Manitoba Hansard — 10 June 1977 (Sitting 80, 30th Legislature, 4th Session)

30-4-80

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

ISSN 0542-5492 FOURTH SESSION - THIRTIETH LEGISLATURE of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS 26 Elizabeth II Published under the authority of The Honourable Peter Fox Speaker VOL. XXIV No. 80 FRI DAY, JUNE 10, 1977 2:30 p.m. Printed by P.N. Crosbie - Queen's Printer for the Province of Manitoba

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirtieth Legislature Members, Constituencies·and Political Affiliation Name ADAM, A. R. (Pete) AXWORTHY, Lloyd BANMAN, Bob BARROW, Thomas BILTON, James H. BLAKE, David BOSTROM, Hon. Harvey BOYCE, Hon. J. R. (Bud) BROWN, Arnold BURTNIAK, Hon. Peter CHERNIACK, Saul, Q.C. CRAIK, Donald W. DEREWIANCHUK, Steve DESJARDINS, Hon. Laurent L. DILLEN, Ken DOERN, Hon. Russell EINARSON, Henry J. ENNS, Harry J. EVANS, Hon. Leonard S. FERGUSON, James R. FOX, Hon. Peter GOTTFRIED, John C. GRAHAM, Harry E. GREEN, Hon. Sidney, Q.C. HANUSC HAK, Hon.

Ben HENDERSON, George JENKI NS, William JOHANNSON, Wally JOHNS TON, J. Frank JOHNSTON, Gordon E. JORGENSON, Warner H. LYON, Sterling R., Q.C. MALINOWSKI, Rev. Donald McBRYDE, Hon. Ronald McGILL, Edward McGREGOR, Morris McKENZIE, J. Wally MILLER, Hon. Saul A. MINAKER, George MOUG, Arthur OSLAND, Les PATRICK, Steve PAULLEY, Hon. Russell PAWLEY, Hon. Howard PETURSSON, Philip M. SCHREYER, Hon. Edward SHAFRANSKY, Harry SHERMAN, L. R. (Bud) SPIVAK, Sidney, Q.C. STEEN, Warren TOUPIN, Hon. Rene TURNBULL, Hon. Ian URUSKI, Hon. Billie USKIW, Hon. Samuel WALDING, D. James WATT, J. Douglas WILSON, Robert G.

Electoral Division Ste. Rose Fort Rouge LaVerendrye Flin Flan Swan River Minnedosa Rupertsland Winnipeg Centre Rhineland Dauphin St. Johns Riel Emerson St. Boniface Thompson Elmwood Rock Lake Lakeside Brandon East Gladstone Kildonan Gimli Birtle-Russell lnkster Burrows Pembina Logan St. Matthews Sturgeon Creek Portage la Prairie Morris Souris-Killarney Point Douglas The Pas Brandon West Virden Roblin Seven-Oaks St. James Charleswood Churchill Assiniboia Transcona Selkirk Wellington Ross mere Radisson Fort Garry River Heights Crescentwood Springfield Osborne St. George Lac du Bonnet St.

Vital Arthur Wolseley Political Affiliation NOP Lib P.C. NOP P.C. P.C. NOP NOP P.C. NOP NOP P.C. NOP NOP NOP NOP P.C. P.C. NOP P.C. NOP NOP P.C. NOP NOP P.C. NOP NOP P.C. Lib P.C. P.C. NOP NOP P.C. P.C. P.C. NOP P.C. P.C. NOP Lib NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP P.C. P.C. P.C. NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP P.C. P.C.

THE LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMELY of MANITBA Friday, June 10, 1977 TIME: 2:30 p.m. OPENING PRAYER by Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER, Honourable Peter Fox (Kildonan): Before we proceed I should like to direct the attention of honourable members to the gallery where we have 50 students, Grades 5 and 6 standing, of the Luxton School. These students are under the direction of Mr. Long. This school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for St. Johns. We also have 17 students, Grade 5 standing, of the Forest Elementary School, under the direction of Mrs. Price and Mrs. Lawrie.

This school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Minnedosa. We have 15 students, Grade 11 standing, of the Louis Riel School, under the direction of Miss Bohemier. This school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for St. Boniface, the Minister of Health and Social Development. We have 12 students, Grade 9 standing, of the J.B . Mitchell School, under the direction of Mr. Thorne. This school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Charl eswood. On behalf of the honourable members, we welcome you here this afternoon.

Presenting Petitions; Read ing and Receiving Petitions. PRESENT ING REPORTS BY STAN DING AND SPECIAL COMM ITTEES MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Logan. MR. WILLIAM JENKINS: Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the fourth report of the Standing Committee on Law Amendments. MR. CLERK: Your committee met on June 9, 1977, and heard public representation with respect to Bills referred, as follows: No. 85 -

An Act to amend The City of Winnipeg Act

(2) D.C. Lennox, Solicitor, The City of Winnipeg. No. 57 -

An Act to amend The Manitoba Telephone Act Ronald L. Coke Allan Fitch Frank Burshtei n Your committee rose at 10:05 p.m. because of a lack of quorum. MR. JENKINS: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Thompson, that the report of the Committee be received. MOTION presented and carried. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Vital. MR. D. JAMES WALDING: Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the fifth report of the Standing Committee on Economic Development. MR.

CLERK: Your Committee met on May 26, 1977, to consider the Annual Reports of the Manitoba Development Corporation for the fiscal year whic h ended March 31, 1976. Your Committee examined the financial statements of the following corporations in which the Manitoba Development Corporation holds equity investments. William Clare (Manitoba) Ltd. - for the fiscal years end ing December 31, 1974 and December 31, 1975. Cybershare Ltd. - for the fiscal years ending March 31, 1976 and March 31, 1977. Dawn Plastics Ltd. - for the fiscal year ending May 31, 196 1976.

Dormond Industries Limited - for the year ending December 31, 1976. Electro-Knit Fabrics (Canada) Ltd. - for the fiscal year ended May 31, 1976. Flyer Industries Limited - for the fiscal years ending December 31, 1975 and December 31, 1976. Morden Fine Foods Ltd. - for the fiscal year en ding March 31, 1976. Saunders Aircraft Corporation Ltd. - for the fiscal year ending Spetember 30, 1975, and the period ending May 19, 1976. Sheller-Globe Manitoba Ltd. - for the fiscal year ending September 30, 1976. Tantalum Mining Corporation of Canada Limited - for the 3783

Friday, June 10, 1977 fiscal year ending December 31, 1976. Venture Manitoba Tours Ltd. - for the fiscal year ended October 31, 1976. Mr. S.J . Parsons, Chairman of the Board and General Manager of the Corporation, presented a general statement with respect to the affairs of the Manitoba Development Corporation. Having received all information requested by members of the Committee, the Annual Report of the Manitoba Development Corporation for the year ending March 31st, 1976, was adopted. MR. WALDING: Mr.

Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Gimli, that the report of the Committee be received. MOTION presented and carried. MINIS TERIAL STATEMENTS AND TAB LING OF REPOR TS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Tourism and Recreation. HONOURABLE BEN HANUSCHAK (Burrows): Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased to be able to announce today that approval has been given to the establishment of a Labour Education Centre for the Province of Manitoba.

This decision follows two years of discussions between officials of the Department of Continuing Education and Manpower and the Department of Labour, and officials of.the Manitoba Federat ion of Labour, and more recently, with representatives of the Universities of Manitoba, Winnipeg and Brandon.

I am particularly pleased that the Centre embodies a close and co-operative relationship between the two departments that I have mentioned - that is mine and the Department of Labour - the universities and the Manitoba Fede ration of Labour, and that it will, in fact, have a Board of Directors consisting of representatives from each of these bodies.

The Centre will serve as a focus for labour education in the province and, in addition, will have the following functions: organizing and co-ordinating credit cou rses and programs offered by the universities and colleges; setting up non-credit courses; training and seminars and conferences on an extension basis; providing a focus for research and study in such areas as labour history, labour relations, and labour laws; the creation of a labour library in conjunction with existing resources at the universities and colleges that will provide research material for both the Federat ion of Labour and other union groups in the province, and other students and scholars having an interest in this particular field.

The Centre, itself, will probably have an off-campus downtown location. It will consist of a central catalogue of research material and will be an organizing and co-ordinating centre for activities. We are not creating a new institution but we are establishing a centre that will give real support to the educational aspirations of organized and unorganized workers, at the same time providing a means by which the universities and colleges can both provide their experience and resources to labour education and also provide a greater range of opportunities to regular university students.

In fact, I look forward to the day when a student at any of the province's universities will be able to major in labour studies just as students can graduate in administrative studies. While details of funding have not been finalized, the budget for the centre in this fiscal year will be in the order of $250,000, $300,000.00. I might add that I will not be surprised if the Manitoba Labour Education Centre provided the focus for labour education and labour studies for the prairie region as a whole.

This is a particularly appropriate day to make such an announcement for yesterday and today, the Manitoba Association of Continual Education is holding a conference, that is attempting to define the needs in the area of continuing education for adults in this province. I believe very strongly that the Labour Education Centre by encouraging the sharing of resources and the co-operation of institutions will be viewed as a major step forward not only for one large group of people in the province, but as a model for the delivery of continuing education opportunities on a wider scale.

Thus, as Minister of Continuing Education and Manpower, I'm proud to announce this further accomplishment in our efforts to provide educational opportunities for all Manitobans. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR; L.R. (Bud) SHERMAN: Mr. Speaker, we welcome the Minister's announcement about the establishment of the new Labour Education Centre and will certainly watch with great interest, the courses and the development of the curricula at the centre and the future as it unfolds.

We hope that the Centre in its curricula will take a broad and universal approach to labour and labou r's role in society and in the economy and that there will be strong emphasis on the need for tripartite co operation, particularly bi- partisan co-operation between labour and management, but tripartite in that-it should involve some governement participation too, in order that harmonious industrial relations can be developed and maintained in the Province of Manitoba. And to that end, we believe that the Centre can potentially fulfil! a valuable service.

Our position at this time would be one of interest and welcome and an ongoing interest in the courses developed and the way they are applied, 3784

Friday, June 10, 1977 and the results in terms of labour and industrial harmony in the province. MR. SPEAKER: Any other Ministerial Statements or Tabling of Reports; Notices of Motion. INTRODU CTION OF BI LLS HONOURABLE SIDNEY GREEN, Minister of Mines (l nkster) , in the absence of the Attorney General, introduced Bill (No. 88) The Statute Law Amendment Act 1977(2). MOTION presented and carried. ORAL QU ESTI ONS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Sturgeon Creek. MR. J. FRANK JOHN STON: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is to the Minister of Finance and Minister of Urban Affairs.

The City of Winnipeg approved making application to the Canadian Transport Commission for the McGregor-Sherbrook overpass on May 4th, and they can't make this application until the government approves it. I wonder if the Minister could inform the House if and when they are going to approve that application. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Finance. HONOURABLE SAUL A. MILLER, (Seven Oaks): Mr. Speaker, the City of Winnipeg has - I want to be kind about this - has been playing around with the Sherbrook-McGregor overpass for a number of years.

A number of resolutions have been passed by City Council, then to be negated and new resolutions passed. We have received - and this is not the first time - a new concept and it has to get the approval of the province to go on to CTC. There are implications in it though, with regard to the land already acquired in the past. I want to assure myself that in fact that the money was spent for both by the City and the province has not been spent to no avail. There are implications in additional land requirements, meaning the dispossession of people from homes now existing.

These are matters that I cannot lightly pass by. They send them in when they're ready. I have been busy frankly, and I want staff to scrutinize this very carefully. I favour a Sherbrook-McGr egor overpass - !'ve said it a dozen times -b ut until we get something concrete, that I know the city will stick with, then I'm not going to rush into something blindly. There are too many millions of dollars at stake. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Birtle-Russell. MR. HARRY E. GRAHAM: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the First Minister. I would like to ask the First Minister if he has received the report of Mr.

