'll show them the

article that they wrote if they like. But let's advertise some of these things and let's get people to linger longer in Manitoba. That's what I'm saying. MRS. FORBES: Do you want them to get their heads blown off? MR. SHOEMAKER: Well surely to goodness some steps can be taken to persuade the Federal Government to allow tourists to go in there. MRS. FORBES: Would the honourable member permit a question? MR. SHOEMAKER: Any number. MRS. FORBES: That's just fine, because we could have a nice conversation. Do you want to close Camp Shilo in Manitoba? MR. SHOEMAKER: Do I want to close Camp Shilo? MRS.

FORBES: Yes, do you want to close Camp Shilo? That' s why we can't use the desert. The Honourable Member from Neepawa should know this and he shouldn't be making statements in this House. Listen, you gave me the floor, would you please sit down. -- (Inter jection) --Yes, you did. MR. SHOEMAKER: I'm waiting for the question. MRS. FORBES: All right, stand up. One of us has to sit down but you may have the floor - it's yours if you want it -b ut I did want to tell you that it's not possible for us to have the desert. If we did have it, and I'm sure you do know, that Camp Shilo would be taken away from here.

We did try when we tried to get that park ••.•. to see if we couldn't have that desert. MR. SHOEMAKER: I just don't know exactly what the question was. I now will refer to a map that I picked up from the Province of Manitoba, and in addition to a picture of my honourable friend the Minister of Highways and his smiling countenance, right there it says, "Welcome to Manitoba" - Welcome to Manitoba - and do you know what it says down here? I thought it was referring to Canada's only desert. Did my honourable friend write this, or did he not write it, or who was the editor of this? It's signed "Walter P.

Weir, Minister of Highways" and it says, "For vacationers and sportsmen alike, Manitoba has a tremendous range of topography in which to relax, hunt and fish from the broad expanse of the prairie grain land to the beautiful rock, lake and forest areas in the mining regions of the north. Provincial Park developments range in location from the Virden tree- lined pre cambrian lakes in the Whiteshell Forest Reserve to the arid expanses of a desert park in central Manitoba sandhills. " Now where is it? It is not the one that I referred to at all eh? That is we have two deserts in Manitoba then?

Where is the other one, Mr. Chairman? This talks about a desert in central Manitoba's sandhills. Now my honourable friend is advertising it here. My honourable friend the Minister of Municipal Affairs says, ' 'Don't go near it or you will get your head shot off. " MRS. FORBES: You can if you want to. MR. SHOEMAKER: Well but what is the point? What is the point? Here is my honour able friend the Minister of Highways saying come and see us sometime and the Honourable Minister of Municipal Affairs says, "no you can' t. " Now let's get together on this.

Let's have a big three conference and maybe -maybe we could go over Thelma's bridge on the way down and we could look that over on the way down. MRS. FORBES: You sure don't know your geography. MR. SHOEMAKER: The Minister of Municipal Affairs says I don't know my geography. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please. I think we have spent about enough time on comedy. I wonder if the Member •...

February 23, 1967 1335 MR. SHOEMAKER: On w:mt? MR. CHAIRMAN: On comedy. Would the Member proceed? MR . SHOEMAKER: Very good, I'm proceeding but I'll tell you --what I have been attempt ing to point up, Mr. Chairman is this, that in 1950 the tourists were spending considerably more dollars per tourist than they are in this day and age. My honourable friend the new Minister of this department is shaking his head in the negative. I'm quoting his figures. I'm quoting his figures. Then what he is saying is his figures are wrong; he made an error. MR. JOHNSON: It's the old mathematics. MR .

SHOEMAKER: It's the old type of mathematics. I see. Well, that reminds me of the story of the ready reckoner and I don't think I'll tell it to the House now, but what I'm say ing is that it is last year's ready reckoner and if you've got a new one out this year, well let's have it. Mr. Chairman, an

article put out just about a year ago by Kit Kitney -and he does quite a bit to advertise the province and entice tourists and sportsmen to this province -my honour able friend knows him quite well I'm sure, and under the heading "Manitoba is Ignoring Their Own Province, " he says, "Who sees Manitoba first or who knows it best? Not Manitobans, that's for sure, " he says, and he goes on with a whole story and he says that Manitobans are the last ones to see their own province.

Now who was it over here today that said --my honourable friend the Member for Elm wood said that it appears that no effort has been made by the department or anyone else as far as that goes to encourage Manitobans to see Manitoba first.

Well I have been encouraged by several of the backbenchers -certainly not by the frontbenchers but by the backbenchers -to give a travelogue on my recent trip to New Zealand and Australia and I'm not going to do it now, but there are things that I observed over in New Zealand and Australia and Tasmania that this government would be well advised to look into, and one of them is this whole idea of encourag ing people to see their own province in their own area first.

As a result of their advertising in New Zealand and Australia, my wife and I took some of these 2 and 3 and 4 day tours and it is a wonderful way to see the country. I can't understand why Greyhound bus lines and some of the other bus lines within the province have not designed 2 and 3 and 4 and 5 or 6 or 7 day tours of our province. Why haven't they? --(Interjection)--Pardon? But who has taken them? I think the government should encourage, not only encourage people from outside of the prov ince to linger longer as I said, but encourage people within the province to see Manitoba first.

