LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Tuesday, 24 June, 1986. Time - 2:00 p.m. OPENING PRAYER by Madam Speaker. MADAM SPEAKER, Hon. M. Phillips: Presenting Petitions . . Reading and Receiving Petitions . . . PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Burrows. MR. C. SANTOS: Madam Speaker, the Committee of Supply has adopted certain reso lutions , directs me to report the same, and asks leave to sit again. I move, seconded by the Member for Inkster , that the report of the Committee be received . MOTION presented and carried.

MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS AND TABLING OF REPORTS MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Economic Security. HON. L. EVANS: Madam Speaker, I have a Ministerial Statement. Madam Speaker, I would like to take this oppo rt unity to inform the members of the Assembly that as Minister of Employment Services and Economic Security, I signed a proclamation in my office this morning , declaring July 7 - 11 as Hire-A-Student Week in Manitoba .

Hire-A-Student Week, an annua l event, promoted by my department's Manitoba Youth Job Centre Program , represents a province-wide effort to recognize the importance of hiring students and giving them the opportunity for career-related work experience. The proclamation signing for Hire-A-Student Week, reflects the Provincial Government's commitment to the concept of hiring Manitoba youth . We all know that people are a nation's most important resource and our younger generation comprise the most vital component to securing our economic future.

Through the Manitoba Youth Job Centre Program , the Provincial Government presently provides job counselling, referral and placement services throughout the summer for students and unemployed youth. Forty­ three Manitoba Youth Job Centres operate province­ wide. Nine of these facilities run in cooperat ion with the Federa l Canada Employment Cent res for Students.

In add it ion to the Mani toba Youth Job Centre Program, my department operates a variety of job creation and job placement initiatives , whereby it is anticipated that the Prov incia l Government will assist approximately 20,000 students and youth to secure jobs this summer.

These initiatives take the form of: (1) - direct employment offered through STEP - the Student Temporary Employment Progr am , and departmental budgetted positions; (2) - referral services to full-time, part-time , and casual employment through the job opportunity service and the Manitoba Youth Job Centre Program; (3) - direct wage assistance programs such as Manitoba Careerstart '86, $8.5 million, and our Northern Youth Corps Program. Hire-a-Student Week is certainly an important happening across our province.

It is a time when we call upon the business community, and others in the private and public sectors, to acknowledge the efforts of our youth, who need to gain work experience for future employment opportunities. During Hire-a-Student Week, as throughout the course of the year, our government urges all Manitobans to do their share in helping students and youth in their respective communities. The staff at the Manitoba Youth Job Centres promote this week to increase the public awareness of hiring students.

A variety of events designed to encourage community participation, such as, parades, contests, and car washes , have been scheduled. In the past, local officials in towns and cities across Manitoba have offered their support by promoting local involvement in Hire-a-Student Week publicity endeavours. Madam Speaker , as a gesture to promote Hire-a ­ Student Week, I would invite all my colleagues to wear our Manitoba Youth Job Centre buttons during Hire­ a-Student Week, in support of our Manitoba youth. Thank you. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Gladstone. MRS. C. OLESON: Thank you , Madam Speaker.

I would like to thank the Minister for his statement this afternoon. As many of us know, this program has been going on for many years and, in fact, it's been going on for many weeks this spring, in starting and coordinating. I think the jobs that some of these young people get, of course, direct them in a path that they may want to go on later in life.

I would very much like to congratulate the young people that coordinate and do the actual promotion and work in the communities because they're the ones that make the program work and make it successful in hiring students and , of course , hiring students is a very , very important thing in t hese days of high unemployment. 1203 I thank the Minister for the statemen t. MADAM SPEAKER : Notices of Motion Introduction of Bills.

Tuesday, 24 June, 1986 INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MADAM SPEAKER: Before proce eding to Or al Questions, may I dire ct the attention of honourable members to the galler y, where we have 46 students from Grades 5 and 6 from the J.A. Cuddy Elementary School, under the direction of Miss Marie Brooks. The school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Morris. We have 45 stude nts from Gr ade 6 from th e Assiniboine School. These students are under the direction of Mr. Carne y and Mr. Reynes, and the school is located in the constituency of the Honour able Member for St.

James, the Honourable Minister of Labour . On behalf of all the members, I welcome you to the Legislature this afternoon. ORAL QUESTIONS Limestone Training and Appointment Agency - awarding of contracts MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. G. FILMON: Thank you, Madam Speak er, my qu estion is for the Minis ter re sponsible for the Limestone Training and Employment Agency. I wonder if he could ind icate whether the agency has awarded a contract to monitor the agency's efforts to maximize Native and Northern employment arising out of the construction of the Limestone Project. HON. V.

SCHROEDER: Yes, it has. MR. G. FILMON: Madam Spea ker, I wonder if the Minister could indicate whether , prior to the awarding of the contract, proposals or tenders were called for with respect to that project. HON. V. SCHROEDER: No, Madam Speak er. Limestone Training and Appointment Agency - Churchill Research Centre MR. G. FILMON: Madam Speak er, I wonder if the Min ister could ind icate whether the amount of the contract was approximately $340,000, and whether it has been awarded to the Churchill Research Centre Inc. HON. V.

SCHROEDER: The answer to the first question is no, Madam Speaker; the answer to the second question is yes. MR. G. FILMON: I wonder if, Madam Speaker , the Minister could then ind icate what the value of the contract was. HON. V. SCHR OEDER: lt was for $250,000.00. Limestone Training and Appointment Agency - WMC Research Associates MR. G. FILMON: Madam Speaker, I wonder if the Minister could indicate whether a portion of that contract will be performed or fulfilled by WMC Research Associates, or Doug Davison? HON. V.

SCHROEDER: Madam Speaker, I can table the contract There is nothing in the contract with respect to WMC or Doug Davison, but the Churchill Research Centre has, indeed, sub-contracted a portion of the work to Doug Davison. I might add that the people at the Churchill Research Centre include the director, Dennis Macknack, who is with the Brandon Univ ersity, the Brandon University's North Te acher Employment Program, which has provided so many Native teachers for Northern Manitoba.

He was involved with the Core Area Training Agency, with the Winnip eg Education Centre dealing with teacher training for disadvantaged people in the core area of the city; people like Deo Poonwassie, Director of the ACCESS Program of the University of Manitoba, again involved with ACCESS for post-secondary education for Native Manitobans, a very successful program; Don Robertson, a Native Manitoban who was also involved with the Brandon University's North Te acher Education Program, a very successful program in getting Natives into teaching positions, and he's now the Superintendent of Island Lake Education Auth ority.

Those people are basically the people behind the Churchill Research Centre, and they have sub­ contra cted some of their work out to other people who have an expertise in this field. Limestone Training and Appointment Agency - Man. Hydro representative MR. G. FILMON: I wonder if the Minister could indic ate who Manitoba Hydro's representative on the Limestone Training and Employment Agency is. HON. V. SCHROEDER: Madam Speaker , there are a number of people on that Limestone Training and Employment Agenc y. Of course, the Chai rperson is Peter Ferris, the Hydro representative is Linda Jolson.

There are representatives on that board as well from the Department of Finance, from the Federal CEIC, from Employment Services and Economic Security and a number of other agencies, all of whom have an interest in ensuring the success of this project which, to date, has been, Madam Speaker, extremely successful in that we are exponentia lly hi gher in terms of Na tiv e employment at Limestone than we have ever been able to achi eve in the past.

We have done, up until this point, what we have set out to do - to make sure that this time Native Northerners will not be by-passed in terms of training and employment when we're doing work and resource development in the North. Limestone Training and Appointment Agency - Churchill Research Centre MR. G. FILMON: Madam Speak er, I wonder if the Minister could indicate whether Ms. Jolson partici pated in the decision that led to the award of that contract without tender to Churchill Research Centre Inc. HON. V. SCHROEDER: Madam Speaker, I'v e had several discussions with the Chai rperson of the 1204

Tuesday, 24 June, 1986 Limestone Training and Employment Agency , who has vigor ously insisted that Ms. Jolson has at all times acted in a way to ensure that there would be no possible conflict of interest. The fact that her husb and was with WMC was noted by her and she left meetings when any discussions were involved in any way with respect to either her husband or WMC . MR. G. FILMON: Madam Speaker , given that Ms.

Jolson's husband now is the recipient of a subcontract - a subcontract, as I understand it , in the amount of approximately $40,000 - as a result of the awarding of that contract to Churchill Research Centre Inc., does the Minister believe that is satisfactory conduct for her to be involved in the committee that awards th is contract? HON. V. SCHROEDER: Madam Speaker , she did not involve herself with that contract, nor did this particular committee involve itself with that contract.

I explained the committee entered into a contract with Churchill Research Centre Inc . which in turn subcontracted a part of the work. It is true that in order to obtain that subcontracted work there had to be approval from the Limestone Training and Employment Agency, in that they wanted to ensure that people doing the work would be qualified to do it. I'll just point out to the Leader of the Opposition that it's not a $40,000 contract and he should be just as carefu l of two-day-old newspapers , especially when they 're the Free Press, as one -day-old newspapers , in terms of accuracy.

The dollar amount was wrong; it said that it was done last Fall, that was wrong ; the dollar amou nt of this was wrong. There are so many inaccuracies in that story that I would think that the publisher of that paper would think about what he says when he says that one inaccuracy makes a story not worth reading . MR. G. FILMON: I wonder if the Minister could then indicate what the amount of the contract portion will be given to WMC Associates or Doug Davison , and I wonder if the Minister could indicate to us, Madam Speaker , whether or not Ms.

Jolson had prior knowledge that WMC Research Associates or her husband, Doug Davison, would be involved on a subcontract basis when this contract was awarded to Churchill Research Centre Inc. HON. V. SCHROEDER: Madam Speaker, the contract was for approximately $32,000.00 . I've already ind icated the Chairman of the Limestone Training and Employment Agency has made it very clear that there was absolu tely no conflict of interest, that Ms.

Jolson never advanced the cause of Doug Davison or WMC , and made sure scrupulously , that she would not be present at any discussions dealing with those matters , keeping in mind that it is Doug Davison who was one of the two people who presented reports to us prior to the start of construction of Limestone as to how to proceed. There was one report which suggested that we should proceed in the way of the past of the Northern Manpower Training Corporation where we didn 't have any kind of priorities for Native Northerners; that was one report .

The Davison Report said, yes, there shou ld be priority ; and, yes , we should start training immed iately, have the guts to do it. We've been following his advice . It has been good advice. It has been advice which has meant job s for Northern Native Manitoban s. MR. G. FILMON: Madam Speaker , given that one of those two reports that the Minister has referred to called for the establishment of a position that was later given to his wife , Linda Jolson , can the Minister ind icate now why this contract was not given out for propo sal or tender? HON. V.

SCHROEDER : Madam Speaker , the contract with the Churchill group, and keeping in mind because there tends to be some spill-over that people like to associate the two , the Churchill Research Group is one with Denni s Macknak, Deo Poonwassie , Don Robertson, that organization . That is an organization which has been in place as a research organization for a number of years. The Limestone Training and Employmen t Agency has, as I've indicated, a purpose of ens urin g Northern Native employment. This particular group is also interested in identically that kind of progress for Manitobans.

They came forward last August with a proposal that they expand their research activity into this area , bringing with them the expertise and background I've indicated. The Limestone Training and Employment Agency was looking specifically for ensuring activity at Limestone by Northern Nativ e Manitobans, as well as having spinoffs to northern organizations; this fit the bill. There was, quite frankly , no one else out there at the time who would appear to fit the bill in the same way, so they felt there was no real purpose in doing any tendering.