Elswood Bole, investigating the expropriation of land in St. Lazare? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HONO URABLE EDWARD SCHREYER, (Rossmere): Yes, Mr. Speaker, I have received a report and I hope to have the opportunity to discuss it with him in a matter of a short period of time. MR. GRAHAM: I take if from the First Minister's reply that no definite action has been taken as yet then. MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, I'm hopeful that it will be possible to do so pursuant to the report, but I would like the opportunity to discuss it with Mr. Bole, before settling on a definitive course of action. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Assiniboia. MR. STEVE PATRICK: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister for Continuing Education.

In reference to his statement that he just made to the House in respect to the establishment of the labour relations courses, can the Minister indicate, will this also involve a research centre for management and for other people that would like to get ... the public as well, so that it would act as an institute of industrial relations having information for all sectors ... industry as well, so that there would be better understanding and better relationship between management and labour? . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister. MR. HANUSC HAK: Yes, Mr. Speaker.

The programs to be offered by the Labour Education Centre will be open to all - to those who would wish to avail themselves of the services offered by it. MR. PATRICK: A supplementary, according to the statement, it doesn't state that in his news release today. Would it be similar as the Institute for Industrial Relations that's been in operation for several years in Toronto, and in Montreal and the other centres? MR. HANUSC HAK: Mr.

Speaker, yes we have taken a very close look at what is in operation in Toronto and at various other places on the North American continent, and it is our intention and our hope that that which is contained with in the programs offered there, that is of relevance and could be applied in our own campuses, that will happen.

And it is also our hope that we will be able to improve upon the labour ed ucation courses that are being offered elsewhere, and thus and thereby, to offer a course that would be most meaningful and relevant to the needs of the people of the Province of Manitoba insofar as labour education needs are concerned. MR. PATRICK: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Has the management or personnel organizations been involved in having any input into establishing the centre? MR. HANUSC HAK: Not to any great extent at this point in time, Mr. Speaker, but I would want to 3785

Friday, June 10, 1977 indic.ate to you that this is an education program and we've had close consultation with the three universities of the Province of Manitoba, namely the universities of Manitoba, Winnipeg and Brandon. They are most anxious to involve themselves in the deliv ery of this type of prograrrr,much to the same extent as at least one of the universities is involved in the del ivery of a course in administrative studies. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Assiniboia, a final question. MR. PATRICK: A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker.

I believe that the other institutes of industrial relations with considerable experience behind, have had management and personnel management people involved in establishing such centres. My last question to the Minister at this time is where is the money raised? Where is the budget? Does the total amount included in his statement come from the government department or is there any sharing with anybody or is the government putting up the total amount of the money? Where is it coming from? MR.

HANUSCHAK: It is hoped that whatever contribution there is, whatever support there is from the public purse will come from both provincial and federal sources. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. HARRY J. ENNS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I di rect a question or perhaps better said, "a request to the Minister of Agriculture." I understand the Minister is considering some amendments to Bill 56, The Farm Lands Protection Act.

I am wondering whether or not it would be possible to have some of those amendments made available to members opposite, say, Monday morning, as they are considering other amendments being brought forward in other major bills, such as the family law bill, 61. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister for Agriculture. HONOURABLE SAMUEL USKIW (Lac du Bonnet): Mr. Speaker, it might be possible by mid-day Monday, but certainly it will be impossible by Monday morning. We have not yet assembled them ourselves. I can't see the possibility, but hopefully by noon Monday we might be able to do it. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MR. LLOYD AX.WORTHY: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the First Minister. I asked yesterday what the position of the Provincial Government was going to be in reference to the Manitoba Court of Appeal hearing on the case dealing with French language rights in Manitoba. Could he indicate whether in fact anybody representing the Government of Manitoba attended those hearings this morning, and if so, what intervention did they take? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Fi rst Minister. MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, I said I would take the matter as notice.

I am not in a position to answer today. MR. AXWORTHY: Mr. Speaker, when the Minister took the question as notice, I assumed that we would know by the time that the action was taken. Was it not true that the court hearing was held this morning, and therefore can the Minister not report on what action the government has taken, or if they have entered any notion into the court that they plan to int ervene in the case. MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, the Crown has had a solicitor at the hearing. I don't believe that the Crown in the right of the province is a direct party to the actual litigation.

Certainly my understanding is that the Department of the Attorney-General is neither the appellant nor the defendant in the matter nor the respondent, that the Government of Canada has interceded. We have a solicitor present as well. MR. AXWORTHY: Mr. Speaker, that is what I wanted to ask the Minister.

In view of the intercession by the Federal Government indicating that they are interested in the case, and as I understand it, placing their intention to intervene so that they would be able to take action in the Supreme Court if it was necessary, does the lack of intercession on the part of the Provincial Government mean that it is prevented now from taking any further action in the court? some two or three relatively major public works construction projects whic h can be moved forward, and they are in the final stages of design. Tenders can be called relatively soon.

That is a concrete response to mean that it is prevented now from taking any further action in the court? MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, it does not preclude the province being before the Supreme Court, if and when that becomes relevant. We are represented there now, and I think that answers my honourable friend's question. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Assiniboia. MR. PATRICK: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the First Minister.

In view of the serious drop in the construction industry in the first five months of this year, as compared to last year - I believe it is somewhere around thi rteen percent - and in view of the still very high unemployment, is the government prepared to meet with the construction industry or will they be taking some action to see that there is some increase in the construction industry from here until the end of the year? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR. SCHREYER: Mr.

Speaker, that is precisely what relates to the announcement of the up-to $30-million in additional measures and works, and within that amount there are, as I have indicated 3786

Friday, June 10, 1977 before, some two or three relatively major public works construction projects whi ch can be moved forward , and they are in the final stages of design. Tenders can be called relatively soon. That is a concrete response to the problem. Beyond that, much of the matter has to do with the general economic circumstances obtaining in Canada as a whole. We do not presume that we can solve those alone. MR. PATRICK: Mr. Speaker, I believ13 the serious reduction in the construction in Winnipeg was in the housing construction, the largest percentage.

Is the gove rnment prepared, or would it be prepared, to consider some action to see if that could be stimulated in some way? MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, much of the programming that relates to the extra effort has to do with construction and major renovation, not only insofar as major institutional and public works construction is concerned, but also with respect to health care institutions, additional construction of housing, public housing, and senior citizen . housing, moving forward as much as possible, of housing, moving forward as much as possible, of health care, hospital construction and/or renovation.

And also, we are encouraging the construction of some of the proposed personal care homes, trying to advance the date of commencement of construction of those as well. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Assiniboia. MR. PATRICK: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. When will that action come, say, into full operation? Apparently it isn't now because we're underway to decreas ing it at the present time. And has the Minister, or the government given any consideration to the private housing which is also down at the present time? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR. SCHREYER: Well Mr.

Speaker, I am not sure I understand my honourable friend, if it's private construction then it's private construction. Is my honourable friend suggesting that the Crown should be making substantial or significant financial contributions or what? In which case, by defi nition, it wouldn't be private sector construction. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for La Verendrye. MR. BOB BANMAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I direct my question to the Minister of Tourism and I would ask him if he could inform the House as to what the projected operating cost losses for Venture Tours will be this year? MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Tourism and Recreation. MR. HANUSCHAK: Mr. Speaker, I believe the honourable member either was, or if he wasn't, he had the opportunity to attend a Committee meeting this morning, at whic h time, he would have been in a position to obtain the answer to this question. MR. BANMAN: I wonder if the Minister could confirm that last year's operating deficit of $262,000 was paid for by the Department of To urism. MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the day. The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MR. LLOYD AXWORTHY: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Consumer Affairs.

In the past, a question has been asked of him whether the Department or Bureau of Consumer Affairs was examining sales practices of the operators in the field of fire protection safety equipment. I was wondering if he has been able to dete rmine whether the Consumer Bureau has now investigated the different sales practices that those firms are presently employing. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs. HONOU RABLE RENE TOUPIN (Springfie ld): Yes, Mr. Speaker, we've launched such a study on a voluntary basis.

I can't give a report as of today, but I know that we've had some response from quite a few business people in the province, mainly in the City of Winnipeg, and I'll be bringing a report forward . MR. AXWORTHY: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Could the Minister, in that report, determine whether in fact the Consumer Affairs Bureau has not been prepared to look at evidence that has been supplied to it by different parties involved , concerning the high pressured sales tactics that are being employed by these firms? MR. TOUPIN: Well, again, Mr.

Seaker, these are things that the Consumer Bureau deals with on a daily basis, leaving aside the special study that the honou rable member indicated in his first question. MR. AXWORTHY: Well, a supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Could the Minister undertake to determine whether there is high pressured tactics being used by these companies in the sales of their products, and if so, would they be prepared to rescind thei r licences. MR. TOUPIN: Mr.

Speaker, I have been informed , not having received notice of the question, but I still have been informed by the Consumers Protection Bureau that we've had 12 such reports made to us, all have been checked and have not indicated the reason to suspend licences. MR. SPEAKER: The Honou rable First Minister. MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, yesterday, the Honourable Member for Assiniboia asked whether there were any plans with respect to the possible construction of coal-burning thermo plant capacity 3787

Friday, June 10, 1977 in addition to what already exists, and I indicated thatthat was not likely to be the case. I would like to indicate clearly to the'h onourable member that that is emphatically not in the plans because it is obvious that coal-burning thermal capacity is not a preferred alternative. To the extent that we have it we must use it now, we use it, but to add additional coal-burning capacity is definitely not advisable nor desirable. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for La Verendrye. MR. BOB BANMAN: Mr.

Speaker, I direct my question to the Minister of Tourism and would ask - him, now that he received the answer from the Minister of Mines, if he could inform the House if the deficit of $262,000 was indeed paid for by the Department of Tourism? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Tourism, Recreation ... Order please. The Honourable First Minister state his point of order. MR. SCHREYER: I believe there is a rule, Mr. Speaker, with respect to the question period and with respect to the kind of sarcasm that was used by the Member for La Verendrye.

I can assure my honourable friend, the Member for La Verendrye, that if sarcasm was called for in his direction, there would be no problem. MR. SPEAKER: The point is well taken. The Honourable Minister of Mines. Order please. MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Order please. The Honourable House leader. MR. GREEN: I'm sorry, Mr. Speaker, that I appear to have been the initiator of what is an unnecessary hostility between honourable members on both sides.

For the honourable member's information and for the information of all of the House, the note that I gave to the Minister of Tourism said that they were advised this morning that the boat has been transferred to be dealt with by Tourism. It did not tell him where the money came from. I can't remember. There was an O.C. which gave them money. But the Committee was advised this morning that the boat ... The note said, "Keep it cool, I don't want a division." MR. GREEN: The Honourable Member for La Verendrye. MR. BANMAN: Mr.

Speaker, I wonder if the Minister of Tourism could confirm that the operating defi cit of $262,000 was paid for by the Department of Tourism? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Tourism. MR. HANUSCHAK: Mr. Speaker, it may or it may not have been. I will have to check back. A payment of this kind likely would have been made by way of Order-in-Council and I wo uld have to check back over the proceedings of Cabinet over the last, not 12-month period, but I would suspect a 14-month period, if the honourable member is referring to something which had transpired during the last fiscal year. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Ste. Rose. MR. A. R. (Pete) ADAM: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a question to the First Minister and I would ask him if it is correct, the statements made by Tom Ellison that the Premier is throttling the check-off plan on beef? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, there is communication on the record with respect to a proposed check-off plan and our response to it is also on the record. Nothing has changed in that regard. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. LYON: Mr. Speaker, a question to the Minister of Mines.

