Volum e 1 PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND THlRTY-SEVENTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND 1st. Session VERBATIM REPORT MONDAY, DECEMBER 8, 1975 SPEAKER; THE HONOURABLE GERAL.D RYAN OTTENHEIM.I:R Number 12

DPccemher f1. 1"7~. 1'11(' llouse met at l:f\'1 n.m . t·lr.· Speilker in the Chair. STATJ\HENTS FlY :MINISTE'l,S: 1!R. SP!':i\Kf:R: The hon. r!'inister of Tourism. Rll - 1 !TON. T. HTCYFY: Hr. Speaker, at this time I Hish to make the followin~ statement concerninp, the voyage of the Norma and G1Adys Hhich I am ,;ure hon. members ~~auld like to hear. J indicRted a fe~.r days ago I would he making this statement. T Am now in A position to pive details of her voyRr,e from this nojnt nn.

Th1s statement is all the more necessary in view of some of the rathPr mislearling Rod misinforMerl editorials and ne~.;s items th.1t have pl<lp:uerl this v0ya!J;e from the outset. Han. members will reca'] that we announcecl som<' time ago that tl1rough Arrangements with the Department of l'xternal Affain; ;md mv clr.partment the vessel would take

part in the International J\xposition to be he1cl in Japan at the turn of the new year lq76 and for the continuation of the voyape the vessel would proceed through the Suez Canal anrl Mediterranean, then to Great Gritain, returning to St. John's frnm Bristol, via Cabot's route. I 'vant to say at this point that the vessel will not be visitinr, .Japan. When arrangements were made between my department and the Department of External ,\ff,drs fnr thi.!l vnyagP it was ap:reed hy both parties that there would l1€' ioi.nt consul tat ion as the voyage progressecl.

Certain ports were A<>:reerl to ,,,here this kind of d:!.scussion would tal:e place, such as New Yorlc, Kinr,ston. Jamaica, P;mama, San Fransisco, and Japan. It was ar:r<'erl th:1t tl•e sc11Nlule of the vessf'l, her opf'rati nn, waul d he rev:!.ewecl ann appropri~te chan~es made if anythinr, significant should occur which woulrl reduce the effect i veness of the voyap:e. Tt is nmv Hell l<nm•m tbf!t on arrival in New York the main and foremast of the vessel \lere replaced as it was considered necessary as an additional sf!fety factor for veE<sPl and cre~-r in ordPr to complete the planned voyage.

This added safety precaution was taken in consultation with all concerned and it is indeed unfortunate that the time taken by tel<' shipyard to effect those chan~es was lonp.er than estimated. 995

December 8, 1~75. Tape 398 RH - 2 ~m. HICKEY: There was some doubt of here arriving in Japan at this point. However, both parties felt the performance of the vessel in terms of speed on a long leg of her journey such as the distance between New York and Kingston, Jamaica, was difficult to determine absolutely with the remaining time left as to whether or not she should reach Japan in time. Although here voyage from New York to Kingston was most satisfactory with the

schedule still so tight, the inability of the dockyard at Kingston to accommodate the vessel for inspection and routine maintenance before entering the Pacific made it necessary for her to go to Panama to the U.S. Naval dockyard to have the necessary maintenance and inspection carried out. The necessity of having to deal •41th the only dockyard available in Panama and a further delay of one week made it absolutely clear that except for perfect conditions at sea the vessel could not make Japan in time for Canada Day.

In view of the fact that External Affairs had chosen the vessel to he it's main exhibit at the Exposition they could not take chances of the possibility of delay which would have made it impossible to find a replacement for the vessel in terms of an exhibit for the Law of the Sea. At that point a clear-cut decision was made between External Affairs and myself that the vessel be redeployed to fulfill its role to carry its message at the Law of the Sea and as a good-will ambassador for the Province, promoting our trade, industry and tourism.

Our joint decision was reached after consultation with my colleagues, based on enthusiastic reception of the vessel at the ports of Halifax, Boston, New York and Kingston. At the ports of Boston and New York, for example, Mr. Speaker, some 12,000 people visited the vessel. The Norma and Gladys will now undertake an alternate voyage to fulfill her intended purpose by calling at the following ports: Antigua, Cape Verde Islands; Naples, Italy; Marseille, France; Barcelona, Spain; Lisbon, Portugal; Bordeaux and St.

Malo, ~ranee; Rotterdam, Holland; Gdansk, Poland; Leningrad, Russia; Helsinki, Finland; Copenhagen, Sweden; Goteborg, Sweden; Oslo, Norway; London, Portsmouth, and Bristol. Before her return voyage she will follow Cabot's route. 996

December 3, 1975 Tape no. 399 Page 1 - mw SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. HICKEY: It is still planned, Mr. Speaker, that she follow Cabot's route from Bristol to St. John's, and there is no doubt at this moment, at least, barring unforeseen circumstances, that she tvill not arrive as planned on June 24, 1976. At the ports Hhich this vessel visited, both Cauda's message of the Law of the Sea and the general promotion of Newfoundland and Labrador, has received excellent coverage by the media of those countries.

A feature story in The New York Times is an example, as well as a proclamation of Netvfoundland Schooner Days while the vessel was in port by the Mayor and City Council of greater New York. The redeployment of the vessel on its now planned voyage will still produce invaluable exposure to the Province,effectively carry Canada's message of the Law of the Sea,and greatly enhance historical value of the vessel as a floating museum. The voyage is financed on a cost-shared basis between the Government of Canada and the government of this Province. AN HON. MEMBER: How much did it cost? "!R. HICKEY: Fifty-fifty.

Do you mean operational costs? AN HON. MEMBER: Sixty-forty. '1R. SMALLWOOD: Mr. Speaker - "!R. SPEAKER: Order, please! The hon. gentleman for Trinity - Bay de Verde had previously risen. MR. F. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, just a few short comments. The statement by the minister is indeed regrettable and not altogether unexpected, Sir, it is obvious that the plans - there was ill-preparation for this particular voyage, and the planning was poor for the particular voyage, and we still maintain that it is a needless expenditure - "!R. SPEAKER: '"fR. F. ROWE: MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! - of the Province's money.

Order, please! 997

December 8, 1975 Tape no. 399 Page 2 - mw MR. SPEAKER: The hon. gentleman, I am sure, is m~are that in commenting upon a ministerial statement he may ask questions, ask for clarification and make what the authorities refer to as a few brief remarks or comments. What the exact definition of remarks or comments is it is not my duty to go into, but it is quite clear that the remarks or comments do not include debate. MR. F. ROWE: Well, Mr. Speaker, I will try to stay as closely as I can to your ruling. It is very difficult to be any more brief than I am being at the present time.

Probably I can put my statement in the form of a question or ask questions or make a few brief comments.

Sir, probably the minister should consider in this day of restraint, at both the federal and the provincial level, consider cancelling altogether the redeployment,if you will, of the voyage of the Norma and Gladys , because the minister listed off a great number of countries that will be visited by the Norma and Gladys, and it is our strong feeling, Sir, that it is in this day of restraint a waste of the taxpayers' money, and it is certainly not a priority item to have this ship travelling all over the world at this present time.

Now, Sir, if I go any further, I will probably be entering into the realm of 4ebate so that is the only comment that I have on the ill-voyage of the Norma and Gladys. MR. SPEAKER: The han. member for Twillingate. MR. SMALLWOOD: Hr. Speaker, if I may, I would like to congratulate the minister on the decision to cancel the voyage to Japan. I must say I always thought it was crazy. But the new plan is excellent, it seems to me, excellent. This is really good stuff to have a Newfoundland schooner call into ten or twelve seaports in Euorpe, with which we have a lot more to do than we do with Japan and the Far East.

I congratulate him. HR. DOODY: Now there is the difference between a statesman and a politician. ORAL QUESTIONS: MR. SPEAKER: The han. the member for LaPoile, HR. NF.ARY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to put a question to the 998

..t. Oecembe r 8 , 1975 Tape no. 399 Pa~e J - mw ~!ini ster of I ndustr ial Development, Sir. Would the mini ste r tnfo rm the House if his government intends now to follow the plan put forwa rd by t he member for Fortune Say {Mr. Winsor) or the memheT foT Bur~eo - Bay d ' Espoir (Mr. Simmons) in connection 1~ith the fish plant in Surgeo? HR. SPEAKER: The hon . Ministe r of Industrial Development. ~IR . LUNDRIGAN: Mr. Speaker , certainly 999

December 8, 1975 Tape No. 400 NM - 1 MR. LUNDRIGAN: the member for Fortune, whatever plan he announced, it certainly would not be accepted by this government. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Burgeo~Bay d'Espoir. MR. SIMMONS: A question for the Minister of Industrial Development. I understand he did visit Burgee over the weekend and I wonder would he indicate whether the visit helped him make up his mind as to what course of action will be followed or,more particularly,if he is in a position today to indicate wha~ plan of action will be followed insofar as the fish plant at Burgee is concerned? MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Industrial Development. MR. LUNDRIGAN: Your Honour there is no statement I could make today to give any categorical decision. I did make a trip to Burgee the weekend and I had a marvellous experience. I met a tremendous number of very fine Newfoundlanders who are very industrious, carrying on a marvellous effort in prosecuting the fishery, processing fish and it was a marvellous experience for me to meet the people there, to reassure them that the government have all the intentions in the world of providing adequate facilities for processing fish in their community.

I have had an opportunity as well to travel along the South Coast in one of the dragp,ers for a half a dozen hours, which was again an experience I would like to commend to the bon. gentlemen representing the people ' there - MR. NEARY: - Tories district. MR. LllliDRIGAN: - at our pleasure, SO}ffi HON. }ffi}~ERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. LUNDRIGAN: And I would like to say, Sir, that the people, the representatives of the people, the town council and the union representatives and myself met.

We had a very frank discussion and exchange and I was quite satisfied that the people have total clarification on the position of the government, that we are having a look ourselves, without deviating from the general direction that we have taken, we are having a look at the refurbishing concept. There are people in Burgeo at the moment, 1000

Tape No. 400 N~l - 2 ''I'. Ll'N!WT(:AN: three enp,ineE'rs and other representatives, 1•ho Hi 11 h:1ve a report tn perhaps a Neck for me :md 1·.•e •·!ill he ahle tn m:1h:• ,, definitivP statement, would say, before r.hristmas • .or: . SPF.AKF.P.: _ The hon. member for Burp,eo-Bay d 'F.spoir. I wonder would the minister indic~te whether having seen the condition of the present facilities- I understand he did tnur the f~c'ilities at llurr:eo - ~<•ould he he in a position to in,dicate "'hethrr hP 1~ nm·• of the opinion that the plant can be refurbished? "P . SPEAKER: ThE' hon. "inister of Industrial nevelopment. "P.

I.tTNTWIGAN: ~'r. Sneaker, unlike the hon. gentleman I would not nrrsume to pnk<• mv nose into an area of technical - A ~, ha! Ah, ha! '"' SPEAKF:P: 11rde r, please! ·~· _ _!.:.IP\fnPIGA"': s kill and capahi 11 ty. SPEAKF'.P: "rder, pl Ntse!

Thnt is the renson we have enf!;ineers in 1lur11:eo at th!' moment, professional people tvho will be makinr; professional assessment to reassure government and the people of Newfoundland that the direction o f puhltc spend'in r. 1n the community 1vill be within the means of government and the hest utll ization of public funds from the point of view of all of : h. • p<'ople of th<:' ProvincE'. "" ~ PEAKF. r:: The hon. member for T.aroile. --- - ----- "R. NF.A'RY: 'lr. Srenker, T tvould like to put a question, Sir, to the ·----- ' ' I ni s t <'r of Tran~rortation and r.ommunications.

Would tht.> minister tell the llous (.' , after doing a little soul searchin~ over the weekend. if the I'Por>l" of this Pro vi neE' c "n he assured not.• that thP roads are r.o in r to t>r ~dPnu:ttel v t al· en care of in the eyent th:tt we h<tve ice or snow from now on durinp. the rest of the "inter, and tvhat plans the minster has? !;; his t Ho shift svstem no"' in effect? "11. ~PEAKE'P. : The han. l'inister of Transportation and Communications. 1001

~ecember 8, 1975 Tape No. 400 NM- 3 l ~. ~ORGfu~: Yes, ¥r. Speaker, the two shift system is now into effect a~ of midnight last night, and as of necember 17 we shall have a three crew system which I feel confident will provide an adequate ~ervice. '~. SPEAKER: The hon. member for F.agle River. ''1'1.

STRACHAN: A !]Uestion for the Minister of t~ines and Energy. r.ould the ministPr indicate 1~hether he has taken into consideration for compensation the losses and inventory costs incurred hy the companies and small businesses in the Happy 'ralley-Goose Bay area, created by the closure of ~~ork at Gull Island, a ,partiallist of which I have here? HR. SPEAKER: The hon. Ninister of Mines and Energy. l·IR. CROSIHE: It 1vould certainly be premature to say that we are considering anything of that nature until we have the facts of the situation and that there has been losses and so on is certainly to be proven as yet.