They were looking at what servic es these people were prepare d to perform. I think that the ser vices they are performing for us have been quite suitable to our needs . I think they 've been doing a good job for Manitobans, as has Manitoba Hydro , as demonstrated by the fact that they just recently won the Inter-Provincial Association on Native Employment's Ahenakew Award for precisely ensuring that there would be substantial Native employment on their Limestone site .

They 're doing exactly what we 're setting out to do, contrary to the expressed promises of Tory candidates up North during the last election campaign. They were saying, "Don't do these preferences ; don't do those priorities; don 't help the Natives." We're saying that' s wrong. We're going to have fair sha res for Manitobans . Limestone Training and Appointment Agency - opposition by Native re contracts MR. G. FILMON: Madam Speaker , the Minister 's editorial comments about Tory candidates are absolute balderdash .

My further question to the Min ist er is, given that the Northern Native groups are oppo sed to this award , why would they have given an award to a group that was opposed by Northern Native groups , to help them? HON. V. SCHROEDER: Madam Speaker, that is clearly not factu al. First of all, the Leader of the Opposition 1205

Tuesday, 24 June, 1~Q6, should check the statements of his cand idate in ridings like Thompson, in ridings like Flin Flan, in ridings like Radisson, in southern Manitoba, to determine where they stood . .. MADAM SPEAKER: Order please . Answers should be as brief as possible, should deal with the matter raised and should not provoke debate. The Honourable Mini ster of Energy and Mines . HON. V. SCHROEDER: Madam Speaker, the Ahenakew Award is given by the Inter-Provincial Association on Native Employment Inc . The Leader of the Oppositio n was asking how we wound up having that award presented to Manitoba Hydro.

We'r e very proud of the fact that it was presented to them and, in fact, the nominees , the people who nominated Manitoba Hydro and supported it were Manitoba Natives, and there are many Manitoba Natives who are saying that we are doing a good job . They are also saying that we should do better. They 're saying , notwithstanding the fact that we have at least three times as many Northern Natives working at Limestone today than we had at any time in the past , under the old projects , we should do more, and we are doing our best to do more, and we will continue to do our best to do more.

We admit we're not perfect, but certainly the numbers demonstrate that we have done, with the backup we have, we've done far better than has been done in the past and we have done that in the face of opposition from the Tories up North who said we should not give any priorities to Native Northerners. MR. G. FILMON: Madam Speaker, the Minister continues to misinform the House with respect to any comments ... MADAM SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourab le Leader of the Opposition should not accuse a Ministe r of intentionally misinforming the House. MR. G.

FILMON: Madam Speaker, as I said earlier , the information that the Minister has provide d is incorrect and I ask that you inform him that he not continue to give information to the House about statements of Tory candidates that are not correct. MADAM SPEAKER: Beauchesne Citation 322 says that " ... no imputation of intentional falsehood is permi ssible ." Would the Honourable Leader of the Opposition please withdraw those remarks? MR. G.

FILMON: Madam Speaker, I will withdraw the use of the word "misinformed," but earli er I sto od up and I specifically said that the Min ister's inform ation was not correct with respect to statements of Tory candidates. He has done so, again , and I suggest to you, Madam Spea ker, that it is not correct and that you ask him to withdraw those statem ents. MADAM SPEAKER: I will read further from Beauchesn e Citation 322 .

"It has been formally ruled by Speaker s that a statement by a Member respecting himself and particularly within his own knowledge must be accepted," and that," . . no imputation of intent ional falsehood is permissible ." Could the Honour ab le Leader of the Oppo sition please withdraw his accusations, imputations that the Honourable Minister was intenti onally making false statements in the House? MR. G. FILMON: Madam Speaker, I said that I would withdraw the statement that I said with the word " misinformation ." I have withdrawn that.

I am further asking that you ask the Minister not to keep repeating a s tatemen t which I have suggested is incorrect , and that is about Tory candidate s statements in the North . MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Opposition House Leader. MR. G. MERCIER : Thank you , Madam Speaker.

Keeping in mind the Citation you just read from Beauch es ne that another member must accept a statement from another member of the House, in support of my Leader 's comment, he has said that the Minister of Industry's stateme nts were incorrect ; and so that, too , must be accepted by the Minister of Industry and Trade and he should therefore with draw the comments that he has made , keeping in line with your ruling . MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. J.

COWAN: Madam Speaker , how often have you admonished us that a dispute over facts is not a point of order and, for that reason, the Opposition House Leader's comments , which referenced what is a dispute between members as to what the facts were in relation to statements that were uttered during a campaign , and I happen to agree with the Minister of Energy and Mines in respect to what was being said by Conservative candidates in Northern Manitoba when they spoke out against our Native preference hiring policies. While I have to agree with them, I unde rstand fully .. SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MADAM SPEAKER: Order please , order please. Could we please have order? SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MADAM SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourable Government Leader , to finish his advice on the point of order. HON. J. COWAN: While I understand the concern abo ut the members opposite , not having been there to have heard those comments, I can fully recognize that in that uninformed state they may believe those comments were not made and that , in fact , is a dispute over the facts and not a point of order. SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MADAM SPEAKER: Order please.

Would honourable members please co me to order? 1206

Tuesday, 24 June, 1986 I am satisfied that what we do have here - taking into account the Honourable Leader of the Opposition's apology and withdrawal of his initial remarks - is a dispute over the facts with the remaining remarks . The Honourable Leader of the Opposition . MR. G. FILMON: Well , Madam Speaker, I want it then clear on the record that Tory candidates in the North did not ... MADAM SPEAKER: Order please. Does th e honourable member have a question? Question period is not a time for debate. Does the honourable member have a question? MR. G.

FILMON: Madam Speaker, my question to the Minister is, leaving aside the Ahenakew Award that he wants to go on to, I'm talking about the award of a contract to Churchill Research Centre Inc ., which has been criticized by Native groups in Mani toba. I say, in view of the fact that it has been criticized by those Native groups, why was it awarded, without tender, wit hout any proposal, to a group that included the husband of one of the members of the committee? HON. V.

SCHROEDER: Well, Madam Spea ker, I am told by the chairperson of the Limestone Training and Employment Agency that the Churchill Research Centre proposal was accepted by all members of the committee . There was one member who wished to ensure that there would be representation and evaluation from the Limestone Aboriginal Partners Development Board, LAPDB, and that was the basis of the dispute.

At no time, as far as I know , was there any question as to the competence of this group to do the work, the price, the timing or that there was another group available and able to do the work which was cont rac ted to the Churchill Research Centre. MR. D. ORCHARD: How can you say that? HON. V. SCHROEDER: Well, Madam Speaker, they say, "How can you tell"? What we were going to do, hire somebody who had - (Interjection) - Madam Speaker, there are very few people in this province with the expertise to deal with the whole issue of employment in that kind of an environment.

As I have indicated, by and larg e, those people were already involved with the the Churchill Research Centre. The Churchill Research Centre, as well, informed Mr. Ferris that there was another group of people - about eight or nine organizations - with whom they wished to work to ensure that they would have all of the bases covered with respect to this evaluation, and that is how the contract was awarded . MADAM SPEAKER: If honourable members want to participate in question period, I'm sure that they know enough to rise to their feet. The Honourable Leader of the Opposition . MR. G.

FILMON: Thank you, Madam Speaker. Given that WMC Associates, in the person of Doug Davison, produced a report that resulted in the establishment of a position and the hiring of his wife, and now his wife sits on a committee that has awarded a contract without tender, without proposal, that he is now the beneficiary of; is th e Minister satisfied that there 's absolutely no inside dealing, that there's absolute ly no inside information being used by any of these people in the acceptance of positions and award of contracts? HON. V.

SCHROEDER : Madam Speaker , if the Leader of the Opposition has some evidence , let him come forward with it. I have said to the House , twice now, that the chairman of that organization has vigorously informed me th at there was no conflict of interest; that every time ther e was any reference to WMC or Doug Davison , Ms. Jolson ensured that she was not a part of the conversation , that she was not a part of the meeting .

The other people on tha t board, including peop le from the Federal Governmen t - not just your local New Democrats , as the Leader of the Opposition would like to have you believe, senior placed officials in a variety of Provincial Government Departments.

What he would have you believe, Madam Speake r, is that one person from Manitoba Hydro somehow inf luen ced thi s substantial group of people, at least 10 other people , to bring on some contract for people - (Interject ion) - Well, Madam Speaker, they would have you believe that but they have no evidence , and the only evidence we have is that of people lik e the chairperson, who says that's not true. MTS - access to Board meeting Minutes MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Pembina . MR. D. ORCHARD: Thank you , Madam Speaker . My question is for the Minister responsible for Manitoba Telephone System.

Past practice has allowed members of the Opposition, members of the public access to the Board Minutes of the Manitoba Telephone System. Is that practice still available, and do members of the Opposition have access to Board Minutes of the Manitoba Telephone System? MADAM SPEAKER: The Hono urable Minister of Labour. HON. A. MACKLING: I don't recall that past practice , Madam Speaker. I'll take that as notice, and I'll certainly give the honour able membe r full informat ion . MR. D. ORCHARD: Madam Speaker, not that I want to get into a debate because you'd rule me out of order , but ...

MADAM SPEAKER: You're right . MTX - access to Board meeting Minutes MR. D. ORCHARD: The Ministe r himself, as he's been Minister responsible , is allowed access to those MTS Board meetings. Could the Minister also indicate, while he's taking as notice the question of access to Board 1207

Tuesday, 24 June, 1986 Minutes of the Manitoba Telephone System, whether members of the Opposition would likewise have access to the Board Minutes of the MTX, the wholly-owned subsidiary of Manitoba Telephone System? HON. A. MACKLING: I've already indicated, Madam Speaker, I will tak e as notice the questions the honourable member puts, and I will do that. Manitoba Energy Authority - access to Board meeting Minutes MR. D. ORCHARD: Madam Speaker , my question is for the Minister of Energy and Mines.

I think several days ago I posed the question about access to the Minutes of the Manitoba Energy Authority Board meetings. Has the Minister made a decision as to whether the Opposition has access to those Board Minutes? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Energy and Mines. HON. V. SCHROEDER: Thank you , Madam Speaker. I believe I answered those questions. MR. D. ORCHARD: Then, Madam Speaker , since the Minister indicates he's answered that, then I take it that I have the authority to go over and read the Minutes of the Manitoba Energy Authority Board meetings. Is that the answer he's giving me today? HON.

V. SCHROEDER: I would suggest that the member read the reply. MR. D. ORCHARD: Madam Speaker, is the Minister denying access to the Manitoba Energy Authority Board meetings, yes or no? HON. V. SCHROEDER: Madam Speaker, there has never been access to t hose Minutes. I indicated previously to the member that the Authority, set up by the government he was a Cabinet Minister in, is in the midst of commercial negotiations which I will not have him leaf through, no matter how much he might enjoy it. MR. D. ORCHARD: A question to the Premier.

How does denying access to the Manitoba Energy Authority Board Minutes, a public corporation of the Province of Manitoba, fit with his governmen t's policy of open and divesture of information to the public of Manitoba? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. H. PAWLEY: Madam Speaker, there is a difference between open government and stupid government. The honourable member is demonstrat ing which side of the fence he is on, Madam Speaker, insofar as that description is concerned, because . SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MADAM SPEAKER: Order please, order please. HON. H.

PAWLEY: Madam Speaker, the Honourable Member for Pembina certainly demonstrates what side of the description his performance in a particular government would suit. Madam Spe aker, the Minister of Energy and Mine s has indicat ed , quite clearly I thought in this House, that there are matters of negotiation that are under way. While matters of negotiation are under way, Madam Speaker , it is important that those negotiations remain, in the public interest, as they are at the present time, not open to the particular scrut iny of the Member for Pembina . MR. D.

