LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Tuesday, 24 June, 1986. Time - 8:00 p.m. CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY - COMMUNITY SERVICES MR. CHAIRMAN , M. Dolin: Committee will come to order. We are on Page 33 , Item 3.(d), Programs . The Minister of Community Services . HON. M. SMITH: Yes, I'd just like to distribute the items in Financial Assistance, 3.(d)(3), the comparative figures for 1985-86 and 1986-87 in the basic program areas - community residence , additional care and support, supervised apartment living, respite service, crisis intervention, vocational, pre-vocational , day activity and transportation .

Another page of information I'd like to table is the residences by region with their capacity , the per diems which have an element for capital, a base amount and the total. I draw the attention to the members of the fact that this is just the community residence element , that there are the other functions that I mentioned . There is additional support available on the basis of need . So I'll have those distributed . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Rhineland . MR. A. BROWN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

We've just received this information, and I would like to have an opportunity to take a look at the various expenditures within this particular community residences for the mentally handicapped . I would just like to ask one question . The supervised apartment living, I wonder if the Minister could elaborate . How is this program working out? Is she satisfied with the program or is she running into some difficulties? HON. M. SMITH: The supervised apartment living is one of the options other than support in the family home or group living .

There is individualized training , and skill development for handicapped persons capable of living in a semi-independent setting . That could be one , two, or three individuals in an apartment with a support person that could range all the way from a live-in person to someone who's available during the days or on an as-needed basis. They 're very much based on the individual readiness and 24-hour planning that's available for those people . MR. A.

BROWN: When we're talking about a live-in person , I suppose that this person would be receiving remuneration for, let's say, living in with two of these mentally retarded in an apartment. Is that right? HON. M. SMITH: Most of them function as itinerant supports who visit the individuals on a certain pattern depending on the need . They would be paid a salary for that type of support role . They might help with managing their money or deal with some of the more complex tasks . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for River East. MRS . B. MITCHELSON: Thank you , Mr. Chairman .

On this sheet that was just passed out - the community residences for the mentally handicapped - can you tell me why SPIKE House isn't on this or is that something different - SPIKE House in North Kildonan? HON. M. SMITH: It is a residence that would be on the new list - one that's in the final processes of final agreement . MRS. B. MITCHELSON: After April 1, 1986, because SPIKE was approved after that date - is that why it's not on this list - is that what you 're telling me? HON. M. SMITH: It's not operational yet. The cut-off year that we're dealing with here is March 31 , 1986. MRS . B. MITCHELSON: Mr.

Chairman , I understand that approval then has been given since this date for six beds for the mentally and physically handicapped at SPIKE House. Am I correct? HON. M. SMITH: Yes, approval has been given for the six. MRS. B. MITCHELSON: Mr. Chairman , the facility I know was constructed to accommodate eight beds but only six were approved which apparently conforms to provincial guidelines . I do notice on this sheet here that there are several other facilities that do have more than six beds . Can you explain that to me? HON. M. SMITH: Yes, they were in existence prior to the Welcome Home planning process .

The size of the residence has been on the recommendation of the provincial coordinating team in consultation with the regional teams. They 're recommending that we not go above the six. MRS. B. MITCHELSON: Mr. Chairman, when was that recommendation made? HON. M. SMITH: Two years ago . MRS. B. MITCHELSON: Can you tell me then whether any of the other residences on this sheet that are abov e the six bed limit have been constructed or approved within the last two years? HON. M. SMITH: We have two that are listed at eight in the Parklands area .

One was , in fact , a renovation of a program that did have eight before . The other one was approv ed at eight as a special arrangement by the 1239

Tuesday, 24 June, 1986 provincial committee after reviewing the geography and the need in that particular area and the distances between towns. MRS. B. MITCHELSON: Mr. Chairman, can the Minister give me the names of those few residences that were appr oved and the number of beds? HON. M. SMITH: The Parklands one of eight, one was a renovation of an existing eight; the other one was approved at the 8 level by the regional comm ittee. That's like their proposal. In the case of SPIKE, the regional commit tee approved six and the provincial steering comm ittee approved six.

Then there was an appeal process set up compos ed of nongovernmental people to review their proposal and they, too, came in reco mmending six, but said that the other six beds could be rented out, say, to students. There is a possible negotiation that can still occur but that's the current state of the negotiations with SPIKE. MRS. B. MITCHELSON: Mr. Chairman, I unde rstand that it was quite a frustrating time for the people of SPIKE during negotiations. I know that there are eight beds sitting there able to be utilized.

With a cry for beds in the community and the need to have people placed through the Welcome Home Program, I find it kind of hard to understand why those two beds that are sitting there ready to be used cannot be approved. Can you give me some explanation? HON. M. SMITH: Well, I guess there are two answers to that. One is that the thrust is an attempt to give people a more personalized better quality life. The other is that the communities can take initiatives but they do require public monies to operate.

We did assign to the provincial steering committee and the regional teams the responsibility for setting the criteria. We haven't been too eager to step in and interfere with that process, having set it up in good faith with an appeal process. Tha t's been the situation to da te. The appeal comm ittee was made up of parent- to-parent representatives from the Ma nitoba Developmental Centre Auxiliary, ACL Manitoba and the Residential Coalition. MRS. B.

MITCHELSON: I have a letter here that back in 19 84 the Minister did say that a major thrust would be und ertaken across Ma nitoba to strengthen commun ity-based services for mentally handicapped citizens and to reduce the resident population at the Manitoba Developmental Centre. She also recognized that these new ventures require the dedication and cooperation of both communit y individuals and the public sector if these goals are to be reac hed. I would say that these community individuals at SPIKE House have put every effort forward to acc ommoda te the mentally and physically handicapped.

I know it's a very well-accepted program in our commun ity. I just cannot understand why the beds are sitting there empty when they could be utilized. HON. M. SMITH: We ll, I can unde rstand that feeling from the commu nity level but un fortunately the combination of public funding and community initiative must have some guidelines. We can't support any and all initiatives or high-priced initiatives in one area and lower-quality ones in the other. We also have the interests of equity and responsible spending of scarce public money. So there are guidelines for the financial support.

Now, the issue of num bers in a residence, or location of a residence, may not seem a big issue to many of us, but to people closely involved with the care of the mentally disabled, many of them feel very strongly that the smaller , more intimate setting is the one where the ind ividuals do get the sense of personal attention.

The groups that are advising us, it's not an instance where government sets the standard and is imposing it; the stan da rds themselves and the process for appr oval are carried out by regional teams and by the pro vincia l steering co mmittee with majority representa tion, really , by community groups. So it's been that process that we have been following in this instance. MRS. B. MITCHELSON: I think that if I can just tell you, the goals of SPIKE are to provide a home-like residence for mentally and/or limited physically hand icapped people in the commu nity.

They have an excellent program, a very intimate program, if you'd like to call it that. They have a day program where currently those in residence go to WASO or ARM workshops and they use the public transit system. it's a very acce ssible location to the public transit system. The non-working activities include swimming lessons at the East Kildonan Y or the downtown YMCA. They have a Friday night social club. They have bowling on Saturdays. They attend local church services. They have frequent outings to restaurants.

They have very close family ties. it's a very well-run home, well-accepted, well-supported by the community. I wonder if the Minister might look into why the beds can't be used. HON. M. SMITH: Wel l, there was a process of appeal set up and there was, I think, an accept able compromise arrived at. Again, as I say, there are the overall objectives that don't always appear evident to the people in an area. Communities and individuals do have autonomy, but when it's the case of how the public monies are to be spent, there have to be some guidelines.

In this case, as I say, I think we're tried to provide as good and, in a sense, unbia sed an appeal as we could on the particular issue. MRS. B. MITCHELSON: Mr . Cha irman, maybe something could be clarified for me. As far as the public monies go, can you tell me; is there a difference in per diem rates from one institution to another? I'm sorry, I don't understand. I need that clarified or explained. HON. M. SMITH: The per diem rates are based on level of care plus a contribution to capital.

In this case, the group went ahead and built without getting approval of the plans, and it is somewhat beyond our guideline s. Now, we said we'll run it through the comm ittees and the appeal process, and if the consensus is that there should be an exception here, we' ll abide by that. 1240

Tuesday, 24 June, 1986 Again , there was one other community that moved ahead with a more elaborate building than we had funding for and we were able to reach a negotiated settlement with them whereby the community took up the extra expense and agreed to cover it and we applied a per diem that was based on the level of care requ ired .

As I say, we've tried to be somewhat flexible, particularly in the phasing-in period , but there is a point where if a group goes ahead without approval and constructs something and then expects the public to fund it according to their guidelines, that we run into these difficulties. MRS. B. MITCHELSON: Mr. Chairman , maybe the Minister could explain to me what happened in the other instance where there was special approval given to the eight-bed residence. I didn't get the name of the residence that was approved. HON. M.

SMITH : In the case of the Parklands one , the regional committee reviewed the plan and recommended that they have six permanent and two respite and recommended it to the provincial committee which approved it. It fit into the regional plan. In the case of the SPIKE residence , that was not the case. They went ahead and built prior to approval and without the approval of the regional committee.

Now, again, we have a lot of people who are putting in a lot of work in these regional committees and the provincial steering committee, so we've, apart from trying to build in appeal procedures and so on, we're loath to leap in and say that their decision is inappropriate. MRS. B. MITCHELSON: Is the Minister saying that there still is an appeal process that these people can use to attempt to get the per diem rates for the two beds that are sitting there unused? HON. M. SMITH: Again I repeat, the Winnipeg regional team did turn down the plan.

The appeal process approved that six beds could operate and that they would be funded. They said that the other two beds could be occupied, but not by handicapped people. In other words, they could be rented out to students or staff if the funding of the place required that extra revenue ; but the issue is the numbers being put in together and , as I say, in this case the group had gone ahead and built the building prior to approval, was one of the difficulties. MRS. B. MITCHELSON: Mr.

Chairman, is the Minister then telling me that the Winnipeg Regional Division is penalizing the people from SPIKE House for building the building ahead of time, but the other region that did approve an eight-bed residence was not . . . What you have said to me, in respect, is that SPIKE House was penalized because the eight beds weren't built and the Winnipeg region didn't approve those . Is that what you're telling me? HON. M. SMITH: No, I think I said that SPIKE went ahead with the building prior to getting funding approval, and the regional team wanted to reject it. They had some other concerns.

The appeal looked it over and said , well , the other concerns are there but they aren't so serious and that we think a reasonable compromise would be to approve the use of it for six people and allow them to use the other two rooms for non-handicapped. There were some concerns about it being next to another institutional-type residence when the desire has been to spot these residences around a neighbourhood, not have them cheek-by-jowl ; but they felt that they could bend on that one.

I think the two buildings actually have separate driveways and they were going to put some kind of landscaping between them so that it wouldn't be building another sort of mini institution in that part of town. I think the appeal committee felt that they had listened to the arguments and the concerns and recommended what they thought was a reasonable compromise . MRS. B. MITCHELSON: Mr.

Chairman , does the appeal committee consu lt in any way with the area residents or the people in the area to find out whether it's feasible to have a certain size, or not a certain size, or whether an extra couple of beds is really going to make any difference? HON. M. SMITH: I guess in the past thing s came in from whatever group wanted to plan something and they were or were not accepted by government. In this case , we set up a planning process that involved the provincially recognized groups who'd been interested and involved in issues relating to the mentally handicapped.

