PR0VtNCE Of NEWFOUNDLAND AND LABRADOR HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY Volume 1 Number.59 5th Session 34th. General Assembly VERBATIM REPORT THURSDAY, MAY 20, 1971 SPEAKER: THE HONOURABLE GEORGE W. CLARKE

May 20, 1971 The llouse met at 3:00 P.~I. Hr. Speaker in the Chair. PR. SPE,\KF.R: Order! Tape 702 (afternoon) PK - 1 HON. :!..:!.~ f:'.t,\LLWOOD (PT!.D!IER): Mr. Speaker, with pleasure I announce that the Government have today authorized my colleague the :Minister of Public Works to instruct Mr. Angus Campbell, the well known architect,to proceed immediately to the completion of the working and drawings and all other Material that would be necessary to enable the Government to call tenderi: for construction . of the new rer,ional hospital at Carbonear.

As the House is aware,work on these plans began three or four years aro, hut it was delayed while the Government carried out our comprehensive revic-w of the need for new hospital facilities for the Province as a whole. We have decided to proceed as quickly as possible with this hospital as also with the new hospital for Bay Roberts, for which latter we are now proceedinp. with all speed in the development of the necessary functional plan. The re~:!cr.:?l ha~pital at Carhonear will provide regional facilltie5 for about 25,000 people.

It will provide 135 beds and full referal facilities including facilities for the work of a complete range of specialists. The architects have been told to proceed with all possible speed to develop plans so tl,at tenders can be called. This may be a matter of several months but,in the meantime,the Government are proceedin~ to acquire the necessary land at the- site selected for the hospital. Detailed supervision of the plans,in accordance with our usual practice, will he carried out by a committee on which the fioard of the Carhonear Community llospital will be rP.presented. The r.oard have na!T"ecl ~fr.

John J:all,admin:1.strator of the hospital, as their representative. The other members of this CoMnittce will be the Deputy "inister of Health and the Deputy !linister of Public Works. ~•R. ~T'_!'.i\f'.Er: If it ,,•ere not af!ain::;t the rules of the House for the f:1"eaker to cor.r,ent on anythinr- ,ns 1,ell as out of order for any other person to co~nent nn n ministerial statement, 1 ~ould express my delicht in the 4147

nay 20, 1Q71 Tape 702 (afternoon) PK - 2 HR. SPf.Al:ER: announcement by the Premier this afternoon. MR. S'1ALLl-:OOD: It would be out of order, Your Honour. MR. SPfAKF.R: Before we go into the Orders of the Day, I would like hon. mer,bers to welcol!le to the House a group of students, some fifty-three students from Grade VII. They are from the Davis Elementary School in Carbonear and they are accompanied by their teachers, Mr. Antle, Mrs. Tapp ;md !1r. Peat. I Pould also draw the attention of the House to the fact that we have in the Speaker's Gallery today J•fr.

Bob Van Impe, President of the Canadian Amateur Softball Association, Mr. Andy Lappas ,who is the Secretary Treasure of the same organization, and Mr. Larry Skinner, Executive Director of that Association, tor:c> ther with !·Ir. Dee Murphy, President of the Newfoundland Amateur Softball Association. PRESENTING REPORTS OF STANDING AND SELF.CT CO~lMITTEES JlflM. E. FU'.SOR (~!INISTER 0F _FISHERIES): !''r.

Speaker, I wish to table a Report of the Select Committee appointed by the !louse to hear evidence and make recommendation to the, House on a question of a workable and fair a.::c;lstance of establishing fish prices for fish sold by the fishermen to the buyers, and a further question of collective barp.aining for the fishermen. )lr. Speaker, there are just a couple of short remarks I have to state in tabling this Report, (1) is that, the hon. the member for rlacentia West, who was unavoidably absent when we sip:ned this statement, but I am sure we have his consent to do so,1n presentinp. it.

The other is~on behalf of the Committee, I uould like to express our sincere thanks and appreciation to the trade, to the fishernen,thro..;gh their different unions,for their assistance and co-operation during our hearinr.s. I have cories for the Press and the other rnel!lbers of the Rouse. ANSPERS TO Ql'F.STIO!--!f'. ~~-• S~'ALLWOOD1 J.R. Hr. Speaker, I think I have the answer to one question nurnher 470,on the Order Paper of April 14, in the name of the hon, and curious member for St. John's Hest.

There are two parts to the question, The nnswer to the first pnrt is that :;e,,,foundland and Labrador 1' ·sing Corpor:iti.on did not purchase ;i.,y ho"."es fron i\tl:mtic Dcsirn !lor.-ec; since (148

Mny 20, 1971 Tape 702 (afternoon) PK - 3 MP.; SMALLWOOD: April 1, 1970,-1.8 the manner outlined in the question. However, a contract was let to L~ndrigan's Limited for the supply , erection .. . and servicinr, of land for eighty-fo~r \IDlts in Happy Valley, the details of which were given in answers to other questions. The answer to the second part of the question thus does not arise. IION. }T. STARKES: (r!INISTI:R OF Hir.HPAYS): ~Ir. Speaker, I wish to table the answer to question No. 424,on the Order Paper of April 13, asked by the hon. the member for Fortune Bay. HON. E.M. ROBERTS: (NINISTF'.Rl:OF HEALTH): Mr.

Speaker, The answers to a number of questions standing in my name on the Order Paper: First of all, Your Honour, Question No. 434,asked by the hon. the member for Fortune Bay, on the Order Paper of Tuesday, April 13. The answer to part (1) is •·yes." The answer to part (2) is as follows, Sir; (

a) with respect to Terrenceville, within recent dayt-t"hi'/:v~ had discussions with some prol!'.inent citizens from . . ... : that community. 1: explained our .policy to them and I understood from tl,em that they will be in touch with me very shortly, in the ho1,e that they can take advantar,e of our policy to assist ·them in providing a clinic for u;e by the doctor when he visits Terrenceville. (

b) dealt with Rencontre East­ within our policy assistance we have agreed within recent weeks to give $~100 to the Citizens Committee at Rencontre East, This will be used as a part payment of the cost of providing a proper clinic ~Y the~. (c); Is there included in such a plan, the construction of a doctor's residence at Uelleoram, The answer to that is "yes.'' ~uestion No. 445, Order Paper of Wednesday, April 14,in the name of the hon. the member for St. John's West, asked me what was the total maximum rated or normal bed comple~ent of all the hospitals in ,-:ewfoundland?

The answer is, as of garch 1, 1971, there were 3,780 rated beds in ::e,,•foundland, M21 of those t-•ere in Governl!lent operated hospitals and 2,359 were in hospitals other than those operated by Government. The second part of the question does not apply, Sir, because there were actually more beds in use than the so-called rated conplenent, The actual firure of berls tn use, if hon. rerrbers wish it, Sir. 1-·as 3nr-,3_ There were ahout 2011 more beds in use. I i.--ill table,Your Honour,the ansF er to nuestior. '.. ::o. l,56 and 457, both of them on tt..e nrder T',1pcr of 1-·ect ne?,;:d,1.v, 4149

Hay 20, 1971 Tape 702 (afternoon) PK - 4 ROBERTS April 14, each of them by the hon. gentleman for St. John's MR. ·• : West. These are fairly detailed information about Medicare for the year ended }larch 31, 1971. 0uestion No. 458, asked by the hon. gentleman from St. John's West,on the same day's Order Paper, Your Honour, asked how many doctors within Newfoundland have been investigated by "the }:ewfoundland Heclicare Commission or any agency of the Government?

The answer is that all doctors' and dentists' claims are subject to routine audit, A.s of the end of March,twenty-seven physicians and thirteen dentists have had their claims completely investigated for specific periods of time. T~he hon. gentlenan then asked whether the Department of Justice or any other agency had been requested to investigate the accounts submitted by any doctors ·within Newfoundland. to the Newfoundland f.fedicare ;with respect to possible fraudulent claim; and so forth .? 'Jhe answer is "yes; · r_he Department have been asked to investigate the accounts of one doctor and one dentist.

As of the time the answer was prepared for me,recommendations had not beLn received.we have since,I have been told,received recommendation that we do not have sufficient case,in the eyes of our lawyers,received against the dc>ctor in question, So,I have instructed Medicare to carry on in the normal fashion with that gentleman. The other ~entleman,whose claims are being looked at,we still have received no recommendations. Question No, 459,on the Order Paper of April 14, ap:ain the hon. member for St.

John's West asked me;durinr. the Financial Year 1970, hut it began April 1-; 1970.what was the cost of operating the Central Laundry? How many persons were employed? The cost, Sir, was $432,800. There were 105 employees, Your Honour. The I/ hon. ~entleman then said;have the Government received any proposals from pe~sons or firms outside of the Government in connection with the contractinp: out to such persons or firms of the performance of the services and,if so, ,, how many were recelved and have any been accepted by the Governr,eent? The answer, Sir, the Government soup.ht tenders.

Your flonour, of course ,will remember the notices in the newspapers. Pe received four proposals in connection with this, one of these proposals was accepted. Question No. 522, ~ir, on the Orcler P:tpE'r of "'ond:1v, ,\pril 19, the hon. the tr.c:·,hec for St . .lrhn's !'est, The 1nforr.;:ition for •.d1ic11 the hon. rentleri,·m asked ,·as ans• -· f'rr•r in rculy to

May 20 1 1971 Tape 702 ( afternoon) PK - 5 UR. ROBERTS: Question No. 445 1 I think. I probably answered the Question between the time the hon. gentleman asked me and now. I think he has the information for which he asked. MR. CROSBIE: t'r. Speaker, Ouestion No, 459,can the ~inister tell us whose tender was accepted, who is now operating the laundry? · HR. ROBF.RTS: Mr. Speaker, I forp.et the name of it off-hand, ,Yes I it is a firm called ''Laundry Services Limited;to take over the Central Laundry Operations with effect from January 1, 1971.

Question No. 524, on the Order Paper of Tuesday, April 201 in the name of the hon. the member for St. John's West, asked me about the Boylen Hospital at Baie Verte. The answer is that the Government,after consideration and consultation with the appropriate persons, I think, it is fair to include the p.entleir.an from La Scie in that the Rev. Mr. Fellows, ~he Government have decided it is in the best interest of all concerned that the administration of the hospital at Eaie Ve.rte remain with the United Church of Canada, where it has been,of course,since the hospital was opened.

Finally, Sir, the question asked by I t'1e hon. gentleman, my friend the member for 1:ermita~e, ~uestion No. 534, c1 the Order Paper of Wednedday, April 28: The hon. gentleman asked me if it was the Government's ·intention to build a residence for the doctor at St. Lawrence? The answer-is "yes." Actually we will be building a residence for the two doctors at St. Alban's, because there are two doctors there,married to each other. /1.N IION. ME~~ER: Inaudible. !!R. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, I,as a bachelor, cannot tell the minister of Public Porks hov two people could be married to each other.

He will have to take ITlY word for it. No, we are buildinJi; one residence for two doctors. The hon. gentleman asked me Phen 't-!e will be calling tenders and so forth, The Newfoundland and J,abrador Jlousin~ Corporation, Sir, have today officials in thP area investi~atin~ possible sites. We have told them to p.o ahead as quickly, as quicklv as r-h,-.. can. Thev e, pect to be in a position to call tr?nders within the ne~t three weel~s to a l'lonth. Construction will her.in, 4151

May 20, 1971 Tape 702 (afternoon) PK - 6 :m. ROBERTS: I am told.within a fortnight after the closinp. of the tenders and award of a tender. l!R. COLLINS: :-tr. Speaker, before we get to Orders of the Day, I have a question that I would like to direct to the Minister of Public Works. It arises out of reports which eManate from Cander 1which would indicate that some residents of the town have picketed the Town Council Office 1 claiming discrimination in employment practices on certain construction projects taking place in the town.

Before I get to the question, I would like to say that I realize many of the projects which are underway there are of a rer,ional nature and naturally we expect jobs to be provided to the region as a whole. However, I would ask the minister if he could confirm to the llouse that he has investigated the matter and can he assure us that there is no discrimination aP,ainst Gander Town residents? HON. J. r.HAJ.Kr.R: (?mHSTr'R OF PUBLIC WORKS) : Hr.

Speaker, we are making the necessary investieation, but I would .certainly , appreciate it if the question were put on the Order Paper, as I have not got all the information at my hands. I should he able to answer it tomorrow. OPDF.RS OF TF.E DAY CO!-'t'ITTEE OF SUPPLY: ~tR. Cl!AU'l'A~:: Order! Heading XX - Community and Social Development, Page 78. Oo. }'otion I tern 2003-03 throuf h 2005-02-02 carried. ~~R. CR0SP.IF.: He anf1l-esettle~ent now are we? Does the minsiter want to say anything about nural Develo~ment? What is the $2 million for? 'Hll. -RO';,~.i :; .~r.

