November 18, 2002 HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY

PROCEEDINGS Vol. XLIV No. 30

The House met at 1:30 p.m.

MR. SPEAKER (Snow): Order, please!

Before we begin our routine proceedings, the Chair would like to observe an

old parliamentary tradition that we reinstated some time ago. Today, I have the

pleasure of formally introducing a member who was elected in the by-election

held on July 24. He is Mr. Harry Harding, in the District of Bonavista North.

I have been advised by the Clerk of the House of Assembly that Mr. Harding

has taken the Oath of Allegiance to the Crown as required by the Constitution

and has signed the Members' Roll.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MR. WILLIAMS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, I had the pleasure of walking with this gentleman throughout the

entire district and I think it is only fitting that we walk the last fifty to

100 feet to take his seat.

I have the honour to present to you today, Mr. Harry Harding, the Member for

Bonavista North, who claims the right to take his seat.

MR. SPEAKER: Let the member take his seat.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: As well, I want to inform members that we do have two new

pages who will be with us during this sitting of the House. They are: Ms Janice

Pitts and Mr. Frank Davis. Both of these are Memorial University students.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

Statements by Members

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Humber East.

MR. MERCER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

It gives me great pleasure to inform members of this hon. House that at its

2002 World Champions in Minneapolis, Minnesota, the International Federation of

Broomball Associations announced that Corner Brook would host the 2004 World

Broomball Championships.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. MERCER: Prior to going to Minneapolis, the Newfoundland and Labrador

contingent were told that bids were also expected from Rochester, New York, and

from Lausanne, Switzerland. However, Mr. Speaker, when Lausanne became aware of

the superior bid that was to be presented by the City of Corner Brook, the

Switzerland bid was withdrawn.

Mr. Speaker, I am told that not only was Corner Brook awarded the 2004 World

Championships but that it was awarded these championships by a unanimous vote of

the International Federation. This speaks highly not only of those who made the

presentation at Minneapolis, but also the high regard that Corner Brook has on

the world stage.

Mr. Speaker, not only is Corner Brook the acknowledged sporting capital of

Newfoundland and Labrador, it is fast becoming a destination of choice for

national, international and world sporting championships.

Mr. Speaker, these championships will be held in the City of Corner Brook,

Stephenville, and Deer Lake from October 31 to November 7, 2004, and will

attract as many as forty-two teams and 1,500 athletes, coaches and visitors from

around the world.

In conclusion, Mr. Speaker, and as a prelude to these World Championships,

the Corner Brook organizing committee, headed by Geoff Tulk, public relations

director Leo Blanchard, and event manager Penny Brake, invite all Newfoundland

and Labrador to Corner Brook for the 2003 Canadian National Senior Men's and

Women's Broomball Championships which will be held in the City of Corner Brook

from March 31 to April 5, 2003.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Ferryland.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Today, I would like to congratulate and pay tribute to a gentleman who turned

102 years old on October 26, Mr. Stephen Carter of Witless Bay, who is now

residing at Hoyles-Escasoni. I went to visit Mr. Carter on his birthday for the

last few years, and when I went in he talked about his son who is getting a

pension today; he is sixty-five years of age.

Mr. Carter is a very sharp, witty individual. He has a tremendous memory and,

of course, his longevity maybe can be attributed in some way to his daily

regiment of taking his tonic at ten, three and six. If they are five minutes

late, Mr. Carter makes his way up that corridor wondering where his tonic is. He

also likes to smoke the pipe.

He is a remarkable individual. I am sure the House, too, would wish to

express, I would hope, their best wishes to Mr. Carter and his family; a

remarkable man and a remarkable life.

Thank you.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Burin-Placentia West.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MS M. HODDER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, I rise in this hon. House today to recognize six youths from my

district who recently were given recognition at the 2002 Provincial Leadership

Conference in Stephenville.

Out of the seventy students who attended the conference, students Stephanie

Hodder, Marie-Claire Lapaix, Holly Cribb, Jessica Reid, Bernice Curtis, Lindsey

Hewitt, and teacher-sponsor Cheryl Brown of Marystown Central High School were

recognized with the conference trophy for their efforts.

I am also pleased to point out to all members that this recognition will see

Marystown hosting next year's Provincial Leadership Conference. I also want to

recognize the Burin-Placentia School Board who recently held their Regional

Youth Leadership Conference in St. Bernard's.

Mr. Speaker, these conferences are very important in the development of the

self-confidence and growth of the youth of this Province. I am pleased that the

students from Marystown Central High School were able to benefit at the

Provincial Leadership Conference. I congratulate all of the students involved

and I am sure they are looking forward to next year's conference in the

Marystown area.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Bonavista South.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. FITZGERALD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I rise today as well to recognize three special birthdays in the District of

Bonavista South. I would like to recognize Mrs. Laura Sweet, formerly of

Catalina, now living at the Golden Heights Manor, who has recently celebrated

her 101 st birthday; Mrs. Gertrude Hobbs from Jamestown, who recently

celebrated her 101 st birthday; and Mrs. Gladys Yetman, formerly from

Southern Bay and now living at the Golden Heights Manor, who just celebrated her

102 nd birthday. Those are three ladies in the District of Bonavista

South who are celebrating birthdays in excess of 100.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. FITZGERALD: Mr. Speaker, in conversation with those three ladies, I

can tell you the old saying that hard work never hurt anyone is really true,

because they often talk about their hard work and how they were not only

housewives and housekeepers but they looked after the gardens and they looked

after repairs to the house and everything else.

Mr. Speaker, I am sure the House joins with me in saying a special birthday

wish to those three individuals. I do not know if it is the clean water or if it

is the fresh air or if it is the weather that supports longevity in the District

of Bonavista South, but I say to members opposite that I am only halfway there,

so relax, take your time, I am going to be around for a long time yet.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Carbonear-Harbour Grace.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SWEENEY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I rise today in this hon. House to recognize a young resident of my district

who is being hailed as a hero for recently saving his grandfather's life. Mark

Hurley is a sixteen-year-old, Level Two student at Carbonear Collegiate, and the

son of Eugene Hurley and Nellie Merrigan of Carbonear.

On the afternoon of November 5, he braved the cold waters of Crocker's Cove

to rescue his seventy-eight-year-old grandfather, Pat Merrigan. Mr. Merrigan

fell into the water 250 feet away from shore after his aluminum boat capsized

without warning while trying to retrieve an anchor.

Mark dragged his grandfather to the shore where two local residents, Calvin

Penney and Reg Parsons helped Mark to get Mr. Merrigan out of the water.

Mr. Speaker, Mark's quick action, and accomplished swimming skills over the

past nine years, helped saved his grandfather from drowning. As the MHA for the

area, I want to congratulate him for his heroism and on behalf of all Members in

this hon. House, I want to send my best wishes to both Mark Hurley and Pat

Merrigan.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

Statements by Ministers

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Government House Leader.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, I rise today to pay tribute to Mr. Robert French

and Mr. Herbert Pottle, who devoted their lives to public service and

accomplished much in their time of service.

Mr. Speaker, Bob French contributed a great deal to his town, his district,

and to the Province; initially, as a businessman, and then in this capacity as

an elected representative at both the municipal and the provincial levels. In

his years of service to the people of the Province he acted as an Opposition

critic for Tourism, Culture and Recreation, for Municipal and Provincial Affairs

and, most recently, for Labour. He also served as the Party Whip in the House of

Assembly and a member of the Public Accounts Committee of the House of Assembly.

Mr. French was also an active volunteer and helped promote sports such as

softball and hockey, as well as the 1996 Newfoundland and Labrador Summer Games

in Conception Bay South area and across the Province. He was first elected as a

Member of the House of Assembly for Conception Bay South District on February

22, 1996.

Mr. Speaker, Mr. Pottle, like Mr. French, also had an active and

distinguished political career. The last surviving member of Newfoundland's

Commission of Government, he was a man of integrity with a diverse career in the

public service. He was a psychologist, a United Church student Minister, a

commissioner, a cabinet minister, an author and a devoted family man. Upon his

retirement, he served as United Nations Welfare advisor to the Government of

Lybia and worked for the federal Department of Health and Welfare in Ottawa.

Mr. Speaker, both of these men were active advocates for the people they

represented and, without a doubt, they served their constituency, their

communities and their Province honourably through their years of service. It is

with great sadness that I acknowledge the passing of both distinguished

gentlemen and kindly ask the Speaker to extend condolences to their families on

behalf of the Members of the House of Assembly.

Thank you.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Opposition House Leader.

MR. E. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

While none of us in the Legislature served with Mr. Pottle, we certainly, on

this side of the House, would like to be associated with the remarks of the

Government House Leader in asking you to send your condolences to the late Mr.

Pottle's family and to acknowledge the distinguished career that he had in

this Legislature, and also throughout his entire life.

With respect to the former Member for Conception Bay South, who was indeed

met with surprise and a great deal of sadness on - I know all members part, but

certainly on our side of the House. Bob was a great friend to all of us. It came

as a shock when the news came that he had passed away. He made a great

contribution, certainly to the town of Conception Bay South and the District of

Conception Bay South. I am not going to get into the accolades that we could,

because it would take an inordinate amount of time.

He also served, I say to the Government House Leader, for a time as critic

for the Department of Health, as the now Minister of Mines and Energy would

know. I believe I said one day, it was at the funeral, where walking out to this

House one afternoon - when he was the Minister of Health - the Minister of Mines

and Energy said: Bob, my son, if my wife could only get a hold of you this week.

That is the type of individual Bob was, he was hardhitting. He dealt with the

issues but it was never personal. I agree with the Government House Leader, that

he has contributed greatly. I think that one of his lasting contributions that

will be made and be seen in this House is his son Terry, who is in the Gallery

today and the newly elected Member for Conception Bay South. We are looking

forward to a time, not so far in the distant future, when you will take your

seat to continue not only Bob's legacy, but to begin to create your own, Sir.

Thank you very much.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi.

MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

It is, of course, a shock and sadness for all of us to know that our

colleague, Bob French, is no longer with us. He was, as others have said, a

fearless advocate in this House for his constituents and for the causes which he

espoused. He was determined, in regard to his constituents' needs and in

performing his critic duties in this House. I think, as the Opposition House

Leader has said, he was always fearless and determined, but not a personal thing

with him, to represent people in this House. So it is with shock and sadness

that we note his passing. Many of us were there at the funeral to recognize the

great outpouring of support for Bob French and his family at the time of his

funeral at the church in Foxtrap.

He also, as was noted, outside of the House and before even coming here, made

significant contributions to his community and to the Province in terms of

sports activity and hosting of the Newfoundland and Labrador Summer Games. I

think it is a tribute to him, that his son will be joining us soon to take that

same seat in this House of Assembly for the rest of this term. I want to add our

notes of praise for his work and his contribution, and also to acknowledge Dr.

