Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 80 (27th Legislature, 4th Session)

27-4-80

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 9:30 o'Clock, Friday, April 30th, 1965 Opening Prayer by Madam Speaker. MADAM SPEAKER: Presenting Petitions Reading and Receiving Petitions Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees Notices of Motion Introduction of Bills TheHonourable the Provincial Secretary. 2045 HON. ROBERT G; SMELLIE (Minister of Municipal Affairs) (Birtl e-Russell) introduced Bills No .. 131,

An Act respecting the Flag of Manitoba; No. 132,

An Act respecting the Taxa tion of the Canadian Pacific Railway by the. City of Winnipeg, and to amend the Winnipeg Char ter 1956. MADAM SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. MR. RUSSELL PAULLEY (Leader of the New Democratic Party) (Radisson): Madam Speaker, before the Orders of the Day, I would like to direct a question to the Minister of Labour. Could he inform us as to whether or not the Minimum Wage Board.of Manitoba is currently holding hearings, and if so, where, and how many have been held? · HON.

OBIE BAIZLEY (Minister of Labour) (Osborne): Madam Speaker, the Minimum Wage Board is not holding hearings at the present time. One of the management representa tives of the Board, Mr. Ernie Martin, had to resign, having taken up a managerial position in the east. He has been replaced on the board by Mr. S. B. Nitikman, and they will be hold ing their hearings very shortly. MR. PAULLEY: .... ..... appeal to the Minister, Madam Speaker, that there will be no undue delay. HON.

GURNEY EVANS (Minister of Industry and Commerce) (Fort Rouge): Madam Speaker, before you proceed, may I lay on the table of the House a Return to an Order of the House No. 26, on the motion of the Honourable Member for Brokenhead. MADAM SPEAKER: Order for Return standing in the name of the Honourable ..... HON; DUFF ROBLIN (Premier) (Wolseley): Madam Speaker, I am sorry, I should have stood before to lay on the table of the House reply to an Order of the House on the motion of the Honourable.

Member for Rhineland in connection with the wartime emergency powers, and.another on the motion of the Honourable Member for Logan with respect to efficiency sur veys. MR . EVANS: Madam Speaker, before proceeding, may I lay on the table of the House Return to an Order for Papers No. 9, on the motion of the Honourable Member for Assiniboia. MR. PAULLEY: Madam Speaker, before the Orders of the Day, I would like to address a question to the Honourable the First Minister. Have you received a reply from your telegram to the Government of Canada respecting Air Canada ? MR.

ROBLIN: Madam Speaker, I have received a reply, It was just placed on my desk. I haven't had a chance to read it. I'll report to the House this afternoon after I've looked it over. MR . GILDAS MOLGAT (Leader of the Opposition) (Ste. Rose): Madam Speaker, a sub sequent question. Have you found the previous telegram which has been lost? MADAM SPEAKER: Order for Return standing in the name of the Honourable the Member for Assiniboia. MR . LEONARD A.

BARKMAN (Carillon): Madam Speaker, in the absence of the Hon ourable Member of Assiniboia, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for La Verendrye, that an Order of the House do issue for Return showing 1. Where the land has been acquired for an overpass at the junction of No, 1 Trans- Canada Highway West and the Perimeter Highway. 2.. What the size.and legal description of the land is. 3, From whom each parcel was purchased. 4. When it was purchased. 5, The amount paid for each parcel. 6, Whether all the land required has been purchased.

MADAM SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion car- ried, MADAM SPEAKER: Order for Return standing in the name of the Honourable the Member for Gladstone,

2046 April 30th, 1965 MR. M. N. HRYHORCZUK, Q. C. (Ethelbert Plains): Madam Speaker, in the absence of the Honourable· Member for .Gladstone, I wish to move, seconded by the Honourable the Leader of the Opposition, that an Order of the House do issue for a Return showing the details of all land and building appraisals made by, or on behalf of the Government of Manitoba of the properties in the area of Oak Lake project and Pipestone Creek, showing in particular (

a) the date on which the appraisals were made; (

b) by whom the appraisals were made; (

c) the qualifications of the appraisers at the time the appraisals were made; (

d) whether in all cases the appraisers were accredited appraisers; (

e) what basis of payment was, fee, per diem or what; (

f) how much was paid for the work; (

g) the description of the property appraised (

h) what appraisal values were indicated for the various parcels of land and buildings· appraised. MADAM SPEAKER: . . . . . . . Are you ready for the question? HON. GEORGE HUTTON (Minister of Agriculture and Conservation) (Rockwood-Iberville): Madam Speaker, we will accept this Order for Return subject to the usual conditions respect ing the confidential nature of inter-departmental papers. Madam Speaker put the question and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MADAM SPEAKER: Committee of the Whole House. The Honourable· the Minister of Mines and Natural Resources. MR.

EVANS: Madam Speaker, in the absence of the Minister, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable the Minister of Welfare, that Madam Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee of the Whole to consider Bills No. 102 and 117. MADAM BPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion car ried and the House resolved itself into a Committee of the Whole with the Honourable Member for Winnipeg Centre in the Chair. COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE HOUSE MR. CHAIRMAN: Bill No. 102. MR. MOLGAT: Mr.

Chairman, before we start on 102, I understand that there was some substantial amendments made in committee. Are there copies of the amendments. I was unfortunately absent, I would like to know ...... . MR. ROBLIN: Mr. Chairman, perhaps one of my honourable friends 1 colleagues might have that information and could give it to him. Bill No. 102, Sections 1 to 8 (

c) read and passed. MR. HRYHORC ZUK: Mr. Chairman, I would like to draw the attention of the Committee to the fact that I believe that all these amendments should be read on Third reading so we •d have them on record, because if you just say "amended" some members of the Assembly that are not members of Law Amendments may object to the amendment and without knowing what it is, they couldn •t object ..... ...•... MR. CHAIRMAN: Well I'll read this.

Section 8, sub-clause (

b) now reads as follows: "By adding thereto immediately after the letter "B" in the third line of Clause A of Subsection 1 thereof the words and figures "other than an offence under Subsection 2 or 3 of

Section 40 and

Section 41, 45, 52 or 62; Subsection 4 of

Section 65 or

Section 72 or

Section 8 passed as amended.

Section 9 passed. The new

Section 10 which reads as follows: 10 -

Section 88 of the Act as amended (

a) by adding thereto immediately after Clause 18 thereof the following Clause 18 (

a) Regulating the serving under the authority of a special permit issued by the director of the meat of a wild animal that has been legally taken under the authority of a licence to hunt and kill the wild animal for food in a place where meals are served for remuneration or the hope or expectation thereof; and (

b) by adding thereto immedi ately after Clause 26 thereof, the following .clause: 26 (

a) prohibiting or regulating the pos session of firearms or ammunition or certain types or classes thereof in any part of Manitoba in which it may appear that it is desirable to take special means to prevent violation of this Act or the Migratory Birds Convention Act (Canada).

Section 10 passed .. ... MR. ELMAN GUTTORMSON (St. George): With reference to that amendment to

Section 10, I'm not a member of Law Amendments, but do I understand correctly that wild game can still be served in a restaurant for remuneration providing that restaurant or organization gets a permit from the Director of Wildlife prior to doing this? MR. ROBLIN: It's the intention to have this closely regulated only on special permit. MR. CHAIRMAN: New

section 10 passed. There's a new

Section 11 which reads as follows: 11. This Act with the exception of Sections 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5 comes into force on the day it receives the Royal Assent and Sections 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5 come into force on the 21st

April 30th, 1965 2047 (MR. CHAIRMAN cont'd.) ... day of June 1965. New

Section 11 passed. Bill 102 passed. Bill No. 117 was read

section by

section and passed, . MR. CHAIRMAN: Committee rise. Call in the Speaker. JN SESSION MR. CHAIRMAN: Madam Speaker, the Committee has considered Bills Nos. 102 and 117 and has approved both of these bills without amendment. MR. JAMES COW AN, Q. C. (Winnipeg Centre): Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Pembina that the report of the Committee be received. . MADAM SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion car- :r'ied. MR. EV ANS: Madam Speaker, in the absence of the Minister of Mines and Natural Resources, I move, seconded by the Honourable the Minister of Welfare that Bill No. 102,

an Act to amend The Wildlife Act be now read a third time and passed, MADAM SPEAKER presented the motion. MR. MOLGAT: Madam Speaker, I don't like to hold up the third reacting of this bill. would just like to say a word about some of the discussion that was held on it. When this mat ter came up originally for second reading we pointed out the fears that we had with regard to the sale of the meat of wild animals and that this should be very closely looked at, we would not be prepared to proceed with it on the basis that was previously proposed.

