Manitoba Hansard — 22 April 1977 (Sitting 45A, 30th Legislature, 4th Session)

30-4-45a

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

TIME: 10:00 a.m. THE LEGISLA TIVE ASSEMBLY of MANITOBA Friday, April 22, 1977 OPENING PRAYER by Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER, Honourable Peter Fox (Kildonan): Before we proceed I should like to dir ect the attention of the honourable members to the gallery whe re we have 25 students, Grade 5 stand ing, of the St. Charles Academy. These students are under the dir ection of Mrs. La Fleche. This school is located in the constituency of the Honour able Member for Assin iboia. On behalf of all the honourable members of the Legislative Assembly I we lcome you here this morn ing.

Presenting Petitions; Reading and Receiving Petitions; Presenting Reports by Standing and Spec ial Comm ittees. MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minis ter for Health. HONOURABLE LAURENT L. DESJ ARDINS (St. Boniface): Mr. Speaker, I'd like leave of the House to perform a very sad duty and make a short statement. I haven't a prepared statement; I'd like leave of the House. MR. SPEAKER: Does the Honourable Min ister have leave? (Agreed) The Honourable Mi nister. MR. DESJARDINS: Mr .

Speaker, around seven o'clock last night when I got home I received a call from the staff in Portage la Prairie that they had a fire at the School for the Retarded. I drove to Portage and found out that, indeed, there had been a very sad fire there. ltwas in an old build ing, the in formation that I have there were 52 inma tes; 44 of them wer e taken out safely. ! think the death rate is five now and one very criti cally ill who is expected to go anytime and another one critic ally ill. The Fire Comm issioner and the RCMP were there.

They are going to bring in a report that I hope to have maybe later on today. lt was shortly after the dinn er hour. There were two staff members with these people. I wou ldn't want the rumours to state that these people were locked up. They were not locked up. Their staff was wit h them but they were about the wor st at the school. The level of function ing was very poor. They were around 20 years old. For ins tance one of the staff took one of the in mates out and left him out to go and get another one but he followed her right back in.

The firemen had trouble wi th the armoured plate glass wind ow to protect these people. They had trouble breaking these windo ws to bring in the water. Staff, I think , show ed a lot of concern . Many of the staff people, when I was there, came in and volunteered to work to help with the kids; I shouldn't say kids , they act like kids but I think they were, as I said, around . their twenties. We got in touch with the Federal Public Works Department to see if we could use the former Indi an Student Residence. We received the okay today.

We're going to work wit h our own Public Works Department to put it in shape and during the weekend we expect to move the ... Not the same; not those that lost their residence. There will have to be some adjustment because these people, as I said, the level of functioning is quite low, we wou ldn't want them a mi le and a half from the school, but there will be some adjustment and they'll all be taken care of. Thank you. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opp ositi on. MR. STERLING R. LYON (Souris-Killarney): Mr. Speaker, I thank the Honourable Min ister for his statement.

This is one of those sad events that happens, fortunately rarely' in ins titutions over whic h the province has jurisd iction. I know from experience that it is something that the supervisory staff, the admin istrative staff, and indeed the Mi nis ter himself live in dread of happen ing. In my experience, and I'm sure in his, this is probably the wor st institutional ! know from experience that it is something that the supervisory staff, the admin istrative staff and in deed the Min ister hims elf live in dr ead of happening.

In my experience and I am sure in his, this is probably the worst ins titutional incid ent of this sort, death or series of deaths of this sort, certainl y that I can recall and we are pleased, of course, to have the Min ister's assurance that a full and comp lete investigation will be carried out with respect to the causes of this unfortunate inc ident, not so much for the benefit of the staff or for the Min ister and his department, but really to put at ease the mi nds of parents who have chi ldren and other loved ones comm itted to that institution and other ins titutions.

And so we join with him in expressing si ncere sympathies to the parents and the famil ies of those who sad ly were lost in the fire last night. We pray, along wi th all others' that there will be no further deaths arising from this inci dent, and I am sure we can expect from the Min ister, as and when he receives the reports when they come in from the Fire Commissioner's office, from the R from CMP andothers, full reports to the House on what caused this conflagr ation in the building.

Some of the buildi ngs on that location, as the Mi nister wi ll wel l know, are old; some of the new cottage structures have been built over the last 15 -2 0years and wou ld not ordinarily be thought to be subject to this kind of fire. We wou ld hope that in the intervening time, that the Minis ter wou ld see fit to have the Department of Labour, and others who have responsibil ity, check the wir ing and check any of the 2231

Friday, April 22, 1977 other possi ble causes that mi ght have led to this fire of last evening, to make sure, naturally as he wou ld wish and as we woul d all wish, that there would be no danger of a simil ar occurrence taking place.

I suppo se it is always on these occasions that these matters are brought to our attention with respect to all provi nc ial institutions and I know that the Min ister, along wi th his colleague, the Min ister of Corrections, would want to ensure that aris ing out of this sad event, those exami nations are made of all provincial institutional buildin gs where people are incarcerated, either through the operation of the law or by reason of their own mental deficienc y and so on, to ensure that as much as humanly possible, and we all know that it is not alwa ys totally possible, but as much as it is poss ible with in the powers of ins pection that we have, to ensure that in mates in other ins titutions will not be under the fear of this kind of event occurring in those in stitutions.

So we thank the Min ister for the statement and we wil l look forward to hearing further reports from him as they reach him. MR. SPEAKER: Any other Min isterial Statements or Tabling of Reports? Notices of Motion; Introduction of Bi lls. ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER: Before we proceed on the Question Period, sinc e there has been some concern in respect to the Question Period , let me suggest Beauchesne Citation 171 in respect to the Question and I hope to get the co-operation of the honourable members.

"In putting a question, a member must confine himself to the narrowest li mits in making a question, observations wh ich might lead to debate can not be regarded as com ing within the proper lim its of a question . The purpose of a question is to obtain information and not to supp ly it to the House." And just for the fi rst (

a) and (b), "The question , oral or writ ten, must not (

a) be iron ical, rhetorical, offensi ve or contain epithet, inn uendo, satire or ridicul e and must not be trivial, vague or meaningless." That's one part. The second

part is Beauchesne's Citation 181 in respect to answers. "Questions must be answer ed briefly and dis ti nctly and be lim ited to the necessary explanations, though a certain amount of latitude is permitted to the Min isters of the Crown whene ver they find it necessary to extend their remarks. An answer to a question placed by a member on the Order Paper cannot contain gratuitous references. If it does, it must be expunged. " I shall try to abide by that. I hope the honourable members wil l co-operate wi th me. Questions. MR. LYON: Mr.

Speaker, I have a question for the Fir st Mi nister relative to com ments made last evening by the Premier of On tario with respect to the Province of Quebec. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Is that necessary to our procedures in this House? MR. LYON: On ce the question is put, Mr. Speaker, we may then be in a position to judge it. The Premier of Ontario made the statement that separation in a political sense for the Provin ce of Quebec could not necessarily lead to co-operation in an economic sense wit hin the framework of a new Canada that Quebec is looking for.

I was wondering if the First Min ister could make comment upon that statement vis-a-vis . . . . MR. SPEAKER: Order please. You are asking for an opinion. The question is out of order. MR. LYON: Mr. Speaker, the question is in order. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. We wil l follow Beauchesne's Citation 171. MR. LYON: On a point of order. MR. SPEAKER: Very well. MR. LYON: The point of order is, Sir , that it is alwa ys in order to ask a Fi rst Mi nister or a Min ister of the Crown the position of the government of Manit oba vis-a-vis a public statement made with respect, in this case, to national unit y.

Now I suggest, Sir, with the greatest of respect, that is clearly in order. -( lnterjection)- MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourable Fi rst Min ister. HONOURABLE EDWARD SCHREYER, Premier (Rossmere): Mr. Speaker, I am quite prepared to answer because the question as put, as I understand it, is relevant in that it asks for the opinion of this government in relation to the matter of confederation, the attitude of other provinc es relative to certain questions.

In that context, Sir , I would say that I do not di sagree with the main substance expressed as I heard it last evening by the Premier of On tario, that the effects of pol itical separation would be so unfortunate as to render di fficult, if not im possible, any economic co-operation of the kind that seems to be band ied about and talked about by representatives of the current government of Quebec. MR. LYON: A supp lementary. Could the Fi rst Min ister advise if he has had the opportunit y of recent dis cussions wi th Min isters of the government of Quebec, such as the Honourable Mr.

Morin who was here a week ago, to express that same opinion to them? MR. SCHREYER: I have expressed that opinion, Mr. Speaker, to two Min isters of the government of the Province of Quebec, the Honourable Mr. Morin and the Honourable Mr. Giroux. ln both cases I expressed the point much along the same li nes, that the cons equences of politic al separation would 2232

Friday, April 22, 19 77 be so unfortunate at as to re nder secondary these other theories of economic co-operation and common market, etc., etc. MR. LYON: A supplem entary, Mr. Speaker. I wonder if the First Min ister has had occasion, or the Min ister of Fina nce, to produce - or will have before the House prorogues - to produce for the benefit of Manitobans a statement vis-a-vis our po sition in confederation in the doll ars-and-cent s category as is produced by the Provincial Treasurer of On tario in his budget of last week. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minis ter of Fi nance. HONOURABLE SAUL A.

MILLER {Seven Oaks): Well, no, Mr. Speaker, it was not my intention to bring that today. Certainl y such an exercise could be gone through. I am not surewhat it wou ld prove or not prove. Manit oba is part of Canada and I hope we remain part of Canada forever, irrespective of whether we are a few dollars up or do wn. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Memb er for Minn edosa. MR. DAVID BLAKE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

In the absence of the Honourable Mini ster responsible for Renewable Resources, I dir ect my question to the First Minis ter. lt results from a statement attributed to the Mi nister of Renewa ble Resources at the Inland Fishermen's Association meeting at the Visc ount Court wher ein he said that he would assist in leading the way out of the Freshwater Fish Marketing Corporation. I wonder if the First Min ister could comment. Is it the government's position to endeavour to find some marketing vehicle for the fishermen outside of the Freshwater Fish Marketing Corporation. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Fi rst Min ister. MR. SCH REYER: Well, Mr. Speaker, I wou ld have to di scuss that further with my colleague, the Min ister for Renewable Resources. I might just say, Sir , that whil e there are reasons for having a sense of frustration with the Freshwater Fish Marketing Corporation, that our memories are not that short as to forget that there was great misery indeed in the marketing mechanism that existed prior to the Freshwater Fish Marketing Corporation. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Ri ver Heights. MR. SIDNEY SPIVAK: Mr.

Speaker, my question to the First Min ister and it's fu rther to the questions that have been asked with respect to the statements of Prem ier-Davis. I wonder if the Fi rst Min ister wou ld consider the advisab ility of ask ing the Prairie Economic Council, the four Premiers, to meet and to issue a statement of supp ort for Premier Davis in con nection with the poss ibil ities of economic associat ion, so that those in Quebec will know the feeling of the rest of Canada. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourable Fi rst Min ister. MR.

SCHREYER: That matter happens to be on the agenda of the Western Premiers' Conference already, so it will be dealt with . In the meantime I don't think that the Western Premiers need take the position in support of or in opposit ion to anyth ing that is said by some other Premier in Canada. There is a certain amount of emotionalis m that I sense already coming, and we don' t intend to play on that basis. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Memb er for La Verendrye. MR. BOB BAN MAN: Mr .

Speaker, I wou ld dir ect my question to the Mini ster of Tourism and would ask him if his department is studying any ways and means of getting the MS Lord Selkir k out of its present situation in the Selkir k area. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Min ister for Tourism and Recreation . HONOURABLE BEN HANUSCHAK {Burrows): I can't see from here, Mr. Speaker ... - (lnterjecti on)- MR. SPEAKER: Order please. MR. HANUSCHAK: ... but I'm told that it's sti ll rain in g, so that situation's being attended to. MR. BAN MAN: With all due respect to the Min ister, I think his jurisd iction in that particular area is lim ited.