Pottle, a former member of this House, who had a long career after he left here

and continued, up until very recently, to contribute by writing letters to the

editor which were published often in The Evening Telegram ; a

distinguished career by a distinguished Newfoundlander. We join in noting his

passing as well.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, it is my pleasure to rise today to thank and recognize the

contributions of Dr. A. Maxwell House, out-going Lieutenant Governor for the

Province of Newfoundland and Labrador.

Beginning in 1997 and continuing on until just a few weeks ago when we

welcomed His Honour Edward Roberts as Lieutenant Governor, Dr. House and his

wife Mary served this Province in the vice-regal role.

Dr. House's commitment to the people of this Province began long before his

time at Government House. He has been an advocate and leader in the area of new

technology, and many people in this Province have benefitted greatly and

directly from his efforts in the area of telemedicine.

The impact that this has had on patient care in this Province and around the

World is a testament to his commitment to his chosen field of medicine, and to

both his patients and those in need beyond the reach of his hands personally.

Mr. Speaker, the role of Lieutenant Governor is one which carries with it

many responsibilities. It is a role which places many demands on the time and

energy of the person honoured to be in the position. It is a role which

represents Newfoundland and Labrador at the very highest provincial, national

and international level.

Mr. Speaker, Dr. and Mrs. House carried out their work as vice-regal

representatives with the dignity, humility and energy that the position demands

and the people of the Province deserve. I ask hon. members to join with one

another to recognize the contributions of our out-going Lieutenant Governor and

his wife, Dr. and Mrs. House.

Mr. Speaker, as Premier and as a member of this hon. House, I respectfully

request that all members endorse you, as the Speaker, to send a letter

expressing our thanks and best wishes to Dr. and Mrs. House on behalf of the

Legislature.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. WILLIAMS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, I wish to join with the comments of the hon. the Premier in

paying tribute to a fine couple, Dr. and Mrs. House, who were neighbours of

myself and Maureen and the family on Reeves Place for many, many years.

I think the words dignity, humility and energy certainly describe their role

in office. I truly saw them, I must say, here as a team and that is the way they

were as neighbours as well.

I can now put behind me one haunting memory that I had. I went over, I think

it was probably fifteen or sixteen years ago, to Dr. House's house and I

wanted to borrow a screwdriver. I remember him saying to me: Just make sure you

bring it back.

To this day, I cannot remember whether I brought it back or not. Now that he

is out of the official position, I think I can go over and properly ask him: Did

I bring it back? Because, if not, I am going to return it. That is something

that has haunted me for a long while and now is beyond me.

Dr. House and Mary House, I must say, were a wonderful couple and they will

take up a new

chapter in their life now. I had a chance to observe them as

neighbours. They were energetic. I watched them exercise. I watched them as a

team together, and that is the way they performed in the House.

As well, as the hon. the Premier has said, Dr. House was actually a pioneer

in telemedicine and also, of course, a pioneer in distance education. He has

made a tremendous contribution at that level to his Province, and he has

certainly made a tremendous contribution at this level to his Province, so I

join with the comments of the Premier and wish them well.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi.

MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

We would certainly wish to be associated with the remarks of the Premier and

the Leader of the Opposition in recognizing the contribution of Dr. Max House to

the Office of the Lieutenant-Governor and, of course, the support, effort, and

work of his wife, Mary House, as his support and co-worker in the very

important, symbolic and constitutional role that is played by the Vice-Regal

couple in the Lieutenant-Governorship role. Indeed, the office was carried out

with great dignity, with great graciousness and warmth which was brought to the

office by both Dr. House and his wife.

I want to join with you, and with all members of the House, in expressing our

best wishes to them in their future endeavors, thank them for their

contribution, and also recognize that this was not, of course, the only

contribution of Dr. House, as has been mentioned. He has a distinguished career

both in medicine, at the Faculty of Medicine at Memorial, and in the emerging

and very, very important field of telemedicine and distance medicine and

education.

We recognize their accomplishments and wish them well in the future.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Mines and Energy.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. MATTHEWS: Mr. Speaker, I rise in the House today to provide hon.

members with an update on the Voisey's Bay project.

As hon. members are aware, this Province and Inco signed a development

agreement for the Voisey's Bay Project on October 7. Since that time,

preliminary work has been progressing in a number of areas at the Voisey's Bay

site, including road infrastructure, port facilities and a temporary airstrip,

with a temporary project office being established at the Argentia site by the

end of this month. Also, Voisey's Bay Nickel Company Limited has recently

registered its plans for the construction of the demonstration plant at Argentia

with the Department of Environment for its Environmental Assessment process.

Once environmental release is obtained, construction will commence on building

the warehouse at the site.

To date, twelve contracts have been awarded, valued at over $30 million.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. MATTHEWS: The Industrial and Employment Benefits Agreement has been

very effective in achieving this Province's commitment to maximizing local

benefits from the project. Today, 161 people are employed at the Voisey's Bay

site, of which 137, or 85 per cent, are residents of Newfoundland and Labrador.

Approximately 250 people are employed in all aspects of the project in this

Province.

Mr. Speaker, we have recently heard comments that work is not moving forward

quickly enough in certain areas, particularly at the Argentia site. I wish to

take this opportunity to assure hon. members that VBNC's work plan, as

announced, is on schedule; however, preliminary work must be completed to ensure

the long-term success of the site. The company has committed to spend $5 million

on the Argentia site before March of next year, and we have been assured that

this commitment will be kept.

There have also been questions raised regarding benefits issues, and the

awarding of certain contracts. I wish to reiterate to hon. members that

qualified Newfoundland and Labrador companies are, and will continue to be,

given first consideration in the awarding of contracts. Government continues to

monitor this situation and is confident that the guidelines set out in the IEBA

are being followed. Where Newfoundland and Labrador companies are qualified to

do the work and specification requirements can be met, these companies will get

first consideration.

Mr. Speaker, since the Statement of Principles and subsequently the binding

contracts have been signed, the response from local industry regarding benefits

issues has been very positive. We believe that this demonstrates the strength of

the agreements we have signed. We continue to monitor all aspects of the Voisey's

Bay project to ensure that all commitments made to the people of Newfoundland

and Labrador are kept. The people of the Province can be assured that the

agreements on the development of Voisey's Bay are being followed.

Mr. Speaker, I continue to look forward to the impressive benefits that will

accrue to this Province over the next couple of years as we move from site

preparation activities to construction. We will then truly see the magnitude and

the scope of this project.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for St. John's East.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. OTTENHEIMER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Of course, as all the people in the Province know, we had an opportunity to

discuss and debate in detail just a few short months ago some of the concerns

and issues and questions that we raised, as an Opposition. It is interesting to

note, Mr. Speaker, that in view of the fact and despite the fact that a final

contract has been entered into, many, if not all, of the concerns that were

raised several months ago continue to exist.

I would like to point out, if I may, briefly, just some of them for the

benefit of members present and the citizens of the Province. They include the

following: that copper concentrate to be exported from this Province to create

jobs elsewhere, more likely for the life of the project... If the hydromet

facility is not built, all of the nickel concentrate will be shipped out of the

Province for the life of the project, creating jobs elsewhere. If the research

into the hydrometallurgical process works, if financing is found, if

environmental studies prove favourable, if the hydromet pilot plant can

successfully prove the research on a commercial basis - a lot of ifs, Mr.

Speaker. Even assuming that everything unfolds as is hoped - and the word hope

is important, too - nothing is guaranteed or secured and there is no guarantee

that the replacement concentrate will be returned to this Province.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. OTTENHEIMER: In fact, for the first three years, Inco can simply say

that we cannot find any replacement concentrate.

Furthermore, the conditions of the force majeure clause are so broad that

Inco can find many reasons to skip out on its responsibilities.

Mr. Speaker, perhaps the most important comment that was made by the hon.

minister was when he said: We continue to monitor all aspects of the Voisey's

Bay project to ensure that our commitments -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

MR. OTTENHEIMER: Just in conclusion, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. OTTENHEIMER: - that all commitments made to the people of the

Province are kept.

As an Opposition -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Labrador West.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. COLLINS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

We acknowledge that work is progressing at Voisey's Bay, on the site, but

some of the things in this statement here certainly cause me concern and cause a

lot of people in Labrador concern. Even the Minister Responsible for Labrador

Affairs has acknowledged that people in Labrador, in general, are not getting

the employment opportunities that they were promised by this government and by

Voisey's Bay Nickel.

If we look at the number of people who are working there from Labrador, if we

take out the Aboriginal numbers who have negotiated their own contracts and

leave the number of people from Labrador outside of the Aboriginal communities

who were not able to negotiate their contracts, who trusted this government to

do it on their behalf, then they are very much afraid that they are being left

out in the cold. Even the Minister Responsible for Labrador Affairs acknowledges

that.

Mr. Speaker, I would like to say to the minister that people in Labrador will

be vigilant when it comes to the hiring practices of Voisey's Bay Nickel -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

MR. COLLINS: - and they will insist that government live up to its

commitment, and the company live up to its commitment, (inaudible) employment

opportunities for the people of Labrador.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

The hon. the Premier.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, I rise today to give hon. members an update on the status of

negotiations with Quebec to develop the Gull Island Hydro Project in Labrador.

On August 1, following several months of discussions with officials from the

Government of Quebec, Premier Landry and I announced in Halifax that we had

agreed on the fundamental principles that would underlie any deal that would be

reached to develop the $4 billion, 2000 megawatt hydro project at Gull Island.

First, Mr. Speaker, we agreed that Newfoundland and Labrador would own 100

per cent of the project.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER GRIMES: Mr. Speaker, a very marked difference from the existing

Upper Churchill Project, which is owned two-thirds by the Province, one-third by

Quebec.

Second, Mr. Speaker, we agreed that there would be a provision outlining that

the price we get for selling our power would be reflective of the value of

electricity as it changes over time - in other words, Mr. Speaker, an escalation

clause as it is often referred to.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER GRIMES: This escalation clause, Mr. Speaker, which did not exist

in the Upper Churchill contract, must be part of any new agreement.

Third, Mr. Speaker, we also agreed that Newfoundland and Labrador would have

the right to recall power for use in the Province should it be needed for

domestic, commercial, or industrial purposes.

Fourth, Mr. Speaker, Premier Landry and I agreed that we would maximize

economic and employment benefits for both Newfoundland and Labrador in the first

instance, and Quebec.

Fifth, Mr. Speaker, we recognized the importance of partnering with the Innu

and of developing the project in an environmentally sensitive manor.

