Manitoba Hansard — 7 October 1988 (Sitting 53, 34th Legislature, 1st Session)

34-1-53

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

MG-8048 First Session - Thirty-Fourth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS {HANSARD) 37 Elizabeth 11 Published under the authority of The Honourable Denis C. Rocan Speaker VOL. XXXVII No. 53- 10 a.m., FRIDAY, OCTOBER 7, 1988. Printed by the Office of the Queens Printer. Province of Manitoba ISSN 0542-5492

NAME ALCOCK, Reg ANGUS, John ASHTON, Steve BURRELL, Parker CARR, James CARSTAIRS, Sharon CHARLES, Gwen CHEEMA, Gulzar CHORNOP YSKI, William CONNERY, Edward Hon. COWAN, Jay CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. DOER, Gary DOWNEY, James Hon. DRIEDGER, Albert, Hon. DRIEDGER, Herold, L. DUCHARME, Gerald, Hon. EDWARDS, Paul ENNS, Harry ERNST, Jim, Hon. EVANS, Laurie EVANS, Leonard FILMON, Gary, Hon. FINDLAY, Glen Hon. GAUDRY, Neil GILLESHAMMER, Harold GRAY, Avis HAMMOND, Gerrie HARAPIAK, Harry HARPER, Elijah HELWE R, Edward R. HEMPHILL, Maureen KOZAK, Richard, J. LAMOUREUX, Kevin, M.

MALOWAY, Jim MANDRAKE, Ed MANNESS, Clayton, Hon. McCRAE, James Hon. MINENKO, Mark MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Fourth Legislature Members, Constituencies and Political Affiliation CONST ITUENCY Os borne St. Norbert Thompson Swan River Fort Rouge River Heights Selkirk Kildonan Burrows Portage la Prairie Churchill Ste. Rose du Lac Roblin-Russell Concordia Arthur Emerson Niakwa Aiel St. James Lakeside Charleswood Fort Garry Brandon East Tuxedo Virden St.

Boniface Minnedosa Ellice Kirkfield Park The Pas Rupertsland Gimli Logan Transcona lnkster Elm wood Assiniboia Morris Brandon West Seven Oaks MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. River East NEUFE LD, Harold, Hon. Rossmere OLESON, Charlotte Hon. Glad stone ORCHARD, Donald Hon. Pembina PANKRATZ, Helmut La Verendrye PATTERSON, Allan Radisson PENNER, Jack, Hon. Rhineland PLOHMAN, John Dauphin PRAZNIK, Darren Lac du Bonnet ROCAN, Denis, Hon. Turtle Mountain ROCH, Gilles Springfield ROSE, Bob St. Vital STORIE, Jerry Flin Flon TAYLOR, Harold Wolseley URUS KI, Bill lnterlake WASYLYCIA-LEIS, Judy St.

Johns YEO, lva Sturgeon Creek PARTY LIBERAL LIBERAL NDP PC LIBERAL LIBERAL LIBERAL LIBERAL LIBERAL PC NDP PC PC NDP PC PC LIBERAL PC LIBERAL PC PC LIBERAL NDP PC PC LIBERAL PC LIBERAL PC NDP NDP PC NDP LIBERAL LIBERAL NDP LIBERAL PC PC LIBERAL PC PC PC PC PC LIBERAL PC NDP PC PC LIBERAL LIBERAL NDP LIBERAL NDP NDP LIBERAL

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Friday, October 7, 1988. The House met at 10 a.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES Mr. Helmut Pankratz (La Verendrye): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the Fi rst Report of the Committee on Statutory Regulations and Orders. Mr. Clerk, William Remnant: Your Standing Committee on Statutory Regulations and Orders, your committee met on Thursday, October 6, 1988, at 10 a.m. in Room 255 of the Legislative building. Your committee elected Mr. H. Pankratz as Chairman. Your commit tee heard representa tions on Bills as follows: Bill (No. 1) - The Court of Queen's Bench Act;

Loi sur la Cour du Banc de la Rei ne. Dr. Jay Brolund -Vice-President of the Psychological · Association of Manitoba. Your committee considered: Bill (No. 4) - The Re-enacted Statutes of Manitoba, 1988, Act;

Loi sur les Lois readoptees du Manitoba de 1988. Bill (No . 5) - The Statute Re-enactment Act, 1988; Loi de 1988 sur la readoption de lois. 1 And has ag reed to report the same without amendments. Your committee has also consid ered: Bill (No. 10) - The Court of Queen's Bench Act; Lois sur la Cour du Banc de la Reine And has ag reed to report the same with certa in amendments all of which is respectfu lly subm itted. *

(1005) Mr. Helmut Pankratz (La Verendrye): I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Brandon West (Mr. McCrae), that the report of the committee be received . MOTION presented and carried. MINISTERI AL STATEMENTS AND TABLING OF REPORTS Hon. James McCrae (Attorney-General): I am pleased to present the final report of the Commission of Inquir y into Gasoline Pricing in Manitoba. INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS Mr. Speaker: Prior to oral questions, may I direct Honourable Members' attention to the galler y, where we have from the Bernie Wolfe School, 27 Grade 6 students under the direction of Mrs. Stara Gooljarsingh.

This school is located in the constituenc y of the Honourable Member for Radisson (Mr. Patterson). On behalf of all Honourable Members, I welcome you here this morning. Seeing as how it is Frid ay, do you want to call it 12 :30 p.m. now? ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Home Care System Funding Cuts Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Opposition): Statistics show, Mr. Speaker, that our seniors population is growing in number and that Government programs and services must reflect that trend.

Fortunately, many will be able to look after themselves, and others will not. lt is indeed alarming, and I am sure many seniors woke today feeling very uncomfortable at a Government which should be recognizing their needs, and instead here is the announcement of a Health Minister (Mr. Orchard) who is threatening to di smantle a program that has enabled thousands of our seniors to live in di gnit y.

Can the Minister of Health please tell this House the meaning of his statement: "The program was never designed to create depen dence." Does he not understand that certain chronic ail ments do not get better, and is he prepared to doom these people in this province to a life in an instituti on? Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): I am very delig hted that the Leader of the Opposition (Mrs. Carstairs) would ask some questi ons. Furthermor e, Mr. Speaker, I am looking forward to the Estima tes process where we can discuss the Home Care Program and its dir ection.

I am not very pleased with a headline which indicates, "Disabled to pay for home care, " which is not a correct statement. lt is not a correct direction that came out of the Price Waterhouse report, or the press conference yesterd ay. However, as happens from time to time, one cannot have anything to do with that. This Government has increased the Home Care bud get by 23 percent. lt is now at $43.7 mil lion per 1980

Friday, October 7, 1988 year. That Home Care Program will provide to senior citizens needed medical servi ces as it has always done. That Home Care Program will continue to provide to senior citizens needed homemaking servi ces but it wi ll also allow, as ha s been the case since the inception of the program, reinforced by the NDP in 1985 when they app roved a commun ity supp ort program for seniors which would enhance the availabil ity of not for-profit homemaking services throughout Manitoba. Mr. Speaker, the objective of that was to carry on with the original program mandate.

Where non-profit home cleaning services are available, the Government will back out of those and they will be provided in the commun ity by non-profit home care service. No Manitoban will be cut off from home care, as the Leader of the Opposition so wishes. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. *

(1010) Housekeeping Services Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Opposition): With a supp lementary question to the Minis ter, and he might be interested to know that my quote came from his press release, not from an

article in the paper. Can this Minister tell this House how no one in need is going to suffer under this new initia tive that he has announced when he has informed seniors that they will no longer be provided with ho usekeep ing services, services which many chronic patient s need in order to stay in their homes, and they are on fixed incomes and they cannot otherwise afford it? Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): Let me attempt to be perfectly clear with my honourable friend, the Leader of the Opposition (Mrs. Carstai rs).

There has never been the intent of the Home Care Program and I want to tell my honourable friend that the Home Care Program provides servi ces to several distinct groups of Manitobans, some of whom are seni ors, in fact, the majority of whom are seniors. Those seniors who are chronic requirers of care will continue to receive that care. But the Home Care Program also provides services to seniors who are ill, who are discharged from hospital, and need services until they regain their health. That is what Home Care will provide, has provided and will continue to provide under a $43.7 million bud get.

But when a senior or any Manitoban discharged from hospital or recovering from ill ness is well enough to look after their home-keeping need s, natur ally Government is not going to continue to provide that service. lt was never intended that be the case, and I would hope that the Leader of the Opposition (Mr s. Carstairs) has not suggested we create that kind of depende nce of seniors on Government. Mr. Speaker: Order, please; order, please. Funding Cuts Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Opposition): Mr. Speaker, the Health Minister (Mr.

Orchard) stated that management was so lax he did not know how many people would be affected by the cut. How can a Minis ter of the Crown, responsibl e for good physical and mental health, announce cuts if he does not know how many will be cut or how their health will be affected? How does he explain this derelic tion of duty for the Minis ter of Health for the Province of Manitoba? Hon. Donald Orchard (Minis ter of Health): Mr. Speaker, with all the patience I can muster, no one will be cut from services of the Home Care Program.

The bud get provides for conti nuing home care where needed by se nior citi zens, where so assessed by the Department of Conti nuing Care in the regions, in the City of Winnipeg. What I ind icated is, as homemaker services is non-profit, as has always been the case, as was reinforced in 1985 by the NDP, where those services become availabl e in the community, I cannot te ll my honourable friend how many people will access, not for profit home-cleaning services because we simply do not have those numbers. That is not a function of management.