But apart from that I have been a1vay myself and the hon. Government House Leader has been lookinr, into some questions in this connection. He might amplify my answer. AN RON. ~¥BF.R: Not a nickel, eh, Johft? tiR. SPEAKER: The hon. ~inister without Portfolio. J..'ll. WF.LLS: Yes, ~fr, Speaker, I ought to I think as it is all part and parcel of the same answer, a question that 1vas asked last 1-reek by the hon. memhPr. HP wanted to know, t·rr. Speaker, how many men were laid off as a result of a deferment.

I think I should give the total figures of men Hho Here employed by the area's contractors, because some were laid off because contracts were finished an~vav. l'p there were cm">loyed altogehter - Bona Vista Food Services - 49 employees, 44 of whom were from Newfoundland; Lundrigans - 213 employees, 212 of the~e rvere from Nervfoundland; O'Connell's - 67 employees, who ~Jere all from Newfoundland and Woodward's- 7 employees, all from Nervfoundland. 1002

December 8, lq7J, Taoe 401, Page 1 -- apb MR. WELLS: O'Connell's contract, that is the one for part of the road contract, was completed so, of course, his employees. were laid off but they would have been laid off anyway. Likewise Woodward's contract was completed. If his employees are laid off they would have been laid off anyway. Th~ Lundrigan organization had fifty men employed on the construction of the main camp. These are the only men who were laid off as a result of the deferment.

The other men that were laid ' off bv Lundrigans would have been laid off anyway because the road contract was virtually finished and was scheduled to be finished bv the 19th of December. So we are really only talking about - and Bona Vista Foods Services' men are going to be kept on anyway, Mr. Speaker, kept on the site to service the people who will be hired by local contractors to provide security for the camps. So the only neonle •Y'ho have bern laid off directly as a result of the deferment are the fHtv neople who were p,oing to work on the campA for Lundrilians Limited.

Tnsofar as the other question, as the Minister of Mines has said, it is much too early yet purely on the basis of reports to su~gest compensation for anybody who might have planned to supnly services of one kind or another. But I would assure the hon. member that the thing is in hand and being looked at and in fact we have scheduled a meeting with the businessmen concerned and the general nublic in Hanny Valley on Wednesday night coming when the whole thing can be thnrnup,hlv discussed and the nature of the problem hopefully indentified and banefully resolved. MR. STRACHAN: '!r. Speaker a supplementary. 1-'R.

SPEAKF.R: The han. gentleman for Eagle River, MR. SMALUIOOD: Mr. Sneaker - MR. , SPF.Al{F,R: t a1'1 snrrv to interrupt the hon. J!;entleman. I recoJ!;nized the gentleman on a supplementary. ~R. STRACHAN: loYoul d the minister indicate to us ~1hat ministers will, be taking

part in the meeting on Wednesday night? MR. HELLS: Certainly everyone who has not got some prior commitment and may be directly concerned·.with the matter will be there. Tt is too early yet to say who will be there. This is a matter we are 1003

December 8, 1975, Tane 401, Page 2 -- apb sorting out amongst ourselves. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the member for Twillingate. MR. SMALLWOOD: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the bon. the Premier and the bon. the Minister of Mines and Energy to both o~ whom, I believe, I have addressed questions that are on the Order Paper,of which I gave notice, can assure me that before the debate takes place on the resolution in the name of the hon. the Minister of Mines and Energy on the whole Churchill affair I can have answers to these pretty essential questions because they do have a bearing on the debate. MR.

SPEAKER: The bon. the Premier. PREMIER MOORES: Mr. Speaker, as I intimated in the House last week we will do our utmost to have as many of the questions pertaining to that issue.as possible done this week. But to say that all the questions will be answered before the debate comes before the House is~I am afraid, not possible to undertake absolutely. But certainly all the information that we can possibly get to~ether will be available before hand. MIL SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Twillingate. MR. SMALLWOOD: Mr.

Speaker, I referred in my question to the hon. the Premier and the minister only to matters affecting Churchill,not the whole range of questions - some of these I know will not be answered for weeks - but those dealing with Churchill Falls. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER MOORES: My reply was in that vein, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Tourism, Sir. Could the minister indicate to the House what the cost will be to the taxnayers of this Province of the new

schedule of the Norma and Gladys, her new tour~ what the cost will be to the taxpayer of this Province? AN HON. MEMBER: MR. SPEAKER: MR. HICKEY: MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker - The han. Minister of Tourism. Approximately $150,000, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. Would the minister undertake to get the cost so far to the taxpayers of this Province of the voyage of the Norma and Gladys? 1004

Oecember 8. 1975, Tape 401, Page 3 -- APb lo1R. ~Pf.AKF.R: 'IR. HTCKEY: The ' hon . the Minister of Touris~. Mr. Speaker, t.l~ke all othPr ministers are answerahle to the Ho~~e for my estimates and the Norma and Cladys without a doubt will be debated in full when that time comes. MR. SP£AJ<ER: The hon. the member for Bav of Islands. HR. WOODROW : I would like to ask,Mr. Speaker, a ouestion of the Minister of H·unicipal Affai r s and Housing. What is the present status of the LrP programme fo r the Curling area? !1R. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Municinal Affairs and Housing. 1005

December 8, 1975 Tape 402 PK - 1 MR. PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to be able to say to the hon. member for Bay of Islands (Mr. Woodrow) that indications this mornin~ and over the weekend are that the NIP agreement for the Curling area will be signed within the next couple of days, and it gives me great pleasure to be able to inform the bon. member of that agreement. SOME HO~~-M!_MBERS: Hear, hear! ~- ~EAKER: The hon. member for Trinity-Bay de Verde. MR~-~ ROWE:_ Mr.

Speaker, on Wednesday or Thursday of last week I put a question to the House Leader asking him whether he would indicate some information regarding these companies or contractors that are in any way associated with the Gull Island project or the Lower Churchill project, the names of these companies who have or are or will be lavinl!: off employees~ . Am I to take it that the answer he gave just a few minutes ago is an answer to that question, because if it is not I have a supplementary? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Kilbride. MR.~LS: It is indeed, Mr. Speaker. I am sorry. It was the- MR. F.

ROWE: All right, but - MR.~S: ~ hon. member who asked the question. When I was answering it I thought it had been asked by the member for Eagle River (Mr. Strachan), but it was the hon. member who asked, and that is the answer, yes. MR._~ _ROWE: I was not asking for recognition, Mr. Speaker. I "'onder if the minister could indicate whether or not Shawmont have laid off people in Labrador or on the Great Northern Peninsula? MR. r.ROSRTF:: Giv:' us time. MR . SPEAKER: The hon. member for Kilbride. _MR~WY.LLS : This we can find out. I am not sure at this stage. MR. F. ROWE: Well a further supplementary, Mr.

Speaker. ~· WE~LS: That was the information- MR~ - ~~ ROWE: Could the minister or the Minister of Mines and Energy undertake to get the accurate information as to all 'the companies that are involved or associated in any way - 1006

'l December 8, 1975 Tape 402 PK - 2 that are laying off people as a reeult of this deferment? HR. SPEAKF.R: . -------- The han. Minister of Mines and Energy. }!R. J. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, the affects of the deferment are ·--------- Rtill heing considered, and the programme for the rest of this I vear and next year is under review. Now when this matter comes up to be discussed in the House any information we have will be brour,ht forward. The han. member for Trinity-Bay de Verde. HR. F. ROWE: -- - ------ Hr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing.

In view of the fact that people living in incorporated areas and working in other incorporated areas do not have to pay taxes in both of these areas,would the minister indicate what is being done for the people who live in waste disposal areas and who work in other incorporated areas who do have to pay taxes in both these areas? I believe the regulations are silent on it. MR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Municipal Affaire and Housing. Mr. Speaker, in answer to that question,the past four or five months we have been studying very carefully that whole situation because there does seem to he some inequity there.

We have contacted and written the Department of Justice who has given us a legal opinion on it, and we have informed the local people in areas who have written in about it that the legal position is that they must pay in both areas. However in compiling our legislative amendments for the House, for the session in the Spring, we are now reconsidering the whole matter even in light of the legal

interpretation given to us by the Denartment of Justice. So where it stands right now is where we were six or seven months ago, we are not 1ust sure which wav WP shall move. Butit is under review right now and we hope to bring in legislation in the Spring to clear up the confusion that presently exists relative to that whole matter which is very bothersome especially in the area that the han. member represents. 1007

December 8, 1975 Tape 402 PK- 3 MR. SPEAKEF: The han. member for LaPoile. MR.~~ NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I want to put a question to the Minister of Mine~ and Energy. Sir, would the minister tell the House what action his government has taken to get the price of gas and heating fuel under control of the Province? MR.~PEAKER: The hon. Minister of Mines and Energy. MR._C_ROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, as always we are in close touch with the companies in question, and they have agreed with us that they would not be increasing prices without prior consultation. We are studying legislation in effect in other provinces.

We just had down here a team from the Province of Nova Scotia to review with our officials their experience there in the last year or two, with their Public Utilities Commission. I think they had a three hour review on Friday, I believe it was. This matter is under careful review We have also been told by the oil companies that there will be no increase in prices without prior consultation with us, and we have been successful in inducing them not to increase certain prices with respect to oil products sold in barrels in the last few months. In addition there is a meeting of the Ministers of Energy, Mr.

Speaker, of Canada, in Ottawa on Friday, where the question of oil prices is one of the subjects that is g6ing to be reviewed in detail, and T·•hE'n r~e will be discussing with the federal minister on what plans the federal government might have in that respect. There is a meeting of the officials on Thursday and a meeting of the ministers on Friday. So as ever we are constantly endeavouring to keep this matter under stricL control and review. In addition to which 1008

Tape 403 RH - 1 HR. CROS~IF.: ~·Tr. Speaker, thPre will he legislation he fore the Fouse hefore this session terminates in this connection. ~'R. SPF.AKER: The hoD. member for Trinity-Bay de Verde. NR. ROl-lE: A supplementary to the Hinister of Municipal Affairs :mel Housing, :-lr. Spealcer, 1vith respect to his answer. Am I safe in assuming that the ministP.r's off:l.cials are givinp.: sympathetic consicieration to treating the people in the waste ciisposal areas the same way as if they were indeed in an incorporated area? .:-IR. SPEAKER: The hon. minister. MR. PFCKFORD: "'r.

Speaker, I did not want to get into the rletail.s of the prohlem. But it must be recognizerl that when a person who lives in a waste disposal area and pays a fee for the collection of garbage in that waste disposal area and then he goes to a municipality and is forced to p11y a service fee in that municipality that he is not payinp. iust for, he is not paying twice for waste disposal. Service fee covers many other things rather than waste disposal in a given area. So one must recognize that there is not a duplication of payment for the same service.

There is a partial duplication and it depends upon the municipality how great that partial is. I can just repeat that we :Jre very, very familiar with the situati.on that has been related to mP. tociay hy the hon. member, that we are assessing our positioD relative to what the legal opinions of the Department of Justice are, relative to the comments, suggestions that have come from the district in question 1 and we will hopefully be bringing in legislation in the Spring to try to clarify and make the facility better than it presently is. HR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for LaPoile. 'IR. NEARY: Hr.

Speaker, J 1mnder if the Hinister of Municipal Affairs and llousin~, Sir, could tell the !louse what action his government has t<~ven on putting a freeze on rents in this Province or bringing in a system of rent controls in accordance with the federal guidelines 1009

December 8, 1075. Tape 403 that have heen laid dmm in the hattle against inflation? ~'R. SPEAKER: - The hon. minister. RF - 2 Nl!. PECKFORn: Mr. Speaker, since 1 q73 the Province of Ner.rfoundland has had rent control. The present programme annunciated hy the Pe~eral r~vern~ent in relation to rent control is one that oscillates from day to day.

They are trying to get some kind of agreement between all the Provinces)which is quite unlikely in view of the fact of the present position put forward by Alberta a few days ago and the present unsure situation in ~ritish Columbia and in some other provinces >There they are bringing in some form of rent control for the first time. Right no1v it is the feeling of government that our present rent control legislation is sufficient.

The Federal Government were suggesting originally that a R per cent ceiling, if you will, he put into effect, 1.rhich automatically becomes the floor, because there could be places where a landlord would only need to put up his rents 4 or 5 per cent. If you put an 8 per cent in he automatically gets the 8 per cent. So there are arguments on both sides. Fe have rent controL It seems to be working well in the Province, that the average increases in rents over the past year or so have been in fact not that far out of line with the guidelines only announced since nctoher 14th.

We are constantly monitoring the situation as it rel.ates to rents and vacancy rates in the city here and in Corner Brook. If we see th~t there is any great departure from the present guidelines as outline~ hy the Federal Government, then we will take action. But we will not take action just as a matter of course of going along with the principle ;,nnunciated hy the Federal Government which in fact may not he out of line already in this Province even though the stringent controls are not there. AN HON. ~!EMBER: Hear! Hear! Mi. SPEAKER: The hon. member for LaPoile . MR.

