VOL. 1 PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD: 10:00 a.m. - ] :00 p.m . FRIDAY, JUNE 18, 1982 NO. 25

June 18,1982 Tape No. 1456 The House met at 10.00 a.m . Mr.Speaker in the Chair. MR.SPEAKER (Russell): Order, please! STATEMENTS BY MINISTERS ah-1 MR. SPEAKER: MS.VERGE: The hon. Minister of Education. Mr. Speaker, schools throughout Newfoundland and Labrador close the 1981/82 school year today. One hundred and thirty-six thousand kindergarten to grade X students will start Summer vacation tomorrow while 9200 grade eleven students prepare to write public exams in 200 centres across the Province during the period from June 21st to June 30th.

This year's Grade Xl students will be the last graduates from the old two year senior high school programme. Those who do not pass Grade Xl this year will have two additional opportunities·to comp~ete graduation requirements through supplementary exams written in November 1982 and June 1983. The next full class of graduates from the Province's high schools will be in June 1984. The students graduating in that year will have comple -ted three years of the new senior high school programme which was introduced last September.

The new senior high school programme is one of the most significant improvements to take place in our education system for many years. Next year thirty-two new high school courses will be available in addition to the forty-four courses introduced this year. These new courses are in the subject areas of Art, Business Education, English, Literature, Family Studies, Industrial Education, Mathematics, Music, Physical Education, Theatre Arts, Religious Education, Computer Studies, Science and Social Studies. During the third year of the programme additional courses will be introduced in all major curriculum areas.

Besides the improvements 30Br'l

June 18,1982 Tape No. 1456 ah-2 MS.VERGE: in the senior high school programme considerable curriculum development is taking place at all levels from primary through junior high schools. Curriculum materials approved for use in the primary,elementary and junior high school grade s include new courses and test materials in Art, Health, English, French , Science and Music . In addition the department has established new policies on the teaching o£ written language in the elementary grades and completed work on the development of new cu~iculum guides for kindergarten .

Both programmes are scheduled for introduction in September 1983 following extensive in-service for teachers in the coming school year. I want to recognize the efforts of teachers and school board personnel who have served voluntarily on curriculum committees to development these improvements in our school curricula and the 308 .,

June 18, 1982 Tape 1457 PK - 1 MS. VERGE: hundreds of professional educators throughout the Province who have worked hard to ensure the smooth implementation of a major curriculum changes introduced this year. This co-operation and interest is ~~~ential for sound curriculum development and implementation. The recent Budget speech announced provisions for spending which again demonstrate our government's commitment to improving primary , elementary, and high school education in Newfoundland and Labrador.

These provisions include the following :School construction funds­ $22.8 million for new school buildings and extensions to existing facilities; Increased operating grants for school boards-an across-the-board increase of about 12 per cent plus a $2.5 million fund to be distributed to school boards most in need; A fund to subsidize school board purchases­ $400,000 for equipment for new high school courses~ Provision _s of salaries for more teachers in relation to the number of students - Government is implementing a three -year plan to reduce the pupil-teacher ratio which by 1983 will provide 460 new teaching positions and retain 295 additional positions that would have been dropped in proportion to the decline in student enrollment.

These provisions reflect government's full recognition of the profound impact of education on the intellectual,emotional and cultural development of young people. Mr. Speaker, I am sure that all hon. members would like to join with me in extending best wishes to students and teachers for an enjoyable Summer vacation period. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! 30R?

June 18, 1982 MR. SPEAKER (Russell): au Port. MR. HODDER: Tape 1457 PK - 2 The han. member for Port Mr. Speaker, we too on this side of the House would congratulate all students who are graduating. We wish them well in their Summer vacations. MR. NEA~Y : I have three of those. MR. HODDER: ~nd it is particularly to those students who are the last Grade XI graduates across the Province. Students in the next couple of years, the students that will be graduating after this year will be graduating from our schools with Grade XII.

There are still many bugs to be ironed out in the programme, particularly in our rural areas in many of our smaller schools in the Province. However, Mr. Speaker, we hope that the Grade XII programme will improve the quality of education and the quality of life in the Province. As far as the part of the statement which dealt with funding, we still in the Province have inadequate school buildings, inadequate equipnent and inadequate libraries.

And with all of the funds that we have put into education in the Province,we still find that most of the school boards in the Province are in financial difficulties and many of our schools are inadequately equipped. However, Mr. Speaker, I do hope that we will be able to give to the students in our high school programmes in all of the classes 30R1

June 18, 1982 Tape No. 1458 !>'IJ - 1 MR. J. HODDER: the type of education they deserve so that they will gro" ll'? to be l1etter Newfoundlanders and cc~tribute to the Province. MR. E. ROBERTS: MR . SPEAKER (Russell): of Belle Isle. ORAL QUESTIONS Mr. Speake_r. The hon. the member for the Strait MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, a question for the Minister of Justice (Mr. G. Ottenheimer) ,of which I gave him notice just before the House opened. The House will recall that the minister appointed the former Chief Justice of the Province, the hon. R. S.

Furlong, to consider and make recommendations as to whether any - I think I am stating it correctly - as to whether any prosecutions or other actions should be taken as a result of the report produced by Judge LeGrow into a fire that occurred at Elizabeth Towers a couple of years ago. I think it is very much in the public interest,if the minister would agree, that the matter be put to rest. So I will ask him whether he has as yet received a report from the hon. Mr.

Furlong, if he has not received it, has ' he any indication as to when he might receive it, and if he has not received it and has had no indication could he get in touch with Mr. Furlong and ask when it might be coming? It was some time ago,as I recall it, a matter of some months,and so I guess it is reasonable to expect that we should have the report shortly. MR . SPEAKER: MR. OTTENHEIMER: The hon. the Minister of Justice. Mr. Speaker, in answer to the question of the hon. the member for the Strait of Belle Isle (Mr. E. Roberts), l have not to date received the report from the former Chief Justice Furlong.

I understand that I will be receiving it within a two to three week period. And also I would 3 0 A 1,

June 18, 1982 Tape No . 1458 MJ - 2 MR. G. OTTENHEIMER : mention to the hon. member that I am quite sure that when I announce the appointment of the Chief Justice Fur lon g to review the material and make a report to me that I will in fact be making his report public after l have received it ancl have had an opportunit y to stud y it myself. But r expect to receive it \oJithin a two to three week period . MR . S. NEARY : MR . SPEAKER (Russell) : Opposition . MR . NEARY: Mr . Speaker . The hon . the Leader of the Mr. Speaker , I \otOuld like to direct a question to the Premier in co nn ect ion with the researc~t thilt has been goinq on no\/ 30A'i

J1IDe 18, 1982 Tape No. 1459 RA- 1 MR. Neary; for some time in connection with an aluminum smelter for this Province. The ministers, during the period the House was closed prior to the election,seemed to be spending an awful lot of time in California and in other places where the climate was a little better than it is in this Province around that time of the year.Could the han. gentleman tell the House if we are near getting an aluminum smelter in this Province, is the investigation still going on, are we still fund- ing the investigation at a decision? and how close are we to arriving MR.

SPEAKER(Russell): The han. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, there is an agreement between Anaconda Aluminum Limited of Louisville, Kentucky and the Government of Newfoundland through the Department of Development to jointly fund a study which was announced, I think it was announced in this House some time ago, a feasibility study on whether or not an aluminum smelter was a feasible activity or project to be pursuen. That joint feasibility study is still under way between Anaconda Aluminum and the Department of Development.

Their report I think is due in by December of this year,which will conslusiv­ ely indicate one way or the other as to whether there is the probability of locating an aluminum smelter in the Province. So that is where it is, I think the California connection to which the hon. member refers, I do not think it is directly related to the aluminum prospects that are on the horizon. The Hinister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) had spent some time in California promoting marketing of Newfoundland fish.I am not sure whether it was the Minister of Finance (Dr.

Collins) or the Minister of Devel­ oprrent(Mr.Windsor) who was in California for a brier period:-.o attend a seminar relating to offshore. But most of the activity that we have had as it relates to the 30R.fl

June 18, B82 Tape No . 1459 RA - 2 PnEl'IF.R PECKFORD : aluminum industry has been with Anaconda Aluminum out of Louisville, Kentucky. who are, by the way, a ,-u..>siuiary .:>f a larger corporation that is hP.~dauartered in California . MR. NEARY : A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR . SPEAKER(Russell) : A supplementary, the hon . Leader of the Opposition . MR . NEARY: What about the funding. Have the Committee studying this possibility of an aluminum smelter for Ne wfoundland, have they asked for additio nal fundin~? Is it on target? You know , are we running pretty well on

schedule as far as the cost is concer ned? 11~ . S!>EAKER : '!'he hon . the Premier . PREMIER PECKFORD : As far as I know.I will have to take the question as notic e in order to give a specific answer to the question,but as far as r am aware I think it is some-v1here in the neighbourhood of a half million dollars is the total cost- it could be $600,000; I do not know the exact figure off the top of my head -but I seem to remember it somewhe re in the $500,000 to $600,000 range . It is shared ,T think,~0/50 by Anaconda Aluminum 3nA7

~ .... June 18, 1982 Tape No. 1460 so - 1 PREMIER PECKFORD : and ourselves to finalize the study and there is a team set up representing Anaconda Aluminum and representing the Government of Newfoundland through the Department of Development. MR. NEARY: Final supplementary, Mr. Speaker. , MR. SPEAKER (Russell): Final supplementary, the hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, the proposal that an aluminum plant be established in this Province sort or ties in with the development of the Lower Churchill,or Muskrat Fall ·~ .

I think that the whole itJea of trving to attract this industry, which is a big user of electricity was to find a customer in Labrador or on the Island of Newfoundland for some of the pow·er to be generated at the Muskrat,or the Lower Churchill,and the surplus power to be exported to markets on the mainland and in the United States. If the report recommends in favour of an aluminum smelter, first of all, number one, where will it be located? Will it be in the Corner Brook area or will it be in the Goose Bay area?

And number two, will that then confirm the start-up of the Lower Churchill or Muskrat Falls hydro power development? 1-'.lR . SPEAKER : The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: First of all as it relates to location, Mr. Speaker, that is one of the things that the feasibility study is supposed to show as to where is the more appropriate location for the aluminum smelter. No final designation or site has been given and we will be looking to the committee to make recommendations in that regard. There are two sites which have been talked about most and that is in the Lake Melville area and in the Bay of Islands area.

There could possibly be others but those are two which have been mention ed most often. So the report, hopefully, will give us some guidance as to the appropriate location for such a smelter . 3f1RA ' ' .\ . ;.<t ;

i~ I June 18, 1982 Tape No . 1460 so - 2 PREMIER PECKFORD : secondly , as it relates to the access to power which 1.;ould be necessary for the industry , it is not clear whether in fact it would be Lov1er Churchill power or not that would be utilized in the establishment of the smelter . There is available a small amount of power from the existing Upper Churchill development on a re-call ba .sis on a year's notice . t-1R. NEARY : How many megawatts? Three hundred mega1.;atts?

PREMIER PECKFORD : I think we are entitled to , under the original contract of the Upper Churchill, somewhere around 300 or 400 mega1vatts ,and it is not all being used, apparently ,as I unde rstand it . There is some available . the exact amount ll'.ight be around 100 megawatts or so , that might be available . But in anv ~~~e t~0.re is Rome chea~ - MR . RORERTS : There are 300 the first time more megawatts . PREMIER PECKFORD : - power perhaps available there a small amount of it t.h~> t i-:; av.ail.ahte . t-tR . ROBERTS : Most was used in Hap?y Valley and the rest to the Iron Ore Co mpany of Canada .

PREMIER PECKFORD : If the t1ember for the Strait of Belle Isle ( l~r . Roberts will allow me to complete my ansl·mr, 30AQ

June 18, 1982 Tape 1461 NM - 1 PREMIER PECKFORD: I would like to give the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) some additional information. At the present moment,then,there is a small block of power available from the Upper Churchill, given if the government or the group give notice a year ahead of

schedule to access that additional recallable power. The whole question of the Lower Churchill and its use, and especially Muskrat Falls, is a great question mark today. The latest figures as they relate to the development of Muskrat Falls- or Gull Island for that matter, which is a cheaper source of power than Muskrat Falls- is a hig~ly question- able one,qiven the cost that that power would be even at site. It is much more likely that we would look more favourably althou~h as I say this is not altogether clear yet.

The success of the Water Reversion Act in the Supreme Court of Canada will also be an important factor in determining access to power for industrial development, both in Labrador and in the Province, and might take a higher priority in its use for industrial expansion than the Lower Churchill. MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER (Russell) the Opposition. MR. NEARY: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary, the hon. Leader of Mr.

