Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 16B (31st Legislature, 4th Session)

31-4-16b

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Time: 8: 00 p. m. LEGISLAT IVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Thursday , 13 March , 1980 CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY - ATTORNEY-GENERAL MR. CHAIRMAN, Mr. Morris McGregor (V irden ): I call the commi ttee to ord er . Resolution 21 . 7.--pas s. The Memb er for St . John s. MR• SAUL CHERNIACK : I would like to ask the Honourable Minister how much was spent last year on this Resolution? HON. GERAL D W. J. MER CIER (Osborne ): Law enforcem ent? MR . CHERNIAC K : Law enforcement , yes . I really don't mean a year ago , I mean the year that's ending , estimated expenditu re . MR . MERCIE R : Mr .

Cha irman, it 's ant icipat ed we will spend $14 ,3 40 ,000.0 0• MR . CHERNIAC K : Is that because it's all grants? MR . MERCIER : It' s no t grants , as such , Mr. Cha irman . There are some gran ts. MR. CHERNI ACK : As I understand it the province pays for the purchase of services to provide them to municip al iti es , as well as its own provincial needs , if I'm not correct ? MR. MERCIER : Yes, provincial policing cont ract . MR . CHERNIAC K : Is this only provincial policing and no thing to do wi th municipal policing? MR. MER CIER : That would include municip al contract s. MR .

CHERNIAC K : Does the Mi nist er have readily available the amount for the municipal contracts as compared with the provincial? MR . MERCIE R : We don't have that availa ble , Mr . Cha irman , but we could cal culate that and provide that to the Member for St . Johns if he wish ed. MR . CHAIRM AN : The Member for The Pas . MR . RONALD McBRYD E: Mr. Chai rperson , I asked the Minister some questions earl ier, but I'd just like to follow up first on the previous question .

The Minister would have though the amount that is direct provincial policing , as opposed to the amount of it that's municip al polic ing , I assume , or does he not have that kind of figure availa ble . MR. MER CIER : I don't have that available right at the moment . det ermine that toni ght , I'll give the memb er that figure , Mr . Chairm an. we'll calculate it and provide it at a later date . MR . CHAIRMAN : The Member for The Pas . If we can If not , MR . McBRY DE: Thank you , Mr. Chairp erson .

I had ea rli er asked the Minister some questi ons and I belie ve that he is prepared to give a li ttle bit more de- - 857 -

Thursday , March 13 , 19 80 tail ed answer on those , at this time. So if you would allow him that opportu nit y , if he would si gnal you that he is ready. MR . MERCIE R : Mr . Chairm an , we now have 13 special const ables , Indian speci al cons tables at locations throughout the province where there are reserv es . There are two more in training and two recruits processed for training . The evalua tion would indicate that the prog ram has met wi th success . We are provid ing , this year , for an expansion of the Indian special constables to 20. MR . McB RYDE : I didn 't quite catch that , Mr. Cha irpe rson .

He 's going to have to expand it up to 20 or by 20? MR. MERC IER : Up to 20. MR . McBRY DE: Yes, Mr. Chairm an , I guess I was sort of waiting; I was hop ing for a little bit fuller explanati on of what was happening .

The ot her part of the question is, like, there still is a band constable program; I know the Min ister isn 't di rectly involved in that but it would have to mesh in wi th this program, in terms that if a band in fact has a special constable under this pro gram , the 3B progr am , then they wouldn 't have the Indian Affairs constable , and I just wondered what the relationship is and how they mesh together . MR . MER CIE R : It 's not involved wi th this program at all and is no t admin ist ered by this departm ent . MR. McBRY DE: Mr.

Chairm an , I understand that but I'm trying to figure out how they do mesh toge ther though be cause there is , as I unders tand it and the Minister can correct me if I' m wrong , there are three separate programs or four .

You have the regular RCMP constable s; you have the special cons tables which are native constabl es , it's called the 3B program; then you have the band constable program where each band is able to hire its own band constable ; and you have the co mmunity and that 's adm inistered by Indian Affair s; and then you have the com munity constable program whi ch is administered by the provincial de partment of Norther Affair s.

But there has to sort of some co-ordination and some relation ship be tween those progr ams , in terms of if there 's a special constable in a certain area , then they probably don 't have a band constabl e or community con stable and there is probably some relationsh ip , in terms of train ing , that some of the band constables probably receive training wi th the RCMP.

Or maybe they receive training from the same place that the • • and I' m no t sure of those relationship s in terms of how they decide whic h community is getting a band constable or a speci al cons table or a community cons table and if they 'v e been able to work out the jurisdi ctional di fferences that occur if a band constabl e crosses outside of a rese rve and a community constable crosses into a reserve ; and how those constabl es relate to the special constabl es on the 3B program, whic h are more closely part of the RCMP admi nist ration , as I unders tand it , that is they are close to regular RCMP constables under the special 3B program.

MR . MERCIE R: Mr. Chairm an , as I unders tand it the band constables are in no way associated with the RCMP. The community constables are associated with the local RCMP Detachment . MR .

McBRY DE: I understand that the Minister with his varied respon- si bili ties might no t have oppo rtunity to be fully aware of the functioning , but I was hoping to get a little bit more detailed informa tion than that ; like what is not clear to me is the rela tionship wi th the band cons table to the special con stabl e to the RCMP through that route ; and are there in fact communities that would have a special cons table and a band cons table serving the same community or the same area? MR. MER CIER : Mr .

Chai rman , I am ad vise d that under those two progr ams , whi eh are not wi thin my de partment , that in some communit ies they do have a com munity constabl e as well as a band constable. - 85 8 -

Thursday , March 13 , 1980 MR. McBR YDE: Mr. Chai rpers on , I will put a di fferent question then . I wonde r if the Min iste r could explain then , in terms of this special 3B consta bles how close they are to regular constab les , are their functions pretty well the same as a regular constab le? Are their duties assi gned in a simila r way to the regular constables? MR. MER CIER : Mr. Chairm an , the 3B constabl es are part of the regular RCMP For ce.

My informa tion wi th respect to the band constable and community constable program is that the si tuation where bo th would be involved is where the ba nd con stable would be involved wi th the Indian population on the res erve , and the com muni ty constable would be invol ved , my advice is , wi th the Metis populatio n off the res erve , but the 3B constables are part of the regular RCMP For ce . MR. McBRY DE: Ye s, Mr.

Chairp er son , that confirms with my general im pression from travelling around the no rth , that in fact the special const ab les seem to function as a regular part of or they are assigne d duties close to their home community but as part of the regular RCMP. And the las t time I was in Moos e La ke, in fact , there was a constable hired under the 3B but he was just there on rotat ion , the same as the other constables from the rural deta chment at The Pas . They take turns spending one week at a time in that

part icular community . Does the special constab le's salary then match the regular RCMP constab le 's salary , be cause the other constable that was hired under this program that I personally know has quit the program because he wasn 't making enough money and gone bac k commercial fishi ng . And I'm wondering if there is a si milar salary level to regular constables or whether they are at a lower sal ary level ? MR. MERC IER : Mr . Chairm an , their salaries apparently are about 3/4 of a regular RCM P sal ary . MR .

McBRYDE : Would the Minis ter then be aware about what those figures would be , what a person would sta rt out under once they got their training under this program? MR. MER CIER : Around $20 ,000 , Mr. Chairman . MR. McBRY DE : Changing the questioning a litt le bit , Mr. Cha irperson .

In the remote communities there seems to be sort of a pattern that every so of ten there will be so rt of an upswing in terms of violence and property damage , etc., and mayb e once a ye ar , once every two years or once every three year s a community will go through this kind of a cycle , or this kind of a swing and there will be a very serio us problem for a short period of time, with people very afraid of what 's going to happen in their communit y .

I mean those communit ies that do n't have reg ular RCMP service or without the services of a band constable or a community constable for a period of time, and there has to be a good working relatio nsh ip , Mr. Chairper son , be tween those types of constables , and there does seem to be that at the community level at least , if no t at the broad er provincial level , and I' m just wondering if the department , if the Minister , or if th ey have a report in terms of a pattern , and what communit ies have so rt of been going through a serious law enfor cement problem now , and if those have been straightened out.

I'm aware that two years ago there was a real prob lem at Cormorant and a year or so ago in Moose Lake , and I don 't know all the other communities that well, but I wonder if there 's been so rt of an upswing of this general kind of problem , if there 's a time when the community is sort of out of control or whether • MR. MERCIE R : Mr. Cha irman , we 're not aware of any upswings recently . MR . McBRY DE: Mr .

Chairp er son , I wonder if the Minister could tell us what the de partment is doing in this area of law en forcement , or what he is aware that the RCMP is doing in this par ticular category here , in terms of assi sting con stables that are new to no rthern are as , or even those that have been in them for awhi le, in terms of underst anding the so cio -economic si tuation of native people and the cultural backgr ound , etc., etc . Is there any kind of special programs that are conducted that the department is involved in or that the RCMP have made - 85 9 -

Thursday , March 13 , 1980 him aware that they're involved in , to assist people to work with native peopl e that mi ght no t have had that kind of experience be fore? MR . MER CIER: Mr. Chairm an , I want to thank the member for asking that question , be cause we just asked for a re port on that parti cular matter from the RCMP.

To start the process with recruits , al l recruits are given what they call a cross- cultural tra ining program in Regina, Saskat chewan at the tra ining ac ad emy , whic h they describe as placing empha si s on the interaction of white and native peo ples ; therea fter in Man itoba the services of some professors from the Faculty of Education are used at various in-ser vic e training cour se , such as their leader ship course , to people who are responsible for the field training of new members coming in to the div isi on .

Time is allocated agai n , to the cross-cul tural train ing program , wi th emphasis on condi tions in this prov in ce . All members with under three year s of service in Man itoba have had this train ing at the aca demy , and app roximat ely 300 others have the bene fit of sess ions on the same topic within the divisi on training program.

The RCMP are al so, in order to stress the importance of this program , are going to util ize the services of the professors at anot her three-day cross-cul tural workshop program to take place in mid-J une of 1980 at the di vision headqua rte rs , and there will be others that will follow that throughout the year .

Effective April lst of this year , in the provincial policing pos ition, there will be established a new position of a na tive policing co -ord ina tor under the RCMP crim e prevention and police community relations unit , and the purpose of establishing this pos it ion is to enhance the nati ve polic ing program in the province and to at tempt to maintain a clos er liaiso n and involvement with the na tive peo ple , their band councils , and their nat ive police cons tables. The process of selecting the person to fill that position is presently under way . MR.

McBRY DE: To the Min is ter then , what kind of reports are coming bac k now that these people who have been through the training are out in the field? Have they found that training to be wo rthwhile? Did it seem to be helpful to the new constables? MR. MER CIER: Mr. Chai rman , al l I can indicate is that the pecial training program s dealing wi th this par ticular area have been undertaken for the past few year s. I have no adverse reports coming ba ck to me.

It is recognized it is an area in which some speci al training is necess ary for members and I would hop e that it would have a very positive resul t in the at titude and actions of the members of the force . MR. McBRYD E: Mr.

Chairper son, what seems to happen and I'm glad the Min is ter gave some elaborat ion of this program - is that wha t happ ens to a new constable that might com e from the cit y somewhere and not have experience in no rthern areas or wi th na tive peo ple or had only seen them in certain ci rcum stances before or met them in certain circumstan ces , is that because the RCMP are dealing wi th people at their worst time , you know , people that are getting in trouble with the law or peopl e that are drunk or whatever kind of proble m that they are running into , that human na ture being what it is that there of ten does develop a prejudic e because of that very limited experience that a new perso n has or that a person has .

This is one as pect and one si de benefit of the special 3B program is that the regular constables gets to meet and work alongside a nati ve constable and gets to know somebody who is not on the other side of the law at the time that he gets to meet them .

Certainly in my past experience , one of the best ways of deali ng wi th the rela tionshi p wi th the na tive people and non -nat ive people was to provide that kind of a climate or that kind of a si tuation where people were working together and where the police or corre ctio nal people , whoever , were no t just dealing wi th peopl e when they were in trouble , but deal ing with • • • I give you an example, Mr. Cha irman , that I remember when I was first a probati on of ficer in the interio r of B. C.

I assumed that all the young ki ds in one town were on probation because thos e were the only on es I met, and then later on when they formed a teen club of so me kind and I was invited to go to one of their meetings I met all ki nds of - 860 -

Thursday , March 13 , 1980 peop le that I did n 't even know lived in that community . I th ink that is what hap pens wi th police en forcement and other agencies is that the experience is often fair ly li mited . One way of deal ing wi th that , and it sounds like this program has a bit of it in there , is to have semina rs, meetings , etc. , where you have community lead ers , native lead er s, who are artic ulate and capable of deal ing with peopl e and putting their point of view ac ro ss, so that it broadens the experience , and so that the possi bi li ty of prejudic e developing is very much red uced .

