2006 Legislative Session: Second Session, 38th Parliament

HANSARD

The following electronic version is for informational purposes

only.

The printed version remains the official version.

Official Report of

DEBATES OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY

(Hansard)

MONDAY, MARCH 27, 2006

Afternoon Sitting

Volume 8, Number 4

CONTENTS

Routine Proceedings

Page

Introductions by Members

Introduction and First

Reading of Bills

Attorney General Statutes

Amendment Act, 2006 (Bill 17)

Settlement of International

Investment Disputes Act (Bill 19)

Hon. W.

Oppal

Finance Statutes Amendment Act,

2006 (Bill 18)

Hon. C.

Taylor

Christ for the Nations Bible

College Act (Bill Pr402)

D. Hayer

Statements (Standing Order

25 b )

MLA's experience in

health care system

Sultan

Education system in B.C.

Horgan

Joint-replacement surgery pilot

project

J. Yap

Nature Trust of B.C.

Simpson

Volunteerism in Langley

M. Polak

Emergency response in Powell

River

Simons

Oral Questions

Copeman clinic investigation

C. James

Hon. G.

Abbott

Public access to Medical Services

Commission

Cubberley

Hon. G.

Abbott

J. Kwan

Food services in Maple Ridge

health care facilities

Sather

Hon. G.

Abbott

Mental health services on

Sunshine Coast

Simons

Hon. G.

Abbott

Security of Accenture and B.C.

Hydro employee information

Gentner

Hon. R.

Neufeld

Access to B.C. Ferries

information

Chudnovsky

Hon. K.

Falcon

Farnworth

Committee of Supply

Estimates: Ministry of Employment

and Income Assistance (continued)

Trevena

Hon. C.

Richmond

J. Brar

Proceedings in the Douglas Fir Room

Committee of Supply

Estimates: Ministry of Education

and Minister Responsible for Early Learning and Literacy

Hon. S.

Bond

Horgan

C. Evans

Sather

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MONDAY, MARCH 27, 2006

The House met at 2:03 p.m.

Introductions by Members

Hon. S. Bond: We are delighted that today begins Education Week in British Columbia. Earlier today in the Legislature we were able to recognize a number of outstanding participants in the public education system. With the forbearance of the House, I would very much like to introduce them to the Legislature today. I know we will want to recognize them.

In the gallery today we have Ariane Ouellette, who is a student at Victor Brodeur secondary school. Ariane was one of 125 finalists taking

part in the 13th Dictée des Ameriques being held in the legislative hall of the Quebec National Assembly. I should tell you that Arianne had the best results for a British Columbia student, and she is considering a future — potentially — in political science, which we're very excited about.

Nick Prince is with us. He is an adult learner. Nick had a challenging youth, but on Friday, May 28, 2005, Nick received his grade 12 diploma. He is the first adult to complete his grade 12 requirements at the Canucks Family Education Centre, located at the Britannia Community Services Centre. He is a full-time father of two who was deeply motivated by his seven- and nine-year-old children to actually do what he did. We're very honoured to have him here today.

Carla Peace is with us today. She is a parent who is this year's winner of the George Matthews Award in recognition of her hard work and dedication. She began her volunteering in the Fort Nelson school district.

Donald Hutchinson is with us. He is a teacher at Montgomery Middle School. Donald is one of ten recipients of the 2005 Physical Education Teacher of the Year Award. This award recognizes ten provincial recipients, and he's made an outstanding contribution to students in this province.

Charlie Coleman is with us. He is the principal of Khowhemun Elementary in Duncan. Charlie has been identified as one of the four finalists for the Association for Supervision and Curriculum Development's Outstanding Young Educators Award.

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He is the first Canadian to be recognized and to be a finalist for this North American award. I told Charlie that we're going to be keeping our fingers crossed. He flies to Chicago this week, and I hope he's going to bring it back for B.C. Charlie is with us.

Wendy Herbert, who is a superintendent in the Gulf Islands, received the 2005 Distinguished Service Award given each year to selected B.C. school superintendents who have made a significant and exemplary contribution to public education in British Columbia.

We have Marie Bourgeois, a trustee, and she is the president of the Conseil scolaire francophone. She has been active in the French-speaking community since her arrival in 1974, and this past year she was made a member of the Order of Canada, in fact, for her exemplary work.

Finally and certainly not least, Rick Thomson is a school bus driver in Armstrong. He was involved in an incident that happened, involving two separate fatalities. In fact, Armstrong and the rest of the province recognize him as a hero.

These are incredible people in the public education system, and they represent the type of people who work with our students every single day. Please help me make them feel very welcome.

C. James: Joining us in the gallery today are two constituents of mine, David and Dr. Sandra Rifat. David is on the board of directors of the Union Club and a professor emeritus of fine arts at the University of Toronto. Sandra was an epidemiologist at the Clarke Institute as well as the University of Toronto. They are newly arrived to Victoria. They've been here three years. To those of us in Victoria, they are newly arrived. Would the House please make them very welcome.

Hon. S. Hagen: Today I had a wonderful lunch with a special group of people who are also joining us in the gallery today. What makes this group special is that they are all social workers from across British Columbia. This week we celebrate Social Worker Week, a week dedicated to recognize and applaud the dedication and commitment of social work professionals who touch the lives of thousands of British Columbians every day.

Social workers play a vital role by supporting families through difficulties, helping them recognize their strengths, overcome challenges and achieve their goals and aspirations. I am pleased to introduce to the House today Judy Nelson, a child protection social worker from Port Alberni; Shelley Hamilton, a guardianship social worker from Vancouver; Cyndi Robinson, a family service social worker from our Princeton-Keremeos district office; and Kim Hetherington, a resource social worker from the Fraser region.

Paul Jenkinson, another of our ministry social workers from the Fraser region, is also with us today. Paul recently received a Distinguished Service Award for Advocacy in Professional Practice from the B.C. Association of Social Workers.

I would also like to acknowledge Brenda Lewis, social worker and deputy director of child welfare from Prince George. Brenda is the nominee in the leadership category for a Premier's award for excellence and innovation. Please join me in thanking all social workers and these folks in particular for the incredible work they do, and extend to them a very, very warm welcome.

C. Evans: Joining us on the floor of the House today is an esteemed gentleman who you can now name in here — Jimmy Doyle, who is the mayor of Golden. I have a bit of a request, hon. Speaker. As you and anybody who has heard the gentleman speak knows, he

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Hon. L. Reid: David Hughes is with us today. David has had a long and distinguished career with Sierra Systems. In fact, Sierra Systems, a leader in high technology, is actually 40 years old this year. I would ask the House to acknowledge that and certainly to welcome David to our midst.

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C. Trevena: I'd like the House to welcome Tobin Lange and Katherine Jorgensen, two new constituents of mine. Tobin and Katherine recently moved to B.C. from Denmark. For Katherine it was a homecoming, and for Tobin a new departure. I'm happy to say they chose Campbell River as the place to settle, to start a new business and to work as a nurse. While Katherine and Tobin clearly love the natural landscape of the region, they are perhaps even more impressed by the warmth of people in Campbell River and the North Island. I hope the House will also extend a very warm welcome to Katherine and Tobin.

Hon. C. Hansen: It is with great pleasure that we welcome 73 grade five students from Lord Kitchener Elementary School in the riding of Vancouver-Quilchena. They are accompanied by 17 adults, including two of their teachers, Mrs. Dana Peterson and Alison Sharpe. Will the House please help me in making them very welcome.

L. Krog: Two items. I don't think I'd be offending the House rules by saying it's good to see the member for West Vancouver–Capilano back in his rightful spot — and, I might add, the picture of health.

I would like to ask the House to make welcome Marilyn Brown. She is a learning assistance and math teacher from Woodlands Secondary in my constituency and a hard-working member of the BCTF as well. If the House would make her welcome.

Hon. R. Neufeld: You'll know it's a longstanding issue here in the House that it's not very often that I get to introduce someone from a constituency so far away. So it's a great pleasure for me today — although the Minister of Education ably introduced her — to reintroduce to the House Carla Peace. She is this year's winner of the George Matthews Award. She's a great parent, a good friend and a great citizen in the community of Fort Nelson. Would everyone please make her welcome again.

C. Wyse: It is indeed my pleasure today to introduce to the House Tanja and Tad Crowie along with their infant new Caribooster William, along with Jasana and Harvey Crowie. I look forward to joining them tonight for dinner, and I would ask the House to make them most welcome.

Hon. G. Abbott: Like the Minister of Energy and Mines, I rarely get to introduce constituents, so I'd like to introduce one from the Shuswap today. Again, the Minister of Education briefly mentioned Rick Thomson earlier. Rick is a member of the Armstrong fire department as well as a first responder for the Armstrong area, who serves the community of Armstrong remarkably well there.

As the Education Minister noted, Rick has also served school district 83 and certainly the entire Shuswap very well in terms of being a dedicated employee of school district 83. Rick was recognized earlier for his courageous and compassionate efforts under exceptionally difficult circumstances. I'd like the House to please make him welcome.

M. Sather: It was my pleasure today to have lunch with three teachers that are here to talk to MLAs about education issues, and I'd like to introduce two of them. Dr. Chiara Anselmo is a grade six-seven teacher, school district 73 in Kamloops. She has been teaching for 20 years. She's also a social justice activist and a strong advocate for public education.

Janice Neden is a learning resource teacher from Kamloops, and she's a product of the public school service of B.C. as well as at the university level. She has a master's degree in education and has taught for over 30 years. Would the House please join me in making them welcome.

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R. Cantelon: I would like to introduce two guests today from the Nanaimo District Teachers Association: Cindy

G. Gentner: Joining us in the House today is Sylvia Bishop, a dear friend of mine who goes back 25 years. Sylvia has been an elementary school teacher for over 20 years in Delta. She has served on the local teachers association executive and numerous of its committees. She currently works for the B.C. Teachers Federation in the communication and campaign division. Would the House please give her a warm welcome.

K. Conroy: It gives me real pleasure today to introduce His Worship Gord Smith, who is mayor of Rossland. He was a councillor and ran in the fall and became the mayor now. It's really a pleasure to have him here in the House with us.

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N. Macdonald: I just want to introduce again His Worship Jim Doyle, mayor of Golden. He served as mayor and councillor in Golden for a long time before serving here for ten years. He's back as mayor of Golden. He is a personal friend, and he taught me what it's like as an MLA. When I was mayor, he was my MLA, and he sort of set the standard for how you work with local government. So please, again, join me in making him feel welcome.

D. Routley: I'd like the House to help me welcome Charlie Coleman, a principal from school district 79, Cowichan Valley. Charlie's mother was my grade 5 teacher, and the only teacher who didn't give me the strap — the only one who did but didn't. I've got to give you a story here.

I was shooting a piece of paper into my desk, not paying attention, and I missed the desk and hit his mom in the back of the head. So she turned around and said: "Who did that?" I just watched my hand go up. She had promised to give the strap to whoever did it, but knowing how honest I was, she took me into the hallway and said: "Look, I'm not going to give the strap, but you're not going to tell anyone that I'm not doing it."

Interjection.

D. Routley: There you go.

So I'd like all of us to help make Charlie welcome in the House.

K. Krueger: Often things seem very adversarial in this place to the public looking on, but time and again we see how members actually really care about one another. I've actually missed Jimmy Doyle. I remember with fondness the day that he added the words, "Skude mussels," to every item on the menu in the parliamentary dining room. He actually meant to say, "SCUD missile," but it sure sounded like skude mussels to us.