Since we announced those principles in Halifax, Mr. Speaker, officials have

been negotiating the detailed terms that would put them into effect. We have

made significant progress.

We know this is a large $4 billion investment for our Province, and we are

taking what time is needed to negotiate terms which provide the right balance

between minimizing financial risk for Newfoundland and Labrador and maximizing

economic returns for our people.

Mr. Speaker, today I reaffirm our commitment to the principles announced in

August. If we reach an agreement, we will report the full details to the people

of the Province. In our continued spirit of openness and accountability, we will

ensure our residents have all the facts.

We also commit, Mr. Speaker, to a full debate in this Legislature with an

opportunity for a free vote on such an important issue.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER GRIMES: The government that I lead, Mr. Speaker -

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Premier.

PREMIER GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The government that I lead will not shy away from progress on the economic

front. We will not live our lives in the past. We recognize the value such

progress has on maintaining good social programs in Newfoundland and Labrador.

This year alone, Mr. Speaker, we have seen the sanctioning of the White Rose

offshore oil project; the start of the Voisey's Bay Project; and the

resolution of the offshore boundary dispute with Nova Scotia, to mention just a

few. And there will be more in the future.

I am confident, Mr. Speaker, that we will conclude negotiations in the near

future, one way or another, on Gull Island, maybe even this week. I look forward

to the opportunity to update hon. members at that time.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. WILLIAMS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I find it quite interesting that we received this update about - well, I

guess it is an hour ago now - thirty minutes before we came into the House and

have received nothing since August 1 when the original principles were

announced. Now that the Premier has to provide some information to this House,

he is providing it.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. WILLIAMS: He originally said the deal would be done by the end of

September, by the middle of September. We are now into November. Why now? Do you

know why now? Because he lost a by-election in July. He has now gotten hammered

in another by-election and these are the desperate actions of a desperate man

and a desperate government.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. WILLIAMS: Once again, we are in the dark. It has all been done in

secret. Negotiations are completely in secret. We get a two-page update today on

what is going on. That is all he has provided.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MR. WILLIAMS: Voisey's Bay all over again. Everything is done in

secret. No information provided. I call on the Premier to make all the

information available, to have a full debate, but let's do it before that

agreement is signed and let's have a real shot at it this time around.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. WILLIAMS: Mr. Speaker, a Liberal government sold us up the Churchill

River and we will not be sold down the Churchill River.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. WILLIAMS: Today, Mr. Speaker, the Opposition and myself are placing

the Government of Quebec and Hydro Quebec on notice here today that we will

subject this deal to the utmost scrutiny. It will be under a microscope. We will

hire the best available experts in the world to review this documentation.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. WILLIAMS: I have not read it, but I will. I will analyze it and our

team will analyze it, and we will not prejudge it.

Let me tell you, Mr. Speaker, and let me tell this government, that if this

deal does not stand up and does not take care of the best interests of the

people in Newfoundland and Labrador, if and when we form a government, I will do

everything in my power to stop this deal.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

The hon. the Member for Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi.

MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I am very, very disappointed to hear the Premier today talk about his five

so-called principles for a deal on Churchill Falls. What we have, Mr. Speaker,

is a fact that we have not really learned anything in terms of what we should do

with power in this Province. We are still going to be a wholesaler of power to

Hydro Quebec. The only thing he has managed to put on is an escalator clause,

which any fool, after seeing what happened to the Upper Churchill, would do.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. HARRIS: Mr. Speaker, what this government and this Premier has failed

to do is fail to recognize that things have changed since the Upper Churchill

deal. We now have changes in our constitution - in

section 92(a) - which give us

some rights and control over power and power generation, and in management of

that power to this Province.

We also have significant changes in the United States energy regulation

market which give us wielding rights right into the North American market; and

why this government is showing no leadership, taking no advantage of that, is

the failure of this government to take the right steps and put the right

principles in place before a deal can be brought forward.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

The hon. the Minister of Health and Community Services.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SMITH: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I rise today to acknowledge the official opening of the Office of the Child

and Youth Advocate.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SMITH: As hon. members will recall, last May, Lloyd L.W. Wicks was

appointed as our Province's first child and youth advocate, and today he and

his staff officially begin assisting children and youth resolve issues in

relation to services they receive.

Mr. Speaker, the Office of the Child and Youth Advocate is independent of the

provincial government and reports directly to the House of Assembly. The

Advocate, Mr. Wicks, will focus on public programs and services that have an

impact on children and youth under nineteen. He will also review enquiries and

complaints concerning individual children and youth, up until the age of

nineteen, and from youth who are in care or custody until the age of twenty-one.

The Advocate will also have the ability to conduct investigations where he is

unable to resolve a matter through advocacy, mediation or other approaches.

Mr. Speaker, the opening of this office represents an important milestone for

children and youth throughout our Province, as they now have an advocate

specific for them and their issues.

Newfoundland and Labrador has now joined other jurisdictions across Canada

that have child and youth advocates. Mr. Speaker, this Province is proud to

recognize in a very meaningful way the importance of children and youth in our

Province and in our society, and I am confident Mr. Wicks will be a strong

advocate on their behalf.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for St. John's West.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MS S. OSBORNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The minister should probably have said, the Province is proud to finally

recognize the importance of children and youth in our Province. The Select

Committee on Children's Interests in 1996 recommended that the Province bring

in the Office of Child Advocate, and many of the members over there who are

booing and hissing now are the very ones who stood on their feet and said there

was no need for such an office. However, the Opposition kept pressuring the

government to recognize the most vulnerable citizens of our Province.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MS S. OSBORNE: So it goes without saying that we are extremely pleased to

see this office finally up and running. I congratulate Judge Wicks. There is no

need, I suppose, to say that this caucus and this Opposition will continue to

support -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

MS S. OSBORNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Labrador West.

MR. COLLINS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

We, too, are pleased to see that the Office of the Child and Youth Advocate

have started officially to do their work today. We think there is a lot of work

that this office can do, work that is much needed on behalf of the children and

youth of this Province. I am certain that Mr. Wicks who, prior to his

appointment as the advocate, has been speaking out and addressing issues on

child welfare and issues that affect youth in the Province for many years. I am

sure that he will do a great job in assuming his new duties -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

MR. COLLINS: By leave, Mr. Speaker, just to finish.

MR. SPEAKER: Does the hon. member have leave?

AN HON. MEMBER: By leave.

MR. SPEAKER: By leave.

MR. COLLINS: It is great to see that the office is officially open and

that the work on behalf of youth and children in this Province can begin.

Thank you.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Mines and Energy.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. MATTHEWS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, I rise in the House today to congratulate the Newfoundland Ocean

Industries Association (NOIA) on their 25 th anniversary, and their

wonderful celebrations held this past weekend to commemorate this remarkable

achievement.

NOIA has been a key industry association in the promotion and development of

this Province's petroleum resources over the past twenty-five years. Formed in

1977, this association now boasts a membership of approximately 425 member

companies. I am certain that governments have come to appreciate the advice and

recommendations from our friends at NOIA over the past twenty-five years, advice

which has helped shape key decisions in the development of our offshore

industry.

Mr. Speaker, at NOIA's gala celebrations on Saturday evening, several

achievement awards were presented. I am pleased to stand here today and state

that the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador was one of two special award

recipients at this event, recognizing this Province's continuing commitment to

developing our offshore resources in a responsible manner, and in partnership

with the industry.

This celebration is very timely, as it was five years ago yesterday that oil

first flowed from Hibernia. Since that time, Terra Nova has begun production and

we have witnessed the sanctioning of the White Rose project. In 2005, this

Province will produce approximately one-third of all of Canada's conventional

light crude oil. It is a very exciting time for this industry and indeed, Mr.

Speaker, for the Province.

Mr. Speaker, without the support of associations such as NOIA, our oil and

gas sector would not be at the impressive stage that we witness today. Our

service and supply sector continues to mature and our world-class infrastructure

continues to build the industry and encourage new investment in the Province.

Government and industry must continue to work together to ensure that the

momentum in our petroleum industry continues to move forward.

Mr. Speaker, I ask all hon. members to join me in congratulating NOIA on

their 25 th anniversary, and in extending best wishes for another

great twenty-five years of success.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for St. John's East.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. OTTENHEIMER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Certainly, on behalf of the members on this side of the House, we too join

with the minister in congratulating the Newfoundland Ocean Industries

Association on their 25 th anniversary and congratulate, as well, and

share in the congratulating of those individuals and associations that were

recipients of awards and received due mention and honourable mention during the

celebration the other evening.

Obviously, we have to recognize those individuals, those groups and

associations who are participants in this formidable industry, an industry which

will obviously be so important for the future of Newfoundland and Labrador and

future generations of Newfoundlanders and Labradorians. However, again it is

important to remind government that just because we celebrate we must not forget

the role of government. I would like to just give one example.

Just several weeks ago, the government indicated that the federal government

has not yet amended its regulations to reflect the arbitration panel's ruling

on the boundary between our Province and Nova Scotia with respect to the

Laurentian sub-basin.

My question would be to the minister: What role is his department playing in

putting pressure on government, the federal government, Mr. Speaker, to ensure

that this very important work be completed, to ensure that this will be

expedited in order to protect the interest and the well-being of all

Newfoundlanders and Labradorians?

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

MR. T. OTTENHEIMER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi.

MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I am certainly happy to join in acknowledging the 25 th anniversary

of this very important industry association. It does great work in this Province

and is a very important industry, and I congratulate those who received awards

last weekend.

It is a very remarkable fact that the minister pointed out, that in three

short years this Province will produce one-third of Canada's requirements for

conventional light crude oil. I would be very happy to sit here and praise this

government if it could also announce that the people of this Province will be

getting one-third of the benefits of all of Canadian oil and gas, such as

Alberta gets out of its; but, we do not, Mr. Speaker, that is the sad fact. We

have to try and fix that problem -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

MR. HARRIS: - as quickly as we can for the people of Newfoundland and

Labrador so that ordinary people can benefit from this industry.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance and President of Treasury

Board.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to provide this House with a

mid-year update on the economic and financial position of our Province.

The 2002 Budget was about balance - a balance between investing in the

economy of the Province and investing in the people of our Province. This was

achieved while maintaining a responsible fiscal position.

Mr. Speaker, at budget time, the global economy was still in a state of

uncertainty in the aftermath of September 11. Our economic forecast reflected

the challenges of this uncertainty, and I reported the expectation of modest

economic growth. While national and international indicators remain fixed, I am

pleased to report that our Province's performance has been stronger than

expected.

Real GDP, which has been forecast to grow in 2002 at a rate of 3.7 per cent,

is now expected to rise by 7.5 per cent - the strongest among all Canadian

provinces.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MS J.M. AYLWARD: While this growth -

MR. FITZGERALD: (Inaudible) the unemployment rate?