The regional teams were set up on the same basis. I presume if there was any broader consultation to be done in terms of location and so on, that would be done at the city level in the zoning process ; but the guidelines that were developed, within which funding was to be approved , as I say, the Winnipeg team didn 't want to vary them, the appeal committee said , yes, let's approve it, but for six only.

In terms of the accountability for the expenditure, it's the provincial level that raises the money and funds these residences ; so, in a sense, it's our respons ibility , working through our planning teams to set those criteria. We don't guarantee that everything initiated by a community can be fully funded . The consultative process usually eliminates anyone making an expenditure or building a building prematurely. Most groups get their plan approved and their funding established before they go ahead. MR. CHAIRMAN: Does the member have a further question? MRS. B. MITCHELSON: Not right at this moment. MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Minister of Industry, Trade and Technology. 1241 HON. V. SCHROEDER: I'll pass. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Membe r for River Heights. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: In the list of payments to external agencies, the first one under Community Social Services is the Canadian Association for Community Living .

Tuesday, 24 June, 1986 Is there also a Manitoba Asso ciation for Community Living, or when we talk about AGL , is this the agency that in fact we're talking about? HON. M. SMITH: It's the Manitoba division of CACL. If I can anticipate your question, the reduction in the grant was because they had done a special pro ject for us last year. It was a once only project. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: Thank you for your anticip ation.

My next question however is, where would I find , for example, the grants to the Association for Communit y Living for the nine new residences which they anticipa te opening in the next six to eight months? HON. M. SMITH: In the paper we distributed , called Breakdown of Items in Financ ial Assistance 9.(3)(d)(3), the first item, Community Resi dences would contain monies for that, but they're not paid by way of grants . . . Sorry, and the Additional Care and Support. Those two together are what provide the care and residential coverage, but they 're not done on a straight grant to the residents.

They're done on a per diem , plus a capita l, plus an additional care support, from a range based on the need of the individual. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: Similar to the sheet that we got, Community Residences for the Mentally Handicapped. Mr. Chairman, can the Minister explain to me, if it's possible - and it may be an impossible breakdown and I understand that - how much of the money that is being devoted to programs is going to the physically as opposed to the mentally disabled , and I recognize it's difficult because some of them are both? HON. M.

SMITH: Yes, I'll go down the list and identify the ones that are going to people with a variety of physical disabilities primarily: Independent Interpreter Referral Service; the CNIB ; Society for Manitobans with Disabilities; Employment Preparation Centre; Canadian Paraplegic Association ; Ten-Ten Sinclair ; Kiwanis Centr e of the Deaf; Canadian Council of the Blind ; Independent Living Resource Centre; and Manitoba League of the Physically Handicapped . The others focus primar ily on the mentally retarded, although we occasionally have crossover . MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: Mr.

Chairman , can the Minister explain why ARM Industries has had its budget cut so dramatically this year? HON. M. SMITH: Yes, a year or two ago ARM Indus tries had a community board that ran into debt, and the members requested that we take it over. They were fearful of being individually responsibl e for the debt. We took it over, retired the debt on a phased basis , stabilized it, and will in time return it to a community board . MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: Mr.

Chairm an, in that the Kiwanis Centre of the Deaf has obviously undergone some internal problems recently, and there seems to be some morale problems there because of the board decision , can the Minister enlighten us as to any involvemen t that her department has had there and any reconcili ation which is perhaps taking place among the staff? HON. M. SMITH: The Kiwan is Centre of the Deaf when it was established had funding - well it has a management agreement - the board operates that facility on behalf of the Department of Housing. There is a unit of personal care home service in that building.

There was no funding from Community Serv ices until a year or two ago when they had some cutbac ks in the funding they had from CMHC. It seemed to stem from tighter auditing at that end to remove non­ mortgage related costs. I think some of the social support programs were, in fact , coming through that route . We provided them with some short-term funding to give them a little extra social support service, and then as the problems there evolved, although our department was not the lead department in relating to them , nonetheless we funded through our department an external evaluation of the problem s.

It's a very large and comp lex operation, over 200 residents , of whom only about 130 are deaf or hard of hearing. We asked the social planning council to come in with the agreement of the board of the Kiwanis Centre to review their history and current problems and make recommendations as to not what to decide but a process that the board could go through to address the problems . That repo rt was tabled with them , Phase I, and the board has been dealing with it. I guess the decisions are being made by the board which is a representative group.

There 's four Kiwanians, four people elected by the tenants, and four who represent the Winnipeg Community Centre of the Deaf . MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: Thank you for the information , but I guess my question is still with regard to the firing of the present director and the concern expressed certainly through the media by the staff. Has the Minister taken a direct intere st in resolving this issue or has she decided that the court is the best place for this thing to be solved? HON. M.

SMITH: Well, the Centre is in my own constituen cy, so I have been conside red I guess a person who is interested and involved to a deg ree. I have separated my personal interest in what's going on with people from my ministerial role in government when we have several departments that relate to a community organization . We try to keep very clear the lines as to who is the lead ministry. In this case , it is the Department of Housing. As I say, I'm aware. I could probably reproduce some of the arguments from all 10 sides.

I think it's a case of a complex building trying to meet many needs and perhaps it may have an additional problem that, unlike Ten-Ten Sinclair when it was established, there was a soc ial support component buil t in . In this case, there wasn 't perhap s as much anticipation of the types of problems tha t were to be met , and over time some of the problems weren't dealt with in a satisfactory way so they grew and grew. One of the key elements, I thi nk , has also been the growing self-consciousness of the deaf and hard-of­ hearing community in that they increasingly want to influence their own affairs.

But there 's one reason we 1242

Tuesday, 24 June, 1986 put in the social planning council as a community body that would focus on the process decision-making authority issues in a way that would enable the board to deal with the issues. I guess government insofar as we relate to a lot of community groups, we much prefer the community group to be able to work through its problems. It's only in, I suppose, as a last resort that we would consider moving in and taking over. There certainly have been some people who thought we should.

I would say that a lot of the people have never understood how the executive director was responsible to the board and that's one of the issues that 's been involved. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: This question might be more appropriate to the First Minister than to the Minister of Community Services, but perhaps she can explain to me what happens in an institution like the Kiwanis Centre which , in fact, receives grants, as do many others, from three or four or five ministries? In this case, it's Health and it's Housing and it's Community Services.

Is there any method within these governments of saying, this Minister or that Minister takes priority on decision making for this particular institution? MR. CHAIRMAN: I don 't know whether it's strictly within 4.(d), but if the Minister wants to respond - the Minister of Community Services. HON. M. SMITH: Well , I think it was a question asked in good faith. There is a Social Resource Committee that does try to resolve any interdepartmental issues.

There has been an interdepartmental committee, but when we set up those committees we do designate a lead Minister and there it's usually based on who has the weightiest involvement. MR. CHAIRMAN: Does the member have any further questi ons ? 3.(d)(1)-pass - the Member for Brandon West . MR. J. McCRAE: Mr. Chairman, I'm just looking at the breakdown of items in Financial Assistance, under 3.(d)(3), with respect to community residences. Did I understand correctly that there are nine new residences proposed in Manitoba this year? HON. M. SMITH: There's planned for 210 beds . The material was handed out yesterday.

Some of those will be in resi dences and some of them will be supervi sed apartments. There's a variety of arrangements. MR. J. McCRAE: Mr. Chairman , under Additional Care and Support, are we talking about how many personnel, or additional personnel would be required? I'm going by the figures that are on the paper and there appear to be fairly significant increases year over year. I just wonder how many new people on staff will be required for the additional care and support. HON. M. SMITH : There's nothing in this item that is a direct payment of staff in our department.

It all goes to purchase service for individuals , based on the assessment of their individual need . MR. J. McCRAE: Mr. Chairman, under Supervised Apartment Living - I'm just trying to get a handle , 1243 Sir, on what these numbers mean . When we increase from 190,000 to 396,000 in one year, I wonder how many more people are being served or how many people are being moved from other typ es of care into supervised apartment living. HON. M. SMITH: The numb ers represent a total of hourly wage s.

The type of support service and training that is given has been at about seven hours per week, on average, and we hope to increase that to the 10 to 12 hour per week range. There are 128 people living in supervised apartment situations. MR. J. McCRAE: Mr. Chairman , there are 128, or ther e will be 128? HON. M. SMITH: I'm sorry, I appreciate the ... We were 128 as of December 31, 1985 and there will be more by the end of this year. We don't have an accurate prediction of that at the moment. MR. J. McCRAE: Mr.

Chairman , it's fairly clear that there will be more because the budget for Supervised Apartment Living is, I think , almost doubled year over year. One wonders , if it's 128 this year, does that mean it will be 256 by this time next year? HON. M. SMITH: No, we are almost doubling, not quite, the hours per week , from seven to 10 to 12. There 's also some increase in the rates charged. So there won 't be a dramatic increase in this but there will be some . Again, a lot of the people moving out of MDC would not be eligible for this .

We'd be more likely to find people who have perhaps been living at home and could move into this situation, people at risk in the community. It is a substantial number in the total picture. MR. J. McCRAE: Mr. Chairman , I wonder where I can look in these Estimates to find a corresponding decrease - if the people are spending more hours in supervised apartment living , then does that mean they're spending less hours somewhere else? Maybe the Minister could explain that to me. HON. M.

SMITH: That would vary, since in the Welcome Home thrust , in addition to moving 220 out of MDC over the period of the program , we're also picking up 220 people at risk in the community . Some of those might be people who are being cared for by aging care­ givers , and who might qualify for this type of living, with supports.

The other group that normally moves into this category would be the young people who have grown up in the community and achieved the age of 18 to 21, or so, and who - perhaps their family is no longer able to care for them and yet they 're not quite ready for completely independent living, and this provides a halfway measure. MR. J. McCRAE: Mr. Chairman , I'm just looking at the bottom line here and I wonder if the Minister could give us more information about this breakdown.

Yes, it's broken down but, really , I wonder if we couldn't have some more information, perhaps in written form, tomorrow or something like that , so we can be a little better educated as to where all this money is going .

Tuesday, 24 June, 1986 We know that the needs are increasing in our province and the people need better services and they've come to expect better services and they deserve better services. We need to know, I think, a little more about where all these big numbers, how they add up and what services are being offered? How many more people are being served ? What better services are being offered to them and made available to them? What kind of training is going into providing care-givers with the knowledge they need to look after the people who are part of these programs?

I wonder if the Minister would unde rtake to give us more information about this tomorrow. MR. CHAIRMAN: We missed the last part. MR. J. McCRAE: I say I wonder if the Minister would undertake to give us more of the kind of information I'v e been asking for if not tomorrow then whenever it's convenient for her. HON. M. SMITH: I could give a general description of each service. Then if you had specific questions, we could undertake it.

The respite service, we've inc reased it by 182,800, or 15 8,800 is to provide respite in accordance with new service guidelin es and additional funding required to supp ort Communi ty Respite Service Inc. on an annual ized basis. That was a short-term multi-disability respite service that was developed on a short-term basis. We have been giving respite to families of the mentally retarded, and what we've tried to do is blend the two programs as best we can - 24,000 to provide respite to persons placed in natural or foster settings during Year Two of Welcome Home.

