Manitoba Hansard — 29 April 1976 (Sitting 93, 30th Legislature, 3rd Session)

30-3-93

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

April 29, 1976 THE LEGISLATNE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 8 p.m. Thursday, April 29, 1976 COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY - DEPARTMENT OF EDUCATION 3053 MR. CHAIRMAN: I refer members to Page 19 of their Estimates Book. Resolution 46(

b) General Administration:

(1) Salaries. The Honourable Minister of Education. MR. HANUSCHAK: Yes, Mr. Chairman. You may recall that at the time that the committee rose on Tuesday evening there were a number of questions put or really there was one major question and there were several parts to it dealing with the establish ment of Vocational Education Training Centres at the high school level in the Province of Manitoba. There was some debate back and forth across the House related to that point. I think that before we proceed any farther that some issues should be clarified.

The program for the provision of occupational training facilities both at the post secondary level and the secondary level was commenced originally by the Government of Canada under The Technical and Vocational Assistance Act of 1961. Then it continued under The Adult Occupational Training Act of 1967.

Under this program the provinces were allocated $800 per capita, the population being persons 15 to 19 years of age as at the 1961 census, with the Government of Canada reimbursing the provinces 50 percent or 75 percent of eligible costs because this varied as time progressed and the province's share was $56.6 million. Of $45 million expenditures the province received 75 percent recovery or $33.9 million and of an additional $45 million expenditures it received a 50 percent recovery or $22.6 million for a total of - the precise figure is $56,646 million.

The funds were to be used to reimburse the province for - and perhaps it was on this point where there was some confusion on the part of the opposition when the Honourable Member for Riel spoke because I t hink that he did speak of both. He placed both com munity colleges and regional vocational high schools in the same basket because these funds were to be used to reimburse the province for community colleges construction, alterations, renovations and equipment as well as vocational composite high school con struction and equipment of the type such as we have in Selkirk, Steinbach, Brandon, St.

James, River East, Dauphin and Swan River and high schools' annual equipment and sup plies and capital costs re the establishment of vocational courses. From 1961 to 1969, Mr. Chairman, the total recoveries from the Government of Canada were $23 million, $23 million for that eight-year period. It was during this period that at the - and I'm sure, Mr. Chairman, that you'd be the first to call me to order if I were to speak of anything other than the Education Department Estimates at this time. When we come to post-secondary Estimates that comes under another appropriation in another department.

During that eight-year period, Mr. Chairman, there was only one school, one vocational school built in the Province of Manitoba, only one. That was the R. B. Russell School in the Winnipeg School Division. Furthermore, Mr. Chairman, that was not something that was done at the initiative of the government, but the initiative did come from the Winnipeg School Division and not from the government of the day.

On June 5th of 1970 the Minister of Finance for the Government of Canada pro posed at the Federal-Provincial Conference of Ministers of Finance and Provincial Trea surer s, an accelerated phase-out of the remaining funds over a two-year period commenc ing in 1970 to 1971. The estimated balance remaining on March 31st, 1971 was to have been paid in two installments, one for 1970-71 and the other for 1971-72 and this proposal was agreed to. Under the revised procedure the provinces were not obligated to expend additional moneys over the phase-out balance that was still remaining.

The shareable costs would be 100 percent recoverable. The accelerated payments were intended to relieve the cash management problems confronting the provinces and to assist in their plannin g of facilities for occupational facilities. It was originally intended that the funds be used over four years ending March 31st, 1975, but the termination date had been extended for all provinces of Canada until March 31st, 1981. On March 5th of 1971 the Minister of Manpower and Immigration advised that no further claims for payment would be accepted by the Government of Canada.

He enclosed a cheque for $13 million as the first installment under the phase -out agreement and the outstanding balance as at March 31st, 1971 was later confirmed to be at $25, 731,879. A

3054 April 29, 1976 SUPPLY - EDUCATION (MR. HANUSCHAK cont'd) •••• • few months later on August 6th of the same year a cheque for the balance, for the diff erence between the figure that I've last mentioned and the $13 million, namely, $12,731,879 was received from the Government of Canada. I want to stress the point, Mr.

Chairman, that these were funds that were spe cifically earmarked for the purpose of the expansion and construction of vocational-educatior facilities and not for any other purpose as the Honourable Member for Riel would have wanted the people to believe according to his speech on Tuesday night when he spoke of some $20-odd million that found their way into the Provincial Treasury which the province was at liberty to spend in any way it wished. That is not true. These funds were spe cifically earmarked for this purpose and that is the manner in which they were spent.

Recoveries to March 5th, 1971 included five regional vocational high schools, but as the expenditures were initially made by the school divisions and then reimbursed by the province, so this covered a period commencing in '69 and ending in March '71. Then the Honourable Member for Riel went on to speak that there are still funds remaining, unexpended funds, which the Government of the Province of Manitoba may spend in any manner that it chooses. Well, Mr.

Chairman, as of four weeks ago, March 31st, 1975, there was something in the order of $1.4 million remaining in this fund, and every cent of this $1.4 million, Mr. Chairman, was earmarked for the final payments at Stein bach, Brandon, additions to Red River Community College, the multi-campus at Altona, St. Jean, and Dominion City and Morris, and the Dental course equipment at Tee Voc. So, that's what those funds are earmarked for, and whatever balance may remain as of today, it's for those specific purposes, these and others that may be related specifically to vocational education in the Province of Manitoba.

Now, there was considerable debate on Tuesday night as to when the construction projects of the regional vocational high schools in the Province of Manitoba commenced. Well, Mr. Chairman, I did a check on that, and I have the dates, I have the dates when Ministerial approval was given, and as had been the practice in the days of the previous government, or as I think would have been the practice, because I really don't know what would have been the practice then, but this certainly --(Interjection)-- No, I don't know because he did not, he did not do what I'm about to say. That's why I don't know.

I can only be guided by, you know, looking at the dates of approval. You know, in reading back, look at those dates in conjunction with the formula, with the formula that was recom· mended through the government of the day, and honourable members may recall on two or three occasions in debates in this House, in Committee and in the House during this ses sion and in the previous ones, and they had a - remember the formula, the six point formula rating constituencies and assigning a certain value to them.

Remember the solid opposition seats traditionally held by opposition where voting patterns are stable and there is no chance that government action that could shift the balance. That was worth one point. Two points: seats the solid government. Seats traditionally held by the govern ment and where voting patterns are stable and predictable. That was worth two points. Three points: volatile opposition. Seats held by the opposition where changing population patterns, age groupings, or other factors, make prediction of voting patterns difficult. That was three points. Four points: volatile government.

Seats held by the government where changing population patterns age groupings, or other factors make prediction of voting patterns difficult. Five points: marginal opposition. Seats held by the opposition but with a slim margin and with some stability in voting patterns. And six points, this, Mr. Chairman, this was - as the Honourable Member for Riel, I believe the Speaker, we first named him as the Leader of the Party. Now, I want to impress that upon you, Mr.

Chairman, that he was named by the Speaker, and you know the rules, I'm sure, better than I do1 that there's nothing in the rules indicating for what length of time a Speaker names anyone of a party in a predicament such as the opposition finds itself in as leader. The Speaker may change the naming of leaders from day to day. I don't know whom the Speaker will oo.:me as leader tomorrow or the day after, n -

April 29, 1976 3055 SUPPLY - EDUCATION (MR. HANUSCHAK cont'd) ••••• and the honourable member !mows that. It's regrettable that the leader whom his party has chosen does not have a seat in the House, but that is their problem. And six points: marginal govermnent, seats held by the government but with a slim margin and with some stability in voting patterns. And then, you !mow, because- I'm going through this very carefully, Mr. Chairman because this relates very closely and indicates the rationale and the pattern which a se quence of events occurs later on - then you attach a value to various programs.

Minus 1, where program effort has a negative impact on the political scene; zero, where program effort has negligible effect; plus 1, where program effort has a favourable impact; plus 2, where program effort is exceptionally important. So, you have, Mr. Chairman, (

a) from a range from 6 times minus 1, from minus 6 to 6 times plus 2, plus 12, an 18 point scale. And then let us see what happens. Then let us see what happens insofar as the - this was done, oh, this was done prior, this government did not do it, because this was done prior to 1969. This was done in 1968 when unfortunately during that period of time those who are now in the opposition occupied the government seats, that was a Conservative Govermnent. --(Interjections)-- So, • • • MR. CHAffiMAN: Order please. MR.

HANUSCHAK: ••• applying this, I notice, well there's one vocational secondary school that was approved in principle by the Minister, and I - you !mow, I should remind you, Mr. Chairman, that it was also suggested in these guidelines for government to follow that it considers that this proposal considers the impact of programs in the context of the short-range political situation. Its time horizon extends to the next general election, and to the extent that program effort cannot shift, or cannot appear to shift that rapidly to the election following.

In other words --(Interjection)-- No this is not a bombshell because this has been said in the House before but it's rather interesting how when one looks at the actual application of this formula that was devised for them and how it fits in with the modus operandi of the government of the day, Mr.

Chairman, to the extent that the program effort cannot shift because you !mow after all the Minister gives his approval and the architect goes to work of the drawing boards to draw plans for a school and well, you !mow, that can continue for some time before any change is to be come about or cannot appear to shift, you know that rapidly to the election following, and that's the prime range of their concern.

You remember the 6 points assigned to rating constituencies from 1 to 6, rating programs from minus 1 to plus 2, so here we have Lord Selkirk serving three constituencies in the maillo One within which it's located, and two others. And the three constituencies were: Selkirk - I'm sorry that the P.A. system isn't working well in this House. I was of the impression that the sound is carrying, and if the honourable member is finding difficulty in hearing, I hope Mr. Chairman, I hope, I would suggest to you, Mr.

Chairman, that you, if the honourable member's microphone is not working that this be reported to the Speaker and I'm sure Mr. Speaker will see to it that the Honourable Member for Riel' s microphone be repaired. Well, located in one constituency, and the constituency at that time, you may re call, Mr. Chairman, was a marginal opposition seat.

That's 5 points, 5 for a marginal opposition because the seat held by the opposition, but with a slim margin, the margin wasn't all that great so 5 points; and vocational training in Selkirk at that time no doubt this would be a matter of concern and appeal to the people, 2 points. Five times 2 equals 10. Then, of course, it was designed to serve, it was designed to serve more than Selkirk. So to the north, Mr. Chairman, was Gimli constituency. And Gimli constituency at that time was a marginal govermnent, 6 points. Six times 2 equals 12. Six times 2 equals 12.

And to the west there was the Rockwood Iverville constituency. Rockwood Iverville constituency, another government seat. And without a calculator. So, the three constit uencies, and you know to make a fair comparison so you add up the 3, divide by 3, so you get an 11,3 rating for Lord Selkirk constituency. Let's look up some others. Dauphin-ochre constituency, Dauphin constituency, a

3056 April 29, 1976 SUPPLY - EDUCATION (MR. HANUSCHAK cont'd) ••••• government seat. Next to it an opposition seat, a marginal opposition. Look at the sum total of the two, it gives you an average point rating of 11. Point three points less. Then the next one, Mr. Chairman, is St. James . That's St. James School Divi sion. At that time, two ridings, two ridings, one a government seat and one an opposition seat. Marginal opposition. Six times 2. Five times 2, an average of 11. Then, ah, there 1 s Swan V alley. There 1 s Swan V alley constituency. And Swan Valley, a marginal government.