ORCHARD: Well a supplementary then to the Honourable First Minister. Since he has now confirmed that his government is not open , in that it is denying access to the Board Minutes, is he now saying his government is stupid? MADAM SPEAKER: The honourable member should know not to ask trivi al questions. The Honourable Member for St. Norbert. Eliesen, Marc - contracts MR. G. MERCIER: Thank you, Madam Speaker , I have a question for the Minister of Energy and Mines. Last week he, in response to an earlier question from me, indic ated that Mr.

Marc Eliesen rents a Volvo , at a cost of $529 per month to the taxpayers of Manitoba. Since then, he's indi cated this is in excess of the guidelines. Could he indicate how much in excess of the guidelines this rental figure is? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Energy and Mines . HON. V. SCHROEDER: Madam Speaker, I don't know that the $529 a month is in excess of the guidelines .

The vehicle is in excess of the guidelines, that is, there were criteria for motor vehicles sent out to government departments - (Interjection) - Yes, instead of Buick Electras for Tories, which are far more expensive than that Volvo , far more expensive . MADAM SPEAKER: Order please , order please . Qu estion period will not deteriorate into fighting matches between two members. Could the Honourabl e Member for Pembina please contain himself? MR. D. ORCHARD: Yes, Madam Speaker. MADAM SPEAKER: Thank you. 1208 The Honourable Minister of Energy and Min es. HON. V.

SCHROEDER: Madam Speaker, I reall y don 't want to put on the record more nonsense from the Member for Pembin a. I want to a nswer the quest ion , and the answer is that there were criter ia set out in terms of the standard s of the vehicl es, the s izes and that sort of thing, whic h I understand that

part icu lar Volvo does exc eed. That doesn 't neces sarily mean that, on a per month basi s on a lease, it is over the cost of a vehicle that would be within those guideline s. If the member wishes, I could get the guidelines, the y're fairly clear.

Tuesday, 24 June, 1986 MR. G. MERCIER: Madam Speaker, as I understand the guidelines, they only refer to the use of a compact vehicle . Could the Minister indicate fo r how long this car was rented at a rental rate of $529 per month , and whether there will be any steps to have Mr. Eliese n reimburse the tax paye rs of Manitob a? HON. V. SCHROEDER: Madam Speaker, as I understand it, it's a three-year lease . We would expect that, at the end of the lease, the next lease will be for a vehicle which will be within the guidelines .

The Manitoba Hydro did make those arrangeme nts, and they will be carried on until the end of them unless there would be any saving in doing otherwise, which I don't believe . MR. G. MERCIER: Mad am Speaker , could the Minist er perhaps clarify his answer. Will Mr. Eliesen be asked to reimburse the taxpayers of Manitoba for being outside of the guidelines with respect to his rental of the Volvo? HON. V. SCHROEDER: As I understand it, at the time the lease agreement was entered into, the people involved with the lease of that vehicle were not aware of the guidelines . That is what we've been informed.

That being the case , and they had made the arrangements for their chairperson, I don't think it would be appropriate to now come along in the middle of the contract and say, pay some money back , when they felt at the time that they were doing nothing improper when they weren't aware of those guidelines . Scientific Research Tax Credit Plan - criminal charges MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Morris. MR. C. MANNESS: Thank you , Madam Speaker , I direct my question to the Minister of Finance .

Whereas Revenue Canada 's Deputy Minister, one Harry Rogers, says he'll push the Federal Government to change quickly one of their laws that will allow people who have abused the Scientific Research Tax Credit Program to face criminal charges and, given that the former Minister of Finance charged that those who took

part in such a scheme were guilty of legalized theft, did the Minister of Finance, in his meetings last week with other Ministers of Finance across Canada , did he lend his support to discussions surrounding this matter? Was he supportive of any possible changes in law that would allow charges to be laid against those who are guilty of that act? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Finance . HON. E. KOSTYRA: Well I'm pleased to comment on that matter , Madam Speaker , even though it is a decision of the Federal Government. No, there were no discussions on this issue at the recent Finance Ministers' meeting.

The Federal Finance Minister did not place that issue on the table for discussion, but I can tell him that, at an earlier bilaterial meeting that I held with the Federal Minister of Finance , I raised that issue and concurred with his action with respect to that particular item . MR. C. MANNESS: Will th e Manitoba Government be pushing Revenue Canada to review claims filed under the quick-flip provisions of the CRTC in order to rescind tax breaks associated with improper claims ? HON. E. KOSTYRA: Yes, Madam Speaker , we support the action of the Federal Government.

Indeed , the issue of the one parti cu lar enterprise in the Community of Mor ris was referred to them by staff of our department. MR. C. MANNESS: I would ask the Minister whether they wou ld push the government to review all possibly improperly conducted operations or programs und er any constituted company that entered into scientific research programs. HON. E. KOSTYRA: I would encourage the Federal Government to ensure that all fede ral statutes, all federal laws , are kept in a state of compliance , whether they be tax laws or otherwise.

I would encourage the Federal Government to continue to do that, as I think they are doing. MR. C. MANNESS: A final supplementar y, Madam Speaker . I'm wondering if the Minister of Finance can indicate whether the Auditor 's Special Audit into the 115 Bannatyne affair has been completed and, if so , can he indicate whether we 'll see that report by the end of this week? HON. E. KOSTYRA: To my knowledge, it has not been completed.

I have not received any report from the Auditor and , as I indicated at the time of release of the information that we had asked for that audit, it will be tabled for information of members at the appropriate time, once it's received . Employment, summer - effect of federal cutbacks MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Memb er fo r Burrows . MR. C. SANTOS: Thank you , Madam Speaker. I'd lik e to direct some questions to the Minister respons ible for Employment Services and Economic Security.

Can the Honourable Minister tell the members of this House what is the general effect of the cutback of the Federal Government on the Summe r Job Creation Program in the Province of Manitoba? MADAM SPEAKER: Order please . Could the honourable member please rephrase his question, that question is not within the admin istrative responsibility of the Minister . MR. C.

SANTOS: Given that the Province of Manitoba 's program for job creation is also dependent on federal support, can the Minister tell the members of this House what the effect of that federal cutback is on the Job Creation Program in the Province of Manitoba? 1209

Tuesday, 24 June, 1986 MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Employment Services. HON. L. EVANS: Madam Speaker , the fact that the Federal Government has cut back now for two years in a row approximately $1.3 million to $1.4 million per year, two years in a row , it has made a considerable impact on the provincial employment program s for youth and students this summer.

The fact is that there 's more pressure being put on Careerstart, which has been maintained at $8.5 million and, regrettably , it has had a detrimental effect on the non-profit organization s in Manitoba who have not been able to get the amount of supp ort that they've had in the past from the Federal Government ; and who, therefore, have not been able to create those useful jobs that we need in Mani toba. Employment, summer - effect on Northern Manitoba MR. C.

SANTOS: Can the honourable Minister also tell the members of this House and the people of this prov ince about any special impact of that fede ral cutback on Northern Manitoba? HON. L. EVANS: Madam Speaker, because the Federal Government has tended to emphasize the private sector , at the expense of the non-profit sector , this has had a particularly regrettably negative effect on Northern Manitoba , where we don't have the same degree of private enterprise, same degree of business to provide opportunities . So, therefore, Northern Manitoba particularly has been adversely affected by these federal policies.

MADAM SPEAKER: The time for Oral Questions has expired . ORDERS OF THE DAY MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Governm ent House Leader . HON. J. COWAN: Madam Speake r, before moving the motion , I would just remind members of the House th at we will have the three committees meeting concurrently this evening at eight o'cloc k: Statuto ry Regulation s and Orders; the review of the Estimates of Agriculture in the House; and the Estimates of Commu nity Services outside of the House in the committee room.

Madam Speaker, I move that Madam Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be grante d to Her Majesty, seconded by the Minister responsible for MPIC . MOTION presented and carried and the House resol ved itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty, with the Honou rable Member for Burrows in the Chair for the Department of Agriculture; and the Honourable Member for Kild o nan in the Chair for the Department of Co mmu nity Services and Corrections . CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY - COMMUNITY SERVICES MR.

CHAIRMAN, M. Dolin: Committee come to order. We are consider ing Page 33, Resolution 31 , Item 3.(

c) Manitoba Developm ental Centre - the Member for Portage la Prairie . MR. E. CONNERY: To the Minister, Mr. Chai rm an , I want to go back to the $75 per diem at the Manitoba Developmental Centre and $110 at the St. Amant. The information I got , there was no program in place to begin phasing in the MDC to the same level. Two things - will she cons ider it and how can she justify $75 at one and $110 at ano the r, when basically they 're the same type of institutions? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Minister of Commun ity Services. HON. M.

SMITH : Just before ans wering this specif ic question , I'd just like to table two items . One is the statistics and explanation on the term time at the MDC. The other is a status report from the Welcome Home. It's the reports that are given by the regional committees at the monthly meetings of the steering committee . There 's an upd ate, as of April 30, and then att ached, a June 18 update, so you'll see the form in whi ch the regional plans come forward to the central steering comm ittee. Now back to the other question of the different ials.

I think what I said when I commented on them before is that throughout the social service area there has been a pattern , for time immemorial - decade s I guess - of resp ond ing to requests for funding in a rather disconnected way. There hasn ' t been , in many program areas, a concerted effort to deve lop a more systematic approach where there is a continuum of services available, levels of need are clear ly identified and funded in some kind of rational way and comparability and equity of access throughout the province . We have started to develop such an approach .

It is not a program that is written down in stone anywhere ; it's a political commitment to bring more equity into the system . There are issues of collective barg aining and year-by-year variations of program and so on that accou nt for variations . But in our overall desire to bring greater equity into the system, we are int erested in closing the gap between these differences . The per diem figure for the MDC is somewha t understated insofar as the maintenance costs show up in the Government Service budget rather than the MDC budget,

whereas th e St. Amant is a separate organization so all the costs would be reflected in their per diem. MR. E. CONNERY: Does the Minister know what that diff erence is? HON. M. SMITH: I don 't readily have access to that. It might be a question you could raise when you 're dealing with Government Services. These accounting systems have followed a certain patt ern, and over tim e again , I know I would certainly like to know the total functional cost of MDC , but to date we don 't have th at type of breakup . MR. E. CONN ERY: One of the concerns th at has been raised to me by several people and also the Member 1210

Tuesday, 24 June, 1986 for River Heights also raised the question of the qual ity of life at the MDC. I guess the emphasis, and rightly so, if a judgment had to be made as to where the money went, that the fire safety would have to be the priority over aesthetics, but the quality of life, the reclining chairs that we used to have and different things along that way, the inside decorations that would give some life to the place, is that going to be somewhat improved? It has take n a very back place to fire safety and fire safety as I perceive it is good in everywhere except Northgrove . HON. M.

SMITH: One of the three thrusts of Welcome Home has been to improve the quality of program at MDC, so I would agree that some of the aesthetic aspects at MDC could be improved. Institutional care can also improve in quality and the type of surroundi ngs can certainly assist as well as the programs. MR. E. CONNERY: What is the workload of social workers in the retarded program? I am told that it is in the area of 150. HON. M. SMITH: I think when we get to 3.(d), I can give you the stats on that. That's the program's portion of this area. MR. E. CONNERY : Can the Minister give us a comparison, Mr.

Chairman, between the cost per person in the Welcome Home or in the community versus at the MDC? HON. M. SMITH: I missed the first part of your question. MR. CHAIRMAN : Give the cost comparison between the Welcome Home and somebody in MDC. HON. M. SMITH: Just a m inute, I have the residentia l care per diems, but we're also building in the other elements as well. Aga in, I can give you the residential rates for the group homes . That would be the residential portion. When we come to 3.(d ), I can give you the day activity rates. Again, there's quite a range because of the variation in placement in the community.