NEARY: A question to the hon. the Premier, Sir. Would the hon. 1010

Tape 403 Rll - 3 the Premier tell the Honse if the governm ent has made another offer to the employees of the J.inerhoard mill in Stephenville and if ~o woulrl the Prem:l~r provide the House with details and if there is any genuine attemnt heinA made to settle this dispute? 'IR.. SPf.I\J<:P.R: The hon. l'r emier. PREIUF.R MOORF.S: To my knowlerlp,e, Hr. Speaker, we have not made any other offer. T think tlje Uncrboa rd and the othe r two companies really arP in the same position as are the three unions. tffi . SPEAKF.R: ThP hon. member fo r F.ap.le River . Wt. r.

S't'MCIIA.~ : I wish ·to direct my question to the ~!inister of Nines and F.ncrgy. r.ould the minister indicate whether there have been any discussions between his department and IIRIN'F.X J.imited concerninA their nlans for devP.lopmen t next year of their uranium site at Kit ' s rond and Michel ta~e? HR. SPFAKF.R: Tht> hon . minister for Mines and Energy. 1011

Deeember. 8, 197 s·, Tape 404, Pa~e 1 -- apb MR. CROSB'IR: There have been discussions and we have whatever information is available on it. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Forestry and A~rieulture, Sir. Will the minister tell us now what is bein~ done to try to get the spruce bud worm under eontrol in this Provinee and the hemloek looper? Is there any programme underway now to try to eliminate the spruee bud worm in particular? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Forestry and A~rieulture. MR. ROUSSEAU: Mr.

Speaker, right now it is certainly a eause of eoneern to us. As I understand it in attempting to review this situation it is steady pretty well out on the West Coast. They have been some increase in infestation in Central Newfoundland and we are eontinuing with our now existing poliey of attempting to provide forest aceess roads to get in and eut down the ~ood before it rots. We have not yet made a decision in respect to the question of spraying. That still remains an option but at this point in time we are attempting to harvest the wood before the wood rots.

The question of spraying, of eourse, will eontinue to be an option that we have but with the inerease in the number of forest roads we hope this pro~amme will enable us to salvage the wood before it rots. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for LaPoile. MR. I'IEARY: Sir, I have a question for the hon. the Premier, Sir. Would the hon. the Premier tel! the House, inform the House what aetion his government has taken on a promise that thP Premier made in the House last session to staek the seniority, to staek the time on to veteran's time that they h<! d \!Orked less than ten years?

If the Premier will remember there was legislation brought in whereby the serviee of a veteran who worked ten years or more would be staeked on to his, you know, added on to his time that he served in the publie serviee and the Premier promised that any amount of time, any number of years would be added on. He was going to bring in an amendment. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER MOORES : Mr. Speaker, any serviee that the veterans had overseas was bein~ ineoroorated into provincial pensions. The present question~ • .,. .. 2 J. 'J .J.

Oecember 8, 1975, Tape 404, Page 2 -- apb I am not sure if that were the answer of not - it is presently being studied by Treasury Board and the final reply when I receive it will be given to the bon. member. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, will the Premier inform the House what he intends to do about the recommendations in the Legion brief that was presented recently to the government - number one in connection with expropriating the property around the War Memorial; two exempting veterans from school taxes and municipal taxes, what action the government is taking on these recommendations? MR.

SPF.AKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER MOORES: As we .1ust received the brief last week, Jlfr. Speaker, obviously I will take notice of the question. ~uestions: MR. SPEAKF.R: The hon. the member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, would the Minister of Tourism, Sir, inform the House - I think this is under his department - what action the government is taking on a request from the Roval Canadian Lef!:ion, Branch No. 111 on BelJ Island, to have the Wabana J!:Un emplacement turned into a provincial historic site? 'IP.. SPF.AKER: The hon. the Minister of Tourism. 'IR. lHCKF.Y: Mr.

Speaker, I shall have to take that question under advisement. MR. SPF.AJ<ER: The bon. the member for LaPoile. MR. NFARY: - --- - Mr. SnPaker, I wonder if the Minister of Health, Sir, could tPll the Hottse just how serious the enidemic of infectious hepatitis is in the Province at the moment and if there is any plan to immunize the children esneciallv against this sickness? MR. SPFAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health. MR. H.A.COLLINS: I do not have the figure with me at the present time, Mr. Speaker, but I think I should make a statement now and say that there is no serious epidemic.

I do not want the press nor the people in this Province to be left with the impression that there is such a case existing. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the Minister of F.ducation. Would the minister inform the House if he J013

December 8, 1975, Tape 404, Page 3 -- apb received a report, the Jedore report in connection with the school needs of Northern Labrador and what action the government has taken on the recommendation that a high school be constructed at Nain in Northern Labrador? 1014

December 8, 1975 Tape no. 405 Page 1 - mw MR. SPEAKF.~: The hon. Minister of Education. MR. HOUSE: I have not received a full report on that. I understand that officials from the department were in Labrador two or three days ago, and I will be getting a report on that at which time I will give the information that is available. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to put a question to the hon. Premier, Sir. Would the han. Premier inform the House if his government have been asked to assist with additional financing for the 1977 Summer Games?

And while the Premier is on his feet, would he also inform the House the salary of Mr. Tom Doyle, the extent of his contract? Is this an established - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! What I wish to point out is that really only one question at a time should be asked. Now the Chair has been fairly lenient, perhaps, in permitting questions which might be more explanatory of what any hon. member was asking. But I would think that a distinct different question and should remain to be asked at a separate time. MR.

NEARY: Have the city council asked for additional financing for the Summer Games, the 1977 Summer Games? ~R. SPEAKER: The han. Premier. MR. F .MOORES: Mr. Speaker, I think it is probably too early to say, but the answer right now is, no, and, Mr. Speaker, I would hope it remains no. WP have made a very definitive commitment to the Summer Games Committee and to the city council. It is not the intention of government to add to that amount. The situation is now that we have not been asked by the city to my knowledge 1nor is it our intention to Rive additional monies to the Canada Games. SOME liON.

ME"'BERS : Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr. St>eaker, a supplementary: Would the Premier inform the House as to the duties and responsibilities of one Mr. Thomas Doyle in connection with the 1977 Summer Games? 101.5

December 8, 1975 Tape no. 405 Page 2 MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Premier. MR. F. MOORES: Yes, Mr. Speaker, as I understand it, Mr. Doyle, who had worked in my office some time previously, after the last election - MR. NEARY: He was unemployed. MR. F. MOORES: -where he lost to the han. member for twillingate (Mr. Smallwood) . was obviously looking for employment of one sort or another. Mr. Andrew Crosbie, the Chairman of the Games Committee, as I understand it, asked him to go to work for the Games as Chairman of The Friends of the Games, I understand. Mr.

Doyle was anxious to come to work with me in the capacity he had beenbefore. I would have very much liked him to have had him in that capacity, but as we all want to make our contribution to the Games, I thought it would only be proper, as Premier of the Province, to support the Games in whichever way we could. Mr. Doyle I did employ in the office as an executive assistant was seconded for two years to the Canada Summer Games so that he can do his thing as Chairman of The Friends of the Games, on behalf of all the people of the Province, in that capacity, Mr. Speaker. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR .

SPEAKER: The hon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary: Would the Premier tell the House what The Friends of the Games will be earning, and is it on a contractual basis or is it an established post? MR.F. MOORES: Mr. Speaker, as I understand it, The Friends of the Games is a fund raising organization for the Garnes itself, and I would hope that Mr. Doyle is so nccessful that the provincial government will not have to bail out the City of St. John's. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Twillingate. MR. SMALLWOOD: Mr. Speaker, could the Premier assure us that Mr.

Doyle will be kept in that job for, say,beyond the next general election? Or if not could he assure us that it will not be Twillingate he will be contesting? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Premier. 1016

December 8 , 1975 Tape no. 405 Page 3 - mw HR .F. MOORE~: It is unfortunate, Hr . Speaker, that I cannot ask the member of the Opposition a similar ouestion in this particular case. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Trinity - Bay de Verde. MR. F. ROI.'E: Mr. Speaker, probably this ouestion is best directed to the PTemier. Could the Premier indicate the status of the system of regional colleges planned for the Province as promised in the 1972 Throne Speech? ~R . SPEAKER: The hon. Premier. ~.F. MOORES: Not at the moment, Mr. Speaker. ~m . SPEAKER: The hon. member for Exploits. 'IR.IIlULROONEY: Mr.

Speaker, a question to the Mini.ster of Forestry and Agriculture . Could the Ministe r of Forestry and Agriculture state whether or not there has been a study done on the crop insurance plan for Newfoundland, and if so, has there been any plan t o extend the crop co v era~e to include bay and cabbage

whereas now it includes potatoes and turnip only? 1017

December 8, 1975, Tape 406, Page 1 -- apb MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Forestry and Agriculture. MR. ROUSSEAU: The hon. member has me and I have to take it as notice. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for LaPoile. I think I should point out that this will be the last ~uestion and answer at this time. MR. NEARY: This is the last question? I wish to direct my question, Sir, to the hon. the Premier, and I want to put this question to him before his has the birth certificate issued, Sir. Is he aware that the proper pronunciation is Stephen and not Stefan? I resent being called Stefan. MR.

SPEJ.KER: The bon. the Premier. PREMIER MOORES : It is all right, Mr. Speaker, the hon. member is not from Iceland. SOME RON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. SPEAKER: Motion 5. Motion,the hon. the Minister of Transportation and Communications to introduce a Bill, ''An Act Further To Amend The Highway Traffic Act •" carried. (Bill No. 12). On motion Bill No. 12 read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. MR. WELLS (House Leader) Motion No. 6, Mr. Speaker. On ~tion,the hon. the Minister of Justice to introduce a Bill, "An Act To Amend The Minimum Wage Act," carried. (Bill No. 11).

On motion Bill No. 11 read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. MR. WELLS: Motion 7. Motion, the bon. the Minister of Social Services to introduce a Bill, "An Act Respecting Family Allowances," carried. (Bill No. 10). On motion Bill No. 10. read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. MR. WELLS: Motion 1, }lr. Speaker. On motion that the Rouse resolve itself into Committee of the Whole to consider certain Bills, Mr. Speaker, left the Chair. 1018

December 8, 1975, Tape 406, Page 2 -- apb COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, olease! Tbe hon, the member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, we are still on the tax bill, I presume. Well, Sir, since the House rose the other day-or on Friday, Your Honour, we have a couple of more examoles of extravagance and waste on behalf of the government in the soending of the taxoayers monP.y that would militate against any increase in taxes at this oarticular time, Sir. One example we had out forward in this hon.

House today where the government intends to spend another $150,000 on this foolish voyage of the Norma and Gladys, and she is not even a banker. I would not mind, Sir, if she was - MR. WELLS: Point of order, Mr. Chairman. The debate on these resolutions is a debate as to whether or not the retail sales tax should be increased to 10 per cent in the category set forth. What the government now or at some future date does with the money is not really, Mr. Chairman, the subject that is under debate.

There is ample opoortunity in the Budget Debate or the Throne Speech debate or any of the general debates for the hon. member to deal with the matter of the Norma and Gladys. I think that is quite a separate question, Mr. Chairman. MR. NEARY: To that point of order, Mr. Chairman: Your Honour 1 I think the House has to hear argument as to why members are for or against this increase in the sales tax. For the last two days, I think, in this hon. House, Sir, members 1019

December 8, 1975 Mr. Neary. Tape 407 IB-1 have expressed their views on why they thought the tax should be not increased and gave reasons why they were voting ap.ainst it. I would submit that that is not a point of order, Your Honour, that the mem~er is merely trying to restrict debate in the hon. House and trying to muz?.le the Opposition. _!\11.. SPEAKE"P (nr. C:oll ins) : I think that H is accepted practice, at least I believe it is nuoterl in Beauchesne, that on a matter rising out of a bill of this order that the 1 atitude for debate is fairly wide.

I would think that the hon. member is in order on this point. SN'E HON. !-'E"''''ErS : Hear! Hear! 'iR. NEAPY: Thank you, Your Honour. Of course, Your Honour was reminded also the other day that the dehate on the budget is not even complete yet and here we are passing the tax hill. But, Your Honour, the government are asking the House to up the sales tax by another 2 per cent while they apparently, Sir, are still on this wild spending spree. nne example,as I indi.cated a few moments ago,was put forward in this hon. Uouse today in connection with this foolish voyage of the Norma and CJadvs.

It is not going to prove anythinp:. It is not r,oinp, to ~o any good for the taxpayers of this Province. There is nothing, Sir, to be had in return. }<p. HICKEY: 1~el1 1 we should not promote the Province then. l'r. ~ ~ F ,P Y: Sir, 1.f ~'e are going to promote the Province there are all kind r f other ways to do it. Mr. Chairman, I do not know if the Rouse is aware of it or not hut as far as I know, Sir, the government are proceeding ~rith plans to spend $200,000 on a golf course in Gander.

