May 12,

GOVERNMENT SERVICES COMMITTEE

Pursuant to Standing Order 68, Vaughn Granter, MHA for Humber West,

substitutes for John Dinn, MHA for Kilbride.

The Committee met at 9:00 a.m. in the Assembly Chamber.

CHAIR (Forsey): Good morning, everyone. Thank you for coming.

Before we get into the subheads, we will start with some introductions. We

will start on this side of our Committee.

MR. BUTLER: Roland Butler, Member for the District of Port de Grave.

MR. LODER: Terry Loder, MHA, Bay of Islands.

MR. GRANTER: Vaughn Granter, MHA, Humber West.

MR. BUCKINGHAM: Ed Buckingham, MHA, St. John's East.

MR. POLLARD: Kevin Pollard, Baie Verte-Springdale district.

CHAIR: Clayton Forsey, Exploits.

Minister, I guess you can introduce your staff or have them introduce

themselves. Also, you can probably take a couple of minutes if you want to

present your department in some way before we call the subheads, if you want to

do an introduction sort of thing.

MR. HARDING: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

First of all, I guess I will have our staff introduce themselves beginning

with my Deputy Minister.

MR. NORMAN: David Norman, Deputy Minister.

MR. HENDRY: Wayne Hendry, Director of Procurement with the Government

Purchasing Agency.

MR. JONES: Scott Jones, Departmental Comptroller.

MS BRENTON: Barbara Brenton, Director of Strategic Human Resources

Management.

MS DUNPHY: Kim Dunphy, Assistant Deputy Minister, Occupational Health and

Safety.

MR.CONNOLLY: Doug Connolly, Director of Financial Services Regulation.

MS KELLAND: Donna Kelland, Assistant Deputy Minister, Government Services

Branch.

MS HEWITT: Valerie Hewitt, EA to the minister.

MR. DONNAN: Hugh Donnan, Director of Communications.

MR. HARDING: I am Harry Harding, Minister of Government Services and

Minister Responsible for the Government Purchasing Agency.

Mr. Chairman, I guess I would like to begin by saying that, as you probably

know, I sat in that chair where you are for eight years chairing the Resource

Committee and I looked across at this chair from time to time and I kind of

think it was much more comfortable where you are than where I am today, but

anyway, I am certainly pleased to be here and I welcome the Committee.

This department, as most people know, is not one of those departments with

barrels of money where you have MHAs coming to you all the time looking for a

share of it. It is completely different from that. We are more or less a

regulatory department which delivers citizen protection services to the public

in areas of public health and safety, environmental protection, occupational

health and safety, consumer and financial interests, and in the provision and

preservation of vital statistics.

In addition, through the Office of the Queen's Printer, the department

provides printing, micrographic and digital document services for government and

the general public, including copies of provincial legislation, the Newfoundland

and Labrador Gazette, and select documents and books.

The department was created with the aim of consolidating, where possible, the

licensing, permitting, inspection and regulatory functions within government and

providing a single window point of access to the public for those services. The

past few years we have been doing that, as some of you may be aware. We

consolidated services out in Grand Falls-Windsor, in Gander, and we are

currently doing the same thing in Corner Brook. In this year's budget, as we go

through it, we will see that we do have a fairly large sum of money approved for

us this year to consolidate the services here in St. John's.

The authority to carry out the department's mandate is derived from over 175

pieces of legislation and related regulations, standards, and codes of practice.

The operating budget for this year is $46,179,600.

The Department of Government Services employs approximately 513 employees and

it is well balanced gender-wise with 240 males and 273 females. They are

scattered throughout thirty-two offices around the Province.

The department is comprised of three branches: the Government Services

Branch, the Consumer and Commercial Affairs Branch, and the Occupational Health

and Safety Branch. We are also responsible or accountable for nine public

entities in the Province, including the Government Purchasing Agency and the

Credit Union Deposit Guarantee Corporation; both of which report independently

to the minister, each prepare independent business plans and annual reports.

The Government Services Branch provides a variety of services internally to

government and externally to the people of the Province. This is companies

through the branch's six divisions: Government Services Centres, Program and

Support Services, Motor Registration, Engineering and Inspections, Vital

Statistics, and the Office of the Queen's Printer. The Consumer and Commercial

Affairs Branch regulate consumer protection and provincial financial services

throughout the Province. That branch is comprised of four divisions: Financial

Services Regulation, Commercial Registrations, Consumer Affairs, and Pension

Benefit Standards Division.

The Occupational Health and Safety Branch protects the health and safety of

the Province's workforce through the development and enforcement of Occupational

Health and Safety legislation, inspection of workplaces, incidents, and the

investigations of workplace complaints, serious injuries, and fatalities.

Occupational Health and Safety enforcement is a compliance-based program where

severe penalties can and have been filed for failure to meet statutory or

regulatory obligations regardless of whether the non-compliance resulted in an

injury for purposes of insurance considerations by the Workplace Health and

Safety Compensation Commission.