Now they are not doing it and Canadians by and large, according to an

article that I have before me here put out by the Canadian Imperial Bank of Commerce -one of their commercial letters that I believe are put out monthly, I get one from every one of them -but they have a challenging statement here in which they say that travel is our third largest source of foreign exchange, that wheat comes first and newsprint next and travel next.

This is what they say, so it's a pretty important kind of an industry I would say, but they go on to say, "It is interest ing to note that while travel receipts from United States amounted to $589 million in 1964, ex penditures by Canadians in United States amounted to $483 million. " They have got 10 to 1 in population and so it ends up by saying this, "It is interesting to note that while travel receipts from United States amounted to $589 million in 1964, expenditures by Canadians in the United States amounted to $483 million during that year.

While it is reasonable to assume that a number of the visits by Canadians are non -vacation visits, nonetheless, the average per capita spending by Canadians fu the United States which in 1964 amounted to $25. 00 and the average spending by Americans in Canada which during the same year just exceeded $3. 00, offers a strong challenge to the Canadian Tourist industry to work towards closing the gap" -closing the gap -" between $3.00 and $25. 00". Well that is a challenge, isn't it? That's a big gap - that's what I say -and we are not doing enough. Mr. Chairman, I have an

article here and surely everyone has read this, Winnipeg Free Press, Thursday, June 16, 1966, headed: ''Roblin is Keen on Tourism." No doubt he is, but are we doing enough towards this end? Mr. Roblin said, "We are very keen on tourism, " he told the Kildonan --(Interjection)--This is the First Minister -the First Minister saying - "Mr. Roblin confined himself to extolling the virtues of the park. " This is the park out at Birds Hill that my honourable friend the new Minister said -do you remember, Mr.

Chair man -said last year that it might be interesting to note that a person could in 15 minutes from the corner of Portage and Main go out and drown his sorrows or something and be alone with his thoughts -be alone with his thoughts in 15 minutes, he said -and he said that you could accomplish this feat out at Birds Hill Park and he felt that it was worthwhile spending these

1336 February 23, 1967 · (MR. SHOEMAKER cont'd) ••... million dollars on Birds Hill Park because in 15 minutes you could go out there and get alone with your thoughts. Well, maybe so, but to get back to the First Minister and to quote him, he said, "We are very keen on tourism, " he told the Kildo nan Rally in the Munroe Junior High School auditorium: "Our tourist industry is expanding faster than that of any other province." Faster than any other province. He didn't say "in the Dominion of Canada." When did he say it? On June 16th last, and I wonder whether that is an accurate statement.

Is it an accurate statement? And where does my honourable friend spend his holidays, I wonder? Does he spend them principally in Manitoba? And I understand there's one or two of the Ministers who have a summer cottage in Ontario and spend most of their holidays in Ontario. Is this a fact or isn't it a fact? It's a fact. Well, Mr. Chairman, another matter that I want to touch on- and again points up what my honourable friend the Member for St.

Vital has said - is that we do want to pay some atten tion and certainly pay more attention than we have in the past, on this whole field of historical sites, historical markers. We've got lots of them in the province; lots of them. Another

article I have before me dated May 20, 1966, written by a former Minister of this House, Mr. Steinkopf, and he says: "Government money is seen for historical sites. " I want to ask my honourable friend if this is a fact. "Mr. Steinkopf, who will ask the Cabinet for an allocation, called it a fantastic idea." Thftt's what Steinkopf said - this historical sites movement - and he goes on to say, and this is all in quotes: "It's about time we did something about it. I don't know of any place as barren as we are in Western Canada. Surely we've got just as much as others.

" Steinkopf speaking, not members opposite the government. Steinkopf says he doesn't know of any place in Canada that's as barren of historical markers as Manitoba. What's my honourable friend going to do about it? And surely now, Mr. Chairman, my honourable friend the Minister will get up and tell us what he is going to do about some of the recommendations that were made by the backbenchers of the government and the former Cabinet members of the House. What's he going to do about the challenge that he has offered to him? . . . . . . continued on next page

February 23, 1967 1337 MR . SAUL MILLER (Sever�. Oaks): Mr. Chairman, it's difficult to follow that act so I'm not going to try. There was one statistic that hit me very hard though, the one referring to the dollars spent per tourist in Manitoba in 1965 as compared to the dollars spent in 1950. Apparently the tourists come in here in greater volume but they seem to go through the province much faster, and I'm wondering whether it's because since 1958 the roads are such that they can get through faster. I'd like to congratulate the Minister on this new department.

There's no doubt that the tourist situation in Manitoba is not the best. There's also no doubt that something must be done to try and attract this type of dollar into Manitoba. It's the type of dollar that pays, I think, the highest dividend, and if anything can be done in this regard I think every effort should be made. We have a province with many beautiful, natural facilities, and I think it is a matter simply of acquainting the world that we have them.

