Manitoba Hansard — 20 November 1990 (Sitting 28, 35th Legislature, 1st Session)

35-1-28

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

MG-8048 First Session - Thirty-Fifth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS (HANSARD) 39 Elizabeth II Published under the authority of The Honourable Denis C. Rocan Speaker VOL. XXXIX No. 28-1 :30 p.m., TUESDAY, NOVEMBER 20, 1990 Printed by the Office of the Queens Printer. Province of Manitoba ISSN 0542-5492

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSl:MBL Y Thirty-Fifth Legislature Members, Constituencies and Polltlcal Afflllatlon NAME ALCOCK, Reg ASHTON, Steve BARRETT, Becky CARR.James CARSTAIRS, Sharon CERILLI, Marianne CHEEMA, Guizar CHOMIAK, Dave CONNERY, Edward, Hon. CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. DACQUAY, Louise DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary DOWNEY, James, Hon. DRIEDGER, Albert, Hon. DUCHARME, Gerry, Hon. EDWARDS, Paul ENNS, Harry, Hon. ERNST, Jim, Hon. EVANS, Cfif EVANS, Leonard S. FILMON, Gary, Hon. FINDLAY, Glen, Hon. FRIESEN, Jean GAUDRY, Neil GILLESHAMMER, Harold, Hon. HARPER, Elijah HELWER, Edward R.

HICKES, George LAMOUREUX, Kevin LATHLIN, Oscar LAURENDEAU, Marcel MALOWAY, Jim MANNESS, Clayton, Hon. MARTINDALE, Doug McALPINE, Gerry McCRAE, James, Hon. McfNTOSH, Linda MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. NEUFELD, Harold, Hon. ORCHARD, Donald, Hon. PENNER, Jack, Hon. PLOHMAN, John PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack RENDER, Shirley ROCAN, Denis, Hon. ROSE, Bob SANTOS, Conrad STEFANSON, Eric STORIE, Jerry SVEINSON, Ben VODREY, Rosemary WASYL YCIA-LE IS, Judy WOWCHUK, Rosann CONSTITUENCY Osborne Thompson Wellington Crescentwood River Heights Radisson The Maples Kildonan Portage la Prairie Ste.

Rose Seine River Roblin-Russell Selkirk Concordia Arthur-Virden Steinbach Rief St. James Lakeside Charfeswood Interlake Brandon East Tuxedo Springfield Wolseley St. Boniface Minnedosa Rupertsland Gimfi Point Douglas Inkster The Pas St. Norbert Elmwood Morris Burrows Sturgeon Creek Brandon West Assiniboia River East Rossmere Pembina Emerson Dauphin Lac du Bonnet Transcona Niakwa St. Vital Gladstone Turtle Mountain Broadway Kirkfield Park Flin Flon La Verendrye Fort Garry St. Johns Swan River PARTY.

Liberal NDP NDP Liberal Liberal NDP Liberal NDP PC PC PC PC NDP NDP PC PC PC Liberal PC PC NDP NDP PC PC NDP Liberal PC NDP PC NDP Liberal NDP PC NDP PC NDP PC PC PC PC PC PC PC NOP PC NOP PC PC PC PC NDP PC NDP PC PC NOP NOP

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Tuesday, November 20, 1990 The House met at 1 :30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES Mrs. Louise Dacquay (Chairman of Committees): Mr. Speaker, the Committee of Supply has adopted certain resolutions, directs me to report the same and asks leave to sit again. I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for St. Vital (Mrs. Render), that the report of the committee be received. Motion agreed to. TABLING OF REPORTS Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance): Mr.

Speaker, I would like to table the Third Quarterly Report of the Manitoba Telephone System . INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS Mr. Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, may I direct the attention of all Honourable Members to the loge to my left where we have with us this afternoon Mr. Gerard Janssen who is the MLA for Alberni from British Columbia. On behalf of all Honourable Members, I welcome you here this afternoon. Also with us this afternoon we have seated in the public gallery from the W. B. Lewis School forty Grade 5 students and they are under the direction of Leslie Wakeman.

This school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Minister of Labour (Mr. Praznik). Also this afternoon we have 1 O visitors from the Red River Community College and the Trade Economy Institute of the Ukraine. They are under the direction of Mr. Boris Schulakewych . On behalf of all Honourable Members, I welcome you here this afternoon. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Senate Appointments New Brunswick Court Decision Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): The GST of course has been attacked so it is probably the most unpopular tax ever proposed in this country.

It is a tax that decreases the contribution for corporat ions in 1991 and increases the contributions considerably for people causing a loss of jobs and inflation and other impacts on the social services of the non-profit sector of our province. The Tory Government has gambled in Ottawa, Mr. Speaker, with the Constitution of Canada in stacking the Senate.

Today we have a decision from the courts in New Brunswick that this tax that nobody wants has been set in a state of complete chaos with the decision of the court in New Brunswick requiring to legalize the stacking of the Senate in an increased Member of Parliament in that province. My question to the Premier is: Has he reviewed the decision of the court, the 20-page decision of the court? What action will his Government take to continue the fight against the GST in light of the chaos that Mulroney has created with both the stacking of the Senate and the other issues with the GST? Hon. Gary Fllmon (Premier): Mr.

Speaker, the Member may know that I chair Treasury Board and it met all morning. No, I have not yet seen the judgment of the court. *

(1335) Mr. Doer: Well, I dare say there will be no other item that would come before Treasury Board of $200 million or $300 million and thousands of jobs to Manitobans, Mr. Speaker. Having said that-and I understand the Premier's responsibility-my question is to the Premier. The decision of the courts outlined that New Brunswick, in order to legalize the chaos in Ottawa and the GST, must get another Member of Parliament. Our constitutional advisors tell us that will require the consent-a constitutional amendment requiring the

1547 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA November 20, 1990 consent of seven provinces and the federal Government. Would the Premier commit himself today, as chair of the Premiers' group in Canada, to oppose the increase in Members of Parliament for New Brunswick and rather take the Prime Minister on against this insidious tax as proposed on Canadians? Mr. Fllmon: Mr.

Speaker, without denigrating the advice of the Leader of the Opposition's constitutional advisers, that is a matter that obviously I will take a look at and see what the ramifications are and seek independent legal advice from the law officers of the Crown before I make any response to that question. First Ministers' Meeting Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Mr. Speaker, about six weeks ago we asked this First Minister to get a legal opinion on the stacking of the Senate. So I would have assumed that he had already had one, not the issue of tax share in the province.

My further question to the Premier is: Given that inflation is 5 percent in Winnipeg as of last Friday; given that it is proposed to go up at least a percent and a half to two with the GST; given all analysis will tell us that thousands of jobs will be lost in this province; given the fact the Premier has stated that there is a vacuum in this country on leadership, will the Premier immediately call this week a First Ministers' meeting-as we did with codfish with the Premier of Newfoundland-to oppose from coast to coast to coast the imposition of this tax and bring some sense of reality and practicality back into this country, rather than constitutional and parliamentary chaos, which we see from his federal cousins in Ottawa?

Hon. Gary Fllmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, as the Member may know from reading the newspaper, that was a matter I discussed with Premier Rae on Friday. I of course called on the Prime Minister back in August after the annual Premiers' Conference here to get together a First Ministers' Conference on the economy.

I repeated that call on the 12th of October and issued a news release at that time indicating that we were calling for a First Ministers' Conference on the economy because of all of the problems that we face with respect to the interest rates, with respect to the value of the dollar that is destroying tens of thousands of jobs across the country, many of them in southern Ontario, and so on. I believe very strongly that there Is a need for that. At this point I am aware that a number of the Maritime Premiers are not in favour of doing it without the Prime Minister there.

Their view is that most of the problems, most of the sources of solution to 1:he problems in terms of economic policy are within the realm of the federal Government, and without the federal Government it is impossible to seek solutions to those problems. I am still committed to getting First Ministers together, and we will pursue that matter further to see whether or not there is a consensus to get together as soon as possible. Energy Conservation Government's Position Mr. George Hlckes (Point Douglas): My question is to the Minister of Energy.

This morning this Minister admitted that Wuskwatim power project was being advanced six years be,cause the Government energy conservation target is just over 2 percent, less than half that of the other provinces. Why is this Minister opposed to increasing energy conservation in this province? Hon. Harold Neufeld (Minister of Energy and Mines): Mr. Speaker, I have never stated, I will not state and I will never state that I am opposed to energy conservation in this province or in any other province for that matter. We are in favour of conservation as a Government and as a utility but, Mr.

Speakt~r, we have to set our targets in realistic terms so that we know we can meet them. If we are going to plan our next generation construction on the basis of conservation targets, we had better make certain that we can meet the targets that we set. *

(1340) Mr. Hlcke!i: This morning the chairman said that he would resign rather than increase conservation. Why does this Government want Wuskwatim built rather than increase conservation? Mr. Neufeld: I have to take that the Member for Point Douglas is hard of hearing or he did not understand the answer. The chairman of Manitoba Hydro nevE1r said he would resign rather than accept conservation targets. The chairman of Manitoba

November 20, 1990 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1548 Hydro indicated that if he were directed by a committee of the Legislature to hit targets that were unrealistic, he would rather resign. Minister's Role Mr. George Hlckes (Point Douglas): For what reason is this Minister opposing the role of the Legislature determining policy in setting energy conservation targets in Manitoba when B.C. has a target of over 5.9, Quebec is 5.6 and Ontario has a target of 6.7? Hon. Harold Neufeld (Minister of Energy and Mines): Mr. Speaker , again I have to correct the Member for Point Douglas.

I said from the start that we must set the policy but not the amount of the energy conservation . Hydro must come back to Government and tell them what they can reach in the way of targeting conservation . They must of course be able to convince Government that the targets they set are realistic and are achievable . They should not set targets that are not achievable and again, we should not set targets that are not achievable when we are basing our next generation of construction on the targets that we set. Manitoba Environmental Council Operating Budget Mr. Paul Edwards (St. James): Mr.

Speaker, my question is for the Minister of the Environment. The Manitoba Environment Council is a group whose primary purpose is to consult on important environmental issues and advise Government and, incidentally, has advised this Government most recently against the Conawapa project. We all know how dearly this Government needs that environmental advice. This Government has consistently painted itself as environmentally friendly, yet in a memo dated November 16 last Friday from Wayne Neily, chair of the council, to all council members-I am prepared to table a copy of that memo this morning-Mr.

Neily states , and I quote, most important, perhaps, our operating budget for this year has been cut to about two-thirds of what it was last year. Why has this Government cut the budget of the Manitoba Environmental Council by a third? How does this Minister square that with his daily rhetoric in this House? Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister of Environment): Mr. Speaker, the same way that I square it with Mr. Neily. He does not account for the fact that we give him free staff. Mr. Edwards: In fact Mr. Neily does account for the fact that he is given staff, Mr. Speaker. The one-third cut is above and beyond that.