Here th y are, Sir, asking this House to approve an increase in the sales tax while we still have this kind of extravagance and waste going.on. And I do not think it is good enough, Sir. You know, Mr. Chairman, over in Ontario, :l.n the Prov:l.nce of Ontario, Sir, where they have money running out of their ears, the wealthy Province of Ontar:l.o, they set up recently a special committee to,study, Sir, ways to save money :l.n the Province of Ontar:l.o. Ann on November 21, ~rr. Chairman, the committee reported to the government of Ontario anc:1 came up, Your Honour, with ten ways to save 1020

necember ~. 1975 Mr. Neary. Tape 407 Ill-2 money as outlined in The Ottawa Citizen Friday, November 21. They came up ~·ith ten realistic, positive ways to 13ave money rather then sock it to the poor old taxpayer. Every province, Mr. Chairman, every province is thinking along the same lines today. They are trying to cut out tl1e extravagance and waste rather than increase taxes. Well, not in NewfoundlAnd!

Here we are here with the second lowest per capita personal income in the Whole of Canada, record unemployment, galloping inf] at ion - we have the reputation now of he:lng the :tnfJation capital of the world, of North America rather. You know, Mr. Chairman, I hear members get up in this House ancl say, Newfoundlanders do not cause inflation. Well, Sir, maybe I am stund but the economists keep telling us that anybody who overspends -and I do not think that Newfoundlanders are any exception - any municipality that overspends, any government that overspends contributes to inflation.

So, Sir, I do not think it is right, it is obscene, it is downright immoral for this government to come into this hon. Rouse and ask members to vote for a tax increase, for an increase in the sales tax when they have not yet taken a good hard look at ways and means to save money and to cut out the waste and the extravagance and the foolishness such as the ill-fated voyage of the Norma and Gladys. :MR. HIC:KEY: Too bad. You are some sorry. ~·P. NEARY: Yes, Sir, I am some sorry alright. "P. I!Ir.KEY: Kind of glad if she does not come back. 1-'Jl. NEARY: ~'r.

Speaker, the hon. member for Lewisporte (:1-'r. lolhite) asked one of the ministers there last we,ek, T think it was, about this golf course in C.ander. Is the government still going ahead with this f';Ol f course? MR. HICKEY: Ah, broaden your horir.ons, boy. VI'. NEARY: Broaden your horizons! A go1 f course for a few of the well-to-do! I suppose they ~1111 be getting golf clubs for Christmas, put in their stocking for Christmas, gett:lnp: ready to go out on the golf course in fiander next Su1111llt>r.

It w:l.ll not be for the ordinary people but :It is the ordinary people who will have to pay for it, Sir, throur,h th:ls increase in the sales tax. 1021

December 8, 1975. MR. NEARY: Tape 408 RR - 1 No, Sir, it ><ould he far better if this government took a positive approach and did something like they did in Ontario and set up a special committee to she>< the government how they can save money. If they can do it in wealthy Ontario, I am sure they can do it here in Newfoundland. m1at we shou:J,rl be doing, Sir, instead of cominF: into this hen.

Rouse and asking for increases in taxes, we should be debating ways to increase the Gross Provincial Product to increase productivity in this Province instead of having a negative attitude like we have of asking for increases in taxes. So, Sir, I could not help but getting up again today after the !llinisterial statement by the Ninister of Tourism, throwing another $150,000 down the drain. And I submit to you, Mr. Chairman, it will be muc~ more than that.

Sir, that voyage is going to cost the taxpayers of this Province close to $1 million) down the drain with nothing, no benefits in return and she is not even a banking schooner. Good will, what good will is she going to bring for this Province? MR. HICKEY: You should not make statements like that when you cannot hack them up. ~m.. NEARY: Well, Sir, I am making the statement. It is up now. The figure now, Sir, is well over a half million 1 I would suggest to the hen. House. Yes, Sir, that is right. Well, let the minister bring in his financial statement. HR. TUCKEY: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman.

I 'do not have to prove my innocence. .Someone else has to prove my guilt. Now, if the hen. gentleman tvir-:l1es to make a charge let him make it and then maybe ><e will prove a Jr.t of things. Otherwise, keep his mouth shut. Do not be irresponsible. You were doing good for a few days. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, I would suggest to this hon. House, Sir, I would suggest to this hen. House that the repairs on the Norma and Gladys have cost the taxpayers of this Province close to-$180,000. It cost $75,000 to have a couple of spars put in her in New York. 1022

December R, 1975. Tape 408 RH - 2 That is $2lfS,n')n or $250,0'JfJ. MR. HICKEY: Is that our expense? H~. NEARY: That is mostly at the expense of the 11Je~1foundland taxpayers • Sir. 1-'R. HICKEY: Is it? MR. NEARY: Hell, I do not care whose expense it is. It is still the taxpayers. ~. HICKEY: That is right. You do not care. T-IR. NEARY: It is still the taxpayers, Sir. IIR. HICKEY: Nice to hear you say that, }1R. NEARY: Then there is the airlift Sir, the airlift of bringing crew back and forth bet,~een Newfoundland and the Fest Indies and Panama. I would like to know how much that is costing. Cost shared. l1R.

RICKEY: '!R. NEARY: Cost shared, the airlift is cost shared. Well let the minister produce the facts and figures. MR. HICKEY: I cannot help it if you are suspicious. MR. NEARY: And I am sure, Sir, that the ROVernment, the people of Canada would be very interested to find out in these times of austerity and belt tightening that the Government of Canada is lashing it out for foolish nonsense- !\R. HICV.F.Y: 1<'el1 known. ~!R, NF.ARY: - anrt spending $2.5 million to build a golf course down in the National l'ark, Terra Nova National Park. Two wrongs do not make a right, Mr. Chairman. }!R.

HICKEY: We wHl close everythinp, up. ~ !R.NEARY: But nevertheless, Sir, I do not want to get into things that are irrelevant at the moment. But Sir, it must be obvious to everybody in this Province that the government could save if they wanted to the amount that they will raise through this increase of two cents in the sales tax. It is just another reason, Sir, why all bon. members should 1023

December 8, 1975. lfR . NEARY: Tape 408 RR - 3 in conscience, if they are thinking Newfoundlanders at all, if they have the interest of the ordinary people of this Pro vince at heart,on eit her side of the House vote against this bill until the government has really proven to the people of this Province that they intend themselves to tighten their own belts, to do a little retrenchment on their own, to do a little house cleaning. You know, Mr.

Chairman, before I sit down I just had another thought there, Sir, about the consultinp, engi neering fees that are oe1ng lashed out in this Province right, left and centre, gone completely out of control. I am glad that the Minister of ~unicipal Affairs is having a special audit, a special investigation done into one or two municipalities where the consu ltin g engineering fees are considered to be excessive, especially on the wat er and sewer project presentlv underway in Burin Inlet . 1 am told, Mr.

Chairman -I have not got the figures yet but the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housin g may be able to set the record straight when they get the report - I am told that that project, the cost of it was estimated to be in the vicinity of $2.8 million. So far, Sir, so far $600 ,000 has been spe nt in consulting enginee r ing fees, 1024

December 8, 1975 Tape no. 409 Page 1 - mw Hr. Neary. $600,000, Sir. Look, I am told, Mr. Chairman - and then they had the gall to bring this bill in asking for an increase in taxes - I am told, Sir, that the consulting engineers not only get their own consulting fees, but they also get expenses, plus 100 per cent. In other ~~ords, Mr.

Chairman, let us say the consulting engineers go off to one of the rent-a-car firms, and they rent a car for a certain amount, and they send the bill into the government, they add on 100 per cent for themselves on to that bill, and not only rent-a-car, Sir, but everything all the way down the line, telephone calls. I am just citing an example of extravagance and waste and perhaps I will go through it again for the benefit of the hon. Premier. _.P:..;R;.;;EM=I"'E"'R"'--"M.;;;O;.;Oo.;RE..;;;";;.;S""':;.__ Cool down, Stefan! MR. NEARY: It is not Stefan.

I am glad it is not - Sir, consulting engineers - I just used one example of rent-a-cars. They will rent a car, they will send the bill to the government to pay for that rent-a-car, and then they will add on 100 per cent for themselves. They are getting their own fees, they ar~ getting expenses, plus 100 per cent. Outrageous, Sir! It is outra~eous! And there should be a stop put to it. I have other examples, Sir, that I will bring up later on in the House. Mr. Chairman, how can any member in this hon.

House, who has the interests of the ordinary people of this Province at heart, how can they, in all conscience, agree to this increase in two cents on the sales tax when they see all the examples of extravagance and waste that are going on right hefore their very eyes, right under their noses? ~r. Chairman, you know, I got the impression, rightly or wrongly, you know, that a lot of the members of this bon. House, Sir, 1ust do not care. They do not care, Sir. You know what this session of the House reminds me off so far, Mr. Chairman? It is like a bubble that is right ready to bust. Nobody seems to care.

Everybody is talking about the battle against inflation, ·increased taxes,retrenchment, cutbacks, but nobody seems to be doing anything about it, no leadership. There is no sense of urgency. MR. MORGAN What about the budget? 1025

December 8, 1975 Tape no. 409 Page 2 - mw MR. NEARY: No, Sir, well I must say I read Wick's column the other day - SOME HON. MEMBER: No sense. MR. NEARY: No, Sir, but there is really no sense of urgency, especially on the part of the government. And while on the one hand they are asking the people ao cough up some more money, while the other provinces are trying to cut down on ways to save money, while they are trying - like they did in Ontario 1 setting up special- committees to show the government where they can •save money.

Maybe we should call in the Auditor General's departlnent,and let him go through the estilll&tes with a finetooth comb and tell t1le goveriiiilent ~here they can save money. But, Sir, we cannot carry on with the eourse that we ' are on. We cannot ask the ordinary people of this Province to fork over any more money unless and until the government, that is sitting back in a semi-irresponsible manner and letting this extravagance and waste go on right under the·ir very nose.s .. MR.. CHAIRMAN: The hon. membe~ for Twillingate. MR.. SMALLWOOD : Mr.

Chairman, the goverm~~ent have moved the House into Cammittee of Ways and Means, asking the Committee to approve the two percentage point increase in the sales tax on a great many items, from eight per cent to ten per cent, And the minister has told us ·that in what is left of this present fin11ncial year, this increase will bring in about seven million badly needed dollars, badly needed 1026

December 8, 1975 Tape 410 PK- 1 Mr._ S!!!_a..!_lwood ; by the government, therefore badly needed by the Province. In this matter the government and the Province are one. We have also the fact that in a full year the same tax increase will bring in ~omething of the order of $20 million next year, and again that $20 million will be badly needed. But, Sir, I have already said here,and I have said it 1.dth considerable reluctance,that I .am going to vote against the 10 per cent increase.

My reason for that is that I feel, and I feel very strongly 1 that the way for the government to balance the budget on currect account is to retrench, retrench heavily, really heavily, and I mean heavily, I mean to retrench to an extent that no one I believe in the House is contemplating at this moment, up to this time. I believe that the kind of retrenchment and the degree of retrenchment that is imperatively needed, imperatively, is in the dozens and scores of millions of dollars a year.

The Premier himself said publicly, I heard him on the air,say that next year they ,nll have to cut expenditure by $100 million to $150 million. And on Opening Day here I said, not enough, $200 million, maybe quarter of a billion. Cut expenditure of everything current and capital combined down to not more than $700 million or $750 million. I went up to Ottawa on Saturday past and I spent Saturday and Saturday night there and came back yesterday, and on the plane coming down I read Saturday's edition of The Toronto Daily Star, and on the front page there was a story that startled me.

The headline says "Ontario warns hospital staffs to be cut<. back." They warned that hospital staffs are to be cut back. It was written by Charlotte ~ontgomery ,star staff writer. '1 The Ontario Government has told all hospitals in the province to freeze the salaries of senior employees and not to increase hospital staff. And it has warned the hospitals that it will soon call for cutbacks in staff and a reduction in the number of hospital beds?> He - yho is the he? "Health Minister Frank Miller will announce specific restraints for ~dividual hospitals in a few weeks, " Deputy Minister S. W.

Martin said last night. Martin described the restraints aimed at curbing the province's soaring 1027

December 8, 1975 Tape 410 PK- 2 Mr. Smallwood : health costs; 1 and the Premier knows something about that, and so do I and so does every bon. member of this House, the soaring costs in Newfoundland of public health, cmd the soaring costs of education, and the soaring costs of virtually everything in the last year, two, thre.e, four; five, six, eight,ten yeaTs, twenty-seven years the soaring costs.

Re said, this is the depnty minister, he said,"Beds will be closed." He said, "It is possible the staff reductions will mean firings, but 'we hope we can do it by attrition', that is, not appoint new staff ad as people retire, reach tlle retirement age let them go and do not replace them by attrition." Miller already has said, hear this, Mr. Chairman, Mill .er the deputy minister already has said, "Twenty-four small hospitals in the P~vince will be closed in a move to trim about $100 million from the gove~ent's health budget.

The first part of the Province's cost cutting progr&lllllll! was outlined in a memo sent by Martin to all hospitals Wednesday. It told them not to submit their 1976 'budgets until the full cost cuttirtg programme has been given to them. Hospi ·tals normally submit their budgets to the Province in the Fall for approval 1028

December R, 1975. HR. SMALLWOOD: Tape 411 RH - 1 for the following year.'~ Now they have been told,we do not want your budgets until next Spring 1 we do not want until we have settled on our cost cutting, in other words, our retrenchment programme. Sir, it is not going to save the Province, it is not going to balance the budget merely by increasing taxes. Now I ~prepared to admit that some increase in taxes is necessary although we are already, already the most heavily taxed people in Canada. I think this will he generally admitted here.