Could the Minister advise if he has now a more definitive date from the International Joint Commission as to when they will be bringing down their final report with respect to the Garrison Diversion? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Mines. MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, my last recollection is that sometime in the month of July. Just so that there is no misunderstanding, because there has been communicated to my office various misunderstandings, the International Joint Commission will be dealing with the proposal that is before it.

They do not take cognizance of any possible changes as between the President and Congress. They are dealing with the proposal that is before it which includes the Garrison Diversion as contemplated at the time that the reference was made. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Wolseley. MR. ROBERT G. WILSON: Now that the Attorney-General is here, I have a question for him. Several months ago I documented concerns from a large number of citizens led by Mrs. Haverty. - (Interjection}- By Mrs. Haverty. I documented some concerns a couple of months ago.

Could the Minister confirm that despite the complaints and 23 Crown witnesses, Apollo TV and Delphi TV were only fined $200 at this expensive trial? MR. SPEAKER: The Honou rable Attorney-General. HONOURABLE HOWARD PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, I don't think it's my place nor is it the Honourable Member for Wolseley's place to enter into a debate in respect to any handing down of any judg ment at this point. I don't know what the outcome of this particular case is. I haven't received the advice that the Honourable Member for Wolseley obviously has. It would be a matter of public 3788

Friday, June 10, 1977 record as to the amount of the fine. MR. WILSON: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Would the Minister confirm that a grocer staying open on Sunday might pay up to a $5,000 fine? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR. SHERMAN: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Honourable Minister for Continuing Education and Manpower with respect to the Labour Education Centre being set up and appointments to the faculty. Is there any conside ration or planning being directed towards a situation that would find the present "Dean of the Legislature" becoming the dean of the faculty? MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Tourism and Recreation. MR. HANUSCHAK: Mr. Speaker, I wish to thank the honourable member for the suggesti on. It's an excellent one. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. Order please. The Honourable Minister wishes ... MR. HANUSCHAK: And I'm quite certain that the universities would want to take that under advisement too. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR. SHERMAN: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. That being the case, where will the Minister be looking for the rest of his faculty? MR. HANUS CHAK: Mr.

Speaker, I'm quite certain that the Labour Education Centre would want to present a very balanced point of view and it may be that whoever is appointed to head this particular centre may want to call upon whatever assistance and contribution the Honourable Member for Fort Garry would be able to make. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Minnedosa. MR. DAVID BLAKE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

My question is to the Minister Responsible for Consumer and Corporate Affairs and it follows a question I asked the other day about the wide disparity in the price paid to fishermen for pickerel and the price in the retail stores. He indicated at that time he had no intention of launching an investigation. I wonder if he has seen the results of the investigation that was demanded by the Honourable the Minister of Renewable Resources a year ago and if he has seen it, is he satisfied that the explanations given by the Freshwater Fish Corporation are satisfactory to him? MR.

SP EAKER: The Honourable Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs. HONOURABLE RENE TOUPIN: No, Mr. Speaker, I am sorry to say that I haven't seen it. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Minnedosa. MR. BLAKE: Yes, I would redi rect the question then, Mr. Speaker, to the Honourable Minister for Renewable Resources, and ask him what the results of the investigation that he demanded from the corporation were? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister for Renewable Resources. HONO URABLE HARVEY BOSTROM (Rupertsland): Mr. Speaker, I have made many requests to the Freshwater Fish Marketing Corporation for information.

There was no specific research or study done on that particular subject. We had asked for a breakd own of certain costs in the corporation and as I have indicated before in this House, Mr. Speaker, we are not completely satisfied with all of the costs that are attributed to the processing and marketing of the fresh water fish and it is one of the ongoing concerns which we will be taking up with the Federal department concerned. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Minnedosa. MR. BLAKE: Mr.

Speaker, I could refer to it in Hansard wher e the Minister indicated on April 9, 1976, on Page 2244, where he told the Committee, "We have demanded such an investigation and we have demanded that they come up with a breakdown of the cost and to tighten up their machinery in that corporation so as to bring the better final price to the fisher men." MR. SPEAKER: Order pl ease. Does the honourable member have a question? MR. BL AKE: Yes, I'm just asking the Minister if he did get the results, if that information was provided to him?

Because it was indicated that the high cost, the capital cost of the plant was the reason the fishermen were receiving a low price, because they were paying for the plant. I just wondered if he did get the results of that investigation and was he satisfied that the prices being paid to the fishermen are satisfactory and what steps has he taken to remove that capital cost from the shoulders of fishermen ? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister. MR. BOSTROM: Mr. Speaker, as I indicated last week, I believe, when the honourable member asked me a similar question, we are not satisfied.

We are not satisfied that such a high proportion of the final price of the fish is used up in the processing and marketing part of the operation. We have demanded that the corporation sharpen its pencils and come up with a high er proportion of the final price as payment to the fishermen. This year, I'm informed by the corporation that they have increased that final price to fishermen , to 60 percent of the final price

whereas it was somewhere in the forties last year. 3789

Friday, June 10, 1977 MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Minnedosa. Final question. MR. BLAKE: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. I wonder if the Minister can indicate to the House what steps have been taken or what results have been in removing the capital cost of that from the fishermen's responsibility? MR. BOSTROM: Well, Mr. Speaker, perhaps the honourable member was not here last week when I replied to a similar question that this request was made of the Federal Government, that they write off the capital cost of the plant in Transcona. This so far has not been answered positively by the . federal Government.

We are still hopeful that we will get that kind ofresponse from them. In fact, we are negotiating with them now for a number of changes in the corporation and the changes that we foresee may include that kind of commitment from them. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. STERLING R. LYON, (Souris-Killarney): Mr. Speaker, a supplementary to the Minister of Resources relating to the same matter.

Would the Minister of Resources then give favourable consideration to the submissions that are made from time to time by intermedi aries -t hird parties who wish to buy fish from the fishermen and sell them locally without the intervention of the Marketing Board in order that the people of Manitoba could have cheaper fresh pickerel fillets which they dearly want and are being kept from getting by the Fish Marketing Board? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. ENNS: Well, Mr. Speaker, just to give the Minister an opportunity to think about the answer.

My question to the Minister is about his arithmetic. The 65 cents that the primary producer gets, I don't believe is 60 percent of the $4.12 that the retail price for pickerel is being charged at right now. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister. · MR. BOSTROM: I can't answer for the markup in the retail stores of Winnipeg. What I'm talking about, Mr.

Speaker, is the percentage of the final price which the corporation receives for the fish which they sell and the corporation has a mandate under the agreement that was signed between the ···province and the corporation in 1969 before this government was elactedto market that catch and to get the best possible price for that catch. And, if that means that the people of Manitoba have to pay a high price for the catch, that is part of the agreement that was sig ned. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. ENNS: Mr. Speaker, then I direct a question to the Minister of Corporate.and Consumer Affairs.

Apparently nobody is disputing that price disparity. Will the Minister of Corporate and Consumer Affairs not reconsider his answer and in fact institute an investigation of sorts? We investigate when the price of bread goes up 2 cents a loaf, the price of milk goes up 4 cents , and we have a massive spread between what the Minister has indicated the primary producer receives and what the retail price is. Would the Minister consider investigating? MR. BOSTRO M: ... the means by which the consumer and the fishermen may get together to get the best possible arrangement.

There is a means by which the fisher man can market his catch directly on the market. There is a way he can sell directly to the consumer. The consumer can buy directly from the fishermen on the lake and in that way, Mr. Speaker, the fishermen can get the best price he can bargain for and the consumer can make the best arrangements that he can bargain for. ORD ERS OF THE DAY ORDER S FOR RETURN The following Orders for Return were accepted as read, with qualification. ORDERS FOR RETURNS MR. SPEAKEIR: The Honourable Member for Wolseley. ORDER NO. 43: On Motion of Mr. Wilson Order for Return.

THAT an Order of the House do issue for a return showi ng the following information concerning the Manitoba Youth Centr e: 1. The number of full-time and part-time employees hired for the year 1975-76. 2. The number of full-time and part-time employees who left during the year 1975-76. 3. The number of full-time and part-time employees hired for the year 1976-77. 4:The number of full-time and part-time employees who left during the year 1976-77. ORDER No. 44: On Motion of Mr. Wilson Order for Return.

THAT an Order of the House do issue for a return showi ng the following information concerning the Manitoba Youth Centr e: 1. The total cost of replacement of damaged or destroyed furniture, sinks, mattresses, etc., for the year 1975- 76. 2.cThe total cost of replacement of damaged or destroyed furniture, sinks, mattresses, etc., for the year 1976-77. 3790

Friday, June 10, 1977 3. The total number of juveniles reported or charged with drug possession or alcohol offences for the year 1975-76. 4. The total number of juveniles reported or charged with drug possession or alcohol offenses for the year 1976-77. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for La Verend rye. ORDER NO. 45: On Motion of Mr. Banman Order for Return.

THAT an Order of the House do issue for a return showing the following information with respect to the position of Director, Transportation and Distribution Systems, Manitoba Transportation Economics Council Secretariat being an agency affiliated with the Department of Industry and Commerce. 1. What is the date of the appointment of the director who is holding this position at present. 2. What is the Civil Service competition number and the date at which the present director became a candidate for this position. 3.

What is the date at which the present director was appointed to a permanent civil service position after assuming responsibility for this position. 4. How many years of experience in the field of transportation economics did the present di rector have at the time of the appointment. 5. How many years of experience in directing research activities and program development to improve transportation and distribution industry services did the present director have at the time of the appointment. 6.

How many years of experience in developing and providing transportation policy advice, did the present director have at the time of the appointment. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. ORDER NO. 46: On Motion of Mr. Sherman Order for Return. THAT an Order of the House do issue for a return showi ng the number of T4A slips (statement of remuneration paid) issued by the Department of Finance for the year 1976, as required by Revenue Canada. ORDER NO. 47: On Motion of Mr. Sherman Order for Return. THAT an Order of the House do issue for a return showing the following information: 1.