Why has this Minister in effect punished the Environmental Council for hosting a national conference this fall of Canadian environmental councils by reducing their operating budget this year by the $10,000 cost of hosting that conference, especially and in particular in light of the fact that it was this Government's responsibility and turn to have that conference in any event? Mr. Cummings: Mr. Speaker, I find it a little bit unusual that the dollars this organization agreed to spend for the hosting of this conference should not be somewhat in balance with the numbers that attended.

This was a national conference, but we did not have a large cross section. I have a requirement within my department to make sure that we make best use of our funds. If the implication is that the Environmental Council should have increased its funding above and beyond what it actually cost to operate that forum then I suggest that is a mistake in position. Resource Recovery Institute Review Mr. Paul Edwards (St.James):The Minister knows well the implication of the question .

The implicafon is that it was their turn to host the conference, and the Manitoba Environmental Council for doing that for them had their operating budget decreased. Mr. Speaker , my final question for the Minister is: The NOP tried to disband the Environmental Council in their tenure, and this Government is now trying to starve out that council as well as the Resource Recovery Institute .

Can the Minister explain the contradiction in having two of his high ranking officials participate in a review of the Resource Recovery Institute, expected to be completed by the end of the year, while at the same time letting the Resource Recovery Institute to be wound up, including letting their building go as well as laying off all of their staff? Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister of Environment): Mr. Speaker, the review of RRI operations has been undertaken between the province and the City of Winnipeg, both of whom provided some seed money to start up this pilot project.

1549 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA November 20, 1990 The fact is that the audit team is being led by the City of Winnipeg. They have a responsibility here to make sure that the financial audit and the operations of this institute are viable and do have a sound business plan. I am not sure what he refers to as high ranking officials, but the day that I acknowledge that I do not have a responsibility for expenditures in my department will be a sad day for the people of this province. *

(1345) Resource Recovery Institute Correspondence Request Ms. MarlanneCerllll (Radisson): Mr. Speaker, my question is also for the Minister of Environment. The Resource Recovery Institute is the most recent victim of this Government's practice of, hold back funds then blame the community agency. The initial proposal for the blue-bag program shows that the planned expansion for the program beginning in March 1990 required $100,000 from provincial money. Between March and October the Environment Minister or his department did not return calls or correspondence to clarify follow-through on this program.

Can the Minister table correspondence from this eight-month period and explain to the House his Government's backing out of the agreement with the Resource Recovery Institute? Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister of Environment): Mr. Speaker, we receive a large number of calls in the Department of Environment, as I am sure a number of other departments do, requesting funds. We also receive a number of letters requesting funds. In this particular case we received a request indicating that they required $100,000 to operate without, in my opinion, very much substantiation.

We indicated to them clearly at that time that they would receive something between $30,000 and $40,000 toward the program. Those funds flowed in November of this year, and to indicate that this somehow pulls back is entirely wrong. The fact is that we have indicated, along with the City of Winnipeg, that we require this organization to make sure that they have a business plan and that they are in fact showing that they can operate in a financially sound manner. They expanded far beyond what was the original concept of the pilot project. Blue Bag Program Ms. Marianne Cerllll (Radisson): Mr.

Speaker, to the same Minister, why did this Government not initiate an evaluation of the much demanded blue bag program rather than just letting the program end and not expand it as it was planned? Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister of Environment): Mr. Speak.er, when we met with the RRI in late October, the indication to them was that we wanted to work with them in order to help them develop a business plan and make adjustments to their program :so they could hopefully return to a financially viable footing.

In contacts with my department, they have cancelled a meeting which was to be held just prior to the receipt of the letter that they were going to reduce their services. I note by today's media coverage that they are saying they intend to carry on in some, areas. I am not sure where the funding is coming from, but that is exactly why we have questions to ask about their business plan. Recycllng Programs Government Initiatives Ms. Marianne Cerllll (Radisson) : Mr.

Speaker, since this Government is not capable of co-operating with recycling agencies, will the Minister commit to working with the City of Winnipeg this year to incorporate curbside recycling to a comprehensive garbage collection program for all of Winnipeg? Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister of Environment): Mr. Speakt3r, I think it is fine and responsible of the Opposition to suggest solutions, but I think they should also consider the ramifications of their solutions. I note that the Member for Wolseley (Ms. Friesen) earlier today had indicated that she felt we should have a province-wide curbsiding program.

I see the call today for a city-wide curbsiding program. Perhaps they would be prepared to consider a request to the city that they make sure they provide ample funds within their budget to support that curbsiding. I want to indicate that in the Ontario system it seems to me that we saw some editorial comment that indicates that in terms of at least 1 percentage

November 20, 1990 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1550 of the waste stream where there are some-in the beverage industry, for example, curbsiding only gets 20 percent of the product. *

(1350) VIA Rall Northern Route Protection Mr. Daryl Reid (Transcona): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Highways and Transportation. This Minister , who monitors the loss of VIA routes and jobs the way the Minister of Corporate Affairs monitors gas company profits, once again yesterday said that the remote routes were secure . I will table today, Mr. Speaker , the submission by the VIA Chairman, Lawrence Hanigan, to the Royal Commission on National Passenger Transportation on November 16. For the benefit of the Minister, who has obviously not read this submission, I will quote from the brief- Mr.

Speaker: Order, please; order, please. The Honourable Member kindly put his question now, please. Mr. Reid: More than 100 Manitobans will lose their jobs when the Conservative Governments cut the northern routes. My question for the Minister is: What specific plans does this Government have that will assist these people and will the Minister table these plans today? Hon. Albert Drledger (Minister of Highways and Transportation): Mr.

Speaker, as I have said many times in this House before, I have a verbal commitment from the federal Minister of Transportation, who indicated that we had a five-year guarantee for services to remote communities. I stand by that and I expect that he will. I indicated yesterday as well and I will repeat again that we have already made contact with the federal Minister's office, the present Minister , to make sure that we can reconfirm that position . Transportation Commission Manitoba Submission Mr.

Daryl Reid (Transcona): Two weeks ago this Minister told the House that the rail bus project had been dead for years. Point of Order Hon. Clayton Manness (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, it is certainly not for me to tell Members opposite how to prepare their questions. I have found out though that if you tend to write your questions out you want to include major portions of verbiage in your

preamble. The rules say that there should be no

preamble on supplementaries, and I ask the Member to be called to attention. Mr. Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader): On the same point of order, the Government House leader is quite correct, but I think if he would allow the same leeway that he allows his fe ll ow colleagues, his Ministers, in answering, who often realize after they begin an answer that perhaps they are breaking the rules in terms of tending toward debate. I think in this particular case if he had given the Member the chance to phrase his question, I believe he was just about to do so. Mr. Speaker: Order, please.

I have recognized the Honourable Member for his supplementary question. A supplementary question does not require

preamble. Would the Honourable Member kindly put his question now, please? *** Mr. Reid: Mr. Speaker, since the Province of Manitoba had submitted a submission, will this -(interjection)- Mr. Speaker: Order, please; order, please. The Honourable Member was just to put his question . He was just about to put it. Mr. Reid: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Highways and Transportation. I would like to know whether or not he has read the submission that was made on his behalf to the Royal Commission on National Passenger Transportat ion that was taking place going across this country . Hon.

Albert Drledger (Minister of Highways and Transportation): Yes. Mr. Reid: I like precise answers, Mr. Speaker. For the same Minister, Mr. Speaker, if he did read his department's report- Mr. Speaker: Question, please. Mr. Reid: If he read his department's report, why does he not have a position on either the rail bus, the NTA decision to cut regulations concerning VIA

1551 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA November 20, 1990 Rail, the VIA submission to the royal commission or the cuts to VIA service in Manitoba? Mr. Drledger: Mr. Speaker, I submitted that report to the commission at that time. I also made copies available to this Member, and if the Member is willing we can go through the report together . We can establish exactly some of the points of concern that he has. Public Schools Breakfast Programs Mrs. Sharon Carstalrs (Leader of the Second Opposition): Mr.

Speaker, it was clear in the Estimates of the Department of Education why so many school divisions are having difficulty with funding. Funding formulas have not changed despite the new social services which school divisions have been increasingly asked to bear the burden of. In this year of recession, school divisions are already talking about having to drop programs; we are concerned particularly about food and nutrition programs.

Can the Minister of Education tell this House what estimates his department has of the number of children who arrive at school each and every morning not having had breakfast, many having had inadequate dinners the night before because of the poverty being suffered by their families? •

(1355) Hon. Leonard Derkach (Minister of Education and Training): Mr. Speaker, I can indicate to the Leader of the Third Party that the Department of Education and Training does not keep those kinds of statistics with regard to the precise number of students in each school division who may come to school without an adequate nutritious meal.

I can indicate very clearly that school divisions, who have recognized that there are indeed problems in that area, have taken steps to address that situation by providing some form of nutritious snack for the children so that they can indeed function properly in the school system. Mr. Speaker, as an Education Department we do not provide special funding for specific nutritious meals in our school system. Mrs. Carstalrs: Mr. Speaker, but in the Estimates process the Minister made reference to very expensive programs being provided by Winnipeg School Division No. 1 , who runs 30 of these programs.

Can the Minister tell the House today if he is making a recommendation to Winnipeg School Division No. 1 that they cut this expensive program, thereby th13 nutritional needs of the students? Mr. Derkach: Mr. Speaker, I can indicate to the House that we have recognized some of the programs that indeed are over and above the normal programs that many school divisions have in this province by providing first of all a $2 million grant on an annual basis to Winnipeg School Division No. 1 .

In addition, this year we provided an additional $1.2 million to Winnipeg School Division No. 1 in recognition of the fact that there are special concerns within that division. Winnipeg School Division Breakfast Programs Mrs. Sharon Carstalrs (Leader of the Second Opposition): Mr. Speaker, but the Minister also knows that if they took all of the additional money that Winnipeg 1 had to spend on special needs, it would leave them with $268,000 for every other program this year.

Can the Minister affirm to this House that he will meet with Winnipeg School Division No. 1 and make sure that for this Government department the feeding of these children is an essential pedagogical need? Hon. Leonard Derkach (Minister of Education and Training): Mr. Speaker, I have indicated time and time again that school divisions are going to have to look very carefully at their expenditures and indeed set priorities appropriately.

I have already contacted the chairperson of the Winnipeg Schoo l Division to indicate my willingness to meet with the board and to discuss not only these kinds of issues, but indeed the many issues that face the school divisions and the many decisions, difficult decisions , that school divisions throughout this province are going to b13 required to make in the future. Britcher Lumber Cutting Rights Mr.John Plohman (Dauphin): Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Natural Resources.

Bob Britc her has operated a lumbermill-sawmill in the Duck Mountain area for over 50 years, and during that time he has employed 20 to 30 people

November 20, 1990 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1552 on a permanent basis. He has managed the forest well, using a selective cutting method so there are always mature trees available for cutting. Now he is faced with closure because he does not have any additional cutting rights or quota from this Government.

I ask the Minister of Natural Resources whether he now will consider granting additional cutting rights to this individual so that he can once again operate and so that he is able to ensure that the 20 or 30 jobs that are so desperately needed in that rural area, the Parkland area of this province, are maintained. Hon. Harry Enns (Minister of Natural Resources): Mr. Speaker, I know that the Honourable Member for Dauphin, who was once the Minister of Natural Resources, is extremely familiar with the situation of the Britcher logging operations in that area, and I need not repeat the history .