MR. SPEAKER: Question please. MR. BANMAN: I wou ld ask the Min ister if the bookings as far as the MS Lord Se lkir k are concerned are tied in wit h the Gull Harbour Lodge at Hecla Island at all. MR. HANUSCHAK: Yes, Mr. Speaker, we do sell a package deal for tourists, which provides transportation on the MS Lord Selkir k, coupled with accommodation at the Gull Harbour Lodge. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Ri ver Heights. MR. SPIVAK: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Honourable Mini ster of Mi nes and Natural Resources.

I wonder if he can indic ate whether the government has been able to persuade the Federal Government to allow the sale of caesium by Tantalum Min e outside of Canada. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Min ister for Mi nes. HONOURABLE SIDNEY GREEN {lnkster): Mr. Speaker, we've never tried to persuade the Federal Government to allow the sale of caesium to any other country.

What we have ind icated to the Federal Government is if they, in their wisdom, feel that caesium should not be sold to another country, that they should stockpile caesium in a simi lar way to stock pi lin g uranium, when they prevented the sale of uran ium. We have not questioned the judgment of the Federal Government with regard to the 2233

Friday, April 22, 19 77 export sale of caesium . I'm not saying that it's correct or incorrect. We have ind icated that if they do so that they should stockp ile caesium. MR. SPIVAK: I won der if the Minis ter is in a position to ind icate whether the government knows who are the people in control of the partners in Tantalum with the government. MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, the Tantalum Mi ne shares are owned essentially by four parties, Chemalloy, Kawec ki Berylco and the Manit oba Development Corporation . MR.

SPIVAK: I won der if the Min ister is in a position to indic ate whe ther the government knows who controls Chemalloy. MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, the Government of Manitoba is in partnership with Chemalloy and Kawe cki Berylco. We have not tried to examine the shar eholding list of Kawec ki Berylco or Chemalloy. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Memb er for Ri ver Heights, fina l question . MR. SPIVAK: I wonder if the Min ister is in a position to indic ate whe ther the government has attempted to try and gain audited statements of Chemalloy to determine its financial position and to determine its sharehold ing. MR.

GREEN: Mr. Speaker, despite any feelings by my honourable friend, I can tell the honourable member that the shareholders of Chemalloy have nothing to do with the operation ofTantalum Mi ne. Tantalum Mi ne is now operated by a board of di rectors which, with the Chemalloy shares, are represented by a receiver who is responsible to a court. MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. The Honourable Member for St. Johns. MR. SAUL CHERNIACK: Mr. Speaker, I have a two-part question to the Minis ter of Education .

Fi rstly, can he conf irm that in 197 4 during the federal election, at the Kelvin School, the Conservative cand idate in- I guess it's Winn ipeg South, named Lyon showed a film at the school regarding the Conservative Party and Bob Stanf ield. If that is the case, can he in form the House as to whether there has been any damage to the school system and to the system of education. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minis ter for Education . HONOURABLE IAN TURNBULL (Osborne): Mr.

Speaker, as a dir ect result of the Leader of the Opposition's questions in the House about the use of political material in schools, there have been a number of calls made to the Department of Education. As a result of those calls, I can conf irm that the Leader of the Oppositio n, present in Kelvin School in 1974, during the federal election , di d show a political Tory propaganda film to the students in that school.

I can only say, Sir , that I hope that the students there were mature enough to absorb that kind of material without harm to them. l think that the school system has not suffered as result of it, and indeed, I would not question the use of such material. But given the false indigna tion that the Leader of the Opposition showed in this House the other day, I can only conclude that his remarks show how two-faced a Tory can be. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opp ositio n. MR. LYON: I have a question, Mr. Speaker, for the Min ister of Education . In the course of his ... - (Interjections) - MR.

SPEAKER: Order please. MR. LYON: In the course of his thorough investigations di d he dis cover that the Conservative cand idate in Winn ipeg South at that time was a paid Executive Assistant of one of the Minis ters of this government or of any other government? - (Interjections) - MR. SPEAKER: Order please. MR. TURNBULL : Mr. Speaker, I indic ated in answe ring the question of the Member for St. Johns that I have not condu cted an inqu iry.

In deed, unlik e the Leader of the Opposition, I do not believe in wit ch-hunt s, but I did receive a number of calls and, as a result of those calls, I was able to confirm that he di d show a film in a school. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Ste. Rose. MR. A. R. (PETE) ADAM: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is to you, Sir. I would ask you if there is a rule on the use of sarcasm in this House, which is so often used by the Conservative Leader. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Order please. The Honourable Member for Radiss on. - (Interjections) -O rder please.

A MEMBER: The worms are squirmi ng! - (Interjections) - MR. SPEAKER: Order please. MR. SHA FRANSKY: A question to the Fi rst Min ister. Can the Min ister explain to the House how the Leader of the Official Opposition came to the conclus ion that Man itoba Hyd ro wasted some $6 0 5 mil lion of the taxpayers' money. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. ORDE R PLE ASE. The Honourable First Min ister. MR. SCHREYER: Mr.

Speaker, that question has been asked a number of times and I believe that the answer to that question is to be found in the close and detailed reading of all of the transcript of proceedings of the Comm ittee on Public Utilities. Just so there is no mi sunderstanding, I will say 2234

Friday, April 22, 19 77 quite bluntly that whether the figure is $6 00 milli on or $232 mil lion and 50 cents, that both premis es are equally idio tic, and had been dir ectly repudiated by Mr . Bateman, the chief engineer of Man itoba Hydro. MR. SHAFRANSKY: Just a question to the Fi rst Mini ster. Can the Min ister ind icate whether he has received an apology from the Leader of the Official Opp osition in this regard? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Fi rst Min ister. The Honourable Member for Morris state the point of order. MR. WARNER H. JORGENSON: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order.

Obviously, Sir, when you read the list of questions that are not permissible in this House, you stopped short of the one that is contin uously being infringed upon by the Member for Radisson. There is a rule that suggests that a question cannot be asked that multipl ies with slight variation to a simil ar question asked in the same point, or repeat in substance a question already answered to which an answer has been refused.

When you rose whr en the honourable memr posed his question, you sai2 "0 der." I want to know, Sir , if you meant that the question was out of order, in which case, if the question was out of order, it should not have been responded to. Surely, Sir, that if you are going to apply the rules relating to the question period, that they must apply on both sides of the House, not just on this side. MR. SPEAKER: I am not going to debate my ruling, but I am going to suggest .... - (Interjection) - Order please.

I am going to suggest that the rulin g in respect to repetitiveness is in one day. lt does not apply on a daily basis wher e you are going to have another question on another day. Otherwise, I wou Id have to rule out many questions on either side of the House which are asking for in formation wh ich has been asked once before in this House. And the other problem in respect to that is, that a chai rperson wou ld have to have monumental memory to know which questions were asked from the beginning of the sess ion to the end, in order to make the decisions in respect to repetitiveness.

In respect to when I asked the honourable member to come to order, it is because he was starting to extend the question and I wanted it to be kept brief and dir ect. Now, I haven't had the cooperation even this morning from the members in respect to questions, or in respect to answers. And so, therefore, I think the honourable members will just have to have a little bit of confidenc e in the Chair and to see that fair play and impartial ity prevails on both si des.

On ce a question has been floored, even though it may be out of order, in order to be fair to this Assembly, a partial reply also has to be given on occasion , or vic e versa. Someti mes a question has to be heard before one can rule that it is out of order as we ll. We shall proceed. The Honourable Member for Rad isson. MR. SHA FRANSKY: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order. I just wish you to clarif y, for my benefit, whether it is not a fact in the rule of this House that when members get up to speak and make statements,they have to be responsible for those statements, and that they must be truthful statements. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Op position. MR. LYON: Mr. Speaker, a question for the First Min ister. Havi ng heard from the monkey, we' ll now ask the question of an organ grin der. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Order please. I believe the honourable gentleman is versed well enough in parliament procedures .... ORD ER PLEAS E, that you should not make inferences or im putations on members of this Assembly. I wo uld ask him to reconsider what he just said and whether he really wants it on the record or not. MR. LYON: 1 have always been of the opinion, Mr . Speaker, if the cap fits you should wear.

A MEMBER: That's right! MR. LYON: The statement made by the Fi rst Mini ster that the statements vis-a-vis Hydro were idio tic. Would the First Min ister apply that description to the statements that have been made over the years by the Honourable Douglas Campb ell, by Mr . Kris Kristjanson, and by Mr. Spafford? Are all of those statements id iotic? MR. SCHREYER: Mr . Speaker, I'm not awar e that Mr . Camp bell ever contended that it was $6 00 milli on or $232 mil lion or wh atever. But what is id iotic in this context, Mr.

Speaker, is that it has been contended by my honourable friend that the precise engineering sequence of development of the Nelson River was imposed as a solution on the Man itoba Hydr o and Mr. Bateman has in dicated on more than one occasion now that that is precisely wha t was not the case. As he point ed out and put on the record several times, the sequence of development is accord ing to the engineering Task Force Ana lysis as economic an alternative as any for the development of the Nelson.

That, Sir , followed by the point that the Leader of the Op position has said he is not questioning the competence of the engin eering of Man itoba Hyd ro, he has now then got the answer from the senior engineers of Man itoba Hydro, that there has been no imp osition of a pol itical solution on an engineeri ng problem. Now, he can' t have it both ways. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. LYON: Having heard the First Minis ter's non -answer, Mr. Speaker, could the Min ister answer this question? Is the First Min ister prepared to hear Mr. Campbell , Mr. Kris tjanson and Mr. Spafford 2235

Friday, April 22, 19 77 in the Public Utilitie s Committee on the very point about which he seems to be so tender? MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, it is not as though I haven't heard them. I have heard them many times. I had meetings and conversations with them years ago and in the final analysis, Mr. Speaker, it wou ld have been a case of whether one takes the advice of a consensus of opinion, of the professional engin eering opini on, or whether one takes the advice of one or two.

Now, I don't know on wha t basis my honourable friend operates but when a consensus of professional opini on recommends and suggests this manner of action , if five members of a Board of Directors of six recommend this course of action and one recommends this, I wou Id be foolhardy indeed to say: five say yea; one say nay - the nays have it. And that's wha t my honourable friend is suggesting. MR. LYON: A supp lementary, Mr . Speaker. If my honourable friend , the Fi rst Min ister, is so prepared to disregard the advice of Mr. Campb ell, why was Mr. Camp bell his first appo intment to that Board? MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Fi rst Min ister. Order ple ase. Order please. MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, that question has never been asked before. it indeed is one of the more memorable events of decisio ns I have taken sinc e I have been in pol itics. In a way, Sir, nothing has been more traumatic to me than to have an appo intment - which I admit I recommended and whi ch I was very happy about - turn out in the way in which it did.

But, in the final analysis, whatever my feelings of goodwill and sentiment and nostalgia, I would have been a fool, Sir , to ignore the advice and recommendatio ns which came in a preponderance in one way because one person said that he saw it somewhat dif ferent.

In that list, Sir , I have to inc lude such people as the late Bill Parker, such as the Head of the Faculty of Engi neering at the Un iversity of Man itoba, Dean Hoogstraten, such as Tom Storey, the career engineer with Winnip eg Hydro and in later years with Man itoba Hydro and vice-c hairman of Man itoba Hydro - -(I nterjection)- oh yes he was, at that tim e he was. Mr . Speaker, the Board of Di rectors did place a message in dicating the reasons why they sought to recommend proceeding with the sequence as developed.

But what I conside r to be equally impor tant, perhaps more, at least equally important, is not only the message that was placed as publi c notice by the Board of Dir ectors of Manit oba Hydro back in late 1970 or early 1971 , but also the paper that was delivered to the Canadian In stitute of Professional Eng ineers as recorded in the Canadian Engin eering Journal by Mr.

Bate man to the effect that the sequence of development upon analys is by consu lting engineers and upon re-analysis by the Task Force, as he reported to the Institute of Engineers was as economic an alternative a course of development as any other for the development of the Nelson River. On that basis, I accept the confidence, I certainly have no reason, Sir, to say that because one other person saw it a di fferent way, that therefore we should have just changed everything. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Bir tle-Rus sell. MR. HARRY E. GRAHAM: Mr .

Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Member for Min nedosa, that debate be adjourned. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Let me suggest to the Honourable Member for Bir tle-Russ ell, si nce there is no motion on the floor, I don't know what he's talking about. Order please. The Honourable Member for Ste. Rose. MR. ADAM: Mr. Speaker, I wou Id lik e to ask you again, wha t is the rule of the use of being sarcastic in this House as we have wit nessed here this morning and on many other occasions. MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR. L. R. (Bud) SHERMAN: Mr.

Speaker, I have a question for the Honourable the First Minis ter. I wo uld just lik e to ask him whether he has had any indic ation from Bucking ham Palace overnight, whether the remarks that the Honourable Member for Radisson during debate on the Resolution of cong ratulations to Her Majesty yesterday have rocked the very foundations of the Commonwealth. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourable First Min ister. MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, constitutional Monarchy in the Un ited Kin gdom and the Domin ions has endured for several centuries; I think it can endure even that. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Johns. MR. CHERNIACK: Mr . Speaker, in view of the ruling that questions cannot be repetitive wit hin a day but can be from day to day, and in view of the fact that the Member for Roblin has not kept his promise to file with the House his Hydro bills which he alleged grew from 10 to $50, my question is to the First Mi nister who reports for Hydro to ascertain whether Hyd ro can produce those bill s to satisfy the prom ise of the Member for Roblin whi ch has been unkept? MR. SCHREYER: Mr.

Speaker, I don't know if the question was intended seriously, Sir , but the fact of the matter remains that Man itoba Hydro's policy - wh ich I believe is correct - is that they will release no such information with out the concu rrence of the householder or the in di vid ual firm, as the case may be. ADJOURNED DEBATES ON SECOND READING MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable House Leader. 2236

Friday, April 22, 1977 MR. GREEN: Mr . Speaker, I wo uld like to proceed with the Adjourned Debates on second reading in the order on whic h they appear on the Order Paper. MR. SPEAKER: Thank you. Proposed Bill No. 5, second reading. The Honourable Member for Bi rtle-Russel l. MR. GRAHAM: Stand , please. MR. SPEAKER: Bill No. 14. The Honourable Member for Wolseley. MR. ROBERT G. WILSON: Stand . MR. SPEAKER: Bill No. 39. The Honourable Member for Gladstone. MR. JAMES R. FERGUSON: Stand. MR. SPEAKER: Bill No. 56. The Honourable Leader of the Oppos ition. MR. LYON: Stand , please. MR. SPEAKER: Bill No. 57.

The Honourable Member for St. Vital. MR. D. JAMES WALDING: Stand. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable House Leader. MR . .1REEN: Mr. Speak<:>r, I move, seconded by the Honourable the Attorney-G eneral, that Mr. Speaker do now leave tr.e Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. MOTION presented and carried a;;d the House resolved itself into a Comm ittee of Supply with the Honourable Member for Logan in the Chair for Cont inu ing Education and the Honourable Member for St. Vital in the Chair for In dustry and Commerce. 2237

THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY of MANITOBA Friday, April 22, 1977 CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY ESTIMATES- INDUSTRY AND COMMERCE MR. CHAIRMAN, Mr. D. James Walding (St. Vital): We have a quorum, gentlemen, the Commi ttee will come to order. I wou ld refer the attention of honourable members to Page 40 in their Estima tes Book, the Department of Ind ustry and Commerce, Resolution 77 the Manitoba Housing and Renewal Corporation. The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MR. LLOYD AXWORTHY: Mr.

Chairman, last night we were just conclud ing some comments on the question of the land banking and land assembly programs and during that period the Minister ind icated that he was changing his pri orities somewhat and was now going to be concentrating on the acquisition of land in the inner city and had described it, as I've checked in Hansard , an outline of what he intends. I'd like to know more precisely what in fact the Min ister actually has in mi nd . Can he give us some ind ication of what his real targets are?

Can he tell us about the number of units or the kind of acreage that he is proposing to undertake, the extent to which he has a specific target in mind in terms of the number of unit s that may be built or produced under this new acquisition program, and particula rly the locations and places where this mi ght occur? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Min ister. HONOURABLE LEONARD S.

EVANS (Brandon East): Well last year, I understand, we put in place approximately 900 units in the inner city and I wo uld lik e to think that that's a mi nimum target but, as the honourable member knows, a lot of that accom modation was put in place by means of the proposal call hoping that we will be able to eventually obtain enough land that we need not necessari ly use this method, or if we use this method it may be a mod ified method usin g our own land . Therefore this is one of the reasons we are steppin g up our acquisi tion of wha t may be referred to as quick- start land in the inner city. MR.

AXWORTHY: I di dn't hear, wha t kind of land? MR. EVANS: Quick-start land . Not quicksand but quick -start land in the inner city.

At the moment we're attempting to obtain as much land as we possibly can. it's not as though the suppl y out there is great and vast, from what I understand, although there looks to be a lot around and everybody says there's a lot around, a lot of good land or di lapida ted build ings that should be raised and replaced with other housing , the fact is that it is not that easy to acquire and our own acquisition staff have had di fficulti es, even with lists subm itted by the City of Winnipeg' and others, where they have been reviewed and found that not all of this land wo uld be suitable for soc ial housing or indeed any kind of housing .

And therefore our target, in a sense, is almost infinity in the sense that we're trying to obtain any land that we can that is suitable and that, of course, we don't pay an arm and a leg for, so I can't quantify what our objective is and what we can obtain. At the moment, at least, it is wide apart. We wo uld like to put more units than we have in the past in the inner city, and it was 900 units last year. We'd like to put more than that in the inner city.

I can't quantify and say that we want X acres of land in the inner city, or we want Y lots of such and such a size, I simply say we're out trying to get as much as we possibly can. And not necessari ly for development all in one year but we're trying to get as much as we possibly can and for that reason, Mr. Chairman, I ind icated that we've advertised twice, or will be advertising twice, for land . In effect, we're advertising for land offers, land proposal call if you wish, and therefore we're going all out to obtain as much as we possibly can.

And we haven't put a limit on that because we're nowhere near meeting wha t I think is our need. MR. AXWORTHY: Well' Mr . Chairman, that's a little bit of an answer. I'd like to see if the Minis ter could break it down into some finer detail. To begin wi th I believe that the 900 units he is talking about' the largest percentage of those are senior ci tizens or elderly persons housing , and that there is generally very few units buil t for famili es, or sing le people, or accommodation that wou ld be replacements for people now in rooming houses, and so forth.

And I wo uld like to know, again, if the Mi nister and his staff have some indication of wha t the total demand for that type of housing is in the inner city, particula rly in comparison to the number of units that are being demolished at the present time. MR.

EVANS: Well, we know the demand is great, you know, and the staff have come up with estimates of general demand for the province and for the City of Winni peg based on various statistics avai lable to us, on the condition of the housing stock in the province and in the city, also based on data on net family formation and so on, and the estimates of senior citizens popu lation, and so on.

But, frank ly, we believe that there is such a large demand , such a great need - I'm sure we can di g in the files and get some figures somewhere - but our polic y is to go out and put every dollar we possibly can get our hands on in the investment of social housing with pri mary concentration on the inner ci ty of Winnip eg . That is, if we're talking about the City of Winnipeg the Number One target area for family housing, and to a lessor extent for senior cit izens housing , is the inner city of Win nip eg. I can assure the honourable member of that. That is a priorit y area.

I can tell him how much money 2238

Friday, April 22, 19 77 we've got. I can tell him what our intentions are in general terms. But our prob lem is' as I in dic ated a few days ago, we haven't got suffici ent land si tes in the inner city to do all that buildi ng on our own land. Therefore, we may likely go, again, for a proposal cal l system. And, again, we will tell the proponents our emphasis is on the inn er city, but I can not say that this is what is exactly going to take place.

But I just want to assure the member that this is our pri ority and we are proceeding forthwith. ! can advise that of the 694 units of family or soc ial housing built last year in the City of Winn ipeg, 396 were located in the inner ci ty of Winnip eg, so wel l over half wer e constructed in the inner ci ty. l wou ld like to see all of it, if poss ible, that's my personal preference; every last unit in the City of Winn ipeg, inner city of Winnip eg, if it were possible. That would be my personal preference and, I think, we wou ld like to see more than has occu rred.

Knowing those prioritie s, this is the way we are going but, again, it's a matter of land sites. I inv ite the honourable member to give us any sites that he think s that we can get ahold of; we'd be pleased to learn of this. We also put the question to the Honourable Member from Assinib oia, of any information of land available ... MR. AXWORTHY: And you got some answers from him too. MR. EVANS: I beg your pardon. MR. AXWORTHY: And you got some answers from him, too. MR. EVANS: No, we di dn' t get any answers; not on the lists ...

Well, he was com plaini ng about past events, but I'm talking about, you know, right no w; wh ere can be purchase some land that is suitable for soc ial housing and wher e we can buy it, you know, with in reason of cou rse. MR. AXWORTHY: Mr.

Chairman , one of the concerns that I wou ld have about the Min ister's statement he just issued is that it seems to indic ate kind of a singul arly mind ed objective about simply incr easing the numbers of social housing units in this city and doesn't seem to take into account some of the accomp anying qualities it should attach to that housing, in particu lar the retention and respect in part for the kind of com mun ities in which they are going to be placed.

There has been far too many housing Mi nisters in this province, and in other provinc es, who frankly have become so mesmerized by the almost demon ic need to create numb ers that they begin to forget that they are also building houses in co mmuni ties, and that oftentimes their acts are just as destructive as they are constructive. And that, as a result, the ambi tion simpl y to achieve a certain target or scheduling of numbers of units often times results in far more serious conseq uences than the orig inal problem.

And I think, in particular, where a Publi c Housing Corporation finds itself in the busi ness of tearing down older buildin gs wh ich already provide perfectly good accommodations, simply for the sake of incr easing densit y, but doing so at a much higher cost per unit, oftentimes at a di sruption of the residents in the area and certainl y to the detriment of the general ambia nce or environment of that commun ity that provides a certain degree of variety or di sti nctiv eness to it.

I wou ld like to know from the Min ister that, as he begins this search for properties, and particularly when he suggests that it is going to come in the proposal call, that is in part where the real danger lies, that by accepting proposal calls which are geared solely to the econom ics or engin eering criteria, and had nothing to do or say about the question of neighborhood quality or in other kinds of social concerns that, in many cases, the Man itoba Housing and Renewal Corporation will conti nue to repeat, in many cases, the same destructive tendenc ies that many private developers have of simply destroying neighborhoods as opposed to helping create them.

Therefore, I wo uld like to know what kind of guidelin es the Mi nister is setting do wn in terms of instructing the way in which this new housing program that may take place in the City will be hand led. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Min ister. MR. EVANS: Yes, Mr .

Chairman , I can advise the Hono urable Member for Fort Rouge that our research staff does assess the commun ities, we do have various inf ormation on the nature of the various commun ity sections wit hin the City and we have certain standards, we have site plann ers, we have people who are indeed concerned about the way in wh ich a particular structure may fit into, or blend into, a particular existing commun ity environment. So it is not as though we go about blindl y seeing these structures go up; we do pick and choose. As a matter of fact, of the proposal calls, we only went for 27 out of 85 proposal cal ls.

In other words, we don't accept every proposal call and one reason we don't accept - 1 mean, apart from cost or pric e - is because of the location and so we are cogn izant. As a matter of fact, I was ind icating earlier, even with our own tendering system and our own dir ect construction, there are a lot of sites that have been proposed to us that we have rejected because it is not suitable for social housing, for whatever reason - there are many, many reasons why - and some of it has to do wi th how it affects the balance with in the existing environmental arrangement in that commun ity segment of the City.

