Volume 1 PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND THIRTY-SIXTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND 1st Session VERBATIM REPORT Tuesday, June 20, 1972 SPEAKER: THE HONOURABLE JAMES M. RUSSELL NfWFCUNDl.1\ND Number 35 r,

June 20, 1972, Tape 848, Page 1 -- apb The House met at 3:00 p.m. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER~ Order! --- . --------- MOTIONS: :MR. NEARY: 1.fr. Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave of the House to introduce the following Resolution:

WHEREAS. in advertisements recruiting per.s9nnel and job descrintions published daily in our newspapers there are almost uniform references either to the desirable ape range for applicants or the demand that applicants state their age: and HHERF.JI..S, this is contrary to the spirit of the Newfoundland Human ~1rhts Code: and WllF.REM,. there is gravP danger employers are discriminating apainst applicants becanse of their age; BE IT THFREFOPE RESOLVED. by this Hounourable House Of Assembly in Legislative Session convened that the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador take appropriate steps to draw to the attention of all employers in both the private and public sector in this Province the impact of the Human Rights Code on their hirinp; practice and that the matter be referred to the Honourable Minister of Labour for immediate corrective action; and BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED, that the Administration intoduce legislation as soon as possible to amend

section 9 of subsection l(

b) of the Newfoundland Human Rights Code by deleting the words 45 years and insertinp 19 years so that no employer shall discriminate against any person in regard to employment or term or condition of employment because of that person's ap;e, if that person has attained the age of majority and has not reached the age of retirement. MP.. SPEAKER· I will receive the Resolution under advisement to see - ---- ---- --- if it meets the regulations for the Order Paper and so i,nform you~later in the day probably. 2661 -~· , .

June 20, 1972, Tape 848, Page 2 -- apb ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS: MR. DOYLE: ~!r. Speaker, on behalf of the honourable the Premier I would like to answer the verbal question asked by the honourable member from Bell Island, with reference to Newfoun,llanders, as to whether or not they get preference in permanent ~oh opportunities at Churchill ~alls.

The answer is as follows; some weeks ago, the government appointed a committee under the chairmanship of the honourable Minister of Labour to thoroughly investip:ate and study overall governmental policy regarding employment of Newfoundlanders on all industrial projects in the province. This,of course, includes Churchill Falls. This committee is studying the extent of the problem and depending on the seriousness of the situation appropriate legislation will be worked out to cover the situation in the very near future. MR. NEARY: Hr. Speaker, a supplementary question.

Does the honourable member •.• !>fR, SPEAKER: MR. NEARY: t'R • SPEAKER : ~'P. COLLINS: (Inaudible) Okay, Sir. Are there any other answers to questions? Mr. Speaker, I undertook to get some information for the honourable member for Bell Island concerning the resgination of of a councillor at Pouch Cove. I think he asked the c,uest:fon orally a few days ago. On April 25 a letter of resignation was received by the Town Council of Pouch Cove from Councillor Ceral.d Sullivan. The council accepted !"r. Sullivan's resip:nation and in. due course will arranre for a by-election. No t662

Jun2 20, 1972 Tape 849 (afternoon) PK - 1 MR. COLLINS: 'reason for the resignation is given. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. COLLINS: Well that is up to the Council they have six months co call a by-election. RON. C.W. DOODY: (MINU:11.'ER OF MINES, AGRICUL1'UR"R AND RESOURCES): Mr . Speaker, Questions lQq and 105 for the honourable member for Bonavista North and Question 106 for the hoI_1ourable member for Fogo. These three questions are pretty inter-related and I will try to the best of my ability to answer all three.

The arrangements being made to compensate persons moving from the communities listed in order to faciliate the establishment of the Gros Morne Park, well we have impressed upon the Government of Canada the necessity of signing a separate agreement in order to faciliate these people, It would seem that the circumstances there are rather unique.

They are different from any of the resettlement programmes that have gone before and we have made it quite clear that we have every intention of demanding a house for a house for these people and further compensation as is necessary,depending the decision of an arbitration board. The Government of Canada have assured us that they will not in any event force or ask anybody to move from the communities affected for a period of at least five years, possibly longer.

By that time it will he hoped that opportunities will be found for these people in other parts of the area or other parts of the Island, The last thing in the world that we want is to force anybody to move at any time. We have no intention of proceeding further along these lines unless we consult with and get the agreement of the people in the area. We hope that they will agree because the Gros Marne project appears to be something that ie very, very important and necessary to the economy of 2663 ,.-

June 20, 1972 Tape 849 (afternoon) PK - 2 HR. DOODY: that area. Taking steps to maintain entact and inhabited as ~any communities as possible within the intended boundaries of the Gros Morne Park, I spent some time talking to the hon. Mr.Chretien and officials of his department and they are quite sympathetic with most of the areas in the park. The three communities that they refuse to budge on at all are Baker's Brook, Green Point and Sally's Cove (a fond memory). AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. DOODY: Yes, that is right. It has had its moments.

They feel that because of the location of these three communities in relation what they call the ecological benefits of the park, they cannot see their way clear to let these people remain there. They say that either these three communities go or there will be no park. The question to the Minister of Fisheries,from the member for Fogo', We have gotten the consent of the Government of Canada to allow the fishemen in that area to continue fishing on the coast, certainly for this year, and in all probability for at least the five years that I mentioned a few moments ago.

We have also managed to obtain pemission for them to pursue the bait fishery in St. Paul's Inlet. The Government of Canada are talking now about setting up permanent fishing facilities on other parts of that Gros Morne Area to facilitate the fishermen in that spot. I can say also that this matter is very much in our minds and we will nver finalize the Gros ~orne thin~ until we are sure that all the people in the area are taken care oi iertainly to the best of our ability.

We are somewhat hampered by the fact that an agreement was signed a couple of years ago and very few of these things are adequately covered in it. The Government of Canada now takes the position here that the boundaries 1with a few exceptions which they feel are negotiable, the boundaries and the interior portion of the park 1 it is now 2664 having been agreed to by the Government of Newfoundland

June 20, 1972 Tape No. 850 NC - 1 the responsibility of the Government of Newfoundland to live up to our half of the bargain, They say they have spent ccnsiderable money and have acted in good faith and they feel that we should do the same, If we feel that the agreement that was signed is not a good agreement or that we should not have it,then tiey are willing to cancel the park project completely and forget about it, It is not an easy decision and it is not an easy problem but it'is one that we are going to have to pursue very carefully and with a great deal of effort.

If there are any supplementary questions, I would be happy to try to answer them. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, in the absence of the Premier, who apparently is not with us, but if I knew who the Deputy Premier was I would ask him. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. Hn. ROBERTS: Oh it does tend to rotate from hand to hand and whoever has it when the music stops gets to be Minister r,f Economic Development. But seriously, Mr. Speaker, j have a question which I quess the:. Honse Leader could answer,if there is to be an answer.

In view of the fact that you, Sir, have,as required by The Election Act, sent yesterday your certificate to the Clerk of the Executive Council, to the effect that there is now a vaeancy 1n this llouse,in view of the dec:i.sion of the Supreme CourL wi.th respect to Labrador South, your certificate of course, Sir, reads, "I hereby address my warrant to you,as Clerk of the Executive Council,for the issuing of a writ for a new election in the said district," my question is whether as yet that writ has been issued, whether the Executive Council have taken the necessary action? MR. MARSHALL: Mr.

Speaker, the situation on this is governed· by,if my tl

Section 147 O f the Election Act and the operative memory serves me correc y •. ' words are that the by-election Js to be called as soon as practical and 2665 ...... , ..

June 20, 1972 Tape No. 850 NC - 2 of course, a by-election will be called , ! presume,as soon as praccicable. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, as yet the writ has not been issued. MR. ~1ARSHALL: No . MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the honourable Deputy Premier, will the honourable Deputy Premier indicate to the House what arrangements,if any, the government have made to expedite the movement of a considerable backlog of passengers from the Labrador City - Wabush area in western Labrador? l ask the Deputy Premier. MR. MARSHALL: On a Point of Order, Nr .