I don't know if the member's looking to see if there is a similar expen diture, a reduction or whatever. I should add that part of the community thrust is to improv e the programs for the at-risk people , so the figures are not always broken down. I'll give you the residential rates for the group homes under Welcome Home: the base rate is $23.63 per day, the capital component added on can be the actual amount up to $7.72 per diem. The additional care support based on individual assessment of need ranges from $8.39 to $33 .56, so that the total range is $23.63 to $64 .91.

The re can be a higher rate if the re are very special needs and they would be approved individually by the steering committee. MR. E. CONNERY: You mean to say in Kin Glen or one of these residential homes, that is what it would cost to keep a resident in that home in the total cost? HON. M. SMITH: I'm not sure if the name you're referring to is one of the homes in the community. Yes.

Some of the instit utional per diems , I guess because of the nature of institutional care and at least round­ the-clock shift coverage, some of the extra problems that arise when you have such a large number of people together , institutional per diems do tend to be higher than what's achievable in the community . On the other hand, where community options have been developed elsewhere , it's found, although there may be a slightly lower start-off cost , that in time the expenditures are very similar.

Wages have a way of moving up and there are some supplementary needs that need to be met so that a community option should never be justified as a money­ saving device. It should be justified on a quality base. That, in fact, is what we have been doing. MR. E. CONNERY: Are all of the costs: the physiotherapy, the social worker, all of the things that go into the community, in that figure? Is this the tota l cost of the residents, the whateve r and the infrastructure of all the support services tota l, total cost? HON. M. SMITH: No. MR. E.

CONNERY: That's the figure I'm looking for - the bottom line at the MDC , the bottom line in the community taking all things into - (Interjection) - HON. M. SMITH: We don't total up all the costs because of the different mode of service delivery, but I can give you the key elements. 1211 The residential figures , I've given you . The day programmings range from $10 to $20, based on the individual level of need. There are , in add ition , some behavioura l counsellers that can move in and assist with behaviour situations.

We have speech therapists, mental retardation workers, vocational rehab worker s in the field, and gradually there will be a larger number . They will be the, sort of, case managers. They won't be involve d in the day-to-day delivery of the program but they'll be there to help with the planning. We have also put in an evaluation process so that we can see if there are any gaps and they should come up with some comparative costs for us. Some of the services, for example a lot of the health serv ices and education services , will be absorbed under what we call the generic service.

They will show up under Medicare and under Education costs. MR. E. CONNERY: I still think we do have to be able to have a cost comparison, or know where our costs are going when we're entering into a program. To get a program full-blown and going and then find out that there just is not enough money to carry it, as we see the restraints , I think we're dealing with an ideological idea that I'm afraid the province isn't going to be able to afford and we're going to put a lot of people into turmoil and in conflict because of it. There's a real concern. HON. M.

SMITH: Again, I said it was a matter of political will and a belief in equity and quality. This government has not cut back in this type of service to the least advantaged citizens in spite of difficult times. Instead,

Tuesday, 24 June, 1986 we have moved ahead with this type of system reform. We are committed to equitable access and fair quality of life to disadvantaged whether we're in periods of restraint or not. That's our polit ical commitment , and it's strong and it's been demonstrated by our actions . If the member has concerns about what another government might do, he's entitled to those concerns, but I, for one, feel, as a result of current and past experience with my government, that our comm itme nt is there and our actions support that commitme nt. MR. E.

CONNERY: The Minister said , "in a time of constraint." Are we in a time of constraint? HON. M. SMITH: I think the rest of your life and my life will be lived in an era of scarcer resources . I think the basic issues that we still have to face are how do we share available resources among the members of the community; and we believe that good times or bad, a

summary distribution is necessary and that the disadvantaged members of our community have a particular cla im on a rea sona ble share. MR. E. CONNERY: The Minister , in earlier remarks , said she was trying to get it balanced between the institutional situation and the Welcome Home and the community living. Does the Minister not also have a feeling for those who are paying for the programs , who are private and build a home and raise a family? There 's a lot of people in this mix that have to be addressed.

We could do everything for every disadvantaged person but nobody would be working because there wouldn 't be any point and we'd be taxed to the limit . Is this the goal of the government , to tax this generation and the future generation beyond reaso n because of some sort of ideological idea? MR. CHAIRMAN: I would suggest that is not really in order for Item 3.(

c) on MDC . That is a question of a general governmental nature which is more properly brought up during the Budget Debate or the Throne Speech . If you'd like to ask further questions on MDC , specifically, we will entertain such questions . The Member for Portage. MR. E. CONNERY: Has the Min ister looked at the Michener Centre as an alternative to the Welcome Home Program or as a modification on the Welcome Home Program, nice little residences, all the facilities available and interfaced with the city, everything there? A MEMBER: Where is that in? MR. E. CONNERY : Red Deer, Albe rta. HON. M.

SMITH : In reviewing the opt ions and consulting with the Manitoba groups that have been interested, the consensus has not come down in favour of that model. I don't know , the Chairman may rule me out of order if he wishes, but referring back to the tax issue, I believe that the very tax reform proposals that our government has been putting forward . . . MR. CHAIRMAN: I think that is out of order . You' re encouraging debate on an item which is not within these Estimates. HON. M. SMITH: I accept the ruling of the Chair, but want it noted that I was not reluctant to give an answer . MR. E.

CONNERY: I'd like to thank the Chairman for being equal. It's appreciated . MR. CHAIRMAN: Chairs are impartial. Some members are not. The Member for Portage. MR. E. CONNERY: I'm going to wind up my part on the MDC at this point , but I do want to make some comments . I feel that the credibility of a lot of the stuff that we've heard , the information that's been presented , has been damaged severely by the remarks over the fire protection and when the pieces of plastic turn into a full-blown protection system, I feel that it's unfortunate that members are given information that isn 't the right information.

It concerns me very much when we're dealing with something as sensitive as the unfort unat e people and, while maybe we're concerned about the costs, we're also concerned about the ind ividuals . So it leaves a credibility gap in the whole debate. Also , it leaves me with a lack of confide nce in the direction that we are taking.

We have asked on more than one occasio n to have an impartia l review of the retardation program in Manitoba in all aspe cts of the retardation program so that all people , who I feel is the other side of the coin, could have input , then the general public would have a pretty good impression as to who really is giving information and is the government listening to all sides. It is my feeling that the Minister is listening to one side of the coin with people who she is surrounded with, and then there's the other side of the coin which is in the community which she is not siding with.

Just one last remark and this is a letter of material that came from the Manitoba staff, and it says: "Th is information sheet and questions were prepared by the staff at the MDC Centre, who care about the quality of life for the mentally retarded wherever they live. It is very evident that the quality of life will not be maintained at the MDC as overcrowding and shortage of staff already exist.

Whoever is instructing all these changes is obviously trying to make the MDC a hellhole and to look like one , it is absolutly inhuman e." That is coming from the people who are working with the residents of the MDC, and have a real deep caring concern . Thank you, Mr. Chairman . HON. M. SMITH: Again , I respect the member's perspective, but I also disagree. The issue about the broader inventory of parts required in fire upgrading, they are more than what I was aware of, the plastic pipe supply .

However, a full -blown fire and safety upgrading would have required replacing the door frames as well as installat ion of the magnetic locks, etc., and would have been a far more costly and extensive process than the member suggests. With regard to the confidence re the direction, we are elected to sort out policy directions, evaluate them and make a choice. We are not here to be imp artial. We are here to listen, to evaluate the options available , 1212

Tuesday, 24 June, 1986 and indeed to come down in favour of a direction. We have done that. In the process of arriving at that, we did listen to a broad representation from the commu nity. Perhaps it's the first time that this particular program has been directed and shaped by the full range of community groups interested in the field of the retarded.

With regard to the issue of crowding and staff shortage, I can only say that any crowding or staff shortage that is there is something that has existed for a very long time that we've been making steady progress and are committed to making further progress in reducing the crowding and enhancing the staff ratios and improving the facili ty. lt is not something where we can over come neglect from the past in an immediate way, but the direction we're moving in is in the direction of reducing any crowding and improving the ratios. So, with respect, I disagree with the comments. MR. E.

CONNERY: The Minister mentions neglect from the past. What is she referring to? HON. M. SMITH: Fifty years of operating institutional care for the retarded may have been a best effort at the time, but the situation at MDC is not something that has been created in the last three years coincident with the Welcome Home thrust. There's been a pattern of service del ivery and inmate acco mmodation and staffing that if we have made any changes in it, it's to reduce the problems identified, not to aggravate them. MR. E. CONNERY: I would like to remind the Min ister , Mr.

Chairman, that members opposite take great delight in saying that they have been in office for 12 of the last 16 years. If there's a shortc oming, I think it has to be accepted in that light. Thank you. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Mem ber for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Can the Min ister ind icate how many people she will move out of the Manitoba Developmental Centre during the calendar year 19 86? HON. M. SMITH: Our figures are not based on the calendar year. We've distributed information to show the numbers we expect to be moved by the end of this year.

Now, if there is some additional value in having the calendar year, I may not be able to produce those numb ers immedia tely. However, I think that probably the relevant numbers are the total numbers ach ieved dur ing the Welcome Home Program and where we will be by December '86. Is that sufficient for the member? MR. G. MERCIER: What is that numb er then? HON. M. SMITH: Again, we're having a little difficulty to try and get at the question because we don't have the calendar year stats.

If it is to deduce whether or not there will be enough moved out of MDC to vacate Northgrove, we have a minimum of 85 that will be moved by December '86 with an expectation that we'll far exceed that and be well over 100. We have 45 new spaces in Southgr ove that can be used temporarily while we're completing the reduction and then those spaces will be available for program enrichment. MR. G. MERCIER: I thought it was the most simple question that could be asked, Mr. Chairman. I'm just looking for the number of people who are going to be moved out. I said the calendar year.

If she wants to refer to the fiscal year, that's fine, or for the balance of this year. I'm dismayed by what appears to be a lack of approaching this problem in an efficient way. HON. M. SMITH: I did say that from now till the end of the year, a minimum of 85 and probably up closer to 11 0, in addition to what have been moved out for the previous years, and that if we run into any difficulty in downsizing the Northg rove popula tion, the full amount, we have 45 spaces in South grove that can be used as a back-up until we complete the downsizing. MR. G.

MERCIER: Is the Min ister sure that there will be sufficient commu nity residences available to accommodate 85 people for the balance of this year? HON. M. SMITH: We went through a lot of this yesterday. I handed out the list of people for whom the planning was well along and another somewhat shorter list for whom the planning is at the stage where the application has been made for mortgage approval. I also handed out the update reports from the regions and it is our estima te that we will achieve our target. MR. G. MERCIER: Who is in cha rge of the implementation of this program? HON. M.

SMITH: The Assistant Deputy Min ister, Joe Gels, is heading up the process and he's supported by an advisory committee, in addition to staff people that are involved, of the following organizations: The Manitoba Council on Rehabilitation and Work - they're the workshop, day activity place; the Association of Community Livi ng; the Auxil iary to the Manitob a Developmental Centre; the St.

Amant; Parent-to-Parent; the Sanatorium Board, which operates the Pelican Lake institutional se tting; the Coalition of Residential Providers; representatives from Housing and from Education; and the Manitoba Recreational Association. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN, D. Scott: The Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Thank you, Mr. Deputy Chairman. Just a comment.

I'm sure every body is well intentioned with respect to this whole program, and I thank the Minister for providing us with this inforamtion she tabled with the committee today and yesterday, and maybe it's the nature of this type of work, but the comments with respect to the possibilities and proposals and mortgage applications, and proposals being considered by such and such, comments th at were made throughout these reports seem to be very inconclusive. lt seems to me there should be a clearer way of administering this program and advising the Minister in a more certain way as to the prospects for achieving some of these residences, say, for example, by the end of the year. 1213

Tuesday, 24 June, 1986 When you compare the Status Reports with the Mortgage Financing Report and the Fact Sheet, there appears to be a great deal of discrepancy between all of them. I would think that perhaps the Minister can ask that some more concise, precise information be made available with respect to this whole program and the residences that will be available this year. Could she indicate, on the one sheet, the Welcome Home Program Status Report as of June 17, shows four residences cancelled. Could she just give me in a general way why they were cancelled? HON. M. SMITH: The last question first.