I want to join the member for Nanaimo in celebrating the fact that time and again a certain member of the House proves that just because there's snow on the roof doesn't mean there isn't fire in the furnace. Our senior statesman is not going to let a little thing like a heart attack keep him from his job in this place, and we just really want to welcome him back.

[Applause.]

I hope I said West Vancouver–Capilano.

Mr. Speaker: Seeing as how we got down to the end, we'll start all over again. Member for Malahat–Juan de Fuca.

J. Horgan: Boy, there's so much to introduce. I have to say that the member for West Vancouver–Capilano has the best hair in the House, and there's not a white one on.

Had I been recognized earlier, I might have got in ahead of my colleague from Cowichan-Ladysmith, but I want to acknowledge the presence of Charlie Coleman, as well, in the gallery today — the son of the former mayor of Duncan, the nephew of the current councillor in the city of Victoria and an outstanding leader in the Malahat–Juan de Fuca constituency. Fortunately, the traffic was light on the Malahat today, so he was able to get here. The only drawback in Charlie's impressive resume is that when I first met him, he was wearing a Montreal Canadiens jersey, and I certainly don't hold that against him. Welcome, Charlie.

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Hon. M. de Jong: Moira McLean is a respected member of the legislative press gallery. Like most members, I am unaccustomed to using those two terms in the same sentence.

However, she is today celebrating what we generally refer to as a milestone birthday. Now, it is not just outdated notions of chivalry that prevent me from disclosing the milestone. but her eternal youthful countenance would, I'm sure, if I revealed the truth, expose me to charges of having misled the House. So I will not do so except to say happy birthday, Moira, on behalf of all of us here.

D. Jarvis: I can't let it stop here. I just want to say, contrary to public belief or most people's belief, that I did only take six years to get through elementary school. So I, too, would like to congratulate those leaving from Lord Kitchener, as an alma mater.

Mr. Speaker: Sure there isn't anybody else to introduce? Welcome, everybody that wasn't.

Introduction and

First Reading of Bills

ATTORNEY GENERAL STATUTES

AMENDMENT ACT, 2006

Hon. W. Oppal presented a message from His Honour the Administrator: a bill intituled Attorney General Statutes Amendment Act, 2006.

Hon. W. Oppal: I move that the bill be introduced and read a first time now.

Motion approved.

Hon. W. Oppal: I am pleased to introduce Bill 17. The bill amends the following statutes: the Business Corporations Act, Escheat Act, Estate Administration Act, Infants Act, Sheriff Act, Statute Revision Act. Bill 17 also contains provisions to validate appointments made to the Electoral Boundaries Commission.

I move that the bill be placed on the orders of the day for second reading at the next sitting of the House after today.

Bill 17, Attorney General Statutes Amendment Act, 2006, introduced, read a first time and ordered to be

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placed on orders of the day for second reading at the next sitting of the House after today.

SETTLEMENT OF INTERNATIONAL

INVESTMENT DISPUTES ACT

Hon. W. Oppal presented a message from Her Honour the Lieutenant-Governor: a bill intituled Settlement of International Investment Disputes Act.

Hon. W. Oppal: I move that the bill be introduced and read a first time now.

Motion approved.

Hon. W. Oppal: I am pleased to introduce Bill 19. This bill would offer an international convention, a process which has been highly effective and highly popular in settling disputes between international investors. It has been adopted in 140 countries, including the United States and all other members of the G8 nations.

The convention, entitled the convention on the settlement of disputes between states and nationals of other states, permits a private dispute resolution process that can be used to resolve international investment disputes between jurisdictions that are signatories to the convention and persons from member jurisdictions. The convention would provide an effective method by which commercial disputes involving investment disputes which British Columbia investors abroad might encounter in any of the countries and are parties to that convention….

I move that the bill be placed on the orders of the day for second reading at the next sitting of this House after today.

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Bill 19, Settlement of International Investment Disputes Act, introduced, read a first time and ordered to be placed on orders of the day for second reading at the next sitting of the House after today.

FINANCE STATUTES

AMENDMENT ACT, 2006

Hon. C. Taylor presented a message from Her Honour the Lieutenant-Governor: a bill intituled Finance Statutes Amendment Act, 2006.

Hon. C. Taylor: I move the bill be introduced and read a first time now.

Motion approved.

Hon. C. Taylor: I am pleased to introduce the Finance Statutes Amendment Act, 2006, which amends Ministry of Finance statutes, most notably the Business Corporations Act.

The changes proposed to the Business Corporations Act will broaden public access to company share registers, and make corrections and technical refinements to the act and related statutes. The bill also contains minor technical amendments to the Financial Institutions Act, as well as amendments that will update its provisions to apply the new Business Corporations Act rather than the old Company Act to extra-provincial financial institutions.

The Finance Statutes Amendment Act, 2006, will amend the Mutual Fire Insurance Companies Act to reduce unnecessary regulatory burden. This bill will also repeal an obsolete statute, the Pacific North Coast Native Cooperative Act, and make the technical amendments to the Public Sector Employers Act.

Finally, this bill will amend the Real Estate Services Act to streamline the treatment of real estate commissions by brokers and refine matters related to the new Real Estate Compensation Fund.

Mr. Speaker, I move the bill be placed on orders of the day for second reading at the next sitting of the House after today.

Bill 18, Finance Statutes Amendment Act, 2006, introduced, read a first time and ordered to be placed on orders of the day for second reading at the next sitting of the House after today.

CHRIST FOR THE NATIONS

BIBLE COLLEGE ACT

D. Hayer presented a bill intituled Christ for the Nations Bible College Act.

D. Hayer: I move the bill be introduced and now read a first time.

Motion approved.

D. Hayer: It is with great pleasure that I act as a sponsor of this bill to create a degree-granting status for the post-secondary institution located in my community of Surrey.

Christ for the Nations was established as a non-profit missionary agency in Canada in 1978 and began offering interdenominational diploma-level programs in 1989. The Christ for the Nations Institute in Dallas, Texas, was the founding school of the Canadian college, which now operates independently of its founders as one of 44 colleges throughout the world.

The Canadian college is located in my community of Surrey and has approximately 75 students and 14 faculty. It presently offers diploma- and certificate-level programs with an emphasis on practical ministry training. A proposed Christ for the Nations Bible College Act is a private bill which, if passed, will continue the Christ for the Nations Bible College and set out its original structure, authority, rights and obligations.

Legal counsel for the proponents has advised that the college is already incorporated under the Society Act and is pursuing a private bill to obtain authority to grant theological degrees in its own name and right, despite sections on degree-granting set out in other legislation. As well, theological colleges find it benefi-

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cial to incorporate under the legislation in order to permit their students to qualify for student financial assistance.

This bill has been reviewed by both the Ministry of Finance and the Ministry of Advanced Education and meets their criteria. I'm supporting this bill, and I ask that all members of the House also support this worthy goal.

I move that the bill be referred to the Select Standing Committee on Parliamentary Reform, Ethical Conduct, Standing Orders and Private Bills.

Bill Pr402, Christ for the Nations Bible College Act, introduced, read a first time and referred to the Select Standing Committee on Parliamentary Reform, Ethical Conduct, Standing Orders and Private Bills.

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Statements

(Standing Order 25

b) MLA’S EXPERIENCE

IN HEALTH CARE SYSTEM

R. Sultan: As Chair of this Legislature's Health Committee, I seized a recent opportunity to give the system a grassroots test. It passed with flying colours.

Through the dedication of Sergeant-at-Arms Humphreys and his staff, the paramedics of B.C. Ambulance Service — a fine group of people — cardiac specialist Dr. Kinkle, countless nurses, care aides and hospital support workers at Royal Jubilee Hospital, through to my own Dr. Kroll and cardiac home care specialist Nurse Solly…. Through all their combined efforts, they patched me up to live another day.

We've all heard the message about ActNow and five and 20 — the importance of five fruits and vegetables a day and 20 minutes of exercise. But hearing isn't doing. I had to be whacked on the head with the equivalent of a two-by-four to pay attention before I took it to heart — no pun intended. I am sure acting now.

According to the specialists, 25 years ago I would have been a dead man. Now I felt I was ready to go back to work the very next day.

From my first feelings of heartburn during question period….

[Laughter.]

Well, we've all experienced that. You know, I must say I did stand up with some trepidation, knowing immediately what happened last time.

But from question period until I was discharged from the operating room was only 150 minutes. In a situation where minutes count, that is, I think, extraordinary.

So bring on the broccoli and the running shoes; down with television and French fries. It's great to be back. Thank you to the almost 500 members, friends and constituents who were so gracious with their various expressions of support.

EDUCATION SYSTEM IN B.C.

J. Horgan: It's a pleasure to rise and join with other members today in acknowledging the beginning of Education Week here in British Columbia. As the official opposition Education critic, I've been travelling around the province meeting with students, teachers, parents, trustees, support workers and superintendents. Although we always have more work to do, I have been struck by the commitment and quality of the many individuals and communities across this province that dedicate their time and energy to improving the educational experience of our students.

Indeed, these exceptional individuals have contributed to make our public education system the envy of the country — and perhaps the best in the world.

But school is not just about academic achievement. Although we score very well in traditional measurements, the greatest achievement of our school system is the impact on the social and emotional development of our young citizens. We are, of course, producing fine scholars and poets, athletes and musicians, but we are also shaping the character of the future community leaders in our province.

With the Minister of Education, I met Nick Prince today, a father of school-aged children in Vancouver. He recently returned to finish his grade 12 so that he could tell his kids the importance of hard work, sacrifice and perseverance. It's stories like Nick's right across this province that are an inspiration to me and to all of our members in this House.

So I encourage you, members, to take advantage of this week to visit a school in your community, meet some teachers and support workers, go to a basketball game, go to a track meet, take in a play or a school band production and celebrate the accomplishments of our outstanding students. At the same time, I'd like you to celebrate the accomplishments of those students who overcome obstacles every day just to be in the classroom. They, too, are an inspiration to all of us, and I urge you to do that at your earliest opportunity.

JOINT-REPLACEMENT SURGERY

PILOT PROJECT

J. Yap: Keeping with the theme of health care, I rise today to talk about the results of the joint-replacement surgery pilot project that began in Richmond in 2004. The provincial government, Vancouver Coastal Health and Richmond Hospital established this project to reduce wait times for hip and knee replacements. The project has been an outstanding success. It has been so successful that UBC hospital is setting up two operating rooms to duplicate this initiative in Vancouver.

Our government provided $500,000, and the Richmond Hospital Foundation and Vancouver Coastal Health each contributed $400,000 to renovate and open a sixth operating room at the hospital.

[1435]

The goal of this project was to use the operating room more efficiently to perform knee- and hip-

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replacement surgeries. Standardized equipment, supplies and prostheses were used to achieve a 40-percent increase in the number of joint-replacement surgeries performed. Other improvements: in-patient preparation and post-operation care reduced hospital stays for the surgeries, freeing up beds for other patients.

Finding improvements in joint-replacement surgery is vital to our health care system in British Columbia. The number of seniors in this province is projected to double by 2028, and we will be providing more joint-replacement surgeries than ever before.