That is a function of not knowing how many people will be able to access that service when available in the community. Clearly, not everyone can afford to have their homemaking services removed, and will not be. 1981 Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The Honourable Leader of the Opposition, with a new questi on. Mrs. Carstairs: Mr. Speaker, with a new question to the Minis ter of Health (Mr. Orchard), every major stu dy in the health care field conducted in the last 10 years has stressed the need to move away from a hospital insti tutional model of health care del ivery in order to get costs under control.

Inherent in that policy is the need for more community services to provide for the individual who has been discharged early from hospital , the patient returning from day surgery and/or the chronic patient who, only with help, can remain in his or her home. Will the Min ister of Health tell this House how this Government intends to mo ve to a more communit y based model of health care del ivery if he intends to cap the funds for continuing care? Mr. Orchard: Mr. Speaker, I have two sugge stions for my honourable friend, the Leader of the Opposition (Mr s. Carstairs).

First of all, read the Price Waterhouse Report so she is more informed instead of ill-informed. Secondly, with a 23 percent budget increase, services to the se niors who need home care services will continue. The chronic care need senior citizens and others who requir e home care on a continuo us basis will continue to receive that. There is no cutback by this Government. There is no cutback in that regard under the program. If the Leader of the Opposition is alleging that needed home care services are being cut back, she is absolutely incorrect.

Friday, October 7, 1988 Seniors' Housing New Facilities Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Opposition): Mr. Speaker, with a suppl ementary question to the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard), if this Government is unwil ling to provide services to physically and mentally dis abled seniors with limi ted incomes, services which enabl e them to rem ai n in their homes, will this Government begin immedia tely to build more senior citi zens' residenc es and personal care homes where these services can be accessed, si nce they are not going to be accessed in the com munity. * (10 15 ) Hon.

Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): Again, with as much patience as I can muster, maybe the Li beral vision of Home Care is to cut seniors off the program. Maybe that is where the Li beral Party wants to go. But as I have repeated for two weeks consistently in this House, $43.7 mill ion of funding has been allocated by this Government, to provide home care services to those Manitobans in need.

Whether they be seniors or citizens discharged early from hospital, whether they be chronic care seniors who need some support services in their home, those services will be provided with a $43.7 mill ion bud get by this Government to those in need. Home Care System Appeal Board Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Opposition): A final question to the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard). Sinc e I arrived in this Legislature, I have been asking the previous administration, and now I will ask this adminis tration.

Will the Minis ter of Health immedia tely establish an appeal board for those who receive continuing care services, an appeal board which now will become absolutely necessary, so they will have an avenue to approach if they are denied services or, if those services and the level of those services, quality is not maintained. Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): That is obviously one

section of the repor t that the Li beral Leader (Mr s. Carstai rs) has read correctly. The appeal process has been unknown in many cases to those clients on the program. The appeal process and the recommendations to improve it are one of the initia tives in the Price Waterhous e Report that is already being undertaken so that (

a) citiz ens receiving Home Care are aware of their appeal process should they not be satisfied with either the level of the service or the di scontinuation of that service after they have regained their health and their abil ity to live independent ly. Mr. Speaker, that appeal process will be enhanced and it will be enhanced to enable Manitob ans to regain their independence because, if there is one thing I think most Manitobans, seniors inclu ded, wish to be, it is in dependent in their own home , inde pendent of Government, independent of outside influe nces.

They want to live to their greatest satisfact ion with their own means and we will assure that happens. Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Second Opposition): Mr. Speaker, I would like to com ment, fi rst of all, that the irony of this issue is that when we raised this issue a week ago, the Liberals totally got into the corner with Mr. Orchard in terms of his user fee policy. Now when the headli nes change, their policy changes on this very important item. My question is to the Fi rst Minister- Mr. Speaker: Order , ple ase. We do not refer to Mem bers by their name.

The Honourable Minister of Health, I believe, was what you were trying to say. Mr. Doer: Pardon? Mr. Speaker: We do not refer to Members by their name. Mr. Doer: The Minis ter of Health, yes. Right. An Honourable Member: Honourable. Mr. Doer: We will see about that. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Home Care System User Fees Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Second Opposition ): My question is to the First Minister (Mr. Filmon). Last week when we raised this question in the House, we were accused of creating an issue where it does not exist by the Min ister of Health (Mr.

Orchard), and we were accused of stating that the policy has not changed when clearly, in his embargoed, closed press conference yesterd ay, the policy is changing and the examples we cited in this House and indeed in writ ing to the Fi rst Min ister (Mr . Fil mon), the examples were clearly impl emented with a user fee in this province. Will the First Minister -(Interjection}-Well, if you do not consider $7 an hour for services which were formerly provided by a universal health care system not a user fee, the seniors of this province consider it a user fee. My question to the First Min ister (Mr.

Filmon)-not the Minis ter of Health (Mr . Orchard) , to the Fir st Minister -i s, will he immedia tely order his Minis ter of Health to halt the implementation of this new policy and have public consultations with the most affected groups, the seniors, the di sabled and others who rely on our home care system and indeed with the health care professionals who want to balance their budgets? Will the Fi rst Minister (Mr. Filmon) take control of his Health Min ister and have a fair set of public hearings on this issue? * (1 020) Hon.

Donald Orchar d (Minister of Health): That consultation process tha t the Leader of the New Democrats (Mr . Doer) is now calling for i s in process at this moment. lt was not in process in 1985 when the NDP and that Member-no, by golly, he was not there then, but his colleagues were there and they app roved incr eased fu nding through the suppor t 1982

Friday, October 7, 1988 programa for seniors to es tablish non-profit homemaking services thr oughout Mani toba. They funded it through Communit y Services with the specific policy intention that was always in pla ce. Where non profit homemaking services were availab le, people on the Home Care Program would access them. That was a policy the NDP put in place. They put money in the community to supp ort it and now they are saying that a decision made in 19 85 by their Cabi net, by their Government, is wrong?

Under ordi nary circums tanc es, I would use the unparliamentary word that they are dealing in hypocrisy, but I cannot do that. Mr. Speaker: You betcha you cannot do that. Mr. Doer: Dealing with hypocrisy, we will deal with the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard). My question is to the First Minister (Mr. Filmon). He promised in the last election that there would be no user fees introduc ed in the health care system, clearly there is. He promised in the last election there would be no bed closu res pending the review of our health care system.

Are those two more examples of badly worded promis es that the Min ister of Health (Mr . Orchard) stated, or are they reneging on his promise in terms of this very important issue? Mr. Orchard: Mr. Speaker, there are no user fees as my honourable friends says in the health care under any policy change that we have made in home care because we have made no policy change. The NDP, when Government, had citizens of Manitoba taken off the Government provided homemaker services and put on non-profit homemaking services when they come on.

That happened in Dauphin, tha t happened in Beaus ejour and, in 19 85, in 19 86, in 19 87, those ind ivid uals, where non-profit homemaker services were availa ble, were paying for it at $7 an hour. Now, did the Leader of the NDP (Mr. Doer) and his honourable friends in Cabi net describe that as a user fee then, because that was their policy? Health Sciences Centre Bed Closures Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Second Opposition): My question is to the Fi rst Minis ter. Manitoba has had a tradition of honest and forthright health Ministers, whether it has been Desjardi ns, Sherman, George Johnson, in years gone by.

My question to the First Minis ter, given the fact that the hospital beds at the Health Sciences Centre are totally closed, all the staff have been redepl oyed, there are telephones installed, there are four offices, is that the kind of honest and forthrig ht Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard) that he expects Manitobans to belie ve in, whether it is on the program that is now being cut and user fees being introduced or whether it is on the health care cutbacks in the hospitals ? Is that the kind of forthright policy that he expects from his Minister of Health? Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): Mr.

Speaker, I note a great absence in the Minister's (sic) list of honest health care Minis ters and tha t was my immediate predecessor, the Member for Transcona. I wou ld not want to cast that aspersion on the former Member for Transcona, as the Leader of the New Democrats (Mr. Doer) has now done. There is nothing in any action taken by myself or this Go vernment that would warrant that kind of vit riolic attack by the Leader of the New Democrats. There has been no policy change. The 19 74 inception of policy for Home Care is the same today as it was in 19 74.

The dir ection the NDP endorsed in 19 85 reinforced to make non-profit homemaker services available throughout Manitoba is still in place as it was enunciated, developed and funded by the NDP. There are no user fees today. There are no changes in policy. There is only-and I hate to use this word because it is unparliamentary and I should not ... Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Mr. Doer: My final question is to the First Mini ster (Mr. Filmon). Would he take 10 minutes and join me on a tour of the bed closure site that the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard) has told Manitobans does not exist?

Would he join me to view the offices, the telepho nes, the redeployed staff, contrary to the word that the Minister of Health has given in this House and contrary to what he has given to Manitobans? Let us see who is telling the truth, this Minister or this Opposition critic? * (1 025) Mr. Orchard: Mr.

Speaker, I sup pose when you get caught in your own rhetoric of now accusing a new Government of doing something wrong, which is simply followi ng the policy that you put in place, that the NDP put in place in Home Care, I sup pose it hurts to have your own policy brought back to you and explained to the people of Manitoba so that Manitobans know there has been no change in policy, that there has been no change in the abil ity to access Home Care servi ce, that the circumstance exists as always exis ted, even when the NDP were in office.