What has been the number of staff appointments made by the Department of Agriculture under

Section 3(1) of the amended Civil Service Act in the period beginning March 1st, 1976, and ending April 30th, 1977. 2. The name of each person appointed. 3. The contractual terms of each person appointed. 4. The salary of each employee. 5. The date of each appointment. 6. The educational and professional qualifications of each. 7. The number and names of members of this group who have since moved into the permanent Civil Service. ORDER NO. 48: On Motion of Mr. Sherman Order for Return. THAT an Order of the House do issue for a return showing the following information: 1. What has been the number of staff appointments made by the Department of Attorney-General under

Section 3(1 ) of the amended Civil Service Act in the period beginning March 1st, 1976 and ending April 30th, 1977. 2. The name of each person appointed. 3. The contractual terms of each person appointed. 4. The salary of each employee. 5. The date of each appointment. 6. The educational and professional qualifications of each. 7. The number and names of members of this group who have since moved into the permanent Civil Service. ORDER NO. 49: On Motion of Mr. Sherman Order for Return. THAT an Order of the Ho use do issue for a return, showing the following inf ormation: 1. What has been the number of staff appointments made by the Department of Civil Service under

Section 3(1 ) of the amended Civil Service Act in the period beginning March 1st, 1976, and ending April 30th, 1977. 2. The name of each person appointed. 3. The contractual terms of each person appointed. 3791

Friday, June 10, 1977 4. The salary of each employee. 5. The date of each appointment. 6. The educational and professional qualifications of each. 7. The number and names of members of this group who have since moved into the permanent Civil Service. ORDER NO. 50: On Motion of Mr. Sherman Order for Return. THAT an Order of the House do issue for a return showing the following information: 1. What has been the number of staff appointments made by the Department of Continuing Education and Manpower under

Section 3(1) of the amended Civil Service Act in the period beginning March 1st, 1976, and ending April 30th, 1977. 2. The name of each person appointed. 3. The contractual terms of each person appointed. 4. The salary of each employee. 5. The date of each appointment. 6. The educational and professional qualifications of each. 7. The number and names of members of this group who have since moved into the permanent Civil Service. ORDER NO. 51: On Motion of Mr. Sherman Order for Return. THAT an Order of the House do issue for a return showing the following information: 1. What has been the number of staff appointments made by the Department of Consumer, Corporate and Internal Services under

Section 3(1) of the amended Civil Service Act in the period beginning March 1st, 1976, and ending April 30th, 1977. 2. The name of each person appointed. 3. The contractual terms of each person appointed. 4. The salary of each employee. 5. The date of each appointment. 6. The educational and professional qualifications of each. 7. The number and names of members of this group who have since moved into the permanent Civil Service. ORDER NO. 52: On Motion of Mr. Sherman Order for Return. THAT an Order of the House do issue for a return showing the following information: 1. What has been the number of staff appointments made by the Department of Co-operative Development under

Section 3(1) of the amended Civil Service Act in the period beginning March 1st, 1976, and ending April 30th, 1977. 2. The name of each person appointed. 3. The contractual terms of each person appointed. 4. The salary of each employee. 5. The date of each appointment. 6. The educational and professional qualifications of each. 7. The number and names of members of this group who have since moved into the permanent Civil Service. ORDER NO. 53: On Motion of Mr. Sherman Order for Return. THAT an Order of the House do issue for a return showing the following information: 1. What has been the number of staff appointments made by the Department of Ed ucation under

Section 3(1) of the amended Civil Service Act in the period beginning March 1st, 1976, and ending April 30th, 1977. 2. The name of each person appointed. 3. The contractual terms of each person appointed. 4. The salary of each employee. 5. The date of each appointment. 6. The educational and pr ofessional qualifications of each. 7. The number and names of members of this group who have since moved into the permanent Civil Service. ORDER NO. 54: On Motion of Mr. Sherman Order for Return. THAT an Order of the House do issue for a return showing the following information: 1. What has been the number of staff appointments made by the Department of Executive Council Sunder

Section 3(1) of the amended Civil Service Act in the period beginning March 1st, 1976, and ending April 30th, 1977. 3792

Friday, June 10, 1977 2. The name of each person appointed. 3. The contractual terms of each person appointed. 4. The salary of each employee. 5. The date of each appointment. 6. The educational and professional qualifications of each. 7. The number and names of members of this group who have since moved into the permanent Civil Service. ORDER NO. 55: On Motion of Mr. Sherman Order for Return. THAT an Order of the House do issue for a return showi ng the following information: 1. What has been the number of staff appointments made by the Department of Finance under

Section 3(1) of the amended Civil Service Act in the period beginning March 1st, 1976, and ending April 30th, 1977. 2. The name of each person appointed. 3. The contractual terms of each person appointed. 4. The salary of each employee. 5. The date of each appointment. 6. The educational and professional qualifications of each. 7. The number and names of members of this group who have since moved into the permanent Civil Service. ORDER NO. 56: On Motion of Mr. Sherman Order for Return. THAT an Order of the House do issue for a return showing the following information: 1. What has been the number of staff appointments made by the Department of Health and Social Development under

Section 3(1) of the amended Civil Service Act in the period beginning March 1 st, 1976, and ending April 30th, 1977. 2. The name of each person appointed. 3. The contractual terms of each person appointed. 4. The salary of each employee. 5. The date of each appointment. 6. The educational and professional qualifications of each. 7. The number and names of members of this group who have since moved into the permanent Civil Service. ORDER NO. 57: On Motion of Mr. Sherman Order for Return . THAT an Order of the House do issue for a return showi ng the following information: 1. What has been the number of staff appointments made by the Department of Highw ays under

Section 3(1) of the amended Civil Service Act in the period beginning March 1st, 1976, and ending April 30th, 1977. 2. The name of each person appointed. 3. The contractual terms of each person appointed. 4. The salary of each employee. 5. The date of each appointment. 6. The educational and professional qualifications of each. 7. The number and names of members of this group who have since moved into the permanent Civil Service. ORDER NO. 58: On Motion of Mr. Sherman Order for Return. THAT an Order of the House do issue for a return showi ng the following information: 1. What has been the number of staff appointments made by the Department of Industry and Commerce under

Section 3(1 ) of the amended Civil Service Ait in the period beginning March 1st, 1976, and ending April 30th, 1977. 2. The name of each person appointed. 3. The contractual terms of each person appointed. 4. The salary of each employee. 5. The date of each appointment. 6. The ed ucational and professional qualifications of each. 7. The number and names of members of this group who have since moved into the permanent Civil Service. ORDER NO. 59: On Motion of Mr. Sherman Order for Return. THAT an Order of the House do issue for a return showi ng the following information: 1. What has been the number of staff appointments made by the Department of Labour under 3793

Friday, June 10, 1977

Section 3(1) of the amended Civil Service Act in the period beginning March 1st, 297 1976, and ending April 30th, 1977. 2. The name of each person appointed. 3. The contractual terms of each person appointed. 4. The salary of each employee. 5. The date of each appointment. 6. The educational and professional qualifications of ea ch. 7. The number and names of members of this group who have since moved into the permanent Civil Service. ORDER NO. 60: On Motion of Mr. Sherman Order for Return. THAT an Order of the House do issue for a return showing the following information: 1. What has been the number of staff appointments made by the Department of Legislation under

Section 3(1) of the amended Civil Service Act in the period beginning March 1st, 1976, and end ing April 30th, 1977. 2. The name of each person appointed. 3: The contractual terms of each person appointed. 4. The salary of each employee. 5. The date of each appointment. 6. The educational and professional qualifications of each. 7. The number and names of members of this group who have since moved into the permanent Civil Service. · ORDER NO. 61: On Motion of Mr. Sherman Order for Return. THAT an Order of the House do issue for a return sMowing the following information: ' ,, 1.

What has been the number of staff appointments made by the Department of Mines, Resources and Environmental Management under

Section 3(1 ) of the amended Civil Service Act in the period beginning March 1st, 1976, and ending April 30th, 1977. 2. The name of each person appointed. 3. The contractual terms of each person appointed. 4. The salary of each employee. 5. The date of each appointment. 6. The educational and professional equalitications of each. 7. The number and names of members of this group who have since moved into the permanent Civil Service. ORDER NO. 62: On Motion of Mr. Sherman Order tor Return. THAT an Order of the House do issue tor a return showing the following information: 1. What has been the number of staff appointments made by the Department of Municipal Affairs under

Section 3(1) of the amended Civil Service Act in the period begi nning March 1st, 1976, and ending April 30th, 1977. 2. The name of each person appointed. 3. The contractual terms of each person appointed. 4. The salary of each employee. 5. The date of each appointment. 6. The educational and professional qualifications of each. 7. The number and names of members of this group who ha ve since moved into the permanent Civil Service. ORDER NO. 63: On Motion of Mr. Sheman Order for Return. THAT an Order of the House do issue for a return showi ng the following information: 1. What has been the number pJ staff appointments made by the Department of Northern Affairs under

Section 3(1) of the amend�d Civil Service Act in the period beginning March 1st, 1976, and ending April 30th, 2977 1977. 2. The name of each person appointed. 3. The contractual terms of each person appointed. 4. The salary of each employee. 5. The date of each appointment. 6. The educational and pr ofessional qualifications of each. 7. The number and names of members of this group who have since moved into the permanent Civil Service. ORDER NO. 64: On Motion of Mr. Sherman Order for Return. 3794

Friday, June 10, 1977 THAT an Order of the House do issue for a return showi ng the following information __ _ 1. What has been the number of staff appointments made by the Department of Public Works under

Section 3(1) of the amended Civil Service Act in the period begi nning March 1st, 1976, and ending April 30th, 1977. 2. The name of each person appointed. 3. The contractual terms of each person appointed. 4. The salar y of each employee. 5. The date of each appointment. 6. The educational and professional qualifications of each. 7. The number and names of members of this group who have since moved into the permanent Civil Service. ORDER NO. 65: On Motion of Mr. Sherman Order for Return. THAT an Order of the House do issue for a return show ing the following information: 1. What has been the number of staff appointments made by the Department of Tourism, Recreation and Cultural Affairs under

Section 3(1 ) of the amended Civil Service Act in the period beginning March 1st, 1976, and ending April 30th, 1977. 2. The name of each person appointed. 3. The contractual terms of each person appointed. 4. The sal ary of each employee. 5. The date of each appointment. 6. The educatio nal and professional qualifications of each. 7. The number and names of members of this group who have since moved into the permanent Civil Service. ORDER NO. 66: On Motion of Mr. Sherman Order for Return. THAT an Order of the House do issue for a return showi ng the following information: 1. What has been the number of staff appointments made by the Department of Urban Affairs under

Section 3(1 ) of the amended Civil Service Act in the period begi nning March 1st, 1976, and ending April 30th, 1977. 2. The name of each person appointed. 3. The contractual terms of each person appointed. 4. The salary of each employee. 5. The date of each appointment. 6. The educational and professional qualifications of each. 7. The number and names of members of this group who have since moved into the permanent Civil Service. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for La Verend rye. ORDER NO. 67: On Motion of Mr. Banman Order for Return.

THAT an Order of the House do issue for a return showing the following information with respect to the President and Chief Executive Officer of Flyer Industries Ltd., the latter being a company owned by the Manitoba Development Corporation. 1. What is the per diem rate at which the President and Ch ief Executive is being remunerated at present. 2. Is this remuneration bei ng paid to him in his own name or is it paid to him in the name of a company of which he is the owner. 3. What was the President's "Province of Residence" on: (

a) December 31, 1974; (

b) December 31, 1975; (

c) December 31, 1976. 4. What is the total amount of living cost expenses that have been paid to either the President, or a company of wh ich he is the owner, in the period commencing with his appointment and ending May 31, 1977. 5. How much of the total amount of living cost expenses were accounted for by: (

a) accommodation; (

b) meals; (

c) travel. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable House Leader. MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if with the consent of all of the honourable members, we can have all of the se Orders for Return accepted as read. There is a qualification of course in the Add ress for Papers that would apply to any solicitor client relationship and would apply to the governmental 3795

Friday, June 10, 1977 correspqndences .. betlllieen the-two gove rnments. With respect to the. others, I believe that we are prepared to accept them all. I might say that with regard to the last one, Mr. Speaker, I don't wish it to be considered a precedence because I don't believe an Order for Return should be answered as to the commercial operations generally of a corporation. But, with regard to this particular question we are prepared to give the information and that is certainly a special arrangement. MR. SPEAKER: Is that procedure agreeable? The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR.

LYON: On the reservations made by the House Leader, could he specify the Add resses for Papers for wh ich those reservations apply and do I read him aright that they are the usual ones with respect to gaining authority from the other jurisdiction number one, and could he amplify on solicitor-client relationship that he seems to be sensitive about? MR. GREEN: Well, Mr.

Speaker, I am advised that if there is a correspondence where there is a privilege between the lawyer and the client, maybe the government and the client - the government may be the client - and that's with regard to the one Address for Papers - that's the Address for Papers requested by the Member for Birtle-Russel I -t hat we would reserve for the usual reservation as requested between the two governments and in the event that there is a client- counsel relationship that any correspondence of that nature would also be subject to the desire of the client to maintain that relationship. MR.

SPEAKER: Is it agreeable? So Ordered. MOTION OF CONDOLENC E MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, pursuant to verbal notice wh ich I gave in this House a couple of days ago, I would like to proceed with the condolence motion. Mr. Speaker, three weeks ago, on the passing of the late Arthur Wright who was for a period of eight years a member of this Assembly. The late Arthur Wright was a person who was known to many - in this Chamber.