I'd like to congratulate Dr. Ken Hughes and Cindy Roberts, who led the project. Their success will profoundly improve the lives of countless British Columbians as more hospitals duplicate their methods. Dr. Jeff Coleman, the chief operating officer of Richmond Health Services, also deserves recognition for his continuing efforts to find innovations to improve the quality of care provided by Richmond Hospital.

This project furthers our government's goal to build the best system of supports for B.C. seniors by improving the mobility, health and quality of life for our seniors.

NATURE TRUST OF B.C.

S. Simpson: I'm pleased to rise today in the House to ask that the House help to celebrate the 35th anniversary of the incorporation of the Nature Trust of British Columbia. The Nature Trust is British Columbia's oldest and largest non-profit land conservation organization. Its mandate is to protect B.C.'s natural diversity of wildlife and plants in their critical habitat through the acquisition and management of ecologically significant land.

The trust is a non-advocacy group working with landowners, corporations, other conservation organizations, governments and individuals to achieve its conservation objectives. Since 1971 the trust has invested over $65 million to secure more than 150,000 acres in British Columbia. Of their 120 acquisitions, 11 are now managed as provincial parks. This land is now valued at over $500 million.

The Nature Trust uses science-based analysis, technology and expertise to purchase land with the highest biodiversity values and land which is at the greatest risk of being lost. They use an innovative approach to accomplish their objectives, including land purchases, conservation covenants and ecological gifts, among others. This is always done in line with their mission statement, which states: "To conserve critical habitats and the naturally occurring plants and animals they nurture as well as other areas of ecological significance and scenic beauty throughout British Columbia."

In addition to their purchases, the trust manages over 229 properties, with the goals of ensuring that the long-term ecological and habitat values for which the land was acquired are achieved. Whether it is through their acquisitions or their youth crew, which gives young people an excellent life and work experience while supporting habitat restoration and cleanups, the Nature Trust makes a remarkable contribution to British Columbia. I urge all members to join me in congratulating them on their 35th anniversary.

VOLUNTEERISM IN LANGLEY

M. Polak: On February 3, at a very special dinner, Veronica Volunteer, a.k.a. Pauline Huth, shared her experiences as a lifelong volunteer. Pauline's alter ego Veronica made it up close and personal. Pauline Huth is the executive director at Langley's Meals on Wheels. Her speech at the Langley city volunteer appreciation dinner brought the house down. As she played the role of Veronica Volunteer, every honoured volunteer in the room saw a bit of themselves.

Volunteers from all walks of life give rides, visit the sick and elderly, prepare meals and assist all manner of charitable organizations. They give of themselves, asking nothing in return. Yet according to Veronica Volunteer, it is the best and most satisfying lifestyle one could possibly imagine.

My riding of Langley is rich in the spirit of volunteerism, so much so that appreciation events are a regular feature of the social calendar. In addition to the Langley city volunteer appreciation where Veronica Volunteer made her appearance, two upcoming events will pay tribute to those generous individuals who make our community the welcoming, supportive place that it is. On April 6 the township of Langley will honour its volunteers, and on April 7 the local RCMP detachment will pay tribute to community members who work to enhance the community aspect of policing.

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Volunteers are the unsung heroes of my community and yours. Their contributions are invaluable. Somehow an award or gala dinner just doesn't seem to suffice to show how much we appreciate the work that they do, so the next time you meet a volunteer, take the time to thank them. Let them know personally how much their work means to you.

EMERGENCY RESPONSE IN POWELL RIVER

N. Simons: I'm pleased to rise today to inform the House about an incident that took place last month in the early hours of the morning in Powell River. The reason I'm pleased is because most members haven't heard about what happened that morning. The reason they haven't heard about it is because of the dedication, the good training, the hard work and the courage of the men and women of the emergency services in Powell River.

Early on that February morning a propane tank slipped off a trailer as it was being unloaded from a barge in Powell River, shearing off the valve and releasing a cloud of 35,000 litres of liquid propane into the air. Any ignition source would have sent a 20-metre fireball into the air. Everything within a 75-metre radius would have ignited. The driver of the truck, John Veenhof, immediately alerted the Superior Propane manager of the accident.

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When he realized there were four refrigeration units running on the barge, he went back down and turned them off. This might have prevented the explosion. On the barge were 60,000 kilograms of gasoline, over 35,000 kilograms of heating oil and close to 30,000 kilograms of toxic chemicals. The manager of Superior Propane, Doug Miller, immediately turned off all sources of ignition in the area and remained on the scene to assist the firefighters, knowing full well the dangers he was in.

Chief Dean Gerhart, the director of fire and emergency services, took charge, immediately identified a 700-metre extreme danger zone, opened an emergency operations centre and ordered evacuation of at least 40 nearby residences. According to Doug Nauer, the municipal emergency coordinator, his professionalism and the manner in which he performed his duties have obviously filtered through his department and were evident in the way all the members of the department handled the situation.

He goes on to state: "I'm of the firm belief that it was only due to the action taken by the responders at the scene that this community did not experience a disaster that would have resulted in a major loss of life."

These firefighters included Captain Duff; firefighters Baker, Jones and Culos; and auxiliary firefighters Arrowsmith, Cleghorn, Fair, Foort, Hodgins, Hretchka, Rob Infanti, Oele and Pamela Iwasiuk.

RCMP members who remained in the danger zone while evacuating houses included constables Nassichuk, Huisman, Racz and Paquette.

I join the officials of the city and region in thanking them for their hard work.

Oral Questions

COPEMAN CLINIC INVESTIGATION

C. James: The Health Minister has referred the issue of the Copeman clinic's extra-billing scheme to the Medical Services Commission. Can the minister please tell this House, specifically, what he has sent to the Medical Services Commission in regard to his concerns regarding extra billing, and will he make any of those materials public?

Hon. G. Abbott: We have asked the Medical Services Commission to look into this issue because under the Medicare Protection Act, they are the appropriate body to which to refer such matters. We have asked them, in particular, to look at whether the operations, the business model, at the Copeman centre are in accord with the federal and provincial statutory framework which guide us in this province.

Mr. Speaker: Leader of the Opposition has a supplemental.

C. James: I think the public really wants to know not only the minister's view but, in fact, this government's view around the concern that has been taken to the Medical Services Commission. Those concerns, as we know, actually led to a legal opinion in Ontario that said that Mr. Copeman's scheme did in fact violate the Canada Health Act. This is a very serious issue.

If the Medical Services Commission rules in favour of Mr. Copeman's extra-billing scheme, it could in fact provide a how-to manual for other doctors when it comes to extra billing. My question is to the minister. Has the government sought a legal opinion on this issue, and will he make that legal opinion public as part of his submission to the medical commission?

Hon. G. Abbott: Just so the record is clear, the Leader of the Opposition referenced an Ontario legal opinion. I hope she will clarify for the House that that is not an opinion from the government of Ontario. It is in fact, as I understand it, a legal opinion from a private party or a private organization in Ontario. I don't believe the government of Ontario is any more in the habit of releasing its opinions than the government of British Columbia is.

[1445]

The issue is an important one, and we have secured advice from a range of sources as we have moved forward with the important issue with Mr. Copeman. We have been in discussion for some months, as the Leader of the Opposition well knows, with Mr. Copeman to try to fully understand the business model that guides his new clinic and to determine whether that clinic is within or outside of the bounds of the Canada Health Act and the Medicare Protection Act.

Mr. Speaker: The Leader of the Opposition has a further supplemental.

C. James: In fact, there is a difference between British Columbia and Ontario, and the difference is that the Ontario government has spoken out loud and clear and said no to Mr. Copeman and no to extra-billing.

The commission's decision on this issue could affect every family in British Columbia and could determine whether or not patients pay extra fees to see their family doctor. Mr. Copeman has said that he intends to make his argument to the commission defending his scheme that charges extra fees just to see a doctor.

This is a very simple question to the Minister of Health. What legal representation does the minister intend to take to the commission to defend public interest in this case?

Hon. G. Abbott: The Medical Services Commission performs its work independently. I understand that without any presumptions one way or another, they will pursue this matter objectively and professionally to determine the best advice that they might provide to me as minister or to undertake whatever action they deem appropriate under the terms of their act. But the commission is independent.

Again, I don't believe that anything is served by the kind of rhetoric which appears to be embodied in the

[ Page 3296 ]

Leader of the Opposition's question. Again, it's hard to believe, given that some 28 private clinics opened up under the NDP back in the 1990s, that they should be coming forward with such sanctimonious rhetoric.

PUBLIC ACCESS TO

MEDICAL SERVICES COMMISSION

D. Cubberley: You, know, I find it interesting that the minister continues to wilfully confuse the issue of private clinics with the issue of user fees. I don't believe that we on this side and the public are taken in by that.

After nine and a half months, the minister asked the Medical Services Commission to make a decision that will affect every family in British Columbia — whether doctors will continue to be prohibited from charging patients money for access to their services. This decision has a potential to determine whether public health care remains universal or not. A lot is riding on it, so it's essential that there be an open process.

Can the minister assure the House that the Medical Services Commission remains a public body and that he will ensure it follows an open process so that concerned members of the public can have access to the commission to present their opinions?

Hon. G. Abbott: I don't know whether the model that the member opposite has in mind is Perry Mason or some broader opportunity. The Medical Services Commission acts as the Medical Services Commission acts under the mandate that's accorded to it in the Medicare Protection Act. The powers of the commission are laid out very clearly in a number of sections, particularly sections 15 and 37. They will operate exactly as they should operate. They will be undertaking some fact-finding in respect of the Copeman clinic. They will be looking very closely at its business model, at how it is represented in its website and how it's represented in other promotional materials.

[1450]

Again, as we've said from the start, the concern here is: do the fees that are put forward by the Copeman clinic represent barriers to access under the terms of the Medicare Protection Act provincially and the Canada Health Act federally? That is what the commission will determine.

Mr. Speaker: Member for Saanich South has a supplemental.

D. Cubberley: Well, you know, the minister didn't actually respond to the question: is it a public body, and will it be open to the public?

The members opposite thought it was an important question when they were in opposition. They brought exactly that question to the government of the day. In fact, the Minister of Economic Development, then the Health critic, noted: "One of the groups that does not feel they're represented at the table in terms of the Medical Services Commission is probably the group that has the most at stake, and that's the public." He said it was a matter of "grave concern" to the public how their health care dollars would be spent. He was right.

He asked the minister of the day for just the kind of assurances we're seeking — that the meetings would be open. She said: "The advice that we have from the Attorney General…is that there is no reason to, and we don't actually have a right to, hold those meetings 'in secret' or 'in private.'"

So the question is: now you're the government, will the minister agree that the Medical Services Commission meetings continue to be open to the public and that persons other than Mr. Copeman will have the opportunity to present arguments to the commission on issues affecting the future of public health care?

Interjection.

Mr. Speaker: Member.

Hon. G. Abbott: The Medical Services Commission does not operate at my discretion or at my direction. The Medical Services Commission is an independent body that will act appropriately, given their statutory framework. If the members opposite wish to make a submission to the Medical Services Commission, they should contact the commission and see if that is possible. I don't determine whether that's possible or not.

It's interesting that ever since the controversy around the Copeman clinic first emerged, the members opposite — particularly the Health critic and the Leader of the Opposition — have been saying over and over again: "Oh, just shut it down; just shut it down." Now, when we're going to the appropriate body, the Medical Services Commission, somehow that process is flawed as well.

