VOL. 2 PRELIMI::-lARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSE~ffiLY FOR THE PERIOD: 3:00 p.m. - 6:00 p.m. THURSDAY, MAY 15, 1980 NO. 43

!·lay 15, 1980 Tape No . 15 57 DW - 1 The House met at 3:00 P .M . Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER (Simms): Order, please! I would like to welcome to the gallery on behalf of hen. members the town manager of the town of Happy Valley - Goose Bay in the district of Nas~ kaupi, Mr. Cecil Vincent. SOME HOM. MEMBERS: Hear, hear: MR. SPEAKER: And I have a communication here that I have been asked to pass on to hen. members. It is addressed to l·!lr.

Speaker.~ The Lieutenant-Gover;nor returned from hospital yesterday and is making good progress to normal health~ He has asked me to express to you and to the members of the House of Assembly his de~p appreciation of the gracious resolution which'was passed by the House. His Honour was also deeply appreciative of the beautiful flower arrangement that he received in hospital.

In thanking you and the hen. members for their thoughtful kindness 1 His Honour wishes me to observe that it is only in keeping with the cordial and happy relation- ship that His Honour has always enjoyed with the members of the House of Assembl~~ Signed by Major Donald C. Barter, Private Secretary. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hen. member for St. John's North. MR. J. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of privilege. This is the first opportunity that I have had to raise this matter.

It has been reliably reported to me that on one of the open line programmes ,specifically Bas Jamieson's Open Line programme this morning that he declared that were stacks and stacks of boxes of new~flaqs stored in Confederation Building, andalso that the artist, Christopher Pratt,had received an enormous fee. 4071

~ay 15, 1980 Tape No. 155 7 OW - 2 ~R • .J. C.'\RTFR: Now, on the seco~d point first: 3r. Pratt has done his work free o! charge . completely !~ee of charge . The committee feels that he s ~ould be paid for the ar~ mate rials that he used,which might come co $100, the cardboard a ~d the pa9er and the paints;aside from that his workmanshi? was entirely free . On the firs t ~atter, the re ar e only eigh t fl ags and no ne of them belong to the qovernment. So fa r they are charged out to me .

One is in the hall do wns tair~ in the lobby, t~e one we can see~ anothe r one is in the Opposition eommon room,and six are at my house. And so fa r they belong to me,they do not even belong to the gove rnment . So I wo uld l i ~e those mat ter s co be straight ened up. MR . !::. ROBERTS: :~ r . Speaker. 407 2

May 15, 1980 Tape No. 1558 NM- 1 MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : The ~on. member fer the Strait of Belle Isle, to the point of privilege. MR. ROBERTS: I was going to say I think this falls under the rubric of not so much a point of privilege but the well known practice in the Chamber of a member, you know, making a statement under the guise of a point of privilege which really it is to clarify a matter or to set straight a matter. I do not think it requires any action from the House,but the hon. gentleman has made the statement. I think that speaks for itself. MR.

SPEAKER: With respect to the point of privilege then 1I would rule that there is no prima facie case but the hon. member for St. John's North has taken the oppo·rtunity to clarify or point out the position with respect to some comments that were attributed to the situation with regard to the flag. STATEMENTS BY MINISTERS: MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Justice. MR. O'I'l'ENHEIMER: Mr.

Speaker, I would just like to inform hon. members of the House with respect to the Recruit of the Year Award for the Royal Newfoundland Constabulary,which was made a short while ago; as hon. members may recall, the Rotary Club of St. John's, through a group called the Lion Tamers Group, yearly since 1965 have made such an award and I was pleased to be there and to congratulate the three constables and to inform the House who they are.

The winner of the Recruit of the Year Award was Constable Terrence Au<;uatus, an<"' the two runners-up in order of running up are Constable Gerard Powe~-·and Constable Eric Keating. . I know that all hon. members join me in congratulating those three members of the Royal Newfoundland Constabulary. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, he<'r: MR. SPEAKER: The han. member for Grand Bank. MR. THOMS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My colleagues and -- - - I em this side of the Bo1211e should certainly be happy with· congratulations to the Recruit of the Year and the two runners up. I have often stated in this House, Mr.

Speaker, that the Royal Newfoundland Constabulary is a police force 4073

~1ay 15, 198 0 Tape No. 155 8 NM - 2 that is second to none. They are one MR. TB O~IS: of the best. I have had a lot of contact rith them d1JXing my professional career and I can safely say that they are second to no police force in the world. And on behalf of myself and my colleagues I woUld certainly extend congra~lations to these three new recruits. SOME BON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear~ ORAL QUESTIONS: MR. SPEAKER (Silllms) : The hon. member fOJ: Grand Bank. MR. THOMS: Mr. Sp .eaker, I have a question I would like to direct to the Premier of the Province.

In view of the eno0110us respect, and in vieiiO' of the tremendous sa=ifice that ~mbers o;f: the Royal Canadian Legion throughout Newfoundiand, and,indeed the world, you know,we do owe an awfUl lot, the free worl.d owe .s an awfUl lot to these men who fought in the First and Second World War and also to veterans who fo1.1g)lt in the Korean War. In view of this fact woUld the Premier not reconsider the government's decision to permit a member of the Canadian Legion · 'to appear befoze the Bar of this House in connection with the prcposed flag? MR. SPEAKER: 'lhe hen. the .Premier. 4074

Ma y 15 , 1980 Tape No. 1559 DW - l :1R. SPEAKER (Simms): The hon. the Premier. PREMIE~ PECKFORD: Mr.

Speaker, I for one,I guess, could demonstrate tangibly and concretely my respect and esteem for the Royal Canadian Legion by citing the fact that I was astounded last year on a number of occasions to physically be present at a number of ceremonies that the Royal Canadian Legion are engaged in as a part of their mandate and constitution which h~ never been attended by a Premier before. ~nd I was really surprised by that and I think that if the executive of the Royal Canadian Legion 1 and the other members who111 I h&ve had a lot of close dealings with over the last year-I know they would vouch for thi~ that I have been, as a Premie~ a very good friend of the Royal Canadian Legion in anything they have come and requested of this government and have requested of -me.

On th~~ particular issue the government,through the Government Bouse Leader (Mr. Marshall), made their wishes clear yesterday. And I would only reiterate the reasons that were given in that letter that Mr. Marshall delivered to the Speaker which I think are very, very substantial reasons for not allowing a member of the Royal Canadian Legion to come before the Bar.

I think it would be a serious affront to the British parliamentary system because it would be a serious affront to the Select Committee itself and the members of the Select Committee who represented very admirably every member of this House as a ~~• when they went around this Province. And more importantly or just as important the whole question that all'special privilege to non~. -qual opportunity for alt is the kind of policy that this administration wants to pursue in its desire to bring in new measures or whatever in this Rouse and~hence we will 4075

May 15, 1980 Tape No. 1559 DW 2 PREMIER PECXFORD: always use the Select Committee route, the public hearing route to ensure that all agencies, all individuals, all groups of people in this Province get an.equ~l opportunity to put their views on issues of major import. -·- - · - ·~- ' SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER (Simms): The hon. member for Eagle River. MR. E. HISCOCK: My question is to the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan). The people on the Labrador coast, in particular, are a bit surprised, basically, with regard to the Northern cod stocks.

It is their attitude that if anybody should. have a say on them it should. be the people on the coast of Labrador. In this regard the question comes up with regard to the government barge. When the Union ended up applying for the fish plUlts in Mary's Harbour and in Snug Harbour and in Cartwright, they also a~ked for the use of the barge. Will the company, the local ieople along the coast of Labrado~ be getting that barge for the fish plant? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Fisheries. ----- -- MR. J. MORGAN: Well, first of all, Mr.

Speaker, in commenting on, the preadlle to the question I want to MDtic:m that in our position on the Northern cod the~e was substantial input 4076

:-lay 15,1980 Tape No. 1569 AH-1 MR. MORGAN: in that policy position from the Labrador Advisory Council. I am convinced,· if I can recall correctly that their position in fact was almost stronger than what our position is today on the Northern cod issue. Now as pertains to facilities in Labrado~ I thank the hon. gentleman for asking that question. It is only today I have been dealing with that matter. So- -eks ago I met with the Fishermen's Union, Mr. Cashin and others,and a new company,called the Labrador Shrimp Company,formed by the union.

They have licenses issued . by the federal government for the fishing of shrimp and the y wanted to get involved in facilities in Labrador owned by the Newfoundland government. At that time I advised th- and in writing after the meeting as well, that our position would be we would consider leasing the facilities at Cartwright and at Mary's Harbour and possibly the barge 1providing they could in return for that approval in principle indicate to us,before giving final approval, the type of operations to be carried out and who they would have as manager-operators in these facilities.

I was of the opinion they had Bay Bulls Seafoods as the company to operate cartwright. Unfortunately 1 for some reason that company has now withdrawn the proposal to operate that facilit~ sa I have now as of today · in a telex to Mr. Frank Flynn, the President of the corporation, the · shrimp company,_ asked him to clarify to us as soon as possible what the plans are of that company, the shrimp company,so that we can make a decision. whether to lease the facilities to the unioll( through their.

C:OIIpanie• or to lease the facilities to private enterprise;in this case to a company like Fishery Products,or somebody else,who operated last year. So right now it is in a bit of a limbo. we are awaiting word from the Fishermen's Union, Mr. Cashin and Mr. Frank Flynn 0the President of "'""-- I...U ,!; -..:.."lion's shrimp company, to indicate to us what their plans are for the operations this year. But until we get that,there is no decision being made in a definite way. But I want to stress the importance of 4077

May 15, 1980 Tape No. 1561 GH -1 MR. MORGAN: the fishermen's union was wanting to get involved in over-the-side sales or direct sales in Labrador this year, in direct sales of cod and turbot, and, of course, we are opposed to that . I am opposed to any over-the-side sales to foreigners of species of that nature which we feel, and the industry feels, can be processed by the industry operating onshore in Labrador, in th~s case Fishery Products which carries out a collecting service for the st. Anthony operations and Nickerson's operations working South from Black Tickle.

So, because of that, we will not be leasing the barge to any activity, in this case union activity, that would be aiding over-the-side sales which we are opposed to. So, until the Federal minister makes a decision on whether or not to grant licences or grant approval for over-the-side sales to the union in Labrador, which I am hoping he will not, by the way. Mr. Cashin does not like that, but I am strongly opposed to having species leave these waters and go into foreign nations which ca.It be processed on our shores in Labrador. So, until Mr.

LeBlanc makes a decision, which he indicated last Saturday he would make this week, there has been no decision made with regard to leasing the barge. But if we do lease it to Fishery Products, it will be going into Smokey as a collecting point and a service centre to service the operations of Fishery Products in collecting fish along the coast. MR. HISCOCK: MR. SPEAKER: (Simms) for Eagle River. MR. !liSCOCX: A final supplementary. A final supplementary, the hon. member Does the Minister of Fisheries (Mr.

Morgan} also know that Fishery Products have plans to close down their rooms in Snug Harbour and Fishing Ships this year, thereby having the local fishermen find their own supply of food, salt and gasoline? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Fisheries. MR. MORGAN: Well, Mr. Speaker, no, I am not totally familiar with what the company is doing in Labrador. I planned to hold meetings with Fishery Products this week, but I am of the impression from talking to Mr. Etchegary, in particular, that if they can get the 4079 -_.,._ --··· -

May 15, 1980 Tape No. 1561 GH-2 MR. MORGAN: lease, if they can arrange far us to lease the barge to them, that that would be the floating service centre to replace other centres they used last year. So, they are in right now, I would say, limbo as well, because there is no decision made by us with regard to the leasing facilities and we are waiting on two decisions. In this case, the faster t;hey come the better, one from Mr. LeBlanc in Ottawa with regard to over-the-side sales and the second 1from the ~ion with regard to finding manager-operators for the facilities at Mary's Harbour and at Cartwright. MR.

SPEAKER: (Silllms) MR. LUSH: The han. member for Terra Nova. Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Transportation and Communications (Mr. Brett). No doubt the minister is aware of the recent developments and the circumstances surrounding these developments at St. Brendan's re their dissatisfaction, one, with their regular ferry servic::e and, secondly, their discontent and dissatisfaction with the ferry that was to replace their reqular ferry service while it was in for its annual refit.

I wonder if the minister can tell us what action he has taken, or is taking, to resolve that very serious situation? ~060

May 15, 1980 Tape No. 1562 IB-1 MR. SPEAKER: (SIMMS): The hon. the Minister of Transportation and Communications. MR. BRETT: Mr. Speaker, we had a boat or a ferry to put on that run while the regular was under refit. Unfortunately,it did not meet with the approval of the people. And I do not particularly like the part of the picketing and all that because I do not think government should act under pressure, not that type of pressure. But we have or. should I say we are negotiating to get another boat. I think the problem w~th the one that we found was that she could not take cars, just pedestrians.

So the operator went there actually with the boat but things were so hot that he pulled out of it. But we are negotiating with another boat owner and we are hoping to be able to get that boat and that one will be able to take cars. What it will mean is that the regular ferry will stay on until this other boat that we are negotiating for is ready. MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the han. member for Terra Nova. MR. LUSH: It indeed was unfortunate, Mr. Speaker, that the law-abiding citizens of St.