Speaker, perhaps the honourable Memher for Bell Island i~ht designate who he wishes to be Oeputy Premier to answer that question, MR. ROBERTS: On a Point of Order, when the present Premier, the honourable gentleman from Humber West1 announced to the people of Newfoundland the composition of the present ministry, he designated the hon. gentleman from Burin, the Minister of Justice and President of the Executive Council, as the person who would act in his absence as Deputy Premier. I have no other information, but that was Dn the television and of course 1 I watched. If I am wrong,please correct me. MR.

HICKMAN: The announcement was that in the absence of the Premier, and this is the same procedure that is followed over the years, that in the absence of the Premier from the province, the President of the Council 1if he is in the province, serves as Acting Premier. There was a promise of an office about three years ago, that the office of Deputy Premier would be created, I am unaware of any legislation that was passed by this House. I might have been away the day it was passed, I am unaware of any legislation that was passed by this House creating the office of Deputy Premier. The office of the 2666

June 2(), 1972 Tape 851 actinP, Premier is created and the Leadec of the Opposition is aware of this. The acting Premier is appointed by the Lieutenant Governor-in-Council whenever the Premier is out of the province but you do not appoint an acting Premier when the Premier is in the province. MR. NEARY: Well, is the Premier not in the province? MR. HICKMAN: ·-·---· --- The present Premier is in tHe province. MR. NEARY: - - ---- I know it is most difficult to keep the Premier in his seat two days in a row, Mr. Speaker, So I would like to direct a question to the Minister of Labour.

He seems to be kind of anxious to answer. Perhaps he has the answer, I do not know. MR. ~fAYNARD: I am not particularly anxious to answer it, Mr. Sneaker, but I have been handlin? the situation, myself and the honourable member for Labrador West,on behalf of the Premier, The situation is we have been trying since 7:00 P.M. yesterday to find aircraft, chartered or otherwise, that would take the people out of Wabush, Labrador. Last nip:ht 1 for various reasons 1 EPA was unable to put an extra flight on. Air Canada did not have a plane available and Quebec Air was trying to clear up its backlog from yesterday.

The situation now is that there was one flight went into Labrador last night, one extra flighthy EPA but they could not go in after that. There is one gone in today and there will be one go in tonight and there will be another one at 1:30 A.M. tomorrow morning. To the best of my knowledge at this time that will leave approximately fifty people at the airport in Wabush1 presuming there are no other flights out,but there are regular flights on today and there will be space made available on one flight.

So the situation now,as far as we can assess it,is that most of these people are,probably all of them will be out by maybe three or four o'clock tomorrow morning. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I thank the honourable minister for the answer 2667 JM - 1 .... .. .

June 20, 1972 Tape 851 .TM - 2 to the question. He seems to be the only member on the other side of the House who is willinl! to give us any information. Seeing that he is in the mood, Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the honourable minister could tell the House, inform the House if the committee,that the honourable member who answered a ouestion on hehalf, as usua~, on behalf of the ~remier, the committee has yet started working? Because it is my understanding the nermanent work force at Churchill Falls is practically half hired.

The member informed us this afternoon 1 in the answer to a question,that the committee would look into this and my understanding is that the committee has not even started work yet. ~R . M~!A~~: ~r. Sneaker, in his speech now he has already ask a ouestion and - MR. MARSHALL: I am speaking on a point of order. Mr. Speaker. The honourable member has asked a question and he is now proceedin? to make a speech in support of the question. MR. NEARY: Do not be so .iumpy. Is the honourable minister going to answer the ouestion?

M!:fP~~F~ .2_ I would just like to remind all honourable members that they should not become involved in debating, makinp: speeches on questions 1 but the <1uestions should be short and to the point. Mr. Speaker, the honourable member's information that the committee has not started work is not quite true. As a matter of fact they have been working on the situation for the last four weeks and there was a meeting, as a matter of fact, this morning in my office.

The legal people from the Department of Justice have come up with vari .ous recommendations, The people from other departments have come up with various recommendations regarding training, job placement etc. We are trying to piece this together now and to put it into a form whereby it can be made into either regulations or legislation and we certainly '· 2668

June 20, 1972 Tape 851 hope to have this done within the next month at the vety late st. ~ . NEA~'!'._: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary questio n. Do r unde rstand from the minister ' s answer that the committee is dealin ~ with the permanent work force and not 1ust the construction force? MR. MAYNARD: Both construction and oermanent . ~:.-~NSOR:.. Mr. Speaker, hefore you call orders of the day, may I direct a question to the honourable Minister of 11isheries.

Yesterday it was stated, I am not sure, eithe r by the honoural,J e ~1inis ter of Finance or the honourable the Premier. that the Lakes had nothing more to do with the fish plant at nurgeo. May I direct the question to the honourable minister? Did or are 266 9 JM - 3

June ,\a, 1972 Tape no. 852 Lakes marketing the fish? If so~at what commission? If not, then who is marketing the fish ·processed at Burgeo Plant? Page 1 - MRW MR. CHEESEMAN: AN HON. MfillBER: I will take that question as notice Mr. Speaker. (Inaudible). MR. SPEAKER: Order! MR. HICKEY: Mr. Speaker I wonder if I could have leave of the House to present a petition? MR. SPEAKER: a petition? _AN HON. MEMBER: 3:00 P.M.? Does the honourable member have leave to introduce Did the honourable member have the petition at AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. SPEAKER: Does the honourable member have leave? Agreed. MR.

HICKEY: Thank you Mr. Speaker. I would like to present a petition on behalf of some 157 residents of Torbay, · Their request is that the widening and upgrading of the road known as Patrick's Path be continued, that the road be paved. Mr. Speaker this is an urgent request. The project was started last fall and for some unknown reason, certainly unknown to me, shortly after the election the workmen left rather hurriedly and I am sure inadvertently left a couple of utility poles in the middle of the road. I would urge the government that they attend to this matter~t is certainly art urgent one. MR.

ROBERTS: It is a most appropriate petition for a most appropriate day, because if we go into the estimates of the Department of Highway, when shortly Your Honour leaves the Chair, we will expect the (Acting) Minister of Highways to make an answer and thus will help his colleague the hon. Minister of Social Servies and Rehabiliation to pave Paddy's Path. t670

June 20, 1972 Tape no. 852 Page 2 ORDERS OF THE DAY. On motion of the hc,n, Minister of Ju_s-tice, a bill, "An Act To Provide A Pension For The !.etidng Registrar Of The Supreme Court," read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. On motion of tla.e hon. Minis ,ter of Highways, a bill, "An Act Fu.rthe.t To Amend The Highway Traffic Act, 1962.'' read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow, On motion .of the hon. Minister of Mines, Agri.culture and Resources, a bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Nomenclature Board Act, 1959,II read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow, On motion of the hon. Minister of Education and Youth, a bill,

An Act Further To Amend The Memorial Unive .raity Act, 11 .read a first time, or.de red re.ad a second time on tomorrow, 2671

June ZO, 1972. Taoe 853 Page 1, Connnittee of Supply: Mr. Speaker left the Chair. 1'fR.BARRY: Chairman of Committees. J!eaq!9g XVll, Highways . 1'fR.MAYNARD: Mr. Chairman, 1701-01, I would \ike to make a few general connnents I will try to be very brief. I would like to have all honourable members note that this year there will be a considerable reduction in the capital expenditures in the Department of Highways, compared to last year. I would like to say a few things regarding that. ~r.

Chairman, the year 1971-1972 the expneditures for capital works, that is improvement and reconstruction and new construction for the Department of Highways 1 amounted to $36 million. That was an increase from the year before,1970-1971,at which time the exoenditures were $17 million, In other words., Mr, Chairman, over one hundred per cent increase in spending in capital works. That expenditure for 1970-1971 was approximately seventy-five per cent increase over the previous year.