Occupational Health and Safety activities are an essential public service

contributing to the general well- being of society by protecting the rights of

workers to work in a safe and healthy environment. The value of the program is

evident by reduced injury and illness rates in work populations and contributes

to reduced cost to health care, social services, and worker compensation

systems.

The Occupational Health and Safety Branch is comprised of four operational

units: the inspections section, Occupational Health, Compliance and Regulatory

Affairs, and standards and regulatory development.

In our 2011 budget, one of the key expenditures this year and I mentioned

it earlier is we have been allocated $2.3 million to co-locate the Avalon

Regional Government Service Centre headquarters, which is currently at Mews

Place here in St. John's. We are moving that to the Motor Registration Division

in Mount Pearl. The co-location will strengthen the one-stop service approach

for accessing a wide range of direct government services for residents of the

region, and this will be done then under the same roof.

The department is constantly striving to deliver better and more unified

services to customers throughout the Province. Our goal is simple, and that is

to bring to the people of the Province efficient and responsive programs and

services and to oversee the administration of safe and healthy work

environments.

Mr. Chair, that concludes my opening remarks. Now, I look forward to the

questions and comments from the Committee and we will do our best to provide

whatever information we can.

Thank you very much.

CHAIR: Thank you, Minister.

Before we call the subheads, when you are responding to questions, whether it

is staff or whoever is responding really, it would be nice to let us know your

name for the purpose of recording and Hansard. If you can remember to do that it

will be greatly appreciated, if not then we still stay here. You will not get

penalized for it or anything.

I will ask for the subhead for Government Services.

CLERK (Ms Murphy): Subhead 1.1.01.

CHAIR: Subhead 1.1.01.

I guess we will begin with you, Mr. Butler.

MR. BUTLER: Thank you, Sir.

First of all, I want to welcome the minister and all of your staff, and to

say, Sir, you feel just as comfortable in that chair as you did in that one

because there is not going to be a big upheaval here this morning. Usually I go

into the probing questions first, but seeing I am here alone this morning I will

probably ask some of the one-liners, and a question leading into the same

information that is on the one-liners might be in a probing question and there

could be others besides.

The first one, Minister, and it is no great deal amount of money, but 1.1.01,

Minister's Office, under 06 Purchased Services. I know it was budgeted $18,800,

revised to $5,000 and up to $18,800 again. I was wondering, what was the

decrease and what purchases?

MR. HARDING: Yes, the decrease of $13,800 that is a reduction in

expenditures, mainly for advertising. That varies from year to year.

MR. BUTLER: Thank you.

Heading 1.2.02, Strategic Human Resource Management, under 06 Purchased

Services; I know the figures are fairly steady around $320,000, I was just

wondering what particular types of services these were?

MR. HARDING: That is number eight?

MR. BUTLER: Number six, I am sorry.

MR. HARDING: Purchased Services, okay.

MR. BUTLER: Yes.

MR. HARDING: You are talking about the variance from you just want to

know what they cover.

MR. BUTLER: I am just wondering what does that entail.

MR. HARDING: Okay. This one is mainly for money that we spend on training

our staff from time to time.

MR. BUTLER: Okay, I know there are different ones. If that is the case

probably a lot of those are the same. For instance, in 2.1.03 Purchased Services

again, I was going to ask the same question. I guess that is the same thing is

it? That was under Commercial Registrations.

MR. HARDING: That is the $640,700?

MR. BUTLER: Yes. That is probably the same thing is it, as the other

ones?

MR. HARDING: Yes, I will pass that on to Scott Jones.

MR. BUTLER: Okay.

MR. JONES: You are looking at 2.1.03. Commercial Registrations, Purchased

Services, correct? Is that where you are right now, wondering what was there, or

did I jump ahead on you?

MR. BUTLER: 2.1.03, yes.

MR. JONES: Yes. The Purchased Services there is from (inaudible) fees,

where we use debit machines but we have to pay a fee to the vendor for the

usage. That is the bulk of what funding is in there.

MR. BUTLER: Very good.

Another one there, Motor Vehicle Registration, 3.1.01.05 Professional

Services; in 2010-2011 it was $100,000 revised to $22,100 and there is nothing

budgeted this year, is my understanding there. I was just wondering if you could

give me an explanation on that one.

MR. HARDING: Yes. There is a variance there of $77,000. That was for

funding for hiring external consultants. During 2010-2011 the funding was used

to do a study on weigh scales in the Province. That was a one-time thing.

MR. BUTLER: Okay.

MR. HARDING: This year we are not budgeting anything for that.

MR. BUTLER: With regard to Motor Registration's computer system,

Government Services was engaged in talks to replace the Motor Registration

computer system in, I think it was 2009. Last year the minister said it was an

ongoing project and would cost between $14 million and $20 million to replace.

He stated that it should be brought forward in the next budget. I was just

wondering if you could give us an update on the status of that, please.