The American tourist is known for the fact that he seems to be seeking new areas to travel to, new communities to go and visit, and now that·he's been to the west and east coasts of his own country and into Mexico, maybe they should discover that mid-west Canada also has something to offer, and I echo the thoughts that some of the other members have spoken, in that we do need a massive and a far better advertising program than I think we've had to date. It's a costly thing but it's probably one area where the investment might yield a much better return than any other source which we use to try to raise income .

I would like to say to the member for St. Vital that if he's waiting for the provincial government to do something about restoring the Riel Home in St. Vital, I suggest he not hold his breath. In 1960, the City of West Kildonan decided that we would try to restore the Seven Oaks House. The house is the oldest habitable home in Manitoba, the home of John Inkster, built in 1851 or 1852. The city council proceeded to spend money on it.

We set up a com mittee of women, of old-timers, descendants of the Selkirk settlers, who all got together and much time and effort was put into it, and we were naive enough to think that maybe we could get the Provincial Government interested, so at the opening of the house' we invited the First Premier to attend. He graced us with his presence; he made a lovely speech; he told us consideration would be given; and what we got was consideration and so far no dollars in support. However, it has grown de spit that. Last year we had 11, 000 tourists who went through that little place.

It's a remarkable building for its age; it's been well-preserved, and the co=unity is still working to restore many features of it, and it's become somewhat of a gem of a facility for the tourists. So as I say, if St. Vital is waiting for the province to take the lead I 'm afraid they may wait a long time, but I wish them luck in any case. One aspect of the estimates that have here that I'm not too happy with, and I'd like qualification on, is the removal of the Physical Fitness and Amateur Sport Department from that of Welfare to Tourism.

Now, there may be some connection between Tourism and Physical Fitness and Amateur Sport, but I know there's a fear in my mind and there's a fear in the minds of people who are in charge of recreation in Manitoba that the feeble steps taken by the province was recognition that physical fitness and amateur sport was something that should be encouraged - they did this, I think, three years ago - that these steps may now be negated and the entire project, the entire thinking, may be lost by throwing this department into Tourism, because Tourism really deals with something else.

It deals with attracting tourists from other provinces and other countries; it deals with making facilities available for Manitobans within Manitoba to travel around and discover their own province. But the physical fitness and recreation program was a department or a program designed to help local municipalities to develop recreational facilities within their own municipality, to do something about upgrading, in some instances, and creating where there were none befort<.

West Kildonan, my own constituency, was one of the first in Manitoba- I think it was first - who did pass a recreation co=ission by-law which made it possible for us to take advantage of a small grant that is made available, and we were very happy when the province created this department because we felt that here at long last there was going to be some positive action on the part of the government to get into the whole field of recreation, and I suggest we have to move in that direction.

The times are long past when we can expect the local community, the local area, through its own resources to build, staff, and maintain the type of programs that are required in the 1960's. I know I hear old-timers sit back and deplore the fact that our youth of today is spoiled, and I hear old-timers deplore and talk about how 30 or 40 years ago if the community wanted some facilities they all rolled up their sleeves and got together and created them. Well, those times are gone. Our children are not.

1338 February 23, 1967 (MR . MILLER , cont 'd) . . . . . prepared, obviously , to just do with a shack, and a sheet of ice . They want the better facilities. :Maybe they're spoiled, but if they're spoiled it's be.cause we as adults are also spoiled . We will not accept the standards of 40 years ago and our kids will not accept the standards of 40 years ago either .

We need these new facilities and we must have them, and I'm concerned, I'm really concerned that .this whole approach that was started in the Welfare Department through the Physical Fitness and Recreation Department, may now be lost in the larger problem, in the larger program of tourism, and I would like some as surance from the Minister that .this somehow will not be lost and, if anything, that the department is thinking in terms of expanding this particular feature of the department .

I would also like to know from the Minister whether there is any credence to his statement made at the October 1966 meeting of the Manitoba Recreation Directors held in Flin Flon. The report at that time was that the grant, the present· grant structure was going to be changed somewhat and that up to $2, 000 would be paid to a community which had a recreation director who was hired by and worked for the municipality. This was mentioned, as I say, at a meeting.

I don't know where it might appear in the es timates - I can't see any great increase in any of the es timates in the Community Recreation Branch, so I am not sure it. appears. I would like to know whether this has been scrapped or whether this is in fact going to take place . But generally, I would like to stress the fact that I am seriously concerned that our children are not getting a fair shake in the development of the urban areas today.

I think the Member for Inkster dealt with this at greater length so I won't belabour it, .but I feel that we have to recognize that part of living in an urban modern community is the. recreational facilities in that community. We haven't provided them . In many instances the municipalities have tried.

They've set aside a certain amount of land and they've said, "That shall be a top la\Vll; that shall be a playground, 1' but they don't have the finance s; they don't have the resource s to do much about them; and in many cases they've simply stayed as they are as barren pieces of land with. the hope that some kids will come and play there, but, as I say, the children of today are not going to use those facilities because they're not prepared, coming from the kinds of home and the kind of attitudes that. the adults have these days, to simply play pick-up baseball on an empty lot where these are available .