Again, I can go through the crisis intervention and the pre-vocational day activi ty, but I could provide a written

summary for you tomorrow if that would be satisfactor y. MR. J. McCRAE: Mr. Cha irman, that would be satisfactory to me unless other honourable members would like to hear it now, but I don't mind reading Ha nsard a few days from now. I'd just like to have a little more detail on this. MR. CH AIRMAN: 3.(d) (1) - pass; 3.(d) (2)-p ass; 3.(d)(3)- pass. 3.(d)(4) - the Member for River East. MRS. B. MITCHELSON: Ye s, Mr.

Chairman, I would like to ask the Minister whether she could provide for us some information on what community residences for the mentally handicapped have been approved since April 1, 1986 and the per diems for those? HON. M. SMITH: We did distribute yesterday two papers: one that listed housing app lications for mortgage approval for 13 7; we also handed out a list that had a larger number which gave the numbers of approvals by region. MRS. B. MITCHELSON: Can I get copies of those? This then is a list of residences that have been approved since April 1s t? HON. M. SMITH: Again, there were two sheets.

The one that is entitled Financing of Community Residences, that has 137. They are ones who actually have houses that are in the process of getting their mortgage approval. The longer list identifies people whose plans have been approved but who are in the process of finding housing. MRS. B. MITCHELSON: All right. On the ones that have been approved on this sheet, am I missing it or is there a per diem rate on this sheet? HON. M. SMITH: The per diem appeared on the long sheet you have, plus I did read into the record earlier the levels of care and the associated per diems.

The pattern of per diems is $23.63 as a base rate up to $7.72 per day for the capital, in other words, to pay the mortgage cost; and a range from $8.00 to $33.56 for special care and assistance, again that's based on level of need. MRS. B. MITCHELSON: Mr. Chairman, can the Minister tell me what the per diem on the capital is for SPIKE House? HON. M. SMITH: I think you 'll find it's at the upper end at the $7.72 per person per day. MRS. B. MITCHELSON: Thank you. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Aiel. MR. G.

DUCHARME: On 3.(d)(4) on the $8,905,000, the total aggregate amount recoverable from Canada, does the Federal Government specify what programs they use it to go towards their particular grant? HON. M. SMITH: Ye s, the two plans that provide us some support are the Canada Assistance Plan and the VRDP, Vocational Rehabilitation Devel opment Program. This is for disabled persons. They do specify what is cost-shareable; not all the services we provide are. MRS. B. MITCHELSON: Mr.

Chairman, the Shalom residence, can the Minister indicate to me whether they're paid on a basis of six individuals or eight individuals in that residence? HON. M. SMITH: On the second page of the list we handed out, Commun ity Residences for Mentally Hand icapped as at April 1, 19 86, there are two Shalom residences, both for a capacity of six. MRS. B. MITCHELSON: They have a capacity of six, Mr. Chairman, but are they being paid a per diem rate for six individuals? HON. M. SMITH: Ye s, the per diem is listed there.

The capital rates vary because some of the houses in the past have been - the mortgage hasn't been as substantial. The per diems are listed. What isn't listed there is the possible add itional amount, specia l additional care and support, based on individual need. That doesn't appear there and that's tailored to the needs of the individuals. 1244

Tuesday, 24 June, 1986 MRS. B. MITCHELSON: Yes, Mr. Chairman, I had some information. I wonder whether the Minister could verify whether it is correct or not. The Shalom Home was guaranteed a per diem rate for eight indivi dual s, if they reduced their actual number to six . Could you tell me whether this is fact or not? HON. M. SMITH: Many of the pre-existing residences before the Welcome Home had different ways of being paid . We are moving into these standardized rates and most of them have been somewhat improved , so a lot of past anomalies have in fact been eliminated.

This is the current relationship with them and we, in fact, can't pay out more than we have approval for. We have criteria by which we pay out monies and we must satisfy Treasury that we are observing the criteria . MRS. B. MITCHELSON: Mr. Chairman, is the Minister then telling me that they are not being paid a per diem rate for eight individuals at this home? HON. M. SMITH: This is the current pattern of payment. There may have been some variations in the past , because in so much of this area there were not set per diems or a standard way of assessing need and there was quite a variation of modes of payment.

Our attempt has been to standardize them, based on some formula that has some integrity across the system. MRS. B. MITCHELSON: Mr. Chairman , seeing the Minister hasn't really answered my question, do you think that she could find out for us whether the Shalom Home, in fact, is being paid a per diem rate for eight individuals with only the actual number of six? HON. M. SMITH: Well, if the member is saying that the information we have there is incorrect, I'm not comfortable with that; however, I am never averse to double-checking on something.

The purpose for having these standards identified and the rates clarified is so we can be fair across the system. We don't think it right that, in a sense , the squeaky-wheel facility gets a lot and the quieter ones get none , or get very much less . We're trying to standardize according to some real measure of the needs of the individual and what is required to maintain a standard of care. I will double­ check for the member . Again, if you have particular information , if you would write a memo to me, that would assist, but I will double-check for my own satisfaction . MRS. B. MITCHELSON: Thank you. MR.

CHAIRMAN: 4.(d)(4) - the Member for Kirkfield Park. MRS . G. HAMMOND: Could the Minister indicate if the department is planning make Winnipeg into three regions? HON. M. SMITH: The Health and Community Services that have been delivered on a regional basis , the Winnipeg delivery has been restructured. The Health Department is the lead Minister there and instead of six areas , it has been restructured to have three regions with regional directors , and they will be directly accountable to an executive director for Winnipeg , who will be accountable to both Health and Community Services. MRS. G.

HAMMOND: I wonder if the Minister would exp lain . There were six areas , now there are three regions with one execu tiv e director . Who is heading the three regions in the regions? HON. M. SMITH: The Civil Service has advertised for applicants to fill those positions. MRS . G. HAMMOND: What will the criteria be for heading up these agencies? What are they looking for as far as degrees? HON. M. SMITH: I can obtain the bulletin for tomorrow, if the member would like .

Again, the areas were accountable to both departments and the regional structure with direct accountability to an execut ive director , who then would be accou ntable to both departments was cons idered to be a more effective way to organize. When the two departments were split, some of these organizational crossovers were not perhaps dealt with as thoughtfully or effectively as they might have been .

In the passage of time, we found it difficult to have the smaller areas accountable to two departments, their administrative reporting and so on, and they ended up having to duplicate and follow somewhat different guidelines from the different departments. So we had a full review of the system and the recommendation was that we go to this structure . MRS. G. HAMMOND: The regions then are just being set up, I gather. How is that going to affect now the six areas? HON. M.

SMITH: The plan is to get the three regional directors and have them constitute a planning team and then they will review the areas and recommend a regional breakdo wn . I'm sure that one of the things they will look at will be the different regional lines of all their associated departments, because they deliver a lot of health programs as well as community services . MRS. G. HAMMOND: Now you have three regions, you had six areas , you 'll have one executive director and three directors. How does that compare to the structure of the six areas as far as senior level staff? MR.

CHAIRMAN : I was just wondering whether or not _;_ this item had been passed. This is Item 3.(

b) which is Ops. We are now on 3.(d)(4) . We're getting - I think we can be somewhat reasonable but I think . . . HON. M. SMITH: I don't mind answering that one question .. . 1245 MRS. G. HAMMOND: If I may, I apologize . I wasn 't here for the . . . MR. CHAIRMAN: Okay, I think we can be lenient, but I mean .. .

Tuesday, 24 June, 1986 MRS. G. HAMMOND: . . . I thought maybe that would come under External Agencies at the same time. MR. CHAIRMAN: We could look at it that way, I guess. HON. M. SMITH: Again, I don't mind straying a little far afield but I think it's not too helpful if we go too far. The structure has been under Health. Health is the lead Minister, with the six area di rectors, but there has been a double acco untability to the two departments because of some Community Services functions and some Health functions.

The new structure will have the three regions with all the Health and Community Services workers under them. Those three will report to an executive di rector. We have an Executive Director for Winnipeg, who will report both to Community Services and Health, but will be lodged in Health, and we have an Executive Director, rural, in charge of MDC, who will report, again, to both departments, but wh ose staff year is in Community Services. So, in a sense, we've remo ved the double reporting at the lower end and coordina ted it at the upper end of the organizational structure. MRS. G.

HAMMOND: I think I'm still in Operations. The Agency Relations Branch, is that the group that interfaced with the community groups as far as getting funding was concerned? HON. M. SMITH: If the member has strayed, let me stray and then I hope we can get back on that line. Agency Relations in Community Services used to deal with a great many external agencies, who del ivered a great variety of service. In fact, there was no program responsibil ity, a coordinated program respons ibility at the Community Services end.

Progressively, we're trying to move those agencies out of just a catch-all category called Agency Relations, and move them in under a program respon sibility so we can, in a sense, get advice as to whether we need to incr ease the service in this area, hold it in the line in the other area, or reduce it. it's treating them in a more coordina ted program based way. So there has been a shift in the way, what was a straight grant system to External Agencies, is being handled. Some of them still are in the miscellaneous category but we're trying to move them over to a program area. MRS. G.

HAMMOND: How will the community groups then - who do they go to now to find out about funding, so that there's not a dup lication of services, in other words? HON. M. SMITH: If they access our department, we would determine what program area they're in and send them to that program person. Again, it would depend what service they were deliveri ng. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Is this a similar circums tance happening here as to the four home economists who did the programming for all the field . . . MR. CHAIRMAN: I would suggest the member is a little more than a little astray on that one.

You are now dealing with two other departments. You're dealing with Agriculture and Health. Do you have another question relating at least to this department? HON. M. SMITH: Save it for Larry. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Minister of Health is perfectly prepared to answer that qu estion at his earli est opportunity. MRS. G. HAMMOND: I believe that the Minister, if I may, knows what I'm refer ring to. I'm using it as an example, Mr.

Chairman, for the Minister, so that she would unders tand what I'm talking about as far as community groups, for funding going to the department, that the new structure will be as efficient as the previous structur e has be en, as far as liaisoning with the community groups. HON. M. SMITH: There are 999 varieties of community groups. Some of them fit nic ely into a particular resp onsibility area in a particular department; others don't. Some straddle several respo nsibility areas in one department and some straddle respo nsibility centres in several departments.

Increasingly , we're trying to sort that out but, again, if they come to any of our departments, we will coordinate who should deal with them. We can do that in our Social Resource Committee, or just through direct telephone communication with the relevant department, and we do a lot of that. We do everyt hing we can to set groups on the right path. But they do come in a myriad of shapes, sizes, and mandates. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr.

Chairman, looking at the list of per diems for community residences, it would appear that it is an exception to the rule where there has been any incr ease in the per diem over last year. Can the Minister ind icate whether the per diem rate last year incr eased over 19 84-85? HON. M. SMITH: Ye s, the rate that's listed under the 19 85-86 was phased in towards the end of the year. But the major incr ease for the homes doesn't show up in the straight residence, the per diem and capital. lt shows up in the Special Care and Assistance, and those other support services like respite, crisis intervent ion, and so on.

In the Additional Care and Support, we've moved from just under $1 million to almost $3 million, in that area, so there's quite a range of extra support available. We 've developed levels of care, assess ments to identify the level of care of individuals. That's to ensure that we have sufficient flexibility to meet the extremely varied needs that are out there. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, does the Minister have some other statistics, then, that would show the total amount received by each residence, to be received in 1986-87, as versus the total amount received in 19 85- 86? MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN, J.

