Volume 4 PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND THIRTY-SIXTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND 4th. Session VERBATIM REPORT THURSDAY, APRIL 10, 1975 SPEAKER: THE HONOURABLE M. JAMES RUSSELL Number 29

April 10, 1975 The House met at 3:00 P.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. Tape no. 1232 MR. SPEAKER (Mr. Stagg): Order, please! Page 1 - mw Before commencing today's proceedings, I would like to welcome to the gallery on behalf of all honourable members, fifty Grade X students from Prince of Wales Collegiate in St, John's in the company of their teacher, Mr, Burry. On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you to the galleries here today and trust that your visit will be interesting, informative and educational. NOTICES OF MOTION: MR. SPEAKER (Mr. Stagg): The Hon. Minister of Justice. HON. T. A.

HICKMAN (Minister of Justice): Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a bill, "An Act Respecting Adult Corrections." ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS FOR WHICH NOTICE HAS BEEN GIVEN: MR. SPEAKER (Mr. Stagg}: The Hon. Minister of Transportation and Commtmications. MR. S. A, NEARY: (Inaudible). HON. J. ROUSS.EAU (Minister of Transportation and Communications): Yes, you are going to get an answer now at least.

This is a question proposed by the member for Bell Island a while back on what action have the government, and I presume he means the provincial government, taken to eliminate charges for the passage of vehicles and passengers on the ferry service between Bell Island and Portugal Cove and to treat this service as an extension of the provincial highway system? Now, of course, the honourable member is aware that the ferry is a federal responsibility and not a provincial responsibility. And they have recently called for tenders over an extended period of time. There was included in the tender call proposals for a

schedule of passenger and vehicle rate increases and, of course, this was a point on which 3704

April 10, 1975 - Tape no. 1232 Page 2 - aw the provincial govenunent and, I believe, a federal member fought against and the proposed increases were rescinded, and there are no proposed increases, I understand, in the long-term contract that was signed with the federal government. However, I can say that further to this subject, Mr. Allan Campbell,Chairman of the Water Transport Committee has indicated that he would like to meet with me to discuss the question of the Bell Island-Portugal Cove ferry, and I will be doing so as soon as possible. I do not know when, whether it be a week, two weeks, three weeks.

And until such time as I meet with him, I do not think it would be appropriate to make any further comment. But they certainly would, I preslDlle 1 when they meet with us, withe thought of us assuming the responsibility for the ferry. ORRAL QUESTIONS: MR. SPEAKER (Mr. Stagg) : The Hon. Member for Bell Island. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the Hon.

Minister of Transportation and Coumunications, Sir, Is the minister aware of a promise that was made on Bell Island in 1971 and it was repeated again in 1972, a promise made to the people of Bell Island by the Premier that the Bell Island ferry service would be made a part of the provincial highway system? Is the minister aware of that? MR. ROUSSEAU: You know, I do not know what statements went on. But, .as I say1 after I meet with Mr. Campbell, you know, if there are any questions arising from that, I am prepared to give it!

And until I meet with him, it is now a federal contract that has been called and accepted by contract award to a company over there. And if Mr. Campbell wants to talk to us about it, I am prepared to sit down and talk to Mr. Campbell about it, I cannot assume what is going to come out of those talks. But when these talks are over, if the member would like to pose a question, or write me and ask me what came out of these talks, I would be more than happy to make the information available to him. 3705

April 10 , 1975 Tape no. 1232 Page 3 - mw MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I a111 dissatisfied with the answer to my ques t ion, Sir, and I wish to debate it this afternoon at 5:30 P.M. during the late show. I have a question for my honourable and dear f r iend the Mini s ter of Social Services , the minister who sticks out his chest on television. ~ould the minister care to tell t he House - HO.bl. A. J. MURPHY {Minister of Social Services): Where do you want me to put it? MR. NEARY: I could tell you where to put it if the minister would put it there . MR. MURPHY: {Inaud ible) . J!R.

N'EARY: Would the minister tell the Rouse what action, if any, his department has taken to increase the rental allowances to people who are handicapped, the people who are sick , to widows and to people who are unemployed through no fault of their own because of the increase in r entals in the Province, throughout the Province, esp ecially in St. John's? What action has the ministe r taken to inc r ease the rental allowance to these people who are on social assistance? 370 6

April 10, 1g75 Tape 1233 (afternoon) IB-1 }fR. MURPHY: Mr. Speaker, this is the first intimation I have had that anybody is looking for an increase in rental allowance, the type of people described. I think we have increased the rates nearly 100 per cent of rental allowance since we took over in 1972 as compared to when the previous member was the same minister. But, I will guarantee those if there is any need or anything else for accommodations and there is an increase sought from these people, that we would do all in our power to help them out.

But to this date I have not received one representation from anybody. We will pay up to $180 per month rent for people in these areas. I think that is a considerable increase over what was previously. As I said, Sir, just to reiterate, in my knowledge, I have not had one request that anybody is being put on the street out of an apartment or anything because of the fact that they are indigent, that need help, that our department looks after and they are being put out because they cannot afford to pay the rent, not one, Sir. I say that quite honestly. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary.

In view of the fact that the Newfoundland Tenancies Board have approved rental increases for Omega Apartments and the government have announced increases in Pleasantville and Churchill Square~ Would the minister indicate if his department will increase the rental allowances to people who live in these apartments,who are getting social assistance beyond $180 a month? MR. MURPHY: Mr. Speaker, the policy of this government will be made known at the opportune time.

So, I cannot guarantee that any more than I can guarantee anybody that if bread goes up seven cents a loaf, that we will increase their allowance by seven cents. We have a policy established. I think it is a very, very generous one and until the time comes, Sir, I have no statement to make on it at this time. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the Minister of Labour or Minister of Manpower and Industrial Relations could bring us up to date on the strike in Wahush? Is the minister assisting the parties in the dispute in Wahush to try to get back to the bargaining table? Does the minister 3707

April lU,1975 Tape 1233 IB-2 care to tell us what is happening in that regard? HON. E. MAYNARD (MINISTEF OF MANPOWER AND INnUSTRIAL RELATIONS): Mr. Speaker, we have had a conciliation officer assigned to Wabush back in January some time who is assisting both the parties during their negotiations.

Since the settlement that was reached by the negotiating committee has been rejected and the people have been on strike, we have not had any correspondence from either party for any further assistance, but it has been made known to both parties that the conciliation officer is still available to assist them at any time that they request their services. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Justice.

Would the Minister of Justice care to tell the House whether or not he has today started extradition proceedings to get the honourable the Premier and his brain thrust back from Ottawa before they do any more damage? MR. SPEAKER (STAGG): Order, please! Order, please! That question is completely out of order. It is argumentative. It is not a proper question for the question period. The Member for Labrador North. MR. WOODWARD: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Agriculture and Forestry.

Would the minister tell the House if the programme, the Canada Lands Inventory Programme, is now being reinstated for Labrador and if there will be an inventory taken and an atlas prepared the same as was done for the Island portion of the Province which I think was presented to this !louse last year? Is that an ongoing programme? Will it be done? HON. H. COLLINS (MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE AND FORESTFY) : Mr. Speaker, it might be just as well for the honourable member to wait until my estimates come on. I understand they are coming on pretty soon. I will be glad to go into it with him then. MR. F. ROWE: Mr.

Speaker, I have a question for the honourable Minister of Transportation and Communications. In view of the fact that his answer to a question last week was taken up by a series of points of order, is 3708

April 10, 1975 Tape 1233 (afternoon) I B-3 the minister now prepared to table a list or indicate to the Bouse the list of highway projects for this year that would include upgrading projects, paving projects and new con/;ltruction? UON. J. llOUSSEAU ('MINI STER OF TRA.'ISPORl'A'l"lON AND COMMUN1CATI ONS) : No, r am not. You are assuming there is a list. You know, that is based on an assumption. I do not have it. }flt. l<'. 'ROWE: Well, ~r. Speaker, a supplementary.

Would the minister indica .te to the House what plan,s his department l:ias for so far, if he ha11 not got a completed list, wha,t plans his department has for new constructfon, paving and upgrading this year1 ~. SPEAKER (STAGG): Order, please! That questioµ is required to have a lengthly answer. I -t would be m~re properly framed for the Order Paper and the answer is too lengthy. MR. F. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, I am dissatisfied with the answer and the ruling. Therefore, I wish to debate it during the late show. MR. SPEAKER (STAGG): Order, please! 3709

April 10, 1975 Tape No. 1234 NM - 1 The question was disallowed and consequently the matter cannot be debated. MR. ROBERTS: On a point of order, did Your Honour rule the question would be debated or would not be. MR. SPEAKER (STAGG): Would not be debated. MR. ROBERTS: The Standing Order 31 (

g) a member who is not satisfied with response to an oral question or who has been told by Mr. Speaker that his question is not urgent or not of public importance may give notice that he intennR to raise the subject matter of his question on the adjournment. Your Honour's ruling was specifically that the question was not urgent, that it will be on the Order Paper and therefore 1 I submit, my colleague is quite in order in asking that it be debated on the late show tonight. MR. SPEAKER (STAGG): Order, please!

The point raised by the honourable member certainly deserves some more. research on my part and I will rule on it at a later time in the afternoon. MR. HICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, before Your Honour researches it and makes a decision, I realize any question will be held in abeyance until Your Honour brings down his ruling. Your Honour did not, as I heard Your llonour rule, did not state that the question is not urgent. What Your Honour did rule was that the question was more properly placed on the Order Paper. Your Honour did not give the reason.

In fact,Your Honour I think said - well 3Your Honour did give a reason, Your Uonour said that the question was too lengthy. MR. OTTENHEIMER: Out of order as an oral question. MR. HICI01AN: And I sumbit therefore, Your Honour, that - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible. MR. HICKMAN: Unless my hearing is - MR. SPEAKER (STAGG): Order, please! I r e fer honourable gf'ntlen ;en t o

section 31 (

f) in which the Speaker's rulings relating to oral question s are not debatable or subject to appeal. Now the Speaker's rulin~, and its subsequent

interpretation with reference to the honourable member's dissatisfaction to the answer is certainly something that will have to be 3710

April 10, 19 75 Tape No. 1234 NM - 2 decided upon at a later date, However,honourable members are now entering into a debate on the Speaker's ruling. MR. ROWE: A question for the honourable Minister of Transpor~ation and •Communications; Mr. Speaker, is the minister prepared to submit a partial list to the House of Assembly, of projects for the coming year in Highways? MR. ROUSSEAU: You know that is the same question as before. I am not. MR. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, I am entirely dissatisfied with the answer the minister has given me and I would like the opportunity to debate it during the late show.

Another question for the honourable Minister of Transportation and Communications, Mr. Speaker; has the minister or his department or any officials in his department made any effort at all to convince various construction companies in the Province who are improving or upgrading or paving roads to hire local workers as much as possible and to hire local machinery as much as possible? ""IR.

ROUSSEAU: The honourable member undoubtedly is referring to a gentleman that I think we both know,and in an area 1 yes, and I was contacted by this gentleman the day before yesterday and I passed the information along to the Deputy Minister. The gentleman phoned me last night and I had left with the Deputy Minister because we were in the House and to get back to him - AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR.

ROUSSEAU: No, the day before yesterday when I got the original request, but certainly we would encourage the use of local labour and local vehicles in any given area of the Province that is, you know, would hopefully, our roads programme for the year would hopefully include local labour, local content, certainly where possible, What the exact details are I am not aware of. The Deputy Minister is checking the matter out. I have asked him to get back to the gentleman in question. I had another conversation with him last night and I assured him)of course~ 3711

April 10, 1975 Tape No. 1234 ~ - 3 that we are cer t ainly inte r ested in the -particular area that we were both talking about, that local labour - and local trucks be hired where possible . Of course I think t he honourable member and the honourable House can understand, that 1 you know,the department is nor in a position to order a construction companywhich is awarded a tender to hi re such­ and--such a one but certainly the encoura gement would be there and where possible we would like to see labour in that area hired and any vehicles or equipment that would be necessary hired and that equipment too.

That is not to say any particular area of the Province would ~et special treatment because we would hope that the programme would be extended all over the Province, every body would have their fair share in their local area . I chink that is a policy co which we subscribe,but again I must repeat that we cannot order a company, we can only encoura~e them to do so and that we certainly will do. 3712

April 10, 1975 Tape 1235 (Afternoon) PK - l MR. SPEAKER (STAGG): The Hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, a question to the Minister of Health. Could the minister indicate when construction of the Clarenville Hospital will begin,please? HON. DR. A. ROWE (MINISTER OF HEALTH) : Mr. Speaker, I am not in a position to state when the construction will actually start. I can say that the functional planning has been completed. We are now in the process with the Department of Public Works of appointing a project manager and architects.