He is well aware of it. It should be pointed out that the Britcher family chose to sell their cutting rights some time ago. That has made the reallocation somewhat difficult. Nonetheless, I am certainly aware of the contribution they have made in that area and have asked my officials to meet with them, also in conjunction with the Repap people who have I believe an opportunity to work out some arrangement whereby additional cutt ing opportunities may be available for them. •

(1400) Repap Manitoba Inc. Cutting Rights Mr.John Plohman (Dauphin): Mr. Speaker, given that the Minister 's staff have stated that they do not have jurisdiction any longer to administer the cutting rights in the Duck Mountain area, because this whole thing has been part of the massive giveaway to Repap, I ask the Minister , is it this Minister's policy that Repap should decide if anyone, if any of its competitors are granted cutting rights in the Duck Mountain area? Hon. Harry Enns (Minister of Natural Resources): Mr. Speaker, I reject categorically that anything was given away to anybody .

I also point out to the Honourable Member that the cutting rights of Repap are in fact no larger-in fact I believe somewhat smaller-than those that the previous Government operation had under Manfor. It is important that independent loggers and cutters and operators come to a work ing relationship with us and with Repap, who do have cu tt ing rights and overall management responsibilities in those areas. I am sure it can be done.

There are new players in the field, and I have certainly challenged my forestry people to take on their full responsibility in assisting people like the Britchers and other independents to continue their operations in that area. Cutting Rights Renegotiation Mr. John Plohman (Dauphin): Mr. Speaker, it is not only the size of the cutting area it is the road access and the prime forests that were given away to Repap under this deal.

I ask this Minister, as the custodian of the forests on behalf of this Government and on behalf of the people of this province will he now take the step and commit himself, his Government, to renegotiate the Repap deal and ensure that the forests of the Duck Mountain area are not included and are taken out of that cutting area that he gave away? Hon.

Harry Enns (Minister of Natural Resources): I ask the Honourable Member asking me that question that he along with his group and indeed all Manitobans encourage the eventual resolution and the passage of the environme ntal concerns with respect to Repap, that we can get on with the sustainable harvest, sustainable yield that our forests can produce for the sake of many, many people who are employed in the North and throughout Manitoba. That certainly is the most prudent use of those resources. Canada Health Act Amendments Ms. Judy Wasylycla-Lels (St. Johns): Mr.

Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Health. There are a growing number of reports out of Ottawa that the federal Government is drafting amendments to the Canada Health Act. They are amendments that reduce the federal Government's powers to control standards for provincial health care programs receiving federal funds . Community groups and I think all Manitobans are concerned about this development, which accompanies rapidly declining of federal transfers to the provinces.

1553 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA November 20, 1990 I would like to ask the Minister what he can tell us about this worrisome development. Has he been consulted? When did he last speak with his federal counterpart in Ottawa? What input has he had? Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, I believe my honourable friend in her

preamble described the information she presented to this House as rumour, and as such I have absolutely nothing I can contribute to clarify, because I am neither aware of any rumours or their veracity. I certainly have not been privy to any consultation regarding such rumours out of the federal Government. I have absolutely no knowledge that I can offer to my honourable friend to confirm or deny the rumours that she brings to the House. Ms. Wasylycla-Lels: Mr.

Speaker, my reference to reports comes from a number of sources, but specifically the November 5 issue of a journal called Community Action where this item was specifically referenced and I believe should be taken seriously. My question to the Minister of Health is: Will he take a pro-active position and send a strong message to Ottawa that Manitobans will not tolerate any dismantling of the Canada Health Care Act and will not be party to any attempt to reduce national standards in health care for all Canadians? Mr. Orchard: Well, Mr.

Speaker, I have absolutely no problem with the latter part of my honourable friend's question . For two years now, as part of the Council on Health Ministers of Canada with the provincial and territorial Ministers, we have attempted to have the federal Government participate, for instance, in establishing standards and guidelines on medical technology so that Canadians can be assured when their provinces and respective hospitals and institutions are lobbied to bring in the latest technology and health care that it has medical efficacy.

In fact, we are urging the federal Government in areas such as that to bring in standards where none exist to protect the patients of Manitoba and Canada. Ms. Wasylycla-Lels: My final question to the Minister of Health is: Can he give some assurances to this House that he will not and his Government will not tolerate any reduction in national standards as they now exist under the Canada Health Care Act? Will he do so by giving assurances to this House that this Government will not at any point consider any form of user fees, deterrency fees, means tests or premiums? Mr. Orcha trd: Mr.

Speaker, to the first part of my honourabh friend's question, I cannot make a presentation to Ottawa based on the rumours that may abound as to what Ottawa is doing. I can tell my honourable friend that, as I indicated in my second answer, we have urged the federal Government to be partners with the provinces in developing standards for technology. In terms of the second part of my honourable friend's qUE1stion, I have stated publicly in this House and I have stated in two successive election campaigns that we do not view the user fees that she proposes as being a solution to the health care system.

I have said this consistently to professional organizations, to health care workers, to institutions which we fund, that before any consideration of new source revenue be given to the health care system that it is the responsibility of all funded agencies and groups to assure that the dollars they receive from the taxpayers of Manitoba are used to the greatest efficacy of patient care possible , and that means good management of health care-- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Child and Family Services Funding Mr. Reg .~lcock (Osborne): Mr.

Speaker, on several occasions I have raised in this House concerns about cutbacks and the protection of children in this province because of inadequate funding by this Government. Yesterday, Mr. Speaker, we had the grants list tabled, which shows indeed that funding has not gone up to 15 percent. The Premier (Mr. Rlmon) and the Minister of Family Services keep saying it is, but in fact it is going up at a much lower rate. I would like to ask the Minister of Family Services today whall services he is suggesting that the Child and Family Services agencies cut back on in order to meet his budget targets. Hon.

Harold Gllleshammer (Minister of Family Services):: Mr. Speaker, when we tabled the grants list yesterday, the remarks that I made at that time were that the grants list alone could not be used to determine the increase in funding for agencies, that you also had to look at the per di ems that were given to the agencies. We are on record yesterday as

November 20, 1990 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1554 suggesting that the Member look at the whole picture and not simply to grants. -(interjection) - Mr. Speaker: Order, please; order, please. The Honourable Member for Osborne has the floor. Mr. Alcock: I have indeed looked at the whole picture, and I have an analysis of the grants list he has tabled here. I would like to table it now. It suggests that Child and Family Services agencies on average are going to receive 3.75 percent increases this year for service and protection.

Will the Minister tell us if in his child maintenance grants or per diem rates there is a single dollar for the protection of children and the service of administration at those agencies. •

(1410) Mr. Gllleshammer: Mr. Speaker, the primary function of these agencies that we give millions of dollars to is the protection of children; that is their bottom-line mandate. Mr. Alcock: Mr. Speaker, the money that they have given those agencies to protect children has gone up by 3.75 percent, and that is after they have fiddled with the figures. Will the Minister tell us how he expects these agencies to meet their obligations with this kind of increase when, for the same kinds of increases in costs, he gives himself a 13 percent increase in his own office expenditures? Mr. Gllleshammer: Mr.

Speaker, it is no surprise to this side of the House that the Finance Critic of the Liberal Party gets his figures wrong again. Yesterday he was quoted in the paper on some figures and they were inaccurate. We have given the Child and Family Services agencies a substantial increase over the last five years. They are working well with our department to come up with service and funding agreements . We expect that those service and funding agreements will be in place in the not too distant future. Dr. S.L. Bond Research Proposal Mr. Jerry Storie (Flln Flon): Mr.

Speaker, earlier in Question Period the First Minister reminded us that he is in fact chairman of Treasury Board. My question is to the First Minister. Can the First Minister indicate whether he read and approved of a research proposal that was submitted to the Government in September of 1988 from S.L. Bond for which the Government committed some $205,800 .00? Can the First Minister indicate whether he in fact approved of this particular research proposal? Hon. Gary Fllmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, we are talking a couple of years ago. I would have to go back and check. I will take the question as notice.

Provlnclal Audit Mr. Jerry Storie (Flln Flon): Mr. Speaker, my supplementary question is to the Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism, who acknowledged that this study has filed no interim report and may be of very little value to the Province of Manitoba. My question is to the Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism. Will the Minister undertake to advise the Provincial Auditor of the money that has been forwarded to this particular researcher and ask the Provincial Auditor to determine whether in fact the taxpayers of Manitoba got any value for this $205,000 contract? Hon.

Jim Ernst (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): Mr. Speaker, first of all, I did not say anything of the kind that it was of questionable value to the Government. The Government entered into this contract with the researcher from the University of Manitoba on the basis that information would be provided. When that report is tabled with the Government, we will analyze it. At that time we will make a judgment as to whether the amount of money expended on the contract was in fact worth it. Mr. Storie: Mr. Speaker, I have the proposal with me, and my question is to the Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism.

Given that one of the stipulations of the contract was that there would be reporting on a monthly basis, that after the first three months there would be an interim report, will the First Minister or the Minister of Industry and Tourism now ask the Provincial Auditor whether we have wasted $205,000 of the taxpayers' money? Mr. Ernst: Mr. Speaker, until such time as the report is finalized the determination of whether or not the report has value to it is very difficult to determine .

Not even my honourable friend across the way could determine that until such time as a report is tabled with the Government , a final report. In terms of the monthly contact, it is happening on a regular basis

1555 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA November 20, 1990 with staff of my department in accordance with the terms of the agreement. Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Member for Broadway has time for one very short question. Rural Dignity of Canada Court Challenge - Canada Post Mr. Conrad Santos (Broadway): To the Honourable Deputy Premier and Minister Responsible for Seniors, exactly a month ago I asked the Honourable Minister whether or not his Government will support Rural Dignity in its fight against the federal Government cutting down postal services and closing out postal outlets in both rural and urban areas.

Has the Minister reconsidered and restated to consider his position and now will support Rural Dignity, which already has the support of six other provinces in fighting the federal Government to give essential public services to all Canadians, particularly to senior citizens with limited mobility in their postal delivery services? Hon. James Downey (Minister responsible for Seniors): Mr. Speaker, I thank the Member for the question.

Let me first of all clearly indicate to the Member that through the Seniors Directorate, which was the first one established in this province by the Premier that is here in this Government, paying special recognition to the needs of the seniors, something that his former administration did not do for the seniors of this province. We have a very close contact with all the seniors leadership in this province, and the subject matter which he has raised has not come through the leadership of that organization to me through the Seniors Directorate. When it does, it will be treated very seriously and dealt with. Mr.

Speaker: The time for Oral Questions has expired. ORDERS OF THE DAY House Business Hon. Clayton Manness (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, I propose to call the motion to go into Committee of Supply. Before I do, though, I would like to make a number of announcements. Firstly, the Standing Committee of Economic Development called for Thursday, to deal with A.E. McKenzie will be cancelled, Mr. Speaker. We would propose that committee then would be called, and again the Economic Development Committee would be called on Thursday, November 29, at 10 a.m. to consider th,:1 Auditor's Report for A.E.