He was a person who was obviously held in high esteem-by all those who knew him - certainly held in high esteem by the residents of the municipality and then the City of West Kildonan.

For a period of forty-four years he worked with the Canadian National Railways and I suspect, Sir, that his record of employment there was indicative of the man in the sense of giving long and faithful service to the Canadian National Railways, wh ich was the same kind of service that he gave to the people of West Kil do nan for a time as the councillor, for a time as the mayor, for a time as a member of the Legislature for that district. He was a person whom I knew very well and could best describe as one who was never guilty of over-statement or exaggerati on.

He was one who although in politics was not given to discussion in broad generalities and exaggerat ion, but rather one who felt that the important way to proceed was to attempt to deal with specifics of every given concrete situation. He was not only distrustful of over statement in himself but in others, and who successfully avoided the temptation to speak in glowing generalities.

Accordingly, it is easy to understand why he was held in high esteem because he was quite capable of and desirous of giving his time and attention to the detai ls of problems that faced people, not only as a MLA, but in more recent years as executive assistant to my colleague, the Minister of Labour. I know personally that he spent a great deal of time dealing with case problems of those people who in real terms, or in sincerely felt terms thought that they were agg rieved by one or another administrative proced ure or decision of Workmen's Compensation Board or whatever.

Needless to say, he was not able to perform miracles, but he was able to ensure that citizens who had those grievances to exp ress, did receive a genuine analysis of all of the pertinent facts surrounding their problem, real or imagined. And so, those others who knew him I'm confident would want to summarize their recollection of him and his contribution here in much the same terms. Even though my remarks are brief, Mr.

Speaker, it should not in any way be interpreted to mean that I felt that anyth ing other than that the late Arthur Wright was an uncommonly conscientious and dedi cated public servant in whatever his capacity.

Accordingly I should like to move, seconded by the Honourable the Member for Seven Oaks, the Minister of Finance, that this House convey to the family of the late Arthur Wright , who served as a member of this Assembly, its sincere sympathy in their bereavement and its appreciation of his devot ion to duty in a useful life of active community and public service, and that you, Sir, be requested to forward a copy of this resolution to the family. MOTION presented. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Finance. MR. MILLER: Mr.

Speaker, I am really pleased to have the opportunity to second this motion of condolence. My association with Arthur Wright goes back many years. When I first moved into West Kildonan, of course he was already holding public office. I was one of the newcomers intruding into a new municipality, and he was one of those who was making it possible for those younge r people, the 3796

Frida� June 10, 1977 new family formations that required housing, but because ther e was not sufficient land in Winnipeg, he made it possible for people to move into the suburbs, knowing full well that the younger generation would demand much high er standards of services, schooling, educational facilities and recreational facilities.

I recall in 1950 a meeting where I had just met him, the plea he made to the residents of the community that they had an obligation to others to make available building sites and home sites and not try to because it might adversely affect them, they had an obligation to open up the door, so to speak, to this municipality so that young families could move in and make a life of it. After that first initial contact, I came to know Arthur Wrigh t extremely well. We worked together in local matters on many many occasions.

I didn't have the opportunity, by coincidence, to serve at any one time on the same level of government as he did. I was on the school board and he was on the council. It was at his urging when he le ft co uncil that I should take his place on council, and subsequently at his insistence, literally, when he decided he wanted to leave the Legislature, that I would have to follow in his footsteps and it was a condition that he posed, as a matter of fact, that he wanted very much to leave the Legislature, but only if I would follow him. So I have a great deal to thank Art Wright for.

I know the people of West Kildonan feel very very warmly toward Art Wright. He had been associated with the community for decades. He was instrumental in starting thi ngs with in West Kildonan, the beginning of senior citizen housing which was something very new in those days, and yet which he wo rked so effectively to bring into being Seven Oaks House, recreational facilities, his activities in his church, Kildonan United Church, whic h he spent much time on, considering how busy he was.

I don't know really how he found the time, but I know he was instrumental in the building program of the church, to add to it and to refurbish it, to the level that it is today. I guess in talking about Art Wright, frankly, I could talk for half an hour, Mr. Speaker, but I know that it would not be proper. He was a man of many qualities; I think perhaps the most outstanding quality that I found was a unique ability to put himself in the next person's place. No problem was too small or unimportant. If it was important to the person who was posing the problem, then that problem was important to Art Wright.

He never put down anyone. He took them seriously because he felt that if it was a concern, that he had to share that concern, not simply out of sympathy, but because Art Wright had possessed what I consider a true empathy for people, a real instinctive response to other people's needs, other people's fears.

In the latter months of his life when he was hospitalized at the Health Sciences Centre - this is just an example of the sort of man he was - he was in a whe elchair looking out the window over William Avenue, and he noticed that the snowplough s had not done such a good job on the sidewalk, and elderly people going to and from the hospital were having qyite a difficult time. He was in great pain at that time already. He didn' t hesitate.

He picked up the phone, he phoned the man who is now the district superintendent of District C in the City of Winnipeg, the former foreman who worked under Art Wright as Mayor, he picked it up and said, "This is Art Wright. Someth ing has to be done about the sidewalk on William Avenue. It is not fair to these old folks trying to get to the hospital. See what you can do." The man told me about it a few weeks later. He told me he was flabbergasted, he hadn't heard from Art Wright for fifteen years, but he instinctively did n't question it.

He picked up the phone and he phoned the district superintendent of the elderly division and said, "I don't know what this is all about. If I get a call from Art Wright that someth ing has to be done, it has to be done." And with in a half hour later this was looked after. I mention that story because it is so typical of Art Wright, that even at that time in his life he thought about others, and he thought about them consistently and always.

The Province of Manitoba, really, and the community , certainly, of West Kildonan are fortunate that they had someone like Art Wright to represent them, . both at the local level and at the provincial level. I would like to thi nk that perhaps the day will come when all 57 members of this House can even come close to the quality and the calibre of an Art Wright. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. LYON: Mr. Speaker, I would like to join in the motion of condolence to the family of our late friend and colleague, Arthur Wright.

I believe that the Minister of Labour and I are probably the only two members in the House who served consistently through the same period in this Legislature when Art Wright was here, from 1958 to 1966. And it was during that time, Sir, that I came to appreciate him as a man, sitting as he did over in the second row, somewher e in around where the Member for Fort Rouge sits. And if there are two qualities that one would associate with Arthur Wright, they would be decency and honour. He was a God-fearing man, a man of very little partisanship.

He sat as a member of the CCF, later the NOP, but I think I do him no disservice when I say that he could have sat equally as a Conservative or as a Liberal, because you would never know from his speeches really what kind of ideology or what kind of party he represented , with one or two exceptions. I remember on one occasion when he introduced what used to be a proverbial resolution that was 3797

Friday, June 10, 1977 introduced by the old CCF Party with respect to Esperanto, and I think Art Wright felt just about as much at sea with Esperanto as the rest of us in the House, and he expected the resolution to go down to defeat, which , as I recall, it did. But that was a rare occasion when he associated himself with someth ing, probably that his Honourable Leader of the day said, "Art, I think you've got to take this one on this session." I think he passed it around from time to time and it fell to Art's lot on one occasion.

But he was everything that the First Minister and the Minister of Finance have said about him in such moving terms, a decent and honourable and a God-f earing man, a credit to this Legislature, a credit to his community, and may I say, a creditto his party as well. So we shall miss him in his familiar posture around these halls, where he was such a competent executive assistant to his old friend and colleague, the Minister of Labour. We will all miss him for the generousness of the service that he provided to all memb ers of the House with respect to any enquiries that we had through the Department of Labour.

But we'll miss him more importantly, Mr. Speaker, as an uncommonly fine gentlemen which he was. So we join in full heart, in the Motion of Condolence to Mrs. Wright and to the fam ily. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie. MR. GORDON E. JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker, I would like to associate the Liberal group with the sentiments that have been expressed by the First Minister, the Minister of Finance, and the Leader of the Official Opposition.

As the Leader of the Official Opposition has sai d, probably only two members sat with him for the whole eight years - myself and the Member for Assiniboia, I believe, sat with him for four of those eight years and we came to know him.

Everything that has been said about him in the past few minutes is quite true. · One quality that I think we all . noticed in the late Art Wright when he was in debate, he was not wont to be cutting or sarcastic - and some of us, I am afraid, have been and still will be in the future, I suppose - but I have never ever heard Art Wright be sarcastic or cutting in debate even when his feelings were aroused or he had a sincere stake in whatever matter was being debated.

The other thing I remember about Art so well is that when he did go to work for the Minister of Labour and specialized in cases of the problems that were associated with Workmen's Compensation, that Art did not treat that as a nine to five job. He really put his heart and his feeling into the work .

And even if the case was - and I plead guilty of giving him some pretty tough cases from my constituency - and even if they were hopeless, he would still try, he would still do his absolute best, and even if it took months, he would always report back in a month or two months later, exactly what he had tried to do for the person who felt that he needed the help that was being called for. So, Mr. Speaker, we in the Liberal group are proud to associate ourselves with this Resolution in sending condolences to the Art Wright family and his friends. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour.

HONOURABLE RUSSELL PAULLEY (Transcona}: Mr. Speaker, having had the honour and privilege of being associated with Art Wright for over 40 years, I think it is fitting and proper that I should join in this Motion of Condolence. We served together in our respective departments at the CNR. We were engaged in municipal business at approximately the same time in this Legislative Assembly, and then shortly after becoming the Minister of Labour, Art and I became reunited when he became my Executive Assistant. I always truly appreciated the qualities and char acter of this outstanding person. As I stand here today, Mr.

Speaker, in my mind's eye I can see many people coming in to the office of Art Wright, whic h adjoined mine, depressed, hand icapped and on many an occasion, people who had felt that they had come to the end of the rope, figuratively speaking. Art would talk to them and invariably say, "Come on, let's go down to the cafeteria and have a cup of coffee, and then we'll come back and we'll look into your problems." And the difference of the expression on these people's faces was a marvel to see.

I think that if there is a reincarnation, it would be fitting and proper for Art to come in to the active field of psychology or psychiatric services, because he really and truly was a healer of problems of men. I was honoured, Mr. Speaker, at the holding of the last rites at West Kildonan Church for Art, to be able to say a few words of the outstanding qualities of this person. Since his passing, I have become more appreciative of his involvement in the work that he did. When he went into hospital, I started to really realize his input on behalf of people of all constituencies in the Province of Manitoba.

And as the Leader of the Opposition said, he was no narrow-minded politician. He considered his role in his job to serve the people of Manitoba regardless of any political leanings. I know, Mr. Speaker, as indeed all members of the Assembly will know, that similar motions some day, will be presented in this Assembly for each and every one of us. And I trust and 8 hope that in hearing this motion today, that we all remember and try to emulate and duplicate the type of service that Art gave to Manitoba. There is no question or doubt, Mr.

Speaker, that I join in extending to Pearl, the two girls and the son of Art Wright, our deep appreciation for a job well done. In conclusion, Mr. Speaker, I would say that Art and I had plans for the future. He had a little camp 3798

Friday, June 10, 1977 down at Beaver Creek and we had decided some months ago that we would leave.the office across the hall together, and that in the ensuing years we would continue the happy association that we had. Manitoba lost a good I lost a great friend as indeed he was a friend to all, a man we can all lookt o as one who really distinguished himself during his sojourn on earth. MR. SPEAKER: In accepting and agreei ng to the Motion of Condolence, would the honourable members please rise for a moment of silence. BUSIN ESS OF THE HOU SE MR.