Obviously, as any one can see this trend could not continue, Beside the fact that there was more than one hundred per cent increase in spending, the previous administration saw fi~ to commit approximately seventy per cent of the money that you will see in this year's estimates. That was committed before the end of the calendar year 1971.

The one hundred per cent increase in actual spending last year and the commitment of funds which were not at that time voted· were drawing on the fact that there would be a further capital works budget this year, done for some strange reason and were one to four reasons which perhaps can he best explained by the honourable members opposite who were members of the government at that time. It is a very fine thing,Mr. Chairman, to carry on an intensive road building programme. But obviously, the province can ill-afford to retain a rate of increase approximately seventy-five to one hundred 2672

June 20, 1972. per cent per year. paved Tape 853, Page 2. I would love to see every road in this province 2673 , . .. ...

June 20, 1972, Tape 854, Pc1ge 1 -·· aph I would love to see four lane highways in most places, but unfortunately the province is not able to find the money now nor in the forseeable future whereby this can be done all in one lump sum, all in one lump project. I think we have to implement a system pf planning, very careful planning. So the estimates that you see this year are more or less a cleaning. We have inherited a great number of projects that have to be carried on. There is nothing worng with these pro.1ects, iust that they were left to us with very little money to add on any more.

We have added on a few, but a very minimum number. Essentially the estimates we are debating here will not be really a budget for the Highways Department - the nepartment of Highways­ presente<l by this administration, it will be one that was inherited by us. I think it is very necessary for us to stop for a few moments or pause and :'!ri.•' :rnr t;,e situation of roads construction in Newfoundland.

I have stuc'tied the figures for the past few years, the est:l.mates and the expenditures, and I have mana!?ed to break it down district by district as to where some of the money was spent or all of the money was snent last year and some of the money the years before. I lave not been able, ~r. Chairman, to detect any sort of a plan of any kind in the way that Hip.hways money was spent. If I were to mention that last year there were districts Phere the Provlncial ~overnment spent in excess of $3 million in one rural district, I am sure my hon. friend from St. Barbe North is shaking ri.ght now with anger.

It certainly does not indicate any sort of system of planning when you spend $3 million in one district, a rural district,when you have another district similar to and you spend a half million dollars, which is what was spent in St. Barbe North last year, Mr. Chairman.. AN HON. }!EMBER: Where was the $3 million spent? 2674

June !O, 1972, Tape 854, Page 2 -- apb The $3 million was spent in the District uf Fop;o. Well, this is really going to make you sad, because I have the breakdown of figures here. I will not read them all off, but since you asked tpe question, the honourable member for Lahrador North; }1'r. Chairman, in his district last year $100,000; the District of Labrador South $40,000; the District of Labrador West $108,000, The total for the very important area of Labrador, a total of some $248,000.

It may not be possible to put super highways across the area of Labrador nor up and down the Northern Peninsula, nor super highways out the Burin Peninsula that would satisfy everyone, but I submit, 1'1'r. Chairman, that we must establish a better system of priorities than that. To establish priorities, this government will within the next few days, and I will consider this as a verbal request now, but you will p,et a formal reouest, all M.H.A's, all members of the House of Assembly will be asked to list priorities for highways~ reconstruction, new construction and pavinp, in their districts.

It is not to indicate that we will suddenly come up with the money in the fiscal year 1972-73 to do all the projects that are listed, hut by getting the input from all }1'.H.A's. as to what are the priorities in their districts, then looking at the amount of work that has been done in each of thos districts in the past few years, I do think that we can establish a system of priorities so that all districts in Newfoudnland will be equally treated on a per population and per industry bas ,.s ,or per car basis or per vehicle or whatever you want. hut certainly a more equitable basis than that which exists at present.

I threw out a question to some of my officials while I was briefly Acting }1'inister of Highways,asking the simple questioni how much would it take, how much funds would be needed to meet all 2675 ..... · .......

June 20, 1972, Tape 854, Page 3 -- aph the demands and all the requirements that we know about at the present tirtie in the Province of Newfoundland? I think they based it more or less on the petitions that have been received plus their own assessment of which projects should come first and this sort of thin!", They told me that :It would reo\lire a block provisi.on of somethlnr in the vicinity of SlOO million to meet the present demands and that would still mean that we would ha.veto provide another fifteen to twenty million dollars per year for continuinr- capitRl works from there on, Obviously , l-'r.

Chairman, someone is goinr: to have to wait. It is unfortunate hut we just cannot, it is impossible for us to find that amount of funds. Seeing that some people do have to wait. it is going to he necessary for some districts to not have all their roads paved , reconstructed and paved at the same time. We have to brinp; in this system of priorities to make J.t more ee1uitnble across the province. I am not r,oing to continue on any farther ripht now, because I assume that each subhead or most of the subheads will be dehated as we JTI.ove through the estimates.

I will attempt ,in conjunction with the officials of the nepartment of Hip:hways, to answer as clearly as possible any ~uestion that may be put and m~ke comments on anythinp, that the hon. members want me to make comment on. ~•R. W .N .ROWF.: .. ---- ----- - }'r. Chairman, I do not intend to make any kind of a speech at all on the minister's salary, but he has tossed about this highfalutin word "priorities'' once or twice in his own remarks.

A lot of people have a tendency to accept that word on face value and not to inquire behind it, not to lift the veil to see exactly what a person is talking about when he uses that term. Would the honourable minister care to outline now, as we are discussinp; his salary, what he means by priorities in the field of highways? Will priority· be given to those hip.;hroads concerninp: t676

June 20, 1972, Tape 854, Page 4 -- apb which most demands have been made or will it be based on the amount of traffic, the number of cars, or will it be based on industrialization1 ·For example; roads to resources, roads to industries or will it be based on actual social need, population, population trends,length of time that the people have had a road without having it paved, or people not having any road at all? Exactly what does he mean by priority? It is a good word to use, it has some meaning I guess, although I have not had too much success in getting from anybody the exact meaning whenever they use it.

I believe it is a subjective concept used in a different way by every perso.n who uses it. I would like to hear what the honourable minister's idea of priority is. What will the road paving programme over the next four or five years,which has to be planned out in accordance with the Premier's statement 1 and in accordance with the minister's statement as well, what will the priorities be based on? What are the factors? What are the criteria which will go into the pot,out of which will come this great highway building plan over the next four or five years?

MR. ¥.AYNARD: To establish a system of priorities may seem to be a very complicated thing and possibly it is. I have not tried to establish a system of priorities yet in the Department of Highways and I probably will not have the opportunity, because, I am not going to be with it very long,I would imagine. I would assume that the input from the M.H.A's. if we receive any,and I am pretty sure we will, will certainly help to establish it. When I talk about priorities, I am not 2677 I•

June 20, 1972 Tape 855 talking about necessarily a very complex scientific formula that takes three or four weeks to run through a computer, We are talking about usinp simply basic common sense, If we see a highway in Newfound I ancl that is heavily travelled and has heavy traffic on it, it is leading . to a great number of people or in fact it is leading to a number of industries, then obviously that highway should, in my view, take priority over a highway that is leading essentially nowhere.

In the past we have seen highways built in places that suddenly loaded everything aboard their truck and moved out as soon as the highway was there. had been built for a few families at a cost of millions of dollars while the other people on the other side of the fence with great numbers of population,have been left oretty well stranded. I think the hiphway up the North West Coast of lilewfoundland is a pretty good example. Once you pass north of Brig Bay, J-'r. Chairman, I submit that the condition of the highway is absolutely ridiculous and I clo not think anyone can argue with me on that fact.