McKenzie Limited. Secondly, Public Accounts Committee will be called for Thursday, November 29, at 10 a.m. to consider the, Annual Report for March 31, 1989, and the Supplement, Volumes 1 and 2. With respect to today, Mr. Speaker, I believe you might wish to canvass the House to see whether there is unanimous consent to waive private Members' hour today.

Secondly, the Estimates line-up would appear as follows: The Department of Family Services will have its Estimates continued to be reviewed in the committee room outside the House, Room 255, and within the Chamber the Department of Labour will be considered until roughly around 3:30, at which time it will be followed by the Department of Government Services. Mr. Speaker: Is there unanimous consent to waive private Members' hour? That is agreed. •

(1420) Mr. Manness: Mr. Speaker, I should also indicate to the How3e, if by chance Government Services were completed before six o'clock, and depending on the critic:s, we would then move into Highways and Transportation within the Chamber. I then would move, seconded by the Minister of Justice (Mr. Mccrae), that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. Mr.

Speaker: Is there unanimous consent for having Family Services in Room 255, Labour up until 3:30, at which time we will go to Government Services, and if that is done prior to six o'clock, we will be going to Highways and Transportation? Is there unanimous consent to alter the sequence? Agreed. Motion agreed to, and the House resolved itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty with the Honourable Member for St. Norbert (Mr. Laurendeau) in the Chair for the Department of Family Services; and the Honourable Member for Seine River (Mrs.

Dacquay) in the Chair for the Department of Labour, and the Department of Government Services.

November 20, 1990 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1556 CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY-FAMILY SERVICES Mr. Deputy Chairman (Marcel Laurendeau): Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This afternoon this

section of the Committee of Supply, meeting in Room 255, will resume consideration of the Estimates of the Department of Family Services. When the committee last sat, it had been considering items 1.(

f) Agency Relations Bureau:

(1) Salaries $203,000 on page 58 of the Estimates Book. The Honourable Minister, you had some answers to some of their previous questions from the other meeting? Hon. Harold Gllleshammer (Minister of Famlly Services): Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I have a number of items that I would like to table that were requested by the critics: first, some reports and reviews prepared by the Planning and Research branch. The Member for Wellington (Ms. Barrett) requested copies of reports prepared by this branch.

I am pleased to provide the two Opposition Critics with copies of a number of these reports prepared during the past two years. These reports represent examples of Planning and Research's activities and outputs. In addition, of course, the branch prepares briefing notes, analyzes Cabinet submissions on major social policy issues which I am unable to share as they are intended for internal policy development purposes. I have copies of a number of those for the critics. On November 19 the Member for Wellington requested a copy of The Social Services Administration Act.

I am pleased to provide a copy of this Act for the Member, with an additional copy for the Member for Osborne (Mr. Alcock). Also on November 19 the Member for Wellington (Ms. Barrett) requested the job description for the staff of the Agency Relations Bureau. As I indicated yesterday in my response to questions about staffing for this branch, there are three Agency Relations consultants and staff with the branch. Although the incumbents have different backgrounds and experience, all three share the same general job description and title.

I am pleased to provide the Member, and the Member for Osborne, with a copy of the job description. Several days ago the Member for Osborne (Mr. Alcock) requested a revised version of Chart 2 from Family Service Estimates Supplement. The Member asked if the chart could be modified to indicate the portion of program expenditures delivered by external agencies.

I am pleased to provide the two Opposition Critics with a revised chart which breaks down the program component into the costs of programming and services directly administered by the department, for example, income maintenance and day care subsidy expenditures, and the cost of services purchased from external agencies. The revised chart illustrates that, in addition to providing almost $85 million in grants, the department will spend about $86 million of total expenditures in 1990-91 on purchases of services from external agencies. Finally, on November 19, the Member for Wellington (Ms.

Barrett) requested a copy of the comments made by the Provincial Auditor concerning the establishment of an Agency Relations Bureau in the Department of Family Services. I am pleased to provide excerpts from the Audit Observation Report of the Provincial Auditor for the 1989-90 fiscal year relat ing to the establishments and functions of the bureau. Mr. Reg Alcock (Osborne): I would just like to thank the Minister for this, and I thank the department. I think it is a lot of work and it was prepared in a timely fashion, and it is helpful for the process that we are undergoing. Ms.

Becky Barrett (Welllngton): I would echo the comments of the Member for Osborne. I appreciate the information. Under the objectives of the Agency Relations Bureau, the first one is "to develop standardized internal and external policies, procedures and systems to ensure accountability of external agencies receiving public funding." That is a bit unclear to me, because it says, develop standardized policies both internal and external but only relating to external agencies. Could you clarify that, please? Mr.

Gllleshammer: We had to develop guidelines for the agencies to report back to the department and also had to organize internally to be able to receive that information and be able to use it properly. *

(1430) Ms. Barrett: Has that activity taken place now? Are the guidelines and stuff completed at this point? Mr. Gllleshammer: It is an ongoing process, and we are still in the developmental stages.

1557 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA November 20, 1990 Ms. Barrett: The four staff people are still in the process of establishing internal procedures in order to deal with the accountability and the activities that they deal with the external agencies on. Is that the correct-? Mr. Gllleshammer: As we indicated yesterday, this is a new branch, and we are just in the process of establishing these guidelines that can be taken out to the agencies. For the next while, these will be refined and put in place so that the agencies can develop this process with the external agencies. Ms.

Barrett: Have the staff begun their communications with the external agencies? Mr. Gllleshammer: Yes. The staff-as you have indicated, there are four staff in the Agency Relations Bureau-work with the operating branches within the department on ongoing issues with the Child and Family Services agencies and were also involved with the Eastman shelter, which was an issue before the public a few weeks ago. Ms. Barrett: So at this point in the Agency Relations-which I understand is a new division-the external agencies that you are dealing with are, as you say, the Child and Family Services and the Eastman shelter.

This bureau has not yet dealt with other external agencies? Mr. Gllleshammer: Yes, as I indicated yesterday, the Agency Relations Bureau is just in its infancy, and it certainly has been involved with other agencies as well. For instance, the Children's Home of Winnipeg has worked with the department on their service and funding agreements, and the agency was involved in that case along with other Child and Family Services agencies and the Eastman shelter.

I think you will recall, I read into the record yesterday, from the Provincial Auditor, the significance and importance of the work that needs to be done in this area. We anticipate, as the Agency Relations Bureau grows, it will be more involved through our branches with these external agencies. Ms. Barrett: I know it is all anticipatory at this point, but currently-well, let us just talk about what they have been doing with the Child and Family and the Eastman. What has their connection been with Child and Family Services agencies and the Eastman shelter? Mr.

Gllleshammer: The Agency Relations Bureau has been involved with the institutions that we have mentioned. The Member will recall that in the case of the Eastman shelter, there seemed to be dramatic increases in funding, yet a debt situation. They were able to do an audit and assist the branch of the department involved and the shelter to look at their financial situation.

Similarly with Children's Home, where a rather complicated service and funding agreement has been signed and put in place, the Agency Relations Bureau was able to provide comment on the financial situation, and similarly with the Child and Family Services agencies, which are now working with the department to secure these agreements. It is impo,rtant that we look at, not only the funding but at the 1e,xpenditures of these agencies.

As the Member is probably aware, a lot of the discussions that have ts1ken place surrounding all of these issues with Eastman, with Children's Home, with the Child and Family Services agencies, revolve around funding and expenditures. We hopo and sincerely believe that the Agency Relations Bureau is going to assist the branches of the department and those external agencies to come up with realistic projections, where they will be able to have before them the mandate that they are to carry out and have the security of funding to do that pro11ram which has been mutually agreed to. Ms.

Barrett: When you were talking about the work that was done by the Agency Relations Bureau staff with Children's Home, you said that they provide comment. I guess that leads me to my question as to whom do the Agency Relations Bureau staff report, and what kind of authority do they have? Mr. Gllleshammer: They are intended as a support to the various branches that they become involved with. In ei~sence, their final reporting would be through to the Associate Deputy Minister of ManagemEint Services.

I used the word "comment," and I could just as easily use the word "assist," I suppose, in the work that they provide to the various branches of this department to try and come up with agreements that make sense, that are going to work, and that are going to stabilize the agencies that we are working with. Basically, the support they provide is to the various branches that would be involved with these agencies. Ms. Barrntt: The Agency Relations Bureau responds tlhen to requests for assistance for doing what it is that they do from the branch managers or the branches. They react to internal requests.

November 20, 1990 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1558 *

(1440) Mr. Gllleshammer: Yes, they respond to the branches as the branches become involved in negotiating some of these service and funding agreements or contracts that are reasonably complicated. Then they report to the Associate Deputy Minister, as I had indicated, or to the Deputy Minister and myself. The funding for many agencies has been complicated in the past and, in some cases, based on variables which leads to some problems with the agencies.

We are hoping that by signing service and funding agreements and having them based on some sound fiscal basis, it is going to provide some security for the agencies and some comfort for the department so that these agreements work. Ms. Barrett: That seems to clarify the role of the two chartered accountants. Does the program analyst come into this equation? In every case has the program analyst been involved in these Child and Family Service, Eastman and Children's Home projects? Mr.

Gllleshammer: Yes, the program analyst is still not fully with the branch, but it is anticipated that the program analyst will work with the other members of the branch to see that the program is in place, and that the agencies are in fact delivering a desirable program within the bounds of the fiscal guidelines that are set. Ms. Barrett: Mr. Deputy Chair, in the cases of these agencies that have been working with the Agency Relations Bureau, has that function been performed and, if so, by whom? Delivering desirable programs within the fiscal boundaries, I believe you said. Has that been dealt with or not? Mr.

Gllleshammer: Yes, the Agency Relations Bureau works with the specific branch and they are the ones, the people in place in the branch that have the program knowledge.

I think I see what the Member is getting at and I would remind her that the Agency Relations Bureau is still in its infancy and it is going to take some time before it is fully up and running, although it has participated with the agencies that I have mentioned, Children's Home, Eastman shelter and the Child and Family Service agencies, but again I would emphasize that it works with the branches who are cognizant of the programs and we would see the development of a good working relationship between the Agency Relations Bureau and the various branches to work together to meet a common goal. (Mrs.

Rosemary Vodrey, Acting Chairman, in the Chair) Ms. Barrett: Madam Acting Chair, could you explain what the purchase of service principles are that the Agency Relations Bureau operates under? This is the first paragraph of the Activity Identification. Mr. Gllleshammer: Madam Acting Chairperson , in the service and funding agreements that are be!ng put in place it is important for both the agency and the Government to understand the exact services that are being purchased and that the appropriate funding is provided for the purchase of those services.

This would be one aspect that the Agency Relations Bureau would be involved in with the branches within the department and with the agencies. Ms. Barrett: So it appears to me that there is definitely a need in this context, in this work of the Agency Relations Bureau, for people who understand not only fiscal principles, but also the program principles.