Brendan's had to take this action but it came through frustration and dissatisfaction and discontent. But I wonder if the minister would address himself to the real large problem of the people's dissatisfaction with the present ferry services. And in view of the concern expressed by the people of St. Brendan's and the action that they have taken 1I wonder if the minister is in a position to indicate to the House just what he plans to do with the present ferry services? Has he changed his mind with respect to providing extra funds for the purchse of a new ferry service for St. Brendan's in this fiscal year? MR.

SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Transportation and Communications. MR. BRETT: No, Mr. Speaker, I have not changed my mind. I could not if I wanted to because the government does not have the money. It is just as simple as that. I do not expect there 4061

May 15 , 1980 Tape No. 1562 IB-2 MR. BRETT : will be any change in the ferry system at St. Brendan's this year. However, I will be in a position,hopefully not later than the latter part of next week,to make a fairly comprehensive statement or lengthly statement on what government plans to do with all the ferries of the Province. MR. LUSH: A final supplementary. MR. SPEAKER (SIMMS): A final supplementary. The hon. member for Terra Nova. MR. LUSH: The minister again set up a committee to look into the whole issue of intraprovincial ferry services within the Province.

I wonder if the minister can indicate to the House today whether tha~ committee has advocated any major policy change with respect to the operation of ferries and what time can the members of this House expect to be presented with that committee's report? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. minister. MR. BRETT: Mr. Speaker, ~ey have recommended some very, very major changes and that is what Cabinet will be discussing within the next four or five days and as soon as Cabinet makes its decision I will be making a statement in the House. MR. LUSH: In four or five days we will have it? MR.

BRETT: There is going to be a special Cabinet meeting. I do not know, it will be in a week or so I guess. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for La.Poile. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, my question is f. or the hon. the Premier. Sir, the Minister of Mines and Energy (Mr. Barry) managed to get out through the fog up to Ottawa and met with his counterpart up in Ottawa. But my question does not have to do with that.- ~e han. the Premier committed himself in this hon.

Bouse about a week to ten days ago that any proposal put to Ottawa in writing in connection with the offshore resources would be tabled in this House, would be presented to this House before the document was brought to ottawa. What has happened to that promise, that commitment that the Premier made? 4062

May 15, 1980 Tape 1563 EC- 1 MR. S. NEARY: Did the minister, indeed , make a presentation on behalf of the Province in writing and 1 if so, why was it not presented to the House either the day that the minister went to Ottawa or before he went? MR. SPEAJ:ER (Simms) : 'l'he hon. the Premier. PREM:rER PEC!CFORD: A copy of it, Mr. Speaker, is down in my office on the desk. I did not have a chance to go back to my office ., on the way in because I was over at a T.V. interview and I came on up here and my raglan is in there on the floor because I wanted to get in here for Question Period.

But the copy of the letter that puts this whole matter in perspective from government's point of view is on my desk and I will have somebody go down and pick it up and table it in a few minutes. I want to do it. I could have done it yesterday but I did not know if the hen. the Minister of Mines and Energy (Mr. L. Barry) would get to Ottawa and what the story is. 'l'ha co-ordination is there. It will be tabled in a few minutes. MR. S. ~: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the member for LaPoile. MR. S. NEARY: Another eza~~~Ple of breakdown in c:oumunications.

We were led to believe in this House that tha document would be presented to the 1llltlllbers of the House before - Al!l BON. MEMBER: No ~ s. NEAR!': - well, that is my impressi.on of what the · hen. gentleman said. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. S. NEAR!': And I now want to ask the hen. gentleman vbat he thinks of the -tinq? Was it a success? Are we on a disaster course, as the papers b&ve indicated? - -· - MR. r.. TBOMS: A serious threat t:o Confederation. MR. S. NEAR!': A serious threat to Confederation as some of the papers have indicated?

Has the minister reported back to the hen. the Pralier, and if so 1 what does the hon. gentleman think new of the route of Degotiatinq a settlement? 4083 ·-

May 15, 1980 Tape 1563 EC - 2 MR. SPEAKER (Simms): The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: The Minister of Mines and Energy (Mr. L. Barry) can answer the details of the meeting he had. It would be perhaps worthwhile for the minister so to do in a few minutes.

My own overall view of the situation is - and, of course, the minister and I spoke about it this morning and partially through lunch hour - on the ownership of mineral resources and the claim that the federal government has on that and the claim that the Province has on it, I think the minister would indicate, and has indicated to me, that the present minister in Ottawa is not inclined towards having the federal government relinquish its claim, but as I understand it, the minister will be bringing that whole matter to the Cabinet or to the Prime Minister. so that is number one.

And in line with that, may I just say that at the same time as our Minister of Energy was meeting with the Minister of Energy for canada {hon. Marc Lalonde) and almos~ - I do not know if it was the same hour, but the same day, I guess it was - the Prime Minister COIIIIIitted in a speech in Quebec that right a£ter the May 20th referendum they would work towards constitutional change and reform. And that is a fairly significant commitment in my view. The Prime Minister had indicated on a number of occasions thinqs towards that end.

Now, every province in Canada, as I understand it, has asked for constitutional reform and some form of renewed federalism - every Premier. 4084

May 15, 1980 Tape No. 1564 so - 1 PREMIER PEC!CFORD: All the political parties in canada represented now in the House of COBmOns 1 except tile Liberal Party .- the N- Democratic Party and the Pzoqresaiw conaez:vati'ft Party of canada, all of the provincial. qovernments represented by their Premiers, Interqove~ntal Affairs and Energy ministers 1i all haw supported that one of the tenets that is crucial to m acceptable, ren-.d federalist constitution would be the ownership of .tneral. resources on the cxmtinential shelf belonqinq to the provinces. So I would look upon Mr.

Aalonde' s stat-nt yesterday of qoinq bac::k to the Cabinet with it,in connection with the statement that tile Prime Minister said yesterday, in connection with what all the provinces and political parties except the federal Liberal partY, what they are sayinq ,that we are on a proper and orderly course towards havinq somethinq subst~mtial done in our favour on that issue. On the pricinq issue, it is still fairly well up iD the air.

On the whole question of the trmalllission of alectr:ic:ity throuqh Quebec from Labrlldor, our loqic: is impeccable , 'Co"- - -- CIIft not be arqued with and I think the Minister of Mines and Energy (Mr. L. Bany) c:ould mport that his logic was so impeccable that there was very little response froa the federal _ E~e~ Minister, that the MinUter of Enerqy had done his m..woJ:X, . dona his job with the dOClliMint he pnaented hare and that we an on extr-ly safe qround ~ i_l::_. nlatea to logic, constitution and yo11 na.e it. It is just -~~ter, aqain,for a will.

I have written the Pri- Minister and I will be tablinq a doc:aBaat on Monday or Tuesday of nest week , a dft:ailed ~nt as it relates to federal/provincial relationa,or I can do it - other t.t.e. I would ~L~ilte to nad .into the record, --. -·· . . -· . - --··- if the bon. --lllber does not aind, to -fte Prime Minister, a CIDPY of which wu delivered by the Minister of Mines and Enerw (Mr. L. Barry) for Nevfi51mdland to the Minister of Energy for Canada yesterday. "My dear Prime Minister, I refer to the aqre.-nt between the Province of N-tbundland and Labrador and 4085

May 15, 1980 Tape No. 1564 so - 2 PREMIER PECKFORD: the federal government as embodied in my letter of August 23rd, 1979 to Prime Minister C1u!te and his letter of response of September 12th, 1979 confirming Newfoundland's ownership of offshore resources. You will note by these two letters both governments fomally agreed that their positions in this matter would be goveml!d by four basic principles which, for your convenience, I attach hereto.

"Given the nature of these undertakings by the federal government under the signature of the Prime Minister, I naturally asstlllle that your administration will feel bound by the agreement so reached. "Accordin~ly, the province stands ready to proceed with the secondary but necessary step of drafting a detailed agreement between our two go'9e:mments embodying not oilly these four basic principles but also those cellateral issues which any important matter such as this ineviblbly gives rise to as well as any legislation necessary to ratify the same.

"In view of the '9ery important oil disco'9ery at Ribemia, we must proceed speedily and diliqently in this -tter. Accordingly, I suqqest that a -•tinCJ between us is necessazy before tgpl-..ntation talks can begin at the ministerial or official le'981 .- • MR. S. NED!': You are qoing to tmle that? PREMIER PECJ::!'ORD: Yes. •so that our mutual c:o...:i.a.Dt to the iiiiPlG!enta.tion of the u:istinq aqre-nt between the two qovunments cu be -de clear. In view of this, I will be a'9llil.able Oil - a. date and ~pl- c:oaveaien~- ta you ·. Sincerely yours.• 4086

May 15, 1980 Tape No. 1565 EL - 1 MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : The hen the member for Tcrngat Mount- ains. MR. G. WARREN: Yes, Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Transportation and Ccnnunications. In view of a recent aircraft accident in Makkovik, Labrador, a couple of days ago,to .n air- craft owned and operated by Labrador Airways, _ eould the minister advise us if the cause-if he is - ieft -to understand that the cause of this accident is because there was not proper maint .enance done to the airstrip? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Transportation and Communications. MR. C. aRETT: Mr.

Speaker, I have been out of my office now for three days and I have not had time to be briefemby the staff , but they did mention it just quickly before I came here. It is my understanding that_ I guess the frost was coming out of the ground and it is a gravel runway 1 ,i.t is not paved,so therefore it is soft and I think the aircraft went through. Now there is some question rand maybe the hon. member intends to come up with a supplementary 1 there is some question about some member of the staff or a staff member - there is only cne,I think-beinq laid off who probably should not have been laid off.

It was my ~erstanding that he was not. I think we intended to keep the gentleman on as long as it was felt necessary. However, to answer· that avea · if the staff ~ had been kept on, there is very little, I think, that can be done, in a case where frost is coming out of the ground and it gets soft. You cannot bring boulders in ~ -~~ -- !11 airstrip like _ ~at. 'l'bere is a certain kind of stone that ~ - -- -- -- . ---- 1110uld- h&-98-to be put there 1 ., __ _ I 110ul.d like to think it was 1110re

an act of God than negligence on the part of the Departllent of Transportation and 4087 --

---;·- May 15, 1980 Tape No. 1565 EL - 2 MR. C. BRETT: Communications. MR. G. WARREN: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : A supplementary, the hon. the member for Tornqat Mountains. MR. G •. WARREN : Yes, Mr.

Speaker, there is probably an answer. to my supplementary 1but I would like to remind the minister that it was not due to frost colllinq out of the qround, -- because actually there waa a snow storm there on the weekend in which several inches of snow fell.APd I understand in a letter from the minister on the l 7th of April that he did state that the heavy equipment operator would be kept on and I do further understand that the operator waa laid off back on April 22nd and this is the reason, that the Department of Transportation had not kept the operator workinq at the airstrip.

I am just wonderinq if the l:linister will ensure that an operator will be hired on within the next few days to make sure that that airstrip is brouqht up to standards for aircmaft qoinq in and out of Makkovik. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. minister. MR. c. BRE'l.'T: Mr. Speaker, if it is necessaey .it will not take two or thz:we days. We will have hilll on tomorrow morninq. MR. SPEAJCER: The bon. the me!llber for St. Barbe • .l!R. T. BENNETT: . Mr.

Speaker,my question iii to the Premier and his answer to my bon. colleaqqa from WPalle a little while ago there, sort of .is, ~ ---;---p~le. it miqht bel ;:partly the question I would like to ask .the Premier. My question to the Premier miqht very -11 be a little premature and,of course, Mr. Speaker, we only qat quest­ ions thAt we can ask in this bon. Bouse because of our exposure to our district~~, at least that is the way I feel, or the exposure we qat to the outlyinq areas.

First of al~-; I would like to make it quite clear Mr • Bremier, that I, myself, and the people around -, &nd I think all the hon. people in this House want to haw a flaq. We would like to see some­ think that would relate to the Province. 4086 -

Hay 15, 1980 Tapa No. 1566 DW - 1 HR. T. BENNETT: In his design we see nothing that is British, nothing that is Canadian, nothing that is Newfoundland. MR. SPEAKER (Simms): Order, please! The hon. member has a question? MR. T. BENNETT: In view of all the ramifications with regards to the flag,with regards to the offshore oil, gas, fisheries, with regards to the present cod war that seems to be building- then are questions being asked ------- outside -and I would like to a·sk the Premier would it be fair to suggest, Mr.

Speaker. that we ourselves might be heading toward a sovereign state 1 not only Qu~, but ourselves, Newfoundland,would we ourselves be heading in that direction? MR. SPEAKER: "The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: That is absolutely - if there is anybody in this House who ever raises that kind of issue, you know, I will be four sqaare against it.

I mean,the hen. member takes me by surprise by even suggesting that this Province - you kno~ all of these issues, I hope that the hon. member feels as strongly as I do about the fact that we just want the same rights to transmit electricity as other people in Canada have to transmit ~il and gas. I hope the ·hen. me.mber feels the same way about us owning but sharing the oil and gas the same way as provinces now own and share their resources. And I hope he feels the same way as I do about the fact of trying to reduce unemployment in East and Northeastern Newfoundland by the access to add;~i~~~l codfish.