It makes me recall the words of one of their former colleagues, a former NDP Minister of Forests, who said: "Government can do anything it wants." Clearly, that's the way they think these things should operate. But we believe it has to be fair, it has to be objective, it has to be professional and it has to be comprehensive, and it has to be the right thing for the province of British Columbia.

J. Kwan: A simple question for the minister — no rhetoric: are the meetings and deliberations of the Medical Services Commission held in public?

Hon. G. Abbott: The member should refer to the act if she wishes to find out the answer to that question.

Mr. Speaker: Member for Vancouver–Mount Pleasant has a supplemental.

J. Kwan: You know what? I'm actually going to refer to the former Minister of Health, who was in opposition and who's now the current Minister of Economic Development. When he asked the question of former minister Penny Priddy if the meetings and deliberations of the Medical Services Commission were

[ Page 3297 ]

public, the minister then said yes — that they were. The former Minister of Health said, on record, that it is crucial that the public have access to that information.

We're now talking about user fees that impact potentially every single British Columbian. This government is accountable to that question, and I will give the minister another opportunity to answer the question that his own former minister put to the government then: are meetings and deliberations of the Medical Services Commission public? Does he deem that information important enough that those meetings are actually held in public so the public can access the information and deliberations of the Medical Services Commission?

[1455]

Hon. G. Abbott: This is a fascinating exercise in civics that we're undertaking here today, for sure. The powers of the Medical Services Commission were actually defined by the former NDP government back in the 1990s. That's when the commission was created, in statute, under the Medicare Protection Act.

When one has issues like the Copeman clinic, that is where, under the legislation that was passed by this former government, one goes to get answers to those questions. There are a number of provisions in the Medicare Protection Act, notably sections 15 and 37, that define the scope and authority of the commission in determining these things. It is entirely the right place for these questions to be resolved.

I think every citizen of British Columbia, save possibly the few across the way here, certainly deserves to get answers that are unbiased, that are objective and that are independent. That is precisely why we have put this matter to the Medical Services Commission.

FOOD SERVICES IN MAPLE RIDGE

HEALTH CARE FACILITIES

M. Sather: Last week the Minister of Health said that one of the issues in the debate around rethermalized food in hospitals, health care facilities and long-term care facilities had to do with tastiness. I have a question for the minister. Will the minister commit to eating retherm food from Ridge Meadows Hospital every day until his audit is complete, and will he report back to this House on how tasty it was?

Hon. G. Abbott: My goodness. The well is getting fairly dry, I'd say. I know these 30-minute question periods do wear down the number of available questions that one can advance to government ministers.

But you know, I have actually eaten rethermalized food at a hospital facility. It wasn't Hy's; it wasn't Bishop's. But it wasn't bad either. It was pretty good.

I asked the member the question the other day. He didn't get a chance to answer because he was on a supplemental, so I'll ask him first time round here. Is he willing to commit on behalf of this pretend government across the way that should they ever be elected in the future, they will ban rethermalized food?

I'd be fascinated to know that, particularly given that in 1995 it was the folks across the way that were the authors, the pioneers of food rethermalization in this province — 1995, Lions Bay hospital. Are you going to ban it in the future? Let me know.

Interjections.

Mr. Speaker: Members. Members. The member for Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows has the floor.

M. Sather: Well, it's unfortunate that the minister takes this cavalier attitude towards a very important issue to the residents in my constituency.

Two of the other factors that the minister mentioned last week around this issue had to do with nutritional content of the food and food safety. Now, the nutritional audit that the minister is planning is going to take two years, but surely if the minister were to eat this rethermalized food every day, as the residents of the Ridge Meadows Hospital long-term care facilities have to do, the audit would be unnecessary.

On the question of food safety: does the minister have any information whatsoever that the food at Ridge Meadows Hospital was unsafe before the rethermalized system was put into place?

Hon. G. Abbott: I'm still waiting for an answer to my question of whether the….

Mr. Speaker: Minister, you're not asking the questions. You're answering them.

Interjections.

Mr. Speaker: Members.

[1500]

Hon. G. Abbott: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I understood this was question period, not answer period.

However, let me frame my answer in this constructive way. There is no reason to fear food safety prior to rethermalization.

I'm sure that in 1995 when the NDP first brought rethermalized food into the hospital system, they didn't do it because of safety issues. I'm sure they did it for other reasons. I know that Fraser Health Authority has been working diligently to see the quality, tastiness, safety and reliability of foods constantly improved at facilities throughout the Fraser Health Authority. I do look forward to that commitment on the part of the opposition in respect of getting rid of rethermalization.

MENTAL HEALTH SERVICES

ON SUNSHINE COAST

N. Simons: My question is for the Minister of Health. The six-bed psychiatric unit at St. Mary's Hospital in Sechelt is the only facility for patients with acute mental illness on the Sunshine Coast. Last month it was closed without any warning, sending patients to

[ Page 3298 ]

the general ward and others literally out into the street. Can the minister please inform the House when this government will provide the adequate resources and encouragement to get that unit open again?

Hon. G. Abbott: This government invests well over $1 billion a year every year on mental health and addictions issues. It is one of the most important things that we do, as a Ministry of Health and as a government, to ensure that in fact there is the capital investment and capital reinvestment in mental health facilities around the province. I appreciate the member bringing forward this issue, and I would be pleased to follow up and provide him with further information in respect of that particular facility and the programs it offers.

Mr. Speaker: The member for Powell River–Sunshine Coast has a supplemental.

N. Simons: There seems to be a disconnect between the statements that the minister is making and the reality on the ground. Unfortunately, I'm hearing very disturbing stories from constituents. On the day of the closure of this particular facility, one was given a cheque to stay in a local hostel. One was recommended to go to the transition house. Another, after that situation arose, is now living homeless on the streets of Vancouver. In both cases, primary caregivers learned of the unit's closure when the patients called them.

Can the Minister of Health please explain how sending psychiatric patients to a hostel or to a day-surgery waiting room for a week constitutes health care when and where people need it?

Hon. G. Abbott: I understand that Vancouver Coastal Health Authority is working very hard to try to get that unit reopened, and it will be reopening as soon as possible. If the member is looking for a disconnect, however, what he should look at is the disconnect between the NDP's mental health plan of 1998, which was a cost of $125 million, which the minister of the day, Penny Priddy, admitted not one cent was funded for….

We've reversed that. We are now providing over $1 billion annually for mental health and addictions issues. It is a very important investment by this government. Not only do we walk the walk; we talk the talk as well.

SECURITY OF ACCENTURE AND

B.C. HYDRO EMPLOYEE INFORMATION

G. Gentner: We have learned of a serious information breach at foreign-owned Accenture that affects over 4,200 employees of B.C. Hydro and 1,500 at Accenture itself. Employees' names, numbers and salary and bank account information have been compromised. These employees must now consider monitoring their accounts for irregular debit activity, contacting appropriate credit agencies to advise of the breach, changing account numbers and changing PIN numbers.

Can the minister responsible for B.C. Hydro confirm that Accenture knew of this breach of security early last week — Monday or Tuesday? Why did it take Accenture until Thursday evening to notify B.C. Hydro and until Friday, March 24, to notify its employees?

[1505]

Hon. R. Neufeld: This government takes seriously, and I take seriously, any breach of information — or privacy information actually getting into the wrong hands. This issue came to me on Friday morning. The Crown had already acted on it in letting people know that something had happened.

We should make it clear here. Someone broke into an office of Accenture Business Services and actually cut a chain holding a computer and stole that computer. That's a criminal act, and I'm not going to comment on days or time or who.

Right now the RCMP are fully investigating what took place, what happened. When they finish their investigation — I don't want to compromise it in any way — they will let us know what took place.

Mr. Speaker: The member for Delta North has a supplemental.

G. Gentner: Maybe the minister doesn't want to compromise the situation, but the integrity of many of the employees has already been compromised.

The CEO of Hydro has appealed with cap in hand to Accenture to provide a review of this incident. Can the minister ask the Privacy Commissioner whether or not he has the authority to review a security breach of a private company which is in control of B.C. Hydro's employee and customer information?

Hon. R. Neufeld: I'm happy to tell the member that, actually, the Freedom of Information and Privacy Act applies to Accenture Business Services — to those services that are provided to the Crown, B.C. Hydro and B.C. Transmission Corp.

ACCESS TO B.C. FERRIES INFORMATION

D. Chudnovsky: Will the Minister of Transportation commit today to putting B.C. Ferries back under freedom-of-information legislation?

Hon. K. Falcon: As I mentioned last week to this House, we need to remind the members opposite why, in fact, B.C. Ferries was made to be an independent company. Why did we do that? We did that because, following the fast ferries fiasco, there were recommendations made, including by the Auditor General.

I might quote from the Auditor General for the member, because apparently my comments last week weren't compelling enough. The Auditor General, as a result of one of three reviews that were done following

[ Page 3299 ]

the fast ferries fiasco, said — pages 51 to 52 for that member, who may not have read the report: "…the province amend the B.C. Ferries enabling legislation to vest its powers in" — a truly accountable — "independent board of directors with responsibility for governing, exempt from political and bureaucratic interference."

That's exactly what we did. We did it to ensure that politicians and governments don't have the ability to interfere with the operations of B.C. Ferries.

Mr. Speaker: The member for Vancouver-Kensington has a supplemental.

D. Chudnovsky: It's interesting that the minister would talk about political interference.

Interjection.

Mr. Speaker: Member.

Continue.

D. Chudnovsky: It's interesting that the minister would refer to political interference, because last Thursday in this House this Minister of Transportation talked about instructions that were given by this government to B.C. Ferries regarding three ships in the northern fleet. We don't call that political interference. But without freedom-of-information legislation in place, the people of B.C. have no way of determining what the instructions that this minister talked about were and what impact they had and have on safety.

My question to the Minister of Transportation: will the minister commit today to putting B.C. Ferries back under freedom-of-information legislation? Or will he table in this House any instructions, advice, requirements or other correspondence between the government and B.C. Ferries as regards safety and maintenance?

Hon. K. Falcon: I think the member is confusing some things here. Actually, we set out, in the Coastal Ferry Act in 2003, on April 1, clear direction that B.C. Ferries was to replace the northern vessels within a ten-year period. That was written into the contract that B.C. Ferries is required to uphold. It's not interfering. It's just providing initial direction in the initial contract that provides the terms of reference under which they're to operate.

[1510]

In terms of freedom of information, the member is concerned about safety apparently. The member should know that B.C. Ferries is no different than our airlines. It's no different than the railways. If the member wishes to access freedom-of-information requests through Transport Canada or through the Transportation Safety Board, the member is free to do that. I can tell you that all those reports will be made available, any that are not public. The member can certainly access the federal freedom-of-information act.

But let's not forget the accountabilities that were built into place here — an independent ferries commissioner. We've got an independent board with representatives of small communities and labour and others that sit on that board. We've got audited financial statements. We've got an annual general meeting. There's lots of accountability at B.C. Ferries.

M. Farnworth: There is $127 million worth of taxpayers' money going into B.C. Ferries. FOI is about accountability. It's not about interference. Can the minister tell us: if FOI is good enough for Accenture — as was just stated by the Minister of Energy, Mines and Petroleum — why isn't it good enough for B.C. Ferries and the taxpayers of British Columbia?

Hon. K. Falcon: Well, I appreciate the member's passion. It's unfortunate they didn't show that same passion during the fast ferries fiasco.