I am glad to see that that kind of progr am has evolv ed . I haven 't so much in my consti tuency , Mr. Chairm an , run across many complaints in the last few years, ac tually si nce the incident at Grand Rapids , whi ch has been reported on by the Ombudsman and other s, in terms of the poli ce-native rel ation ship , and I know they 've had that prob lem in other cities .

I am just wonde ring , I do hear it from other areas often when there is a rural deta chment, where there is small res erve or a small Metis community and no t a la rge concen tra tion , that there are complaints of ha rassment or unfair treatment because the per son happens to be na tive . I wonde r if the Min is ter could tell us if he is getting those kinds of compla ints , if there has been much in that line recently in the last year or so. MR. MER CIE R : No , Mr.

Cha irman , I am not getting those compla ints , but we are assured that if the RCMP are receiving them they maintain comprehensive per so nal records of their members and if there are any indica tion on file of pre judi ce or bias agai nst native persons the mem bers are either not sent to those deta chments or would be subject to transfer . MR. Mc BRYDE: Mr.

Chairm an , I wonder if there has been any proble ms of this nat ure caused more recently when in fact the nati ve people have been taking what you would call civil diso bedience or political action in terms of hunting il legally on purpose and letting everybody know that that 's what they were do ing , if that has caused any strain on the relations hip with the law enforcement agencies in the na tive communi ties . MR . MER CIER : It is a very di fficult question to answer when it is put in those general terms . We are no t aware of any . MR. Mc BRYDE: Mr.

Chai rman , the other thing I would like to comment to the Min is ter of and urge the Min is ter in his relationship wi th his Cabinet colleag ues , becaus e he is facing a prob lem, especial ly in the remote communities in norther n Mani toba , in some of the rural remote communi ties , where the socio-e conomi c si tu a tion has actually de teriorated in a number of communities over the last two or three years , where things were happening in the communi ties where people were able to have jobs through economic development ac tiv ities , etc., so that there was in fact a decl ine in the numb er of people that were ha ving soci al problems including getting arr ested , going to jail , incl uding ho spi taliza tion , other things asso ciated wi th so cial di si ntegration , which takes place .

So I want to urge the Minister in his capacity as Attor ney-General responsible for law enforcement to understand when his colleag ues are making propos als , if they make any , in terms of econ omi c develop ment , in terms of preventive progr ams for the remote communities , be cause if that doesn 't hap pen then the problems of law enforcement get more serious . Now my general impress ion is that the law enforcem ent problem isn 't too bad at this time.

There are some remote communi ties that are still having problems and it is a problem to have the RCMP there as often as they would wish ; and it seems that when they fly in everything is all ri ght , and then the day af ter they fly out then there are so me pr ob lems arise and they have to fly ba ck in aga i n. My colleague , the Member for Churchil l, who is in the other Committee at this time and is our main critic in that area and has to be there, was passing on to me some of the conce rn of the residents of Bro chet in no rthern Mani toba and Lac Brochet .

I suppose what they would real ly like is a full-t ime con stable stationed there . Now I know this is di ffic ul t because these are fairly small communi ties , but they maintain that when you don 't have the poli ce service there or when there are no t other kinds of programs to help people kee p out of trouble , that in fact then there is bi g expense to the province of M:m itoba and to this gover nment, in - 861 -

Thursday , M:l.rch 13 , 198 0 terms of when somebody breaks the law then you have to have a special fligh t in to take the RCMP in and then you have to have a special flight in after that to bring in the court party , to bring in the judge, to bring in the legal aid, to bring in the court report er, etc ., to bring in the probation of ficer s. And then you send the person of f to jail and you have to tra ns port the person or persons out of the community, and then you have the very high cos t of keeping people incarcerat ed , whi ch is a very expens ive busine ss .

I guess the community leade rs take a look at those kinds of cos ts and say , "It would be cheaper in fact to have law enforcement here regularly as a prevent ive measure because there seems to be less problems when , in fact , the RCMP are able to be here and provide law enforcement services on a full-time basis. 11 Mr. Chair per son , that relates to my overall concern in this area , that the problems of law enforcement are getting more di fficulty because of the lack of employment op portunities and because of the la ck of economic devel opment in the communi ties .

I have seen evidence of that, and I do n't know if the Min is ter has been able, from his post, to see the evidence of that happen, but I would urge him to urge his colleag ues to reinstate some of the problems that have been cut bac k and to proceed with some of the communities ' pr epared progr ams for economic develo pment and job creation as a preventive measure in order to avoid the la rge cos ts .

You know, if you would look at it stric tly from a financial taxpayers point of vi ew the large costs , if you don 't do any thing, that ar ise in these com munities as opposed to the smaller costs if you do something . I think I gave the Mi ni ster examp les last year or the year be fore and I forget the figures now , but I th ink it was in the community of Pukatawagan , where they had a couple of students over the summer mon ths and there were no cases involving juveniles for the two mon ths of the summer .

In the ne xt two month s, if my memory serves me correctly, there were some thing be tween 30 and 40 cases involving juven iles, peo pl e that were mainly involved in recreation in that community . After they left there was between 30 and 40 juveniles that were involved wi th the law, and certainly that kind of preventive activ ity is helpful with juveniles, alt ho ugh I think wi th adults you need the broader economic develop ment and job crea tion devel opment that is availab le.

But just from a lo gical practical commonsense point of vi ew, it makes some sense to spend a few thousand doll ars in a preventive way than have to spend - what does it cos t to ke ep a per son in jail now? $12,000 to $20 ,OOO a year to keep a person incarce ra ted . And it makes a lo t of sense to spend some mon ey before law enforcement is necessary rat her than after the law enforcement is necess ary . MR . MERCIER: Fir stly, let me say if the member has any concerns about the level of police service in any community , if he would simp ly relay those concerns to us we will have a look at it.

We are continu ally looking at concerns from people and communi ties all over the province abou t the level of police service, and if he wishes we can look at Brochet or any other community he wishes . Wi th respect to the two s tu dents in Puka tawagan , I am ad vised those two students are going back - not the same two students, but two students - will be going there again this year under the Manitoba Police Commission Program , where I think about 16 to 18 students will be going into various communities, mainly in the no rth . MR . WIL SON : Mr.

Chairman , through you to the Minister, bac k when I was a member of the oppos it ion we had asked the then government to give us a per capita grant to help us solve some of the crim e proble ms in the core area of the city and I believe they came up wi th a formula of something li ke $1 .25 or $1°50 per capit a . My question is to the Minister .

Under this section, providing law enforcement pro tection for the province of Manit oba, $15 ,957 ,OOO, on March 13t h, 1979, the news services put out a press release that the province to distribute $21 mill ion to munici palit ies and it alludes that it is for police pro tection ; I wonder if the Mi ni ster could advise me, is this $21 mill ion on the per capita in additi on to this almost $16 mill ion in the budget? If the Mini ster is not familar it says here, "Mr .

Mercier said that the esti ma ted 1979 basic per capita rate will be $19 .25, whic h re presents a per capi ta increase over the 1978 level of $1 .50. 1 1 And it alludes that this money is to pro vide police protec tion for eligible urban munici pali ties whi ch do no t rece ive - 862 -

Thursday , March 13 , 198 0 direc t prov incial assis tance for policing costs . This amounts to an additonal urban service sup plement of $1. 00 per capit a up to a population of 7,500 and $2.00 per capita over 7,500. I can ga ther from my reading of it that there is other moneys besides this almost $16 mill ion that go towards the policing of our munici palit ies ; am I correct ? MR. MERCIER : Mr. Chairman , that formula was revised this year . The amount available under that pro gram rose to about $2 4 millio n .

The basic per capita grant was raised to $20 per capita for all municip alities ; and for cit ies , towns, and vill ages under 5, 000 population they receive an addi tional $3 .75 per cap ita ; and cities over 5, 000 per capita receive an addi tional $5. 75 per ca pita . The city of Winnip eg , I take it the member is re ferring to , Mr. Cha irman , their moneys whic h they received under that program rose from about $1 1.8 mill ion to $1 4 million. They rece ived about $2. 2 million of the growth in that fund of abou t $3. 2 million .

I may be of f here one or two points but that • • • The previous government establis hed the previous formula of a basic per capit a grant plus $1.00 for mu ni ci palities under 7 ,5 00 , and $2. 00 over 7 ,500 and refer to that as a spec ial urban services grant and funds for police cos ts , recogn izing , I think , at that tim e that the larger the municip al ity is, as we have recogn ized , the hi gher their per capi ta cos t has been , and police budgets form 17 to 20 percent generally of the average munici pal budget.

So we attempted to recognize the additional police costs that large cities li ke Winnipeg and then outside the city of Winnip eg , ci ties like Steinba ch, Iauphin , The Pas , Portag e La Prairie , Brandon , the extra costs that those larger urban centres have and we revised that formula along that line to attempt to provi de them with some addi tional relie f. MR .

WILSON : Well , I'm pleased to see that our gover nment is more than keeping pace wi th inflation but I wanted to • • • Is there anywhere in the system where the total cos t of policing the province on a per capi ta bas is is compiled by Stats Canada , or has somebody ever condu ct ed a study ?

Because in the three to four years that I was on the Finance Commi ttee and charged with handing out the salary increases to the police force , they always used to arrive at their salary on a comparison basis with other western provi nces , particularly Edmonton and Vancouv er , and I wonde red if such figures are ava ilable anywhere to give us some idea as to whether we have an extremely good per capit a arrangement or whether we 'r e falling away behind .

Because the opp osit ion always likes to re fer to us as being last in Canada and I would gather by the generous increases the Minis ter has announced last year and his explanation now that we are giving the forces more funding for police prote ction , and I wondered if there is such a table anywhere. MR . MERCIE R: Mr. Cha irman , we are no t aware of that total figure . It would have to be put together from a number of sources and , in answer ing this ques tion , Mr. Cha irman , there was a question from the Member for St. Johns earl ier about the amount of th e munici pal policing contracts .

I'm ad vi sed that those app roximate $4.5 mill ion and they are not included in this law enforcement figure that he sees here, because that is a contract between the muncipality and the federal government which is app roved and si gned by the provincial government but it is a direct contract between the municipal and federal governm ent . MR. WILSON: I have ano ther matter. The Min ister invited us all if we felt we had some concern about the level poli ce service .

I find that most of the hotels in the city that are the old-style bee r pa rlour type of hotel and have musi cal entertainment, there seems to be a great deal of trouble to the community on Friday and Saturday even ings and sometimes on Thursday , and I wondered if it would be poss ible , I noted with interest the other day when I had the occasion for the first time to at tend the Carleton Club that they had two City of Winn ipeg police constables there and when I inquired about it they told me it was part of the rental arrangeme nt , and I wondered if it was poss ible ra ther than hi ring bouncers , which seems to aggravate more fights and assaults and intimidate the peo ple that ha ve got a problem when they 'r e drinking , I would li ke to see us come to the st age where the hotelkeepers , in order to sat isf y the community would be - 863 -

Thursday , March 13 , 1980 abl e to , or can they , rent two constables in full uniform for the $16 or $18 an hour that I believe the Carleton Club pays for these two constables to be there . Is the Mini ster familar with this practis e? MR . MERCI ER: Mr. Cha irman , I would assume that polic emen who are doing that would be doing that in their spare time or days of f. They would be paid di rectly by the establ ishment for that purpose , as I think they do on other occasi ons too . MR.

WILSON: I have no quarrel with this , ex cept they are in full dress and they do have a gun wi th them and they do have all the badges and paraphernal ia . I am saying that I would like to see this service extended to the hotels in the province , and I just wanted to put that on the record .

The other concern is , the reaso n leading up to that is because I wan ted to send these pi ctures do wn to the Ministe r , we have an unbelievable si tuation where we have these security rent-a-cop chaps that are in full attire , their uniforms are more spif fy than some of the Lieutenants in the force , and their cars have flashers on the roof and large logos on the si de wh ich look li ke the city of Winnip eg crest , and my conce rn is that many of these cha ps are lac king in police traini ng .

And I'm just wondering , ha s the government ever done a study as to what du ties these people are to pe rform wi thout runn ing on a very thin line of what I call impersonating a police of ficer , because by the looks of these pictures you would have a ha rd time telling whether these people were indeed security people , as the ori ginal concept I believe was to be a security system for the private secto r.