The houses that they had identified were far too pricey for the program . With regard to the earlier comments, though, because the program is based on working with community group s and community boards, and because it's based on planning for individuals and developing appropriate accommodation and programs for them, it is not a program where the centre says we'll put in 24 group homes and then slot people into them. It's a circular process, if you like. That's why, in a sense, everything is moving along.

The process for applying for mortgages and so on, though, because we're coordinating at the department end with housing, we can anticipate approval because we know the money that's allocated and we know the criteria that they will apply. So, in a sense, we are coordinating at the government end and we're working with community groups . I think that there is adequate control in the sense that the central decision-making group is the steering committee but they base their decisions and their approvals on what is coming forward from the regional teams, and each of them is proceeding at a slightly different pace.

In a sense, the circular process is working and we are achieving the goals set. MR. G. MERCIER: I do appreciate the difficulties in doing this because there would have to be accepted by the community, and the families and individuals involved have to come forward to help make it work. I'd just like to ask one question, Mr. Deputy Chairman . In the list of grants to external agencies , I find no mention of St. Amant . Could she indicate whether that has been left off the list of payments, or where would we deal with St. Amant? HON. M. SMITH: It shows up under 4.(

f) as an external agency, 4.(f)(4). The reason it doesn't show up in the grant list is that it's funded on a per diem basis. I did identify, when I handed out the list, that not all the grants were paid on the same basis. MR. G. MERCIER: I suppose we can talk about that later, but it used to appear - for example, in that list of 1984-85, it appeared on the sheet with respect to payments to external agencies. Has there been a change there? HON. M.

SMITH: I think I've been saying as we went along that we're trying to not just have separate organizations that come in and negotiate the best deal they can, but some sense of a system . What are we purchasing; what is the administrative cost; what are the range of levels of need, and the associated per diems, to build some order and equity across the system. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: 3.(c)(1)-pass; 3.(c)(2)­ pass; 3.(d)

(1) Programs, Salaries. MR. CHAIRMAN, M. Dolin: 3.(d)(1) - the Member for Rhineland . MR. A. BROWN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman . Before we start in on 3.(d)(1), I would just like to serve notice that I will be asking for detailed information under Financial Assistance and for External Agencies. I want the figures paid to each one of the external agencies and financial assistance given . I want that for the year'85, '86 and '87, so this is going to give the staff a little bit of time to prepare. The reason why I'm doing this, Mr. Chairman, is I'm very concerned about what has happened in th is particular area .

In 1985-86 or for the '86 Estimates, there was $28,000,952 was approved and the bottom figure, we've only spent $18,000,623 and th is came directly out of External Agencies, so External Agencies have been cut back drastically . I want to know just exactly how much they have been cut back and how much it has affected each particular area, the cutback. HON. M. SMITH: Yes I can appreciate those questions. I think Harvey will find that the adjustments to the 1985- 86 vote that I will give you will expla in the shift. There is no reduction in money, it's just showing up in a different place.

I'll go through in some detail. Basically this area provides program direction standards and evaluation for care , accommodation, rehabilitation and assistance to physically and mentally disabled persons. The adjustments made to the 1985-86 printed vote are as follows: In the Salaries area, 571.9 was reduced ; the'85-86 was adjusted to 546 to reflect a net decrease of one staff year that was transferred to Child and Family Services Division. Now the reason for that will show up as I proceed.

On the Financial Assistance side $11,071 ,500 was reduced to $10,738 ,200 due to a transfer of $390,900 to Children's Special Services. That's basically a respite care item and it's being handled through the Children's Services side so it's not a reduction of service , it's a shift in program responsib ility area . A transfer from $57,600 from Prog rams : External Agencies - that is to cover the Steinbach Developmental Centre and COR in Brandon. It's again, to take external agency grants that used to be under - it's to shift program grants into an area where there is a program responsibility.

This dep artment used to give a lot of miscellaneous grants for miscellaneous services and what we're trying to do is gradually shift those grants over to a program area so we can get program advice as to whether we should expand or maintain at the same level, reduce or change the method of funding. It's to make sure we have some analysis and accountability for the program. 1214

Tuesday, 24 June, 1986 Under External Agencie s the $17 ,230,000 was reduced to $7, 260,000 because of a transfer of $9,9 12, 400 for the St. Amant Centre to the Special Chil dr en 's Services. The $57,600 tran sferred to Programs Financial Assistance - that was just the internal one I referred to before. Again, it's to shift the institutional care for childr en away from this adult program over to the general area of Child and Family Service under the Special Children's Service. So again, no reduction in money, just a reallocation of program respon sibility. MR. A. BROWN: Well, Mr.

Chairman, I hope that we'll be getting documentation of all these particular areas so that we can make actual comparisons as to where this money went because this is something that we definitely want and it' s very difficult for us to determine where this money went just by the Min ister making a statement. That's why I served advance notice that when we get to those particular items, that we will be wanting that particular information. HON. M. SMITH: Basically the whole of 4.(

f) is new. Those services were delivered in a variety of other places before. That's probably the key shift. We 're trying to separate them. Instead of taking all the mental retardation programs, children and adults, and leaving them in Community Social Services Division, we've taken the children's portion and put it under the Child and Family Services, feeling that's where we can best get the continuing services in the home and in the institutions. MR. A. BROWN: Mr.

Chairman, I noticed that the money had been transferred over to Child and Family Services and I was going to address that particular item when we got over there. But in the meantime, we still do want to know just exactly what happened with the external agencies. Was there a cut back in funding? That's why it's necessary for us to go back to 19 85 so that we can make valid comparisons as to the exact funding that the external agencies did receive. HON. M. SMITH: Again, I think the Estimates procedure of putting in reco nci liations are ensuring that if something has transferred, there's no loss.

There is a process in Estimates that does that. I guess I asked the members to accept that that is the method whereby the reconci liations are made. The particular comments I'v e made will be available in Hansard shortly and you'll have a record of them. MR. A. BROWN: Okay. I hope that these fact sheets are going to be available so that we can see where the actual monies went. Now getting back to (d)( 1) , I wonder if the Minister can tell me how many SY's there were and has there been any drastic changes in program direct ion other than the Wel come Home Program? HON. M. SMITH: The same number of staff, 15.

The salary increase is $29,000, just a general salary increase. MR. A. BROWN: I asked whether there had been any change in program direction other than the Welcome Home Progr am. Have any new programs been implemented by this group? HON. M. SMITH: Ye s, the overall thrust of the Wel come Home had the th ree parts: 220 out of MDC, another 220 people at risk in the community with enhanc ed serv icing, and improvement at MDC.

In moving the people out of MDC and picking up the at-risk group, the main thr ust there was a develo pment of the residential levels of care and standards through the whole system; also the development of the workshop system, the development of standards and a general rate increase. In addition, there has been a development of respite care and standards relating to it: a crisis intervention service, super vised apartment living, training of both clients and people caring for them.

There is, in addition, vocational assessment and training programs offered for the post-mentally ill and the physically handic apped and thrusts in employment development and work experience. So, at that point, we broaden the vocational activity from the mentally retarded group to the broader group. Those are the main services offered by this group and they are funded under the Financial Assistance line. MR. A. BROWN: Can the Minister explain to me just exactly what she means the at-risk group? HON. M. SMITH: Ye s, there are approximately 4,000 people with some degree of retardation in the province.

Of those, approximately 1, 000 or slightly fewer are in instititions. The others live in the community in one mode or another. There is a group always at risk of institutionalization. They may be youngsters whose care is too much for the family and there are various programs to support the family in their care or provide alternate care in the community for the children. There are then adults of age who may require in dependent residential arrangements and work placement. Probably the largest group at risk are the people who are living with aging parents.

Ye ars ago, in a sense, we didn't have quite so much of this problem because retarded individuals didn't live as long, but they are living longer and parents who have been able to care for them over the years may thems elves be becoming frail; so if there's no alternative arrangement made for th eir relatives, th ey run the risk of institutionali zation. MR. A. BROWN: The Minister also mentioned crisis interv ention. Now is she telling me that this particular area is doing programming or is also involved with 4.(e), Family Dispute Services, or what kind of crisis intervention are we talking about? HON. M.

SMITH: The type of crisis that occurs in this area is a sudden behaviour shift on the part of the mentally retarded person, and the crisis intervention team assists the local care giver in assessing what the cause of the behaviour change is, and together they develop a way of handling it. I think I referred to one example a few days ago when I said there was a young man who had been moved out of MDC into a residence and his behaviour 1215

Tuesday, 24 June, 1986 became somewhat aggressive after a period of time. In the past that would have probably led to immediate reinstitutionalization. In this case, the crisis intervener moved in, observed the individual, talked with him, discussed the situation with the care givers. What they concluded was that the young man, having more freedom and time on his hands, was in fact in need of more activity, more recreational activity, more challenge, so they proceeded to design an enriched program for him which worked very well.

At the same time, they found that other residents in the household, though not presenting as obvious a behaviour shift, also were in need of more activity, and so it was provided for them. What we ended up with was an enriched program, a happier gro up of individuals, and no need to reinstitutionalize. MR. A. BROWN: Standards and evaluation for care and then we have accommodation. I suppose that the evaluation would be four programs, but would they also be doing standards on accommodation and evaluation?

As a matter of fact , would they be doing somewhat the same type of job as what we had under Residential Care Licensing where you also look at standards , where you look at accommodation? Is this group involved in the same type of program? HON. M. SMITH: No, it's a complementary type of evaluation . It's looking at all the services and how they interconnect. MR. A. BROWN: How much of the money spent over here - and I suppose that there is a definite division between the physically and the mentally disabled person.

I know that this is one of the things that the physically disabled have mentioned to me a number of times that really they do not want to be involved at all with the mentally disabled persons because their problems are different. Can the Minister tell me approximately what the breakdown would be in these items between th e physically and the mentally disabled as far as dollars is concerned? HON. M. SMITH: I don't think I have that type of breakdown here. Many mentally handicapped people do have physical disabilities; not all physically disable d people have mental disabilities .

The type of progra m support we have is to try to provide the appropria te care for the individual. In general, if the domina nt problem is the mental retardation problem, they 'll be handled through this program. If it's a physical disab ility, they'll tend to come through the health system , but there are some crossovers. Basically, this progra m though, it's main thrust is for the mentally disabled. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Brandon West . MR. J. McCRAE: I wonder if the Minister has the information we talked about yesterday respecting COR Enterprises and ARM Industries in Brandon. HON. M.

SMITH: Yes, we'll dist rib ute it. MR. J. McCRAE: Thank you. HON. M. SMITH: Perhaps while you're waiting for that, I could just add that the Vocational Rehabilitation Services, the primary service for physically disabled, goes through the Society for Manitobans with Disabilities and the Canadian Paraplegic Association. No, it was the Society for Crippled Children and Adults. No, it is one of our components as well, but the programs aren't usually identical. MR. J. McCRAE: The Minister mentioned the Society for Manitobans with Disabilities . I'd like to know what services that society provides in general terms.

HON. M. SMITH: SMDI has a children's component but is funded under the Child and Family Services area. For adults , it offers a Vocational Assessment and Training and Employment Preparation Centre. The Employment Preparation Centre has two components, one for people who can move out or, hopefully , can move out into integrated employment and another sheltered workshop component. They also offe r counselling and job placement . MR. J. McCRAE: Mr. Chairman, how is one classified as disabled?