I •m pleased to ·see that amendments have been made which I think changed this so that it is worth trying. I'm not so sure that it will be completely satisfactory but I am prepared to give it a good try and see what the results of the amendments are going to be. I understand that the Game and Fish Associations who are very concerned about these matters agree to these amendments.

I would just like to say that I am sorry that the Minister of Mines and Natural Resources is riot in his seat because when he closed the debate on second reading he was highly critical of the sug gestions that we had made in this regard and I'd simply like to point out to the government that when suggestions come from this side they might be well advised instead of being simply critical of them to look at them a little more carefully. MR. ROBLIN: Madam Speaker, in the absence of the Minister perhaps I might say a word about that.

I think that "highly critical" is a set of adjectives that could more prope:r'ly be applied to my honourable friend than it could be to people on this side of the House.

I think that in his speech -- I believe in his introduction to the bill my honourable friend made it clear certainly in the course of the debate what the intentions of the government were, that there should not be an indiscriminate approach to this matter but that it should be closely regulated; and I recall as well, if I am correct, that he gave an undertaking that if the word ing in the bill was not satisfactory that he would amend it to make it satisfactory to give full effect to his intent. So I think those words should be said.

MADAM SPEAKER put the question and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. Bill No. 117 was read a third time and passed. MR. ROBLIN: Madam Speaker, I wonder if you would call the motion on the Constitution. MADAM SPEAKER: The adjourned debate on the proposed resolution of the Honourable the Attorney-General and the proposed amendment thereto by the Honourable the Leader of the New Democratic Party, The Honourable the Member for Rhineland. MR. ROBLIN: The member is not here, Madam Speaker. I wonder if anyone else wishes to speak. I presume it would be in order to do.

MADAM SPEAKER: Any other member wishing to speak? HON. STEW ART E. McLEAN, Q. C. (Attorney-General) (Dauphin): Madam Speaker, perhaps I might say a word just with respect to the amendment proposed by the Honourable the Leader of the New Democratic Party and to say that with great regret I will not be able to sup port his amendment.

I think in some respects the amendment is contrary to the intention of the resolution as presented to the Legislature and I would have to repeat my comment made quite quickly after the amendment was presented originally the other day that I believe the suggestion that the Committee which is proposed by the resolution, the suggestion that that Committee should report to this Legislature would, certainly if it is constitutional in any event in my opinion would not be a workable arrangement and would not be an idea that we would want to encourage in this Legislature.

And so just to say, Madam Speaker, that I will not be able to support the amendment proposed bythe Leader of the New Democratic Party.

2048 April 30th, 1965 MR. PAULLEY: Madam Speaker, I wonder if the Honourable the Attorney-General would permit a question? Does my honourable friend not think that it is the interest and con cern of this Legislature to consider the recommendations which might be made by the Commit tee that you are requesting be set up by the Parliament of Canada? MR.

McLEAN: Madam Speaker, there is no doubt whatsoever that the report of that Committee, indeed the deUberations of the Committee would be of the utmost importance and interest to the members of this House and to the government and that their report would be closely studied, but that's a vastly different thing from calling or requiring the Committee to report to the Legislature. MR. ROBLIN: Madam Speaker, I suppose the House would be willing to allow this mat ter to stand in the name of the Honourable the Member for Rhineland if no one else wishes to speak at the moment.

May I now ask for the resolution on the Individual Rights resolution. MADAM SPEAKER: The adjourned debate on the proposed motion of the Honourable the Minister of Mines and Natural Resources. The Honourable the Leader of the Opposition. MR. MOLGAT: Madam Speaker, I asked for this to stand yesterday so that I could read the debate that had gone on the day before when I was unfortunately absent. I must confess that with the hours that we are operating on I have not been able to read them yet and I wonder if I could have this stand.

I will try and get them read during the course of discussions this morning and be ready to go at the next Sitting, May I have this stand? MR. ROBLIN: May we now have the resolution on shared services. MADAM SPEAKER: The adjourned debate on the proposed motion of the Honourable the Minister of Education. The Honourable the Member for Rhineland. MR. ROBLIN: Madam, the honourable member is not here but I wonder if anyone else would care to continue the debate at the moment. MADAM SPEAKER: Any other member wishing to speak? MR.

ROBLIN: In that case, Madam, I suggest that we allow the item to stand and I'll move the Committee of Supply. I move, seconded by the Honourable Minister of Municipal Affairs that Madam Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Com mittee to consider of the supply to be granted to Her Maje sty. MADAM SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion car ried, and the House resolved itself into Committee of Supply with the Honourable Member for Winnipeg Centre in the Chair. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY MR. CHAIRMAN: The Department of Municipal Affairs. Resolution No. 79. MR.

SMELLIE: Mr. Chairman, it's with some pleasure that I'm able to report on be half of this department for the third time. On the first occasion I really didn •t know what the department was all about. Last year I was still feeling my way around but this year I do feel that we have made some progress in the past year in this department. The Department of Municipal Affairs is essentially a service department, that is it is a department which provides certain services to the municipalities and local government districts of the province.

The various branches of the department advise municipalities on a very wide range of subjects. Generally speaking, I believe that the municipalities of Manitoba have appreciated the advice and guidance obtained from the branches of this department and the help provided to them in solving problems which arise at the municipal level from time to time. I would just like to say a word now about some of the senior staff in that Department. The whole province knew and loved Dr.

Murray Fisher when he was the Deputy Minister of the Department of Municipal' Affairs and there were many people who felt when he left this position that it would be very difficult to replace him. Since that time we have been rather fortunate in the people who have held the position. First of all W. J.

Johnston who held the position for a short time and then moved over to Chairman of the Municipal Board where he is continuing to perform a very valuable service for this province; and since that time in the person of Charlie Chappell who came to this province from the Province of Saskatchewan in 1947 to set up the Provincial Municipal Assessment program and who did a rather remarkable job in that particular field and now has taken over the department.

I think that most municipal people thr:Jughout the province would agree that Charlie Chappell has done a remarkably fine job as the Deputy Minister of this department. He has come to be known and respected by municipal people throughout the Province of Manitoba in much the same way that Dr .Fisher was.

April 30th, 1965 2049 MR. SMELLIE cont'd.) There are however a few municipalities who appear to feel that the department is exer cising controls over their activities to the extent that they are very restricted in carrying out their responsibilities. These are often the municipalities that require the greatest amount of advice and assistance to ensure that their programs are properly organized, that they are legally sound and financially feasible. The department has grown considerably in the last two years. In 1963 it consisted of four main branches.

Provision was made in 1964 for the ad dition of the Planning and Municipal Services branches. This year a new branch is being established which will be known as the Municipal Budget 'and Finance branch. Creation of this branch will serve to bring together those sections of the Department dealing with all phases of municipal financing. The branch will be composed of six persons who were formerly employed by the Municipal Board including Mrs. McConaghy who is well known to all people in municipal administration throughout the province.

It will also include the staff of the Provincial Muni cipal Auditor, formerly with the Administration Branch of the department and who has been responsible for budgeting, accounting and the direction of the municipal audit staff, together with the preparation of the statistical information that's compiled each year after the returns are in from municipalities and which is forwarded to you annually about September or Oc tober. The estimated expenditures of the Department have increased from $430, 604 in the year ending March 31, 1964 to an estimated expenditure this year in the amount of some $2, 198,640.

A substantial part of this increase is due to the change in policy which allows the province to pay grants in lieu .of taxes to municipalities on land and buildings situated within the boundaries of the municipality and owned by the province. This item alone accounts for $1, 274,000 or slightly more than 72 percent of the total increase. The Municipal Advisory Committee has been reconstituted.