But I would suspect, I would suspect, Mr. Chairman, something must have happened here in the case of Swan Valley. Perhaps --(Interjections)- Well, no, but it doesn't appear to be rated as high. It would appear that the popularity of a program such as this must have rated at about 1. 66 somewhere between 1 and 2 a bit over the half-way mark. About 1. 66 or thereabouts. So 6 times that gives you 10. Gives you a rating of 10. And then, well, we come to River East.

And River East, well there was an op position seat known as Kildonan, and this was prior to '69 you will recall, prior to the redistribution, so that's about 10 points but at the time that anyone was anywhere near maldng a decision with respect to River East, another constituency did come into being, namely Rossmere. Anyway, taking the average of the two gives you an 8 point rating. And you know what, Mr. Chairman, the approval of the schools, of the vocational schools was exactly in that order. It was exactly in that order. In fact the ministerial approval ••• You know, Mr.

Chairman, you know the - how is it described again? Time • •• and next year an election and to the extent that program effort cannot shift or c annot ap pear to shift that rapidly to the election following. The ministerial approvals, which is an approval in principle, an approval in principle which, Mr.

Chairman, you know as well as I do is not an absolute commitment to the building of a school because plans can change You know there's a parcel of land at the corner of Portage and Main and I'm sure that all sorts of plans and drawings were drawn, you know, for structures to go up on it, but nothing has happ ened to this day. So, the ministerial approval, not a dollar spent, not a dollar committed, merely ministerial approval which give the approval, the permission, the authority to proceed with a set of drawings, to proceed with a set of drawings. And when did all this occur?

Well the first one, the one that ranked top priority according to the formula that was presented to the government of the day, Lord Selkirk - all right the ministerial approval was grantee to it on August 19th, 1968, the date of the ministerial approval. Then the one that came second - it was in the order which I read them out - Dauphin-Ochre, Dauphin-Ochre came second, practically· on the eve of, you know, of the election last year. Yes, on February 18th, 1969.

You know, after this legislation on the federal offer of assistance had been in existence for some time - wait until the last mil11lte to make the announcements that here we're going to assist you in the building of vocational high schools. Then, that was No. 2. Then No. 3, ah, No. 3, there were two approvals given on the same day. One was for Swan Valley, the other was for St. James. And these two approvals, Mr. Chairman, were given on June 3rd, 1969, on June 3rd, 1969. I'm sure that you may recall, Mr. Chairman, that that was after the election was called on June 3rd. I would not suggest for one moment, Mr.

Chairman, that this is any form of vote buying but I think that there are members in this House who have, you know, made the suggestion that this is a form of vote buying. One June 3rd, 1969, two and a half weeks, three weeks rather, before an election, saying to Swan Val ley: By gum, there's the member, the candidate in Swan Valley, he appears to be in a bit of trouble, let's give him a school. St. James? Well, with the redistril::ntion we're not quite sure what's going to happen in Sturgeon Creek and, well let's give him a school. So, on June 3rd the approval for that one was given. Then I would suspect, Mr.

Chairman, that this would have been about the day when the Minister of Education was cleaning out his desk, on July 4th, on July 4tl: of 1969 some nine days after the election, you know, when the results were quite obvious of what the people of the province had said. . , d h

Ap ril 29, 1976 3057 SUPPLY - EDUCATION A MEMBER: They were still hanging on there • • • MR. HANUSCHAK: That is true. They were still hanging on for another eleven days following that. Approval • • • well, but something happened there, something happen .. ed. You see on or about that time, Mr. Chairman, it became quite apparent to the op position that ••• well there's one constituency, namely, Rossmere - no one really lmew at that point in tin1e what was going to happen. No one could read the minds of judges of our courts. Suppose the election would have been controverted and a by-election to be called.

A MEMBER: 1967. MR. HANUSCHAK: 1969 • • • A MEMBER: No, it was in '73. MR. HAN USCHAK: In '73? Well all right. Just a minute. There were a couple that were in trouble then too. In '69 there were a few in St. Boniface and others, well there were problems there --(Interjection)-- Yes in '69. Well the thing to do is to move into a school division within the Premier's riding and tell the people, "Look, we're on the way out but don't forget who gave you a regional vocational high school." So on July 4th, as I sat cleaning out his desk, there comes a school in that pattern, in that pattern. Now there were others.

I don't lmow why - perhaps the Honourable Member for Brandon could explain why according to this formula - Brandon only rates about five points. Brandon only rates about five points; Hanover seems to rate only about two points which came into being at a later point in time. --(Interjection)-- Portage la Prairie? That doesn't even appear on the list. They didn't give any thought to Portage la Prairie at that time. So that, Mr. Chairman, is the manner in which regional vocational high schools were approved and on that basis. Mr.

Chairman, just before I sit down, we're on General Administration and I do hope that in dealing with this item in our Estimates, and I hope that honourable members will keep that point in mind for the remainder of the Estimates. Apparently last night at the $35 a plate dinner that 1,400 members from the opposite side of the House attended, at which they were warned, Mr. Chairman, that there is disaster ahead of them. MR. ENNS: Only 1,400 could get in, 500 were left outside. MR. HANUSCHAK: They were told there is disaster ahead of them because ac cording to the - now I'm merely quoting from the Free Press, Mr.

Chairman - because they were told "there is disaster ahead if NDP not ousted, Lyon tells 1, 400 strong PC dinner." Now he is not talking to the people of Manitoba, he's talking to his 1, 400 sup porters. He's telling them, "Look fellows, if we don't get the NDP out the next time round, we're finished. we·, the Conservatives are finished." That's what he was saying. There it is in the Press. I would hope that during the debate, Mr. Chairman, that one point would be made clearo Apparently it was said that we have instituted harebrained experiments in education that don't even teach children to read.

I would like honourable members to identify those experiments, those projects that they would scrap. I think that they should because the Tribune says that Lyon trains P.C. guns on Premier Schreyer. Now that's damn poor marksmanship if they can't even aim and indicate to us which program it is that they're aiming at. I want to know which program it is that they're aiming at. MR. CHAffiMAN : The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. CRAIK: Mr. Chairman, I want to thank the Minister for two things.

The first is that he has now put to rest the argument that was carried on last night or the night before whenever it was that there was some argument about who established the regional schools. He has of course put to rest that completely. He's now confirmed by putting his research staff to work that the schools, four out of six or five out of six, whatever the munber were, were of course done by the previous government. That's munber one. --(Interjection)-- Well, Mr. Speaker, before we get too carried away on that point I would remind the Minister that --(Interjection)-- MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please. Order. MR.

CRAIK: Mr. Chairman, I would remind the Minister that the majority of the money for the total program came from the Federal Government before he gets too

3058 April 29, 1976 SUPPLY - EDUCATION (MR. CRAIK cont'd) • • • • • wound up. Of course jf you go beyond that all of the money comes from the people not from the person that happens to be sitting on the bench over there that does the okaying of the appropriations. So I thank the Minister for first of all, finally putting to rest the debate on who started the schools. It is now very clear, he's cleared that up. Secondly, I want to thank him for now putting to rest any argument about who has the most convoluted logic of any Cabinet Minister across the way.

His presentation of arithmetic on the determination of the location of the schools is one of the most stupid performances I've ever seen by a Minister of the Crown. Mr. Chairman, that has to be one of the most stupid performances. But it also frightens you to think that these people are probably going around the country spreading that kind of poison. If you think for one minute A MEMBER: Snake oil. MR. CRAIK: If you think for one minute that the location of those schools was based on some sort of stupid calculation that was outlined here, it just shows you b.ow inadequate you are for the position you're in.

Now I don't know jf the Minister did it himself of jf some of his newer staff are involved in there but I'll tell you one thing: there were people involved in the Department of Education over the years, there were people that were involved in the Department of Education over the years whose principles were very much higher than what you're attributing to them. There was a lot more logic went into the development of those schools than this half-assed formula that you've dug out of some place to try and prove in a moment of desperation -and I will look at you when I'm say ing it.

I have a tendency when I'm serious about something to look at somebody in the eye not at the Speaker back behind here. I don't have to convince the Member for Brandor West of what I'm saying. I'm telling you right now that jf this government is applying that kind of convoluted thinking, to go so far as to accuse somebody of locating those schools on the basis of that junk and garbage that you presented here, it's a discredit not only to the person who said it, namely the Minister in charge, it's a discredit to the Department. It's a discredit to those people like Scott Bateman, Bob Belden ••• A MEMBER: Name them.

MR. CRAIK: ••• and I'll go down the line, Wes Lorimer, all those people in the line of fire who are some of the most respected educators in this province who were very much involved in the background work which led to the decision on those schools. I'll go one step further. The school that was located at River East, Mr. Speaker, the location of the school in River East which is the location of Mr. Speaker's location was put there as a change. It was originally located on Nairn, intersection of Nairn and 59. The government had a reservation or assembly of land there and that was to have served Transcona, St.

Bonfface, St. Vital, River East or Rossmere, whatever it happens to fall into. It was decided as a matter of policy that the vocational schools would not be schools that would be set out to draw in only those who were going to take vocational education alone. It was decided that vocational education, a conscious decision as a matteJ of policy should be an integral part of the public school system. So the decision that was faced was where would the school that was going to be located at the corner of 59 and Nairn, whereabouts it should go. Now I suppose myself being the Member for St.

Vital at the time, jf I wanted to p lay politics, I could have said, ''We move the school to St. Vital." That would have been to the south. It would have been a very easy decision. It would have been a very easy decision, Mr. Chairman. It was decided that when you looked at the centre of gravity of the area served, that it was best located in the East Kildonan area, which is the member for, the present Speaker of the House. And as strictly a matter of hard cold logic it was put there. Well, Mr.

Chairman it was put there not on entirely my recommendation, it was· put there on the good advice of the peopl� I have mentioned. I can name you some more. It was put there because it very logically once it was decided that it was not going to be exclusively a vocational school, but a comprehansive school, then the logic was, put it where it services the area most central ly, where the most students are, where it provides the greatest good and so on. So it was put in River East. n r e

April 29, 1976 3059 SUPPLY - EDUCATION (MR. CRAIK cont'

d) Well with that background, Mr. Chairman, can you imagine anything so patently stupid as for this Minister to stand up here and suggest that the people that were involved in that decision somehow used this political formula that he's bandying around here. That is just unthinkable. It spells out really, it spells out really how sick, how really sick the heads of this De partment of Education have now degenerated to. That's really what this is the greatest demonstration of, and are you in trouble as a government, if you're going to be guided in your Cabinet decisions by this kind of garbage coming to you. MR.

CHAIRMAN: Resolution 46(b)(1) - The Honourable Member for Brandon West. MR. McGILL: Mr. Chairman, I'd like to refer the Minister to a publication of his department called "Education - Manitoba." I wonder if the funds for this publication were included in the appropriation under this item last year. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Education. The Honourable Member for Brandon West. MR. McGILL: I wonder if the Minister could tell us, how much money was ex- pended for the publication of "Education Manitoba" in the fiscal year just completed? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Education. MR.

HANUSCHAK: $20,000, Mr. Chairman. MR. McGILL: Mr. Chairman, I wonder then, if the Minister can indicate whether or not the publication of this particular - well I guess you could call it a magazine or whatever it's called - if the publication has been terminated, and if so, for what reason. MR. HANUSCHAK: It has not been terminated, Mr. Chairman. MR. McGILL: Mr. Chairman, I'd like to refer the Minister to Volume ll, No. 1 of this magazine. There's an editorial in the magazine enti tled, "The Last Enemy," and I think I'd like to read into the record --(Interjection)-- It's called "The Last Enemy, " Mr. Chairman.