Nothi ng has changed in terms of bed closure policy that the NDP are now saying is changed. Nothing is changed. The only thing that one has to remember is that, in the management of the health care system in the Province of Manitoba, every other Government in the history of this province has opened hospital beds. Only the NDP closed hospital beds. Woodhaven School Leasing Guidelines Mr. Paul Edwards (St. James): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Min ister of Education (Mr. Derkach). The Dr.

Jesse Sau lteaux Resou rce Centre for Nativ e Ministry in the United Church of Canada has recently had its lease applic ation denied by the St. James Assiniboia School Board with respect to Woodhaven School. As I am sure the Minister is aware, under minis terial guidelin es, the school board is mandated to make every reasonable effort to lease the property within certain su bject areas. The Dr. Jesse Sau lteaux 1983

Friday, October 7, 1988 Resource Centre would appear to have fit into at least three of those. A proces sing of entertai ning and reviewing lease applic ati ons is set out in these guideli nes. My question is to the Min ister, has the Minister investigated the sequence of events which appears to have led to some bitterne ss and divisions in that commun ity? Is he concerned about the process which seems to have led to this? If he has not investigated, will he do so in light of his own guideli nes? Hon. Leonard Derkach (Minister of Education): Mr.

Speaker, I am not quite sure what the Member is sugge sti ng, but the gu ideli nes are very clear. That is, when there is a school that is not being util ized by a school division, it is up to that particular school di vision to enter into agreements with those groups who may be interested in leasi ng that particular space. The Department of Education nor the Minister get involved in those kinds of issues. I might indicate that St.

James-Assiniboia did indicate that they were interested in leasing that school and at that point in time we concurred that, yes, the school was in a surplus position, it was not requir ed, and that they in fact could enter into agreements with those parties interested in leasing that space as is outline d by the guidelin es. The guideli nes do not suggest subject areas, as is ind icated by the Member opposite. They suggest groups who have specific interests, and that is the way the guidelin es are mentioned . Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Member for St. James, with a supplem entary question. Mr.

Edwards: If the Minis ter would reread his guid eli nes, they quite clearly suggest certain su bject areas in which the school board is mandated to consider applications, and those su bject areas are then taken out when the school becomes the property of the Government for that very reason that those areas are presumed to have been covered by the school board . My question was, is the Minister convinced that these guidelin es, these su bject areas, have been stud ied enough by the school board and the application has been dealt with in a manner that is enti rely consistent with his guidel ines?

I point out again that it appears that this sequence of events has left some bitterne ss in the community, and I wou ld ask the Min ister to respond specific ally to the question of investigating the sequenc e of events which has le ft the Dr. Jessie Sau lteaux Centre, havi ng done renovations between $1 3,000 and $1 5,000, having had the keys for five months to the school, and then having the decision reversed on very short notice in Septem ber. *

(1030) Mr. Derkach: lt is very clear that the Member opposite does not have the facts on this entire issue because in fact the decision to rent or not to rent was not made until Septem ber. So there was no decision , to my knowledge, that was made prior to that date by the school board in terms of a motion whereby a decision had been made. In terms of investigating the matter, as I said, there are schools all over the province that school boards do lease to various organizations or groups when they become surplus. Mr. Speaker, that is not some thing that the department nor the Minister gets involved in.

To this point in time, it is our understanding that the school board has not come to us and indicated that they cannot find a group that is not interested in leasing that particular property. Dr. Saulteaux Research Centre Mr. Paul Edwards (St. James): A final question for the Minister of Education (Mr. Derkach), does the Minister deny that his officials were involved with the Dr. Jessie Sau lteaux Resou rce Centre as early as February of this year? Does he deny that keys were given to the resource centre in March of this year?

And does he deny that the school board officials had knowledge and indeed impli edly sanctioned renovation works in July and August in the amount of $13 ,000 to $15 ,000.00? Does he deny those facts? Is he concerned about them? Is he concerned about the fact that this money has been spent and there was an abrupt reversal in Septem ber, leaving tha t charitable organ ization $13, 000 to $1 5,000 in the lurch? Is he concerned about that? Will he investigate it? Does he not see it as his duty to investigate? Hon. Leonard Derkach (Minister of Education): That was an interesting barrage of questions, Mr. Speaker.

I jus t might indicate that it is kind of curious that the Member who is the critic for Education is not asking the question, who is the Member for Sturgeon Creek (Mr s. Yeo). Mr. Speaker, I have to indic ate that this is a matter that is within the jurisdiction of the school board.

Now whether the school board tu rned the keys over or whether authorit ies of the school board tu rned the keys over to the particular group is certainly not something that I get involved in, nor is it something that the department gets involved in. lt is a matter that is at the local level, at the school board level, and that is how it is being dealt with. Economic Stimulation Unemployment Rate Mr. Richard Kozak (Transcona): My question is for the Acting Minister of Finance, I assume the Premier (Mr. Filmon).

For five months now, the Li beral Party has been pres sing this Gove rnment to st imula te Manitoba's weakening economy. The Minister has been saying that his Bud get plan has all the stimu lation needed. Someone had to be wrong, Mr. Speaker. Today we see tha t after fiv e months of Cons ervative Government, Manitoba's unemployment rate has leapt well above the national average, which I point out is declini ng. Mr.

Sp eaker , gi ven tha t Man itoba 's seaso nally adju sted unemployment rate is now 8.7 percent, does this Minister have any confidence at all in his Bud get prediction of the 7.5 percent unemplo yment rate? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): I might point out to the Member that Manitoba's unemployment rate was above 1984

Friday, October 7, 1988 the national average in March of this year during the election campaign. Mr. Speaker, I might point out to the Member, if he would like to analy ze the figu res that were put forth by Statistics Canada, they showed that we have had a major decline in employment in a number of sectors, firstly, agricu ltu re. The Mem ber may not be aware, but the effects of the drought, of the weather conditions, over which we have absol utely no control, are such that people are not being hired in the harvest in the numbers that they -{Interjection)-Mr. Speaker, the Member for Concordia {Mr.

Doer) continu es to interrupt. I recognize that I am gui lty of from time to time heckling across the House. I think that the question that has been asked is a legitima te one. 1t deserves a legitima te answer and it deserves a reasoned answer, and I would like to give that answer. If the Members opposite are not satisfied the effect s of the drought, of cou rse, are known throughout this province. They may not be known to the Member for Transcona {Mr.

Kozak), but the fact is that there are not as many people involved in the harvest in September this year for potatoes, for sugar beets, for all of our grain crops. There are not as many people who have been hir ed . Tha t sector is do wn in employment over last year at 7. 1 percent. That is very serious, Mr. Spe aker. There is a decline in employment in construction of over 13 percent. Now, we have taken some very sign ificant actions in our bud getary measu res. We have in our Budge t this year funds that have unfrozen the freeze that was put on by the NDP on health care, hospital care constructi on.

Personal care homes and hospitals were frozen under the NDP. That health care bud get, Capital budge t which wi ll be presented by my colleague, the Minister of Health {Mr. Orchard), contains plans for spending in capital works and health care that will sti mulate construction. There is a sign ificant chunk in that Bud get for hospital construction, for highways construction as wel l.

We have had in the past few months the noti fication that Manitoba will be the site of a virology lab, of an agricultur e lab and of a sustai nable development centre, all of which will involve major investment in construction in this province to overcome the neglect of the last six years of policies under the NDP. Mr. Speaker: Order, please; order, please. Deficit Forecast Mr. Richard Kozak (Transcona): A supplement ary for the Premier {Mr. Filmon), the Min ister of Finance {Mr. Manness) has admitted to this House that capital investment in Manitoba will fall far short of his Bud get prediction .

Unemployment is up, interest rates are up. Does the Premier {Mr. Filmon) have any confide nce at all in his Bud get prediction of a $196 million pr ovincial deficit? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): The Member refers to interest rates. If he were keeping track of what this Government has said, what I have said, he would know that I wholeheartedly sup ported all of the communique that was issued by all of the Premiers of this country urging Ottawa, urging the Bank of Canada to get rid of its high interest rate policies, to get th ose interest rates down, so that we could have some positive effect on our economy.

We are looking at both sides of the balance sheet. We are ensuring that we are controlling costs within Gov ernment. With in tha t Budg et, th ere was a combination of departments to elimina te the kind of dupl ication of bu reaucracy, to eliminate bureaucracy and to make sure that our money went into services. I can say to the Member opposite that, yes, we are confident that we can meet or better the target of $19 6 million deficit. Budget Predictions Mini-budget Mr. Richard Kozak (Transcona): A final supplementary for the Premier {Mr.

Filmon), none of us are in politics to do nothing but point finger s and say I told you so. Will the Premier admit that week after week, month after month, his Budg et predictions come crashing down around him, and will he now produce a mini-Budget to stimu late Manitoba's weakening economy? Hon.

Gary Filmon (Premier): If the Member opposite wants to look at the positi ve side of things, and I am sure that is di fficult for the Li beral Party, the Party of gloom and doom, the negative Party that every day comes here and wants to paint Manitoba as a have not province, as their Leader did in the televised debate this April, refer to Manitoba as a have-not province. We do not belie ve that. If he would look at these figu res, he would see that despite the fact that some of our areas have been adversely affected by items outside our control, and I refer to agriculture, there are some very positive signs.

Manufactu ring employment is up 10.8 percent over September of la st year . Other primary ind ustry employers, employment is up 9.6 percent. That includes mining. That in clude s many other areas that are sign ificantly doing well in this province. There are other areas that are up by 7 percent and so on. We are moving on a posit ive agenda. We believe that our Bud get figu res continue to remain su bstantive, and I have said to him -{Interjection)-Will the Member for Concordia {Mr. Doer) stop shouting "order"?