I do not think anyone will, · I do not think anyone can deny that Newfoundland people, 540,1')01) souls are nm~ and have been for the good many years - this is not something that has come in with the present administration. This was true, perhaps not ~uite as true, five, six, ten years ago as it is today. We are a heavily taxes people. You can increase taxes to the point of diminishing returns where actually a heavier tax gets you less money. TI1at can happen. It happens frequently.

You cannot balance the budget of this Province by getting more revenue, by imposing more taxes, neVI taxes, increased existing taxes. That is not the way to do it. That is temporizing. That is expediency. It is not facing up to it. It is not looking the problem straight in the face. It is trying to take an easy way out, an easy and an unpleasant and an unpopular way 1 I may say, because obviously even if you exempt clothing and exempt other things as well, the fact is that you have jumpPd in this resolution, you propose to jump the sales tax by - the Leader of the Opposition worked it out.

He is a better mathematican perhaps than T am - as a 21 per cent rate of increase, from 8 per cent to 10 per cent. That is not t~e way to do it. It is not the way to do it. Now I do not think even the Premier and I am sure the Minister of Finance are not more anxious to see this Province's budget balanced than I am. I saw the Province's budget unbalanced and we ended in very deep trouble. I remember that as vividly as though it were the day before 1029

December 8, 1975. MR. SMALLWOOD : Tape 411 RH - 2 yesterday. I remember, Mr. Chairman, sitting in the Rouse of Assembly in the press galle ry and hearing Sir Richard Squires, the Right Ron. Sir Richard Squires, the Prelllier of the .Province, the Prime Minister of the country of Newfoundland,with his voice rin ging 1 he had a magnificent baritone voice and his voice rang with pride as he announced , ·~r . Speaker, it is with pride and joy that I tell our people that we are bringing forward this year an education budget of $1 million .

" By the way, that $1 million that year is now replaced by $240 a quarter of a billion.

My first year as Premier, the total budget of Newfoundland fo r education was $3 lllillion, $3 million; the next year $5 million; the next year, $7 million I think - 1 am approximating now - then $11 million; then $14 million; then $18 million: then $28 million; then $37 million; then $44 million; then $56 million; then $72 million; then $96 million; then $110 million; $130 million and it has gone on and on until today the soaring cost of education has broug ht us up to an expenditure of $246 million, a quarter of a billion dolla rs. 1030

1 December 8, 1975 Tape No. 412 NM- 1 MR. SMALLWOOD: But I saw the Premier of Newfoundland exclaim with very obvious pride, he was a Liberal, he was proud that he was a Liberal and that education, the Liberals were the friends of education, so we are going to ask the House to vote $1 million this year for education. Thev did. They voted $1 million. The next year succeeding, the very next year the same Premier had to come before the House and confess with humiliation and shBllle and sorrow that he was going to ask the House now to cut it back from $1 million to $750,000, Then he was voted out of office.

He went out and Mr. Monroe came in and Mr. Monroe in his first year had to come before the House and ask the House to cut the education grant from $750,000 down to $500,000. Senator Fred Rowe, who was Minister of Education in the Government of Newfoundland after Confederation, told the House one day,I remember, when he was principal of the big school in Greenspond- or was it Wesleyville! somewhere on the north side of Bonavista Bay, his salary was cut to $40 a 1110nth. $40. Education was cut from $1 million to $750,000 to $500,000.

Ontario is lopping off twenty-four small hospitals and all the rest have got to hold the line. Now you are not going to balance your budget, Mr. Speaker, by getting the Newfoundland people to give you the money to do it. They have not got it. And the way to do it is to need less 1110ney, spend less, you will need less and you can balance the budget that way. I appeal seriously to the Premier. Although it is the Minister of Finance who is moving the resolution and all that, it really is the job of the Premier of the Province to see that the budget gets balanced. That is his job. He cannot escape it.

He cannot evade it. He cannot pass it over to somebody else. He cannot even pass it over to the Cabinet. The Premier is unique. He and he alone, more than all the Cabinet, more than the Minister of Finance, the Premier is responsible for the job of balancing the budget. Most Premiers across Canada are their own Ministers of Finance. And whether they are or are not, it is the Premier of a Province who control~ 1031

December 8, 1975 l'ape No. 412 NM- 2 MR. SMtLl..\«)()D: Finance because Finance is the heart and soul of the Government ancl I appeal strongly to the Premier. I suppose the Rovernment will go on n,ow with this ten per c~t. It· is too late I suppose for the millister to with,draw it. They do not know bow they are going to substitute ·something for it for the remainder of this financial year. But they are going to be bringing down the budget in the Spring for the next financial'year.

I beg tbe111 to tnrn their thoughts, between now and the next budget, turn their thoughts awtrJ from taxes toward retrenchment and economy. Get it over. Like us when we were young fellows, when the Premier no doubt was a young fellow in Carbonear and went over to aome swiDDing bole with the other young fellows, there were two ways of going in the pool, one was the way that I used to do it • stick my big toe in and then maybe even daringly p!lt my whole ·foot in and then get down and put a bit of water on 1111 a:t:lll$ and theo: finally $0 ·ia, inch by :lttch unUl I was wet all over. l'hat is one way.

The other way was sudden death. Dive in head first. I am asking the Premier to dive in head firJ!!t, He has got 1032

December 8, 1975 Mr. Smallwood. Tape 413 four or five years ahead of him. Get it over with, sudden death. (;et the pain over w:l th. Start economizing and Newfoundland will praise him for it. They might even re-elect him, might,four or five years from now. In replying to the remarks made on the other side of the Pouse, I would refer myself first to the remarks of the hon. member for LaPo:IJe (~r. Neary). He dealt with a subject which in IB-1 a sense I felt was not strictly relevant to the question of the tax increase and how much it ought to be. He referred to a project called the Norma and Gladys.

There have been many speeches and remarks made about this but I would like to say something, not only as a member of the government but as a Newfoundlander on this subject of the ~ and Gladys. I do not think that treating and dealing with the Norma and Gladys,which is an expenditure of $100,000 or $200,000, I do not think that has much relevance, }<r. Speaker, to the overall financial state of the Province which this tax resolution is designed to correct.

I will say this for the Norma and Gladys, it is a shared project, some­ thing entered into by the federal and provincial governments not only to promote Canada but most of all and dear to our hearts was to promote ~:ewfoundland. Now, people may laugh and jeer and scoff and all the rest hut I, for one, when that ship went out of the harbour went up on S:l gnal Hill anc1 watched her go out. It was a Newfoundlander schooner of the sort that I saw a great many of when I was growing up as a boy and I, for one, felt a degree of pride. MR. NEARY: She is not a banker. MJ?. WELLS: No, she is not a banker.

She looked more to me like the Labrador schooner~ that I saw when I was growing up. VR. NEAPY: She is not a banker. She is not even a ·Labrador schooner. ~P. WELLS: She had the rig and the appearance of a Labrador schooner. That is what she Jooked like to me, and I saw plenty of them. ~MR. HICK}' .AN: She f:l.shed as a banker for two years out of Harbour Breton. MP. WF:J.LS: That :l.s right. Well, anyway let me say now and say for this government that I 1033

December 8, 1975 Tape 413 IB-2 felt a feeling of pride when I saw something that was unique to, Newfoundland sail out, and for the sake of a couple of hundred thousand c!ollars - MR. NEARY: _MR. WELLS: $500,000 so far! The hon. member says a million. The hon. member trots out figures and they have no relation to anything that is actual, they are what he thinks. He may think it, that is fine,but that does not mean that it :l.s so. And I say that for the modest expenditure that this Province put together and matched with the federal expenditure to send that ship on a goodwill tour, I say, Mr.

Chairman, it was justified. The hon. member, as I say, may scoff at it and a great many more may and try to make an issue of it but it seems to me_,. you know, 1-'r. r.hairman, we do little enough to promote this Province which has a proud heritage and a proud history with all our faults, with all our shortcomings. Who elsewhere in the world know as much about Newfoundland, knows what Newfoundland achieved over the years or what she was capahle.of? I for one am proud of that.

When I saw that ship sail out, I felt a feeling of pride and if it cost $200,000 or $300,000, whatever the final figure is~ sharec! with Ottawa to do th:l.s, then I say let it go, Mr. Chairman. I say, it was a good expenditure and it is not going to mean that Newfoundland can or cannot balance its hudget. Tt really has nothing to do with it. It is a little expenditure on behalf of the, for the prirle really of this Province, and I, for one, do not begrudge it. SOME RON. ~MBEPS: Hear! Hear! M?.. WELLS: On <:he matter of consultants fees, I think I must say my friend's point is perhaps well taken.

I feel there has been a lot spent in consultants fees in Newfoundland. You cannot turn to the individual fee and say the consultant did not earn it. Yet in the aggregate when you 1 ook at it, you wonder :l.f good value for money has been obtained for all these fees. I certainly think the hon. member's point is well taken, something which government ought to have a look at and is having a look at. I would like also now to address myself to the remarks of

necember 8, 1975 Tape 413 IB-3 M.r. Wells. the hon . member for Tw:lll:lng<l!te (}•r. Smallwood).

He has said that there is a Umit to which this Province can go in raising taxes to balance a budget, and be h~s said very eloquently, as he sai~ in the debate, in the budget debate itself, either on the amendment or on the sub-al'lendment, I am not sure which , but anyway he has said hefore that the way to go is to reduce expenditure, and he has dra~~ the analogy of Newfoundland before she became a Province of r.anada in the days of Responsible ~overnment when, as we know, this Province , this country, dominion as it was then, got into trouble because the tax base was not sufficient to actually pay the interest on the debt and carry on the services, rudimentary services that they ~oere at that time : that this country was trying to provide. 1035

December 8, 1975 Mr. Wells. Tape 'ho. 414 Page 1 - mw The hon. member's point is well taken. I, for one, would not deny that there is a point beyond which you cannot go in terms of taxes. But there is also something else that we in Newfoundland, and this government and all of us as members have to take into consideration,and that is that we are now a Province of Canada. We cannot willy-nilly cut out programmes which are shared with the federal government. The hon. member talked about health costs, one of the soaring areas of cost. But everything we do, Mr.

Chairman, in the health area, everything we do is tied into arrangements made with the Government of Canada. The experlditures of this Province, as I believe the hon. Premier has said, are something of the order of 75 per cent of the expenditures on current account of this Province are fixed. When I say fixed, they are not fixed by statute,although some of them are, but for practical purposes the government has little or no control what to do with them. ' Take teachers' salaries.

Now it is conceivable that this government would have to reduce if things got bad enough, the salaries, salaries of teachers, as the hon. member for Twillingate (Mr. Smallwood) was talking about in the 1930's happened. But this would be an extreme step.

This would be one of the last steps that would have to be taken, and I am not saying that looking to the future, if the economy of Canada and the economy of the Western World becomes unmanageable whatever happens to the Western World, and to Canada, Newfoundland we can be sure is going to fare probably worst than other provinces, because of various factors which are historical as much as anything. But it would an absolutely extreme step to cut teachers' salarles. But look at the amount of teachers' salaries, look at the total proportion, almost one-quarter of a billion dollars of. our budget made up by them.

When the hon. member says, we should cut expenditures, is he saying categorically that we should, this year, cut teachers' salaries for the balance of this financial year? I do 1036

December 8, 1975 Mr. Wells. Tape no. 414 Page 2 - mw not think he is. I think he is too responsible to advocate that in this House of Assembly that we should for the balance of the year cut these salaries and yet that is a one-quarter of a billion dollars expenditure. Take health: The health system, the health care system, as it is called in this Province, is financed and arranged through agreements with the Government of Canada, the agreement on Medicare and the Hospital and Diagnostic Insurances Act - I forget the actual title but that is basically it. Into this, we are locked in.

We are locked in even by the Government of Canada. We are,locked in on the Hospital and Diagnostic Services Act for a further five years. And during that time the Government of Canada says, we will review it and come up with a new formula that will cost the Government of Canada less, and fair enough,that is what they want to do. I do not blame them, because they recognize soaring health costs. But we cannot, without beinp, completely in breach of that act, we cannot go and slash off these costs.

If we do it, the only way I can see we can do it is actually reduce the cost of salaries that are the subject matter of collective agreements that have been entered into, formal agreements, and signed. ~1R. SMALLWOOD : Would the minister allow me? MR.I~LLS: Yes. MR. SMALLWOOD: Does the legislation or the contratual relationship that exists between Newfoundland and Canada with regard to health, does that legislation impose a minimum expenditure or a minimum physical apparatus there must be, or a maximum?