If the hon. ~entler.1an wants to revert t-ack to Rural nevelorment, Hr. Chairman, I have no objections. I have very little to add to what I have said on other occasions concerning the Rural Development Pror,ramme. I made a fairly full statement on it last year. 1 might say that the difference betl•)een last year's estimate and the revised esti.lT'ates is due to the fact that no rural development arreement was signed durin~ this present year and -:,ur consequent reliance on carry-over projects froM the old .-'-.Pl)A ,\greer.icnt.

I mi.r-ht also say that, i\s I IT'entioned earller .. t~is suhhead is arrro:d·· itcly (i.fty percent_ recoverable frol'.l the Govern,ent of C:m.-1da. :11ere is no '.'.ural T1cvelo'."'nent ,',f·ree1:;ent sil·ned cl5 yet, "r. Ch:tir:--:rn, ~152

May 20, 1971 Tape 702 (afternoon) PK - 7 HR. ROHE, W.N. as a matter of fact, when the old ARDA Agreement expired, ~fr. Chairman, in 1970, it was considered by us and by other provinces in Canada to be the intention of the Government of Canada, not to renew agreements under. _ARDA, under the-old_Act,IIRDA.

Ae a result~ representat:!ons and arguments made by ourselves and other so-called disadvanta~e and rural areas of Canada,the Federal Government decided to continue with Rural Development types of ar,reements, especially in view of the fact that DRf.E Agreements had the .-effect or tended to have the effect of perhap~ favourinp, urban areas over rural areas. Therefore, the Government of Canada decided to eo ahead with a further Rural Development Ar,reement,which we have been negotiating for the past year. Now there are two re~sons why we have not yet signed this agreement.

One of them is that both Governments frankly wanted to have a fairly long period of time in which to evaluate the effects and the results of the old ARDA Agreement and to see whether we were in fact on the right tract in rural development, i.hether the old AFJ>A Agreement really applied to a place like Newfoundland or whethcr,as we had submitted earlier, whether the Act and the Agreement under the Act were t.-'!ally designed for the Western Provinces of Canada and the agricultural areas of say Southern Ontario. Ottawa has started.as a result of our negotiations,has started to lean more in favour of our view.

Although I cannot say or p,ive the substance of the new agreement which we expect to sign, I believe Mr . }~iller, of DREE,probably has it in his possession,now down from Ottawa,the final draft approved by Treasury Board, so we will be signing it shortly, 7-he Governl!lent of Canada has leaned in favour of our view,that Newfoundlands circumstances, as far as rural development is concerned, are unique and that we should have a un:lque or at least different Rural Development A!',reernent for this rrovince, and to take full co~nizance of the problems of inshore fishery and rural fishery, outport fishery development, small fishery developr.ents and small fishinr; nlants,cannin~ factories and that sort of thin,-.

I .rt~ happy to be ahlc to say .without divulp.inr; the actual substance of lt, that the :: have le:med in favour of and our ner.otinticms over the 1:t153

May 20, 1971 Tape 702 (aftemoon) PK - 8 MR. ROWF., W.N. the past year or so have home fruit to that effect. And, I think that we will have signed in another very short period a Rural Development A~reement which will be far 1110re advantageous to Hewfoundland than any other Rural nevelopr,ent .Agreement that this Government has signed with Ottawa. HR. CROSBIE: Hr. Chairman, the amount of the vote is $2 million, Could the ~inister give us some idea what the $2 million is to be spent on? What kind of project?

Would it, for example, include - I notice reported in the paper that up at Bide Arm there was a possibly that there was going to be some kind of a fish plant,that Pastor Reid w4s going to be starting a project up there. The building was going to be constructed to serve as a multi-purpose fish plant and a new 150 foot wharf was to be provided, presumably with the assistance of the Government of Canada or the Government of ?!ewfoundland. Is that the kind of project the minister is talkinp, about? Could he give us some examples of what the $2 million is r,oing to be spent on? l·!P.. '1.')Wr., W. N.

I would he happy to, Mr. Chairman, but my hon. colleaguP, the Minister of Ilealth,who represents t,•at area,does not ,-!ant to let this opportunity slip without having a few words to say on that project, of which he is very proud. l!R. RORF.RTS: ?-'r. Chairman, if each of the members were rip.ht on the excellence of Bide Arm and the virtues of Pastor Reid,the CornI!littee would he some tim.e-indeed.Al.l I can say on the project is that (

a) it is a reality, (

b) I am informed hy some usual reliable source cf the Department of Regional Economic F.xpansion,throu~h the Industrial Incentives Branch, as I say,are most interested in it and I would not be altop.ether surprised Your Honour if they were to make an offer. I think, that is the tem they use, to make an offer to Pastor Reid who, I believe, for this purpose is now inco?'f'orated in Reid I•:nerprises Limited. I guess the only thin!! that I can add is,as I understand the vote whi~h ny colleague is requestinr. the Committee to apr,rove,the project of Bide Am is not under it. Fowever. I 4154

May 20, 1971 Tape 702 (afternoon) PK - 9 MR. ltOBf.RTS: shall have word with Pastor Reid to see if there is some way which we can take advanta~e of this vote. I think I can assure the C011111ittee,with my collca~ue's concurrence, that if there is away he will find the means of ~ettinr, at it. But the fish plant in Bide Am, the letters,written by a very close friend of my in F.nglee with whom I had lunch the other day in Englee on my way to Bide Arm,that project does not fall within the preview, that project is one of the few in Newfoundland to qualify under the Industrial Incentives Programme, as I understand it.

HR. CROSBIE: Is your friend a concerned citizen? MR. ROBERTS: Yes, I had lunch witht~~concerned citizen and his wife._Tbey are very fine people who have cast ballots for me in the past, and I have hope that they will in the future. HR. CROSBIE: They have sworn that they will never do it ·again. JtR. ROBERTS: Before me, Mr. Chairman, for other r,ood people. HR. ROHE, W.N. Mr. ChaiI'1'1an, perhaps, I should answer some of the questions raised by the hon. member for St. John's West,before the hon. ~entleman for Fortune Eay rises. $2 million estimated, Mr.

Chairman, under the Rural Development vote for grants-:f.n- 'lid Rural Development, as I mentioned this will be about fifty percent, slightly over fifty percent shareable by the Government of Canada. It is only an estimate. Our best estimate at the time the estimates were prepared,some weeks or 111onths aJ?o, we expected to be slir-htly above that amount when the agreement is siJ?ned shortly, perhaps, $3 111illion,althoup,h I am not sure on that point. It larrely depends on the n1.1t:1ber of viable projects that have emerged in the past and are on the shelf ready for action or which will emerge in the future.

We are assured by Ottawa and we can ·give assurance ourself, as a Provincial Government, that if viable !)rojects do ener~e \.·hich need assistance fron the Rural Development vote, thl\t no ccilinp , of $2 million ·, or $3 million: if that is in fact exceeded ,will he allow to limit that type of develop~ent. We will be quite rrepared to add core money to that vote durinP, the year, nnd I am sure that Otta,,•a ,-:ould not ;i~ss up an oprortunity to -nak~ furt 11er contrih1tions to P.ural I"cvclornent in ":-:e,~foundlanc!.

So it is only ,:m esti:c .,tc ;1nd il t,nt:ttivl' ceilin:: ;it h\<:t 1,-~'i.ich •·i.11 be inclrn!0cl 'in the

'oy 20, 1971 Tape 702 (afternoon) PK - l(l m~. r.our., w.~1. Rural nevelopipent Agreement. The sort of thing that the vote covers? It is a stranp.e variety of thinr.s, as a T.1atter of fact, that are covered by the•vote. For example. Provincial Parks. fifty ~ercent recoverable from the Government of Canada, under the Rural Development Act. Community pastures,fifty percent recoverable,under the P.ural Development Agreement. Small project of ..... fishery development will be recoverable under tbe·-tlurai Development Act. ' . 4156

May 20, 1971 Hr. Rowe (W.N.) Tape no. 703 Page 1 - MRW As a matter of fact one of the best ways perhaps,in giving the hon. gentleman some idea as to what can be realized under the Act, might be to describe quite briefly what the Fogo Island Improvement Committee have received in the past three or four years from the Rural Development Division of the Department of Community and Social Development,under the Rural Development Act. (For example a local worker) There .was a Government ship yard operated by the Fogo Island Ship Building and Producers Co-operative $35,000 there.

It was called the Fisheries Resource Adjustment Progranme. Herring plant improvements at Joe Bat's Am $2,000 • A revolving fund for the Terra Nova Co-operative Credit Society and the purpose was for loans to boat buyers. A revolving fund for the operating expenses for the Ship Building Co-operative, market research. That revolving fund by the way I just mentioned was $75,000. Provision of a water supply to fit in with the ship building and fishery developments there, plank repairs on Fogo Island for a total, Hr.

Chairman, over the past four or five years,under thP old ARDA Agreement,which is not nearly as conducive to this type of work as the new one will be. The total was $201,000 - over $201,000 going to that development co11D11ittee. Everbody realizes the progress that has been made on Fogo Island since 1967. The lastest figures I have seen show a cut in social assistance from over 200, up around 300, down to 100 people. My hon. friend, the Minister of Social Services and Rehabilitation could confinn that figure.

There is a tremendous reduction in relief or social assistance .since this type of Rural Development Programme got underway. The Eastport Peninsula would be another excellent example of the diversity of things that can come under the Rural Development Agreement, their programme for tourism and related things,which was reco~nized by the tourist industry of Canada. It was given national recognition.

This· sort of thing; ship buildiny,, canning, agriculture, small fishery developments, these rural development associations, which we announced at the Development Conference,concerning which we said the Government of Newfoundland would be contributing $10,000 each, plus $25,000 to the Rural Development Council 4157

May 20, 1971 Tape no. 703 Page 2 Mr. Rowe (W.N.). which you would have a supervisory or advisory function over all these other associations -which again we feel sure will be shared under the agreement, the new Rural Development Agreemen; and any viable project. I can say.categorically~any viable, economically, sound, break-even project which would be of economic and social benefit to people in rural Newfoundland and in the outports of Newfoundland· will be considered and given as much help as pessible,under the Rural Development Agreement which will be signed shortly. MR.

CROSBIE: Who is it decides if it is a viable economic project? Is it the Federal Government or the Provincial Government? MR. ROWE (W.N.): No, there is going to be again one of these dreaded institutions called, I believe in this case a "Joint Advisory Committee'; which would review all the suggestions that would come in and make recommendations to the ministersi Hr. Marchand and myself,as to the acceptability of this. We hope , .that will work.

I cannot say that I am overcome with enthusiasm for that kind of a process but it seems to be the trend that Ottawa is taking and the hard front they are putting up with all types of agreements, all over Canada. I hope it works. I feel sure it will work. If it does not work, we will have to find another method. MR. CROSBIE: Before the hon. minister leaves me and passes on to some other member; of the $2 million, how much money has the minister actually got committedl Of that $2 million, some of it presumably is already copper­ fastened down for certain things.

How much of the $2 million is the minister free to play around with? Is there $500,000 of this actually committed for projects this year? Is it all in the air, elastic and can be used for any viable project that comes along or a slush fund~ MR. ROWE (.W.N.): On that, Mr, Chairman, there are a number of coD1111itments, under the Provincial Parks Programme and the Col!Dllunity Pastures Programme, of several hundred thousand dollars. I do not have the exact figure but I 4158

May 20, 1971 Tape no. 703 page 3 Mr. Rowe (W.N.): can find it out from my hon. colleague, the Minister of Resources. There are several hundred thousand dollars .committed for parks and for community pastures, Again I would like to emphasize what I said earlier~ We put a ceiling on it for the purposes of accounting.

As the year progresseF if we need more money, more money will be forthcoming both from our own Government and from the Government in Ottawa, If there were no more to be forthcoming from the Government in Ottawa, we would be quite happy to use up our own Provincial sources for this type of economic development, and work out some arrangement whereby we claim against next year's money/ even if we had to push it off into the future, But Ottawa is very sincere about this type of rural development and they would be eager to contribute as much money as possible.

The fact that there are several hundred thousand dollars committed for practical purposes of this $2 million, really has no bearing on it. ~f more money is necessary, more money will be forthcoming. MR. CROSBIE: Yes. HR. EARLE: Mr. Chairman, may I have permission to go back to the previous item. We went through it so quickly that I did not get an opportunity to ask some questions on it. House-moving equipment - MR. CUAIIUIAN: Order please! The House--moving equipment, has not T>een passed yet. We are just about to deal with that one, Shall I call that now? HR. WORNELL: Mr.