Clearly I have the right and the respo nsibi lity to answer questions in this House, and I will not be shouted down by him or anyone else. * {1040) Mr. Speaker: Order, please. I remi nd the Honourable Fi rst Minister {Mr. Filmon) that answers to quest ions should be as brief as possi ble. Mr. Filmon: Mr. Speaker, in conclusion, I say to him that the Bud get target of $196 milli on deficit will be met or bettered . 1985

Friday, October 7, 1988 Employment Programs Job Creation Policy Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East): Mr. Speaker, have a question for the Minister of Employment Services (Mrs. Oleson) relating to the dis mal figur es that we received this morning from Statistics Canada on our unemplo yment situa tion.

Given the fact that our unemployment rate is up sign ificantly both in seasonally adjusted terms and in actual terms, given the fact that there are fewer people working in Manitoba today than there were a year ago, gi ven the fact th at th ere are 7,000 more people unemp loyed today who I am sure find the Premier's (Mr.

Filmon) words very hollow- he may get away with it in the Chamber of Commerce but not with work ing pe ople of this provi nce-g iven the fact that our unemployment rate is now above the Canadian average, gi ven the fact that our youth unemployment rate is higher than last year, and given the fact that our youth unemplo yment rate in fact is higher than the Canadian average, will the Min ister of Employment Services (Mr s.

Oleson) now reinstate the very successful program, Job Training for Tomorrow, that they have cut that provided hundreds, in fact thousands , of new permanent jobs in the private sector, in the non-profit sector? Will she reinstate this program or establish some other type of employment program to help create some jobs for our people in the few months ahead? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, I have di fficulty listening to the kinds of words that are being put forward by the Member for Brandon East (Mr. Evans) wh ose Gove rnment's poli cies resulted in the dete rioration of employment that we see here.

These kinds of di fficult ies do not happen in a matter of six months or five months. They happen because of six years of neglect and specific policies that were put in by the NDP Government: the payroll tax, a tax on jobs tha t destro yed emplo yment in this province; the continuing huge deficits that year after year after year, at a half billion dolla rs a year, destroyed capital in this provi nce, destroyed initia ti ve in this province and destroyed job creation in this province. I say to the Member that in.

March of this year our unemployment figu res exceeded the national average for the fi rst time in more than a decade because of his policies, and we are doing everything possible to ensure that does not happen in future. Mr. Leonard Evans: Will the Minister, or maybe I should ask the Premier (Mr. Filmon)-t he Minister seems to be very silent on this matter- convene a meeting of their key Employment Services staff and develop a plan of action?

Will she go to Cabine t and get some action, or will they ig nore the situation and let our unemplo yed remain frustrated, joble ss and likely candida tes for welfare this winter, given the fact that for three months in a row Mani toba's unemp loyment situation has deteriorated sign ificant ly, very signi ficantly? Mr. Filmon: This Government finds it unacceptable to have one person unemplo yed in this provi nce. One is too many. Mr. Speaker, we want to do everything possi ble to ensure that we reduce unemployment and create opportunities.

But wha t the Member opposite is doing is repeating and repeating and repeating demands for policies that fail, that were an abject and total failure under the short-term, make-work initiatives that were gone after a matter of months, after the Government fund ing was over, were gone and resu lted in nothing positiv e in long-term happenings in this province and were a dis aster for this province.

That is why we are working on the areas that we bel ie ve are im portant , a 10.8 per cent increa se in employment in the manufactu ring sector, a 9.6 percent in the other primary sectors, areas that are long-term jobs for the people of this province, where they will build a base of financial security in this province that will be important to the futu re, not the kind of short term, make-work jobs that he advocates day after day after day. Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Member for Brandon East, with a final supp lementary question. Mr. Leonard Evans: Is this Premier (Mr.

Filmon) telling the people of Manitoba, and those unemp loyed people of Manitoba- An Honourable Member: 7,000. Mr. Leonard Evans: -7,000 people more unemployed today than a year ago? Is he tel ling the people of this province, and particula rly the unemplo yed, that his Government is prepared to take no action whatsoever in the field of dir ect job creation, again I say, working with the private sector and the non-profit sector to create permanent new jobs as we did with the Job Training for Tomorrow Program? Mr.

Filmon: The people of this province told the New Democratic administration what they thought of thei r wasteful, short-term mentali ty, their shor t-term, make work jobs that were a total failur e for this province. They told them they were not happy with it on April 26 . We are putting our inv estment in long-term job crea tion. That is why we are work ing with the manufacturing sector; that is why we are working with the primary indus try sector; that is why we are working on Manfor, on HBM &S, on Alumax, on all of those long term things.

Tha t is why we have taken off the freeze that they put on health care institution construction personal care home s, hospital expansion s-tho se things that we have started to announce, that we will be announcing when this House approves our Capital bud get, as it will, I am su re, in the Estimates process. We are looking at the long term because we had enough of the short-term and unfortunate attitude of the previous Government that has result ed in where we are today. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. 1986

Friday, October 7, 1988 Hudson Bay Mining & Smelting Loan Guarantees Mr. Herold Driedger (Niakwa): My question is for the Minister of Energy and Mi nes (Mr. Neuf eld). I am glad that the Premier (Mr. Film on) was able to reference their long-term investment strategy particularly with respect to Manfor and Alum ax and HBM &S. The question I have for the Minister and for his Government, when will his Government stop playing politics now with the lives of northern Manitobans? Manfor has been valued at $1, but we do not know to what end.

Aluminum smelters come and go, it seems, jus t before every election but, when it comes down to actually making a commitment, when it comes down to HBM&S , all we hear is tha t negotiations will not be conducted in this Legislature. Why then is the company being forced into negotiating through the media? Is this Government satisfied to allow the future of Flin Flon to become an election Is sue, or will it demand of the federal Government a decision on the loan guarantees for HBM &S? Hon. Harold Neufeld (Minister of Energy and Mines): Mr.

Speaker, I do belie ve I answered the question fully the last time it was asked in this House. If the Member for Niakwa (Mr. Herold Driedger) wishes a repeat of that answer, I will do so. The provi ncial Gove rnment is moni toring the negotiatio ns between the federal Govern ment and HBM &S. Before we can make an announcement, I do believe that the federal Government and HBM &S must make the announcement. The fact that the president of Huds on Bay Mi ning and Smelting spoke to the Chamber of Commerce on Monday of this week has nothing to do with our negotiations. Mr.

Speaker: The time for Oral Que stions has expir ed . ORDERS OF THE DAY Hon. James McCrae (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, would you be so kind as to call the Bills as lis ted on page 2 of today's Order Paper. •

(1050) DEBATE ON SECOND READINGS BILL NO. 6- THE FIRES PREVENTION AMENDMENT ACT Mr. Speaker: Debate on second readings, on the proposed motion of the Honourable Minister of the Environment (Mr . Ca nnery), Bill No. 6, The Fi res Prevention Amendment Act; Loi modifiant la

Loi sur la prevention des incendies, standing in the name of the Honourable Member for Spr ingfield (Mr. Roch). Mr. Gilles Roch (Springfield): Mr. Speaker, it is with pleasure that I rise today to speak on Bill No. 6, The Fi res Prevent ion Amendment Act. The purpose of the Bill is obviously to amend what has apparently been an incorrect situa tion.

The way I understand it, people from out of province have been coming in and been able to take advantage because of a loophole in the Act and take the course free of charge, and then taking it back to their ju risdictions, therefore leavi ng the Manitoba taxpayers to toot the bill. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. If Honourable Members would like to carry on with their private conversations, like I have said in the past, we do have some anterooms off to the side. Mr. Roch: Mr. Speaker, the Minister of the Environment (Mr.

Cannery) says I did not do my homework but, according to his comments, the Government wants the abil ity to charge those groups who are not within the fir e system of the Gover nment of Man itoba for fi refighting trai ning. lt appears from the comments that he made in his speech that the Government would like to charge the Government of Canada, other provincial Governments, private indust ry, and I would presume other Governments from other states or other provinces for tuition fees, which at present is prohibi ted unde r the amended Act. Is that not the case? Hon.

Edward Connery (Minister of Environment and Workplace Safety and Health): Partly. Mr. Roch: Mr. Speaker, I am having great di fficulty. The Minister of the Environment (Mr. Cannery) is getting kind of chirpy, but I am getting up to speak in sup port of his Bi ll. This is basical ly essentially a housekeeping Bill. I am trying to get a few comments on the record in support of it and the Minister is not happy. Is the Minister saying that he is not in support of his own Bill? If that is the case, let him get up.

Mind you , given the recent flip flops that he has made in these past few weeks on PCBs and other matters, maybe I should rightfully refer to him as his colleague, the Minister of Industr y (Mr. Ernst) calls him, the Minister responsi ble for pink slips. That applies to both the public and private sectors. In any case, Mr. Speaker, I belie ve I am getting off the relevancy of the Bill here, and I am sorry. Anyhow, the main concerns, because of the way the Bill was worded was that the wording of the amendment is not totally precise in outl ining the Government's intention of who will pay the tuition fees.

I would suggest that the amendment leaves open the possi bil ity that all Manitoba firefighters, both the professional ones and the volunteers, could face tuition fees for additiona l firefighting trai ning. Mr. Speaker, I believe I am losing order again. The Member for Concordia (Mr. Doer) is making allegations to other Bills here and I do not see what relevancy- An Honourable Member: The Human Righ ts Act, did you change your mind on that one? Mr. Roch: No. Mr. Speaker: I know it is Friday. I know the long weekend is here.