MS J.M. AYLWARD: I will get to the unemployment rate in a just a moment,

I say to the hon. Member for Bonavista South.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MS J.M. AYLWARD: While this growth results primarily from offshore oil

production, other sectors of the economy also have contributed. Mr. Speaker, it

is important to understand that GDP growth does not necessarily translate into

cash for the Treasury but it does indicate the potential of the economy to

generate revenue in the future.

A growing economy has had positive effects on labour markets over the past

several years. Employment is expected to grow by 1.3 per cent, surpassing last

year's record high of 211,000 to reach a new record of 214,000. The

unemployment rate is at its lowest point since 1989, and other measures such as

labour force participation continue to show growth. Mr. Speaker, I add, these

are not my numbers. These are statistics that are being presented from Stats

Canada.

Real personal income is expected to grow by 2.5 per cent. This will encourage

consumer confidence and continue the trend of growth in retail trade, which

should exceed $5 billion in 2002. Consumer confidence is also being demonstrated

in substantial growth in the construction industry. Housing starts are projected

to be over 2,200, an increase of 24 per cent - the best performance in this

sector since 1994.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Mr. Speaker, while economic growth does not necessarily

translate into the same level of growth for provincial revenues, the improvement

in the provincial economy is having a positive impact on our finances. Midway

through the fiscal year, revenues are up $50 million from Budget projections.

Our own-source revenues, which include such items as taxes and royalties, are

now forecast to be $33 million over the budget projection. About $14 million of

this increase is due to increased oil royalties, a result of higher prices and

higher production volumes. HST revenues are up by almost $11 million, reflecting

the strength in our retail sector over the past number of years.

Transfers from the federal government account for about 40 per cent of our

provincial revenues. Equalization, the largest transfer to our Province, is

impacted by economic activity, not only in this Province, but activity

throughout the country. At present, federal transfers are anticipated to be $17

million above the budget forecast; however, further transfer estimates, expected

in February, could have a substantial impact on the financial year-end position.

Mr. Speaker, while provincial revenues show steady growth, reflecting the

strength of our provincial economy, government also responded to the necessity

for new spending. Expenditures to date have increased about $19.5 million over

the Budget forecast and were directed to priority areas such as the provincial

drug program, forest fire suppression, and the move from Great Harbour Deep.

These expenditures reflect government's commitment to appropriate investment

in the people and the economy of our Province.

The overall effect of these changes is positive. In March, I forecasted a

prudent, responsible deficit of $93 million. The deficit is now expected to be

$63 million -

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MS J.M. AYLWARD: - an improvement in our financial position of $30

million. We will not be complacent, however, Mr. Speaker. We will continue to

closely monitor our revenues to ensure they remain on target and we will

continue to exercise restraint regarding expenditures.

Mr. Speaker, we are committed to sound financial management, and these

results demonstrate this. Our 2002 Budget was about a balance, and we are

achieving this. Sound government is creating economic opportunity that we can

all share in. We will continue this course.

Mr. Speaker, the global economic climate continues to be uncertain, and we

will monitor outside economic influences, particularly in Canada and the U.S.

Notwithstanding this uncertainty, we expect economic growth in our Province to

continue in 2003. Activity related to the Voisey's Bay project will increase,

offshore oil production is expected to rise, and activity related to White Rose

project will continue to build.

Expenditure growth will also continue. The third year of the public service

collective agreement increases will be reflected in 2003-04, as well as the

impact of the settlement with provincial physicians and the normal requirement

for government investment in people and investment in our economic growth.

The Province is facing an increased deficit next year. The size will not be

fully known until the new year, when we are better able to assess the level of

transfer payments, fully consider and evaluate our expenditure requirements for

next year, and assess the impact of the Romanow report on health care.

Government will examine all of its options in consultation with the people of

our Province and the results of these deliberations will be reflected in the

2003 Budget.

Mr. Speaker, Budget presentation practices vary among the provinces and they

continue to evolve. Some do not include all government organizations such as

health boards and school boards. Some do not include the interest expense on

their unfunded pension liability.

Commencing with the 2003 Budget, it is government's intension to include an

accrual-based

summary budget, on a consolidated basis, which will include most

government organizations which comprise the government's reporting entity.

This will be in addition to the cash-based

Summary of Borrowing Requirements

which is currently provided in the Estimates.

Mr. Speaker, the Province has managed the fiscal challenges of 2002 in a

responsible manner, maintaining appropriate control on government spending while

still investing in people and investing in our economy. Good management has

brought good results: our provincial-source revenues have been increasing,

reflecting a growing and vibrant economy.

Mr. Speaker, we will continue to advise Newfoundlanders and Labradorians of

significant developments in our Province's financial and economic position,

bringing information before the House as it becomes available.

Government will continue to be responsible and responsive in managing

provincial finances. We have balanced our responsibilities. We will stay our

fiscal course in confidence: confident in the advice we received from the people

of our Province; confident in our record of sound, practical government;

confident that we have invested in our people of the Province and confident in

our future.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Ferryland.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

What we are hearing today is a little storybook tale, that is all I can see

here in it.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SULLIVAN: From a government that has the worst fiscal performance of

any government in this country, and that was stated recently by the Fraser

Institute. The minister who presided over the government, by the Auditor General's

Report, is the least accountable government in this entire country.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SULLIVAN: And the minister stands in this House today and tells us

about the fantastic GDP, Gross Domestic Product. Well, the minister has to start

realizing that GDP is not the true indicator of wealth of a province. It is a

true indicator when the jobs from that GDP stay here in our Province. The

economy wealth from the oil is going to the Eastern Seaboard of the United

States and other parts of the country. It is not equating into jobs here in

Newfoundland and Labrador in proportion -

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SULLIVAN: - to the growth of GDP. The minister knows that well, and

trying to put it on the people of this Province.

We just heard a former Premier of this Province, Premier Peckford, say they

are asleep at the switch. They have not done their job to maximize jobs here for

Newfoundland and Labrador.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SULLIVAN: I read last week, a 2.6 per cent increase in unemployment

in our Province.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Ferryland.

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

They do not want to hear the real truth. There is a 2.6 per cent increase in

the unemployment rate in this Province since August, I might add. There are

70,000 less people in this Province than there were when that government came to

power in 1989. That is the true measure of our Province's wealth.

Mr. Speaker, they tell us today that we are $33 million ahead of what they

expected. We are showing, according to that minister, a $63 million deficit.

That is not counting the $97 million that they raided in the Trans-Labrador

Initiative; that is not counting the $58 million they took out of Hydro; not

counting the $52 million they took in deferred revenues - that is almost $300

million! - not counting an accrual basis of accounting that she says they are

going to bring in their next budget. We released that in our policy, myself and

the Leader, months and months and months ago.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SULLIVAN: The minister has to get a little more current. You are too

far behind us in our policies. We are three years ahead of you in policies, I

say to the minister.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SULLIVAN: They are just as effective at raiding our policies as they

are at raiding the Labrador Transportation Initiative Fund, I might say.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SULLIVAN: That very minister said, the year before last, we have $30

million-plus deficit, when her own Comptroller General, employed by her

department, and the Auditor General said it is not $30 million-plus, it is $350

million.

Last year we waited to see - this fall, when the report came out of Public

Accounts, the budget revised figure said $63 million. I am predicting it will be

closer to $500 million; in the $400 million to $500 million range. We will see

the true figures. You cannot always run from the truth, I say to the minister;

and you had better start telling the people the truth because they are not

believing what you are saying anymore.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SULLIVAN: Mr. Speaker, we have seen growth in this Province. We have

seen rural Newfoundland depopulated at the fastest rate of depopulation anywhere

I know in the world today, presided over by a government that has neglected

growth initiatives to grow this Province, failed in its ability to generate

non-tax revenues in this Province, that have gone from 21 per cent to 30 per

cent, basically. They are depending on short-term fixes for this Province that

our grandchildren and great-grandchildren will pay for generations to come.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Member for Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi.

MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

We, too, in the NDP, are critical of the minister's statement; but, unlike

the Official Opposition, we do not take our guidance from the Fraser Institute

in criticizing the government.

The minister, Mr. Speaker, is an example of a person who sees the world

through rose-coloured glasses. In fact, I am surprised she does not have a happy

face badge on here today because she wants to present things in the least

possible light; but, I want to remind people, this is the same minister who

stared down the doctors a month ago when they were on strike and talked about a

deficit of $93 million and we could not afford to pay one cent more, and we did

not have any money. Today, she shows up with $30 million more than she had a

month ago.

We have the Minister of Health staring down senior citizens who are about to

be kicked out on the street from home care situations and: no, we do not have

any money. We do not have any home care places. Mr. Speaker, when it suits this

minister she has no money. When it suits her, she has money.

We talked about the GDP; well, as it has been said many times: you cannot eat

GDP. We are not going to be able to survive on a high rate of increase in the

GDP if there are no fiscal benefits to this government and to this Province.

I go back to the statement of the Minister of Mines and Energy. We, in 2005,

will produce one-third of Canada's conventional crude. When are we going to be

getting the benefits as a people the same way that Alberta gets the benefits

from its conventional crude being produced on the ground in Alberta - with a

revenue to that government far more substantial than we are ever going to see

under the current royalty regimes, which are pathetic in this Province?

Mr. Speaker, we talked about economic progress but we did not hear any

mention of the unemployment rate in this Province, which is still more than

twice the national average, and we have not seen any plans from this government

to do anything about that. This Premier is prepared to go to the wall to defy

Ottawa on the Kyoto Accord. Yet, we still have the economic problems that we

have here and a timid government when it comes to dealing with their cousins in

Ottawa. So, we have a long ways to go to have proper economics with response to

this problem.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the member's time is up.

Oral Questions

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. WILLIAMS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

If I could first just acknowledge the presence of Mrs. Abbie Harding and

Jamie Harding in the Speaker's gallery.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. WILLIAMS: Mr. Speaker, my questions this afternoon are for the

Premier. I guess after the by-election last week and the stormy weather last

night, it is an indication of a stormy session for the Premier to come, so I

hope he battens down the hatches.

Mr. Speaker, by 2010 the Government of Quebec is forecasting a shortage of

power that will leave them unable to meet their commercial obligations. Cheap

power is the foundation of their energy plan and their key to economic

development. One would think, therefore, that Quebec's shortage of power would

put our negotiating team in the driver's seat during negotiations on the Lower

Churchill. With such obvious negotiating power, Mr. Speaker, could the Premier

please tell the people why he did not use the Lower Churchill as a bargaining

lever to address the inequities of the Upper Churchill contract? Would the

Premier explain why he quit on the objective of every single Government of

Newfoundland and Labrador since the deal was signed over thirty years ago?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The question itself, again, is very instructive in terms of the very attitude

and approach that has been taken. While the Leader of the Opposition is talking

about quitting, we are talking about moving forward, Mr. Speaker. There is no

quit in this particular group.