I'd like to read into the record just two or three concluding paragraphs of this editorial, and then ask the Minister some questions concerning it. And it goes as follows: "But the last enemy to be conquered in society and globally is that hoary-headed monster "political discrimination" . If more things are wrought by prayer than this world dreams of, then it is equally true that in this last century more blood has been spilled and more people have been dislocated because of differing and opposing views of how society should be governed than for any other reason.

Our inhumanity to each other, individually and collectively, continues because politics has become the very basis of survival. "The toll of atrocities committed in the name of freedom continues to mount. Espousing liberation, progress and equal opportunity, we dislodge by almost any means those who oppress. And those who oppress are those who disagree. The policical mental ity is an unenlightened mentality . It polarizes groups and individuals whose differences in many instances are quite superficial and unimportant.

It is the political mentality, us against them that compiles an enemy list that banishes writers and artists, that turns an individual against his own people. "Political discrimination is rampant in Manitoba. It is hardly possible at any level of government or in any organization that wields power and influence in this province to reveal one's political identity . To do so in these times is still to risk discrimination and possible dislocation. It is the last enemy because it is the most indestr uctable. It is the monument we build over and over again in memory of man's inhumanity to man.

Our time cries for leaders to begin and carry forward a movement to create an environ ment at which the disclosure of one's political preference will not diminish one's stature as a lmman being. "Of religion, race and sex we have come to the point where we can say, a man is a man for all that. If only we could say that of political persuasion. Until we can, equality and equal opportunity will persist in alluding us." Mr.

Chairman, that's an interesting editorial and I went back to look at the sort of guidelines for "Education Manitoba", and it stated the free expression of opinion would be the policy of the paper. That's what the editor said in October 1974. He

3060 April 29, 1976 SUPPLY- EDUCATION (MR. McGILL cont'd) • • • • • said, for example, "Education Manitoba" will provide a forum for debate of the many issues that confront educators and the people who are con cerned about the education of their children. And "Back Talk" was a section, will offer a chance for you to set us or anyone else straight to praise or to criticize. So, Mr. Chairman, I wonder because I an1 told, and I would like the Mini ster to confirm this, that when this issue came out that this editorial was withdrawn and replaced in a number of the issues that were sent out to schools and elsewhere.

And I would say that this is a form of censorship inconsistent with the announced purposes of the document, "Education Manitoba" wherein the people who contributed were offered a chance to set us or anyone else straight, to praise or to criticize. My question then, Mr. Chairman, is why have two of the first three editors of this magazine already disappeared? Was it the change of direction and editorial policy? And was it the Minister's personal decision to censor the editorial in this Volun1e II, No. 1 which went out? And did it in fact go out in a number of issues without this editorial being included? MR.

HANUSCHAK: repeat the third question. third question. Yes, Mr. Chairman. May I ask the honourable member to I was just in the process of getting a pen and I did miss the MR. McGILL: Well I think the third part of the question was, did the publication in fact go out with a censored version in which this editorial was removed? MR. HANUSCHAK: Mr. Chairman, in answer to the first part of the honourable member's question, why have the first two of the first three disappeared? I presume he means resigned. I think that that question could be best answered by those who resigned, why they resigned.

Has there been a change in policy? Nu there's not been a change in policy. There hasn't been a change in policy at all. The publication "Education Manitoba" has an Editorial Board and the material appearing within the magazine is examined by the EditOrial Board prior to going to publication, because we receive numerous articles and we cannot publish all at any given time that they are received. So therefore a decision has to be made how they're spaced out and what is of interest, or of greatest interest to teachers at any given point in time in a school year.

And that has been the practice and that still is the practice. And was this the Minister's decision to issue a publication with a censored version? There was no censored version of "Education Manitoba" published at any time. All issues of "Education Manitoba" that went out, went out with the ap proval of the Editorial Board, of the publication. MR. McGILL: Mr. Chairn1an, I'd like the Minister just to enlarge on that final answer. Did he say that some copies of the magazine went out without the approval of the Editorial Board, and some then were issued with the approval? Is that the explanation that he made? MR.

HANUSCHAK: No, Mr. Chairman, I did not say that. MR. McGILL: Well then I ask the Minister again. Did all copies which were published and distributed have the same editorial, the one from which I read a few para graphs? MR. HANUSCHAK: I said, Mr. Chairman, that the issues of "Education Manitoba' that were sent out to the schools are those with the approval of the Editorial Board. MR. McGILL: Mr. Chairman, did those which went to the schools contain' this editorial entitled "The Last Enemy. " MR. HANUSCHAK: No, Mr. Chairman. MR. McGILL: Well then I take it, Mr.

Chairman, that the censorship which was applied here was the decision of the Editorial Board and not of the Minister. MR. HA NUSCHAK: Mr. Chairman, there's no more censorship of "Education Manitoba" than there is censorship of any publication anywhere in the free world. Than there is censorship of the Winnipeg Free Press or of the Winnipeg Tribune, or of any other publication, Mr. Chairman. --(Interjection)-- MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please. Order please. The Honourable Member for Brandon West. MR. McGILL: I really don't want to divert the subject matter but the Minister

April 29, 1976 3061 SUPPLY - EDUCATION (MR. McGILL cont'd ) ••••• has mentioned the Winnipeg Free Press. I'm not aware that the Winnipeg Free Press goes to certain parts of the province with one editorial and to another part with another editorial. I think there's a certain consistency in the editorial page, and I'm wondering why there is an inconsistency in the editorial page of this maga- zine.

It is also interesting to note that the masthead of "Education Manitoba" Volume IT, No. 1" contains the names of the Honourable Minister of Education, the Editorial Board, the editor, and then the editor welcomes contributions. And Volume li, No. 1 was the one containing "The Last Enemy." ''Volume IT, No. 2," the masthead says, "The official publication of the Department of Education, and published under the authority of the Honourable Ben Hanuschak, the Editorial Board." One change - there's no line for editor.

The name of the editor for Volume IT, No. 2, the next issue to the one which we've just been reading from has been deleted. I wonder, Mr. Chairman, if the Minister could explain, whether for the second issue of Volume IT there was no editor appointed. MR. HANUSCHAK: Mr. Chairman, the answer is self-evident. There was no editor appointed at that point in time. MR. McGILL: Yes. I wonder, Mr. Chairman, if the Minister would like to ex plain why this particular editorial was considered to be unsuitable for school children and presumably suitable for normal readers, but it was not sent out to the schools.

Is the Minister imposing a certain form of censorship of the reading material of the students in the schools in a magazine such as this that was intended to be a free expression of opinion, and that whether the opinions agreed with or diff ered from those of the Department of Education nevertheless they would be carried. So I really would like the Minister to ex plain why this action was taken in respect to this particular editorial. MR. HANUSCHAK: Mr. Chairman, those are the honourable member's words and not mine, that something contained within "Education Manitoba" was not suitable for school children.

I never said that; at no time. And I would suggest to the honourable member that I don't think that it's entirely within the rules of this House to attempt to put words in somebody else's mouth. I never said that. And the honourable member well knows it. MR. McGILL: Mr. Chairman, I was hoping the Minister would say something to explain the reason for not sending the editorial to the schools. I have not been able to put words into his mouth because I don't know the reason for this not being sent out to the schools. MR. HANUSCHAK: Mr.

Chairman, for the second time during the debate of my Estimates I must express my regret that the honourable member has such a short memocy. I did state to the honourable member within a matter of no more than three or four or five minutes ago that the material appearing published within "Education Manitoba" has to be subject to the approval of the Editorial Board and it is quite true, it is quite true that it is stated within the publication that comment from teachers is invited and free expression of opinion of course. But I'm sure that you would appreciate the fact, Mr.

Chairman, as other honourable members I hope would, that there is a diff erence between the articles which are solicited, which are invited, the expressions of opinion by guest writers and so forth, and an

article appearing within a publication which expresses the policy of the publisher. And the publisher of "Education Manitoba" is the Government of the Province of Manitoba. MR. CHAIRMAN: 46(b)(1) - The Honourable Member for Brandon West. MR. McGILL: Mr.

Chairman, I now wish to refer to one of the early exchanges we had in this item in which I pointed out the apparent inconsistency between the Minister's statement of the long-term goals for education and educational policy in the Province of Manitoba, and the comments made by the Deputy Minister to an in-service meeting of teachers in Brandon when he was presented with a list of written questions I believe. I understood his comments to be that there were no long-term goals followed by the depart ment. Mr.

Chairman, I don't particularly like the kind of scenario we have here where a Deputy Minister' has to sit in silence while statements which he is alleged to have made are discussed in the House. I think that's a slightly unfair situation and I don't particularly

3062 April 29, 1976 SUPPLY - EDUCATION (MR. McGILL cont'd) ••••• enjoy it. But I think the real heart of this problem in education may be very close to this subject, and I think it's one that we simply cannot avoid. And too, I feel that if the Deputy Minister in his own judgment thinks it correct and proper to make public announcements on educational policy, then I think he has to suf fer or accept the critical comments and discussion and debate on those announcements in this House. But I think, Mr.

Chairman, that there is some basic diff erence in approach bet ween the Minister of Education and the way we must interpret the observations publicly made by the Deputy Minister in respect to the long-term educational goals of the depart ment.

And I don't need to read again what was said by the Minister of Education as recently as - I guess it was Monday evening of this week when he restated: "I have stated my government's educational goals often in this Legislature, but I feel that they require continuous repetition as they provide a context for the long-range direction of my depart ment." And he goes on to list them. Mr. Chairman, I have alleged that the Deputy Minister says there are no long range goals in the department.

The Deputy Minister through the Minister has denied that he made such a statement, and since I wasn't present at the time I accept his denial of that statement in Brandon. And it is only in reviewing this general situation that I come to another quotation, or at least another observation made by the Deputy Minister, which again seems to make it pretty evident that there is an inconsistency in the approach of the Minister and the Deputy. I'm just quoting from an

article in a newspaper by Marjorie Ea rl, "A Visit With Dr. Orlikow" And Marjory Earl mentions a munber of observations made in this review. And she makes this point: "But he lacks conviction and he's hard tounderstand. Probably because he admits, quite fran kly, that he isn't sure where public education is going in this province. Or indeed where it ought to go. But he admits quite frankly that he isn't sure where public education is going in this province, or indeed where it ought to go." Mr.

Chairman, this seems to be a complete denial of the position which has been stated in this House by the Minister of Education. He.'s not in any doubt about where it should be going, he's expressed quite clearly for the record, the long-term and long range policies. Mr. Chairman, if those who are not sure where public education is going in this province, or indeed where it ought to go, are in charge of education in this prov ince, what hope have we got?

If this isn't a denial that there are any long-term plans by the Deputy Minister I just don't understand English, because if he has said quite frankly that he doesn't know where it ought to go, then he can't have any long-term goals. So, Mr. Chairman maybe this is where we ought to stop for a minute and con sider the heart of the problem in education in Manitoba today,. and let's see if there is any way in which there can be some clear-cut combined statement of the goals in education by the Minister and his Deputy. MR. HANUSC HAK: Mr.

Chairman, I certainly cannot answer for a newspaper reporter, as she herself had admitted of her inability to communicate with Dr. Orlikow for whatever reason that the!t'e may have been)for whatever def iciencies she may have or whatever. That I do not know. And I cannot answer for that. Nor can I speak in re sponse to a newspaper story of that kind. But I want to indicate to you, Mr.