Chairman, I understand we are still on resettlement, MR, CHAIRMAN: The Item is 2006-07, House•Moving Equipment. MR. WORNELL: I wanted to speak on 08 Mr. Chairman, MR. EARLE: We are back to 07. Is 08 passed? •m. ROWE (W.N.) Mr, Chairman point of order. I think my hon. friend here wants to talk about 2005-08, if I am not mistaken. We will pass it if we go to the hon. gentleman, MR. WORNELL: Do I have thP floor Mr. Chairman? 4159

May 20, 1971 Tape no. 703 Page 4 Mr. Womell. Mr. Chairman, I do not wish to delay the debate on the estimates but as resettlement affects my district, I think I should say a few words. We are on resettlement, Mr. Chairman. MR. CROSBIE: No, we are on 2005-08, Grants-in-Aid Rural Development. MR. WORNELL: I am very sorry Mr. Chairman. I cannot hear very well. HR. CROSBIE: Mr. Chairman before we leave 2005- 08 - I am sorry. Go ahead. ''After you Alphonse." No, I have one other question on thRt Hr. Chairman •. This is rural development. Could any of the money, i.e., be used in the Placentia area?

This is not money that has to be spent in the eight special areas. It could be spent anywhere including the Placenti~-Freshwater-Jerseyside area? Well have thPre been any projects suggested for that area that would come under this $2 million vote for the general Placentia area? MR. ROWE (W.N.): There have been pro·jects suggested,Mr. Chairman,and some of them are being worked on now bv the Local Development Committee • I think I am correct in saying that we made a grant to them to continue to hire a local worker.

There is als~ money from Ottawa, because it is considered to be a special case, to go to this Rural Development Association. I do not remember all the projects that are involved. I will find out for the hon. gentleman and if I am not violating any confidence or anything, I will inform him of it as soon as I can. MR. COLLINS: Mr. Chairman, there seems to me to be some contradiction here, because we are talking now of rural development and immediately behind that we are talking of resettlement.

Certainly those two items are contradictory because the record has been for a good many years that every possible inducement is being given, is being financied,for the people to move away from some of the smaller areas in Newfoundland. We, on this side of the House, have always been of the opinion that greater emphasis should have been paid to rural development. Now the minister or the Govemment are trying to have the better of two worlds. They are going to provide funds for rural development. On the other hnnd a considerable amount of funds have heen provided for resettlement. ,;,.. 4160

Hay 20, 1971 Tape no. 703 Page 5 Hr. Collins Now I would ask the minister to respond and say who decides where rural development is going to take place. Certainly there are a great number of rural c0111111unities in Newfoundland where,because of the resettlement trend, the leaders of the communities have moved away~which means that some of those will possibly die a natural death. It might take two years, five years or ten years unless some other leadership arrives on the scene.

Now how is the minister going to determine where funds are going to be spent for rura~ development while on the other hand people in some of those communities might be moving out and applying for resettlement grants? Certainly, Mr. Chairman, this is very contradictory to me. It brings to mind something which I heard on a open - line programme concerning some pavement in the town of Eastport. Eastport was mentioned here just now. There is a half mile of road which needs to be paved in the vicinity of the Canadian Ler,ion there. Many of the residents have voiced their opinion of the great need for this to be p~ved.

They have gone on radio an·d expressed their opinion. One lady on the progra1111'!1e was quite outspoken about it. She was asked,why do you not take this to your member and see if we can r,et something done about it t Allegedly the member said that we are not doing this paving at Eastport because I did not get any votes there. Now this is from a radio programme. Now this is another contradiction. Is this the fault of the Govemment,that we are going to provide funds for rural development where there a1ea lot of votes? Are we roing to resettle the people where there are not votes?

Would the minister let us know what his views are? MR. R. BARBOUR: Mr. Chairman, would the hon. member for Gander really like to know what the lady said? HR. COLLINS: Let us hear it. MR. BARBOUR: She said to me: 'tf you do not pave this area, you will not ·get one vote here.'' I said to her that I never did with Eastport anyway,and that is the truth. That is what I said to her •• As far as this paving is concerned, when the delegation came in :-IR. COLLINS: You never did ~ct any votes ·the re. 4161

Hay 20 0 1971 Tape no. 703 Page 6 Mi. BARBOUR: As far as this paving is concerned, when the delegation came in last year to meet the hon. Premier, I was present and the Minister of Highways and the agreement reached then was to pave only the main street through the community of Eastport and that was done the same as was done in Sandy Cove and the same as was done in Happy Adventure. Even while this lady might have attacked me this morning, I can tell the hon. member that I have received very favourable telephone calls.

I have received congratulntory messages and letters from the people about the great job that the Liberal Government have done on the Eastport Peninsula. J:IR. COLLINS: The member· will be dusted out. if he does not get the pavement down. HR. BARBOUR: I got news for you. You know that there were 147 Liberals in Eastport, Happy Adventure and Sandy Cove who signed my nomination papers. Does that seem like I am going to be kicked out? MR. COLLINS: They must have been resettled because the hon. member admitted that there was no support there. ~R • . BARBOUR: I am going to tell you something else. (Now you started me).

HR. SMALLWOOD: That is the stuff. HR. BARBOUR: When this election is called, I am going to tell you what is go:1.ng to happen. I am ~oing to be sitting on this side of the House with the same number of colleagues that we have here now and perhaps more. lfR. COLLINS : The only chance is that if the Speaker decides to drop •• MR. BARBOUR: I think it is very lousy, very mean on the hon. members part to repeat what was said on "Open Line" this morning by one individual. You should be ashamed of yourself and take it back, if you got any guts. i:IR. COLLI:lS: I was trying to help the people in Eastport. MR.

BARBOUR: You like to tear down but you never build up. All the Opposition are good for are tearin~ down. Tearinp, down! ~earing down! Why,in the hell,why they do not try to build up once in a while? HR. IIICk1t.\:~: nr. Chairman. now that we got Eastport out of the way, I wonder lf I might direct •• .. ~ .,., . Eastport is very much in the limelight • Eastport is going 4162

May 20, 1971 Tape no. 703 Page 7 Mr. Barbour. to go Liberal in the next election. MR. CHAIRMA.~: Order please: MR. HICKI-L\N: I wonder if I may direct the hon, minister's attention to Lamaline and to indicate to the hon. minister that there we have a Development Association which was formed some time ago and that association is having great difficulty in ascertaining the policy of Community and Social Development as it relates to that area, Now,not too long ago, the chairman of that association made public the minutes of the meetings and the statements that had been made by representatives of the Government.

May I draw the hon. · minister's attention to the fact that last year at one of the meetings where he was represented by Mr. Louis Landry who, in my opinion, is a verv competent planner, Mr. Landry was talking to the Development Association with respect to the implementation of a sheep-raising programme in that area which has some historic significance. His statement was this,in answer to a questinn that was put to him 1 and I quote verbatim: " If the people accept, how soon can they get started?" Mr. Landry's answer: "Early next spring. This is not for 1980 but for 1971.

In fact if the people agree, I am going to work on it immediately. If you do your part, there will be no problems 1 as far as the Government are concemed,to start immediately." Then he went on to talk about the jobs that will flow from this type of operation. He said; "Those who will not be engaged directly in sheep raising will be employed here. For each sheep raiser there will be four to five plant workers.

The ratio in fish plants is two to one. (Well actually it is three) If 300 in a twenty miles radius are involved in sheep raising,that would mean' 600 to 1,000 people in the process." Then he talks of the success they have had in this field in Iceland and that initially he felt that they would have to bring in a top knotch-man from Iceland.

Then not too long after, still at the same meeting, under the heading Phase(I\Preparation of Submission of Briefs, it say!l: "Based on the idea of the area as a series of commuter sate lite communities ,which could st·rvive if the threat of resettlement were removed ;me! the probler.-s of total inadequate and at times impassable roads 4163

May 20, 1971 Tape no. 703 Mr. Hickman were rectified, a plan of action following the inception of the early counnittees would be implemented,'! Again it repeats time and time again throu~hout these minutes: (1) "That the people are not anxious to resettle or to leave. (2)They want to be c0111111uter satelites of the Page 8 other areas on the Peninsula.

(3) They want co11111unications improved so that they can maintain . the municipal services that should be maintained in that area. At the same time, they would like to be able to avail of the job opportunities and the other social amenities that are available in the larger towns." They have filed or tabled in this House - I have on "their behalf - they have had delegations and petitions with respect to the road leading to this development area. But,to date, they have not been able to receive any counnitment from Government that this work will be done.

I think that the Development Association policy or formula makes a great deal of sense. 'fhey say that we have certain municipal services now, "We have a community life that has been built up over several generations. Why should Government saddle itself or the municipality of Fortune,say,saddle itself directly with providing municipal services for an extra.800 people, when we want to stay where we are,provided certain amenities and certain municipal services arc r,iven · to us now: This seems to be the crux of the matter. Then they had a visit from another official. Bear in mind that Hr.

Landry's position was that there was a future for this area. I am talking about the area from Point au Gaule to Point May inclusive. They have become very excited. They have put in a great deal of time, They have done all the preliminary work that can be e:xrected of a development association.or at least all that has been asked of them in order to make this work. Then along comes Mr. Sametz: lie obviously held a very timd view of the area and its residents and did nothing to encourage it. Now, Mr.

Chaiman, maybe this approach to the Rural Develoment Association is symptomatic. }laybe this applies through the Province. If it does, then in mv opinion these development a5socia~ions are not ~oin~ to ~erve the func ·tlon that thcv h.1ve been created to serve that, if we ar,., :;;otni~ to have .. . -;ocirtti r,:· ~164

May 20, 1971 MR. urcKMAN. Tape no. 703 Page that are to become involved in the development of their area:

(1) They are entitled to have a fairly definitive policy from the Department 9 of Community and Social Eevelopment,

(2) They have to be satisfied that the philosophy emanating from the hon. minister and his department .. is one where the planning emanateP .. to quote Mr. Landry, from the " bottom up and not from the top down. This policy has not gotten through to these people. In fact the only policy decision that has been made to date was made without ~heir knowledgeable. It came as a surprise. They still cannot see how it is tied in with the overall policy that has been outlined by the hon, minister's department.

That was a simple short letter from the Minister of Mines, Agriculture and Resources,saying that they were going to put a community pasture in:lhe Lamaline area. Now the adverse affect and the deterimental affect •• MR. ROWE (W.N.): When was that letter •• ? HR. HICKMAN: That letter was March 11 1971. MR. ROWE (V.N,) Were you at the ~eting? MR. llICK:iAN: No, there has been on~ meeting since then. Mr. Hann has reported to me the results of the meeting. Still they are groping for some concrete proposal.

They came ,r,1ay from the meeting - do not let me mislead the House or the hon. minister but the enthusiasm is still there but the delays are frustrating. MR. ROWE (W.N.): Right. J:tR. HICKMAN: The lack - I realize that some of this is tied in with the ARDA Agreenent and until the ARDA Agreement is signed - I would remind the hon. minister that the ARDA Agreement we thought. when we had the weeting in September ( It was attended by the Province's representative in the Cabinet of the Govemment of Canada) that that was going to be signed last Fall. MR.

ROWF. (r.WN.): That is right. :;ow we !Jtill have not had the agreement signed. It is obvit,n~ that ~165

May 20 1 1971 Tape no. 703 Page Mr. Rickman the statement made in September or October,that this was for early next spring and not for 1981, is not correct. Now I do not say this in a critical sense. I am not at all chastizing Mr. Landry. I have no doubt at all that when he made the statement that he was under the clear impression that ARDA would be ready and the ARDA Agreement would 10 be signed. It has aat been signed.

What my concern is that,if this procrastination continues, if the message •hould get through to these people th11t it is really·not planning from the bottom and that they are not being taken into the confidence of the planners in the Department of Community and Social Development from the very beginning and kept in their confidence, that they are going to lose a great deal of interest. Now the money is going to be obviously involved in this. But it is an attempt bp the people of Newfoundland to follow in he f~otsteps of their fellow Newfoundlanders in Fogo Isiand.

Their desires to pull themselves up by their own boot straps. What they really want:

(1) Professional advice from the planne~a.

(2) They want to be kept involved and not to be faced with different, apparently different policy decisions from each official visit. I think it is quite wrong and I think it will have disastrous results,insofar as this particular development council is concerned or association, if that pattern continues. Maybe when we get the ARDA Agreement, maybe it will change, Lut right now there is the situation as it stands, }tr. Ch11irman.

The other is,and th0 thing they place great emphasis on and which is an integral part of any development of the greater Lamaline area,is the improvement of the communications through and to that area from the industrial t01-ms in the other parts of the district. That simply means one thing, 'the up(!rading and p_aving of the hiphway. At tho conference last year,in reply to a question from the Minister of Transport, the conference was told th11t the cost was $170,000 per mi.le. It is not that. It is not a lenr.thy piece of road. You knc,w it is about twenty or thirty miles.

It could be even forty, if you follow the present route. But everybody agreed, •mfortnl"' ,,. tely 41G6

Hay 20, 1971 MR. HICKMAN, Tape no. 703 this area has been excluded from the DREE SpPcial Area Plan. It is Page 11 very difficult to sell to the people this idea, when they see their friends, neighbours and relatives who live just a few miles away, . at least having been recognized as being entitled to and qualifying for the type of assistance that they feel_ In the other end of thP Peninsula, in the District of Fortune Bay, you have a similar situation in the town of Garnish. MR. ROWE (W.N): It is the same thing with Arnold's Cove and Southern Harbour, MR.