What we are talking about, as I said in the ministerial statement, is not

living in the past and pipe dreams, and putting out false expectations for the

people of Newfoundland and Labrador. Anyone, who would review the round of

negotiations that we are now trying to complete - and as I said, maybe even this

week, one way or another - would know that when it was started in 1998 it was

understood that we were trying to find a way to develop the Lower Churchill

resource at Gull Island. We were trying to do some other things as well. We are

still trying to find a way to develop the potential at the Lower Churchill. It

is understood, and I have had notes from the Royal Commission, that there are

other things that might be considered with respect to the Upper Churchill

contract. It is not part of these negotiations. The only reason - and it was

known, and it was written, and it was publicly stated and presented to the

people of Newfoundland and Labrador in 1998 - that we are continuing in this

negotiation is because it was understood that this would be developed of its own

merits and if anyone has a grievance about the Upper Churchill, it would be

pursued through some other avenue. That was in the documents from day one, and

the Leader of the Opposition knows it, and the members of the Opposition knows

it, and anyone that has read the information knows it.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. Premier now to conclude his answer.

PREMIER GRIMES: We are not quitting anything. We are trying to develop

things in the best interest of Newfoundland and Labrador.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. the Premier now to take his seat.

PREMIER GRIMES: That is our commitment, that is our focus, and that is

what we are going to continue to do.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. WILLIAMS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Premier, you might be prepared to quit on the Upper Churchill but the

people on this side of House (inaudible) are certainly not prepared (inaudible).

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. WILLIAMS: Mr. Speaker, the consultation document for the Royal

Commission, the Premier's Royal Commission on Renewing and Strengthening Our

Place in Canada, says that a significant contributor to our prosperity and

self-reliance is exported to Quebec in the form of power and energy from the

Upper Churchill project. Mr. Speaker, the Commission in that document asks: What

does this inequitable agreement say about our place in Canada?

My question for the Premier: If the Premier is prepared to give up on the

Upper Churchill and allow this lopsided agreement to continue for another forty

years, what does that say about this Premier and this government and their view

of our place in Canada? Are they quitters or are they merely trying to -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. WILLIAMS: - secure their political future rather than securing the

best interest in the future of the children of this Province?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, I guess it was also instructive to note that a former premier,

the last Conservative Premier of Newfoundland and Labrador, was here on the

weekend raising this spectre again, bragging about how he went to court.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

PREMIER GRIMES: Well, there was a premier for forty-one days or so in

between who was a Conservative, but the last Conservative one who was here

bragging about the fact that: I am a fighter. I went to court on the Upper

Churchill. I went to court on the offshore.

Sure he did, and guess what he did both times? Lost. Because he was more

interested, Mr. Speaker, in trying to pretend and wanting to pretend and falsely

making the people of the Province believe that he would rather fight for them

rather than do something to develop the Province. As a matter of fact, the truth

in the offshore is this: what we are doing now is celebrating twenty-five years

with NOIA and five years of oil, yesterday, is ten years delayed because the

Premier wore a black armband and went to court rather than do something about

developing the offshore when it could have been done ten years ago.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER GRIMES: That is the reality of it. That is the fact, Mr. Speaker.

That is what is happening in Newfoundland and Labrador, and the former premier -

former, former, former premier - who sits over there knows it because he was

with the group and he is saying nothing today because he knows it is true.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. the Premier now to conclude his answer.

PREMIER GRIMES: Mr. Speaker, we will not talk about destroying or losing

an opportunity to develop the Lower Churchill. There is an issue with respect to

the Upper Churchill that has been part of the history of the Province for thirty

years, and we will continue to pursue any avenues that might see that change for

the greater benefit of Newfoundland and Labrador. As a matter of fact, we have

already increased, since 1998, the value of the Upper Churchill agreement to

Newfoundland and Labrador by over $1 billion.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. the Premier now to take his seat.

PREMIER GRIMES: This government has done that and we are going to

continue -

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. WILLIAMS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

How dare this Premier, of all people, impute the motives of someone like

Brian Peckford, a passionate Newfoundlander!

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. WILLIAMS: Mr. Speaker, this government's $3 million Royal

Commission -

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. WILLIAMS: Mr. Speaker, the Chair of this government's $3

million-plus Royal Commission on our place in Canada has long since advocated

the importance of addressing the inequities of the Upper Churchill as part of

any new deal to develop the Lower Churchill. In fact, that Chairman said - and I

quote him -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member is on a supplementary. I ask him now to get to his question.

MR. WILLIAMS: In fact he once said - this is a quote from the Chairman:

Regardless of the benefits derived from the Lower Churchill, they cannot even

begin to make amends for the Upper Churchill.

I continue to quote, Mr. Speaker: -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. member now to get to his question; he is on a supplementary.

MR. WILLIAMS: It would be another sad day in our history if the benefits

of a new deal were not placed before the people of Newfoundland and Labrador in

that context.

Mr. Speaker, can the Premier please tell the people of Newfoundland and

Labrador: Is the Chair of his Royal Commission wrong or is he more interested in

our place in Quebec rather than our place in Canada?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I am glad we are back in the Legislature and having the Leader of the

Opposition speak. He hasn't said much for several months and I am glad to hear

his views being articulated in the Province, Mr. Speaker.

Let me say this, Mr. Speaker: I can clearly point out for the record that

Brian Peckford is no idol of mine as he is of yours. I can see that he is

obviously your idol. You probably plan to act just like him, if you ever get a

chance. I doubt that will happen. Hopefully the Province will be spared from

that. He is no idol of mine, a man who delayed and would rather go to court and

fight and so on rather than develop things that were in the interest of

Newfoundlanders and Labradorians, Mr. Speaker. He is so proud, by the way, so

proud of what he accomplished when he was here that he left and lives in British

Columbia. That is how proud he is of what he left here in Newfoundland and

Labrador.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER GRIMES: Mr. Speaker, with respect to the issues today, the Royal

Commission is seriously having a look again. For about the twentieth time in

thirty years there is another group, this time the Royal Commission, having a

look at whether or not we can find a way to better our lot as a result of the

Upper Churchill arrangement. We have already, Mr. Speaker - and we are waiting

to hear from them with definitive notions and ideas which we will gladly follow

through on if they have them. We had an interim suggestion from them, an interim

contact, but nothing definitive at this point. We will glad pursue it.

There is nothing on the Lower Churchill arrangement -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. Premier now to conclude his answer.

PREMIER GRIMES: - that we are negotiating now that would ever preclude us

from also seeking to improve our lot under the Upper Churchill contract as we

have already done since 1998. They don't want to talk about this piece of good

news because since 1998 this Liberal government has improved the financial terms

of the Upper Churchill contract for Newfoundland and Labrador by over $1 billion

to this Province.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

PREMIER GRIMES: They don't want to talk about that.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. WILLIAMS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The Premier, as we all know, is obviously a big fan of very expensive ad

campaigns. In fact, I believe that the Grimes ad meter would be up to now about

$205,000. Is that about right?

AN HON. MEMBER: On one, that is right, yes.

MR. WILLIAMS: Would the Premier, Mr. Speaker, please confirm that a large

public relations campaign is already planned for the launch of a proposed deal

on the Lower Churchill?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, let me say this, what I have said earlier today, that one way or

another I expect, probably in this very week that we start today, on a Monday,

that we will have a resolution one way or another, likely before the end of this

week, with respect to Gull Island and the development on the Lower Churchill.

As I have said earlier today, Mr. Speaker, we are committed to making sure

that every Newfoundlander and Labradorian finds out all of the details with

respect to a project that is as important as the development of the Lower

Churchill.

There is a thirty year history to this, Mr. Speaker, which this group

obviously wants to talk about and try to have people scared away from moving

forward, going into the future, developing the Province properly for the people

of Newfoundland and Labrador. If we have to purchase some access, Mr. Speaker,

through television, radio, newspapers, magazines, as well as conduct a debate in

the Legislature, we will do that because it is important enough for

Newfoundlanders and Labradorians to make sure they have all the information, all

the facts, because we will have to counterbalance and counteract the negativity

and the misrepresentations that are already starting to come from the Opposition

with a leader who, before he sees anything, says: I do not know what it is but I

tell you one thing; if I ever become the Premier, I will try to stop it. That is

what we have heard today, Mr. Speaker, so we will counteract it any way we can.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. WILLIAMS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

So your answer quite simply is: Yes, there is a very expensive ad campaign

planned.

Mr. Speaker, my next question for the Premier is: Would the Premier confirm

that a large news conference was planned for this morning with himself,

officials, I would presume, of Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro, and/or Premier

Bernard Landry, and/or officials of Quebec Hydro, and that it was cancelled this

morning because your Cabinet had the jitters when you presented the deal to

them?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, let me say this to the Leader of the Opposition and to the

members of the Legislature and to all those from Newfoundland and Labrador who

would want to listen and hear it: We take these issues extremely seriously, Mr.

Speaker. We are talking about a major, huge, phenomenal development for

Newfoundland and Labrador that has been held back, by the way. The Conservative

government in 1975, prior to an election, with then Premier Moores, talked about

the fact that in this next election they should vote for the Conservatives

because they were going to develop the Lower Churchill - twenty-seven years ago

- and every single time, because someone would rather play politics with it than

take it seriously and develop something in the best interest of Newfoundlanders

and Labradorians, people have run away from the issue and been chased away from

the issue.

We take it seriously enough to take the time to make sure it is negotiated in

the best interest of Newfoundlanders and Labradorians, and if this group -

because we will have the same rumours and speculation with Voisey's Bay where

the Opposition would say: There are two, three, four or five of these members

who might not vote for it. This will be a free vote, and if these members do not

vote for it, it will not happen.

I can tell you now, they will have the information. They will take the time

like they are doing now to look through it, what we have to date, and see if we

can finalize it and see whether or not we are going to support it on behalf of

the people of the Province -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. Premier to now conclude his answer.

PREMIER GRIMES: - and then we will bring it forward if we are satisfied.

If we are not satisfied, Mr. Speaker, we will tell the people of the Province we

are not doing it and we will explain why.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. Premier now to take his seat.

PREMIER GRIMES: What we are trying to do is take it seriously, find a way

to do something in the best interest of the people of the Province, and not to

run away.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. WILLIAMS: I would like to know who is playing politics. Isn't this

the person who said that he had to stop governing and start politicking when his

(inaudible)?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. WILLIAMS: A question for the Premier, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. member to refrain from putting up any placards or displays on

his desk.