Chairman, that with Marjorie Earl's deficien cies and drawbacks, as she herself admits to what she had translated into those words were comments of the following kind, when it was said to her by my deputy, that the future is uncertain. The future is uncertain, the future needs are uncertain. What with the energy crises, international tension, inflation, all of which do have a bearing on our education programo And that is what contributes to making it diff icult to plan an education program for the future. And I would agree with him that it is difficult.

We do have certain goals, aims and objectives that we hope to reach. Whether we will succeed in reaching them I cannot give anyone absolute assurance that we will. Nor can anyone else in this House or anyone else in this world, or anyone else having any control over what ever goes on in this world. So it was within that context that that type of statement was made.

April 29, 1976 3063 SUPPLY - EDUCATION MR. McGILL: Mr. Chairman, there wasn't any suggestion that these goals were about to be achieved or met, the important thing was that we had goals, and you say we have long-term goals, and the Deputy Minister is saying quite frankly that he doesn't lmow where education is going. Now I want to lmow what policy we are to believe, what statements we are to believe. Either you lmow as a department where you're going or you don't lmow. Let's get straight on that right away. MR. HANUSCHAK: Mr.

Chairman, yes I will attempt to get the Honourable Member from Brandon West straight on that right away. The goals we have, the problems we are aware of, and we are attempting to reach the goals that we have set for ourselves, facing the problems that we are confronted with, which are those listed less than two minutes ago for the benefit of the Honourable Member for Fort Garry who was speaking from his seat. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. ENNS: Mr.

Chairman, it hasn't been my privilege to listen to all debates that have been going on with respect to the Estimates of the Department of Education, but on the particular matter raised by the Member from Brandon West, I have a comment. And that is a comment that I make partly as a result of some background experience as at one time having the responsibility that the Minister has of speaking for a government and representing the government.

It's not our choice - I think the Honourable Member from Brandon West tried to make that point - it's not our choice, not particularly our choosing to create this kind of a discussion that brings forward statements and a personage of the Deputy Minister in this light. But, Mr. Chairman, we have been left little choice.

It's of the Deputy Minister of Education's choosing to have chosen that high profile that he has set for himself in feeling free to move about this province, whether it's in Brandon or elsewhere, and deliver or relieve himself of public statements on public policy and where education ought to go, and where it shouldn't go, or how unsure we are of where it is going.

I just want to not leave this moment pass without underlining the points made by the Member from Brandon West, that is, that under our concept of government we look to our ministers to provide us with the kind of policy direction, of policy statements as to where education is going. We generally expect - at least I certainly I did when I was Minister, Mr. Chairman - expect my chief administrators to carry out that policy, and not to be roaming around the province questioning it, or in fact offering divergent opinions about it. Mr.

Chairman, we would be negligent in our responsibility as members of the opposition, if we don't pay some attention, pay some heed to what senior people in the Department of Education are saying as they meet with the public in Manitoba. And that's the point that's being raised. Mr.

Chairman, I just simply want to underline the point, that it is not the opposition that has chosen to single out the particular role that is being played by this Deputy Minister, the high profile that he has chosen to carve out for him self in the matter in the field of Education in a public way, it is the manner and way in which they have chosen to operate and run the Department of Education in Manitoba, with the Minister spending most of his time with idle talk of political formulas in defense of his Estimates, and the Deputy Minister in fact roaming around the province giving very little hope for direction in terms of where education policy is headed for.

So, Mr. Chairman, I just wan ted to underline that particular point made by the Member for Brandon West. MR. HANUSCHAK: Mr. Chairman, if it's the impression of the Honourable Mem oor for Lakeside that some of my staff are assuming a high profile, well he's entitled to form whatever conclusions, or arrive at whatever conclusions he wishes, of whatever it is that he wishes to, or whatever comes to his attention and wishes to form a conclusion on. I want to draw to your attention, Mr.

Chairman, that my Deputy Minister's and my staff's day-to-day activities are one thing, what a newspaper somewhere at some time chooses to report, is another. I have no control over what the newspaper in Brandon chases to report, or what a newspaper elsewhere chases to report. Going back to the Brandon incident) the major - in fact those are about the only issues of discussion between him and the Brandon School Division at that particular meeting and those two items were: 1. Service to the field from the Department of Education; and

3064 April 29, 1976 SUPPLY- EDUCATION (MR. HANUSCHAK cont'd) • • • • • secondly, the particular concerns that the Brandon School Division had about special needs within their school system and their physical fitness program. Those were the main items of, in fact, the sole items of discussion at that point in time.

I would also like to draw to the attention of the honourable member that, yes, my Deputy Minister and my staff does meet with school division boards, does meet with the executive officer of the Association of School Trustees1 of school business officials1 of school superintenden ts, the Manitoba Teacher's Society, Home and School Associations, and others, My Deputy Minister himself has met with approximately half within the seven or eight months or so that he's been in that capacity in my department, he's met with approximate ly half of the school division boards in the Province of Manitoba.

Now, if somewhere a long the way some news reporter interprets whatever discussion may have occurred and the mann er in which he had interpreted it, and reported it, I certainly do not hold myself responsible for it, no more than I'm sure the Honourable Member for Brandon West would hold himself responsible for what the Brandon Sun may report upon any comment that he may make or any other member may hold himself responsible for any comment that a news paper may make on reporting any statement made by him. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Brandon West. MR. McGILL: Mr.

Chairman, just before we leave this item. When I brought up an apparent conflict in the position of the Minister and the Deputy with respect to statements made in Brandon, this was denied by the Deputy Minister and I think I accepted that. Now I have quoted from a visit and an interview with Marjorie Earl with the Deputy Minister, and she says that he admits quite frankly that he isn't sure where public edu cation is going in the province, or indeed where it or;.ght to go. Is the Deputy Minister denying that he ;made that statement? MR. HANUSCHAK: Mr.

Chairman, I did state very clearly in what context that statement was made to the honourable member. He does have my sympathies. I would suggest to him that he await until Hansard is published recording tonight's debate and there in he will be able to re-read, and re-read as many times as he would have to to under stand my statement. MR. McGILL: Mr. Chairman, I'm going to await with great interest the Hansard that will cover the answers of tl:e Minister.

But I do want, before we leave this item, to again comment on the discussion we had with the results being achieved from this sort of progressive unstructured school approach that is now being promoted by the department, and the results obtained, and basics in more traditional forms of classroom. And we did deal with some of the results obtained from Winnipeg School Division No. 1 and compared them with some years ago, and we noted that there had been a real decline in the ability. MR . CHAIRMAN: Order please.

I think I drew to the Honourable Members attention the other night that it is under 2. that we make comparisons and evaluations and make remarks to that. Would the Honourable Member please confine his remarks to General Administration - Salaries, and the headings therein. The Honourable Member for Brandon West. MR. McGILL: Mr. Chairman, I simply had some additional information which would go with that which we have already accepted in this • • • MR.

CHAIRMAN: Order please, I think the honourable member agreed the other night when I drew it to his attention that he would confine his remarks to the General Administration and Salaries therein, and I think this is where he should contain his re marks, and if he's going to persist then I'm going to have to rule him out of order, and ask him to cease and desist. --(Interjection)-- Order please. MR. McGILL: I'm prepared to wait for the next appropriation and this will be coming up I would assume in a day or two and we will present it then. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MR.

LLOYD .AXWORTHY (Fort Rouge): Well Mr. Chairman, I just had a com ment to make about some of the previous discussion that we had. I think that the point tha; was being raised about the responsibility or the lack of it of the senior officials of the• department to allow their musings to become public I think is om.e that I must confess I s . - t

April 29, 1976 3065 SUPPLY - EDUCATION (MR. AXWORTHY cont'd) ••••• have found at times refreshing. I think that if there has been any one problem that I've seen really in education it' s been the lack of discussion in this province, that we have kind of had a buttoned down approach to it,where it was treat ed oftentimes as being a very tight little ship that was really being driven by a group of technicians without any attempt to open up for examination and appraisal in a somewhat open forum some of the concerns that we should have.

I think in particular at a time when education is subject to controversy I don't think there is any one sort of established formula way that we should teach children, and there's no question that there is some real con1licts in our province about the style and format of education. I guess in terms of my own political philosophy believe the best way you resolve some of tho se conflicts is through somewhat more open debate.

It's been one of my regrets in fact that there has not been and that the Minister himself has not lived up to his responsibilities for opening that de bate, and perhaps the evasion of that responsibility has thrown it upon other shoulders.

But it does come to a point that I have become concerned about, and that is that as the issue of education itself becomes issues of real conflict, no longer a matter of administration, pure administration, or management, or technical proficiency but becomes one that seriously divides one on the form and style of education, it leaves exposed in man y respects the educators them selves.

And the one thing that has concerned me, and I want to raise this issue with the Minister, ha s been the appearing frequency of dismis sals and forced resignations of senior educational staff in school divisions arouil.d this province, not one but several.

I spent some time reading the Public Schools Act about how that problem should be dealt with, and while there is protection for the teacher in the classroom against that kind of imposition in terms of an arbitration and a hearing and the right of protection, there is no such protection for senior administrators - who in fact are also educators, they're not managers, they are also educators with a philosophy and style. Now I am not saying that the school board itself does not have the right to choose, but it would seem to me, Mr.

Chairman, that that right to choose should be based upon some explanation publicly as to the reasons why , so that the voters of that school board would at least know upon what basis these dismi ssals that took place in Gimli, the vice principal I believe, there is one in the rural areas, a recent one in Winnipeg, all the se kinds of actions being taken with no explanation, no public disclosure, no responsibility to say it was based either upon personnel reasons or pedagogical reasons or educational reasons , just out you go.

It seems to me it does something of a disservice, and the im plication of it is this, it may in fact work towards the intimida tion, subtle intimidation of educators because they're going to be afraid for their jobs, and that if they find themselves at a point where they are not able to air those disputes or have their differences discussed in an open way, then that would be a severe disservice to the cause of education in this province. One of the failures, as I go through the Publice Schools Act in the administra tion department side, is there really is no protection other than for the teacher itself.

The only power that could be exercised I suppose is

Section 318 where the Minister has powers of enquiries into any matter affecting schools. Well that's a fairly drastic step. It would seem to me, Mr. Chairman, that when the question was posed to the Minister three or four weeks back about one of these incidents, an air of unconcern was expressed - at least that was the impression I received.

I don't think it is something that should go without concern because I think it will have an impact and effect upon education in this province if as we move into an era when there is some pretty fundamental disagree ments - about the style and approach and principles of education between one school of thought or one philosophy versus another, that somebody plays a prettypivotal role, and that is the professional educ?, tors in this province, and I am afraid there could be too many opportunities for witch hunts, not conducted in any public way, but behind the closed doors and that the power is applied in a way that may be unfair .and discriminatory.

It would seem to me, Mr. Chairman, that one of the responsibilities of the Minister would be to recognize, or at least sense that that is an emerging problem in a year when there is a matter of fundamental disagreements, and that one of the require ments that we should have is to at least set forward the procedures by which that kind of disagreement over education can take place, and to assure that there perhaps is proper

30 66 April 29, 1976 SUPP LY - EDUCATION (MR. AXWORTHY cont'd) ••••• protection for the rights of the professional educator in this cas e. Because if those rights are not protected then I am afraid that it will not work out very well as far as schools are concerned, and that we will simply be putting a subtle form of muzzling upon our professional educators at a time, Mr. Chairman, when quite the opposite should be happening, when we should be opening it up, and when we should be encouraging a higher freedom of ex pression.