HICKMAN: Maybe it is the same thing with Arnold's Cove and Southern Harbour. It would appear or at least we have been left with the impression, in this assocation,that we have to look to the Province for whatever the cost will be in building up and providing and preserving and implementing the transportation network that is required, What I would like to hear from the hon. minister:

(1) A report of his plans for the greater Lamaline area, when work will start on the sheep raising project that his planners have found to be feasable ·.

(2) Does he accept the principle that priority No. 1 for that area is the upgrading an~ paving of the highway leading to St. Lawrence and Fortuner

(3) Will the funds be provided by the Province or is there any hope of getting any money out of the ARDA Agreement to provide this communication network? MR. ROWE (W,B-.) Mr. Chairman, I realize that the hon. member for Burin is-wishfully thinking but I would ren1ind him that I am not the Premier of the Province, that the Community and Social Development Department nor l,-nor any official in it, has complete power over everything that Government does. We are not involved in the ARDA Agreement 4167

May 20 1 1971 (Afternoon) Tape No. 704 NC - 1 MR. ROWE (W.N.): rural development agreement in, how would you describe it, sort of hardware or in construction such as roads or this sort of thing. This would come under the Department of Highways, far more than it would under the Department of Community and Social Development.

Ev~n under the DREE agreements or special area agreements for highways, it is only incidental really that the Department of Community and Social Development is into it at all.merely as a co-ordinator, a sort of a focal or a Department upon which other Departments can focus with their plans so that we can funnel them to Ottawa. There is no sort of inherent responsibility for that type of a programme. MR. IIICKUAN: You are really the liaison between the line Departments. MR.

ROWE: Liaison between the line Departments here,as DREE is the liaison really between the line Departments in Ottawa, with one great difference,of course, that is that DREE provides and we receive, which we consider to be a fairly substantial difference and very helpful to the Province. On the whole rural development thing, Mr. Chairman, I would say that the Department of Community and Social Development has been going through a period of flux in the last two or three years. Several agreements expired in 1970. There were three or four months,after the expiry date,of furious activities.

We tried to get certain improvements, which we deemed necessary from the Provincial viewpoint,into the new resettlement agreement and we very largely succeeded. We did not get every­ thing we wanted but we made some very good compromises,! think, between ourselves and the Government in Ottawa. At the same time the ARDA agreement expired in 1970. Orginally, as I said, the Federal Government did not even want to proceed with ARDA for the rural areas of Canada. They may have had some other thin~s in mind, they did not 'll!lnt ~o proceed with ARDA. We convinced them otherwise.

They . \. . . ~ then wanted to throw out an agrcc~er.t much the same as the old ARDA agreement, ~~- : _wh~ch was n;t ,~~~igned for Newfoundland circumstances, purely and simply it was not desi~ed for Newfoundland circumstances. We used to have to bend regulations, if not break them 0 I do not think that we broke any. We had ~168

May 20, 1971 (Afternoon) Tape No. 704 NC - 2 MR. ROWE: to bend the legislation. We had to bend legislation. We had to do everything under the sun. We used to have to disguise purposes when we a~plied, everything,Mr. Chairman, in order to get money from the old ARDA agreemeM' for· Newfoundland. I do not think the word "fish" or"fish plant" is mentioned in the ARDA A~t. The substance of the agreement,Mr. Chairman, has nothing to do really with Newfoundl~nd's rural problems.

Then after the expiry of the old agreement,Ottawa, really what they wanted to do was throw us another general agreement which they would sign with Saskatchewan or with rural Ontario or southern Ontario or rur~l Ontario, the agricultural areas of Ontario. There were even references in the eighteenth draft agreement, which we looked at two or three months ago, my colleagues and I. there were references to wild rice developmentain a draft agreement which is r,oing to apply to Newfoundland.

We have been in a state, as I say,of flux and some terrible arguments have gone on, I do not mind saying, bet~•een myself and Ottawa, trying to adapt that agreement to Newfoundland' .3 peculiar and different circumstances,and we have been very largely successful. We have gotten the agreement. I would not say the agreement now is completely oriented around fishery development,by any means, but there is now a recognition of the great role that fishery(by Otta,:

a) the great role that inshore fishery can have, for example, in some of the smaller communities around, either permanently or transitionally. If it is going to fade out, at least transitionally we can get some benefits from it. Other diversifications of canning for herring and lump roe and crab industry, queen crab and diversification of other kinds,on a small scale,in various parts of Newfoundland. There is no conflict.as the hon. member for Gander suggested, between the Resettlement Programme and the Rural Development Programme.

Both Progralll1!'es arc essentially voluntarJ in nature. !-"hat I mean by that is that the rural dt.!velopmerit progr,1rn,·.e, as it is now emerging, has been recognized by ourselves in Community and Social Development and by 4169

May 20, 1971 (Afternoon} Tape No.704 NC - 3 MR. ROWE: the planners we have hired on and by Ottawa officials and planners, has been recognized as a Progranne which should be tailor made. In each particular instance, if you tailor made to suit the needs of the area or the community involved. There should not be self-help programmes, this is just a term they use on it, but that does not go far enough. Yes you cart have self-help progra11D11es where you take something and run it down people's throats and say now help yourself with that.

What we want to do is have these plans and ideas emerge from -.the bottom, not taken off a shelf by some long-haired planner and imposed on an area. They should emerge from the bottom and sort of, you might almost say a socratic method or something where the ideas emerge, help is given from the so-called experts in the various line Departments. The people are involved in the process right from the beginning.

The maximum in labour, the maximun in actual money investment, in time, free time, maybe even in share investment, purchase of shares and V3rlous things that might be set up by the local people 1 in order to make sur~ that they play a fundamental rol~ in this rural development. Now that is all very grand in theory. The problem has been over the year, last yeur, as the hon. member for Burin has mentioned, the problem has been, actually getting the where-with-all or as the member for St. John's West would say; "the whereWITHall" to put the self-help programmes into effect. We have been very frustrated.

The problem was actually getting the thing copper-fastened and the money actually available, and we are going to see that happen now this year. A year has passed. It has not been a wasted year by any means, because we have been evaluating the old agreement. We have been setting up or helping to set up these rural development associations. The danger the hon. member mentions is a real one, that is that too much time will expire before there is action.

It 1 all very well for people to get involved but after a while they ~•~t sick and tired of merely, for debate or colloquium or some thin~ like that. they want action. It is very underst~,.-.!,1ble. We hope to provide ~170

Hay 20, 1971 (Afternoon) Tape No. 704 NC - 4 MR. ROWE: action during this summer. I think that La'llaline will be very pleasantly surprised as the summer progresses. One further difficulty I will mention and then I will sit down on this point~ the Department is a co-ordinating Department. The rural aspect of it, again is a co-ordinating aspect.

There is actually money to be spent out of this Vote but the co-operating of all of the Departments of Government, Mines, Agriculture and Resources, Highways, Economic Development, other Departments of Government,is needed and sometimes in the past, there may have been a lack of co-ordination, not to say co-operation but a lack of co-ordination.

Perhaps the incident that the hon. memeber cited may be a hang­ over from those days _but we hope to remedy that in the future 1 to have complete co-ordination between all Departments and to make this thing a goi~g concern, utilizing the monetary resources that we can give and the ideas and the work and efforts of the local people.who will consider pl~ns and the development to be their own1with help from the Government. But it is their programme, their plans, their development. MR._E~ Mr.

Chairman, I would like to have a few words to say on this particular rural development Vote, particularly as it affects the formations of these councils, these development councils. I have come up against some that are around the Province and it seems to me that the basis, the idea is excellent and certainly deserves every success but it will be rather confusing, in fact,very confusing to a lot of the people in the smaller areas, particularly the more remote areas, to understand what this is all about. I do not envy the officials who have to go out there and try to explain to them.

They will have a very difficult time, particularly places that are in the throes of trying their first effort towards community government, in the form of stoical community council or town council or something of that sort. You have one thing coming on top of another and meeting~ being held bv various officials from different Departments of Government will end up in almost co~plete confusion,on the part of the people who~ -~ havin~ all this slnpped at them for the first . time. 4171

May 20, 1971 (Afternoon) Tape No. 704 NC - 5 MR. EARLE: Another unfortunate aspect of it is that .. it is very unfortunate indeed that this particular programme has had to start getting up steam in an election year, because,whether it has any political implication or not, the people in many places see various individuals going around talking up this sort of thing that they identify as having political ambitions. There are a number of these people doing work who were reported to be potential-candidates for one Party or another. MR. ROWE_:_ Do you know any? HR. EA!_LE: Yes I know a couple. MR.

ROWE: I know a couple of Tories who were taken on as rural..development workers. MR. EARLE: I know. I am saying that quite openly on both sides, not one Party nor another. I mention this, it is unfortunate that the euspicion among many people, they look at it in a rather jaundice way and say that this particular fellow; he is only going into this area to make himself better known and to gain plaudits for himself for the forthcoming election. It is very unfortunate that the Minister has hit a period like this because,basically, as I said, the idea is excellent.

Now I think the other mistake and one which the Minister should try to get his officials· who are doing this work. to clarify. He has probably done so, but it needs to be repeated and repeated that this is not the horn of plenty.as people are rather apt to think it is. When this sort of thing starts to be talked about in an- area, the immediate reaction of the people is; "well all.we have to ask for a road here or a wharf there," They even mix up Federal projects with Provincial.

They think that this is just going to be one grand and glorious hand out and it is not forming the idea of self-help, we are forming the idea that this is something where we form a group to be a pressure group.This is a mistake,right from the start, because if there is going to be any success in these areas,it must medn 4172

May 20, 1971 (Afternoon) Tape No. 704 NC - 6 MR. EARLE: that the people themselves will have to do the bulk of the work. But not knowing what it is all about, feeling that it is election year and feeling that it is just a basket into which they can put their hands and draw out everything, is getting off to a very, very poor start indeed in many areas and,as 1 said the Minister,is into a can of worms which is going to be very difficult to untangle. 1 would hate to see a programme as worthy as this one really fall down because of partisan politics or any use of politics in a programme of this nature.

Now I do not think that Civil Servants as such,and those that are in any way affected by the Government,should openly participate in these things,unless they are direct employees of the Minister's Department. You find Fishery Officers and Welfare Officers and other people going around and sort of talking up this sort of thing and.quite frankly# to put it candidly, it looks to a lot of people like one big liberal plot. Thf.s is how they interpret it. This is the idea that is going across.

Now the Minister may smile and he may think that this will be helpful but it may have the completely opposite effect because,if it is interpreted as a political gesture in any way, the people will draw away from it in manv places and not give it the whole hearted support that it needs. I am quite sincere in saying this because I have seen the reaction in several places already and it is indeed unfortunate because quite often people who are close to it and want the thing to succeed could hot care less as far as politics ·are concerned.

But then on the other hand, there are, as I said earlier, some people who have got political asperation getting very deeply involved in this,and I think one thing is going to crucify another. So I am hopeful that, I am very doubtful actually, but 1 am hopeful the Minister can steer a straight course on this one. Re certainly has a difficult course to follow and if it just develops into a glorious hand­ out durin~ the next few months, I think it will be self-defeating. 4173

Hay 20, 1971 (Afternoon) Tape No. 704 NC - 7 HR. HICKMAN: Mr. Chairman, the hon. Minister indicated, and he can correct me if I am wrong in my interpretati~ that the Resettlement Programme ~nd the Rural Development Programme are two separate and distinct facets of the operation of his Department. I realize that they operate under separate agreements, hut I cannot agree that they are, or could conceivably be separate and distinct ••• MR. ROWE: No. What I said was that they were not in conflict. MR. BICKMAN: Not in conflict? HR. ROWE: That is what I said. MR. HICKMAN: No.

Well then that is more, you know, I suggest that that is an accurate statement.~ot only are they not in conflict but I think it has to go a step further to say that they must work hand in hand. I would like to go back again, if I may, with the consent of the Committee, to the development that I have been actively involved in insofar as Lamaline is concerned; to indicate how much resettlement is tied in with rural development. Because before you can get the enthusiastic support of the people, oi::e thing has to be made clear to them, that resettlement is out as far as they are concerned.

May I quote again from the minutes of the meeting that were made public in Mr. Landry's statement when he said; "I have been so impressed by the anguish of you people,over the question of resettlement.that I have decided to come back to this area when I have something to present to you." The key words; "the anguish of you people over the question of resettlement." Now there is nowhere that anyone in this Province can point the finger and say· to any Government official or any member of Government; "you went to Lamaline and you said you have got to resettle." That just has never been done.

But it is equally clear tha.t the threat and anguish of resettlement has been hanging over the heads of the people of the gr~ater Lama.line area for the past several years, because they see their public services dwindling year after year after year and ., 1'"' .• 'x ' ~

May 20, 1971 (Afternoon) Tape No. 704 NC - 8 MR. HICKMAN: no efforts being made to try and reactivate the~ or the economy of their area. I believe that step number one has to be a clear definitive policy,from the policy statement by the Covernment of the Province,that your area is not a sending community, that we do not want to resettle you. Alternatively we believe that there is no need for you to resettle and that we can make this a very viable area. At the same meeting, Mr. Landry •••• MR. ROWE: has made? Would the hon. member yield for one moment on one point he MR. HICKMAN: Yes. MR.