That has nothing to do- and the flag is to be a distinctive representative~of Newfoundland and Labrador in 4089 -

May 15, 1980 Tape No. 1566 DW - 2 PREMIER PECKFORD: that we are honourary,solid members of the Commonwealth and solid members of the Confederation that we would like to see renewed in certain instances.But nobody should ever misconstrue that inside or outside of this House as any lack of resolve that our partnership in the world community is reflected through our nation and through our Commonwealth is any less than it has ever been .

I am one of those,as I said in .m-r to the question: earlier on the question of the Canadian Legion, I have been as a person, for eaample, closer to the Canadian Legion and have done things with the Canadian Legion as a government and as a person, and they can -~~~-~or that, than any Premier has done since 1949. And I would suqqeat to the other pre.iera not to thrown anything negative on them - they had far more reason because of theiT age and all of the rest of it to be far closer to our past and our heritage than I would be.

But I have on many occasions been told by people who are older that I have a far greater attach­ ment to those things than other people who are much older than I am and I will continue to have that. And I reassert the desire on behalf of myself as Premier and everybody on this side towards being vibrant members of a Commonwealth and vibran.t, ·,strong members of a Canadian nation. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! 4090 -------- -- --·-·-· --- ---- -- - ,.• .•

.L May 15, 1980 Tape No. 1567 NM- 1 MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : We ha ve time for one final, quick supplementary, about forty seconds remaining in which to answer. MR. FLIGHT: A question to the Premier, Mr. Speaker. In view of his very rational approach in answering the member for LaPoile's (Mr.

Neary) question, I wonder would the Premier agree that the minister's approach, or the purported approach in today's paper that is being read all over Newfoundland, where he indicates that a solution to the offshore would have to be according to the way he sees it, or his government sees it, or it would be a threat to Confederation, is that kind of a public line conducive to resolving the problem and getting an agreeable solution to the problem? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: You are bringing in the minister's statement and I would like for that minister to respond. MR. SPEAKER: The hon.

Ministar of Mines and Energy. MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, ehere were enough cameras and recording devices around after our meeting•that if anybody wants to check they will find that my reference to a serious problem for Confederation in the event it is _not_resolved referred to i:;__ _ __ _ ott-a _ ~d Alberta do _not arri- at. an ~~nt: :Wi.tll. __ :r:e!~ _ct t? _oi?- pricing. And my conunents with respect __ to_ _a._ seri.ous problem for Confederation, despi.te the story which I see ~l!ld __ i:n bo~ pa~zs o'V'IItr C!"~ -~~ incorrect. I might say, however, Mr.

Speaker, that I did make it clear to the minister , I did make it clear that I was very concerned from the sentiments that I have been receiving in letters in my office, that if the federal government attempted - -, to run roughshod over this Province's rights, that if the federal government did not live up to its commitment to a renewed federalism,that we would see a disenchantment with Confederation. And I think that that is fair enough. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please~ The time for Oral Questions has expired. 4091 -

May 15, 1980 MR. G. OTTENHEIMER: MR. SPEAKER: (Simms) MR. O'l"'l'ENHEIMER: MR. SPEl.KER: SOME HON. MEMBERS: Tape No. 1567 NM - 2 oco Mr. Speaker The hen. Minister of Justice. I wonder if we could revert to tabling. Is it aqreed? Aqreed. PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES: MR. OTTENHEIMER: It is not reports as such,but hon. members will recall an undertaking with respect to a pamphlet outlining the basic principles of the Matrimonial Property Act, and I would table it as a means of having it distributed to hon. members.

And also this is due to go out through household mail to every household within the next several days. ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS FOR WHICH NOTICE HAS BEEN GIVEN: MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Transportation and Communications. MR. BRETT: Mr. Speaker, to several questions actually.

A question asked,I am not sure if- it is on May 9th., or May 12th., by the member for Eagle River, and the question was - two questions, a question in _two parts-how many ferries in the-Province are receiving provincial subsidies,and could the minister list the prices and the amount of subsidy each received, and the population of the centres? The answer to the first

part is eight, and the places are Bell Island - Portuqal Cove, the subsidy is $1,188,000. 4092 ~

May 15,1980 Tape No. 1568 AH-1 MR. BRETT: The population is 7,000; St. Brendan's to Burnside,the subsidy is $105,000 and the population is 650; Greenspond to Badger's Quay, the subsidy is $113,400 and the population is 450; Fogo to Carmanville,$181,500 and a pppulation of 4,000 people; Change Islands to Farewell,$120,000 subsidy and 600 population; Little Bay Islands and Long Island-st. Patricks,$250,000 subsidy 1100 population; Woody Pointi Norris Point and St. Bonne Bay $110,000 subsidy and 3500 people; and Ramea-Burgeo-Grey River $110,000 and 3600 people.

The other question was also from the member for Eagle River (Mr. Hiscock); Has the government evaluated its air subsidy programme to Labrador Airways from st. Anthony to Mary's Harbour and points on the Labrador East coast and, two, has the minister been in contact With Labrador Airways with regard to this subsidy and what is the result of the negotiations and when can we expect the minister to make an official statement with regard to the air subsidy?

The first question,the answer is yes;to t-!_l_e_ s~!'n~_on~.!. our officials have contracted Labrador Airways to advise tiuat -effecti.,_).9Bo 04 30 government will discontinue its financial support towards the operation of this service~ Of couxse -·--.. they 'knew that when they started, and I had not intended to make any official statement on it because it was an experiment that we tried, I guess government will sort of take a look at the whole thing and probably somewhere down the road in a month or so we may have to decide whether we are going to continue or if we will not subsidize it any further. MR.

SPEAKER (Simms) The hon. Minister of FinAuce. DR. COLLINS: Mr • Speaker, on the Order Paper of Friday, April 25th is Question 13 in the name of the hon. member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) to ask the hen. Minister of Finance (Dr.Collins) to lay upon the Table of the House the following information, a list ----- --. of names of individu~s-~or=~es who received lo .&JI& from the 40 -93 -- --·-------- - .-.....

May 15,1980 Tape No. 1568 AH-2 DR. COLLINS: Newfoundland and Labrador Development Corporation and the purpose for which the loans were granted. Prior to 1977 , Mr. Speaker, it was the policy of the Corporation,which is a federal/provincial Corporation,not to release the names of such companies, but by agreement between the federal government and the provincial government in 1977 a revised policy was adopted whereby such names were released and I would . like to table the names of individuals and companies for the dates from April 1,1977 up to and including March 31,1980. MR.

SPEAKER (Simms): Perhaps someone from the Table would like to take the material. Further answers? ORDERS OF THE DAY Motion, second reading of a bill, "An Act To Adopt A Flag ForTh~ Province". (Bill No. 44) MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Social Services. SOME HON .MEMEERS: Hear, hear: MR . HICKEY: Mr. speaker, I do not wish to delay the proceedings very much.

I commenced my few remarks on TUesday afternoon and I think I should just put in perspective the reasons, some of the reasons,at least,why government and the majority of members on this side of the House support, as well as eome of our honourable friends on the other side support.this design for a provincial flag. I said then, Mr. Speaker, that I had the privilege of introducing a bill in the House some three or four years ago recommending a design for a provincial flag and that design had the small Union Jack in the upper left-hand corner, the provincial emblem in the center on a white background. And, Mr.

Speaker, a number of orgaDizations and a number of people in this Provine ; opposed that 4094 ...__

May 15,1980 Tape No. 1568 AH-3 MR. HICKEY: desi91t, some of tlle people--wo opposed that design on th~ grou:nd$ that it was not distinctive, it did not a~tely represent our history, our past, it was not a proper desi<pl for a provincial fl4g, oppose this flaq,which gives rise, ~. Speak$r, to $e question as to what ldnd of des.ign co'Q.l.d any organi.zation~group, sel.ect c¢Diaiittel!l or anyone else produce in this frovince which would meet the a-pproval of 4095

May 15, 1980 Tape 1569 EC - 1 MR. T. HICKEY: the greater majority of those people who feel strongly about a provincial flag or any change in the system that we have or the situation that we have right now. In other words, Mr. Speaker, a lot of those people, whether they want to acknowledge it or not, would . prefer to maintain the status quo, hold on to the Union Jack. Mr. Speaker, as a former Minister of Recreation, it ca111e to my attention in the most vivid manner the embarrassment that some of our young people, soma of our best athletes, were. faced with in competing in national and international events.

Whe.n any colour guard representing Her Majesty or the Governor General appeared on the scene, this Province, the only province in the country, including the two territories, did net have a flag to fly. We were without a flag. The Union Jack has to be taken down. Because naturally, Mr. Speaker, the Union Jack is the flag of Great Britain. It is the flag that is flown insofar as any official visits by the Govarncr General or in this Province , the Lieutenant-Governor. Therefore , Mr.

Speaker, even with the official flag, as we call it, the Union Jack, I do not lcnow - in fact, I have not bean iiDle to find out if there is anothar country or territory in the world that has borrowed a flag of another country and taken it as the flaq for that territory or province or country. So we are in a unique position, there is no doubt iiDout that. That is why, Mr. Speaker, that we have always felt stronqly on this side the need for a distinctive provincial flaq. People who suqqest, Mr. Speaker, that this desiqn does nat represent our past, our history, our culture, thAt is quite debatallle, Mr. Speaker.

Right on the paper that we have depictinq the duiqn, it shows clearly how it was put toqether based on public h&arinq, based on submissions 1 briefs , dialoquea , all brought about by a select Coaaittee representative of this t.eqislature - not this qovernment, nat this party that sit .on this side of the House, but both parties, the entire Legislature, and so we have a desiqn that the Committee felt acceptable to than based on their findings in terms of all their meetings and discussions that they hald throughout the Province. 4096 ...........

May 15, 1980 Tape 1569 EC - 2 MR. T. HICKEY: Mr. Speaker, one of the arguments against the design and the bill which I introduced some three or four years ago was in fact to allow the people ta have some input through a Select Committee. We went and did that, Mr. Speaker. The result is this design from a Select Committee. AN HON. MEMBER: w"hat happened to the other one ? MR. T. HICKEY: Never mind that one. We all know what happaned. .to that one,Mr.Speaker. That died on the Order Paper.

And the reason that died on the Order Paper was because of so.e of the arquments put forward and that the government was not determined enough to put that flag through this House despite the fact it had a majority and could have. But 1again, it listened to some of the critics who suggested that the people outside this Legislature should indeed have some input. Now, Mr.

Speaker, we have heard of railroading, we have heard of ramming this down the people's throats, I ask the question, 'Says who?' How can this. design based on the way it came to us !=}lrouqh the public meetings, through the efforts of a Select Cclllaitt.;. - hc. can th&t be aver inte~reted as ramming it down the throats of our people? Surely, Mr. Speaker, is it not one of the responsibilities of a government to deal with such issues? Is it not the chief responsibility of any administration to govern the affairs of this Province? Is that not what we were elected for?

Are wa to be assumed to go back to the electorate every time that we = against or = into an issue which is controversial 4097 ~

May 15, 1980 Tape No. 1570 ow - 1 MR. T. HICKEY: or becomes controversial? Are we to take the easy way out, M~. Speaker , and say no,government is not going to act for fear it might make a few bad friends, that it might lose some support. that it might reap some criticism? Is that what we are to do and in so doing abdicate our responsibility as a government? I suggest, Mr. Speaker, it is not. And I suggest that that )is one of the reasons why this govern­ ment is decisive and is determined to govern the affairs of this Province.

Not unmindful of the feelings and the point of view of the electorate,and never let it be said that we are unmindful or unaware or unconcerned, we have asknowledged that by indeed setting up the process of the Select Committee which resulted in this design. Mr. Speaker, the Royal Canadian Legion i~ an organization that has the respect and high regard of the: people of this Province.

And as one minister I know that for ~cod reasons,becausa there is hardly ever a month of the year or maybe even a week of the year that I am not made aware, through my position, of the good work done by the Royal Canadian Legion for our less fortunate citizens, for their 0wn membership, their own veterans and for people throughout this land. Never let it be said,and never let the issues be con- fused,that this government is unaware or not appreciative of the efforts and the good work done by this organization. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh~ HR. SPEAKER (Simms): Order, please! MR. T• HIC!CEY: But, Mr.

Speaker, I find myself a little disheartened,similar to the sentiments as expressed by the member for Port au Port (Mr. Hodder) a few days ago when he indicated or quoted a statement by some member of the Legion in which the suggestion~was made that there would be an organized effort to defeat any M.H.A. 4098 .. -

!-lay 15, 1980 Tape No. 1570 DW - 2 MR. T. HICKEY: who supported this flag. In the document that we have rece~ved today, Mr. Speaker, there is not that statement. But at the end of the statement, Your Honour, there is this following statement and I will read it, 'I assure you the electorate will remember the manner in which this decision is made'. Now, !-!r.

Speaker, I just want to address myself to that statement and I hope that I read it right because I do not read into that any threat and I do not read into that any suggestion of a denial of the right of freedom of expression, freedom of our own opinions and freedom to do the things which we think best. And I do not read any of those things into that statement. And I hope, Mr.

Speaker , for the sake of that tremendous organization that I just referred to and all of 'the good work that it ~oes, that there is nothing like that embodied in the suggestion made by someone or ~ome member of that organi&ation some days ago. Because, Your Honour, that would be a sad commentary indeed. For as those people displayed their courage, some of them in making the supreme sacrifice and those_who came back having gone over- seas to do what, Mr.