McCrae: The Minister of Community Services. 1246

Tuesday, 24 June, 1986 HON. M. SMITH: Yes, it's because we've added the Special Care and Assistance element that it doesn't show in these . It's because they are given on an individual basis. We don' t give a set grant to any residence. We give them a grant based on the indi viduals they have in care and when they came into care . They qualify then for the capital, the per diem , and then the special care and assistance ranges from - just a minute now - $8 per day to $33.56 , so we don't have for you a total amount that has gone to an agency .

I guess we would be able to run those figures up at the end of our fiscal year, but because it's not the basis on which we're funding , we think that these figures are more helpful to you. MR. G. MERCIER : The Minister then is saying that special grants go to the residences for additional care and support, respite services and crisis intervention? HON. M. SMITH: No, it's the first two items that go by way of per diems. The community res idence figure flows on the basis of a capital amount and a per diem . The additional care and support goes as an additional amount ranging on a per diem base, from $8 to $33 .56.

The other services are provided to the system . They 're available on need from a central dispenser of services or a regional dispenser of services. So the residences draw their money from the first two items . MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman , the amount allocated for additional care and support then, that goes to a residence because they have to have additional people on staff to help take care of the people in residence? HON. M. SMITH: Yes, it usually expresses itself in staff. There may be some extra service that they require. If I could give an example ; if you had a Mr.

X and he went to the Altona residence, they would get 2.97 plus 23.63 base rate and then, because Mr. X is assessed at Level 3 need, Altona would get an extra $24 a day for him and that would be arrived at , after looking at an individual, a 24-hour plan of that person 's needs. They may require more help in toileting, dressing, cleaning and so on. MR. G. MERCIER: But the residence would have to hire someone else and pay out that extra $24 per day to help take care of Mr. X; is that not right? HON. M.

SMITH: Yes, in a sense we identify the need of the individual and then we, in a sense, contract with the residence to meet that need . Now the way they do it, of course, requires staff. MR. G. MERCIER: My point is, when you don't raise the per diem from one year to the other, which is the amount required to operate the residence , I don 't really think you can take int o considerati on the money that goes for additional care and support, because that's money that has to be paid out to additional people to help look after the residents of the home.

It's the capital plus the per diem , is it not, that has to be used for the general operations and maintenance of the home? And if you 're not increasing that and if inflation is going up 3- 4- 5 percent a year, and if taxes are going up on the home per year, and the cost of living is going up; then are not your standards in the residences going down or the remuneration to the people oper ating the homes has in fact been reduced? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Minister of Community Services. MR. G. MERCIER: Wait for me to finish, Mr. Chairman. HON. M. SMITH: Oh, I'm sorry . MR. G.

MERCIER: Is not the service in the home going down or the remuneration of the people operating the home going down, in view of inflationary costs? HON. M. SMITH: One of the problems is that we xeroxed a sheet for you at your request . It was a sheet prepared for our use, but we know what we mean by it. The 1985-86 is the total that was given them last year, but it was based on a very ad hoc type of system. This year we are building the funding with three levels.

You don't see any of the third level reflected here, but the capital plus the per diem, plus the care and assistance , in all cases is a significant advance over what they had last year. So there has been a significant increase over what they were funded last year. The final column of figures that you 're looking at didn't include - there was no extra care and assistance grant last year - so in a sense we've introduced a whole new variable type of grant based on need . MR. G.

MERCIER: But again , that additional care and support has to be paid out to extra people who are required to look after the residents of the home . That's already, I thought , been acknowledged by the Minister . HON. M. SMITH: Again, we seem to be having a miscommunication here. There 's a certain number of people in the home and each one may have a different level of need . Now the money that the home gets to meet their needs is based on this three-tier assessment; their mortgage or capital element ; the basic per diem; and the additional, depending on their need.

Now the sum total of all those for the 365 days, or however many days they are there, is the budget that that home has to operate on and within that, they must have a pattern of staffing that can meet the needs of the people . Now these figures haven't been pulled out of the air. They 've been worked out by working with the homes and knowing what it does cost to provide adequate staff . There is a base level. If they were all Level I, they could function .

If ther e was no special needs , they could function with whatever the variable capital is because the houses are at different stages of paying off the mortgag e, plus the per diem, and then we add for the higher levels of care . MR. G. MERCIER: Would the Min ister not acknowledge though that if you don 't increase the basic per diem from one year to the next and you have inflation of 3- 4- 5 perce nt . . HON. M. SMITH: But we have increased it. What makes you think we haven't? 1247

Tuesday, 24 June, 1986 MR. G. MERCIER: . .. the money available is lesser because of inflation and something has to suffer? The costs are going up but the basic per diem is not going up. HON. M. SMITH: The member is making a inference that he has in front of him a per diem that has stayed the same for two years, and that therefore there's been no increase. We are looking at the same sheet, I take it? The final column is what was being paid then, but it wasn't being paid on the same basis last year. They only had that amount.

We've shifted this year to the three-tier system and everyone has been getting quite an increase, so in a sense, you don't have available any per diem from last year by which to compare, or total amount per person. As I say, the final figure is not help ful in this discussio n because it's on a different base and it doesn 't include that variable care and assistance amount. MR. G. MERCIER: Well, would this clarify it? For example, that Altona residence, the first one, 1985-86, it says they received 26.60.

This year they received 26.60 plus, you say, additional monies for additiona l care and support and they weren't receiving any of those monies in 1985-86? HON. M. SMITH: That's correct. MR. G. MERCIER: Maybe next year it would be helpful if there were some sort of comparison between '86, '87 and maybe if you even projected '87 , '88 or something like that, that would indicate what the increase is in total dollars, I guess, for each home . HON. M. SMITH: Yes, our department is scheduled for the fuller data release for Estimates next year. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for River East. MRS. B. MITCHELSON: Thank you, Mr.

Chairman . I just want some clarification on these sheets . I don't know, do you pronounce it DASH or is it D-A-S-C-H , whatever . The sheet we received tonight indicating the community residences up to April 1 has DASCH Incorporated, 353 Carpathia, 54 Picardy Place , with six beds . Those aren't the same addresses. Where are the six beds? Are they at 353 Carpathia or 54 Picardy Place? HON. M. SMITH: That organization has incorporated two facilities that operate in a sense , their books and all operate as one . One of them is in fact a one-bed facility and the other , five ; but it's incorporated jointly. MRS. B.

MITCHELSON: A one-bed facility? HON. M. SMITH: One is a supervised apartment and the other is a home . MRS. B. MITCHELSON: One is a . . . HON. M. SMITH: Supervised apartment. My Prog ram Director, Dr. Larry Hardy, will try to get the specifics on that, but that's the pattern we think is there. MRS. B. MITCHELSON: So you 're telling me then that there 's a one-bed unit. Where? At which address? HON. M. SMITH: We'll have the detail in a moment. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for River East , do you have any further questions while we're holdin g on this item? MRS. B.

MITCHELSON: I don 't think I can pursue my line of questioning , Mr. Chairman , until I have the information . MR. CHAIRMAN: Any other questions on 3.(dX4)? Any other honourab le members have any questions on 3.(dX4)? The Member for Rhinela nd. MR. A. BROWN: Thank you. Under this sheet that we recei ved, the Paym ents to External Agencies , there is no place over here wher e I can identify any agency that would be dealing fairly well specifically with the Native population . Can the Mini ster tell me whic h one of these agencies would be dealing with the Natives? HON. M. SMITH: We don't operate on the reserves.

There aren't mental retardation service s on the reserves . Off-reserve services are not segregated by Native groups . If you 're thinking of Native Child and Fami ly - sorry , Native Metis Friendship Centres , they will appear - they 're not in this vote ; they appear in anothe r area, in the General Purpose Grants , in 3.(e). MR. CHAIRMAN: Will the Minister advise the Member for River East? The Member for Rhineland. MR. A.

BROWN: In the meantime , while we're waiting for the Member for River East, I notice that the Independent Living Resourc e Centre and the Manitoba League for the Physically Handicapped received no grants last year. Is this the first time that they are recei ving grants under this appropriation? HON. M. SMITH: Both of them did receive grants mid ­ year. I don 't know how active they were for last year's budget , so they did in fact receive a gran t last year and the amount this year is the same amount. MR. CHAIRMAN : Perhaps we should defer 3.(dX4) until the Member for River East gets back and move on to 3.(

e) General Purpos e Grants . It seems the Member for Rhineland had some que stio ns in that area. The Member for Rhinel and. MR. A. BROWN: Thank you . In 1985, under this particular app ropriation , we had $1,381,0 00 .00. This year we have a considerable reduction , $1 ,136,800 - abo ut a $200 ,000 reduc tion . Are we cuttin g back on the gra nts to the various agencies or what is the situation ? HON. M. SMITH : Again, the figures that the member is using are not the adjusted figures. 1248

Tuesday, 24 June, 1986 At the moment I don't have the recon ciliation but the figures that we're dealing with of $1 ,093,400 for'85- '86 has been incr eased to $1, 136,800 for this year. MR. A. BROWN: By the same token, if we go back a couple of years and so on, there has been a decrease - (I nterjection) - in the grant ... HON. M. SMITH: I think this raises the issue that I spoke to before. We've had these general purpose grants.

Increasingly , we've been trying to take programs and mo ve them to wher e there is a program responsibility so that we get an assessment of what role they play in the total scheme of programs. Again, you're referring to adjustments that were made prior to'85-86 and I think they've been dealt with in earlier years. What I can give you is the year-over-year change this year and in fact there's an incr ease. I suspect what's happened is that as the grants have gotten moved over to another program area that there's not been any reduction. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for River Heights. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: Thank you, Mr.

Chairman. If one compa res the figur es of'85-86 to '86-87, there is only one group, the Ind ian Metis Friendship Centre, which has in fact received a grant incr ease. That's only been at 4.3 percent. Can the Minister give us an overall rationale or basis for why, in a budget where there are large increases, that these citizen advisory groups and whatever have not been getting any additional funding from the government. HON. M. SMITH: The only service grant in this grouping is the Indi an Metis Friendship Centre. They have received an increase of $43,200.00. The others are where we give a sort of basic grant.

They have many funders and activities. it's more of a sustaining grant rather than a service grant. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: How do these organizations go about applying for grants? Do they just ask for the grant that they got the previous year or do they lay out a strategy and then ask for additional funding which may or may not be granted? HON. M. SMITH: That varies. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: Let's take a specific route, then, the Brandon Citizen Advoc acy. Can the Minister tell me what it is they do and why it is that they didn't feel the need for any additional funding? HON. M.

SMITH: Groups such as this tend to be small volunteer organizations. In this case, they recruit, train and match volunt eers to assist primarily mentally hand icapped people in day-to-day living. lt serves the area of Brandon and surrounding districts. Our money would probably help them a little with secretarial help or a small office but most of the service is done by volunteers. We feel, it's, perhaps not the highest priority service in the total continuum of services, nonetheless for a small sustaining grant like this there's quite a multiplication of enrichment available to citizens.

We belie ve in community input and involvement so these are really just small sustaining grants to assist them. Some of them do approach us trying to get expansion but it's been our determ ination that, in this period of tight monies, our first priority is to the service development for which we're directly respon sible. With these groups we feel that the same sustaining grant is reas onable. MRS. S. CARST AIRS: I gather from the Minister's comments that most of these groups that fall under this are in fact heavily involved in volun tee ris m .

Therefore I would wonder how they can continue that volunteer work without additional funding in that, if Brandon Citizen Advocacy is in fact helping to adjust or work with the mentally handicapped, I would think that their role would become more significant as we welcome more mentally handicapped back into the community. HON. M. SMITH: it's not the only group that's involved in volunteers. In some cases, these are groups that have popped up in the past and managed to get public funding.