ROWE: I would like to point out to you, Mr. Chairman, that whether a place becomes a sending co111111unity or not, it is not a matter for Government policy or Government announcement.

I mentioned earlier that the thing was voluntary and the only way it could become a sending co"lllllunity is for a vast proportion of the people there to actually petition the Government for resettle~ent assistance and even then the Government or the Resettlement Division, together with the Government in Ottawa, their part of it could then even say; "No", so it is not a matter of us coming out and saying that such and such a community will never be permitted to resettle or allow themselves to be res~ttled •. _ The point I am trying to make is that the decision is up to them and certainly we would not want to encourage it one way or the other.

MR. HICKMAN: If the decision is up to them, I am sure the hon. Minister will have to agree that there are many communities in this Province now who feel that their days are numbered and they look for something more than a simple statement that you do not have to move if you do not want to, that this is up to you. That is fundamental. You cannot go into any community and say; "Get out," if a person wants to stay there but,if you withdraw,if you allow the e5sential services of that are:i to deteriorate,then, Mr. Chairman, ,;175

'Hay 20, 1971 (Afternoon) Tape No. 704 NC - 9 MR. HICKMAN: obviously resettlement will flow. Now on this development, and there are some interesting statistics, on the proposed development of sheep farming in the area of Lamaline, apparently according to the planners there are two areas in the Province that are suited for this, one is somewhere on the Avalon and the other is in the area of Lamaline. Only two regions in Newfoundland where a crash programme of live stock raising could be supported, the Burin Peninsula from Maeystown down to Lamaline I presume and a certain

section of the Avalon. Now Mr. Chairman, I do not know if all this talk of re­ activating certain branches of farming and certain live stock raising is going to be Markland all over again,and that it is not realistic. Just take a look at what they do in Iceland. Iceland is about the same size as Newfoundland. A ccordiug to the planner's report, the climate, terrain, soil, grass are similar. In Iceland there is a population of one million. Sheep - from which exports of meat and by­ products came• $55 million last year. That $55 million, according to th~ statistics provided by the hon.

Minister's Department,was made by ten thousand people. Now if you accept that as factual . and accept the fact that the planners have come to the conclusion,and men who are familiar with both areas, that there is this possibility of development for stock raising and sheep raising or cattle raising,in that area and one area on the Avalon, then obviously we should be on with it and on with it very rapidly because there is a very job-intensive industry. As I said earlier, the ratio is four to five to one. For every person, for every sheep raiser, four to five people are employed.

This is what the work has been done on and in connection with. But what . I did not get from the Minister, and apparently all of this is conditional on the signing of an ARDA agreement, and whilst I appreciate the difficulties in negot l.1.ting and the dcsirnbility of. making t ': e ARDA agreement oriented 4176

May 20, 1971 (Aftemoon) Tape No. 704 NC - 10 MR, HICKMAN: toward some branches of fishing as well as other areas of development, and I say to him that it is still oriented towards farming as well, what I would like the Committee to be told is,when is it now anticipated that the ARDA agreement will be signed?

Because, it seems to me that things are going to remain at a stand still insofar as real action is concerned,unless and until the ARl"A agreement is signed, Even then I suspect you have to look forward to some delays in processing applications and then availing of the programm-that are . contained in the ARDA agreement and convincing the people in Ottawa that this particular programme truly comes within the standards laid down,under the agreement. The other thing I would like to point out,before I forget it, is to draw to the Minister's attention a problem that sometimes arises in regard to resettlement.

For some reason or other and presumably because a large majority of the people so decide, a community is declared a sending community. Now when a man decides to move his family or he is trying tc make up his mind to move his family to a growth centre, he is making, probably the most serious and what could be fatal decision of his life. He not only has to satisfy himself that it is for the betterment of himself and his family that he move but he also has to make another very agonizing decision and that is to decide where he will move, which growth area.will he choose as a place for his permanent residence.

Some of these men have reported to me that they themselves have moved out and moved their families to a designated growth area, have not acquired homes immediately upon moving because they thought that the logical and sensible thing to do would be to find out - number one,if there is permanent employment in the area and,number two,whether the community is the place where they want to spend the rest of their days. But then they have found that because of their delays (only quite recently I had one drawn to my attention t"rom Marystown) but because ~177

May 20, 1971 (Afternoon) Tape No. 706 NC,_ 11 MR. HICKMAN: of their delays and because of the fact that they still have the house back .<.or they might have sold the house) in, we will say, Seal Cove, that they prejudiced their rights to get the resettlement grants. MR. ROWE: They have a year and a-half to make up their minds. MR. HICKMAN: I know they have a year and a-half. But I am not too sure that a year and a-half is realistic. \ MR, ROWE: A year and a-half from the time they actually move. MR. HICKMAN: That is right. A year and a-half from the time they actually change their domicile.

They move from Recontie West into Fortune. But they may find two problems when they move into Fortune - one is the problem of deciding, whether they want to stay there or whether there is in fact permanent employment and a wage scale that attracts them. Secondly, most likely they will find that they cannot attain permanent residente and they have to rent.

It is very easy and not at all unusual to find that more than a year and a-half will slip by before these people are in the position tG, nu11ber one,have decided I am going to stay here and, number two·, that there is now a house available that I am going to buy or I am in a position to build and I now apply for my grant. They have been prejudiced. I do not know and I have never been told whether there is any disc~etion within the Minister to waive these regulations or to interpret them in favour of the resettled person, if in his opinion, the reason for the delay is justifiable. HR.

ROWE: ·· If the hon. member would give me some further information, privatelY, on this, I would be glad to look into it. Our policy has been that we will lean in favour

May 20 1 1971. Tape 705. Page 1. Afternoon Session. of all cases. As a matter of fact some pretty substantial discretionary measures were taken during the transitional per.iod between the expiry of the old resettlement agreement and the new resettlement agreement coming into effect. Persons were helped out,although they could not have been under the exact letter of the law.

I am sure that there can be some method found to help these people who are reasonably aggrieved by some, either by some lack of information or something or bad information given to them by officials or by other people who would be only too happy to help them out. I On the other question of the ARDA Agreement,Mr. Chairman,! would be quite hapr,y to call Mr. Miller,down at DREE later this afternoon,to see if he did receive the ARDA Agreement today,and convey the information,as to.when we are likely to sign it, to the hon. members,as soon as I have it. 1-'li'-EARLE: Mr.

Chairman, I would like to ask a question on this particular one. I presume this applies, this means bar~es that were used in the house-movin~. I notice the vote last year ,.~as $190,000 This year it is $50,000.

I understand that there were two barres used last year, I am 1,;onderinr, if the ""'inister would tell ns if there are to be two this ye2.r~ 1f so, where ,-•ill they be oneratinp, and when will they get started~ Has he any idea.at this stage of the r,ame,as to ,.,here will they be putting their main pffortr, The main point I want to ask about is whether or not there were sti 11 two barr:es and if they ,,•ill both be operating 2 ~1R. W .ROWE: Mr.

Chairman, on that,the. increase or the decrcase,this year over last year, is due to the fact that a drUll',-harge was converted last year to a motorized bar~e,,,-.Jiich ,,•e die! anticir,ate, which we did last year. Other new e'1uipment was purchased, I miJ!ht say in passing,that all this equipment, ho~se-mov:lnr- equipment, barres and all kinds of eouipment is sevent,•-five per cent recoverable from the r.overnment of Canada,under the new resettlement agreement.

This year's estimates is for, really for repairs anrl maintenance and marine insurance for J-,arr,es and ot!-,P.r equipment ,which we presently have, !'lo there w:1 ll 1:-,e no prea t cani tal outlay. The nresent eouin~ent. house- fl"OVin!! en11il'T"ent, c:rinc;ists c-f. besid,:,s minor items, t"l••O Stf>Pl motc>rizer' barres and ~:n wol'cien drum h11r1•ec;1 \•·hich c11n he rulle<l .1lonr bv :i ro;it nf som., size. 4'.179

May 20, 1971. Taf'e 705. Page 2. Afternoon Session. We also have several smaller barr,es around the Island,particularly on the north east Coast,helping to move houses, but they are not in the same cl~ss at all as the two steel,motorized barges or the two large,wooden d!um barges, The use to "'hich they will he put depends, ;;Jn,ost entirely, on where people "'ill be deciding themselves to resettle,-from and to• It is a very difficult programme to administer in this respect,Mr. Chairman,hecause once people - as the hon. member said ,often people agonize over the decision to'move or not in a ccmmunity.

Suddenly,overnight,their minds change~from reluctan~e to move to a burning enthusiasm to move. I have found that happen on several occasions. We try to cool that kind of a feeling as much as we can and to make sure that the rational thinr, is done 1but sometimes the demand coming 1n for people to move, to avail of their legal right to resettlement qssist­ ance1becomes quite overpowering. We expect to continue on,down on the south coast,generally,of Newfoundla~d, the resettlement operation which we started last year.

I do not have fi~ures rip,ht now,as to exactly where they are goin~ to start but I do have other figures which may be very interesting to the committee. Last year• I have some p;eneral statistics which rnay be of interest to members ~r. Chairman. For example, Federal Government share of the cost in a resettlement pror.ramme. Travel and removal expenses, 100 per cent, paid by the Federal Government. Basic Rei:;ettlement r.rants to DREE,srecial areas Recention Centres,ninetv per cent paid by Canada.

Basic Resettlement Grants to areas of the Province that are not in the special DREF. areas, seventy­ five per cent recoverable from the Government of Canada, The same fip,ures apply to Lot Suprlementaries, exceot in the case of a lot ~upplementary in other than a srecial area, fifty per cent recoverable. The numbers of house­ holds moved last year were 422, number of ,members, ntJ1T1ber of people involved in those households is 1,912, nearly 2,000 people.

The number of mortra~e~ which we call them, they are not exactly mort~~ges they are loans which are written off over a period of five years, I believe: There were 226 of these mort r,ai:;es entered into for lot suppl«:mentaries l;ist year. 1-~at hapi:,ens is ~100 •

May 20, 1971, Tape 705. Page 3. Afternoon Session. this; the money for the lot supplementary,either $iooo or 13,000,depending on whether it is a land assembly project under CMHC or just a minor sub­ division type of project, what happens is the people enter into a mortgage, the term is correct, I suppose, it is a mortgage but every year that they are there one-fifth of it is written off,so that after a five year period no money is owed on the mortgap,e. MR.HICK~AN: That is for the land - MR. ROWE: Yes, that is for the land, That is right.

These figures may be of some interest to mem~ers,Mr, Chairman, MR.HICKMAN: Do you have a breakdown of the sending communities and the ~rowth centres to which the peoole have moved? tfR .RClWE: These fip.ures are from memory,now again. I can get them for the hon. 111ember and for the Committee in Supply, but special areas ?,:in,,rally were rcrmissible for moving into, with some exceptions, probably some smaller community which m:frht have been exactly between two laryer communities, therefore, of necessity,,.•as included in this special area.

Rut generally sreakinr,,sy,ecial areas are di>Si!?na•ed as reception centres. f-lR.HICKMAN: What I :,1eant - can you tell us ho,._, many families moved say from Rencontre West to Harbour Breton, how many from Rencontre West to Grand Rank, how many from Rencontre West to Fortune'? '-IR.ROWE: I will ,et that information,~r. Chairman, and supply it to the hon. member. I do not have it here, I believe there are,outside of the special area I believe there are some fifteen or twenty other communities which have been recognized as recepti~n centres. The number of sending communities I do not have a figure on now.

I will supoly it to the hon. memher. It depends 1 as I say, whether a place becomes a so-called sending community, depends upon whether a substantial majority of the people in the place petition the Government to resettle into another area. I will r.et those fisures and supr,ly them to ti},~ hon. member, to~ether with a t-rea \ down as to how many move from one place to another. ~R.PTrK''A~:I appreciate that \IP.TV r.:11ch because wh'1' I asked that,' ·'r. rh;iirman. (181

Mny 20, 1971. Tape 705. Page 4. Afternoon Session. It would be a r.reat help to members. You p:et a letter from a person in, Rny,notwood, askin,. whethE'r he is entitled to a resettlement p:rant. If you have in front of you a list of sendin~ communities, then you could probably anRwer his letter and give him the informationawithout having to bother anyone in the department at all. The other question I would like the ~inister to elaborate on and clarify is,apa~t altop:ether from the sending communities, where you have other smaller communities, say, Boxey is a very rood example, I do not think it is ..