Speaker. to ensure that all of us could live in a land which was free, who could live in a land where there would be freedom of expression, freedom ~~ -~R~~ch, freedom of choice and all of_~hose ~ood things 1 sar~y ·- goodness one is not to read .in anYthing·the Legion aaye with regards to the design of this flag that there is ~o be anything less than they fought so hard to preserve. Mr. Speaker, let me conclude my remarks by saying I have no 4ifficulty in adding my support to this design for a provtncial flag. I have good reason, Mr.

Speaker, to take the stand that I take for the simple reason, as I said 1I am ~cutely aware of the embarrassment that some of our athletes have been 4099 -

May 15, 1980 Tape No. ·i571 SD - 1 MR. T. HICXEY : exposed to at international and national events. I am acutely aware that embo~ed in this design is indeed our past, our present, our future. I aa also very much aware, Mr. Speaker, that there is no suqgestion, no decision to remove the Union Jack from our Province. The union Jack will continue to fly as the flaq of the COil'IIIOnwealth, as tha Maple Leaf will fly as the flaq of this country. we, therefore, Mr. Speaker, are not asltinq that any less loyalty be affoxaed the union Jack or the Maple Leaf.

We are simply askinq that some loyalty be skown to this our flaq when it passes this House. I do not think, Mr. Speaker, that is too DIUCh to asJt. Let 111e conclude finally b]l saying Uis, that any flaq, and there are many in the country that are not distinctive- what would one, for example, interpret of the flaq of British Colllllltlia, the sunset or sunrise?- surely that is not peculiar only to British Colllllltlia. SOME BON. MEMBERS: Oh, on. liN HOH. MEMBER: (Inaudible) azound here. MR. T. HICJCEY : Mr. Speaker, let ma suqqest that any flaq - MR. SPEADR: Order, please! MR. T.

BICla!:Y: - will deaand loyalty r when it h our - ;...r • - flaq and this daaign ,which will be our flaq,will ''get that loyalty, I suqgeat, from all of our people in tilDe when it bacoMa our provincial flaq. Aa ona of the lllilitary paople said in the Canadian Forc:es when they -re presentad with the Maple Leaf, "If this flaq does not nave any ni•tory,let us qift it so-." ADd, Mr. Speaker, let - say that whilst this design is syd)olic of many, IDDY t.hinqa in oar Province,to thoM who find no history in it, let them have a little patience.

And with all of the problems that we face in this PJ:?V!-:riC!! -~~th the briqht future that we have, they will not ha- to wait too lonq indeed before this flaq will have plenty of history . It is with this thought in mind that I qi ve fll'/ full support. SOME HOK. MEMBERS z Hear, hear. 4100 h- ..... ,0:::.--" --- ----- ---·- ---------- - ..

May 15, 1980 MR. SPEAXER: (Simms) MR. S. NEARY : hard fouqht debate. AN RON. MEMBER: MR. S. NEARY: MR. L. STIRLING: MR. S. NEARY: Tape No. 1571 SD - 2 The hon. the member for LaPoile. Mr.

Speaker, this has been a lonq and Member.!/ ' ea>tions have - tisen. - .tisen over the last week or t-.n days - Not much in the last week or so. - ~I suppose ,lookinq back at day one in the fl.aq debate, t:he day I draped the black crepe paper on my dest. out of IIICNJ:ninq for the people of this Province 1 not out of mouminq for the onion Jack or the canadian Leqion or anythinq else, but: out: o"f the fact that the qowmment were defyinq the people of this province, the qowrnmant -ze not actinq as they should as servants of the people of the Province, I suppose you can say that I was the first casualty of the fl.aq debate.

On that, Mr. Speaker, I have no reqrets because in my opinion black flaqs should fly all owr this Leqislature and all over this Province. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Bear, hear. MR. S. NEARY : And every lllellbez:~ should haw a black flaq or black crepe on his desk. This is not, Mr. Speaker, a matter _of the Canadian Leqion and the Union Jack or the Union Jack versus the n­ flaq0 This is a red herrinq that IIDY -.l:>ers on the ga'ftmment benches have draqqed into the debate. And the speaker who just took his saat, Mr. Speaker, dragqed in another zed herrinq.

I could not belie,.. whet I heard the hon. l!lllllbar say when he said ho. ash-.4 he felt when he -t off to various sports activities when the athletes froa Newfoundland had no fl.aq to car:r:y. The hon. qentlem.an said, "They had no flaq to carzy. • They could not carry the union Jack because it did not identity with NewfOUDdl.and. Mr. Speaker, , 4101

May 15, 1980, Tape 1572, Page 1 -- apb MR. NEARY: how ignorant can you get? Or how stupid can you get? I remember another gentleman in this House who used to say that you can almost forgive a person for robbing a bank, you can almost forgive a person for committing a serious crime, but you cannot forgive a person for stupidity. And I cannot forgive, especially a minister of the Crown, to stand in his place in this House and say he was ashamed because the athletes could not carry a distinctive flag of Newfoundland.

Well, I want to point out to hon. members of this House that in the process of debating this new flag that we are taking away a flag that we already have, a flag that has been a distinctive flag in this Province since 1927, I think it was, and the statute that made it the flag of this Province was revived in 1970.

Chapter 244,"An Act Respecting A National Flag For Newfoundland And Colours To Be Worn By Vessels." And in case hon. gentlemen do not believe me, and I believe, Mr. Speaker, I am in order, if Your Honour would check the Flag Debate in Ottawa, that I am in order by holding this flag, this Newfoundland flag in my hands. I know I am not allowed to drape it over my desk, but just in case the hon. minister who just took his seat, or hon. members on the opposite side do not think that Newfoundland had a distinctive flag, well, there it is! There is it, Mr. Speaker. MR. WHITE: A ~ice one 1 too. MR. NEARY: There it is. MR. FLIGHT: It is a big improvement . 4102

May 15, 1980, Tape 1572, Page 2 -- apb MR. NEARY: A much nicer looking flag than the one we are debating now. MR. WARREN: Right on! MR. NEARY: That is the national flag of Newfoundland. MR. W.N.ROWE: The Premier has to leave, look. MR. NEARY: And the Premier has to leave at the sight of it. He cannot stand the sight of it. MR. MORGAN: He cannot stand the sight of the hen. gentleman, I would say. MR. FLIGHT: No, he cannot stand the sight of the flag. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, this is what we are doing away with, this distinctive Newfoundland flag. ·we are doing away with this and replacing it with a rag that you would not polish your shoes with. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. NEARY: We are tearing down this beautiful flag,and then the members on the government side have the face to stand and tell us that they were ashamed because the athletes from Newfoundland could not carry a distinctive Newfoundland flag, and there it is. Now, Mr. Speaker, I have also heard it argued in this debate that you cannot get a flag that will satisfy everybody in Newfoundland.

Well, that is a slick piece of rheto~l~. Maybe you cannot get a flag that everybody in Newfoundland would agree with, so what you aim for, Mr. Speaker, is a flag that at least is acceptable to 51 per cent of the people of this Province. MR. WARREN: Right on! Right on! MR. NEARY: Who said you need a flag 4103

May 15, 1980, Tape 1572, Page 3 -- apb MR. NEARY: that has to be 100 per cent acceptable? Who said that? It is the government members who are saying that and that is deceiving. You have to get a flag, a design that will be acceptable to at least the majority, a simple majority of the people of this Province. And then we have heard it argued that the Pearson flag - look at the furor and the fuss that was caused about the new Canadian flag, the Maple Leaf. Mr.

Speaker, I would sublni t that that argument is phoney, that that argument does not hold water, because the Canadian flag had a Maple Leaf on it, something that you could identify with Canada. There is nothing on this monstrosity we have before us in this Province to identify in any way, shape or form with Newfoundland. Now, Mr. Speaker, we have heard considerable argument about how this is a free vote and how the Committee went around the Province and did such a magnificent job. And nobody dare question it, 4104 - ":· .. ,:; ' ;-;,:>t;;p

May 15, 1980 Tape No. 1573 NM- 1 MR. NEARY: nobody, except 1that is,only the member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary), who took the time to go to the Legislative Library to see how hard the Committee worked, to see how many places they visited, to see how many briefs were presented in writing and to see how many briefs were presented - or how many suggestions were made orally. Well, the Chairman of the Committee is right. The Select Committee visited twenty-six communities in Newfoundland, twenty­ six, no argument with that. Out of the twenty-six communities, Mr.

Speaker, that the Committee visited, and one was a non-scheduled visit, by the way, really officially they were only supposed to visit twenty-five communities, but they made a non-scheduled trip to Valleyfield, that was unscheduled. So you cannot say they scheduled officially twenty­ five communities. But anyway,let us assume that they visited twenty-six communities and they did, the total number, listen to this, Mr. Spaaker, the total number of communities, of scheduled meetings, at which briefs were presented totalled-how many waul~ hon. members say? Anybody want to take a guess.

O~t of the twenty-siXoAt bow many of theae twenty-six scheduled meetings were written briefs presented, or oral briefs for that matter? How many? Anybody want to take a guess? MR. FLIGHT: Twenty-five. MR. NEARY: The hen. gentleman says twenty-five .. Any takers on twenty-five? Well 1here is the answer, Mr. Speaker; out of twenty-six communities visited,twelve meetings were held, twelve briefs were presented. AN HON. MEMBER: No interest. MR. NEARY: I am going to deal with that no interest bit shortly. AN HON. MEMBER: Poor advertising. 4105

May 15, 19.80 Tape No. 15 73 NM- 2 MR. NEARY: There were fourteen scheduled meetings, fourteen scheduled meetings, 50me of which did not take place. The Committee went there in a rush and visited the schools in a couple of instances. There were fourteen scheduled meetings that either did not take place; if they did take place 1 no briefs were presented. And I can give you a list of them in case you want to argue about it. In St. John's, Wabush, Happy Valley and Nain briefs were submitted. In Hopedale and Davis Inlet the Committee took advantage of their visit to visit the schools.

That is all that happened in Hopedale and Davis Inlet, Mr. Speaker. In Makkovik,a brief was submitted. In Harbour Breton 1 scheduled meetings, no briefs. In Burgeo_ we heard my hon. friend from Burgeo -Bay d'Espoir (Mr. Andrews) get up the other day and talk in favour of the flag- in Burgeo, no briefs; Port aux Basques, briefs; Gander and Grand Falls, briefs. AN HON. MEMBER: people of Port aux Basques. MR. NEARY: - Fogo, listen to this, Mr. Speaker, Fogo, Twillingate, Greenspond, Valleyfield,... which was unscheduled, as I said, Valleyfield~ Fogo,meetings at school, Twillingate, no briefs. MR. W. ROWE: MR.

NEARY: That is because nobody knew about it. Greenspond, no briefs. Stephenville and Corner Brook, briefs or submissions were presented. In Clarenville, Bonavista, Harbour Grace, no submissions. Placentia and Grand Bank, briefs; Marystown and Bell Island, no briefs; St. Anthony, no briefs. Now this is the Committee, Mr.

Speaker, that went up around this Province sounding out the people to such a degr~e that the government are now hanging their hat on the fact that the Committee had done such a tremendous job, that they have gotten such a great reaction from the people of this Province, that _<3,~c;:J;:!l_9.Y_ has spoken. They are now hanqing their hat. MR. 1fAR11EN: On a sky hook. MR. NEARY: On a sky hook 1 as my hon. friend said. 4106

May 15, 1980 Tape 1574 EC - 1 MR. s. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, let us take a look at the attendance at the meetings. And this is not speaking about the members of the Cowmittee in , a derogatory way, but the argument has been used,and it has to be pushed right back at the government, because it is government members who are using this argument about the Committee. A norrpartisan CCIIIIIi.ttee, they are saying I went around the Province and eventUally ended up with this monstrosity we have before us. Well, let us sea now what happened in st. John's. Mr. Aylward, Mr. Carter, Mr. Thoms, Mr. Walsh and Mr.

Hodder attended the meeting. In Wabush, Mr. Walsh, Mr. 'lhoma, !".r. Hiscock and Mr. Aylward attended the meeting. And in Happy Valley, Mr. Walsh, Mr. Thoms, Mr. liiscock, Mr. Aylward and Mr. warren attended the meetings. In Nain, Mr. Hiscock, Mr. Warren and Mr. Aylward, three people, went to two meetings in Nain and Makkovik. In Port aux Basques, the c:api tal of the Southwest Coast, Mr. Carter , Mr. Hodder and Mr. Aylward attended the meetings.

And listen to this 1 in Gander - and~ hen. friend has not spoken in this debate yet - in Gander the Committee thought so much about getting the views of the people of Gander, of finding out if there were any hard feelings in Gander one way or another on a flag - would hen. gentlemen care to take a guess how many members out of seven members of the Select Committee wound up in Gandar at the public meeting they held out there? Does the hon. minister know? Well, the Committee thought so highly of getting the views and the feel.inqs of the people of Gander that two members - AN BON. MEMBER: What, two ? MR. S.