The Committee as now es tablished is composed of the president and vice-president of the Union of Manitoba Municipal ities, the president of the Manitoba Urban Association, a representative of that association from one of the metropolitan municipalities, the Deputy Minister of Municipal Affairs and an independent chairman who is a member of the Manitoba Municipal Secretary-Treasurers Association. l"ll have a word more to say about this committee in a few minutes.

The annual report of the Municipal Board has been tabled and it's not my intention to deal further with this board at this time as I am sure the members have had the opportunity to peruse that report and make themselves familiar with the content of it and I am sure that members are aware of the valuable service that this board is providing to the Province of Manitoba. Progress is being made in integrating some of the local government districts with municipalities in carrying out joint programs.

During the past year the local government districts of Armstrong and Fisher have joined with the rural municipalities of Bifrost and Gimli in creating the Interlake Weed Control District for the purpose· of controlling weeds in that Inter lake area. Several of the local government districts have participated in Winter Works programs. A total of their projects this past year was estimated to cost some $137,650, giving employment to 258 persons, for a total of 11, 120 man days of work. The cost of the municipal assessment program is now being borne fully by the munici palities.

This branch of the department prepared it's estimate of expenditures for this cur rent fiscal year before the estimates for the branch were finalized. The whole matter was thoroughly discussed with members of the Municipal Advisory Committee. They spent several days in discussions of the proposed program and reported to the Minister that they approved the program as provided in the estimates of the Director of Assessment with some reserva tions.

Those reservations were that the program was not being stepped up fast enough to suit the needs of the municipalities in the province and the Municipal Advisory Committee has urged us to bend every effort to increase the size of the staff in the assessment branch so that we can undertake assessments more rapidly than has been done in the past. It wasn't until we received the approval of the Municipal Advisory Committee that the estimates for the assessment branch were approved by the department. The assessment program is being extended this year to include the towns of Flin Flon and The Pas.

The assessor at the Town of The Pas resigned last year and this town has experienced some difficulty in obtaining a satisfactory replacement. The assessor of the Town of Flin Flon is due to retire in 1965 and both of these towns have requested that the province take over their assessment program. This also was one of the recommendations in the Michener Commission report. The Municipal Services and Research Branch this year is providing assessment and tax

2050 April 30th, 1965 (MR. SMELLIE cont•d.) ..... rolls to 188 municipalities and local government districts. These are prepared by IBM process. The cost to the municipalities and the local government districts for this service, including all stationery and all of "the work involved amounts to 11. l cent per entry on the roll which is considerably cheaper than the municipalities were able to do the work manually in previous years. The branch is also preparing uniform state ments and demand for taxes for 190 municipalities and local government districts in 1965.

I have for the information of members of the House a sample of the statement and demand for taxes. These come in continuous forms which are imprinted in the order that the items ap pear on the assessment roll of the municipality.

For most of the municipalities the informa tion that's being printed on these forms this year is the information that appears on the assess ment roll including the legal descript ion of the property, the frontage or acreage, the school division, the school district, the hospital district and the assessment for land and buildings and the total assessment, together with the roll number and the name and address of the as sessed owner.

For approximately 50 municipalities we have computed the taxes at the same time that these statements were prepared and in those municipalities the amount of school tax and the amount of municipal tax are imprinted right on the form for each individual piece of property. In a few only, where they had limited numbers of school districts and where there were few if any local improvement districts we have been able to compute also their total taxes and im print that on the statement and demand for taxes. For the others, these forms come in con tinuous form as I have suggested to you.

They can be set in their box on the floor in front of the typewriter and run through the typewriter so that the balance of the information from the assessment roll, the tax roll of the municipality can be printed on the form by typewriter. For example the local improvement charges, can be typed right in and it can be done continu ously. If there are two persons working in the office it can be done quite rapidly. I wonder if I could have the pages come and pick up these and distribute one to each of the members of the House.

For the convenience of the secretary-treasurer once·the informa tion is all typed on the form all he need do to separate the form is take it by the two ends and pull it apart like this. This removes the carbon papers from the form itself and will leave a yellow copy which is the copy retained by the municipality for its own records. The other two copies are attached together on the left hand edge. The first copy is the statement and demand for taxes. The second copy is the application for school tax rebate.

The only figure which shows the taxes is the item for school taxes and the form can be very simply handled by the municipalities. When the individual comes in to pay his taxes the first form is receipted, the second form can be stamped with their "Received Payment" stamp by the municipality and initialled by the cashier or the secretary-treasurer and then the taxpayer is on his own to make application for his school tax rebate. The cost to the municipalities of providing this service is 3-1/2 cents per statement.

I believe you would be interested in seeing a sample of this work and this is the sample that is being distributed. I think you might be interested also in the reaction of some of the municipalities and I have brought with me two of the representative letters that have been received by the depart ment from secretary-treasurers. The first one that we received was from the Town of Glad stone.

It was dated March 18, 1965 and addressed to George Hogan, the Director of Tax Rolls: 11 This will acknowledge receipt of the 1965 tax notices complete with the amounts of school tax and general municipal taxes calculated and indicated. Following your advice I engaged extra help for entering the amounts in the tax roll and writing the notices as one oper ation. Starting Monday morning March 15 and working at a normal pace we had the tax notices in the post office on Tuesday at 5: 00 P. M.

This saved approximately three weeks office working time as it was only 11 days from the passing of the budget until the notices were mailed. To say the least I am ext remel y pleased with the results and wish to take this opportunity to thank you for the excellent jOb done." Signed 'E. J. McCallum', Secretary Treasurer. There was a cheque enclosed for $27. 44 as payment in full for this ser\"ice. The seeond letter comes from the Rural Municipality of Russell - which for the informa tion of the uninformed is in God •s country. It is also addressed to Mr.

George Hogan, the Director of Tax Rolls: "This will acknowledge receipt of the 1965 t1L'..: statements for the Rural l\l unicipalit\" of Russell and I am enclosing herewith the municipality's cheque in the amount of $64. 89 for your services. I want to thank you Mr. 1-!ugan and your department for providing this service to municipalities at such a !Omall eost. This saved me two months of hard work and saved the municipality the cost of hiring extra help in the oHiee, a real time and

April 30th, 1965 2051 (MR. SMELLIE cont1d.) ... .. money saving deal for the municipalities. Many thanks, yours truly, Harry Showdra, Secretary-Treasurer. " This was one of the municipalities where we were able to compute not only the school tax and the municipal tax but the total tax.

This branch is also engaged in research into ways and means of extending mechanical production methods to municipalities in an effort to reduce clerical cost, increase office ef ficiency and to permit secretary-treasurers to devote more time to the carrying out of those administrative functions which will permit more efficient administration of municipalities.

It •s not the suggestion of the department that this will require any less assistance by secretary treasurers, but it is the hope of the department that the role of the secretary-treasurer may change to more of an advisory role to counsel rather than a slave to detail. There is indeed a saving in time to secretary-treasurers where the taxes are computed and imprinted on the statement and demand for taxes.

We have received several letters requesting further re search in this matter to see if we couldn't imprint tax rolls and calculate taxes and research is going on in this matter but we are not in a position at the present time to be able to under take this. The Planning Branch of the department continues to have more request for planning assistance than we are able to undertake.

We are experiencing some difficulty in obtaining professional planners as are all other provinces and municipalities - and I might say that the recruitment program has been going on. in the United Kingdom, and in South America, and we have had some success in obtaining additional planners but we still haven •t got the full complement of staff that we would like to have. The Planning staff however, is providing service now to 52 municipalities. It is our intention to open and staff a District Planning Of fice at Morden during 1965.

It is hoped that with the addition of this district office we will be able to increase the number of municipalities that can be serviced by this branch. Now, Mr. Chairman, if it would suit the convenience of members, it would be much easier for me if we could deal with the matters as they come up on the estimates, rather than deal with the whole matter at the beginning, MR. CHAIRMAN: 1 (

a) passed -- (Interjection) -- MR. GORDON E. JOHNSTON (Portage la Prairie): Mr. Chairman, at the outset, I would like to add my compliments to the senior members of the Municipal Affairs Department. Down through the years they have certainly given steady advice and help to the municipalities. However, there are a few points that I'd like to mention at this time. The first one is in the matter of the Municipal Assessments.