I don 't know , I have mixed emotions , I guess if the comm unity wants to pay for it , but it seems you have a duplica tion of servi ce of these cars runn ing around wi th the app earance of being police cars. I just want to send the pictures down , I do n't need them ba ck , for the Min ister 's vi ewing and maybe he can care to bring it up with his staff at so me later dat e . Mr . Chai rman , last but not leas t, I wond ered where in the Minist er 's budget I mi ght talk about people that are arrested for certain threa ts made agai nst people in publi c of fice and people in high positions.

They are , through the advice of their lawyers and through the certificate of some psychia trist are decla red in sa ne, and these people do not seem to appreciate that by li sten ing to their lawyer and taking the road out that they could face a jail term unless they copped a plea to mental insa ni ty , that they are indeed sentencing themselves to li fe. And I wond ered if the Min ister ha d looked at this pract ice to see that --(Inter jection )- - the Member for Burro ws is smil ing about this one.

But this was some thing that was brought up under the former gov ernmen t and it was proved that many people were locked up that shouldn •t be locked up be cause of la ck of safe guards or lack of a seco nd opi ni on.

And I' m wondering what is the present policy of this gov ernment pertaining to peopl e that are locked up in the Health Sciences Centre and others, that somebody checks them out to see that they are no t be ing ill-advised by their lawyer or through other reaso ns , a drinking problem or others; that they have somebody look at them so they don 't spend a lif etime , or two year s, or six mon ths, or whatever , in a par ticular institu tion that engages in sho ck treatments that takes away all the menta lity that these people once enjoyed .

I speak from a consti tuency problem where the fellow ha d hi s Mast er 's Degree and was under a domestic pressure and he was kept there for a good deal of time until this member and other members, politicians and church peopl e, ask ed for a seco nd op inion and the gentleman was not mentally insa ne; and I just wondered what saf eguards , or where in his budget, can I talk about this? Or is what I have said suffici ent ? MR. MER CI ER: Mr.

Chai rman , under the Board of Review , I th ink the member could di scuss the people who are found unfit to stand trial by reaso n of insanity , where they 're facing charges under The Crim inal Code . For other peopl e I would suggest it would be disc ussed under the Min ister of Community Services and The Mental Health Act . But people who have been held under the jurisdiction of the Board of Review , the Board of Review meets mon thly and there is a requ iremen t to ensure that indivi dual cases are reviewed every si x month s. - 864 -

Thursday , March 13 , 198 0 MR . WILSON: Well, what I' m saying then , in any matter that is under your department you have more than just one opinion . What I'm concerned about - I'm no t ques tioning the integrity of the psychia trist - I'm ask ing , like in any medical profes si on , they urge you to get a second opini on , and I'm wondering , does our government , when anybody is jailed for whatever reason , pertaining to a mental disorder , that at least more than one psych iatrist looks at the gentleman , or lady . MR . MERCIE R : Mr .

Cha irman , I'm unclear as to whi ch kinds of cases are be ing ref erred to . We have, for example , on the Board of Review , a psychiat ri st. If the member is re ferring to The Mental Health Act I can tell him there was a report from the Law Reform Commiss ion last year which re commended some revisions to The Mental Heal th Act which is under act ive conside ratio n wi th the Department of Heal th and Community Servic es , and I an ticip ate there might very well be some legislati on brou ght forward this sessi on. MR. CHER NIAC K : Thank you , Mr. Chai rper son .

The $14 mill ion that was spent last year , $14 mill ion plus , was all on a contr act . Was that an amount that was negotiated and the amount settled prior to the Estimates last year? MR . MERCI ER : Yes, Mr. Cha irman . I passed out , and I guess the member wasn 't here at the beginning of the Estimates when I passed out some

summary figures , I' ll give this set to him . Page 27, Mr . Cha irman , shows expenditures under the five-year agreement si gned May 10 , 1977 with the RCMP. We are going into the last year of the contract , 1980 -81 . Unde r the contract , the member will note , I th ink as he may recollect the provin ce 's percen tage share of the cost has gone up one percentage point each year and the federal governme nt 's has gone down . So the province each year has incurred , as well as the general costs in crease , an extra percen tage of the total cost each year . MR.

CHERNIACK : Is there an escala tor involved in this . I see that the amounts ••• MR. MERC IER : Yes. MR. CHER NIA CK : Are these calendar years? Oh , it's a fiscal year . The same fiscal year? If it's the same fiscal year is there an escalato r that accounts for the di fference between the amount shown on page 27 and the amount shown in this resolution? MR. MER CIER : Yes. MR. CHERNIACK : All ri ght , I won 't press that. How does that relat e to the 20 mill ion and some that the Min ister was talking earlie r about contributions to municipalities as well , so me four and a half million that the . MR.

MERCIE R : The matter that the Member for Wolseley raised was I think with respe ct to The Provincial-M unic ipal Tax Sharing Act and the amount raised by 2.1 points of pers onal inco me tax and 1 of corpo rate tax and the manner in which it is distributed to municipalities in the province . MR . CHERNIACK : Mr. Chairm an , I'm still not clear . The Min ister mentioned four and a hal f mill ion dollars that doesn 't show up in this estimate . MR . MERCIE R : Earlie r, Mr . Cha irman , I think if I was corr ect , the Member for St . Johns asked if the $15 ,957 ,OOO figure included municipal police con tract s .

That figure does not include municip al police contr acts , Mr. Cha irman . Those are estimated in the province at ap pro xima tely $4 ,500 ,000 and are paid di rectly by munici pali ties to the federal governme nt . And MR . CHERN IACK : So it 's not paid at all from provincial moneys . MR . MERCIE R : No . - 865 -

Thursday , March 13, 198 0 MR. CHER NIA CK : Well then when we speak of some $21 million last year , the item whi ch was exactly a year ago today , which was re ferred to by the Member for Wolseley , that $21 milli on , I ass ume, ha s nothing whatsoever to do with this item be fore us no w. MR. MER CIER : Other than , Mr.

Chairm an , that 's money that municip al ities rece ive which they can spend for munici pal purposes , one of which has been id entif ied in the past, par ticularly in the urban services supplement , as being police costs , and the reason why there is an increased formula for munici pali ties with larger populatio ns . MR. MER CIER : Mr . Chairman , where is the suppl ement sho wn in the es timates? The Min is ter doesn 't seem to unders tand what I mean .

He re ferred to a supplement as being paid which I assume is purely provincial moneys , the supple ment ; or does the supplement come out of that $21 mill ion as used as a different ap porti onmen t? MR. MER CIER : That 's correc t , Mr. Chairman . The total $21 million last year , $2 4 mill ion this year app roximately • MR. CHER NIACK : Incl udes the supplement? MR . MERCIE R : Includes the supplement , yes .

The previous government had estab lished this formula of establi shing a basic per capita rate and , for example, last year was $19 . 25 , and then they had develo ped the pra ctice of giving an extra $1 .00 per capita up to a population of 7 ,500 and then an extra $2 .00 per capit a over 7 ,500 perso ns.

I indicated to the member that we revised that formula so that this year with the increase there's a bas ic per capit a of $20.0 0 , that with ci ties, towns under 5, 000 , we changed that figure down from 7, 500 to 5, 000 , they get an extra $3.7 5 per capit a and then cities, towns over 5, 000 population get an extra supplement of $5 .75. And as did the previous government we have reco gnized that the Urba n Services Supplement is intended to recogni ze the needs of urban munici palit ies to provide police pro tecti on and other urban servi ces . MR . CHER NIACK : Mr .

Chairman , I want to suggest to the Minis ter that the government has no control wha tsoeve r over how the money is to be spent by the municip ali ties receiving this $24 mill ion and only has control over the dist ri bution of the money as to the ap portionment amongst municip ali ties . MR. MER CIER : Do you agree with that? MR . CHERNIA CK : I am suggesting to the Min ister that that is the fact . Is that the fact ? MR. MER CIER : Ye s, Mr. Chairman . MR. CHER NIACK : Yes , Mr.

Chairman , in that case si nce nobody outside of the Executive Council knows what goes on in the minds of the members of the Executive Council when they make decis ions as to the apportio nment of this money amongs t munici paliti es, then no one I believe , Mr. Cha irman , and I challeng e the Ministe r , has a right to say that this is for police protection or anything else. It is a formula, whi ch in the wisdom of the members of the Executive Council , is to be used for dist ribut ion of moneys which do not belong to the prov ince . MR. MERCIE R : Mr.

Chairm an , I have indicated in the previous governme nt , and I don 't wan t to rely on them certainly for a precedent for everyth ing , but they did establ ish a formula which gave to la rger munici pali ties $2.0 0 per capita, smalle r munic ipalities $1 .00 per capita , and said that was to be an urban services supplement to recognize police services and other urban serv ice s , whic h I assume that they though were highe r in larger munici pal ities , as I believe they are and I think as the figures show.

In the la rger urban munici pal ities the cost per capita providing services is grea ter . --(Int erjec tion )- - Just a minute , Mr. Chairm an , we - 866 -

Thursd ay , March 13 , 1980 recognize that prin cip le, certainly we give the money to the municip al ities . They will decide how they want to spend it but in giving it to them we are at tempting to recogn ize that urban munici pal ities throughout the province do , for example, have hi gher police costs than smalle r munici pali ties . MR. CHER NIA CK: Mr. Chai rman , I, of course , rej ect compl etely the term "give the money ." The Province of Man itoba does not give one penny • • • MR. MER CIER : Di stri bute . MR.

CHER NIACK : • • • and the Attor ney-General has no right whatsoever in law no r morally to say , "We give the money ," whi ch he has said a numb er of times and which he implies. And even this one-year old news release impl ies that this is some thing wi th the good grace of the Government of Man ito ba is being dist ri buted or , as he used the expression several times the last time we spo ke, "Give the money ." And I make that point as strongly as I can , Mr.

Cha irperson , because it is a dist ortion of th e fact and it so happens that this Minis ter , of all Ministe rs , was part of the city whi ch pleaded for a share in growth taxes , and was given the right to particip ate in growth taxes , and when the increase from $21 mill ion to $24 mill ion re ferred to by him is quoted , it should be stated that it comes abou t only becaus e that is the increased revenue that is collected from these growth taxes , the income taxes , bo th personal and cor pora te , and is no thi ng which comes out of the governm ent 's budget, neit her federal nor provinci al , but is indeed a payment to the munici palit ies as their share of growth taxes .

I th ink it is imp ortant to say that because when the Minister , in his statement of a year ago - and there is no rea son to think that there is n't a much more statement either already made or about to be made - where he talks about in creases , that those increases are no t anything that comes , in total , from prov incial revenues . That is why , Mr. Chairper son , we cannot find any reference to it in the Estimates . MR . MERCIER: No , Mr. Chai rman , and probably the matter is more app ropriately dealt wi th in Munici pal Affai rs or Urban Affairs .

The question , though , as I understood it from the Member for Wolsel ey, related to what , if anything , is the province doing in the way of helping the City of Winn ipeg with resp ect to poli ce costs . We have this respo nsi bi li ty in dist ribut ing the money . I recogni ze and I agree with the Member for St. Johns , it is the munici pal ities ' money . There is no question abou t that . The province under the legislation , as did the former governme nt , has the responsibility for establishing the method of dis tribution .

The previous gov ernment established one method , which I have referred to ; this year we have revised that method of dis tribution to attempt to recognize the highe r costs of the municipal ities with larger populatio ns , wh ich , as one example, have a hi gher cost in providing police services than do smaller munici pali ties . MR. CHER NIA CK: Mr.

Chairm an , I am glad the Minister has agreed to my insis tence , my sta tement, as to the way this money arri ves and the fact that it is not provinci al , and I hope that in the future we will not have occasion to point out again and agai n, as we have in the past , that this money is growth revenue which the municipalities asked for and receiv ed . I want to point out just one other thing . He keeps talking about police pro tection. That may be in his mind, but I think he knows and will agree that it need no t be in the mind of the municip ality whic h has the money and that it may spend it as it pl eas es .

It may spend all of the money in recreation and , there fore , the thought that the Min ister has it be cause of police pro te ction is only his own guess as to why , he perso na lly, and mayb e if he wants to reveal what goes on in Cabine t he 'l l tell what others did , and if the Min is ter is constan tly rely ing on the previous gov ernment 's at titude, then maybe he sho ul d JOl.n the New Democra ti c Party , he 'l l learn a lot more about the policie s of our party than by that .

Mr• Chairm an , my point is that once he, as a member of the Ci ty Council, was one of those who asked for a parti ci pa tion in growth taxes and are getting them. They should not continue to take credit for monies that are being collected by the - 86 7 -

Thursday , Mar ch 13 , 198 0 munici pal ities . As a matter of fact , we, the New Democratic Governm ent , indicated to the munici pali ties MR. MER CIER: A po int of order , Mr. Chairm an . MR. CHA IRMAN: The Honourable Minis ter , on a point of order . MR . MER CIER: Yes, Mr. Chairman , I tried to tie in the Member for Wolseley 's ques tions into the Attorney-G eneral 's Estimates . I think the Member for St . Johns is now gone much further afield and wishes to get into the whole rela tions hip of munici pal affai rs.