I'm thinking of someone coming to this society for help and being turned away on the basis that the applicant wasn't disabled. What is the guideline? What kind of people can be helped? HON. M. SMITH : Again, I guess this is where we're dealing with history and how different groups achieved assistance. Most groupings started out as disability­ specific and then, over time, some have become more general. SMDI has changed its name and, I think, aspires to be a cross-disability group to a certain extent. But the great majority of its clients are physically disabled.

There would be a referral system, I'm sure, among agencies or through the departmental workers . I don't think a person would be turned away because the service wasn't appropriate. If ever that should occur, I'd appreciate our regional offices being alerted, because that's where the sorting out would occur. MR. A. BROWN: I wonder if we would be able to get the information that I requested on financial assistance and the external agencies . Can we have a breakdown of thos e figures? Are they available for us? HON. M. SMITH: We'll compile informatio n for the member .

I draw his attention to the fact that we did distribute payments to external agen cie s which compared the 1985-86 and the 1986-87 amounts. Under Community Social Services, he'll find a listing of the major groupings . This is the pape r I'm referring to. It was handed out yesterday or it might have been the day before , last week. MR. G. MERCIER: Are we on the payments to external agencies now? MR. CHAIRMAN: Well, we're dealing with 3.(d). MR. A. BROWN: We're dealing with the whole thing. MR. CHAIRMAN: All of 3.(d). 1216

Tuesday, 24 June, 1986 The Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, I notice the amount going to Te n--Ten Sinclair has been increased from $559,000 to $658,000.00. Last fall, it was reported that a number of quadraplegic patients were being kept in $500-a-day ho spital beds while che aper acco mmodation would have been available at Te n-Te n Sinclair if they had had funding in order to operate the beds which they estimated cost between $75 and $85 per day, as compared to the $500-a-day hospital bed. I believe this occurred as a result of a cut by the department for Te n-Te n Sinclair Street from the previous year. First, I would ask the Min ister, and it was ind icated in the

article that Mr. Cels was studying the matter, could the Min ister indicate what the amount of the deficit was for Te n-Ten Sinclair during this last year? HON. M. SMITH: Perhaps I could appr oach the question from another angle. The member has correctly pointed out that, during the year, there came to be a bit of a pile-up of people in the rehab hospital who could have profited from the Te n-Te n Sinclair placement. The problem at Te n-Ten Sinclair was it was meant to be a transitional housing location where people would come, get trained in inde pendent living, and then move on to low-rental housing.

The low rental housing wasn't developing at a fast enough rate so there was a congregation of people there, or insuf ficient support services to meet all their needs. In fact, they did appeal to us mid-year. We did study it and we did increase their grant mid-year to enable them to get through the year and then we have maintained that extra this year. As you can see, the increase is $99,400.00. it's the full year cost of operating at a slightly higher level. MR. G. MERCIER: So there was no deficit at Te n-Te n Sinclair for the year . . . HON. M.

SMITH: I think what you're referring to as a deficit was the fact that they were running into a deficit position had we not moved in and incr eased the grant after we'd studied it. As so often happens, the problem gets reported but not the solution. MR. G. MERCIER: Are they now able to operate at full capacity? HON. M.

SMITH: Ye s, but the problem could repeat itself if we don't have development of low rental housing or some suitable housing for them so that there can be a flow through because we were getting incr eased nu mbers of people needing that service. it's our hope, since a lot of the paraplegics who primarily are using that facility were the result of automobile accidents, that some of our driving safety provisions may reduce that number; that's our hope. MR. G. MERCIER: The report last fall ind icated there were 10 people waiting to move out of Te n-Ten Sinclair when housing became avai lable.

Does tha t same problem exist now? HON. M. SMITH: Since the housing end of it is not in our department, we sort of indic ated our support for 1217 development of the housing, but it's not - I guess it's one of the legacies of the Health-Community Service split that portions of that service are in our department and portions in Health. However, Health has been developing the focus units and also there are, in quite a few public housing developments, some suites developed for people who require special aids.

To our knowledge, the Health and Housing people are working on that, but we don't have direct departmental responsibility for that. So in a sense we got the increased demand at Te n-Ten without the necessary associated ability to influence the other programs di rect ly, but we ha ve met with our counterparts and trust that those problems are being dealt with. MR. G. MERCIER: I wonder , Mr. Chairman, if the Minister could indicate how many people are presently in Te n-Te n Sinclair just waiting for government housing. HON. M. SMITH: I don't have that.

I can get that detail. lt is a 75-unit complex and 50 of the units are specially designed for moderate to severely physicall y handicap ped adults. We can get that information for you, but I don't have it at this point. I do know that there's been one special unit opened called Fokus IV, but that will come under Health. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, I would ask the Minister to unde rtake to get that information.

The Health Estimates will be coming up in a little while and it may very well be an issue that we want to take up with them as a result of the information she may be able to give to us on the number of people in Te n-Ten Sinclair waiting for government housing. HON. M. SMITH: Ye s, we'll get that. We 'll also try to get some read ing on the demand pattern over recent years. MR. G. MERCIER: There's a grant for $25,000 to the Manitoba League for the Physically Handicapped. I would never oppose such a grant, but I wonder . Is this a new grant in this department, for the league? HON. M.

SMITH: We did respond to their request mid­ year by rea llo cat ing. They are a cross-d isability consumer organization with a membership of 4,500. it's an umbrella organization that's been providing leadersh ip and development to member organizations. lt now appears in this year's Estimates. MR. G. MERCIER: Does this department carry out the main liaison with the League for the Physically Handicapped or do they simply deal with whichever department they have a problem with at the time? HON. M. SMITH: The answer is yes and no.

In the past they have gone to specific departments for the generic service, but in recognition of the desirability of having a focal point, we have appointed a coordinator of the di sabled and that person will be in our depar tment. it's to coord ina te the Decade of the Disabled, but they will have some - how should I say it - they'll be able to advise and work with the disabled

Tuesday, 24 June, 1986 community as they attempt to influence generic services in all departments. MR. G. MERCIER: Can the Minister explain the grant to the Children 's Rehabilition Centre? Where is that? HON. M. SMITH: That's the program for preschool ers in what was the old Shriner's Hospital - I'm not sure what they call that complex now - but there is a program for preschoolers who are profoundly disabled and that provides the transportation for the children. MR. CHAIRMAN: 4.(d)(1) - the Member for Rhineland. MR. A. BROWN: Thank you. I'm still really waiting for those figures.

What I'm trying to get at is much more of a breakdown than what we have over here . I'd like to know how much Altona was getting as far as a grant is concerned. How much did Winkler get? How much did Morden get? How much did Steinbach get? How much did any of these associations receive so that we can have much more of a breakdown than what we have over here? HON. M. SMITH: Yes, the individual residences are funded on a rate system . I gave the rate system earlie r. So it would depend on the level of care of the individuals there and the associated rate. MR. A. BROWN: The Minister mentioned that the St.

Amant Centre was no longer funded, I believe, by her department. Is that correct? HON. M. SMITH: St. Amant, did you say? MR. A. BROWN: Yes, St. Aman!. What happened at St. Amant? HON. M. SMITH: It shows up under 4.(f), the sizeable amount there, $10 million. MR. CHAIRMAN: I think it was ment ioned under External Agencies (4)(f), I think the Minister mentioned earlier. HON. M. SMITH: Yes, it's just that the responsibility centre in government has shifted from an overall mental retardation program under Community Social Services to Child and Family ~ervices .

We're trying to put ali these services to children under one umbrella on the basis that we're better able then to prov ide the continuous services and the particular mix of services that an individual or a family woul d require. MR. A. BROWN: Okay, that's one of the things that I was not clear on. Pelican Lake Training Centre, what is happening ove r there at the present time? We've been hearing rumours that there have been big changes. HON. M. SMITH: The total amou nt allocated to Pelican Lake Training Centre has risen from 1,894,100 in 1985- 86 to 2,027,300 in 1986-87.

The increase of 133,200 includes 70,800 to meet fire commissioner requirements for staff-client ratios, 22,700 for the union contract, and 39,700 as a general operating increase . It provides residential care and specialized developmental and behaviour tra ining to 70 mentally handicapped adults. All the residents are ambulatory, and the majority are severely to mode rately handicapped. It's administered by the Sanitarium Board of Manitob a, and is supported financially by this department. MR. A. BROWN: Are they going to be affected by the Welcome Home Program? HON. M.

SMITH: We're looking at using them as a transition centre for people who are moving. To date, they haven't been heav ily involved. MR. A. BROWN: I notice that the Manitoba League for the Physically Handicapped has not received funding so far. Is this the first time that they're being funded by this department? HON. M. SMITH: I think I've already answered that. They were funded during the previous year, but their grant was given during the year. They are now on a regul ar 25,000 grant basis . They have been an umbrella organization, developing sort of among the different disabilities.

It's a consumer organization or a self -help approach , and we're finding it a very valuable source of advice and ideas on how best to deliver services to the handicapped to enhance their ind ependenc e. MR. A. BROWN: Well I really have no fur ther questions, except I did want to have those figures that I could take a look at them and satisfy myself . There might be some questions arising out of those figures. 1218 MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Rhineland , there are a couple of option s we have here. We cou ld pass the item.

We could rise early, and continue in the evening if the Minister could undertake to get you those figures . Is that possible? HON. M. SMITH: What I could give is the totals for the different functions . I've already given the rates for the residences. What I have listed and could copy is the list of the residences, their capacity and the rates on which they're funded. But what it doesn't give is the total per residence for the year, because that would depend on who they had in, whether they moved people in or out part-year, total year.

The total amounts for community residences are 5,748,400 ; addit ional care and support , 2,838 ,200; supervised apartment living, 396,400; respite service, 528,500; crisis intervention, 141,000; vocational , pre­ vocational and day acti vi ty, 5,296,600; and transportation, 952,300.00. MR. A. BROWN: There is no way, Mr. Chairman, that we can remember all those figures witho ut . MR. CHAIRMAN: Well it'll be in Hansard. MR. A. BROWN: Yes, they will be in Hansard but, by that time, we will have passed the item and we won't

Tuesday, 24 June, 1986 be able to get back to it. This is just the problem that we have come to. HON. M. SMITH: What is available is the total amounts per function right across the system . What we also have is the listing of the names of the residences , their capacity, their capital and per diem rates, but we don't have the total that would add up to for the year for each residence , because that depends on who they have in their residence for what porti on o f t he year. That fluctuates . In other words, we're not giv ing flat grants to residences .

We're giving them on the basis of who they have there and their requirements. MR. CHAIRMAN : Is that the information the member's seeking? MR. A. BROWN: Yes. MR. CHAIRMAN: Then I would suggest, if that can be available this evening, the time being 4:30 , it is time for Private Members' Hour. I interrupt the proceedings until 8:00 p.m. SUPPLY - AGRICULTURE MR. CHAIRMAN, C. Santos: Committee come to order. This

section of the Committee of Supply has been cons idering the Est imates of the Department of Ag riculture. We are now on Item 6.(c)(1), Manitoba Natural Products Marketing Council, Salaries. The Honourable Minister. HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman , I wish to provide for honourable members - there were a number of questions raised dealing with appeals yesterday heard by the council. I would like to place on the record that for the year 1984-85, April 1, 1984 to March 31, 1985 , there were 20 appeals - 4 granted, 15 dismissed - 4 appeals under beef, 8 milk, 5 egg , 3 turkey.

April 1, 1983 to March 31, 1984, there were 12 appeals - 3 were granted , 9 were dismissed - beef, 6; milk , 3; egg, 2; turkey, 1. April 1, 1982 to March 31 , 1983, there were 18 appeals - 7 granted, 11 dismissed - milk , 9; vegetables, 1; eggs, 7; chicken, 1. Those were generally the scope of the appeals that were handled in the last 3 years, and they generally are in the 10-20 appeal range, fairly consistent year­ in and year-out. Mr. Chairman, the Member for Roblin-Russell raised the question of remuneration provided to bo ard chairmen.