Speaker, did I detect in the Premier's answer there that the development of Muskrat or the Lower Churchill, the cost has escalated to such a degree that it is not considered feasible to develop it even for industry in Labrador? Is that what the hon. gentleman indicated there in his answer? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: No, Mr. Speaker, I was not that categoric. I was comparing it to another development which is the existing development at the Upper Churchill, and the Lower Churchill power developed either at Muskrat Falls or 30Qn

June 18, 1982 Tape 1461 NM - 2 PREMIER PECKFORD: Gull Island would be a lot more expensive, and always has been a lot more expensive, than a corresponding amount of power from the Upper Churchill development, and given that we have a Water Reversion Act which has been ruled three to nothing as a valid piece of legislation by the highest court in Newfoundland, and given that the Supreme Court of Canada has now set a date for the hearing of the Water Reversion Act at the end of September of this year, it is quite likely that at the same time that the feasibility study on the aluminum smelter comes in, there will be an ajudication on the Water Reversion Act and we would therefore have at our disposal a numb .er of alternatives available to us for access to cheap power to make the aluminum smelter industry fly.

So all I am saying is that the Lower Churchill, either site, Muskrat Falls or Gull Island, in comparison with the Upper Churchill, is more ex?ensive, and much more expensive, and given that we have as a government gone ahead with special legislation as it relates to the Upper Churchill,and it has to this date been highly successful, that we would not want to cut off our nose in spite of our face, and given that timing 3 0 q .,

June 18,1982 Tape No. 1462 ah-1 PREMIER PECKFORD: on both initiatives are comi~g along almost simultaneously, one, the feasibility study on the aluminum smelter and, two, the Water Reversion Act in the Supreme Court of Canada, we are going to L2 very cautious as to how we access and what we access as the power source for the aluminum smelter. MR.TULK: Mr.Speaker. MR.SPEAKER (Russell): The hon. member for Fogo. MR.TULK: Mr.

Speaker, last week I asked the Minister of Forest Resources and Lands (Mr.Power) if he would reduce the stumpage on pulp wood in this Province and that increase was somewhere in the vicinity of 400 per cent. As I understand from the minister the last day he was in the House, last Friday, he had then to meet with the Minister of Finance (Dr.Collins) to see if indeed he would make that reduction. I would like to ask the Minister of Finance in view of the absence of the Minister of Forest Resources and Lands what action has been taken to alleviate that problem, if any? MR. SPEAKER: DR.COLLINS: The hon.

Minister of Finance. Mr. Speaker, I understand the Minister of Forests Resources and Lands has met with the people involved in this oroblem. The way I understand it is that there are two problem areas, the spruce bud damaged timber and the living , green leaves. Now I understand that the department is very anxious , of course, to make sure that there is maximum harvesting of the damaged timber, and that they have made some accomodation there of a ?hase-in nature to ensure that their programme of harvesting that damaged timber is not compromised in any way. 3[lq?

June 18 ,1982 Tape No . 1462 ah -2 DR .COLLINS : In regard to the living trees that are being harvested ,my understanding is that the stumpage change, the stumpage fee change is not qoing to impact on that particular aspect of things to any sig nificant degree . MR .TULK : MR .SPEAKER (RusseLl) : for Fogo . MR .TULK : Mr .Speaker . A supplementary .

The hon .member Mr .Speaker , are lile given to understand then that where we are cutting the spruce budworm infected timber, infested timber, that the stumpage rate will go back to its original rate and are we also given to understand that those people who cut for Abitibi -Price in Stephenville,for example, the local independent contractors who cut for Abiti bi -Pr ice in Stephenville will still pay the stumpage rate of eight or nine dollar~ whichever it was that was in the Budget, whichever aoplied? MR .SPEAKER : The hon . Minister of Finance . DR .COLLINS : Mr .

Speaker , I did not say that it would go back to the original . I said that there would be some phase-in mechanism for the damag ed tim ber , that the stumpage fee would be phased in , there would be a mechanism there . And I th ink that has been discussed by the minister of the department concerned . As far as the independent woodcutters ,it depends on what they cut . If they are by and large harvesting the damaged timber - and , of course , in harvesting damaged timber they do not ~) nl. v harvest in a block only damaged timber .

There is a certain amount of green timber harvested there also and there has to be that mix 3Q q -~

June 18, 1982 Tape 1463 PK - l DR. COLLINS: for utilization of material. It depends: If independant operators are harvesting by and large damaged timber that they will obviously get the benefit From this phase-in mechanism. MR. TULK: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Russell): A supplementary, the hon,.' member for Fogo. MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, this change involves a budgetary change,as the minister is well aware I asked him the question originally if it had been changed and he said he understands that there has been some discussion. Now let me ask him point-blank a·gain.

Has the rate of stumpage been changed? What are the new rates? What is the amount of increase? And is that change retroactive to April l, when the original change wassupposed to come in in the beginning? MR. NEARY: Hear, hear. A good question. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, I do not want to give the House any incorrect information,becausc this is a technical matter that had to be carried out between the minister and the industry concerned.

And it is not unusual when there is a budgetary change that those budgetary changes be brought in in a sensible manner, and that is what this government is doing. MR. ROBERTS: He sounds like the Allan MacEachen now, does he not? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. NEARY: Just like thcfederal Minister of Finance. DR.COLLINS: The Budget said there would be a change in the stumpage fee and that the stumpage fee would 3 0 9 if

June 18, 1982 Tape 1463 PK - 2 DR. COLLINS: end up as so and so. And there is a mechanism for bringing that policy change into effect and it will be carried out over a suitable period of time in the best interest of the industry concerned. As to when it will start . I am sure the minister will be able to give us the results of his dicussions with the industry when he is finished with his business outside of the House and reports to the House. But again I would reiterate that there will be a phase-in of the change in the stumpage fee in regard to the damaged timber. MR. TULK: Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER (Russell): member for Fogo. MR. TULK: A supplementary, Mr. A supplementary, the hon . Mr. Speaker, the minister is saying that there is a phase-in and he wants the Minister of Forest Resources and Lands (Mr. Power) to talk to the contractors himself, and that is perfectly acceptable. But the Minister of Forest Resources and Lands also held discussions with the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins).

Now in the interest of not forcing this issue and perhaps hurting some of the contractors in this Province, let me just ask the minister a very simple question, a very simple commitment~ When can we expect to hear from the government when this budgetary change will come about, a reversion back? When can we expect to hear? MR. NEARY: for all of them to go bankrupt? MR. TULK: Or are thev aoina to wait Will he now consider the other local contractors?

For example, on the Northern Peninsula I understand there is very little spruce budworm infested timber, yet that wood is going into the Stephenville mill, into Abitibi­ Price in Stephenville for newsprint. And I understand it is 3Qgr;

June 18 , 1982 Tape 1463 PK - 3 MR . TULK: going to drive the price of that wood up by approximately $10 per ton . Now \,tOuld the minister also consider with the Minister of Forest Reso urces and Lands (Mr . Power) whether indeed he should lowerstumpage fees not only on spruce budworm infested timber, but on the natural green timber as well? And when can we expect to knO\-' about this change , Mr . Speaker: ~tlL SPEAKER (RUSSELL) : The hon . ~1inister of Finance . 30~8

June 18, 1982 Tape No. 1464 MJ - 1 DR. J. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, that is the precise reason why I felt that we had to await the details of this whole thing from the minister concerned. Because,as the hon. member pointed out,there are a number of aspects to it and I have given the general approach that we discussed, the minister was then going back and discussing the details with the industry concerned and then he will annouce the precise results of those discussions. l-1R. B. TULI~: When? DR. COLLINS : And I have no doubt that he will do that on the first opportunity when he is available to report to the House.

MR. J. HODDER: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) The hon. the member for Port au Port. MR. HODDER: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Justice (Mr. G. Ottenheimer).

In view of the fact that, in increasing numbers, newspapers across the Province have been filled with legal advertisements concerning homes on public auction to satisfy mortgage or non-payment; and in view of the fact that there are 5,000 new morqaqes or 5,000 families in the Province who will renew their mortgage this year, and there are thousands of others from years before who will be renewing in the near future; and in view of the economic slump; I wonder if the minister is aware that most of those sales take place under

Chapter 3, of the Revised Statutes of Newfoundland,

Section 6, that says that., a nortgage ~ompany or bank has the right to take over a person'shome and sell if it they miss only one month's payment. And in view of the tight money situation that is forcing many banks and finance companies to call loans and mortgages in more quickly than in the past, does the minister intend to 38~7

June 18, 1982 Tape No. 1464 M,J - 2 MR. J. HODDER: amend the act to bring it in line with reality and with the other Canadian provinces? ;.m. S. NEARY: Hear, hear! Good question. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon. the Minister of Justice. MR. G. OTTENHEIMER: Mr. Speaker, it is my understandinq that foreclosure would seldom if ever occur with ~ one month arrears. There are usually a number of months, because it is not an option that anybody particularly wishes, so I would think the number of foreclosures with a one month arrears would eitner be inexistent or at least minimal.

What I think the hon. member is asking is whether we would consider an amendment to the legislation Ceratinly I would not want •vis:~ to say yes or no that we will amend it,but certainly we will consider it, yes. And I would not want to go any further than saying that right now. MR. HODDER: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER : A supplementary, the hon. the memb er for Port ~u Port . MR. HODDER : I unQerstand, Mr. Sryeaker, thatmortgagemoney is becoming very tiqht and that this

section of the act would give the companies the power to do that, and while it does not happen in a great deal of cases, the potential is there for it to happen and well as mortgage sales by public auction are up. I was just looking at the paper, last Saturday's edition of The Evening Telegram, ana i~ was full of homes on public sale. In The Western Star, and some of the weeklies you see the legal notices. But the act has anotner 3QgA

June 18, 1982 Tape No. 1465 so - 1 MR. HODDER: , what I would consider pretty frightening provision, in that under

Section 5 the public notice does not have to be given,so that anyone could have their home taken away from them behind their backsand sold to someone else at whatever price the mortgage holder sees fit. Would the minister have a look at that provision in the act as well? MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : MR. OTTENHEIMER: Yes, Sir. MR. HODDER: MR. SPEAKER: for Port au Port. MR. HODDER: The hon. Minister of Justice . Certainly, Mr. Speaker, we will. Supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Supplementary, the hon. member I have spoken to a number of members of the legal community and they assure me that this is a problem.

And I would ask the minister would he be ready to bring in other amendments that would force public notice before a mortgage sale in the ~-a~et_t _~ or in the newspapers? And would he take other suggestions,such as an extension of one month to three or four months and would he reduce the right of varying the sale that the act permits? Is the minister ready to make necessary changes in the act to protect Newfoundlanders and Labradorians from th e threat of losing their propert y? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Justice. MR. OTTENHEIMER: Mr.

Speaker, of course, there is nothing that could be done in our kind of society to eliminate the threat of people losing their property if they have mortgages to pay or payments to make. To the best of my knowledge, foreclosures after one month in default would be perhaps non-existent but - MR. ROBERTS: We are not talking about fore- closures, 'Gerry', it is the power of sale. MR. OTTENHEIMER : Power of sale, yes, as well. And also the 3ngq

June 18, 1982 Tape No. 1465 SD - 2 MR. OTTENHEIMER: hon. member mentioned sales without public advertisement. ~gain I would think that would be extremely rare but I think the point is that it can in fact legally happen. It can happen legally, the~e is not a legal obligation for the public advertisement. So we will certainly - AN hLU. MI:f.1BE'?.: MR. OTTENHEIMER: MR. ROBERTS: MR. SPEAKER (Russell): of Belle Isle. MR. ROBERTS: Look at it? - yes, Sir, look into that. Mr. Speaker. The hon. member for the Strait A further supplementary, Mr . Speaker, because I think it is a most important point.

And while we agree with the minister that there is no way this House should prevent people realizing upon their security, I think he agrees with us,from what he said, that it is proper and it is essential to make sure that the sales are done properly. Now I wonder if, among the suggestions he is considering, if he would consider a further one of introducing in effect a procedural code -it is with reference to

Section 5 o1- t~e Conveyancing Act under which the powers of sale are ~xercised - a procedural code which will require not only the public notice-which is not required now, as I understand it , although as the minister says most of my brethern at the bar do advertise publicly but they do not have to - but also require a sale 31nn

June 18, 1982 Tape 1466 NM - 1 MR. ROBERTS: bona fide to the highest, you know, the highest bidder for value? That is not re~uired now in the law of this Province today. And I think the minister may know of cases and his colleague, the minister of Energy, and the President of the Council (Mr. Marshall) may know of cases where sales have been made for less than bona fide, and of course they go back against the mortgagor under the personal covenant. So I wonder whether he would consider developing and then introducing a code to protect people whose homes are being taken.

And of course the reason for it, as my friend from Port au Port (Mr. Uodder) has said, is that in the past there have been relatively few of these sales, but now every week The Evening Telegram must have a dozen in every weekend of people whose homes are being taken from them and sold under powers of sale. And it is becoming a very real problem. It is one where the Province ought to move and we wonder whether the minister is prepared to consider it and then hopefully to introduce legislation. MR. SPEAKER (RUSSELL) : MR. OTTENEHIMER: The hon. Minister of Justice Yes, Mr.