And I am told that hopefully once that is done within a period of four to five months we can begin some work. '1R. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, I would give notice under the late show that I am dissatisifed with that particular answer. AN HON. lIBMBER: Inaudible. MR. SPEAKER (STAGG): The Hon. Member for Bell Island. HR. S. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I have two matters to debate at the late show today.If necessary, Sir, I will withdraw the last one in favour of my colleague getting his on because we only have a half an hour. I have two on and my colleague has one on. 10.., HON. MEHBER: HON. HEHBERS: MR. ROUSSEAU: No way.

Inaudible. May I rise to a point of order, please? I think something happened last week at the late show,and I assume that honourable members will let me bring up this point of order, where it is one half hour in the late show, and if you have three whmfs on you have ten, ten, and ten, and if there are points of order and so on and so forth at the end you do not get the courtesy or the opportunity to reply to the third stage of the late show. And, you know, I think that the honourable members, I do not know if everybody agrees 1 that everybody should have the opportunity to have their five minute presentation.

And, I think, the minister responsible should also have the opportunity or the courtesy,whatever you want to call it,to reply for the full five minutes. AN HON. ME~IBER: The late,late show. AN HON. MEMBER: That is - 3713

April 10, 1975 Tape 1235 (Afternoon) PK - 2 MR. SPEAKER (STAGG) : Yes, the honourable minister's point of order is a hypothetical question which is not suppose to be posed during the question period or at any otlwr time. I think, however, that this matter is of some urgency and it might properly be the subject for a further review of the rules sometime in the future because it does make it rather difficult to answer a question if there are several points of order. This was witnessed last week. So it is something that might be considered in the future when the rules are changed 1if they ever are. The Hon.

Member for Labrador North. MR. M. WOODWARD: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Justice. Could the Minister of Justice give me any consideration of the recommendations of the Royal Commission on Labrador to subsidizing a lawyer to practice in Goose Bay-Happy Valley? MR. HICKMA.~: It is a very novel suggestion of the Royal Commission on Labrador, Mr. Speaker. And I think I have a very good knowledge of the lawyers who are available and my chances of - there is no point in wasting my time on something that is not realistic. MR. SPEAKER (STAGG): The Member for Hermitage. MR. R. SIMMONS: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the Minister of Forestry and Agriculture, the same matter I have raised with him on two occasions in the past three or four weeks relating to the sawmilling in the Bay D'Espoir area. I wonder if he would indicate what action has been taken by his department to rectify the situation, specifically the fears that I discussed with him privately, the fears of the small sawmillers with respect getting permits, cutting logs for the sawmills 7 MR. COLLINS: MR. SIMMONS: MR. COLLINS: In the Bay D'Espoir area? In Bay D'Espoir, yes. Yes, Mr.

Speaker, as I mentioned to the honourable member some time ago, although it was news to me at the time he raised it that some people might have been having some difficulties, I arranged then for the Assistant Deputy Minister of Forestry to get in touch with honourable member. And I presume that he did get in touch with him. In the meantime I have also been in touch with some of the people in Bay 3714

Apr il 10 , 1975 Tape 1235 {Afternoon) P.K - 3 D'Espoir myself since - AN HON. MmmER: MR. COLLINS: the Ba_y since. Inaudible. Yes. well I have been in touch with some people in And the latest infonnation I liave is that they want to come in and have a meeting with us then we are looking fo~ard to sitting do~m and meet;ing with them. MR. SIMMONS: A supplementary. Would the minister indicate persons or the organizations he contacted. It is only within the last two hours that I had · representation from one of the organizations who heard nothing from the minister's office si.nce. MR .• C.OLLUIS: Mr.

Speaker, really I cannot rememiler the names. But as I recall it they are members of the Development Corporation down, there. Now whether they are speaking for the Corporation or not I rea11y do not know. But i;;ome people have been in touch with me who are members of that organization, and they are anticipating coming in to meet with us concerning the problem, if there is one. ORDERS OF THE DAY 3715

April 10, 1975. Tape 1236 RH - 1 MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, before Your Honour proceeds to the order s , may I ask leave to move the adjournment of the House under the provisions of Standing Order (23) to discuss a depth of matter of urgent public importance. I have a copy here for Your Honour. Mr.

Speaker, the motion is as follows, that I wish to adjourn the House to discuss the following motion, namely, the failure of the government of this Province to support the efforts being made by other Provinces to prevent an increase in the price of fuel and oil products to the consumers in those Provinces, which failure by the government will result in the people of Newfoundland and Labrador paying substantially higher prices for gasoline and for heating oil in the very near future and which failure is a direct result of the government's refusal to stand up for the true interests of New­ foundland and of Canada as a whole.

Your Honour, that is word for word the motion which I asked leave to move yesterday and which was denied by the Chair on the grounds it was not of urgency. Since then, Sir, we have seen the conference in Ottawa 1which is still in session. We have had no opportunity to discuss the matter in this House. It may be of interest to Your Honour, Sir, and an indication of the urgency as well as the public importance to know that the six cent a gallon increase will cost the people of Newfoundland $30 million a year, a ten cent a gallon increase will cost the people of Newfoundland $50 million a year. The matter is urgent.

It is of public :importance, Sir. It must be debated by this House and accordingly I ask leave to make this motion now that we can debate it. It is more urgent than any other matter which could possibly come before this House at this time. MR. SPEAKER (Stagg): This matter came before the House yesterday and Mr. Speaker at that time disallowed it indicating that while it was a matter of serious concern to all people, it is not a matter that was pressing so far as debate was concerned or sufficiently important to suspend the ordinary course of business for the House. 3716

April 10, 1975. Tape 1236 RH - 2 Accordingly, the motion is denied. MR. ROBERTS : Your Honour, with the greatest respect, may we appeal your ruling please. I am sure two of my colleagues will rise. Could we divide the House please, Sir? MR. SPEAKER (Stagg): Calling the members. The motion is that the Speaker's ruling be upheld.

Those in favour of the motion: The honourable the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing, the honourable the Minister of Health, the honourable the Minister of Social Services, the honourable the Minister of Manpower and Industrial Relations, the honourable the ¥.inister of Provincial Affairs and Environment, the honourable the Minister of Transportation and Communications, the honourable the Minister of Rehabilitation and Recreation, the honourable the Minister of Education, the honourable the Minister of Justice, the honourable the Minister of Industrial Development, the honourable the Minister of Forestry and Agriculture, the honourable the Minister of Toursim, the honourable the Minister of Rural Development, SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Inaudible.

MR. SPEAKER (Stagg): Order, please! There is to be no debate or discussion during a division. I am sure honourable members are aware of this. Mr. Dunphy, Mr. Wells, Mr. Senior, Mr. Marshall, Mr. Evans. MR. SPEAKER (Stagg): Those opposed, please rise. Those against: The honourable the Leader of the Opposition, Mr. Gillett, Mr. Woodward, Mr. Neary, Mr. Rowe, Mr. Simmons. 3717

April 10, 1975 Tape no. 1237 Page 1 - mw MR.. SPEAKER (Mr. Stagg) : The Speaker's ruling _is upheld. MR. ROUSSEAU: Mr. Speaker, could I ask - MR. SPEAKER (Mr. Stagg): Order, please! Also while it is difficult at times to restrain one·'s self, some things that happen in the House are humorous. I remind all people in the press galleries and the public galleries that their participation in the House should be that of observers only and they will have to swallow their !lloke and restrain themselves The Minister of Transportation and Communications. MR.

ROUSSEAU: May I ask what is on the late show today because there was apparently one withdrawn? ORDERS OF THE DAY: MR. SPEAKER (Mr. Stagg): Motion 2 - Committee of Ways and Means. It is moved and seconded that I do now leave the Chair for the House to resolve itself - AN HON. MEMBER: Motion 2? MR. SPEAKER (Mr. Stagg): I am sorry. Motion 2, Bill No. 18. On motion of the Hon. Minister of Forestry and Agriculture, a bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Saw Mills Act," read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. On motion that the House resolve itself into Committee of Supply, Mr. Speaker left the Chair.

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY: MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, when the committee last rose, we were dealing with 709,electoral office. I do not have too many questions on this, Sir, except that I want to take note that at the present time I understand)and perhaps the Minister of Justice can confirm this,that a voters' list is being taken in the Province at the present time. I do not know, Sir, if that is any indication or not whether we are going to have an early election. AN HON. MEMBER: Hopefully. 3718

April 10, 1975 Tape no. 1237 Page MR. EVANS: (Inaudible). MR. NEARY: After the performance, ~ir, of the Hon. Premier and his brain tr~t in Ottawa, it might be a good idea to 2 - mw have an early election because this is the only way,probably, we can resolve this matter. But would the Minister of Justice care to tell the committee whether or not there has been a deadline placed on when the voters' list has to be completed? Yes, I would like to know how the enumerators are being paid? You know,are they getting so much per head? Are they being paid by the hour? Do they earn the minimum wage? MR. EVANS: (Inaudible).

MR. NEARY: Mr. Chainnan! MR. HICKMAN: I cannot hear what the honourable gentleman said. MR. ROBERTS: Nobody can because the honourable gentleman's colleague is passing out goodies. MR. NEARY: If the Belmont Tavern, Sir, had not burned down a week ago, I would swear we were in the Belmont Tavern thjs afternoon. Just restrain yourself, keep quiet, I want the minister to tell us how they are being paid? Are they being paid by the head or by the hour or do they get a straight across-the-board salary? What about Mr.

Harvey Cole, the gentleman who ran unsuccessfully several times for the P, C. party, the chief electoral - MR. ROBER.TS: MR. NEARY: MR. ROBERTS: MR. NEARY: the last time. He could not even get the nomination. He could not even get the nomination. (Inaudible) . That is right, The Burgeo Burp beat him out there MR. EVANS: (Inaudible), MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! I am sure that on the general topic of elections that honourable members could wander far and wide and bring in 3719

April 10, 1975 Tape no. 1237 Page 3 - mw a great many matters. But the subject of the electoral office is one that is rather precise. I am sure that the honourable member realizes that he was engaging in a debate or about to precipitate a debate that could lead us down many irrelevant paths. I suggest that the honourable member might make remarks that are more relevant. MR. NEARY: I want to know, Sir, if Mr. Cole is ~etting an increase in pay this year? Is there any provision? I have not had time to check the detailed salary report there. I think that is about-all, Sir •.

I would like to know if there is any deadline on when the minister expects to have the voters' list complete? Does he expect to see it completed in April, May, June or in the Fall of the year? And if so, would the minister indicate if he has given any instructions for the Chief Electoral Officer to get ready for an early election? Have the ballots been ordered? Has all the election material been placed on order? Is it now in the hands of the printers? Can the minister just give us a run down on precisely what is happening under this heading, electoral office? 3720

April 10, 1975 Tape 1238 (afternoon) IB-1 MR. RICKMAN: Mr. Chairman, firstly, I am not aware of any intention to increase the salary of the chief electoral officer or of his staff. I think he has a staff of one, a very competent lady. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Who is it? MR. RICKMAN: Mrs. Strong,who has been there for a long, long time, There is no way that I can estimate when the - or1 I am sure, the chief electoral officer - when the voters list will be completed and printed.

I understand that the last voters 1 list which was taken in 1971, the minutes of council at least were passed in January of 1971 and the enumeration commenced shortly thereafter. It was late June of 1971 when the bowid copies of the voters list were made available. So that I would anticipate that this present deliberation having started only within the last few weeks or in March, it is likely to be later than June before it is completed , The method of payment is $30.00 plus fourteen cents per person.

That is an increase, a very modest increase, I might add, over that paid the last time when it was $20.00 and twelve cents a head. It is anticipated that there will be 315,000 names. AN HONOURABLE ~MBER: Inaudible. MR. HICKMAN: Approxiroately 1,400, The enumerators are picked by the revising officers. From what I can hear,the flak that I have been getting is that in practically every instance where they were available, the revising officers, revising justices, have used the same people who were used the last time. Anyway, I am not very popular - AN RONOURARLE MEMBER: Without fear or favor - MR.

HICKMAN: Without fear, favor, prejudice or anything else, and twenty-nine of our revising justices, magistrates - AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Anybody fix up the ballots? AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. ltICKMAN: Again, Mr. Chairman - I do not know if I have the list here - they were, as the honourable Leader of the Opposition is aware, the revising justices wider the act have to be appointed by the Lieutenant- 3721

April 10, 1975 Tape 1238 (afternnon) Ill-2 Governor in Council. Most of those who served the last time, if they are still alive, are serving again, AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Mr, Albert Meade is alive, Did he serve the last time? MR. HICKMAN: Mr. Albert Meade did not serve the last time. There was no district,was there? Because the chief returning officer and the revising justice in that district the last time was a gentleman named Carter, John Carter. Mr. John Carter of Harbour Breton is now the revising justice who reports in Hermitage. There were two or three districts - MR. NEARY: Mr.