NEARY: - went to a maeting in a hall where ncbody lcn- there was being a meeting held. AN HIE. MEMBER: In Gander? MR. s. NEARY: I:n Gander, one of the biggest ~ties in Newfoundland, fastest qrowinq town in Newfoundland. MR. WHITE: 'lha crossroads of the world. MR. S. NEARY: The crossroads of the world, Gander - two II!BIIIbers, Mr. Carter and Mr. Aylward. AN HON. MEMBER: Boy, oh boy, oh boy! 4107

May 15, 1980 Tape 1574 EC - 2 MR. S. NEARY: In Corner Brook, the West Coast capital of Newfoundland, four attended -Mr. Carter, Mr. Aylward, Mr. Thoms and Mr. Walsh. In St. John's at another hearing, Mr. Carter, Mr. Thoms and Mr. Aylward attended. In Grand Bank, down where my hon. friend is laying his political reputation on the line - does my hon. friend know how many members of the Committee - I believe he should - how many members of the Committee went to Grand Bank to get the feelinqs of the people on the Burin Peninsula and in the Grand Bank-Fortune area on this new flag? . How many? MR. L. THOMS : MR. S.

N~: he did not even qo himself. MR. L. THOMS: MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : Grand Bank. MR. L. THOMS: Tell me. Well, I can tell the hon. qentleman that . A point of order, Mr. Speaker. A point of order, the hon. the member for I was waitinq for the point of Grand Bank before I qot into this, but aa a point of - really I guess more a point of clarification, I would like to advise my hon. friend from LaPoile (Mr.s.Neary) that when these meetings weJ:e baing held, particularly the one in Grand Bank, I happened to have been in a body cast and could not travel. MR. w. ROWE: That ia right, I will vouch for that. MR. w.

MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, to the point of order. MR. SPEAKER: of the Council. MR. W. MARSHALL: To the point of order, the hon. the Presidant I -would just like to underscore the point of order, Mr. Speaker; that it is unfair, I think, for the bon. member. This is an example ot the way the hon. member operates. Now he is operating against his own colleagues. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. W. MARSHALL: I would point out from his own statistics that the one thing I do qather f:rom it is that the hon. the member for Kilbride (Mr. R. Aylward) went to every meeting, which shows the way he represents his constituents. 4108

May 15, 1980 Tape 1574 EC - 3 MR • . SPEAKER (SilllllS) : With respect to the point of ord.er , I would rule there is no point of order bq.t the hon. the member for Grand Bank (fj!..r. L. Thoms) has simply taken the opportunity to clarify r8lllarlcs • MR. S. N£ARY : Mr. Spealter, I ae~;:ept my hon. c::ollea911a' s explanation but I just wantl to pc)ut out to him that there wexe three other ~s apart from hiluel .f who lllllSt have been in body casts. SQME J!Clf. MEMB!!RS: Oh, oh! MR. s. NEARY: Because theJ:"e were onlr i;hree - Head c:asta. AN RON. .MEMBElt. MR. S. HEAR!' : - either a head cast or a body cast. B~e there were only 4109 ---------

l'.ay 15, 1980 Tape No. 1575 EL - 1 MR. S. NEARY: three members of the Co111111ittee who went to Grand Bank, Mr. Carter, Mr. Walsh and Mr.Aylward. Now, Mr. Speaker, that raises some very interesting questions indeed. Because the govern­ meAt, as I said, Mr. Speaker, and I hate to be repeating myself, are hanging their political lives, their future on the activities of this Committee and as hon. members can see, Mr. Speaker, the Committee's activities leave a lot to be desired. What they did, they did it well, I will grant them that, what they did was alright.

I have no complaints about it and,as I say, my remarks are not meant in any way to be derogatory to the members of the Committee. But, certainly, Mr.Speaker, the activities of the Committee leave a lot to be desired and it explodes the government's argument that a thorough investigation, that a thorough fact-finding study was done throughout this Province before they arrived at the stage where they brought a bill into this House supporting this monstrosity. .And let me see what the hon. member for St.John's North(J.

Carter) at all of these meetings, and this is typical of all the meetings that the hon. gentleman attendedr -· let us see what he said in his introductory remarks and I will use the meet­ ing in Gander as a typical example,and I have all the Hansards here, Mr. Speaker, and I have gone through them all and I can tell you that what I am going to quote from the meeting in Gander, you can find it in any one of these briefs •where the hon. gentle- man attended a meeting. You will not find it in them all 1because the hon. gentleman did not chair all the meetings • ....

But whilnr .tha Chairman of the Committee did chair the meetings, here is what-he said. He says,' I represent the district of St. John's North, this is Bob Aylward, Jje represents the district of Kilbride. We are the only tvo MHA' s here tonight and this is Neil Penny, our Clerk of the Committee, and Terry connors, who is recording 411 0

May 15, 1980 · Tape No. 1575 EL - 2 MR. S. NEARY: clerk. Bob is also secretary of the Committee. We must apologize that more of the Committee did not turn up but they have good and sufficient reasons ranging from medical reasons to political reasons" - medicalreasons to political reasons; - • So we are the vanguard, as it were. If the amount of interest or if the amount of work that is required tonight is greater than can be handled in any one session, we are certainly willing to oome back and do another session. The relatively small public turnout is not indicitive of the amount of interest shown.

Bob can tell you that there has been a tremendous amount of mail and written submissions and graphic submissions. Some of them are good; that is to say, some of them qu~te finished, ,others juat bare sketches that h.ve to be brought up by a proper graphiCs artist. So we will end this whole set of hearings .. with a massive amount of mate~i~"'"'~- which is a gross exageration, Mr. Speaker - " which is beginning ,. ,"' --· to repeat i~ _el.f. _ ~ - ~ feel that we are getting as much or as many· · ideas as ,are foxmed. ADd, then he goes on to say - let us see, ~ key to this opening statement.

Here is what he says, let me see where it is, ~ I thi.n)c DDst reasonable people,1'-'I wUoome you here tonight,' 'the emphasis should be informal'- oh, yes, here it is. "As soon as the Committee was formed we &at down and agreed quite quickly on five IDil.jor principles and they are that the new flag should be simpl~, \ should be attractive, i:t should be distinctive-as soon as it is raised, J'ou should be able to say, 'this is the Newfoundland flag!.and listen to this'~'i _~. should be acceptable to the majority as far as we are able to JUke it acceptable to the majority, and it llhould contain our traditions!

Every meeting the hon. gentleman attended, the hon. gentleman repeated that the flag IIIUst be acceptable to a majority of the people of this Province. As it turns out, Mr. Speaker, the majority of the people of this Province object to this ·naq and this desiqn. AN HON.MEMBER: Bear, hear. 4111

May 15, 1980 Tape No. 1575 EL - 3 MR. S. NEARY: And yet, the government persists for some unkno~~ reason of ramming it through the House. Now, Mr. Speaker, at that meeting in Gander, what else happened? 411 2

May 15, 1980, Tape 1576, Page 1 -- apb MR. NEARY: What else happened in Gander? Well, there was a gentleman there by the name of Peckford - it just says in this, Mr. Peckford - who made some awful, awful statements, derogatory remarks against the Canadian Legion and against the Union Jack. And if the hon. gentleman does not believe me I will give him the transcript to read. And this was the first time, Mr. Speaker, this was the first time that the triangles were raised, the triangles that are now in this new flag, raised at this meeting in Gander.

If you thumb through the transcript you will see interruptions and interjections all the way through it. The Union Jac~we are told by this gentleman who is recorded in this transcript, the Union Jack represents fifteen dollars a month and the Canadian Legion are nothing only soldiers ano sailors, . and said we should have triangles in the - one triangle representing Labrador and one triangle representing the Island of Newfoundland. And that is when the triangles were first raised. And there is where the idea came from for the triangles in the new flag. I am not going to dwell on that, Mr.

Speaker, except to say that a flag should be something other than a family affair. MR. WHITE: (inaudible) probably struck dumb. MR. NEARY: It should be something that represents tho ~Laditions, the heritage of this Province and something that is acceptable to the people of this Province. So, Mr. Speaker, Newfoundlanders cannot understand why the government are proceeding with such haste in trying to get this new flag approved. At the outset we said that the government were trying to 411 3 -

May 15, 1980, Tape 1576, Page 2 -- apb MR. NEARY: head off controversy, they were trying to head off people who objected to this flag before they got a chance to get organized and to a certain degree they have been successful. One common denominator that I hear in this House, outside this House, 'Give us more time. If you feel the flag will grow on us give us a little more time. Do not go so fast. Slow down. Do not ram it down our throats. Give us more time.' And so, Mr.

Speaker, in order that people may have more time, in order that members who feel that the government is rushing the bill through the House too quickly, I would like to move an amendment, Mr. Speaker, and my amendment is that the bill be not now read a second time but that it be read a second time this day six months hence. SOME HON.MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER(Simms): I will reply, please, before I recognize the han. gentleman. I should like to have a look at the wording of the amendment. MR. NEARY: Seconded by the hon. the member for the Strait of Belle Isle (Mr. Roberts), Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: LaPoile.

MR. NEARY: The amendment is in order. The hon. the member for Well, Mr. Speaker, this is, in effect, what is commonly known in parliamentary circles as the six month hoist. r do not like that term myself, I do not like what it implies. In this particular case all we are asking for, all the people of this Province are asking for, is an opportunity to study the flag, to make further recommendations, to have more input 4114 - -- - --- ----- - -- --- ~ - - ~

May 15, 1980 Tape No. 1577 NM - 1 MR. NE.'Ucr : into the design of the flag. And, Mr. Speaker, you would want to be deaf, dumb, blind or all three in this Province today if you did not realize that ninety-nine per cent of the people are opposed to this design. Most people that I talked to want a distinctive Newfoundland flag, including the Canadian Legion,and if they had gotten an opportunity to make their speech before the House they would have told members of the House that they would go along with a distinctive Newfoundland flag, but not that thing that was unveiled here two weeks ago, that horrible design.

Even the Canadian Legion are saying, "Give us a chance to have a little input in the flag, the new flag, and we will go along with a distinctive Newfoundland flag." You can hardly go to the shopping malls today, Mr. Speaker, you go to church on Sunday, you go to the shopping centre, you walk down the street, you go down in the cafeteria of this building and everybody but everybody is buttonholing you and saying, "Whatever you do, stop that horribe flag from being accepted by the House." ·Are members completely out of touch with their constituents and with the people of this Province?

They must be the way they are defying the people. The people, Lord, the people, not crowns and thrones but men. God save the people. MR. WARREN: Right on. Right on. MR. NEARY: The government have their majority in this House because of the people. They are servants of the people. MR. WARREN: Never again. MR. NEARY: And they persis~ in less than a year, that is, Mr. Speaker, and they have forgotten that it was the people who sent them here. It was the people who gave them the majority, to be their servant, not the people to be the servants of the politicans and of the government.

It is a sad and pathetic sight indeed, Mr. Speaker, to watch one member of the government side after the other, 4115 -

May 15, 1980 Tape No. 15 77 NM- 2 MR. NEARY: stand in his place in this House and defy the people. Some of them have not had the courage yet to get up . MR. WARREN: That is right. MR. NEARY: Some are trying to hide their - MR. WARREN: He is the Premier. MR. NEARY: - hide their views of this flag, including the hon. Premier, and the bill is in the hon. gentleman's name and he would have been happy this last two or three days if the Minister of Tourism and Recreation (Mr. Dawe) had closed the debate while he was sitting in his seat.

What could be more pathetic and sad than to watch the man who introduced the bill into the House for this so-called flag, sit there and try to get the debate choked off while a bill is being debated in his name. MR. WARREN: Terrible. MR. NEARY: words cannot describe it, Mr. Speaker. It is unbelievable that a government could become so arrogant and hold so much contempt for the people in such a short time. MR. WABREN: The t:Une will come. MR. NEARY: The people, Lord, the people, not crowns and thrones but men. God save the people. Mr. Speaker, the 1:1ember for Baie Verte­ White Bay (Mr.

Rideout) , who portrayed hill!self as such a hero a month or so ago 1has not spoken in this debate yet, trying to hide his feelings from the people. At least my hon. friend, the member for Grand Bank (Mr. Thoms}, and the member for Port au Port (Mr. Hodder} , and the member for Eagle River (Mr. Hiscock), had the courage to stand in this House and expound their views on the flag. The member for Pleasantville (Mr. Oinnl, who is a member of the Canadian Legion, has not had the courage to stand yet. MR. OINN: I am next. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, they are all next now that 411 ,6 ~

May 15, 1980 Tape No. 1577 NM- 3 MR .~: I am up. But the ML"lister of Tourism and Recreation (Mr. Oawe) had been on his feet th..-ee times to close the debate and the Premier would have been very happy, and very pleased if the debate had ended. ~!R. WARREN: Right on . !tight on . MR. NEAR'!: Get it ove .r with. f!ea d off the controversy. Head them of,f at the pasa. 411 7 ...

May 15, 1980 Tape 1578 EC - l MR. S. NEARY: The member for Port de Grave (Mr. R. Collins) has not spoken in this debate yet and the people are waiting in Port de Grave. I have had mora calls from that district, Port ~ Grave, and Harbour Grace,than any other part of Newfoundland, where there is a strong, strong feeling for the Union Jack. AN HON. MEMBER: Not much of a feeling for the member. MR. S. NEARY: And not much of a feeling for the member after this. The member for Harbour Main -Bell Island (Mr. N. Doyle) has not got up on his feet yet and told us where he stands on this flag.