Speaker, certainly the concern expressed by the hon. member for the Strait of Belle Isle (Mr. Roberts), and by the hon. member for Port au Port (Mr. Hodder) is I think a legitimate one and where ___ as these matters may not have the even potential seriousness - I use the word potential because I do not know how frequently these things happen - but the potential seriousness - MR. ROBERTS: used to be. MR.

OTTENHEIMER: Much more frequently than they - in a more stable economic climate, today with the economic climate as it is, and the difficulty people have in making payments, and high interest rates, certainly these potentialities are more serious. Certainly we 31 n ·j

June 18, 1982 Tape 1466 NM - 2 MR. OTTENHEIMER : will undertake to look into and make a study on the matter suggested , including a procedural code with respect to public notice and with re .spect to a requirement ~f sale to the highest bidder. MR . ROBERTS: l-1r . Speaker . MR . SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon . member for the Strait of Belle Isle . MR . ROBERTS : A £urther supplementary , because as we all agree it is important .

I wt"lnr,..,. iF the minister would also look into the type of legislation that I understand is in effect in Western Canada , where if a mortgagee seizes his property and sells it , that extinguishes his right to go aga~nst the mortgagor . In Newfoundland of cou rse, as many people have learned to their cost , when the property is seized and sold, if there is still a deficiency in the amount due , the debt due , then the former owner of the property, the mortgagor, is still at risk, is still liable to pay that debt . In Alb erta and Saskatchewan that is not s~ I understand . I do not know about BC .

The analogy in Newfoundland, I would suggest to the minister ,is in our conditional sales legislation where the security holder has a choice , he may either seize himself or he may sue . ue cannot do both . If he takes back the car and sells it, he does then forfeit his right 31n?

June 18, 1982 Tape No. 1467 RA - 1 MR. ROBERTS: to go against the former purch- aser of the car under personal convenant for the balance of the debt, and yet in real estate we still have this hangover from the old days. So I wonder if the minister would look at that as well. It is a major point, and not one of which he would want to commit himself here. But it is an important one where, you know, hundreds of Newfoundlanders are now being caught,

Whereas a few years ago I understand there were relatively few, now there are hundreds every year of people whose homes are being taken from them, and they are still at risk on these personal convenants. MR. SPEAKER(Russell): The hon. Minister of Justice. MR. OTTENHEIMER: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I think what probably should be done in this area would be a study of the legislation in at least Canadian juris-_ dictions, and not necessarily limit. it to Canada,but thev '''ntllil certainly be the most relevant.

And to look at these and related matters in legislation of other provinces and then to consider what changes are necessary in our own leqislation in view of that. MR. ROBERTS : Ours is badly o~t of date. MR. OTTENHEIMER: Yes. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Bellevue. HR. CALLAN: Mr. Speaker, I just wanted to ask the Premier if he is in a position to inform me or the House when he will be meeting with the Markland Hospital Improvement Committee? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: No, Mr. Speaker, I am not in the position at the present moment. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Bellevue. MR.

CALLAN: On a related matter, Mr. Speaker, 31 n 1

June 18, 1982 Tape No . 1467 RA - 2 :m. CALLAN: the Minister of Health (Mr. House) is not in his seat so perhaps I can ask the Premier . In connection with the Clarenville hospital , in the budget there is approximately $2 million ~!located for tho Clarenville hospital this year . Last year there was $600,000 allocated, only $240,000 of which was actually spent . Let me ask the Premier is the Clarenville hospital going to be built on the site that was cleared some five or s i x or seven years ago or will it be built a new site? MR . SPEAKER(Russell): The hon . the Premier . PREMIER PECKFORD: WeJ~ t here is a lot in the

preamble tn the hon .member's question . He tries to make a point before he asks a separate question . The point was that of money alloted last year in the budget 31 n ;,

June 18, 1982 Tape No. 1468 NM-1 PREMIER PECKFORD: for Clarenville, only a small amount of it was spent. I think that might not be as the hon. member tries to imply that it is, because there could be invoices outstanding for the planning work that would have to be paid. MR. ROBERTS: There should be no bills outstanding - PR~MIER PECKFORD: spent under that - MR. ROBERTS: Act. PREMIER PECKFORD : So I do not know just how much money was - according to the Financial Administration If the hon. member for the Strait of Belle Isle (Mr. Roberts) will be quiet while the member is trying to answer a question he - MR.

ROBERTS: PREMIER PECKFORD: If the member would answer accurately. It does not make any difference how I answer, it does not give the member for the Strait of Belle Isle the right to interrupt. MR. CALLAN: I think I struck a nerve. MR. SPEAKER (RUSSELL): Order, please! Order, please! PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, I am not going to get into a verbal gymnasticsbattle with the member for the Strait of Belle Isle when I am supposed to have the floor. MR. SPEAKER: Period has expired. MR. CALLAN: speech. Order, please! The time for Question Mr.

Speaker, I will go on with another PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES MR. SPEAKER: MR. NEARY: The hon. President of the Council . The hon. gentleman for the Strait of Belle Isle knows what he is talking about. PREMIER PECKFORD: He thinks he knows what he is talking about. That is the problem why he is still not the leader . MR. SPEAKER : Order, please! J 1 n s

June 18, 1982 Tape No. 1468 NM - 2 MR. ROBERTS: Do not interrupt the minister. He is trying to table a report. MR. SPEAKER {Russell) : Order, please! MR. ROBERTS: Have the Premier called to order. PREMIER PECKFORD: The member for the Strait of Belle Isle called me to order . MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, I table the Newfoundland and Labrado"r Petroleum drilling regulations 1982, which have been pre- pared and proclaimed under the Petroleum and Natural Gas Act and the Occupational Health and Safety Act of the Province. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.

MARSHALL: Here is the copy,and there are copies for hon. members as well. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Justice. MR. OTTENHEIMER: Mr. Speaker, I wish to table some subordinate legislation and these are the editions of the Newfoundland Gazette, published between November 20th., 1981 and June 16th., 1982. And I am sure they make very good reading on the long weekend. I especially tabled them today for that purpose. ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS FOR WHICH NOTICE HAS BEEN GIVEN: MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

PREMIER PECKFORD: I have answers to two questions asked by members of the Opposition on May th lOth., and May 19th. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Education. MS. VERGE: Mr. Speaker, I wish to table answers to two questions asked by the hon. member for Terra Nova {Mr. Lush) , questions 96 and 99. MR. ROBERTS: Well tabled. Well tabled. 31GR

June 18, 1982 Tape No. 1468 NM - 3 ORDERS OF THE DAY: MR. MARSHALL: Order 2, Committee of Supply . On motion that the House resolve itself into Committee of the ~fuolc on supply, Mr. Speaker left the Chair. ~ 1 0 7

June 18,1982 Tape No. 1469 ah-1 MR.CHAIRMAN (Aylward) : Order, please! Before we start this morning I wish to inform members that there are two hours and five minutes left in this part of our debate. The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR.NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I was hoping the Premier would remain in his seat because we have some hard questions to put to the hon. gentleman. We could not finish his departmental estimates during his absence.

We deliberately stalled the passing of his salary until he returned to the House in his seat so that we could ask him a few questions about some very important matters and some very important statements that he has been making lately. The first one I would like to deal with, Mr. Chairman- and I am sure the hon. qentlernan is listening to rne.At least I hope he is because we hope to get some answers from hirn .. Oris he running away because he cannot stand the heat, the pressure? Is he going to leave it to the hon. House Leader? >iR. ROBERTS: back now. MR.NEARY: him back into the House. MR.

TULK: MR.NEARY: Oh, you will see him corning I hope I will be able to drag He is gone to the auditorium. Or is he gone down to the auditorium now to give us a lecture before we adjourn for the Summer recess? School is out and I would think that the legislature will follow suit very shortly. Mr.Chairman, would the hon. the Premier tell the House whether he has his problems with the CBC television straightened out? Has he apologized to the CBC? Has he apologized for this childish display on the part of the Premier and has 310A

June 18,1982 Tape No . 1469 ah -2 MR.NEARY: he removed the restrictions, the ban that he has placed on interviews with the esc, namely that he will not do an interview with CBC television unless it is carried, the full version is carried and not edited? Now lvould the hon . gentleman , Nr .Chai rman , inform the House lvhether than ban has been lifted, whether the government now will stop attempting to monitor CBC televisio n news or CBC news, period , I guess? And will the hon . gentleman stop trying to manage the media in this Province .

Mr.Chairman, the Parliamentary Pre ss Gallery took a dra stic measure recently - it is unprecedented, I suppose , unprecedented in the hi st ory of this Province -when the Parliamentary Press Gallery Association had to run a public ad in a newspaper to try to get the Premier of thi s Province to come t·o his senses and to stop this foolish nonsense that he was getting on 1vith about trying to manage and monitor and control the statements made to one 310q

,J June 18 ', 1982 Tape No. 1470 PK-1 MR. NEARY: of the major medium of news in this Province. So we would like to find out if that has been straightened out, Mr. Chairman, or if any negotiations are going on between the Premier and the Press Gallery Association or the CBC to get this matter straightened out? That is one item we would like to get an answer to, Mr. Chairman. Now, Mr. Chairman, also yesterday before the House rose I was dealing with the matter of the Premier's pictures.

I was in the process of describing for hon. members, especially hon. members on the opposite side, that when they kiss the Premier's picture they are not kissing the original Premier. They are not kissing the Premier as he really is as a human being. Hon. members should realize that when they go into the Cabinet Room and bend over to kiss this picture lying on the cushion, when they throw themselves prostrate on the floor, Mr. Chairman, to kiss the hon. gentleman's picture, that they must bear in mind that Rostotski had some difficulty in getting the finished product. MR. CALLAN: Who? MR. NEARY: Rostotski.

He hap to touch it up considerably, Mr. Chairman, in order to make it look half decent. I understand because of the thinning of the hair on the front of the Premier's head that Rostotski had to use a brush to put some extra hair on the front of the head. I said that yesterday and I am going to say something new today. And then the bags had to be taken out from und~rneath the eyes. And then, Mr. Chairman, I am also told - or we were told - that they had to take a piece of white paper - MR. TULK: Toilet paper. MR.

NEARY: No, not toilet paper - and roll it up and shove it up the sleeves, because the Premier was wearing 311 n

June 18 , 1982 Tape No . 1470 PK -2 MR . NEARY : a short sleeve shirt, to make it look like he was wearin g a long sleeve shirt and what you can see actually is pape .r and not a shirt . MR . TOBIN : What is wrong with that? MR. NE ARY : No w, Mr. Chairman, that is all fine . We do not mind him making the Premi er as presentable as they can - MR . TULK : That is a difficult job . MR . NEARY : - which is a very difficult chore in itself . But what we want to know , Mr . Chairman , is 31 1 ·1

June 18, 1982 Tape No. 1471 SD-1 MR. NEARY: how much these photographs of the Premier that have been framed and hung in ministers' offices cost. We want an updating. We want to find out how much it is costing the people of this Province to have the Premier framed and hanged. Al~ HON. MEMBER: The one in the airport? MR. NEARY: Well the one out at the airport, I presume, that is rented space by Mr. Rostotski who wants to try to promote his business. We cannot argue about that one, Mr. Chairman, although we can argue about the fact that Mr.

Rostotski did not use very good discretion in hanging a picture of a politician in a federal airport. I guarantee you that is not very discreet, and the hon. gentleman is probably losing more business as a result of that than he is gaining. SOME HON. MEMBER: Oh, oh! MR. NEARY: It is very indiscreet, Mr. Chairman, that is a federal airport, a federal building, it is very indiscreet on the part of the photographer to use a picture of the Premier of this Province in that federal building. And I am surprised,Mr. Chairman - MR. TOBIN: there? MR.

NEARY: Why does he not put Trudeau's picture Well, that is right because Mr. Trudeau is more discreet. Mr. Chairman, I am surprised that the federal Department of Transport has not ordered that gentleman to remove that picture from the airport. It is alright for him to put weddjnq pictures there, and so forth and so on, of families and that sort of thing, but unless he is going to put up the picture of the Prime Minister of Canada, all the members of Parliament from Newfoundland, 311 ?

June 18, 1982 Tape No . 1471 so - 2 MR . NEARY: all the member of the House of Assembly then , Mr . Chairman , I would say it is very indiscreet on the part of that photographer to put that picture up at the airoort . But what we want to know is how much - MR . TOBIN : What is 1.,rrong 1.,ri th it? What is wron g wit ·· putting th at picture up? MR . NEARY : What is wrong with it up? It shou1d not be put up in a federal airport, playing politics with a federal building . lihy should a picture of 311 3

• June 18, 1982 Tape 1472 MJ - 1 MR. S. NEARY: the Premier be hanging over in the Aquarena? Why should it. MR. TOBIN: Why should not a picture be nc-.'lging there? MR: NEARY: Why should it be hanging in the government buildings of this Province? We are not in a South American banana republic. We found out what happened to Galtieri the other day, and the same thing will happen in this Province. A couple of weeks ago the President of Argentina was idolized, they were demonstrating in the streets. And what happened today? They flung him out, and the same thing will happen to the Premier of this Province.