SPEAKER: Before we proceed, I wonder if the Honourable Member for Flin Flan wishes to make a change. MR. THOMAS BARROW: Yes, I'd like to make two changes in Law Amendments Committee, Mr. Speaker. The name of Green replaces that of Paulley, R., and the name of Bostrom replace that of Dillen. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Is it agreed ?(Agreed) The Honourable House Leader. ADJOU RNED DEBA TES ON SECOND REA DING MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, Bill No. 81, and what I am proposing, Mr.

Speaker, is that we move from Bills 81 to 84 to 87 and that we then adjourn to Law Amendments Committee, if there is any time before 4:30. BILL {NO. 81) -

AN ACT TO AMEND THE EMPLOYM ENT STAN DARDS ACT (3). MR. SPEAKER: Bill No. 81. The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR. SHERMAN: Mr. Speaker, I want to acknowledge the fact that the Minister of Labour kindly distributed his notes on this bill to me prior to his introduction of the bill for second reading yesterday. I appreciated receiving his speaking notes. Unfortunately, I did n't have the opportunity to assess them and absorb them, and as a consequence, when the Minister introd uced the bill for second reading yesterday, I adjourned debate, wish ing some time to study his notes and consider the legislation.

I see no reason, Sir, why the legislation should be held at this time, or should be prevented from going to Committee and moving th rough further stages of the legislative process. As the Minister explained, the amendments that are proposed to The Employment Standards Act here are essentially technical in nature.

Certainly where they deal with the moneys that are ordered or owing to either party - employer or employee -w ith respect to termination requirements, the provisions in the bill seem to be desirable in that they eliminate some of the difficulties existing at the present time and bring a consistency to the legislation. Those having to do with wage collection procedures · under the The Payment of Wages Act essentially seem to have the same effect. The only area, Sir, in whic h I would have some reservations - but they're certainly not reservations that would impel me to delay passage of the bill - are those in

Section 10 dealing with the service of orders, notices and other documents on persons; that amendments will add a clause to the bill, Sir, that now make it clear, as the Minister pointed out that such documents and orders may be served on an officer or a director of a corporation. The Minister says the reason for this is that the existing Act does not spell this out explicitly, and presumably he wants to spell it out explicitly and as a consequence, we have that particular amendment in front of us now. I see no reason for delaying the bill or the amendments on those grounds.

I had felt that if that particular provision was spelled out fairly explicitly, or as explicitly as I would ha ve liked to have seen it spelled out in the existing legislation - obviously the Minister feels that there is a little bit of a leeway there that needed to be add ressed and corrected and that's the reason for the additional clause in the bill before us now. But I want to thank the Minister for having distributed those speaking notes to me yesterday. I am sorry I could not take advantage of them. If I had been able to, we would have been able to move the bill into Committee 24 hours earlier.

But, Sir, as far as I am concerned and my party are concerned, it can certainly go there now. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Assiniboia. MR. PATRICK: Mr. Speaker, I have no reason to hold the bill back. I am prepared to let it go into - 1 believe, it's going in to Law Amendments and I feel that I am prepared to let the bill go. It's not of a very serious and important nature and deals with the serving of orders and notices and I see nothing wrong with that.

Perhaps most of the bill is dealing with essential administrative matters and some of the amend ments do deal with the Labour Board to give the Board some discretionary powers to deal with situations where the employer or the employee may be partly at fault after receiving notices, so I see no reason and I'm prepared to let the bill go. QUESTION put, MOTION carried. MR. SPEAKER: Bill No. 84, the Honourable Member for Gladstone. 3799

Friday, June 10, 1977 MR. JAMES R. FERGUSON: Stand, Mr . Speaker. MR, SPEAKER: Bill No. 87, the Honourable Member for Gladstone. MR. FERGUSON: Stand, Mr. Speaker. R. SPEAKER: The Honourable House Leader. R. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, I wanted to deal with Bill No. 49. I noticed that it is in the name of the Honourable Member tor Birtle-Russell. I wonder if he is wanting to speak to this. A MEMBER: We will just wait. BUSI NESS OF THE HOU SE MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Gladstone. MR. FERGUSON: While we're waiting, if I may, I have one substitution tor Law Amendments. MR. SPEAKER: Very well. MR.

FERGUSON: I'd like to substitute the Honourable Member for Rhineland for the Member for Brandon West. MR. SPEAKER: Is it agreed? So ordered. BILL (NO. 49) -

AN ACT TO AMEND THE LIQUOR CONTROL ACT MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Birtle-Russell, Bill No. 49. The honourable member has 15 minutes left of his time. MR. GRAHAM: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Dealing with the question that is before us, and that is basically the reason that is given by various people tor a motion of a bill not being read now, but being read six months hence. Mr. Speaker, this is a move that has been used by various members of the Legislature at various times for reasons of their own choosing.

I think there are times, Sir, when bills definitely need to be looked at in the light of calm enquiry after a rather hectic session in the Legislature. At this particular time, we've been working for at least th ree weeks under speed-u p- morning, afternoon and evening sittings - sometimes going till 2:30 in the morning. And under those conditions, I would hesitate to say that there are very few members of this Chamber that are operating at their full mental capabilities at this particular time in the session. A MEMBER: Except for the Member for Radisson. MR.

GRAHAM: Most of them are tired, mentally drained, physically tired, but more especially, mentally tired at this time. Under those conditions, there are some bills that are very very important to many people, that probably should be reconsidered. And I would suggest, Sir, that if the Member for Radisson feels that this is a bill that falls into that category, then by all means use the six-month hoist. But, quite frankly, Mr. Speaker, I can think of halt a dozen other bills in this Chamber that do need serious reconsideration. MR. SPEAKER: Order please.

The Honourable Member for Flin Flan state his matter of privilege. MR. BARROW: Mr. Speaker, before the member goes into a long speech I would like him to understand that there are people on this side of the House, and I am included, that will vote against that hoist. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. That's not a matter of privilege. The Honourable Memberfor Birtle Russell. MR. GRAHAM: Mr. Speaker, it's not up to me to tell any member of the Legislature how to vote on any particular issue. I would say that every member should think very carefully about it.

Al I want to do is serve notice, or not serve notice, but to indicate to members that there are some pieces of legislation before this Chamber that probably should have a six-month hoist given to them. And I think that when those matters are considered , that every member should think conscientiously about it, and when the particular issue comes up, I would hope that every member gives it serious personal consideration, Just as we are giving serious personal consideration heret o a motion by an individual in the Chamber. So, Mr.

Speaker, with those few words, I would sincerely hope that this motion be dealt with very seriously by the members of the Chamber. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie. MR. GORDON E. JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker, I only wish to make a very brief statement about the motion made by the Member for Radisson.

We, that is the Liberal group, feel that in fairness to the member who proposed this resolution, and also due to the widespr ead public interest that has been evidenced by correspondence and phone calls and so on, we th ink that the motion made by the Member for Radisson should be defeated and the members of the House should be able to dispose of the bill. I know there is a time and a place for the six-month hoist motion, and perhaps in the opinion of others opposite this is the time for it, but we don't think so.

We think thatthe people in the province have been listening to the debate on this matter for some months now and we think that they are entitled to have a clear answer from the 56 voting members of the Legislature. Thank you. QUESTION put. MR. USKIW: Yeas and Nays, Mr. Speaker. 3800

Friday, June 10, 1977 MR. SPEAKER: Very well. Call in the members. Order please. The motion before the House is the amendment to Bill 49. A STANDING VOTE was taken, the result being as follows: YEAS: Messrs. Adam, Bostrom, Burtniak, Cherniack, Derewianch uk, Dillen, Doern, Evans, Gottfried, Green, Hanuschak, Jenkins, Johannson, McBryde, Miller, Paulley, Pawley, Sha fransky, Uruski, Uskiw, Walding. NAYS: Messrs. Axworthy, Banman, Barrow Blake, Boyce, Brown, Einarson, Enns, Ferguson, Graham, Henderson, G. Johnston, F.

Johnston Jorgenson, Lyon, McG ill, McKenzie, Malinowski; Minaker, Osland, Pa trick, Schreyer, Sherman, Toupin, Wilson. MR. CLERK: Yeas 21; Nays 25. MR. SPEAKER: In my opinion, the Nays have it and I declare the motion lost. Are you ready for the question on the main motion? The Honourable Minister of Mines. MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, I have sat in the Legislature tor a long time and I think that probably this is the first occasion when I have seen people who are against a measure also voting against a six month hoist. So perhaps we have reincarnated the mean ing in this Legislature of a six-month hoist.

I think that the Member for St. Johns attributed to a six-month hoist in a previous bill, a different meaning to the mean ing that would result in the rejection of the bill. That seems to have caught on. If it has caught on for this vote, Mr. Speaker, so be it. Let me say this, Mr. Speaker, without any equivocation whatsoever, that I have sat in the Legislature for many years and my understanding of a six-month hoist is to effectively kill the bi ll. When I voted against the sales tax, I voted for a six-month hoist on the sales tax.

I got up and said the reason I am voting fort h is hoist is not because I want it brought back six months hence, but because I believe that it kills the bill. When the Tories voted for a six-month hoist on Autopac, I don't think they voted that six months hence it would be brought back. I think that they were against Autopac. In any event, Mr. Speaker, let me make it clear, that when I voted for the hoist, I was not addr essing myself to the question that this bill would be returned in six months.

I recognized this as being one of the parliamentary ways in whic h a measure is defeated , and if I can defeat it on the first vote, I will defeat it on the first vote; if I have to wait for the second vote, I will try to defeat it on the second vote. I am now speaking on the principle of the bill, Mr. Speaker, whic h I indicated I would, and I wish to speak against the principle of this bill because, Mr. Speaker, I believe in more moderation in drinking habits.

And if that is anomalous to some of the members here, then some of them understood it when I said that I am speaking against a bill which said how information shall become free; because I said that that bill would restrict the freedom of information; that without the bill, information would be freer and with the bill, information would be restrictive. It is my opinion, Mr. Speaker, that the passing of this bill would lead to a deterioration of the drinking habits of the people in our community. Therefore, for that reason, Mr.

Speaker, and because I believe in moderation and because I believe in the principles that are being pushed by the Member for La Verend rye, that is, an attempt to reduce some of the problems with respect to drinking, I am voting against this bill. I believe, Mr. Speaker, that in our society the major problem that results with respect to the consumption of alcohol results because of the attitudi nal problems that we have developed vis-a-vis alcohol.

I remember that the former member Douglas Campbell said about liquor legislation "I have a simple rule; that what is more restrictive, I will vote for; that what is less restrictive, I will vote against." I respect that and I believe that that is what the Member for La Verendrye is doing. But in stating that axiom, the former Member for Lakeside gave me an axiom: What is for greater freed om, I will vote for; what is restrictive of freedom, I will vote against. And I have done that, Mr. Speaker, I have done that -(I nterjection)- I have done that, ha, ha. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. MR.

GREEN: I have done that in every area of activity, Mr. Speaker, since I first came into the Legislature in 1966, with respect to matters affecting the conduct and morals of human beings. And if the honourable member doesn't want to accept that, I don't give a damn what the Member for Fort Rouge accepts, because, Mr. Speaker, his example is not one that I would look to. I am go ing to speak to other honourable members who have listened in the past, regardless of whether they are Conservatives or New Democrats, and who know the position that I have taken on these questions, and I say to them, Mr.

Speaker, in my view - and it is my opinion only - I cannot be so dog matic as the Member for For t Rouge, who does not only express his view but expresses doctrines from on high which are divine and not to be argued against. I am suggesting, Mr. Speaker, that the greatest problem that we have with regard to liquor is that we, the legislators, have elevated liquor to a category and to an enticement that would never be there if we had not placed so much importance on indicating that it is prohibitive. When I first spoke on this question in 1966, we were talking about liquor advertising, and at that 3801

Friday, June 10, 1977 time I made the statement, Mr. Speaker, that the greatest advert isement was the prohibition, that when Eve ate the apple, it wasn't because it was advertised, it was because it was prohibited. And it was the prohibition that caused her to move in the direction of that apple. The honourable members will recall that approximately a week ago when I spoke in this House, I indicated, Mr.