Now I would like to suggest that there is an answer, and the answer lies in something that has become evident to many people but somehow I think they need provincial .direction in this regard. They .need someone to be a focal point to create - and.that is the whole concept of utilizing our educational system, our schools , and tie it in with the recreational program . We spend millions of dollars on schools throughout Manitoba, and it was always a shocking · thing to me that at 4 p. m. the lights of the schools went out and the place was dark until 9 o'c lock the next morn4J.g.

This to me was the greatest sin, if you want to call it, I' d ever encountered. In West Kildonan - again I refer to West Kildonance because it has led the way in some instances -w e created what is known as a community schools program. It was not original; it was taken from the City of Flint, Michigan where this was first pioneered, and today in West Kildonan and in the.

Seven Oaks School Division you will find our gymnasium being 1,1sed for roller skating in the evening, and I can tell you when this was first suggested, I know the horror with which some of the school authorities looked •at this thought, that the gymnasium floors would be marred by roller skates. I can tell you with the new type of composition roller skates nothing happened, and there are hundreds of kids taking advantage every night of these facilit�es, but for some reason or other this hasn't spread . Now there seems to be a lack of communication between the school board and the·c ouncil.

There is a feeling each one.i s supreme in his own domain and neither is prepared to give an inch to help create or make joint U!3e .of the se facilities. In our own area we had to go to the extent of a special resalution by council and the school boards , ratified by this House , whereby all school grounds would be made available to the city, to the municipal corporation, when the facilities were not in use by the school board.

This was done simply by withholding transfer of title, because in West Kildonan' we gave them the land free, and we had to resort to that sort of stuff, .but really to have to reso rt t,o that is nonsense . I think the Provincial Government has to take the l�ad here, and it can do it very simply by, I think, the Department of Education recognizing that although the buildings may belong to the schopl board, that there has to be some flexibility whereby a municipality through its recreation commission or parks board can, jointly with the school board, develop facilities.

You have, as I. say, a building with the· heating plant, some of the facilities already there , and a community centre which. has to be

February 23, 1967 1339 (MR. MILLER , cont'd) .. ... bl.:ilt elsewhere on another site because they can't go on school board property, trying to make do with a building that isn't adequate at all, and I think that certainly it wouldn't take much to come up with a plan whereby the recreational facilities, the community centres, the school and all, can be put on one huge site so the buildings can be used jointly, so that the showers, the playground facilities can be used indoor and outdoor, an interchange of facilities, and on a 12-months basis .

Someone mentioned here just recently - I think it was the member for Gladstone perhaps - that after 10 months, when school is out, whatever physical fitness directors they have, they are gone for the two-month period . To me this is wrong .

Surely these people can be on a 12-month basis, so that during the school term, perhaps, most of the emphasis could be through the school itself or the school hours -b ecause that's where the kids are - come July and August when the kids are not at school the emphasis could be shifted to outdoors and the same people could become involved in leading programs and developing programs . I think this is the only way we are going to get adequate facilities in Manitoba or develop them to any extent. Otherwise it is going to end up as a hodgepodge of development .

You are going to end up with situations you have in Winnipeg where this community centre is going broke, that one has gone broke, and a third one refuses to pay its telephone bill or light bill or what have you, because it hasn't the money. The day when we can hope to develop these things of three dollar donations or memberships is gone.

You can't do it on that basis any more, and if we are going to have coliseums, which we need, or skating arenas or curling rinks, it's got to be done on a massive program, using all the -n ot facilities but to marshal all the forces of the Department of Education as to their facilities, the Welfare, or this particular, this Community Recreation Branch and the Community Development officers that work for the Welfare Depart ment, these have to be part of an over-all package, and unless we do that I'm afraid we are still going to be talking here 10 years from now about bits and pieces of action which is, I think, an overlapping and a very costly and inefficient way of doing it.

MR. BEARD: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would join with the last speaker in assuring the Member for Gladstone that in all probability most of our problems come from the fact that our roads are so much better today than they were in the years that he wishes to dwell on. I think it 's hard to keep people in Manitoba when they have such good roads to get around and see so many things so fast. I can assure him that we now have tourists coming up to as far as The Pas and Flin Flon in a matter of a few hours where just a few years ago it was either impossible or it took many hours and some days, in fact, to get that far.

I think that, first of all, I would like to make note again to the Member for Elmwood that we have had, in fact, excursions to northern Manitoba and to Churchill since as far back as 1947 on a yearly basis, and that these excursions have included people from all over, not only Canada but United States, and they are growing more popular each year . They have always been sold out. The trains include all the luxuries that you would require .

There are recreation rooms, there are movies, and the excursion itself includes stopovers at all the major points throughout Manitoba so that the excursionists themselves not only see Churchill but they stop at Dauphin, where Dauphin usually have a horticultural show, and the people take these excursions out and they show them the whole of the Dauphin area . In fact, some of them go up as far as Clear Lake. They stop over in The Pas and they are well entertained there . They come into Thompson where they are entertained, and then they go on to Churchill. --(Interjection)-- Oak Lake?