The next thing it will be the uniform with a little medal on it, with'Hero', marked on the medal. That is what we will have next. A great big medal about that size with 'Hero' across it and his own uniform. I noticed, by the way, Mr. Chairman, I have not seen any bodyguards around lately. Have the bodyguards disappeared? Are they gone? I have not seen any bodyguards around the House now for a week or so. DR. COLLINS: He is using invisable men. MR. NEARY: They are invisible now, are they? Or are they just hiding somewhere so they cannot be seen?

But I have not seen any bodyguards around recently and I am wondering if they are still around or have they been ordered back on their regular duty? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. CHAIRMAN (Aylward) : Order, please! The hon. member's time has elapsed. MR. NEARY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Time flies. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. the President of the Council. Mr. Marshal]: Mr. Chairman, T h<JV<' just: a few words to say. 311 4

June 18, 1982 Tape No . 1472 MJ - 2 r-lR . 1'1. MARSHALL : The Opposition you know, they are supposed to be enquiring into the expenditures in the Executive Council,and I would just ask any reasonable person to tell us in what respect o~ respects the hon . member has made any remarks that are pertinent to the expenditure of money I mean the thinq he talks about is the Premier's picture,and the Premier 's picture is supposed to be on a Cabinet table on a cushion and ~hat have you, you know.

And, ~1r. rf)airman, the thing is it might have been in the hon . gentleman's time , he might have beer. used to that , Dut there was no cushion though , Mr . Chairman . SOME liON. MEMBERS : Hear, Hear! MR . MARSHALL : And that explains why the hon. gentleman is makir.g the remarks he is . He has got the brains knocked out of him 1 • • .;hatever he had . SOME RON. MEMBERS : Hear , hear ! MR . MARSHALL : He kept goi ng in there and banging his head en the table . So, Mr . Chairman, I mean that is as much sense as the hon . gentleman has made , really. />\R . SI/>1/>1S: \.oocl answer . MR .

MARSHALL: Out seriously, I mean we are into estimates here anc the hon . gentleman has not asked a single question relative to the expenditures . We are talking about expending , you kncH, $900 mi'llion here . \\!e have gone through, and as I say again, nine hours , ten hours, eleven hours of listening to the hon . gentleman getting on with his inane, stupid, idiotic observations about the, ~1 j;

June 18, 1982 Tape 1473 NM - 1 MR. MARSHALL: you know,the press gallery, he has beaten that to death, he has beaten the House to .death; he has beating everythino, he is beating us to death, really. But, ~1r. Chairman, look, just so it will be known, there are only two hours left in these deliberations, he has not asked a question on the Inter­ governmental Affairs Secretariat. The Opposition has not asked a question on the Cabinet Secretariat , it has not asked a question on Treasury Board, all very vital and important concerns to this Province.

Now the hon. gentleman there opposite talks about there would be a better investiqation into the estimates if they were brought into the House. And we certainly have not seen, by what the hon. gentleman has done under his leadership, that that would be so. As a matter of fact, we have seen all to the contrary. Imagine now how edifying it would be if we brought all of the estimates back in the House and had to listen to seventy-five hours of the hon. gentleman and his colleagues. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR.

MARSHALL: Now I mean that really and truly. !Jow compare that and I suggest that people should weigh what is being said and compare it to the information that has gotten out as a result of the Committees, where you have seven members committees, and questions are asked of ministers and information comes out as to the working of the deoartments, information' comes out as to the effective expenditure of money. So you know the proof is there. Those estimate committees are working. They are certainly working in a much more superior manner than here in the House.

And he has not even allowed his Finance critic to speak. I mean,the whips are really out there with him, even only with a half a lash, which is all he has, to wield over the people in the Opposition. He will not let the Finance critic speak. 311 R

June 18, 1982 Tape 1473 NM - 2 AN HO N. MEMBER : - half a lash . MR . ~1ARSHALL: No, he has got them under tow - SOME RON • MEMBERS : Rear, hear: MR . WALSH : -- ·--- ·-- In tow. MR . t1ARSFIALL : - Ln tow . And , Mr . Chairman, he talks about the Premier not being here . Now you know the Premier has a lot of business to transact for the Province, and the Premier is always here in the House . Of the three Premiers that we have had experience with in the Hous~ I am sure there is no premier that has been here for ordinary routine of business moreso than the pres ent Premier of this Province . 311 7

"- June 18, 1982 Tape No. 1474 RA - 1 MR. MARSHALL : Can anyone really say in this House and in this Committee that his time would be better spent here than in the Estimate Committees? If Lhat were so they would be doing it. I have been here, sitting down here waiting to answer questions with respect to the Estimates, the individual expenditures in the Estimates, and there really has not been anything to answer, there has been nothinq to answer, completely and absolutely nothin~. MR. TULK: Well said. Your are perfect, yes. MR.

MARSHALL: If the hon. gentleman wants to comment on it, I have a press briefing in a little while on the drilling regulations, so I will be out then, but I know my colleagues will be able to respond and I do not even have to give any of my colleagues any notes on it. Because there are no questions, I repeat again, just silly things with respect to pictures and the press gall­ ery and bodyguards, I suppose the question of the body­ guards is half legitimate but I am not going to respond to that.

I mean, the matter is security of the Premier, or any elected official, and I do not think it serves the public interest at all to give out a lot of informat­ ion with respect to that. I mean, the hon. gentlemen can see by looking around them at the present time, when the Premier is around of what has happened with respect to the bodyguards and what have you. MR. NEARY: Are they gone? MR. MARSHALL : But they are not presently there, but that is not to say that there are not necessary secur­ ity arrangements that unfortunately have to be attended to on the situation.

But I am not going to give it to the hon. gentleman because the hon. gentleman just makes sport of it. And not only 311 A

June 18, 1982 Tape No . 1474 RA - 2 MR. MARSHALL : that,I do not ~ind him making sport of it, If the hon . gentleman wishes to make a fool of himself he can be our guest every day of the week, I mean I do not mind that . But I am not goi ng to give out in formation that could have unfortunate reprecussions in respect to it . Honestly thouqh , Mr .

Chairman , I say it again , you know, it is quite ob­ vious: Tmagine getting up on, · you know, the business of the pictures , ~nd as I say , he speaks from experience , He has obviously had whatever the good Lord gave h i~ reemed out of him or knocked out of him by. beatin g his head against the Cabinet table when the former Premier was here,because he knows the procedure . That is the procedure that they all did . Imagine every morning going in , a picture of • 311 q

June 18, 1982 Tape No. 1475 AH-1 MR. MARSHALL: Premier Smallwood on the desk and they beating not their breasts, but beating their heads on the table. SOME HON. MEMBERS: ;~R. MARSHALL: Hear, hear! No wonder there was a one-man government, Mr. Chairman, make no wonder there was a one-man government over there. Make no wonder the han. gentleman there opposite cannot contribute to the debate or contribute anything to the debate. So what I suggest he do, if he would allow some of his colleagues to get up perhaps we might hear something of some sense. MR. SIMMS: He is sensible. MR.

MARSHALL: 'I'he member for !3e ll cvue asks qood questions. The member for Bellevue (Mr. Callan) he asks good questions. He asked a good question yesterday in the Late Show and he asked a good question of the Minister of Social Services (Mr. Hickey). The member for Fogo (Mr. Tulk) has gotten up and asked legitimate questions with respect to the forestry and agriculture and the stumpage thing and they were very constructive. So, you know - MR. SIMMS: Hear, hear! MR. MARSHALL: - to hear the han.

Leader of the Opposition speak, you would almost be prepared to chant you know, 'Bring Don home for good, or it is time for Len Stirling again'. Anything is better than the han. gentleman there opposite and his inanities,because there is nothing, and I repeat again, there is nothing that the hon. gentleman has said that warrants a reply, and he is not getting one except what we have already said. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. CHAIRMAN (AYLWARD): Before I recognize the next speaker I would like to rule on a point of order that 31?n

June 18,1982 Tape No. 1475 ah-2 MR.CHAIRMAN (Aylward): I reserved ruling on yesterday, a point of order raised by the President of the Council which had to do with a statement by the Leader of the Opposition. The statement was,"What else would you expect from a parrot, Mr. Chairman?" The hon. Leader of the Opposition did not actually call anyone a parrot so there is no point of order. MR. NEARY: The hon. Leader of the Goposition. Mr.

Chairman, if the Premier is not going to sit in this House to pilot his own estimates through the House then the least they could do is to put one of these expensive coloured pictures over there on his desk, stand it on his desk so we would not be talking to a vacant seat. At least we would have one of these expensive coloured pictures paid for by the AN HON.MEMBER: MR.NEARY: taxpayers of this Province - Are they listening? They are listening do not worry - to talk to. Mr.Chairman, we are told that some of these pictures, to have them done, cost in the vicinity of $1500.

Rostotski is an expensive photographer and he believes in perfection .. To have the Premier of this Province pose and have his picture taken and touched up, some extra hair put on his head and other things done with the photograph it is a pretty expensive undertaking and we would like to know how much these pictures are costing. How much it is costing to have conv ~rints made1 MR. YOUNG: MR.NEARY: That is not in this year's estimates . It is not in this year's estimate sl Well what year's estimates is it in? MR. YOUNG: I do not know. J 1 I. •j

June 18,1982 Tape No. 1475 ah-3 MR.NEARY: Oh, the hon. gentleman does not know. MR. SIMMS: It was years ago, you should have asked that question two years ago. :11 ? ?

June 18, 1982 Tape No. 1476 SD - 1 MR. NEARY: Yes. We are going to continue to ask the question because prints of the pictures are continously be made and framed and hung in public buildings. MR· SIMMS: When are you going to start a new line of questioning. And forget all that old stuff? Remember your speech on opening day? It was an excellent speech. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, so there is a very legitimate question. We want to know how much these pictures are costing. And we want to know also - if we could only get the Premier back in his seat. Obviously, Mr.

Chairman, he is in a manic depressive state and they will not allow him to come into the House because he goes berserk while we are doing his estimates, while we are asking him about these matters. We would like to know how many hours a week are set aside, how many hours a week the Premier sets aside to have his picture taken, and how many hours a week he actually devotes to his job? And while we are doing his salary we would like to know that. But most important of all, Mr. Chairman, is his attitude towards Canada.

We believe the Premier should be in his seat this morning to answer criticism levelled at the hon. gentleman. MR. YOUNG: By Whom? MR. NEARY: By the Opposition, by the newspapers and writers, editorial writers across Canada, about his anti­ Canadian stance. AN HON. MEMBER : Hear, hear! MR. NEARY: And, Mr. Chairman, if the hon. gentleman is listening to me - if the hon. gentleman was in his seat I would like for all hon. gentlemen on the other side, by the way, led by the Premier and the House Leader (Mr. Marshall), to stand up in their places in this House one after the other and repeat after me. SOME HON.

MEMBERS: Oh, oh! 31/.i

June 18, 1982 Tape No. 1476 SD - 2 MR. NEARY: I would like for the Premier of this Province,and especially the President of the Council, the Government House Leader (Mr. Marshall), to go on record by saying the following: I am a proud Canadian. My cou~try is Canada. It is the country of my children and I am proud of that. Now, Mr. Chairman, I dare the hon. the Premier 31?.4

June 18 , 1982 Tape NO . 1477 PK -1 MR.NEARY: and the Minister of Energy ( Mr . Marshall ) ,the Preside nt of the Council, and member for St . John 's East ~h e House Leader to stand in their places in this House and repeat that sentence . MR . BAIRD : I did yesterday . MR . NEARY : The hon . gentleman did no such thing yesterday . MR . !lAIRD : Pretend I did . MR. NEARY : Yes, r-1r . Chairman , the hon . gentleman has to tmo~ the party li ne. 1\nd the party line at the moment is seperate from Canada . SOME liON . MEMBERS : No, no . MR . NEARY : And I, ltr . Chairman- MR.

BAIRD : But 1-1e do have a party line, which is more than I can say for the ot her side . MR. NEARY : Mr . Chairm an, I now challenge th e Premier , the President of the Cou ncil, every member of the Cabi net and every backbencher on the government side of the House to stand and repeat what I just said . MR. DOYLE : Sing O'Canada . DR . COLLINS : Do you 1o~ant the hon . Premier 's picture? MR. REID : Do you have any idea what this is costing the taxpayers? MR . NEARY: Yes , r realize how much it is costing .

But how much it is costing the taxpayers to pay for these trips , where the anti -Canadian statements are made? The hon . gentleman qot a lot of room to talk . Now what 1.;as that they accused him of being? Being a puppet . The hon . gentleman they said is a puppet for the Premier. A puppet . 31?.S

June 18 , 1982 Tape No. 14 77 PK -2 MR . NEARY : The hon . gentleman goes into a public meeting and he is scared of his constitutions, he backs '' >~ay from them . He says I am going to fight for you . I am going to keep your hospital . And then he goes out and when he is interviewed by the press he does a complete flip flop , he says, ' No, that is not 1"hat I meant at all .' The hon . gentleman has done that on two occasions now , Mr . Chairman . ts it any wonder they accused the hon. gentlema n of bcinq a puppet, a puppet of the Premier . Mr . Chairman, this is a very serious matter . MR .