It's my understanding that the department are now expanding their service to take on more towns and villages and muni cipalities - and I hardly need to draw to the attention of the Minister the fact that there are 50 to 60 rural municipalities, towns and villages who have not been reassessed for quite some time.

As a matter of fact I believe one or two go all the way back to 1951 and 52 and in the intervening years from 152 to 1965 there are numerous municipalities which have not been re assessed and there is a feeling amongst some of the towns and cities who have had their re assessment lately that their taxpayers are comparing mill rates and assessment rates with some of these areas which have not been brought up to date and some of the dissatisfaction is coming back to the rural councillors, aldermen and reeves who•ve had to face this compar ison.

I don 1t think this comparison should exist for this length of time, that there should be more equal assessment, and it seems rather difficult to understand that the province is tak ing on more towns and cities and under their responsibilities there are these areas that have not been reassessed the province is responsible for.

I compliment the members of the Community Planning Branch for the work they're doing to make our towns and cities and country a better place to live, but one cannot help but be disturbed by the amount of junkyards and auto graveyards that are springing up on the edges of every community practically in Manitoba and something must be done in the nature of area planning where some regulations will be brought into force to stop this unsightly blight from crossing our province at the rate that it is doing so.

I know this is 3: continuing problem; it's interfering perhaps with some individual rights, and I don't believe anyone should have the right to put the blight on our countryside that is happening at the present rate. I'm sure the Minister is conversant with this problem and I certainly hope that he comes up with some solution. Another small matter I'd like to mention - it •s rather an important matter but it •s a small service that could be supplied - and that is now that towns and municipalities are enter ing into more social services, giving more aid and comfort shall I say to people, and l1m

2052 April 30th, 19 65 (MR. JOHNSTON cont•d.) .. .. .. thinking now of our elderly people, where municipalities are entering into programs to supply elderly persons housing, I think there's an area of expense in this type of program that could be cut out and there could be a considerable, saving. And that is this: that a st andard plan of housing be developed - and I'm not talking about a barracks style of building at all. There 1s several good plans of elderly persons housing in Manitoba - one that comes readily to mind is at Portage la Prairie, the Rotary Housing Unit there.

They are on their third unit and it's a tastefully designed and pleasing plan. I understand this plan is being copied in other places . My suggestion is this, that there need not be a proliferation of architectural fees such as there are in th e schools where every time a school goes up there goes a certain percentage for an architectural fee for design. I1m suggesting that the department can bring out two or three economical, tasteful designs and make these available to the municipalities along with the advice and guidance that is already coming out.

Another point I 1d like to mention at this time is the questionable practice that is going on in Manitoba where small towns and municipalities and many of limited me ans are compet ing for industry in tax give-away or tax concessions . Speaking as one who has had some ex perience in municipal work it is difficult to know - for councillors or a council to know when to stop giving, whim to stop the give-away program when the competition is on for some highly desirable industry or service that may be enticed to one's area.

I believe more guidance should come from the Department of Municipal Affairs to stop any cutthroat competition that will be detrimental to the existing taxpayers. I'm not talking about the teacher taxpayers who may benefit in some indirect means from new industry, I'm talking about the load that is now on the existing taxpayers and there certainly should be no encouragement to increase this load by, shall we say, political promises or optimistic outlooks by whoever may be in power at that particular time in that particular town. I would like the Minister to take cognizance of this problem also.

Another problem that exists in certain areas in Manitoba is in the matter of policing and policing costs. Some towns have, through geography or other problems near their town, have extra costs and I don •t think it •s quite fair that some of these places should have to bear more than their share of policing costs in Manitoba. And I'm sure the Minister knows of some of the places I speak. Perhaps because it's institutions within the town; perhaps it • s because of native populations nearby; perhaps it's from seas onal workers in and out of certain towns in our province.

I feel that some extra ass istance should be given to these municipalities that face a special problem that are not faced by the population generally. I'm sure the Minister would think som ething were wrong if I were to sit down and not mention the school tax rebate that his department is administering. I have before me a ques tion and answer sheet that was put out by the Department of Municipal Affairs. It's dated December 21, 19 64 and it's the answers to questions that were asked by municipal people with respect to the school tax rebate.

On page 2, a question asked is, Could the term 'parcel ' be more clearly defined? Of course we •re referring to parcels of land where people will have their school tax rebate based upon. The answer is, "Legi slation will be proposed to give a clearer and more comprehensive definition of the term 'parcel '. 11 Well, to date, I don •t be lieve this has been done. Am I right or wrong? Certain people are forming their own ideas of what constitutes a parcel and there's quite a rush at the Land Titles Offices in Manitoba, I am told.

They 're doing everything possible, that is some of them, to have their parcels split up in as small pieces as possi ble, On page 4, this is the same question that's dealt with in another question, it says, "Will this encourage property splits ? 11 And the answer goes into great detail but it doesn •t answer the question.

The answer says, 11Any taxpayer is entitled to apply for a rebate on each parcel of property assessed and taxable to him on the assessme nt roll, " If three quarter-se ctions are listed as three separate entries in the assessme nt tax roll under individual tax roll numbers, he is entitled to apply for three tax rebates. One for each of these properties. The same is true in respect of three lots in the uri:Jan community.

But if a building is constructed on the three lots and the three lots and buildings are assessed as only one roll entry, only one ap plication for school tax rebate may be laid, even though the three separate lots of property are filed under three separate certificates of title. This really doesn't answer the question, I didn •t think. On page 5, and of course this is the -- despite what the Minister tells us in the compli mentary letter he reads from a municipal official, I'm sure he can •t stand up and tell us that this is unanimous by any means. I would doubt if even 30 or 40 percent of the municipal people

April 30th, 19!35 2053 (MR. JOHNSTON cont•d,) feel in the manner that he has expressed with his examples there. And that is question No. 22. On Page 5 of the question and answer pamphlet my question is, would it not be possible to have the secretary-treasurer of a municipality deduct the allowable rebate on school levies when taxes are paid before December 31st of the year of demand so a taxpayer would not have to pay this money out? Well, surely we all know in this House that the real reason for the direct rebate from the province is a political reason. This is accepted all over Manitoba I am sure.

But surely the government can take their credit if this is what they are wishing to do, in the manner that is more consistent with saving the taxpayer's money in administration. Why can •t the municipalities give a credit at the time that taxes are being paid. The govern ment can still claim the credit in the same way, there •s no disputing this whatsoever. But, Mr.

Chairman, this question. and answer sheet is only supplying ammunition to the municipal people who had to deal directly with the public so it appears to me that our secretary- treasur ers and municipal people are having to defend this method of tax rebate. They're' having to be the ones who deal directly with the public and perhaps take some of the resentment or the edge off the taxpayer's feelings when he finds that he has to raise all of his money, pay all of his taxes, and then wait for some time before a big cheque comes from the 'Big Daddy' in Winnipeg.

I 'm sure that the resentment has been felt in the department over this· step. The other part of question 22 - or it's rather a statement and there's no answer to this. It says, raising this money which a person will eventually get back could in some cases provide a hardship and may' prevent some people from paying their taxes up in full. There's no answer to that. It's an obvious assumption to rnake when people are raising three or four or five hundred dollars in taxes that if they didn't have to take an extra fifty along with it there would be less hardship, it would be easier to handle, easier to be paid.

However, the answer to that question is while it might have been possible to have handled the school tax rebate through a deduction at the source of imposition of the tax, the policy of the government in re spect of the school tax rebate is set forth in the legislation relative thereto and prescribes the manner in which the school tax rebate is to be paid. That's - well I suppose it could be called an answer but it's just, the government's as much as saying well we know it can be done that way but we're doing it our way because we're gaining more political mileage out of it. Mr.