I travelled it a number of times and J will probably travel it a number of times in the future. But it is absolutely ridiculous and when you see that last year a total of $424,000 was committed on capital works in that JM - 1 area and you see other districts with $1 million, $1,5 million, $2 million, $3 million, plus some districts that had DREE contracts in it where the expenditures reached $12. mil'ion. ~- ~ MEMBER: (Inaudible) . MR. MAYNARD: Placentia East, DREE progrannne of $11. million. MR. ROBERTS: 'Placentia East. MR_:_ _ _!•11\_;YNARR_: That is what is on your sheets. M_R-!.. ROBER~_:_ West.

Now what say did the Government of Newfoundland have as to where that money went? MR. MAYNARD: Do you not think· 2678

June 20, 1972 Tape 855 MR. ROBERTS: What say did the Government of Newfoundland have as to where that money went, that Federal money? !ill· MAYNARD: All right, fine. Mr. Chairman, the honourable Leader of thP. Opposition says the Government of Newfoundland had no say over where - MR. ROBERTS: I did not say that. I asked what say they did have. MR. MAYNARD: All right you are asking the-question. The Federal Government spent $11. million in that district. The Provincial Government also spent $1,134,000 in the same district but in other districts, in Burin the Provincial Government spent $73,000.

Now it may all be very well. All those districts need all their roads paved and done, all districts in Newfoundland do,but we have to spread it around more equitably as per population and per traffic, This is what I am calling a system of priorities, not a very complex formula, Mr. Chairman, .1ust a very simple down-to-earth one. ~- ROWE(W.N.): If I can pursue thi~ a little further, Mr. Chairman: What the honourahle minister has said and he tried to cloak in the term common sense,•; what he said in fact is that a system of priorities in each case must really be subjective, a subjective system of priorities.

To the people in LaScie the highest priority is to get the LaScie Highway upgraded and paved,as the honourable member for Green Bay will readily admit. To the people in Brig Bay the highest priority is to get the Northern Peninsula road upgraded and paved and .JM - 2 so on and so on. To the member for Burin and the people of Burin to twelve millionor fifteen million dollars lashed into the Burin Peninsula road by the Federal Government,under a DREE agreement,was of the highest and upmost priority.

Now you can a·ttain some objectivity perhaps if you were looking at the thing with an over-view as a minister,but I would like to ask the minister, he has come out with a general blanket condemnation of 2679

June 20, 1972 Tape 855 the way in which he says a lack of priorities was used in the past years in respect to road development, construction and paving in this province. Now I am not prepared, Sir, to accept such a blanket general statement from the minister. I would like for him to get up and to support such a statement by him, such a ~~neral statement by him,with some concrete example of where the previous administration spent money on road construction or upgrading or paving in a way that violated any objective system of priorities.

Let him name roads which have been done, which have been paved, which have been constructed or upgraded which should not have been done or which should have bowed to the needs of other roads. When he !?ives his answer I hope he bears in mind the fact that if you are going to pet DREE money, for example, for a road it is no good to talk in terms of getting two miles of road paved on the Burin Peninsula. l~e had some say in where DREE money was spent.

We had some sa~r but when it came down to the last analysis we were presented by the Federal Government with this very simple alternative, ''Accept the Burin Peninsula road or do not accent it. If you accept it you get money to ungrade and pave it.

If you do not accept it you do not get the money.'' As far as they were concerned 1 for a variety of reasons,! think based on need and not any political influence,although it did not do any harm to have the Minister of Transport represent a part of that district or all of that district, but on the basis of need I think that the Burin Peninsula road was the road which should have been given the highest priority as far as upgrading and paving.

Unfortunately once you start that, is there any point in saying, ''Well, we will pave five miles this year or one mile this year because that is all that that district deserves or that district should hRve and more money should be spent elsewhere.'' No, Sir, I think in respect of the Burin Peninsula road once the decision had been taken, the commitment made 2680 3

.June 20, 1972 Tape 855 to do that road t hen i t. had to be done, upgrade and pave th e hiJ?hway, just as when the decision was taken to upgrade and pave the Baie Verte road . lt was done within a two year period except for ten mil es on the end towards Baie Verte,which was done five or s1.x yea r s ago.

But a decision ~as taken to do that -road and l would not have been satisfied, the people would not have been satisfied and lam sure the engineers would not have been satis fied· and the contr:actot:s would not have been satisfied if a decision had been taken to sa:v;ins tea d of doinp. thirty miles of that road or twen t y-eip, ht or however much was left they did two miles or five miles becau se t hat is all the money that that particular road dese r ved . l would ask him to bear that particular aspe ct of the situation in mind when he is answerin A the question.

But I woulcl like him to stand 11i,, Sir , and to substantiate his blanket statement that road buildin ~ in this province has proceeden on, I am using my own words now, on a hi~P,ledy-pi~gledy basis ., a basis that showed no priorities 2681 \ JM - 4

June 20,1972 Tape no. 856 'Page 1 - MRW Mr. Rowe (W,N.). and certain roads were done which had less priority than certain roads which were not done. I would like to substantiate it with concrete examples, MR. CROSBIE: Mr, Chairman, before the~ · AN HON, MEMBER: oh: the boss, MR. CROSBIE: I just want to help the House with two examples. These are only very minor examples, Mr. Chairman, of this higgledy-piggledy policy or figgledy-higgledy policy, I drove over the Horse Cove Line two nights ago, I think it is also known as St. Thomas Line. It is in the District of Harbour Main.

You drive along for about a mile on the dirt road and then you strike about 400 or 500 yards of pavement. Then you drive along then for a couple of miles of dirt road and then you strike about 450 yards of pavement. Now it is a completely silly way of attempting to do anything on the Horse Cove Line - higgledy-piggledy, no plan, no design, not properly done. As the hon, Leader of the Opposition mentioned Bennett's Road.

This was all done last year when the election was coming on, It was completely towards political effect, The road I do not think was properly excavated, There is no proper foundation, There is very little crushed stone, It is not going to last very long,in any event. There are a few instances there, Why waste all the time of the House asking about it, We all know - AN HON, MEMBER: (Inaudible), MR. CROSBIE: The minister has about five hundred examples he could give if he wanted to take the time of the House, MR.ROWE (W.N,): Let us hear the priorities. MR. CROSBIE: There are two simple ones, Mr.

Chairman, just within ten miles of St, John's, this lack of policy, this lack of priorities. MR.ROBERTS: Mr, Speaker, I thank the honourable gentlemen for his help. ::! 682

June 20, 1972 Tape no, 856 Page 2 Mr. Roberts. I think he is right. I drive once in a while over Bennett•~ Line, which is not the rich side of Hogan's Pond but it is closer to the rich side than the end on which I live. You go around a great big curve and the payement stops. AN HON. MEMBER: Millionaire's gulch, MR. ROBERTS: Millionaire's gulch. I would not call it millionaire's gulch, I do not live up with the Crosbie's and the O'Dea's. MR. CROSBIE: (Inaudible). _!fR.. ROBERTS: They have done wonders for my piece of property. MR.

CROSBIE: The area depreciated for a year or so after you went there but it is coming back now. MR. ROBERTS: At least there are no rumours that my end of the pond, Mr, Chairman, is being put in under the urban redevelopment scheme as is the other end of the pond 1 for low rental housing. MR. CROSBIE: (Inaudible), MR, ROBERTS: Mr. Chairman, nobody could pretend for a minute that there have not been in this province occasions, examples where roads were paved for reasons other than strictly engineering reasons.

I am not going to be so foolish and I would not think the committee would be so gullible,. as to believe that for a moment. I will go further and predict that this sort of· thing will happen from now on. MR. CROSBIE: I would not be surprised, MR. ROBERTS: No, I am with the minister. I am with the minister. MR. CROSBIE: - laugh every four year's. MR, ROBERTS: I do not particularly think that that is so terrible really, After all the whole purpose of the system of government we have in this province or in the other provinces is that one tries to please people.