But they will all stand up and be counted, Mr. Speaker, before this debate is over. And the member for Naskaupi (Mr. J. Goudie) has not got up and spoken yet. We have had two members from Labrador speak in the flag debate, but the member for Naskaupi bas not spoken yet. MR. J. GOUDIE: I will be up. MR. S. NEARY: Oh, no, he is going to get up now, Mr. Speaker, but if the Minister of Tourism and Recreation (Mr. R. Dawa) had shut off the debate, as they hoped would happen, that we were all qoing to collapse over here - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. s.

NEARY : - they would have been so happy that they would not have to get up, they would not be forced to stand in this House and take a stand one way or the other. And the member for - is that Hmnber East or Humber West? - the old Status of Women spokesman in this House, who will get up and talk about anything when it comas to the status of W01111111, but has not qot up yet and had a few words on this flag to tell us where the bon. minister stands on the flag. I have a few pieces of correspondence here from Corner Brook, from Deer Lake and Fortune - Hermitage - AN HOR. MEMBER: (Inaudible) • MR. s.

NFARY: I thought the hon. gentleman was up on his feet already. Or did he - no, it was something else. Oh, oh! SOME BON. MEMBERS ; MR. S. NEARY: The hon. the member for Fortune - Hermitage (.Mr. D. Stewart) has not had the courage to speak. 4118 .-...

May 15, 1980 Tape 1578 EC - 2 MR. S. NEARY: They will all be up now , Mr • Speaker. I will wager you a bet before the vote is taken on this bill that they will all be up on their feet and they will all zero in on me. They have had their go at the Canadian Legion, they have had their go at the -"'.anarchist League, they have had their go at the people, now they will all get up and it will all be blamed on me. Just watch! I will bet you a dollar, Your Honour. SOME HON. MEMBERS : SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. S. NEARY: Oh, oh! Hear, hear! And the member for Humber - West, is it? - and the ~&ember for Gander (Mrs. H.

Newhook) - Why has not the member for Gander stood up and been counted? I have had a few phone calls from the hon. minister's district over this monstrosity that we have before us that you would not wipe your shoes with. The member for Ferryland (Mr. c. Power) has not stood in his place yet in this House and told his constituents who have a loyalty to the Onion Jack where he stands on the flag. HR. F. STJ\GG: What do you want (inaudible) MR. S. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, we have had government members and ministers stand and tell us that this is the most important thing that ever ClUie before this House, it is the most important thinq ever to face the people of this Province, and over half of the government members have not spoken in the debate. Where is the member for Manihalt (Mr. P. Walsh) ? MR. F. WHITE: He is a war veteran. MR. s. NEARY: A member of the Canadian Legion, a veteran~ Why has net the hon. gentleman spoJtan in this debate? And why has not the member for Trinity Noi:th (Mr. c. Brett) spoken? AN HeN. MEMBER: MR. S. NEJI~: and Burqeo -Bay d 1Espoir.

SOME E!ON. MEMBERS : MR. S. NEARY: Fortune - Hermitage. Well, I mentioned Fortune - Hermitage - Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker, the fact of the matter is that they were hoping that they would be able to hide their feelinqs, that the people of this Province - that the vote would take place, the flag would slip through and the people would not find out, Well, the people are 4119 .-...

May 15, 1980 Tape 1578 EC - 3 MR. S • NEARY : qoinq to find out. Everybody on this side has spoken for or aqainst. Every man on this side has had the couraqe of his convictions. There is nobody left only me and the Opposition House Leader, and tlle Opposition House Leader will not be lonq when he will be in the debate. Every one of us to a man have taken a stand one way or another. At least the member for St. John 's Centre (Dr. P. J, McNicholas) had the courage to stand up and say he wa.a going to vote against this rag! SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear~ MR.

S • NEARY: It is not very often we aqree on thinqs, but we certainly aqree on that. Mr. Speaker, never before in the history of this Province has there been such a furore and such a fuss caused over one single issue than is caused over this flaq and the government, especially the Premier, turns a blind eye and a deaf ear to the people. He says, "Take it, people. 4120 ---------- - --

11ay 15, 1980 Tape No. 1579 DW --1 MR. S. NEARY: You are going to take it whether you like it or not. I am Emperor Brian 1 I am going to force this on you. It will grow on you just like a pimple on the back of your neck, that will develop into a boil and burst ~1 Mr. Speaker, I do not have very much time left. I wish I could talk for a week on this matter, Mr. Speaker. But I do want to say, S~r. that talking about the Monarchist League they did a more comprehensive study of the feelings of the people cf this Province than the Select Committee did with all due respect to my colleagues and to the C'CIIIIIIittee.

The Monarchist League of Newfoundland circulated a paper requesting the retention of the Union Jack to 300 communities in Newfoundland. They say that they felt that there was no time to canvass Labrador. Now listen to this, Mr. Speaker, within a six week period they rec:ei.'ftd answers and th~ list of 1 signatures here is attached back from 104 communities - MR. L. THOMS: 104? MR. S. NEARY: 104 compared to twenty-six of which briefs were presented to less than half of the scheduled meetings. One hundred and four communites for a total of 8,237 signatures. Is that to be ignored, Mr. Speaker?

Are the views of the Royal Canadian Legion to be ignored? The hon. gentleman got a standing ovation at a meeting,he spoke to a Royal Canadian Legion in Corner Brook I believe it was. Four or five hundred people gave him a standing ovation. And now, Mr. Speaker, they are awfully, awfully disappointed with the hon. gentleman, with the arrogance of the hon. gentleman. But now he has become so arrogant and so full of himself, so full of himself he thinks he is riding so high that he can force a flag on the Newfoundland people and they·will forget about it when the election rolls around.

And make no bones about it, Mr. 4121 -

May 15, 1980 Tape :-lo. 1579 o~; - 2 MR. S. NEARY: Speaker, that this is a government measure. It is the government that calls the shots! The government decided there was going to be a Select Committee, the government decided this flag was going to be the flag of Newfoundland, the government decided that a bill would be brought into the House. It is a government measure! And I hope nobody will ever have any doubts about that. And if the hon. gentleman thinka the people are going to forget about it by the next election, well, then , he had better think again, Mr.

Speaker, because I can tell the hon. gentleman that it is an accumulation of blunders, an accumulation of mistakes that causes the downfall of governments. The hon. gentleman has made three distinct and glaring blunders in the last several months. Number one, he told the people of this Province that he would never live in MOunt Scio House, he would continue to live in an apartment and the next thing we know he is up on the hill with . $118,000 of taxpayers money, the only Province of Canada - $118,000 to furnish it and renovate it and put up nice , new drapes for the .hon. gentleman.

And his thanks to the people of this Province, his thanks for giving him a nice, comfortable residence up on Mount Scio ·Place to liw in - - ----- is to -~- it _back in __ tJ:teir faces by _fo~cinq this flal] on them tha~ they do not want. That is his ~ thanks. His next blunder was with the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) when the Public Accounts Committee found the hon. gentleman guilty - MR. W. MARSHALL: MR. SPEAKER President of the Council. MR. W. MARSHALL: A point of order, Mr. Speaker•. A point of order, the hon. The ~bon. gentleman is speaking to a motion he has before the House of a six month hoist.

He is now obviously getting into areas which are - 4122 --

May 15, 1980 Tape No. 1579 ow - 3 :-IR. W. 1-!ARSHAIJL: Lndeed they relate to his per- ception albeit that it is a bent perception of affairs but t~ey are not of interest to the particular amendment that :te has proposed. MR. SPEAK&R (Butt): To t~e point of order, I would rule there is no point of order but would like to point out to th.e hen. member for LaPoile (!1r. Neary) that relevancy is very difficult to define but I do think he is straying somewhat from the subject and would ask him to refer his remarks to that issue. ~I!L S. ~lEARY : Blunder number three, :-lr. Speaker, is the flag.

That is blunder number three. T!lree serious blunders in a row.And, Mr. Speaker, I would submit there 4123 -~~--.r,_.--:o-~- .... -.--:-:--- ---~ :< .. ·.:~.:~{ --

May 15, 1980 Tape No. 1580 SD - 1 MR. S. NEARY: is another blunder coming up in connection with the offshore and the Northem cod stock - that will be fiw blunders in about a year. .1\nd it is an acciJIIUlation of mistakes and bluddering that will causa the downfall of this administration amongst which will be the flag, liaybe the flag alone, maybe that issue alone will not defeat the qovemment.

I happen to think that it will go a long way in bringing dawn this government and showing them up for what they are , a bunch of city slickers who think they c11111 foist their opinions and their ideas on the people of this Province. Mr. Speaker, in ewry meeting I beliaw that was held, bar none, there wen two groups of people who stuck out at these scheduled -etings. There was the group who felt we should zetain the Onion Jack. That group was quite larqe throughout this Province.

Then was mother large q%0Up who maintained that we should have a distinctive Newfoundland flaq with the onion Jack in it • .And if you put these two ~oups together, Mr. Speaker, you have get a fai:r chunk of the population of this Province but the eo-ittee and the qo-z:DBmlt and the P~ier chose to ignore that fact and all they c- up with wu a bunch of triangles and squares that •an nothing and then they tall us not to get e1110tional about it. The flaq is with us forever, when you pus a flaq it is with you forever, at leaai' that is what they think. Mr.

Speuer, I will make a pledqe to the people of this Pro'ri.nce riqht now and I haw not consulted my colleagues on this. Maybe the Liberal Party in the Fall of the year will ha- a leader who will say, "No, no, you can not do that. • .1\nd I illll qoinq to say it riqht now and I will do it 1 and if I say it, I will •u it 1 that the qo-mNDt -y use their -jority to r&lll this flaq through the Bouse of Assellbly but the ..-nt the qo-m..nt chanqas, Sir, if I - in that qowm.ent that rag will come dawn off the flaqpolea of this Province. SOME HON. MEMBEBS : MR. S. NEAR!': iD many Bear, hear.

First of all, it will not be flown 4124 -

May 15, 1980 Tape No. 1580 SD - 2 MR. S. NEARY: corners in this Province. If it is put on the public buildings then I will say I will do whatever I can as lonq as I am alive in this Province to haul it down off the flaqpoles in front of the public buildings in this Province and replace it with SOIM!thing that is synonymous with Newfoundland, something you can identify with Newfoundland, something alonq the lines of the Maple Leaf.

And bon. gentlemen ha'll! also used the arqu~~~ent,by the way, 'Oh well' - I have heard them over there trying to prop themselves up by saying, "Oh -11, so!N! people said a Newfoundland dog, some people said a caribou, s011111 people said the Union Jack." I say, so what to that. That is no arqument. It could be one of any dozen of things as long as you can identify with Newfoundland and as long as it is symbolic of Newfoundland, represents our heritage and the traditions of this Province, Mr. Speaker. The flaq is an emotional thing. You have to have feeling for it. This thinq leaves you cold.

You have to have feeling for a flag, how can you talk about a flag without getting emotional? MR. G. WARREN: That u what tt. ar:row is for. MR. S • NEARY : We haw some o'll!r there with the face of a robber's horse tell us, "Oh, do not qat emotional, do not qet this way, do not qat that way." Now, haw can you not get e~tional when - ---- · you watch an arz.ogant qo'll!znment with a m&jority, )!busing their llllj_?J:i~ in c the Bouse. It would almost make you sit down and cry, let alone qat emotional. "Going to brinq ~c~acy to N-foundled," they told us.

This is the ezowd that boasted llbo1K ~ ~racy wozk now st:abbinq the people in the bclc.. KR. G. WARREN: That is what t:hll ar:row is for. MR. s. HEARY: That is what the ar:row npresents on that fl.ag.- a stab in the back for the people. MR. G. WAR!IElf: Riqht on, right on. MR. S. NEARY: Now, when I sit down , when I take r:y seat in a f- minutes they will all be up on their feet one after the other and they will try to answer the indefensible arqaments that I put fozward, completely indllfensible, Mr. Speaker.

The statistics and the facts and the fiqm:es that I laid on the Table of the House c- from 4125 ........._.- _,

May 15, 1980 Tape No. 1580 SD - 3 MR. s. NBAD': the Leqislative Library. The hon. Dellber for st. John's North (Mr. J. Carter) cculd almost be accused of llli•leadinq tbe HOuse in his report, and as I say, that ia no reflection on the a.mbe~ of the COIDiittee. I haw a qxell't deal of r:espeet ~ :z:eqard for my friend as I dQ for the _.,.r for Port au Port (Mr. J. HOdder) and the JDed)er for Eaqle IU.-r (Mr. B. Bisoock) and I adllixe thea for their stmd bat at least they had the couraqe to take a stand. '111ey will all be up nov, Mr.

Speaker, I cu s• them, one after the other ;md they will lower the debate, you j at watch 1 Your Honour, they will lower the debate. '!'hey will get on to 4126 ......__ ---

May 15, 1980 Tape No. 1581 EL - 1 MR. S. NEARY: the personal attack. It will not take them long before they will lower the decorum of this Rouse. Mr. Speaker, it is very,very sad. When we think of the · sacrifice so many men and WOIIII!D made in this Province, when we think of the great history of this Province. We are the oldest, Mr. Speaker, the oldest civiliaation in Marth America, right here in this Province. Nobody was here before us except the Indians. When John Cabot came over there were people here. Re met Indians. When Christopher Columbus came over he1.met Indians.