Chairman, I don •t think this is right. I think that it •s placing difficulties, troubles on the shoulders of the secretary-treasurers and the mayors and reeves and so on who have to make these explanations to the public. I have here on this sheet 25 explanations that they must make when they're asked and I think that if they are going to have to do all of this they should surely be able to take the easy steps and that is give a tax credit right at the time, cut out all the nonsense of mailing out cheques and extra staff and whatnot in Winnipeg and get on with the business. MR. PAULLEY: Mr.

Chairman, may I first of all join in the compliments to the members of the staff of the Department of Municipal Affairs. I think as far as the staff itself is concerned we do have very efficient and capable people within the department itself. I join too in the reminiscing of the period in which Murray Fisher was the Deputy Minis ter of Municipal Affairs and can recall on a number of occasions when Murray Fisher held extension courses or took a: prominent

part in extension courses for municipal officials at the university. I might say, Mr. Chairman, I still have in my library at home many of the docu ments that were produced at that time and the compendium of the deliberations. Many of the words that were spoken at thattim� by Mr. Fisher I can still recall and many of the sugges tions that he made at that time for the benefit of the municipalities and the taxpayers in the municipalities have still not as yet been achieved. I agree with the Minister and will follow his suggestion that we deal precisely with the items as we reach them. However, Mr.

Chairman, there is one or two omissions that I see on the paper insofar as Municipal Affairs are concerned in the Province of Manitoba tha:t must of necessity be dealt with under the item Administration and the Minister's salary. I think the foremost and most important item to be considered is the failure of the Minister and the government to reduce the charges that are being made on property for services to people.

From time to time we have had various municipal commissions and committees investigating into the problem of ever increasing taxes on property and have made recommendations to the government, but still we find, Mr. Chairman, year by year e\·er increasing loads at the municipal level. As one follows the information pe·rtaining to this that we are receiving through the media of the ·newspaper despite the consideration of the school rebate by the government we

2054 April 30th, 1965 (MR. PAUL LEY cont• d. ) . . . . . find that local taxes are still on the increase . As a matter of fact, Mr. Chairman, while I haven •t the documents before me at the present time, I have a number of newspaper reports of municipalities in the province where tax increases have been as high as an increase of 10 mills. Surely this does not reflect any credit on the De partment of Municipal Affairs but more in particular the government of the Province of Mani toba.

Through gimm ickry in the school rebate tax the government is indicating that there may be some_ reduction insofar as school taxes are concerned and much discussio n has taken place respecting this, but the cold facts of the matter, Mr. Chairman, is that this government has not taken very much consideration. of the recomm endations of the respe ctive corn'!lissions dealing with the problems of municipal finance. This government is still loading the municipal corporations and the taxpayers therein with ever increasing amounts of money required to be raised at the local level for services to people.

In most of the reports that I have read, corn mis sion reports that I have read, the Murray Fisher report, the Michener report, agree that it is time that there should be a real shifting of the burden of taxation from the local taxpayer for those services which affect people. But this relief has not as yet been provided. I do not like to rehash elections.

I recall in the 1962 election we of the New Dem ocratic Party suggested in our program that we would achieve this reduction. -- (Interject ion) -- Yes, and baby bonds too which would have provided for education for our future young people in university level at far less cost than they are finding it at the present time. For an investment of about $361. 00 at birth each individual child would have at the age of entering into university a $1, 000 bond through the esca lation of interest rates, etc. So we did, and I make no apolo gies for it. But we also suggested, Mr.

Chairman, that services to people should be divorced from local taxation and that local taxation should only bear the burden of servic_es to property which in our opinion at that time we figured was proper and correct. While I confess that as a result of that election my numbers in this House were reduced, I can with pride, Mr. Chairman, say that the Murray Fisher Commiss ion report which was received following the election substantiated our claim . And then too, following that the Michener report went along too with this basic concept. But what has this government done?

As I illustrated a moment or two ago municipal taxation is again on the rise or indeed it is continuing to rise as the result of the inaction of this government to implem ent the recomm end ations the commiss ions have set, and at the same time reduce the income tax level of those people who could well afford to pay. That•s one of the recomm endations that we offered to the electors of Manitoba that on a more equitable basis services to people would be provided for.

But this government is con tinuing in the same manner almost without exception as the Legislatures of Manitoba have operated for almost a hundred years, namely, lo ading the taxpayer at the local level with the burden of having to provide for those services which should be the responsibility of the senior government or alternately of the senior governments. So, Mr.

Chairman, while I can compli ment the staff of the Department of Municipal Affairs, certainly no compliments can be directed in respect of policy either to the Minister of Municipal Affairs or to the Government of Mani toba. -- (Interjection) -- I beg your pardon? MR. B. P. STRICKLAND (Harniota): You're tough this morning. MR. PAULLEY: Well, the Honourable Member for Ham iota, Mr. Chairman, says that I am tough this morning. It may be as the result of being·here only a few hours ago dealing with another department, and it may be that as a result of loss of sleep I may feel or sound just a little tough.

But I want to assure my honourable friend from Harniota that I would basically say the sam e thing at 9: 30 this evening on the same problem respe cting the people of Manitoba - the local taxpayer - and possi bly between the present time and 9: 30 this evening I may have got 40 winks that might have mellowed me slightly, but I assure my honourable friend that the subject matter and my approach to it would not have changed.

I say to the Honourable the Minister of Public Works , I think it would have done him far morego od to have been with me listening to Tornrny last night than it was for the members here listening to him. However, Mr. Chairman, all kidding aside, I reiterate that no compli ments can be paid to the Government of Manitoba in respect of the treatment of the local tax payer, and I say without equivocation that there is a dereliction of responsibility being showed by the Government of Manitoba respecting the taxpayer at the local level . The Minister, Mr.

Chairman, was kind enough to place on our desks, or have placed on our desks thisrnorning a copy of a dem and for tax statements. When one looks at the state ment it does seem as though it •s a very attractive document and I think by and large that it

April 30th, 1965 2055 (MR. PAULLEY cont• d. ) ..... . will assist the municipality, but I ask my honourable friend whether or not there is an error on the statement or whether the government retracts what I thought was a public announcement respecting the period of rebatement in respect of the school tax, because the statement of demand for taxes which we have before us says -- or it is worded in the last line of the statement that "no rebate unless taxes are paid by December 31 st.

" It is my understanding that after considerable discus sions that the government had changed its opinion and that it would pay the school rebates when the school taxes are paid if they happen to be in arrears . But, Mr. Chairman, the statement doesn't say that at all. The statement says that no rebate unless taxes paid by December 31 st.

Now the Minister might have a technical out because there is no year following the words "December 31s t", so I suppose a Philadelphia lawyer could work this out and say, "Well if they're paid by the year 1965 providing the property hasn •t been sold for taxes it would be quite in order. " But, Mr. Chairman, I don't know what a Philadelphia lawyer or a Manitobala wyer would make of a thing like this, but I'm sure that it will have an effect on the local taxpayer who may not be in a position to. pay his taxes by December 31 st in the current year.

I want the Minister to explain to me exactly what this means, because this tax statement, Mr. Chairman, is going to go of course to all of the taxpayers in the local municipalities that do use this form , and I fear that this might be misconstrued - or I may be even wrong as I am quite frequently- but I may even be wrong in thinking that the government did make an an nouncement to the effect that the school that the school rebate would be paid on taxes in arrears and not in the current year only.

So I suggest to the Honourable the Minister of Municipal Affairs if this is so, then there should be some clarification of that on the statement, or that instruction should be given to the municipal corporations accordingly and which said informa tion would be given to those people who may find that it's not possible to pay up their taxes in the current year. There is one other comme nt I would like to make, Mr. Chairman, in respect of the document. In the form that is to be sent back to this government, the claim for rebate, I note that there's a provision on there for social insurance number.

Now I want to ask the Minister if he would kindly explain what in the name of goodness has one's social insurance number got to do with the question of sc hool tax rebate. Is there some hidden or ulterior motive behind this that's only known to the government, or what? Mr. Chairman, everybody has not as yet received a so cial insurance number . I want to ask my honourable friend if those people who have not as yet been registered and received a social insurance number are going to be de prived of the school rebate of the Government of Manitoba. My honourable friend says •no•.