Meade, it is just~ coincidence that he ran for the Tories at that time? MR. HICKMAN: Whether it is or not, you know, there is not a thing wrong with it. If the honourable gentleman will look through the list that was gaaetted, he will find, as I am sure he has, he will find that most, that all of those pretty much who served as revising justices the last time are acting ~gain this time. There were some extra districts and these had to be filled by men who had not served before. MR. WOODWARD: Who is in Naskaupi? MR. HICKMAN: Naskaupi - M.N.S., Magistrate Cordon W. Seabright. MR.

NEARY: Harbour Main-Bell Island - how is that one seated? 3722

April 10, 1975, MR. HICKMAN: Tape 1239 RH - 1 Harbour Main-Bell Island is the town clerk whose name I cannot remember. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Mrs. Devereaux. MR. BICKMAN: Mrs. Devereaux, the town clerk in Holyrood. The magistrate for that district is the revising justice in Conception Bay South. I do not know the lady at all, but my understanding is that she is an exceptionally competent lady. MR. NEARY: Why not the Town Clerk on Bell Island? Is there any reason why - MR. HICKMAN: Well, I would think that for a very good reason that there are more people living in that

section of the district than are up above .and we will see now when the enumerations take it, but they look like to me1 and I must confess the names of the new magistrates, I do not know them. They were chosen, the names were submitted to me by the chief electoral officer,who is doing a first class job, by the way, and they were passed by Cabinet and now everybody is out busily working. I had someone come to my door with a button recently,which is a new innovation but a very desirable one for the purpose of identification. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: One like that. MR.

HICKMAN: No, a button identifying themselves as - herself as an enumerator. When it will be finished, I do not know, but hopefully it will be finished - AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. HICKMAN: MR. MURPHY: MR. HICKMAN: the outports. MR. WOODWARD : Oh! It will be finished this year. Inaudible. Not any more. No, we ended the discrimination against Mr.

Chairman, in light of the fact that now there is the new list of voters being taken and during the time of the Redistribution Bill that was debated in the House, passed in the House, the Premier at that time was undertaking to say that if we discovered that the census 3723

April 10, 1975. Tape 1239 RH - 2 in Labrador,as we know for a fact it has been understated by Statistics Canada in the census of 1971_,that he would apain look at the possibility of revising the Electoral Act and give Labrador another portion of a seat or an additional seat maybe on the grounds of the electors list. Maybe the minister can tell us if we can determine by the list of electors, if the citizens were indeed understated by Statistics Canada and if his government is prepared to take another look at the Redistribution Bill and to give Labrador another portion of a seat . or an extra seat? MR.

MURPHY: To set my mind clear: is it the census taken of population or voters the last list we had, the number of voters or the total number of people in the districts? When I hear census mentioned, I am just wondering what - _AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Enumeration of voters. MR. MURPHY: We are talking about enumeration of voters. MR, HICRMAN: Mr. Chairman, the census is where you count noses, where you take the names of everyone residing in the Province. The voter~ list is where you take the names of everyone over eighteen years of age. I would - AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible.

MR.HICKMAN: No, I am answering - AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. HICKMAN: The honourable gentleman from Labrador North has asked whether, in my opinion, a census, not a census, the taking of the voter's list will enable the government to ascertain whether or not there was a di screpancy in the census as was alleged. I cannot answer that but I suspect it would because you would not be able to come out precisely but I guess you could extend on - there must be some way that a com­ puter could say,well if you have got - AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Project. MR. HICKMAN: Project.

If you have got 5,000 people eighteen years of age and over, there must be some formula to say that that means there are another 3,000 people in that district. So, I have no doubt at 3724

April 10, 1975. Ta-pe 1239 RH - 3 all that the Minister of Industrial Development with his computerized mind will be able to tell '!lS that once lie get the voters list completed, and that will be the time when 1 think the questi .on can be ve-ry properly ·then put to gove~etJt 11!1 to what .government policy is going to 1,e. one more thing I would like to mention, Mr. <;haim,an, is a matter of in.terest and to show how efficient ~- Cole and Mrs. Strong are)tbat thts work of enumeration that is going on now is beittg done without any additional staff at headqiuu:ters

whereas the last time it was done, in 1971, it was req'!lired ~o hire between six ;1ud seven additional people to work during that period. 3725

April 10, 1975 Tape No, 1240 NM - 1 MR. HICKMAN: The reason for it is that the Chief Electdral Office knew that there would have to be an enumeration taken sometime this year or last year and he and Mrs. Strong were very busy last year getting the various forms printed and in order and it saved us a great deal of money. MR. ROWE: 709-01 Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask the minister is he has as~ed the Chief Electoral Officer to do whatever he can to ensure that polling stations are held in public buildings, such as schools or community halls instead ot in private homes? MR .

MURPHY: Do you want to deprive the people of making maybe t i1irt y-five dcl Lrs'? MR. ROWE: Now, Mr. Chairman, that is the lowest kind of a connnent that you could expect from the honoutable Minister of Social Services. Before I even gave the rationale or the reason he stooped so low as to suggest that I am going to try to take twenty-five dollars frorr. a person, how low can you get, Mr. Chairman: MR. MURPHY: That is what you are doing, MR. CHAIRMAN (DUNPllY): Order, please! MR.

ROWE: Now if he would close his mouth and open his ears he might understand the question, When any p~rson asks a question he obviously has a reason for asking it.

Here ar~ the reasons, Sir, In the last few years 1 have had the honour of participating in orte election as a candidate, artd Ih!.ve been involved deepiy ~th the running of thre• other elections, two federal and one by-election, and one of the complaints that I got from a great many of the electors, the electorate in the districts, whether they be federal or provincia1, is they did not like the idea, now I do not know whether this is a unique Newfou~dland feeling or what, but they simply did not like the idea of going into another person's private home in order to cast·. their votes.

Now I can give you one exampie, there are many reasons for that, but in one community in my own district, a polling station yas held 1rt a certain home and not unlike many Newfoundland c0111111Unities there was a dispute between one side of the comnlunity and the other side of the 3726

April 10, 197S Tape No. 1240 NM - 2 community, or between that family and a group of other people within that community and thirty people out of a total voters' list in that community of 1S0, I think it was, thirty people absolutely refused to go in over the doorsteps of that house to cast their vote. Now the honourable minister knows the type of thing I am talking about. The honourable minister has represented a rural, not quite as rural as the district that I have the honour to represent, but in many districts in Newfoundland people have voiced their opposition over going into private homes to cast their vote.

And in most communities there is a community hall or a schoolhouse or something of that nature where a ballot box can be held in a public place and you will still have your, not polling captains, what do they call~hold the polls? MR. DOODY: District returning officer. MR. ROWE: The district returning officer and the deputy you know, all this sort of thing, the - AN HON. MEMBER: The arrows. MR. ROWE: The arrows, these people still have to be hired by the government, the Department of Justice or the Electoral Officer and with reference to the low comments of the Minister of Social Services, I would suggest - HR.

MURPHY: Inaudible. }flt. ROWE: I would suggest, Mr. Speaker, that if there is twenty-five dollars to be spent for the rental of a home that that twenty-five dollars could probably just as well go to a service club or to a school or to a church and spread it out a little more widely, twenty-five dollars is not all that much. But you know in one community there is more than one person who is in need, and there is only one person who is going to get that twenty-five dollars. MR. MURPHY: You are helping that one. MR.

ROWE: You are helping that one but the money could prmbably be more helpfully spent if it went to a service club or something of that nature because they are using more than one person · in want. But I hope I have made the point of my questio~, Mr. Chairman, and I have sent 3727

April 10, 1975 TaJle No. 1240 NM - 3 a letter to the Chief Electoral dfficet quite some ~ime ago in connection with this and he has asked me to provide him with a list of comlnunity halls and what have you irt my own particular district and I must confess I Have hot d~ne th~t for the Officer. 3728

April 10, 1975 Tape 1241 (Afternoon) PK - 1 I was wondering if the minister would try to make it a point to see that public places are used for the holding of po1ling booths in the up coming or next election in this Province? You cannot do not much about the federal situation. MR.

MURPHY: If I may , Sir, in speaking to that I certainly hope, Sir, that people who have been for years and years and years, and I know I speak for my district and many others throughout the Province, who have been given the chance to get a few extra dollars by having a polling booth in their home and perhaps being the D.R.O. in that particular one, For heaven sake do not take the bit out of their mouths because someone, in his first election possibly 1 is not familiar with the old ancient custom here where people look forward to earning - and he talks about one or two or three - it might be a widow in most cases - I can name five in my district - it is the only bit of cash they get in their hand, Sir.

And I would say thislthat if you can do that, spread these polling booth all over the area instead of everybddy having to congregate. Perhaps it might be a bit different in the member's district. Around a public building where there is no parking nor anything else you try to split as best you can, Sir, and spread the dollar as evenly as you can between the people can certainly do with it. That is my feeling on it. HR. F. ROWE: Mr. Chairman, you know, I got to reply to him. MR. }ll/RPHY: Well,go ahead and reply. MR. F. ROWE: I hate to reply to him. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. F.

ROWE: But I should not have to do it. AN HON. MEMBER : Inaudible. MR. F. ROWE: Number one, learn the rules. NUlilber one, let it go on the record, Mr. Chairman, that I nor my colleagues are advocating that we take $25.00 out of the pockets of a poor person. If the minister was ever west of Hanuel's Bridge and gone into some of the communities such as I represent, Sir, he would understand exactly what I am talking about. HR. MURPHY: Inaudible. 3729

April 10, 1975 Tape 1241 (Afternoon) PK - 2 Mi.. F. ROWE: And it was the minister just to whom the question was directed. And I do not know who he has got on his list down there, Sir, in St. John's Centre - MR. MURPHY: Does he want me to read them out? MR. F. ROWE: But if it is upsetting the Member for St. John's Centre that is too bad. MR. NEARY: Could the minister take him out MR. F. ROWE: You know, let us hear something from the minister instead of this garbage coming from the minister opposite. MR. CHAIRMAN (DUNPHY): The Hon. Minister of Provincial Affairs and the Environment. HON. G. W.

DAWE (MINISTER OF PROVINCIAL AFFAIRS AND THE ENVIRONMENT): lly goodness gracious. My colleague the Minister of Social Services on his stand in this matter because, although there might be differences of opinion or animosities or whatever in communities around the Province of Newfoundland, the house in which the polling station is established surely is not the offender. And generally you will find that it is only the house 1 or a room in the house,that is rented for polling day. AN HON. MEMBER: It will not make any difference to me. MR. DAWE: And generally the person whoowns - AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR.

CHAIRMAN (DUNPHY): Order, please! MR. DAWE: - the house is not around the polling booth on that day. And I think it is ridiculous for the honourable member to come up and suggest that certain people should be deprived of a few dollars on polling day. And I know in many instances - AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. DAWE: - deputy returning officers p,enerally look for houses that belong to widows, in order to probably give them a little benefit out of it, $25.00 for the day or whatever. My fatner was a deputy returning officer for many years in Conception Bay South.

He always sought out houses that belonged to people who were in need, and provided them with the opportunity to earn a few dollars on polling day. I think it is utterly ridiculous the arguments that the honourable member is 3730

April 10, 1975 Tape 1241 (Afternoou) PK - 3 making, Sir. It is even stupid. /u'l HON . MEl•ffiER: It does not make any difference where they are 1you are going to get it any way. MR. !)AWE: Do not worry about that my son. AN HON. HDIBEll: Inaudible. MR. DAWE: I just hope you will be the one to come and run against me. Aft HO!i. MEMBER: Inaudible. HR. DAWE: But, Mr. Chairman, thi s is crazy.

I think that were a person can be help ed if it is only a matter of $25 . 00 or whatever it is, if it is a matter of $10.00 or whatever they should be helped, they should be given tha t opportuni.ty to at least make that much money to help them alone in their - trying to live from day to day,because God only knows it is hard enough today with the ever rising cost of living. AN HON. HE!-IBER: Inaudible. Nit. Cl!AIRMA.'- (DUNPHY): The Hon. Minister of Justice. !IR. ilICK?IAN: Well , all I can do , ~r. Chairman , is thank the honourable p,entlem,m for their words of wisdom.