But, the Irish and the Scotch and the French and the English that came here under extreaely difficult circumstances and conditions, made us the old- est ciVilization in North America. And can anybody show me where that is recognized :in that rag that you would not wipe your feet with? Mr. Speaker, I am for a distinctive Newfoundland flag. I like the Union Jack. I love the Union Jack. I love the . :white ensign but _I_am inclined to qo along with the majority of the people,that we should have a distinctive Newfoundland flag. But, I do not think we should have that flag. MR.

HANCOCX: You are not 'VOting for it, are you. •steve' ? MR. S. NEARY: No, I am not 'VOting for it, that is for sure. But , I know, Mr. Speaker, that out there 1 out there in voter land , out there in the rural parts of this Province, down in Grand Bruit, LaPoile, pidogin :l:nlet, Makltovik, Forteau, Foqo, Bell Island, St •. Mary's, all over .• this ProVince people are saying, '!'or God's sake, do not pass that flag. Do not in&Ult the Newfoundland people by forcing people to fly that flag over public building-s in this Province. Do not insult us • Do not do it •. For God's sake, COB! to your senses.

Rave you taken leave of your senses?' Mr. Speaker, I wish I .ould repeat s0111e of the remarks that have been made about that flag. I wish I could repeat some of them. I wish I could read some of the letters that I have here. 4127 ---

May 15, 1980 Tape No. 1581 EL - 2 MR. S. NEARY: I would be named. I wish I could quote from that meeting in Gander, from Hansard that I have here,to see some of tail language that was used at that meeting. Feelings can be expressed without becoming obscene, without becoming unparliamenury and rude. It is very difficult in this kind of a debate, Mr. Speaker, to restrain yourself especially when you look at the arrogance of this government and the contempt they have for the people of this Province. Mr. Speaker, a flag must be a very stirring sight as it flies in the wind. It must be a very stirring sight.

People must have feeling for it. They must have emotion for it. You must be almost prepared to lay down your life for it if you have to. Can you imagine, Mr. Speaker, my hon. friend, the member for St. John's East Extern(T. Hickey), says the athletes will be able to carry this. t.ookt They will carry it in fro11t of them. When they are going off, leading the parade, there is what they will have in front of them. Look! Now, that is something for the athletes of this Province to carry in front of thelll. That is something, is it not? You can really identify that with Newfoundland.

The hon. gentleman would be proud, now, to see a bunch of athletes going off carrying that in front of them, woW.d he not? MR. HICKEY: MR. S. NEARY: Why would they not c~ that ? Because you hold it in front of you when you are marching down the cinder track, do you not? There is the way it would be. AN BON. MEMBER: MR. S. NEARY: AN HON. MEMBER.: down to look at it. MR. S. NEAIU:: Oh, oh. That would be somathing, would it not? You would have to strUn your heads You would be expecting the ground to blow out from under JIOU with the rocket or whatever it is. ~126 ---.

May 15, 1980 Tape Np. 1581 E:L - 3 MR. S • NEARY: ,l:t would be nice now to go into battle, Mr. Speaker, God forbid, if we ever had anpther ~ld Wilr and I hope that we neveJ: wUl, and I pray that we never wU1 ,1 Ilut, let us say we did, Mr. Speaker, l-et as say we did, and we sent our soldiers off on the battlefield anci here they are qoinq wit}! this ~inq in fl':.Ont of ~em. The enemy would think it was a secret weapon, a"lnew secret weapon. '!!hey had the. ~ 4129 --.

May 15,1980 Tape No. 1582 AH-1 MR. NEARY: missiles there at the end of the Second world War and that is what that looks like, the Second World War, the unmanned missiles. What is it they are called? V-1, V-11. That looks li~ a V-1 , V-11 only that is V-111. v \ The enemy would think it was some kind of a secret weapon. It is absolutely ridiculous, Mr. Speaker. Words fail me to describe it. And as far as Mr. Pratt is concerned ,there is evidence in these transcripts that the member for St. John's North (Mr.J.Carter), the Chairman of the committee, had been negotiating with Mr.

Pratt long before the Committee hearings ended, Long before they ended Mr. Pratt was working on this flag, long before. They had their minds made up, maybe not all the members of the Committee but the member for St. John's North(Mr.J.Carter) had his mind made up because he had discussed this matter with ~I. Pratt and he had told Mr. Pratt of the feelings of a gentleman in Gander and the Premier that we should have triangles in it. There is evidence in all the transcripts. The hon. gentleman mentioned it himself at one of the meetings. So I say, Mr.

Speaker, I would hope that all members on both sides of this House would vote for the amendment. A vote for the amendment is a vote for democracy and a vote for the people. Why, Mr. Speaker, why would anybody want to vote against this amendment? Why? The only reason they would want to vote against it is because they want to force the thing through as quickly as possible. The Premier thinks that if he forces this through the Bouse with his majority that the people of Newfoundland will respect him for being a decisive Premier.

There are times when you can be decisive and there are times when you can be stupid and arrogant and in this case the people will not recognize the Premier as being a decisive Premier but a stupid Premier and an arrogant Premier and a Premier with nothing but contempt for the pecple. The people 1Lord 1people, not crowns and thorns but men. God save the people. SOME HON .MEMBERS: Hear, hear: MR. CHAIRMAN (Butt) : Is the House ready for the question on the amendment? 4130 ....._ x

May 15, 1980 Tape No. 1582 IB-2 MR. ROBERTS: Well, Mr. Speaker - MR. F.B. ROWE: Look,nobody from the other side. It is shocking. Shame! 1-!R. CHAIRMAN (BUTT) : Order, please! Before I recognize the han. member the Speaker would like to come in and announce the Late Show. MR. SPEAKER (SIMMS): Order, please! Although it is not quite five o'clock, rather than have to interrupt the hon. gentleman once he gets into his speech I can inform the House now that I have received notice of two matters for debate at five-thirty when a motion to adjourn will be deemed to be before the House.

Notice given by the hen. member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) arising out of a question asked the hon. the Minister of Justice (Mr. Ottenheimer) and the subject matter $2.9 million in a bank account in Hamburg, Germany for the sale of Labrador linerboard. The second matter for debate notice given by the hen. member for Terra Nova (Mr. Lush) arising aut of a question asked the hen. the Minister of Labour and Manpower (Mr.

Dinn) and the subject matter is canada Manpower Statistics as they apply to this Province in terms of employment levels in various industrial sectors and how close is the government approaching its target of 40,000 jobs. of Belle Isle. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR . ROBERTS: The hen. the member for the Strait Hear, hear! Mr. Speaker, before I go any further perhaps I could have a ruling on a somewhat interesting but I think relevant point. I have not spoken in the main debate.

I believe I am the only member on t.~s side who has not and I want to understand if Your Honour would be good enough to tell me whether I am now speaking on the main debate as the seconder of the motion or whether I am .speaking in the amendment debate in which case, of course, if I wish I would have the right to speak in the House once the amendment is disposed of. Now, 4131 .._

May 15, 1980 Tape No. 1582 IB-3 MR. ROBERTS: it is not of importance to 111e. I do not intend at this stage to speak l!Dre than ottc:e in this debate but I do want to ~ve it clear. I woul.d refer Your Honour, On the point of order, to 304 (

l) of Beauchesne which says, "The member who makes a motion may give the name of his seeonder WhO will, if necessary, indicate his consent, and the seconder will then be allowed to speak on the question". Well, the gentleman f.or LaPoile (Mr. Neary) made the motion and g:ave my Ilallle. I did not say anything until I was recognized by the Chair. I simply want to know whether I am gpeaking on trul: 111ain motion, Yo\IZ' Honour, or on 4132 ~ ---- -~·rt:·:::~.:;~';'O'"'r .;_~ .. ~~-' .

\ May 15, 1980, Tape 1583, Page ] -- apb MR. ROBERTS: the amendment, the six month hoist amendment. I mean, it is irrelevant to me as long as it is clearly understood that if I wish to speak on the main motion I may. I do not intend to, I will make it clear. MR. MARSHALL: gentleman (Inaudible) • MR. ROBERTS: (Inaudible) the bon. Well, I am speaking on the amendment. I would say to my learned from St. John's East (Mr. Marshall) there is this most interesting reference in Beauchesne that apparently the seconder of an amendment has the right to speak on the main motion before the amendment debate begins. MR.

MARSHALL: If the seconder does not - MR. ROBERTS: Does not say anything. MR. 1-'ARSHALL: - does not say anything. The seconder had -and I watched the hon. gentleman to see whether he said anything. MR. ROBERTS: And I learned that from no better teacher than the gentleman from Waterford - Kenmount (Mr. Ottenheimer) who once, as I recall it, Mr. Speaker, made his entire contribution to the Throne Speech debate when he was Leader of the Opposition by saying, 'I second the motion'. And I think he was hoist on his own petard and we all learned from that. MR.

SPEAKER(Simms): Perhaps if I could, for the sake of clarification in the future then, I would obviously rule so there would not be any difficulty in the future that if you have not spoken in seconding the amendment, actually speaking, then you may then speak on the main question afterwards. the Strait of Belle Isle. MR. ROBERTS: 4133 The hon. the member for Thank you, Your Honour. .._

May 15, 1980, Tape 1583, Page 2 -- apb MR. S.TAGG: (Inaudible) • MR. ROBERTS: Now, let me begin by saying to my friend and jousting partner, the learned gentleman from Stephenville (Mr. Stagg), that it will be his choice and those of gentlemen opposite - lady and gentlemen opposite - AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. ROBERTS: I am quite prepared, indeed anxious to address this matter seriously as I believe have all han. members who have spoken. But I am equally prepared, if the hon. gentleman should come against me armed as he is, whatever he is armed with, to reply to him in kind.

I would say that I have not throughout this debate, to my recollection, intervened. Now, I am not seeking mercy, I am not even; .asking understanding because that is beyond the gentleman opposite, but I would simply say, Sir, I would like to approach this in the same way as I believe most hon. members have who have spoken and those who have yet to speak and as I have throughout this debate. And I say that to my friend from Stephenville. I welcome his attempts to joust but I would say to him as his former leader John Diefenbaker once said, when I am after elephants I do not want to be bothered with rabbit tracks.

Mr. Speaker, our leader, the Leader of the Opposition announced that this was to be a free vote on our side and subsequent :!.:r· t.he Premier speaking in behalf of the government members announced it was to be a free vote and that is the way that I interpreted it, that is the way I have approached it and that is the way I intend to cast my vote when the time comes. 4134 ..._

May 15, 1980, Tape 1583, Page 3 -- apb MR. ROBERTS: I want to say that I, like any other hon. member, and I do not claim to be any better, and I do not think I am any worse than any other member of this House, that I have given this matter a great deal of consideration and I may say it probably caused me as much difficulty as any of the questions I have discussed and debated during my years in the House. I began the day the flag report was brought into the House with an extraordinarily strong predilection in favour of a new flag for this Province.

I am one of those and I suspect that we are the majority of the people of Newfoundland and Labrador but it does not bother me whether we are or not, because this is a matter where each of us stand~ as an i~dividual and says what he or her believes to be right. I began from that point of view because I am one of those, as I was saying, who wants a distinctive Newfoundland flag. And by Newfoundland I mean Newfoundland and Labrador. I want a distinctive flag for this Province.

And without in anyway derogating or being disrespectful of the Union Jack, I do not believe the Union Jack is that flag, I have never felt that. I accept it and respect it as the .. flag of the United Kingdom. It may even be the flag of the Commonwealth, but I not sure of that. I am not sure whether there is such a thing as a flag of the Commonwealth. There no longer is an empire. It is the flag of the United Kingdom, it is made up of the three Crosses of St. Patrick, 4135 ......__

May 15, 1980 Tape No. 1584 GH-1 MR. ROBERTS: St. Andrew and George, and as flags go it is not as old as some. It is not as old as the French Tricolore, it is not as old as the United States Stars and Stripes. The Union Jack, as we know it, was adopted, I believe, in 1801 when Mr. Pitt, Pitt the Younger, the then Prime Minister, succeeded in bribing sufficient members of the Irish House of Commons sitting in Dublin to vote in favour of

an act of union, and I think my statement is an accurate, historical statement. There were enough of the members of that House of Commons who were bribed in one way or another that they voted the Irish Parliament, as it then was, out of existence, and the United Kingdom of Great Britain became the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland. Until then, Ireland had been a separate possession of the British crown, cossetted as it had been by the treatment of Cromwell and the English. over the years.

While I am on that, let me say a word or two about the Canadian Legion and their role in this, and let me make it clear that I have no hesitation - indeed, I would be most upset with. anybody who challenged the beliefs of the Legion or their genuine sincerity with which those beliefs are held. I am glad that the Legion have not tried to pressure individual members, and I can only speak for myself but they have not tried to pressure me. I have had a telegram from the President of the branch at St. Anthony. That is one of the two Legion branches in my constituency, and Mr. Roy B. Pilgrim - there is a Roy A.