I would very mu ch like to dis cuss that wi th him , but I th ink it should properly be disc ussed in Urban Affairs or Munic ipal Affai rs. MR. CHAIRM AN: We are on Law Enforcemen t, No . 7. The Member for St . John s. MR. CHERN IA CK: Ch the point of order , I agree wi th the Min ister absolutely that when we are talking about this $21 mill ion , now $24 milli on , whic h is munic ip al money , that it should be discussed under Munici pal Affai rs or Urban Affair s, but , Mr. Chairm an , he is the one who kept talking about polic e pro tection .

He is the one who was talking abou t the --( In terjectio n)- - Yes , and if you had list ened you would have heard the Minister agree , but this is his state ment and it deals wi th police pro tection . So I only rose to his bait , because he talked about provincial --( Int erjec tion )- - But we are dealing now with Law Enforcement and we are dealing wi th prevent a tive polici ng and he talked about it .

If he wants to withdra w that claim that that mo ney , whic h was not hi s to determine as to how it is to be spent , is not involved in the Attorney-G eneral 's Department , and has nothing to do with polic e protection except that the province apparen tly recognized an increased amount payable to urban munici palit ies , and that is a munici pal thing . It has nothing to do with police and that is the point I am mak ing . MR. CHAIRMA N: The Honourab le Minis ter . One per son at a time. MR. MERCI ER: I do disagree wi th the Member for St. Johns , Mr. Cha irman .

I think the former Pr emier of this province can be relied on as having done some good things and wo rthwhile things to follow , and unlike him , I think the idea of rec ogn izing the di fferential in di stri bution of these monies to recogn iz e hi gher police costs of larger munic i palit ies was a good step and we follow that step and revise it hop efully to be more equitab le. MR. CHER NIACK: I'l l just make the point and I will debate it with hi m la ter on . fut the poi nt I am making is that he has no right to claim that it is for police protection.

All he has the right to claim is that the formula was revised and wei ghted in favour of urban munici palit ies because of hi gher urban costs . That is the statement he can make, which I would agree with , and if he wants to follow the leader , follow my le ader , former Premier , that is fine , but let hi m follow the lead er and not just pi ck what suits hi m. MR. CHAIRMA N: The Member for Ste. Rose . MR . A. R. (P ete ) ADAM: Th ank you , Mr. Chairm an . I would like to ask the Min is ter just what police protec tion do livestock pro ducers have in this province ? MR.

CHA IRMAN: I just wonder if we could attract all members to come a li ttle closer to the mike when you are speaking ; it is easie r to carry up here . MR. ADAM: I guess I opened a can of worms ; it looks like there is a con ference going on at the other end . MR. MER CI ER: Mr. Chai rman , we have been requested by the Union of M:m itoba Munici palit ies in one of their Resolutions , a very gen eral Resolution wi th respect to , I th ink they were asking for higher sentences for ca ttle rustl ing . - 86 8 -

Thursday, March 13, 1980 MR . ADAM : Higher what? MR . MERCIER : Higher sentences or harsher sentences for cattl e rustling . When we met wi th them I asked them what specific cases they were referring to. They couldn 't give us any specific cases, so I indicated to them that what I would do is through the de partment try to do a review through all Crown prosecutors to find out how many cases have been dealt with in recent times, and that review is still under way . It appears that there may have only been one incident of cat tle rustling in the past year, but, Mr.

Chairman, if the member would like, I would provide him with a copy of our response to the Union of Manitoba Municipalities when we have the review completed throughout the provin ce. MR . ADAM : Yes, I would certainly appreciate receivin g the results and • MR . MERCIER : Pardon me, if the member could excuse me. There is only one man charged, that doesn 't mean that there was only one incident of cat tle rustling . MR . ADAM : Mr .

Chairman, that is why I am bringing it up, because we know that there is rustling going on all over thi s province wherever livestoc k is being lost, for whatever reason, and reported as being lost. I would like to know if the Min iste r can tell us toni ght what improvements are required, or what improve ments he feels is necessary to provide better protection for the livestock produ cers of this province in a matter of a very serious and perplexing problem that is facing livest ock produce rs.

I am sure the Minister of Government Services will agree with me that it is a problem and a conti nuing and ongoing pro blem. What recommendations are coming from law enforcement officers in regard to what do they need, what do they require to be able to apprehend and convict people? MR . MER CIE R : Evidence would be a good start I guess. But, Mr. Chairman, we are in the midst of preparing this review and I would like to make a comprehen si ve reply to the Union of Ma nitoba Municip alities who raised this, and will provide the member with a copy .

My understandin g in the interim is the RCMP have a cattle rustler co-ordinator who co -ordinates all of the investigations wi th respect to cattle rustling to make sure all detachments are aware of the reports with respect to cattle rustling . I suppose part of what may be requir ed is a prevention program so that people report suspicious circumstances to the police authoriti es. I know in the past I have seen reports that branding is apparently a problem, there is no system of brand in g, which makes it sometimes di fficult to prove the charges and obtain eviden ce. MR . ADAM : Yes, Mr .

Cha irman, the Minister indicates that there has only been one conviction of cattle rustling this year, is that correct? MR . MERCIE R : One man charged is my understandin g . MR . ADAM : There has only been one charge? MR . ME RCIE R : Yes. MR . ADAM: Well, that is unbelievable, Mr . Chairman . We know that there are cattle being lost by the hundreds throughout the province and we have one cha rge . What is real ly going on, what is necessary here to try and improve this sit uation, Mr . Chairman?

In the last ei ght years I have had rancher after rancher coming to me and saying, "Look, our cattl e are lost ." They get the law enforce ment officers to go out and well, they just have no trouble . I brought this up in a most preliminary way when we were deal ing on the criminal investigations, but I want to put it in the record of a particular case and how dif ficult it is to get even the law enforcement of ficers to move and make a thoro ugh investig ation.

I am doin g it for the record, but I would like the Ministe r to give us some information and also put in the record whether or not the RCMP have been in touch with his department requesting legislati on. Or what do they need to reduce the incidence of livest ock rustling in this province? Do we have to set up vigilante committees and go back to the old lynchin g days of the Wild West? - 869 -

Thursday, March 13, 1980 Mr . Chairman, there is a case, and I am sure there is more than one - we have had one case around Ste. Rose where 20 Charlois cows went missing and they were never found . There is no way of finding what happened to those livestock . They were reported and we don't know where they went . In the Dauphin area there have been cattle di sappearin g, reports have been made, nothing happens . One particular case that was brought to my attention was that four branded cows wi th their calves went missin g in 197 6 , and some years prior to that there were 20 head missing in the same ar ea.

The four cows were brand ed ; they di sappeared in the fall, and the first fall and winter the owner made enquiries throughout the area, to his neigh bours, to no av ail. In 197 7 the livestock were still missing . In 19 78, however, the owner, who had lost the li vestock along with another person , identi fied one of his animals in another person 's pasture .

This happened during harvest, and he was busy ; they identi fied the brand, both people identi fied this brand, and he was busy harv est ing so he thought well it 's okay, it has been missing for two years, it 's there, I know where it is , I will go and get it in a day or two .

In a couple of days, the fellow that was in possession of this animal came over to the guy who had lost the livestock and said to him, "There 's a dead cow in my pasture ." So, why he went to see this fellow, we still don 't know, why he went to see the fellow who had lost the cattle, but anyway, he didn 't realize that he was talkin g about his own cat tle. But when he went to find the cattle to go and look at the dead animal, it had been buried, and he couldn 't identif y it . He identif ied it in a preliminary way, but he couldn 't ident ify his brands or anythin g, as it had been buried .

In the fall of 1979 , he identified another animal that had been lost in 1976 in the same pasture as the previous animal, along with a cal f. And so he was with another party and they went in and took possession of the animal and took it home . And then they reported this incident to the RCMP, and that is the fir st inst ance that the law enforcement officers were involved, is in the fall of 1979. And the animal had been taken out of the pasture without her ca lf. They caught the cow, but they couldn 't catch the calf, and the original owner of the ca ttle took that animal home .

And the RCMP was called in, and then they went to see the fellow who owned the pasture where it was. And anyway, Mr. Cha irman, of course the fellow deni ed . He said, "It's my cow." And there were two brands on the cow ; the first brand of the original owner, and the brand of the second owner . So the fellow who had had the cow in his pasture went and got a court order to seize the cow from the guy who had taken it out of his pasture . And the cow was held in escrow, or wherever they' re held . She was held in some manner, or con fined, Mr . Chairman, she was held in conf inement until it could be decided .

Then there was a di sagreement as who had the ownership of this animal, and the fellow who had ••• -- (Interj ec tion )-- Mr . Cha irman, this is serious and the fellows are making fun of it. This is serio us . Hundreds of thousands of dollars are lost every year on this thing . The last guy who had possession of the animal and then got the sheriff to seize the animal and bring it back until they could det ermine ownership, then he filed a ci vil suit in order to get himself off the hook .

And when this went into court, it was a judged that the animal did, in fact, belong to the original guy who had taken it out of his pas ture. And the guy who had had the cattle for four years, four cows - well at least two anyway that we know of ; the other two, he was never able to find them - the guy had the calves of those cows for four years, the cow that was wi th the ca lf in 1979 was never found . They went back to look for it ; it had di sappeared . They couldn 't find the calf at all . And the fellow paid one dollar in damages, and the original owner got his cow bac k .

He paid one dollar, and he had to pay all the court costs, and he had to pay the costs incurred by the defendent, and the defendent was the original owner of the ca ttle. And this is an intolerable situati on, Mr . Chairm an . Now, something has to be do ne. I have broug ht it to the Deputy Minister 's attenti on . I have asked him to look into this case, and I am waiting for some action on this because it appears - I have my notes here - it appears that there has been some laxity on the part of law enforcement, in fact, on the part of the Crown prosecutor in this ca se. MR . MERCIE R : Mr .

Cha irman, I understand the Member for Ste. Rose brought this matter to the attention of the department one week ago, and a report has been requested and will be forthcomi ng . - 870 -

Thursday, March 13, 1980 MR. CHAIRM AN: The Member for Wo lseley. The Member for Lakeside . HON. HARRY J. ENNS : Mr . Chairman, the Member for Wolseley has agreed to allow me to enter this debate just at this time I apologize ; I know other people are on the list, if I have that leave . I simply want to indicate that the Member for Ste . Rose raises a valid and a serious matter that is of considerable conce rn to a number of cattlemen in the province of Manito ba .

I am sure he would also agree that in those provinces, in those jurisdicti ons that have formed rela tively str ong cattle associatio ns and that have been able to impress upon their gover nments, and particularly through the Department of Agriculture, the kind of co- operat ive brand inspection pro grams that our law enforcement officers say are mandatory towards any real resolution of this problem, that that is the first step that has to be taken, wi th some di fficulty, and I mi ght say with some opposition from honourable members oppos ite .

That catt lemen 's association was formed last year by this Legislature and by this governmen t. It is now a well-funded organ ization that can begin to undertake the necessary education program that 's required, firstly among the cattle producers of this provin ce. It includes all cat tle producers, I am told . Vir tually none have exercised the option that they have to voluntarily opt out of the assoc iati on.

And I am aware of - and I don 't want to steal any of the Min ister of Agriculture 's thunder - but he is in the process of negotiating or discuss ing with the newly -formed cattlemen 's Association of Man itoba a program which hopefully will ass ist this producer group to bring about a brand inspection program in the province that in my judgment, and in the judgment of most people involved in the cattle industry, is a very important prerequisite to serious attempts at law en forcement in this ar ea. So that it shouldn 1 t be left on the record that al though the Honourable Member for Ste.

Rose des cribes di fficulties in his colourf ul style from time to time, that there might have been some levity expresse d on this side of the House. Cer tainly, let the rec ord show that it was this government that has assis ted, in my judgment, the catt le producers in the province in the Manito ba, in a very real way, by allo wing them to set up their associati on to begin this education process, and to allow them to work co-operatively with law enforcement officers to bring about some resolution to this problem. MR . CHA IRMAN : The Member for St . Bonif ace . Do you have the chair? The Member for Wolseley.

MR. WILSON : Well, I wanted to just say that it goes beyond that in that Alberta has had about 2,5 00 mutilations, so it goes beyond just the cattle rustling . I think there is mutilation of calves and that, allegedly by certain sects who like to obtain parts of animals for di fferent cult reasons, and some religious, some Satan, other dif ferent types, that there has been a great slaughter of cattle in the Alberta ar ea. And I think we would do well to study what they are doing to offset this .