There are, to my way of thinking, these two streams here and what I am hearing you say is that, as the Agency Relations Bureau has just begun, the program analyst, who I am assuming would take over some of that program component-I am assuming that no one expects, nor should they, chartered accountants to be able to understand the program elements, they are more interested, or their expertise would be more in the area of the fiscal end of it.

The program analyst will deal with the program delivery elements and I guess I am concerned that not only that person and the staff of Family Services, who are also dealing with this, but that care and concern be given to make sure that the agencies, who are being worked with on establishing these purchase of service principles, are full partners in this endeavour, being the front-line delivery of the service and that the agency-relations people and the Family Services' staff are, of necessity, at least one or two steps back from the actual program delivery. Mr.

Gllleshammer: We agree with what the Member is saying and I can assure you that of the 1,800 employees that are working in this department, not many of them are accountants, and we are not concerned that we are overloading the

1559 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA November 20, 1990 department with accountants by having two people work with the Agency Relations Bureau. The point is well taken however, that the Agency Relations Bureau must work with the branches and the branches are fully cognizant of the services that are provided. I certainly agree that a good working relationship must exist between the Agency Relations Bureau and the branches, and that they have some common goals to work with the agencies in putting these service and funding agreements in place. Ms.

Barrett: I think this is a tripartite agreement, if you will, the Agency Relations branch, the Family Services division staff and the agencies that they are working with. There has to be input by all three parts. Mr. Gllleshammer: Yes, while the agreement will be signed between the department and the external agency, certainly we expect the Agency Relations Bureau to make a very valuable and constructive input into the process and the relationship between the particular branch and the Agency Relations Bureau to be a positive one.

They work together with the funding agencies to come forward with plans that are workable, that both the agencies and the branches understand, that have objectives that are within the scope of mandated agencies and that in turn funding is supplied for the purchase of those services. Ms. Barrett: Madam Acting Chair, has the Agency Relations Bureau had to do the second level under Activity Identification, "Undertakes assessments and audits of external agencies as necessary"?

I guess the answer to that is, yes, the Agency Relations Bureau has been doing that in the cases of the organizations that you mentioned earlier. I guess the question is as necessary or as recommended. Is there a determination as to how that will be decided? Will there ever be cases that you anticipate where the Agency Relations Bureau will be asked by an external agency to act? Or is this basically the department saying, there is a problem here; let us put the Agency Relations Bureau to work on it? •

(1450) Mr. Gllleshammer: Most of the external agencies have their own accounting people in place, but it is certainly possible that in working with Government a request may come forward for the Agency Relations Bureau to become involved. It seems to date, with the examples I have mentioned, with the Eastman shelter and Children's Home, they were respondinfl to problems which were self-evident.

With the co-operation of the branch of the department and with the external agency involved, they have been able to conduct an audit and to make recommendations and to come up with service and funding agreements that all sides can live with. We feel, even in its infancy, that it has provided some valuable service to date. We would hope that it would continue to do so. Again I would harken back to the Auditor's Report and a very strong recommendation on his part that this is something that was lacking in the past, that was vital for the future, and that we were certainly on the right track.

It just seems that we are dealing with increased demand in some areas, and the amount of money that this department spends is not a paltry sum. It is important to the taxpayers of this province that they have confidence in these agencies , and that very hard-earned tax dollars, which we believe are going to be scarce as we come into the 1990s--it is important for everyone in the agencies, in Government and, I believe, even as Opposition Members that we look very responsibly at how we deliver this service and be able to have the confidence of the general public. Ms.

Barrett: I will not disagree with any of the principles that the Minister has stated about the need to expend judiciously and wisely. Certainly, resources are not unlimited. Another question-I am not sure if this is the appropriate spot to bring the question uJ>-but I know that within the Family Dispute Services division, the shelter directors have met and have shared concerns with the department about the funding formula : basically, the amount of money that is granted in the core funding versus the amount-or the proportion of support that is given through the per diems.

Will the Agency Relations Bureau be involved in those discussions? My understanding is that there is ongoing discussions about this activity. Will the Agency Relations Bureau be providing comment into this process? Mr. Gllleshammer: The Agency Relations Bureau will not be directly involved in looking at the funding model but, more precisely, at looking at some of the agencies. You are absolutely right. The directors of the shelters do meet from time to time. My first day on the job I had the distinct pleasure of meeting them last week in Brandon, with the official opening of the new Westman Women's Shelter.

I understand that

November 20, 1990 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1560 the shelter directors spent a couple of days in Brandon, I am sure, timing their meeting to be able to visit the new shelter and to exchange ideas. The shelter directors have expressed some thoughts on funding. I also had the pleasure of visiting Osborne House here in Winnipeg and meeting with the shelter director there and with some of the staff and board members, and some very positive comments were made about the funding, the model that is in place now.

In fact, I believe the comment was made that it was one of the best funding models in Canada and that Osborne House was very pleased with the stabilization that has taken place with funding to the shelters, because if you go back some two years, funding existed at a much lower level, and the funding changes that have occurred in the last two years have added a great deal of stability to the shelter system. Having said that, however, the funding model and the information that comes forward from the directors is something that will be under review, and the department will be looking at how funding is put in place.

Shelters, of course, and boards of shelters have a responsibility to look very carefully at income and very carefully at expenditures , just as you and I have to do as individuals and try and live within our budget. I think it is important that the boards that are duly elected to operate the shelters make decisions based on the income that they are going to have. I think it is important that the shelter directors meet, as you indicated they do from time to time, and share ideas. You know , ideas have come forward from some of them through to my office on how they can assist each other.

I give the example of a time when adjacent shelters perhaps can assist each other. If they are in a situation where they have more clients than they have room for and an adjacent shelter perhaps is empty, or half empty, rather than placing people in hotel rooms , where feasible they could perhaps redirect clients to a nearby shelter, and that shelter could gain from the perdiems. Ms. Barrett: Madam Acting Chair, I think we will probably get into this in more detail under the Family Dispute Services.

I am concerned, however-and I think this does relate to possibly the role of the Agency Relations Bureau-when I hear, as I have heard this Minister , the Premier and other Ministers talk about the analogy between agencies such as shelters and Child and Family Service agencies, that everyone has to learn to live within their income . •

(1500) A couple of comments. I think the analogy in both Child and Family Service and for sure the shelters breaks down a bit, because to me, you have a much easier time of living within your budget the more income you have, and the more secure that income is, that allows you to have a greater proportion of discretionary income.

I would suggest that because of the lack of base funding and the lack of increase in funding, in particular for the shelters, the lack of a known base from which to fund, it becomes more and more impossible for anyone, a family or an agency or a Government, to budget carefully, because the discretionary income portion of that budget becomes smaller and smaller. If you are telling shelters to make decisions based on the income that they have, their decisions are based on the core funding grant that is received by this Government.

You cannot ask a shelter or a child and family service agency to effectively budget when much of their income is based on maintenance, per diems, those kinds of things that are tied to quantity, that are tied to the numbers of people that they service. To provide good service, a shelter should be open 24 hours a day , staffed adequately so that the shelter could function at capacity. When you have a majority of your revenue based on per diems, you are bound to not be able to adequately provide funding, and you are bound to go into debt.

I will get into that more in detail, but I think the whole concept of being able to budget is similar to what the series on poverty that we have been seeing in the newspapers and on television recently, that the closer you are to the poverty line, or under the poverty line as many of our citizens are, the less you are able to manage. In some cases you cannot manage , because there just is not enough money. If you have X number of children, they have to be fed, and that is an analogy I think that makes more sense than the shelter.

My question I guess is that when you are talking with Child and Family Service agencies, which I assume you will be, and also shelter agencies, shelters because their discretionary income, the income that is not tied to flow-through money or per diems or maintenance grants, but the money that we had tabled for us, which is less than four percent

1561 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA November 20, 1990 average for Child and Family Services and virtually no expansion for shelters. Is the Agency Relations Bureau going to be involved in dealing with these agencies, in making recommendations as to how they can deliver service within these parameters? Are there sound fiscal principles that are at work here? I would suggest that there are not. Mr. Gllleshammer: I would like to respond to a number of the comments about shelters before we get back to the Agency Relations Bureau.

We have indicated that we are committed to reviewing the funding model for shelters, and I would repeat that again. When the Member talks about a lack of funding, and I have indicated on numerous occasions that there has been quite an increase in funding. We do not feel that there has been a lack of attention, or a lack of dollars put into the shelter program, some 47 percent over two years. The funding increase has been quite dramatic. What we are asking shelters to do is to make management decisions.

You alluded to staffing decisions and said that shelters had to be staffed at all times as if they were at maximum capacity. I am not so sure that you are right in that area. If the shelter is vacant, it would seem to me not necessary to have it staffed as if it was at maximum capacity. I think there are shelters that are vacant for weeks at a time. On the one hand, that is good news, that there is not a need to access a particular shelter. I think that management decisions have to be made which take that into consideration.

The shelters know full well what their base funding or core funding is, and it is a good portion of the income that the shelter receives. By the same token, the per diems, I think, are certainly volume sensitive. The shelters have to be aware of what the potential volume is and certainly cannot staff and expend money as if they were at capacity at all times. More and more we see the management decisions that have to be made by volunteer boards being crucial to the survival of these agencies and putting them in a position whereby they can perform the mandate that they have before them.

In response to the final part of that question, most certainly the Agency Relations Bureau will be involved with the branches in working with agencies, and with the shelters in determining what services they should provide, and giving the type of assistance that is going to make for the signing of a service and funding agreement that both sides can live with, sc, that they know exactly what services they are providing and what funding they are going to get. Ms.

Barrett: I guess I am not an expert in management practices, but I cannot think, and I hope the Minister can tell me I am incorrect, of a manageme ,nt model or a staffing model that provides for reasonable working conditions for staff, that on the other hand says that if the shelter is vacant, you do not need staff. On the surface, that is a very logical position. The whoh:1 point of the shelter concept, the whole point basically of Child and Family Services, of provision of services like these two major classifications, is that you never know when the need is going to be there.

You do have to make provision for there to be adequate numbers of staff on hand for the hours that shelters are open. Shelters sh1:>uld be open 24 hours a day, 365 days of the year, because the need is always there. This to me is one of the major stumbling blocks, if you will, 110 bridging the gap between what the shelter dirE,ctors and the shelter workers have stated, and what is being stated by the Government, that good management practices mean that you can live within a very small core budget and have a high percentage, of your budget based on volume turnover.

If you do not have adequate staff, then you cannot pro,vide the service. You cannot have adequate staff given the core funding amounts that have been in place in particular shelters, but in the same category, in the same way, Child and Family Services. Is there a management practices model that will address this problem? *

(1510) Mr. Gllleshammer: I do not think there is a model that we can apply to all of the shelters that is going to answer their staffing problems for them. Hypothetically, if the shelter is empty and its maximum ,capacity is 10, the board and their managers should be able to arrange staffing to indicate that there would be a different complement of staff the•re when the shelter was empty and additional staff added when the shelter was at maximum capacity. I think by good management practices, they would be able to come to grips with that problem, so

November 20, 1990 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1562 that they do not have maximum staffing and an empty shelter. I think that the Agency Relations Bureau and the branch of the department that is responsible for shelters would be pleased to work with the board to help them find that sort of solution. We would also offer the services to do some board development, for boards with changes from time to time and new members coming on and perhaps people without the experience in certain aspects of board decision-making.