I am sure there are n.ot sufficient community halls throughout Newfoundland to accommodate all the pollin g booths. Ther e may be some communities,for instance on the Great Northern Peninsul..t 1where you have but one polli.ng booth. liy widerstanding is that it is the prerogative of the district returning office r who in most, well in twenty-nine districts at least will be magistrates to go out and find places where a pollinp. booth can be set up. And 3731

April 10, 1975 Tape no. 1242 Page 1 - mw I have not up to this point suggested to the Chief Electoral Officer that he should instruct the district returning officers to discontinue that practice of renting space in private homes where the district returning officer thinks it appropriate. AN HON. MEMl!ER: By the returning officer? MR. HICKMAN: By the D.R.O. May I say, too, Mr. Speaker, you know, so that there will be no misunderstanding, I do not give instructions to the Chief Electoral Officer.

My responsibility under the act is that I am the minister that has to report to government on behalf of the Chief Electoral Officer,or to this House,and that is all. He does not consult me,nor will he nor should he,as to who is going to be the D.R.O. He will submit a list,as he did with the revising justices, which under the act must be approved by the Lieutenant-Governor in Council. But I certainly have not indicated to the Chief Electoral Officer that there should be a hard and fast policy that coumunity halls be used. I note from the comments· of the Hon. Member for St.

Barbe North that the Chief Electoral Officer has indicated to him that he will be very glad to ask the D.R.O. in that area to consider the community halls when he receives the list of things,which shows that the Chief Electoral Officer is a very co-operative, sensible gentleman. MR. F. ROWE: Just very briefly, I do not want to prolong this, but I asked this question, you know, out of a number of representations that have been made to me over the years from people who sincerely want to go into public places.

Now probably these people represent a very small minority and probably the majority of the electorate could not give a darn where they vote. But I never have had people coming to me objecting to voting in public halls. If so, I would have made representation accordingly. But I have had hundreds of people, while I was campaign manager and this sort of a thing, come to 3732

April 10, 1975 Tape no. 1242 Page 2 - lllW me and suggest • that they would have preferred to have voted in a public place. MR. NEARY: Petty jealousy is !l local policy. MR. F. ROWE: You know, and I think it is incumbent upon me in my role as an M.H.A. to bring this to the attention of the minister, and I am completely aware of the fact that he does not direct the Chief Electoral Officer, he can certainly bring this kind of a feeling to the attention of the Chief Electoral Officer, as I have done, and I would assume that the Minister of Justice would carry a little more weight than the average backbencher.

And it is a reasonable and legitimate question to ask, and I submit that he take into consideration these factors that I have brought to the attention of the minister. And I must again, since the second honourable member opposite has seen fit to stand up, re-state that there is no intention,in anything that I have said to deprive any poor widow or widower or recipient of social assistance money or anybody else 1 to deprive him of $25. I mean that is not even worth arguing.

You know, you take any coDDDunity where you would have-one polling station with 200 or 300 voters, and you would have thirty or forty people in need. There is only one person who is going to get that $25. So, you know, you are helping one out of thirty or forty. Helping one is better than helping none. But having this money going to a school or the Kiwanis Club or a community hall or any recreational hall or anything like this is just as vaiuable a way for the money to be spent. So I reject the two honourable ministers' arguments and their cheap attempt to play politics with a fairly legitimate question.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: (Inaudible). MR. HICKMAN: The only thing I can say - MR_.a.• _CHA __ .a.I_RMAN ____ :_""(M_r_. _D_un__.p_h_y~)_: Order, please! 373:3

April 1975 Tape no. 1242 i1age 3 - mw MR. BiCICMAN: The only thing I can suggest, Sir, 1s that there may be a variation of attitudes in various parts of the Province and if any honourable gentleman in this Bouse feels that he has a representation to mak,e, I am sure that the Chief Electoral Officer would be 111ore than delighted to hear it. I ran into the occasional complaint id the 1971 election but it was in a different category, There were at least three polling booths in 111y district where they insisted on having inside the curtain a very expensive picture of the leader of the party for which I was not running, MR, NEARY: (Inaudible) • 373 4

April 10, 1975 MR. HICKMAN: Tape Nb. 1243 NM - 1 and I sort of thought,and there was one place where there was a picture of my opponent on the door walking in, I kind of thought that was a breach of The Election Act, but fortunately it did not do me any harm. On motion 709-01, carried. On motion 709-02-01 to 712-03-03, carried. MR. NEARY: 712-03-03 Mr. Chairman, this vote, Sir, will not carry for another two or three minutes at least. MR. ROBERTS: Inaudible. MR. NEARY: Legal Aid we are on now. MR. ROBERTS: Oh yes, and I have a few words. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Chairman, I am not about to have my annual flick at the lawye;s. I think, Sir, that I have MR. ROBERTS: Been flicked up. MR. NEARY: When this matter of Legal Aid first came up, Sir, about three years ago in this honourable House, members of the House may remember that I forecast at that time, and Legal Aid I think at that time was $10,000,then it went up to $20,000; no 1it was $20,000 I think was the total amount of Legal Aid, prior to that, Mr.

Chairman, the lawyers always boasted about the fact that they would not deny any citizen of this Province legal counselling if they did not have the money, if they could not afford a lawyer. The lawyers boasted about the fact that they used to do it voluntarily and to listen to the honourable Member for Placentia East in this ho~ourable House, Sir, three years ago when the honourable member came in here,a rookie, a greenhorn, I almost broke down and wept 1 I almost cried when I heard the minister telling us about all the wonderful work that the lawyers of this Province were doing free of charge. MR.

MURPHY: Everybody wants to hire him now. MR. NEARY: I do not mind giving the honourable member a plug. He probably needs it. And so, Sir, we introduced it. It ·was the Liberal Administration that introduced the new concept of Legal Aid and I think the first year it was, I am not sure if it was $10,000 or 3735

April 10, 1975 Tape No. 1243 ~ - 2 $20,000, it was not more than $20,000, $10,000. What we did we provided the bar association, the lawyers' union, we provided them with $10,000 to open an office downtown, to have a telephone and maintain a secretary. That was all they wanted, they told us.

They came in, met with the former Liberal Administration and they told us they were such a kind-hearted crowd of people that all I they wanted was a telephone and a secretary where those who could not afford a lawyer could call in and there would be so many lawyers on duty, the Bar Society, the lawyers' union would have so many lawyers on duty every week. It was only a matter of calling in and a lawyer would be assigned to this person or that person that could not afford to hire a lawyer on his own for some reason or other. So we granted $10,000. Then the next year it went up substantially.

Then the Government of Canada came into the picture and I forecast at that time, Sir, within a very short order,and my honourable friend staring at me across the House there from St. John's South can go and check Hansard, I forecast that within a short time Legal Aid the amount of money provided for Legal Aid would be up to $300,000, I think is said a quarter of a million and I mentioned the figure of $300,000. Well now, Sir, we are asked to vote the lawyers for Legal Aid $380,000 and I will nake another forecast, Sir, another forecast, that within another year or two it wil1 he up to a half million dollars.

It is the biggest milch cow - AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible, MR. NEARY: Outside, Mr. Chairman, of second mortgage money, loan companies, outside 3736

April 10, 1975 Tape 1244 (afternoon) IB-1 of the rip-offs they make for being loan sharks~ this is the biggest Dlilch cow they have found, I suppose, in the whole history of the lawyer's union in this Province. It is net disgraceful. It is true. Now, Mr. Chainnan, I put a question on the Order Paper to the Minister of Justice a couple of weeks ago. I have now, I suppose, thirty-five or forty questions on the Order Paper. I have probably gotten the answers to three or four.

I asked the Minister of Justice to table in this honourable House a list of all the amounts that have been paid out to individual lawyers and to law firms on behalf of Le~al Aid. The Dlinister has not answered my question yet. The question has been put on the Order fa.per. "Fred", will you find the question? AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. NEARY: Yes. Well, in case the minister miseed the question, has not seen the question, before we pass this vote, I 8D1 going to ask the minister to table for the perusal of the eommittee so that the - AN HONOURABLE ~MBER: Inaudible • MR. NEARY: Ah, the minister can get it.

It is taxpayers' money and we are lashing it out to the lawyers. The minister - all he has to do is pick up his phone or ask his colleague, the M.ember for Placentia East to provide an accounting. Does the minister ask for an accounting of this money? MR. HICKMAN: Inaudible. _]'IR. NEARY : Oh, I see. We are not allowed to have that. Well, Mr. Chairman, I think the Connnittee should have it because only recently, Sir, we saw one if not two lawyers suspended from legal aid for thirty days - one for sure. I am not sure about the second one~ suspended from legal aid for thirty days for soliciting.

AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Name them. MR. NEARY: Name them. Michael Laurie was one, suspended without a hearing, suspended in the 11l<'St dictatorial manner by a crowd of individuals that are following archaic rules and regulations, suspended for thirty days. Here is the question: MR. NEARY (Bell Island)- To ask the 3737

April 10, 1975 Tape 1244 (afternoon) IB-2 Honourable the Minister of Justice (this incidentally was back on April 2, 1975, nine days ago) what payments have been made under the Legal Aid Program to solicitors or law firms in Newfoundland during the calendar year 1974, showing in each case the total amount paid to the sol:l.citor or firm concerned and the services in respect of which the payments were made, indicating whether the payments were made in connection with services rendered in criminal or civil matters. The minister has not to this date answered my question.

So, I am going to ask him now when we are in Committee, before we pass this $380,000, slowly crawling up towards $500,000, that the minister give us some accounting, 'We are not trying to pry in to the personal affairs of the lawyers, but we are entitled, Sir, the taxpayers, the people who pay this $380,000 which will soon be $500,000, are entitled to some accounting because, Sir, I was most concerned when I heard that one honourable and learned gentleman had been suspended by a group of people - I do not know who - who meet in secrecy in a dark, probably smoke-filled room Downtown and just flung this gentleman out without , any regard for his character or his reputation or his family, just flung him out, AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible.

MR, NEARY: Is that so? AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Yes, that is so, MR. NEARY: The man had no recourse to appeal. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Wrong. MR. NEARY: That is not wrong, Sir. I have copies of the letters that were sent to the gentleman. MR. REID: Oh, you are all wet now. MR. NEARY: I am not all wet. The honourable member can get as hopping mad as he likes. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: It is wrong. MR. NEARY: It is not wrong, Sir. Suspended, Mr . Chairman, suspende~ - did you ever hear such foo1ish nonsense, suspended for soliciting. I am willing to deal with that, Sir, soliciting. So what if he was soliciting?

What is wrong with it? What is wrong with advertising your wares? What is wrong with advertising your rates? I will tell the 3738

April 10, 1975 Tape 1244 (afternoon) Committee why that learned gentleman was suspended for soliciting, Because this is a safeguard they have, Sir, that none of the lawyers will cut the rates that are laid down in that little blue book that they have locked up in their top drawers. 3739

April 10, 1975. Tape 1245 RH - I That is why, Sir , they are so sensitive about soliciting. They are afraid the poor, old consumer, the poor, old client might get a break. MR. CHAIRMAN (Dunphy): Order, order, please! Order, please! The honourable gentleman's remarks for Pell Island, the Chair fails to see how these comments relate to Legal Aid and feels that the gentleman is out of order in pursuing that course. MR. NEARY: Okay, Mr. Chainnan, I am dealing with a suspension, Sir, a thirty day suspension for a member of the bar society for soliciting.

He was suspended from Legal Aid, from receiving Legal Aid for thirty days. He was not allowed to receive any pay,nents from the Legal Aid Society, from Legal Aid from this $340,000 paid out last year,for soliciting. I am arguing, Sir, I am arguing that that was no justification,in my opinion, for suspending not only that gentleman, but anybody, any lawyer for soliciting. What is wrong with soliciting?

What is wrong with it, Sir, is this: The honourable and learned members of the bar society are scared, Sir, that gentlemen like this particular gentleman who was suspended from Legal Aid for thirty days might give his clients a break - and I am not saying that he did. I do not think he did for one moment - but this is why, Sir, they are in deadly fear of people soliciting, Yet, Mr. Chairman, we see lawyers putting their cards in the newspapers. Is that not advertising, soliciting? Discrimination, Sir, of the worst sort and I want an explanation from the minister.

And I happened to be over at the Arts and Culture Centre when the Editor of Debates of this honourable House retired,and was listening to this conversation and the Member for St. John's East accused me outside of this honourable House and told this gentleman, by the way, who was suspended, not the Minister of Justice but the Member for Placentia East, told this gentleman that I was one of the complainants. I want to say here and now in this honourable House, Sir, that I was not one of the complaints. I was not one of the complainants. The gentleman was accused of soliciting on Bell Island. The 3740

April 10, 1975. Tape 1245 RH - 2 minister was standing there,and the minister is thinking now. He had better think because I was not one of the complainants although - AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. NEARY: Well, the member, the minister's colleague from Placentia East when confronted by this gentleman said, oh, the Member for Bell Island was one of the ones that complained. And that learned gentleman came to see me and wanted to know what form my complaint took, was it a formal complaint? Was it in writing? Was it o~ally?