Because I suppose if you can't get down to debating education about education then we're not going to do it anywhere else . There has been far too much on it as far as I am concerned, a suppression really in all areas of adequate debate, certainly it's even occurring to a large degree in univer sities , partially because I guess education has become so dependent upon the public purse, frankly, that if the - I guess the lessons that we went through in the Ame rican School systems historically, I'm afraid may be repeated here in

part 1that the power of the purse becomes the power to sort of determine the style of education, and yet that is the last area in which it should take place, and it's taking place in numbers of areas related to education. The more that government pays for the curriculum and the teachers and the research and everything else, the more they call the tune , and they're only going to call tunes that th ey want to hear , not the tunes that perhaps should be called at least to allow for the different kinds of melodies to be expressed. So , Mr.

Chairman, I would want to raise that issue with the Minister because I think it is one that bears looking at. There is enough evidence that we've seen lately to determine that those actions certainly leave me uncomfortable about what is taking place and it should be that this Legislature should at least understand what kind of action , if any, the Minister is proposing to deal with it. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Education. MR. HANUSCHAK: Well, Mr.

Chairman, the honourable member for Fort Rouge draws our attention to his concern about what he refers to as dismissals and/or forced resignations , of which he feels he has seen evidence of in the Province of Manitoba, He refers to two particular cases . --(Interjection) -- Three? Gimli, Winnipeg --(Inter jec tion) -- Killarney? I'm sorry, I've forgotten the name but the two I do distinctly re member.

Al l of those referred to do not fall into the same category because principals in all the school divisions of the Province of Manitoba do have the same protection as teachers within their school division, as any other teachers do in terms of security of tenure as teachers . That same protection I agree does not extend to protecting their position in their particular assignment, whatever it may be principal or vice-principal, but certainly it does insofar as th eir position as a teacher is concerned.

In other words, one who has been on staff within a division for a period in excess of two years, if he is dismissed he has a form of recourse under the Public School Ac t, whi ch is open to all teachers . So he is entitled to the same rights as all others , that is, to protect his rights as a teacher. But this does not extend to the protection of his rights to whatever pro motion or other assignment that a school division may give a teacher on staffJappointing him a department head, a vice -principal, a supervisor, a director a principal, or what ever they may call him.

Then the honourable member also makes reference to the case of a superinten dent, a more recent one , and he claims that there was no explanation given. Well, Mr. Chairman, I think it would be most unfair at this point in time to accuse the Winnipeg School Division of not having given an explanation . As you will recall 1this incident as was reported in the press - and I must be very careful of what I say because I can at this point in time my only knowledge of that particular incident is that which I was able to read in the press. There may be some in this House who have a more detailed know ledge of that.

Well that they may have, but that I do not ha ve. So therefore, I cannot at this point say that it's fair or unfair that there was no explanation, or insufficient ex planation or whatever explaining the board's actions to their constituen ts. Now, you know, it must be borne in mind, Mr.

Chairman, that - and I'm now speaking of superintendents in our schools , in our school system, of superintendents in general - that a superintendent, it's true , he is a professional educator, but his role and function is in some respects different from that of a teacher in the classroom, from that of a school principal, as is presently recognized. In fact, you know, I must admit that - .

April 29, 1976 3067 SUPP LY - EDUCATI ON (MR. HANUSCHAK cont'd) . and here again I am in no position either to take one side on the issue, or the other. There is considerable debate going on at this point in time as to the role and function of the school principal. That is to say, is the school principal in fact a teacher or is he part of administration? But I don't think there is any doubt in any body's mind that a superintendent is an administrator responsible for the ad ministration of the policy guidelines as establis hed by his board.

In other words, he's more than merely an educational leader of the school system but he in fact assumes the responsibility for the entire operation of the school division. I think, Mr. Chairman, one knows that in all sectors of our community wherever it may be that the senior, or the most senior administrative posts , or in the most senior administrative posts rather, that is the encumbent , as far as the encumbent's concerned that is the risk that he takes . In private industry a manager, a general manager, a manager of a branch of any company, he assumes the same risks.

He's hired, he 's expected to perform certain functions, and if he does not he certainly has less protection than another employee within his firm may have under the terms and provisions of a colle ctive agreement . Up until the present time, and including the present time, it's under those terms and conditions that school superintendents have operated, and under those terms and con ditions that they have accepted employment in that capacity, on the understanding that they were prepared to commit themselves to give effect to the policy decisions of the board whom they have agreed to serve.

An d that I suppose is the long and the short of it. If the board should at any time feel that they have lost confidence with their supe rintendent, that he is no longer carrying out the policy decisions of the board, then that signifies the results in the termination of his employment . Now, I personally, Mr.

Chairman, find it somewhat difficult to distinguish bet ween a superintendent, looking at him from that vantage point as a professional educator, yes , but also the chief administrator assuming the responsibilities that he does , distin guishing him from one acting in a similar capacity in a government department, one act ing in a similar capacity in pri vate industry, because I know that in those areas individ uals acting in that capacity have to accept a similar risk.

So therefore, you know , on what basis , what jus tification can there be to extend a greater measure of protection to one operating within one area of activity than is extended to those operating in a similar capacity in other areas of activities such as government or in the private sector. MR. CHA ffiMAN: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MR. AXWORTHY: Well, Mr. Chairman, the Minister gave some explanation, and I think he finally came down to the point I was trying to make, that education is dif ferent, it is special.

We're not talking about somebody who is a general manager of a firm that makes rubber boots or something; we're talking about an area of pretty impor tant sens itivity because you're dealing in a realm of ideas and in a realm of learning. I don't think the analogy to a factory line or something is quite analogous. I don't think you can make that comparison.

I think that certainly the history of education as I've understood it has always been that it has to be treated based upon somewhat different principles because it is involved in • The very subject matter to which we're deal ing has a special quality to it that just simply can't be compared to every other aspect of life, or every other facet. I think that that is the point, Mr. Chairman, that education is too important to be simply treated in the same way as every other aspect of government . We are dealing with something special.

An d it is not, as I said,. denying, and I'm not suggesting that we deny the right for school boards to make those decisions - that's what they're elected to do - but I do think it should be required in some way that disclosure or explanation accompany these kind of actions , where they're related to principals , or vice -principals or senior personnel, so that the public itself has some understanding as to why these are taking place, and they're not treated really in a fairly totally close -mouthed type of way.

Because that does not engage in the debate, and in some cases can cast pretty serious aspersions upon the professional conduct or behaviour when in fact it may be a matter of dispute of policy. And if that's the nature of the dispute then it should be so stated, so that people who elect the school board know that's the reason why, and that they can't sort of pass it off as being some other reason that may have to deal with professional competence.

3068 April 29, 1976 SUPP LY - EDUCATION (MR, AXWORTHY cont'

d) Now, Mr. Chairman, I don't have a solution in mind; I don't have a draft amend ment to the Public Schools Ac t to lay on the Minister, but I am suggesting that I think at this time, particularly in an era when he himself just recognized, he's just gone through an hour of that ldnd of questioning about his relationship in terms of the role of his own staff. Do you realize that because education is moving in to a point where there is going to be, and without having great powers of prediction, where there is going to be some very serious counterpoints of argument - I think we can all see it coming.

It's happening right now - that you're putting some careers, some very important careers on the line in this ldnd of situation. I just simply say, we should provide some protection not only for them, but also for the public itself, so that ldnd of a debate does not take place always behind closed corridors or take place to serve mute silences about reasons why. If there's going to be a debate about education, let's have one. And if educators are prepared to take a stand on a certain idea and are prepared to put their careers on the line, then that's fine, well and good.

I think that's an honourable way of conducting your profession. But I think at the same time that the treatment of it has got to be reciprocal on the other side, on the part of the employer, the school board, All I'm simply saying, I don't think the requirements under our Act enable that to take place in a balanced way. And I really think it becomes one-sided and as a result, unfortunately, can lead to intimidation. If I may be allowed, Mr. Chairman, to just give an example.

When I was studying down in the United States - and this goes back ten, well more than that, fifteen years I guess - in the State of New Jersey, where similar incidents resulted, where there were at that time certain religious groups who were waging a crusade to clean up educa tion in that particular state. They were able, in a period of time, to take control of many school boards in the counties in that state and as a result there were a large num ber of dismissals . And the thing that became quite obvious to me at that time , watching that thing and just observing it, is that it really was a one-sided debate.

And that if we're going to make it a proper and fair debate, then I think that the power of the school board, in this case, has at least got to be delimitated or articulated in terms of what procedure it must follow in terms of these dismissals of principals, vice-principals and superintendent personnel, not to take away its power but to make sure that it is conducted in a way that is fair and equitable. And that is my concern at this point. I don't think that there is that kind of fairness, at least in procedure presently available.

And I'd simply like the Minister to puzzle that one through and come up with some answers . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Education. MR. HANUSCHAK: Mr. Chairman, you know in the five years that I have been Minister of Education, this, for whatever it's worth, this has not been an issue raised by the Ass ociation of School Superintendents, that is to say, seeking any legislation which would give them any greater measure of security of tenure than they have , under the terms of a contract of employment with their particular board.

And no doubt the con tracts of employment differ from school division to school division, and the school divi sion, and the school division is at liberty to negotiate it's own contract of employment with its superintendent. I would agree with the Honourable Member for Fort Rouge that education is ex tremely important and I do not want to leave him with the impression that I'm attempting to draw a direct analogy between the role and functions of a superintendent and the man ager, or a general manager of some manufacturing concern. But to a degree in some respects there are similarities, Mr.

Chairman, and the basic similarity is this one: That as the general manager is expected to, and hired to give effect to directives and policy decisions agreed to by his board of directors, in a similar fashion a superinten dent is hired to give effect to the policy decisions agreed to by his board of trustees. So to that extent I believe that there is a similarity.

The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge suggests that in the case of a termina tion of a contract of employment of a superintendent that there ought to be some public accounting, Well I would ask the honourable member that if that were done so in the case of a superintendent, then would the honourable member also recommend that a similar procedure be followed in a case of the termination of employment of each and every

April 29, 1976 3069 SUPP LY -E DUCATION (MR. HANUSCHAK cont'd) . teacher. I would like to suggest to him that that may be a two-edged sword in looking at it from the point of view of the future wel fare of the particular teacher or of the particular superintendent. Well on a matter of public accountability, I believe, Mr. Chairman, that the school trustees are elected to devise and implement certain particular education policies that they collectively may agree to, and it is for that that they ought to be and are held accountable to their constituents.

They are not elected as school trustees nor do they function as a school board for the express purpose of hiring certain individuals to teach, or of appointing certain individuals as principals or vice-principals of their schools, or of hiring a certain individual as superintendent; they are accountable to their electorate at election time for the delivery of a certain education program which they had committed themselves to and for which they have struck a certain mill rate for which the taxpayers are paying, and it is for that that they are accountable, but not for specific individuals.

If I were a trustee, it is for that that I would consider myself accountable. In the same manner as Minister of Education in the consideration of the Estimates of my department I consider myself as being accountable for the program of my department, not for the hiring, promotion, or demotion, or whatever, of any particular individuals. It is the right of this committee to question, scrutinize, analyze, criticize my programs in what ever fashion anyone wishes to, and it is for that that I am responsible to the electorate.