I do not think that that is terribly bad, There may be honourable members who feel that it is but I do not really think so, That was not the point that the honourable gentleman raised, the hon. gentleman from White Bay South raised. The minister gets up and he makes a provocative opening 2683

June 20, 19 72 Mr. Roberts Tape no, 856 Page 3 statement. I do not know if he meant it be provocative. I sort of figured that we would come in here this afternoon - I think like every member of the committee, Sir, I look out at th~ nice weather and I fear that if we are not careful we may miss the entire summer. We may be here on the 2nd of July and it will be ~11 over then. The minister gets up and he makes a provocative statement.

I think we really should spend a little time discussing it, I hope we get through the estimates very quickly, Maybe we will, But the minister made a statement and he said, "priorities, we are going to have priorities and there has been no priorities," Well we will have a look at that because I happen to have here copies - if the minister might consult with his deputy minister, the five-year plans and the work from last year. It is a great deal of information which came to me as a minister,which I happen to have with me.

I happen to have a great deal else from the Department of Health which the present minister will be interested in knowing, including thia year's estimates, as they were submitted to the Treasury Board, AN HON. MEMBER: Are they realistic? MR. ROBERTS: Yes, they are realistic. The honourable gentleman would not say that his associate deputy minister is anything eKCept realistic. I did not see them. Indeed, there is a note in them which says that they have been sent ahead 1 in my absence 1to the Treasury Board. They are realistic as always. The health estimates have always been realistic except one sub_ AN HON.

MEMBER:(Inaudible), MR. ROBERTS: I have no doubt they were, They could not be improved. Anyway, Mr. Chairman, the minister gets up and he talks about priorities, fine. My colleague gets up and asks what standards are we going to have for priorities. The minister gets up and aside from saying quite rightly, and I cannot quarrel with this, that he is not really the Minister of Highways, that he has been acting in the absence of one of his colleagues who has been 2684

June 20, 1972 Mr, Roberts Tape no, 856 4 ill, that he is as it were pinch-hitting and so has no long--range responsibilitv. He goes on and then says that really priorities are a subject of matter, so they are. We would have accepted that because that is an accurate and truthful statement. Then the minister tries an inteliectually dishonest argument and I believe it was intellectually dishonest (although I do not believe the minister meant it to be) nf citing the odd districts ·to districts: Placentia West and Burin with the pretense that somehow this showed bad planning.

Well the intellectually dishonest part, I submit Mr. Chairman, I do not think the minister meant - he pretended that one could do as my colleague and friends said, spot little spots on the road, Well I have the list of what was done on that road last year.

There are eight, nine, ten or eleven contracts, all of them OREE, Some of them had been completed and others which had not been completed, as of the date of this information, The same with Placentia West, What the honourable gentleman has been talking about is the Burin Peninsula Highway, something with which Your Honour I am sure is intimately familiar as is the Minister of Justice. What he is talking about is the programme to pave that road, the Government of Canada's money.

We had precious little choice in it, My friend who was ministerially among those responsible (he was the Minister of Community and Social Development at the time) says: Ottawa said,here are what we think should be done. I believe the one up near Hawkes Bay, that special area there - I believe there is some road under contract.

The work was n~t finished last year: the Burin Peninsula Road, the Baie Verte Road and the Bonavista South road running from Clarenville up through Lethbridge and up towards Bonavista, I believe those were the - there may have been one or two others, The Government of Newfoundland was consulted. Officials were consulted, Ministers were consulted. AN HON. MEMBER: Joint planning, MR. ROBERTS: The Joint Planning Committe - the ministers were consulted. 2685

June 20, 1972 Tape no, 856 Mr. Roberts. Yo~1 will probably find, Mr. Chairman, an Order-in-Council saying - that is it, we will accept it. It is the same as on the special areas. We were consulted, We were told by Ottawa that there are eight special areas and we put in some representations and they said, "well there are still eight special areas." AN HON. MEMBER: You do not want any. MR •. ROBERTS: He who pays the piper has a certain right to call the tune, They called the tune. I do think the minister should not get off this sort of stuff.

I am quite willing to believe,and if he wants to table the list district by district, expenditures are inequitable in the sense that in some districts much more is spent than in others, I would also suggest that needs are inequitable. The needs of the Northern Peninsula, as he said, (I am glad to hear him say it) are very great, Until the road was paved around St. Anthony Harbour last year, there was not once inch of pavement north of fleer Lake. It is about 300 miles from Deer Lake to St. Anthony.

The road from Deer Lake to Norris Point needs to be rebuilt and indeed through OREE and through Ottawa now parts of it are being rebuilt I believe. The road from Norris Point up to Brig Bay is a first class gravel road but it is slowly being worn down and if it is not paved within a period of years, it will be gone. Of course, as the minister said 1the road from Brig Bay to St. Anthony, well to call it a road is to do it a kindness. It represented a triumph at the time, ten, fifteen years ago, but it is really hopeless, I have driven over it on occasion. I do not have very much to say for it.

The minister also, Mr. Chairman, (he might just deal with it) said that there have been examples in Newfoundland of roads being pushed through the communities, costing millions of dollars and then 2686

June 20, 1972 Mr, Roberts. Tape no. 856 Page 6 the communities are evacuated. I am not saying that ther~ have not been but I would like to know what they are and where they are. I know of many places that do not have roads yet. I would like to hear his views on priorities there, Are the government going to spend the $50,000 or $100,000 needed to link up the tiny Community of St. Carroll's? It is a relevant thing. I would like to hear his views on priorities there. What priorities have been given to a community like Harbour Deep? What about the Burgeo Road? Will that be going ahead this year?

If so, will it be going to the east or to the west? Will it be coming from Burgeo up to the east to link in with the network of roads that the Power Commission and Price Newfoundland have in there,partially for the phase two of the Bay d'Espoir Pro1ect, White Bear-Grey River phase,and then the Price Company have woods roads in behind Victoria Lake and going up through and on to Buchan's Road,or will it go to the west, through the Long Range Mountains and down near St. George's. These are matters of priority. But, Mr, Chairman - AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible), MR. ROBERTS: The "feds" want it to go east.

Well the people of Burgeo just want it to go out,but I do not know which way they wish it to j!;O. 2687

June 20, 1972 Tape 857 (night) PK - 1 MR. ROBERTS: They wanted to go into the Buchana Road. The road is in to Buchan's now and half the road is built between Buchan's and St. Georges, Bill Keough was very keen on that. It is about half done I think. What is the plan to complete that road? MR. RO~ERTS· So the road will come up almost north from Burgeo, maybe a little to the west, Well that would be an ideal solution, is that what the administration are going to be doing? MR. MOORES: This is basically what Ottawa suggests and the resources people. MR ROBERTS: A road to get into the pulp wood?

It is about fifty miles between Buchans and St George's. Okay, well that is news to me. I do not know if it is news to the people of Burgeo or not but everything I hear from Burgeo is confusing. Well, there is something the hon. gentleman should make some noise about - other things in Burgeo they should not, I agree. But the minister's ability is very real. His humility, that is real too, fortunately. Mr. Chairman, I still think the minister should perhaps come back on his system of priorities. He raised the question. I will not say it is a false idol.

I will not say that but I may say that he has not as yet made out any case for anything other than a subjective judgment. He talks about needs. There are needs but as my friend says, everybody feels his needs a~e greater in a community, and I can find people who think we should swing the Trans-Canada Highway across this Province before we pave the Northern Peninsula Road. Maybe we should but I suggest that in this area of highways I think one can find people who honestly and sincerely believe an infinite variety of points of view.

I am sure the people who live in Bonavista North feel that the road from Gambo, running down to Cape Freels, the Strait Shore, down to Gander Bay and right up to the Trans-Canada at Gander Road should 2688

June 20, 1Q72 Tape 857 (afternoon) PK - 2 :MR, ROBERTS: have priority over all oth ers in this provtnce. It will be paved this year. That is only what the honourable Minister of Municipal Affairs would say. I can find people in Bay D'Espoir who feel that paving the road from Milltown around to St. Alban's is a priority. You know there are all sorts of people who honestly and sincerely and deeply belief and who can make a case. Rut I think the minister should tell us what the factors are that are in the thinking of the administration. ~ecause I suspect, and if I am wrong I hope you will show me so, I suspect, Mr.