No they don't go out quite that far. I'm sorry the Honourable Member for St . Vital had to go.

I hope he doesn't feel as if I'm going to stab him in the back, but when he talks about priority, such as Louis Riel, it makes me want to stand up and remind the Minister that certainly the history, not only of Manitoba but the whole of Western Canada, started with the discovery of Hudson Bay, and certainly the history of Manitoba began with the trading of furs through Fort Churchill and through Fort Prince of Wales and York Factory, so York Factory and Fort Prince of Wales was discovered many, many years before any of the other historical points that we have in the Province of Manitoba, and I would appeal to the Minister to use his influence to see what can be done about the_ maintenance of some of the historical sites, the only historical sites left in Manitoba that are of any significance and that are standing the way they have been built in the first original days, because certainly York Factory has a history that all of us should be made aware of.

This is the place that started the famous York Factory boats . These are the places where the Selkirk settlers first landed and came down to form later the Town of Selkirk and

1340 February 23, 1967 (MR . BEARD, cont 'd) •••.• the City of Winnipeg. At Prince of Wales you will find many historical things that you cannot find anywhere else in the world . The history of this Fort was carved in the rocks and it is still there, something that would amaze any tourist that wishes to visit the area . I believe that we should do more about preserving this area so that it does not become another Upper Fort Garry where there is nothing left but a rock. At York Factory we have the old original buildin�, some of them .

They still have cannon balls that you can dig out of the river - the sides of the river, rather - and I think it is something that should be maintained and preserved for the many years to come . I think that you will find that if we can preserve this, then, as Northern Manitoba is developed, it will become a tourist area.

If we leave it as it is now where the hunting is so popular and the fishing is so popular, that each one that goes in takes away a souvenir and soon there will be nothing left, but I would appeal to not only our own government but to those in Ottawa to look after the historical sites and see what can be done, because up to now, unfortunately, there is only plaques hanging on the wall to discourage people from taking away parts of the factory for souvenirs, and granted, in looking into it I do understand that the Ottawa people feel that historical sites should be developed in accordance with the number of people that can visit the area, and I can agree to this to a point, but if we allow these to be destroyed then when the people come to look at them in. the future there will be nothing left, so I appeal to the Minister to see what he can do about preserving some of the old historical sites which were used to develop not only Manitoba but the whole of Western Canada, and if we can hold these together as they are now I' m sure that they will be invaluable, not only to our children but to the childrens ' children, as we develop in Northern Manitoba and as they become accessible with this development .

MR. PHILIP PE TURSSON (Wellington) : Mr . Chairman, the Member from Churchill is touching on an area in which I am also personally interested, in the preservation of land marks, areas, buildings and so on that contributed to the building of Manitoba and of Canada. There were many individuals that entered. into the making up of the province, many events , and only now - well , within the last few years -i s a real interest beginning to be developed in the preservation of some of the points of interest that remind us of these earlier days .

The places that the Honourable Member from Churchill mentioned are important in the history of Manitoba and if they are not preserved then eventually they will, as he says, go to pieces from decay and no longer stand there as a marker, as a landmark to the early steps in the formation of this province . The man that was mentioned by the member from St. Vital - Louis Riel -i s a person ality that also enters into the making up of the province, a man who literally gave his life in the preservation of what he though was his land - his and his people 's land.

I had opportunity not too long ago of reading parts of the address that Louis Riel gave at the time of his trial and sentence, and there was real oratory there . He excused himself in a number of places for not being able to speak English too well, but the transcript would never indicate that he did not have good facility in the English language.

It reminded me, as I read it, a great deal of the trial of Socrates before his judges, where he spoke both before and after his sentence, and where we have a figure of this stature , I was going to say, and I do say, it is unfortunate if memories of a man of this kind disappear and fade away in the distance as the distance recedes and we progress on into the second century of the province.

Louis Riel was defended by lawyers who tried in his defence to prove that he was insane, but Riel would not accept this judgment and argued in his presentation that he was a completely sane man, and rather than gain his freedom on the defence that he was not sane, he would rather prove himself to have been a sane man and suffer the consequences. His oratory stepped up; he became -w ell, what would I call it ? He became poetic, almost, in his expression after he had been sentenced.

The jury had gone out and brought back the finding , that he was guilty, and Riel again addressed the jury and addressed the people in the courts. I'm not going to carry on along this line, but I was struck, at the time , that Louis Riel was a great man. He was defending his country against what he called strangers. He knew not who these people were coming from the east under arms to take over the administration of the · land. We didn't have telephones or radios in those days - it was all by courier, whatever information passed on between.