I did want to say that as an absentee owner of pasture land, I can tell you it's no bed of roses and I think there is ••• well, I am following the Member for Ste .

Rose in saying that I do n't think that too many absentee owners now are going into the ca ttle business because of the cat tle rustling problem, and because • • I wanted to add to the record that in my case I arrived out at the farm to find a large number of horses pasturing on my land, and I found that the haystack that was there two months earlier had disappeared, so I am just simply saying that there is indeed a problem, not only for the rustling of cattle but of absconding with things that would be called, I guess, under the enforcement, trespass .

I did want to use this opportunity also to talk about the posting of land . It may be considered under a game warden, but these hunters come out and even when the land is posted, they shoot out all the windo ws in the trailers, and they shoot out the yard lights, and they just generally go on a real shooting spree .

And I think at some point in time, the media is going to have to point out when some of these of fenders are caught, that these people are mentioned in the paper so that it will be a warning to others that we have a law enforcement out there, we have laws, and that this type of destruction will not be tolerat ed. - 871 -

Thursday, March 13 , 1980 MR . CHAIRM AN : The Member for St . Boniface . MR . LAURENT L. DESJAR DINS : Mr . Chairman, I forgot my questions si nce we started on the rustling, but I want to go back to the police protec tion. The Minister mentioned that this money, and like my friend from St . Johns said, it was from the growth tax . Now, earlier this afternoon, the Minister said that the pro vince was finan cing the police in di fferent communities of , I think it 's 500 that you were loo king at, it may be changed now . Where does that money come from?

Is that part of the same fund of the grant that goes to municip ali ties? MR . MERCIE R : No . MR . DESJAR DINS : And then these smaller municipal ities are getting the grant , or communit ies, and besides that, they are getting the free police paid for by the province direct - right? MR. MERCIER : Those municipalities, Mr . Chairman, would not be receiving the supplement gra nt . They would be rece iving the basic per capita only . MR . DESJAR DINS : So they would receive less, and this would be in lieu of that. MR . MERCIER : Yes. MR . CHAIRM AN : The Member for St . Johns . MR . CHER NIA CK : Mr .

Chairman, on that point . I would like the Minister, please, to let us have a per capita breakdo wn of this item of $15 milli on, well, close to $16 milli on, and confirm the fact that it 's not the urban municip al ities that get this money . And therefore, I would like a comparison as to how this $16 million is dist ributed in expenditure to serve a number of Ma nitoba ns, and find out the per capita as related to the provincial contribution per capi ta to the urban municip ali ties that have their own poli ce forc e. Now, is that a reasonable request? Can the Ministe r give us that, in time? MR .

MERCIER : I am not sure exactly what the member is ••• MR . CHERNI ACK : Thank you, Mr . Cha irma n. The $16 mill ion that we 'r e talk ing about is used to provide polic e services, not for all Manitobans, but only for Mani tobans who do not live in the urban are as. Is that a correct statement? I mean, do I and the Minister, the Attor ney-General, as residents of Winnipeg , do we get any of this police service referred to in this item? MR. MERCIER : Mr . Chairman, there is some service to, for example, the City of Winnipeg from that RCMP contract, but not a great de al. MR. CHER NIAC K : No .

Well, I ass ume that 's the investigation of certain crimes. MR. MERC IER : Commercial fraud cases MR . CHERN IACK : It 's nowhere near the per capita contribution that goes to smaller municip aliti es. And I am asking whether it would be possible to give us a breakdo wn where, for example, I was a counc illo r at Winnipeg Beach, and entire services, as I recall it, were provided by the province - the Attorney-General says no. MR. CHAIRMAN : The Honourable Mi nister . MR . MERCIE R : Mr .

Cha irman, there is a municip al contract there which we had taken some steps to alleviate las t year and have it still under consideration. MR . CHERNIACK : Out of this fund? - 872 -

Thursday , March 13 , 1980 MR . CHAIRM AN : The Honourable Member for St . Johns. MR . CHERNIACK : Thank you , Mr . Chairman . I'm sorry . $15 ,957 ,1 00, is there some all eviation to the municip al contract? Out of this MR. MER CIER : In the Town of Winnipeg Beach . MR . CHERN IAC K : Well, yes. MR . MER CIER : Ye s, there was a littl e , Mr. Chairman . The Town of Winnipeg Beach had a munici pal contract where they employed four members of the for ce . As the Member for St .

Johns will be well aware if he was on the counc il at Win nip eg Beach , there is a highly seasonal inf lux of people during the summer month s. During the winter month s the Town of Winnipeg Beach does not need four members of the RCMP, so what we agreed to last year was to absorb two of those people under the provincial police contract from October 1 to April 1 or May 1, to all eviate the costs to Winnipeg Bea ch . And in ad dit ion , if he will look at that

summary that I've handed out on Page 26, where he sees Municip al Police Grant , Town of Winnipeg Beach was included in that police grant system for approxim ately $13 ,0 00.00. MR . CHERNI ACK : Mr. Cha irman , I side tracked myself , I side tracked myself . MR . ME RC IER : The Member for St . Johns might even want to run for election again in the Town of Winnipeg Beach . MR. CHERNIAC K: I didn 't have to run then . I was pleaded with . Mr. Chai rman , I got off on that tangent because it is a resort area which ob viously has been treated di fferently . So let 's get back on track .

There are , I belie ve , munici pali ties which rece ive this - now I'll say - $1 5,2 - 79 ,10 0 being the RCMP contra ct , which get a larger contribution from the provinc ial government for police protection than do others , such as the urban municip ali ties. Is that a correct statement? MR. MERCIER : Mr . Chairm an , there 's an entirely di fferent level of service that a rural municip ality would rece ive free from a rural de tachment . It 's more of a response-to-call level of service than a daily patrol-type of service that you would rece ive in an urban centre . MR. CHERNIACK : Mr .

Chairman , I think we 'r e going to have get this thing settled more clearly . The patrol service the Minister refers to in an urban centre is not paid for by the Province of Mani toba. Is that corr ect? MR. MERC IER : Cer tain ly . MR . CHERNIACK : Corre ct? MR . MER CIER : Ri ght. MR. CHERNIACK : All right . Now , the City of Winnipeg residents do get some RCMP serv ice , which is paid for under this Resolution , I gather from what the Minister says . MR. MERCIER : Mr .

Chairman , the service that I firstly think of is some thing like the Criminal Fraud Squad which assist in inve stig atio ns and , as the Deputy reminds me, joint operations that might go on between the city force and the RCMP. MR . CHERNIACK : And that service is included in this contract we 'r e dealing with in this item? MR . MERCIER : Yes . - 873 -

Thursday , March 13 , 1980 MR. CHERNIACK : Thank you , Mr. Chairman . I'm sorry I do n't slow up for you. Then there is a certain amount in the contrac t, I assume , that says it deals with 593 staff man years , that it can be calculated - not to the penny but fairly closely - as to how much of this contract of $15 ,2 79 ,0 00 is used to provide serv ic es to the urban centres ; those which are receiving ad diti onal moneys under a grant which were not under a formula which we are not going to di scuss now because it comes under Urban and Municip al Affair s.

I am asking whether the Minister can give us approximate amounts to show the per capita cost to the Province of Manitoba of providing law enforcement services to diff erent classes of Man itoba ns , rela ting to whether they li ve in urban centres or rural or villag es , or whatever . MR. MERCIER : Mr . Chairman , I'm advised that we can probably get it. It may take some time to do. MR. CHERNIACK : Mr . Chairm an , there 's no real hurry because we'll be back here next year , and if we get the info rma tion in ample time , we 'll start under standing it.

But let me tell the Minister what I think we are finding out and see if he disag rees wi th that. I thin k that the province pays a larger amount per capita for a person who re sid es in a small town , or on a farm , or rural munici pal ity , than the people of the City of Winnipeg are getting from the provin ce . And I believe that the inf orm ati on which will come in due course , will prove my point . Now, does the Min ister di sagree with the point I'm making?

That there 's more money being spent per capi ta by the government of Manitoba in the service of law enforcement in the small er areas in Manitoba than in the largely settled urban areas which have their own police force? MR. MERC IER : Well , Mr. Chairman , if the member wan ts to pursue that line then I think we would have to perhaps look at the per capita expenditu res of the gover nment as a whole . MR. CHERNIACK : Especially for law enforcem ents . MR. MERCIE R : For every serv ice . Would the member want that kind of in forma tion? MR. CHERNIACK : Mr .

Chairman , we often cannot determine what information we will get . But I am asking about law en forcement , this item , which is ri ght on the point for us now . If he wants to provide extra neous and other and the more .elabo rated in forma tion , that 's fine , as Ministe r for Urban Affa irs he can do that. I'm asking the Attorney-General whether or not it is true to say that the Prov ince of Manito ba pays a la rger cost per capi ta for law enforcement for residents of other than urban areas than it does for residents of urban areas .

And I'm as suming that that 's the case , because al though the residents of the City of Winn i peg have a more extensive service in law enforcem ent , they pay for a very large porti on of that out of their own tax system, to their own police force s. And I' m suggesting to the Minister that it is apparent to me - and I'd like him to confirm or deny - that the Province of Manito ba is indeed paying more , and I do n't decry that. I just want the facts . MR. MERCIER : I wouldn •t admit to that at this stage witho ut looking into it , Mr .

Cha irman , because I think it would have to be looked at very very care fully. The Province of Manito ba , for example, through the RCMP would be very act ive in par ks. --( Interjection )- - In park s. MR . CHERNIAC K : St . Johns ' Park? MR. MERCIER : Parks . No t St . Johns ' Park , provincial parks . --( Interje ction )-- I know. You know , provincial park s. Now people from the city go to provincial parks ; people from outside the city go to provincial parks . The enforcement of The Highway Traffic Act in patroll ing , say , provincial trunk - 874 -

Thursday , March 13 , 1980 highways and the Trans- Canada Highway , while the money is spent outside the City of Winnipeg , is that a service just for rural people , or is it a service for everyone within the province including people from ••• --( Int erjecti on )- - Well , that 's ri ght , that 's what I'm wondering , what is the purpose of the whole exercise? It can be extended so far that you get involved in ridic ulous arguments . MR . CHERNIAC K : Well, it so happens that the previous governme nt , the en lightened progress ive New Democrati c Government also made this MR .

MERCIER : Under whom , the previous Premi er , you did n't agree wi th. MR . CHERNI ACK : Mr . Chairman , the Atto rney-General doesn 't even know what he 's talking about when he says I didn 't agree wi th him . Well , he knows I did not say that ; he 's trying to put words in my mouth ; and he can do it in my absence but he certainly can't get away with it in my presen ce . MR . MER CIER : I wouldn 't say it in your absen ce . MR . CHERNIAC K : MI".

Cha irman , the only I' m making is that it should be re cogn ized that the cos t of providing law enforcement in urban centres such as Winnipeg , such as Bran don , such as Thompson , is largely paid for by the local tax payer through their own police force . That's for law enforcement preventative policing wi thin their boundarie s. And as the Member for St . Bonif ace pointed out , people come in from outside and run afoul or requ ire the pro tection of poli ce , and wi thin , say , the City of Winn i peg, get it regardless of where they live.

But I wan t it understood that when the Attorney-Gene ral , wearing another hat , talks about all he 's doing for the City of Winnipeg , or all the Munic ip al Affa irs Department is doing for urban centre s, it should be recognized that there is spec ial cons ide ration being given to this item, whi ch we are now dealing wi th, for resi dents outside of the urban centre s. I think that that is something that should be admitted and then justi fied - and I said I do n't de cry it nor do I deny that it 's sensible - it's just that we ought to know . That 's all I'm saying . MR . CHAIRMAN : The Member for St.

Bo nif ace . MR . DESJAR DINS : Yes, MI". Chairman . I have a few questio ns. The contracts that we have wi th the RCMP police , isn 't it a fact that we 're not paying the full cost? I mean , you 'r e paying so much, you 'r e getting some financial ass istan ce . MR . CHAIRMAN : The Honourable Ministe r. MR . MERCIER : Right. MR. DESJAR DINS : That 's all . I knew that , but I'm just making a point .

In other wor ds , not only are they getting something from the province that the city isn't gettin g , but they 're also getting federal money that 's coming to Manito ba , which there 's very litt le of , if any , going to Winnipeg . Now I'd like to ask then , MI". Chairman , who is getting the supplement now? Is it only the City of Winnipeg that 's getting the supplement? 5, 000. MR. MER CIER : No , on that Municipal Affairs question , ci ties and towns over MR. DESJAR DINS : Okay , and I ask ••• MR. MERCIE R : Agains t 575 and under 5,0 00 , 375. MR . DESJAR DINS : Okay , they are getting the supplement .