The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MR. WILLIAMS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Premier. Does the Premier see any problem

or see any conflict of interest with the fact that, in a presentation to your

Cabinet on your ad campaign, that presentation was made on behalf of an external

ad agency and was made to your Cabinet by the spouse of an employee in your

office? Do you see any conflict or anything wrong with that presentation?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, let me say this: The Government of Newfoundland and Labrador,

from time to time, hires different firms to do different pieces of work on

behalf of government, and we do not try to tell them who to hire. We do not try

to tell them who is allowed to be on their staff.

As we know, Newfoundland and Labrador is a fairly small place, with 500,000

people. If someone happens to be related, or even a spouse of someone who is

hired to work for me, happens, on their own merit,, in the private sector, to

have secured a job with a company that then, on its own merits, gets a contract

with the government, if that company decides that is the best person they have

with the expertise who should handle a particular case for them, that is not our

judgement call and it will not be a standard by which a government that I lead

will operate, to suggest that we would interrogate people as to their marital

status who they are or what they are before we find out if they can work in

Newfoundland and Labrador.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Opposition House Leader.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. E. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

As I sit in the House today and listen to the hour of Ministerial Statements

and all of the great things that are happening for the people of Newfoundland

and Labrador, I have to ask the Premier this question: If things are so good,

and if the Province is in the best shape that it has ever been under your

custodianship, then why is it, Premier, why is it, Mr. Speaker, that the Premier

has embarked upon an ad campaign which has angered Newfoundlanders and

Labradorians, which has made them angry because of the shameful waste, shameful

and disrespectful waste, of their dollar? Why is it, if things are so good, that

you have to spend $25,000 a week to improve your own image?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, let me again say this: It is not the people of Newfoundland and

Labrador who have been angered; it is the Opposition.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

PREMIER GRIMES: Because it is crystal clear, Mr. Speaker, that they do

not like to have the people of Newfoundland and Labrador reminded of the good

things that are happening in this Province. They would rather be left alone to

go around and suggest that it is all doom and gloom, it is time to turn out the

lights, it is time for us all to leave, and the last one out of Port aux Basques

should lock the place up. That is their message.

The message here is this - and, by the way, maybe he can check with some of

his neighbours - all over Canada, in most of the jurisdictions provincially run

by Progressive Conservative governments, in Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, Prince

Edward Island and Ontario, they spend as much sometimes in a week as we might

spend in a whole year on telling the people and letting the people know, as a

basis of information, what is happening in the Province, and what their

government is actually accomplishing and doing on their behalf. It is a common

practice in the whole country. It is done by every single Administration in the

land. It was done by previous Conservative Administrations here. It is an issue

that has struck a nerve and struck a cord with the Opposition because they do

not like to hear of the good things that are happening in the Province.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

A supplementary, the hon. the Opposition House Leader.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. E. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, when the Premier's mother told him some time ago that his name

would be on jam crocks, she should have also told him that he cannot use the

public Treasury to do it. That is what the people are angered about, Mr.

Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. E. BYRNE: I will just ask him this question: Wouldn't he agree that

these ad campaigns are designed and came out of the Liberal convention recently,

which told him that he has to improve his image, which he must get up to 35 per

cent, and that is the reason the Premier is spending $25,000 a week, or the

equivalent of a salaried physician per month.

Mr. Speaker, let me ask the Premier this question: Wouldn't he agree that

the money he is spending, and his government is spending, to promote his own

image, to try to get it up in the polls, the bills are better to be sent to the

Liberal party executive director than to the public Treasury of Newfoundland and

Labrador?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Maybe I might refer the Opposition House Leader to his own commentary in an

article about my extraordinary job that I am doing as the Premier of

Newfoundland and Labrador -

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

PREMIER GRIMES: - in which he quoted that maybe the Premier should just

go ahead and tell the people of the Province what a good job he is doing - his

own words. He said: If I were the Premier, I would just spend my time telling

the people of the Province what a great job I am doing - because he said he is

doing a great job - quoted directly, attributed to him in the

article that says:

Ordinary Man, Extraordinary Job.

The Opposition House Leader gave that very advice, so maybe it is not the

Liberals I am listening to at all. Maybe I am listening to the Opposition House

Leader because I have such great respect for him.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Opposition House Leader.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. E. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I am not sure what planet this man is living on, Mr. Speaker. The fact of the

matter is, for seven consecutive quarters, this Premier has lagged behind

between sixteen and twenty-one points to (inaudible) the Opposition in

leadership polls. Liberal sources themselves have said that if he does not hit

35 per cent, we are going to have to take a second look.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member is on a supplementary. I ask him to get to his question.

MR. E. BYRNE: Mr. Speaker, let me ask him this question: Isn't it a

fact that the only reason that this ad campaign is going on is simply because

the Premier is lagging behind in the polls? Isn't that the reason that you are

spending $25,000 and $30,000 a week of the public's money to pump up your own

political image?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

What we are proud of, and what we are very aware of, is that for seven

consecutive quarters when the people of Newfoundland and Labrador have been

asked by independent pollsters: are they satisfied with what the government is

doing in Newfoundland and Labrador, do they like the kinds of initiatives that

we have putting forward, are they pleased with the government in what they have

been doing, because the government is concerned for Newfoundland and Labrador,

every single time anywhere from 52 per cent to 60 per cent of the people have

said they are satisfied with what the government is doing, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER GRIMES: The real reason the Opposition does not like this kind of

approach is because the same pollsters are telling them - and they know it -

that any time that happens on a repeated basis, the government gets re-elected

because the people are satisfied with the government, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER GRIMES: That is what they have been told repeatedly, and that is

what is happening.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Member for Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi.

MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, my question is also for the Premier. This government spent

nearly a million dollars trying to promote its position on Voisey's Bay and

another quarter of a million during the doctor's strike, and is now spending

in excess of $25,000 per week on its promotional campaign for the Premier. Will

the Premier not agree that this $25,000 a week could support seven or eight

long-term care beds for a full month, or a couple of school meal programs for an

entire year? Why is the Premier choosing to spend this money on self-promotion

instead of on the needs and programs for the people of this Province who need

them desperately?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, we have all debated the appropriations and the allocations for

the Budget in this House late winter and early spring and, in fact, in every

single department of the government - because the government happens to be,

overall, the largest business in Newfoundland and Labrador - there were budget

allocations voted in this Legislature for communications and information

dissemination in every single department. That is the money, Mr. Speaker, that

we are using in putting out an information program for the people of the

Province. The Opposition wants to talk about it as an ad campaign. It is not

that. It is an information campaign to make sure that if we are going to have a

debate about long-term care and be serious about it, that we need to know first

and foremost what the level of commitment is in Newfoundland and Labrador, how

it compares to the level of commitment elsewhere, how it compared to the level

of commitment last year, how in fact we have increased our commitment to

long-term care this year alone, budget over budget, and that we have had that

debate in this House. What we are making sure is that, rather than -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. Premier to conclude his answer.

PREMIER GRIMES: - have a distortion of it by any means in this House or

outside, that if we are going to have an educated, articulate debate in

Newfoundland and Labrador, which is what I am sure all of us want the people to

engage in, we need to have the information -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. Premier now to take his seat.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Member for Signal Hill-Quidi

Vidi.

MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The Premier also knows that in addition to this money he has two public

relations positions in his own office at a cost of $150,000, plus sixteen other

public relations officers in sixteen different departments of this government.

Why is he not satisfied that they are able to disseminate information, Mr.

Speaker, about what this government is doing through press releases or press

conferences? Why does he need to spend an additional $25,000 a week, an

additional $1.5 million a year, in support of his image and his programs instead

of looking after the needs of the people of this Province?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, what is interesting in the questioning today with respect to the

information campaign is this: I have not heard a single question about whether

or not the information is correct, whether or not the information is true,

whether or not in fact the things that are being laid out there, information for

the people of the Province, are in fact depicting what is happening in

Newfoundland and Labrador, because they all know it is the truth, Mr. Speaker.

It is the fact that these are the things - we have made the commitments more so

than ever, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Premier.

PREMIER GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

We have made the commitments stronger, Mr. Speaker, and more so than ever, in

this year for education, for health care, for basic infrastructure in the

Province to support the fishery, to support economic development, and it is

important, Mr. Speaker, that the people of the Province know that. As a result

of the information campaign, they will have the basic information and we will

gladly debate the content of that with anybody in the Province, with a record

that shows that the people of the Province supported and are satisfied -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. the Premier now to conclude his answer.

PREMIER GRIMES: - with what this government is doing in Newfoundland and

Labrador.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Question Period has ended.

Notices of Motion

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance and President of Treasury

Board.

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow move

that the House resolve itself into a Committee of the Whole to Consider Certain

Resolutions Respecting The Imposition Of Certain Mining And Mineral Rights

Taxes. (Bill 21)

Mr. Speaker, I further give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to

introduce a bill entitled, "An Act to Amend the Teachers' Pensions

Act." (Bill 22)

Mr. Speaker, I further give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to

introduce a bill entitled, "An Act Respecting An Agreement With The

Newfoundland And Labrador Medical Association." (Bill 33)

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Justice.

MR. PARSONS: Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave

to introduce a bill entitled, "An Act Respecting Interjurisdictional

Support Orders." (Bill 30)

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health and Community Services.

MR. SMITH: Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave

to introduce a bill entitled, "An Act To Amend The Cancer Treatment And

Research Foundation Act, The Health And Community Services Act, The Hospitals

Act; The Medical Care Insurance Act, 1999 And The Vital Statistics Act."

(Bill 24)

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Education.

MS FOOTE: Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to

introduce a bill entitled, "An Act To Amend The Teachers' Association

Act." (Bill 26)

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Government Services and Lands.

MR. NOEL: Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to

introduce a bill entitled, "An Act To Amend The Automobile Insurance Act,

The Insurance Companies Act And The Highway Traffic Act To Effect Certain

Reforms Respecting Automobile Insurance Arising From The Recommendations Of The

Select Committee To Review The Property And Casualty Insurance Industry And The

Government's Public Consultation." (Bill 28)

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Minister of Human Resources and Employment.

MR. RALPH WISEMAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a

bill entitled, "An Act Respecting The Provision Of Income And Employment

Support To The People Of The Province." (Bill 23)

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Work, Services and Transportation.

MR. BARRETT: Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave

to introduce a bill entitled, "An Act To Amend The Highway Traffic Act No.

3." (Bill 29)

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Conception Bay East & Bell

Island.