MR. HARDING: Actually, the estimate has been revised now. It is more like

$25 million to replace that system. Work is still continuing on that and a

number of things mentioned by the Auditor General in his report were sort of

administrative things, information management things. The system is still being

upgraded but there is still a lot of work to be done on that, but it is

continuing through OCIO.

MR. BUTLER: It will be a while yet before it is totally implemented?

MR. HARDING: Yes, it will be. Yes.

MR. BUTLER: This is one I brought up in the last four or five years and

seeing as this is my last year here I am going to bring it up again, mandatory

winter tires. I know from the questions last year, the minister stated he did

not have a closed mind totally on it but he did say that 80 per cent of the

travelling public use winter tires and they were still waiting on a study

through Quebec. I was wondering, since you have taken office, Minister, what

have been your views on this? Has anything been followed up on the study that

the former minister was anticipating?

MR. HARDING: Well, I am of the opinion that winter tires are safer than

regular all-season tires. In fact, I have always changed over mine every fall to

winter tires. Having looked at the results of the survey that was done that you

alluded to, there was over 85 per cent of respondents who said that they do use

winter tires. What sort of surprised me was that in the St. John's area that

percentage was more like 92 per cent of people in and around St. John's use

winter tires.

The survey also indicated that a number of seniors who were surveyed, most of

them said they use their vehicle a lot less during the winter. When they do,

they are more selective as to when they take their vehicles out; like on bad

days they will not move their vehicle. Because of those things, I am still of

the opinion, too, that where that percentage is so high it does not seem to be

fair to regulate any more than what is already there and force those people into

spending money a lot of them might be seniors - that they do not have.

With respect to the information coming from Quebec, I am not sure if we have

received it. Donna, would you know?

MS KELLAND: (Inaudible).

MR. HARDING: No, we still have not received any information from Quebec

as to the results of what happened over there when they regulated the use of

winter tires.

MR. BUTLER: First of all, I want to say it is encouraging to hear you say

that winter tires are far better than all seasons. I think the study you

referenced here in St. John's would say that people in St. John's, 92 per cent

of them, I think that is another excellent straw in the hat for winter tires

because driving around the city we know the inclines and different things are in

here and those people would not be having them if they thought summer tires were

just as good.

MR. HARDING: No.

MR. BUTLER: Because they are definitely not just as good.

MR. HARDING: I just want to add to it a little bit too, I do not know if

you heard it but CBC had an interview with Viva Canada in December of this past

year and their results showed that Newfoundland and Labrador had the lowest

number of accident reports, claims, than any other province in Canada. They sort

of attribute that to where we are more conscious of using winter tires than

other parts of the country. That is a good indication, too.

MR. BUTLER: Maybe with it brought forward in the media all the time we

will get to that 100 per cent one of those days without making it mandatory.

The other thing, I think, Minister, that really sets into people's minds is

the advertisements on the radio or television where you extended the season for

studded tires. People are saying: Look, there must be something to all seasons.

If studded winter tires are going to be extended, what am I doing with all

seasons on? I think that is what is making more people come onside and purchase

winter tires.

MR. HARDING: Yes.

MR. BUTLER: With regard to the seniors you mentioned, that is

unfortunate, because in the city they only go out when there is good driving.

You can leave Mount Pearl and end up down in the East End of St. John's and be

in a blizzard in one place and sunny skies in the other. I hope they do not use

that all of the time as a reason for it.

The other question, ATV regulations, I keep going back to this one. If you go

through the minutes of all the Estimates, every year I ask this one. In 2007,

the department stated that they would bring in new ATV regulations. As a matter

of fact, you probably remember, we used to have what we called the Run for the

Janeway in the Conception Bay North area, where we would have 700 and 800

four-wheelers come in and raise funds. We have raised I think, in five years,

close to $500,000 for the Janeway.

Then, a couple of individuals went out and unfortunately I have to watch

what I am saying here because I do not want to sound too nasty about it caused

accidents on the highway. The police always came into our community, led the

parade on the main road so they could get back into the country; a family

affair, two people on a bike, even though we know the regulations on the seats

on the bikes as well. I am just wondering, the minister stated very clearly that

he is an avid rider himself - the former minister I should say, not you, Sir -

that he was really going to get into this, there were going to be public

consultations on it. The last I heard was the concern was that government could

be liable if they went with the regulations and legislation that they were

planning on. I am just wondering, where does it stand today? Is the department

looking at coming up with legislation on this? Whether it be negative or good

for the general public, that is immaterial, I am looking at the safety side of

it. Where it has not been brought forward, is it a fact I am not saying the

minister lied to me about this, but is it a fact and has justice ruled that

there is a major concern because of possible liability?

There are a lot of questions there, I am sorry about that.