And another ques tion that I --(I nt erjec tion )-- All ri ght , I did n't say from the provin ce , I said they were getting part of that supplement . MR . MERCI ER : You just said the supplement . - 875 -

Thursday , March 13 , 19 80 A MEMBER : They 'r e getting it out of their own mo ney . MR . DESJA RD IN S: Okay, they 're getting some of their own money . But earl ier , when I asked the Minister , the Mi nister stated that this money , the formula originally was to help pay for police pro tection in the City of Winnipeg . Now it 's block funding and they can do what they want with it, but that 's the way it was arrived at . And the Ministe r said earlier this afternoon · that a community of 500 - and I think the Minister said that there 'd be change in that , it'll be 75 0 • MR.

CHA IRMAN : Could I just ask the Member for St . Boniface to speak into the mike , they 'r e having a problem pi cking it up back here , and all other members We get sort of slop py and away from it and no one can recognize themselves . The Member for St. Bo nif ace . MR. DESJAR DINS : Then the police protection , the contra ct , in communities of less than 500 , and soon 750 or less, is paid entirely by the province , but those are no t necessarily muni cipali ties . They are part of a municip al ity .

Doesn 't that mu nici palit y , in certain case s, the municip ality that they belong to , re ceive that supplement also? The supplement is not paid to communities , it's paid to muni cip ali ties . MR. MER CIE R : Yes , municip ali ties . MR. DESJAR DINS : The answer then that the Minister gave me awh ile ago , Mr. Chai rman , that doesn 't mean much if he says the community doesn 't get the supple ment . But some of these communiti es , who are getting their police protection paid for belong to a munici pality who in effect could receive and do rece ive part of their money , that supplement . Right? MR .

MERCIE R : Yes. MR . DESJAR DINS : So the question is then , as the Member for St . John was saying , then it shows again that they are getting the whole thing paid for . And then the Mi nister still used a form ula , as Minister of Urban Affai rs , to make a dis tribut ion of this supplement , taking into consideration police prote ction , so he 's paying for it twice . And then they'r e getting some help from the federal government bes id es that , as I say , so I think my friend from St . Johns is ri ght . MR. CHAI RMAN : The Minister of Sport and Recreation . OON.

ROBERT (B ob ) BANMAN (L a Verendrye ): Well, Mr. Chairm an , just very briefly with regards to this subject , I thin k we all appreciate , and the Minister has pointed out several times the problems that some of the urban centres are faced with with excess policing costs , and problems that they have with regards to making sure that the staffing complement and everything is what RCM Police want to have in place , and the problems that places on the local taxpayer .

But I would just like to point out , one of the areas that I guess - and the Minister touched on it very briefly - that it becomes pretty hard to find out ex actly what the per capita cost in that area would be outside the city of Winnipeg is an area such as I have in mind , a particular riding 1 ike Falcon La ke, where you 've got a fairly large deta chment doing the hi ghway pa trol , whi ch really you can 't relate to the population that 's there . The population is one which builds up in the summertime and it's basically urbani tes that move into that ar ea , not the rural people, and use that.

The other example, which I think is a really striking one is the Headingley Detachment over here for the hi ghway pa tro l. Yo u' ve got a real buildup of - I forget how many , I think it's one of the large st detac hments in Manito ba. It really services the Tran s Cana da Highway and the trans ient traffic that goes through . So , I'd think I'd find it pretty hard to say that it's the rural people benefiting from that . I think it's Manito ba as a whole that does , and I would just say that , maybe in this partic ular instan ce , they 're protecting us from the - 87 6 -

Thursday , March 13 , 19tl0 urbanites that are coming into the rural are as , where very often the urbani tes like to say it 's the rural people that come and dist urb us . There are two sides to this st ory , and it becomes very diff icul t, Mr. Chairman , to , I think, come up with a per capita ratio on the thing . MR . DESJAR DINS : We ll , Mr . Chairman , what the Minister said is true , but he forgo t one point . He 's talking about it in his area . He 's saying that the popu lation is the re , the extra po lic e is only for them. But he forgets that they also pay taxes.

In some instan ce s, I dare say that they pay an awful lot more tax than services that are received from the mun icipality or the provincial governm ent . Rememb er that I had a cottage in Sandy Hook , and that's years ago , and I was there a month at the most a ye ar , and I paid over $150 tax es. MR . CHER NIAC K: You'd pay a lot more now. MR . DESJAR DINS : We ll , as I said , that 's years ago and that 's only for one month . So , Mr . Chairm an , that is a fact , and I think the Minister was right when he pointed out that this is far-reach ing .

If you 'r e going to start that , you 'v e got to bring in reven ue , and you 'v e got to bring in - how many times the people from the rural area wil l come into the city to use our faciliti es . So , I agree that 's it's prac tically imposs ible to find , but I think that we 'v e made a point ton ight to show that the Minister cannot say that the govern ment is being that over- generous with the City of Winnipeg . I think that they'v e mentioned that be fore , and we live in the provin ce , and I don 't thin k that we necessarily feel we want all the money that we pay in tax , we want it bac k from Winnipeg .

I don 't think Manitoba could exists . Bu t I think the Minister should look at the problems of Winnipeg also , and not say , "Well , all right , you 'r e gett ing your share ." MR . CHAIRM AN : 7. --pass . The Member for Fort Rouge . MRS. WESTBU RY : Ye s, I'm sorry , I wanted to speak on this but I was at the other commi ttee and I'm afraid I may be being repetiti ve . I'm sure you' ll tell me if I am. MR. CHAIRM AN : Law Enforcem en ts. MRS . WESTBURY : Ye s, I wanted to speak on Law Enforcemen t. Mr .

Chairman , I understand that the Attorney-G enera l, in speaking to - I think it was the Manitoba Urban Association - made a stat ement to the ef fect that he is prepared to grant extra funding to municip al iti es that have particular policing problems . Is that just what you 'v e just been talking about? --( Int erjecti on )- - Oh , except Winnipeg. Well, this was going to be my question . I see . MR . CHA IRMAN : The Honourable Minist er . MR. MERCIER : I don 't think the Memb er for St . Johns wants me to go through this again, bu t •• MRS. WESTBURY : No , all right .

I'm not going to ask you , I'l l ask you pr i vately perha ps . I have trouble divid ing myself be tween two comm itt ees. MR . MERCIER : We ll , Mr . Chairm an , just so that we don 't - I think we did cover that , and if the member would like to read Hansard from this evening • MRS . WESTBURY : Yes , I will . MR. MERCIER : And they will be ref erence there to discussion on a different method of redis tributin g increase in the Provi nci al- Municip al Tax Fund . I think that will deal with her conc ern. MRS . WESTBURY : I wanted to say one thing , if I may , that may not have been said .

I do feel that , be cause of the conditio ns that prevail in the city of Win ni peg, in parts of the city of Winnipeg, that when the provincial government is - 877 -

Thurs day , March 13, 1980 getting fundin g , I wish that they wou ld direct the funding towards the proble ms in some area , and particularly , if the government is going to make some money avail able for pol ic ing in the city , I wish that they would address it to an extension of the affi rmati ve ac tion program , so that the money would be spent in the areas which are in grea te st need . MR. CHAIRM AN : Appropriation 7. Law Enforcement--pa ss . The Member for Ste . Rose. MR. ADAM: Mr .

Chairm an , I'v e just been informed that when the Minister of Government Services spoke on the subject matter that I brought up , I had to leave the room, Mr. Chairm an , but I understand that he said that this governm ent , this Conservative government , had passed legislation forming the Manitoba Cattlemen Association that would look into the cattle rustl ing .

I want to now for the re co rd , say that one of the li tigants in this case , the guy who apparently had cat tle illeg ally in his pasture , is a member that the Minister of Agriculture ap pointed to the interim board of the Cattlemen Associati on, is now a vice -president of that association , and his name is Larry Clif ford . That is the man who is in volved , and acc ording to a ci vil court had cattle ille gally in his pasture for four year s, and he is now a high offici al . And further to that , Mr. Chairm an , he is also a very well -known Conservative in the Dauphin area. MR. CHA IRMAN : 7.- -pass .

Resolution resolved that there be granted to Her Maj esty a sum not exceeding $15 ,9 57 ,1 00 for Attorney-General Law Enforcement- -pass. Appropriation No . 8. , Public Trustee--p ass . The Member for Burrows . MR . BEN HANUSCHAK : One of the functio ns of the Public Trustee is to ad minister charitable or public trus ts . Does he in fact do that , or this is merely a power which he has but does not , in fact , exercise? MR. MERCIER : Mr . Chairm an , I'm not aware of any charitable trust that he admi niste rs. MR. HANUSCHAK : Public trusts , political

partie s. MR. CHAIRM AN: 8. (a ) --pas s; 8. (b) --pas s. Resolve that there be granted to Her Ma jest y a sum not exceeding $885 , 200 for Attor ney-General Public Trustee--p ass . Appropriation No .9. , Canada -Manitoba Legal Aid. 9. (a )- -pas s. The Member for Ste . Rose. MR.

ADAM: I don 't have too much to say about th is, except that I am get ting reports that since a fee has been le vied on people who come to use Lega l Aid , my understanding is that there are some now who are having di fficulty having re presentati on or legal counsel for them because of maybe only a nominal fee to some peop le , but to othe rs, perhaps a very high fee .

And I just want to make that pas sin g comment be fore that Estimate goes by , that there are reports coming to me that there are some people having dif ficulty now having access to Legal Aid be cause of the fact that there was a dete rrent fee , or a user fee , such as this gov ern ment likes to impose. MR. MERCIER : Just one point , Mr . Chairm an . I found that in 85 percent of the case s, the user fee has been waived because of the financial ci rcumstances of the applic an t. MR. CHAIR MAN : The Member for Wolseley . MR .

WILSON : Ye s, I ap plaud the user fee because that means the onus is then placed on the staff to look at each individual case and to make a dec isi on based on need . I think it acts as a • • • it reminds me of a sportsm an 's show you go to down where the travel brochures are free , and almost everybody loads up wi th them , and as soon as they leave and ge t home , they go into the waste paper basket . And I think that there has to be something to avoid people going continu ally to the Legal Aid offices as a matte r of a soci al trip downto wn and something to do . - 878 -

Thursday , March 13 , 19�0 I wanted to ask the Minister if he could comme nt on the number of cases because I don 't have the report in front of me . I have one report that indicated there were 13, 188 cases handled by Legal Aid . I wondered how many were handled in the last fiscal year . MR . MERCIER : The current year is last ••. ? MR. WIL SON : Well , whatever your last report is. MR . MERCIER : Mr . Chairman , it would appear in the fiscal 1978-79 a total of 9,6 87 ce rti ficates were issued . As of this March , there has been an 18 percent increase si nce then. MR.

WILSON : Again, I want to just say this is my own personal opinion , but when there was no deterrent fee, the caseload was wel l over 13 ,0 00. As soon as there becomes a user fee - which as you pointed out in 85 percent of the cases is waived if there are di re financial problems - what I'm saying is that because of the common knowledge that this government was going to have an increase in Legal Aid , would there be any parallel to the number of increase in cases as to the in cre ase in the Budget .

Again, mayb e that 's sl ightly facetio us , bu t from where I si t , our government takes over and the caselo ad drops from wel l over 13 ,O OO down to 9, 600 , and now it 's going to go back up by 20 percent . May I ask the Minister , of these 10 ,0 00 case s, how many are for ci vil cases ot her than di vor ce? MR . MERCIER : For ci vil cases other than domestic and divor ce , I believe you di vide it into three sec tions , I' m going by memory , and this would be for de fending people who haven 't paid for their autom obile or haven 't paid for their groceries and that type of thing . MR .

WILSON : While the Minister is looking that up, I wanted to talk about a st range phenomena - and I don 't want to take too much of the commi ttee 's time - but in Publi c Account s, I raised a conce rn, because on page 58, it 's got, Law Soc iety and solicito rs' trust funds , $1 .3 milli on , of which $2 57 ,478 acc ording to the shee t supplied by the Law Society , is a grant from the provincial govern ment . Now acc ording to a lette r I rece ived from the Ministe r of Finan ce , this money is ar rived at by interest from bank accounts of memb ers of the legal profession.

In many cases , this interest builds up because of the tardiness or slo wness of law yer s dealing with peoples estat es , money that through some widow whose husband may have died and who in the eyes of the lawyer may not be looking out for her next meal or whatev er , but at the same the citi zens of Manitoba are being deprived of the interest money which is now 17 percent , and on $100 ,000, that is quite a sub st antial amount of money , $17 ,0 00 .0 0.