AN.HON.MEMBER: ¥R.HICKMAN: Why are . you ..Ficking on Boxey? I do not know, I like the name. It is a nice place too, but I do not believe Boxey is a sendi,ng community. ~ut,on the other hand 1 it is not at all unlikely a lot of the people in Boxey are deep-sea fishermen, that some of them would like to move to one of the desip:nated ~rowth areas. Now are they entitled to resettlement gr:nnt\ or is there a difference between the grant which they would be entitled or are entitled and that, say, for some one moving from P sending community/ Is there a differencey Do we have two cater,ories?

MR.ROWE: Is this what the hon. gentleman is asking, whether you can move, say on an inrlivirlual basis,without a community being. a so-called sending community,to a p.rowth are~? Mr. Chairman,under the old agreement there were two c.:1te!1;ories. One was •·•here people could move on an individual basis to certain types of reception centres. Another one where,if eighty per cent of the people of a certain community petition to resettlei they could go to practically nny,,:here in the Province.

"l:f he understands the distinctiont tlncler the new agreement.in order for anybody to avail of the resettlement assistance,the c~mmunity has to have evinced,by a substantial proportion of people petitioning the Government, sending in applications to the Government, a desire to resettle. I might say,quite candidly, we arp:ued strenuously against this bein~ put into the resettlement ap.reement. I have always heen a firm believer that nerhaps people should be allowed to move on an in<lividual basis. Federal ~overn~ent's position was that,no, let us try t~ ~102

~ay 20, 1971. Tape 705. Page 5. Afternoon Session. make sure that at least a substantial proportion want to move,from the sendinr, comrnunity,hefore we allow people to move even on an individual basis. But, once that happens, once a sending community has been,(I hate the word desir,natedl once people have expressed the desire to move out of a community and it is approved, we consider it to be a wise decision, so they have two hurdles to overcome really; their own inhibitions and per~aps the inhibitions of the officials concerned and the two ministers.

Once they have decided on that,then the type of assistance available to them,on an individual basis,is much better than it was under the old agreement. But there is still this stumbling block of a su~stantial proportion having to decide to move or petition to move. Haybe that is wrong, you know, I have misgivinFS about it, but unfortunately,we do have to have an agreement between Canada and ourselves, ~ince they are supplying a greater proportion of the money, seventy per cent of the money spent. We have had to live with that. We did it to compromise 1 1 mi~ht say, with Ottawa, on that point. 'MR.EARLE: Hr.

Chairman, what th~ hon. minister has just said, it is very true and it does leave extraordinary complications. I would hope that he would r,et some of it strai~htened out. Just to give a prime example, for instance, an area which I kno,,, 1t•here the people all agreed to move from, Certain individuals moved to different places. Some moved to desi~nated resettlement areas, so~e did not.

Now, most peculiar things happ£n ~Pcause a man who may have moved from one of these places,where the people wanted to move, then went into an authorized resettlement place 1 found hi1TTse1f t••ithout work, perhaps on Social Assistance, hut his brother, who moved to another place, ha•! a permanent job there, could not get any assist11nce for moving because he "'ent to a not•design11ted area. He thinks now that he is a second class citizen. He has a peculiar look at all this.

He said; "I moved the same time as my brother moved, but he went off somewhere else, which is desir.nated area, did not get a job and he is on Social Assistance. I have gone to another i,lace, he cause 111y ~ife 's father har!len r><l tf have a house there, that I coul c! occu!"y with ven· 1 it tle ex!"ense. 1 rln nc, t r, · t .ir.v '' 1""'1 '-... Ou

May 20, 1971. Tape 705. Page 6. Afternoon Session. help. I go in here and I cannot get any assistance at all from the department but the other chap,who is I think not as good as I am1he is r,ettinr; a lot of help." So this sort of thing seems grossly unfair.

Another point I should like to ask the hon. minister about, in connection with resettlement, is what precautions do his department take, the officials of his department take,to see that the jobs are completed and the whole contract, if you like to call it that, of moving people is properly fulfilled~ Perhaps to give another very strong illustration of that: I know of one group that moved.

They were set out in a very desirable little area, but the amount of money which they got did not permit them to put in all the nece!lsary _ eq.uit'ment .and amenities and so on 1 ........ in their homes,. >lso to make l:f.ttle corinectin~ roads, water system and all this sort of stuff, ~o, that they used up all their lifetime savings in trying to get properly stowed away~ !-!any of these were olll people who had no future prospects of earning anything. They were rens :I.one rs, in a lot of cases. They used up '1>.·hatever bit of money they had, still their homes were not completed.

In fact, they have been two or three years tryinp, to d~ the necessary oad jobs,with little they could scrounge to make themselves as comfortable as they were in the places from which they came. Then they hear over the radio, they read that a delegation has been in to see the Premier, a certain place is going to move from there to another place. A few weeks after they hear that that place is going to be provided with electrici_ty; _the1;1 _th:ere_ is roing to be a water and sewerage contracts. They drive throu~h the l"'lace \od th their cousin on some Sunday afternoon, they see everything done, all of this done.

They come back and say;"what in the name of sandhill is ~ofnr. on here? Were we not just as good as the people who moved from one place to another? Yet, all this is done for one lot, the other crowd is left wondering what it is all about.'" It hns created a tremendous amount of dissatisfaction and dis~ust with the Government, I might say. In fact I do not blame the peopl.e,because they are treated differently. If a prcr.ra~me like this is properly organized and rrorerly handled. all pe~rle must of necessity be tre~te~ alike. But th is h.,s 41.84

May 20. 1971. Tape 705. Page 7. Afternoon Session. ROt off on some very peculiar an~les indeed. I hope the Minister,in his discussions with Ottawa,can ~et some of these kinks out of this particular programme because it must be awfully frustrating to him, it must be awfully difficult to have any coordination or any follow-through on it,when the thing goes so far and then stops.

It is necessary,if you are going to move people from a home where they have been comfortable and established and happy 1 lt is absolutely essential and I think should be a prime motive behind this 1 that these people should be re-established in equally as comfoTtabl ·e and happy circumstances as those they left, otherwise,from thereon,they are going to think that this whole thing was one big put-up job in which they are very unhappy indeed. MR.ROWE: Mr.

Chairman, I think the kind the hon. ~entleman refers to is removed as a result of the new agreement, in that there is an insistence that they move to areas where the services are available. I do not think you will see any more people moving, say, from an island into an entirely new place, you know, uninhabitated before or anythinp. like that. MR .HICK~li'N: No more Red Harbours. MR.ROWE: \.:ell, on P.ed Harbour I was goini-. to mention not Red Harbour but generally the situation. This was again a conflictinp. philosophy between Ottawa and ourselves.

Sometimes people want to move from a remote island say up in the North West Coast into a place where they have greater mobility, greater access to hospitals, rreater access,say, to high schools or an elenentary school for their children, but do not want to move from scime small island they lived on,with twenty or thirty families,into Corner Brook, for example, 1:_hey simnly will not move there. The disruption,that people talk about.and the teari.nr. up of roots would be so r-raat, psycho­ lor-ically too. that even in anticipating that,they have no desire to do it.

Ott1J:1o•a, ,..hen we were discussi.ni.> this, lean in favour of that approach that I am talki~g 1bout. you know, movinr from a smaller place into a lar~e j!;rowth.an urhan centre. 011r basic approach was that sometimes we have to •provl,1e •in ce t' t:iin isol;i tet1 cases, the idea of haln-•ay houses even. people 41o5

. . . . May 20 , 19 71 • Tape 705. Page 8. Afternoon Session. moved from a smaller community into a place where there is great mobility. The joh opportunity m½ght not be all that greater, might be the same, but greater mobility, greater services available within a reasonable distance. I Then, if they themselves w:mt to find employment, or cannot fjnd employr1ent elsewhere, maybe make another move or their children could perhaps move on to another place,if they so desire later on. I am afraid Ottawa won out on this. Some people say it would be right? Ottawa took the right position.

Our own officials think that we should not have gone so far as Ottawa had insisted because 1 from their experience 1 it will not work too well. I think we have now affected a reasonable compromise because "'e have designated certain receiving centres which are outside of the special areas and which people ,1 ould want to move into. Because you are not in a special area, by no means, means that the place does not have good opportunity or good servjces available. 'le have fifteen or twenty of these places designated and I am sure we will have more as we go on.

Originally,Ottawa more or less wanted to restrict resettlement centres to the special areas .. we got t 11em to P,ive that much. If the pendulum is swung back probably through a n~int where there is now a reasonable compromise between the two extreme philosophies, I do not think you will see any more Red Rarbou:r;s, I do not think you will see any more Bide Arms. I do not think that is necessarily a good thir.p,. I think that if you talk to the people of Red Rarbour,they are very satisfied ~-dth what they did.

Our officials, the advice I received, and talkin!! to the people there, they are very satisfied, proud of ,,hat they did. Their circumstances are certainly imprcved, in nearly everv respect if not all respects. I do not think, under the new apreement,vou will ever see it happen a~ain. The hon. ::,:entleman will say ·•hurray; but I do not think he is necessarily ri~ht • MR.HICK:'1N~: :--o, I was nc,t r.oing to say "hurray" exactly, hut there is another element 1 I am sure the hon. minister will ar,ree,or another factnr. in resettle- ment: That is the attitude of the merchant.

If the area ,·here resettlel'lent is beinr rllsaussed is a c,ne-mcrch~nt ccrnmunitv, because that ~erchant has a

~ay 20, 1971. Tape 705. Page 9 Afternoon Session. vested interest in that community, he has a capital clientele, They must go to his shop. They must buy his goods. So they decide they want to move into Burin. He can move too but he realizes,when he moves into Burin or when he moves into Harbour Grace or some other place,he is going to have to compete with a do~en others, Regrettably,sometirnes,in my opinion, ·merchants have u!'ed their influence to retard resettlement and to convince the people, have succeeded in convincing the people into doing something that was not in their best interest.

This is most regrettable. The Port Elizabeth-Red Harbour move points up,in my opinion, another great difficulty,in so far as resettlement is concerned and where you find so many mixed emotions. It is, I will not say it is a comedy of errors, but it is a history of unfortunate errors, many of the errors not those of man's making at all. In 1967, after many, many months probably years of consideration,the people in Port Elizabeth,who are first-class inshore fishermen,decided they were r:oing to move into the Town of Burin. That had an awful lot to nffer.

There was a new housing development,with serviced lots, Their homes could be moved in; the barge could land rjght next to the serviced streets. They started making their plans in September. 1 · think it 1.111s eight or twelve families moved, by ~•ay of bari.>e, jnto Black nuck Cove,Burin. I have talked with several C'lf those families since. They have expressed great sati~faction as a result of the~r moving. The bread­ winners have been fully emrloyed,in the fish plant or on the drag~ers in Burin,since they made the move.

They still go back to their seasonal inshore fishing but,when the trap fishery is over they are back to work in the plant or in the draggers,and it is a twelve month operation. Their children attend good schools. Within twc, days from the time their houses were moved c,f f the site in Port F.l izabeth, they ~·ere hooked ur, to ,-~;, ter and sewera2e and electricitv, for the first ti~e. Then came the unfortunate error, s,ome of it due tci ,,,eather conditions.

But, for some reason that nobody has ever been able to understand or explain, right in the n,jcldle of movinii;,(bPar in mind there are ;inother twel'lll! or fifteen families , ·110 had taken the chlrnevs out 0f their hemes to wait fo~ the harre to crn~ t~ ~lck 1 .... .., ~ CH

May 20, 1971. T:tpe 705. Pap.e 10. Afternoon ~ession. them up) for some unknown reason some man,in his wisdom,decided that the barge go do~m in Placentia Bay and pick up a small church, move it to ~~arystown. So the barge went off to - I forgot where it was - right down the bay - was unheard of for weeks, got stormbound ia some isolated cove. Eventually it got back to Marystown,in December, by that time it was too late to go back to Port Elizabeth and move the other families who had made ready to move; the weather was too rough. They had to put the chimneys back in.

This regrettably was an open:fy,g seized on by a couple of community leaders, who said;"na, Ha, we told you so! We told you that you cannot rely on these fellows that you are never going to get into Burin.~ 1hen once again the Red Harbour philosophy was reactivated. You have to bear in ~ind Red Harbour it~self had been resettled a few years before. Everyone had moved out and moved into other areas under resettlement grants. It was just an unfortunate~ if the decision had not been made to. go after that church 1 the people of Port Elizabeth would All be livinr,,o? serviced lots,in Black Duck Cove,today.

MR.ROWF.: We would have liked to have seen it. MR.HICKMAN: You would have liked to have seen it. I know the hon. minister would :have but, you know - HR.EARLE: Mr. Chairman, I would like to draw to your attention that there is nc,t a quorum; ,·e are anxious to help the Minister get his estimates through. We are not prepared just to maintain a quorum for him. his colleap,ues should be interested in his - I think ~.rR0SBIE: :'1r. Chairman, I clo not knc,w what the hon. meinber for Hermitage was talking about. He tried to speak 1he could not get five minutes, Why can he not r,et five minutes?