MR. HARDING: Yes. Well, first of all, generally we are all concerned

about the safety of people riding these ATV machines. One thing we are doing is

continuing with our education program of ATV safety: It's not child's play! That

is continuing every year. On that one we emphasize the importance of kids,

especially those under sixteen years of age, that they should wear a helmet. We

are encouraging everyone to do that. Not to drive on public highways, not to

drink and drive, and anyone sixteen years or younger must be accompanied by an

adult. These things we are pushing all of the time and we have noticed that

there has been a reduction in the number of ATV accidents with people under

sixteen, even though we have had a number of them again reported this winter.

Something else we have done, we have increased the maximum fine for careless

driving. That has been increased from $500 to $1,000. That is a move to

discourage people from driving these machines improperly. That is for a first

offence. Also, for not wearing a helmet, we have increased the fine there as

well from $200 to $400. For more serious infractions, such as driving while

impaired, we have increased the fines from $500 to a minimum of $1,500 for first

offence. Those are some of the things we have done to try to encourage people

using these ATV machines to use them in a safer manner.

I would also like to add, I was really encouraged in the last few days to

have heard the Mayor of CBS, Mayor French, say that they are enforcing the use

of ATVs within the community of Conception Bay South. I am really pleased to

hear that kind of thing that municipalities are taking this on too, to try to

make things better overall.

MR. BUTLER: I am glad you mentioned that because that was my next

question, with regard to CBS and where the town has stated they are going to do

that. I was wondering, with regard to the CBS T'Railway, is government going to

step up there or go in conjunction? Because I think that is outside the

municipal boundaries or something, the trail that goes through, I thought I

heard him say the other day. Will government be doing anything to enforce the

laws there?

MR. HARDING: I do not know who is more familiar with that. Donna?

Certainly, wherever we can make this safer for the use of everyone who is

using the machines we will do whatever we can, but I just want to check and make

sure that

MS KELLAND: The enforcements on the T'Railway itself would generally be

the RCMP, RNC. I am not sure if your question was about enforcement.

MR. BUTLER: Yes. I was just wondering, where the Town of CBS, they say

they are going to enforce the laws on their own roads. I was just wondering

where the T'Railway because he said the other day he had no control over it.

He was wondering would government step up, but like you said, the RCMP and the

RNC are the ones who enforce it on this T'Railway.

MS KELLAND: Right and municipal police officers can be delegated as peace

officers under the legislation. They also would have some enforcement capacity.

I am not sure about the boundary issue, particularly.

MR. BUTLER: Okay.

MR. HARDING: I think, too, Mr. Butler, that the wildlife officials,

enforcement people, I think if they come up on drivers on these machines who are

in violation of the regulations, I think they have the power as well to enforce

the regulations.

MR. BUTLER: Okay.

I guess this is why from time to time I have been bringing up the new ATV

regulations. It has not been all that long ago the community or the Town of

Garnish on the Burin Peninsula came out with a rule where they were going to

allow bikers, not to ride the roads, but to give them permission on certain

roads where they could go from point A to point B to get back into the trails.

Now we hear of another town, and rightly so, that is going to control it in

their town. So that is why I was wondering about the legislation, to make it

consistent across the Province. Next thing you are going to have someone say:

Well, they can run up and down our road.

I was just wondering: Where does government look at this? If there is one

town saying we are going to allow it to go on a public road to get from point A

to point B to get back in the country, and someone else then is saying, look, we

are going to enforce the laws here and we are not going to have that. I think

that is where the legislation would play a key part.

MR. HARDING: I remember what you are saying about the Town of Garnish. I

am not sure, after, if they were really permitted to do that, even though it was

within their boundaries. I know there was an issue came out of that, but I

thought that was the result of it. I am not really sure.

MR. BUTLER: It could very well be. So you are saying they were not

allowed to do it what

MR. HARDING: No, as far as I know, after that was what they were

confronted with. Now, the end result, I am not really sure of how it turned out.

I know there was some confusion for a while over that.

MR. BUTLER: Inspections: I know that issue came up yesterday during your

ministerial statement. I think you got up on a point of order and wanted to know

would I release who I was referring to and who they were. I want to assure you,

Minister, it was not a political intention on my behalf. The only things I ever

bring to the House are what I hear from the public in my area.

I will be honest with you. I will not release the names of the companies or

the individuals who gave it to me, but I can assure you it came from good

sources. The area would be from Carbonear possibly up as far as Brigus and

Georgetown area. As a matter of fact, one of the calls even came from another

bus operator. It may be someone who only has two or three buses and you can

verify this for me right here now. What they are telling me is when the

inspectors come, they call ahead and say: We are coming tomorrow, we are coming

next week, or are you ready for us next week? When they come in, if someone has

eight, ten, twelve, or thirty buses, all of those buses are not inspected during

that visit. I can understand that, but the fellow who probably only has two

buses, his two buses are inspected. They are saying: Look, it is not fair. There

could be things wrong with those other buses.

Some of the parents bring it forward and they are expressing it as a concern

for their children. At one time, the bus was only going from point A to point B

in any area of the Province within one little community or whatever, but now,

they are travelling on the Veterans Highway out our way and so on, and I guess

it is a greater concern.