Having said •no •, I do want to know from him what is the connection insofar as the social insurance number with the rebate application form . I do suggest, Mr. Chairman, that there is one level of government that will be happy with the plan or the method of rebating the school tax and that is the federal treasury, and particularly the Postmaster- General •s department, because in most cases they will receive an additional 10 cents insofar as the municipal government or the local taxpayer and the Provincial Government is concerned here in the Province of Manitoba.

The Honourable the Minister of Municipal Affairs was very proud, on the introduction of his Estimates, to tell us that the processing of some of these documents amounted to about 11 cents, I believe, a person. I think, Mr. Chairman, he should use the figure of 21 cents because while they may only cost 11 cents, then with the backwards and forwards, the treasury of the federal authorities will be increased generally by two five cent stamps, which of course is absolutely unnecessa ry that this method would have to be used or should be used by the Government of Manitoba.

I think that - and I agree with the Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie - a simpler method, a more economical method would have been done by the rebate being awarded at the local level on payment of taxes, and if perchance the Honourable the Minister of Municipal Affairs or the Provincial Treasurer wanted to be assured of receiving credit for it, little cards could have been printed at less cost of mailing and with a picture of the Minister of .Municipal Affairs or the Provincial Treasurer, the Premier, something similar to what is done in re spect of the Department of Health or the Manitoba Hospital Service Ass ociation .

"We are giving you back with our complim ents in the year 1965 this sum of $50. 00. " You will note on the card the picture of the Provincial Treasurer, our Duff, who exten:is to you his blessi ngs. Now I think this would have been far cheaper, Mr. Chairman, to have done this than to enhance the treasury of the federal authority by an additional l 0 cent cost.

2056 April 30th, 1965 (MR. PAULLEY cont• d. ) Now, I think,' Mr. Chairman, that might do for the present.

I may have had a few more comm ents to make in respect of the Department of Municipal Affairs had I had more sleep, but under the circumstances poss ibly the Minister of Municipal Affairs will take for his con sideration the main points that I think I have raised, !hat the Goverment of Manitoba is surely abdicating its responsibility; that the municipal councils of Manitoba, despite some minor readjustments in costs, are still having to assess ever greater charges by and large in Mani toba on local government and on the local taxpayer in the respective communities . This is unjust ; it is unfair . MR.

BARKMAN: Mr . Chairman, I will also try to stick as close to the rules as the last two speakers did and poss ibly a little closer, but I would feel guilty if I did not get up and also pay tribute to some of the people working in the municipal department. The last couple of years espec ially form the Town of Steinbach we have had a new assessme nt down there and they were a wonderful group of fellows and we enjoyed having them down there. And also I cannot speak of experience as well as the former Mayor of Transcona or the Honourable Leader of the N.DP Party but I am sure that many in this.

House could spend many hours of reminiscing as far as the former Deputy . Minister Mr. Fisher is concerned but I can certainly go on record .in paying tribute to the present Deputy Minister. It has amazed me at times the kind of sincerity .and loyalty he puts into his job. Just the other day I came up with a little problem and I thought that possibly I couldn •t handle it as well as I ought to in my home council and, sure e1;1ough, I went up to him and he says, well he says, maybe let me go out there. I 'm sure that this was not part of his

schedule and he did this at the later part of the evening -- ran out to Steinbach and helped with this problem and this is certainly appreciated.

I'm glad that the. issue was brought up concerning this tax notice and I shall not repeat what the Leader of the NDP Party has said but I do wish that we will get an answer on this and I wonder what the intention of the department is going to be concerning this; poss ibly a misp rint or possibly printed too early, I don•t .know, but it's certainly going to create - could create -- some controversial effects as. far as part of this notice is concerned when it says that "no rebate unless tax is paid by December 31 st" because I noticed also at the Union of Manitoba Municipalities that this was one of the questions: please elaborate on refund of sc hool tax.

I gather from the Minister 's rem arks yesterday that the 1965 taxes must be paid by December 31s t, '65. Would this mean that all arrears would have to be paid by December 31 st, '65 as well, and of course the answer goes on to say and suggest that it will and, as we know, till the change of attitude come about this was so, but I'm sure the Minister hasn •t ,had a chance to reply so poss ibly all I should do at this time is -- I hope we have a reply in this regard and I hope, while I hate to see the expense incurred, I hope that this is not the final tax notice.

In my municipality we have not received them but I understand some municipali ties have already, so I don't know what the solution is . One thing I thought I would bring up was the handling, or poss ibly at the time when our new Canadian flag was to be announced on the 15 th of February I was kind of disappointed in this department that so little information or notice was given to the municipalities. Now I'm not aware -- poss ibly you people never received any notice from the Federal Government.

I wouldn't know the answer to this but even then if you had received -- I think there was some talk that you had not received any information to the lO th or so -- even then I think it would have been quite proper and quite in order to poss ibly phone these municipalities or som ething, because I know in my own municipality we were up against quite a program, or discuss ion I should say, because there were quite a few groups, public groups , and of course the school boards, wondering what they should do.

We finally did go ahead and had our own pamphlets printed and I also read the proclamation of the Premier at that time but we weren •t just too sure if we were poss ibly doing something we ought not to do. That's the way the feeling seemed to appear, although I understand at this time and with that introduction of the proposed bill this morning, I guess it's well on the way of having itself cured. I'd like to say a few words in regards to added expense to the municipalities.

I'm sure that we co uld stand here for hours and talk about some of these matters and I 'm sure that the Honourable Minister is concerned with it but it seem s, just like the Honourable Member for Ethelbert Plains mentioned last night, that we are loading the municipalities from one side and the other side and the load just seem s to be gettinga little bit too heavy. You take, just as of the last year the assessme nt charges will have to be 100 percent paid by the municipal ities . Another one added; the auditing was just added a year or two ago and this seem s to keep

Apri l 30th, 1965 2057 (M,R, 13,f>RKMAN cont.'d. )_ on increasing and I'm Sl.\re we 'll have to do S\)mething about,it. The solutioi! I don •t knoyv, but I was happy that at least the per capita grant was not taken off this year and I am s11re. that things lik,e these are part of this 'imswerbut I do hope we will be careful and try to hold ba�k inst�ad of encouraging more of these thi�gs . Possibly so�e of the other articles that I would.l ike to bring up I ·should bring them up as we go down the line. MR.

SMELLIE: Mr� C.h�irman, perhaps it might be convenient if at this time I try to answer S'?nie of the questions that have been raised by .honourable members in this debate. First of all I•m sorry that the Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie is not in his chair at the momellt because, som.e ofthe remarks that he made were quite pertinent to the proplem s that face the, department. Oh, . here he is now.

He is quite correct when lie says that there are some municipalities that.have not had a reas sessme nt since they were first done in about 1952, and he is also quite correct when he says that this situation must be improved, Thi� is one of the first problems that came to my attentio� when I assumed responsibility for this department and we have been doing what we can to increase the number of assesso rs..

We have recently introduced a neyv class ification for assesso rs that will allow. us to take people who are not graduates in agriculture and use them for assesl?ments in urban areas where they ;rearly don 't need this qualification. It will .still be necess ary for most of our asse sso rs to be graduate's in agriCulture in order to do a proper assessm ent in the rural municipalities, but we ;u::e qoing what we can to eliminate costs and to provide additional service so that re aSSI')SSrnents canbe completed much more quickly than they have been in the past.

This is not only the .recomm endati()I! of the Michener Commiss ion but also recently of the J14unicipal Advisory Comm ittee who were studying the effect of the increase in assessm ent on mim!cipal costs .. . · . . · · . The Honourable Member from Portage is also quite correct when he says that we have 9ot to consider area planning.

The problem of the existing junk,yard is not going to be overcome ·· by planning pecailse it is in existing use, over which apparently there was no controi at the time that it became established, and the fact that you introduce land use controls will not re move any existing use because you don't have that power by planning, but the honourable mem ber fs quite co:r:rect that the problem is a growing one, and unless we have area planning so that ciur urban commimities, and the rural communities surrounding them, take a joint ap� proachto the control of matters such as this we 're never going to solve the problem , and at tempts are being made to 'assist municipalities to co-operate in such planning ventures.