So, I wo uld not wish the member to think that we are blindl y going ahead, just slapp ing up buildi ngs wh erever we can get a pi ece of land. I know the member is concerned about certain demoli tions of existing stock that take place but, you know, one has to make a judgment on these matters and, in some cases, certain existing older buildi ngs have to go away, three or four units of a combina tion have to make way, in some cases 2239

Friday, April 22, 19 77 they're making way, however, Mr. Chairman, for 75 or 10 0 units so we are indeed incr easing the housing stock in this way, wher e some have to go in order to make way for more. You might say, we ll, all we'r e concerned with is numbers and quantity. The member just finishing telling us or ind icating not too long before, that there was a great need and, you know, wha t are our objectives and so forth and so on.

So we were faced with certain trade-offs and I wo uld hope that, you know, we are proceeding - I believe we are proceeding - using good judgment and locating these units where they suit the environment and where minim um of demolition of existing stock might take place. I thin k in the past, the site at Sargent and Edmonton, I believe the honourable memb er may have referred to that in the past, I don't mean in these debates but publi cly, wherein that particular site, for instance, we have had to replace two houses, two dw elling units they were rooming houses.

At any rate, there were two houses, I don't know how many dw elling units were contained within those houses, but we' re building a large structure which we hope wi ll fit the area which wi ll include a mixture of families and elderly people and the numbers, what ... about 140s uites, 140 units. So, you know, that's quite an impr ovement in the housing stock sup ply.

But I want to again assure the member that we have rejected many a site in the City of Winnipeg, or we have rejected putting up a large building because by put ting up a large buildi ng on a particular site we would have created too high a density and we're cognizant ofthat as a problem and we do not wish to have excessive densities of family accommod ation, in partic ular. We have tried to stay away from that, we have stayed away from the so-ca lled Lord Selkirk Park approach, you know, the older urban redevelopment method where you bulldoze down X number of blocks and you put up a massive housing complex.

We have taken great pains to avoid that. But, you see, the member therefore brings up another cons traint that we have and that is the constraint of blending into the communi ty environment, and that's one of the many, many constr aints that we have. So we are told on the one hand to get on with the job of putting up more social housing in the Inner City and, at the same time, I tell you that there are a lot of great obstacles in our course. I want to take this opportuni ty, too, to say that there seems to be some imp ression about that I believe that it is all the City of Winnipeg's fault.

By no means, I am not sayi ng that - in fact I think in the last couple of years there has been a lot of co-operation between the City of Winnipeg and the Province of Manitoba, the staff and the council lors, well parti cularly the councill ors who are on the Enviro nment Committee and on the Housing Sub-c ommi ttee- they are very supportive of what we are trying to do. I think we are getting good co-operation. We see eye-to-eye generally speaking and there is no problem in that area.

There is still some problem in getting certain projects through com muni ty commi ttees but that's not necessarily a problem that we have with the council, it's quite often the problem that exists in the commu nity itself, the residents who live in that area who may be opposed to social housing. At any rate, I want to do on record, Mr.

Chairm an, as indi cating right now that we are quite satisfied that the Councillor s in the City of Winnipeg, and particularly those on the Envir onment Commi ttee and on the Housing sub-com mittee as well as staff of the City of Winnipeg, are most suppo rtive of the objectives and aims of the Manitoba Housing and Renewal Corporation. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MR. AXWORTHV: Well, Mr. Chairman , the Minister is providing some assurances.

I must confess that based upon past record I treat them with a degree of skepticism because I don't think that the kind of site planning or examin ation of communi ty requirements, and certain ly consu ltation within the commu nity itself, has gone on and, that as a result, the Corporation has been as guilty as many private compani es are of sim ply securing their own objectives and not making much effort to blend those objectives with those of the people in whose community they are goin g to locate.

In fact, I would suggest that there is almost virtually no communi ty work done and that there is very little attempt ever to try to inform and instruct and bring along a communi ty to accept certain objectives for social housing , and I have had enough experience to know that the efforts made in those regards are minimal at best, either from the point of view of working in the communi ty or, certainly coming back to the questio ns we were discussing last night, of ensuring that by adding substantial numbers of people to the population which will again put increasing pressures upon already limi ted recreation areas, schools and other forms of facili ties which often is the cause and source of much of the reaction' that you simply can 't come in and say we'r e going to lay 300 new people on you which is simply going to lay over you know, sort of cram up your one remaining park.

That is why people begin to react agains t projects and there is, again, very little effort done in this area to try to blend the introdu ction of social housing projects in with the intr oduction of certain kinds of amenities. I wo uld way, Mr.

Chairman, it does go back to the point that I was trying to raise with the Minister again , it is unfortunately, I think that the housing program so far has been seen, by and large as a production of units, and has not been seen in as omewhatwider dimension of ensuring that when you build housing there are a number of things that go along with making housing impo rtant and I have used the character and quali ty of the services in that particular commu nity. 2240

Friday, April 22, 19 77 Sociol ogists, in most studies, they find out that most people choose their housing not by the nature of the unit itself but by the neighbourhood in which it's placed and if, in fact, the building or construction of just numbers of units in a place does nothing to alleviate the pressures that new people will provide then you're first bound to get reaction, and secondly you're not doing anybody much good.

I would think that the bias certainl y has been in the past, and I wou ld hope that it wo uld change, towards the idea of simply getting the numbers up and getting production targets made, which is always a problem as opp osed balan cing off the other requirements. I also suggest, Mr.

Chairman, that the problem comes down too that the techni que that has been employed so far has been prim arily one of simply assuming that the form of housing has got to be public housing or soc ial housing built and construc ted by the government as opposed to using other techni ques, both for allow ing the purchase of existing apartments and buildi ngs by tenants either through forms of co-op or non-pr ofit measures, and therefore being able to maint ain those housing units in the area.

Because I think as a numb er of studi es have shown, both your own and those done by others, that demol ition is not simply a matter of buildin gs being torn down that no longer have a use. Unf ortunately what is beginn ing to take place in Winn ipeg is that demolition or abandonment is taking place with build ings that have many years of use left in them sim ply because it is imp ossible for the pr ivate owners to maint ain the capital costs required, for reasons oftaxation, rent control, and other forms of pressures put on them.

Another concern I have which I don' t think the provinc e has answered in any way, shape or form - it hasn't begun to provide an answer, in fact seems to ignor e the problem - is the question of replacement housing for those who are forced out of their existing accom modation for reasons of the fire by-law, or other orders given by the City.

At the present tim e there is simpl y no assistance given by any level of government other than some federal assistance through RAPP funds, if you happen to be a non-pr ofit corporation, to help refurbish and upgrade older build ings, particul arly multip le dwe lling buildin gs, to ensure that they will be able to be mai ntained in the housing market. And as I've said in the House before, the Estima tes are that in any one year 800 to 1, 200 units of perfectly good housing are being taken out of the housing market sim ply for the lack of that kind of assistance.

I wo uld simp ly lik e to know at this stage what the province is prepared to do to answer a problem. You see it in the newspaper s every day where tenant s are being forced to leave reasonably good accommodation sim ply for lack of an owner being able to generate $1 0,000 cap ital to upgrade them to fit the City fire by-laws or the buildi ng code by-laws. That is, frankly Mr.

Chairman, a stupid situation that we're in; absolutely - to use the Premier's phrase of this morn ing - id iotic, that you're forcing people out of housing that, with a min imal amount of investment could be brought up to reasonably good standard. I would really like to know wha t pos ition the province intends to take on this matter. MR. EVANS: Yes, Mr. Chairman, first of all, to talk for a moment in response to the concern about consul tation with the commun ity; consu ltation with the people.

Perhaps we could do. more consu ltation but I don't think the member could object to the extent to wh ich consu ltation does take place in the Neighbourhood Impr ovement Program areas. You cannot write those off very quickl y and say, "Well, there's just a few areas." There are at least four major areas that have been approved. The Centennial Area; North Point Doug las; North St. Bon iface; and the Brooklands Area. And there are a couple of others, I believe, under consi deration .

And in that process, as the member may realize, a commun ity co-ord inator is employed and one of his jobs is to, if you like, organize or animate the people in that area and to conduc t meetings, and so on, in order to dis cuss how the com munity what should be refu.rbished, how the community should develop' type of infrastructure may be needed, what type of housing wo uld be acceptable, and so on.

I know in the north end of Brandon there is another area as well and' as we indic ated, we' re on the verge of concl udin g agreement with the City of Portage la Prairie and we hope also in another couple of commun ities in Man itoba, at least. But I know, perhaps at firsthand' that there is extensive consu ltation that goes on with the commun ity in the north end of Brandon. And the co-ord inator in that area has various subcomm ittees, etc., and they are forever conducting meetings and di scussing what should take prior ity, and so on.

So I think that there's a rather opti mum amount of consultation taking place in the neighbourhood impr ovement areas and they can not be thought of as very small ventures. These are multi- milli on dollar activities and they are going to involve hundreds upon hundreds of housing uni ts in the next few years, you know, so this is a massiv e, a massive program of rehabil itation in this city. MR. AXWORTHY: Not so massive. MR. EVANS: I beg your pardon. MR. AXWORTHY: it's not so massive. MR. EVANS: Not so massive; well how many units are we talking about?

Okay' it's extensive, if you don't want to use the word "massive." it's not smal l and it is going to take mil lions of dollars. 2241

Friday, April �2, 19 77 I'll tell you this: thatthe total project budget just for the City is $1 6.3 milli on. That's the total budget to be shared by the three levels of government butthat doesn't include the housing that is to be put in place. That's just the infrastructure portion. But, at any rate, it's fine to consu lt with the commun ities but, consu lt as you may, in some instances you'll never build one unit if you listen to everybody.

And wh ile it sounds very admir able to say, "Wel l, we're going to consult with everybody in that particu lar dis trict of the City, before we put wp anything whether it be a dup lex or a highrise," very often you're going to get objections that may be founded or they may be based on some very vested interests that those people have.

If you're overly responsive - l'm not saying you should ignor e concerns and I like to think we don't ignore any serious concerns that may exist in a particular area and, as I indic ated earlier, we do have a research staff, we do look at the si tes and we are concerned with densit ies, etc. But if you listened to everybody, you wouldn' t build anyth ing. You know, you'd end up buildi ng very little. We'd end up building a lot less than I submit we're buildin g now. And, again, the member is talking about a constr aint.

I would say again that we are not happy with the rate of depopu lation that is occurring in the inn er city of Winnip eg. At the present time, and the honourable member should know this, the rate of depopulation in the City of Winnip eg is equivalent to twice the numb er of units that can house people, twice the number of new units going in and so this is a very serious problem. In other words there is a greater di sappearance taking place than there is a creation of new housing. MR. AXWORTHY: That is what I sai d. MR. EVANS: Okay. And so we are trying to reverse that trend.

But att hesame time the honourable member is saying we should be more consu ltative wi th the commun ities than we are' etc., and I just say if we spend more time in consu ltation - and you know I am not knocking it - and if we spend more time looking at lovely old houses that you think should stay, what we are doing is not being able to meet the objective of trying to reverse this rate of depopulation that is occurring in the City of Winnip eg. You know you can't have it both ways but I am hoping, I believe we are using our best judgment in all of these ins tances.

We are not perfect; we don' t alw ays make the absolute optimum decision, I suppose.

But in some people's opini ons, at least, and I submit that a lot of this is a matter of judgment and many of these decisions may be very, very subjective and there is no absolute right answer as to wher e you should locate a particular set of buildi ngs or a high rise, there is no absolute answer as to whether or not a particular older home should be demolished and a highrise, for instance, take its place. lt is not black and wh ite and it is not a simpli stic type of decision that has to be made so we are exercisi ng, I wo uld subm it, our best judgment in all of this.

On the matter of what about the existing buildi ngs that there is so much concern about at the present time, and indeed I think there is something of a housing crisis with regard to particularly these existing smaller walk-up type apartment build ings, some of which are rather old. I wou ld subm it to you that not all of them are easily repairable, not all of them. I think you can go to CMHC and get an opinion if you wish and in some of them you wo uldn't put a ni ckel in them because they are over the hill . Some of them are over the hill and it would be foolish to attempt to repair them.