Our policy has been not to - so far anyway - has been not to drop them but nor to give them any feeling that they are permanent fixtures. The groups that I've already named in the volunteer sector have been, in a sense, providing most of the volunteers for the Welcome Home Program. it's an interesting service and probably in the fulln ess of time it may command more public funds but it's one of those that's been a lower priority for us this year. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: My final question: does anyone actually evaluate the strength of the services offered by these particular groups? HON. M.

SMITH: There is some but our reason for shifting most of these over to program areas is so that evaluation can be done more in context of other similar programs. This is, I gue ss, the remainder of our miscellaneous list. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.(e) - pass. We 'll return to 3.(dX4) -the Minister of Community Services. HON. M. SMITH: I have the information on the DASCH dual residence. DASCH proposed a five-bed fa cility on Carpathia with a satellite or annex bed at Picardy (it's an apartment) for a client with special needs.

The funding provided by government is within existing rates with additional costs for a proctor at the apartment being covered by DASCH through other resources. MRS. B. MITCHELSON: Ye s, Mr. Chairman, so you're telling me then, that the DASCH facility at 353 Carpa thia then has approval for five beds and the one bed is at 54 Picardy Place which is an apartment? The per diems then, are what - the same for that one bed? HON. M. SMITH: We're provi ding the same per diem. The DASCH service people wanted a proctor for the 1249

Tuesday, 24 June, 1986 person at the apartment but th ey 're paying that themselves . A lot of these groups do have independent means of raising some funds. It doesn't come under our program so they were willing to pay it and we were willing to pick up the basic per diem. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.(d)(4)-pass . Resolution 91 : Resolved that there be gran ted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $55,876,900 for Community Services for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 1987 - pass . Item 4. Child and Family Services , Resolution 32, 4.(

a) Administration - the Member for Rhineland . MR. A. BROWN: I wonder if the Minister would be willing to call it ten o'clock. This is a big item that we're starting off on and we're not going to get very far tonight anyhow . MR. CHAIRMAN: Well, if it is agreeable to the committee, we will call it ten o'clock. Is it agreed? (Agreed) Committee rise. SUPPLY - AGRICULTURE MR. CHAIRMAN, C. Santos: Committee , please come to order. This

section of the Committee of Supply has been considering the Estimates of the Department of Agriculture . We are now on Item 6.

(1) Agricultural Research Grant (University of Manitoba) - the Member for Ste . Rose. MR. G. CUMMINGS: When we were discussing this earlier, I'm not sure that I understood what the relationship is with the funds in the federal-provincia l agreements. Are some of those funds directe d directly into the university programs , or are the people from the university hired into the programs off campus? Do the funds go directly into the university? That's basically my question . HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman , t here would be, I guess, a bit of both.

In terms of research projects, there would be some at the university, or at Glenlea Research Station. There would be projects likely using some of the funding there, as well, of course, under the Agri­ Food, there would be the crop adaptation trials, which would be all around the Province of Manitoba. In terms of funding, there would be monies both used on the university , as well as in cooperation with the university for work outside, off the campus. MR. G.

CUMMINGS: The reason that I asked the question was because of the reference that you made to the fact that although the grants had not change d significantly that there was more money going towards research in connection with the university . The programs that are done , or are operated at the university, can you give me some feeling for the percentage of that money that would be directly spent in conjunction with the university? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr.

Chairman , really, I guess in terms of the amount of money that is provided to the university, and I think maybe I didn't understand the honourable member 's question, but there are really two sets of programs .

There is the regular grant, as the member points out, that has been increased modestly over the last number of years, that we are dealin g w ith now, and there are the projects under Agri-Food which would be almost matching , or almost close to matching, of what the provincial grant is in terms of specific project s with the university, so there are really two sets of programming that funnels money into research at the university .

Some of the projects, in fact, it's possible that some of the work being done und er regular university research of which it's possible that direct provincial monies would have gone ther e could be supplemented by Agri-Food monies as well, because while we have some specific projects that we, in fact , fund in general terms we try in our meetings with the university, correlate their research with our own policy objectives and areas that we fee l are a prior ity for the province in a gen eral sense and try and work that way in their whole program rather than say we'll fund th is, no we won't fund that.

We try and have the element of research in basic research through the university complement some of the thr usts that we wish to make in technology and agriculture information. MR. G. CUMMINGS: I apologi ze for not being too knowledgable in this area. My question is regardin g who would make the decision on these Agri-Food Agreement funds? Is this the executive policy group that you've referred to previously that would be meeting with the people and helping to arrive this at a decision regarding these expenditures? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr.

Chairman, the actual review of the projects submitted would be the Agri-Food Approving Committee which would be a federal­ provincial committee that would deal with the projects with final approval of either the province or the Federal Governmen t in terms of the actual expenditure of funding . If the province is funding that aspect of the agreement, the province would give the approval , but the coordinating committee is a federal-provincial committee that does the recommendations on all the projects . It's not specifically the executi ve group of the department.

There 's a federal-provincial committee that then comes to the executive group and if the province pays, then it's sent to Treasury Board of the province and the province approves the funding. If it is a federal project, that request from the committee goes to the Federal Treasury Board, they approve it and make the payment. MR. CHAIRMAN: 6.(f) - the Member for Virden . MR. G. FINDLAY: Where does MASCC fit into this process? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, the role of MASCC rea lly is in an advisory capacity in terms of the overall needs of research .

There 's no doubt th at the implem entation committee of the federal-provinci al committee and in the liaison with the university and some of the projects, the ir recommendations would be some of those that would be considered, or all of those 1250

Tuesday, 24 June, 1986 would be considered, in light of the overall needs of research. It's very possible that suggestions made by MASCC , in the advisory capacity, would in fact and those recommendations could have been embodi ed in some of the specific funding that ends up at the university or some of the projects that the province may be undertaking in field trials or whatever areas of technology transfer; that's a possibility. But they 're not involved in the implementation side ; they 're involved in the side of providing ideas, thrusts and advice . MR. G.

FINDLAY: Certainly I believe that one of the ways to work our way out of the economic crisis in agriculture is through research directed in the proper directions . I guess in that connection I would like to know what kind of research fund request is coming from the Faculty of Agriculture . I'm sure it was higher than the $875,500.00 . What are they really looking for and how do you arrive at this figure? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman , there 's no doubt that in terms of requests, they would be requesting in the $1 million range that would come in.

Of course , when asking for funding you would raise the amount to make sure that you would at least get the amount that you received in the previous year. There are, I would say, a fairly generous practice of building in their ongoing expenses within the funding formula for research, as to their ongoing costs , so in terms of their request they're receiving fairly close to what their requests were in terms of the provincial support. But there's no doubt that we are but one source of funds . I don't know what their total research money would be and funding would be from other sources.

There is the other aspect of individual professors , as I understand it, doing direct and personal research for other groups and that becomes another source of revenue, not for the university , but I think professional salary increase for those professors who are prepared to undertake additional research. There may be a chargeback if there's a use of university facilities and support help from the university . I don't know what relationships are there, but those would be in addition to work that is funded publicly . MR. G.

FINDLAY: I guess you said you didn 't know , but maybe your staff knows, just how have the universities been able to maintain their other sources of funds from the various Federal Government sources and the Western Grains Research Foundation , which they can also apply to now for funds . I guess another question that often comes up with research professors at the university is you see them gett ing hired every once in a while to do consultative work here and there. Are they on a double taxpayers' payroll in those situations? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr.

Chairman, I am advised that the university does make use of the Western Crops research funding and canola funding and , as well, funding under NSERC, the Natural Sciences and Engineering Research Council, and the monies that we provide, in terms of the stability of monies on an ongoing basis, does assist them in trying to lever other sources of money and continuum of projects so that they can in fact combine their resources and add to the research programs .

Now the question that the member raises , I'm not certain that I can specifically answer that question, but I believe that individual research projects conducted by professors of whatever branch of the university , unless they were specifically working on behalf of the university, most research projects would be individual research projects conducted by those professors and that would be income that in fact would supplement their income as professors.

One other bit of information that I shou ld share with my honourable friend is that there is also addit ion al monies going to the universities from Ag-Canada in addition to the regular research monies that go to the research stations through the Agri-Food Agreement presently . Ag-Canada does support with research funds to the university as well as the Province of Manitoba. So there is the Ag-Canada money ; I'm not sure that we have the information as to the specif ics of some of their funding.

The most recent one that might be of interest to honourable members is the Saul Sinclair Management Foundation of which we had a number of discussions over a year ago within our own department as to the whole development process of computer software to be applied for use within agriculture , and the need of having some type of foundation that some of the rese arch work , and in fact some of the developmental work which may have been don e even within the province could b e used by this foundation as a storehouse of knowledge and information for use within the agricultural industry.

This foundation is certainly an offshoot from those discussions that we've been having within our own department. Maybe it's been longe r than that ; maybe it 's several years already. MR. G. FINDLAY: Just to talk about that computer software first. When I look at the agricultural indu stry, there are some more basic problems out there than developing software, because I'm not just clear in my own mind how the agricultural community, at the farm level, is going to utilize that information in the short term.

New varieties in crop that are rust resistant, as an example, might in my mind have a lot mor e precedence to developing computer software at this point in time. 1251 I don 't dispute the fact that there is some value to your department for the development of that, but is it going to be of imminent value to the farm comm unity at this point in time? I guess whil e I'm up here, I'll ask one other area.

When the Government of Manitoba is putting $850 ,500 into the university and you wan t a study done for the Milk Board, or some analysis done , do you alwa ys pay additional per diems for that work , or is it considered part of the effort you expect in return for the money put in? That's where I'm getting at the double salary business. HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman , any policy studies that we would want to have undertaken, any reviews that we would want to have undertaken that would be contracted out in addition to the research monies that we would have.

Tuesday, 24 June, 1986 I might add, in the comments that the honourable member made, as an example, that maybe priorities should be channeled in another direction, the whole area, for example, of software and the use of this institution, for example, some of the development undertaken in farm financial management programs of basically shortcutting, and I would call it shortcutting the long and tedious process of doing cash flows and analysis of financial analysis in various farming operations, whether it be livestock or crops or, in fact , cash flows in putting in a particular crop so they can be accessed and calculations be made and some projections made in a fairly efficient manner, with a number of options provided to farmers , which would normally take someone in the field several hours to maybe do one projection at a minimum.

It could be done within five to ten minutes if there was the type of software computer that staff could access with their mini-computers and assist many more farmers in the one day in the whole area of farm financial management , as one example .

That application is in my mind very current with today's needs in dealing with a greater number of farmers who need that kind of advice, need to sharpen their pencil to get through the difficult times and be able to have some options, if there are any options , of making final decisions on crop plantations or whatever in terms of the projections that they might input based on certain cost factors and inputs that they wish to put in with the crop , and that'll give them some idea in a very efficient and quick manner.

The question, of course, in the longer term is how quick can the turnaround time be and how many farmers can, in fact, access that information , but clearly of direct application to their today needs more than ever. MR. G. FINDLAY : I've had a little bit of experience in making those comparisons with a computer and you punch in various figures and get an analysis of what this will do to the cash flow and that will do the cash flow. My question is your farm management specialists are the ones that probably should have this at their disposal.