There were upwards of about 10, 000 people in the Red River settlement and here were a few interlopers from the east coming, as he understood it, to take over the land which was even then being governed. This in itself, the memory of a man of this' stature, could not only be regarded as a credit in being remembered through

February 23, 1967 1341 (MR . PETURSSON, cont'd) .. .. . Manitoba as having had such a man as a part of its history, but things of this sort attract people who travel into the country and want to find out who we are and where we came from and what were our antecedents in this Red River settlement. I can't but feel that a mistake had been made when what is called the Osborne Bridge was not given the name, "The Louis Riel Bridge". Nothing would have been more fitting than to have that bridge named after Louis Riel. But enough about that.

There are certain things that are being done that recall the history of our province - isn't that right? --(Interjection)-- They are not a part of the past history; they are still too .... --(Interjection)-- Yes, yes. You mean the man that Louis Riel shot.

He was -if you read the story you'll find what kind of a man he really was. --(Interjection)-- I was saying that there were such men as Louis Riel in the past history, but that things are being done to commemorate certain areas of activity that will be, or would be forgotten if some individuals were not giving themselves over to the gathering of information and compiling it and preparing it for publication. I had the opportunity not long ago to listen to Ed Russenh olt .

I doubt whether I have to explain who he is - everybody knows Ed Russenholt. (I 'm not trying to run the clock out - I'm ju st talking a very few words .) Ed Russenholt is writing at the present time a book about the history of Assiniboia . After he went out on his farm just west of Headingley he developed a great interest in the history of that area, and as he worked, the -I call it a vision -t he vision grew, the vision expanded.

The significance of what had been done in Assiniboia as a part of the outskirts of Winnipeg and as a part of Winnipeg and as a part of the province, grew and developed until he claims that he has a book that will run over 18 chapters of 50 pages each, and that book is to be published some time next July. And in the publication of that book a great deal of history that is all but forgotten will be preserved. We have native-born · people who have lived almost up to within the living memory of some of us, and I am thinking of one man particularly who did not play a

part in the actual development of Manitoba but nevertheless is a historic figure because he became not only an outstanding Manitoban, an outstanding Canadian, but a world figure as well, recognized in all countries. It was the explorer, Vilhjalmur Stefansson, and I have to refer to the fact again that I am of Icelandic antecedents as Stefansson was. Also he was born at Arnes which is only six miles north of Gimli, 12 miles north of Gimli, and he explored the Arctic wastes . He discovered a number of islands, the existence of which was unknown up to that time .

He took possession of these islands in the name of Canada and extended the boundaries of the country on up into the Arctic. He was an explorer, he was an anthropologist, he was a scientist, he was a lecturer, he was a writer, and he became recognized as a world authority on Arctic conditions . There is a

section of the library out at our University that is· made up of books that Stefansson has written, and at Dartmouth College down in the States there is the whole library that he collected, the largest library in existence on the Arctic regions --(Interjection) -- pardon ? He lived down there; steps were not taken early enough here to make it possible for that library to come to Manitoba.

This is another thing that would attract people to Manitoba, something that should be done, because people will be interested, or would if the opportunity were given, interested in knowing that Stefansson had been born in Manitoba, he was a son of this country, this province, and I understand that, not through any other efforts except those of the people of his own particular original nationality, efforts are being made now to set up a memorial to him at Arnes where he was born .

There are a number of persons, individuals, groups, in a similar way who could be commemorated as people who had lived and worked in this province and been a part of it and helped it to become what it is, and I think that, as far as tourism is concerned, it would be a great contribution in the attraction of people to this part of the country, show them that we have a history which is second to none as far as the western provinces are concerned and as far as many of the states to the south of us are concerned .

The only thing is that we are, and often tend to be too (and this isn't political) conservative - small c - by nature to take advantage of the things that we know should be done until it is beginning to get almost too late to do it, and when records are lost or have been destroyed.

But I think as a part of the activities of the Depart ment of Tourism it would be a very valuable contribution to the history of this province if things similar to these that I have mentioned were to be taken up, compiled, collected in whatever way we can, and recorded so that people coming into the province interested in these things would know something or would have the opportunity of knowing something about this land

1342 February 23, 19 67 (MR. PE TURSSON, cont'd) ..•.. in which we live. I might say - somebody was talking about Manitoba as being a wasteland and noth�g here . I dislike bringing up any personal mentions or injecting myself personally into discussio ns, but I retired from my church two years ago . People asked me then,. "Where are you going to go and where are you going to move to ?" My reply was that I ca n't think of any other place in this wide world that I would rather be than right here in Manitoba . There are few place s that have greater -- no, not greater beauty -- MR.

PAULL EY: Under proper guidance by a proper government, and proper ....• MR. PE TURSSON: That isn't what I am trying to say, but what I can say is that there are few places that I would rather be than in Manitoba - that's what I said. Even Iceland. That's what I said a moment ago . There are few places that have fewer faults than this province, and here we have something that we can boast of, and we have a heritage now that we are becoming aware of and that will be of value to us, to our children, to our children's children through the years to come. MR. McLEAN: Mr .

Chairman, one of the disadvantages of listening to the debate is that it always reminds one of some point you'd like to make in following what has been said, This is the case with what the Honourable Member for Seven Oaks said about a recreational director and that they had the first one there after the grant systell! came into force .