On the other hand if these buildi ngs are not over the hill, if they are build ings that are at all salvagable, at all looking as though they had some potential for rehabilitation and repair, then I wou ld submit that there is some merit si nce the City of Winnip eg does not seem to wish to proceed in this area and si nce the priv ate sector is not responding for wh atever reason, that there is some merit for the Provincial Government through MH RC to look at acquir ing existing buildi ngs and repair them, renovate them, upgrade them, and in effect salvage existing stock and perhaps overcome something of a housing crisis that has been described by some people.

I might add that the City of Toronto is very active in this area. The Toronto Housing Authority, I understand, is very active in buying older buildi ngs and renovating them, rehabil itating them with the existing tenants remaining. I think they do it under under

Section 15 ofthe NH A. I think there is a lot of merit in pursuing this course here. Therefore I can advise the honourable member that we are looking at the questions of acquir ing existing properties through a non-pr ofit housing corporation approach to deal with this housing crisis. I would say that we are actively looking at this as a new thrust by the corporation because thus far we haven't really been in the busine ss of acquiring existing buildin gs, renovating them and then putting them back on the market.

We have been essentiall y involved in social housing which means that we are dealing with the very lowest income groups. Many of the people who live in these existing buildi ngs don't qualify under NHA for the public housing or the social housing, but through the non-pr ofit corporation approach we can have a mix and this is fine. I can assure the member that we will be looking at this and I am hoping that in a couple of weeks' time we will be able to give you a defin itive answer, in two or three weeks' time give you a defin itive answer as to how we may be proceeding. I can't tell you at the present time.

I can just tell you we are most actively looking at the matter and in fact a meeting was held this morning with CMHC on the matter. There is some reluctance, I believe, on the part of the federal corporation to financ e acquisition of build in gs because of the nature of the exercise. The other thing, of course, the old argument is' "W ell, you are not adding to the stock so let's put our 2242

Friday, April 22, 19 77 money to a net addition of housing supply. Let's not waste our money on just doing something that you wo uld have thought the pr ivate market or the private sector wo uld look after." Just by way of example of a bit of a dil emma, you are looking at this Mansfield Court, as it is referred to, at 626 El lice. There are 29 units there and, as you know, the City Health Department has been in volved and it is condem ned and so on.

And CMHC, I understand, has advised us that in their opinion it wou ld require a quarter of a mil lion dol lars to bring that building up to standard and that is an awfu l lot of money. And one asks then, "Is that a sound in vestment, or in that case is it better that ultimately that building is demol ished and a new one appear in its place?

Something that is brand new, that is sound, that meets all the safety, health, fire requirements." I suppose in acquisition of these buildi ngs' too, there is this danger thatthe Federal Government, and I guess ourselves as a Provincial Government, through MHRC are putting ourselves in the position of becoming something of slum landlor ds in buying all these buildi ngs because you know renovation does take time and it may take many mont hs in some cases. And whether you can undertake certain renovations that are required with the people in them at the same time also remains to be seen. it is not simpl e.

And then when you ask the people to leave in order to renovate, even though they may come back, you know you are causing di slocation, di sruption, and all the consternation that mi ght come. lt is not a simple matter and I would shudder to think if an apartment burned to the ground after we as a corporation, having just acquired it, and for some reason it burned and then im mediately we are the bad guys even though we just acquired it. it's our property; you know, why don' t you do something about it? Even though we are wo rking on it' I can just see the headlines in the papers now.

So there is an understandable reluctance by CMHC to financ e us into the acquisition of these types of buildi ngs, the placarded buildin gs. Having said that, I think in principle there is somethin g to be said for acquir ing existing structures and renovating them and making them more livable so that they aren't placarded in the future. Maybe some of them are not over the hill as I said and can be therefore brought up to standard and suitable.

On the other matter of emergency housing, I think the member also raised the question of emergency housing for people who are burned out in a fire and have no place to go and so on. We are again actually looking at this matter and I am hoping with in ten days, two weeks, to be able to annou nce a program wher eby we may be able to offer some accommodation for people in this category. But our supply is lim ited and I don't know whether all of a sudden we can become the social welfare agency for the City of Winn ipeg in this respect.

But we are looking at the question of supplying emergency-type housing that wou ld be avai lable for famil ies, who, for wh atever reason, are forced out of their existing premises and this wo uld be for a short-term type of occupancy. And again, hopefully, we will be able to help some people in this respect. -(I nterjection)- Okay. That's right. Mr.

Chairman, the other problem, of course, is wh ile we are building large amounts of social housing we still have at the present time 1, 500 fam il ies who are patiently and maybe impatiently waiting on the list to go into a house or a dupl ex or an apartment suite, so wh ile it may be that certain persons are unfortunately burned out or caused to be removed from their apartments or houses because of health problems or any other problem, as envisaged by the officials, at the same time these people also feel they have demands on the corporation because they expect to be housed in social accommodation.

Most of them have been waiti ng a year. Some of them have been wait ing over a year. Some have been wa iting two years or more, so that is a problem. But, at any rate, we are looking at a program wher eby we may be ableto supply some emergency housing, and hopefully we can resolve this in the near future. MR. AXWORTHY: Mr. Chairman, I am delighted to hearth at the Min ister is going to do something about emergency housing needs.

Our group have been asking for it for the last four years and it's ni ce to see that eventually some things happen to respond to those kinds of importunin gs' not just from ourselves, but from others. But, I think that again, it still raises some questions about the kind of program that is being introduced into the Inn er City, it still stri kes me that it has a fair degree of a ramshackle approach to it.

There are bits and pi eces that the Min ister keeps menti oning that are being contemplated or that will be annou nced. lt doesn't seem to be hanging together as any kind of cohesive strategy both in identi fying housing needs and identifying the best means of solving them. I must confess to having a certain amount of reaction to some of the comments made by the Min ister, because that demons trates to me a certain, what I wo uld suggest is a lack of appreciation of some of the cond itions in portions of the Inner City.

When he talked about the problem in the area being one of depopulation, I don' t if anyone is too worried about the depopu lation. Wha t they're much more concerned about is the destruction of the physical environment in large part, and that's di fferent from depopulation.

One of the reasons why you're getting depopu lation, is because what's taking place in this city is not just the deterioration of housing, it's also the- I guess the proper word is the "dis saration," or the tearing out its schools and its churches and its commun ity fa cil ities; and that the most domin ant cond ition of the Inn er City is that compar ed to other parts of Greater Winn ipeg is the large di sparity between the access to dif ferent kinds of commu nity services, schools and churches and recreation 2243

Friday, April 22, 1977 areas, that the proportion of land avai lable for recreation is about five to one between say, suburban areas and the In ner City of Winn ipeg. The sc hools themselves are in serious cond ition and there is not anyth ing, as we dis cussed last ni ght, being planned to cope with that situatio n.

So, in large part, what the Min ister is talking about may be building a large numb er of housing units and putting people in them, but having no opportunity for those people to enjoy the kind of amenities that everyone else does, and therefore certainl y wo uld become very negative and very unhappy and dis satisfied with that imm ediately, because they wo uldn't have that enjoyment.

The fact that a numb er of kids have to be bussed around to In ner City schools right now is a very clear ind ication of the problems that are existing in that area ; that you can't build housing without worr ying about what kind of soci al, recreational, educational services and commercial services surrounding it; access to a grocery store and a dry cleaning shop, places lik e that.

Yet the downtown Inn er City area is being taken over by large office build ings , commercial structures and highrise apartments, wi th the elimi nation of those kin ds of smaller scale service establishments, and as a result it ceases to become a commun ity that is an attractive place to live in. So I'd say that is part and parcel of the problem, and I haven't yet heard of any way of dealing with it.

The neighbourhood impr ovement projects, I'd inf orm the Min ister, are a very small part of the answer to it, because he may be talking about four projects, but if you take in the actual geographical area they cover, they cover a very smal l proportion of the Inn er City. And I wou ld suggest to him that the latest figures by the City of Winn ipeg demonstrate that close to 20,000 housing units are now over 60 or 70 years old in the City of Winnip eg, and that the number of units that are being repaired or replaced through the Neig hbourhood Impr ovement Projects may amount to three or four hundred.

At the same time those other 20,000 are reaching a threshold of age and deterioration wher e something very serious has to be done. Now, coming to the solution of the non-profit housing corporation, wh ich is some thing I guess I've bleated about for more years than I'd care to remember at the present stage, my concern wo uld be, whose non -profit is it? Is it going to be a Provi ncial Government non-pr ofit corporation, an adjunct to MH RC? Would it be a ci ty model, as took place in the City of Toronto, or Edmo nton or Ottawa or Vancouver, wher e they had city sponsored non-pr ofit housing corporations?

Or will it be a communit y-type non-pr ofit corporation where there'd be a join t enterprise between them, where the corporation would really be operated by a selection of people in the In ner City itself, so they will have their own nonpr ofit housing corporation to help solve their own housing problems? In other words, Mr. Chairman, there are several models that they take, and I would suggest that depending upon the ki nd of corporation that may be set up wil l have an aw ful lotto do with the degree to wh ich it is successful in arresting declin e.

I wo uld suggest the least successful of those would be one which wou ld be a Provincial Government non-profit housing corporation. Certainl y my choice wo uld be one in wh ich the province wo uld have a role, but it would be very much spon sored and to a degree managed by those who in fact reside in the In ner City and therefore feel that they have some control over wha t's taking place in the area, rather than simply having another corporation set up by people who they see as outsiders coming in to do it for them.

So before the Minis ter makes up his mi nd finally on this new corporation, this new housing agency , I think some serious thought has to go into it, as to the terms of reference that it works under and the kinds of methods that it wi ll employ, and who, in fact the corporation will belong to. I think that there is a certain advantage to making it a community chosen corporation, as opposed to a totally government type corporation . I wo uld suggest though one step further, Mr.

Chairman, and that is that even though the setting up of a new non -profit corporation wil l certainl y be welc omed, it itself will not necessarily, be the total answer to the question . And the one issue that the Min ister has not responded to is the degree to wh ich there will be assistance for pri vate owners of properties in the Inner City to retain and upgrade their own properties. The Min ister said that he can tell me of buildi ngs that would take a quarter of a million dolla rs to repair.

Well, I could take the Min ister, if he had five min utes, across the street, show him an apartment block that has 27 units in it. lt is threatened to be closed down for lack of $1 0,000 capital to bring it up to standards sim ply because the owner is a person who lives in the building, takes a smal l inc ome off it - after he got an order for upgrading under the fire by-laws, he went to the bank - priv ate financial institutions do not lend in these areas - so simply for a matter of $10, 000 capital, wh ich if you ration it out per unit, amounts to a very very small sum, you can mai ntain an apartment block for another 20 years' use.

I wo uld suggest that there is far more of that kind of situation than the one that you mentioned, and that would be wr ong simply to assume that the only answer to the problem is to have a public owner ship answer to it; that it is as much an answer to the problem to provide some some assistance to those who presently own properties. I wo uld suggest that every singl e study that I have seen on In ner Cities in North America demonstr ates that one of the prim ary in gredients for neighbo urhood commun ity stab il ity and to offset deterioration is the transfer of owner ship int o pr ivate hands.

I'm not saying that for ideological reasons. I'm simply saying that happens to be a fact, that you can trace the degree of declin e 2244

Friday, April 22, 1977 accord ing to the degree to which there is absentee owner ship, or institutional ownersh ip. You can trace the upgrading of a neighborhood accord ing to the degree to wh ich there tends to be a greater concern by private owner ship.

I wou ld want to suggest to the Min ister that not only should we be talking about setting up a new housing company, but that perhaps one of the jobs of that housing company would be to work out means - and I would be glad to suggest several to the Min ister- by wh ich they wo uld act as the vehicle or the medi um for transferring owner ship of housing in the Inner City to the residents of the In ner City, to take it out of absentee hands and transfer into the hands of those who actually own it; not having it government owned, but in fact be owned by the people who live in the area and therefore will take a certain stake and a certain comm itment to that property.