Speaker, that I had my first drink at the age of seven - and I wasn't wrong about the figure, it was at the age of seven days, because at seven days ther e is, and I explained it, a procedure within the community of whic h I am a memberand the faith of whic h I am a member which says that a certain operation will be performed, and at the conclusion of that operation, Mr. Speaker, the person performing it dabs the babies lips with hard liquor, not wine, hard liquor, and the baby's attitude toward the operation changes immediately. I want to say, Mr.

Speaker, that I believe that in the area of censorship, I believe in the area of alcohol, that freedom given a chance will result in moderate consumption of alcohol. Restrictions carried out to their ultimate conclusion, which is prohi bition, and any gradient along the lines will result in distorted attitudes with regard to alcohol, and that what this Legislature is looking for is not a law but an attitude dealing with the moderate use of alcohol. I believe that that attitude, Mr.

Speaker, is reversed by the passing of a law with respect to it, and we have seen it every time we have had more restrictive legislation passed. So to the honourable members opposite particularly, who continually talk about freedom, I say give freedom a chance, that freedom given a chance will result in much more moderate attitudes toward alcohol. I also say, Mr. Speaker, give responsibility a chance.

The tel ling of people that they are irresponsible is what makes them irresponsible, and when we tell the eighteen-sear-olds in our community that they are irresponsible, that does more harm toward their developing a sensible attitude toward drinking than all the freedom in the world. And I say to gentlemen opposite that I have seen it happen, that I have seen it happen in many communities, that where liquor is treated, not as someth ing whic h is dealt with in moderation, but is not restricted, that you have far more success than in those areas where you tell people that they are prohi bited. So, Mr.

Speaker, I make here a plea on the part of both freedom and on the part of responsibility. If we want our eig hteen-year-olds to be responsible people, we should not tell them that they are irresponsible. If we say to our eig hteen-year-olds, "You have the responsibility as adult citizens in our society," you do not then, at the same breath, tell them that they are not responsible enough to be adults. Mr. Speaker, the worst part of the bill is the hypocrisy of it.

The thing that we are prohibiting is the thing that if you will go to in any area where the hig hest activities of society are carried on, we find people imbibing alcohol. When we go to Government House, we are drinking alcohol. When we go to any of the finest receptions, we are engaging in alcohol. When we look at any movie or television performance, you see people using alcohol. And the use in moderation, Mr. Speaker, we cannot say that it is bad, because society does it in its most ,/ , I repeat, sophisticated endeavour.

And you cannot both tell people that it is something which is done in the finest of company and in the finest of circumstances, but it is prohibited for an eig hteen-year-o ld because he is irresponsible. Now it will be said that the position that I am taking with regard to eig hteen could be taken with regard to seventeen, and it could be taken with regard to sixteen. And, yes, Mr. Speaker, I have no hesitation in saying that.

I say that if we had now law -(I nterjection)- laws, and I am not talking about attitudes, because attitudes can be far more compelling motivators of human beings than are laws; sometimes laws are deliberately broken - but if a person develops a positive attitude toward the consumption of alcoholic beverages, then you don't need any law. And if you ask me, Mr. Speaker, that what I am saying, if it applies, could apply to seventeen and sixteen-year-olds, certainly. In my own family, Mr.

Speaker - and I touch wood because it could happen anywhere and I need not consider myself so lucky or so wise as to have it excluded - in my own family the consumption of alcohol I hope has never been done in excess. And it has always been considered a normal feature of some functions in the home, at the age of seven days, at the age of a year, at any age. And trying to put an age on it, Mr .

Speaker, is to tell people that they are irresponsible, and there is no greater way of making people adopt irresponsible attitudes than having a group of legislators hypocritically say than an eig hteen-year-old is irresponsible and cannot consume alcoholic beverages. So I plead with the honourable members, and I think that this is an important bill. I plead with the honourable members to take a chance on freedom - it works; to take a chance on dealing with people responsibly, because if you show them the confidence that you believe them to be responsible, then they will be responsible. I say, Mr.

Speaker, that in taki ng that chance, they are not going to create a terrible liquor problem in our society, because that liquor problem has already been created with the kinds of restrictions, with the kinds of laws that legislators have passed with all good intention of trying to avoid those problems. I say try the opposite course for a change, Mr. Speaker, and I am fully confident that it will lead to what the Honourable Member for La Verend rye is looking for - moderation, and the normal 3802

Friday, June 10, 1977 consumption of alcoholic beverages. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. ENNS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I haven't spoken on this bill before and I really hadn't intended to do so, lest I be cast in any hypocritical role.

However, I am prompted to rise because of the comments just made by the Honourable Member, the Minister of Mines and Resources, and particularly because of what has become a bit of a hallmark of this government in their willingness, indeed their eagerness, to grant unrestricted freedoms when it comes to questions of, I suppose, morality, when it comes to questions of drug use, when it comes to questions of no censorship in our movies, when it comes to pornography, when it comes to drinking and the use of alcoholic beverages.

I think the honourable, your colleague, the former Minister of Highways and Transportation, used to have some kindly things to say about some members opposite on this particular subject from time to time. But my purpose is not to belabour that point, except to underline it, that once again that point is being made by the honourable member and perhaps there is some truth to him.

I think that I am of course going to chart two extreme courses, neither of which is right, because members opposite are not quite prepared, are they, to follow the arguments that are often so logically presented by the House Leader to the point that you would want to have no age limit - it has been mentioned by some - no age limit on any kind of abusing drugs, no age limit to the exploitation of children in pornography films, no age limit to having five and six and eig ht-year-o lds being employed, indeed, enslaved, in the film industry, so that the sexual deviates of this country can get some particular satisfaction out of it.

Certainly not. But I want to tell you, Mr. Speaker, how quickly the restrictions or the willingness for r.emoving all restrictions fade from honourable members opposite, that is of course when you deal with economic matters, when we deal with the size that farms should be, when we deal with who can buy farm land, when we deal with who can sell automobile insurance, when we deal with the entrepreneur, when we deal with the farmer, then we are all prepared to talk about the restrictions of freedoms; then we are prepared to legislate in this Chamber what should constitute the size of a farm, who can buy one.

We are prepared to divide Manitoba citizens into different classifications as to who can own land and who can't own land. Put on the question of whether somebody should be drinking at age eig hteen or nineteen, we get a plea, and an earnest plea,-that calls for unlimited freedom, unlimited freedom, unlimited -(I nterjection)- No, I am twigging the Honourable House Leader a little bit and honourable members opposite, because of how easily they can fall into their own dogmatic trap about when they talk about unlimited freedom and its results.

Honourable members opposite cannot support unbridled freedom in the economic sense, because thei r argument is that it ends up hurting people, and it does. I don't support it and we don't support it on this side. Unbridled freedom in some of the questions dealing with items like this in front of us that deal with mind-abusing, spiritually-abusing alcohol, drugs, or other questions of morality also end up hurting people; or do we close our eyes to the tragic aftermaths of some of this? Do we close our eyes to what fills up our institutions? Do we close our eyes to our hospitals?

Do we close our eyes to the people, adults and children, that are maimed daily, monthly , on our hig hways because of alcohol abuse? So, Mr. Speaker, those are the two extreme positions, neither of which are correct. We accept some bridling in of these particular freedoms. Our society accepts that and you accept that.

So don't talk to me about this nonsense about if we do away with all restrictions, that we will arrive at that ultimate utopia, because there are people that, for different reasons, physical, mental, and certainly these are some of the reasons that we talk and we from time to time, whether we do it well, all we do is we reflect those people that put us into these chairs to make these decisions from time to time.

But we attempt to regulate, we attempt to restrict, certain actions of fellow citizens in the use of and in the hand ling of different things that can, not in thei r innate self but in their use, be injurious to the persons themselves and to other people around them. We are talking about passing gun laws in this country right now, and I will bet you on the gun law restrictions you will all be standing up and supporting it.

Every New Democratic national member in Ottawa will support the gun law legislation now being introduced in the House, because you assume, not that that gun by itself is going to stand up there and kill somebody, or not that that gun by itself is going to walk out of a hardware store and be party to a holdup, but because it can be used indiscriminately, it can be used indiscriminately. -(l nterjections)- Mr. Speaker, if the Honourable Member for Ste.

Rose would even suggest that I am out of order, then, Sir, I would hope that you would begin to nod to him that he doesn't know what he is talking about, because I am talking specifically to the bill. I am speaking specifically to the bill and in particular to the comments that were made by the Honourable Member for lnkster, the House Leader. I am asking him to take his logical argument to its final conclusion, no restrictions, then let us remove any reference to age in the drinking laws of this province. Let us remove them. -(l nterjection) Well, then, let's hear that amendment.

If we are to hear any charges, any discussion of hypocrisy in this House, if we are to hear any charges of hypocrisy in this House then let's move in that direction. 3803

Friday, June 10, 1977 Mr. Speaker, the point of course I do want to make is that we have in fact moved in what many people in our society and in this province believe too quickly and too fast, too carelessly and too recklessly in this direction. The fact that we have allowed the permissive society to so invade our homes, the privacy of our homes, the fact that we have lost so much control in terms of the kind of damaging, long-term damaging use of alcohol or drugs surely can't be denied.

So somewhere in between those extreme positions, somewhere in between those extreme positions is, as usual, the right procedure. It is a position of the centre.

And the reason for this amendment of raising the drinking age from eighteen to nineteen, the reason why it is here is that it has been created because of specific problems, specific problems that have been drawn to our attention by those persons most directly involved in the educational system in our province, namely, the Association of School Trustees in this Province of Manitoba, who have sent in an endorsation, a resolution, asking for the legislators of this province to make such a move. It has been sent in by those very people who deal with our students at that critical age in our schools.

The Teachers' Society, they have sent in a resolution dealing in this area. -(I nterjection)- Am I out there? A MEMBER: No! No! No! MR. ENNS: Well, maybe I'm ... I am told that, unlike the honourable member who took a moment to remember, took a moment to remember, that I am now exaggera ting. But let's get back. Let's get back.

Those persons directly responsible, and very often surely, have the responsibility in the sense that they arethe parents, the parents who have taken enough interest to stand up and very often act in the thankless job of being the trustees for our educational system, they have suggested this particular measure. The suggestion has come from many individual constituents, and surely the question when asked, when raised on any kind of a poll, it is reflected.

I want to tell you, it is no secret, we have done our little bit of polling when we sent out a members' piece of information from the Chamber, like many other members, and we put that question on our franking piece, and the answers came back in somewhat frightening uniformity, at the rate of 85 percent in favour of this particular measure - should the drinking age be raised - as opposed to 10o r12 percent against. The poll that was carried out, admittedly just a straw poll, by one of our Winnipeg newspapers, The Winnipeg Tribune.

The Winnipeg Tribune came out with precisely the same percentage figures - 85 to 15 percent. It doesn't matter, but over a thousand, seventeen hundred people phoned in one day- took the offer of one of our daily newspapers, The Winnipeg Tribune who were invited to phone in on this particular question, and the percentage came in - 85 percent in favour. Well, what are we doing here ladies and gentlemen? What are we doing, Mr. Speaker, if we should not be attempting to reflect those very people that have elected us to this House?

Surely on issues like this, particularly on issues like this which rarely have taken the colour of partisan politics, my experience in this House has always been that on liquor questions we have had free votes. We have always had a free vote on liquor questions, so it is not a question of NDP politics or Conservative or Liberal politics. All the more, Mr.