Per diem expenses for the chairpersons of each of these: for the Chicken Board, $7,250 per diem; Under the Egg Board, $17 ,625; Hogs, $17 ,036; Milk, $52 ,886 ; Turkey, $4,700; Vegetables $2,925.00. There, of course , would be out-of -pocket expenses in addition to these per diems that members of the board and chairpersons would claim for as out-of­ province travel and related to the board activities. There would be addition al r emuneration there as well. Mr.

Chairman, the per diems for the members were $105 per day - that is, for cou ncil members; the chairperson received $105 per day plus a monthly allowance of $100 for ongoing duties ; and members received $80.00. The Chicken Broiler Producers Marketing Board, the chairperson receives $125 per day ; vice-chairperson $100; and directors $100. The Turkey Producers Marketing Board: chair $125 per day; vice-chairperson $100; and directo rs $100. Hog Producers Marketing Board: The chair received $5,000 per annum plus $120 per day; directors received $110 per day plus a travelling time allowance .

Milk Producers Marketing Board: chairperson receives $170 per day; directors receive $123 per day. Vegetable Producers Mark eting Board : directors' half-day meeting fee $35, full-day meeting fee $35; chairman's stipend, $150 per month in recognition of other duties. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Virden. MR. G. FINDLAY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman . In the per diem list there's obviously one boa rd that's way above the rest. I didn 't catch the first one - Chicken. Could you give it to me? What was the Chicken per diem total? HON. B. URUSKI: Chicken, $125 for the chair and $100 for ... MR. G. FINDLAY: The total. HON.

B. URUSKI: Oh. For the chairperson? MR. G. FINDLAY: Yes. HON. B. URUSKI: $7,250.00. MR. G. FINDLAY : Okay. There's obviously one board that spe nds an awful lot more than the rest, the Milk Board. Does the Minis ter have any reasons for that? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, we are not directly involved in the day-to-day operations of the board. That remuneration, of course, would have to be approved by the board of directors and I am assuming by the membership in terms of those duties.

Clearly , if there would be any reasons in which there would be questions in terms of the duties involved, I am sure that board members and, of course, producers would be raising those areas. I can only assume , Mr. Chairman , that the chairman of the board makes it a function of his duties to be at that board office. I have not done the calculations but they're virtually on a f ull -time basis . MR. G.

FINDLAY: The figures you gave us here just this afternoon, are they detailed in the annual report for each commodity; and have there been any questions raised at annual meet ings about those figures, those per diems, the number of days that the per diems are collected; and what has been the response of the boards? 1219 HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Chairm an, I'm advised that only one board prov ides the precise detail s in the ir a nnual

Tuesday, 24 June, 1986 report, and that is the Vegetable Board. The other boards have not provided that in details in their annual reports. These matters do get raised, as I understand, from time to time at board meetings. Some of the boards have taken the position that these fees are confidential and have not released them. Their producers have, from time to time, raised these issues with the boards. Of course , I would think that if producers felt very strongly about that, they certainly should press it clearly at the annual meeting and have those figures released. MR. G.

FINDLAY: What posit ion has the council taken on this, and have they given any direction to the boards as to the advisability of releasing this information because it's producer money? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, council 's position, I think historically has been that that informat ion should in fact be approved by the membership at their annual meetings in detail. By the very nature of our legislation , we are unable to force them to make those details although counci l does receive their budgets from most of the boards and fairly good cooperation from most of the boards .

We are, of course, hop ing that all boards will in time reflect those kinds of wishes and be prepared to provide that information on an ongoing basis and , as well as to council, release it their membership. MR. G. FINDLAY: Does council not have to approve those budgets, those final reports? And if they do, why not withh old the approval until that detail is supplied? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, I'm advised we do not approve the budgets. We are notified of them . Nor do we approve the per diem rates; that is a board and membership decision - Oh, we do. I'm sorry.

We do approve the per diem rates that are sent in to the council. MR. G. FINDLAY: Am I to take from that, then, that council approves of the presen t method of not fully divulging of these details? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman , most certainly, I, as Minister, do not approve, and neither does the council , of those kinds of methods of withholding the information. In fact, in order for us to receive the information, we are unable to have voluntary compliance. We had the records of, for example, the Milk Board audited twice to make sure we knew what the actual expenditures were for and what they had been .

So we've gone in and audited them so we would be certain what the expenditures were . I don't approve of that at all, Mr. Chairman. In fact , we may have to consider amending the legislation in dealing with this question. I believe that producers themselves should as well raise these matters at the annual meeting . It is a concern at various times and, of course, in many instances , the issue dropped . But it's one that I believe it may be time that the government reviewed the legislation dealing with the disclosure of their financial statements in detail and we should in fact look at changes in this area. MR. G.

FINDLAY: I would agree with the Minister that some action is needed in that area, and I would request that he follow through on his comments and see that something is done in the very short term. One more question. You mentioned two audits on the Milk Board . Is the council satisfied with what they found in those two audits? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, I'm advised that the expenditures incurred were all receipted; whether or not we may have proof of those expenditures is another matter .

But in ter ms of what was in the budget and what was cla ime d as expenditu res, the audit, I'm advised, did show that all expenditures incurred were receipted and were able to be shown where the money was spent. MR. CHAIRMAN: Th e Honourable Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, we ended last evening on the discussion on broiler produce and whatnot, and I've partially perused his answers .

I think the Minister recognizes the problem that has been caused to small flock producers of broil er hens by the rest riction to 499 birds from the previous 999, given that we've got an industry - it's one of the few ones in the controlled marketing commodities . Would the Minister give consideration to a change in the regulation in allowing it to go back to 999 so that small family farms can get in on this windfall of increased demand and increase d produc tion, instead of clamping down on the small family farm allow them to have 999 birds? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, there is no restriction on broilers .

It is at 999, I'm advised . MR. D. ORCHARD: Is the Minister telling me today that my producers, who wish to produce broiler chickens - the examples I gave him last night - that the y can produce 999 birds, have them killed through their processing plants as they could in the past and not have any penalty? Is that what the Minister is telling me today? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, the member made the statement as they have in the past .

If the facts show that his constituents processed their broilers through a recognized processing plant in the last, as I'm advised, two out of the last three years, that practice can continue . MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, the Ministe r is very interest ing in his remarks . Now , can the Minister answer the further question? If new individuals with children want to prod uce broiler hens, are they allowed to produce 999 and have access to a licensed killing plan t to have them proces sed under the Minister's new regulation? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman , no.

There can be up to 1,000 broilers produced for what is normally known , 1220

Tuesday, 24 June, 1986 and has been, that's been the whole area of the allowance of the exemption is for family use and neighbourhood use of the commodi ty, normally what would be kn own as on-farm slaught er. The member knows, because of the fact that the production from unreg istered produc ers beyond what is involved in the quota that Manitoba producers receive from the na tional quota, any overp roductio n by unr egis tered producers results in a penalty to be paid by registered produc ers and that is the reason. lt's only picked up, Mr.

Chairman, because those birds which are produc ed and slaughte red through processing plants, that's where the records are, of course, maintained. The re is no penalt y agains t the pr ovince and province 's registered prod ucers if the product is produced and slau ghtered at home on farm and used domestically within the family or their neighbours. That's where the difficulty occurred, and that's where the change in regulations requested by the Broiler Chicken Marketing Board were changed; we acceded to those requests. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr.

Chairman, that's exactly the point that I've been trying to make with this Minister. We're not in an indus try that is contracting in terms of its production volumes. We're into an industry that's exp anding. The Min ister is saying that a 999 bird flock is quite all right provided they don't go through a licens ed killing plant, because there is where the y are counted acc ording to the national production scheme.

The point I'm making to the Minister, and he full well unde rstands th e point I'm making, is th at in an expanding market why would you allow the expansion to go to the largest existing produce rs at the penalty of 999 bird flocks on small family farms? If you've got the ability to pass on additional production volumes, as has been happening, why do you restrict them to the largest prod ucers at the expense of the smallest producers? Why did you accede to that regulation change?

I ask the Minis ter if he would not consider it prudent to reverse it back to allow small family farms to get in on the 999 bird production and use of regis tered killing plants so that their local customers can avail thems elves of what basically is custom killing services at a licensed killing plant? Those birds are taken in live and taken out processed and frozen for their customers, and they don't impact on the markets that th ose plants tr aditionally supply from the major producers. Mr. Chairman, the case is clear.

I'm urging the Minister on behalf of the smaller farms; that's who is affected by his change in regula tion. He knows that. I ask him to reconsider it in an expan ding market. I'm not making the same request for eggs, because the Minister made the point, and I have to agree that, okay, if you have a contrac ting market, you have to protect those people that have major investments, but here we've got a market that's expan ding and the larger producers are growing with it at the expense of no new entrants even with 999 birds. That regulation could and should be changed to the benefit of the small producers.

I'm asking the Min ister to give it consideration for the benefit of those small family farms. 1221 HON. B. URUSKJ: Mr. Chairman, I do have sympathy in terms of new producers starting out, and the member makes a convincing argument in terms of why anyone who wants to get in can get in, in an expanding market. Mr. Chairman, the board has a process by which new producers can enter the ind ustry and receive quota, because that's really what the member is alluding to: can a producer receive quota to produce a product?

There is a list that the board maintains in terms of any additional quota that it receives from its national marketing share and, in fact, the bulk of the quota. The new quota that's been issued has been issued to new producers. Although, Mr.

Chairman, it has not dealt with those producers who may have been unregis tered produc ers whether they wanted quota, and that's an aspect that I think I should take under advisement and raise with the board as to the possibility of in fact allowing those producers who don't want to go bey ond, say, the 1, 000 or 2,000 birds, but have a custom service, be designa ted as regi stered producers. So when the y go through a plant, the rest of the indus try is not penal ized by virtue of a penalty on the overproduction that does occur .

That's an aspect I think the member raises that I will take under advisement and consi der. I think there may be some room for compromise in this area, and I appreciate the honourable member's comments. MR. D. ORCHARD: To the Min ister, I'v e always found it confusing in that we get caught at the lic ensed killing plant, even though it's only a custom killing operation because, as I say, the birds go in, they' re killed and eviscerated and frozen and out again. They're not part of the supplies.

Can these operators be accommodated by having - well, it's within the regulations - a non­ accounting day custom killing service, and not even become part of the count because they are serving a local market? I think the Minister und erstands the question well enough that I won't pursue it any furth er, and I look forward to his comments in the future on that. Mr. Chairman, I want to move to another area with the Min ister. There is a new cheese plant that is theoretically ready to go or will be ready to go in Arborg, a division of New Bothwell apparent ly.

There seems to be some confusion as to whether it will open, and latest ind ications acc ording to - and I almost hate to use the Free Press as a source of information because members in the government have said they never get their facts right - (Interject ion) - oh, you're not from the Free Press, okay. Well, if you're listening, Free Press, I hate to use it, but I'm going to take my chance because members of the government absolutely hate the Free Press lately because they never get anything right. A MEMBER: They don't release the facts either . MR. D.

ORCHARD: Well, that's the other problem; this government still doesn't release the facts even when the Free Press is wrong. MR. CHAIRMAN: Irrelevant. MR. D. ORCHARD: Absol ute ly, Mr. Chairman. - (Interjection) - Mr. Chairman, would you care to have

Tuesday, 24 June, 1986 the Minis ter back there withdraw those derogatory comments that he put on the record from his seat? I don't expect him to because I don't take the Min ister that seriously sometime. But, Mr.