You know, when I hear these questions, I'm left asking this question, which I hate to have to ask: have the members actually read the Auditor General's report? Have the members taken the time to read the reports that flowed out of the fast ferries? They were very clear, and they all had a common theme. The common theme was: you must make sure that this corporation is independent from political interference. Now, if the member wants to FOI safety records…

Interjections.

Mr. Speaker: Members.

Hon. K. Falcon: …they have the ability to….

Mr. Speaker: Minister.

Members, we want to hear the answer.

Minister, continue.

Hon. K. Falcon: You know, it's no different than the airlines. It's no different than railways. They're overseen and regulated by Transport Canada and the Transportation Safety Board. You can access that through the federal freedom-of-information act if you have any concerns, but I will tell you this. Today I can stand before this House and say there's a heck of a lot more accountability with B.C. Ferries than there ever was when it was a Crown corporation under that….

Interjection.

Hon. K. Falcon: Sorry, the member opposite is getting excited there.

Mr. Speaker: Member, would you withdraw that.

Hon. K. Falcon: Let's just remember….

Mr. Speaker: Minister.

H. Lali: Withdraw.

[ Page 3300 ]

Mr. Speaker: Continue, minister.

Hon. K. Falcon: Let's just remember that the NDP opposition in government had a different form of accountability. When the board of B.C. Ferries questioned the lack of business plan on the fast ferries fiasco, they fired the board, put in a new board headed by Jack Munro, went down that road, and it was a disaster.

[End of question period.]

Orders of the Day

Hon. M. de Jong: I call Committee of Supply. For the information of members, in Committee A we'll be discussing the estimates for the Ministry of Education, and in this chamber, continued debate on the Ministry of Employment and Income Assistance.

[1515]

Committee of Supply

ESTIMATES: MINISTRY OF EMPLOYMENT

AND INCOME ASSISTANCE

(continued)

The House in Committee of Supply (Section B); S. Hammell in the chair.

The committee met at 3:17 p.m.

On Vote 25: ministry operations, $1,369,415,000 (continued).

C. Trevena: Welcome back, minister. I'd like to carry on where we left off at the end of last week on Thursday evening, talking about access to assistance.

I know that the ministry made a big push this spring to get people on to direct debit. In fact, the push wraps up in a couple of days, as I understand. I don't want to talk about the rationale for this, because I've heard from some people it's good and from some people it's bad. I just wanted to know a bit more about the promotion itself. How much did the promotion cost?

Hon. C. Richmond: The ministry has allocated about $300,000 for this initiative. The actual cost will be determined based on the number of clients who sign up. I think I should add that this, although it may not always take the form of an active promotion, will be something we'll be encouraging our clients to do on an ongoing basis.

C. Trevena: Part of the promotion was the provision of socks, T-shirts or a travel mug and a canvas bag. Is that $300,000 the cost of those items?

Hon. C. Richmond: Yeah, pretty much. That's the cost of providing the incentives for people. I should add, too, that although some fun has been made of offering socks, when we consulted with the advocacy groups and the people who minister to a lot of these people on a daily basis, it was the number-one item that came to mind — that they could always use some socks. So the deputy and the people in the ministry put together a package of five pairs of socks. For most people, they were greatly appreciated.

To date, I should add, the clients' responses have been very positive. In fact, I just want to share a couple of recent and unsolicited comments made by our front-line staff.

[1520]

One staff member indicated:

I have placed several calls this morning to let folks know that their incentive was waiting for them at the office, if they'd like to come down and pick it up. Five clients have been in, and of those that I called, every one of them was very grateful, including a woman who was also nearly in tears. She came back up to the counter again to say a heartfelt thank you and wanted to mention as well that it is her birthday tomorrow and how she thought it was such a wonderful gift. Another shared that they felt compelled to give feedback about the sock and T-shirt incentive.

I have watched today a number of clients

receiving this gift and note their responses are very positive — absolutely no negative reactions, and a few, particularly older single men, looked as though they might cry. Sometimes when we are fortunate, we forget the positive impact just a small initiative like this makes those in need feel.

C. Trevena: Obviously, the promotion hasn't finished yet. I just wanted to know if you had figures on how many socks, mugs, T-shirts and so on have been actually distributed.

Hon. C. Richmond: We don't have any stats for you yet, but this Wednesday is cheque-issue day. About a week or ten days after that, we should know the results up to date. As soon as they're known, we'll let everybody know.

C. Trevena: I look forward to that. A couple more questions about this. I know that there…. Well, as you know, I was in the Kamloops phone centre, and they had some of the promotional materials there in the phone centre ready to hand out for when people did apply for direct debit.

It did seem at that stage there were large volumes of mugs and socks still available. This was about ten days ago, so I would be very interested to find out. I would like to know…. You said it's about $300,000. So does that mean that if you don't distribute all the mugs and socks, you get the money back? Is it a sale or return type of setup?

Hon. C. Richmond: We put enough into each office to accommodate the number of people who are not on direct deposit. To repeat what I said earlier, there is no finite cut-off date for this program. We are going to continue to encourage people to take up the idea of electronic deposit.

[ Page 3301 ]

Just to repeat for those who have just tuned in: we have about 70 percent of our clients now on direct deposit. We would like to see that number increase significantly, just to allow the people who are most vulnerable to retain more of their income assistance. Too many of them now fall prey to those who are predators and prey on them — the drug pushers, etc., and unscrupulous landlords — and we want to do everything possible to keep money out of the hands of those people and leave it in the hands of our clients. Direct deposit, we feel, is one of the best ways of doing that.

Another way is that we're working with the team in Vancouver, including the police, to make sure that people living in these SROs in the downtown east side are actually living in those places and that their cheque is going to provide shelter, rather than going to some unscrupulous person who takes the money, gives them a few dollars' worth of drugs for it, and then they don't have a place to live.

C. Trevena: I'll be picking up on accommodation issues as we go through, but I would like to continue on this promotion — not direct deposit, but the promotion. You state in official.… When it was announced, it was going to be just until March 29. That's why I was surprised you were going to carry out handing out the goodies after that.

[1525]

I noticed that in the information that went to staff about this, the materials were going to be shipped to ministry offices, to government agents and also to trusted third parties. What would a trusted third party be in this scenario?

Hon. C. Richmond: We did send some materials to government agents. The trusted third parties are people who work with these people and who do administer their cheques. I don't have a list of names for you right at hand, but I can probably dig that out for you. But they're people who we have contracts with who do administer cheques for people. There are lots of other trusted third parties. The Salvation Army comes to mind as one.

But I also don't think the member should get hung up on the fact that we were going to run the program till the end of March. We still have supplies left. We did put a date in there to urge people to get in before the end of the year or to get in as quickly as possible and get their funds transferred. As long as we have supplies of these items, we'll continue pushing the program.

C. Trevena: I hope I'm not belabouring this, but these supplies — the socks and the T-shirts and the travel mugs — are there for people who sign up for direct deposit. They are there as a benefit directly for making that move from getting your cheque monthly to getting your cheque monthly transferred to your bank account. So I wonder why the Salvation Army would have these supplies, because they don't issue cheques, nor do they sign people up for government benefits.

Hon. C. Richmond: I assume the member is referring to trusted third parties. We have one in Clearwater in the North Thompson. The Salvation Army will issue cheques on our behalf in a community in which they're located, and I would certainly look on them as a trusted third party. I don't know if that answers the question, as I understand it.

[1530]

C. Trevena: How much does it cost to issue and distribute the cheques in the regular way, and how much did it cost to do it by electronic transfer?

Hon. C. Richmond: We don't have an exact cost of what it costs to administer each cheque, but the electronic deposit is a fraction of what it would cost to administer it personally — print a cheque and hand it out — which we do in so many cases now. The other thing is that it's done by the provincial treasury. Like I say, it's a fraction of the cost, but it's far more secure.

We recently came across a scam being operated in Burnaby where people are using identity tools to print up cards. Let me back up a little bit. They find out who is getting cheques in the mail. The cheques were being stolen out of the mailboxes before the recipient could get to them. These people had the apparatus for making identity cards. They would then make a card that fit that particular cheque and go down and cash the cheque. So we want to put a stop to that, and one way to do that is with electronic transfer of funds.

C. Trevena: I'm very surprised you don't actually have the cost of how much it costs to issue cheques manually or how much the cost is for direct deposit, to do it electronically. I would like those figures, if those can be found.

Hon. C. Richmond: To be quite honest, we don't have a number to issue each cheque manually. We simply don't have that number. But we know that it's just a fraction of the cost of having the provincial treasury issue the cheques. There is just no comparison, and it eliminates a lot of the possibility of theft, and it takes away from the workload of the person that has to sit there at that front counter on cheque-issue day.

I've watched them file through the cheques to pick out a cheque and hand it to somebody. Once the cheque is handed to that person, then you have no idea where it's going to end up. We know where a lot of it's going to end up, but it's much more secure if we can get it into a bank account for them. We will give them an ID. A lot of people don't have identification. We'll make sure that they have identification, and then they can go to an automatic teller machine and take out enough cash to see them through the day or the next few days. But it does take it out of their hands and away from a lot of these predators who prey on them every month.

[ Page 3302 ]

C. Trevena: You know that it's going to save money, but you don't know how much money it's going to save. Will the ministry have those savings to use, or will they be going into general revenues — however much this vague saving is?

Hon. C. Richmond: Any money that we can save through efficiencies will go back into serving our clients.

C. Trevena: What will you be spending this money on? Would it, perhaps, be — as we've discussed before — possibly looking at an increase in rates?

Hon. C. Richmond: To be absolutely technical, that question pertains to future government policy and is therefore out of order. But who would know at this time precisely what you're going to spend this money on? We will spend it where it's needed.

[1535]

C. Trevena: Minister, we are discussing the budget here, and this was a promotion that came under the 2005-2006 budget, at which point there must have been someone in the department looking at how much the promotion was going to cost, what the cost benefits were going to be — not the psychological or any other benefits, but the cost benefits to the ministry — projecting how many people are going to go on direct debit and looking at how much money that would then free up for use in other programs.

I don't think we're talking about future policy. I think we're talking about, literally, money that was saved in this process that can be used for, as you say, other services. I just wanted to know what use you have budgeted that money for.

The Chair: Excuse me, minister. Just a second, please.

Member, there is a subtle difference between directly addressing the minister and going through the Chair. So would you please kindly direct your questions through the Chair.

Hon. C. Richmond: The savings by going through there are a secondary benefit to this program. I think we lose the focus, or people over there or others seem to lose the focus of this program and what it's for. It's for the protection of our clients — the most vulnerable of our clients. That was the impetus behind this program. It was not to save money.

Yes, we will save some money. It will not be a large amount, and I can't tell you right now exactly what we will use it for, but we'll use it for the good of our clients.

C. Trevena: Thank you, Madam Chair. I apologize for not using the right approach.

So if I might ask the minister: on the figures that are there in the service plan that we have, the figures of the ministry…. In these figures we have executive and support service. The budget has shrunk from $168.6 million down to $21.4 million. I wondered why this change has been made.

Hon. C. Richmond: I will see if I can get this straight; it gets quite technical.

The salary and benefits, travel, professional services, office and business expenses, information systems, amortization and building occupancy charges were allocated to fully reflect the cost of providing service by the core business area. This increases accountability for results by more accurately and completely reporting costs by core business area.

The change provides for better budget transparency and accountability and brings the ministry in line with the standard approach of other ministries. So the service plan this year reflects the new way we have restated the executive and support services budget.