And it would se em to me that there is some thing missing when this particular windfall falls into the revenue sec tion of the province and then through some agreement with the former governm ent , is laundered out to the tune of almost $3 00 ,0 00 a year as a grant , and then the balance of the money is then laundered into legal aid to further pay for an expanding court case load which only benefits one seg ment of the popu lation .

So I am saying that in the last fiscal year , $1 , 341 , 818 came to the province through the interes t rates of the ci tize ns of Manito ba, through diff erent financ ial instituti ons .

And while it is list ed as a grant , many memb ers of the legal profess ion say it is n't a grant - and I am going by memory now from the document I had a terrible getting hold of, nobody se emed to be able to supply me with one - it indicated that our government has now ex panded , because the fund is build ing at such a rate , has now expanded the terms of ref erence of this 75 percent , so that in addi tion to legal aid , it can now be used for the admi nist ration purposes of the Lakeview Square offices of the Law Society of Manitoba.

I don 't know whether it pays for furn ish ings and carpeting and luncheons or whate ver , but it would seem to me that it 's a pretty envious position for a profess ional organ ization to be in, that the chartered accountants don't have that privileg e , the engineers don 't have that pri vilege , the nurses don 't have that privilege and the teachers don 't have that privilege , of being able to have money come back to them that the gov ernment holds for them , to be taken out in the form of a grant . I know , and amaz ingly - I do n't want to sound like somebody that is envio us , but they do - 879 -

Thursday , March 13, 1980 represe nt , on a wage sca le , so me of the top wage earner s in the province along wi th the medical prof ession , and I would think they are the last people that need a grant from the taxpayer s' money , be cause this is the consolidated fund . This money is called a special opera ting trust fund , but to me , acc ording to Hansard , this is the consolidated fund , so that means the money belongs to the taxpay er s.

Now if it is truly for an educational program , this money should be under the Department of Education , and the Minister of Education should be asked if he is not conc erned that something that 's of an educational nature , is no t handled by hi s departm ent . I re fer to an ar ticle here by Jus tice Roy Matas , whic h says that the University of Manit oba law faculty is in se rious financial troubl e, and it would seem if they are in serious financial trou ble , then they should also be app rize d of some of these mone ys .

If there is a shortfall at the university and the re 's a squee ze , they are members of the legal prof ess ion , they should also be able to enjoy part of this $1 .3 mill ion . So I would think , and I would like to ask the Minist er , in his budget here , he talks about legal aid being $3.6 mill ion for the coming year , does that include the moneys that are taken from the special trus t or is this in addition? What I am trying to ar rive at is, there was an

article that appeared in the paper that the membe rs of the legal profession claim that 15 percent of their legal fees were held back , and there was a sto ry that said they were out of pocket some $2 00,0 00.- 00. Now, what I am interested in is, do we get a $750 ,0 00 grant from the federal governm ent? Then this $3 .6 mill ion . And how much of this $1 .3 mill ion is going to go tow ards legal aid ? Are we going to use it all up in one ye ar , or do we only use half of it? Who det ermines what portion of this money be ing held in the Law Society and sol icito rs' trust funds is going to be used for legal aid?

And what of the citi zens out there? Is there any so rt of immoral behaviou r on the part of governm ents that take interest money belonging to widows and est ates and set tlements on inj ury claims and set tlements of di vorce cases that are put into bank accounts by memb ers of the Law Socie ty , and the interest goes into a special ac count for their us e? I think it des erves some look by Mr. Zipri ck and his st aff .

I would like to know if the moneys that they claim under the new terms of ref er ence that are going to take some of this $1 .3 mill ion for legal aid , would that be in addition to the $3. 6 mill ion that appears under Resolution No . 23? MR. MERCIE R : Mr . Cha irman , first of all let me say that the total amount of interest that the province receives from trus t accounts of lawyers is more of a floating interest that 's earned on trust accounts of lawyers .

Whenever a lawyer has a speci fic amount of money in trust for a widow or for a se tt leme nt , or even a land transa ct ion , for a ce rtain number of days , that money is usually invested in a speci fic trus t account for the benefit of the cli ent. And in fact now with many financial ins titu tions offering daily interest rat es , I think we 'r e findi ng, or certainly will find in the future that , and particularly banks are compe lle d to provide interest on a daily basis, the amount of the fund earned from interest on lawyers accounts is going to diminish si gnif ican tly .

And again , I rep eat , when ever a signif icant amount of money is held by a lawyer in trust for a clie nt , that money is gene rally invested by the lawyer in an interest bearing account which can be done now on a dail y basis throug h trust account s.

Now with respect to the divisi on , the Legal Aid Services Society Act requires • • • I am su re that 's the Act , but it may be an amendment to The Law Society Act , pardon me , The Law Society Act , requires the money that is earned from inter est on lawyers' trust accounts rece ived by the provincial governmen t, is dis tributed 25 percent for legal education of the Law Society and 75 percent to Legal Aid . The 25 percent that goes to the Law Society does in fact cover legal education for articli ng stud ents , and the Member for Wolseley said in fact , the money should be used for educa tion of student s.

Well, it is used in the legal education program run by the Law Society during the articl ing program of stude nts . The law Society have to submit to my budg et . We generally pay 50 percent of the moneys as early as we can . The final 50 percent of the moneys are not paid out until we receive an audited financial state ment . The 75 percent that goes to Legal Aid is included within this $3 .6 mill ion appropriation . They don't get the 75 percent of the in tere st . It 's not over and above this amou nt ; it's included wi thin this amount of money . - 880 -

Thursday , March 13 , 1980 MR. CHAIRM AN : 9. (a). The Member for Wolsel ey . MR . WILSON : MR. CHAIRM AN : MR . MER CIER : Memb er for Wolseley pro ximate ly 4, 536. than domestic cases . Except that I. . The Honourable Ministe r . Sorry , if I could just answer one other question that the earlie r asked . In 197 8-79, the total civil cases were ap Appro xima telsy 500 of those cases were for civil cases other I think that was the question . MR. WILSON : We ll , I'l l get ba ck to that in a moment .

What I wanted to assure the Ministe r that I have in front of me , se veral copies of the st atement of trust for ending the year March 31, 1979 . The balance that was in the trust ac count was $513 ,2 50 .94. For the fiscal year they had interest of $1 ,086 ,68 6.46, so I would thin k that , while the Minister has been told by the Law Society that moneys be longing to the citi zens of Manito ba are inves ted for their benef it , under what phenomena then would we arrive at over a mill ion doll ars collected , if only people and small bu sines smen go to a law firm?

I' m trying to envision if the law yer s are truly investing the money for the estate of a widow or a person who has been crip pled for life in an auto accident , if they 'r e truly investing it for his benefit , how would the Law Society arrive at a million dol lars ' windf all without having no t have some firms invest the money from othe r sour ces? I am trying to en visi on a di fferent example of other than a person . Maybe the Minister could help me in this regard as to what type of area would a law firm have to turn money over to the sol icitor 's account that appears on page 58 of the Public Accounts?

MR. MERC IE R: What is the question? In which ci rcumstances would interest be earned that goes to the consolida ted fund and does not go to the cli ent? MR . WILSON : Yes, ye s. MR. MERC IER : Mr .

Chairm an , if for example a lawyer had , let 's say $5 ,0 00 as a figure , whi ch he is required to hold for three days , and to invest it on a daily basis he has to pay Pi nk Lady $3 .5 0 or $4 .5 0 to take the money down to a trust company to put into a daily interest bearing account and then pay ano ther $3. 50 or $4.0 0 to come back with the money after the three days is over , it may very well be that the amount of interest earned is no t greater than the amount of the charges to take the money down to dep osit it and return it.

Those are the kinds of ci rcumstances where the lawyer would leave the money in his regular gen eral trust accou nt. There would be int erest assigne d to that money by the bank , be cause gen erally speaking a lawyer will find that he will have , de pending on the amount of his busine ss , dep ending a great deal on the si ze of the prac tice , and what kind of pract ice , he might only have an average of $5 ,OOO in the bank in a trust account during the course of a month .

In those circumstances the excess of the money would be put in a speci al trust ac count in the bank , and the interest in those cases goe s to the consolidated fund of the provin ce . Bu t it's si tuations where there can be no benefit to the clie nt , because the money is held for suc h a short period of time , but on an average the lawyer has that am ount of money , an amount say of $5 ,0 00 in the bank , during the course of a mon th . MR. CHAIRMAN : The Member for Wols eley . MR.

WILSON : Wel l, except that I would think a bette r business practice might be, rat her than call it a grant , be cause this agreement was put together , I belie ve , on April lst by the former Attorney-General Al Mackl ing , that he agreed to pay 25 perce nt, formula 25 -75, that I would rather them put it in as an expense to the government for collecti ng the interest from members of their socie ty . Be cause I would suggest to you , Mr .

Minis ter , would the Law Society , as required by that former Act , turn over a milli on , some odd thousa nd dollars in a fiscal year to the taxpa yers of Manitoba if they wer en 't getting a 25 percent rem uneration? I think it would be highly unl ikely that that event would take place , and I would - 881 -

Thursday , March 13 , 1980 rather see it as an expens e for administeri ng and collec ting the money from their mem be rs , rather than plunking all the mone y into the consolidated fund which be longs to the taxpayers of Manitoba and then having us give them a grant , be cause how do I answer to the poor working guy in Wolseley that we are giving a grant to the richest members of socie ty ? I have a very very tough time explaining that to my people on Evanson and Arl ington . I will get back speci fically to Legal Aid , so we can get on to the other Items .

I wanted to make the comment that I am very very concerned about what is a growing sort of bush fire , and we are heading down the wrong road in allo wing Legal Aid ce rti ficat es for people in ci vil cases in which they are def end ing them se lves agains t the just obli gat ion , against the financial institutes and membe r s of the credit indus try .

Now I shouldn 't be here speaking for the chartered banks and the credit unions , but I feel that if they won 't take the tim e , I will on their be half, to say , we all know that as soon as a statement of de fence is filed , the banks will not proce ed , and when they write of f that debt , that debt is handl ed and paid for by the honest people that pay their bi lls.

I am suggesting that the Legal Aid is becoming , rat her than a support system , a system of a Christi an type of honesty that is be coming a vehicle ass isti ng dis honesty , bec ause the banks and the cre dit unions , once a def ence is filed , run for cover and pass that bad debt onto the honest people of the province . In other words , the banks don 't lose money , the credit unions don 't lose money, they turn around and to the Member for Burro ws , Ea tons used to at one time make no less than 25 to 20 repossess ions a mon th .

They no longer make them , be cause it is cheaper for them to write off the 3 percent of the ir gross sales as bad debts and pass it on to the honest people who pay their bills than it is to go around chasing these deadbeats to try to colle ct . I am saying that the tragedy is, that the honest consu mer is paying in a bush-fire area for the dishonest con sumer . If we are going to have more vehicles against di shonesty we have got to st op outfits like Legal Aid encroaching into the civil cases where they are de fending people against financial ins titutio ns who have a just obligation .

I think the Administrat or and the staff peopl e at Legal Aid , if they knew the intent of the gove rnme nt , would not give a certif icate if the guy , for instance - he could ask the gentle man when he came in , you are here to get Legal Aid , you are here be cause you have no money to pay for your car , and you are ni ne months in arrea rs , and the bank has the nerve to ask you to give your car back .

Don't you think if you can 't af ford this Oldsmob ile 88 that ma ybe you should drive some thing small er or somet hing that it is not an 1980 , maybe a 1967 or a 1972 , and maybe act as a debt consultant ra ther than giving the guy a certi ficate , and that deadbe at , be cause he gets away with it , or the person who maybe let 's take he is actually truly financ ially up against it , because no t all people are dishone st , some people actu ally overpurchase things . They have a lack of control of buying things , and these people need debt consu lt ing , they nee d help .

We have OPD, we have the· bank ruptcy laws , we don 't need to give them a battery of lawyers to turn around and avoid their just obligatio ns. I think that 500 ce rti ficates is maybe 300 too many in my opinion . I just leave that for the reco rd . MR. DEP UTY CHA IRMAN : The Member for The Pas . MR . McBRYDE: Yes , Mr. Chairper son , my question to the Minist er is around the staff ing . I wonder if the Minister could give the number of staff and the locat ions of st aff. And, Mr.