Chairman, that we are going to see as we have in the past, we are going to see that in most cases the decisions are subjective and furthermore that from hither on or from here on,as in the past,one will never see the year when each of the forty-one electoral districts in this province has spent on it an equal amount of money,whether it be equal per capita or per car or per community or per road or per anything. AN HON. MEl 1BER : Nor should there be .•••• MR. ROBERTS: And as my friend says that would be most inequitable.

Once the Burin Peninsula Road is paved and I suppose that road•around the loop, I do not think there is a great deal down trere that probablv needs to be paved, There may be some odd projects but nothing significant. Well the honourable gentleman may have to plead the Fifth Amendment, but I would have thought he was too good a lawyer not to know that is the American Constitution, not ours. Anyway, Mr.

Chairman, once that road is done then obviously the Northern Peninsula Road comes to us all and we ~ight have two or three years when if it is $30 million to pave the Northern Peninsula Road, which is an estimate which I was given, I do not know how good it is, but if it is $3~ million, one might see a year when $10 million is spend on the Northern Peninsula Road out of a vote of $20 million, There are three districts on the Northern Peninsula at present 2689 .... , , .

June 20, 1972 Tape 857 (afternoon) PK - 3 MR. ROBERTS: St. Barbe North , White Bay North and St. Barbe South. So I think the minister perhaps should enlarge on this a little. He was the one who raised it , Sir, in his opening statement and I think it is an important one, Ferhaps if he could come back and tell us a little more about some of the objective standards as opposed to the subjective. I am intrigued, I would genuinely like to know at least one example of a community in which a road was buil~ costing millions of dollars, to quote the minister, that was: then abandoned by the people. MR. HICKMAN: Mr.

Chairman, I would just like to have a word about the Burin Peninsula High~••ay and to express a great deal of gratitude and all that s ort of thing. But the Burin Peninsula Highway is probably the best example, and I speak of this not in criticism of the past but a very good example where priority did get out of whack. The Burin Peninsula Highway was built and completed by the Commission of Governroent,It was their last act. Sir Gordon MacDonald made a speech in the pulpit down in Grand Bank and said; " you know, I promised you this highway''and he built it.

It was finished the year we went into Confederation or the spring thereafter, I have forgotten which, and it remains that way until 1967 or 1968. In the meantime, the Atlantic Development Board did a study and they came to the conclusion that there was a big priority in that area, That was the building of a new highway from Lawn to Grand Bank, indeed contracts were called for that, if honourable members will recal1 1 in 1966.

The tender, as I recall it, was awarded to Curren and Briggs, but Atlantic Development Board was a fifty-fifty deal, At that time the province was compelled to finance some of their larger highway construction programmes,and the Atlantic Development Board lost interest in becoming a party to a deal where our fifty percent was going to have to be paid over a five or ten year period 1 and it disappeared and that was the last we heard 2690

June 20, 1972 Tape 857 (afternoon) PK - 4 MR , HICKM'AN: of it, MR. ROBERTS: Inaudible. MR. HICKMAN: Well whatever it was, if we could find our money, they would have gone along with it, tlut since then it disappeared.

Now the priority is still there, and in deciding on - but may I get back to the Burin Peninsula Highway, during that period from 1949 to 1967 the Burin Peninsula Highway,with the exception of a stretch of road connecting Burin and Marystown and Grand Bank and Fortune,was virtually untouched, It was the trunk highway servicing not only the Burin Peninsula but Fortune Bay and at that time the Island, you know, the terminal for Fortune Bay. A little work was done up around Harbour Mille and St. Bernards.

The main trunk highway was not touched and sometimes when I used to have to drive over it, not as fast as I have to now,because I had more time on my hands. Whilst that was going on,around the province we would see work going on around the Conception Bay Area, Now I agree with every member that they need the road out through Hibbs Hole and they need the road down around Trinity Nortl. and work was needed in Placentia East. It was done when Mr. Power was the ~~inister of Highways. All these could make quite a good case for us.

But it was very difficult for us on the Burin Peninsula to accept the fact that a trunk highway to serve 30,000 people in an area of pretty well full employment should not have been further up the list of priorities. Now there in my opinion is a very good example where I am not blaming anyone, but you asked for an example as to where the priorities certainly were not adjusted the way they should have been, I give full marks to the federal government for coming along and rescuing us with the Burin Peninsula Highway. But there is an example where in my opinion , you know, there was not a priority treatment given.

The same applies and will apply in the next two or th~ee years. I might as well mention my district while I am on my feet, In the area 2691 c·

June 20, 1972 Tape 857 (afternoon) Pk - 5 MR. lltCJ<MAN: between St. Lawrence and Fo-rtune1 the re you have communiti es who have decided not to -resettle. In these communities you have people who are gainfully employed in Fortune, Grand Dank and i n the mines at St. Lawrence, where they have to commute daily, you have t he people in Lawn in particular with a very close association education-wise with St. Lm.n:ence. You have Lourdes Cove, Point May, Poiot aux Gaul sending all their child-ren to Lamaline. These people say they are not going to move. Jlut they say our contribution to the overall economy of the Burin Peninsula is just as necessary, is just as great as a person living in 2692

June 20, 1972 Tape 858 Page 1. Grand Rank or Fortune or Marvstown or Burin or St. Lawrence. \That I sav is whatever the formula the honourable mlnister comes up with in arrivlng at priorities that obviously traffic volume, no province can ignore traffic volume, it ls relevant. Economic needs are relevant. The need to look after people who have decided that they do not want to resettle,and this is one public service. Surely these are three elements and there may be more that have to he taken into :iccount when one is arri.ving at the priorities.

I am told that in one province, I am not suggesting that we do it here, but I think it is in the. Province of Saskatchewan where they have a highways commission that works almost like the Board of Commissioners of Public Ptiltties. The Hlghwavs Commission. Saskat, 1,ewan is the one r am thinkiic[~ of, I am sure. It is one of the prairie provinces where all these studies that I am talking about are presented to that Board. They in turn recommend to the Minister of Pighways a five year plan.

I hP.lieve that if people in any nrovince,including Newfoundland,can see a five year plan so long as you keep your commi tmen.t on the fj rst year 1 an area mav be for the third year, if they see that the first years commitment is not kent,then ohviously they become annoyed and say;'well, it is only a promise.

" But if a plan is realistic and can be - the highuays can be naved and upgraded, whatever else is necessary over a period of five years,with an eye on need as much as anythinir else,then I believe the people of this province will accept.What an~ers them is when they suddenly see, I am inclined to agree with the Minister of Finance on th;! s, that there are particular times in our history_ .when there is a little more pavement whacked down here and there, I came out of a place in Epworth last year, I stood by a fish flake, I really had to move to get out of the way of the paving machine.

The rocky road to Epworth is no longer rocky. Aeain there is a great deal of ~ratitudewhich was 2693

June 20, 1972. Tape 858 Page 2. very pronounced and very warm in the last election. I th~nk those who are responsible for providing it. But, I am convinced that if we can give a realistic plan and then meet it, not to make a plan this year and say in ,1973 we are going to nave 100 miles of road,and only do twenty. This will not satisfy any one, particularly those who are at the far-end. If we can do that then I helieve the people of this province will be satisfied that they are going to see a network of highways that will bring them into this century. Paved roads are no longer a luxury.

We are not asking for anything that little Prince Edward Island has not or Nova Scotia has not had for forty years. I am intrigued by the announce- ment of the honourable minister that we as members will get an opportunity to indicate our priorities. If honour able member will recall that all forty-two of us had that same opportunity in 1967.

It is an anagonizing decision to have to make when you have to look at your own district and say, "do you do one area before you do anotheri'"At the same time I believe members have a great deal to contribute when it comes to enlightening any such committee as to where they believe,in their area, preference must be gj_ven. the priorities or the :'-IR.W.RO'WE: Mr. Chairman, I would like to clarify something which I said earlier. What I asked the minister to do,in response to his statement that apparently priorities were not used in the past.