Does it say that the Government of Newfoundland must maintain these minimum standards of people and personnel and buildings and beds and what have you,or does it say, we will share with you on this arrangement up to a certain maximum? Which is it? ~. WELLS: Perhaps it is neither really. It is closer to, up to a certain maximum, but I do not think there is evan a maximum, although perhaps there is. 1037

December 8, 1975 Tape no. 414 MR. SMALLWOOD: There is no minimum. Mlt. WELLS: There is no minimum. MR. SMALLWOOD: No, Page MR. WELLS: That we kn,ow, but it is a shared arrangelllent which in effect is not as s:L:nple as saying it Will be fHty 3- mw per cent or sb:ty per cent or seventy per cent. It i.s brought about by taking national averages. Th~efore, if the Province of Ontario - MR. SMALLWOOD: What is brought aboqt by- taking averages is the amount that they will 11ay us. fiR, WELLS: RJ,ght. MR. SMALLWOOD: if the minister will - just so that we will all be a little clearer.

It is a matter surely of the Proil'ince itself setting .its own. levels and standards, and it having done so, not Ottawa, but St. John's having set the standards and levels of healt services, Ottawa then will pay so much to the Newfoundland Government in accordance with .a certain

schedUle and formula. But the tone. the ·pace, the stand.ard, the .level are all set by us, not by Ottawa. MR. WELLS: Tha·t is correct. 'the hon, member is correct. The only thing is is that there is a bi~ ~ore to ilt a11 I see it than that. When Ottawa offered, for inStance, a medicare programme, and the bon. gentleman 1038

December R, 1975. Tape 415 RH - 1 MR. HELLS: was Premier at the time, I do not think for a moment that the Province of Newfoundland could have said no to Ottawa. I do not think it could have .allowerl,this Province could have allowed the other nine provinces to enter into the medicare system with Otta~Ta, and this Province stayed out and gone along on the previous system that it had, I do not think so for. a moment.

But by the very act of embracing merlicare, of going in on this system this Province started to pay monies out. ~ow when the Ferleral r.overnment says we are going to change the formula, this Province is caught.

When I was Minister of Health this past Summer we had to provide additional, the government had to provide additional monies to medicare because of changes that took place, because the larger province!' altered their system ~vhich hrought this national averages matter into play and of course were informed categorically by the Federal Government that they are going to change the rate of increase of their contribution which means we are going to have to pay in this Province more money even to stay in the scheme in the coming year, two years, three years, four years.

So ••hat I am really saying is that apart from details, Mr. Chairman, because of our arrangements with Ottawa, because we are part of Canada, hecause for tlventy-five years we have lived with the hope and aspiration that we can bring services up in this Province to something approaching the standard of services in the rest of Canada, because of that it would \J e extremely difficult to start cutting services. Yet the hon. member may be right, it may have to be done some time in the future.

But this government holds to the belief anrl the expectation and the resolve that where He can , '''e can hold the line, hold the services that we have and balance the hurlget by taking the action that we have taken. Now the action that has been 1aken this year will proviite an add:l,tional $7 million on S.S.A. which will bring the hudget,as we all know and has been said in the lludp;et Speech and remarks on this debate, to the point of an $11 million shortage. It Hould be nice to go all the 1039

December 8, 1975. MR. HELLS: Tape 415 RH - 2 way arid completely balance it without borrowing. But unfortunately there seems no way to do that. We have slashed everything that we can, I think, reasonably do, Mr. Chairman. We have deferred capital programmes which are of extreme concern. I was going to say vital to the Province. They are extremely important. Ask the people in Grand Falls whose hospital extention has been delayed. Ask the people in Bonavista, on the Burin Peninsula, in Clarenville, all over. What we have done is hurting. I agree, Mr. Chairman, that it has to hurt if it is to do any good. But there are two sides to it and we have attempted to achieve a balance:

(1) By slowing down capital expenditures,and the other by increasing the taxes. We have attempted to do something else as well, that when increasing this S.S.A. we have also by taking it off all clothing tried to make it a little easier, a little more palatable for the average man, the man and wife with a large family of children and the family - everybody has to wear clothing. It is more of a burden on the low income earner to clothe and feed his family than it is on the high income and we have attempted to balance that out by removing it on clothing.

We have imposed,and will come to later on when we debate the second tax change·on the income tax, we have tried to put the tax, more of the tax on the shoulders of those who are best able to bear it. So, Nr. Chainr.an, we look at it as really a two prong thing, as trying to hold on to some of our,most of the services that we in Newfoundland have fought so hard to get, and at the same time to spread the tax burden in the most equitable fashion. Now, Mr. Chairman, we are not perfect. We may not be all-wise or all-seeing in this.

But we have tried to do what we had to do in a way to hurt least the average citizen of this Province. Now every member in this bon. House may have a difrering or different opinion as to the wisdom of what has been done. But we have approached it as a balanced approach, as an approach we think and hope will achieve our ob.iective without doing too much harm or too much damage to the taxpayers of this Province. So, Mr. Chairman, that is why the resolution is before this Committee today. 1040

December 8, 1975 Tape No. 416 NM- 1 ~. NEARY: Sir, when the bon. member started his rebuttle to the remarks that I had made earlier, Sir, you would swear, Mr. Chairman, that anybody who raised this matter of extravagance and waste in connection with the ill fated voyage of the Norma a~d G~~ that you were unpatriotic. That the bon, member was absolutely right, When he speaks in this House he is right up on a pedestal. He has to be right. Everybody else is wrong.

Well, Sir, what I am saying is this, and the hon. member knows what I am talking about, it is going to cost close to $1 million to finance that whole operation. Maybe it is jointly shared by the Province and the Government of Canada, but we were told this afternoon in this House while we were discussing a bill to increase taxes that another $150,000 is going to be spent and then the minister tells us how thrilled, ves Sir - KR. PECKFORD: Not another, no. MR. NEARY: An extra $150,000, I put the question to the minister - MR. PECKFORD: No, that is ~rong. MR, SMALLWOOD: May I help? MR. NEARY: Help, help me. MR.

S~ALLWOOD: The minister said that this trip to Europe would be $150,000 but you have to subtract that from what it would have cost had she gone over to the Orient. It is not an extra $150,000, it is probably a substantial saving. SOME RON, MEMBERS: Oh. oh! ~R. SMALLWOOD: Is that right? MR. NEARY: Well, Sir, the question that I put to the minister, and I should know, I was the one who asked the question, I should know what I asked him, ~nd I asked the minister how muc~ extra this is going to cost the taxpayers of this Province, this rescheduling of the Nprma ~nd G!~? Maybe he did not get the question.

He said $150,000. Well look, Mr. Chairman, - MR. WELLS: The hon. member for Twillingate is quite correct. It is not an extra $150,000. ~~. NEARY: ~r. Chairman, this ill-fated voyage of the Norma and Gladys 1041

December 8, 1975 Tape No. 416 NM- 2 »R. NEARY: is going to cost the taxpayers of this Province a substantial amount of money. Let us not quibble about what the amount is. It is going to be $500,000, $750,000, $1 million. But the point I am making is this; the member says he went up on Signal Hill and he watched this little boat go out through the Narrows and he was thrilled. Here we were protecting the her.itage of Newfoundland. Well I would say to Your Honour that I would l.ike to see $150,000 or $200,000 or $500,000 or $1 million d.irected in a d.ifferent way .in th.is Prov.ince.

I would l.ike to see .it go to put some crutches .in the hands of little crippled ch.ildren who need them, to put eyeglasses on children and people who need them, and to put dentures in people's mouths that need them. Then, S.ir, I would say we would have something to be proud of, We could afford the luxur.ies then of send.ing off little boats around the world. And Your Honour knows full well the number of kidney machines we have in th.is Province, how badly we need one out .in Port aux Basques, .in that hosp.ital.

And we are go.ing to send off th.is little yacht, th.is private yacht she is called, to try to get a little bit of good w.ill and she is not even a Labrador schooner or a banker. That is the po.int I am making, Sir. We could find better use for that money. And I would be just as thr.illed as thP han. member to go up on S.ignal H.ill and watch the Shirley Blanche or t~e Norma and_Gladys or any other boat go out on a tour around the world. MR. SMALLWOOD: S.id and Sam. ~. NEARY: Or the Sid and Sam if we could afford it. But I am all for - }~. BRETT: Heavy stuff. »R.

NEARY: Yes, it is heavy stuff, Sir, when the Minister of Social Services is hinting that people are not going to get their .increase in Social Services the 1st. of January because the government cannot afford to pay it because retrenchment, and cutback. Mr. Chairman, if the hon. member wants to speak in this debate, Sir, he can. I have the floor at the moment. And I am making some very valid points. 1042

necembcr 8, 1975 Tape NO . 416 N}l - 3 "'P.. NEARY: We ·can ill <ifford that sort of thing, Sir . The only thiny. that you can hold up that Nonna and Gla~ for is a symbol of the foundering Ship of State. That is about all, Sir , She could be us e d fo r at this particular time. We could find better use for that kind of money. Mr. Chairman, 9hile 1 am on my fee t gi•1ing examples of ext rava~ence and waste, does Your Honour kno"• and does the· House know that we have in thts Province a sculptor, a sculptort 1043

December 8, 1975. MR. NEARY: Tape 417 RH - 1 why some of the wealthy Provinces, like Ontario could not even afford a sculptor. We got countries in the world that could not afford a sculptor. But we have got one in this Province and I would like to know today what he is sculpting. Is he doing a bust of the hon. the Premier1 The hon. the former Premier, I do not think, will have his hust done while he is alive. MR. SMALLIIDOD: He did one of me. }'!R. NEARY: He did one of you? MR. SMALL\o.'OOD: Yes. MR. NF..ARY: Well, what is he doing? And you know, Mr.

Chairman, we also have, believe it or not, apart from a sculptor, we have a picture framer, lives up I believe, up near where the hon. the Premier -he lives over ~hat way somevhere, an official framer, a framer. Newfoundland with a sculptor and a framer! Did you say a flamer? MR. MURPHY: ~!R. NEARY: Not a flamer, no a framer. A gentleman who frames pictures for the University and for the - MR. SMALLWOOD: So long as he does not frame people. MR. NEARY: Well, I tell you the hon. gentleman sho~ld put a picture of hon. memhers in this House in a frame. I guarantee you that would he one for posterity.

But you know the point I am making, Sir, we are sHting hack here soaking it to the ordinary Newfoundlander and here we are lashing out his dollar, his tax dollar to sculptors. MR. HURPHY: ~lR. NEARY: Hho hired the sculptor? h'ho hired him? I do not know who hired him. care who hired him. MR. MURPHY: Did the dirty Tories hire him? HR. NEARY: He is there. >IR, MlTRPEY: Put things in their proper perspective. I!R. NEARY: And an official, an official framer. MR. }1URPHY: That is rip,ht. 1044 I do not

!Jt December R, 1975. Tape 417 RH - 2 MR. NEARY: Yes, Sir. that is right. And I do not know who hired him. But, !'ir, this is the kind of thing that we should be looking at, }lr. Chairman, hefore we come into this House and ask the taxpayers of this Province to cough up another t1~o cents on the sales tax. I agree with my hon. frienn, Sir, and I just shmverl my hon. friend the,list of ten 1vays t'lat 1vere recommended to the Government of Ontario to save money.

Some of them would make the hair stand straight on your head, Sir, - have to do with hospitals, cutback in hospitalsj a smaller portion of t~e r.ross Provincial Product should be spent on education to ref]Pct sbrinking enrolments. The ~inister of F.ducation indicated jn the House the other day that the enrolment in our schools in Newfound- land is do~m this year by three hundred and some odd, 350. MR. HO\J!'E: 313. ·- ---- rm. ' ·lEARY: 313. And I remember when we had the great economic conference over here, Sir, in the Arts and Culture Centre. MR. MURPHY: It was fantastic! . :TR.

NEARY: rhe hon. member 1~as over and spoke, had his few - had his say at that conference. I remember the ~'~inister of Education at the time bringing out a graph that showed that with birth control and family planning and that sort of thin~ that we would have reached our peak by ]'175, I think it tvas, and then we would start to go down and enrolment in our schools and university and vocational schools would drop l off. 1-lelJ, avparently that trend has already started. But, Mr. Chairman, I am sure of one thing, that when Dr.

Phil Warren, Sir, that prominent educator in th1s Province, a man for whom I have nothing but respect, that when that hon. gentleman did his report, a royal commission on education in this Province, that he did not in his wildest imagination, in his wildest dreams expect to see the bureaucracy set up as a result of that royal commission report. J am sure if Dr. Warren was asked today to give an opinion of the implementation of the recommendations of that report, that would be the first thing that he would latch on to. 1045

December 8 , 1975. Tape 417 RR - 3 MR. MURPHY: He would go into mourning: MR. NEARY: I beg your pardon? MR. MURPHY: He would wear sackcloth and ashP.s. MR. NF.ARY: Then I aJil sure, Sir, that Dr. Warren did not mean, did not mean to - all they did, Mr. Chairman, despite the recommendations, Sir, which were not followed, all they did was move the'bureaucrats and the mandarins out of Confederation Building down into the Royal Trust Building. That is all that happened, Mr. Chairman.

But I am not going to go into a debate on that at this time, Sir, except, except to point out to the administration, Sir, that there is room in the Department of Education for savings. The other day I recommended that you lop 1() per cent off all non-essential government spending and somebody immediately snapped back and said, well how can you ta~ If) per cent off education. I ~~ould say you could take it off pretty easy, Mr. Chairman, and not affect in the slightest the education in this Province which is declining anyway. MR. SMALLWOOn: We may be forc~d to do it. ~m.. NEARY: Well, maybe we will. · NR.