I did not run, nor did we become the government for the purpose of hiring certain indi viduals , but the commitments that we made to the people of the Province of Manitoba was to deliver certain programs . It is on that that a government stands or falls. I think the same can be said of a school board, that a school board stands or falls on the program that it delivers , and not on whether or not it hires or fires a certain individual or indi viduals. Now I'm sure, Mr.

Chairman, that if a school board should make a wrong decision, should continue to make wrong decisions, that that eventually will reflect itself, and perhaps in some cases more rapidly than some may think that it would, would reflect itself in a deterioration of the quality of the educational program within that division. For that purpose, Mr. Chairman, we have elections from time to time at which time the elec torate has the opportunity to make the decision as to whether they wish to re-elect the same individuals to continue serving them, or to turf them out and replace them with others . MR.

AXWORTHY: Well, Mr. Chairman, I see that we're not going to get very far with this, so I guess there's not much point in prolonging it, simply to point out that while the Minister pres ents an interesting theory about the way school boards work, it doesn't bear out in fact.

I forget what the exact figure is , but it strikes me that some what more than half of the school boards in the Province of Manitoba were elected, not even elected, were acquired by acclamation in the past year, so that that cut and thrust of public enquiry and debate is obviously not apparent, and that therefore they oftentimes make decisions based upon consensus and that unfortunately aren't even subject to the same procedure of enquiry that we can apply to the Minister of this House, as far as it gets us .

But even that form of accountability is not normally available under the school board system, it just doesn't work that way. The point we're trying to make is that I think there is nothing sacrosanct about any system or structured organization; the only thing that must be judged is whether it works according to certain principles or not.

I'm simply saying that I think that some of the structures and the way that we're doing it are not adequate to meet the kind of conditions that would be storming about in the field of education, and that it would just simply require some discussion, perhaps no more than simply raising the issue with the Asso ciation of School Trustees and other educational bodies to determine their concerns or wants or desires in certain areas so that maybe some solution can be pointed out.

But it goes back again to the question of leadership, that rather than simply hiding their head in the sand and pretending that the problem doesn't exist, that there is some interest in addressing it and saying whether it's a procedural reform, as to whether it's a legislative reform, or whether it's simply a matter of talking with educators in the province to find out what can be done to ensure that there is some safeguards and some

30 70 April 29 , 1976 SUPPLY -E DUCATION (MR. AXWORTHY cont'd) • guarantees against these kinds of activities of abrupt and seemingly unexplained actions that some ways can be found to_ ameliorate that problem and come to some solution. And again I don't accept the Minister's explanation that he was not elected to hire people. That's nonsense; it doesn't work. One of the maj or functions of government in the provision of services is the people that it puts in place to conduct those services , and in the field of education --(Interj ection)-- No, it's not true , programs are delivered by people, Mr. Chairman.

In the field of education, it is a service, there is no product that's coming out. Your pro:gram is determined by the kind of people who are there to deliver it and certainly they're people who embody or espouse a certain philosophy of education. All I'm simply saying is that if there is going to be that debate then that should come to the forefront and be articulated. I would de fend the right of school boards to fire people.

If they want to get rid of a guy because they don't agree with his thesis , then get rid of him, but at least let the stated reason be requi red and that there be accountability on those grounds, not upon no grounds at all, but simply dismissal, because that does then lead to the temptation to simply follow the whims and caprices and not have to be accountable for your actions, which I think is really the touchstone of a democratic system. MR. HANUSCHAK: Mr.

Chairman, as I had indicated the other day, it is my hope that within the next year that there would be ample opportunity for public debate of the Public Schools Act and no doubt the role and function of the school superintendent will constitute part of that debate.

That may be an excellent opportunity to deal with much more than merely the question of termination of employment of a school superintendent but perhaps a redefinition of his role and function, and that may be a time to have good public discussion on this topic and obtain the reaction, obtain the benefit of the views and opinions of those most directly invol ved, trustees and superintendents , teachers and the public at large, because as I have indicated before, and as all of us would agree, that every person, every person bar none, does have an interest in education and certainly anyone having any views to express should have an opportunity to do so; and during such a debate as I have an opportunity for discussion, as I had made reference to earlier, dur ing the consideration of my Estimates 1that may be the time to deal with the particular issue raised by the Honourable Member for Fort Rouge.

West. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 46(b)(l). The Honourable Member for Brandon MR. McGILL: Mr. Chairman, there's been some reference made to the Public Schools Act and there is one

section of the Act that I would like to deal with just for a moment. The

section under the duties of teachers, 28 3 I believe it is in my copy, and the (

a) section says that every teacher shall teach dili gently and faithfully all the courses prescribed or otherwise authorized for the school according to the terms of his agree ment with the school district, and according to this Act and regulations, and under (

c) maintain proper order and discipline in the school according to the re gulations. Mr. Chairman, there is a considerable body of pretty well informed opinion that believes that the two foregoing clauses are not being satisfactorily fulfilled, and I'm wonderin g if the Minister could comment on this, is it related to, or does this opinion arise from the fact that the decentralization of authority to classroom from the depart ment is putting an additional load in respect to the maintenance of discipline in the class room.

There have been some comments made recently that, there has been a survey made by the Winnipeg Teachers Association where they said that two of every four teachers in the Winnipeg School Division believes students' behaviour has deteriorated in the last five years, and they go on to comment on this and point out that there's a part icular problem in the junior high schools as opposed to the higher schools, that there's less difference in the straight high schools than there is at the junior high level. I wonder if the Minister would comment on that. MR. HANUSCHAK: Gladly, Mr. Chairman.

It is beyond me how the honourable member relates an expression of qpinion that there is a deterioration of behaviour on the part of students with negligence of duty on the part of school trustees , it is just absolut ely beyond my powers of comprehension. If there is any deterioration of behaviour anywhere, I'm quite certain that the school trustees are quite capable and competent to see to it that

April 29 , 1976 30 71 SUPPLY -E DUCATION (MR. HANUSCHAK cont'd) • those whom they've hired to teach diligently and to maintain order and discipline are doing so. MR. McGILL: Mr. Chairman, I wonder, does the department have any group of officials that have the responsibility to determine whether these important duties of teachers are being discharged. Is there any supervision or inspection of the problem of discipline in the classroom by your department? MR. HANUSCHAK: No, Mr.

Chairman, there has never been anyone in the employ of the Department of Education at any time since the Public Schools Act came into being whose right it was to encroach upon the responsibilities of the School Board. MR. McGILL: Well then, under the Public Schools Act, is the Minister satis fied that all of the duties are being carried out according to the Act? If he has no way of inspecting what's going on in the classrooms, how does he know that the teachers are performing and maintaining a level of discipline, or are able to on their own, that is consistent with the requirements of the Public Schools Act?

MR. HANUSCHAK: Yes, Mr. Chairman, the reaction of, I was going to say one million people of the Province of Manitoba, that is not the number, it's a number less than that, it's the number whose age is over and above that of 18, becaus e they're the ones who elect the school trustees, and I'm quite certain that if in any school division it should become apparent that the school board is employing teachers who are not teach ing dili gently, is employing teachers who are not maintaining order and discipline, that those trustees would be very quickly turfed out of office. MR. McGILL: Mr.

Chairman, is it the responsibility of the department to see that the terms of the Public Schools Act are enforced? MR. HANUSCHAK: Yes , Mr. Chairman. MR. McGILL: Mr. Chairman, if the department has no way of inspecting the level of discipline how is he enforcing the Act, or how is he administering the Act in respect to discipline ? MR.

HANUSCHAK: Because there is evid ence to indicate that there is teaching going on in the school system, and I would hope, I don't know, but I would hope that the Honourable Member for Brandon West would understand that for teaching to take place that there must be a certain measure of order and discipline, and diligent teaching. MR. CHAffiMAN: Resolution 46(h)(1) --pass; (b)(2) --pass. The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge . MR. AXWORTHY: Just a matter of inquiry, Mr. Chairman.

Because it is not available in this year's estimates, is this the category under which the Manitoba Text Book Bureau would be examined, or could the Minister indicate the more appropriate place for it? MR. CHAffiMAN: The Honourable Minister of Education. MR. HANUSCHAK: Mr. Chairman, the Text Book Bureau will be dealt with under 3, Financial Support Public Schools. MR. CHAmMAN: (

c) Statutory Boards and Commissions. The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MR. AXWORTHY: Mr. in this particular category again. visory boards such as the Fr ench board would be considered ? Chairman, I'm sorry, I have another question in terms Would this be the area under which the different ad language advisory board, English language advisory MR. HANUSCHAK: Yes, Mr. Chairman, this does includ e all statutory boards and commissions and the French and the English language advisory boards are statutory boards under

section 258 of the Public Schools Act, so it would be under this appropri- ation. MR. AXWORTHY: Well that being the case, Mr. Chairman, I have some ques tions for the Minister in terms of the activity, particularly of the French Language Adv isory Board, and I guess it really emanates from the recent changes that have been discussed or announced in the proposals for French language instruction from Ottawa, both the report that was received by the Language Commissioner, and the recent pro.· posals put forward by the Secretary of State for increased aid, if the provinces are able to come up or develop programs, and I would like to know really. at this stage if that

3072 April 29 , 1976 SUPPLY - EDUCATION (MR. AXWORTHY) • • . • . particular French Language Advisory Board has in being any of those plans or programs that would allow or permit this province to acquire the kind of support that the Federal Secretary of State is talking about in terms of expanding and en richening the French language programs in the Province of Manitoba. MR. HANUSCHAK: Yes, Mr. Chairman, the matter raised by the Honourable Member for Fort Rouge is not really the responsibility of either of the two Advisory committees to which he has made reference. If he will check

Section 258 of the Public Schools Ac t he will find that with reference to both committees, the English Language Advisory Committee and the French Language Advisory Committee, the

section sets out the make-up of the two committees, they are nine in n•unber as I recall it, and they deal - each nine numbers that is - they deal with matters referred to them by the Minister. Yes,

Section 258, suooection (5) and

(6) I believe of the Public Schools Act, and they deal with matters referred to them , that is both committees, by the Minister, so they deal with matters related to the implementation and the conduct of the two programs, English and French. But the prim ary responsibility, Mr. Chairman, or the initiative rather for the expansion of a French program really lies at the local level, at the division level, at the parents level, and there is also a

section within the Act to that effect which gives a School Board the right on its own initiative to institute a program wherein French be a language of instruction, and it even goes beyond that to say that if a request should be forthcoming from a certain minimum number of parents - either minimum number of parents or parents of a minimum number of students, I've forgotten the exact phraseology of that particular

section - but whichever it is , if the request comes from a required number of parents, then the school board "shall" institute a program of instruction in French or English, as the case may be. If in a school wherein French is the language of instruction there should be a request for English, then provis ion should be made for English, and vice versa. At the present time • well when legislation came into being, it was sort of a one-way street, requests for instruction in French.

So if that should happen then the board is obligated to offer instruction in French and then having taken that step then there is provision which we can deal with in a subsequent item on my Es timates, the es tablishment of development grants that are paid for a Francais program as well as grants to cover the additional costs over and above the costs that a board would normally incur for the conduct of a program of instruction in English that it has to pick up, and there is a continuing grant to cover that , related to, of course, the number of students enrolled . MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MR. AXWORTHY: Well, Mr. Chairman, I'm looking at

Section 25 8 (5) and it seems to be a pretty broad based mandate for the Minister to refer any matters pertain ing to the use of French as a language of instruction in public schools, and it goes back really to, I guess, wha t appears to be a sort of contradiction in the position taken - and let me just beg your indulgence for a moment, Mr. Chairman - in a question period to the Minister some weeks back, I asked the question about the proposals that had come forward from the Winnipeg School Division. for the establishment of expanded French lang uage programs in their school division.