[1540]

The next question would be: why did the executive and support services budget increase? It increased by $400,000 due to an increase in the employee benefits rate from 24 percent to 25.6 percent, and increases in the CAS, BCBC and legal fees allocation.

C. Trevena: Basically, the money's just been redistributed into different program areas. Is that what we're saying?

Hon. C. Richmond: That's correct.

C. Trevena: This, then, means that we have a lump sum going to different programs, but no breakdown for how much is being spent on programming and how much is being paid in transport, salaries and so on, which we used to be able to see. Since that information isn't in the service plan, I wondered whether the minister would be able to tell me how much was spent on executive and support services last year and how much is going to be spent in the subsequent three years.

Hon. C. Richmond: I've got two pages of numbers here on ministry operations — employment programs, temporary assistance, disability and supplementary assistance, employment and assistance tribunal appeal, executive and support services, minister's office, corporate services — and it's all here in the supplement to the estimates, fiscal year ending March 31, 2007.

C. Trevena: To the minister: I thank him for that. I'll double-check those figures, have a look at them and, if I have any further queries, come back to him on that.

Moving on to one of the areas where obviously it is one of the prime areas of concern for the ministry, I wanted to talk a bit about the job programs. I know that the ministry is changing its approach on employment programs. But first, one of the figure questions. I see in the figures the money going into employment programs remains static from 2006 right through to 2009 at $93 million. I wondered why it's just a static figure there.

[ Page 3303 ]

Hon. C. Richmond: As nearly as I can grasp the question, it's: why has the employment program budget remained static, or is it going to remain static for the next three years?

I guess the best way I can answer is that the expected-to-work caseload has dropped by over 70,000 cases, and the persons-with-disabilities caseload has increased by over 16,000 cases since June 2001, so the makeup of our caseload is quite different than it was four years ago. Recognizing the shift in caseload composition, the ministry has refocused the employment programs. Base funding for employment programs for the employables has been slightly reduced to reflect the decreased caseload. In 2005-2006 employment programs received a one-time lift to restructure the programs.

[1545]

A new employment program, the B.C. employment program, which better focuses on the needs of our smaller employable caseload, will begin in '06-07. Funding for employment programs for persons with disabilities has increased by $1.2 million to $20.5 million. Funding for the community assistance program, focusing on individuals with multiple barriers, is being sustained at $7.5 million.

I guess the reason that we have shifted, as I said, is because our client makeup caseload has changed dramatically. But to answer why it's static over the next three years, I imagine it's because we project that the numbers now are not likely to change very much over the next three years.

C. Trevena: I'd like to talk a little bit about numbers and access to the system for a while, but if I can just focus on the various job programs and the changes that are coming in the pipe over the coming months.

I know that with the present job training programs…. I've been talking to a number of people about this, and there is a concern that people are being directed to jobs and job training programs that really aren't suitable for them, that are there…. They get the sense that they're just being pushed through to reduce caseload numbers, that the job training isn't suitable, that the jobs at the end aren't suitable.

If I can just give you some examples. There are some who have been pushed towards the private colleges rather than public colleges, some who then have to get a student loan, even though they're on income assistance. The screening process for those who are going through this process really isn't rigorous enough. There are people who just haven't got the life skills, haven't got the ability to take on some of these responsibilities — that they are being pushed through by these job training programs.

So I wanted to know whether this is something that is going to be addressed in the reshaping of the job training programs.

Hon. C. Richmond: An awful lot of things were taken into consideration when we set about to revamp the B.C. employment program. This was done in consultation with our service providers and our staff — many hours of consultative meetings. We listened to what they had to say, and they told us that some of the programs that were in effect — and maybe those are the programs that the member is speaking of — were just not suitable for people. So with the new B.C. employment program, which goes into effect about July 1…. In fact, the request for proposals is out now. It closes this Wednesday.

So in the next month, month and a half — April, May — we'll be evaluating those proposals and awarding contracts to our service providers.

[1550]

One of the things that is in the new B.C. employment program is the ability to tailor a program more to the individual's needs than in the past. We are working with a different caseload. We're working with people who are more difficult to place in employment. In fact, to put it another way, most of the easy ones are gone, and we're down to more…. Every person now requires more individual attention and will require different types of programs than we had in the past. This is why the change.

The information for the redesign, as I have said, was done in consultation with the stakeholders and staff, best practices from other jurisdictions, a comprehensive evaluation of the job placement and Training for Jobs programs — those two programs will now be rolled into one; instead of two different streams, there will be one — and by really examining the ministry data and caseload forecast. I'm sure that all concerned will find that the new B.C. employment program will be much better suited to tailoring courses for individuals than has been the case in the past.

C. Trevena: You mentioned that devising these new programs was done in consultation with other jurisdictions. Which other jurisdictions did you talk to?

Hon. C. Richmond: The information you requested, I am told, was listed in the RFP, the request for proposal, but we don't happen to have it with us. I'd be happy to get it for you and bring it back or mail it to you or whatever.

C. Trevena: I would very much like that information to see what other provinces are doing and how the ministry has been influenced by this.

You also say that you're going to be doing a comprehensive evaluation of the programs that are wrapping up at this moment. If I might ask: who will be carrying out this evaluation, and what will you be looking at?

Hon. C. Richmond: Yes, an evaluation of the job placement program and training for jobs program was conducted by the Victoria Consulting Network — Peter Adams — and was submitted to the ministry in August of 2005. The evaluation was commissioned in September 2002 by the ministry to determine if the JP and TFJ programs moved clients into sustainable employment quicker than if they had not participated and to pro-

[ Page 3304 ]

vide advice on developing future employment programs.

The evaluation reported a number of successes, including the fact that the two programs assisted, at that time, over 30,000 clients to become independent from income assistance. Since the report was completed, this number has increased to over 45,000. The evaluation also showed that these programs benefited clients ready to work and those who required short-term skills training.

The evaluation suggested a few areas for improvement, particularly in the areas of program administration and the need for more flexible client service delivery, which I just mentioned. The ministry is adopting a number of improvements in the area of service delivery and reduction of the administrative workload, also in order to more effectively meet the client's needs in a caseload that has shifted over the past several years.

The ministry is moving to services delivered on an individualized basis. The ministry is developing its newest employment program, the B.C. employment program, which will be implemented in July 2006. Most of the evaluation's recommendations have been incorporated into the BCEP program design.

[1555]

Besides the recommendations from the evaluation, the ministry has used a variety of other sources to guide the development of the B.C. employment program. This includes consultation with stakeholders and ministry staff, best practices from other jurisdictions and ministry data and caseload forecasts.

C. Trevena: This was a report that was done some time ago. I remember when it came out. It was delayed in its publication for some time.

I wondered if there was going to be a sort of end-of-program wrap-up — let's look at where we went right, where we went wrong — or whether you feel that that report, which was done some time ago, is enough to answer the many questions about these employment programs.

Hon. C. Richmond: We've already done that. All that I just outlined was done before we issued the request for proposal for the new B.C. employment program.

C. Trevena: I thank the minister for that clarification.

Before I carry on with specific job training programs and how they're going to be developed over the coming months, I have a question. The minister has been talking about caseload forecasts as one of the ways of developing the programs. I wondered how the ministry assesses cases, how it takes in figures that are people who are coming to the ministry and asking for assistance, how it does this sort of forecasting and whether the ministry is actually keeping a record of everybody who comes to the ministry and is looking for assistance.

Hon. C. Richmond: The forecast model generates a baseline forecast of the B.C. employment and assistance caseload for up to five fiscal years into the future. The model generates the monthly caseload forecast by predicting how the caseload will change from the previous month. The five components analyzed are new out-of-province starting cases; new in-province starting cases; returning cases; stopping cases; and transferring cases — cases moving within the BCEA caseload. The module relies on a series of ordinary least squares — OLS; that's a new one on me — regression models to predict how each of the five components will change over time.

The current forecast model consists of hundreds of separate regressions, representing four programs and five family types, plus CIHR — child in the home of a relative — single men and single women. The forecast model is updated every month. The full budget caseload forecast is done as late as possible in order to obtain the most precision.

The model predicts that a 1-percent change in the unemployment rate will result in an approximate caseload change of 1,200 cases.

[1600]

C. Trevena: The statistic…. I think this is something that we talked about in our last estimates debate, and I just wanted to find out if things have changed, I guess. Whether the ministry is predicting its caseload by looking at everybody who is coming to the ministry — everyone who comes and picks up that 1-800 number and starts a request or people who come to the door, if they can come to the door, or who complete the Internet access, the people who are making that contact with the ministry…. I wondered if this is part of the caseload prediction.

Hon. C. Richmond: We have preapplications, which give us a sense of what's coming. We can see how the trend goes in preapplications, but the five components I mentioned are what we use, basically, to base our forecasting on. Those are out-of-province; new in-province starting cases; returning cases; stopping cases; and transferring cases — cases moving within the BCEA caseload.

I should add that there are some people who get as far as the preapplication process, and that's as far as we ever see them. They either find a job, or they move or something, but we don't see them show up on our caseload.

C. Trevena: I'll come back to what happens to the "or something." I wanted to pick up with the minister something that he said in his answer to the previous question about the drop in figures in relativity to the unemployment rate. I'm sure the minister is well aware of the report that was published today about people's access to assistance. In that, the regression they have shows that if unemployment was one of the sole predicators for getting assistance, the number of people on assistance would be 50 percent higher than it is at the moment.

I wondered how the minister squares this. It's clearly not just being done through employment.

[ Page 3305 ]

Hon. C. Richmond: I think what the member is after is an economic analysis of how we use unemployment rates, etc. We have done such a thing as a response to the report that came out today — which was no surprise, by the way. It's the same report that comes out every year about this time, and it contained almost the same information as their last report.

The report claims that the unemployment rate is the strongest predictor of the caseload. This information is used to argue that half of the caseload declined as a result of policy and not the economy. This is totally incorrect. The employment rate is a very weak predictor of the caseload, for many reasons. This is the case not just in B.C. but across Canada.

What is important is the change in employment and the total economic environment — sustained growth. Unemployment rates go up and down frequently, even when the economy is improving. In 2002, for example, the unemployment rate went up, yet the number of employed rose by 44,000. In that year B.C. experienced a very large increase in the participation rate — 64 percent to 65.1 percent. Many people on income assistance left for employment, while many more started to look for work.

[1605]

It is the two- or three-year trend in employment that matters, not the individual unemployment rate. People will leave the caseload for employment or not need assistance if they feel optimistic about the economy. Also, it is not the overall employment rate that is important to income assistance clients but employment in the selected sectors — namely, sales and services. Employment in these sectors has been strong.

This is pertaining to this report that came out today. Their model is very poor. The average error rate is nearly 10 percent. They predicted increases in the caseload in three of the six months — half the time — when in fact the caseload never increased.

C. Trevena: I'm not going to get into the games of defending or not defending a report that we had no involvement in writing. However, I think that it does actually have some very important information, and that is about the lack of information there and the fact that many people — and many people who I have met in going around the province — aren't getting assistance because of various regulations under the 2002 act.

The minister says the unemployment correlation is totally incorrect, but if people aren't coming to the system because they are being kept off the system, it is, again, an Alice-in-Wonderland scenario of: how are we tracking people, and how can we justify this?