I know Honourable Members want to get going, but we wou ld appreciate the fact if you 1987

Friday, October 7, 1988 wou ld give the Honourable Member for Sprin gfield (Mr. Roch) the courtesy of listening to his remarks. Mr. Roch: Mr. Spe aker, the Attorney-General (Mr. McCrae) says nobody takes me seriously anymore. Given what is happening in the Land Titles Office, I do not think anybody takes him too seriously either . Anyhow, for a Government who has come in to try and attempt to clean up the previous Government's mess, it is kind of ironic that they have to keep on, to a certain extent, on their agenda in order to maintain their sup port.

Anyho w, I was ju st answ ering to a few comments he made from his seat and again, because of that, I am devia ting from the Bill.-(I nterjection)-The Minis ter of Education (Mr. Derkach) just said something. Would he care to rise and say it into the record? I guess not. Essentially, we on this side are supporting this Bill. The Minister of Environment (Mr. Cannery) laughs. Why he does he laugh at his own Bill? I do not know. lt appears that he does not want suppor t for it. I do no t see it as a very contentious Bill; I see it as a very legitima te Bill.

The only concern is that volu nteers, we have to ensure that when this Bill goes through that people who take this course and go on to become volunteer fi refighters are not charged the tuition fees for providing a skill which they will do so on their own time and on their own volition. Essentially, we endorse this Bill. lt merely calls for the abil ity to charge tuition fees for students who are out of province.

However, I would go on to say that these people who take this course and will later go on to make it a career, I thi nk, as in other professions, as in other stud ies, should be re quir ed to pay a part of their tuition fees; that is a norm. Basically, the whole purpose of this Bill , the whole intent of it, is good and we on this side, with the concerns expressed, will have no trouble supporting it. Thank you. Mr. John Plohman (Dauphin): lt is a pleasure to be able to join the debate on The Fire Preventions Act.

Of course, I appreciate that the Minister has brought forward amendments to this act which allo ws an opportunity to discuss the whole issue of fire prevention in this province, one that, of course, affects every person in this province, whether they be in the small rural communitie s throughout Manitoba, in major cities, ind ividuals on farms or people in remote communities in northern Manitoba. All have a need to have their property protected and their lives protected through adequa te fire prevention measures.

Of course, it takes a great deal of trai ning and organization to ensure that there is an effective fire prevention system in place in this province and in all provinces. So any improvements to that system that are made through legislation are very sign ificant and ones that certai nly bear the right, I would bel ieve, to . have a major deba te and dis cussion and consider ation before making final decisions. I do not think that the amendments in terms of their intent would caus e any di sagreement for myself.

However, I do agree with my colleagues who have raised concerns about the open ended nature of this amendment. The fact is that it allows for the prescribing of fees which can be charged to anyone. The purpose, of course, is to allow for the charging of fees, as stated by the Minis ter, for other organizations and agencies throughout the country who may want to use our facilitie s-ou r fine facilitie s, I might add-particularly the Brandon Fire College which was established in 1983 by our Government, one tha t I am very proud of and one whic h involved a great deal of debate.

I want to talk about that a little bit before closing my remarks today. *

(1100) I am concerned that the purpose of the amendment is not clearly outli ned in the amendment itself , because it leaves it open to charge others, including northern communities or others. Of course, it is not intended. The Minister says it is not intended. I do not not believe that is his intention, of course. With pressures of deficits and pressures to provide services that people demand in all areas, in health care and education and social services, it makes it -(Interjection)-The Member for Arthur (Mr. Downey) says that it was a deficit that was caused by our mismanagement.

The fact is that deficits have been out of control to a much greater degree in such provinces as Saskatchewan and British Colum bia, the national Government, the Mulr oney Government and the Trudeau Government before, and the Reagan Government of the U.S. lt is not a phenomena that is unique to Man itoba and cannot be bl amed on mismanagement of the New Democratic Party while in Government.

Clearly, that is not a fact, and the Member for Arthur should get his head out of the sand and ensure that he knows the facts before he makes those kinds of statements tha t get put on the reco rd, inadvertently perhaps, but certainly do. Mr. Speaker, there are a lot of pressures to charge for services. I am very much afraid that the Government is not sa:ying what it means in this amendment and that what they are doing is saying that they want to open-endedly have the right to charge for trai ning at these facil itie s when that could be abused . lt could, in fact, be charges that are placed on Manitobans.

I wou ld not like to see that because this service is too important and training is too vital to so many people, especially with the hazardous goods that are now transported and stored in various places in this province. lt is fund amental that we have adequ ate training, thorough trai ning of modern su bstances and methods to deal with those substan ces in this province, throughout the whole province, whether it be in southern Manitoba or in the more remote areas. 1t is a big job to do that. lt is a very expensive job, one that we undertook to a large degree while in Government, and I want to speak about that as well.

I do not think the Government should leave this open ended . I belie ve they should stipu late why they are doing this , why they are putting this forward in the Act so that it li mits the powers to charge for services at such facil ities as the Brandon Fire Colle ge. Our Government recognized the importance over the last number of years of firefighting readiness and trai ning, and therefore undertook some major efforts to improve the readiness and tra ining of fi refighters throughout the province, and emergency workers and ambul ance workers. 1988

Friday, October 7, 1988 I should point out that in many small com muni ties in the North, firefighters and ambu lance attendants are one and the same. They do both of those functions. In other words, they are ded icating a tremendous amount of their time to be on call for both fires and for life-threatening emergencies where ambu lances are required. They are one and the same person, or persons who are volunte ering to do both of those services, to provide those services to the communities.

Therefore, there is a need to integrate their training rather than dupl icate their trai ning, to requir e training for ambula nce attendants and to requi re training for fi refighters on separate occasions, because it is too expensiv e to do it that way. lt is much more efficient to train them together, since they are the same people who are being trai ned. I want to indic ate that we had indeed made a numb er of efforts towards that end, insofar as the training is requir ed, at various locations in this province. We had put in place the Brandon College and provided , through those facil itie s, trained people.

We have provided a great deal of training for volunteers. I want to just mention that volu nteers make up, by and large, the vast majority of our firefig hters and ambu lance att endants across this provi nce, and emergency workers. Without volu nteers in th ose areas, really the service could not be provided to the extent that it has been at all. lt would be a shame to see that their trai ning wou ld be charged for by the Government of Manitoba in the futur e for these volunteers to be trained.

That is what is wrong with this amendment, although the principle of charging other locations, other ju risd ictions, for this trai ning is, of course, one that all of us can supp ort. lt is similar to the Arnprior , Ontario facili ty for emergency training that has served Manitobans as wel l as all of the provinces for many years. Through our Emergency Measures Organization, we have trained many, many people in emergency preparedness at Arnprior, Ontario, at their faci lity there, and of course those services are charged for by that facili ty.

The fir e college was actually envisaged to provide sim ilar kinds of services in Manitoba for emergency traini ng, for ambu lance trai ning, for firefight ers and so on. I think that this amendment is a move in that dir ection which allows us to indeed develop this into a world cl ass, a national centre for training, and therefore help to pay for the costs of maintai ning that facility in providing the services that Manitobans need. That is an important step forward insofar as that is concerned.

We have to remember that many departments of Government are involved in training and that leads to some inefficiencies. I have to point out that it is the Department of Labour, through the Fire Commissioner's Office, that is responsible for the operation of the fire college, but that was not a given when that college was established.

As a matter of fact, there was a great deal of debate between a num ber of departments, including the Department of Health, the Department of Government Services who was res ponsible for the Emerge ncy Measu res Organization, as well as the Department of Labour, as to who should be responsible for the operation of this fire college, or what some would call an emergency trainin g facil ity in Brandon. lt was not ini tially though t tha t it should just automatically be called a fire college. I am not sure that was the right decision.

I believe that it should be much more than that. lt should be an emergency training facil ity that provides integrated training in all of the areas of emergency response, not jus t for firefig hters, but for ambula nce trainin g and for emergency training for natu ral di sasters tha t migh t happen that are coord ina ted through the Emergenc y Me asure Organization. There is a great deal of debate as to who should be responsible. In the end, the Fire Commissio ner's Office won out insofar as running and operating this facility.

I can tell you that there were a lot of civil servants in the other areas, in the other departments who were very concerned about having an integrated facility, and I thought that was a good ide a. I think the Min ister might want to consider moving in that direction to integ rate the training system to a greater degree than it is now at this college as he gains additional revenue from the charging for training from other ju risdictions. As those ju risdictions come to realize that we have a fine facility, they will want additional services provided, additional training opportuni ties.

The demands will be there, the money will be there and Manitobans will benefit because they too will be able to have access to those sophisticated training methods that can then be provided through the charging of fees at that college. I belie ve that there will be a move to integrate the training for all emergency responses in the future. I think this Minister should move in that direction as quickly as possible in the name of efficiency for training. Mr. Speaker, I had mentioned that our Government had taken major steps forward.

One of the things that we had done is made a major effort to train volu nteer fi refig hters, ambula nce att endants and dr ivers throughout the remote areas of our province. That had been neglected for many years. They did not have the facilities and it became a priority because, when a family in a remote community was su bjected to a fire, they were doomed essent ially to lose their property-that was a given -and ma ybe lives were going to be lost as well because there were no support services, no assistance that was available in an organized way for that community.