Speaker, is why we should be listening, whether they're super sophisticated or not, but that those indicators that we ha ve from our constituents, the Tri bune poll showed us that 85 percent of the people right here in the immediate area of Winnipeg, given an opportunity, were prepared to phone in and so offer that opinion. Our polls - I'm satisfied that 85 percent of my constituents want me to speak in precisely the way I'm speaking today. They want them to vote in that way. That's the point and that's the gist of my few remarks, Mr. Speaker.

I'm sugge sting that there is a very good reason not to get into the totality of the argument that the Honou rable Minister of Mines and Natural Resources puts forward, that kind of argument in principle as to whether restrictions create more abuse, and whether total freedom would be the answer to resolve this question. I rather suspect that there's a fair bit of merit in what the Honourable Minister is saying, but the fact of the matter is we have some responsibility to represent our constituents.

But, I'm very very satisfied that the bill that the Member for La Verend rye is bringing forward - the manner and way in which I am voting on it as a private member - and I invite other members to consider voting on it as private members in the long-standing tradition of this House that we have always treated, we have always treated matters of morality in such a manner. There has never been a stigma placed on that. Nobody is going to suggest that if you vote for or against itthatthat is a New Democratic Party position or that this is a Conservative position.

Don't call call us old fogey's, they may call us trad itionalists, or they may call us out of touch with the younger set, but I want to tell you thatthe member that brought this bill in, he took the time, he took the time to canvas numerous high schools - over 2,000 students of the very age affected - G rade XII. It was a surprising result. So, Mr. Speaker, I would ask the honourable members opposite to really search themselves, and ask themselves whether or not they cannot accept the idea, whether it satisfies them on the kind of purist position as to what is right or what is wrong in this matter.

Can they not accept the fact thatwe do accept certain restrictions from time to time on our behaviour? We're considering very specific restrictions in other areas right now, use of firearms already mentioned, and I couldn't help of course, 3804

Friday, June 10, 1977 but throw in the fact that you members opposite are very prone to restrict us, or place restrictions on the society as a whole when it deals with economic matters. Then it becomes a very virtuous principle. Well, that's the question of freedom I suppose, and that's the definition of freedom with which we'll have to quarrel with from time to time. . But, Mr. Speaker, the bill deserves the favourable consideration that I know in my heart that a number of members opposite would be prepared to give it.

I believe that there has been some deg ree of pressure put on them, particularly in this, an election year, where they are a little concerned or nervous about doing anything that may in fact, influence a segment of the voter which they think they have a particular attachment for, and they are wrong. -(I nterjection) - The bill deserves support, Mr. Speaker, and I intend to support it. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Finance. MR. MILLER: Well, Mr. Speaker, I did n't really thi nk that I would have an opportunity to speak on this bill, because I though t the last vote taken would have resolved the matter.

However, it hasn't, so I thought maybe I'd contribute something. I've listened to the Member for Lakeside. I heard little of what the Minister of Mines and Natural Resources said. The suggestion is that polls are taken and the polls have indicated by those who responded to the polls and that is a small percentage as a rule, a certain interest, certain desire. I know polls were taken across this country on capital punishment and I know that if those polls had been followed the vote in parliament would have been a resounding vote in favour of capital punishment.

And according to the Memb er for Lakeside, it should have been. Well, maybe he's brought into this House and feels that he has to go back to sound out his electorate all the time. I think when people elect the Member for Lakeside they elect someone who they feel has a mind, can think, can evaluate, can make judg ment based on his understanding of issues, and they expect him to use his God-given sense and his intellect to make decisions. And that's why he's sent here. On the issue of capital punishment, a decision was made in the House of Commons which I think ran contrary to the public mood.

I would go one step further, I would suggest that if a poll was taken by honourable members of either side ... -(I nterjection)- Is that for my benefit? I didn't hear it. Mr. Speaker, if you wanted to look for an issue on which to vote, and create another issue, let's look at driving at age 16.

When that 16-yearold is suddenly permitted under our law to get behind the wheel of a killer instrument, which kills more than anything else in our society, more people are killed through automobile accidents than are killed in wars according to statistics, and it's done consistently every long week-end, every day of the week. You put a poll to people whether or notthe driving age should be raised from 16 to 17 or 18, and I predict an awful surprise to a lot of people. You will find a great percentage favouring an increase in that age. -(I nterjection)- And, the member says we should do it.

Well, with all due respect to the member, I think if he was faced with that he might talk a little differently. Mr. Speaker, no one den ies that there is a problem. I am not going to go the route taken by the Minister of Mines and Natural Resou rces and say, well really this is a moral thing, there's a hangup about drinking, let's remove it all. There are practical thi ngs, there is the practical problem. In a society whic h has acquired a certain life-style, you just can't dismiss it with a snap of the finger. But I think, Mr.

Speaker, that the issue is not whether that 18-year old drinks or doesn't drink, the problem is that there are people who are getting into beverage rooms and into bars, etc., who really should n't be and there is a problem on the part of those who are dispensing the beverage in being able to identify by looking, literally, to satisfy themselves whether in fact this person is qualified and is of age. And I think that's where the problem arises, at least that is what's been conveyed to me by people who are in the business.

When I was 18, and my drinking age happened to be 21, but I can tell you at 21 I had a great deal of difficulty convincing bartenders and others that in fact I was of legal age. I was quite a bit older before that came about even though, one incident the Member for St. Johns gave to the House, in the United States somehow I was accepted. But the problem is one of enforcement.

I'm one of those and think the Minister of Health once proposed it, or one of the members, suggesti ng that there be made available to young people who have difficulties getting into a beverage room but who are of a�e, an ID card - not just a birth certificate which can be handed out from Johnny to Tony to Michael to anybody else, they just pass it on, but an ID card be available with a photograph indicating the dat_e of birth and a picture of the individual. The onus is, Mr. Speaker, on those wh ? feel that they have a �1ght to enter into a facility that serves liquor.

The onus is on them to prove that m fact they have that nght. The onus is not on the beverage room operator to prove that he is correct in refusing to serve liquor to someone under age. If in the opinion of waiter or the owner or the operator of the facility, if that person feels that the individual on the premises is under age, I think the la� says very clearly he j_ust does not serve them, and the onus is therefore on the person who feels aggrie ved to prove otherwise.

Therefore, with a system of ID cards with photographs then that onus would require that they could get that sort of card, they could get that sort of identification and that particular problem would be resolved. 3805

Friday, June 10, 1977 On the other argument that we have heard that the older ones buy drinks for the younger ones, Mr. Speaker, that was done in my day and in my day at age 17 in high school, where the age of 21 was the legal age then, I can tell you at the graduation of the high school that I attended, it flowed and it flowed pretty freely.

And I can tell you before the age of majority-w hich was changed in this House - and in West Kildonan which is a fine upstanding community, there was great concern at graduations in the high schools, because at 18 and 17, the beer and the liquor cans the morning after were all over the place, and very disturbed parents, and no one knows where it cane from and how it got there but it got there. So this is not new, it's endless.

I agree ther e should be enforcement because our society is not ready to go the whole route, and I agree therefore that if we do set a limit, do set a magical figure, that we have to certainly think in terms of the ones who are providing the facilities and those who want to make use of those facilities, and that some identification, the onus to get that identif ication is on the individual who feels he or she has the right to have access to the facility.

The right of the owner or the waiter to refuse access I think is in law, it is their right to do so and if we had that kind of identification I think it would serve that purpose and other purposes as well, where the age is a factor. I think that plus then , adequate law enforcement, law enforcementwould do it. But to simply raise it by an artificial twelve months, I honestly don't think it's going to really meet the needs of those that are concerned because I think you are playing with numbers, and I don't think it is really going to make any difference. I can see nineteen.

I can see, a year from now, somebody saying, "It hasn't worked; let's go to twenty. It hasn't worked; let's got to twenty-one. Let's keep goi ng." And there are always going to be people who ... you know the higher you go, the more breaches of the law there are going to be, because if it is at nineteen then the eight een-year olds are going to be found at fault; if it is twenty, then the nineteen-year olds and all the younger ones are going to be breaking the law.

So I think when we decided that the age of majority-a nd it was, I think, unanimous on the part of this House -t he age of majority was eigh teen, that an eight een-year old can sign a contract, can be sued, can be held liable, can enter into an agreement, when all those things were permitted -a nd at eig hteen can certainly drive a car, been driving it for two years - and those things were permitted.

Stand for office, vote, get elected, when those were done, then I think we made a decision which now we are sort of trying to - not modify, but trying to, becuase of a particular issue, trying to get around in a very narrow way. I don't think we are addressing the problem adequately, I think the problem, in the final analysis, is an attitude toward liquor, education toward the consumption of alcoholic beverages, and that should n't just start at a certain magical age, it should start at the very beginning so a child grows up with that kind of attitude.

You can't ignore it until age eig hteen or seventeen or nineteen and suddenly say, "Now you are going to be educated to the use of alcohol." That's nonsense. Either you are brought up in an atmosphere where there is a certain respect for the fact that you are drinking and using a beverage which can be harmful, an unde rstanding of what it means and the implications thereof. You start with a youngster or you have lost the oppor tunity. You can't just plug him in at a certain point in time. So, Mr.

Speaker, I voted for the six-month hoist, because frankly that was my way of saying I would lay this matter to rest now.

I will vote against the resolution, but I would be very interested and would like to see one of the departments, whoever is involved here, to undertake to look into the question of an identification with a photograph so that both the operators of the facilities and the younger people who want access to them will have some means of assuring that the constant guessing - is he eig hteen, is he not eig hteen, do they get in under a·ge - that all of those things can be adequately and properly handled, and the waiter can always demand - even from me, if he has any question in his mind whether I am eig hteen or not- demand the right to demand some proof that in fact I am that age.

And if he is not satisfied, then he simply doesn't have to serve me. And if I want to then visit his facility, I have to show the identification, I have to show proof. That sort of thing I would support and would be interested in seeing that kind of system brought in. But on the issue itself as it stands now, it is too simplistic, overly simplistic, and I think it raises a lot of expectations amongst people that by just the altering of a figure from eighteen to nineteen, that someth ing dr amatic will happen in our society. I don't believe it will. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Ste. Rose. MR.

ADAM: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. I don't intend to be very lengthy with my remarks on this resolution, but I am opposed to the resolution and I voted for the hoist in order to kill the bill in that way, but since I lost my vote on that I intend to stand and speak against the resolution. The Minister of Finance has made some of the comments that I intended to make. However, as I mentioned, my remarks will be fairly brief and I will get to the point.

And I think that ifthe Member for La Verendrye had communicated with his colleagues - maybe he has, but I think that he hasn't because the information that I have from Alberta is that they have a problem on their hands there with the drinking age at nineteen. In fact I just spoke to my brother a couple of weeks ago and that is one of the things that he mentioned when he was here. I told him that we had a bill here in the House to raise 3806

Friday, June 10, 1977 the age of drinking age to nineteen, and he says, "Well, Alberta has got a problem." Thei rd rinking age there is 19 and they are having young people underage, as low as 13 years of age drinking, and the drinking age of 19 has been unsuccessful there according to the information that I have and they are in a box. They don't know whether they should reduce it now to 18 or whether - they are talking of going to 21. I would not want to see us look like a bunch of stupid fools in Manitoba by getting into the same box as the Province of Alberta with their liquor legislation .

But the reason that I am opposed to this resolution is not particularly for that reason, whether you get yourself into a box or not. In my seven years in this House I have never seen a more discriminatory piece of legislation. Mr. Speaker, I cannot see how anyone - it would have to come from a Con

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	30-4-80
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	30th 4th hansardpdf 80.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	9ee0e70316d6e9ec3b0c14e6f76da302f87547e1

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