The shelter should have the capacity to react very quickly, when they go from zero percent occupancy to 80 percent or 90 percent occupancy. I think that sort of management can be put in place. Ms. Barrett: I do need to take exception to this because most shelters have between five and seven staff people. They do not have 150 to 200 people that they can say, okay, this is shift 1 and this is shift 2, and we will move you around, like perhaps they can do in major corporations where there is more flexibility.

We are dealing with a very limited number of people, even when the shelters are fully staffed and fully operational; we are dealing with administrative components that traditionally are dealt with during business hours; we are dealing with needs to take families to-particularly in rural shelters, where transportation and service provision in that nature can be a major time component of a single person's day. I know that they could take an entire day, one person going with one family or one women to a lawyer or to a doctor , that sort of thing. The economies of scale just do not work here.

The other thing is that staff are paid at a very low wage. As it is now, if you look at what a staff of a-say the Eastman shelter, time on, time off, they are doing ridiculous-not because the management is incapable or incompetent, but because the staffing component is so narrow and so inadequate.

They are being asked to do sometimes two and three 16-hour shifts at a time, where in the past they have been asked to do this and part of that is because sometimes there are more families in than in others, but to say that you can make those kinds of adjustments on a very short notice is, I think it would be impossible given the small number of staff that we are dealing with here and impossible given the fact that staff need to have a reasonable sense of what their hours of work are. We are talking about work here. I know many shelter workers find it difficult.

They do incredibly long hours, and they are very committed, but the bottom line is that I am sure basic employment standards requires that they know more or less when they are going to be working. So in order to cover basically the shelter operations, you do need to have people on. The other thing is that at times when shelters are not completely full, that is the time you can do outreach, you can do follow-up with families who have left, which is an incredibly important component of any kind of ongoing preventive program.

It should be a really big part of shelter operations and is cut back because of the inadequate funding base. My bottom line is that I do not think there is a management-practices model in existence that will enable shelters and Child and Family Services agencies, to name only two, to provide adequate service, given the funding levels that they are currently operating under and given the funding formula that is currently in place.

I think that is what the shelter directors unanimously stated last year in their report, that there needed to be a clear re-exa mination of the funding formula and the balance, and that a higher percentage of funding needed to go into the core operations and a smaller percentage needed to go into the per diem expenses. I would suggest that is probably the same kinJ of principle that we could apply over the entire thing. The discretionary income component, to put it into the personal family terms, needs to be expanded.

The amount of money that they can spend doing these things, that they know they have to work with, needs to be expanded and less volume-sensitive funding, just because of the nature of the business. Mr. Gllleshammer: Madam Acting Chairperson, I guess what we are talking about in the case of the shelters is the fact that the shelters are relatively new and there is an evolution taking place. Some of the problems that the Member identifies perhaps are peculiar to the smaller shelters, because I can tell you at Osborne House they feel very comfortable with the funding model.

It is maybe important to identify the per diems, which you refer to as discretionary income, are in fact discretionary income, and you cannot plan for the operation of the shelter as if it were guaranteed income. One could ask the question, if a particular

1563 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA November 20, 1990 shelter was able to operate a couple of years ago with $50,000 or $60,000 and appeared to operate successfully, why does it not operate successfully when they receive $150,000.00? I think this is where the management side of it comes in. There has been that rapid growth in income where the income has more than doubled, grown at perhaps 150 percent. If they succeeded with substantially less money, why are they failing with so much more money?

I think it raises the whole issue of management, and we again would repeat that we are committed to reviewing the funding model. We have put in place a service and funding agreement, whereby the particular agency has agreed to provide certain services and will be getting additional funding. I think that, even though the shelter is small, management practices are very important. I do believe with a staffing component that there has to be some flexibility perhaps with full-time people and some part-time people. Many businesses have to react to peak demand times by having part-time staff come in.

Given the desire for employment in communities, I think that board and management have to put in place staffing components which reflect the demand on the service. •

(1520) Ms. Barrett: Again, as I have stated, we will get into this in more detail. I just did want to put on the record that I think it would be, particularly given the demographics of the population in Manitoba, a very dangerous precedent to assume--and I am not suggesting that this is happening-but to assume that a model and a funding formula that works for Osborne House will work for any other shelter in the province just because of, for one thing, the economies of scale, and for another thing, the fact that the distances between these shelters is great. (Mr.

Deputy Chairman in the Chair) Some of the elements that I have spoken about earlier I will bring up again when we are into more detail. I do believe that we need to be very responsive to the differing needs and the differing elements that our population and our geographic configuration require of us, and that we must not state that because Osborne House is functioning with this funding formula, this funding formula can be transposed to other shelters. At that point I will end my comments on this area.

I have a lot of questions, but because this is a new area, because it has not got up and running, I think the answers will probably be hypothetical until we have a little more experience with what actually is happening with this bureau. Mr. Gllleshammer: The geography of the province certainly is a factor. I am not sure whether one shelter being 30 minutes or 45 minutes removed from anothtir shelter necessarily is a big problem. It may be a problem in certain cases, and I think that would be case specific. If shelters can work together, they can certainly assist each other.

The point is well taken that if the funding formula suits Osborne House, it may not be the most suitable for one other agency, but we have made a commitment to look at the funding model. Again I would repeat that it seems that in the evolution and growth of agencies they did survive with significantly less funding. I do not believe they should fail simply because they got quite an enhanced level of funding, but we are prepared to look at that. I would repeat that boards have to be sensitive to their own particular needs and their own local requirements.

I think, too, that, in terms of staffing and in terms of expenditures, we have to pursue the type of co-operation that can exist between shelters. If one is overloaded and sending people to a hotel, and there is a shelter that is empty 45 minutes away, we make use of that wherever possible so that the per diems could flow, this discretionary funding could flow, and that the services that are there could be provided. Mr. Alcock:: Perhaps I can start in a discussion of this area with that comment. I appreciate the remarks that the Minister makes in terms of agencies needing to co-operate and share resources.

I believe that is a philosophy that is common in the social services. I think that is how they began; it was through groups coming together to share reHources and to help each other. The Minister has said several times in response to questions from the Member for Wellington (Ms. Barrett) that boards must make decisions based on the income they have. While that sounds on the surface like a logical and appropriate sort of statement to make, what does the Minister advise agencies do when they have increases in the volume of work that they are expected to respond to, arising from circumstances that are beyond their

November 20, 1990 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1564 control? What advice does he have for the agencies then? Mr. Gllleshammer: I would answer that in the context of the shelters that the Member for Wellington (Ms. Barrett) and I were talking about. We were talking about staffing levels for shelters when they were empty, or when they were partially full, or when they were completely full. My comment was in regard to the fact that the board and management must have the flexibility to address the volume that the shelter had to deal with. I will just leave it at that. Mr.

Alcock: The Minister has made similar comments though on the boards of other agencies, so I would ask the question one more time. When an agency is faced with a change in its workload, when it is faced with an increase in the request for service that it is mandated to provide, increases that are not within the control of the agency, but arise from the community, and then increases which place an exceptional demand on the agency, what does the Minister expect the agencies to do? Mr.

Gllleshammer: As the Member well knows, the agencies over the last five years have experienced the increase in volume and have increased their activities. By the same token, funding has increased to the agencies. Agencies provide quite a variety of functions , and certainly their primary functions are to protect children and families at risk.

The agencies are c urrently working with the department in establishing priorities and talking about funding and hopefully in the near future will be able to sign service and funding agreements whereby they will know the services that they are called upon to provide, and the exact funding that they are going to receive. The agencies have experienced a fair growth over the last five years, both in the client base that they serve and in the funding that they have received from Government. We are in a transition period as we get these service and funding agreements put into place. Mr.

Alcock: The Minister makes the point that the requests for services have increased and that funding has increased . He is correct on both counts. The question is: Does he have any study or has Agency Relations done any examination of whether or not the increase in funding has kept pace with the increase in the demand for service?

Mr.Gllleshammer:Yes, we believe that the funding has increased at a rate that keeps pace with increased volume, but I have indicated that the Agency Relations Bureau and, more appropriately, the branch that deals with Child and Family Service agencies is right now in the process of examining the workload and working with budgets for the coming year with the prospect of putting in place service and funding agreements that both the Government, as the funder, and the agency, as the delivery vehicle of the service, can both live with. Mr. Alcock: I certainly support the concept of service agreements.

I think that they are an important tool that will go some way to answering some of these questions into the future, but the problem is the base that we are starting with. The Minister has said in response to my last questions that he believes that funding has kept pace with the demands for services over the last five years. Can he table an investigation and examination of that that shows that to be the case? *

(1530) Mr. Gllleshammer: We do not have a document to table for you, but every year the department does an analysis in terms of studying the budget, so that the budget increases will be appropriate for the agencies. The Member is probably aware of the service and funding agreement that has been signed with Children's Home of Winnipeg, as an example, where services can be identified and funding put in place for the services that the agency will provide.

This type of service and funding agreement hopefully will be something that we can put in place with other agencies, and we can then more accurately determine the services and the funding and match the two together . Mr. Alcock: Just to respond to the Minister's comment, no, I am not familiar with the agreement in any detail that has been signed between Children's Home, but I did research the issue of funding agreements in some detail, looking at the Ontario models that have been used. I think there is great value in signing them.

I would point out an important difference though when one talks about Children's Home of Winnipeg versus a Child and Family Service agency or a shelter, and that is the work the Children's Home does is not volume-sensitive . The Children's Home can say, although they do not-I mean I think it is a

1565 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA November 20, 1990 very fine agency which attempts to stretch its dollars absolutely to the limit and often past the limit in order to provide services-we have only so many beds, we are only going to provide so much service, but a shelter who has an abused woman at the door or a Child and Family Service agency who gets called by a school and says, "We have an abuse case here," cannot say, "Sorry, we have reached our quota for the day." They must respond, so there is a volume component to the work that they do.

First he said that the belief is that the funding has kept pace with the demands for service, and then he said, when I asked if he could produce some evidence of that, that they do not have a document that they can table. What evidence do you have to proffer that funding has kept pace with the demands for service? Mr. Gllleshammer: I have indicated that the department does an analysis of the services provided by agencies in the determination of the budgets.

The Member has recognized that there has been a dramatic increase in funding over the last five years, and we agree that there has been an increase in the volume of work to do. The issue of the workload is a volatile one. We spent some time this morning at an agency who questioned why their intake was down and asked us if we had an answer for that, and we did not. They themselves did not know why their volume was down, and they, in fact, had questioned Child and Family Service agencies, two of them in Winnipeg, regarding the volume that came to this agency from time to time.