DINN : It is not . ----iMR . NEARY : It is a very serious - why dees not the hon . gentleman get up and repeat what I just said? HR . DINN : \~ho ,,ould want to repeat after you? tom . NEARY : Oh , I see , t>1r . Chairma n. The trouble is that they are too ashamed , they are too ashamed Mr . Chairman, they arc ashamed of the Premier 's statem ents . They hang their heads every time they hear these separatist statements made by the hon . gentlema n.

They hang their heads in shame, like co1vards, every time they hear the Premier talk about leading Newfoundland out of Confederation , and making anti -Confederate statements and anti- Canadian statements . ?>1R . DOYLE : That is not relevant . ------HR . NEARY : It certai nly is relevant because we are :11?fi

June 18, 1982 Tape 1478 NM - 1 MR. NEARY: talking about the Premier's salary. And Mr. Chairman, I do not know if I can amend his salary or not.to have him stand in this House- I think one of the things that the Premier should do before we pass his salary is stnnd in this House and repeat what I just said. I am a proud Canadian. My Country is Canada. It is the Country of my children and I am proud of it. Do you think, Mr. Chairman, we will ever see the day when the Minister of Energy (Mr.

Marshall) or the Premier of this Province will be able to stand, hold theirheads high with theirchests out, and say that they are proud Canadians? Will we ever see that day, Mr. Chairman ? Or will they continue the course they are on now and lead Newfoundland out of Confederation? MR. DINN: MR. NEARY: You are trying to bethe next Leader. No, I certainly am not. But I think it is time now, Mr. Chairman, it is time for members on the other side to stand up and be counted. MR. BAIRD: vote. We do that every time we have a MR. NEARY: Oh they do , eh? They do it every time they have a vote. Stand up.

Stand up for Canada. The Liberal Party stands for Canada We are for Canada. we are for Confederation. we are for Newfoundland. The hon. red roaring Tory, let him get up and say, "I am a proun <:anadian." DR. COLLINS: I just sang Oh Canada, for gosh sakes. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, the hon. gentleman now can skirt the issue all he wants. Well,let us put it to the test today. Let us find out how many true Newfoundlanders and true Canadians are in this House. Let the minister who just walked into the House, the Minister of Energy (Mr. Marshall), I challenge him now, Mr.

Chairman, and I will take my seat and I will listen to hear what the hon. gentleman says, let him stand 31 2 7

June 18, 1982 Tape 1478 NM- 2 MR . NEARY : up and repeat after me, I am a proud Canadian. My Country is Canada . It is the Country ot my children and I am proud of it . MR . CHAI~~ (Aylward) : The hon . member for St . John 's North . MR . CARTER : l-lr. Chai:onan, ·the last speech has V'io1ated all of the acceptable tenets of qood taste that we have come to look upon as acceptable in this House of Assembly . The only thing I can say in his favour is that he t"as approved of very highly by the space visitors here yesterday . I noticed them looking over in that direction .

And they did feel right at home because there is lots of space over there . SOME H ON • 1\ffi.MBERS : lie ar, hear! MR . CARTER : In fact they were looking · at the hon . gentlemen as if they were from another \~arid , which of course they are ,the underworld. SOME HON. MEM13ERS~ MR . CARTER : Hear, hear! Any1~ay, with those fe~o1 remarks I would like to get into something serious . The Premier's salary,of course .gives us the excuse, or at least everyone else has taken it as an excuse 1 to make a 1>1ide-ranqing debate and so I am going to take the same privilege unless I am stopped . And by lookinq at 31?Fl

June 18, 1982 Tape No. 1479 MJ - 1 MR. J. CARTER: Page 11 in the General Budget Book-that is the one with the lighthouse on it, the one that looks like the telephone directory, except it does not 11ave as much information in it. On page 11 we note that the revenue from SSA is going to be $286 million this year, This is estimated, of course. Now there is also a federal sales tax on most articles, in fact there is a federal sales tax of 9 per cent on more articles than there is a provincial sales tax of 11 per cent on articles.

Therefore, I think you can safely say that the amount of money that is paid directly to the federal government by any purchaser in Newfoundland is of the order of $300 million. This is an approximate figure, but T think it is a figure we can safely write down and accept as genuine. The amount of income tax that we pay is estimated at $241 million,and since the provincial income tax is 59 per cent of the federal tax, it is a safe assumption to say that the amount of federal tax -this is dollars that we pay out of our pockets, directly to Ottawa -will be, this year, about $400 million.

The gasoline tax is estimated to be $61 million. There is also a federal tax on gasoline, I am not sure of the exact rate~ I understand that it is more than the provincial rate and also it is more widely set, therefore, I think I can safely say that the amount of money paid to the federal government on behalf of gasoline and oil is $100 million. Corporation Tax is $53 million, estimated. The federal Corporation Tax is almost 50 per cent, much higher, therefore, we can safely say that the amount of federal tax paid by corporations to Canada, to Ottawa directly, is of the order of $200 million. 312CJ

June 18, 1982 Tape No . 1479 ~IJ - 2 MR . J. CARTER : The Provincial Tobacco Tax is estimated at $35 million . There is also a federal to bacco ~3X 1 rather more than the provincialtObaCCO tax and therefOre , I think we can say that the federal government will be receiving $50 million from Newfoundlanders who smoke . Similarly with the Liquor Tax, and there I have taken a figure out of the air sayinq the federal government, at least, makes as much on liquor as we do, and we are estimating $60 million.

Therefore , the federal government will be taking in about $60 million from all Newfoundlanders who consume ~lcohol . That, Mr. Chairman , is a qrand total of $1,110,000 ,000 cash, negotiable liquid assets .that is paid out of Newfoundlanders· pockets this year into the federal government . Now , that is hardly an estimate, it is a very close,accurate figure . No1v , then using the same page, lvhat do 1ve get from the federal government? 311n ,. ~

June 18, 1982 Tape No. 1480 so - 1 MR. CARTER: Taxequalization of $550 million, and established programme financing - $155 million, other - $22 million, for a total of $727 million. So we pay out of our ?Ockets $1,110 million to Ottawa, we receive in the same sort of specie $727 million. Now I have omitted customs duties, I do not know, I have no way of estimating how much customs duties Newfoundlanders pay to Ottawa, but it must be considerable.

It is not just a paltry sum, because a lot of stuff is imported from the United States and, of course, everything that is imported from the United States has a customs tax to be paid on it and sometimes quite a high tax, it can be as high as 50 per cent. Now I realize that we also receive from Ottawa such things as old age pensions and baby bonuses, but I deliberately left out unemployment insurance ,because although it is not a self-sustaining fund it is supposed to be, it is supposed to be a fund that looks after itself.

And there are certain federal pensions and a few odds and ends but I do not think there is any need for us to grovel _ or to hang our heads in shame, we are paying our fair share of the cost of Confederation the same as any other Province. SOME RON . MEMBERS : Hear, hear. MR. CARTER: And it does not take much ability at arithmetic to be able to establish that. And for the han. member to suggest that we are anything but, you know, reasonable Canadians who are paying our fair share, I think is a disgusting __ MR. DA~E:_: What about our fish, '.::'"ohn', what aoout the fish they are giving away? MR.

CARTER: r re~lly wonder if the han. gentleman was born at all or if he just accumulated, I really do. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! 311 ·1

June 19, 1992 Tape No . 1480 so - 2 HR. CARTER: So I think it is a disgrace. MR . DAWE : Look at our fish that they are giving away . MR . CARTER: Well , I mean , when you con sider the amount of our goods and services or our resources that are ueing carted a\vay , when you consider the lies that Pinnochio La l onde - the character of Pinnochio, when he was first made by the puppeteer, whenever he told a l i e his nose got a little bit longer . No\.,r I am not going to suggest that Mr . Lalonde is a liar but I do suggest that his nose is considerably longer in the last fe\.,r months SOME HON .

MEMBERS: Hear, hear ! NR. CARTER: - and getting longer and longer . And, you know, while I continue on this theme, although it is a lit tle far removed from the Premier ' s salary , s t i ll the remark that was made by Trudeau just a fe'\v days ago i n Yugoslavia , when he sort of made an announ ·cement to coincide with the new leader of Yygoslavia, t hat I srael should get out of Beirut, 313i

June 18, 1982 Tape No. 1481 RA - 1 MR. J. CARTER: when Israel is just trying to defend itself from the PLO,and for our Prime Minister to make what I consider to be a commun- ist staternent,that says enough, the fellow is just a fellow traveller of third world Marxists he is a disgrace and should be removed. Meanwhile,the Canadian dollar,of course, is plummeting and MacEachen says there is nothing he can do about it~ I would say if he went out and hanged himself tomorrow morning the Canadian dollar would surge ahead, That is the least he could do. But anyway, Mr.

Chairman, I did want to make these few serious points and any hon. gentleman can go through the same exercise,the figures are there. I accept the figures that the provincial government gave us. The federal govern­ ment figures obviously have to be estimated or guest­ irnated,but I think it is a reasonably fair and close estimate and it is a very revealing one. So with those few remarks I will sit down. -SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. CHAIRMAN(Aylward): The han. Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Chairman, after listening to the hon. gentleman who just took his seat, I am beginning to wonder what he does with the savory up there at Mount Scio place. I do not know if you ca ;1 get high on savory or not,but the han. gentleman cer­ tainly sounds like he is freaked out this morning, that he has had a toke before he carne into the House. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, the savory is having an unsavory affect on the hon. gentleman. 3113

June 18, 1982 Tape No. 1481 RA - 2 MR. NEARY: I do not know if you can sniff savory or not, Mr. Chairman, but certainly there is something wrong with the hon. gentleman to make him beside himself. He is very much beside himself this morning. The hon. gentleman, I did not hear him repeat what I asked hon. members to say, that I am a proud Canadian, I did not hear the hon. gentleman repeat that. The hon. gentleman is one of the red roaring Tories in this House who would not have the courage to get up and admit that he is a Canadian.

What does the hon. gentleman do when he goes abroad, when he goes to England and Europe and these places? Does he admit that he is a Canadian? MR. CARTER: I woulj not admit that I was a neighbour of yours. MR. NEARY: I seer You would not,eh? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, I would like to hear all hon. gentlemen get up and speak on this subject we are on. w~ are talkinq about - MR. NEARY: W~ are talking about who stands for Canada and who is against Canada. Tories in tPis Province are against Canada,the Liberals are for Canada and for Confederation. MR. BAIRD: MR.

NEARY: That is your idea, it is not mine. It is not my idea it is the Premier who has drawn - the Premier has drawn the battle lines. The Premier has drawn the dividing line. MR. NEARY: The Premier has made the distinction between Liberals and Tories in tlllsProvince. The Liberals stand up for Confederation and Canada, and the Premier of this Province and his colleagues are trying to fract- ure it and smash Canada and smash Confederation. 3134

June 18, 1982 Tape No. 1481 RA - 3 MR.NEARY; Mr. Chairman, let us hear the hon. gentleman get up and say he is a proud Canadian. MR. WALSH: Who walked out of the House last Friday? MR. NEARY: Yes, and for very good reasons. 311 s

June 18, 1982 Tape No. 1482 PK - l MR. NEARY: And when we did walk out - the hon. gentleman, by the way, who has not the courage to speak while we are in the House, spoke while we were out, the first time, I think, he has spoken since he was elected to the House - the ~',st time the hon. gentleman has spoken, my advice to the hon. gentleman is go and learn the rules of the House before he speaks again. DR. COLLINS: You did not hear it the other day, you missed a marvellous speech. MR. NEARY: Yes, we certainly did. Mr. Chairman, to put it mildly, it was uncouth. MR.

WALSH: I would have to go along way to catch up to you. MR. NEARY: Uncouth. MR. TOBIN: You would give away Newfoundland. You gave it away. Not give it away, you gave it away. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, let hon. members stop their gutter sniping over there, stop behaving like the Muppet Show and get up and make a speech for Canada, not agRinst Canada. MR. STAGG: you one. MR. NEARY: !low about sittin~J down ctn<.l I will give Will the hon. gentleman get up and say - will the hon. gentleman repeat this - write it down. Write it down - I am a proud Canadian. MR. STAGG: MR. NEARY: MR.