Do they have a computer that's mobile that they can go from farmer to farmer, or does the farmer have to come to say Brandon or Winnipeg or wherever to utilize the resource that's available to the farm management specialists? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, yes, we have one or two that are portable for teaching purposes in our farm business groups, so that people attending the Business Group Program would, in fact, be aware of what services are offered, but there is a computer network now in every ag rep office in the province , and so the service would be provided at the office, but we would not going out on farm.

Certainly , anyone comin g into the office and the ag rep could, in fact, sche dule a numbe r of appointments in any given day and say all right let's do 3 or 4 where normally he may have to spend half a day with one individual, he might be able to handle 3 or 4 people and assist them in wha tever endeavours of projections they may want to look at as an example. MR. G. FINDLAY: Are these resources available to MACC staff and all government staff in those ag rep offices? HON. B.

URUSKI: The equipment that we have primarily is, of course, used by farm management specialists and our ag reps, but where our offices would be compatible in terms of the same building, I am certain that whether it be MACC or our engineering

section and there would be programs within our computer bank or software programs that would be available for their use, we would share that equipment. As an ongoing analysis, I'm not aware of sort of any direct programming that MACC has of its own, but they certainly could use some of the prog ramm ing that we've got and I may be hesitant in saying yes that goes on. It really depends on the busy-ness of the office and the use in the office and the liaison and the proximity of both offices and staff in the same area. MR. G.

FINDLAY: I would gather that the drive behind setting up the Farm Management Institute is to serve that need tha t exists through the specialist , through MACC. I'd like to know how much financial contribut ion the province has in that institute in terms of initial outl ay and ongoing costs that we're committed to? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman , the initi al start -up grant was federally funded in terms of overh ead. These discussions took place between our officials and federal officials , I guess , over a year or more in terms of discussing the concept .

We will be funding ongoing and specific projects in terms of programm ing development that will be occurring there . We have not funded any project directly out of the centre at this point in time . MR. G. FINDLAY: Is the intention in the future, then, that the funding for it come out of the university allocation? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, it's possible that somewhere down the road there might be some minor use of the funding out of the basic grant , but it 's not generally envisaged that there would be.

What we see happening is the province and the Federal Government still doin g some basic core funding in the initial stages and doing some developmental work on specific projects coming forward. Out of that , we also see the possibility of private funding coming in and making use of some of the developmental work that is possibl e by this centre . So it would be a combination of both private and public as the centr e gets mobile in terms of some of the developmen tal costs that would be needed in terms of programm ing and the services they cou ld provide to both the public sector and the private sector. MR. G.

FINDLAY: How do they intend to attract private investment , and in the event that they don 't attract private inves tme nt , are we committed to any degree of funding in the next few years? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, there has been already a lot of interest from the private sector. We are not committed to any ongoing funding of the cent re. I think it 's understood from Day One that it is, what I would say a developmental centre, and we would not go full blown and grandiose into a large overhead 1252

Tuesday, 24 June, 1986 operation in its initial stages. There would be a basic core funding, some starting-off support and working through some assessment of needs and possibil ities for both the Provincial and Federal Governments, and some ongoing seed money in a di rect application to programming that might be developed as well as, in the process, development and research work as to how programming could be devel ope d that could be appl icable to, say, gr ain companies and machine compa nies and the like that could work out of this institute. MR. G.

FIND LAY: I guess another area that I have concern with is the number of demonstrations that are put on around the province. There's nothing wrong with doing it and I believe it serves a valuable need for the farm community . But when you go into a farmer's yard and set up a feed lot, is he benefiting from that? Who's paying the cost? Is there a contract signed where he knows that you'll be there for three or four years. And when you leave there, does he have a benefit because you were there just in terms of capital that you put into there and then it's just given to him?

I guess the next question that flows from that is, is there any opportunity for different producers to bid for that opportunity, or is it just a select site? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, I think pretty well all the project sites that have been and are being used for demonstrations would have been agreed to by not the individual farmer but through a group whether it be a grasslands society or others. lt would be the group who would, in fact, recommend the choice of the site within their region as to where the site would be chosen.

From the total amount of dolla rs that are put into a project, I would say that there is very little, if any, direct benefit to the producer who indicates or who agrees to use his farm site as the base site for the demonstration project. The amount of money that is put into, let's say it would be capital works, most capital works that are cons tructed - let's say it's in the cattle site - the cost would be those kinds of costs which any producer who would be in the business would normally have.

There would not be any grandiose design. lt would be functional construction that any farmer could, in fact, afford and would normally be put up anyway.

In exchange for the time that we use his facilities and the hassle of groups and people and meetings and every thing that goes along over the three or four year period that the project is there, I would say we'd pretty well break even in terms of how much wear and tear we use on the individual's yard and site and have people there through demonst ration projects and the like, as the money that we, in fact, put in that is left behind after the project is completed.

So I would say that from the projects that I've seen, whether it be under Agri-Food or Agri-Man, I would say that the participating farmers, while they gain from the di rect experience and not having to drive very far in terms of the project and sightseeing, they certainly put out an awful lot in terms of their family, of having people come to their yards, using their facilities and basically the hassle with all the information gathering and people there on the project, so there would be, I 1253 would say very little, if any, personal gain from those projects. MR. G.

FIN DLAY: The other day in the Hous e you announced the appointment or the hiring of Pat Mooney in the area of plant breeders' rights, and I would like to have you give us some idea of why he's hired, what his objective is, and where the funds for that hiring appear in Est imates. HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, just one comment on the previous comments dealing with the demonstration projects. We have not had farmers saying I want the project on my yard.

That will give you some indication as to whether or not there's such a great bonus from these demons tration programs that people think, gee, there's lots to gain from them. We have not had sort of a rush through the door from all the groups and more than one farmer competing about the demonstration sites. That has not been a dif ficulty at all in the admin istration of the project. Dealing with the contract that we have rec ently signed with Pat Mooney, the funding would come out of the Policy Studies, under 1. (b)(3), where the funding would have come out.

I think it's a $20,000 contract for the next six months, whereby Mr. Mooney will be assisting in putting together and doing analysis work for us on the proposed federal legislation, as well as meeting with farm groups, consumer groups and community groups around the province to raise the issue and the implications of the issue and the impact of it on the farm community and also the consumer commu nity, as to what the possible outcome of those areas, and of course assist the province in finalizing its position to the Federal Government whenever the legislation is in fact to be presented to the House of Commons.

MR. G. FIND LAY: Was the position advertised? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, was the position . MR. CHAIRMAN: Was the position advertised? HON. B. URUSKI: No, Mr. Chairman, the position, as to position, was not advertised . In fact, during the winter months, during my meetings throughout the Province of Manitoba, at a meeting in Brandon I had occasion to, and the province did recognize Pat Mooney as a lead ing spo kesperson out of Ma nitoba and his dedication to the world of seeds, the world of seed development and his work in international organizations. The Province of Manitoba recognized Mr.

Mooney by presenting him with the Order of the Buffalo for his outstanding work in those areas. In fact, during the meeting that I had, I asked Mr. Mooney whether he would be interested, seeing that his background was in the world and the field of genetics and genetic breeding and the research work that he had done around the world, I asked him whether he would be interested in doing some work for the province in research, in view of the impending legislation federally.

He indi cated to me that he would be and had done a fair bit of work on plant patent legislation and its functions in other countries and indicated he would be interested.

Tuesday, 24 June, 1986 As a result of that conversa tion, Mr. Chairman, I asked my staff to follow up with him, in a way that we could, in fact, benefit from his knowledge and some of his previous research and have some dir ect application to the Canadian scene and if he would be prepared to do some work. As a result of those dis cussions, we recently signed a contract with him over the next six months. MR. G. FIN DLAY: In my mind, the message that he will purvey is very well known.

I don't think you have any doubt about which dir ection he's going to push and I don't have any doubt about which direction he's going to push. When you went around and analyzed the federal Tripartite Beef Plan, you had an un biased individual presenting both sides of the argument, which I thought was fair , and I don't belie ve that principle is even being applied in this case.

I believe there were many people at the Univ ersity of Manitoba who could have done a study or an analysis to analyze the federal legislation as to how it would impact not only in Manitoba, but all of Canada, or whatever jurisdiction he wanted to have the study done on. So I don't see why his qual ifications are any better than the people who are presently available through the people you're funding through the University of Manitoba research grant. A MEMBER: He's a world expert. MR. G. FINDLA Y: Okay, if he's a world expert, is he a member of the Manitoba Institute of Agrologists?

Is he a licensed agrologist? - (I nterject ion) - lt matters to me because we have

an act that went through this Legislature not very long ago to determine if a licensed agrologist, or anybody practising agrology in this province can be licenced, and I want to know if this member is? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, I think Mr. Mooney's credentials have from time to time been debated at the University of Brandon, being that he has been a lecturer at the university and there's no doubt that certain professi onals in the field may not be that happy because the individual may not be a graduate or a graduate of agrol ogy. But there is no doubt in my mind, Mr .

Ch airman, of the wealth of kno wledge and experience that this individual holds in the world of plant breed ing, in the world of genetics, in the world of concentration of corporate power in the whole question of plant and genetic material, and he's widely renowned, Mr. Chairman. Whether or not an individual has a title that is recognized by our own universities, I quite frankly have not taken that as being the only credential that one should have, in terms of determ ining whether one is capable or not.

His knowledge, I think, speaks for itself and his recog nition worldwide speaks for itself, by other countries. Mr. Chairman, the university has done a study on plant breeders' rights, the University of Manitoba, and I guess - as best as one can interpret - they come on both . . . Mr. Chairman, they do indicate, as part of their synopsis, that an in-depth study of the seed ind ustry is needed, both to determine the role played and the ma rket shar e control led by some of the la rger corporation which have recently entered the seed ind ustry. Part of the work that Mr.

Mooney will be doing will be precisely tha t kind of work which has been recommended by the univ ersity. His knowledge of the international firms in the seed and chemical industry and the combination of their impact on both the devel opm ent of seeds and the dev elopment of chemicals worldwide, whether it be any of the multinational corporations, I don't think there is anyone in the Province of Manitoba who is more qualified in this area than Mr. Moone y. MR. G.

FINDLA Y: If you already have a report in front of you, why do we need to spend $20,000 to get another statement of policy support for the direction you want to go? The job for an academic is to be un biased and give an analysis from both sides, as your member of your department did on the tripartite plan. HON. B. URUSKI: Since when? MR. G. FIND LAY: Neil Hamilton, as we talked about earli er, did a very unbia sed analysis of a plan put in by the Federal Government.

Further to that, we talked about a freight rate study that should be done for the Province of Manitoba and you won't acknowledge there's any need to do it. it's a Wheat Board policy that's coming into play. If it applies on one hand, it applies on the other. Let's be consistent with our policies from one issue to the next. What is wrong with his qualifications? - (I nterjection) - You're calling them biased. - (I nterjec tion) - I ask the member again, is he a licensed agrologist in the Province of Manitoba?

Has he held consultations with the Canadian Seed Growers' Association to determine if he's an accep table indi vidual to analyze this industry? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, I want to tell my honour able friends that ther e is a fundamental dif ference between doing an analysis of an already set out program by the Federal Government which was not reported by the media and putting it out. In fact, it should have been the Federal Government who had gone out to promote their own program and have producers analy ze it and then tell them themselves. They didn't do it, Mr. Chairman, so we had to do it for them.