Chairman, there seems to be a dispute in the Minister's riding in the Arborg cheese plant over the imposition of a new cont ract wherein the management are saying on the one hand that they can't afford to operate the plant because the labour costs on the new labour contract will not allow them to have a net profit at the end of the year. lt seems to me that what we've got is a circums tance here of sort of a Mexican stand-off, if you will, where neither side seems to be willing to compromise or to even negotiate.

The obvious problem is that No. 1, there's 23 people that may not work; there's a renovated plant which may or may not be ready to produce cheese that is going to sit idle; and, more importantly, milk produc ers in the Arborg area are not able to avail thems el ves of a milk market which was local to them up until about a year ago or thereabouts.

Can the Minister indicate whether he has used the influence of his office - which is considerable in the Minister's estimation - to actively pursue the problem at Arborg to see whether that plant can get into production in an amicable way, satisfactory to both parties - management and labour - but, more importantly, Mr.

Chairman, and I'm speaking more on behalf of the milk producers up there because the y are bearing the brunt of this labour dispute in terms of incr eased costs that the y have to bear, is the Minister aware - obvious ly, the Minister is aware of the problem because it's in his constituency - is there any method or any inter vention or any discussion the Minister has undertaken on behalf of the Arborg che ese plant to attempt to get its opening and thereby securing jobs and market for milk for the local workers and the local producers? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, we're very well aware of the situation.

I want to advise my honourable friend that as there is no first contract impending, there has been no bargaining as to this point. I think the member paraphrased the situation quite well. lt appears to be a bit of a Mexican stand-off, using his words, in the situation. My colleague, the Min ister of Labour, has appointed a mediator to try and get both parties talking. There was, as I understand it, initial inclination on behalf of management not to even dis cuss any issues and basically close the doors.

We're hoping that some negotiating door can be opened up and that both parties do discuss and that plant ulti mately be opened. For the honourable membe r's inf ormation, as I un derstand it, all the equipment, and the type of equipment is not in the plant yet. The plant, I would say, is virtually complete from the construction point of view but the installation of the equipment has not yet taken place.

There was a consideration, I un derstan d, by the manager operating on behalf of the New Bothwell Co-op that they may in fact go to very, very modern equipment rather than utilize some of the older equipment that was there, which would, of course, have a financial impact on that cooperative as well as have an impact on the labour force in the plant. If both parties could sit at the table and discuss these issues, there ultimately, I would think, could be some resolution to whatever difficulties there might be in this dispute.

But there have been no sessions that I am aware of, of actual face-to-face meetings between either of the parties, and that's what makes this situation difficu lt. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr.

Chairman, is the Minister's understanding of the present labour laws in Manitoba that - I pose this qu estion as a theoretical question and I know that we're not in question period so I won't be ruled out of order - but, basically , do the labour laws in Manitoba allow the management of the new plant to simply open up with a brand-new staff, or is that prevented under current labour laws, and the y must deal with the newly certified union?

The question I'm posing, is that the only people that the management can deal with is the newly certified union, or can they bring in a whole new work force should they decide to open the plant? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Minister of Labour . HON. A. MACKLING: The answer is no. MR. D. ORCHARD: So the Minister of Labour is saying that under current provincial law the management cannot bring in any other workers than the newly certified union? That's what his answer "no" meant; is that correct? Wel l, Mr. Chairman, we've got a problem then, haven't we?

Here we have a newly certified union that's come in and now we've got those 23 newly uni onized workers without a job in a plant - and I take the Minister's word - that may not be ready to go, but certainly the intent was there to have it up and producing, and the union contract that was newly imposed, well, it's a new contract that is in effect. The labour union is now certified to represent those 23 emp loyees and the management has no other alternative, is what the Minister of Labour is saying, than to deal with those 23 emp loyees that are newly certified in their union.

If he tries to bring in any other workers to staff the plant if he decides to open it, he would be in contravention of provincial labour law. That is a circumstance wherein everyone loses, including the milk producers, the town of Arborg, the communit y, the investor in the plant and the people that would be desirous of working there. Giv en the labour laws as I under stand them, now that they're certified it's probably at least a year's process if they decide to decertify.

We 've been through the fiasco at Eaton's in Brandon, where the Minister of Labour burned or tore up his Eaton's credit card at an NDP convention in solidarity with the union movement, but it didn't help those workers in Eaton's, and we may well be in the same circumstance in Arborg, in this Minister's home riding, where we' ve once again got overzea lous un ion organizers organizing a plant and organizing those 23 ind ividuals right out of a job.

I don't know what the Minister of Labour will do now, whether he'll burn a wrapper off New Bothwell cheese or something in solida rity with the labour union movement, I don't know; but it isn't helpful, as I say, 1222

Tuesday, 24 June, 1986 to either the inv estors in that plant, the workers, or the milk producers. You know, if we have too many more situations like this where industry in rural Manitoba is going to be thwarted because of union activities aided, abe tted and supp orted by the New Democratic Go vernment. We 're going to have an economic wasteland in rural Manitoba where we will truly be hewers of wood and drawers of water, with no further processing of our agricultural prod uction in rural Manitoba.

The cheese industry is an interesting industry because we've already faced the closing of the Rossburn cheese plant, and I've lost a che ese plant in Pilot Mound to an expansion at Wink ler, the MANGO expansion in Wink ler, and New Bothwell has been a - wel l, whenever I can, I very much like their product; it's an excellent product. If these people in Arborg are hooked up with the New Bothwell process and enjoy that kind of quality reputa tion, there is a market for their product.

This is not a good situation in Manitoba, and it's been brought on by this New Democratic Party over the past term, and over previous terms, making labour legislation for the union leaders and not for the workers. If this is what is happening here, once again, this party that beli eves and is supported both morally and with workers, and financially by the union movement, and its very existence depends on the union movement in Canada and in Manitoba, this New Democratic Party's existence depends on the unio n movement.

Here we have them paying off their debts to the union movement in legislation that's costing jobs in rural Manitoba. 1t almost cost jobs in Eaton's. Unless this dispute is resolved, it may well cost 23 jobs in Arborg. I don't know Arborg as well as the Minister does, because I don't represent it and I don't go there all that often, but I would suspect the loss of 23 jobs in Arborg would have as serious an impact on Arborg as the closing of the cheese plant in Pilot Mound had, or the cheese plant in Rossburn had. They're significant blows to those smaller rural communities.

The growth of rural communities doesn't have to be stymied by the kind of labour legislation that we see this New Democratic Party bring in to pay off election debts to the labour union organizers and bosses in Manitoba and in Canada. I hope the Min ister takes this seriously and starts doing some serious discussion, undertaking some serious discussion, and doing some serious negotiation with both sides to come to an agreement so that that plant can open. HON. B. URUSKI: Mr.

Chairman, if I have heard inflammatory remarks, they come from members of the Cons ervative Party. lt is they who would preach confronta tion, just by the remarks of the Member for Pembina, in terms of prea ching confrontation. Mr. Chairman, I belie ve that the situation is serious in any labour dispute, where in fact two parties cannot agree, whether it's in Arborg, whether it's in Winnipeg, whether it's in Brandon, wherever it is.

Any labour dispute where an operation cannot or does not open because there is some type of dispute, that there cannot be an agreement reached between two parties, I consider it serious and so do my colleagues. Mr. Chairman, in this case, there was not even an opportunity to sit down and do any negotiati ng. There 1223 were no discussions whatsoever. lt is serious, I belie ve it is, when in fact there is no room to even sit down and discuss it.

I believe that the services required, that have been recommended by my colleague, the Minister of Labour , to try and bring both parties together, is the right solution, recog nizing, Mr. Chairman, that an option in the whole process was, and continues to be and is on the table, that there will not any longer be 23 jobs, or whatever the member says, reading from that article, in Arborg, but would be reduced to something like six or seven jobs if the new equipment comes in. So I'm sure that is part of the discussion that would take place in any negotiating ses sion, if in fact there would have been one.

I can tell my honourable friend that we have attempted and will continue to attempt to get the two parties together to see whether or not whatever differences there are, or whether it's jus t a difference in fact of the owner saying that I don't want a union. If that's the difference of opinion and no discussions take place, then, Mr. Chairman, we do have a difficulty in terms of the rights of workers gett ing together and at least working together colle ctively.

Because, if workers cannot, are not able to get together in union to form a bargaining group, regardless of whether they went with a union that was working out of offices in Winnipeg, or whether they formed their own bargaining agent, they still should have that right. Really , I'm not sure that that's the issue. I hope it is not. I hope that what can occur is that mediation services can bring both parties together to attempt to have that plant operational and completed. Mr.

Chairman, the remarks that the Honourable Member for Pembina puts on the record are, to say the least, inflammatory in these kinds of situations. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, my remarks in no way were inflammatory; my remarks were a factual presentation of labour legislation in this province. If that's inflammatory, then the Minister should reconsider the kind of legislation he's been a party to passing. If my remarks are inflammatory, he's caused them. Mr. Chairman, feature the situation here, and the Min ister alluded to something that's very inte rest ing.

He said that under the newly-expanded plant, with the new equipment, there may only be six or seven jobs, and that's part of the problem, or could be with the Min ister, and I'll give him credit, he said it could be part of the problem. Tha t make s the Min ister of Labour's and this government's labour laws even more interest ing, because here you have a circums tance where a plant employing 23 people und ergoes a modernization process and emp loyees know that the modernization of that plant will elimi nate, let's say, half the jobs.

Current labour laws in Manitoba would allow the 23-mem ber staff to shut down any new expansion of that plant which would modernize it, and protect half the jobs in the future through a modern plant by simply certifying before the new plant ope ned , and then the management, under the labour laws, can't point out that jobs may be lost because that's unfair labour practice by management. They are caught in the circums tance where they cannot do anything within reason to prevent or to discuss the certification of that union.

Tuesday, 24 June, 1986 Once the union is in place, you've got the bizarre situation where the union is certified with 23 members. The person must negotiate with all 23 when the new plant may only need the six or seven that the Minister alluded to. That labour law has now said to any plant in rural Manitoba that the way to stop moderni zation of a plant is to certify and then you can virtual ly, if the new owners don't want to deal with all 23 when they only need six or seven, as the Minister says, you can shut the new plant down.

If that's what's happening out in Arborg, and the Minister really has to sit down with his Minister of Labour and discuss whether the labour laws are serving the working people of this province, or whether they're only ser ving, as I ind icated earlie r, the union bosses in this province.

I suspect that the Min ister , if he used some rational thought, he would find out that's exactly who is benefiting and, most often, the workers are the victims of this kind of labour legislation which benefits the bosses, who suppo rt the New Democratic Party, the labour union bosses who support the New Democratic Party in elections, in fund -raising, in morale and personnel support during elections - (Interjection) - Supplying candi dates to the New Democratic Party, you bet.

We've got an interesting situation in the Minister's own backyard where indu stry and agriculture, in his own constituen cy, is being stymied, quite possibly by this Minister's own gove rnment's labour legislation, and that's a shame, Mr. Chairman, that is indeed a shame. MR. CHAIRMAN: 6.(c)( 1) - the Member for Virden. MR. G. FINDLAY: Could the Minister give us the makeup of the Natural Products Marketing Council at this time, and has the membership changed since 1984? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, the present makeup of the board is Mr.

David Gislason, who was appointed chairperson, effective October 1, 19 85; Mrs. Maude Lelond as vice-chair . She acted as chair in the interim between Dr. Art Wood's resignation July 1 till the new appointment of October 1; Arnold Edie is a member; Grace Spencer is a member and Mrs. Barbara Tapp is a mem ber. MR. G. FINDLAY: When I look at the appeals that have been going on from'83,'84,'85, I notice a number of appeals on beef. I ask the Minister if any of those members of the board that he just read have been emplo yed by the Beef Commission at any time during this period? HON. B. URUSKI: No, Mr. Chairman.

We were cognizant of the fact that any