I wo uld think that one of the major strategies that should be employed is the question of the transference of owner ship from absentee hands into resi dent hands and not necessarily have it pass to another absentee owner wh ich happens to be the government. MR. EVANS: Mr. Chairman, on the matter of the loans or financing land lords of existi ng build in gs -I think that was one of the items that the member raised -I don't know, I'm rather reluctantto lend money. In some cases these are slum landlords - and you say only 15 or 10 thousand is required.

I wo uld submit that for some of these buildi ngs that we're lo oking at it requires an awful lot more money than that. What's happened to the priv ate market? What's happened to the priv ate enterprise? What's happened to the private sector? But the point is, Mr. Chairman, that we are traditionally not a banker. We are not a financier necessarily, at least not on a large sca le. We have a rural mortgage lending pr ogram, but this is done join tly with the credit unions.

We, as the honourable member knows full wel l, obtain the bulk of our fund ing from Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation and I wou ld trust that the honourable member is not suggesting that we try to replace CMHC and start lending money to land lords and small build ings because that is the panacea to upgrade and repair these older apartments that are priv ately owned. I don't think it is, because in lend ing money, we have to get a rate of return.

We have to charge an interest rate, and even if it was a preferred interest rate, I submit that that isn't going to be the answer. lt is far more complic ated than that; I think it requi res a lot of money. As I said, this Mansfield Court, it was estimated by CMHC that you need a quarter of a mil lion dol lars, not 20 or $30,000 as some people are talking about, in order to bring it up to all the necessary standards. So, I wou ld be very reluctant to get into that. In the question of non-pr ofit organizations, as the honourable member knows also, probably better than I, that what we're talking about is

Section 15 .1 of the National Housing Act, wh ich exists, and there's nothing under God's sun and stars from preventing anybody right now, any commun ity group, any group of ind ivid uals, any service club from going to CMHC and becoming incorporated as a non-profit organization. In fact we were talkin g about thi s last ni ght with regard to some smaller commun ities, such as Woodlands , wher e they are hoping to build a senior citizens' home, and they're going to use this

section . They've gone dir ectly to CMHC. We're giving them some techn ical assistance. We're giving them any advice we can, and we will help them, but there are provisions under the National Housing Act for the establishment of non-pr ofit organizations for the funding of them a 10 0 percent loan, with 10 percent forgiveness, and there are other features. There's nothing now preventing this from happening.

The legislation's in place and any commun ity group can go to CMHC and get themselves organized as a non-profit organization . it's not that we are remiss somehow or other in not seeing that these priv ate groups are not being organiz ed in to non-pr ofit corporations. But I can tell the member this, that we already have in existence a Manitoba Non-Profit Housing Corporation, which is a subsidiar y of Manitoba Housing Renewal Corporation. lt has existed for a couple of years now and we are now, as I in dicated, looking at the activation of it to get into this busi ness of renovating existing structures.

But I want to say this, that his poi nt of involving the commun ity and involving as much as possible the tenants' particip ation is well taken. Again, perhaps we can look at the model in the City of Toronto, wher e the City of Toronto housing authority, not the Government of Ontario, but the City of Toronto housing authority goes about with its non-profit organ ization approach and buy s the build ings, renovates them and then spins off the management to whatever group. I wou ld like to think that we may be able to do the same thing. We haven't done this yet, so we'r e talking about some new territory here.

But if we want to get on with the job of dealing wi th wha t I consider to be a crisis in housing in Winn ipeg, the way to get on with it quickly is to do it with our own resources. our own staff But having got on with it, I would like to think that we can then achieve, hopefully, this tenant involvement, citizens' involvement, by transferring the management to tenant groups, or perhaps to a service organization or wh atever; a spin- off in effect of this mana gement.

But I simply repeat what I said earlier, and that is that there's nothing now preventing organizations from going di rectly to CMHC and doing this. it's not our act. it's not our legislation. We're talkin g about some federal legislation that we are wa nting to take advantage of now,

Section 15 .1, and there's nothing at all preventing these organ izations from doing this. As a matter of fact we have had some dis cussions, and I think the staff have had extensive dis cuss ions with the city about the City of Winn ipeg itself forming a non- 2245

Friday, April 22, 1977 profit housing corporation and doing the same th ing. One advantage of it too is, if you're a non-profit organization, if you have that approach, you're eligible for RRAP Grants, Residential Rehabil itation Housing Assistance Program Grants. But in order to get this for certain build ings, I believe you have to meet certain standards, and these standards may require a lot more money than some people are ta lkin g about, that is for the renovation and rehabil itation of exis ting structures.

I understand that legis lation already exists for the formation and acquisition by co-operatives of existi ng housing, which wo uld provide a form of commun ity owner ship. I might add on that note, Mr.

Chairman, that the government, the Manitoba Housing Corporation has a program to sti mulate co operative development, includ ing cont inui ng co-op development, by making land avai lable to these co-ops and by providi ng some sort of interim lendin g money which is very essential. lt may be smal l, but it's extremely essential to get the co-operative going in the first place, and at the moment we have about four or five continu ing co-ops in the City of Win nip eg. I like to think that there's been a great incr ease in this activity that wasn't here a couple of years ago, and let's hope that more can occur.

But I state right now, that if we want to move quickly, effectively, in this crisis area then we have to do it through -1 wou ld subm it- a subsidiar y of our Manitoba Housing Renewal Corpora tion, mainly a Manitoba non-pr ofit housing corporation. But again, I think we can maybe achieve the best of both worlds by getting on with the job, using this vehicle, but then sp inn ing off the management to service organizations and commun ity groups and tenants, so that you do arrive at this involvement by the people in the continued management and maint enance of that property. MR. AXWORTHY: Mr.

Chairman , I wou ld like to take serious issue wi th the Min ister's statement that it is already possible to set up a non-pr ofit corporation. lt is not possible under the present economic cir cumstances to try to purchase land in this In ner City of Winn ipeg. The legislation has been there and I know all the cond itions that have been involved in trying to set several up.

The fact of the matter is when it comes down to a communit y sponsor ed non-pr ofit corporation relying solely upon its own resources to try to build in the In ner City, it can't because it can not acquire the land . ln fact, one major non-profit corporation has just gone broke in the City, or has closed down, simpl y because it was not able to acquire the financing for the land.

Unli ke other provinces wh ich do provide write down costs on land, the Provinc e of Manitoba does not provide it and that's why I am sim ply saying , that if you're really trying to get an extension of housing activity that is not solely and comp letely domina ted or controlled by MHRC or its subsid iaries, then you have to start examinin g how you would make better use of your capital to provide induc ements or in centives for a variety of private, whe ther they be profit making or non-pr ofit making corporations, to get into the busi ness.

Right now, it is imp ossible for commun ity sponsor ed non-pr ofits to operate in the City of Winn ipeg because they sim ply can't carry the tariff on land. Until you get that down, then you're simply in trouble and I suggest that you take a look at some of the things going on in Britis h Columbia, where land is suppl ied by the province to non-pr ofits and Co ops at a write down cost, or their lease-back arrangement; in the Province of Alberta where there is a form of grant whi ch writes down the interest rate; in the Provin ce of Ont ario, wher e there is a simi lar of loan-grant system to provide land.

Now, when the Min ister says it is imp ossible I sim ply suggest to him that it is not imp oss ible, other provinc es are doin g it. My major criticism is that the range of in novation that we are prepared to operate in is very limi ted to what can government do, as oppo sed to what can government do to help other groups to also get into the busine ss. I think that is a fact of life, so the Min ister is dead wron g. lt is not possible to get community non-profits.

The ones that have been attempted aren't able to make it for that reason alone because they receive absolutely no assistance from either the Province of Man itoba or the City of Winn ipeg in being able to get areas of land , or be able to pay the price of existing properties under the present mortgage arrangements. If he wants, I can give him documented case studies on several that have been tried in this City and have failed on that account alone.

So, if you want the commun ity non-pr ofits or Co-ops to get into the busi ness, then you had better start doing something to help them acquire those properties by giving them a little bit of front-end assistance in the purchase of it, otherwise, it is simpl y not going to work and I think that the Min ister should know that. But going beyond that, Mr. Speaker, I also feel that a serious mistake is being made in terms of the reluctance to provide a certain degree of assistance for lending purposes to priv ate owners of downtown properties to upgrade their accommoda tions.

If you were going to get into the business of having to buy every singl e walk-up apartment that comes 4 on the market, then you're going to be spendi ng a big junk of public capital as oppo sed to simpl y having to put smal ler portions of capital out for loans for impr ovements and upgradi ng. I think that that simply is an uneconomic al and somewhat foolish way of approach ing it. You need several appr oaches to it and to avoid or ignore the lending appr oach wou ld be one, and again, I think that there are several techni ques that wo uld be avai lable.

The government in the past has shown no reluctance to lend large amounts of money for other purposes in this province. lt is a lend ing institution of a variety of kinds - the Manitoba 2246

Friday, April 22, 1977 Development Fund wh ich the Min ister knows something about is a lending ins titution - I wo uld suggest that the avai labil ity of a couple of milli on dol lars worth of capital per year to help and buy safety equipment; for example, smoke detectors and other forms of installations, would be able to mai ntain a large amount of these properties in the market. If they are not made available, then you're going to have to buy those properties back at a much greater cost or build public housing units at ten times the cost, or close to ten times the cost.

So I think that that is a serious mis take in this approach to In ner City housing that you are making. Certain ly, Mr.

Chair man , I think that the question of the existence of a new housing corporation should provide us with an opportunity, not simpl y to deal with the conventional ki nds of things, if there is any reason in part for the failure of the private housing mar ket in the Inner City of Winn ipeg, it is because so many other pressures have been put on it and I think we have stated several in this House before' that there is in creasing pressure from the City on terms of the upgrading bylaws, there is property taxations, there is 20 percent incr eases in hydro costs, there is the rent control program.

All these sim ply mean - when the Min ister asks what's gone wrong with the private market, I can tell him that there is al most virtually no cash flow com ing in to small owner s any more that's wha t has gone wrong with it.

So, simply, if you are trying to mai ntain them in the busine ss - and they are not all slum landl ords, many of them provide very good, decent housing and you don't have to lend to slum land lords, you can make a choic e and if the Min ister had been listening, I suggested that the preference for that kind of capit al should go to people who are owner-occu pi ers as opp osed to absentee owner s to keep these properties in busine ss. Those who have a certain stake and commit ment in the commun ities in wh ich their pr operties reside.

You can set certain cond itions by whic h funds are given and the interest rates can also be controlled. So I think there are a number of ways of approaching it and I just wish, Mr. Chairman, that we had a somewhat more detai led position on this thing rather than si mply tryi ng to draw it and drag it out bit by pi ece. I think the prob lem of Inner City housing is too serious to do in a kind of ad hoc way. lt has to be done in a very co-ord inated, comprehensive way where all the pieces fit together and compl ement one another and are not in some cases wo rking at cross-pu rposes. MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Mi nis ter. MR. EVANS: Well, I don't know. l fail to followt he honourable member when he keeps on insisting that one solution is to lend to existing owners because, at best, if you're talking about a loan, at best you're talking about maybe, if we did pur sue this, we mi ght give them a one or two point s preference but I don't know whether that is sign ificant enough to make the di fference and I really ... MR.

AXWORTHY: Is the Min ister aware, that for many private owners of apartments blocks in the Inn er City of Winnip eg, it is imp ossible to get any kind of loan from any pri vate financial in stituti on? There is no lending. In terest rate or not, it is im poss ible to get those loans. Is he aware of that fact? MR. EVANS: Yes. I see. Well, I understand if that is the case, it is because the lending value is not there and a lot of these so-cal led owners that you refer to are mortgaged to the hilt.

They'vegotfirst, second, third mortgages and they just don' t have the equity to get any more lending for repairs and that is the fact of the matter. Part of the phenomenon that you're descri bing is a result of greed and speculation by a lot of so-ca lled upright citizens in this province who are trying to make fast bucks off of a lot of poor people, and it's the result of that phenomenon that's at wo rk.