I 'm constrained to report to him and to the others that in the Town of Dauphin, which I have the honor to represent, we had one some 20 years ago before there were any grants, and I believe . outside the City of Winnipeg we were the first co=unity in Manitoba to have such a person as part of the municipal staff. But what I wanted really to say was with respect to the suggestion made by the Honourable the Member for Hamiota when this afternoon in speaking about various ethnic groups he sugge sted that they might well consider having festivals to give their music and culture , and he did mention the Ukrainians.

That prompts me to tell him that the first Canadian national Ukrainian Festi val was held in Dauphin last su=er in the last half of the month of July. It was a two-day function and brought people from not only the Province of Manitoba but from every province in Canada and from many of the states of the United States. Not only were the visitors from outside of our own province but many of the people who took

part in the presentations were from outside the province . It was very largely attended, and I think that it would be correct to say that on the final evening, the concert on the final evening, that there were perhaps six or seven thousand people present on that occasion.

I can report that the Tourist Branch, originally in the Department of Industry and Commerce, were most helpful to the co=ittee on arrangements, and happy also to say that the utilit ies, the Manitoba Hydro and the Manitoba Telephone System, were helpful and made a very splendid contribution; and then, what I particularly wanted to remind the members of the Committee , Mr . Chairman, was that the second Festival will be held this year on the 4th and 5th of August and it is expected that it will surpass that of last year .

Preparations are being made for large crowds of people and for entertainment which will portray the culture and the contributions of the Ukrainian people to our province and to our communities in a way that will be not only enjoyable but helpful, and will serve as· a very.splendid occasion for people to come and enjoy this type of thing . So his ruggestion was very good and I just wanted to say that it has already been acted on in this one instance at least, by the people of the Dauphin community . MR. CHAIRMAN: (a) (1)-- passed .... MR. LYON: Perhaps in the few minutes that are left, Mr .

Chairman, I could attempt to answer a few of the questions that have been put during the course ,of this most interesting debate .

I must say, first of all, most sincerely that there have been, as I hoped there would be , a number of helpful and I think fruitful suggestions from all side s of the House as to different projects or different procedures that we might follow within the department, and I only hope that in the course of our work during the next year that honourable members who have made some of these suggestions will find that it has been possible for us to implement them or to at least pay some close attention to some of the very good ideas, some of the constructive ideas that have been given to us.

On the other hand, there have been a number of excellent ideas given to us that are not new, are not new to us at all, and there is only a slight inhibition that prevents us from going ahead and offering these things in this year's prograni, and I know that when the second reading of the present bill that is before the House comes before the honour able members, probably within the course of the next two weeks or so, that knowing as I do that they want all of these good things to be done in Manitoba, new historic markers here, help for municipal parks there, subsidization for co=unity hockey rinks and

February 23, 1967 1343 (MR . LYON, cont 'd) .••• help for different kinds of programs, booklets that aren't quite as cheap as one honourable member referred to, and so on - I 'm sure that when they come to that tax bill that they will vcte unanimously for it so we'll have the money to do all of these things that are being asked for on the other side of the House . MR. PAULLEY: Thus comes the parting of the ways . MR. LYON: Well that's where I lose my honourable friend, you see .

I would love to join him and do all of these things but there are some inhibitions on what we can do, However, with the help and co-operation of my generous colleague the Provincial Treasurer, I think we are going to be able to do some of the things this year that everyone on all sides of the House would agree to .

Now if I may deal specifically with some of the points that were raised in the course of the debate, I believe that the Honourable Member from Hamiota was the first speaker and he made some comments , a number of comments on all of the items of the department, and I would like to attempt to give him some answers that may be helpful to him. I suppose we could get into the statistical question first of all. That is, what portion of the tourist dollar do Manitobans get and is Manitoba lagging in the tourist business, or is it ahead in the tourist business, or where is it ?

Let me be the first to say - and I' m sure that my predecessor has said this on many occasions to the House - that when you 're dealing with tourist expenditures in the Province of Manitoba, whether the figure s are supplied to you by the Dominion Bureau of Statistics or whether by internal departmental surveys, you are dealing with es timated figure s only. No one can give you a definitive figure as to the last cent or the last dollar or the last $10, 000 or $1 00, 000 or $1, 000, 000 that is being spent by tourists, because the infor mation is just not available in a definitive way.

But by samplings, by questionnaires, by various other techniques that are employed, they do come up with what I would prefer to call sort of ball park figures, which give you some general idea of the tourist business across Canada, and you will find that the statistics that are used by the Dominion Bureau of Statistics have this to be said for them, at least they are all based on the same common factors and so the answer that they come out with at least has that common factor to it which is applied right across Canada.

On the other hand, this Department over the years and other Departments of Tourism across the country have made their own internal surveys and these internal surveys tend to differ quite considerably from the figures that are given by the Dominion Bureau of Statistics. Now, for instance , it has been mentioned I believe by the Honourable Member for Hamiota that Manitoba only receives three percent of the total Canadian tourist business.