I asked him to g:l.ve some examples of roads which have been constructed or upgraded or paved which should not have been done but should have waited in deference to other roads that should have been done, It would be interested to hear him on that. But on the other point, Sir, priorities generally,! believe the minister of Justice today,in his few remarks,has just shown how valid is the cas e which we have been presenting from this side of the House, with regard to the subjective 2694

June 20, 1972. Tape 858 Page 3. nature of priorities. This honourable minister talks about how high up on the list of priorities the Burin Peninsula road should have been during the nearly twenty years from 1949 to 1967 or thereabouts. But durcng that same period of time, Sir, you take an area like the Baie Verte Peninsula up on the north:east coast of Newfoundland.

That area had no roads whatsoever no roads at all until somet-fmP in the late fifties, ,-,hen they had the good fortune of having the member for White Bay South being the minister of Highways at one and the same time, Undoubtedly he used his office to the fullest possible extent. One cabinet minister accompanied that particular minister on a plane trip over the Baie Verte peninsula some two years after the member for White Bay South became the minister of Highways.

When the other cabinet minister looked out the window of the plane over the Baie Verte peninsula he asked the minister who was with him, whether they were then passing over Manhattan Island or Hong Kong or where, Lecause there was such a road network below them.

In any event, Sir, while the high priority of the Burin Peninsula road was waiting, the high priority being upgrading and paving or some reconstruction of ~hat road, the other high priority probably, certainly higher in my estimation than the estimation of the people who live there, the high priority was to get some road of any kind to serve, say,15,000 people on the Baie Verte Peninsula. So, you know, again we must come back to this statement that it is really subjective.

When you have great needs,when you have tremendous,overwhelmning, over­ powering needs, wben roads have to be constructed or paved everywhere in a province,it is very difficult to talk about priorities Lecause anywhere you build the road or pave the road is greatly needed. Perhaps it is hard to convince anyone that one particular road is more greatly needed than others. When you are talking about in most cases comparable 2695 ·-...

June 20, 1972. Tape 85S Page 4. population segments on the Great Northern peninsula 1 the Baie Verte P,eninsula the Burin P !?ninsula, the Bonavista peninsula all these things are extremely hard to talk ahout in terms of objective priorities. The roads need to be done and obviously we will try to get them done as soon as possible. But to take one area over another area is often not priorities but simply inequitable, MR.NEARY: Mr.

Chairman, before the minister stands in his place to reply to these questi.ons that have been asked by my colleagues, the Leader of the Opposition, the member for White Bay South, I wonder if the honourable Minister will include in his answers just what the administration's position is on the Trans-Labrador Highway, Honourable members will recall 1 they sat in this House for the last two or three years, my honourable colleague from Labrador North I do not think was here at the time.

Some of the members who are now part of the new administration ranted and raved about the Tirans-Labrador Highway, Some of the honourable members felt that the road should be built from Labrador West toward:. the Quebec Border while others felt that the road should have been built eastward towards Happy Valley, Eventually, Sir, a road was constructed between Churchill Falls and Happy Valley, Partially through the cooperation of Brinco and by the former admi.nis tra tion.

Now, Sir, those of us who were in Churchill Falls recently might have heard the people down there express grave concern about that stretch of road between Churchill Falls and Happy Valley, Apparently somebody flew over the road recently in a helicopter,to discover that theue has been a number of washouts, some of the bridges are washed away, the road is in a very bad state of disrepair. The people in the area, the people that at least I talked to ,are wondering if that road is going to he open this year. Mr. Chairman, I want to remind the honourable M!.nister of Highways that about three or four years ago, 2696

June 20, 1972 Tape No. 859 NC - 1 MR. NEARY: when the House of Commons Standing Committee on Transportation and Communication visited the province, I had the pleasure at the time to present a ~rief on behalf of the Provincial Government spelling out a ten year programme to the House of Commons Standing Committee on Transportation which included a trans-Labrador Highway. Therefore that became the policy of the former administration. I am wondering now, Sir, what the policy of the new administ ~ation is regarding that road.and if that road between Churchill Falls and Happy Valley will be opened this year.

I would also like to, while I am on my feet, Mr.

Chairman, and seeing that the honourable Premier is in the House this afternoon, if he would reward us with a few pearls of wisdom and give us a progress report on how the committee is doing on taking a look at the ferry service in the province, because the hon. members will remember the honourable Premier in two elections and in anwer to a question that I asked in the House a couple of days after opening day, about the government's promise that we would have free ferry transportation in Newfoundland, thaL the ferry service become an extension of the highways system.

I wonder if the honourable Premier could give us a progress report on the committee's work and tell us when he expects the committee to complete their report and make recommendations to the government. I would also like for the minister, Mr. Chairman, when he stands on his feet, if he would tell the people of Brown's Arm if their road is going to be paved this year. I think they would probably be anxious to know just where they stand regarding the minister's totem pole of priorities. So I would like to hear the minister's views on t1l1eae matters. 2697 . .. ,

.June 20, 1972 Tape No, 859 NC - 2 MR. WINSOR: Mr. Speaker, before the minister gets back to answering questions which he has been confronted with, I was quite intrigued to learn that $3 million was spent on the highroads in Fogo District. Would the hon, minister indicate whether that money was spent, or a great portion of it, on the Gander Bay Road, If so, then of course .there is quite a distance there before you even reach the first settlement in the Fogo District.

I know there was a contract let for upgrading and paving on Fogo Island but that did not take place last year, v·ery little work was done on that road last year and work I feel is going ahead right now. But perhaps the minister would indicate if the greater part of that $3 million was not spent on the Gander Bay 11.oad. Now Sir, how can you determine priority, In the District of Fogo, I would say every community would want pavement through that community.

People today can tolerate the dusty road from point "a" to point "b", but when you have to eat, sleep and breathe twenty-four hours a day with dust that is blinding and,almost as dense as fog, then, Sir, you would have to ask yourself the question; where should the priority lie? To me I would say through the community, because it is unbearable in most of the communities that I have travelled through in Fogo District, ust a few days ago or a week or so ago we had an accident there on that Gander Bay Road which I was told was caused by the severely dusty road 1and three lives were lost.

So that I think will be corrected when that stretch of road is completed. But what I am concerned with, Sir, is the paving through the community. The previous government did have a programme of upgrading, constructing and paving roads through certain communities or through communities, especially where there was a community council, That was dropped but I think it was picked up again last year or the year before. I am not too sure. 2698

June 20, 1972 Tape No. 859 NC - 3 MR. WINSOR: This is one case or one area of priorities I think that should be given very serious thought, I come back to my original question when the minister speaks he may indicate exactly how much of that money was spent outside of the Gander Bay Road in the Fogo District. MR, WOODWARD: I say it is very unfortunate and maybe a grave injustice on the part of the government that they saw fit last year to go to the polls in March when they were unable to get the paving machine working, No doubt we would have had more pavement,so I guess this will make history.

We have one election that we did not get any paving done. AN HON, MEMBRR: Snow plows, MR. WOODWARD: Well we did have snow plows to some degree but it is very unfortunate, and I have no doubt that we would have had pavement in the event that the weather was suitable and we could have gotten the paving machines working. But very briefly, Mr.

Chairman, and not wanting to prolong those estimates, I was pleased to hear ,over the weekend, and I do not know if the Acting Minister of Highways is famjliar with it1 that we had the honour of having the hon, Don Jamieson, the Minister of Transport, into Goose Bay - Happy Valley, along with the Prime Minister,for a brief visit on a Friday afternoon, During the gathering at !lappy Valley, it was mentioned by the minister that it is not normal for the Department of Transport to get involved in the building of highways but he did indicate that they were taking a very serious look at the trans-Labrador Highway with the intentions of participating in the cost of building such a highways through Labrador.