My question is: Inspectors, do they call ahead and say that we are coming to

do an inspection?

MR. HARDING: Certainly, school bus inspection is something that we are

all concerned about. Anything we can do to make improvements there we should all

be a part of it. We have 1,277 school buses registered in the Province. We

conduct a minimum of three inspections a year; two of these inspections are done

by authorized inspection stations throughout the Province. These inspections are

done in July and December. That is certainly when the buses are more or less out

of service. These inspections are done to national standards. They are not our

inspections; they are done to national standards that have been incorporated

into provincial regulations.

When that inspection is done on a particular bus at that time, within fifteen

days, they have to report the results of it to our department. We also do our

own inspections through our own highway enforcement officials. That is done a

minimum of once a year and more in a number of cases. We try to do at least 10

per cent of these inspections unannounced. Last year, we ended up doing over 30

per cent unannounced. We go to these places and they do not know we are coming.

With respect to when we do call ahead, because, as you know, we cannot just

go out any time at all and stop a bus when she is in service; that is just not

practical at all. When we do call ahead to pre-plan an inspection, if there are

ten buses there and we can do two at that time, we designate the buses that we

do the inspection on, not the owner or operator of those buses. That is done all

the time. When we go into a place, we say we are going to do this one and that

one, we pull the plates on it, and those two buses are there until the complete

inspection is done.

I found it kind of strange yesterday when you said that you heard from people

who said that when we go in the operators say: Look, take those two here. Is

that what I thought you had said?

MR. BUTLER: Generally, yes.

MR. HARDING: Yes, but that is not the case. I did not know where you were

coming from on that because when we go into a centre where there are buses, we

designate the buses which we are going to inspect at any given time.

MR. BUTLER: Okay.

Do you do inspections like in personal care homes or some of these seniors'

homes - I call them - around the Province or is that through another department?

MR. HARDING: Probably Health and Community Services, I would say.

MR. BUTLER: Your inspections do not have anything to do with that, we

will say?

MR. HARDING: No, not as such do we? To some extent?

MS KELLAND: Donna Kelland, ADM for Government Services.

We do health and safety inspections in personal care homes through our

environmental health program on behalf of the Department of Health and Community

Services. That would be an annual inspection just for general sanitation,

cleanliness; those types of conditions. We also do fire and life safety

inspections on a regular basis for those types of personal care homes and

long-term care facilities.

MR. BUTLER: It comes down to the same thing. Now maybe there are other

people who do inspections too, like probably Health and so on. I have had calls

on the same issue, that there is a call placed and I can understand that

having to be done, like the minister said, with the buses; you have to call and

see if there is anyone around, I suppose, to go there.

The same thing with an institution or a home where a call went ahead

beforehand, twenty-seven people there now maybe this is outside of your realm

because you would have mentioned what you would inspect. Twenty-seven residents,

one staff member on, but when the call comes saying that we are coming to do an

inspection, there are six or seven there working. Now that is probably outside

of yours, but, basically, it is the same thing regardless of what government

department it is.

It is a concern, or to me it is anyway, to know that there are twenty-seven

residents and in an evening there is one person there running around looking

after them. When a call comes saying we are coming to visit, there are seven or

eight other people hired on. It is basically the same story with the

inspections. Minister, I am not making this up, I would not lie to you. I have

known you too long for that. I am not trying to place you in an awkward

position. I am not saying all your staff does not do their job, I am sure they

do their job.

The other question is when you said you used to do 10 per cent and now it is

30 per cent unannounced

MR. HARDING: That was just last year, yes.

MR. BUTLER: Yes. What were the results when it was unannounced versus the

other way, or would you have any stats on that?

MR. HARDING: I do not know if we do have anything on that. I would not

know that anyway, but it would be interesting, just the same, to see. We can

certainly check any records that we do have. If there is anything like that, we

can provide it to you. As well, to the NDP, we would do the same thing.

MR. BUTLER: Yes, excellent, Sir.

Subhead 3.2.01 - I will go back to the one-liners now; I do not have an awful

lot, Sir.

MR. HARDING: Okay.

MR. BUTLER: Subhead 3.2.01, Support Services, subhead 09, Allowances and

Assistance. I noticed there was $154,000, revised to $85,000. I was just

wondering: Why the nearly 50 per cent decrease and the same amount is budgeted

for again this year, approximately?

MR. HARDING: That is $154,000 down to $85,000?

MR. BUTLER: Yes, Sir.

MR. HARDING: That expenditure is revised by $69,000. That is reduced

funding requirements as a result of fewer students in the publicly advertised

bursary program, which varies from year to year.

MR. BUTLER: Okay.

Subhead 3.2.02, under 06 -

MR. HARDING: Purchased Services?

MR. BUTLER: - Purchased Services, I noticed it was budgeted $80,000,

revised to $150,000 and it is approximately up to that again this year. Why was

the increase there from $80,000 up to the $150,000 in 2010-2011?