I want to tell the House now and the minister and the Member for Placentia East, it ia too bad that he is not in his seat, that I did not complain about the gentleman that was suspended for thirty days from Legal Aid and I was shocked and amazed. What are we living in,Nazi Germany, when a learned gentleman is suspended for soliciting! Even if he was soliciting - I do not think he was, Sir - I say so what? What kind of rules and regulations do they have in that· >society? It is about time, it is about time, Sir, we had them investigated.

This is not Nazi Germany we are living in now,and then we heard of a second gentleman that was suspended only last week. MR. HICKMAN: On a point of order, Mr. Chaiman. We are debating Legal Aid. The honourable Member for Bell Island has dragged before this House the name of a practiced solicitor which, in my opinion, willdo irreparable damage to that solicitor. But in any event, the solicitor whom he named a few minutes ago was, if 'suspended' is the word, at least was removed from the list of those eligible to serve on_ Legal Aid cases for thirty days . He was the only one, the only one in Newfoundland.

Now, if the honourable gentleman is leading into another soliciting I say that that is not at all relevant to Legal Aid and is way beyond the scope of this committee, apart from the fact that it is a pretty undesirable thing to be discussing in this House. Any person who is not in public life, who is not in public service, who is not beholden 3741.

April 10, l975 . Tape 1245 RH - 3 to the government, who ii!! not beholden to this House, who does not seek any protection from this House, but whose name is bandied about in here Within the immunity that are conferred upor hondurable gentlemen. I say that it would be most unfair, most undesirable and certainly most irrelevant to 712-03-03. mt. NEARY: To that point of order, 3742

April 10, 1975 Tape No.1246 NM - 1 MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, I would submit to Your Honour that I am completely in order, that the gentleman who I named, Sir, his name had already appeared in the newspaper, that I am merely trying to protect that gentleman, protect his rights as a citizen of this Province. MR. HICKMAN: The one you are leading up to now. MR. NEARY: The one I am leading up to now, Sir, the minister did not give me a chance to finish my remarks, The minister felt obligated to leap into this debate to try to head it off. Well the minister should ~ive me a chance to finish.

And Your Honour should give me a chance to finish my remarks to see what I am going to say before ruling me out of order, because so far, Sir, I am completely in order and I would submit that the .minister's point of order, Sir, is just a stalling tactic. MR. CHAIRMAN (DUNPHY): Order, please: The honourable minister's point was well taken.

The item debate discussion 712-03-02 under the heading, Cost of various items such as royal commissions, Legal Aid Programme and public enquiries, and the Chair fails to see how the suspension of any member of the Bar Society can be relevant in this particular debate and the Chair would ask the honourable gentleman that he will refrain and follow the lines as laid down in committee, particularly 03-03 Legal Aid. MR. NEARY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Now, ~ir, I will get back to my remarks about Legal Aid and who should receive it and who should not receive it, My argU111ent is this, Mr.

Chairman, that no learned member of the Bar Society should be suspended from ~eceiving any of this $380,000, no member, unless the minister who reports to the House on Legal Aid has his say. Before any member of the Bar, Sir, is denied Legal Aid, suspended from receiving any of this $140,000 last year and $380,000 this year, is the minister consulted? The minister is not consulted. Why not? On every other vote in the estimates, Sir, the minister has the final say, the minister has the final word and why not in this instance? Why delegate? Why give up his authority?

Why abdicate his responsibility and give it to a group of dictators downtown? Why should the minister do this? 3743

April 10, 1975 Tape No. 1246 NM - 2 I think, Sir, the House should have a full explanation of this matter and on the second suspension, Sir - MR. WELLS: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman, the second suspension, as the minister has pointed out, was suspension of a lawyer from the privilege of practising before the courts in this Province, It had nothing to do with Legal Aid. It had nothing to do with the expenditure of public monies and it is completely out of order to even refer to it in this House. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please!

I concur with the honourable member's point of order, that it is completely irrelevant to this point that the honourable member is bringing up and further debate on it will be prohibited. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, I want to know from the Minister of Justice if the second person, Sir, suspended received any notice from Legal Aid. AN HON. MEMBER: Point of order - MR. NEARY: Wait now, just a minute now. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! MR. NEARY: I am perfectly in order, Sir. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please!

The facts of this matter are not subject to debate before this House under the heading of Legal Aid, and the honourable member is not going to be permitted to debate it through the back door. MR. NEARY: I will do it to the front door. MR. CHAIRMAN : Because the honourable member - MR. NEARY: Inaudible. MR. CHAIBMAN: Order, please: Now the honourable member is speaking about something that is very akin to libels on a person who is not here, and this matter is a very delicate matter and - MR. NEARY: We119 1et us get a layman in the Chair, so we can talk about it. Let us get the lawyers out of the Chair. MR.

CHAIRMAN: There happens to be a lawyer occupying the Chair at the present time and he has all the powers and rights that are incumbent with holding 3744

April 10, 1975 Tape No. 1246 NM - 3 the Chair and one of them is that he is not going to be shooed out of the Chair by any honourable member in the House, Now I have ruled that the honourable member's• 3745

April 10, 1975 Tape no. 1247 Page 1 - 111W argument pertaining to the so-called second suspension is irrelevant. Andi under the Standing Orders of the House a member who persists in irrelevance may be directed to take his place. I suggest the hnnourable member may have pertinent points that deal with Legal Aid but this is not one of them. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, let me get back to my conversation over at the Arts and Culture Centre. Without referring to - and this may or may not refer to the iearned gentleman who is suspended, the second suspension but, Sir, during that conversation)when the member for St.

John's East, the member for Placentia East, the Minister of Justice and one or two other lawyers who were there, Sir, during that conversation, I was told that there were going to be two suspensions from Legal Aid. I was told, Sir! Subsequently, one gentleman was suspended, and I have been since told that another gentleman - I do not know who it was, Sir, - that another gentleman received a warning that if he did not stop soliciting that he would also be suspended. And I think the minister should tell this House, tell this committee,whether or not that is correct? That is all I am asking, Mr. Chairman.

As a matter of fact, if anything I would be defending these gentleman, not bandying their names about like the minister is pretending. I am trying to see that justice is done, that they get their rights as citizens of this Province. That is all I am doing, Sir. I would like to ask the minister before any member of the Bar Society, before this faceless crowd, I do not even know who they are, before they can suspend anybody from Legal Aid, is there any prior consultation with the minister? Does the minister have any say in it? AN HON. MEMBER: Why? MR. NEARY: Why?

Because this House here is voting $380,000 out, and we want to know how it is spent,if it is being spent wisely if it is being abused. We want to know. We want an accounting. That 3746

April 10, 1975 Tape no. 1247 Page 2 - mw is all we are asking for. We are asking for an accounting. Every other subhead here, Sir, the minister has to give an accounting to this honourable House. And we are certainly entitled to an accounting. for this $380,000. I would like to have an answer to my question that was put on the Order Paper. Legal Aid is getting big in this Province, Mr. Chairman, it is getting big.

It is one of the biggest milch cows, I suppose, the lawyers have found for a long time, and I know the minister can get up and argue that we now have 160 lawyers in Newfoundland, and we have so many in Law School,and it is increasing and their share of the pie is not as big as it used to be. They have to compete now more. They have to get out. You cannot earn your living under Legal Aid. You got to get out and get into second mortgagebusiness and this sort of thing. So all I am asking the minister to do, Mr.

Chairman, all I am asking the minister to do is to tell this committee how that $340,000 last year was spent? I am asking the minister, and I think we have every right to know, Sir, if there is any favouritism, if there is any patronage within the legal profession? MR. HICKMAN: Are you talking about political patronage? MR. NEARY: No, not political patronage. Patronage, you know, a select few, one getting it all, you know. MR. HICKMAN: (Inaudible). MR. NEARY: No. Well, Sir, the only way we can determine that and the minister can screw up his face and look Heavenward all he likes.

The only way we can determine that as a committee and is to have the list in front of us. The minister should give us an accounting. Why Kot? Who do they think th~v are? Who do they think they are to waltz off with $380,000 of the taxpayers' money and not account to anybody? Who do they account to? Does the Auditor Gemeral 3747

April 10, 1975 Tape no. 1247 Page 3 - raw go down and check their accounts? AN HON. MEMBER: Yes. MR • NEARY: Well, okay, then we should have a · report in this honourable House, 3748

April 10. 1975 AN HON. MEMBER: MR. NEARY: MR. HICKMAN: MR. NEARY: Tape 1248 (Afternoon) PK - 1 Inaudible. Well then, Sir. then there should be no objection. Mr. Lang under his Act does not ask for Oh we dare not encroach on - this is santimonious territory. We dare not encroach - MR. HICKMAN: • •• the names of lawyers •••.• MR. NEARY: We dare not ask how the $380,000 that is provided to the lawyers of this Province by the taxpayers of Canada and Newfoundland, we may not ask the minister how that money was spent. Who received it? MR. HICKMAN: Who received it is something else. MR.

NEARY: Who received it is something else. Does the minister have anything to hide? MR. HICKMAN: No. MR. NEARY: Well then table it. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. NEARY: look at it. MR. HICKMAN: MR. NEARY: Put it on the table of the House. Let us all have a Inaudible. Mr. Chairman, I would say that in a very short time, Sir, we will be up to a half million dollars, a half million dollars. AN HON . 1-IDIBER: The way you are talking ••••• MR. NEARY: No.I have only had two so far, one paid for by the Minister of Justice - Legal Aid? Yes, I did receive Legal Aid, Sir, in a different form, AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible.

MR. NEARY: nnn I had one of the best solicitors 1I suppose 1in this Province. AN BON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. NEARY: And I have got another one now, no L~gal .Aid, who is equally as good, But, Sir, the lawyers themselves - Mr. Chairman, the lawyers themselves would like to - I know because I have talked to several in the last week or so who would like to have an accounting of this $340,000 that was shared out last year. And as taxpayers they are entitled to that 3749

April 10, 1975 Tape 1248 (Afternoon) PK - 2 information. And I hope the minister will not get up now and just try and brush it off by saying, oh, you know, we are not going to interfere with the internal operations of the lawyers' union. No we are not going to do that. AN HON. ME}IBER: Inaudible. MR. NEARY: Who do they think they are? What I would suggest, Sir, in view of the fact that there was a suspension,and I do not know whether it was justified or unjustified, in view of the fact that there was, that there be an investigation into the lawyers' union. Let us get their constitution out in the open.

Let us see what justification they have for this kind of disciplinary action. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. NEARY: So, Mr. Chairman, I would hope, Sir, that the minister would give us a full explanation of this whole matter of Legal Aid before - HON. MEMBERS: MR. ROBERTS: MR. CHAIRMAN: AN HON. MEMBER: MR. ROBERTS: AN HON. MEMBER: MR. ROBERTS: AN HON. MEMBER: MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Chairman - MR. MURPHY: MR. ROBERTS: the floor please? MR. CHAIRMAN: Inaudible. Mr. Chairman We have three honourable gentlemen who - The Leader of the Opposition - I have to go to see - Inaudible. I want to say a word or two - Inaudible.

Stand up when you are speaking 'Ank', please. Inaudible, Mr. Chairman, would Your Honour then rule who has Order, please! While the Hon. the Minister of Social Services had the floor, and while I am not sure whether he had relinquished the floor or not 1 I guess once a person sits down he has relinquished his right to have the floor.

However, certainly if an honourable member does sit down and does another honourable member the courtesy of giving up his right to speak, I think it is rather improper for that honourable member to make a derisive comment as the Leader of the Opposition did to the Minister of Social Services . by referring to him rather derisively' 3750

Apr:ll 10, 1975 Tape 1248 (Afternoon) PK - 3 ;,s in the 1>hrase "Sit down I Ank"' I thi* is what he said. I s11ggest the honourable 111e111ber migllt be a little more courteous, MR, ROJSERTS: • • • • I regret it, and you know I am qui-te willing to apologize for it. It was only because it was a very rude 1arrogant, u.asty cOllllllteQt made by the honoural>le mi.ai.ster, Mr. Chairman. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible, MR, ROBERTS: Mr. Ctunrman, i _f I wanted to be derisive the Member for Burgeo invites derision, but that i 's another story, AN lIO:N. ~Ell: Iua.udible. MR.