In fact, there did not seem to be an apparent explanation of that. The point I am making is that the volume is sometimes somewhat unpredictab le . We do recognize there has been an increase in the volume since the decentralization. There has also been a tremendous increase in the funding. We are hoping in this year of transition that the Child and Family Service agencies working with that branch of the department can refine these agreements and that the agencies will feel some comfort level in knowing what their income is and what services they are to provide.

The mandate for the agencies in legislation, of course, is a very broad one, and I think the service and funding agreements will perhaps refine in some respects some

interpretations of that legislation. Mr. Alcock: Let us just come around this. If the Minister, by the way, in responding to this next question, could tell me the name of the agency that is experiencing the decrease in volume, then perhaps I could respond to the comments that he made, because I think it is extremely important that the Minister differentiate between those agencies that provide the service to the front-line agencies, and therefon can control their volume of services, versus those agencies that are on the front line.

For example, I know it was reported the other day that MacDonald Youth Services is reporting a decrease in its intake. MacDonald Youth Services specifically i!; not a front-line agency. It provides a service directly to the front-line agencies and services a 1:lientele that is predominantly older teen-aged boys; and, if the agencies are cutting back in services to older teen-aged children, as they indicate they are because of budget constraints, then it quite understandable that MYS's intake would be down. It is not commendable, but it is certainly understandable.

The Minister did say that while he has no report, or presumably an investigation, to table, the department does do an analysis every year to demonstrate that their funding has kept pace with the rate of growth of services. Would he then table the analysis year over year for the last five years to show us that this is indeed the case? Mr. Gllleshammer: The Member is asking for internal documents that go to Cabinet and Treasury Board and we will not be tabling them here. The agency that I visited this morning was, in fact, MacDonald Youth Services, and they certainly explained thE1 program that they have there.

It is my understanding the youths can be referred through to the MacDonald Youth Services without any cost back to the agencies. I simply use that as an example of an agency that exists and has existed in the city for a long time that is experiencing one of these variables in the system. Mr. Alcock: Now we come down to a problem because the Minister and certainly the Premier {Mr. Filmon) are prepared to condemn the agencies based on the analysis done by this department of a workload of these agencies.

We have studies done by the department and the agencies which indicate that workload is well in advance of the support that they receive, in fact, approaching, according to one study, a critical level. We have studies done by the School of Soda! Work that suggest that funding and support has not kept pace over the last five years.

November 20, 1990 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1566 The Minister or his department, instead of responding to those and showing some evidence that what they believe to be the case is indeed the case, just insist that they have internal documents approved. That is well if you have proof. Let us have that debate. Let us have it on the table so that the agencies, and the public, and all of us can agree that this is indeed the case and there needs to be a change in the kind of services. I, to date, have not seen a single piece of evidence that suggests that is the case, and I would love to see some. *

(1540) Mr. Gllleshammer: I would like to take the opportunity to correct the Member. I have not condemned any agencies. I have not condemned staff of agencies . I have visited three of the Child and Family Service agencies in the province and certainly I have high praise for the work that front-line staff do in very difficult times. I have a lot of respect for people who work with young people who are at risk and families who are experiencing difficulty. I think that there are some wonderful people involved in the services that are provided for young people and the disadvantaged in this province.

My department staff have worked well with agencies and work is in progress to bring forth these service and funding agreements. I think that the Member would do well to allow these negotiations to take place and these service and funding agreements to come into place. I believe that it is the right direction. There are a number of reforms that I think have to be made in our system. We look forward to putting them in place in the continuing years of our mandate as we form Government in the latter half of the 1990s that allow us to bring these reforms to the Child and Family Service agencies.

When I met with the board chairman and the chairman of the combined boards the president of the association in her first statement said that they wanted to form a partnership with Government. I reacted to that very swiftly to say that we would be most pleased to work with these agencies and their boards along with Government because I think we have a common goal, a goal to provide better service for the young people and the families at risk in this province.

I am sure the Member occasionally reads the papers as I do and watches the news media where there is documentation of numbers of people who are at risk in society and people that in many cases it is very difficult to find solutions for. I think we have a challenge to make the system better, and Government spends a tremendous amount of money in this department, some $535 million. I am pleased that we are in a situation where we are simply examining how that money is spent so that we can examine the system and find a better way to do things and a better way to deliver service.

We have signed, as I indicated before, a service and funding agreement with Children's Home, an organization that survived for many, many years on different types of ad hoc funding and funding that was accessed from various levels of Government. I think it is important that we put in place some funding that agencies and shelters are assured of-and the Member for Wellington (Ms. Barrett) and I were in discussion on this earlier this afternoon-so that they know exactly what their funding is and what is expected of them. This is the process that is happening right at this time.

We feel that we are on the right track. Unfortunately, we do not have instant results. We cannot say, yes, by adding that 15 percent to the budget this year we have fixed everything. We think that we can, as I say, over a number of years, provide some answers and turn these agencies and the department in a direction which is going to meet with the approval of Manitobans generally and probably even Opposition Members but it is going to take some time. Mr. Alcock: I suppose I deserved that for the comment I made off the top.

We are beginning to slip into debate, and I would like to continue with questioning, but I am forced to make a couple of comments on it. I do want to differentiate. I think the Minister is making an honest attempt to get around to agencies . I think that is important that he get out and see what is happening out there in the real world and not simply rely on analysis that is fed to him through people who have no hand in delivering direct services, frankly.

I mean, that is a feeling that I think the agencies have held for a long, long time that it is time that this department begin to work in the real world and begin to get a sense of the pressures that agencies are really feeling. There is a problem. There is a debate here. The debate is around the pressure that these agencies feel because of the increased pressure for service

1567 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA November 20, 1990 when you advertise child abuse or when you advertise spousal assault services. That produces more pressure. The telephones begin to ring, people begin to come to the centres. That is a fact. That increase in the volume of service is a fact. The Minister has admitted to that. The question is: ls the support the department is delivering, has it kept pace with that increase in volume? Now the Minister has said that it has. There are studies in existence that suggest that it has not.

All I am asking the Minister to do is to table a single study, a single analysis that presents the other side of the argument. Mr. Gllleshammer: I have indicated to the Member that the analysis that the department does is for the department, for Treasury Board and for Cabinet. These documents are not for public consumption, but it gives us some comfort level that the funding increases reflect the increase in the demand.

I guess, in fact, we are not talking about a highly scientific thing which we can calibrate to show that there has been some exact changes, but we feel from the analysis within the department that there has been sufficient increase in funding. I would emphasize again that we are in a transition period as we get into these agreements where we are going to try and bring some stability to the situation. Yes, I have made an effort to get out into the real world and visit as many of these agencies and groups that deliver service as possible.

I bring to the job a lifetime in the real world, and I am not overwhelmed by some of the things that I have seen that agencies do. I think what is at stake here is the development of a relationship between Government and agencies where we are pulling together to solve these problems . I would readily admit that the type of work that agencies do does involve some pressure , that they are dealing with very sensitive issues, that they are dealing with very volatile individuals. Again, I would emphasize, I have not condemned the agencies.

I have praised them in the work that they do, and I think that they will continue to make decisions on a daily basis which affect the lives of people who are very vulnerable. You know that there is a high sense of dedication to the job by many of the people that work in the field and it is a very, very difficult job. I think if you look at the reaction that comes forward from the general public sometimes, even on the poverty issues that have been highlighted in the paper and the electronic media, there is you know a high degree of talent that is required to work with these people.

I do not have any study, but I expect there is a burnout rate with social workers that is significant. I can tell you the same thing happens in the school system as people work with these pressures, and I think the professional development that people expose themselves to in the school system or social workers is very important, that they keep current on new techniques and ways in which they can work together to do the job that faces them. So it is a demanding job, and I think a vital service that this province has duly recognized.

Over the last three years Family Services has been one of the departments that has received the highest increases in budget, along with Health and Education. I think it reflects a concern and a commitment on the part of our Government and we, in this year of transition are saying, is there a better way to spend this money? Can we examine what we are doing in Family Services with the Child and Family Services agencies? Can we find better ways of doing things? •

(1550) Just as I talked earlier of shelters and boards of shelters co-operating, I think it is important that the Family Services agencies not only co-operate with the department in reaching these agreements, but that they co-operate amongst themselves as they share some of the service delivery that takes place, for instance in the City of Winnipeg. There may be ways of doing things better, and hopefully the service and funding agreements will identify some of these ways.

I am sure there is not a board out there or an agency out there that would not agree that examining what it is they do could be a beneficial thing. Mr. Alcoclt: I am pleased the other Minister recognized just how hard the people that work in this field work. He mentioned though documents that are produced for Treasury Board and Cabinet analysis. He says analysis exists that suggest these agencies are funded adequately to meet these services they are expected to provide. He is unwilling to share that information with us at the current time. Is this the analysis that the Premier (Mr.

Filmon) used when he went on the Peter Warren show and said basically that the managers

November 20, 1990 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1568 of these agencies were incompetent and the boards did not know what they were doing? Mr.Gllleshammer: I would caution the Member not to put words in anybody else's mouth. I think you have the opportunity to question other Members of the Legislature in Question Period and have done so and received answers. Mr. Alcock: Well, I am not to ask questions then? Mr.

Gllleshammer: I would be prepared to answer questions on comments that I have made and about the department , but I think the Government, the Cabinet has recognized the valuable work that is being done, as I have indicated a few minutes ago, with increases in funding over the last three years, and a commitment to examine if there is a way to do things better. Again, I would emphasize the process that we are in the middle of at this time, and I would hope the Member would be patient and allow this process to take place, this transition to the service and funding agreements.

I am sure that you are going to see a better system evolve from it. Mr. Alcock: Well, as the Minister knows there is no one more patient than I. I think it is a fair comment that the Minister makes, that he should not be answerable for statements made by somebody else, although the somebody else in this case was indeed the Leader of this Government, who presumably had something to buffer the statements that he makes publicly over and over again. The debate that is arising here is, now the Minister today said that they have an analysis. They believe that funding has kept pace with the demands for service.

When I asked him about that, he said he did not have a document , but they do have an analysis. Yet, when I continue to ask-I can show you reports that say the opposite , that say that funding has not kept pace. If funding has kept pace, defend yourselves. Give us the evidence, show us the facts. We are here to talk about funding, support your case. Mr. Gllleshammer: Well, I am just exceedingly pleased that the Member is patient. However, he can ask that question as many times as he likes, and the answer is the same.

Internal documents that are taken to Treasury Board and Cabinet are not going to be tabled here at the committee. I recognize also that he speaks very highly of our Premier, and that the Premier is well versed in what is happening in Government, and speaks out on Government issues and has a tremendous knowledge of all aspects of Government. I am here to answer the questions on this department, and on any comments that I have made. Again, you have asked four times for an analysis that has been taken to Treasury Board and the answer is the same.

I hope you continue to be patient, it simply is not going to be tabled here. Mr. Alcock: Then let us not talk about this year's Treasury Board submission, if you want to treat that as a sensitive policy document, because you are working on it. This situation did not arise this year; this situation has been growing throughout this decade. Can you table last year's analysis or the year before? Can you table a single piece of evidence, from whatever source, that supports the case that you make? Mr.