In fact, that st ill exists in many of the reserve communities in northern Manitoba and northern areas, remote areas of the country generally and has to be dealt with, has to be admin istered to by Governments. We had made, as I said, a number of improvements and during the time of our Government we had seen that many remote communities had developed very sophisticated emergency response teams. Firefighters had honed their skills at such things as firefighters' rodeos which are quite an attractive event in many communities. I have attended a number of these fir e rodeos in Waterhen which is in my constituency.

I frankly can tell you that it is a major event in that community. 1989

Friday, October 7, 1988 lt is a major event for many communities who attend. Those teams compete against one another for the top prizes and they attach a great deal of importance to winning the rodeo in the various events. At first, when they talked about a rodeo, I thought I was going to something resembling a bucking bronco and bullriding competitions, and I wondered how they fit fi refighting into that. When I got there, I soon learned pretty quickly that there were many different events that were involved. The teams have a great deal of spirit.

There are a numb er of women in volved, I should tell you as volu nteers in fi refighting in northern areas. They have become very proficient and, of course, a welcome addition to the team of emergency service providers in those communities.

I can tell you that in many cases women have won, women on teams have won those fi refig hters' rodeos. * (1 1 10) Not only do they have the competitions but they have a dinner in the evening and then a dance, the prizes are given out and it becomes a major event in the community, one that creates a great deal of community spirit, allows these people to develop their skills, these volu nteers who are so essential in these communi ties, and ensure that these services are going to be provided in the various communities over the years to a greater and gr eater de gree.

Gr eater awareness by the community of the importance of those volu nteers is also one of the outcomes of the rodeos that are held in these areas. I want to compli ment the people who have worked in this area, the volu nteers who have given of their time over the years, who have put in so much effort insofar as training. The community spirit that has resulted has truly been something that we can all admire. In addition to the trai ning and the greater awareness that has taken place unde r our Government in the area of fire prevention, Mr.

Speaker, we also had undertaken a major effort to provide equipm ent, ambu lances, fire trucks that were necessary. As a matter of fact, with large dis tances between hospitals and nursing stations in northern areas it is very important. lt is actually more essential to have ambulances that are in good condition, that can provide this service as quickly as possibl e. So we have provided the air ambu lance that has helped to ensure that the lives were protected in northern communities, in remote communities as much as in southern areas that have access to our major hospitals, not to the same degree.

You can never provide equal service but you can try to do your best to move toward providing a level of service that is certainly a great improvement over what many of the people in these areas have had to live with and die with over the years. What we did was to provide through Northern Affairs funds to purchase new ambula nces. I know in my own constituency at Waterhen their ambulance was derelict. lt had pretty wel l run out its la st mile and the y desperately needed a new ambulance. We went to work with the Deputy Minister of Northern Affairs and got some funding.

They raised some money of their own and together they were able to purchase another used ambulance which was in very good shape from, I believe, Yorkton, Saskatchewan, which now provides them with very reliable ambula nce service. In addition to that, fire halls were very important, trai ning areas, areas in the community, facilities in the community where people could meet, the firefighters, ambula nce attendants and drivers, to discuss the service and to practice their skills.

We had put in place through the Northern Communities Places Program one which has been greatly reduced by this Government, which is of great concern to me, a program which would allow for the costs of fire halls to be paid for through the Northern Communities Places Program, which was a Jobs Fund program. The First Minister (Mr. Filmon) today was talking about make-work projects and short-term. In northern areas it is very important to have these essential facilities that we all take for granted. A lot of the firefighters in those areas had no faciliti es, no pla ce to put their fire trucks and ambul ances.

We realized the importance of that issue, that the Government had to assist and deal with this issue, that we had a responsibil ity to provide these facilities. So we provided 100 percent of the costs of building those facilitie s, at the same time providing some short-term jobs. The fact is though that now this Government has decided that they must provide 50 percent of the funds for projects in northern areas, which is absolutely unthinkabl e.

There is no way for these communiti es to raise these kinds of funds to the same extent that southern communiti es can with the greater wealth base than these remote communities have. In many cases they have 90 percent unempl oyment, how can they raise the funds to 50 percent to match the Government's funds to build a fire hall, for example? That is unreal and it is impossi ble for them to do.

I hope this Government and these Ministers that are here will take another look at that issue and say some of these vital services and facilities have to be provided to a greater degree in northern and remote communities than they are in southern areas where there is a greater degree of wealth and ability to raise funds to match the Government's programs? I ask them to reconsider that issue in the next while because it is fund amental to what we are di scussi ng today, and that is The Fire Prevention Amendment Act.

Clearly, if we are going to ensure that services are available, we must ensure that they are available in the communities because that is where the emergencie s occur, in addition to the training. That is why I have raised the concern that I have and my colleagues have that none of these people, the se volu nteers in these commu nit ie s who so desperately need assistance, be charged for training that will be provided at the fire colleges in the various areas of this province.

They in fact should never be charged and we will certainly serve notice to the Government that if that was their intent at any time we would object in the strongest terms as hard as we could. In closing my comments on this Bill then, although it has been called minor, it is very important. lt deals 1990

Friday, October 7, 1988 with a very funda mental area insofar as emergency services. I would urge the Government to provide as much in formation to other provi nces, shari ng of information, to let them know that this service is available, that this facility is available, to encourage them to get their training here, in other words, to market the fire college and of course then have the abil ity to raise funds through the assessment of fees that are applied for in this Act, because only through that will we improve the services and training for all of our people in our own province.

I would ask them to ensure that we develop a world class facility in Brandon at the Fire College there so that ipdeed we will realize a great deal of revenue from this provision . I also ask the Minister to ensur e that he protects the services of northern remote com munities, and that he does whatever is necessary to develop those services further. In closing, I want to also make reference to the firef ighting volunteers and ambu lance service workers, emergency response workers in my community of Dauphin and Winnipegosis, some of the communities that I represent.

They have one of the finest briga des, I think, of any communi ty in the province. Many, many people have ded icated their liv es to ensuring that lives and property are protected. This is simi lar throughout the province. We should all hold them in high esteem, thank them and extend our appreciation to them for the work that they do on an ongoing basis on behalf of all of the citi zens of our province.

I can tell you as well that as Minister of Government Services over the years, I had an opportun ity to be responsible for the Emergency Me asures Organization and the Emergency Measures Organization has vastly improved the sophistication of emerge ncy response readiness in communities throughout the province and in northern communities. Although it is not strictly related to fire prevention the fact is, when di sasters occur, communities do have to have an emergency plan. They have to be ready to respond in an organized way, not in a haphazard way, not with confusion and chaos.

They have to know exactly what their responsibi lity is. The mayor has to know what services he can draw on, or the reeve in a rural munici pality. They have to know what is available, and tho se plans that have been put in place in many communit ies and are requi red with the new Emergency Measures Act that we put in place last year, that my colleague, the Member for The Pas (Mr. Harapiak), as Minister, brought forward to this Ho use.

Those plans will be manda tory in every community throughout the province but, on a volunt ary basis, many of these plans are already in place. * (1 12 0) If any Members of this Assembly have an opportun ity to discuss with the local community councils in northern areas, as well as municipal councils, they will find that these councill ors and reeves and mayors and staff are very proud of the efforts that they have made to prepare themselves for emergencies, in development of their emergency plans. 1991 That has come as a result of the initiativ es of the Emergency Measu res Organization and the Di saster Assistance Board that we had enhanced tremendously during the time in Government, and one of the accompli shments that I feel very good about, and I am sure I share with many local people throughout the provi nce.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, and I would supp ort this Bill as it was explained, the intent. However, I feel again that the Minister should review the possi bil ity of limiting the powers of this amendment with his department, look at limi ting so that charges could not be made on a holus -bolus basis, widespr ead basis to Manitobans for training that is so essential for protecting lives and property in this province. Mr. Speaker: Is the House ready for the question? The question before the House is the second reading of- The Honourable Min ister of the Environment (Mr. Connery). Mr.

Connery: I move, seconded by the Minis ter of Communi ty Services (Mr s. Oleson), that debate be adjourned. MOTION presented and carried. Mr. Speaker: Might I remind the Honourable Member that when he does speak to that he wi ll be closing debate? I remind the Honourable Minister that when he does speak to the said Bill he will be closing deba te. Mr. Connery: That is right. Mr. Speaker: On the proposed motion of the Honourable Attorney-General (Mr. McCrae), Bill No. 8, The Court of Queen 's Bench Small- The Honourable Member for lnkster (Mr. Lamoureux). Mr.

Kevin Lamoureux (lnkster): I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for St. James (Mr. Edward s), that deba te be adjourned on Bill No. 6. Mr. Speaker: lt has been adjourned by the Honourable Min ister of the Environment (Mr. Connery). Mr. Lamoureux: He is going to be debating on it, for clarifica tion? Mr. Speaker: That he has closed debate on it. Mr. Lamoureux: We wou ld like to have someone else speak on this particular Bill. We ask leave to reopen debate on this particular Bill. Mr. Speaker: Does the Honourable Member for lnkster have leave to reopen Bill No. 6? Hon.

Glen Cummings (Minister of Muncipal Affairs): I was wondering if the Member opposite would care to indic ate how many more speakers he would antici pate having if leave is granted. Mr. Speaker, I

Friday, October 7, 1988 would be prepared to grant leave on the informal condition that we have one more speaker from the Li beral Party and then the Mini ster of Environment (Mr. Connery) be allowed to close debate the next time this Bill is called. Mr. Speaker: Is tha t agreed? (Agreed) Mr. Harold Taylor (Wolseley): I move, seconded by the Member for Transcona (Mr. Kozak), that this matter be adjou rned. Mr. Richard Koza k (Tran scona): The Of ficial Opposition is indeed pleased to let the matter remain adjourned in the name of the Honourable Minister of Labour and Environment (Mr. Connery). Mr.