People are too bloody greedy and they're mortgaged to the hilt and now they can't borrow money to renovate and all of a sudden the Manitoba Government is supposed to come on lik e a knight in shin ing armour and rescue some of these people. The member might say, wel l the more imp ortant thing is the housing accommodation.

In deed, it is the most impor tant but at the same tim e this is a pretty big problem and there is a pretty big area out there of housing reconstruction and housing building to be done and we'r e strai ning right now at the seams, more or less, the staff is, and we'r e going all out doing wha tever we can to impr ove housing cond itions in Manitoba in many many ways. But, you know, we can look at that. I'm not closing the door and I'm not saying that there may be categories, there may be areas, so let's look at that.

But I really get the impr ession that the member is over-simpl ifying some of these matters and also exaggerating in some instances. I think the Member for Fort Rouge is exaggerating when he says there are many many non-pr ofit groups who have come to the Government of Mani toba for assistance because we know of none, except one, the Win nipeg Housing Alliance, and that was we ll down the line, I understand, before they approached MHRC. At that point, when they di d come to us, we di d agree to give them some assistance. We offered to write down the carrying costs on the land.

But there haven't been many non -pr ofit or would -be non -pr ofit groups come to us for help. (Interjection)- You said several, well who? Who are they? I don't know who they are, I don't know. I'm asking the staff, who has come to us for help? So don't sit there and say that there are many many groups who have come to us for help and been turned down. Maybe there are many groups in existence, I don't know, because this is under federal legislation' but we do have a program to help conti nuing Co-ops and Winn ipeg Housing All iance is the one organ ization that came to us - came to 2247

us rather'late in the game - and we did offer to help them. I say now, publi cly; if there are groups that want to form non-pr ofit organizations, we wo uld be prepared to help them get started.Wheh you say that the question of land, as I understand it; you don' t have to own the land. If you have an option on the land , that's sufficient for CMHC purposes. You can get 10 0 percent fi nanci ng. Well, you can shake your head. I just say that in sqme instances, Mr. Chair man, the member is exaggerating.

I must say this, that I find the staff 'of the Man itoba Housing and Renewal Corpora tion to be most responsive, to be most positive and very concerned with fulfilling a mandate at impr oving housing in this Ci ty and in this province and !jus t don't believe that there have been many. many non-pr ofit groups com ing to us and being turned away . I have no dir ect knowle dge ofit and I don't think our senior staff has any dir ect knowledge of it. MR. AXWORTHY: Well, Mr. Chairman, sometimes it gets to be a q uestibn of; I guess, exaggeration is in the eye of the beholder.

I di d not say many many many I said several. I also suggested that one of the reasons is because there has not been any real public proclamation probably until now thatthe MHR C is prepared to provide that kind of assistance to di fferent non-profits. But, unlik e in the Province of Ontario wher e they annou nced a specific poli cy, wh ich wou ld provide not only techn ical assistance but also certain funds for second mortgaging on land so that the lending value that's presently available under

Section 15 .1 wh ich CMHC say will only go up to a certain li mit and when you're dealing with high cost land , oftenti mes the cost per units are above that and that they take a second mortgage on it and ran ge above it and help write down the cost.

Now there are again ways of doing it but the Provi ncial Government has never said so; it has never ind icated, never provided that offer to anybody. lt may be prepared to negotiate in it but I think that the impor tance of stating in a public way certain polic y positions so that groups will un derstand wha t's going on and we know that that kind of resource is available so that when they meet with CMHC - and CMHC by the way doesn't know that that is oftenti mes available either, because when they talked about polic y setting in the province' they are assuming thatit is going to be funded solely from thei r funds and that there will not be a provincial contribution of any kind right on top of it.

So someone is not communic ating wi th someone else and I would say that if the Mi nister is prepared to offer thatassistance, great. But then let's make sure that people know about it because it has been a very wel l-kept secret up to this point in ti me. MR. EVANS: Well, you know, M( Chairman , I think maybe perhaps part of the problem is that the corporation is in deed trying to do many many things and, you know, given the resources that we have, the staff, our budget, etc., I think their record is most commendable. But' you know, there is a limi t and we are not composed of supermen.

But I ag ree with the honourable member in di sseminati ng .information. I am very concerned about getting knowledge, getting information to the public on wha t programs are available and, as a matter of fact, only recently I asked the staff to come up with an informational pam phlet to tell the world what's available because there are a lot of programs, even our rural mortgage lending program - I am sure that there are many farmers in Man itoba that could take advantage of this program but don't know about it.

Now, mi nd you, we're wor king with the credit unions, and all the credit unions are supposed to have the pamphlets but I don't know ... there hasn't been very many takers but there may be some other reason for that. But I share that concern with the honourable member and that is that perhaps we should be doing a better job of advising the public what is available for them to take advantage of. I am not suggesting we don't do this; we do have pamph lets; we do have material; we do respond to many phone calls and letters, etc. However that can be noted. I wo uld just want to make this point, Mr.

Chairman, and that is that when the Manitoba non-profit Housing Corporation was set up, it was set up more or less to be the role of a co-ord inator and aetas a catalyst and so on, and it can sti ll fulfi l! that role. We are prepared, therefore, through that organization to act as the co-o rdinator and advising agency, technic al consu ltant agency and in deed and perhaps in a sense a financing agency as we are now doing with the Continu ing . Co-ops, so that we have four or five Conti nuing Co-ops now in existence.

Sure they are funded under NHA provisions and so on, but I wou Id submit if itwasn 't for this in itial capital assistance we provided and assist ing them with getting land, etc., that these wou ldn't" even be in existence. There is no reason why we can not, you know, fulfil! that type of a role for non-pr ofit groups, but I just repeat, to my knowledg e, there has only been the one and they came pretty late in the game. But having said that, I wou ld agree.

I am a great proponent of advising the commu nity, advising the public of what programs are available so that all can take advantage of those programs - whether they be in housing or in wha tever area, education or health or wh atever - Some more busi ness. MR. AXWORTHY: Mr . Chairman , just a fi nal word on that. I hope then that the Min ister will take serious advisement of extending the Repair and Rehabil itation Program through provincial resources.

I think that if he is looking for a solution, it's not the only solution; but a solution, that's when he wbu ld get a far greater degree of mi leage out of this capital than some of the other programs he's presently in. 1 just have one further question because some other members may want to get into this before we 2248

Friday. April 22, 19 77 rise. lt'w as just simply, I have received a vast amount of correspondence from some one who is probably we ll known to official s of Man itoba Housing and is named Ronald Moses in Thompson , Man itoba concern ing his problem which I gather has now gone to the Ombuds man and has now gone to a number of sources, it has now come to me and I would - I know the rules ofthe House about tabling it - I wo uld be pleased to table this because it wou ld sure be ni ce to get it out of my file wh ich now is about three feet deep. I gather Mr.

Moses believes that his rights are being infringed upon and that he has not been compen sated properly by the Corporation for the fact that the Corporation moved in people next door who not only were not ni ce neighbors but also destroyed his house and I am wondering if, at this point in time, the Min ister might be prepared to suggest how the Corporation intends to deal with this matter which is now becoming certainly of great im portance to Mr . Moses but does seem to have some question of rights involved in it. MR. EVANS: Yes. Mr.

Chairman, I did not know of this matter until the honourable member just raised it now but staff are pleased to advise me and I am happy to transmit the knowledge to the member, to the committee, and that is the gentleman who was compla ining - Mr. Moses? -t hisw as a dup lex unit Mr. Moses lived on one side and MHRC apparently owned the other half of the duplex. Well, we have now sold the other half to Mr. Moses so I th ink the problem is resolved. I don't know when it was sold - it was about six months ago- so Mr. Moses owns both halves of the house and he will do with them as he will.

So I hope that that problem has now been resolved. MR. AXWORTHY: Mr. Chair man , that ... MR. EVANS: I'm sorry. The title was only transferred a month and a half ago. Is that right? About January the title was transferred. MR. AXWORTHY: I believe though that Mr. Moses still feels though that some compensation is required to offset the costs he incu rred when his wal ls were destroyed previously and that those haven't yet been paid. I am wo ndering if the Corporation is prepared to satisfy his concerns in these respects. MR. EVANS: Well, again, I am not fam iliarwi th this problem, Mr.

Chairman, I have just learned of it now but the staff advise me that he either has been or will be compen sated: Maybe he will not be satisfied with compensation to the degree we may be satisfied with it but apparently there is some possibil ity of compensa tion . MR. AXWORTHY: Just to clarif y that so I can maybe have you or I'll write him back and say , you know, has there been an offer of compen sation or are you contemplating making that offer to Mr. Moses. That wou ld be the question .

Has an offer already been made that he doesn't feel adequate or is it simply that an offer hasn't yet been made and that he just doesn't know what might be acceptable or not. MR. EVANS: I'm afraid, Mr. Chairman, I can't give the honourable member any more detail. The staff will have to check the files. As you can appr eciate, it is the detail. I understand we are not going to charge Mr. Moses for sawing a particu lar door in half. Apparently, it's in the Ombud sman's Report but we will look into it and try to resolve this. I'm sorry I can't give you any more information. MR. AXWORTHY: Mr.

Chairman, will the Min ister or his staff get in touch with me then, when the thing is clarified and let me know. Thank you, Mr . Chairman . MR. CHAI RMAN: Resolution 77(a) . The Honourable Member for Sturgeon Creek. MR. J. FRANK JOH NSTON: Mr . Chairman , last ni ght when we were dis cussing the properties owned by the MHR C, the Min ister mentio ned that by 1981, I believe, around 1, 800 acres would be avai lable to come on stream for housing. Just looking at the calculations I have here, I am looking at about approximately a little less than that.

I believe that I am looking at less than that because of the ... . The FortGarr y property that was mentioned, looking at the map, shows a very smal l percentage of the Fort Garry property that is with in the limi t of the urban exp ansion. And there is some on the corner here, I believe at the highway and Waverly ... your property is mostly on the other side of the highway. What is that percentage of that little corner you have there or how many acres is that little corner that is avai lable with in the limi t of urban expansion on that large Fort Garry block of property? MR. EVANS: Mr.

Chairman , is the honourable member referring to a portion of the 1 ,263 acres that we referred to last night in the Fort Garry area? MR. F. JO HNSTO N: Yes. MR. EVANS: Well, the staff advised me - I'm not sure of that particula r smal l

section that the member refers to, Mr. Chairman - but we don't believe that any of it is in the city plan at the present time. it's a matter of negotiating with the City of Winnip eg. I'm not dir ectly famili arwith that particular desc ription that the member referred to. MR. F. JOHNSTON: There's no sense in us all look ing at a bunch of dif ferent things. When we come down here, the dotted line is the lin e showing the property with in the city. (I have penned it in.) This is your property here. That appears to me to be inside the expansion area.

I am just wo ndering what size that particular corner is. lt looks to be about a third. MR. EVANS: This is not the MHR C only held property. There is a portion out there which is both city and provincially -owned , jointly. And that's part of that. 2249

Friday, April 22, 1977 MR. F. JOHNSTON: Is your 1, 250 acres in Fort Garry over and above the joint ly owned? MR. EVANS: Yes. The jointly owned is 520 acres, Mr . Chai rman and that's in add ition to the 1 ,263. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Well, Mr. Chairman, in other word s the join tly owned is wi thin the bounds of the limi t of urban expansion and you r 1, 250 acres is outside it.

I can see where you can come on stream with the city on that particu lar one fairly quickly but I would have my doubts at the length of time that it's going to take to get that other Fort Garry property into line because you're sitting consider ably on the other side of the highway there and there is a considerable amount of vacant lands in between the highw ays and Wilk es Avenue that sti ll has to be developed. MR. EVANS: Mr.

Chairman , I can advise the honourable member that some of the properties that we are now developing in the Lord Selkir k commun ity area in northwest Winn ipeg, that we di scussed last ni ght and earlier, that was outside of the city's development plan too. But through negotiations and agreement, it was brought in. So we are now dev eloping 262 acres in that Lord Selkir k commun ity area as well as 59 acres in theAssin iboine commun ity area for a total of 321 . But that 262, as I am advised, was not in the plans.