Pilgrim and a Roy B. Pilgrim and a Roy C. Pilgrim in St. Anthony and this is Mr. Roy B. Pilgrim- and he makes it quite clear that they disapprove of the flag, and I respect that and I am prepared to take it very seriously. but I am glad the Legion have not tried to pressure. I quite agree with my friend from Port au Port · (Mr. Hodder) who was responding to reports that were in the press, not from the Legion. Wherever they came from, they did not emanate from the Legion, reports that there was going to be some attempt to try to pressure some of us politically. I cannot think of anything 4136 a.-.

May 15, 1980 Tape No. 1584 GH-2 MR. ROBERTS: that would get up more quickly the backs of any one of us than that. What I have to say, I will say in the House and my constituents in due course will get the opportunity to judge, and if they send me back to this House that is their choice, and if they do not send me back that is their choice, too. But I am going to do what I believe is correct and then my constituents, in turn, and they will get the turn, will do wr-at they believe is correct.

Having said that, I want to go on to say that I do feel the government ought to have allowed the Legion to appear before the Bar of the House. It is not, in any way, Mr. Speaker, contrary to parliamentary tradition. It is certainly not contrary to the traditions of this House, and I would think there are numerous instances where individuals or groups have been allowed to appear, if one goes back. MR. NEARY: MR. ROBERTS: (Inaudible) Dalton Camp, the big Tory. Well, Mr. Dalton Camp certainly spoke in this House and spoke eloquently, with great eloquence and great tradition.

But many others - the present Prime Minister of Canada, Mr. Trudeau, spoke in this House. He was then the Minister of Justice. I would think if, for example, Mr. Joe Clark ever visits this Province aqain, if an invitation were to be suggested to be extended to him - MR. NEARY: Lord Rothschild. MR. ROBERTS: Well, Sir Edmond, he is not a Lord, Edmond de Rothschild. But, you know, it is not unique, and I do not think we are breaching any precedents or setting any traditions.

To those who say - to allow the Legion to speak would simply be to, you know, single out one group and how could you single out one group'2 I would simPly say that the next time one walks through the lobby of this building look up and look around, because there are, I do not know, forty or fifty flags hanging there from the Legion.

They have been there for about ten years now, and if the Legion is taken sufficiently seriously by the government of this Province to be allowed to hang in the main foyer, the lobby of the senior building, the home of the Legislature, the alleged seat of government, if they are allowed to hang the flags of their individual branches here then, surely, they have 4137 -------- -

May 15, 1980 Tape No. 1584 GH-3 MR. ROBERTS: already been given a unique status by the government of this Province, and I think in cum it would be fair for the Legislature to reflect. However, the government have, you know, rejected it out of hand. 'l'hat is certainly the government's prercqa1:ive, if that is their wish, as it is, and so I will not beat my gums further. I simply say that I tilink tile reasons they have given for rejecting it, which I submit are not the reasons why they have rejected the Legion's request, the reasons they have given lack intellectual honesty and lack intellectual weight.

Now, Sir, as I said, r do not ,feel the Union Jack is the flag of Newfoundl.and and Labrador . 4138

May 15, 1980 Tape 1585 EC - 1 MR. E. ROBERTS: There are those on this side who feel with equal fervor that it is. There are those on the other side, I assume, who feel with equal fervor that it is. I do not, I never have. It is the flag under which we were governed - or misgoverned for a couple of hundred years and I respect it for that and I am as conscious as any and perhaps more conscious than most of what that flag stands for, what it stands for in our heritage. We are Anglophiles by heritage. I am an Anglophile by inclination, very mucb. so. I am wearing court clothes.

I appeii!!"::d today in one of Her Majesty 1 s courts. The laws of this Province and the traditions and the spirit which underly those laws - and I believe the system of law is as fine as we know in this world. It is English to the core, Sir. The clothes that we wear in court, the very clothes, Sir, are modelled on the English practice and the law is shaped by England. Even to this day if there is no relevant law in Canada then one looks to the English courts and their pronouncements are taken with great - sometimes too great reverence by the ju~CJ:es who sit in this country.

And, of course, this House itself, Sir, is a little Westminster, it is modelled on Westminster. We ape Westminster. We consciously and deliberately and proudly model ourselves on the British parliamentary tradition. But, Sir, the Union Jack is not our flag. It is not my flag. It is part of our history, part of Newfoundland's history and a proud part, but it is not our flag, Sir, any mere than it is not the flag of Canada. And I, for one, would be very reluctant ever to accept as the flag of Newfoundland a flag that had as part of it the Union Jack.

I do not say that against the Union Jack - other han. members feel differently - but I do not like the flag of Ontario, particularly. It has the _______ ,llDion Jack in it. It is not why I dislike it,but I do not like this business of taking s~body else's flaq and puttinq it in your own flaq. I like .. . the idea of havinq a flaq of our own. And I do not f-l in saying that that I am rejecting or in any way spurning the Union Jack, Mr. Speaker, I am simply saying that I accept it and respect it very greatly, very deeply, for what it is and I respect very mucb. the fact that the men and 4139

May 15, 1980 Tape 1585 EC - 2 MR. E. ROBERI.'S : the women who fouqht for this country fought under - I do not know what flags you fight under, I mean, I haw never seen a battle. There is a most interesting book by a man named John Keegan called The Face of Battle which hon. gentlemen might want sometime to look at. It tells you what battles are really like, and it is not the <Jlory and the horses and the trumpets, it is blood and mire and guts and a thoroughly unpleasant practice.

But, Sir, we fought for what we believed in. 'lbe men and women who fought, fought for what they believed in, and in many ways the Union Jack symbolized that. But I think it is, in my view, a misreading to say that the Union Jack has to be part of our flag. I realize there are those who are as genuine as I am and they are just as entitled to their view, as I am., but I do not accept their view, that is all I say. I de not share it. So, Mr. Speaker, I come to the point of saying that I want a distinctive flag.

And when the Collllllittee was struck I was as keen as anybody on it and I think they did as much as anybody could de. :r do not think we are ever going to find a desiqn•that is acceptable to eyery single N~oundlander, but I do think my friend for LaPoile (Mr. s. Neary) makes a very, very good point when he says we ouqht to find a design that is acceptable to at least a large proportion of the population of this Province. And that is what causes me the problem on this, Sir. Now, de I need to say as everybody else does and with equal fervor, that :r am a friend and admirer of Christoph~ Pratt?

In fact, a triend of llline and I had dinner with Chris and one of his d&uqhters at their home in Salmonier two days before the report ~ in. I did not see the flag, I hasten to say. I did not ask to and I wa.e not shown it. I do .DOt even know if there was a copy in Mr. Pratt's home at that stage. But I have known Christopher Pratt for IIIUlY, many years. we disagree on sane points and we agree on others.

In fact, I went up to see him with a view to purchasing, and he agreed to sell me, a copy of a print he has done called the Strait of Belle Isle, and I have . a veey obvioUs lind a very legitimate and a very deep interest in a print by that name. It is also a fine piece of work. 4140

May 15, 1980, Tape 1586, Page 1 -- apb MR. ROBERTS: So when I say that the design of the flag is what is causing me the difficulty I have I do not think anybody - and certainly if anybody did I would reject it scornfully - would say that I am somehow criticizing what I believe to be a very superior work of art . And I think it is . I think the design that was unfurled in this House a couple of weeks ago is a very superior work of art, it is Christopher Pratt. It is a Christopher Pratt. A print by Chirstopher Pratt, what are they worth now, $1,000, $2,000, $3,000 when you can get them?

The market puts the premium on them. Chrisotpher Pratt has become not just a Newfoundland artist, not just a Canadian artist, but we may be on the verge of seeing Christopher Pratt's career become that of an artist on a world scale. The man is superb. Not everybody likes his work. I do. But not everybody does. Lots of people would prefer a different style of art, and that is fine. So the design came in and it was unfurled and I have not said anything on it. In fact, I do not think any of my colleagues know how I am going to vote.

They may have opined or they may have guessed, but nobody knows including my friend the Leader of the Opposition with whom I obviously discuss a great variety of things, including political questions. MR. THOMS: money if you vote for it. MR. ROBERTS: I stand to lose a lot of I say to my friend from Grand Bank (Mr. Thoms) that I do not have to say, even at this point, how I intend to vote. I will be here for the vote and I shall certainly vote in the House. AN HON. MEMBER: He bets on everything. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! 4141 ------"----- -------

May 15, 1980, Tape 1586, Page 2 -- apb MR. ROBERTS: I say my han. friend from Grand Bank (Mr. Thoms) has made a number of bets over the years not all of which he has won. MR. W.N.ROWE: He bets on everything. MR. LUSH: He is out money too. MR. ROBERTS: I still owe the Premier a bet from the last election. I wish he would come to collect it, I have it for him. PREMIER PECKFORD: I went down to collect to but there was nobody home. MR. LUSH: He did not have it. MR. ROBERTS: I have it locked up.it is that valuable, securely,well.

I mean, when I hear the Premier sending people down to my place I certainly do lock things up. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. ROBERTS: But I assure him the wager is there and it wa ·s fairly won by him. PREMIER PECKFORD: If the han. member wants to bet on the grounds of that kind of comment again he may,and he will lose again, so it is quite all right. MR. ROBERTS: Well, I have bet many times and I will say I will pay my wagers and I will collect them. The most recent one I collected was a hundred dollars off Jim McGrath in Ottawa. And I am sure that the Premier would have agreed with Mr. McGrath's stand.

PREMIER PECKFORD: hundred dollars off him. MR. ROBERTS: I collected more than a Mr. McGrath bet that the Tories· would win the election in Ottawa. PREMIER PECKFORD: That was an easy one. MR. ROBERTS: Well, it was all I could get from him on it, he would not go any higher on the wager. 4142

May 15, 1980, Tape 1586, Page 3 -- apb MR. ROBERTS: However, the problem I have, Sir, is with the design and I am not even going to speak of it technically. I made some notes earlier about some feelings I have with respect to the technical aspects of the design. I was given by a neighbour and a friend of mine at the People's Republic of Hogan's Pond - I do not thin~ the gentleman minds his name because he wrote a letter to The Daily News and maybe The Evening Telegram and signed his name, Dr. Marshall Laird who is a world renowned authority on parasitology, and · absolutely world league, and Dr.

Marshall Laird came up to see me a couple of evenings ago, after the letter had been published, and brought me a picture he had cut from The Daily News showing Mr. Pratt holding a design of the flag on which Dr. Laird had sketched the same point that he made in the letter which was published, with his name signed .­ I am not breaching any confidences or any friendships - and that is that the design lends itself most readily to representation as a black fly, a species of the world with which Dr.

Laird is intimately familiar because I gather the black fly's main contribution in life is that is carries the parasites - MR. CARTER: Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. MR. ROBERTS: I say to the hon. gentleman from St. John's North (Mr. Carter) that if he and I never agree on anything else, we agree on that, that beauty is in the eye of the beholder. And what I am trying to say in my own simple,little way is at least one beholder has pointed out that this design to him speaks of a black fly which he may consider to be the most beautiful thing in the world. And the black fly's main role in 4143 r

M.ay 15, 1980, T~pe 158 6 1 Page 4 - .- apb MR . ROBERTS: the world other than nipping people is to carry the - it is the vector, a word I would commend to the hon. gentleman from St. Joh n's North (Mr. Carter), the vector for the parasite s to the study of which Dr . Laird has devoted his life or a la rge part of it. MR. NEARY: The tsetse fly (inaudible) MR . ROBERTS : I do not know if it is the tset se fly or not , I understood it is a black fly, but a fly is a fly is a fly to me . MR . LUSH: I has tee~~ like a chain - sa w. 4144 ---·-- -··-·" - .... -- -- ..... _ ............ . ....... -~.,... ... ~ ---- - -

~lay 15, 1980 Tape No. 1587 DW - 1 !-I.R. E. ROBERTS: ~ y problem, ~r. Speaker, is quite simply that I do not like the design of the flag. I have looked at it now for - MR. THOMS: tion to st. Mary's. l~R . E. ROBERTS: That is your last invita- Possibly it might be my last invitation to St. Mary's and if it is sob~it. I do not think for one minute that Christopher Pratt will do that, I mean, if he wanted to be against me we could certainly discuss politics where he and I have had some notable differences of opinion. He supported the party opposite - support-ed I have no idea of what he is doing now - i-IR. S.

NEARY: He also did the design for the Tory Party in the 1975 election. MR . E. ROBERTS: He did a campaign poster for them in the 1971 election which was a very spl~nded piece of art and very hard to come by but I had one in my possession for a while. MR. T. LUSH: did not know that. SOME . HON. MEMBERS: MR. E. ROBERTS: I gather then he is a Tory. I o~. oh: But, Mr. Speaker, I do not care what Mr. Pratt's political connections are, you know, that does not change my feelings for his art, generally, and it does not change - if this were a print I might be very tempted to go and buy it.

But I do not like the design and I looked at it and ~looked at it and looked at it and thought about it and tried to come to some feeling, some conclusion as to whether I would in a free vote. If it were a party vote I would have no trouble going along with my ~arty because to be quite blunt I could not care less in a very real sense what design we have.In a very real sense,and a number of 4145 -

May 15, 1980 Tape No. 1587 DW - 2 MR. E. ROBERTS: my colleagues have made this point with great eloquence 1 the whole thing is a revealing episode when I think of the all the problems affecting Newfoundland and Labrador today, when I think of all the matters with which thi