It is our hope that with the establishment of planning offices in different sections of the province th�t we will be ablE) to .extend this area of the work even farther than we have in the past. The honourable member raised a question of standard plans for such things as housing, for elderly persons housing, anci. so on.

I think that perhaps this matter might be more prop erly raised in the estimates of the Department of Welfare, although I recognize it is a problem for municipalities as weli as service clubs and this sort of thing, .and it's quite possible that some savings in costs in this matt!:)r could be achieved . . . . The question of tax concessio ns for industry is one over which there was little control until about 1958 . . In 1958, .

Section 445 of the Act provided that a municipality can no longer give such tax concess ions to industry without first of all having a favourable vote of the ratepayers and then that such tax concession can only last for a period of 10 years . I think that probably the matters th at my honourable friend refers to are the matter of the Campbell Soup plant at Portage ia Prairie or a similar situation with Imperial Oil in East St.

Paul, but both of these' sl.tuations were pro�rided by Acts of this Legislature prior to the Act of 1958. · A question of policing costs i.s one that has perplexed the Attorney-General for some . time arid I understand that he is now in the process of negotiating a new agreement with the .

Royal Canadian MoU:nteci J>6li�e. concerning the policing of the Province of Manitoba, and. the pro]Jlemthat the Honourabtil Me1nber for Portage raises is .one of those that I 1m certain will 'be ctisc�ssed in those talks . · .. · ' · · The question of legislati6n with regard to the term "parcel " - there will be an ame!ld.:. · · meilt introdu�ed �·I thought it '�ould have been here by ri�w: to The Revenue Act which will l.nake c,e;tain changes ,.i,n tht;l definition of "parcel 11 to r�ake certain thaf such things as pipe- . 'imef �nq t ail�aypr� perties, knd so on are treated adequ�tely.

Hciyvever, asfar as the gent;l:rai :field of legisl ation, ' we ive b�en iooking . at a new defillition of t4e word. ''parcel 11 for as sess :.. me�t·��rp�s e'� ii:{ Th�.!Yiu�icir,alAct . It 's a rather coniplicatedproe �d\l�e and as of yesterd�y I �nst'ruch)d the dep.��tmep{ tof6rget it. for th�s sess iOJ,1 because . every tim�. we eame up w,ith ·. ·>�1;i�� ?t. � e r�oU�hJ�v�.[�d:'the �itu�tion S()niebody el�e''would �iye us} ,sit��ti@·�� .w 'hi,ch

2058 April 30th, 1965 (MR. SMELLIE cont• d. ) .. ... we would be in more trouble than we were before, so that we think that perhaps we would be better to leave this particular matter until we •ve had more time for contemplation and not create more headaches than we solve . The honourable member suggested that perhaps there were only 30 or 40 percent of the municipalities that appreciated the new tax statements. I would have to argue with him on this point because ..... . MR. JOHNSTON: Correction, I meant the school tax rebate system that's .... . MR.

SMELLIE: Oh, I see, Well l'm not really prepared to debate that question with him. He suggested that the municipalities should be allowed to make the deduction of school tax rebate at the time that the taxes are paid. This is the system that's in vogue in the system used in British Columbia. The Minister of Municipal Mfairs and the Deputy Minister in that province both said that there are certain disadvantages to that system, that they would not recommend that we should. follow.

The Minister has indicated to me that if he had to bring in the legisla tion over again they would use a system similar to the one that we have proposed in Manitoba. The Honourable Leader of the New Dem ocratic Party made quite a point of the fact that in his opinion there has been a fpilure to reduce the costs to municipalities for services to people. This is a debatable point certainly.

We believe that under the system introduced last summer that the province has assumed an additional approximately $20 million of costs for services in the areas of municipalities, including the school tax rebates, the additional assi stance on roads and all of the other things that went into that program . This is a rather substantial shift in the tax burden from the local taxpayer to the provincial taxpayer and I don 1t think it's correct to say that the province has made no effort to shift the burden.

At the same time, when you stop and consider how this might be done, we spent weeks in discuss ion with municipal and school people last summer, after the Michener report had been received, to see if there were some way in which we could, by increasing grants to schools or to muni cipalities, achieve a reduction in taxes that would be felt by the local taxpayer.

And every time we came to this problem we came back to the point where we had to agree with both the municipal people and the school trustees that the controls that are now imposed are about the maximum that you could consider impos ing by the province and still leave any kind of autonomy to local government; that if you impose controls from the top that you put them in a straight jacket and that they cannot properly operate. We also had to agree with the people with whom we had the discuss ions that both the municipal people and the school trustees in this province have done a rem arkably fine job.

There are some areas where I think som e improvements might be made, particularly in the communications between school authorities and municipal authorities in the preparation of budgets . We have undertaken to have a good careful look at this sort of thing in the coming months. MunicipalitieE>, generally speaking, feel that the schools dictate to them what their budgets will be because they receive a budget in final form from a school district or a school division and the municipality have a responsibility not only to levy for this amount of money but to pay it, whether they collect it or not.

And I think a lot of credit must come to the muni cipal people of the province who for years have taken every means poss ible, by reducing their own expenditures, to hold the line on mill rates. I don •t think it •s either practical or possi ble to impose a ceiling on them so that they cannot increase their expenditures now because they have built-in esca lators in costs just the same as other levels of government here.

The costs of the help that the municipalities have will continue to go up as wages go up and as the cost of living goes up, and there are other matters of this nature that will tend to increase the cost of both schools and municipalities, and I don •t think that it would be possible to work out any practical system of controls that would make certain that additional grants now would be re flected in reduction in taxation.

This, of course, is the reason for the direct refund of part of sc hool costs to the taxpayer in an attempt that the taxpayer shall see that there is an attempt being made by the province to alleviate the tax burden on real property.

The Honourable Leader of the NDP raised the question of the statement which appears on the tax statement that no rebates will be paid unless taxes are paid by December 31st, and the only answer I can give him is that these forms were all printed before there was any change in policy and, in fact, some of them were sent out to the municipalities and distributed to the tax payers before we realized that the forms had not been changed and that the change in policy had been announced.

Approximately 25 percent of the municipalities of the province sent in resolutions requesting that there be no time limit on the payment of taxes if school tax rebates were to be paid, and the Premier announced, or the Provincial Treasurer, during his estimates,

April 30th, 1965 2059 (MR. SMELLIE cont'd. ) ... that we had removed this requirement at the request of the muni cipal people. School tax rebates will nowbe paid on 1965 school taxes whenever those taxes are paid to the municipality. Somebody says, "Say it again. 11 If you want it underlined, school tax rebates will be paid for 1965 school taxes whenever they are paid to the municipality. The statement which is on the form has not been changed for the ones that are being sent out now because it would be a rather difficult problem to go over all of the forms which were ap proved.

The form that you have before you is the standard form that is being used by municipal ities for whom the province has prepared the statement. in. dem and for taxes . In addition to these, there were quite a number of municipalities who had other forms approved for a variety of reasons. In some municipalities they had, for example, so many local improvement dis tricts that they couldn •t fit them in to this type of form . There were other municipalities who wished to have bilingual forms and this sort of thing, so they have had other forms approved for their own purposes.

There were many who were using some form of machine accounting and had special forms for their own machines and they have been approved. But in every case this same wording was used . Now, these municipalities also had had their printing done be fore there was any change in policy and so it was determined that the forms would be allowed to go out in the form in which they were originally printed for this year, and we hope that by next year the form will be changed to comply with present policy. The Honourable Leader of the NDP also asked the question about the little square for a social insurance number.

This is put in for the convenience of people in some areas where there is a great difficulty in distinguishing between different property owners . For example, near Steinbach and down in the municipalities of Stanley and Rhineland and so on, you get very many people with the same name and the same initials and if it •s any convenience to them to add their soc ial insurance number to make sure that they get their own cheques and that their neighbour doesn't get them . For example we get John J. Reimer and we get J. J. Reimer and we get J.