At that time the Minister indicated that he was not prepared to deal with individualized proposals but that they wanted to establish a provincial-wide universal type program that would apply to all school divisio ns and have a common bas e, and that therefore I assume that is the reason why,i n which the provincial, in effect, unilaterally withdrew - if it did, because we 're not too sure - from that part icular specific proposal coming from the Winnipeg School Division. Now he says we have to go back to individual school divisions to get the proposals coming from them. That strikes me I think by most

definitions as being a contradiction. I would further go on and say that the instruction or the recommendation that came from Mr. Faulkn er, the Secretary of State , dealt in a broader base of the develop ment of bilingual programs in the provinces and he was quite specific. I don't have the exact wording, but he said that, in effect, the Federal Government was now prepared to change the funding formula upon the request of the province which came forward with a provincial program for bilingual instruction. I believe he now offered 50 cents on a dollar and just having come back from the capital city, newspaper stories there recognized how

April 29 , 1976 3073 SUPPLY - EDUCA TION (MR. AXWORTHY cont'd ) • in that particular area the Province of Ontario just received a substantial new support for its bilingual programs in the Ottawa schools . And yet the Minister now says that the issue is one of a local initiative from the local school board and once it's accepted then he may be prepared to determine whether there will be grants on it. It seems to me then, Mr.

Chairman, that we're losing something along the way, that either we have a provincial program or we don't ; and if we do, then there shouldn't have been the kind of thing that happened in relation to the Winnipeg School Division. If in fact there is a provincial program, it would seem to me that the French language advisory board would be the proper medium within which that would be referred and developed, and if the province or the Department of Education itself had some initia tive then it would be referred to this committee and they would determine it's usefulness as a language program .

I guess what I am trying to say at this stage , Mr. Chairman, is that it seems an important turning point in the development of bilingual instructions in our school system. There appears to be some willingness or readiness on the part of the Federal Government to alter its attitude towards it and perhaps the strong importunings of Mr. Spicer had something to do with it. Whatever the reason is , they seem to be altering their position.

I'm concerned that we may not be, here in Manitoba, able to take advantage of that change and make what could be a very very important alteration in the basic construction of our school system which is to introduce bilingual ins truction on a much wider basis . It would seem to me that that would be something of high priority for the Minister, the French language advisory committee and the school board themselves. And that's why I'm trying to determine at what stage are we at in this fairly significant junctur e. Where is the initiative being taken. At what stage is the debate going on ?

Is the committee exam ining alternate proposals for a provincial-wide program? Is the province prepared to go to Ottawa and make some recommendation or put forward a series of propositions about how we would like to see it happen in Manitoba; and exactly, as they say, who is on first base on this ? I think that 's really the kind of inquiry to have. MR. HANUSCHAK: Mr. Chairman, really there is no contradiction at all in what I had said earlier.

What I said, that the initiative has to come from the division level in whatever fashion it originates, you know either it takes roots within a school board or from a group of parents, and from a group of parents to the board, but never theless it's at the division level. All that I was saying, Mr. Chairman, is that it is not the intention of this department to go to any school division and say that thou shalt offer such a program. That decision has to be made by the board. But then once that decision has been made, Mr.

Chairman, then the funding formula - and the funds are there to cover the additional cost for the Winnipeg School Division, for the operation of their French immersion program as well as for other sch ool divisions . We'l l have an oppor t nity to go into the details of that, Mr. Chairman, as you well know, under Item 3, under Financial Support to Public Schools , when we can go into the detail of the funding arrange ment for the Francais program in the Province of Manitoba. MR. AXWORT HY: Well, Mr.

Chairman, I think I'm beginning to see some clarification in the Minister's remarks , but I still think that he is begging the issue I raised with him, and that is at this particular point in time when Ottawa itself is changing the rules , seeming to offer a different formula for the funding of bilingual instruction, and is simply now asking the provinces to come forward with funding proposals based upon Mr. Faulkner's statement which I think is now perhaps only two weeks old . The issue I' m still trying to get at is that where does the province fit into this .

Is it simply acting in a responsive role to a local school board which is actually responding to parents , or in fact is the province beginning to say, "look, we want to establish some basic criteria, so that individual groups of parents or school boards would know under what conditions , under what criteria they may come forward with proposals.

" And that rather than being simply responsive that there should be some delineation of those criteria, whether old or new, and particularly at this stage saying that if Ottawa is prepared to re-examine its position in relation to French language instruction, we're going to as a province come forward with a proposal by which we can acquire certain moneys , add our own to them if

3074 April 29 , 1976 SUPPLY - EDUCATJON (MR. AXWORTHY cont'd) • they're required and therefore the local school boards would have a clear understanding of the kind of funding that they can expect and the kind of programs that could be elaborated. Because, Mr. Chairman, as I followed the debates about Sacre Coeur, Brock-Corydon in the School Division of Winnipeg 1, one of the reasons why there has been such debate at the school board level has been the con fusion about funding, as to who's responsible, and how far can a program go.

It would seem to me that those confusions could be clarified if there was a clarifica tion on a pro vincial level. And I'm in this case not trying to be critical, saying go beyond that, I'd like to get some sense from the Minister at this stage, what are we going to do to really respond to Mr. Faulkner's offer, in effect. MR. HANUSCHAK: Well, Mr. Chairman, as far as the existing arrangements are concerned with respect to Federal support for instruction in the official language is concerned, I can assure the honourable member that we are taking full advantage of it.

Insofar as any more recent announcements that may have been made by the Minister re sponsible for bilingualism at the Federal level, I can assure him that once I receive of ficial communication from the Minister, spelling out the details of what additional level of support may be available to the province, then certainly that will be communicated to the school divisions to inform them of • then in turn as that would reflect itself in additional assistance from the province to the divisions, that information would be corn municated to the boards by my staff.

But again I would like to remind the honourable member that on the question of funding, level of funding, and the breakdown of the grants, could perhaps be more appropriately dealt with when we reach Item 3 under XXI being the Education Estimates , under Financial Support, and at that time we could go into a detailed discussion of the funding of the Francais program in Manitoba. MR. AXWORTHY: Well, Mr.

Chairman, I guess maybe we should take a look at the problem of the mails between here and Ottawa, but in the April 13th Free Press there is a story which reads, "The Federal Government is now prepared to pay provinces up to 50 percent of the extra cost of establishing or expanding se cond language instruction in schools, Secretary Hugh Faulkner said Monday. 'The govermrent would willingly raise the amount it now provides for such programs if provinces approved the money it would be used effectively, he told reporters. It all depends on the provinces .

Ottawa now pro vides up to 9 percent of the cost of extended French instruction in all provinces but Quebec under an elaborate cost-sharing formula, which .Mr. Faulkner said recently was pulled out of the hat and should be reviewed. Mr. Faulkner then said he is anxious to start a review of the formula and there would be no problem increasing the 9 percent ceiling once provinces prove the extra money would be spent on effective second language instruction. >' It seems to me , Mr.

Chairman, that's a fairly clear indication that he is looking for response from the provinces , and I gather, I don't have it with me, but in the Ottawa Citizen yesterday, the Province of Ontario has·now responded with a direct proposal.

So I'm simply saying that here it seems, and I could be corrected, that the Federal Govern ment is prepared to up the anti to 50 cents on a dollar from its present formula, it clearly indicated that it depends upon the provinces to prove the effect - all it has to prove is the effectiveness with which that money would be spent, and it would seem to me that should be some call for fairly quick action. And let me extend that particular proposal, Mr. Chairman.

I don't think we're talking about a small frill addition to the school system, because many of the parents that I have talked to have said that they see the opportunity for their children to learn French as the second official language as being fundamental to the careers and the educational growth of their children, that there's no hiding the fact that in this J!3.rt of the country we haven't been exactly wildly enthusiastic about bilingualism. I think the major focus of opposition has been centered, however, on the program as it's elaborated in terms of the training of civil servants in Ottawa.

I do think there's widespread support of the expan sion for opportunities for second language training for children, so when the time comes to make career choices in this country five or ten years from now . they will not have handicaps caused by it. I think every parent is interested in the welfare, in the opportunity

April 29, 1976 3075 SUPPLY - EDUCATION (MR. AXWORTHY cont'd) • his child will have as they grow up. This seems to be one of the important ways of developing it.

I don't think we're going to turn the clock back on bilingua lism , although I realize that that is the ambition of some of our colleagues in this province, as I saw in the last federal election in Winnipeg South, but would think that generally that the basic trend has been established , it is going to be a bilingual country, and if people from Manitoba are going to work in Ottawa or Montreal or Edmonton, the opportunity to have that sec ond language is vital to their career opportuni ties . Now it seems to me, we made an important turn here, I read, Mr. Faulkner's comments as an important turning point.

He's asking the provinces now to come forward and I would simply like to know • . to get from the Mini 13ter what is the province going to do to respond. Is he going to simply wait or --(Interjection )-- Well they may have. Whatever the issu e may be, and we can debate the issue of Quebec, I think that we're talking, however, about children in the Province of Manitoba who are going to be citizens of this country, fully employed citi zens , we hope, and not wanting to limit their opportunity.

I think that the is sue of Quebec is something that we can also raise along the way, but the language criteria is going to be more important, and I guess we all suffer for not having had that advantage when we were going to sc hool. There is some thing that seems to be fairly clear-cut, Mr. Chairman, and all I'm really trying to find out at this point from the Mini ster, sort of saying, okay, what's the next step ? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Minis ter of Education . MR. HANUSCHAK: Mr.

Chairman, as I'm sure the Honourable Member from Fort Rouge would be the first to agree that it would be irresponsible on my part to pro ceed on the basis of a newspaper repo rt, although having said that, I, you know, in no way question the content of the report which he has just read into the record. I want to assure the Honourable Member for Fort Rouge that there is close liaison1 communication� between my department and that of Mr. Faulkner at various levels. I have indicated to him earlier that I have not officially received any proposal delivered to me at this point in time.

Discuss ions are under way and it is my hope within the next few days to announce to the House the extent to whi ch the beneficiaries of a Francais program in the Manitoba sch ools will be able to take advantage of any additional assi stance that may be forthcoming from Ottawa. MR. CHAIRMAN: Pass. MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, it's my understanding that the next item may take some cons iderable debate, it may be a sui table occasion to suggest adjournment of the committee at this stage if it's agreeable to the committee. MR. CHAIRMAN: Committee ris e. Call in the Speaker. Mr.

Sp eaker, the Committee of Supply has adopted certain resolutions and has instructed me to report same and asks leave to sit again.

3076 April 29 , 1976 COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY - DEPARTMENT OF HIGHWAYS MR. CHAmMAN (Mr. Waldi ng): Order plea se . There being a quorum. the Co=it tee will come to order. I would refer honourable members to Page 33 in their Estimates Book. The Department of Highways . Resol ution 64(a)-the Minister's Compensation. The Honourable Minister of Highways . MR. BURTNIAK: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. First of all I want to take this opportunity to say that I'm very pleased to be able to present my Estimates to the honour able members this year.

I wasn't able to last year and I would like to thank all the members of the Legisl ature for their patience and good wishes during the time of my il lness . Particularly I would like to thank my colleague , the Honourable the Minister of Agricu1ture for filling in for me and on doing an excellent job on my behalf . Well this year's program, Mr. Chairman, which I hope you have all received, once again should only be considered as a priority program. As much of this program as is humanly possible will be completed bearing in mind the detrimental eff ects of escal ating costs and weather conditions and the lik es.