STAGG: I am a proud Canadian, no problem. My country is Canada. My country is Canada. Can I be forgiven? MR. NEARY: It is the country of my children and I am proud of it. MR. STAGG: It is the country of my children and I am proud of it. Now, will you sit down? MR. NEARY: Maybe, Mr. Chairman, after I take my seat the hon. gentleman will get up and repeat what I just said, and maybe 313R

June 18, 1982 Tape No. 1482 PK - 2 MR. NEARY: he will be able to persuade the Premier to do it. I am more interested in getting the Premier and the Minister of Energy (Mr. Marshall) to make that statement. MR. STAGG: You are a typical Liberal, you promise something and then renege. MR. NEARY: I would like to hear the hon. gentleman say it. It would warm the cockles of our hearts - MR. STAGG: MR. NEARY: MR. STAGG: and run you out. MR. NEARY: DR. COLLINS: MR. TOBIN: DR. COLLINS: 'Steve'. MR.

NEARY: Warm the cockles of your heart? - to hear the hon. gentleman say it, but - I should have brought that down to LaPoile But we want the Premier to get up and say it. ~ubbish! That is right you should have ran in LaPoile. Mr. Ottawa is looking down his nose at you Mr. Chairman, we would like to get the front row over here. I think the Minister of Justice (Mr. Ottenheimer) would say it, but I do not think the hon. Premier, the Minister of Energy (Mr. Marshall) or the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) would say it. I do not think they would have the courage.

I do not think they are prepared to admit that they are good Canadians because they are not. According to the statements that they have been making they are not good Canadians. Mr. Chairman, they can prove me wrong. The hon. Premier can prove to the whole world that he is a good Canadian by coming into this House, and he is listening to me down on the loudspeaker, down on the Eighth Floor, - and stand up and say I am a proud Canadian and then go across Canada and say the same thing, and travel throughout the world and say I am proud to live in Canada, it is the best country in the world to live in.

I would like to see the Minister of Energy (Mr, Marshall) stand in this House and say that. 3137

June 18, 1982 MR. TOBIN: (inaudible). MR. NEARY: Tape No. 1482 PK - 3 Are you proud to be where you are? Mr. Chairman, they are so full of anti- Canadian slogans, they are so anti-Confederate, and anti - C-~~dian 31~A

June 18,182 Tape No. 1483 ah-1 MR.NEARY: that they are ashamed, they are ashamed to stand in this House and bare their souls and admit they were wrong, that they are living in the finest country in the world,and that they should be proud to be Canadians. And every time they hear the Minister of Finance (Dr.Collins) bring down his Budget and the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) announces to the whole world that 55 per cent of the revenue of this Province comes from Ottawa,all hon. gentlemen should say, Amen, I am a proud Canadian.

When the Minister of Finance (Dr.Collins) tells the House that $600 million is corning from Ottawa this year in equalization grants, the hon. gentlemen should say,Arnen, Amen, Alleluia, thank God we are proud Canadians.

Every time they sign a DREE agreement , every time they sign a housing agreement, every time they sign a transportation agreement, every time a loan goes out from the Newfoundland Development Loan Corporation to a fish plant, and e""'""" time social assistance recipients get their cheques1 50 per cent paid for by the Government of Canada, every time you present your MCP card, every time they collect unemployment insurance, every time veterans and old age pensioners get their allowances,the Premier and members of the administration should say, Alleluia, Amen, thank God we are proud Canadians. MR.

TOBIN: Just imagine how much would have been eliminated if you had not given away the Churchill Falls. It would be some turn around then. MR.NEARY: Well, Mr.Chairrnan, it is a good thing that something was developed to give them something to criticize and talk about. At least we have given them a foundation to build on. 313q

June 18,1982 Tape No. 1483 ah-2 MR.NEARY: Mr. Chairman, I do not know if that hon. gentleman down there who should be seen and not heard for the first year in this House is aware of it or not,but the government that he is supporting spent $300 million to set off two explosions on either side of the Strait of Belle Isle to start the lower Churchill Falls development. What does the hon. gentleman have to say about that? - $300 million of taxpayer's money.

The holes are in the ground to prove it, a hole on the Labrador side and a hole on this side and maybe they should shove, maybe they should stuff the hon. gentleman down in one of these holes. AN HON.MEMBER: (Inaudible) MR.NEARY: And the hon. gentleman should also learn, Mr. Chairman, that in order to speak in this House the rules say you have to be in your own seat. AN HON. MEMBER: That is right,and you have to stand up to be recognized. MR.NEARY: Mr. Chairman, I would suggest to the hon. gentleman that he go and check the record of the development of the Lower Churchill.

According to the public record,the Lower Churchill development started prior to the election in 1975. MR. TOBIN: What about the Upper Churchill? MR. NEARY: What about it? At least it is built, it is constructed, it is there, you can see it. What about the $300 million? MR. TOBIN: And you gave it away to Quebec. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, I understand you are supposed to be in your seat in this House. Another little gem, by the way, 314n

June 18, 1982 Tape 1484 NM - 1 MR. NEARY: another little gem for these new members to remember is this, that the present Minister of Justice (Mr. Ottenheimer), the present Minister of Social Services (Mr. Hickey), sat in this House when the BRINCO agreement was approved for the development of the Upper Churchill and they never raised a finger or a voice in ?retest of it. They were in the Opposition at that time and they voted in favour of that bill. MR. TOBIN: What did you say against it? MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, they voted in favour of that bill. And hindsight, you know, hindsight is a wonderful thing.

At that time oil was $1.65 a barrel and not even the Rothschilds, the Rothschilds who were the ones who negotiated the agreement, not even they knew that oil was going to go to $34 a barrel, or $40 a barrel, whatever it is. Not even they knew that, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN (Dr. McNicholas): Order, please: MR. NEARY: I will come back at this shortly then. MR. STAGG: Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The han. member for Stephenville. MR. STAGG: Mr. Chairman, for the first time I have managed to get the floor when the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) wanted to get it as well.

Although I would yield to the Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: hear your speech. MR. STAGG: No, I am just turning around to I see. Well, Mr. Chairman, what we have heard here this morning from the present Leader of the Opposition is another Stirling speech. It is a Stirling speech of the kind that was uttered on many occasions by his predecessor in the chair, the now ex-member for Bonavista North, the former Leader of the Opposition. 3141

June 18, 1982 Tape No . 14 84 NM-2 MR . STAGG : ~tr . Chairman , ! suggest that speeches of that type are going to result in the same kind of result for '".he member for LaPoile ( Mr . Neary ) as they did for the member for Bonavista North. As you probably recall, the member for LaPoile is only t1venty votes shy of being in the same position as the member for Bonavista North. He won the election by thirty ­ nine votes and I would suggest, Mr . Chairman that - MR. NEARY : A point of order, ~1r . Chairman . MR . CHAIRNAN( Dr . McNicholas) :Orde r,please ! A point of Order -.

The hon . the Leader of the Opposition . ~1R. NEARY : Could 1-1e hav~ ,, quorum call , there is no quorum in the House . MR. STAGG : t-lR. Bl\I RD: note . No a half Liberal . Nonsense , Mr . Chairman. And the only one Liberal , please QOORUM _CALL : 31 4?

June 18, 1982 Tape No. 1485 ~1J - 1 MR. CHAIRMAN (McNicholas) : Order, please! I would ask the Clerk to count the numbers. There is a quorum present. MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. the member for Stephenville. SO.ME HON . MEMSERS : dear, hear! MR. STAGG: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Now, Mr. Chairman, I have recited the little poem, the little bit of verse that the member for Lapoile (Mr. S.

Neary), the present in-House Leader of the Opposition comprised, because he thinks it is going to be something that we on this side of the House are afraid to say, that we are afraid to say that we are proud Canadians and we are proud that our children are Canadians and this sort of thing. Well, whatever needs to be said, consider it said, ditto to everything that the hon. the Leader of the Opposition said and I will put it there is spades, capital letters or whatever, I am proud to be a Canadian.

But, Mr Chairman, one of the problems that the Leader of the Opposition has is that he aquates being Canadian with being Liberal. You see, he is under the impression that in order to be a proud Canadian one must support the devisive stands taken by the federal/Liberal party which have,in fact. driven wedges between portions of Canada 1 and they hope by doing so,that they can divide an0 conquer and keep you off base and hopefully the people will turn against you because of the economic problems that will be encountered. That is the plan. It is a sinister nlan. It is the same kind of plan that Mr.

Kirby, the man who is now supposedly investigating our fishery, it is the same kind of plan he put forward to the Prime Minister in 3141

June 18, 1982 Tape No . 14 85 MJ - 2 MR . F . STAGG: September of 1981 - '80 or '81 I am nc:>t sure which it l'las now - when he devised a plan , how ::'> divide and conquer the provinces at the Constitutional Conference . This is how you do it . You play this one up, you play this one against that one and hopefully they will all end up at one anothers throats and we will come out of it okay . This is Mr. Kirby, the man who is no•:! investigating t;le Ne,.,foundland fishery . Well , I certainly hope that l'u-. Kirby dn'C'i a bet·ter job in bringing about ::J 1 4 l,

June 18, 1982 Tape 1486 PK - 1 MR. STAGG: some reason and rationale to the federal position in the Newfoundland fishery tha·n he did in that particular episode. Becausefortunately some proud Canadian in the Prime Minister's office released that document, that nefarious document that Mr. Kirby had composed, released it to the press, and it became very much a source of embarrassment to to the Federal Liberal Party. That is the type of proud Canadians that are in the Liberal Party.

Now the real proud Canadians, the people who really want to be part of this country and the people who are striving to give to Canada and to give to Newfoundlanders their just desserts within Canada are the party led by the Premier. Now the most recent problems that we have had with the Federal Liberals- not with Canada, Mr. Chairman, we have no problems with Canada, but we do have a problem with Prime Minister Trudeau, Mr. Lalonde, Mr. Chretien and Mr. Ouelette, Mr.

Ouelette who,by the way, when John Crosbie was up making his speech concerning Newfoundland's offshore, and I have it here somewhere­ anyway he was interrupting Mr. Crosbie when he was making one of the greatest speeches in support of Newfoundland ever. I have it here,it is on page 18283 of the House of Commons debates. When Mr. Crosbie was speaking 1 he was defending Newfoundland's position as eloquently as he can , and we all know that he does it very eloquently, Mr. Ouelette was interrupting him. And what did Mr. Ouelette say when Mr. Crosbie asked for the floor? Mr.

Ouelette said, ''Why do you not go to hell". MR. TOBIN: Huh! Right there and then. Shame! 3145

June 18, 1982 Tape 1486 PK - 2 MR. STAGG: That is what it says there in Hansard, "Why do you not go to hell". That is what Mr. Ouelette said. And Mr, Ouelette is also the man who some time ago said that Mr. Crosbie was the ,,ltimate Newfie joke. It illas Lalonde who said that. MR. STAGG: -- --- -- Now that is the type of contempt that we in Newfoundland are being faced with time and time again when we are trying to achieve our just place in this Canada. MR. STAGG: Now , Mr.

Chairman, what I would like for the Opposition to do, I would like for them to deal with these two~proposals; the proposal made by Newfoundland to the federal government on November 12, 198l,as a framework for agreement concerning the offshore, and the proposal for a settlement of Janurary 25, l982,thehighlights of which are available to them. What I would like for them to do, I would like for the members of the Opposition, as an academic exercise if nothing else, to read the documents. Number one, read the documents. That is a big help because they had not read it during the election.

We went through a whole election \vhen the offshore was the issue 1 and the proposal for settlement t·;hich was released by the Premier on the 16th. of March 1982, the election was not until April 6, was not read by any member of the Opposition. You will recall in the famous debate when the Premier held up the proposal for settlement for all the world to see, for all Newfoundland to see at least,and the Leader of the Opposition 3146

June 18, 1982 \ Tape No. 1487 so - 1 MR. STAGG: did not have a word in his face. Well obviously there was a good reason why. MR. TOBii~: Which leader? MR. STAGG: That was the then leader, the man who used to make the previous Stirling speeches in this House. And he did not respond to it. I thought he was being coy, Actually he was being ignorant, he had not read it. Now I would suggest to the Leader of the Opposition (Mr.

Neary), if he wishes to do something constructive during this session of the House of Assembly, to read the proposals and then put forward what the Liberal Party in Newfoundland, the provincial Liberal Party, would consider to be a reasonable settlement. What is a reasonable settlement? What is a reasonable Canadian settlement? MR. WALSH: Give it away. MR. STAGG: Put it forward, hold a press conference and say, This is what we propose, this is what we think is acceptable. Do somethinq like that, do something constructive and shift the onus to the government and say whether or not it is acceptable.

It is something, I think, that they should do, it is something that they should do to earn their money 0 Becausethey are all making a fair amount of money, they all have executive positions over there now, there are about 50 per cent of them who have executive positions in the Opposition making all kinds of money. So do something to justify it~ I Read the nroposals that have been put forward by the government concerning the offshore and then come up with a proposal of their own, something that might fly. They appear to have access to Mr. Chretien and Mr. Lalonde and Mr. Rompkey. Mr. Rompkey, who by the way - MR.