SMALLWOO:O: We may have no choice. MR. NEARY: And that is the sort of thing that we should be looking at, Sir, instead of bringing in bills to increase taxes. Sit down and ask ourselves whether Newfoundland can afford a sculptor ·and an official framer 1046

December 8, 1975, Tape 418, Page 1 -- apb MR. NEARY: and if .we can afford to continue our programme of building golf courses. There is a golf course go,ng to be built in Gander and it is ~oing to cost $200,000. MR. PECKFORD: There is no S200,000 coming from here. MR. NEARY: I beg your pardon? AN HON. MEMBER: Later. MR. NEARY: Yes, Sir, the Premier made a commitment in Gander during the last provincial election. 1-fR. COLLINS : He did not. 1-fR. NEARY: He did, and as far as I know, Sir, the announcement that he made to that little group in Gander, the promise to build a golf course is going to be kept, $200.000.

Well let them stand up and say no. MR. F.B.ROWE: That is right. MR. NEARY: Let them stand up and say no, we are not going to do it. PREMIER MOOR F.!':: We have alreadv done it. HR. NEARY: I beg your pardon? PREMIER MOORF.S: We have already done it. MR. NEARY: No, Sir, the han. the member for Lewisporte(Mr. White) - PRF.M1ER MOORES: Recreation has been deferred for one year. MR. NEARY: No Siree, that has nothing to do with the new recreation programme. PREMIER MOORES : Sure it has. MR. NEARY: No it has not. PRE"fiER MOORF.S: Sure it has. MR.

NEARY: The Premier made a separate commitment to this little group in Gander, I think they are called - not Bayview, I forget the name - during the election. There was a commitment in my district but that is cancelled. MR. NEARY: My friend here the member for Lewisporte (Mr. White) put a question to the government the other day and asked one of the ministers - I believe it was the Minister without Portfolio - the minister said he would get the information for the House and so far the information has not 1047

December 8, 1975, Tape 418, Page 2 -- anb been brought into this House. MIL WELLS: I am sorry~ What was that? MR. NEARY: The member asked if the government was going to proceed with the construction of a golf course costing $200,000 in Gander, and he has not ~ot the answer. Yet the Premier savs thev announced that it was cancelled. Mr. Chairman, I hate to be getting up and bringing these things up. DR. FARRELL: Your in bad shape, eh? MR. NEARY: No, Sir, I am in ~retty good shape. I am in pretty rare sha~e today . Mr.

Chairman, any member of this House if he is doing his dutv to the people of this Province can take the estimates, go through it with his pencil and I guarantee he would want it well sharpened, because the point would be worn right down before he would get through it, and draw a line through all the waste and all the extravagance that is in the estimates. That is what we should be doing, Sir, instead of debating this bill at this particular time. I am not against Newfoundland protecting its heritage but I want to see little children get wheel chairs when they need them. AN HON. MEMBER: l>fR.

NEARY: Hear, hear~ I want to see an old person get the roof of his house renaired when it is leaking. Let us get our priorities straight, Sir, let us get our priorities straight. When the member gets up and more or less implies that I am against a little boat going off on a good will tour that will bring all kinds of benefits to Newfoundland I would like to know what kind of benefits that it is going to bring to Newfoundland. MR. RI CKEY : All kinds. MR. NEARY: Bi lls! That is all, It will bring back bills. Mr. Speaker, that money could be better spent. MR. HICKEY: Would you like an example of the benefits? MR.

NEARY: The member can have his opportunity to speak when I take my seat, and if the member says anything I disagree with I will get U!), Sir, · and !)Ut Ul' a defence as I have done with my bon. friend who went up on Signal Hill and was so thrilled to see ·this ship going out the Narrows costing the taxpayers of this Province about a half million 10·48

__A_ --- llecember 8, 1975, Tape 418, Page 3 -- ap.b Mr. Neary: or three""(fUarters of a million dollars that cou1d have been spent on dtul!(s for sen.ior citizens. Northin~, S.ir, thx-ills. me 1110re, nothing gives me ~eater ple·asure than to see a lit.tle crippled child get a wheel ehait when she needs it. SOME. P.ON. HF..MBF.RS: Hear, hear: MR. NEARY: Bec<Juse the l'Olicy of the government right now is to tum down these kinds ;,£ requests. MR. MURPHY: MR. NEARY: MR. MURPHY: MR. NEARY: MR. MURPHY: MR. NEAR'(: That is not fair . That is true. That is not fa.fr. It is not fair but it is true.

You squandered $243,000 on Bell Island - What about the $3 million · or $4 million, Sir, ove:t in the Department of Fishe .ries? MR. MURPHY: The gall - MR. NEARY: Yes, the gall, the gall of this crowd to ask for an increase in taxes when $3 million or $4 million have been whipped out of the DeJ>artment of Fisheries. At least the money that WCJS spent on Bell Island pluJt!!:ed up the holes in the roofs and -put windows and doors and floors and sills in houses .. What about the consulting engineering fees, the investigation in Burin and the $3 million or 1049

necember R, 1975 Tape 419 IB-1 Mr. Neary. $4 million was stolen out of the Department of Fisheries. "fuat has the former minister got to say about that? MR. WELLS: Surely something Which is now I understand the subject of an investigation, a police investigation, whether monies may or may not have been stolen from the Department of Fisheries, surely this is not fit subject or at least a relevant subject matter for this particular debate. The Chair really does feel that this is not a matter which can be debated at this time. MR. NEARY: So, ~r.

Chairman, we do not know whether it is true or not because the mi.nister has not given the House a statement. 1-'R. C'BAIWAN : Order, please! The Chair has ruled that this matter cannot be debated at this time. 1-'R • NEARY : Thank you, Your Honour. I have no intention of debating it except to say, Your Honour, that we need full disclosure, Sir, before we pass the kind of a bill that is in front of Your Honour there, to increase the sales tax in this Pr~vince by 2 per cent. All of these matters have to be laid on the floor of this House, man-fashion.

Then,Sir, we can decide whether or not after we make the cuts and after the government itself shows that it is sincere in cutting back and that it is sincere in cutting down on extravagance and waste, once that is proven, then we will decide whether or not we should vote in favour of a bill to increase taxes in this Province. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Trinity-Bay de Verde (Yr. F. Rowe). }'R. F. llO~TF:: l'r. Chairman, I think we made our position quite clear last Friday where we stand on this particular resolution.

However, since that time a number of things have come to my attention which I would like to address to the House Leader who is presumably taking care of this resolution at the present time. The Minister of Finance last Friday indicated that this $600 grant for the purchase of a new home, whether the home is already built or is being newly constructed, this $600, the total allotment for that will be $3 million,if I am correct, if the hon. the House Leader would confirm that amount. The 1050

necemher ~. 1975 Mr. Rowe. Tape 419 House Leader does not seoero to h~ar me, f·'r. r.hairman. IB-2 I ~Jm tryinp, to find out "~<•hether or not the total allotment for the $600 for people who are purchasing or building a new home the total allotment as suggested by the f.'ini.ster of Fi.nance is $3 ndll:l .nn. The reason for asking this particular question, S:lr, is th:ls w:lll supply approximately 5,000 people with a grant for the purch~Jse or building of a new home if I am correct, 5,000.

And ~1hat I would like to knm~ from the House Leader :Is what :Is the ~pprox:lmate number of homeowners, if I can use that expression, or famiJ ies whn purchase or buy new homes e11.ch ye<tr :In order that we may get some sort of a reasonable estimate of the accuracy of that $3 m:lllion. Because, as I pointed out last Fr:lday, in certa:l .n cases he cause of the increase of the sales ta.x on huil d:!np ll'ater:f als it is ouite PN•s:lble that tt>e sales tax wiJ] cancel ont the amount of this $linn alloten to homeowners. Nnw, I realize that I used a very convenient figure of $30,000 of materials into a home.

That I would submit :Is prohably an unrealistic figure throughout the Province. Hut to a certain degree the increase i.n the s;tles tax on building materials "~<'ill cut into tl1at $600 grant. Ani! T asked the minister if he would give consiclerat:lon to remov:lng the sales tax ~Jtorether on building materials and I did nnt pet .~n <'USHer from the Y:!n:l ster of - liN BON. ME}ffiER: I can answer them. l'll. T. l'NJE: Well, I have a number of ouestion to ask, Sir- ~~. PECKFORD: T can h<tndle the first one if you want me to.

We]J, "r. r.hainnan, I woulcl he only tno happy if somehody "~<•ouln anst oer the qnest:lon when T <tsk it like I din the other clay and I have t~ro c-r three questions to ask now. If either J,c-n. minj ster on the other s:tc:!e want~ to answer the question when T "1t Clown, fine. J am auite agreeahle to that but I would l:lk.e to pursue this 11ne of thought if I could. AN llON • 1'1ID'BEP: You are not going far like that. ~~. F. ROWE: In a number of cases - 1051

December 8, 1975 Tape 420 PK - 1 Mr.__!_. Rowe: Mr. Chairman, either a person has the right to be heard without being interrupted or not in this House, and I understand a person can speak and not be interrupted. MR~_CHAIRMAN: Order, please! I think that we have to recognize that if an hon. member invites interruptions or questions,the Chair will allow a certain latitude there. On the other hand, if an bon. member insists on silence in the Bouse that the Chait will certainly enforce that. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would appreciate the questions as being answered after I get an opportunity to state the questions.

We voiced our objection to the fact - one of the reasons why we are not supporting this particular resolution is that we feel that the increase in the sales tax on, well,material such as building materials will cut in significantly to the $600 to the ?eople who are buying new homes or constructing new homes. But what I am also trying to find out is an approximation of the number of people who do indeed buy homes during the run of any one year, because if it is significantly less than syooo people then this estimate of $3 million is an exaggerated or inflated estimate.

If the number of people buying new homes is considerably greater than 5,000 well obviously there is not just enough grants to go around, and I would like, you know, just to know where this $600 fits in and if any han. minister can answer that when I sit down I would c&rtainly appreciate an answer. The second point, Mr. Chairman, that I made on Friday I think requires some clarification just in-ease I am accused of not supporting the next resolution to come up.

We also voiced objection to this increase in sales tax, this 25 per cent increase in the rate of sales tax, because we felt that it was a regressive and an inequitable tax because of the fact that it was baaed on a person's ability to pay. And I kind of suggested at that time that it would be fairer, more fair~to place that tax on something that is based on a person's ability to pay, something similar to the personal income tax. I just want to clarify the situation on that particular statement 1052

Decemher 8, 1975 Tape 420 PK - 2 Mr. Rowe: ri~ht here and now, Mr. Chairman, and make it abundantly clear that that statement in no way indicates our support of the increase in the ~ersonal income tax which is going to he contained in the resolution next. The other point that I would like to make in the way of a question, Mr.

Chairman, is this, if you look at - I do not know, it has got no real title here, the table of contents in this booklet, the Mini Budget, the table of contents - you have the table of contents and then you ~o on to two tables, two or three or four or five tables where the Roman numerals numbers No. II the table entitled "Estimated Provincial and Federal Revenues: If hon. members could refer to that you would see that the corporate income tax estimated for 1975•1976 the corporate income tax, the revised estimates are down by some, approximately,$2 million.

The revised estimates for 1975-1976 for the co~orate income tax, the revised estimates is a figure of $19,300,000. The original estimates,$21 million. Now, Sir, the reason I am asking this question is because, you know, what does this reflect? I was wondering if it was the economic situation? Or - well, I think the question has been answered, it has been caused by the strikes because although 1053

December 8, 1975. MR. ROWE: Tape 421 RH - 1 it has been mentioned that the corporate income tax in Newfoundland and Labrador is the highest of any Province in Canada. MR. DOODY: That is right. MR. ROWE: Has that been suggested? So I might add, Mr. Chairman, is the sales tax. Is it not? MR. DOODY: Right. MR. ROWE: Therefore, one wonders, Sir, why we did not have an increase in the corporate income tax for this Province as well as that for the­ that is slapped on to the ordinary citizen of this Province.

If we are going to treat everybody equally,or unfairly, we can at least treat them equally unfairly, if I tan use that term of a phrase. So, Sir, if He are in such desperate straights, if the government is estimatinr; a deficit of $11.3 is it? $11 million on current account, a deficit of $11 million and we are headed for bankruptcy,as some han. members ltave suggested, as well as socking it to the ordinary citizen of this Province in this regressive and unfair sales tax, why is it that we do not increase the corporate income tax in this Province? MR. PEClCFORD: We do not get much out of it. XR.

ROWE: Well, I do not know, Mr. - I am asking the question out of ignorance and idle curiosity. i\N RON . HEMBER: Speak for yourself. HR. ROHF.: Well, if the han. member knew what ignorance meant and he was not so touchy he might get up and answer the question himself. Now, Mr. Chairman, I would like an answer to this particular question. Hhy sock it, sock a 25 per cent rate of increase on the sales tax to everybody across the board, the exemptions being meaningless, and not slap it on the corporate income tax of this Province. If the han.