Now they're shaking their heads, why did n't they do it? Why didn't they go out and tell producers this is what the tripartite program is all about? This is the program we would want you to join, precisely what they wanted to do. In the area of plant breeders' rights, we know that the Federal Gover nment, whether it's Lib eral or Conservative, have taken a fairly - (I nterjec tion) - well partisan - they've taken their policy positions very clear to both parties, that they're going to . MR. G. FIN DLAY: Maybe they're right. HON. B. URUSKI: . . . they're going to proceed with Plant Breeders' Rights legislation.

Mr. Chairman, the Member for Virden says, "Ma ybe they're right." Mr. 1254

Tuesday, 24 June, 1986 Chairman, I accept their position and they've had four years of public outpouring from their government saying why they are right. Mr. Chairman, I want to examine those statements and that's why we have hired Mr. Mooney to examine those statements which have been made by two admin istrations - one Liberal, one Conservative - in support of that legislation and they've been out there for four years, because that legislation has been on the books and has been before Parliament on a number of occasions. They're now coming up with it again, Mr. Chairman.

No one in this country has really said, "Let's look at it unb iased. Let's take the other side of the question," because they've had one side of the question put forward for four years now. Let's take the other side of the question and let's examine it and let's examine who the actors are in the ind ustry, who the commercial players are in the ind ustry, who stands to gain. Mr. Chairman, that's the fundamental question. We are debating that very question now in the whole chemical ind ustry, Mr. Chairman, as to who wants the protection and why.

The members agreed today when we were debating the issue of produc t specific registration and the hundr eds of millions of dollars that have been siphoned off from the farmers of this country and their request for a review committee dealing with farm input costs. The implications on the farm communi ty, in terms of chemicals, is just as great from the issue of plant patent rights and the cost of food, not only cost of seed to farmers, but it will impact on the cost of food and the type of food that consumers will eat in the future.

Let's have that side of that question examined and see what these implications are. That's worse. In fact, Mr. Chairman, I said it was four years, but actually it's now going to be six years - in fact right now it's six years when that bill was first introduc ed in the House of Commons - they have had six years of promoting their legislation and saying it's good. Mr. Chairman, because Chrysler or Ford or General Motors says that it's good or whether it's the Gene Wheland of the Lib erals or John Wise of the Conservatives says it's good, I don't have to accept that it's good, Mr. Chairman.

I don't intend to accept that, Mr. Chairman. So we intend to clearly examine those issues and the implications on the farm commun ity. The seed growers will be spoken to, Mr. Chairman, and in fact the seed growers - I want to say - I believe that they have been conspicuously silent on this one major issue. They have been conspicuously silent and not wanting to take a position on this issue, Mr. Chairman, and maybe they have some reasons to be so. But we will speak to as many groups as we can and we will analyze the information and try and present the implications of it.

I don't want to say that the information will in fact be unbiased, because anyone you undertake to do research for you has his or her opinion. it's as if, Mr. Chairman, I would hire John McCallum, the Director of Busi ness Admin istration at the univ ersity, to give advice to an NDP government, when he's been the Conservative adviser for years in economic policy. Mr. Chairman, he has his own views. So, Mr. Chairman, I don't want the Member for Virden saying, is he unbiased because he happens to be an academic at the univ ersity . I say balo ney! Every academic has his own biases, Mr. Chairman.

SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. G. FIND LAY: Let him speak if he kn ows so much about it. MR. CHAIRMAN: 6.(f) - the Member for lnkster wants to speak? MR. D. SCOTT: Sure, you bet I want to speak. Mr. Chairman, I find it quite interesting that the members opposite are qu es tioning the eligi bil ity and the qualifications of one Pat Mooney to do the studies for the Province of Ma nitoba, in the definement of Manitoba's position for the Government of Canada's Pla nt Breeders' Rights Bill and legisl ation.

This gentleman is unfortunately poorly recognized in his own home province, but he's recognized worldwide and received an award last year in Stockholm, which is comparable - (I nterjection) - You can pick it up? We ll, why didn't you pick it up? Why didn't you pick up an award from that organization?

From what I can understand, what I learned of the organization last year that is present ing it, it is not that much different except it's much less remunerative, but in the scientific community it is recognized on the same parallel with the Nobel prize. lt is a very, very highly - (In terjection) - and members opposite say, "Oh, come on." I don't why because a person that is self­ ed ucated to a very large extent, has risen himself from a rural Manitoba community to be in a class of his own in plant breeders' rights, worldwide - (I nterjec tion)­ yeah, worldwide and the memb ers opposite laugh - when this person - (In terjection) - Ye s, he's a self­ made man.

He's a very good teacher, somewha t a little bit dif ferent than some other people here who hav en't necessarily had good teachers and are certainly not self-made men. But he was repres enting, I would suggest, the interest of the ordinary citizen, not only of this province but of the world, to preserve a genetic feedstock from which all the varieties that we now grow, came from. A MEMBER: Do you believe that? MR. D. SCOTT: Do I believe that? You're darn right I believe that. How many different grains and whatnot started off as the original species, from which all the varieties we now have derived from?

How many varieties have we derived over the past 60, 70 years, that have ended up being susceptible to some dis ease that comes along and even with those resistances, where did they get the resistances from? Did they go out and buy the resistance? No, they bred those resistances from the original feedstocks and going back to get some of the characteristics that were in the original feedstocks, otherwise they wouldn't have had those original grains to even start with, because they would have been wiped out themselves, they were all susceptible to a common rust or various types of diseases.

You had, in every species, not only of plant and animal, characteristics built into those, so that some of the species at least will survive all different conditions. I 1255

Tuesday, 24 June, 1986 think Mr. Mooney has shown very clearly in the work that he has done and the international recognition he's received for it, that it is in our interest not to give up the licensing of any particular variety to a particular company so that they can design a plant to grow in tune with the chemicals, or whateve r that they want to offer, for the highest yield of a particular variety .

So if you want to buy their seed, you then have to buy their chemicals to go along with their seed, and if something happens to that and you get yourse lf growing all of one variety - we've even got some potato producers here - how many varieties of potatoes are you growing? Are you growing one variety or are you growing two or three varieties? Are you growing, as I heard not too long ago, if I remembe r - {Interjection) - No, Mr. Chairman, a person has 30 minutes to address here and I don't intend to take as near 30 minutes, but you're not going to cut me off in this debate. Excuse me.

There's a gentleman down near Windsor, Ontar io which is one of the primary producers - because of climatic conditions - of a great variety of vegetables and there is one individual there in particular who still grows - the number of varieties astonished me when I heard it but it was in the dozens of varieties of tubers - so that at no time is his crop wiped out. He is always guaranteed a certain yield on his crop because he has various resistances brought in because of all the different varieties that he grows .

Now they may not all be your perfect potatoes for making trench fries out of, so he covers himself with reds, he covers himself with othe r varieties as well. MR. G. FINDLAY: On a point of order , we're here to debate the Estimates of Agriculture not get a speech about the holier than Thou, somebody he doesn't even know about. MR. D. SCOTT: That unfortunately, Mr. Chairman, is the idea and the attitude of too damn many academics in the agricultural field.

That is why we have the United States, 20 some different states in the U.S. that now have contaminated groundwaters from nitrate poisoning because of the practices that the farmers have been told year-in and year-out to pour more fertilizers onto the land. They've now got . . . MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please, order please. A point of order being raised. What is the point of order? MR. G. FINDLAY: . . . the Minister of Agriculture - is he now the Minister of Agriculture? MR. CHAIRMAN: -{Interjection) - That is not a point of order . The Member for Inkster. MR. D. SCOTT: On the same point of order . MR.

CHAIRMAN: There is no point of order! MR. D. SCOTT: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. How much R and D in this country are you going to preserve with going ahead with a blind acceptance of the federal initiative on plant breeders' rights, how much R and D is there taking place in Canada and who's done the R and D in Canada? How much has been done by done by Agriculture Canada? How much has been done by the various provinces and universities? How much has been done - {Interjection) - no, there's been an awful lot of it done by universit ies. I have to count on my own members from time to time, too.

But how much has been done by the private sector? How much has been done by Shell? How much has been done by your agro-chemical industries in this country? I would suggest that a small fraction of the amoun t of work that is developed and given us our varieties that have been so successful today, have been done by them. The bulk of it has been done by government­ assisted and government-appointed researchers. That hasn't been done for licensing purposes alone.

It hasn 't been done singly with the initiative and with the desire to try and design a species of a variety so that your growers have to come to you to buy that particular seed. It has been done for the benefit of the farm community . In doing that it's been done out of benefit for the whole Canadian community.

International communities have benefited greatly from it as well from the triticale in the highlands of Africa and so many other parts of the world where developments that they have made in Canada with government assistance - not with Shell, not with Fyser (phonetic) or your other major chemical firms who are wanting now to be able to design a particular crop that if you want to go and buy seed , you 're going to have pay them a premium price for it. How many varieties are you going to have?

How many varieties and how many firms in England - and I'm running off of memory here - but in England a few years ago, before they brought in plant breeders' rights in England , there was a couple of hundred small seed firms. The last I heard they were down to less than a dozen or around a dozen firms . That is some kind of economic development and of inte rest to the rural community of Manitoba and for the small industry base in developing . What would - a friend of mine . . . Skinner up with a drop more nursery. Most of th at has been developed and the varieties were developed by his dad, Dr. Skinner.

A tremendous amount. Another self-taught man, Dr. Skinner, how many degrees did Dr. Skinner earn through various universities? He didn't earn any. He earned them through laudatory degrees, through honourary degrees, but he was probably one of the greatest plant breeders that this province and that this country has ever seen in developing varieties that could withstand - and certa inly we have all benefited tremendously with our gardens and many farm yards as well across the province to develop varieties that could sustain our climate.

I really cannot understand the will and the desire and blind faith that the member's opposite have in plant breeders' rights. If they're going to turn this whole thing over to multinational firms - and it won't be any Canadian firms, believe me - there will be no major Canadian firms involved in deve loping and licensing of worldwide crop varieties. It will be done by multinational firms. Some of the research may be done here; they may purchase some 1256

Tuesday, 24 June, 1986 research time, as I'm sure they will at our various universities. I would hope they would purchase some as I'm sure they purcha se some right now. The interest that we in this province must protect is the seed stock that we have right now and the varieties that we have of building greater resistances, of building not just peak crops for your so-called green rev olution, but crops that are going to be able to sustain changes in clima tic conditions and also the invasions of various rusts and other diseases that come into the province.

For us to accept the position that some of the members opposite are that plant breeders' rights are going to be the eat's meow for all of them, I think they're dead wrong. Dead wrong. Unfortunately there's not going to be just them that's dead. lt could have far greater ramifications, especially in Third World countries because they're not going to be able to afford the other ingredients that have to go along with the designed seeds. They're not going to be able to afford the equipment and whatever that has to be used for the application of it as wel l. That's been proven time and time again.

Given Third World nations, many of them, trying to turn them into using western agricultural techniques has failed miserab ly. Probably one of the greatest examples of that is the growth in the Sahill (phonetic) regions of Africa partially due to trying to transfer inappropriate agricultural techniques onto that continent using methodology that we have here. We' re even paying some of the prices for it here although we still refuse to acknowledge it. Our agronomists, unfortuna tely, refuse to acknowledge it as well.

I resent - and the reason I was driven to rise today to enter this debate is because of what I feel are attacks on a Ma nitoban who ha s di stingu ished hi mself internationally and I feel there is not a person in this provinc e who could rep resent the Province of Manitoba's position and to enhance our position as well as Patrick Mooney can to present our position to the government of Ottawa. Thank you. MR. CHAIRMAN: May I remind all the members that what we are considering now is an item called Agricultural Research Grants. Therefore members' remarks should be strictly relevant.