BAIRD: Rumpkey. 3147

June 18, 1982 Tape No. 1487 so - 2 MR. STAGG: Well, I will call him Rompkey. Others may call him by other parts of his anatomy, but I will call him Mr. Rompkey. Now, Mr. Rompkey, when he got up to argue in the House of Commons after Mr. Crosbie hau spoken, said that the Nova Scotians had a veto in thier agreement with the federal government. He said they had a veto. And when he was exposed by Mr. Crosbie as not knowing what he was talking about, he tried to say that they had an option. But it is there in Hansard, Mr. Chairman, Mr. Rompkey thought they had a ,veto.

Now what a man to be negotiating for Newfoundland, or be up there representing Newfoundland. He does not even know what the Nova Scotians have, yet he stands up in the House of Commons giving the Newfoundland/Federal position. Well, Mr. Chairman, I can only say that the han. members opposite­ and I think the member for the Strait of Belle Isle (Mr. Roberts) would be the man who would be most equipped of all the members of the Opposition to analyze the proposal for settlement and the Newfoundland position. I believe he has read it.

I believe that of all the members opposite that he is the man, in this particular time, to whom we can look for some leadership on the other side of the House. But for accidents of history and the machinations within the Liberal Party, he would still be the Leader of the Opposition, or might even be Premier of the Province. Who knows? But he was knifed in the back in 1977. Well I suggest that the member for the Strait of Belle Isle is 314ft

June 18, 1982 Tape No. 1488 MJ-1 MR. F. STAGG: the man who, best of all, of all members of the Opposition, and maybe of all members of the Opposition at all times, is best equipped to analyze this and put forward a comprehensive position by the provincial Liberal Party as to what is acceptable on the offshore, what is an acceptable Canadian agreement. And I suggest that they do that quickly, rather than getting up and talking about the Premier's picture and this and that and foolishness which, while it may be amusing, it is comparable to Nero fiddling while Rome burned.

Now there are Newfoundlanders are out there burning, there are Newfoundlanders who are going down the tubes, bankruptcies are at an all time high. And the member for Port au ::>o rt ( Mr. ,J. llodder ) this morning, and the member for the Strait for Belle Isle ( Mr. Roberts )J, asked some very good questions of the Minister of Justice ( Mr. Ottenheimer) concerning powers of sale, foreclosures, as they are oopularly known in this Province. And that, of course, is only the symptom. The real disease is that we have an economy that is going belly-up, in step with the federal economy.

And it is not our fault, we are doing our best under very trying circumstances. Our J?eople, fortunately, have a knowledge of what hard times are, so that they do have some ability to cope with hard times. But, Mr. Chairman, that is the sort of thing that hon. members Opposite should be directing themselves to. What is an acceptable proposal for the provincial Liberal Party? Let us get at it.

Let us analyze it and put something forward and maybe we will find some degree of unanimity on that aspect as we found unanimity recently on some motions that went before the !louse concerning the federal position of taking this matter before the Supreme Court of Canada. Let us find some unanimity on proposals of that type. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! 314q

June 18, 1982 Tape No. 1488 f-IJ - 2 ~1R . S. NEARY : Mr . Chairman. t-IR . CHAIRMAN (McNicholas) : The hon . the Leader of the Opposition . t-1R . NEARY: Mr. Chairman, neither the Premier nor the House Leader (Mr . W. Marshall) are in the nouse to answer anv ouestions that 1"e have to puL to the government . DR . COLLINS : HR . NEARY : \ve can answer any questions . Does the hon . qentleman have the little booklet in front of him to answer the questions. 1\N liON . MEMBER : Yes. MR .

NEARY: Well, could the hon . qentleman give us some information about the Classification Appeals Board under the Cabinet secretariat? Could the hon . gentleman give u.s the names of the Classification Appeals Board ,and how many appeals they heard last year ,and how many were upheld and how many 1o~ere rejected? DR . COLLINS : that? MR . NEARY: Appeals Board . 01{ . COLLIN~ : MR . NEARY: Could you just give me the Beading for It is Heaclinq 303-08, Classification Are you finished? Sure. ::J1!;fl

June 18, 1982 Tape No. 1489 RA - 1 DR. COLLINS: Mr. Chairman, the hon. member asked some information about a particular H.eading. Now we,of course,prepare for these sessions in Committee by getting some notes together to try to cover,if possible,any areas where questions might come up. Now,obviously, you know, it is not humanly possible to cover every possible question that might be asked.

So whether that detail is in here I am not sure,but I am going to see if I can find it. 303-08 is Classificat- ion Appeals Board. ~he ~oard was established pur- suant to various collective agreements between govern­ ment and its employees. The Board aids as a final in­ dependent arbitration in all individual disputes with respect to employee classifications~ T.hat is the ob­ jective of the Board. Now 1 I do not have immediately with me MR. NEARY: !;)R. COLLINS: Do vou have the names of the Bonrd? I do not have immedately with me the salary Estimates-or have I? I do not have the salary Estimates here, Mr.

Chairman, but I can easily - oh, here we are. MR. NEARY: This is shocking 1 you know. Is there nobody here to answer any questions? This is terrible~ MR. ROBERTS: in the House at all. MR. NEARY: None of these working ministers We get critized for asking questions, when we ask questions we cannot get the answers, there is nobody here to answer the questions. What a farce. DR. COLLINS: As I say, Mr. Chairman, it is impossible to anticipate that there would be information reddily at hand for every question. I can tell the hon. 31 .s 1

June 18, 1982 Tape No . 1489 RA - 2 DR . COLLINS : member that the secretary of the Classification Appeals Board is Ms. Judy Brophy, the other individuals on the board, r will have to take that question under notice and I will get back to the hon . member on that . DR. COLLINS: The total expenditure on - MR. NEARY: I gave you one under notice three weeks ago and I have not got the answer yet . DR. COLLINS : - this may be helpful ,the total expenditure on salaries is,for that particular area, $16 ,000 . And the total salaries for the whole Classification /ppeals Board was $102,000 . So I would say there must be perhaps six or seven individuals 3157

June 18, ~982 Tape No. 1490 RA - 1 DR . COLLINS : in addition to Ms . Judy Brophy . As to the number of appeals that were heard,again I will have to take notice of that, I do not have that information readily available . MR . NE .A.RY : Mr . Chairman, - MR . SPEAKER(Aylward): The hon . the Leader of the Opposition . MR . NEARY: - this is shameful and contemptible. We are asking basic,elementary questions of the ad- ministration . ~e had a lecture there a few moments ago from the t-1inister of Energy (Mr . Marshall) , the House Leader,about we were not asking the right quest­ ions .

I just asked two or three questions that any min is ter worth his salt \.,rould expect to be asked about this Appeal~ Board. MR. ROBERTS : It is £hameful. MR . NE7\RY : Give us the names of the members of the Soard . Tell us what they do . DR. COLLINS : Will you explain the importance of your que sti on? MR . NEARY: The importance of the question is that we would li ke to have some information on this item of cxnenditure . MR. ROBERTS : DR . CCt.LINS : MR . NEARY : The minister is refu sin g to answer now . Why the names of individuals ? Mr. Chairman, that is none of the hon . gentleman's business .

We will ask whatever quest­ ions we want SOr-ffi BON. MEMBERS : Bear, hear! 3157:

June 18, 1982 Tape No. 1490 R.A - 2 MR. NEARY: ~he trouble is that the minister does not have the information. MR. ROBERTS: He does not know the answer, that iR all. MR. NEARY: They should be prepared to admit that the Premier ran away this morning like a coward because he cannot face the music, cannot face the estimates of his depar±ment. MR. ROBER'rS: has lile? Gone off to look at his picture, MR. NEARY: Gone out to idolize his picture 1 down on the cushion in the Cabinet room. And the Minister of Energy (Mr. Marshall) is out trying to prop him up, the government House Leader.

A.nd so we ask two or three questions. DR . COLLINS: lJo, I was j_ust asking permission because you might not want to know. MR. NEARY: Mr, Chairman, the hon. Minister of Finance(Dr. Collins) undertook two and a half weeks ago to get me some information, he said, ' I will take it under advisement and get the hon. gentleman some in­ formation'. We have not got the answers yet. Now, Mr. Chairman, let us skip over that one and ask the hon. gentleman some questions about the Newfoundland Statistics Agency.

Could the hon. gentleman tell us what that is all about, that $271,000 and what they do, what the Newfoundland Statistics Agency do, where there offices are, how many are on staff and what kind of statistics they compile? DR. COLLINS: What page is that? MR. NEARY: It is the one before the Appeals Board,it is 303-07.We have a whole number of these to 31St.

June 18, 1982 Tape No . 1490 RA · 3 MR. NEARY : run through . If the hon . gentleman has not got the answers .well ,let us get the Premier back in the House. MR . CHAIRMAN(Aylward) : DR . COLLINS : AN HON . MEMBER : The hon . the Minister of Finance . 303 -07 - Enibarrassing . MR . ROBERTS : It is embarrassing . Sorry about that . The Premier is an embarrassment to himself and his Province . MR. NEARY : waste of time. MR . ROBERTS: minister in the House . DR. COLLINS : Mr . Chairman , this is an awful Look,there is not an important Mr . Chairman , the hon. Leader of the Opposition had carried on for a lonq period of time this morning on subjects that had no relevance whatever 31!1li

June 18,1982 Tape No. 1491 ah-1 DR.COLLINS: to the subjects under discussion, and when he was goaded for that by the President of the Council, he immediately ran out to his research assistant and said, 'Give me some questions to ask for which there is no real importance to the answer. For instance,give me a question to ask about the Appeals Board. And he said, 'Well, look, why do you not ask who are the individuals, what are the names of the individuals on theAppeals Board? Now,that has no relevance whatever. It is Mr. Tom Jones as opposed to Mr.

Bill Brown,what difference does that make?' It is not of any relevant importance to this House , it is not a matter of inforntation that one with any sense would bring into the House,because you would not expect a sensible member to ask for such a bit of information. However, it has been asked and we are quite willing to get the information. MR.NEARY: We want it now. DR. COLLINS: Well,where is the information?

It is something that is down in the files in the basement of this building somewhere· I am sure the names of all the 8,500 public servants in this Province are down in the files in the basement of this building somewhere.

And if any member opposite has the inanity to ask what are the names of the 8,500 public servants in this Province,we will be able to get those names.And we will send down for them and bring them up, but it would be a total waste of the time of this committee, it would be a total waste of the expenditure of the public servants in doing it,but we are quite willing to get it,if this is what the hon. members opposite feel is important in this very important Committee. Now if they did have the real interest of the Province at heart, they would ask questions thut are not designed just to 31SR

June 18,1982 Tape No . 1491 ah-2 DR . COLLINS : catch out, you know, questions that are of no conceivable importance . If the answer is given it will lead to nothing , it will add to nothing,it will gain no one anything . T ' the hon . members were interested in asking questions that were of importance to the people of this Province,that would be proper work for the hon . members opposite. l!o 1.,ever ,the y are not interested in doing that . Now ,the hon . member wants to know what the Newfoundland Statistics Agency is. MR . NEARY : Yes . DR.

COLLINS : This has been asked by a member who has been in this l.ouse, I think, for twenty-three years and at this point in time he still does not know what the Newfoundland Statistics Agency is. I will read it out.and I hope that he will take note while I am reading it out . 31~7

June 18, 1982 Tape 1492 NM - 1 DR. COLLINS: "•rhe Newfoundland Statistics Agency Activity consists of nine (9) established positions, see salary details below." And the hon. member has a book of s,lary details over there, so if he were really interested in knowing how many people were in the agency , all he had to do was look up his salary details.

"And entails the collection, analysis, and distribution of statistical information to all government departments and the public sector." Now ,that is a bit of information that I am glad to give a member of this House who has been in here for twenty-three years and did not know what tpe Statistics Agency was all about, and he was assisted by another member,on his right,who has been in here for perhaps twelve or fifteen years and hepresumably did not know,because he certainly did not pass the inEormation along. And there are other members who are in here for lesser periods of time.

I- have given the numbers of position, now the names- I do not have the grandparents of these individuals here but I can get that information if the hon. members opposite wish. The names are Mr. George Courage, Mr. Paul Craniford, Mr. Hugh Ridley - I see the hon. member is not writing down these names so perhaps I should repeat them because we want - MR.. ROBERTS: We get Hansard. MR. NEARY: We aet Hansard every day. DR. COLLINS: - he wanted this information, he was burning to get this information,- ~e· felt it was a discrrace if this information was not available.

I would ljke to see them write this down now just to make sure that we do not have a mis- pronunciation of one of the names or whatever. Anyway I continue on, there is also Ms. Patrician Hearn, she is also in the aqency, there is Miss Rose ann Norris, she is also in the agency • nn we have any others? Yes, we do. W~have Mr. James Warren~ Mr. James Warren is in the agency. I bet no one knew that. That is some useful information, I mean, to the committee. 31SR

June 18, 1982 Tape 1492 NM - 2 DR. COLLINS: Now.I have other useful information if the hon. members so wish. But let me, just whilst I am on my feet, Mr. Chairman , just comment very briefly on the subject matter that the hon. Leader of the Opposition (Mr . Neary) brought up about this Canadianism business, ASthe hon. member for Stephenville (Mr . Staoq) so clearly brouaht out, what the hon. members opposite are confused about is that they consider Canada is the present Federal Liberal Party . This is their conception, thi s is their vision of Canada . This is their narrow partisan view of Canada: MR .