Speaker: By leave, I belie ve we will have one more speaker from the Opposition side. lt is my understanding that I belie ve that when this Bill is next before the House next Tuesday, that will be the time for the Honourable Member to ask for leave to get his remarks on the record. That wi ll be the time to ask for leave. BILL NO. 8- THE COURT OF QUEEN'S BEN CH SMALL CLAIMS PRACTICES AMENDMENT ACT Mr. Speaker: On the proposed motion of the Attorney General (Mr. McCrae), Bill No. 8, The Court of Queen's Bench Small Claims Practices Amendment Act; Loi modi fiant la

Loi sur le recouvrement des petites creances a la Cour du Banc de la Reine, standing in the name of the Honourable Memb er for Selkirk (Mr s. Charles). (Stan

d) BILL NO. 9-STATUTE LAW AMENDMENT (RE-ENACTED STATUTES) ACT Mr. Speaker: On the proposed motion of the Attorney Ge neral (Mr . McC rae), Bil l No. 9, Statute Law Amendment (R e-enacted Statutes) Act; Loi modifiant div erses di sposi tions legisla tiv es (Lois readoptee s), � standing in the name of the Honourable Memb er for , Elmwood (Mr. Maloway). (Stan

d) BILL NO. 11- THE CHILD CUSTODY ENFORCEMENT AMENDMENT ACT Mr. Speaker: On the proposed motion of the Attorney General (Mr. McCrae), Bill No. 11 , The Child Custody Enforcement Amendment Act; Loi modifiant la

Loi sur I' execution des ordonnances de garde, standing in the name of the Honourable Member for Churchill (Mr. Cowan). The Honourable Member for Brandon East. Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East): Although this is standing in the name of the Member for Churchill (Mr. Cowan), I am prepared to say a few words at this time on this particular legisla tion. Mr. Speaker: Is it agreed that it will stand in the name of the Honourable Member for Churchill? (Agreed) Mr.

Evans: I do not pretend to be any expert on family law and indeed this particular piece of legisla tion, you could say, fits in to the umbrella of the concept that we know and refer to as family law in Manitoba. We live in a very fast-changing society and certainly in that fast-changing society we have seen the family unit affected very much by that. We have changes in the kinds of famil ies we have with us it seems.

Regrettably, we have seen an increase in the number of divorces, an increase in the number of separations and, for whatever reason, situations that cause childr en to be held by others, looked after by others, in a form of custody. * (1 130) I do not know how to explain the phenomenon. What is happen ing in Manitoba is not special, it is not singu larly different from what is going on elsewhere in Canada, indeed the Western World.

We, as a Legislature, over the years have tried to cope with some of these changes by bringing in various pieces of family law and have tried to change our laws in order to come up with some solutions to help us as a society to cope with some of these changes. lt covers the whole spectrum. lt includes even changes of names, the abil ity of women to have their child registered at birth in the name of the woman, as opposed to the name of the husband, the male, making it easier for women to change their names if they so wish; other aspects of the family law legi slation respecting the splitting of assets at the time of di vorce and many other elements.

This, I guess you would say, is jus t one small item in this umbrella of family law change. As I understand the Bill, Bill No. 7, The Child Custody Enforcement Amendment Act, is meant to work as a kind of a pilot program to help parents better access childr en and, secondly, to help the custodial parents to have the access parent live up to his or her obliga tions. I guess it somehow or other reflects the situation where there is conflict and where it is difficult for one par ty or the other, one parent or the other, to get access to the childr en.

I do not have the figu res, but I susp ect in most cases it is fathers tryi ng to get access to the childr en of a family. Sur ely this legislation is meant to enha nce the interests of the child or the childr en, because I belie ve there is an assumption here that it is good for the childr en to have both parents available to them, not knowing exactly how much time or how often or when, but it is good. I think there is agreement that there has to be better provision for access by parents. There are a lot of detailed questions one could ask regarding this.

Some Members opposite and on this side, both sides, have asked questions as to how this project will work. What about the supervision of access? Should there be superv ision? What about a case of the matter going to court? Who will undertake the court costs? Poor people involved , how can they possibly pay court costs and so on? There are a lot of detailed questions that could be asked. I think that there have been group s in our society, in Manitoba, who have spoken out on this particular problem from time to time. Include d in that is the coalition deal ing with matters pertaining to fam ilies. 1992

Friday, October 7, 1988 The various groups are: the Advisory Council on the Status of Women, the Charter of Rights Coaliti on, Manitoba Branch.

Incide ntally, that coalition makes up many groups including the Elizabeth Fry Society of Ma nitoba, the Immigr ant Women 's Asso ciation of Manitoba, the Junior League of Winnipeg, The Manitoba Action Commi ttee on the Status of Women, the Manitoba Advisory Council on the Stat us of Women, the Manitoba Association of Women and the Law, the National Action Committee on the Status of Women, the Provincial Council of Women, the United Church of Cana da and the Young Women's Chr istian Association.

So indeed , it is a very broad spectrum of society, many, many groups in this coalition who have concerns about this aspect of family law and about the general question of access enforcement. We have some concerns generally about the Bill. We want to be sure that there be full passage of these amendments and impl ementation of its various parts, various components before the pilot project is actually under way by the staff. We do not want to allow for any starts that may be deemed to be false later.

We do not want to see any chaos in the system. lt wou ld not do well if we did not get this legislation firmly establis hed before the program itself took off. We are concerned also about adequate funding of the program to ensure that there is adequa te compensation and specifically as it relates to custodial parents. We want to make sure that compensation provisions do prevai l. Both sections of Bill No. 11 refer to compensation apparently .

Ther e is mention of -1 am qu ot ing, "reimbur sement to the appl icant for any reasonable expenses actually incurred as a result of the wrongful denial of acc es s." I think ther e has to be some clarification of that. We want to ensure tha t this particu lar Bill adequ ately compensates whatever that may be, both the child care costs and the inconvenience. We want to ensure that it include s compensation for such things as job loss or loss of seniority as a result of parents who, for whatever reason, do not show up, for late shows or no shows.

We have another concern and this has been raised by the Advisory Council on the Status of Women, about the referral of the custod ial parent to the access enforcement lawyer. lt is their view that it is essential where access enforcement through the program is denied to the access parent, because the caseworker assesses enforcement to be detrimental to the child. The representation made by the Charter of Rights Coalition, I belie ve they have made representation to the Attorney -General (Mr .

Mc Crae), and in their document they state, and I am quoting, "the Charter of Rights Coalition, otherwise known as CORC" -C- 0-R-C-"r emains of the opinion that referral of the custod ial parent to the access enforcement lawyer is ess ential where access enforcement thro ugh the program is denied to the access parent, because the caseworker assesses enforcement to be detri mental to the child." I think what this is saying is that where the worker assesses that a child is at risk and where access has to be enforced, surely there is responsibil ity on the part of the Attorney -General or wha tever Government department, perhaps the Departmemt of Communit y Services, to make sure that any risk is alleviated if not elimina ted entir ely.

We are also concerned about the confidentiality and privile ge aspects. How can we be sure that the data that is brought forward, is in confidential mediation, remains private, remains privile ged. If it is subpoenable, how can we guarantee that necessary and appropriate variation in orders occurs, if the caseworker reports are not subp oenable? We have been able to ascertain from the press release and from the legislation, we have been able to ascertain that the legislation does not really indicate whether the caseworker reports wou ld be su bpoenable. So there are some of the specific concerns we have.

I think it is important that we all take a serious look. However, as I was ind icating earlier at our entire family law protection, to ensure that both parties are being treated fairly. I do not have any proposals to bring forward by way of an amendment at this ti me. However, there may be other Members on this side who may wish to move amendments, but we have to continue to find ways to improve, to enhance, to somehow or other upda te and renew our commitment to legislation and programs in the family law area. We will be urging the Government also to be tabling the White Paper on Family Law.

So with those few remarks, Mr. Speaker, I will sit down and perhaps other Members of the Legislatur e may wish to contribute to the debate. Mr. Speaker: lt is my understanding that it will rem ain standing in the name of the Honourable Member for Churchill (Mr. Cowan). (Stand) BILL NO. 14- THE RE GULATIONS ACT Mr. Speaker: On the prop osed motion of the Honourable Attorney-General (Mr. McCrae), Bill No. 14 , The Regula tions Act;

Loi sur les textes reglementair es, standing in the name of the Honourable Member for St. James (Mr. Edwards). Mr. Paul Edwards (St. James): I do not intend to speak at great length about this Bill. I think it is largely, if the term can be used, a housekeeping piece of legis lation. However, it is very important and I want to speak briefly on the importance of regulations, in general , as a specific type of legislation which, in my view and I think in the view of many, is largely the most important in that the body of regulations in this province and in this country impact on all of us on a day-to day basis.

They are the bulwark, if you wi ll, of our legal system. • (11 40) The statu tes and indeed the Charter of Rights and our Constitution are the more well known and certai nly the more di scussed , but the regulations are the vast majority of pages and print and sections in regulations. They are the day-to-day workings of how the thoug hts and the princi ples of our statu tes and our Constitution are worked out in day-to-day life. (The Acting Speaker, Mr. Parker Bur reil, in the Chair.) 1993

Friday, October 7, 1988 This body of law is no exception in Manitoba. lt is an extremely large body of law, for the purposes of exped iency and in allowi ng Governments to deal with situations as they arise and deal with all of the many, many things which our boards and our senior officials in our departments in Government must come up with.