However, all of the provinces have found that that DBS factor that is applied is too narrow a base, that they have used for their survey, and the regional geographical conditions have not been considered in completing the number of cars entering any one province or in calculating expenditures, and this has caused most of the provinces, including the Province of Manitoba, to undertake surveys of our own to determine the true picture.

We did this in 1965 and you will see some mention of it made in the report of the Department of Industry and Commerce, where the Tourism Branch was formerly lodged, and through our new research section, which is only just beginning to take life once we get some money voted for it during these Es timates, we will continue to do this, and I can tell the Committee , Mr . Chairman, that the preliminary rescilts of these surveys that we have taken in Manitoba are encouraging,and they do give a most hopeful picture with respect to tourist revenue and the value of tourist revenue to the Province of Manitoba .

The estimated value of tourist revenue to the province has been based on traffic patterns which were established by a survey conducted in 1953 . The figures used for the average expenditure for tourists have been based on data supplied by the Dominion Bureau of Statistics. These figures take into account Canada-wide averages and they include relatively small expenditures by those who cross the border from large American centres to visit neighboring large Canadian centres for only a few hours duration or even less. An example of this condition would be in the Detroit-Windsor area, for instance.

Now very obviously these brief visits do not result in large expenditures of money, and they work to bring down the average of the amount spent per tourist vis itation right across the country. It is equally obvious that these conditions do not prevail on the border areas of Manitoba, for instance, so that the amount spent by each tourist visitor to Manitoba should logically be higher than the DBS figures but you can see why they aren't because these are national averages that are supplied right across the country. Let me be quick to say I am not finding fault; I am just pointing out

1344 February 23, 1967 (:MR. LYON , cont'd) ••••• some of the areas where it's possible and it becomes most manifest that the averages that DBS uses are not necessarily a figure that should be relied upon con clusively to relate to the tourist busine ss in Manitoba . Now this departmental survey that I spoke about, that the Department has undertaken, has substantiated our belief that Manitoba tourist visitors do, in fact, spend considerably more than the national average amounts to as compiled by the DBS.

It was very apparent to our tourist branch that the traffic patterns as established by the 1953 survey had changed sub stantially since that date. The DBS provides traffic figures for only the u:s. - Canadian border points of entry and I want to underline that point: only the U. S. - Canadian border points of entry. And the 1953 survey established a relationship between tourist traffic entering Manitoba via the U. S. border and the tourist traffic entering Manitoba from our neighbouring provinces of Ontario and Saskatchewan .

This relationship has been used over the years to adjust the DBS border traffic count in arriving at a total touri!>t figure for our province, In 1965, our consultants conducted a new survey of tourist traffic entering Manitoba from Ontario and Saskatchewan in order to determine the current relationship between this tourist traffic and the tourist traffic entering Manitoba from the United States which was the old basis . The results of this new traffic survey -- and these are not complete results; I stress and under line that point.

These are tentative figures that have been given to us so far but they again indicate the trend which we believe is taking place in Manitoba. The results indicate that tourist traffic patterns have indeed altered drastically since 1953 . The '53 survey, for instance, established that for every 100 foreign vehicles entering Manitoba from the south, only 71 Canadian and 17 non-Canadian vehicles crossed the eastern and the western boundaries of the province, Saskatchewan and Ontario . The 1965 survey on the other hand, Mr .

Chairman, found that 156 Canadian and 45 non-Canadian vehicles crossed the eastern and western borders of Manitoba for every 100 foreign vehicles that entered from the south, and so you can see the drastic change that has taken place in the east-west traffic in entering our province, based on this preliminary survey, and of course the answer is quite simple: the Trans Canada Highway and the amount of traffic that is generated on the Trans Canada Highway today which was not a part of that 1953 survey base .

This large increase in the proportion of our east-west traffic is due mainly to the completion of that highway and to the tremendously increasing use of it . An added factor , of course , has been the increased emphasis on our own advertising and promotional activities in the states of Minnesota and Wisconsin and Iowa and Illinois and Michigan a.Iid Indiana and Oh io .

The statistics have shown that these are major areas of increasing importance for the Manitoba tourist market, and a large percentage of our tourists from those areas logically will enter Manitoba via the Ontario boundary, not through the U, S. boundary on the south . Well, this is about as far as I can go with that tonight, Mr . Chairman, but I hope with your permiss ion to continue this explanation on the figures a little bit more tomGrrow. I move the Committee rise . MR.. CHAIRMAN: Comm.ittee rise . Call in the Speaker. Mr .

Speaker, the Committee has considered a certain resolution, has asked me to report progress and begs leave to sit again. MR . DOUGLAS J. WATT (Arthur): Mr . Speaker I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Member from Springfield, that the report of the Committee be received. MR . SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried . MR . LYON: Mr . Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Provincial Treasurer, that the House do now adjourn . MR .

SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried and the House adjourned until 10 o'clock Friday morning,

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	28-1-57
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	28th 1st hansardpdf 57.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	9dee1ae47d071693fc59ddd6defef1fd6579c96f

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