MR. WALSH: Mr. Speaker, I want to put forward a private member's

resolution:

WHEREAS the government of this Province is already cooperating with other

jurisdictions to develop and implement measures to reduce greenhouse gas

emissions; and

WHEREAS a fully developed and analyzed plan has not yet been developed by the

federal government for the Kyoto Protocol if it is ratified by the Parliament of

Canada; and

WHEREAS this Province is just entering a period of development of a new oil

industry which could be negatively impacted by an ill-conceived plan;

BE IT RESOLVED that this House of Assembly support government's efforts to

ensure a Made in Canada solution, that balances the need for addressing climate

change with economic development, while complying with the Statement of

Principles developed by the Provincial and Territorial Ministers of Energy and

Environment at their recent meetings.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi.

MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce the

following resolution:

WHEREAS changes in criteria for the Federal Disability Tax Credit have

resulted in many fewer people qualifying for the Disability Tax Credit; and

WHEREAS the federal government has already denied 30,000 disabled Canadians

eligibility to claim the $900 a year Disability Tax Credit, including many

hundreds of Newfoundlanders and Labradorians; and

WHEREAS the definition of disability used for this tax credit is so

restrictive that it unfairly and punitively disallows persons with disabilities

the Disability Tax Credit; and

WHEREAS since more that one-third of Canadians with severe disabilities live

in poverty, the Disability Tax Credit is an essential economic support for

disabled Canadians facing financial hardship; and

WHEREAS the federal government has proposed changes to the Income Tax Act

that will result in even more people being disallowed this tax credit;

THEREFORE

BE IT RESOLVED that the Newfoundland and Labrador House of Assembly

Credit;

AND BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that the Newfoundland and Labrador House of

criteria for the Disability Tax Credit.

Mr. Speaker, given the nature of this resolution, I spoke to the Government

House Leader a little earlier and I wonder if there might be unanimous consent

in the House for the Government Leader and the Opposition to look at this

resolution for potential debate today, or the resolution to be passed today by

unanimous consent, if that is the wish of the House. I do not believe it is a

controversial resolution in that I believe all hon. members would find support

for this resolution, which would seek to restore the Disability Tax Credit which

has been negatively affecting so many Newfoundlanders and Labradorians and

Canadians.

Petitions

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Bonavista South.

MR. FITZGERALD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I rise today to present a petition. The petition reads:

To the House of Assembly of Newfoundland and Labrador, in legislative session

convened, the petition of the undersigned residents of Newfoundland and

Labrador.

WHEREAS one of the main roads from Route 235 through the community of

Princeton is a gravel road usually in a deplorable condition, with mud and dust

causing uncomfortable living; and

WHEREAS this road has never been paved and is the main thoroughfare leading

to approximately half of the community of Princeton;

WHEREFORE your petitioners urge the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador

to upgrade where necessary and pave the 400 metres of road leading from Route

235 through the community of Princeton.

And as in duty bound your petitioners will ever pray.

Mr. Speaker, this is a

section of road which the petition clearly states is

400 metres. It is not 400 kilometres or 400 miles; it is 400 metres leading

through half of the community of Princeton. The people in Princeton are not

asking for curb and gutter. They are not asking for street lights, or for water

and sewer. They are not asking for anything that is not the acceptable norm of

today. They are asking that the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation

include this particular piece of roadway - 400 metres that goes through half of

the community of Princeton - to have it upgraded and paved and brought up to a

standard acceptable to the year 2002.

It is a road that I have continually put forward to the minister, and to

ministers before this minister, as a priority. It is a road that I have gone

back after the budget allocations have been made, and said: Mr. Transportation

Minister, Mr. Administrator in Clarenville, would you go down and take another

look at this

section of road and see if it can be added to this year's budget?

It is a piece of road that services - and I am going to guess here - probably

twenty-five households. It is the main road leading through that part of the

community. The road does not need any major upgrading. I do not think it needs

anything other than some ditching, and to shape up the road and pave it. That is

what the people in Princeton are asking for. That is the reason I am bringing

this petition to the attention of the minister and to the attention of the

government here today. I ask you, Mr. Speaker, I ask through you that the

minister would take this petition seriously; he would look at allocating funds

to upgrade and pave, for the first time, 400 metres of road leading through the

community of Princeton.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Labrador West.

MR. COLLINS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I rise today to present a petition on behalf of a number residents of

Labrador West. The petition reads:

WHEREAS the Labrador Transportation Initiative Fund was set up with $347

million from the federal government for transportation in Labrador; and

WHEREAS the Transportation Initiative Fund requires that money in the Fund be

used for the maintenance and construction of the Trans-Labrador Highway, and

other initiatives related to transportation in Labrador; and

WHEREAS the government announced that $97 million would be taken out of this

Fund and added to the general revenues of the Province to be used for purposes

outside the act.

We, the undersigned petitioners, believe that the raiding of the Labrador

Transportation Fund is a gross violation of the purposes of the Fund and a

breach of trust with the people of Labrador and hereby petition the House of

Assembly to direct the government to immediately put money back into this Fund.

I notice, Mr. Speaker, on the legislative agenda for this sitting of the

House of Assembly that government intends to proceed with legislation to take

this money out of that Fund and use it for purposes that it was not intended;

that will be debated through this sitting of the House. I am sure a lot of

members will want to have input into bringing up to the government how wrong

this is to the people who live in Labrador and deserve a better road network

than they have right now. Government has promised that they will spend, over the

next six years, money to complete Phase III of the highway. But, I say to the

Minister of Works, Services and Transportation, that may not happen. I do not

feel confident, and the people of Labrador do not feel confident, that

government will have the money to do what they stated they would do once this

money in the Fund is gone.

In addition to that, Mr. Speaker, people are very concerned about the

condition of the already completed sections of the Trans-Labrador Highway,

particularly the

section between Labrador West and Happy Valley-Goose Bay. That

road is treacherous at the best of times. It is in constant need of repair.

There is not enough equipment operating on that road. If government, instead of

using their own department to do the work that is required and when necessary on

that road, issues out a contract for private companies to bid on the roadwork

for that

section of highway - obviously, from what has been happening in recent

years, a contractor bids a certain amount of money, then that is what he has to

spend and they cannot respond to things when they are needed and required

because they have to be conscious of their budget at all times. This, Mr.

Speaker, is the price that people in Labrador are paying, having to drive over

second-rated roads in this Province, roads that other people in this Province

would not tolerate, would not put up with for one second.

Over the past few weeks and few months, Mr. Speaker, there has been a study

conducted on the Trans-Labrador Highway and a damage report, not in terms of

human life - although that has happened and it is very sad indeed -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

MR. COLLINS: By leave, Mr. Speaker, just to clue up?

MR. SPEAKER: Does the hon. member have leave?

AN HON. MEMBER: By leave.

MR. SPEAKER: By leave.

MR. COLLINS: There has been a study conducted, Mr. Speaker, a very

comprehensive report on the Trans-Labrador Highway and the damage that people

have sustained to their vehicles while travelling there, and I will be bringing

that to the minister's attention in the days and weeks to come. It is

something the minister should be very much aware of because this is an issue

that is not going to go away until people in Labrador have a decent road to

drive on, the same as people and their counterparts in other parts of this

Province.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Orders of the Day

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, Order 7, second reading of a bill, "An Act To

Amend The Highway Traffic Act." (Bill 15)

Motion, second reading of a bill, "An Act To Amend The Highway Traffic

Act." (Bill 15)

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Government Services and Lands.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. NOEL: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

I take great pleasure in rising to move second reading of this bill which

will make Newfoundland and Labrador the first Province in the country to ban the

use of hand-held cellphones by drivers while driving.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. NOEL: I said the bill would do that.

I am sure that we can count on the hon. members opposite to have the good

sense to support this initiative of the government.

I guess, Mr. Speaker, we are the first Province to move this far along

because we have been aware of the problems we are having with automobile

insurance in our Province. Rates have been going up significantly. This House

appointed a committee some six years ago to deal with it. When I first became

minister of the department, almost a couple of years ago, we looked at what

needed to be acted on. One of the things that needed to be acted on was to see

what government could do to help control the rise in the cost of automobile

insurance in the Province. In the course of discussions involved with that

initiative, we spoke to many people about what we could do to improve highway

safety.

The medical association of Newfoundland and Labrador was on record as

recommending that the Province bring in a piece of legislation of this nature in

order to ban the use of handheld phones. Other organizations and individuals in

the Province encouraged us to do likewise, including many police officers in the

Province and more recently, the senior citizens association. The Canadian

Medical Association is on record as calling for the implementation of this kind

of legislation throughout the country.

Mr. Speaker, we move to do this because we want to do all we can to decrease

the number of traffic accidents in the Province, to decrease the lives that are

being taken as a result of traffic accidents, to decrease the damage that is

being caused and to make sure that we make driving in our Province, in

particular - and hopefully, through what we are doing here, encouraging the rest

of the country to take a similar initiative.

Some thirty countries in the world have taken action similar to what we are

proposing here. One state in the United States has done so, New York. Their

legislation came into effect about a year ago. A number of jurisdictions

throughout North America have looked at implementing this sort of legislation.

There are bills now before most states in the United States, and both houses in

the American Congress.

All of the provinces in Canada are looking at implementing such legislation

and looking at what will happen once we do so in this Province.

Just last September, Mr. Speaker, we had a meeting of the ministers'

responsible for transportation in the country, in Winnipeg. We had included in

that agenda the discussion of the proposal to ban the use of handheld phones by

drivers. In the course of those discussions, Mr. Speaker, all of the provinces

indicated that they understand that it is a problem; it is a problem that needs

to be dealt with. Some provinces have already looked at initiatives. Initiatives

have been taken in some provinces. Private member's bills have been

introduced. Right now I think there is one before the Ontario Legislature. The

Province of Nova Scotia have said that they are looking at what Newfoundland is

doing. They have also said they would not like to take such a move until it is

done by all provinces throughout the country.

Well, as we know, Mr. Speaker, it is not very easy to get all provinces to

move in unison. That is why we have been prepared to lead the way and to act on

this legislation which many of our people are demanding. Many of the people in

our own Province, as well as across the country. We did an opinion poll last

year, Mr. Speaker, which indicated that some 95 per cent of our population feel

that the use of cellphones by drivers is a problem, and a clear majority

indicated that the use of handheld phones by drivers while driving should be

banned. Thirty-nine percent, I think it was, indicated that they felt drivers

should be allowed to use hands-free phones while driving.

There have been many studies done around the world, some in Canada itself,

which have demonstrated conclusively to anybody who has read them and who has

researched the issue, these studies together - and there have been some studies

that have differing opinions but the bulk of the studies and the bulk of the

research demonstrates that the use of cellphones by drivers while driving

impedes the person's ability to drive safely. Most of the people who have

looked into this scientifically have recommended that governments take the kind

of action that we are taking now.