In order to ensure the efficienc y of the working of statutes, it is necessary to delega te the authority to make re gulations. lt is necessary to dele gate them to the particular boards that we set up as a province. lt is also necessary, in certain circumstances, to delegate them to senior officials with the understanding that within certai n time frames those regula tions will be broug ht to the attention of Cabi net and, as wel l, the House.

This piece of legislation deals with those specific concerns that we all must have as citi zens in a country where we want political accountabili ty for every law that impacts on us. We want to be able to know that our elected representatives, if not involved directly in the making of a regu lation are at the very least very .. shortly thereafter involved in the approval of that , regulation and in the review of it. As I have said, we are for purposes of expediency and effi ciency in our society forced to trust our boards and our senior officials.

That has not proven obviously a great problem. lt simpl y allows Governments to continue to function in very complex societies in which the level of re gulation of all of our activiti es, and the regulation of busine ss and the regulation of all sectors of our society has continued to grow. I think many of us wish that it was not so cumbersome, and wish that we had not so many regu lations and that we were not so regula ted . But I think if we stop and reflect, we will see that certainly there are examples of ones that are not needed and that go beyond what any reasonable Government would want.

But by and large, in that we have become a more complex society, we have become a more sophisticated society, and the role of Government has increased of necessity, I would say, in many sectors as dif ferent problems arise and as we become better as a civil ization a. in a society at protecting rights and ensuring that we I' all can function in as much harmony as is possibl e. Traditional ly, in the regula tions area, there has been a problem with acces sibilit y in organi zat ion of regulations.

As the biggest body of laws in this province and in most common-law ju risd ictions, and I do not think Manitoba is any exception, the body of laws that arguably has the greatest impact on the day-to-day lives of Manitobans, this problem of accessibili ty and of organization has been the su bject of intense study throughout the common-law world. I am not sure that there have been any absolute conclusions come to. I think what comes to mind in the ul ti mate answer is it is one of cost.

Do we, as a society, want to make the cost, make the commitment to ensuring the accessibil ity of these regu lations to non lawyers, primaril y because you go to law school and one of the things you learn-a nd belie ve me it takes many months if not years to do that-is how to use a law lib rary. Real ly many say that is the best thing you learn in law school. Frankly, probably the most 1994 usefu l thing you learn is how to find your way through the various consolidations of statutes and abridgm ents to find out what the law is.

We are all, I think, working in this day and age to make that simpler and to allow accessibili ty to the laws to people who simply have an interest , have a concern so that they can find out what the state of the law is. The seco nd aspect of tha t is wha t role do es Government play in specifically informing members of the public as to what laws and regula tions are coming into effect? I see the gentlemen on the other side are making comments about farmers and turkeys.

I assume they are talking about the regulations impacting on that area and I can sym path ize with the numb er of regu lations which cover that area. The regulations in this province have not been outside of that criticism. They have been inaccessible to many. Today they st ill are and they remain that way. One sugge stion that I would make is that the laws of this province, including the regula tions, be made fu rther accessible through the computer systems or through actually placing them in the major libr aries in this province. That is something that I have always been concerned about.

The laws are here in this House. They are in the great libr ary over at the cour thouse. The y are in most of the major law firms. They are in the law school, but they are not in the publi c lib rary. If we belie ve that people have a right to know the state of the law, we should be placing the se in the public libr aries. We should be trai ning people in the public li braries to help people weed their way through the jungle, the maze, and find what they are looking for. lt is extremely important that we protect that.

I recall my own experience and I think that of many others who perhaps want to find out something about the state of the law and go to find it, and it literally does take hours, if not days, to find it. lt is a very important exercise to promote amon gst the cit izens of any common-law jur isidiction, and I think tha t is something that we warit to look at in particular with respect to regulations. · This Act, in that it provides in

Section 2(4) for the avai labili ty of regula tions for in spection with the Registr ar, somewhat addresses this concern but, to my mind, having a copy with the Registrar of Regula tions, tha t is another thing tha t the non-legally trai ned Manitobans are simply not going to do. They are not going to know about the Regis trar of Reg ulations. They are not going to attend the office during office hours and find out the regul ations. Tha t really is, in my view, a lame attempt to make the regula tions accessi ble to Manitobans.

I go back to the opportun ity we have, I think, in the pu blic libr ary system to make those accessible to every day Manitobans. Let us face it, that is a stated thrust of this Government in their Speech from the Throne. That is a stated thrust beh ind The Small Claims Amendment Act which we have seen before and I have already commented on. That is a thrust that we should be looking at, and it is a thrust that I think is progressive and that I will hope to bring forward at the committee stage. Again, Sect ion 4 talks about publ ica tion in the Gazette. The Gazet te sounds like the name of a

Friday, October 7, 1988 magazine that everybody gets, but that is not true. The Gazette is a very foreign docu ment to most people in this province. Lawyers know what the Gazette is because they read it. lt comes out and it tells you all the new things that have happened with respect to the state of the law in Manitoba. The fact is, the Gazette, despite its name, is not something that everybody knows about or everybody reads and, even if we did send it to every home in Manitoba, I suspect most, if not all, would not read it because it tends to be fairly boring reading.

However, if you are looking for something, for a specific regulation or something in a specific area that you are concerned about, you should be able to find it. The Gazette is poorly indexed and the state of the regulations as publ ished in the Gazette therefore are largely inaccessible. • (115 0)

Section 5 talks about the di spensing with publ ication in the Gazette. Even though I have criti cized the publ ication of the Gazette, I would hope that minor attempt at accessibili ty is not dispensed with on a regular basis. I would hope that is very spari ngly used . I would sugge st that really both the publ ication in the Gazette and the specific informing of affected groups that can be identif ied be done, not just relying on notice through the Gazette but rather for every regulation.

I suspect this is done in most if not all cases, looking out into society, seeing what groups will be specifically affected by this regulation and making the effort, taking the initia tiv e to advise them and put them on notice that this is coming forward and that this is going to be the state of the law. In most of these regula tions, we also all hop e that the officials in charge of coming up with the regulations have done consultation and have looked out into the community prior to bringing in the regula tion to solicit opinions as to the need and what the actual content of any regulation should be. (Mr.

Speaker in the Chair.)

Section 8 points out that basically the Lieutenant Governor-in-Council has to have the regulations brought to his notice. That in effect is the Cabinet, one would think and hope. On a monthly basis, in essence, one would hope that Cabine t reviews these regulations and each particular Minister looks at them for completeness so that particular Minister can be completely up to date on what the state of the regulations are. Ultima tely, all or most, if not all, regulations are brought to the attention of the House and that is set out in

Section 12. Again because of the sheer volume of regula tions, the House does not debate these on a regular basis, but one hopes that the Cabi net and the Min ister in charge does take the ini tia tiv e and specifically review these and keep up with the state of the law and understands who or what board within his particular portfolio has the power to make regulations. lt is an extremely important function but it is also a function of great power. We tend to think that only the Legislature can make laws. In fact we have all kinds of boards and officials out there who make laws on a daily basis.

We, as a Leg islature, in a particular Cabi net being resp onsi ble for those depar tments, have to continuously keep that in mind that ultima tely the buck stops in the House, and that the ultima te political accountabi lity is to your elected representatives and to the Cabi net. I have referred briefly to a pet project of mine for some time which has been the installation of Manitoba's laws and regula tions in major public li braries in this province and I simply reiterate that for the consideration of this House and the Attorney-General (Mr. McCrae), and I wi ll bring it forward at the committee stage.

I think it is important. I think we should have the trai ned people in public li braries to help Manitobans find laws which impact on them and which they are particula rly interested in. This Bill , we are, on this side of the House, pleased to support in that it continues in the deal ing with regulations and again, as in many of the other ones that I have spoken to, we appreciate the thrust of this pi ece of leg islation. We look forward to further dev elop ments and some inno vation and some imagination in this fiel d, which I think the overall area of the Attorney-General's Department could certainly use.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. QUESTION put, MOTION carried. BILL NQ 15- THE COOPERATI VE PROMOTION TRUST ACT Mr. Speaker: On the proposed motion of the Honourable Attorney-General (Mr. McCrae), Bill No. 15, The Cooperative Promotion Trust Act;

Loi sur le fonds en fiducie de promotion de la cooperation, standing in the name of the Honourable Member for The Pas (Mr. Harapiak). Mr. Harry Harapiak (The Pas): Mr. Speaker, there seems to be a willing ness in the House to call it 12 :30 p.m. Hon. James McCrae (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, I bel ieve Bill No. 15 can stand in the name of the Honourable Member for The Pas (Mr. Harapiak), and I belie ve he is cor rect that there is a will amongst Honourable Members to call it 12 :30 p.m. Mr.

Speaker: lt is agreed, therefore, that Bill No. 15 wi ll remai n standing in the name of the Honourable Member for The Pas (Mr. Harapiak). lt appears to be the will of the House to call it 12: 30 p.m. The hour being 12 :30 p.m., this House is now adjourne d and stan ds adjourned until 1: 30 p.m., Tuesday. I would like to wish everybody a good, long weekend, the Thanksgiving weekend coming forth. Heavy on the turkey, guy s. 1995

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Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	34-1-53
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	34th 1st hansardpdf 53.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
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Identifier	9f70202e56ed0d13c4edc02f46e3b2678ce492a8

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