I'm extremely proud of the performance of the Department of Highways person nel from the most recent recruit to the many seasoned veterans, I would like to co=end the Deputy Minister, Mr. Joe Brako, for his usual fine and diligent performance during the past year and also Mr. Jack Peacock, our chief engineer, for his conscientious ef forts • The first branch of course of the department that I would like to discuss, is the Highways Branch mainly because it represents the greater portion of ,the Budget.

I thought I would go into the question of rail line abandonment at this time how ever I do recollect that during the Throne Speech Debate the Honourable Member for Roblin made reference to this particular question and he did indicate that perhaps he may have some questions of me at the time of my Estimates . I'm sure maybe some of the other members probably have and perhaps we can have a better discussion at this time on this question than me making any comments at the present time. I do want to, Mr.

Chairman, mention the fact that the Honourable Member for Birtle-Russell has made some what I think are derogatory remarks about the Department of Highways concerning PTH 41 in the vicinity of St. Lazare. I want to point out to the members of the co=ittee that the problem in St. Lazare has existed since early 1960s, it's not something new. I find it very interesting that with reSpect to this particular situation the previous Minister of Highways, and I'm talking about the previous admini stration, had real diff iculty in trying to resolve the problems on this particular

section of the road, 41, in St. Lazare. I'd like to just continue on that for a moment if I may to quote directly from the report that I have from the Highway Department's Chief Con struction Engineer. These are the comments that. he makes about PTH 41 just to set the record straight. "Prior to 1965 various preliminary surveys were carried out in the As siniboine Valley for the relocation of PTH 41 in the vicinity of St. Lazare. In 1965 the whole area was flown and photography was taken. From this photography a complete topographical map was prepared. From this map locations were again pl otted and assessed.

In early 1969 the District Engineer brought forth a proposal to by-pass the village on the north. It was decided at that time to prepare a plan to asce rtain if necessary right-of-way could be purchased. This plan was signed on July 9th, 1969 just a week " - if that bears any signific ance -" just a week before this ailmjnjstration took off ire. "This plan was sent to the Land Acquisition for their evaluation. At the presentation of this plan to the land owners I understand a violent protest was registered because this plan had severed a new subdivision with costly relocation of sewer and water connections.

The land owners were of the opinion that the Department should deviate to the south of the village and overpass the railway . Investigation of this route by the Materials Branch and the district staff found it to be impractical as the railway track at this location had been shlfting over the past 30 years and the presence of springs were predominant in slip sections. Therefore it was deemed not practical to prooeed at this location although actual survey lines were projected and quantities were calc ulated. "From 1970 to November 1974, extensive drilling took place and surveys were

A pril 29 , 1976 3077 SU PPLY - HIGHWAYS (MR. BURTNIAK cont'd) ••••• projected towards the extension of Second Avenue westerly through the main hill. It was generally agreed to attempt a design straight through the main hill. On completion of the design, it was found not feasible due to the waste excavation disposal . Also the Materials Branch advised that from their drillings they could not guarantee that further slip se ctions would not re-occur.

On the basis of these findings, early in 1975 it was decided to reconstruct along the pre sent location but changing aligmnent both vertically and horiz ontally to achieve the most desirable roadway as circumstances permitted. With road reconstruction in the existing location it was anticipated that traffic would create additional construction problems • With the necessity of excavating for French drains and the presence of pro jected slip sections, it was possible to call a quantitative contract without paying pro hibitive prices or entertaining future litigation.

We therefore asked Keating Brothers, the contractor for PTH 41 immediately west of this section, to provide the machinery necessary to perform the work on the basis of hourly rental at standard government rates . I'm of the opinion that this was the most economical way to proceed. Work commenced in July the contractor working generally in daylight hours only.

But con struction was seriously hampered during the month of August and part of September due to the inclement weather . otherwise we feel that all work would have been completed prior to freeze-up. ''I would at this time add that various contracts called by both the Department of Highways and the Parks Branch on a bid hourly basis have equated at 105-150 percent of government rental rates compared to what we are paying Keating Brothers, a local contractor who generally hires local labour.

I would add at this time, contrary to the comments by others, that every conceivable route for this highway was examined in minute detail and since the early sixties no location was thrown out without much con sultation with all departmental personnel." These comments that I have just used are those of our chief construction en gineer in consultation with the disrict engineer. I ask the question then, how can any member of this Legislature state that the present government ignored the recommenda tions of its engineers.

To leave that for a moment to go into some of the expenditures for last year, I would point out that we can probably break down the various categories into four dif ferent categories; construction, maintenance, aids to towns and villages and administra tion. In construction the Department spent $58 ,3 00, 000 . In maintenance $22, 500, 000; in aids $15,500 ,0 00 ; administration $8, 700, 000 .

The estimated mileage for various types of work done by contract and completed during the past fiscal year in miles: we did 271 miles of grading, 316 miles of graveling, 239 miles gravel base course, 114 miles of asphalt surface treatment, 128 miles of bituminous surfacing and 2 miles of concrete paving. Recently there seems to be a great deal of talk and suggestions that we should k>wer the speed limit on our highways in the interest of reducing highway accidents . Our research department have statements that really do not bear out this claim.

Granted though British Columbia and Ontario have lowered their speed limits on some designated highways their studies indicate that this move did indeed reduce accidents but in British Columbia and Ontario driving conditions, terrain and congestion are entire ly different from what we encounter here in the Province of Manitoba . Let us look at some statistics we have for the Province of Manitoba. In 1974 there was a total of 37, 795 accidents in the province . Urban centres accounted for approximately 30, 00 0 out of this 37 , 795.

One would be led to believe that we should reduce the speed limit in downtown Winnipeg, for example, from 30 down to 25 or per haps down to 20, because 24, 669 accidents occurred in the City of Winnipeg. To put it another way, 80 percent of all accidents in the Province of Manitoba occurred in urban centres where the posted speed limit is 45 miles or less. As I mentioned British Columbia and Ontario claim accidents have been reduced because they reduced speed limits . Ours have gone down and we have not reduced the speed limit.

However we are not ruling out the possibility of speed limit reductions in the Province of Mani toba .

3078 April 29 , 1976 SUPPLY - HIGHWAYS (MR. BURTNIAK cont'

d) The fatal injury accidents were reduced just under 11 percent and deaths as a result of those fatal injury accidents were reduced by approximately 13 percent. In other words the point I'm trying to make is that the last set of statistics if for 1974 and they indicate a reduction in accidents in almost all categories. Turning to the Motor Vehicle Branch, Mr. Chairman. As in the past the De partment has an excellent record. I would like to commend the Registrar, Mr. Peter Dygala and his staff for his guidance in achieving this status.

In 1975 it was a busy year and a very productive year for the Motor Vehicle Branch. Amongst other things, :it saw the introduction of the Class Licence System in April, 1975 . All licences will be converted to the new class licence by the end of May of this year. Al ong w:ith the intro duction of the class licence new and more stringent medical standards have been prescrib ed for Class I to Cla ss IV lic ences and far more rigid and exacting driver examination is developed and implemented, other provinces that have adopted a similar system will take four to five years to fully convert all their licences.

We will have succeeded in achieving that objective in just over one year. The objective of the class licence system was to upgrade the standards, enhance the knowledge , abilities and skills required to operate a variety of diff erent vehicles which demand more than the basic rudimentary skill necessary to operate a passenger car. We hope that this will be refl ected in the reduction of accidents on our highways. The number of licenced drivers in 1975 showed a very significant increase of approximately 58 , 000 new drivers . In absolute numbers the increase was from 480 , 000 to 538 ,0 00 drivers.

In percentage terms a 13 percen t increase. The number of vehicles registered during 1975 also increased from 506, 000 to 532, 000 vehicles for an increase of approximately 5 percent. Snowmobile registrations at the end of 1975 stood at approximately 40, 000. This year will be renewal year for snowmobile registrations and as members are aware the Motor Vehicle Branch developed a unique method of registration and identification of snowmobiles. The present licence plate method of identification has proven to be most unsatisfactory.

Because of the location of the plate :it was frequently obscured by either the operator's or passenger's fe et making it diff icult and sometimes impossible for police and private citizens to identify a snowmobile which was being operated in contravention of The Snowmobile Act. Eff ective this year all snowmobile s will be issued with two perman ent reflective decals which will have to be mounted on each side of the cowling, These decals will serve to identify the owner of the snowmobile.

In addition, a small licence plate will be issued to the owner at the time of registration which will constitute proof that the snowmobile has been registered for the current registration year. The small plate will have to be attached at the rear of the snowmobile. The accidents seen on our highways during 1975 has shown some improvement over the preceding year. Preliminary figures show that a total of 35,1 27 accidents were reported for the year 1975 , This represents a reduction of approximately seven percent. Injury accidents were also reduced from 7, 933 to 6, 977 for a percentage reduction of 12 percent.

These of course, are figure s that are most gratifying, We and other provinces have embarked on an educational program first before legi slating the wearing of seat belts .

We , along w:ith the other provinces, will be watch ing with great interest Ontario's compulsory seat belt le gislation , As has been documented time and again by research in this and other countries, the one single driving behaviour which contributes to more deaths on our highways than any other is the drinking driver, In a society where the use of alcohol is so widespread and forms a part of the fabric of our social interactions, punitive sections by themselves appear insuff icient to curb that problem, In the case of the driver who is no longe r able to control his drinking suspending his licence or imposing other punitive sanctions would not likel y do much to rehabilitate him.

Accordingly, early last year a pilot project has been organized in co-operation with the Alcoholism Fmmdation of Manitoba in an effort to rehabilitate drivers who have or are suspected m having a drinking problem. Drivers convicted of second off ences are referred to this program or they are exposed to a series

April 29 , 1976 3079 SUPPLY -H IGHWAYS (MR . BURTNIAK cont'd) ••••• of lectures, fihns and personal counselling by mem bers af the Ma.nlloba Alcoholism Foundation, following which an asses sment is made as to whether this person has a drinldng problem or not. The resu1ts of the pilot project will be evaluated and if jj; is found that the program is effective in rehabilliating drivers, in the near future it may be extend ed. During the year just ended , there were a total of 7, 221 convictions unde r the Criminal Code relating to the operation of motor vehicle s.

Of these, 5, 346 were convictions related to drinking and drivi ng. This represented an increase of approximately 11 percent over the preced ing year . In addition to convictions under the Criminal Code , there were a total af 83, 000 convictions under the Hi ghway Traff ic Act representing an increase of approximately 14 percent over the preceding year . These convictions and accidents resu1ted in the suspension af 23, 000 drive rs during 175, repre senting an increase af 23 percent over the precedi ng year. The maj or reason for suspensions were as foll ows: 1. Alcohol related off ences; 2.

Suspensions based on poor driving records; 3. Suspensions for other criminal off ences; and 4. Suspension af probationary licence s. The Branch conducted approximately 5, 000 hearings to determine whether a driver should be suspended or not. The introduction af class licence also required the establishment af a medical review section. This

section review s and processes all medi cal reports which dri vers are applying for or holding, Class 1 to Class 4 licence s. A total af 7, 000 medical reports have been processed to date . The objective of this program is to ensure that persons are physic ally and menta

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	30-3-93
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	30th 3rd hansardpdf 93.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	9ec92c055aed2f7aae2b2b9a928a27101ad13ee9

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