That is what the House is here for, that is ..,.hy we are c·onc:_erned with the estimates. The hon. member for Hermitar-e has five-m{nute cnrrment to make,let us hear him make it. AN .HOX. ''E'-'Tl[R: Pill you :•ield for h lm now? MR .r.P05!HF: I 1.:ill vield now, yes. ls the hon. r,entlenan ready? I ~o not ~168

May 20, 1971. Tape 705. Page 11. Afternoon Session. to want the floor 't-fr. Chairman, I am listening with avid interest ,! everything that has been said here, on both sides of the House. The only thing I have to say in this matter of resettlement - ·•11"'0 '::s. Ou

~'av :rn, 1971 Tape 706 (afternoon) PK - 1 'fR.. CROSP.IE: p,rants are goinr. to be increased or made more penerous. That is one point. ''y second point is this; what steps is the hon. tr.inistcr takin? to insure that we have no repetition of what happened in in the District of the hon. member for henr,itap,e last fall, when five or i,i: -: for want of a better word, "hippies'' occuried a house and used an orf!an and so on,and we all know what transpired afterwards - }IR. HICK"A:,r: You are talking about a musical instrul!!ent? HR. CP.O~BIE: Yes, a musical instrurr.ent.

The magistrate jailed them and then their sentence was appealed and so oft. HR. R()PJ·: , l: .N. The hanging judge. MR. CRO~nIE: Yes, the hanging judge. No, I cannot say, what I was p,oing to say in the l'ouse. But anyway,the point is there is liable to be a lot more of that this summer. ~-lot-' I do not believe that the fi!!ures I heard yesterday or the night before last ,that there will be 50,000 young Canadians will b·..! visitinP- Newfoundland this summer, but I would not be a bit surprised, Mr.

Chairman, if there aregoinP, to be 10,000 or 15,000 hitch-htki~g across Newfoundland, Of those quite a few are going to go out, th~y are really going to look at Newfoundland and they are going to go out to areas that there has been resettlement and they are going to occupy abandoned houses in these settlements and there is a possibility of quite a lot of trouble or conflict in that situation. I met one girl, Hr. Chairman, this winter,who hitch-hiked to Newfoundland from Toronto last sunmer. I was dumbfounded how far she had travelled around ;fowfoundland and the ?laritimes, without money or just about no money.

I do not mean that she was earning any money. I was dumbfounded. She has been all over this Province; she has been right up through the Northern Peninsula. She has been out passed St. Anthony, to the furtherest reaches of the District of White Bay North,hitch-hiking.; She has been all through Newfoundland, except the Sooth Coast,hitch-hikinp, through this Province. a girl of seventeen or eirhteen. Now there are ro1.n~ to be tr.ousands camping out, sleeping out in the night or perhaps knock on a door, if it is a bad rainy . night, would knock on somebody's door, the local clerryman,and they usually put them put.

She 4190

1-iay 20, 1971 Tape 706 (afternoon) l'K - 2 MR. ~R0SBIE: told me that it is very seldom,that if it is rough weather or anythinp. like that, some person you would meet along the way or you go to one of the churches, you will always find someone to put you up. Now there are izoing to be 10,000 or 15,000 of that kind of persons. She is a fine young girl,by the way. She got a job here and stayed here all winter,now she is hitch-hikinr, back across Canada to British Columbia. Now there are going to·be thousands like that. They are not tough. They are not bumbs, as somebody sup,gested in the City Council yesterday.

They are not bumbs. They are young people who da not have jobs for the summer and they want to see Canada. They want to see Newfoundland and they are going to come here and,on a few dollars,they will do it. Now, I could not do it. Nost of the members of the House could not, because we are too used to comfort. They do not mind eating very little and sleeping out of doors and the rest of it.

So there are going to be thousands ot that type and there are goinp to he say some hundreds who have an idea , they want to go to rural tlewfoundland or they want to ~o to some rural par~ of North American and start life afresh- H11 • }!(IF.L: The commune type. r!R. CR0STIIF.: Yes, the commune type.etc. Well, they are going to be coming here to Newfoundland,because it is travelling along the grape vine that there are ~oing to be areas that have been moved out of, there are houses abandoned. I "ould suspect that there is goinr: to be a lot of that this summer. :'F. C0LLI~lS : ~!R.

CRO~RlT: If they ~re here for a nonth, they will be ahle to vote too. That is rir.ht, if the Premier's forecast is correct, if they are here for a month they will all be ahle to vote. Presumably servicemen are !!Oing to be able to vote after they are here for a r:tonth. l·!e can have this influx of young people can also vote. nut the point is, is the minister takinr. any, as I understand it the abandoned homes an<l so, title bc>cc::-es vested in the Crown. Is the r.:inister pl:tnninr. an" !'t"r'll't",1.:'ll"'e '.t151

Tape 706 (afternoon) PK - 3 MR, CROSRIE: to take care of this possibility,to avoid trouble? l-1hat is the minister r,oin~ to do, if there a lot of people start moving into these abandoned hol'les and settling in ap,ain? They are not going,to be native Newfoundlanders, I know, but there may be quite a few hundred who just want to start life in a different environment,and it could be quite a problem. That is one point. My last point is this, !!r, Chairman, the Resettlement Programme imposes terrific hardships on some people. I had here to see me today, in the corridor 6f the House this afternoon, a chap.

There has been resettlement from his community, Deer Harbour. He was resettled to Hant's Harbour, He is now in the district of the hon. the member for Trinity South, The hon. minister probably knows him or have heard of him. !-low he suffered servere losses, because when all the community moved out he was left there and had to move himself. lie had a sawmill and a small business and the re.st of it, now he has nothing. The only compensation he can get from the minister's department is the ordinary compensation,that every person p.:ets who moves,presumably.

In cases like that, you cannot help feeling that this programme in some respects is being quite harsh. There is nt't at the moment, I know. Could Ottawa be presuaded that in cases like this, a small business man, as the hon. the member for Bell Island would say, not some millionaire or some p.:reat exploiter of the toiling masses _, some trash like that, this is just a small business man who,by dent of hard work, rot himself established with a little SS'-Tlill and a little business, in this small community, and he has lost it all. Ile does not want to !!'O on welfare.

There should be some kincl of formula where a small businessman like that, who has been forced to move because all the community moves, i:rets some kind of compensation • .\H Jlm:. :'.r!'lffR: Inaudible. :-rr.. cr.o~rar:: r.tr-ht, that is true enough. But they do at least ~et sol!le assistance in beinp, rehoused. A T'!an in this situation gets nothing. So, has the minister ever discussed this with the Government of Canada? Is t;152

tray 20, 1971 Tape 706 (afternoon) PK - 4 tfR. CROSnIF: there any possibility that anything can be done about it? MR. RO!ff, W. N. On those three points, ~-~r. Chairman, the original effprt last year for household resettlement ?,rants was $3,200,000. The original estinate. The revised estir,ate, as shown in the printed estimate,vas $] ,200,000. The reduction from the original estimate to the revised estimate was due to the lateness in signin~.The new Resettlement Ap.reement was not sir,ned until some time in July or August , then it was made retroactive to April.

Also there was a process of readjustments for the neP agreement, for exa~ple, the establishment of receivinr, communities outside of the special areas and that sort of thinp.. This meant that not as much money, not as many grants were made as was originally estimated. The reduction in this year's estimates 1 from last year's estimates,although :I. t represents an increase over actual expenditure, is based on what we consider to be a more re~listic appraisal of the likely number of resettlers this year.

There is undoubtedly-we think that a greater number of people will take advantare of the new Resettlement Ap.reenent in its .;econd year of operations than did ,c;o in the first year, l-'hich did not ( <;t really roinr until fairly late in the summer or the early fall. And, of course, the amount spent is nearly completely dependent on the numhers of people uho do happen to apply and are accepted by the resettlell'ent division. It is only an estil!'ate, Mr.

Chairnan, that is all it can be and in tl11.s c!!se it is an even T"ore hazardous or haphazard estimate than ususally is the case with est:lnates, because it is so dependent on the nur:her of people uho do in fact apply for resettlement. A:: }',1:·. ' 'f:'Tffll: It is •Jncontrollable ::r ._ f:Cl'"E, ,-1.1: ._ It f,a; uncontrollable. it is ever. 1'.!ore uncontrollable than the sliort- term assistance vote, t-,hi.ch is virtuc1.lly 1ncontrollahle, but at least you can r.ake ~ore esti~ate based on statistics.

In our case the rro,ra:ir,e is so younr ,,md the statistics can qo uo and down like that .:mvw.1y, Graphs of thr. statistics 1,ould _l!O up and down an,."liay. There verv littlP :·~u can tell. fron rast experi~nc0, as to how nany people are li~~ly to rrs~ctle. The onlv limitation ~ould ~eon the barre moving

"ay 20, 1971 Tape 706 (afternoon) PK - 5 HR.-r..nwr:, W.N. equipment and the total limit which is set by Ottawa. So this is merely our most realistic estimate available. On the hippie question, t!r. Chainnan, there is not much I can say on that. HR. NEARY: You have human rights legislation in every province. MR. ROHE, _1-:.N. That is right, esentially it is a free country.people can p,o where they want. The laws apply to private property,no matter if they are in an abandon conw.iunity or an occupied community. The R.C.M.P. keep an eye on the property which has been,-abandon or left behind.

It is owned, the title does vest in the Government,to a certain extent. It is a funny situation because, although title does vest in the Government, the orir,inal owners have certain rights, For example, it can be taken off and so:ld and all the profit is accrued to the original owner. They can move it thenselves,within a peroid of time. Even after the period of time say, a year or so expires ,from ·the time of their move to the time the Government gets more control over it, even then,if the Government s.llvar,es it and sells it, the profit,after expenses,goes back to the ori<>innl 01-mer.

So it is private pr,,perty and public property; there is sort of an e~ual interest there. A joint ownership situation almost, with all the profits of exchanging the title with someone else going to the oririnal oi-'!ler. ~low what are you roinr, to do about it1 We tell the R.C.H.P. and the police and other people to keep an eye on it and try to enforce the law that way.

We certainly do not want to encourap.e, I personally do not want to encour~r,e any repetition of what happened last year, anyone who roes into an abandoned old house, perhaps a ramshakle old house, which is of no use to any~ody 1 I could not want to encourare anybody to do it, but I would not want to encourar,e any magistrate or any official of the la" to thre,,tP.n to han~ the person for doing it, or put thet'I in jail for I He or ar.ythinr like th;it.

I am not saying that has happened in the past, hit 1 er rta; nly •·oulrl not like to see it happen in the future. 1-.'e will tre:it t!'l' ~n,.,erty e:;actl ,· th<:! sa;"'P. as any other propert:, t'iat exists an~~-~here

~lny 20, 1971 Tape 706 (afternoon) ~. r-rnm, P.N. in the Province ,uith people h:1vinp, complete freedom of movement in these areas,as lonr, as they respect the concepts of private property. I realize that a number of them do not respect that concept, PK - G as a concept, which does not necessarily mean there is anything wrong with it. The businessman problem is a problem which is more or less in the rrovincial Government, but Pe have r,otten nowhere litith the Federal Government on it.

The position we have taken is that, in certain cases there should be an element of compensation involved in the Resettlement PrograT?rme. The !)Osition which Ottawa has taken is that there is no elel'!ent of compensation 1 the p,rants and the loss supplementaries are to be given on the 'tiases of the r,.unr-er of individual persons in a household and to assist th•m to move. It has nothinp, to do with expropriating property or conpenl'lating people for the property Phich they left behind. Now this docs operate unfairly.

There is more than one gentleman in the Rouse this afternoon, another p,entleman,well known to everybody . here,who rmvcd fron an island in Placentia Bay,left behind a considerahle amount of property. He talked to r,,e about it many tines. I hnve commiserated \-dth hiM on it. I have told hiM there is nothing we can do about it, unless the Provincial Government sets up its 01-m scheJT1e of compensation, 1-rhich I am afraid hets out of hand, especially at this late date. Then you have to ~et into the ouestion of a person leaving behind a $20,000 as a~atnst a $l1, 000 house.

Pe do not think the thing can work p-enerally .. We think that there shoul<l be exceptions in sol!'e cases. 0tta,.,a thinks there should be no exceptions. l!e have r.otten nowhere vith ()ttaVi1 on it, althourh 1-:e have T!'ade strenuousrepresentations to Otta1-,a cm it. There is a provision for helpin~ business~en or owners of stores to w.ove their store or r.ove their contents of the store to the resettlement cornmunftv. hut that is not the real ans1.'er either, hecause often the store cannot 1;,e r.oved. The stocks can he put in a hoat and brcur,ht ashore hut another store 1-·oul<l have to he built.

So there is no definitive a.-:s,-·ers ~1f;5

"lay 20, 1971 Tape 706 (afternoon) PK - 7 ~'R.,ROW~, W.N. been arrived at in respect of this question and I have said in the past and 1 ,-!ill say now I that there are inequities in the Resettlement ProRramme,especially with repect of the position the hon. r,entleman from St. John's West has taken . or the fact that he has brought to our attention. l!e tried to solve the problem, So far we have gotten novhere with Ottawa on it~ perhaps in the future we will, if we will continue our efforts.