ROBEITS: I want to say a word or two about a different aspect of Legal Aid, and that is the problem raised - my colleague has taj,sed some matters wh!lch, I think, should be answered and dealt with. Perhaps the gentleman for St. John I s South will speak to that point as well as the mimster. But I am conce;rned, 54", with some statements that were made by the Member for Pl11.ceoti,a East, who unfortWlStely is not here today, the Select Committee is off holding some hearings, and these were 3751

April 10, 1975 Tape 1249 (afternoon) IB-1 reported in the Evening Telegram on March 18. I do not know if the minister has seen the - he must have seen it. I am sure he reads the paper each afternoon. Let me read part of it. The Legal Aid Committee may have to curtail its programme this year because of a lack of ftmds. Fintan Aylward, chairman of the committee, sa1.d this year they received a ten per cent jncrease in their budget, but we are anticipating a forty per cent increase in applicants. Mr, Aylward pointed out that during the past year the Legal Aid,officers in St.

John's and Corner Brook processed approximately 3,000 applications, but it is expected that the number will be in excess of 5,000 during the coming year. A St. John's lawyer said their budget during the past year amounted to $340,000, but this year has heen increased to only $380,000 which of course is the amount showing here, He said that if they are to provide the same service to the number of clients they expect this year (quote again) we are going to need an extra S22S,nOO. He goes on to talk a little about what Legal Aid was done.

Now, the chairman said that last year it was the committee's understanding that they would receive an annual grant from the Provincial Government to pay the administrative costs, the cost of civil matters and the remaining ten per cent of the cost of criminal matters that is not covered by the federal contribution, He said it was also tmderstood that the federal contribution would be paid to the committee.

"However, the Prc-vincial Government's position is that the annual grant would cover all the costs and the federal contribution would be paid directly to the provincial treasury." Now, my question or my concern is this, Sir. We have in the estimates here an amount of $3R0,000, and we are showing a related revenue from the Government of Canada of $85,000. Now, the minister - I am sure there is an explanation - but I would like the minister to provide it.

Ottawa provides ninety per cent of the cost of providing criminal aid or, I am sorry, Legal Aid in criminal matters,on the criminal side in an amotmt not to exceed fifty cents per capita I believe. AN HONOURABLE t-lEMBER: Inaudible . 3752

April 10, l975 Tape 1249 (afternoon) IB-2 MR. ROBERTS: They are at least a year behind in sending their payments. Well - MR. HICKMAN : Inaudible. MR. ROBERTS : Okay, but I mean, my first point is then,or the answer to it is that Ottawa have not sent us the money they owe us under the agreement. Let us leave aside a moment why they have not done that. Rut, surely we are to get more than $85,000 revenue this year? But, we are entitled to $260,000 at fifty cents per capita. _MR.

HICKMAN: We have not received - the only payment we have received from the Government of Canada since this programme was implemented, you know, since the agreement was signed, back in 1972 was a few thousand dollars. MR. ROBERTS: But, it was $75,000 shown last year, Mr. Chairman, you know, shown here in the printed estimate. MR. HICKMAN: Right, but - MR. ROBERTS: We have a different quintal of fish but one which is obviously worth some examination. I am correct in recalling that it is $260,000 a year provided that is not more than ninety per cent of the cost.

Well, we spent more than $286,000 a year on Legal Aid on the criminal side. Therefore, we are entitled to receive $260,000 or $270,000, fifty cents per capita. MR . HI CKMAN: We have received so far a total sum from the Government of Canada on account of the Legal Aid of $2,460,80. MR . ROBERTS : That is astonishing, and I would hope when the minister speaks, he could tell us exactly how much is owed and what is being done to collect it, It is an old problem, :MR. HICKMAN: They want to pay once a year and they will not pay until after our year is ended. Our Auditor-General goes in and does the audit first.

Then following that there is a claim prepared and filed. Then they send down their Auditors and well, you know, it - "MR. ROBERTS: It is obviously an administrative nightmare and perhaps becoming wiwork~ble. MR. HICKMAN: That is right, which every Province is complaining about, but the accountants in Ottawa say that they are better accountants 3753

April 10, 1975 Tape 1249 (afterno on) than the provincial people are . That is the way it goes. MR. ROBERTS: Well , they might n~t be better accountants. They are obviously bett er bookkeepers or money ~eepers . Now, Mr. Chairman, the minister may want to expand upon it but he has dealt with the fjrst point which is why the revenue is so low. We are entitled to receive this year rom Ottawa under the formula, under that agreement, approximately $270,onn. MR .

RICKMAN: Well, we will get it next year. !B-3 MR, ROBERTS: R:l:ght, Well then we are entitled tc;, receive approximately $270,000 in respect of last year which ve should get this year. MR, HICKMAN: Oh. All right:. Go ahead. I was only trying - MR. ROBERTS: Well, I mean, I - MR. HICKMAN: I know this is not the way to deal with it. MR. ROBERTS: No. But iny paint is - the first: point is,where is the revenue? The minister could explain that because, you know, n'ine ty per cent of the cost of criminal aid, criminal Legal Aid, not to exceed fifty cents per capita is pald by Ottawa. The civil side 375 4

April 10, 1975 Tape 1250 (Afternoon) PK - 1 of the Legal Aid programme is entirely the responsibility of the government of the Province. MR. HICKMAN: Let us s~y - just to give you a little assurance right now. MR. ROBERTS: Yes, sure. MR. HICKMAN: Mr. Chairman, here is the situation on the Legal Aid. We made our first claim to the federal government re Legal Aid for the period of January 1 to March 31, 1973, on December 3, 1973. Our claim was for $2,460.80. We received payment of this claim from the federal government on February 13, 1974.

We made our second claim for the period April 1, 1973 to March 31, 1974 on November 5, 1974. Now let me stop right there. The audit of the period covering April 1, 1973 to March 31, 1974 was completed by the Auditor General on October 1, 1974 or thereabouts, and then there is a fairly complicated claim form, a yearly claim form, and we tried to argue with the Government of Canada that we should be paid quarterly. They insisted that it has got to be paid yearly after the work is done. Mr. Lang, that is, the Hon. Mr. Lang, the Minister of Justice acknowledged receipt of the claim on November 27, 1974.

Now there was a claim April 1, 1973 to March 31, 1974. The federal auditors came in to audit the claim on March 4, 1975. Our claim for that period was $77,052.57 - AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. HICKMAN: Yes, we will receive that money during this fiscal year from the Government of Canada, and that is all of the money that we will receive. Now for the period April 1, 1974 to March 31, 1975, you know, the audit will be finished,say in October, the claim will go in again in November.

Their auditors will come down and we will get - we are going to be a year behind every year, and there is not much we can do about it. MR. ROBERTS: So I thank the minister. There are two counnents. Number one, the estimates as printed are obviously hideously inaccurate in that case, on their revenue side)page 45. And therein,secondly,I find it interesting that we of the Bar are being audited to a much greater extent than any other federal programme. I do not know what that means, 3755

April 10, 1975 Tape 1250 (Afternoon) PK - 2 but one could read a great deal into it, and there will be those who do. But in my experience over the years in dealing with Ottawa, you know, normally it is the procedure is not nearly as complicated as that. And I do not know why it is - MR. HI CKMAi,-.: Normally they pay,do they not? MR. ROBERTS: Normally they pay quarterly,and they pay on the receipt of the certificate signed by the - MR. HICKMAN: MR. ROBERTS: audits. MR. HICKMAN: MR. ROBERTS: MR. HICK!!AN: MR. ROBERTS: That is right. deputy minister, the comptroller subject to later That is right.

I mean that is normal . Sure. They may be - the Auditor General's - take Medicare. The Auditor General each year has his regular plaintive cry about the fact the Medicare accounts are regularly not closed for a year or so afterwards, because they are related to the national per capita average costs and it takes a year or so to determine those. MR. HICKMAN: Anyway we can take some consolation in the fact that it is well audited. MR. ROBERTS: Well_, I find it consoling that the only thing that is so well audited apparently are the lawyers' clail'IS.

And I do not know - if my colleague for Bell Island had realized that he might have been able to - and in fact if ;,_ny of us had realized it he might have been able to say something about it. For what it is worth there it is. The much more important point, Mr. Chairman, is this, The gentleman for Placentia East speaking in his non-political capacity said that there is a very real danger - AN HON. HEMBER: Inaudible. MR. ROBERTS: I am not quoting.

I can read the quote - said the Legal Aid Committee is concerned about the small increase they have received this year from the government, and some cut-backs are going to have to be made in the programme unless further assistance is forthcoming from the government. 3758

April 10, 1975 Tape 1250 (.\fternoon) PK - 3 ,1\11 I ask is an assurance from the minister that the programme will 111Jt be curtailed. Going by what the Chairman of the · Legal Aid CoUllllittee sayi; in this statement here, unless the government are prepared to in.crease the amount of money, and it must be this government, whatevl;lr Ottawa are going to pay is fixed,even if we are a year or two getting it, it is fixed by that formula by the agreement between Ottawa and t,he :Province.

But unless the Province are prepared to increase the amount that they make available one of two things must happen - aad there are only two things which must happen because the scheme cannot run at adeficit.

The first thing which can happen is that the schet11e b tenninated that in month nine or month ten all the money is used up and t.he word goes out from the Legal Aid Committee that any lawyer who undertakes to act in a Legal Aid capacity will do it for charity because there is no more money available to pay the fees which have been agreed will be paid in respect of work forLegal Aid~ That is one thing which can happen. The second thing which could h.,ppen 3757

April 10, 1975 Tape 1251 (afternoon) IR-1 is that the programme is reduced, that instead of defending or acting in certain types of matters, a certain broad spectrum, we will act only in a narrower spectrum of matters. Either way people will suffer. Either way people who need help and who are entitled to get it under the programme as it now exists, will be denied that help.

So, what I ask is an assurance from the minister 1 I know estimates are only estimates, but here we have a case where the Chairman of the Committee .. who happens to be a political bedfellow of the honourable the minister, says that we are going to reed an extra $220,000. Now, I do not know if his estimate is right, wrong, left, center, up, down, in or out, hut I am prepared to accept it. We are going to need an extra $220,000. They only got an extra $40,000. So, there is an extra $180,000,if you wish, needed and not there.

Now, that would mean the scheme would have to shut down in month nine or month ten or the lawyers would have to work for charity - my brother at the bar, I suspect, would have some comments on that - or the scope of the scheme is reduced. So, all I ask essentially is an assurance from the minister that the scheme will not be allowed to run out. Indeed, if anything the scheme should be expanded because while the Legal Aid scheme is obviously serving a purpose, it is not meeting the need in Newfoundland by any means.

It may be meeting it on the criminal sidel I do not knowl But, judging by what I am told and by what I hear from my constituents and people throughout the Province, it is not meeting the need on the civil side. It is not. I could go into it in some detail if we wish, but my concern now is that at least what we have not be curtailed. There is a very real danger of that. For that we have the word of the gentleman from Placentia East who is Chairman of the Committee and who, as I said, is a political bedfellow of the honourable Minister of Justice. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please!

I wonder if at this time, rather than having the House go back, the Committee rise, that I might be able to give notice of 3758

April 10, 1975 Tape 1251 (afternoon) IB-2 the questions that are to be debated at five thirty. Will honourable gentlemen agree to that? Agreed. The first will be the question from the Member from St. Rarbe North directed to the Minister of Transportation and Commimications. The next will be the question of the ~mber for Bell Island directed to the Minister of Transportation and Communications, and the third the honourable Leader of the Opposition directed to the honourable the Minister of Health. MR. NEARY: Pardon me, Mr. Chairman. I put a matter to the Speaker, Sir, about - let me see, what is today?

Thursday? - last week, Friday or Monday about the electrical rates. That should be number one on the late show today, Sir. The Speaker has it in his office, I am sure, in his files. MR. CHAIRMAN: That was directed to which minister? MR. NEARY: To the Minister of Mines and Energy. MR. CHAIRMAN: That minister is not here. MR. NEARY: No, but it does not make any difference if the minister is here, Sir. I still have the right to debate it, Sir. MR. CRAIRMAN: The rules are, unfortunately if we are going to have a debate on which precedents are going to be answered, probably the Committee should rise.

However, it is in the discretion of the Speaker which questions are to be raised. However, I see no objection to having the honourable member ask his question to the Minister of Mines and Energy even though the gentleman is not here. MR. NEARY: The Minister of Industrial Development is going to reply to it. MR. CHAIRMAN: Very good then. In any event, the sequence will be the same. The Member for St.