Gllleshammer: Well, the Member's patience is going to have to continue, because I do not think he will ever see Treasury documents, whether they are this year's or last year's or the previous year's, they are not information that is going to be brought forward before the committee. They were for internal analysis. We are still talking about the increase in workload that agencies have experienced, and the dramatic increase in funding that has occurred over the last five years.

Government has made a very strong conscious effort to increase that funding to provide the services that individual children who are at risk and families who are at risk need, and the process of examining what it is Child and Family Services agencies do. I can tell you, I have visited three of them, and all three of them perceive themselves as being very different. I was at the Northwest Child and Family Services Agency one day. Their main goal is protection, and I believe they try very hard and work very hard at protecting children in our society that falls within their geographic area.

I believe they work very hard at protecting these people and are very sensitive to those issues within their mandated area. On a previous visit, I visited the Child and Family Services of western Manitoba. Of course, they service a much broader area. Because of the rural area and the communities which exist in western Manitoba, they have a different view of the work that

1569 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA November 20, 1990 they provide. In fact, I have attended their annual meeting the last three years and have enjoyed meeting the many foster parents who always attend these meetings and speak so highly of the work that is being done by agency workers. They there have different problems. On another occasion, we visited the Northeast Child and Family Services or NEW FACESS, and they have a somewhat different attitude, somewhat different view of things, somewhat different way of providing service, and a different way of identifying what it is they do.

I guess what I am getting at is part of the service and funding agreements and the exercise that we are going through is going to be to identify some of the commonalities that exist with these agencies and the work they do and what other tasks they have taken on and identified for themselves. I think in doing so, we can see what their primary function is, and what are regarded perhaps-and these words may not be words that people in the system use--but maybe what some of their secondary functions are and what additional functions they have after that.

The service agreements and the funding that is going to be provided, as this dialogue goes on between the staff of this branch and the agencies, is going to be very interesting to see what sort of agreements we come up with. I fully expect that it is going to be a tremendous learning experience for the department and for the agencies and, as I indicated earlier, I hope that all of the almost 2,000 people who work in the department are here because they want to see a better province and be able to deliver a better service. *

(1600) Mr. Deputy Chairman: The hour now being four o'clock, would the committee care to take a 15-minute recess or do you want to carry on? What is the wish of the committee? Recess for 15 minutes until 4:15 p.m. The House took recess at 4 p.m. After Recess The House resumed at 4:13 p.m. Mr. Alcock: Just before we took the recess, the Minister was telling us about the agencies he had visited. I believe it was Northwest, Western and Northeast. I want to make a comment and then ask a question on that because he raises a really interesting example when he talks about western Manitoba.

I have believed for some time that the genesis of this attitude on the part of the Government comes from the political debates that were waged in this House at the time of regionalization, and that really what the agencies are suffering from is an attitude that grew up in this Government that predates the Minister and that I know the Minister does not hold. It gets thrown back at the former Government relative to the policy changes that they made at the time they instituted the change that they did.

When you look at western Manitoba, it is an interesting example because Child and Family Services of western Manitoba were not changed. They were not regionalized . The management was not altered. They have the same executive director today that they had then. In fact, the executive director that has been there, I believe, has been there since, possibly the mid-'70s. He was an executive director when I started working in this field in the late '60s. He has been with that agency I believe since the early to mid-'70s. I may be off by a year or so, but three years or so ago they had a surplus.

Today they have a deficit and they are in trouble. I am not suggesting that is a result of the change of Government, but I am suggesting that they are suffering from the same workload pressures that everybody else is. It may be different in shape. The ratio of single moms to neglect, to abuse, to unmanageable teenagers may be different, but they have the same problems driving them. It is a volume problem . When the Minister met with these three agencies, did any of the three agencies say that Government funding had kept pace with the volume? Mr.

Gllleshammer: I would be reluctant to quote them from memory, but I do not recall any of them saying that they were experiencing surpluses. I can tell you that the purpose of the service and funding agreements is to match service provided with funding. I would again point out in this year of transition, this is what we hope to achieve. I think it is: going to take some time.

I believe the Honourable Member, who has some background in the system and certainly a connection with the system yet as he works with agencies from time to time, would recognize that to put these service and funding agreements in place and to have them

November 20, 1990 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1570 working appropriately is going to take some time . That is exactly the negotiations that we are in at this time . The service and funding agreements that we have to date seem to have accomplished that.

I think that is why I say wit~ven though I have only been in the Ministry some five weeks or so-some sense of confidence that where these service and funding agreements exist-and I would cite them for him : one we talked about earlier at Children's Home; I believe one with Winnserv; another with the Eastman Crisis shelte r; and earlier than that one with the Thompson shelter-that these are designed to identify the services and match the funding .

If that is the issue that the Member continues to want to talk about, whether funding has increased to match increases in volume or whether volume has outstripped funding , these service and funding agreements are going to address that.

I am asking that he show some of that patience he was speaking about before to allow us to get these in place and give us some experience with them because our objective, I am sure, is the same at least as far as the agencies are concerned, that they be run successfully, manage the funds that are allotted to them and provide the services that are needed for the people who access the system . So I would ask him to continue to be patient as we put more of these service and funding agreements into place, and I think he will find that they indeed will be successful. Mr. Alcock: Mr.

Deputy Chairperson , I believe the service and funding agreements will be successful. I believe it is a good model, and it is something that has been discussed for a very long time . If the Minister is successful in getting them into place, I think it will be a significant achievement and one that the Minister should be congratulated for.

Before I finish on that, let me just say though that if you start from a base that is too low, from a belief that the current funding level is adequate, then all you are going to do is perpetuate a system that is going to result either in a significant reduction in current services or the failure of some of the agencies. I mean , you are on that road now, but you have a process in place. I am wondering if the Minister can table the format that they are using for these negotiat ions or these agreements , and give us an example of the form that these agreements take. *

(1620) Mr. Gllleshammer: As I have indicated, we have four of these service and funding agreemen ts, management agreements, in place, and there is one, if we get the permission of the other party to the contract, that we would be prepared to table in the near future. We would like to do them the courtesy of requesting that we be able to table this because it is a contract between the department and the service provider, and we would like to get their blessing on it before we table it. Mr. Alcock: That will be fine.

I would ask that you seek that permission as soon as possible so that we could get a look at it, hopefully, before this Estimates process is over with. Let us talk then a little bit about Agency Relations as an organizational unit, as opposed to some of its functions. I frankly was disturbed when I saw the department going in this direction. I felt that it was a gigantic step backwards . I say that not by way or meaning to reflect at all on the people who work in the division; I do not know any of them personally. I suspect that they are competent and do their work diligently.

As an entity of Government, I was opposed to it when I worked for the department. Before I worked for the department, I was opposed to it as an organizational structure that I thought fragm ented decision-making in the department, and I continue to be opposed to it. I see it as something that makes it more difficult for the department to do the work that it has to do, and leads to exactly the kind of problems that we have now.

I would like to ask the Minister, is the rationale for creating this, I mean , is this the entity that arises based on the Deloitte, Haskins and Sells report to the Minister of Finance from December 7, 1988? Mr. Gllleshammer: Yes, it was recommended by the consultant and also the Provincial Auditor, and I read into the record something yesterday from the Provincial Auditor that supported that to a high degree . I would like to take the opportunity now just to read some additional information into the record that I think the Member will appreciate .

This is from the Provincial Auditor: "Since 1983, we have been commenting on the Department of Community Services' need to improve its internal management

1571 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA November 20, 1990 controls . In April 1989, the Department of Community Services was amalgamated with the Department of Employment Services and Economic Security to form the Department of Family Services. This necessitated a revised organization structure to facilitate effective management of a larger and more complex department. The department, under direction of the Minister and Deputy Minister, has taken steps to develop this revised structure.

"Since its fo rmation, the department has undertaken to review and reorganize many of its operating divisions in order to address the need for improved internal management control, accountability of external agencies, and effective program delivery. Of particular note, the department has organized Management Services, the Agency Relations Bureau and Internal Audit under an Associate Deputy Minister. "As well, the department has held strategic planning sessions.

These sessions, which included participation by central Government staff and senior staff of the department focused on the new department's mission, goals, operating principles and strategic priorities for the 1990s. These actions resulted in a significant strengthening of the planning and organizing functions. The department has also taken steps to improve their reporting, controlling and evaluating functions.

We support the approach taken by the department toward improving its operations ." This , by way of information, as well as the information I read into the record yesterday from the Provincial Auditor, supports the direction that we have taken with the Agency Relations Bureau, and in many respects is an attempt to address what is perceived by t he Provincial Auditor as a long-standing problem in this department.

We are pleased that it has been recognized by the Provincial Auditor, and we hope that the Agency Relations Bureau--and we know it will work in concert with the various branches of the department, as we proceed with these agreements. Mr. Alcock: As it happens, I have had an opportunity to discuss that with the Auditor, too. It is true there has been a long-standing concern about the financial management and the programmatic relationships with the department. Of course, those concerns existed when there was an Agency Relations branch in the past also.

I guess the underlying concern is whether or not this is the most effective way to ensure that programmatic goals are supported by the funds that are delivered by the department. The concern is simply that, when you fragment those two things, you create two locations, two areas that agencies or the public or private sector agencies have to report to in order to operate their programs. That creates a very difficult situation, because one never knows who is providing the policy direction.

Ostensibly it is the program manager, but all too often, if one believes in the old Treasury Board motto of "a dollar paid is a policy made," it is in fact the Agency Relations people who, in the absence of policy, make policy when they are ill-equipped to do so. I do not think there is a member of that bran<:h past or present that would say that they are. Who was the principal investigator on this report? Mr. Gllleshammer: I will just answer your other question while they are getting this information .

The branch take13 the lead in the relationship with the various external agencies, and they are the lead area of the department in relating to the external agencies. The Agency Relations Bureau will simply interact with the branch staff. I understand in previous history, that there was a type of agency relations bureau in existence which perhaps exhibited the qualities or characteristic that the Member alludes to. This Agency Relations Bureau is going to work with the branch that works with the external agencies, and we do not foresee a conflict that the external agencies will be faced with.

I do not have a name for you; it was an accounting firm that the Member has recognized. I am not sure who the actual staff was that completed the report. Perhaps we can find that information for you. Mr. Alcock: I can inform the Minister that one of the staff on it was the former Deputy Minister of the department, one of the people who created the original Agency Relations division and who supported it, and who left as part of the reorganization. The concern I have is the recommendations that come out of this are simply an attempt to recreate something that was in existence.

I do not mean to be the least bit critical of the attempt on the part of the department to get a handle on the financial relationship, and as I have said over and over again, the service and funding agreements are an important step forward, if you are able to do it.

November 20, 1990 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1572 The mechanism you are using to do it, I believe in the long run w

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	35-1-28
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	35th 1st hansardpdf 28.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	9fa89c66d3693c572e4adda69efef1e09000fd9d

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