Now some people say, Mr. Speaker, you should go all the way and eliminate the

use of all cellphones by drivers while driving because the problem is not so

much with the mechanics of using a handheld phone, although that is a problem in

itself, but the main problem with the use of cellphones is that people get

caught up in the conversation. A lot of the other jurisdictions who have looked

at bringing in similar legislation say: yes, we agree that should be done. Yes,

we agree that we have to do all we can to reduce the number of distractions that

drivers are subjected to while driving because we are getting more and more

distractions and more serious distractions in cars everyday, Mr. Speaker. Some

of them are pretty sophisticated distractions now.

I note that the private member's bill before the Ontario Legislature is

calling for a banning of the use of fax machines by drivers while driving;

banning of the use of computers by drivers while driving. That is an indication,

Mr. Speaker, and evidence of the kind of dangers that are out there today and

the kind of growing dangers that we are facing. There are so many of these

gimmicks that are now available to be used by drivers while driving, as they

spend a lot of time on the highways, that if we do not do something, if we do

not start sending a message to these drivers that what they are doing is very

dangerous, it is jeopardizing their own safety, jeopardizing their own financial

situation and threatening the lives and the health of their fellow citizens and

other people they share the highways with.

We have to do this for one reason, Mr. Speaker, to send the right message out

to the public to say: Look, driver distractions are a serious problem in our

society today. We have to do something about it, and let's start with this.

Mr. Speaker, we have not chosen to go further than banning the use of

hand-held phones because we think that is what there is substantial public

support for out there now, and we think that is a reasonable first step,

particularly in view of the experience in other jurisdictions. As far as I know,

all of the jurisdictions which have taken action have limited their action to

banning the use of hand-held phones. I do not think any of them have banned the

use of hands-free phones.

There is an argument to be made that if you use these phones responsibly, as

many people do, then they may not be a serious distraction, but lots of people

think that they use these phones responsibly and they are not seriously

distracted by them, but many of those people who feel that way have recounted to

me incidents in their own lives in which they found that they lost their

attention to driving because they were involved in using cellular phones.

That again, Mr. Speaker, is a result of what the studies demonstrate that the

problem is, that you get caught up in the telephone conversation. There is clear

scientific evidence that people do get caught up in the conversation and that

the consequences are more serious than driving with an alcohol blood content

above the legal limit. Studies have demonstrated that driving while using a

cellphone is more dangerous than driving while legally intoxicated.

Mr. Speaker, we feel that it is incumbent on governments to deal with this

clear evidence that is out there and to do what we can to make sure that we make

our highways as safe as possible.

Some time in the future we may decide that it is necessary to go another

step, necessary to ban the use of hands-free phones. Hands-free phones may not

be as dangerous because they do not involve the mechanics of holding a hand-held

phone, dialing a hand-held phone and that sort of thing, but once you get past

those few mechanics the problems associated with being caught up in the

conversation are the same whether you are using a hands-free or a hand-held

instrument. As I say, all of the studies demonstrate that people get caught up

in their conversations much of the time.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. NOEL: Pardon me?

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) penalty provision?

MR. NOEL: I will get to the penalties. I want to talk about the good

things about this legislation before we get to some of the things that are going

to be costly for some of our citizens.

Many people use these instruments frequently and responsibly. As long as you

do so you probably will not cause any accidents, but the problem is that you

might be caught up in an event that is very important in your life. You might

get a phone call about the health of your children, a family situation or a

financial situation, or a call to the House, to come in and be here for a vote,

or something like that, and you may be distracted from how normally responsible

you are when you are doing this. That is the problem, as we all know. You only

want to be caught one time and you could lose your own life, you could kill

somebody else, or you could create enormous financial costs.

Mr. Speaker, I think that we should proceed with passing this legislation. I

think that we should not be intimidated by the fact that other provinces have

not had the commitment to move in this direction when they know that something

should be done. Practically everybody you speak to, even politicians who are

refusing to act on these issues, will tell you that they believe it is a danger

to be using cellphones while driving, a danger for drivers to be using

cellphones while driving, but they say they are not acting on this because there

are many other distractions to drivers. Drivers do many other things while they

are driving, so they say: What is the point in doing this if you are not going

to eliminate the right to drink coffee while you are driving, or to play CDs and

these kinds of things?

While these activities are dangerous activities and people should be

discouraged from partaking in them, the fact is that people do not normally get

caught up in these sorts of activities in the same way as they get caught up,

and particularly in the same way as their mind gets caught up, in using cellular

telephones.

Other people say, Mr. Speaker, that this will be a difficult law to enforce.

Well, as I said earlier, the main thing that we want to do with this legislation

is send the message to the public that you have to be more careful about

driving, and particularly you have to be more careful about using cellphones in

cars.

It will not matter, Mr. Speaker, if we do not catch everybody who uses a

cellphone while driving. The fact is that this will be the law and everybody

will know it is the law, and they know that if they use their cellphones while

they are driving, they will be contravening the law.

That is a good message to have out there, Mr. Speaker, and it is a

particularly useful message in these days when we are trying to do something

about the cost of insurance in our Province, and the cost of automobile

insurance and automobile liability insurance in particular.

We are doing a number of things. We have a number of proposed bills on the

Order Paper now to do things to try and reduce the risk of accidents and damage

on our highways and the loss of life. This is one of them.

Another bill we are going to bring in is stricter penalties for impaired

drivers, and we are going to bring in a bill to have a Consumer Advocate

represent consumer interest before the Public Utilities Board.

As I gave notice today, Mr. Speaker, we will be introducing a bill proposing

far more extensive amendments to our insurance legislation during this sitting

of the House of Assembly.

Mr. Speaker, we are not proposing terribly severe penalties for people who

disobey this law. The penalty will provide for a fine, I think, on first

conviction, of between $45 and $180, and the loss of four demerit points from

your driving record. The bill will not interfere with the use or the presence of

cellphones in cars. People will be free to have their phones with them.

Passengers will be free to use the phones while the car is in motion. The only

thing this bill will provide for is the prevention of drivers from using

hand-held phones while driving. You know, you do not need to use them, even

though lots of people think they need to use them today. A number of people have

said to me: You know, I use my cellphone, while driving, a lot. I know I should

not be doing it but I know I will continue doing it as long as it is legal. They

know they should not be doing it because practically everybody - and I would say

most people in this House have had an experience wherein either they themselves

or somebody they know of, or somebody they were driving with on the roads, have

come close to having accidents or have actually had accidents. If you would just

ask your friends and associates, I think you will find that everybody has a

story about how somebody went through a red light or went through a stop sign or

almost had an accident because they were on cellphones.

The reality, Mr. Speaker, is that more and more people are using cellphones

in this way every day, and the time has come for us to demonstrate that this is

not acceptable to our society and for us to show that we are prepared to take

action to discourage such use.

Mr. Speaker, I will leave my introduction there and will be happy to answer

any questions that other members may have.

I move second reading of this bill.

Thank you.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER (Mercer): The hon. the Member for St. Barbe.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. YOUNG: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

We on this side of the House support the amendment to Bill 15. I think common

sense in this bill is what overrides almost anything, and the fact of the many

stories around the table with friends and colleagues who are talking about the

close calls they have had with cellphones. Those stories they go on and hit us

to the core.

When you sit down and debate whether it is more dangerous when you are

actually dialing your cellphone, the mechanical part of it verses the

conversation and the heated part of the conversations that you certainly get

into, when that becomes part of the debate around the table then I think it is,

without a doubt, a concern enough that we do something about it. I think when

you bring in the law then it certainly tells a story for everybody as to how

serious it is and how society feels about it. To lose four points for such an

infraction is certainly a good indication of the seriousness that society has

taken for this infraction as well.

There is mounting evidence of the cellphones that are out there, and there

are certainly indications of how serious it is. One, I suppose, is a 1997 study

of the New England Journal of Medicine which found that drivers talking

on cellphones, whether hand-held or hands-free, were four times more likely to

get into an accident than drivers who did not. Those kinds of figures are

certainly a good indication of the seriousness of it as well. Four times more

likely. If you only stopped to think about what that really meant, it would

probably keep you from going ahead and using a cellphone. Unfortunately figures

like that do not generally give you a true picture of the risk you are really

taking when you go back and look at those figures; however, we should be.

I think another indicator of just how serious this is, is when Ford Motor

Company launches a driver distraction study, when the industry itself then knows

that they have to be part of the plan in order to curb the use of cellphones

because of the impact it has on the industry, of which obviously Ford is very

much a part, being one of the major car companies of the world.

To have thirty countries in this world who have already gone through banning

cellphones, as the minister just indicated, and the State of New York, means we

are leading the way in Canada but we are not leading the way in the world. We

are following. There are many places were society, I suppose, have developed and

gone on to respect the rights of others, who have certainly said how important

this is and how dangerous this infraction is, of using a cellphone and going out

and risking the lives of your neighbours and fellow motorists on the highway,

and that it cannot continue. We must deal with this before it gets too far done

the road and the casualty list is too long.

The fact that a man in Ontario was charged with two counts of dangerous

driving causing bodily harm is also an indication of how far we have gone down

this road. It is another indicator of a part of the evidence and part of the

reaction by society to go out there and make sure that we are going to take care

of this problem. Yet, here in Newfoundland we are taking a lead role in Canada

to go out and go further down.

Handheld; as I said, part of the debate has been around about the mechanical

part of dialing and getting hold to friends and relatives in answering the phone

and finding your cellphone as you are going down the road (inaudible) actually

the conversation. I suppose, as part of the debate, that goes - so many people

say: Well, you are only going part of the way in solving part of the problem. It

is not enough. You should be doing it as a whole now. You are going out there

and you are changing the law. Lets do it and lets really solve the problem that

we have instead of just going only part of the way. The study in the New

England Journal of Medicine had indicated that; either with or without

handheld, it was four times more likely to have an accident. It is dangerous

regardless whether you have handheld phones or you are hands-free; but I guess

it takes time to change. I think society in one sense does want change, but it

wants change in a structured manner. It wants to be able to respond and change

gradually, versus to jump out there and go ahead.

One of the things that I think about of twenty years ago is that you had the

drinking and driving laws (inaudible) in place. They did not go in place in one

day, it was many years before they came out. If you were to jump back into

society twenty years ago it would be quite a shock of what you would see in

society and how we accepted drinking and driving and all the laws on the roads;

but today we have changed gradually and we have accepted it gradually. I think

society would like that, so that it is not a shock in the changes that we have,

that we can adjust and go accordingly. I think that is an important part of any

changing in the law when you come to the change in lifestyles, which we are

expecting a number of people now who depend on lifestyles. Our lifestyles depend

on communications before we get there and after we leave. It seems that the

meetings we have is only a part of th