MR. HARDING: There is a reallocation of funds there. You will notice it

is further down below, too, in 07 I mean 06, Purchased Services, in 3.2.02.

MR. BUTLER: Yes.

MR. HARDING: There was a reallocation from that of there down to there.

Down in 06, in 3.2.02, there was an increased expenditure for vehicles repairs,

training, and costs associated with reallocation of two offices in Clarenville

and Marystown.

MR. BUTLER: Very good.

Subhead 3.3.01.05, $252,000 budgeted, revised to $250,000 and nothing under

the Estimates for this year. I am just wondering if you could give me an

explanation on Professional Services there.

MR. HARDING: The year before, that $250,000 was a one-time expenditure.

That was for a birth to death linkage project. Someone can probably explain that

to me. It cost $250,000.

MS KELLAND: Donna Kelland, ADM for Government Services. Yes, I can help

with that.

That was part of a three-year project that we had to electronically record

death records back to 1946. Most of those had been paper transactions before

1973, so that was the end of the project just this past year. We recorded all of

those and we linked them with birth records then to be able to match up records

when someone dies so that we nullify their birth records as well.

MR. BUTLER: Very good, thank you.

Under the same heading, because you mentioned about some offices and that -

sorry, under 3.3.01.07, Property Furnishings and Equipment, it was $6,000,

revised to $80,100.

MR. HARDING: That was a variance here of $74,000 roughly. That was the

purchase of new computers, monitors and scanners for the Vital Statistics staff.

MR. BUTLER: Okay.

MR. HARDING: That was done also in conjunction with a project from the

federal government.

MR. BUTLER: Heading 4.1.01, Occupational Health and Safety Inspections,

01, Salaries; I could have this wrong but I think it is a decrease of $781,000,

we saw decreased last year, and now we are estimating more than the original

estimate. Is that correct what I am saying here? Yes, budgeted was $4 million,

revised as $3.2 million and this year it is up to $4.2 million.

MR. HARDING: Yes, that was a variance, as you say, of roughly $780,000.

That was the result of a normal turnover of staff, vacancies, and there was some

delayed recruitment as well in that division, particularly with respect to

hard-to-fill positions.

We have positions now, up in Labrador especially, that we find really

difficult to fill because mainly of the competition we have with the private

sector. The pay up there with IOC and Wabush Mines, certainly, is fairly high in

relation to a lot of government-paid jobs. So that is an area where we find we

really have difficulty in finding people to fill. I think there is one vacancy

up there now, is it, that we are still trying to fill.

MR. BUTLER: What type of positions would they be, Minister?

MR. HARDING: Occupational health and safety inspectors.

MR. BUTLER: Okay.

MR. HARDING: Last year, too, we also found that overtime was somewhat

less than what it had been previously. That varies because you never know when

you are going to be called out to an accident to investigate. That is up and

down every year, depending on the number of accidents that we have to go to.

MR. BUTLER: Minister, back some time ago there were three temporary

employees who were recently not hired back. I was just wondering if you could

elaborate a bit. Our understanding was that this work was still ongoing and was

not complete, even though they might have been hired as temporary. I was just

wondering: What system is in place now to carry on with the work that those

individuals were proceeding with?

MR. HARDING: That was an initiative that the Department of Government

Services took on themselves three years ago. They decided that they wanted to

have their workplace the best that it could be. They started a review of the

occupational health and safety situation within the department. They hired three

people at the time, the people you are talking about, on a temporary basis.

These people were told, when they were hired, that they would be hired for a

three-year period to help to help review the occupational health and safety

situation within the department. Not only our department as well but the other

social government departments within government: Municipal Affairs, HRLE,

Education; there were six or seven altogether.

So these people sort of did the groundwork for this study. In January of this

year, the three people again were told that their employment would be terminated

at the end of March because the work that they had been hired to do have been

pretty well done. The remaining work after that was done, and could have been

done, by our own people in our department.

In addition to the three that we had, we also had two people from the

Workplace Health and Safety Commission who were part of that survey. These

people too, helped to complete the final report. Actually, the full activity

plan as we go forward has not been done and the determination of where we stand

in respect to occupational health and safety regulations. What we have now is

sort of baseline that we can use. Next year there will be another review done to

compare with how much progress we have made with respect to occupational health

and safety issues within the department. It was a department initiative for our

department and we also end up doing it for a number of other departments as

well.

MR. BUTLER: The other departments and agencies are pleased with it? To

the extent it went and the programming they had in place, their people can carry

on their own as well? You are saying your department can finish it off, but like

the other departments and agencies.

MR. HARDING: Yes, I understand they have pretty well done the same. There

are health and safety committees in every place now and training is done when

needed. I know one thing in particular in the scoring, how things were done on

the scoring part of that; they went to six of our office locations on the Avalon

and during the inspection in one of the buildings one of the emergency exit

lights happened to be out of order. That was classed as noncompliant. Something

like that would bring down the overall score. Those kinds of things were

corrected pretty well immediately.