In the ministry's service plan it says, on the job programs and employment plans, that research indicates that individualized employment plans, detailing specific job search activities and commitments as a condition of continued assistance benefit families and individuals over the long term. I would like to ask the minister: what research shows this?

[1610]

Hon. C. Richmond: I think I've got the gist of the member's question, but I'm not sure. I want to make it clear, though, that we're talking about those who are expected to work. I know there's a lot of confusion when a report, as mentioned, comes out for the Centre for Policy Alternatives, because a lot of people have difficulty separating the different categories of clients we have.

These are those people that are expected to work. I'll read from the paragraph that I believe the member was quoting from:

This group of clients includes individuals who are capable of employment, have met eligibility criteria such as a three-week work search and have ongoing employment-related obligations. Expected-to-work clients have to maintain individualized employment plans detailing specific job search activities commitments as a condition of continued assistance.

Research indicates that this approach

benefits families and individuals over the long term by breaking the intergenerational cycle of welfare dependency and ending the cycle-on, cycle-off pattern that many clients have experienced. Expected-to-work clients compromise 17 percent of the ministry's caseload.

But since the report from the Centre for Policy Alternatives has been mentioned, just let me add that this centre has had a longstanding history of disagreeing with employment-based programs. They just do not happen to believe in them. That's no surprise, because the same thing is in every report that they do every year.

We happen to believe that employment-based programs for those expected to work and those able to work are the best thing that we can do for people to break that cycle of entitlement and dependence to one of employment and self-reliance. One of the most difficult things we had to do as a government was change that culture of entitlement to one of independence.

If we don't use this philosophy in dealing with those who are able to work, we will never break this cycle of welfare dependence. We are now, in this province, into four generations of welfare families. We're into the fourth generation, in some cases, of welfare dependence, and the only way we're going to break that cycle is by the programs we have put in place. They've been very successful. We've put some 46,000 people off the welfare rolls and back into employment.

We're talking, again, just about those who are capable of working and those who should be working. It has always been and will remain a strong focus of this government, even though I know there are those who are opposed to income-based programs.

There are those who would have us return to the good old days of the mid-90s, when we had 375,000 people on welfare in this province, and that's just unacceptable. People who are able to work and are expected to work do not have a choice of saying: "I'd rather stay on welfare." They have a choice of getting into one of our job programs. They've been very successful, and that's the choice we're trying to give them.

Only 40 percent of children from income-assisted families graduate from high school. Equally alarming is

[ Page 3306 ]

the fact that children who grow up on welfare are statistically more likely to depend on welfare in their adult lives and receive six times the amount of assistance than a person raised by working parents. We still feel that not only is it the best thing we can do for the parents — get them back into employment and independence — but it's the best thing we can do for their children — make sure that their parents have a steady source of income.

[1615]

C. Trevena: I think that we're, in many ways, going to be repeating some of our debate from last week when there was the question of the culture of entitlement or not. At the time, I raised with the minister that access to welfare is an entitlement. It is a right in a civilized society that if somebody is in need, they have the right to assistance. They don't have the right to have to be looking for work. It is a right. It is an entitlement.

The minister didn't answer my question, I believe. I was asking what research his own service plan based this comment on. I was making no reference to the report that was published today. I was referring to his own service plan.

Hon. C. Richmond: The research I talked about was in-house research based on our own findings.

I do want to respond. Income assistance is a right in this province. There's no question about that. Again, to counter some of the statements made by the Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives, we don't turn people away from this ministry. If someone comes who is in a crisis situation…. If they don't have food or they don't have shelter, we provide it for them. That's what we're there for.

Then we determine what category this person falls under. Are they a person with disabilities? Are they a person with multiple barriers to employment? Or are they just temporarily out of work? They're expected to work. They're able to work. Then we can determine exactly what assistance they need.

If someone's expected to work and that's the category we're talking about, we will provide them with a crisis grant if that is the requirement. If they don't have any food, don't have any shelter…. But they will still be expected to go out and continue with their work search for three weeks, and they will either find a job or they will be put into one of our employment programs.

We don't deny people. We just assist them. We'd rather give them a hand up than a handout, if that is what is required. There are innumerable statistics to prove our point. Studies of employment-focused welfare programs compared to human capital development programs show that employment programs lead to greater wage growth, higher incomes and reduced future spells on income assistance.

C. Trevena: I don't want to be diverted too long from the issue of job programs, and I want to come back to some of these other issues. However, if I might ask the minister, on the specifics of the programs that have been in place since 2002: if it is a right for people to get assistance and if people who are desperate have that right, why is there a rule that imposes a three-week wait?

I say this because by the time people get to applying for welfare, they've not planned it, saying: "In three weeks I'm going to need welfare." By the time they get to that stage, they are desperate. They may have been looking for work up to that point. I also ask why, if welfare is a right — as it should be — there is the two-year independence test.

I'll cite an example that was quoted to me in Vernon, where there were two brothers who were applying for assistance. One had been in jail, and one hadn't. The one who had been in jail was eligible for assistance under these rules, but the one who hadn't was not eligible for assistance because he didn't qualify under the two-year independence test.

I would like to ask the minister: how, in this the only province where there is basically jobfare rather than welfare…? If the minister could tell me how he can say that it's still a right to get welfare.

Hon. C. Richmond: First of all, with the three-week work search, income assistance for those who are employable and expected to work is intended to be a program of last resort. The three-week work search ensures that applicants pursue employment and other resources before relying on income assistance.

[1620]

People who find a job on their own are better off than they would be on income assistance. In fact, our mathematics shows that if a person even works two days a week at the minimum wage, that person is better off than being on income assistance.

The ministry has always provided exemptions for this requirement, as I said earlier, and has continued to develop these to ensure that appropriate exemptions are provided to this requirement. I'll repeat: we do not turn away anyone who is in a crisis situation. If they are desperate, they don't have food and they don't have shelter, they get looked after. But they still must do the job search for three weeks.

On the question of the two-year independence, there is a lot of discretion to the exemption lists to waive the two-year requirement. It's not hard and fast. But I would suggest that there are some conditions that, due to factors beyond people's control, they could not have achieved two consecutive years of financial independence.

One would be the person, the member mentioned, being in jail — it would be pretty hard for someone in jail for two years to provide two consecutive years of financial independence, but not if they had been independent before that — and the applicant would experience undue hardship if eligibility were denied. Again, our front-line workers have the discretion to make decisions about these people if undue hardship would occur if they were denied.

Individuals have to meet the two-year financial independence requirement only once in their lifetime. If recipients have met this requirement once, it is not

[ Page 3307 ]

applied again if they reapply for assistance in the future. For an applicant who meets the criteria but is unable to provide verification documents, signed declarations will be accepted — for example, describing previous employment history, employment earnings and employment duration and attempts to obtain documents.

Must all individuals meet this requirement? The answer is no. There are 12 categories of persons who are exempt, and persons with disabilities are not required to meet this at all. Again, we're talking about those able to work. This includes individuals who are 18 years old and have approved persons-with-disability status. We've already said that.

The two-year requirement does not apply to applicants who are pregnant or have dependent children, including foster children and children in the home of relatives, who are under 19 years of age; who have been supported by an employed spouse or are caring for a disabled spouse; who have been incarcerated for at least six months of the two-year period immediately preceding the date of application, which handles the person that was in jail; who have been in care until their 19th birthday, are fleeing familial or spousal abuse, or have a medical condition or persistent multiple barriers to employment; or who have a two-year diploma, bachelor's degree or higher.

C. Trevena: I think the minister misunderstood my example about the person who had been in jail. He was eligible to not have the two-year independence test, and it was his brother, who had been honest and law-abiding his whole life but hadn't been able to find work, that didn't meet the two-year independence test. So there seemed to be an inequality there.

On the three-week wait period. That's 21 days when you have already run down all…. You've maxed out credit cards, if you've got credit cards. You've spent everything. You've spent as much time as you can with friends.

I wanted to ask the minister whether he can find the information for me, because I imagine that the minister won't have it at the moment, about how many cases there have been where the three-week wait has exceeded three weeks.

[1625]

Hon. C. Richmond: I don't know if I can answer the question precisely for the member, but I'll try. First of all, just let me reiterate, and I have it here in writing:

If an individual has an emergency situation such as an eviction notice or hydro disconnection notice, or has an urgent need for food, shelter or a medical prescription, the client is given an expedited application.

So we wouldn't make a person in a crisis situation do the three-week work search and wait for income assistance.

The ministry recently made changes to the application process to better serve people who come to the ministry for assistance, so that our staff and people in need can begin to work together immediately. Because staff are now able to collect information when people first contact the ministry, they are able to touch base with applicants sooner — and better assist them with their three-week work search and preparation for their application interview.

The new process provides more information

upfront to applicants. The ministry provides information about other resources that may be available to a client. This may lead to more individuals self-selecting out of the application process if they are not likely to be eligible for assistance. For example, the applicant may have assets in excess of allowable limits — that is fairly common — or may be receiving income from a Workers Compensation Board claim.

It is better for a client to be able to assess this

before going through the entire application process only to find that they are ineligible. The ministry also provides information about what documentation is required for an applicant to apply for assistance. The three-week work search also ensures that applicants have time to gather the necessary documentation.

Finally, the ministry has formalized its

procedure in regards to a 14-day touch-back, and this was done in November 2005. This means staff will follow up with individuals 13 days after their initial contact to provide further guidance, obtain a work search report and set up an employment for an application interview for those persons who wish to proceed with an application. This service is provided regardless of how initial contact was made — in person, phone or Internet.

So we do everything within our means to make sure that the person can get through that three-week job search in three weeks.

C. Trevena: I wonder if the minister could provide me with figures, statistics on the number of people who have not had assistance within the three-week time limit.

Hon. C. Richmond: We don't have exact numbers of how many people took longer than three weeks. What I can tell you is that by far the most common reasons for denial of assistance — or cases closed without payment — are either a refusal on the part of the applicant client to provide necessary information to the ministry or a client with income in excess. Quite often we find out that they have an automobile that's worth more than $5,000, or they have a considerable amount of money in a bank or in savings certificates, etc., and the application ends right there. But in most cases it's because they have not provided us with the information requested.

[1630]

C. Trevena: Madam Chair, maybe I'm not making myself clear enough. I don't necessarily want the answer today, but I wonder if the minister could provide me with the numbers of people who've applied successfully for assistance but who have had to wait for longer than three weeks to get their assistance.

Hon. C. Richmond: I can tell the member that I don't believe we have those numbers. We can work on it, but we don't keep such statistics.

C. Trevena: I would very much appreciate it if staff could work on that, because I think it would be an in-

[ Page 3308 ]

teresting statistic. I'll come back to some of these issues later on. I did want to talk a bit more about the job programs rather than the access to them. I'm very interested in coming back to some of these issues — about the two-year independence test, the three-week time limit and other areas around this. So possibly, as the evening and days progress, the minister and I can continue this discussion.

First, I wanted to go back to the issue of the job programs. The service plan of the ministry for the coming years says that service providers are selected using a procurement and performance-based contract management process. I wonder if the minister could explain what this means and what the performance base is.

[S. Hawkins in the chair.]

Hon. C. Richmond: I think I've got the question right. In our service plan, it says that employment programming is delivered through community-based external service providers. Service providers are selected using a procurement and performance-based contract management process designed to ensure the selection process is fair, transparent and accountable. So we use the provincial purchasing guidelines of government.