There is another point I would like to comment.to the hon. minister,with reference to the statement earlier that the Province would prefer to see a chanr,e :i.n Ottawa's policy insofac' -·•s .qualifying for resettlement p.rants are concerned. I believe, there are instances where it is in the financial interest of the Province,even . if it means taking the whole cost to make resettlement grants to people who want to move to desir.nated r,rowth areas, even though it is on an individual bases.

Just as we started our discussions i~is afternoon, I have a letter here from a r-entlernan in Bull's Cove, it is not an incorporated community. Jt may not be for s6me · time. !1l~_Il_2WF., __ H.N. Pool's Cove? !·!R. HT C.K"J\ !'. : Bull's Cove. - - ---- -·-- '. 'R. _T',._O~·'.!·~, W.N. Pool's or Bull's? ~!P... \!IOJ'A!-': null's Cove. Some day it may come within the municipality, hut in the meantime the responsibility for maintaininr, co~.munications and road and stuff, that is from the Department of Hi~hways.

This ~entle~,nn finds,to reach his house.and a couple of others 1 the Department of l'-f.i>h1-mys are f acf.'d ,,!th a fairly heavy e::..."J)endi ture, so heavy the <lernrtment hns not ~een able to find the necessary funds to do this •-7ork nnd to nl lm-, oil trucks and other vehicles and services to ret up there. ~o he su~~-ests that . he ,-.•ould be prepared to move to one of the serviced are,'ls, if Covernment were prP.rared to r.ive him the resettlement grant of ~2,nr,n. I am sure the GovernMent would ~e in pocket by $100,000, if th ese t~:o or thr£'e people were allowed to move.

But rirht now, if we rel v on tl:e. !"('dcr:11/ f' rov i.ncial .-\ r.reer,_ent ,there is no 'lo.'ay that n:a-r,i can 4196

11ay 2(). 1971 Tape 706 (afternoon) PK - 8 MR. l1ICK1'A:: : receive any !'!Oney. The sarne situation arplies in an -area that I know the hon. the 'finister of Finance is very familiar with and that is r.ugdcn's Point. ur,. r.m-rr.. 11. :r. The ones that you are applying to are not actually in Rull's Cove, they are in Port au Bras. MF. t'Ir.I'.1'AY: Fell, they call it Bull's Cove. If you are not in Port au Bras, you are in tull's Cove. But in any event, the one that the hon. the i-!inister of Finance is aware of is a place called Bu~den's Point.

It is about two miles beyond Epworth and there was a·road built there,through the .efforts of the hon. the }linister of Fiaance,at a great expense, because at that time the people were not prepared to move. But since the road has been completedJ the cost to the Department of F.ighways of keeping that road open in the: ' winter, even passible, and most times it is not passible for heavy equipment. ha~ been quite hi~h. !low these three families would like to wove. Now they have another problem, they would like to move into Epworth, Phich is not a receivinp c01'1ll"unity.

But they put it to you on a dollar and cents ha~es, they t••ill say, "it. will cost the Governnent of this Province a total of $6,000 to move us into F.pworth. It is going to cost the Governnent and it has cost the Government far in excess of $6,000 to keer us there, in providinp.: the services." But because there is no provision in the Federal/Provincial A~reement, they do not qualify under resettlement.

What I think t:1e Government should tum its attention to now is t,•hether, Phen it is econocically justifable .and I realize this is r,oinf! to be difficulty to adl!'inister and it could he open to ahuse, but in cases t-~herc it is obviously not only in the best interest of the people to move but also in the hest interest of Government that they move, that where t!1ere is a c]~ar rel'!uest and a clear intention anc where Covern~ent would ohviously he r.,_oney in rocket and the public services are there for the reople,that it seens to ~e, at least it is very re~retable that they are der,riveri of. the ,lhility to move, becauslj! of no s t rictly 4197

Pay 20, 1971 Tape 706 )afternoon) }'R. TIICK''M/: provincial pror,ramme in that respect. MR. WORNEtt: Mr. Chairman, I would like to say one or two words on this, Sir. The hon. the member for Burf.n was talkin~ the other night about Rencontre !·)est and Parson's Harbour, and 1 as I know a little bit about the circumstances reP,ardinp, the evacuations of these two places, a semi­ evacuation of Parson's llarbour, I would like to correct the irnpression which he left. Rencontre t•:est~was l'!'.oved out entirely, two summers ago.

Pk - 9 The first intimation I had that Rencontre West, the people of Rencontre Hest 1 intendcd to vacate ,was the merchant who called me one day. I happened to he in !'arson's Farbour and he called me on the rural telephone, said that he would like to spe11.k to me in private and I went into Rencontre, after havinr, heen there hefo-re,and I saw him privately. He told me of his fears that there I~ould be not enough people left in Rencontre West, over the Pinter,to make his business worth carrying on or viable.

So I said; "well that is a situation that you will have to face yourself and there is nothinr I can do, except to say that, if you do intend to make any move yourself, in fairness to the people, I think you should call them tor,et:,er and state th!'. situation.'' 'l'his I una~rstand was done. The next thing I knew ,,•as that they all nade up their minds to leave in July.

The first week in Au;':ust ,I had a tele~ram from the merchant,sayinp: that they t..•ere closing the post office and asked me. if I could intercede with the Federal f,uthorities to have the post office renain open for another two week!! or so,to carry on the rep.ular mail and co~munication business, because rPssares had to he sent back and forth and the telephone apparently ,,,as in the post office. This was done. ::ou there was also another thinr: ,the bait depot. A larj!e bait depot had been ~aintained thr.ir by the Federal Departnent of Fisheries,and the authorities dcci,?cd to close that bait depot.

This was done because, well, re;'!sor.s best kno•,n to thcrselves, but I feel that they thou~ht they ,,•ould not rct pconle Pho lived in !'enccmtre West to 'l!lanar.e or operate that bait depot and livg t~·cre in isolation. So the bait depot was closed·. I h.:irl rerre«e!1t.,rir.n fro:, P:irscn's l.:i.rhour mid also rerrec;entation fror rrancois

~lay 2fl, 1971 Tape 706 (afternoon) PK - 10 '-fR. HORNELL: Authorities and I was told that this was impossible, hecause it involved a lot of breakinr, up of concrete foundations, casings and other things that were there. You know the machinery had to rest on heavy and sound foundations. It was impracticable to move the macninery So then the next thing wa~ the consideration of hait supplies for Francois and Parson's P.arbour.

Even thour,h PArson's Rarbour had now practically vacated, I feel and I still feel that it is the Government's responsibility to give all communities whatever public service it can,while there are people in that comMunity. And, I think that my hon.friend the Minister of Conrnunity and Social nevelopment will ay.ree with that. I cannot see that any Government or any people which comprise the Government can be so callous. so inhuman as to forget the human factor which is involved, the ~ocial and economic factor, the sociolo~ical fact. I cannot see that, despite all the criticisms that this department gets.

So anyway, we discussed this question of the acquisition of bait and the distribution of bait to these two communities. It was decided to try and get John Penny and Sons l ,imited,of Ramea,to store some extra ~upplies of bait,in season, because they were doin1 business in Francois and they were collecting fish in Francois. So this, I understand, ?-fr. Chaiman, has worked very well. I have not had one compl~int regardinr scarcity of bait. If anyone has made any complaints, it has not been to me.

I have not received them, althouJ?;h I was expecting any day to receive such complaints, because,as everyone knows,fishermen can strike a good run of ,,·eather and a r,ood run of fish and their bait supplies could diminish rapidly. 7he situation now,Sir, is this,that the pec,ple of Parson's Farbour are still requestinr, the Department of Fisheries,that is Federal and Provincial,to look after their bait requireir.ents.

And, Sir, if tliis Covernoent can do anythin~ to relieve the anxiety of the fisherr.ten still left in Parson's ;:arbour, then I will be the first one to ask th is Governnent to do so. !:ow I trust, Sir, I have cleared up sor.-e of the dou~tful <"UC!';ti.ons w'lich ~-·ere prc>~a~·ly lef:t in thf' ~ind~ of the :-:<m. r.1cr." •rs,il"tcr tl·e hnn .

?·':iy 2') , 1()71 Tare 706 (afternoon) PK - 11 ~rR. POPNFLJ.: nember for Burin had read that letter from an evacuee of l' arson's Harbour. ?'.ow just one or two words, Sir, with rep:ard to the planning of the departt:1ent, Co!!'rnunity and ~ocial Developrnen.t. I speak mainly, Sir, about resettleMent.t know that comr-iunities have been placed in turmoil hecause two or three influential people in the various COtlDllunities have decided to move. Tliey 111ay have ·some money in the old sock. They 11'.ay be receiving old ar.e pension or other rension.

May 20, 1971 Tape no. 707 Page l - MRW Hr. Wornell. They may be on welfare. They may not care where they go. They may have sons or daughters or other members of the family in St. John's, Corner Brook, Grand Falls or other of the towns,which would perhaps suit them better to live in. They may have been invited by their sons and daughters to leave their isolated communities. Now, Sir, this is one thing that I would recommend. I have done so. It was only the other day that I was talking to Bert Strickland, a man who is well-known on the South Coast. He is a resident of Stone Valley.

Bert Strickland is a man of some influence in Stone Valley. Last fall I asked Bert about electricity for Stone Valley. I knew that Stone Valley had requested, had petitioned for electricity. So I asked Bert if there was any intention of the people of Stone Valley to vacate and resettle? He was noncomittal and,knowing Bert~I knew that there was a reservation in his mind. You can generally tell. People who are vocal generally do not become mute and silent,except for a reason. So I had an idea that there was something definitely in the back of Bert's mind.

I said, "Bert, if you feel that the people of Stone Valley want to leave, for Heaven's sake\you are the businessman there,do not leave them in the lurch. Have some compassion for them. You are the merchant and you are the man to whom they look for supplies. You take their fish, their herring." Bert Strickland was a very influential man, is a very influential man in Stone Valley yet. Okay, he called a meeting and,as I understand it,they all decided to leave Stone Valley. I did not know a thing about that until about a month ago,when I made a trip to Stone Valley and the other areas.

On the boat, I think it was the.Springdale:' there were two men from Stone Valley. I said~ ''Where have you been boys?" They said; "Harbour Breton, Sir." I had a quizzical look on my face. I didnot want to put the question too pointedly. They knew what I had in mind. They said; "Yes boy, we are going to settle down there." I said~ "Oh, I see you are resettling• .' Yes, we are all going, Sir." I can understand a man's reluctance to make a statement outright to th~ effect that a certain co=~nity is going to be resettled. It is very difficut, Hr. Chairm:m, to get si.:-:ty per cent concurrence in cases like th~t.

If I wanted to, I could tell other ~torics a~out various ~2(i1

May 20, 1971 Mr. Wornell Tape no. 707 Page 2 places in my district which have resettled. In each case, these people would hold out adamantly to the proposition that no 1 they were not going. They were going to stay. They were born there and that they were going to die there. Now, Mr. Chairman, if these people will not have confidence in their member and confide in their member as to what is in their minds, hu., in Heaven's name can the Department of Community and Social Development find out what is in their minds?

I say, Sir, that any community worth its salt should have some sort of a guiding committee,when there is any thought of leaving and going to another place, because then they would not make mistakes,which have been made, I know that there have been heartaches, Even Stone Valley,where I gave Mr. Strickland all the help I could and all the suggestions I could, even Stone Valley has a couple of bad cases, where bad decisions were made, because people wanted to go nearer to their relatives.

Places where they went were not "receiving communities." Now, Sir, with regard to •receiving communities" and 'sending centres," I think that we need more informatior. regarding these. This may be repetition. I did not hear all the debate this afternoon. Perhaps this has been suggested before. If it has, I will certainly give that suggestion my support. I think that there is a dearth of information emanating from this department.

I believe that a lot of the heartaches and disruptions and psychological upheavals.and implications, a lot of these things could have been oviated if more information were available,in readable language, in understandable language. I would certainly ask and request the hon. minister to give this suggestion his due regard. With these few words, Sir, I hope I have cleared up a few of the misconceptions regarding my district.

If there is any other information regarding my district - I have been very close to the resettlement programme there because I know how resettlement can affect the future lives of the people who are resettlinr,. I am, essentially, a compassionate fellow. I believe th;it ..,.e are all involved in mankin<l,as the cliche' goes. I believe that we shciuld try 'lnd c;ee another fellow's woe and try and understanc it and

May 20, 1971 Hr. Womell. Tape no. 707 Page 3 try and help him out and give him suggestions and tell him what is best for him. I arn sure that this Government will take any suggestion,which the hon. members can give,that will alleviate and probably eradicate some of the errors which have resulted from resettlement thus far. Thank you. On motion (07) carried. MR. COi.LINS: Hr. Chairman, before we carry, 2008-01, Community, Amenities, Infrastructure and Incentives, this applies I pres