Jacob Reimer and so on, all listed in the phone book and we have the same trouble with Penners and Friesens and numerous other people -- (Interjection)-- and Barkmans, yes . And Smiths, Mr. Premier. We have a little trouble with Smiths in Rome places . If they wish to identify themselves by putting in their social insurance number they In ay do so. It will assist us to keep track of the individual owners if they care to put this in. If they don •t put it in it doesn't make any difference and there are many people, including myself, who don't have one, as yet. True.

I was very pleased to hear the Honourable Member for Carillon give ac ompliment to the Asses sment Branc.h of the department because the poor assesso rs get brickbats from every body in the country but it's not very often they receive compliments . They're a hard-working crew; they do an earnest and conscientious job and I was really pleased to hear him compliment them because it's not very often they do get a compliment and I feel that they richly deserve it be cause they have tried hard to be fair and honest in their assessme nt of property.

On the question of the new flag, of course the province had very little notice of the date on which the new flag was going to be used. New flags were also in short supply and.a s soon as we knew on which date the cerem ony was going to be held we drafted a notice to the muni cipalities setting out the fact that this was Canada's flag and that it should be flown on public buildings and so on, and that if they could acquire such flags that they should use them . Per haps we should have given earlier notice but I don •t really know how this could have been done very much earlier than it was .

The added expense of assessme nt in particular, to municipal ities, was one of those things that was recomm ended by the Michener Commiss ion and of course this was the reason why we reconstituted the Municipal Advisory Committee at this particular tim e, was so we knew there was going to be an increase in cost to the municipalities without any change in the assessme nt program .

We also knew that Michener had recomm ended a considerable stepping up of the assessme nt process which was going to involve a further ad ditional increase in cost to municipalities and so we asked the municipal people to come and study the problem and to advise us as to how fast they wanted us to proceed with this program . After studying the problem that was involved the comm ittee were unanimous in their recom mendation to us that we should proceed with all haste, . in spite of the increased cost to the municipalities, because this is an increasing problem in many areas .

So that, although it is an increased burden to municipalities, I think the municipal people who have made any study of the matter have accepted this fact and are prepared to pay this additional cost in order to have the service that they know is essential. I think that pretty well covers, Mr. Chairman, the questions that have been asked so far.

2060 April 30th, 1965 MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Chairman, I was very interested in hearing the replies of the Honourable the Minister of Municipal Affairs . I agree with him mo st heartily, the statement that he made dealing with the method or division of responsibility of taxation in regard to services to people and he stated that it was a debatable question and I wholeheartily agree with him, it is debatable, and I wouldn't mind debating it with my honourable friend or any other at any given time because of the fact that there's a lot of different opinions.

I would sug gest to him though that if he were to debate this question that he may shift his tactics slightly because he said that the province assumed added responsibility by the school rebate indicating that, as a result of the special sess ion of last year and the passing under The Revenue Act this basis of rebate directly to local taxpayers, that they would be relieved to a considerable de gree of their tax burden and in this the provincial government was adding to its responsibility insofar as local taxation is concerned. It's not my purpose at this time, Mr.

Chairman, to continue the debate on the question of the utility taxes , but I merely want to point out to the Honourable the Minister of Municipal Affairs that while it may be true on the surface that some relief was given by virtue of the school rebate directly to the local taxpayer, at the same time that this was being done the cost of the school rebate was by and large being assumed by the very same people in respect of utility taxes.

The Honourable the Provincial Treasurer shakes his head, and he •s shaken it quite a bit lately, and sometimes I fear that he may require the services of the Honourable the Minister of Labour in his capacity of a chiropractor to get it back on the beam . MR. ROBLIN: He 's pretty good too. MR.

PAULLEY: Yes he is; !le fixed me up the other week when I had a sore back and I appreciated it very much and maybe I hadn •t better carry this too far in the presence of the Honourable the Minister of Education because I don •t want any further divisions because of this among the Cabinet of the First Minister and I'm sure there's plenty of divisions insofar as policy is concerned and if there isn •t divisions then Lord help Manitoba. But again I re-emphsize, Mr.

Chairman, that while in some measure the government of Manitoba might be able to say as the result of their school rebate added responsibility was taken over by the Provincial Treasury and lifted from the local taxpayer, des pite the nodding of my honourable friend 1s head I still insist, and I •m sure it can be proven, that while the burden might have been shifted from the tax roll it was added back on by the bills that the very same people received in respect of their utilities.

One thing however, the· Minister of Municipal Affairs was very complim entary to the municipal men and the school trustees of the province. I join in this and I think, Mr.

Chairman, that all of us should give thanks to our municipal men because the Honourable Minister of Muni cipal Affairs said, in respect of the deadline of December 31s t for the rebate, that it was be cause of representations made to him by the municipal men -- I think he said about 25 percent or som ething like that -- that the municipal men pointed out to the government the inequity of the previous arrangement of the cut-off date of December 31 st. So I would say I jo in with the Minister in a complim ent to the municipal men.

In this case, as in many others, they showed far more wisdom than the Government of Manitoba made evident with their original ...... . MR. SMELl. IE: Before my honourable friend gets too carried away on this point I should advise him that since the policy has been changed we have had quite a few representations on exactly the opposite point. In fact, I have been severely chastised by some municipalities for the fact that we have . taken this requirement away and that municipalities do not now have this added incentive to have taxes paid in the current year.

One reeve who didn •t know that there was any change in policy came in the other day and complim ented us on having held the line and informed me that the tax arrears in his municipality had decreased by approximately $100, 000, or nearly 50 percent, in the last few months as compared with this period of last year, and he thought it was a wonderful policy. So that I rather expect there may be some debate on the matter at me etings of municipal people this summer. MR. PAULLE Y: Then I would suggest, Mr.

Chairman, that if this is the case then the reeve or the mayor that the Honourable the Minister of Municipal Affairs is referring to, that said to those people' who cannot afford within the current year to pay their taxes that they won't getthe rebate, i would suggest that that reeve t�ll the people in their respective comm,unities, if there's' mo re thah one, that they don 1t want the people who can •t 'afford to pay within the cur rent year the'ir tax' bill, to get the rebate. I doubt very much, Mr.

Chairman, :whether the individual would be a reeve or 'a mayor much longer, at least not after the next local election. _ Ont; other question. I did ask the Honourable the � inister -- he didn •t answer it I don •t

April 30th, 1965 2061 (MR. PAUL LEY cont'd. ) recall -- dealing with the question of the added costs of the rebate and my friend to my right, the Member for Ethelbert Plains said to me, "By gosh, Russ, you may be out in saying that it's only going to be a 5 cent stamp to send in the request for the rebate and a 5 cent stamp coming back. What if the government decides to make se cure the rebate, which I presume would be by cheque, by having the return sent by registered mail, '' and I still haven •t heard from the Honourable the Municipal Treasurer any comm ent on this added cost. MR.

MOLGAT: Perso nal delivery by the MLAs. MR. PAULLEY: Is that what -- well maybe the Leader of the Opposition has got a very good idea, Mr. Chairman, that the government should give us representatives the cheques, that we would go round knocking at doors, and I think 1 could assure the Honourable Minister of Municipal Affairs we wouldn •t have to know their social security number in order to find them . We 'd find them all right. Just on that point, the Minister said that they were using the social security name to differentiate between names that are sim ilar or with similar ini tials.

Would not the descri ption of the property give the same information? Because I don't imagine they all live on the same property and if they do they wouldn't be entitled to any more than one cheque rebate that they'd have to divide among themse lves in any case. Now I under stand, Mr. Chairman, we quit at 11: 30. I may have one or two comm ents further a little later on. I think for the time being we will take our seat. MR. ROBL IN: I move the Comm ittee rise, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: Call in the Speaker. IN SES SION MR.

CHAIRMAN: Madam Speaker, the Comm ittee of Supply wish to report progress and ask leave to sit again. MR. CO W AN : Madam Speaker, I move, seco nded by the Honourable Member for Pembina that the report of the Committee be received . MADAM SPEA KER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR. ROBLIN: Madam Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Minister of Municipal Affairs that the House do now adjourn. MADAM SPE AKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried and the House adjourned until 2: 30 Friday afternoon.

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	27-4-80
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	27th 4th hansardpdf 80.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	9f69f112292c173eefe2dff507323409da59f0a0

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