So it doesn't mean that because the line has not been drawn around it, that it's impossible to have it br ought on stream. I wou ld like to also reiterate what I said last night or the day before, and that is, the 1976-1978 plan, whil e it incl udes the development of 321 acres that I just referred to, over and above that, we have plans to develop another 1 ,539 acres in the period of 1978 to 1981 . And that will in clude 20 acres in Transcona, 59 acres in West Ki ldonan , 197 acres in south St. Bon iface, and the 1 ,263 acres in the Fort Garry area, giving us a total, as I sai d, of 1 ,539.

Now that is the plan and , agreed, a lot of this may not be in the present City of Winn ipeg development area but we are hoping through negotiation and agreement that this will be possible. MR. F. JOHNSTON: In your report, Mr. Chairman, you mentioned last night - 1 hope I can find it again - that you were leasing land back to farmers and having inc ome on it. On Page 34, about halfway down the page, there is an item here that says, "land at cost leased." At $530,787 is that the income you are receiving from leased land? I don't say it's all farmland , but does that take in the farmland you are leasing? MR.

EVANS: The income received is netted against costs. This land at cost leased, this is the land leased to co-operatives and con dominium Pioneer Apartments is includ ed in there. But at any rate, that also incl udes land leased to co-op housing. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr. Chairman, I was hoping I had the answer to the amount of money that you did receive from leasing the farmland back from farmers but I haven't so I have to ask it. MR. EVANS: No, it is not shown here and I can't give you that figure. We can get it for you but I can't give it to you right now. MR. F. JOHNSTON: That's fine, thank you. Mr.

Chairman, what is the relationsh ip of the MHR C with the Leaf Rapids Corporation? MR. EVANS: The Leaf Rapids Corporation Is actually a subsidi ary of the Manitoba Development Corporation. Our relationsh ip is one of an agreement wi th them whereby we have turned over certain parcels of land in west Selkir k and south St. Bon iface to that corporation with the understandin g that they will be bringing those lands on stream in the near future. So it is an understand ing with that other government agency. MR. F.

JOHNSTON: I am reading a news release here that they are wo rking on these 435 family serviced lots in Selkirk. Do I read this in such a way that the MH RC will then purchase some of that developed land to put some of their own houses on? MR. EVANS: The policy, as indi cated last ni ght, Mr. Chairman , in these subd ivision developments is to make up to 25 percent available for social housing, co-op housing, and maybe other related spec ial categories. That wou ld, therefore, also apply to this west Selkir k area being developed by the Leaf Rapids Corporation . MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr.

Chairman , I know it's Leaf Rapids that is developing it, but if the Manit oba Housing is going to be putting houses in that particula r area, it says the average lot is 35 by 80 feet. That sounds to me as if we're looking at a type of design, zero lot lines or something of that nature. Is that what we're looking at in that particu lar design of the housing project? MR. EVANS: Yes, Mr. Chairman , zero lot lines and also a consider able amount of town house-type of structures. They can build anywhere. There is no setback requirement, apparently.

This is a plan that was appr oved by the various levels of government in cluding the Town of Selkirk. it's a rather in novative type of commun ity design, I understand, and wha t they're doing with the other land, you know the di fference between 35 and 50 feet frontage , they are using some of that property to develop parklik e areas in the centre' so that these houses look out on to a common green space. I think there are some examples you can see, maybe in the Norwood area. Now that's not necessarily a good comparison. Wi ldwood.

But where there is an oppor tunity to have a large, green common space and that's what their plan is in that area and that's why they're at the zero lot line. MR. CHAIRMAN: The time being 12 :30, I understand there is another matter com ing before the House at 2:30 this afternoon. The Honourable Min ister of Agricu lture. 2250

Friday, April 22, 1977 HONOU RABLE SAMUEL USKIW (Lac du Bonnet): Whether there cou Id be agreement to extend the sittings so that you might comple te the department, if it appears that we are near completion. Then, we won't have to come back . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Memb er for Sturgeon Creek. MR. F. JOHNSTON: lt wo uld take a little longer than the members wo uld like to sit. Mr. Chairman, I am as anxious to get those men there back to work as anybody, but I do have some more questions. MR. CHAIRMAN: Comm ittee rise and report. 2251

THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY of MANITOBA Friday, April 22, 19 77 ESTIMATES - CONTINUING EDUCATION CHAIRMAN'S RULI NG MR. CHAIRMAN, Mr. William Jenkins (Logan): The Honourable House Leader. MR. GREEN: Mr. Chairman , I think that when committee rose yesterday, there was a process taking place with regard to a ruling that was being made ... MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please. MR.

GREEN: ... and I wo nder whether the Chairman wou ld, before dealing with the matter, whether he wou ld be wi llin g to see whether it could be resolved or whether he wo uld be willing to accept the submis sions by various members in the House with respect to the ruling, because I understand when the matter was being dealt with yesterday, that there were no suggesti ons given by Members of the House as to how the matter could be resolved and it mi ght be a problem to make a ruling under those cir cumstances.

I wo nder whether the Chair man would hear members out on the position or to see whether the matter could be resolved as was suggested during the subm ission yesterday so that it wou ld not be nece ssary to have the matter dealt with by any type of definitive ruling when it could poss ibly be agreed to by Members of the House. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please. I had intended to deal with this matter with the Speaker. I made a rulin g last evening. I made it in conjunction with Citation 15 8 subsection 3 of Beauchesne which states as follows: "An unsig ned letter should not be read into the House.

On the 16 th of May, 1928, a member stated during the debate, a letter which he had been quoting was not signed. The Speaker said, "Such a letter should not be read into Hansard and all letters when read must be sig ned and they become part of the documents of the House." Canadia n Debates, 1928, Page 3003. Last evening, the Honourable Member for Mi nnedosa read into the record - I asked him if he wo uld table the document which he agreed to do. Up on examination of the document, I find the document is not add ressed to the honourable member; it is not signed.

There was a postscript add ressed to the honourable memb er with a signa ture. I ruled that the fi rst portion of the letter was not adm issible by virtue of Citation 15 8, subsection 3. I stated that the postscript which was add ressed to the honourable member and signe d by the constituent of the honourable member was permis sible to be put into the record. The Honourable for Minne dosa stated he wo uld bring a signa ture tomorrow, wh ich was today. I stated that that was not the spi rit of the citation . The citation is such that unsig ned letters shall not form part of the records or documents of this House.

The Honourable Member for Fort Garry challenged my ruli ng and that is the way that the matter stands now, honourable members of this Assembly. And therefore I cannot accept a letter that someone brings here unsig ned and maybe brings a signa ture two orthreeweeks hence or something lik e that. You have rules of this Assembly and if you are not prepared to live with them, then I suggest to you that you better look for a new Chairman. MR. GREEN: Mr. Chairman, I don't think that it is the intention of any honourable members to reflect on the Chairman .

Certainl y the rulin g as you have given it wo uld commend itself to many. I understand that there was a suggestion that the reading of the letter in Hansard be struck from Hansard . Someone suggested that this was so. I don't think that there is any provision for the striking from Hans ard and if that is not a feature of your ruling, then as I understand it, you are ruling that the unsig ned letter is not admissable, should not be tabled. The honourable member, if he wishes, can get the letter tabled by getting it sig ned and then bringing it in, which wo uld be acceptable.

If, as I understand it correctly, there is no question of Hansard being deleted, that it is merely your judgment that the letter is not sig ned and therefore cannot be adm issable under Beauchesne, then I don't know whether that is wha t is being challenged.

And if it is not being challenged, then I don' t know whether you wo uld permit it to proceed as I have suggested, that your ruling that the letter in its present form is not admissable; that to be admissable it wo uld have to be signe d, which could be done at any time, and that Hansard wo uld merely record that you found it inadm issable although there wo uld be nothing stricken from Hansard . If that is as I understand it, then I am not sure that there is any challenge to your ruling. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Morris. MR. JORGENSON: Mr.

Chairman, if I may be permitted to speak on thepoint of order, I think what the House Leader on the government side has said is essentially correct. A docum ent, according to the rules as you have read them, Sir , must be signed to be adm issable for tabling, but having been read into the record, it remains a part of that record .

And for the Chairman or any officer officiating in this Chamber to take it upon himself to remove a portion of the record is indeed a dang erous precedent - the latest of whic h we have recollection of was in 1956 during the pipeline debate and we all know the consequences of that action. However, Sir, you did not make it clear whether or not the letter was not adm issable only as a document to be tabled, and if you have ruled that it is not adm issable as a document to be tabled, I have no quarrel with that parti cular ruling. The only 2252

Friday, April 22, 19 77 question that is raised in my mi nd is the advisa bili ty of declaring that what has been put on the record now can be struck from the record . I contend, Sir , that that cannot be done. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable House Leader. MR. GREEN: Mr.

Chairman , this is precisely the poi nt where I believe that we can remove all of ourselves from a di fficult situation because I gather wha t the Honourable Hous e Leader of the Conservative Party has said is that there really is no chal lenge, as he sees it, to the question of adm issab il ity on the basis of sig nature because the Honourable Member for Min nedosa can reintroduce it if he gets it signed.

And if that is your ruling, I gather, although I am not certain, that there is no challenge but that Hansard wo uld merely record what had occu rred, that there wo uld be removal, and perhaps you never intended to say that because you did not say that in your ruling this morning. If that's the case then I gather that it's poss ible that the challenge to the ruling will be wi thdrawn and the letter will be dealt with when it can be tabled . MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please. Order please.

The in structions I gave to the recorder were as follows: that the letter that was read in by the Honourable Member for Min nedosa was to be translated by the Hansard staff, held out of Hansard pending a decision of this House. And that is wher e the matter stands at the present time. MR. GREEN: Wel l, Mr . Chairman , this is the issue, I guess, that we are faced with .

I believe that all honourable members, or at least I believe that most honourable members accept the fact that you can make a rulin g that the letter not be tabled and I gather that the only question at issue is whether Hansard should have a deletion.

I am not aware of any provision for a deletion from Hansard, and I again say that if that is not your ruling, if you are ruling that the letter be not admitted, ! gather there is no chal lenge to that and that what will appear on the record is the reading in of a person - just as Hansard does not strike out inadm issable questions - they are merely ruled as inadm issable and shown on the record as having been made inadm issable - and I believe, Mr. Chairman, that that wo uld be satis factory to all parties conc erned. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Memb er for Morris. MR. JORGENSON: Mr .

Chairman , there is one further point that I think perhaps has not been mentio ned and maybe should be taken into consid eration , that the letter, as I understand it, is not a personal letter. it's a publi c docum ent now si nce it is in the hands of the Ombudsman. Verification of whether or not it is an authentic letter can easily be made by checking with the Ombud sman, or alternately, having the Member for Min nedosa have the sig nature attached to it. But that is really a minor point as far as I am concerned . ! don't think that's at issue.

The concern that I have is whether or not there is authority by anybody in this House to strike something from the record or prevent statements that have been made in this House being placed on the record , whether or not they are subsequently ruled adm issab le for tablin g. I think that is a very serious point that we want to make sure we don't make any impr oper decision s on at this point. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for fort Garry. MR. SHERMAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman . I would just like to take one minu te to clarify my challenge.

I believe that it is impor tant that we determin e in this House, and perhaps it should be done by the Rules Comm ittee, what constitutes a signe d letter and what doesn't. I believe the question over the authenticity of the sig nature or whether the letter was properly sig ned or not could be challenged. I don't believe that we were challenging that. My challenge was to a ruling, Sir, which I may have misint erpreted, but I understood your ruling to be that the letter be stricken from the record. That was what I was challenging.

If you could clarify your ruling, Sir, I am sure we could arrive at an amenable solution . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable House Leader. MR. GREEN: Mr. Chairman, ma

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	30-4-45a
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	30th 4th hansardpdf 45a.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	9f15dd6949865dc5fedc4b7463a2f45ca9f75777

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