Chairm an , I don •t know if he has it in his books there , not only the staff last year and the loc ation , but the st aff the year be fore , if he has that information availab le . MR. MERCIE R : The gen eral location , Mr. Cha irman , would be Winnipeg 58, Brandon 5, Daup hin 6, the north 5. Included in the estim ates are provisions for two more in Thompson . MR . McBRYDE: Mr. Chairm an , I am assuming the fir st figures he gave us are the same for last year , that is, it is an extension of last year into this year , ex cep t for the two additional ones . MR. MERCIE R : Yes, ye s. - 882 -

Thursday , March 13 , 1980 MR. McBRY DE: I wond er , Mr. Minist er , if the five nort hern , you could break that down further - is it just The Pas and Thompson that you have offic es? MR. MER CIER : Five in The Pas . We have provis ion for two in Thomps on . MR. McBRYDE : Yes, Mr. Chairpers on , the five persons in The Pa s, that would not be all legal st aff then . How many legal st aff would that be? MR. MERCIE R : Two lawyers , a student , and two se cretarial st aff , MR. McBRY DE: So at th is time , two lawyers and a student lawyer would be se rvic ing all of no rthern Manitoba at this time .

Are those pos it ions all full at this time ? MR . MER CIER : Plus the private bar . MR. McBRY DE: Mr. Chairman , the reason I raise this - and I am pleased that there is a change in st aff , that they are going to add some st aff at The Pas .

The last si x month s is the fir st time I, as an MLA, have had people come to me with problems , and when I called Legal Aid they were , you know , very co-ope rative and tried to be very helpful , but I go t the impressi on that they just couldn 't keep up wi th the parti cul ar you know, that is the first time si nce the y have been there that I have co nstit uents come in with a problem , and so I was concerned with the fact the se rvice was less than it had been be fore , that they weren 't able to provide the service that they were se t up to provide . MR. MERCIE R: Mr.

Cha irman , I should also make the point that we do fly people in to di fferent communities for courts on occasion . MR. McBRYDE : Yes, Mr. Chairman. I wonder if the Ministe r would care to comment if there has been a problem with mee ting the need that exists in northern Mani toba , and specif ic ally in The Pas. Has there been • MR. MERC IER : The problem , Mr. Chairman , that we have had over recent months has been in Thomp son , not in The Pas. A few lawyers have moved from Thomp son and the burden of handling all the certi ficates has fallen on fewer lawyers in Thom pson.

That is why we are considering est abl ishing an office in Thom pson . MR. McBRY DE: Yes , Mr. Chairm an . I suppose that si nce there has been a reduc tion in the numb er of se rvices in the no rth , I am always very suspi cious and concer ned that this doesn 't take place . I am assu ming that the issuing of cer tific at es , and I am so rry I don 't unders tand the detail of the proces s, the actual is suing of certi ficates is done by a lawyer . MR. MERC IER : Yes, Mr. Chairm an . MR .

McBRY DE: So that makes se nse to me in terms of the proble ms that people are having , because it was so rt of , ce rti ficates had been issued , and then the lawyer had lef t the area and there was a problem of getting it transferred to ano ther lawyer , etc . So I am assu ming that 's one area of the overload , is in terms of just the administrative handling of certi ficates and si gning those cer tificates or getting a lawyer in private practice to fulfull that •• MR. MERC IER : Mr.

Chairm an , the Area Director for the north who has final ap proval of the ce rti ficat es is located in Tho mpson , so there shouldn 't be any di fficulty in proving th e transfer of the certific ate . MR. McBRY DE : Did the Minister mean Thompson or The Pas ? MR . MER CIER : The Pas , pardon me . MR. McBRYD E: You see , if there are two lawyer s that can issue - 883 -

Thursday , March 13 , 1980 certi ficat es , and there is the court

partie s, though I am assu ming those lawyers travel to Thompson now because the y have to do that to - it makes se nse that that is one of the bottlenec ks, the issuing and the ass igning of ce rtif icates and ju st so rt of the pro cessing of applica tions for Legal Aid up no rth . MR. MERCIER : Mr. Chairm an , we are not aware of any complaints , but we will enqu ire into it wi th the Area Directo r in The Pas and see if he has had some prob lems in that regard . MR.

McBRY DE : I would just like to reiterate that the st aff, when I have talked to them , have been very co-ope rat ive , and I am not complaining about them , but I got the impre ssi on that they were jus t falling be hind and couldn •t quite kee p up , and that was the impression I got from deal ing with two comp laints from constitu ents . MR. CHA IRMAN : 9.( b) --pass . Resolution No . 23 - Resolved that there be granted to Her Maj est y a sum not exceeding $3 ,6 35 ,3 00 for the Atto rne y-Gen eral , Canada-Manitoba Legal Aid--p as s. Resolution No . lO(a )- -pass the Member for Wolse ley. MR.

WILSON : I wanted to just ask the Ministe r , I had occas ion to use these facil ities and I mu st say I was extrem ely impresse d and I wondere d, it does se em like an awful lot of money , but woul dn •t the Ministe r ad vise the taxpayers that most of th is money is re covered through charg es , be cause I was relieved of - in sea rching one particula r , my first expe rience in searching - I was relie ved of $6 .50 fast er than the compu ter could operate .

And I wondered if the Minister could indicate , on the revenue si de , that this new facili ty - relat ively new fac il ity on the 15t h floor - is operating reason ably ef ficiently and part of the cos t is being re covered throug h the revenue sid e .

What I am saying , I am very happy because of the concerns I expressed earl ier in the budg et , that if we could educate the consuming public that when they buy an aut omobile from a use d-car lot , or not so much that , but they buy it out of the newspape r , that if they could at tend the 15t h floor of the Woodsworth Building and us e the services of th is very worthw hile facil ity , the st aff are more than co- ope rat ive and more than happy when an ordinary citi ze n comes in there af ter dea l ing with the professional debt collec tors all day long, and memb er s of dif ferent law firms around the city .

They are more than will ing to help . I just rather got the indi cat ion , when I was up there , it was more than ef ficient . And , of cours e, I don't know the st art -up cost , but I' m quite impressed and I wanted to congratulate the Minist er on his ever-improving facil ity and won de red if he could give some indicati on as , are part of the $426 ,O OO in Oth.er Ex penditures recovered through revenu es? MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : The Honourable Ministe r . MR . MERCIER : Ye s, Mr. Chairman . The program is se lf- supporting . MR. DEPUTY CHA IRMAN : 10. (a )-- pass; (b)-- pass.

Resolution No . 24 : Resolved that there be granted to Her Maj est y a sum not exceeding $699 ,3 00 for the Attorne y-Genera l. Per sonal Property Security Registry--p ass . Now we revert back , members of the committ ee , to Resolution No . 15 . l.( a)- -pass . The Member for St . Vital . MR. D. JAMES WALDI NG: Mr.

Chairm an , I'd like to say a few words and ask a few ques tions under the Ministe r 's Salary , on the topic of the Manito ba Liquor Control Commissi on , which I understand is one of the Minister 's responsi bil ities , and si nce there is no expenditu re throug h the de partment , that the only place mem bers can speak on this sub ject is under the Minist er 's Salary .

We had words last year on the topic of whe ther the Ministe r was allo wed to have ad visors or member s of hi s st aff present for his salary , and we gave him the en cou ragement at that time to indeed to have whomsoeve r he wis hed to hel p him , - 884 -

Thursday , March 13 , 1980 pr ef erably an official from the Manitoba Liquor Control Commissi on . Can the Min iste r ad vise us , first off , whe ther there is anyone here present from the Commissi on who will be able to help hi m with any more technical questions? MR. DEP UTY CHAIRMAN : The Honourable Ministe r. MR . MER CIER : Mr. Chairm an , le t me take this opportunity to introduce to memb ers , Mr. Will iam Emerson , the new Gen eral Manager of the Commis si on . Also with him are Mr. Arch Jackso n and Mr. Herb Davies , the comp troller s.

Hope fully , we will be able to answer the usual incisi ve questi ons from the Member for St . Vital . MR. WALDING : Thank you , Mr. Chairm an . I had to look twice at the Minis ter to see whether he was being facetio us when he said that , and I will give him the benefit of the doubt . Mr . Chairm an , can I fir st not e with reg ret from the Annual Report of the Com miss ion , the untimely dea th of the Cha irman of the Commiss ion , Mr. Teillet , last year . We understand that he lost hi s life in a motor accident after being and se rving wi th the Commiss ion for many long years .

I' m su re that all members of the com mittee would join me in expressing sympa thy and condolences to the family. Mr. Cha irman , there are a couple of items that were brought up last year wi th the Minister . We didn 't press him too much on it, and these two matter s were fairly ne w at that time . But , si nce they 've now been in ope ration for a year , perhaps the Minister can advise the commi ttee what the experience has been .

Firstly in the area of live mu sici ans , there was a change made ei the r to the Act or under the regulations , to permit taped mus ic , and there were considerable con ce rns raised at the time that this would have a se rious eff ect on the entertain ment business in Manitoba and the livel ihood of mus icians who derived both incom e and expe rience and training , by playing in li censed premis es .

Can the Minister now give a report to the commi ttee as to what st udies and in vestiga tions have been carried out in this re gard , and whe ther he has any inform ation whether the opportu nities for live mus icians has decl ined , whether he has any indica tion that some of the 10 ,0 00 -odd Manito bans who leave ev ery year , have been musi cians seek ing employment in other prov inces? MR. MERC IE R : Mr. Chairm an , I don't have any exact figures on how many switches there were to taped music from live . But there was a change in policy of the Commiss ion last fall, prior to Mr.

Teillet 's untimely dea th , in which ho tels were allowed to have a cover charge that enabled the many hotels to jus ti fy the expense of providing live music . And I unders tand that live bands are doing fair ly well in the city now. MR. WALDING : I wonder if it would be possi ble for the Minist er to request a re port from the Commis si on , as to if they have any indication of what the eff ect has been on the li ve mus ic entertainers in the province - particularly in the city , because I be lie ve that 's where I think the eff ect was .

I also raised with the Minis ter last year the matter of low alcohol beer taken in concert with the former policy of moder ation . Prio r to the Estimates last year - and I don 't know the exact date - there was a change in the pricing pol icy whereby low alcohol bee r was sold at the same rate as the full 5 percent beer . The matter that I raised with the Minister las t year was whether this was ·a movement away from the moderation policy of at tempting to encou rage people to drink more of the low alcohol bee r by means of a lower price .

The Minister gave as one rea son , at least , the fact that that lower price could have been justi fied as an introductory measure when these low alcohol be ers were fir st promoted on the market , and that that requ irement was now over , in that they were now est ablish ed . Can the Minist er now rep ort to us on what has happened to the sales of low al cohol bee r as a percentage of the total bee r sales over a reasonable period of time , perhaps 1979 over 1978 , or some thing of that magn itude ?

Have we in fact seen low alcohol beers maintain the same percen tage of the market that they did at the time the price was raised ? - 885 -

Thursday , March 13 , 1980 MR. MERCIER : Mr. Chairm an , the answer to that question is yes , they have maintained app roxim a tely the same percen tage of the marke t. MR. WALDING : Can the Minister advise approxim ately what the percentag e share of the market is? MR . MERCIER : About 5 percent . MR . WALD ING : I have a number of notes here , Mr. Chairman , that are not in any particular ord er . One further po in t: One of the provinc e' s newspapers did a survey se veral months ago as to the measures of liquor that were being se rved in licen sed establi shments in the city .

They named the es tabl ishme nts ; they gave actual figures ; there was some discuss ion back and forth , as I reca ll , from the Commiss ion that dif ferent st andards were be ing used as whe ther it was an imperial ounce or an Ameri can ounce , and that there were certain toleran ces . Some of the figur es , as I reca ll , showed that one es tabli shmen t was up to at le ast 10 percent below the expected one ounce . I must say , on the othe r side , that anothe r es tabli shment was shown to be over the measure by a similar amount .

There was also a further report that one employee of one of these est abli sh ments was fired subsequent to this inves tigat ion . I would now like to ask the Minist er if he could comment on , fir st of all , the review itse lf , what measures the Commi ssi on took to check into this . Can they con firm that one person lost his or her job? And did the Commissi on look into that matte r to see whe ther it was properly done ? MR. MER CIER : Well , Mr. Chairman , the report in the newspaper was subject to some criticism , in that they used the wrong conversion factor , I think , in their initial artic le.

It was also subjec t to some inaccuracies because of the numb er of times the alco hol was transferred from one container to another , and the possi bi li ty of los ing a part of the liquid , or evapor ation . But in any event , si nce then a new measuring device has been ap proved by the Commi ssi on for us e, there being some further insp ec tions . With respect to the fact that one employee was fired , that was reported in the ne wspap er , and I don 't wan t to comment any further on that or what the Member for St . Vital is expect ing from me in that regard . MR. WALDI NG: Two ques tions arise from that .

As far as the employee be ing fired , or losing his or her job - and I don 't recall which it

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Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	31-4-16b
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	31st 4th hansardpdf 16b.pdf
Language	en
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