Also, another determinant factor in the scoring was they interviewed a number

of staff people, both management and unionized workers within the department and

asked them different questions with respect to health and safety and those kind

of things. These were all factors in the overall scoring of the results.

MR. BUTLER: I could be wrong, I do not have it here in front of me, but I

believe it was the AG who came out and said the program was only in 50 per cent

compliance. I am wondering, if you are saying everything is fine there, what was

the Auditor General referring to or where is the mixed messaging?

MR. HARDING: Yes. It is kind of difficult when you make a statement like

that to really justify it unless you know how the actual scoring was done. It

was done in three categories. If you had full compliance on a particular item

you would get say one point, if it was partial compliance you would get half a

point, and if there was no compliance then it was classed as zero.

I think there is something like 160-something different questions they ask

employees, and look at different parts of buildings and that kind of thing,

overall. To take an example, if there was 90 per cent compliance in all of these

you would not get 100, you would only get a maximum of fifty because it was only

classed as partial compliance. Anything partial compliance, even though it might

have been 90 per cent, you would only get half a point for that. That brought it

down, and I think it was 54 per cent or something

OFFICIAL: It is (inaudible) percent. It was done by workers'

compensation; it was not the AG -

MR. HARDING: Yes, and this was done by workers' compensation.

MR. BUTLER: Thank you.

Heading 4.2.01, that is under the St. Lawrence above ground miners' probing

question here.

MR. HARDING: Okay, yes.

MR. BUTLER: This year the Workplace Health, Safety and Compensation Act

was amended to compensate above ground miners from St. Lawrence and their

descendents from mining related illnesses. I was wondering, how many have

applied for this under the new legislation or the new agreement?

OFFICIAL: We do not know.

MR. HARDING: We do not have that statistic here now, but we can certainly

get that for you and ensure that you do get it, as well as, like I said before,

the NDP.

MR. BUTLER: Okay. Thank you.

MR. HARDING: On the little variance in that one you mentioned there

4.2.01, that is because the number of claimants is down from the previous year.

MR. BUTLER: Okay.

Heading 4.2.02.10, Grants and Subsidies; I was just wondering if you could

explain. It is not an increase or anything; it is the same $16,500 right through

there. That is just for promoting occupational health and safety, is it?

Okay. I am getting a nod from the minister, so it is okay.

MR. HARDING: It is okay, yes.

MR. BUTLER: Heading 5.1.01.07, Government Purchasing Agency, there was

$1,700 budgeted, revised to $125,000 and this year it is estimated at $1,700. I

guess that is a pretty straightforward answer but I will still ask it anyway. It

must be something new you are going on with there.

MR. HARDING: Yes, it was. It was sort of unanticipated expenditures that

we had. We purchased new photocopiers to replace the outdated machine that we

had there before.

MR. BUTLER: Yes.

MR. HARDING: Also, there was some modular furniture purchases included in

that figure.

MR. BUTLER: When you know what the topic is $1,700 is not in the budget

for any breakdowns, is it?

MR. HARDING: Yes.

In that office, we had Corporate Services move to that particular office last

year -

MR. BUTLER: Okay.

MR. HARDING: - which brought seven new employees, so most of this modular

furniture expenditure, that is where it went.

MR. BUTLER: I have two other questions, I think, Minister. One is on

regulation of real estate agents. That is for your department, I think, isn't

it?

MR. HARDING: Yes.

MR. BUTLER: I guess that comes back to the AG again, he has found that

the Financial Services Regulation Division has neither requested financial

information from agents nor conducted any reviews since 2002. He went on to say

however, out of ninety-two licensed real estate agents only forty provided such

statements. I was wondering if you could give me an update on that, what is

happening. Since then this is probably corrected. What action have you taken to

come up with a set of policies and procedures to correct that?

MR. HARDING: I know one thing we have done there, we have implemented a

new financial reporting process, and the AG made reference to that in his

report.

With respect to the other issues, it is an ongoing thing. We are still making

improvements as we can. That was one area in particular that needed attention

and we have given attention to it.

MR. BUTLER: The last one, Minister, is to do with boil orders. I know we

asked this question last year and I think your department, in conjunction with

Environment and Conservation, get involved there. I think you both do certain

inspections on drinking water. I was wondering, could you provide an update on

how many boil orders we have, or would that be totally through the other

department? How do the two departments work together on that important issue?

MR. HARDING: We are certainly involved with that issue. As of May 9, 2011

there were 215 boil water advisories in place. There are 164 communities

affected by these boil water advisories. One hundred and ninety-eight of the 215

are for non-microbiological reasons, such as: no disinfection system, there are

forty-two in that category; the system was turned off, there was twenty-three in

that class; the system was broken, there were forty; there were operational

problems with seventeen; and residual chlorine problems in seventy-three.

With respect to that issue, I know out in our own community where the town is

spread out so far, when they put chlorine in the system at the beginning, the

source of the system, it is very difficult to pick up any residual as you get

toward the end of the town. So there were seventy-three in that category. Only

seventeen, or 7.91 per cent, of the total boil water advisories are due to

microbiological reasons. That would be certainly unsafe water tests.