The RFPs are put on B.C. Bid, and then they are evaluated. The proponents who are successful in the competitive contracting process have been assessed against evaluation criteria and identified as the service providers best able to perform the work. Compensation is based partly on their ability to achieve specified client outcomes.

C. Trevena: I wonder if the minister could tell me what the performance base is on which these contracts are based.

[1635]

Hon. C. Richmond: Under the current program, contractors are paid only if clients are placed in jobs and become independent of income assistance. Under the new program, it's more of a fee-for-service and an incentive for results. But they are still expected to perform up to the standards set by the ministry.

C. Trevena: One of the main differences between the existing employment programs and the ones that are coming in is a change in the billing from pay-per-client to a fee-for-service.

Hon. C. Richmond: That is correct.

C. Trevena: When the minister was reading into the record a moment ago sections of the service plan, he read that compensation for the service providers is based partly on their ability to achieve specified client outcomes. I wonder if the minister could explain what their specified client outcomes are and if the minister could explain what else the compensation is based upon.

[1640]

Hon. C. Richmond: I think I can answer the member's question. It does get a little complicated.

First of all, the service providers must take 95 percent of our clients — minimum. A certain percentage will be directed to work search and, hence, into a job. Another percentage will be directed to training programs and, thence, into a job.

There's a bonus for the service providers relative to the standard who get jobs. The standard is the previous experience of our caseload. They also, in the new B.C. employment program, must use a minimum of 25 percent of community-based service providers.

C. Trevena: I wonder if the minister would be able to explain what he means when he says that there is a bonus for service providers in relation to the jobs.

Hon. C. Richmond: The best answer I can give the member is that all this information is contained in the RFP, which is on B.C. Bid at the moment. It hasn't closed yet. It's all outlined in there, the range of bonuses. All of that information is on there, but a lot of that is still to be negotiated with the successful applicants. The bids close the day after tomorrow, and then the bonus within a range will be negotiated with the staff and the service provider.

C. Trevena: So this is for the new program. It's not for the existing program that there is the bonus. First, if you could answer that.

Secondly, are we talking about a monetary bonus? I'll do my thirdly when you answer.

Hon. C. Richmond: Yes, it's a performance-based bonus, and it's monetary.

C. Trevena: I wonder if the minister could tell me how much has been budgeted for these bonuses.

Hon. C. Richmond: The amount budgeted for the entire program is $35 million, and the amount budgeted for bonuses is very small. I can't give you a figure today because the contracts haven't been finalized or negotiated, but it's a very small amount.

C. Trevena: Again, I'm a little concerned. We're talking about something that is quite a large proportion of the budget, but the minister doesn't have a breakdown of how that budget is going to be spent. I would like to ask the minister if we can have that information as soon as it is available.

[1645]

Hon. C. Richmond: The answer is yes.

C. Trevena: I would like to ask the minister if he can explain how a program that is being based on fee-for-service is going to have bonuses for meeting or exceeding targets. I would have thought that was a con-

[ Page 3309 ]

tradiction. So maybe the minister would be able to explain that to me.

Hon. C. Richmond: It's basically a fee-for-service for the services that they provide. During the course of taking this individual from income assistance to a job placement program, they will perform various services along the way and be paid as they perform those services. The bonuses would come due if they exceed the standard that has been set or exceed the expectations based on our data and what we expect of them. Of course, they will know the standard and what is expected, and if they exceed that standard, then there is a bonus involved.

C. Trevena: I wonder whether I could ask the minister whether the standards and expectations are based on numbers of people going through the system or what the standards are.

Hon. C. Richmond: Once the service provider has provided all the expected services and been paid a fee for those expected services, then the standard is on employment. Were they successful in placing this person on employment? That will be based on our history we have with the previous program over the last four years. Ongoing, it will be historical as to what percentage or how many people are placed on employment as compared to those who start the program and those who come out the other end and are employed. That's what the bonuses will be based on.

C. Trevena: I'd like to ask the minister what scrutiny there will be about the employment that people go into, on which these bonuses are based.

[1650]

Hon. C. Richmond: The service providers have to report to us on a regular basis as to the progress they are having with the clients. The clients also report back to us. As well, there are periodic assessments and audits done on the program to see how it is progressing.

C. Trevena: If I might ask the minister: who will be conducting the audits?

Hon. C. Richmond: We will use a combination of third-party auditors and staff. The staff, if they do any auditing, will be independent of the program. They will be staff that are not involved with the program. Even when we do internal assessments, we may in a lot of cases have them audited by a third party.

I should add: I was asked today in the media scrum if we would ask the Auditor General to audit these programs. My answer to that is that the Auditor General can look at any government program he or she decides to do, and if he decides to audit these programs, he would have our full cooperation.

C. Trevena: That is a comfort — that there are going to be these audits — because I think we are all agreed that there was a problem with oversight of the previous contracts.

On the RFP for the new contracts it says that there's going to be a flat fee of $100 per client payable at the end of the month following the completion of client intake on notification to the ministry that the referred client has either been accepted into a B.C. employment program or returned to the ministry. I just wondered whether the minister could say whether that means that the contractors are going to get $100 if the client proceeds, or whether the contractor is going to get the $100 just by being introduced to the program.

Hon. C. Richmond: The $100 per client is for an assessment fee which they have to do on every client, and they are obliged to take 95 percent of the clients. They may return 5 percent to the ministry because they figure that they are ineligible for their program, and this may be the case, in which case, then, we have to decide which program they should go into — possibly a CAP program for some basic training. But, yes, they get $100 per client for doing that assessment on our behalf.

C. Trevena: That sparks two questions for me. One is: you have the budget for the whole program, and you've got the budget of $100 per client coming through each individual program…. I wondered whether you have the budget for how much it's going to be. You can't give me how much the bonus is going to be, but you know that you're going to start off by giving $100 per client. If the minister can provide a bit more of a breakdown about how the $30 million-plus is going to be spent on these employment programs, I would appreciate it.

[1655]

Hon. C. Richmond: To the member: I would refer her to pages 23 and 24 of the RFP. It spells it out fairly succinctly there: a flat fee of $100 for each client accepted in the B.C. employment program as a participant or returned to the ministry; no payment for no-shows. Directed work search fee is a flat fee of $500 per participant leaving the directed work search. Then the next box is individualized service fee. Fee based on service modules — e.g., life skills, pre-employment services. The average maximum limit for all modules combined is $1,600 per participant, measured in aggregate.

Participant support reimbursements, maximum average payment. Average maximums measured in aggregate for each component is $100 per participant; individualized services, $220 per participant. Reimbursements based on actual costs incurred, billing, etc. Aggregate performance not applicable. Management fee as proposed. Directed work search fee as proposed. Individualized services, which I've just run through….

And then the aggregate performance incentive payment, based on the aggregate reduction of cohort dependence on income assistance compared to a benchmark. Maximum limit up to 3 percent of all the

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fees paid to service providers, excluding participant supports. First payment made within 24 months after contract commencement, then quarterly thereafter.

C. Trevena: If I might ask, what is…? The minister has given us an average cost per client under the new program. I wondered if you could tell me what the average cost is of the current program that's running at the moment.

Hon. C. Richmond: We'll have get that number for you and give it to you. I can't give you an exact number of an average, but it's roughly the same as the new program. It's very close to the same cost per client, but we'll have to get that answer — possibly within the next hour or hour and a half. We don't have it right at the moment.

C. Trevena: I thank the minister for that. I appreciate that.

I just wanted, again, a comparative figure. We have, obviously, the cost of the new employment programs. I just want to know what the value of existing contracts is under the existing system and how many contracts have been issued.

[1700]

Hon. C. Richmond: I think I have found the numbers that the member is after. We had one service provider just under $3 million, another one at $72.6 million, another one at $7.9 million and the largest at $101 million. This does not include the windup costs of the program. But this is for six years — from 2000-2001, '01-'02, '02-'03, '03-'04, '04-'05 and '05-'06. But we don't have the windup costs yet.

C. Trevena: Just a quick clarification. Those are the cumulative figures. They're not for each year right the way through.

Hon. C. Richmond: Yes, it's for a total…. It's for job placement only — JP2, as it's called — and they're cumulative figures for those years.

C. Trevena: I thank the minister for that. I'm still intrigued how the breakdown of the systems past, existing and future work. For instance, I know that one of the preauthorized companies — preauthorized because they're an existing company — the West Coast Group, can continue working on the employment programs in the new system, as I understand it. I just wanted to get a confirmation that that is the case.

[1705]

Hon. C. Richmond: Just let me correct one thing I said on the last set of figures. Those were cumulative figures for JP1 and JP2. I said JP2 only, but it's for both.

To answer the last question, the RFQ, request for qualification, was posted to prequalify service providers as the first step in the competitive procurement process. The RFP, however, is the process by which the ministry then selects proponents to manage a delivery service — for example, performance management and reporting finance administration — in nine service bundles against a set criteria. Those selected as proponents can then contract prequalified service providers to deliver front-line services.

The ministry selected 25 percent as the minimum requirement for proponents when selecting prequalified service providers in order to strike a balance between recognizing and supporting the important involvement of community-based organizations in the local service delivery while allowing proponents sufficient flexibility in managing the overall contract for a service delivery bundle.

C. Trevena: The West Coast Group was preauthorized in the RFQ. Is it possible to say whether it is there as one of the ones that is bidding for the new programs?

Hon. C. Richmond: They have to prequalify before they can bid on the RFP, and a total of 186 service providers prequalified under the RFQ process.

C. Trevena: As I understand it, the West Coast Group was one of those that did qualify under the preauthorization process, the prebid process, and I wanted to know whether the minister can say whether the West Coast Group is one of the ones that is part of the mix in this new system.

Hon. C. Richmond: No, I can't say, because the RFP process doesn't close till the day after tomorrow, so I'm not at liberty. In fact, I don't know anyway, and that's just as well.

C. Trevena: If we can just look, then, at the present employment program. I think we're in a little bit of a difficulty with bringing in the new programs right at the moment with the RFP closing in two days' time and with us doing the questions on the budget at the moment, which is somewhat problematic.

If I might look at the previous system, the West Coast Group is a large organization involved in employment programs, and I know that the West Coast Group has donated over $61,000 to the B.C. Liberal Party in the last four years. It has also donated to the NDP. I know that it runs Job Wave and Triumph and other programs.

What's interesting is that Job Wave is also operating in Ontario. Just in relation to our earlier conversation, in Ontario Job Wave is going to be helping people off welfare after they've been on welfare for a year, not after three weeks.

I just wanted to get a little bit of clarification. I understand that, in certain cases, Job Wave has received well over $4,000 for working with clients. I cite one specific case, which came from a freedom-of-information request by a reporter that found that the person found work very quickly with very little assistance from Job Wave, and yet Job Wave still received almost $5,000 for working with him.

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I would like to ask the minister: what sort of controls are there at the moment to make sure that the programs working with clients, with individuals who are looking for work, are actually working specifically with those individuals, and they are not just individuals passing through the system?

[1710]

Hon. C. Richmond: Yes, the West Coast Group is a large group, and they do good work. They're getting larger, and they intend to expand across the country. As you said, I do believe they're now in Ontario. Ontario likes the work they were doing, so they want to expand — probably right across the country. I don't know what their goals are. I have no idea.

In order for any company to spend more than the allotted amount on an individual client, they have to get permission from the ministry to do that. But they also work on averages. There are some clients that may take very little