If it is good for the goose, it is good for the gand er. The Member for Virden. MR. G. FIND LAY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I hope the last 15 minutes will be struck from the record. I would now ask the Minister of Agriculture if he'll consult with his Minister of Labour behind him, and ask him if he agrees that unions are important for the Province of Manitoba. We have an Agrologist Act where if anybody is going to practise agrology in the Province of Manitoba, they must be licensed of that Act, and I ask you if the person you have hired qualifies in that context?

I go further and ask you when a job or a position is av ailable from the Province of Manitoba, is it the policy to not tender that job, just to hire the person that comes along? I go further and say, all you have to do is give the member who just spoke a pen and pencil and he'll write exactly what you want to have written. 1257 SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. CHAIRMAN: The Minister of Agriculture has the floor. HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, there is no prohibition of hiring someone other than having an agrologist position. In fact, Mr.

Chairman, the honourable member would be wise to even check with his federal colleagues. Several federal Deputy Ministers of Agriculture do not have degrees in agrology and yet they are in fact Deputy Ministers running the Department of Agriculture in this country. No one seems to have been undermined or done less or served less because they have had or did not have a degree as an agrologist, Mr. Chairman. I'm sure that if anyone is practising agrology, as the member suggests, that is beyond his professional scope or ability that there would be through the professional bill that the member speaks of.

There would no doubt be a complaint and individuals would, in fact, be dealt with in the manner that the profess ional bill sets out. There are procedures by which people who might be pract isin g some thing, or at least putting forward recommendations of which, not even recommendations showing that they are something when they are really not that. That act, in fact, would deal with that ques tion. Mr. Chairman, I want to advise my honourable friend, we were just looking at the debate that has gone on and the report that was done by the univ ersity, and I quote from the report that was done by a professor there.

"There's been a great deal of debate about the effects of the legislation, but the arguments have been made largely without any serious analysis or documentation despite the long gestation period prior to introducing the bill and despite the six years of committee discussions, lobbying and dis cussion in the media." Mr.

Chairman, we may not totally succeed in trying to highlight some of the effects of the legislation, but we certainly will try and put a perspective so that there is a great deal of debate on this issue in the countryside, and we hope that will generate the interest that this matter deserves, not only in Manitoba, but across this country whenever the study and the issues and the meetings take place and, in fact, are released. MR. G. FIND LAY: Who did the study at the University of Manitoba? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, R.M. A. Loyns. MR. G.

FIND LAY: Have you had any discussions with the Canadian Seed Growers' Association in this area in the province? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, I have not had dis cussions directly with the Canadian Seed Growers, but certainly they are one of the groups that we will want to be consulting with in this whole area. MR. G. FIN DLAY: An analysis of the Plant Breeders' Rights issue without coming down on either side. MR. CHAIRMAN: 6.(

f) the Member for Morris. MR. C. MANNESS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Tuesday, 24 June, 1986 I apologize for missing much of this spine-tingli ng debate that's occurred here this evening. I feel , though , that I must rise as a select seed grower, as a mem ber of the Canadian Seed Growers, and somebody who doesn 't certainly claim to know all the answers with respect to this issue, but one . But I feel I have to rise in rebuttal to some of the comments made by the renowned plant scientist, the Member for Inkster . - (Interjection) - Mr.

Chairman, I was here long enough to hear the comments from the Member for Inkster in response to the comment hurled across the floor by the Minister of the Environment . What I find particularly interesting - and I've been following this discussion now for three or four year s, as a matter of fact, I have a Brandon Sun

article which I'll use a little bit later on , Mr. Chairman - is that I haven't seen Dr. Barry Campbell , who has developed probably six or eight major Marquis type varieties of wheat in Western Canada, probably nobody more renowned in the last generation with respect to the plant breeding of top quality Marquis type yields. I've never heard him come to the defence of one Mr. Pat Mooney . I've never Dave Leisle, one of the great breeders of Durham wheat that has been used across the prairies for the last 15 years, I've never heard him come to the defence of Mr. Mooney . I've never heard Dr.

Johnson , the barley breeder out of the Brandon station , I've never heard him rush to the defence of Mr. Mooney . I've never heard Dr. Baldur Stefansson who, with the cooperation of Dr. Downey , c reated that great Cinderella crop which basically in a cash sense kept most of the farmers in Western Canada in busi ness over the last 20 years . I've never heard any one of these men speak out in support of the argument put forward by one Pat Mooney. Mr. Chai rm an - (Interjection) - Well, I have the Minister of Northern Affairs saying have they talked against it. Mr. Chairman, that's the point I'm making .

I haven 't heard them talk against it, and I can tell you that members within the Seed Trade Association and within the Seed Growers Association would go to those types of individuals for an argument, or at least for resource help to help them make up their minds whether to be in favour or in opposition to the position put forward. Mr. Chairman , three years ago, I came very close to putt ing into the House a resolution with respect to this. As a matter of fact , I may do so now. I had a resolut ion prepared on the issue .

I can tell you when the subject first came up, I wanted to listen a little bit more carefully to the arguments put forward by Mr. Mooney . I wanted to know a little bit more about the principle that he was espousing . Mr.

Chairman, if there's any legitim acy to that argument, any legitimacy at all, then I t hink it' s incumbent upon members oppos ite and indeed all players within the game of agriculture within Western Canada, those who are eithe r seed growers , those who are farmers who go to seed growers , people in the seed trade to source their seed stock, that they make sure that there's cooperative test procedures in place . So then, indeed, nobody can bring forward a variety . I don't care who it is.

Whether it's the public institutions, the universities , or whether it's the public institutions of Agriculture Canada, that nobody can bring forward a variety, however they want to call it, however they want to name it , unless it's gone through the proper cooperative tests , the zona tion trials , and has met the test. Mr. Chairman , that's our safeguard. We've got that system in place in this country and it's fortunate we do . Unless the m ember s are envisaging a plant breeders ' rights system , whereby those individu als who breed grain varieties in this country can escap e that system , then , Mr.

Chairman, they are doing a disservic e and this government's doing a disservice by brin ging forward this type of activit y and sponsoring it. Because that's our safeguard . That 's the safeguard for the Government of Canada and, indeed , for the Province of Manitoba , if they push the Federal Government to make sure that every variety that is licensed within the nation , whether it' s for royalty , profit or not , goes through those cooperative tests. If they don 't make the market, Mr. Chairman, before the expert com mittee s, then they do not receive their licence. The solut ion is simple.

We have in place a tri al system to make sure that no inferior varieties are fo isted upon us. Because people in the past will tell us about the American varieties that 30 years ago used to come into Canad a when we didn't have the restri ctions in place , and they were called things like Bonanza. They had this real inte resti ng name associated with them . I mean, you just want ed to grow them. You wanted to plant them in snow almost. You could hardly wait to see them ripening and mature. We've gone through that stage , and yet that's what the members opposite are afraid of.

They're afraid some huckster is going to come along and show phony resu lts, given a glorified name like " Big Produce r" or " Big Red" and next thing you know, they're going to have everybody buying it at $12 or $15 a bushel with expectations we're going to hit 80 bushels an acre for wheat, Mr. Chairman. So, that's what we have in place. We have the cooperati ve trial system in place to prevent that from occurring. Now the Minister says well what about the unlicensed varietie s, the semi-dwarfs that have come in? Well , Mr.

Chairman , they have come in the last couple of years, and a few farmers have been burnt on them , not burnt in yield, but maybe burn t more so in quality . Let the buyer beware , Mr. Chairman . It doesn't go on for very long . It doesn 't go on for very long at all. HON. B. URUSKI: Why do you want you r s tud y of pricing when you say let the buyer beware? MR. C. MANNESS: Mr. Chairman, first of all, thos e varieties in a lot of cases came in illegally - the Minister knows that - but there was no way they could be stamped out.

So conseque ntly some farmers grew them and were caught in a down market and I dare say the demand that I've seen for them this year has dropped significantly. Anyway , Mr. Chairman, I don 't want to digress, but today we have in place within this nation a cooperative test system which, if used, and if the Federal Government ensured that all varieties , before they received a licence , whether they were public or privat e, went through that system, that would represent the safeguards of th ose of us who grow crops. 1258

Tuesday, 24 June, 1986 Mr. Chairman, what is the motive for the Mem ber for Inkster rising on this? And I probably shouldn't ask that question, but I couldn't help but bring out of my records the Brandon Sun, Monday , February 27, 1984, and it says , "MLA urges conservationists to consider recy cling project." I underst and that there was a meeting, a conserver action group meeting held that weekend in Brandon . And who was speaking at that meeting ? Mr. Scott, Mr. Gramble - who would he be? - and Mr. Mooney, Mr. Chairman . Mr.

Chairman, that tells me why the Member for Inkster has such a desire and such a keen interest in this. I mean he must; he went to a weekend conference in Brandon and he happened to hear Mr. Mooney speak and all of a sudden he's a resident expert for that side on the whole area of plant breeders' rights. Well, Mr. Chairman, I daresay I'll take the word of Dr. Barry Campbell, Dr. Dave Leisle, Dr. Baldur Stefansson, and formerly Dr. Johnson, long before any member that the government wants to bring forward into their government to try and sell us a bill of goods that really is questionable in the extreme. So, Mr.

Chairman, I hope that the government maybe will bring forward a resolution on this . I'd love to debate it in greater detail. HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, I venture to say that some of the names that the honourable member spoke about certainly have been public breeders and are public breeders in the Canadian context , some of whom have been and st ill may be employees of Agriculture Canada . Mr. Chairma n, let's just understand what has been happening in this whole area.

The very system that the honourable member speaks of that is the cooperative system of testing in Canada is where the dollars have, in fact, been slipping where in fact in terms of nationa l commitment to research, where in fact scientists have had to do much of their own leg work , their own work in the plots, where in fact the monies that were there for tech nicians and technical help and basically people who would assist the scientists, have dried up. Mr. Chai rman, for the last number of years, there was a growing concern from the public breeding areas and people connected fairly closely with Ag Canada.

But, Mr. Chairman, you know what's happened? And I can understand the political arm saying this : If you want to complain and want to take a different policy direction from the government and you get your money from the government, let's

part company. Let's

part company . You can have your freedom to criticize a public position of the government, you're very free to do that, but you do it on your own time . I can tell you the voice of concern has suddenly died out, Mr. Chairman, and I can understand the political masters saying that; that if I'm paying someone 's tune, I'm paying the salary, I expect them to follow the policy directives of the government. If they wish to publicly come out and say I am criticizing gove rn ment policy , then clearly they know which road to take, Mr. Chairman. Quite frankly, that's what has occurred . Mr.

Chairman, that is what in effect has happened in this country in terms of the concerns that have been raised reg arding the public breeding system. Mr. Chairman, I want to tell my hon ourable frie nds , and I will use the university study again, the very area that the member says ther e's enough information on, and I quote from Mr. Loyns' study, finally, and I read the last paragraph: "Since the current evidence indicates that there is neither a strong need nor great benefit to be derived, it is recommended that plant breeders' rights be implemented only if benefits to Canada can be demonstrated clearly.

The authors have not been able to produce such evidence in the course of the present study." Mr. Chairman, hardly a situation that should not be considered and, in fact, we hope that some of the work that we do may bring o