Barbe North first,directed to the M~nister of Transportation and Communications;and the Member for Bell Island,a question directed to the Minister of Mines and Energy or some other minister who might wish to reply;and the honourable Leader of the Opposition, his question directed to the Minister of Health. 3759

Apr il 10 , 1975 Tape 1251 (afternoon) MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, I am not questioning Your Honour's ruling but the Speaker has already established a precedent in this House that the first question, Sir, is the first one that is debated on the Late ·Show. Yes, Sir. Mr. Chairman - MR. CRAIRMAN: In this case I ask the House Leader if he might rise the Committee so I can make a ruling on this from the proper place. MR. CROSBIE: On motion that the Committee rise, report progress and ask leave to sit again. On motion that the Co111111ittee rise, report progress and ask leave to sit again, Mr. Speaker returned to the Chair. Ill-3 3700

April 10, 1975 Tape No. 1252 NM - 1 MR. CHAIRMAN (WELLS): The Committee of Supply reports progress and asks leave to sit again, MR. SPEAKER: The Chairman of the Committee of Supply reports that they have considered the matters to them referred, have made progress and ask leave to sit again. On motion report received and adopted. With regard to the matters raised while in committee, it has been designated the House resuming its normal course of business, I refer honourable members to

section 31, subsection (

j) of the Standing Orders which reads as follows: "When several members have given notice of intention to raise matters on the adjournment of the House, the Speaker shall decide the order in which such matters are to be raised, In doing so he shall have regard for the order in which notices were given, the urgency of the matters raised and to the apportioning of the opportunities to debate such matters among the members of the various parties in the House.

The Speaker may at his discretion consult the representatives of the parties .in such order and be guided by their advice." In this particular instance, the Chair neted that the Minister of Transportation and Communications, and the Member for St. Barbe North were engaged in a discussion of the similar question last week and the question in effect was unanswered, consequently that question was placed first on the adjournment debate and other questions will follow in their natural order. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to appeal your Speaker's ruling because, Sir, on the grounds that the Speaker of this House, Sir, has already stated in the House that the questions would be put on the late show in the order in which they were presented. Mine was presented, Sir, several days ago in writing to the Speaker of this honourable House, to Speaker Russell. MR. SPEAKER (STAGG): The motion is that the Speaker's ruling be upheld. Those in favour "aye", those against "aay", in my opinion the "ayes" have it. 3761

April 10, 1975 Tape No. 1252 NM - 2 On motion that the House resolve itself into Committee of Supply, Mr. Speaker left the Chair. MR. CHAIRMAN: 712-03 The Member for Bell Island. MR. NEARY: No, Sir, I asked the Minister of Justice, Sir, if he would give the House a full accountability of this $340,000 that was spent last year and I asked the minister also if he would ask the lawyers' union to open up their records and open up their books to the House and I am sure they they have nothing to hide, Sir. I am not saying for one minute, Mr.

Chairman, that there was anything improper about this, I hope the Member for St. John's South is not misinterpreting what I am saying. And I also want to say, Mr. Chairman, while I am on my feet that I was not consulted or asked by the gentleman who was suspended from Legal Aid to raise his case in the House. I was not, Sir. I am basing my case in the House on what I read in the newspapers, a release, because you see I have to say that, Mr. Chairman, because if I do not they are likely to go out with the guns and shoot the poor fellow, according to what they did with him - MR.

HICKMAN: But you did tell us you had copies of the letters. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, the gentleman came to me - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible. MR. NEARY: Wait now, let us get it straight. The gentleman came to me, Sir, with the letters because he said that he had confronted the Member for Placentia East and the Member for Placentia East had told him that I was one of the people who complained. MR. DOODY: Too bad you do not say that when the member is here. MR. NEARY: It is not my fault the member is not here and I, Mr. Chairman, whatever I say inside of this House I am prepared to say outside of it, and have said.

MR. EVANS: Because you know Legal Aid is available for it. MR. NEARY: Sir, I want to make that perfectly clear. This was in December,by the way,that I was accused of this. It was December that Miss Murphy, the Editor of Debates retired and the govermnent gave her a dinner over at the Arts and Culture Centre when I first heard of this 3762

April 10, 1975 Tape No. 1252 NM - 3 matte r involving two l earned friend~, two learned gentlemen and probably two friends, but I was not asked by either one of these gentlemen to fight their case on the floor of this House. I want to make that perfectly clear. Because other disciplinary action could be taken again.st them, Sir, if for one minut e the Law Society thought that that was the case, because, • Sir. it is a closed organization, and in my opinion, Sir, it is very, very dangerous , t he best closed shop in the world.

All I am asking the Minist er of Justice to do is to give us an accounting, to ask the lawyers' union to open up their records and their books , to present their rates, to give us their rates so that we coul d take a look at the rates . 376 3

April 10, 1975 Tape no. 1253 Page l - mw Mr. Chairman, what is wrong with the minister saying, look, here are the rates charged by the lawyers under Legal Aid? Is there anything wrong with that? If you hire a mechanic or a plumber or an electrican or if you go up and get your car fixed up to a garage, what is the rate,you say to him. And nine chances out of ten the rate is published in the newspaper, hung on the wall. Or it is in a little contract, union contract, as I say, here are the rates. AN HON. MEMBER: You cannot afford it anyway. MR. NEARY: Who cannot afford it? Mr.

Chairman, I am hoping, Sir, I am hoping for their own sake and, you know, Mr. Chairman, I can see the wheels turning over there now in St. John's South. I am not knocking Legal Aid, Sir. I am all for it. I am not knocking it. All I am asking for is an accounting of the money. How may lawyers got it? How many law firms got it? Is it one-sided? I know lawyers who do not participate in Legal Aid and have not got one cent and do not want to. MR. HICKMAN: There is no law which can compel them to. MR. NEARY: I beg your pardon? MR. HICKMAN: There is no law which can compel them to. MR. NEARY: No, of course not.

Who said there was? MR. DOODY: (Inaudible). MR. NEARY: Was this money1 $340,000,paid out to a half a dozen lawyers, ten lawyers, one law firm, twenty law firms, fifty law firms, how many? AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. NEARY: Pardon? AN HON. MEMBER: One thousand. MR. NEARY: No, not a thousand. There are not that many around. They got a hammer lock on Newfoundland. They got a strangle hold on us. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. NEARY: No, Sir, there is nothing wrong with my question 3764

April 10. 1975 Tape no, 1253 Page 2 - mw to the Minister of Justice, I am all for Legal Aid. I am all for our people getting a fair shake, getting good representation in the courts in criminal and civil matters. I have no objection to that, Sir. at all. I do not think for one minute that the progranune is being abused. but I was a bit taken aback, a bit rocked back on my heels~when I picked up the newspaper and saw that one learned gentleman had been suspended for soliciting, for soliciting. Is thst a criminal offence to go out and try to drum up a little bit of business for yourself?

I thought this was the capitalistic system we were living under? MR. HICKMAN: It is in some professions. MR. NEARY: It is in some professions? The oldest one in the world is the only one that I know of, Sir, where you cannot solicit, and in certain countries that is legal too. It is not legal in Newfoundland. But apart from that oldest profession in the world Sir, where it is illegal to solicit, the only other organization on the face of the ~arth in Newfoundland, especially, that I know of where you cannot solicit is the lawyers' union. You are not allowed to try to get a bit of pusiness.

You are not allowed to advertise the fact - you open an office downtown·; and you would -iike for a few people to drop in and see you once in a while and perhaps if some poor fellow needs Legal Aid. he would not even know where to go look for a lwwyer,So you hang out your shingle and you say, come down,boy, come down to my office, I will take on your case. Because, Mr. Chairman, remember - MR.DOODY: Sure,all he got to do is phone you. You must know every lawyer in town. MR. NEARY: Well 1I tell you, I am becoming a crackerjack, a walking encyclopedia, Sir, on jurisprudence and legal matters.

That is why, Sir, I can stand in this honouable House and ride the razor ·'s edge and 3765

April 20, 197 5 Tape no. 1253 Page 3 - mw give it to the lawyers right, left and centre and they cannot get anything to hang their hat on to get back at me apart from the fact, Sir, that they will try to say, oh, this was an internal matter, this is a matter of how we distribute Legal Aid. MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable gentleman did a good job of walking the razor's edge that ti.me. MR. NEARY: It is an internal matter how we spend the taxpayers' money, the $380,000. I say it is not.

I would say that before this committee approves almost a half a n ,illion dollars for any organization in this Province that first of all we should insist that they give an accounting of how that money is spent. MR. DOODY: (Inaudible). MR. NEARY: No, Mr. Chairman. I just finished explaining to the committee, Sir, that I am all for Legal Aid. I am all for it. I am not knocking it. It is unfortunate, it is tragic , Sir, it is tragic indeed, in my opinion, that the lawyers have not followed the traditional pattern that was set by their ancestors and had not given a little charity.

They can well afford to give a little charity, Sir. And I know the member for St. John's South is going to say, even with Legal Aid, _we still do the odd job for nothing. 3766

April 10, 1975 Tape 1254 (Afternoon) PK - 1 I hope he does not say that because if he does he may be disciplined tomorrow by the lawyers' union for undercutting or for giving charity. You are not allowed to cut your rate. And I know, Sir, and my honourable friend knows that they are at it all of the time. Even under Legal Aid they are competing with one another. They are cutting rates,under the table deals, over the table, they are cutting - AN UON. MID!BER: Discounts MR. NEARY: discounts. AN HON • . MIDIBER: Inaudible. MR. NEARY: And they are not allow to solicit. What foolish nonsense! What foolish nonsense!

All I am asking, Mr. Chairman, for the lawyers to do it for their own sake, and their own protection, is for the minister to table the rate in this honourable House, to table a list of all · the monies that is being dispersed and who got it. firm? Was it two? Was it three? How many? Was it one law AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR.

NEARY: Open up their books if they have nothing to hide, if they are not ashamed of anything,like every other organization in society, in this free and democratic society of ours) every organization, Sir, will 1 when asked especially by the minister and by the honourable House,open up their books. AN HON. ~!EMBER: MR. NEARY: AN HON. }!EUBER: MR. NEARY: AN HON. Mfil!BER: }Ul. NEARY: Inaudible. Let us have a look at their rates. Inaudible. Nineteen what? Inaudible. Yes, I want to make sure that the minister 1 when the minister stands he will not twist and turn and try to distort my remarks.

I want to repeat it again, Sir. All I am doing is asking the minister - Fet this straight - and sometimes you have to say it so that some of the people in the galleries will understand it. }lll. DOODY: You have repeated yourself so often that even Smallwood is running. MR. NEARY: I want the minister to table a list of the lawyers who have received money from this $340,000 of the taxpayers money. What law 3767

April 10, 1975 Tape 1254 (Afternoon) PK - 2 firms? Table the rates. AN HON. HEMBER: Iaaudible. MR. NEARY: I know, Mr. Chairman, I know it is awfully funny, yo.u know, awfully, awfully funny. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. AN HON. MEMBER: The honourable gentleman will be accnsing us of filibustering later on. MR. NEARY: AN HON. MEMBER: MR. NEARY: No I am not. Inaudible. No, Sir, we did not set the severity-five hours in this honourable House. That was set by the government. MR. HICKMAN: The same question has been asked by the honourable gentleman for Bell Island in the last - UR. NEARY: MR. JIICKMAN: MR. NEARY: NR.

HICKMAN: MR. NEARY: MR. HICKMAN: AN HON. MEMBER: 11R. NEARY: Twenty times. Twenty-one. Twenty-one times. Twenty-one times. Will I get the answer? Am I going to get the answer? I think you should ask another twenty-one times first. Inaudible. Mr. Chairman, if I do not get the answer I will get up and I will ask it another fifty times, HR. HICKMAN: Good. MR. NEARY: but I hope it will sink into everybody in this Province ••. MR. HICKMAN: Good. MR. NEARY: that the lawyers' union will not produce an accounting, that they will not open their books.

And if they do not open their books they must have something to hide, MR. HICKMAN: Your honourable leader just expressed the surprise, the satisfaction that the lawyers' accounts are the only two that are subjected to the Auditor General and also the audit from Ottawa. AN HON. MEMBER: MR. NEARY: NR. HICIO!AN: Stop talking out loud. Mr. Chairman, - I am going to report you . 3768

April 10, 1975 Tape 1254 (Afternoon) PK - 3 HR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, that is not the question, Sir. That is not the question. The minister is dragging a red herring into the argument. That is not the question. You can go down, Sir- one law firm could get this whole $340,000 and all the accountants and auditors in the world could go down and say,yes there is nothing wmng with it. Thev char~ed the X number of dollars. They charged these rates, and the audit would be accepted. Why not? No swindling, no under the table deals, no abuse. MR. HICKMAN: Right. MR. NEARY: One law firm got $340,000. Good for them.