NEARY : Liberalism is Canadianism. Canada is Liberalism . DR . COLLINS: Onless one accepts hook, line and sinker, without question , without query the line put out by the present rather discreditef Federal Lib eral Party who cannot get on with any Province in Canada, who was rejected at the economic sununit in Europe recently, who approached the Prime ~lini ster or the Premie r of Japan abo ut a certain matter ::115 '-1

June 18, 1982 Tape No. 1493 SD - 1 DR. COLLINS: and the Premier was asked about this later and he said, 'Oh, these minor matters'. MR. NEARY: Time will tell about that, Mr. Chairman, time will tell. DR. COLLINS: Now,this is the view that the bon. members opposite have of Canada and, Mr. Chairman, I think it is a tremendous shame.

We are seeing a tremendously sad thing in this House, we are seeing a great Party- the Liberal Party is a great Party, it has been in this Province for many, many years- we are seeing the Liberal Party go down the tube as definitely and inevitably as anything can happen if they go on with this line of argument. Now, I am not the only one saying that, I have asked this before, I have asked the han. Leader of ~he Opposition (Mr. Neary) and perhaps some Of his colleagues: What is unity '82? Andi have never gotten an answer. Now I know what unity '82 is.

And, of course, you always ask loaded do anyway. questions in this House,or sometimes you MR. NEARY: Joe Clark knows, Joe Clark knows what unity '82 is. DR. COLLINS: Unity '82 is a

section of the Liberal Party made up of the younger members of the Liberal Party 1 and they are trying to change the image of the established Party so that it gets away from this lap dog image it has for the federal Liberal Party in Ottawa. And they are saying, 'Thathas been so discredited, that attitude of being the lap dog of Ottawa, that the Liberal Party has been practically decimated, it has been practically wiped out ..

And they are afraid that the rest of it will go unless the whole thing is changed, so they started this movement within the Liberal Party called Unity '82 , and that is decided ~o get rid off the deadwood that is there who does not have the mental caoacitv to channe their 31Gn

June 18, 1982 Tape No . 1493 DR . COLLINS: approach , their allegiance of many weeks, months, year s past and realize that the Newfoundland people are fed up with being regarded by SD - 2 Central Canada,and specifically Centra l Canada as led by the I.iberal Party, as being lesser beings of some sort and they just need to be tossed a few pennies every once in a while and they should be quite and be grateful for what they get . The Newfoundland people are fed up with that .

The Newfoundland people say that we are a Province, we are a proud Province of Canada, we arc going to add to Canada , we are going to give to Canada, we are giving to Canada, we are going to give more to Canada if \ve get the opportunity . And that is what the Ne\•lfoundland people want and they do not see that in the present established Liberal Party such as we see opposite . Now they may see something in this new part of the Liberal Party , this unity '82 part , and if so, 3 1 Fi 'I

June 18, 1982 Tape No. 1494 RA - 1 DR. COLLINS : we on thi .s side might have a fi9ht on our hands in davs future . t-1R. NEARY: you are t-1ronq (inaudible) . DR. COLLINS : We might, \-le might .1\nd we would welcome it, because there is no fight on our hands no1·1 with the discredited Liberal Party Opposite . It is a dead duck . SOME RON . MEMBERS : Oh , oh! DR. COLLINS : And we see it in this House day a ftcr day, why it is a dead duck. 'l'hcy have no conception of what Newfoundland needs to progress .

They have no conception of what the Newfoundland people want .They have no conception - AN HON . l'1EMBF.R : (Inaudible) j n Corner Brook . OR . COLLINS : Yes, I feel like doing it too , I am a bit more partisan than my hon. colleague . I could not bring myself to go that far ,but I was very much tempted to ring, I think it was the son of a former member of this House . I think it was ~lr . Bennett .

I think it was his son who was a prime mover in the thing , and I 111as very much tempted to ring him up and say, 'Look; ~or the good of Newfoundland I really hope that you do something about the Liberal Party as we see it now,which is in such disarray which is so bankrupt of ideas, wh ich is so compromised, which is so much in the pocket ~f a few people, a (ew people themselves soon to be discredited - t-!R . CRAIRMAN(Aylward) : Order, please ! DR . COLLINS: - few people in the Federal Liberal Party. I felt like ringin g him up and saying .Congratulations ! 31G /

June 18, 1982 MR. CHl\IRMl\N (1\yho~ard) : of Belle Isle· MR. ROBERTS: Tape No. 1494 RA - 2 The hon. member for the StraiL My colleague the Leader of the Opposition(Mr. Neary) has had- MR. CARTER: Now we will hear the hate. MR. CHAIRMAN (Ayh1ard} : MR. ROBERTS: which I know - MR . CARTER: ~~R . ROBERTS: just like a tongue . MR. CARTER: Order! to leave to catch an airplane (Inaudible) You know paper can cut you, TJike a kni re. MR. ROBERTS: ¥es, the hon. gentleman from St. John's North(Mr.Carter) knows all about knives.

I noticed when his friend the - bedfellows make strange politics and politics make strange bedfellows as the sayings go- his friend the Finance Minister(Dr. Collins)- MR. TULK: Nobody knows what he is. MR. ROBERTS: -was speaking,the member from St . John's North was very much aware of unity and of loyalty and things like that. But what I was saying is my the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) has been driven from the House by the Minister of Finance(Dr. Collins) which,of course,is a clear case ?f ~he iaw bone of the ass triumnb­ ing.

No~,I do not want to get into the kind of nonsense that my friend the Finance Minister was getting on with. DR. COLLINS: (Inaudible) MR. ROBERTS: Now, Mr. Chairman, the Minister of Finance,! hope, will be able to address one or two points that I want to raise. One will be very brief. Could he tell 31 R ~

.,. June 18, 1982 Tape No. 1494 RA - 3 MR. ROBERTS: us about the size of the public service, You know, we are in this general area and I am not sure which subhead we are on, I am not sure, Your HLOnour, if we are on any particular subhead. We are getting near the end of the silly season, the Finance Minister is carrying on, we have 31 61.

June 18, 1982 Tape 1495 PK - l MR. ROBERTS: fifty minutes left,I guess, before the clock runs out, the buzzer goes, and all the estim~tes are passed without any further ado or any further debate. MR. STAGG : MR. ROBERTS: Is the hon. member agreeing to - Agreeing to what? MR. STAGG: Dumping the Liberal Party (inaudible). MR. ROBERTS: I will agree to anything that makes good sense, which probably separates me from my friend for Stephenville (Mr. Stagg)most of the time. Now,look.let me just carry on. I have only got ten minutes. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Order! MR. CHAIRMAN (~ylward): Order, please! MR.

ROBERTS: I am willing to debate with any hon. gentleman in this House even with my friend from Stephenville. MR. TULK: MR. ROBERTS: No,he would not like you too. But I am trying to keep this one on a higher plane so maybe he could wait for another time. MR. STAGG: (Inaudible) . MR. ROBERTS: Now, let me just come back- I have two questions. First - and I thank my friend for Stephenville for his very kind remarks, I do appreciate them. I agree with him,of course, but I do appreciate them. Now just let me come back the size of the public service.

We have heard from the minister and from his predecessors, illustrious or not as they may have been, that we are trying to restrain the growth in the public service. Maybe he could tell us where we are. He tells us we have 8,500 public servants so that. of course,I assume would not include most of the hospital 31R5

June 18, 1982 •rape 1495 PK - 2 MR. ROBERTS: workers in the Province who are no longer directly classified as public servants. I would also include I am sorry, it would not include the teachers and the school board employees all of whom look to the ~'\blic Chest for their salaries, fair enough, but none of them are classified as public servants. That is not correct, perhaps there may be a few teachers who are public servants but very , very few,most work for the school boards. The publicly funded service in this Province is,of course ,by far and awaytbG largest payroll we have.

And if we are going to be serious about restraining the growth in government expenditures, and I know the minister would agree that has to be one of the aims of this government here just as it has to be an aim of the Government of Canada and other governments across Canada, one of the places is the growth in the public service.

Now I am one of these who firmly believes two things, number one, that we have a competent public service in this Province with a lot of competent individuals in it, and number two, that the public service is growing rapidly,that more and more of our money is going into administration and less and less into the people that that administration is intended to benefit or intended to serve. And this causes increasing concern to me and I think to people throughout the Province.

Any of us who deals with the public service is impressed by the competence and is impressed equally by the fact that less and less seems to be accomplished of any real benefit. We are mushrooming each year, we are getting -you know, the pattern is there, We get a position and then we get an assistant and then we get an assistant to an assistant, and the next thing we know, we have 316R

June 18, 1982 Tape 1495 PK - 3 MR. ROBERTS: to create a new division or a new department or a new something or other, and the payroll grows-or the numbers of positions grow to staggering levels. 31 R 7

June 18 ,1982 Tape No. 1496 ah-1 MR . CARTER : Start it off bv resionino . MR . ROBERTS: Mr. Chairman, I feel in this House that we have twice as many members as ~•e need, and every time the hon . gentleman from St. John 's North (Mr .Carter ) speaks he d~m onstratc s Sir, which half he belonos in . This House you kno~., is probably about 20 per cent cost efficie nt on any reasonable standards \>'hich makes it t''' nty times more cost efficient than the Cabinet and 200 times more cost efficient than the member for St . John's North (Mr . Carter) .

This llouse is too large . ·~e could have a Cabinet, Sir - j ~te ad of being the swollen monster that it is with - is it seventeen or eighteen ministers now MR .TULK : MR. ROBERTS : MR .TULK : MR .ROBERTS : Twenty- one . now many parliamentary secretaries "' One, two , three, four, five . There are five ~nd then , of course, do not forge t the \"est Coast one . MR.TULK : Oh ,yes . MR. ROBERTS : MR .CARTER : district is? There are six,are there not? Docs the member know where his MR .ROBERTS : Does the member know where my district is? Yes, Mr . Chairman, and more than that - MR .TULK : Read him that letter .

MR .ROBERTS : -morethan that , ~1r . Chairman, my constituents know who their member is which differcntiDtes them from th e constituents of my friend from St . John's North (Mr . carter) . My friend from St . John 's North (~tr . 31RR

June 18,1982 Tape No. 1496 ah-2 MR.ROBERTS: Carter) may ask how I can say that. The proof is simple, he qets re-elected, his constituents cannot know who he is. They just vote for the party and they would literally vote for a yellow dog and - MR. TULK: MR. ROBERTS: that standard. You should read him that letter . - the hon. gentleman wins on Now let me come back to the point I am making which is a sensible one,and I know my friend from St. John's North (Mr.Carter) finds that hard to comprehend. MR.CARTER: nragginq. Bragging. MR.

ROBERTS: So if he would possess his sole in patience let me ask the Minister of Finance( Dr. Collins) if he would make a statement for us, brief, hopefully comprehensive ,and he can be as sarcastic as he wants. I mean,if he wants to be sarcastic that is fine and I will deal with him Hccordingly. If he wAnts to be reasonably helpful in showing us the information which I have no doub·t he has- the minister works hard, he does the best he can. I may have my quarrels with what he accomplishes ,but it is not his fault that he is the way he is, you have to take that.

But if the minister could tell us where we are going - you know, there have been innumerable statements in Budgets that we are restraining the growth in the public service. Well what kind of percentage growth are we having? What kind do we expect this year? What kind of growth 31F;CJ

June 18, 1982 Tape 1497 NM - 1 MR. ROBERTS: not only of growth in absolute numbers but the constant upgrading. We are seeing it time and time again. You know,where formerly there was one clerk ~rade IV to do a job, there will still only be one clerk but the clerk will be grade XXXXIV to do the iob. I thank my hon. friend for whateve~ it is. It is a band-aid. I am grateful to hon. gentlemen opposite, the band-aid approach is the only one they know, Sir, and we see that in industry after industry. Their approach to the fishery is band-aid.

I am going to talk a little bit about Baie Verte when I get on again in a few minutes. Their approach there is band-aid; their approach to the environment is band-aid; their approach to education is band-aid; their approach to the forest industry is band-aid; and the minister's approach to the finances of the Province is equally a band-aid. So, Mr. Speaker - Mr. Chairman, I am sorry.

Your Honour keeps moving back and forth from the Chair to Speaker, bacY and forth, I,in either case,hurnbly respect Your Honour's undoubted abilities, the prescience, the omniscience, the omnipotence, and above all the impartiality Your Honour is showing and Mr. Chairman, what I would say to the minister is could he tell us really where we are in the Public Service, the growth of the Public Service and then we will come on to some other topics. We still have forty-five exciting, glorious minutes to go. If the Minister of Education (Ms. Verge) is not careful she will have to write lines this afternoon. MR.

CHAIRMAN (Aylward) : The hon. Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr. Chairman, I am glad to receive questions of this nature from the other side of the House. We did