House Leader or any minister can give a reasonable answer we will accept it. !lut so far we have not heard a reasonable answer to that question. Is it a reflection of the economy of this Province or is it solely caused by the strikes? And talking about strikes, r1r. Chairman, if han. members 1054

Tape 421 RH - 2 would refer to the same tahle of estimated provincial ancl ferleral revenues we see under the Newfoundlancl Liquor Commission only an increase of $1 mUlion. NR. HICKMAN: Hecause of the strike. HR. ROllE: Okay, the han. Minister of Justice just answerecl the <JUesti.on that lvas not ans~1ered quite in the same manner several months ago. \•Je p,ot only $1 million increase in the revised estimates for the NewfouncUand Liquor Commission.

Now, Sir, only $1 million with an increase in the price of liquor in this Province just recently announced by the government, and you can always count on an annual increase in sales anyway. You ~et ordinarily under the best of circumstances, you ~et an increase in personal income tax, sales tax, Newfoundland Liquor Corporation taxes, if you wi]], gasoline tax, fuel tax, all taxes ~o up naturally each year.

Now, we see here in spite of the raise on liquor prices recently announced hy the government, in spite of this increase in liquor prices and in spite of the natural increase of revenue from the Newfoundland Liquor Commission we see a reyised estimate of only $1 million. Now, the Minister of Justice ~ets off and says because of the strikes, because of the strikes. Nm,r, Mr.

Chairman, if the- Your !lonour, you lvere not in the Chair during the last session when we asked han. memhers opposite would it not be cheaper to give the NeHfoundland Liquor Commission workers their increase, 1.10uld it not be cheaper to p,;ive them their increase because more revenue was heing lost because they were on strike and the lack of sale of liquor in this Province. 1-'P were to] d rip,ht in this Assembly, Sir, hy the ~linister - I do not know - the Minister of P'inance, ~thoever has jurisdiction over Nelvfound­ land Liquor Commission, we were told that 1055

December B, 1975 Mr. Rowe. Tape no. 422 Page l - mw not one single cent was lost because of the strike, not a red copper. And we have the Minister of Justice today telling us that we can only expect a $1 million increase in revenue through the Newfoundland Liquor Commission because of the strikes. Now, Sir, this may be a convenient answer for the minister this year, but why did we have the exact opposite answer from another minister last year? We want an answer from the government regarding that. If the 'minister can produce documentations, statistics to prove that -we just want proof.

We want answers to questions, Mr. Chairman, before we vote on this particular resolution which is socking it to the avera~e 1 ordinary Joe in this Province, and unfairly I submit, because it is not based on a person's ability to pay, when there are other sources of revenue in this Province that are not being tapped because of the mismanagement of this government. Now, Sir, the same question can be asked with respect to mining tax and royalties. We see that that is down again this year and presumably because of strikes. MR.

WELLS: The mining companies, if the hon' member would permit, have had~ difficult time,particularly with copper, because once the price of copper goes down around, say, $.53 practically every copper mine in Canada is on the verge of closing, and the mines have had a very difficult time because of low world prices. MR. F. ROWE: Mr.

Chairman, I thank the minister for his answer, but these are the types of things that we would like to have answered at least we would come adrift, go adrift with the Norma and Gladys, but we got to look at nther sources of revenues, and ask the reasonable, I submit, and legitimate question, you know, why do we have decreases in some other sources of revenue and why are not the rates of increases greater than we see here before us in the revised estimates.

So, Sir, just to recap really what I have asked is -~.Thichever minister would like to answer- is whether this $3 million allotted for as the $600 grants for new purchasers of homes is a realistic figure,you know, whether it is inflated or deflated - 1~ell, I do not know - too much or too little"' 1056

December 8, 1975 Hr. Rowe. Tape no. 422 Page 2 - mw that is the hest way of putting it, in terms of the numbers of people buvinp; homes and that is not a criticism. It is a legitimate question. While we are on that particular subject, ~r. Chairman, I wonder if one of th~ hon. ministers could indicate to the House the amount of money or revenue that is generated through the sales tax on building materials throughout the Province? Now I should restate that, because what I want to do is chop it down to a specific question.

How much extra money, how much extra money, will be generated as a result of the increase in the sales tax on building materials ? Okay, I know it applies to other items as well. But how much extra money will be generated through the sale of building materials because of the increase in sales taxl I do not know whether an hon. minister opposite would have an answer to that question. But it might well be that the amount of money generated through the increase in sales tax on building materials may closely equalize that of the amount of money being allotted as the $600 grant.

So we are taking with one hand and giving it with the other. AN RON. MEHBER: It might be more. MR. F. ROWE: Well, it might be more. Well, it would be interesting, Mr. Chairman, to find the answer to that particular question. So that is the business on housing. The corporate income tax, we firmly believe, Sir, that if we are going to give it to the average citizen, we should also give it tn the corporations in these days of restraints and sort of emergency measures that are required in order to raise the barometer, so to speak, on our budget. If we are going to try to reduce the debt - MR.

SMALLWOOD: What would a surtax on the provincial corporate income tax bring in, a 10 per cent surcharge? HR. F. ROWE: That would be a good question for an han. minister to answer. I cannot answer the question myself, Mr. Chairman, but that is possible. HR. F. MOORES: One million dollars a poir ~. 1057

December 8, 1975. MR. ROWE: Tape 423 RH - 1 A million dollars a point. So it is something worth looking at, I would submit to the hon. House Leader because, Sir, as tve can see from the national scene there is a terrible confrontation between the private sector, if you will- entrepreneurs, the businessmen, the capitalists­ there is a terrible confrontation between that group of our society and the labour group.

I submit that within our provincial jurisdiction that if we do not treat the corporations the same way in which we treat our people- labourers, white and blue coloured tmrkers, if I can use that expression, the ordinary citizens of this Province- if we do not sock it to the corporations like we are socking it to the ordinary people of this Province, the government is inviting a confrontation between the ordinary citizens of this Province and private business, for the want of a better expression. Now I may be all wet, Mr.

Chairman, and I am willing to listen to argument on this, but we feel very strongly that government should consider, especially in view of the fact that they are basing their whole budget on a current account deficit in excess of $11 million. If something was socked to the corporations, could that $11 million be reduced to close to zero, probably not. Is the reason that the government has not touched the corporations, is it because there may be a danger of them pulling out altogether? He do not know the answers. We will be happy to hear from hon. ministers opposite.

I think the minister has answered the one on the mining tax and the royalties. I made my point, I believe, on the Newfoundland anrl Labrador Liquor Commission. Gettinytwo opposite answers within one year from two different ministers with respect to revenue from the Newfoundland Liquor Commission is an astounding thing coming from the government side and makes one wonder why we are in the mess we are today, Mr. Chairman. So, Sir, I would appreciate and I would be happy to hear answers from any minister. Thank you. ~'R. PECKFORn : MT. r.h~i~~~. if I could take a minute just to try to reply 1058

neeember 8, 1975. Tape 423 RH - 2 to the hon. member's question regarding housin~ and the hon. member's decluction that - where did we get the 5 ,non housing starts or whatever for the Province to cover the $3 million allocated in the budget for it. \,Tell, this figure was not arrived at very lightly. ~1r. Chairman, '"e have been for the laRt couple of months trving to co111e up with figures to indicate the projected housing start situation for the Province in 1976.

We have,after consultation with CMHC and with the builders and looking across the Province at our own mortgage lending programme, speculating with some degree of certainty the amount of money '"e can expect through the new,enlarged AR0P Programme, the increased participation by the private sector in mortgage lending in 1~76 as advocated by the hon. minister in Ottawa, plus the amount of money we anticipate for land assembly projects, the amount of money tn section (15), National Housing Act for Entrepreneurial apartment buildings and other private operations,that 5,000 is a realistic fip:ure for J<J7(i.

So we have to conjecture and we have based it on evidence - ~IR. RO\olf:: T s that starts or purchases'? !\R. PECKFORD: MR. F.i'IOORES: MR. PECKFORD: That starts and any purchases or '"hatever - New houses, starts. Yes, right, right. That is the figure we have come up h•ith, s,noo. That is based on, like I say, all the evidence that we could muster together. On your other point concerning the increase in S.S.A. on building m~terials from R to 10 per cent, would that increase eliminate the home owner grant of ~600.

The consumer is still hetter off under this arrangement because if vou assume that the amount of money spent on building materials in a ne'" home is $1S,OOO~which is all it is going to be tn most cases in this Province, with some exceptions I agree, but generally speaking you are going to be in around $15,00'l. The consumer will of course, if you multiply that bv 2 per cent, still be better off in this arrangement than otherwise. 'IR. RO\oiE ; !'lot th~t IIlilCh. "'R. PECKFORn: About $300, ••on] d he not he? 1059

necember 8, 1975 Tape No. 424 NM- 1 MR. ~'ORGAN: On a $15,000 house, yes. ~'R. PECKFORD : Yes. On a $15,000 house, two per cent is $300. ~- SMALLWOOD! That is on materials only. ~IR, PECKFORD: Right on material, right, just on material. Now in many places in the Province - MP.. S~IAJ.LWOOD: There is a clear gain, ¥R. PECKFORD: Right, $300, and he will get $600 - ~l'. S~'ALUmon: So he 11:ains $300. }~. PECKFOP~: As I just said, he gains about $300. }1R.

NEARY: That does not apply on labour. >'1', PF.CKFORJ): Then, that is on materials. ~lr, Chairman, anywhere in the Province outsi.de of the major urban centres, you ask anybody, you can build a house today with materials totalling $15,000. talking about 1nflation and the ri.sing tide 'of expectations and all the rest of it, if anybody '~ants to build a house that is gotng to cost him more than $15,000, he is in over his head to start with, ~~r. Chairman. PilE 'IE!! Nf)(JRES: That is a $30,000 house now. ''fl .. PECKFORD: At least, it is a $30,000 house at least, tf not more.

As it applies chiefly, especially to our own mortl!;age lending programme .or r>ural Loans Programme and to others under AHOP and so on, you know it is a dC'cent modern home if you spend $15,000 on building materials, a d·ecent m0dern holrP, comfortable, '~arm, delightfully - PRF.~!TF.P ~IOC1RF.S: --- 'Brirn', the half you are talking about, the $15,000 for mater1.als, leaves out a great deal that is included in the S30,000 total packa$!'e. ~R. PECKFOPD: Rir.ht.

T;e reason "hY I aro usine the $15,000, that is just the building materials <"nd then the whole house cost would be the lahour and the land and so on. '~.~'~.~.AI·~·!I'C1D: 1fuat about electrical and plumbing and so Ol'? Is that included in the ~15,000? 1-lhat is tr.e tax on that? !<"R . PECK FORD: For the materials for it, it would be. It would not be the lahour of installing it. ~~. S~·~Lvmnn: Not the lahour but the materials. _'!..:__<;MA.!!Lvmon,;_ The hath tub and the wash basin. 1060

December B, 1975 Tape No. 424 MR. PECKFORD: That is everything. That is everything. PREMIER MOORES: No appliances, MR. PECKFORD: No. No. That is just to put - MR. SMALLWOOD: The fixtures - NM- 2 MR. PECKFORD: - the material, all the fixt•nes)right, that you need for a home. MR. WELLS: Are there other SP<'d fications t,, he met? MR. MORGAN: On the size of the home. MR.

PECKFORD: Then of course we also have incorporated into the programme the business that if you build a house over 1250 sq. feet, up to 1450 sq. feet, there is a reduction of $2.50 per sq. foot, So that anybody who is weBlthy enough, affluent enough to afford a large home should not receive the same amount of grant as somebody who is less well off and cannot afford the same large home, to give some equality in the system. It is not perfect but at least it is bet.ter than not having it. }IR. SMALLWOOD: The $3 million will ha11e to Le borrowed by the Province. It is going to be capital account, not current. MR.

PECKFORD: It is current account. }ffi. SMALLWOOD: Current? ~. NF.ARY: What about the money you get from Ottawa, is that borrowed? Do you hav~ to pay interest on that or - ~. PECKFORD: Hb.at money now? MR. NEARY: CMHC money for in11tance, St. John's - MR. SMALLWOOD: St. John's does not borrow from Central Mortgage do they? MR. NOLAN: Would the minister permit a question1 l''R. PECKFORD: Not bor•nw. we hac.k lm;ns. Yes. C:o ahead. MR.

NOLAN: In reference to your housing programme, no~ only yours but federal, provincial and so on- this is not a criticism of the minister­ that is the number of various housing programmes that are now underway, federal and provincial, I suggest to you with respect, Mr. Chairman, that officials do not know what is existent so therefore it is, I am sure,many of the residents in Bonavista,and certainly in my district do not know, is 1061

December 8, 1975 Tape N.o. 424 NM- 3 MR. NOLAN: it not possible to get und·er one rQof, one booklet;, something to tell people whe't'e and what it is and who to see'l AN HON. MEMBER: A good point. MR. PECKFORD: Yes, Mr. Chai:rman. The only officials who know the housing programme in this Province right now are Newfoundland and Labradour Ho\lsin:g COrporation. They are the o~ly one and I thi