The auditor says everything is proper and aboveboard. And I would assume, Sir, that is what happened when the audit is done,that everything is proper and in order. MR. HICKMAN: And it jg too. MR. NEARY: But how much? What I am asking is how much was paid out to these individual lawyers and law firms? AN HON. MEMBER: MR. NEARY: AN HON. MEMBER: MR. NEARY: And the rates too. And the rates, I want to know the rates. Inaudible. No, Sir, I want the people of this Province to know how their money is being spent,that is all. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. NEARY: Protector. Protector of the public purse.

And I am hoping, Sir, that the Minister of Justice will not try to distort or quote me out of context or twist and turn as he usually does. This is a straightforward request. HR. HICKMAN: What? What is the request? MR. NEARY: Not a criticism of the lawyers' union. Although I could. MR. HICKMAN: You could do that too if you wanted to. MR.NEARY: I could probably do that too if I wanted to. MR. HICKMAN: Yes, MR. NEARY: But I certainly have strong criticism for the Disciplinary Action Committee. I do not even know who they are, ~o you cannot say I am bandying names around.

But I think the minister is the one who should have the final say in whether anybody is 3769

April In, 1975 Tape 1255 (afternoon) going to be suspended under this Legal Aid Programme or not and not abdicate his responsibility and pawn it off on somebody else. How do we know but they may hate somebody - or maybe jealousy and hate and greed. How do we know? noes the minister know? AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. rn-1 MR. NEARY: Yes, jealousy, hate, greed, local politics, internal politics, religion - it could be anything, Sir. It could be anything. The whole thing should be complete and above~oard when you are us~ng the taxpayer's money. Put it all on the table of the House and let us have a look at it.

Then we will judge whether or not our money: is being spent wisely. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for St. John's South. MR. WELLS: Mr. Chairman, the honourable Member for Bell Island talks about walking the razor's edge. '!'he trouble with that is that when you get cut in two, if you are like the honourable member you do not even recognize it. You know, Mr. Chairman, I hope that I can speak on this matter without exhibiting the prejudice that the honourable member has exhibited this afternoon in his remarks,hecause he does not really care who was suspended or what law firm gets the money.

This is merely a sounding board for him in his crusade against a particular profession. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, a point of order. You are not allowed to question the motives of honourable members of this House. I would submit to Your Honour that my learned friend has just, Sir, questioned my motives in this matter. My motives are sincere, honest and above­ board, Sir, and I would submit that the member is out of order and that he be asked to retract that last statement he made there, Your Honour. MR. WELLS: Mr. Chairman, it is not necessary to wait for a ruling in this case.

If it is improper to impute motive, by all means I withdraw it. But, I think that the remarks of the honourable gentleman speak for themselves. Those who hear them will know how to interpret them. The point is, Mr. Chairman, I would like to get back to a sensible discussion of Legal Aid without a lot of red herring ann a lot of things, whatever the motive, which draw the whole thing into disrepute and can 3770

April 10, 1975 Tape 1255 (afternoon) IB-2 only bring the minds of the general public to considerinp; that there is something wrong here something which has to be hidden or there is something improper. Let us go back to the beginnings of Legal Aid and I will attempt to give some explanation as to how the thing works. Legal Afd has been on the go in other countries, in other jurisdictions, I am sure, at least to my own knowledge, thirty or forty years. It got going in England approximately twenty years ago.

It has been going somewhat longer than it has here in other Provinces of r.anada,and it was felt here by certain members of the public, by lawyers and others,around four or five years ago that it was time that Legal Aid was started in Newfotmdland in order to attempt to bring a service to people, a legal service to people, who perhaps could not afford to pay for it. Now, nobody knew with any certainty four or five years ago how many people would draw on Legal Aid, how many people needed Legal Aid. I think you have got to look at certain aspects of our pattern of settlement in Newfoundland to understand that.

You see, in more wealthy societies, communities of 3,000 or 4,000 people have been able to support lawyers, doctors, accowitants, a lot of professional people, and a lot of skilled trades people which Newfoundland communities historically have not been able to support. Therefore, you go into certain Provinces of Canada or to England or to the States in the United States, you get a community with 4,000 or 5,000 people, it maybe has two solicitors, but it seems to me that the economic basis under most of the communities of Newfoundland have not been able to provide this.

In other words, you went in a community of 3,000 people or 2,000 people in Newfoundland, you would not have a doctor,perhaps,in a fishing community if the government did not put him there. You have not got a chartered accountant. You have not got a consulting engineer. You have not got a lawyer. The answer is not that people do not want to live in that particular climate or they do not like the place. The answer is, Mr. Chairman, that the economic underpinnings of the community have been such that these services cannot be afforded. That 3771

April 10, 1975 Tape 1255 (afternoon) Ill-3 applies to skilled tradesmen as well as professional people. So, it was felt that legal aid ought to be tried in Newfoundland and the Law Society instituted the prograllllTlc and the government provided $10,000 to pay for some of the out of pocket expenses only. 3772

April 10, 1975 Tape 1256 (Afternoon) PK - 1 Lawyers who participated,and everybody was asked to participate, and most did, even senior lawyers w~o had substantial practices gave up their time. A good many of us went and sat nights down there in the old Justice Building and interviewed people trying to provide a service. And what was found was that there was a demand for Legal Aid far more than anybody thought up to that time.

Gradually the federal government, or not gradually, a couple of years ago the federal government became involved and the provincial government then joined forces _with the federal government paying the greater share of the cost, although the minister says they have not actually paid the money yet. But that is a matter of accounting, I gather. The money will be forthcoming. And what has been found ever since Legal Aid was institutedrwas that people required this service. There were people who wanted to sit down and talk to a lawyer but who were afraid to do so, that they might get into cost.

They did not know how to go about it and Legal Aid ,has filled a definite need here as it has filled in many other countries and provinces and states in the United States. Now that iA what has happened in the last three or four years. I cannot see anything sinister in it or anything wrong with it. I think it is a good progrBlllDle. I think it is a service that the federal government,chiefly, and the provincial government are bringing to the people of Newfoundland. Now my friend opposite, the Justice critic for want of a better name, that is what he appears to be,has suggested that things are not right with that.

There is something wrong. But I would wish - MR. NEARY: Inaudible. MR. WELLS: Well the innuendo is there, even if it is not explicitly stated, Mr. Chairman, and I would wish to refute that. Now, I think also we must examine his allegation that everything should be laid on the table. If the minister has and wishes to lay the figures on the tabler and Lam sure he has got the figures, I would be delighted to see them. I do not see whether it matters, it would not 3773

April 10, 1975 Tape 1256 (Afternoon) PK - 2 matter to me, but I do not see that it matters whether individual lawyers should be named or not. I do not think that is the point, because you have to go back to how this is done. Now if the honoUZ'able member wants to avail of Lep;al Airl - I think by the way he talked about the profession, he said a great deal about the profession.

I think one of the strongest statements of approval for the profession is that a man who 1aid so much about it 1 my honourable friend over there,can go down to eminent counsels in this Province when he needs them ~n~ they will take on his case, no problem, no questions asked how tliey may feel about him. MR. NEARY: MR. WELLS: MR. NEARY: MR. WELLS: Inaudible. And maybe they do or maybe some members of their firm. Inaudible. Ob, I see. So the honourable member seeks people who do not participate rather than those who do. Is that the - MR. NEAF:Y: Inaudible. MR. WELLS: It is just the way it happens.

Well that is all right. It is pure coincidence. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. WELLS: But the point is that if the honourable member were to go to somebody who participated in Legal Aid, and he needed Lep;al Aid, the lawyer concerned or he himself - MR. NEARY: The member would be - MR. WELLS: Well thank you, thank you. I would take the honourable member on. The person looking for legal aid, Mr. Chairman, goes to a lawyer or goes to Legal Aid and he chooses his lawyer. That is the first and fundamental point here. It is not a matter of going to Legal Aid and they say you must have Mr.

X because we are trying to give him a bit of patronage, we are trying to put a few dollars his way. That is not the way it works. A member of the public goes to Legal Aid and he says, I would like to have Mr. John Jones, whoever he might be, if he participates in the Legal Aid Programme, it 111ight his first week called to the Bar or h& might be a twenty year man, and he says 1 I would like to have him, and 3774

April 10, 1975 T~pe 1256 (Afternoon) PK - 3 if that is what he wants then be is assigned to Mr, Jones. and Mr. Jones who part:tcipates in Legal Aid must accept him. And that is the way trat works. Now, then I there are some people wbo do not knotoT of a· lawyer or do not know who they would like to have and they go to Legal Aid and they say,I :want a lawyer, And Legal Aid 1.Qoks up and then on a r.otation bas.is tliey assign cases to the next lawyer whose name COl!les up. Now that is the "1'.&y the thing works.

So there is no question of patronage. no question of some lawyers getU.ng the bulk of :f..t because • they are, you know, a friend of the Legal Aid Soc;.iety or SOllll!thing like that, ~ HON, MEMBEJl: Inaudible. MR. WELLS: That is not so. That is absolutely not so. Now that is the way the thing -works. Now,all right , Afterthe lawyer does the work for the client he must submit a bill.

But it is not a 'lllatter of his submitting a bill, whatever he feels like, and they lash out a cheque to him, Re has to go to the Deputy Registrar of the Supreme Court and have his bill taxed 1 which means that the Deputy Registrar of the Supreme Court goes over his bill item by item and decides 3775

April 10, 1975 Tape no. 1257 Pag 1 - mw if it is proper, if the bill is proper. And he may cut it down, but he will never increase it, He may allow it or he may cut it down, and he puts his signature on that and that is what the lawyer gets paid,because that tax bill of costs then goes to the Legal Aid Society or the Legal Aid office and that is their authority for paying it except for certain matters such as small matters which are under, I do not know, $200 or something like that. The permanent Director of Legal Aid taxes these smaller bills h1lllself, A $35 or $40 or $50 amount, he will tax that himself.

And also I understand recently in divorce matters,uncontested divorces which follow a pattern in the courts and are dealt with probably four or five a morning that the fees are so standard there that the Director of Legal Aid will tax these also. But there is no question of anybody getting away with fat amounts out of Legal Aid because you have to go to the Supreme Court and the Supreme Court decides what you will be paid for the service - MR. NEARY: The Supreme Court does not. decide. MR. WELLS: It does so decide. MR. NEARY: You are giving completely the wrong impression. MR. WELLS: The Deputy Kegistrar - MR.

NEARY: (Inaudible) • MR. CHAIRMAN (Mr. Dunphy): Order, please! MR. WELLS: MR. NEARY: MR. WELLS: MR. NEARY: MR. WELLS: MR. NEARY: MR, WELLS: MR. NF.ARY: The Deputy Registrar - The Deputy Registrar of - - of the Supreme Court, who is not a lawyer - Not of the Supreme Court, He is. He is an officer of the Supreme Court, An officer? An officer of the Supreme Court, And not the Supreme Court. 3776

April 10, 1975 Tape no. 1257 Page 2 - mw MR. WELLS: - so that he is a taxing master of the Supreme Court, and his job is to decide and tax costs and btlls and that is what he does. He is not a member of the Law Society or a lawyer. He taxes them. He decides what is to be paid and then the Legal Aid pays it. Now whether you agree with this taxation or you do not does not matter. The point is that the Legal Aid pays what is on that tax bill of costs. They have no jurisdiction to decide what the la'lfYer should get for the services performed. AN HON~ MEMBER: And he has no control over the ratea. MR.

WELLS: And he has no control over the rates. ~HON.MEMBER: Where are the rates set? MR. WELLS: The rates are set not by the Law Society but by the government, as I understand it, because it is public moneys. Is that correct Mr. Minister? MR. NEARY: (Inaudible). MR. WELLS: Oh, no, that is correct. It is not the regular scale of fees that is applied in Legal ~id cases but a scale of fees that is presented to you-Now you can participate in this programme if you want to, here are the rates. Now the honourable member smirks. Now is the honourable member challenging what I said? Am: I lying?

It is easy enough to laugh, Mr. Chairman, and try to make a joke. Talk about walk the razor's edge, you can see what happens. MR. EVANS: MR. NEARY: MR. WELLS: (Inaudible). Sick. No, no, not sick, not sick. But happens to know a little more about the way this system works than the honourable justice critic on the other side. So, Mr. Chairman, there it is. Now if the minister has the information I am sure he will table it, of what was spent on criminal, what was spent on civil and all these sort of things. But what went to the individuals went because the 3777

April 10, 1975 Tape no. 1257 Page 3 - mw particular person who got Legal Aid ahose that individual or, if he did not choos