If you did not get all of those statistics, I can get that to you.

MR. BUTLER: I would appreciate that.

Just looking through my notes there, I have one other one. I go back to the

occupational health and safety issue. You gave me the information and I think

you are telling me you feel safe with this and the other departments feel safe.

I just want to read a couple of comments - and your opinion on it, you do not

have to respond to it - what other people are saying.

For example, it went on to say that these employees are currently working on

an OHS program for environmental protection officers. The EPOs are currently out

in the field without the proper training and equipment. There is currently no

way to know or check if they have the proper training and equipment. They were

just starting to get this in place when the plug was pulled. I understand and I

agree with what you told me, but when you hear something like that I guess there

is always a concern there. Is there something happening that you are not aware

of or what have you?

MR. HARDING: I am not sure, but the information that was presented in the

House of Assembly at that time was from the survey that was being done. At that

time, the final report had not even been completed. As a result, I did not have

the report when that came up in the House of Assembly. There are only eight or

nine people who had that information from the uncompleted report. We are not

sure of the source of your information, Sir, and I will not bother to ask.

Anyway, there is probably something there that I will not make reference to at

this point in time. We will leave it at that.

The three people who you had referenced were people who were hired for a

specific purpose: to prepare the planning and review what we had and set this

baseline thing for our overall occupational health and safety thing. They were

told at the beginning that they had three years' work, roughly, and they were

told three months prior to termination that they would be finished the end of

March.

With respect to why, I do not know if anyone ever came out and said I think

we should be on longer or anything like that, I do not really know. From our

perspective, the work that they were hired for was completed and we had no

problem in finalizing the overall report on that particular three-year project.

MR. BUTLER: I will just say, Sir, it came from people within the system.

I will leave it at that.

The other thing I want to comment on, Minister, you mentioned it in your

opening statement about the one-stop shopping from Mews over to Mount Pearl.

MR. HARDING: Yes.

MR. BUTLER: I think that is a good thing, regardless of what department

in government it is, to bring things under the one roof. I know what it was to

go to one place and then they say, no you have to go over there or you have to

go somewhere else. I commend you for that; that is a good venture.

MR. HARDING: We have been doing that throughout the Province and we found

that where we did that in other communities it really worked well.

One other thing that we did, too, and it was done over the past couple of

years, this teleservice thing that we have at Motor Registration; we found the

public, especially out in the outports, people just cannot stand making a phone

call and getting a recording on the other end. I think we have put five or six

people in the Corner Brook office at this teleservice centre, and it has gone

over really well. I think last year they handled something like 160,000-odd

phone calls. They provide whatever information they have with respect to Motor

Registration in the Province to the callers. We have a really positive feedback,

too, from the public on that particular initiative.

MR. BUTLER: That is good. I have another Estimates coming up next week in

another department where the telephone system is not as good, I can assure you,

after five or six years. People have to wait for forty-five minutes and then

they get a message saying: I am sorry; you will have to call back again. I am

glad to hear you say yours is working like that.

With that, Sir, I want to thank the minister for this morning, and his staff,

and to thank you. I have nothing else.

CHAIR: Thank you, Roland.

I will call for the subheads.

CLERK: 1.1.01 to 5.1.01 inclusive.

CHAIR: 1.1.01 to 5.1.01 inclusive; shall the total carry?

All those in favour, aye'.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye.

CHAIR: Carried.

On motion, subheads 1.1.01 through 5.1.01 carried.

On motion, Department of Government Services, total heads, carried.

CHAIR: Shall I report the Estimates of the Department of Government

Services carried without amendment?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye.

CHAIR: Carried.

On motion, Estimates of the Department of Government Services carried without

amendment.

CHAIR: Before we call for adjournment, we need adoption of the last

Government Services Estimates Committee minutes of May 11.

MR. LODER: So moved.

CHAIR: Moved by Terry Loder, that the minutes be adopted as circulated.

All those in favour, aye'.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye.

CHAIR: Carried.

On motion, minutes adopted as circulated.

CHAIR: Our next Committee, for the information of the Committee, will be

on Wednesday, May 18, at 5:30 p.m., and that will be Labrador and Aboriginal

Affairs.

With that, I would like to thank the Committee again for your time. Mr.

Minister, to you as well and your staff, thanks for your co-operation. I think

everybody is satisfied with the responses.

Thank you very much.

MR. HARDING: I want to thank the Committee very much as well for the

co-operation and little communication back and forth that we had. I am really

pleased with that, and I thank my staff for their contribution as well.

Thank you.

CHAIR: With that, I will call for a motion for adjournment.

MR. BUTLER: So moved.

CHAIR: Moved by Roland Butler to adjourn.

All those in favour, aye'.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye.

CHAIR: Carried.

Thank you very much.

On motion, the Committee adjourned.