I think this is very enlightening news and I trust that the hon. minister will see fit to follow up and see what part the Department of Transport or the Federal Government is prepared to play in the construction of that 2699 . .....

June 20, 19 72 Tape No. 059 NC: - 4 NR . WOODWARD: highway. There is no doubt, Mr. Chairman, when we think in terms of a grea t expendj ture, we no dout>t fe"el that it is Roinr. t:o be very costly, che trans-Labrador Highway. Jlut indeed, Sir, when you think in terms of the stateme nts that have been made "MR. ROBERTS: No' go ahead. Do you want me to qui t? !:!_R_~400~: When you think i n terms o f the statements tha t were made last weekend during that great develo pment or the open:l.nr- of that r,reat development of Churchill Falls. AN I-ION. }®IDER: Oh well we have r,ot savoury J-ohn • .• MR.

WOODWARD: Thank ycu very much. When you think in terms of announcements 1 am worthy of mentioning them and I am sure the Minis ter of Mines and Resources ,who is not in his seat now,hearing the federal minister mention j.n Wabush the potential or the estimated poten tial of some 18,000,000 tons of iron ore being shipped from l.ab"t"ador West come 1980, I think this is sig nificant and it shows the need that we w:ill have mor e people goj_ng into that portion of Labrador . I am surf' the 2700

June 20, 1972 Tape 860 honourable member for Labrador West will agree with the exransions that are takinr place there, So I am asking the Minister of Highways what priorities have been set for a trans-Labrador Highway and what part will his department play into the construction or participation . in that particular highway? When you look at this year's estimates and you see two to three billion dollars for new construction I I nm verv much afraid that that cannot go very far in- the construction or playing a part.

But when we think in terms of the amount of money that was spent last year and possibly the amount of money that is going to be spent in the next four to five years,to include the Provincial Budget, to include the money that is coming from DREE, I hope that he will see fit, Sir, that they do not take all this DREE money and apply it to the island portion of Newfoundland but also do apply some of that money to speed or hasten the construction on that highway in Labrador. We have,as you have seen and heard,an expenditure in the whole of Labrador last year.and granted it was an election year.

We spent $248,000 in the North, South and the West. I am very !'luch afraid that there is more money spent in smaller communities here in the province merely as a paving programme than the total expenditure of the department's estimates for the whole of Labrador. I suppose you could say it is discrimination in a sense and I am sure that if I said it was discrimination that a lot my people,especially in mv district and I am sure in the South as well,would fully agree with me.

But when you think in terms of priorities, Sir, and if you are goinf to divide on an equitable basis the amount of monies being spent and you think in terms of you are going to spend an equal amount in each district each year,from the Provincial Budget,! am very much afraid if you use that formula that we are going to be a long time before we get a trans-Labrador highway. t701 .TN - 1 ....

June 20, 1972 'l'R['f> 860 JM - 2 So I would like for you to take this in mind, Mr. Chairman, and in the event that there is DREE funds I would like to see,and I welcome the stetement made by the honourable minister in this House that he is going to give the members of the House of Assembly a chance to set their priorities and send them in to his department. I am sure I will i:,lay my

part 1 as I am snre the other members for Labrador will do the same, So I think that in the event that there areDREE funds coming, Sir, although I have been led to believe that Labrador is now not a special area,it has been relieved of that status, Labrador does not stay as a special area for nREE,I would like to see that whoever is acting on beh~lf of this government on that special status. see that Labrador is put back ~ ~J~Qg: Before the honourable member takes his seat 1 would he indicate exactly how he would like to see that road go across Labrador?

Would he like to see it come toward Forteau with an 11np,rade an~ a first class ferry service to the island,rather than going West through to Churchill Falls and then to Labrador City? There are some differences of opinion. MR. WOODWARD : Mr. Chairman, I am sure that the honourable member -------- - for Labrador West has said that his constituents or the people of his area would like to see the road first extended down through from Labrador West into ()uebec.

I would like to express the feeling of the people in both the North and the South of Labrador that our people in the Goose Bay--Happy Valley Area would like to see a road extending down to the Straits of Belle Isle in the Forteau Area as well as the people in the Southern Labrador would like to see a road extending from their area to the C".oose Bay-Happy Valley Area. So there is no douht as to what direction we would like to see the road go and there is no doubt a:: to what direction I feel is most beneficial to the people of this province. I think there must be some form of physical link 2702

June 20, 1972 Tape 860 JM - 3 with this island 1and if we have to extend a road from the west down to Quebec then most of the people, I suppose, wi.11 travel in that direction, which I feel will be of very little benefit to them.

Now I am not saying that we should not have a road going into Quebec for the people of the West,but I feel that the priority should be set so that the people who have moved from this island and taken up residence or settled in Labrador have th-e opportunity to travel hack to this island,not only during the smnmertime when you can get the odd ship to take a car in and brinp: your family in or to travel by air,but there should be some physical link when you can leave your place of residence in Happy Valley-Goose Bay and travel to this island, Sir, maybe nine months of the year or ten months of the year, and hopefully,when their technology and the ice probes are fully developed,then we will do it on a full time basis, twelve months of a year.

So the road from Goose Ray to Churchill Falls is already bulled throup:h. It is not a passable road. It is not a road that you can use heavy vehicles on at the present time. I do not know what the status is now but last year,as I can understand, the province was supposed to take ov~r this road and to maintain it to a degree. I do not know if the minister can explain that when he speaks. But there is a road from Goose Bay to Churchill Falls and we would like to see the road from Goose Bay continued down to the Straits of Belle Isle. They do have a link to that road from the West.

They can use the railroad down to Esker and the road in turn is open from Esker to Churchill Falls. People from the West can get off at that point, at the rail junction at Esker,and travel into Goose Bay and in the event that they have to, Sir, they could have travelled, in the event that the road is continued all the way down they can travel down to Labrador South,in the Forteau Area1 and then possibly a good 2703

,, . June 20, 1972 Tape 860 ferry service across the Straits of Belle Isle,which will give us a physical service link with this part of the province. Those are the things that we want to see and there is no doubt as the development goes, I am sure that the honourable Premier, seeing and talking to the development officials in Churchill Falls over the weekend,can see a very bright picture for that part of our province called Labrador.

No doubt, Sir, you will see a number of our young people moving into those areas and I feel that you,no more than I do,would want to keep those people in isolation for twenty more years before they can travel back to this province. MR. ROUSSEAU: Mr. Chairman, first of all I would like to say that I was extremely encouraged,as I am sure all the residents of Labrador were,with the remarks made by the honourable Don Jamieson during his recent visit to Labrador. We were also pleased to hear the .TM - 4 encouraging remarks of Mr. Trudeau on the possibility of a communications link up across Labrador.

I Mipht mention that~ have said on occasion, and I would like to clarify it now,that the road from Labrador West to Quebec is desireable for the people of Labrador West.

But insofar as we are concerned with our fellow residents in the Eastern portion of Labrador,there is no doubt that we would like to also see a road go from Labrador Gity-Wabush through Churchill, through Goose !lay and down through the Straits, The point that I brought up on a television programme was that should it not be able to be completed in one fell swoop as I suggested, then I would like to see the inj tial thrust bein!!; put into the road from Labrador West to Quebec, with a possible ferry being used at Goose Bay only in the event that the road cannot be completed at one time.

If the road could be completed at one time,we would,as much as our friends in Labrador East,like also to be able to travel to the island. I think during the weekend some of us had the

June 20, 1972 Tape 86(1 J:t,f - 5 opportunity to drive from Churchill Falls to the airport ai;,I probably we were aware of the fact that we were driving then on the trans-Labrador highway, that part of it which goes from Churchill Falls to Esker, and I think those of us who did have the opportunity to drive along that road are aware of the fact that it is a fairly good road, 2705

June 20, 1972 Tape Nu, 861 NC - 1 MR. ROUSSEAU: especially for this time of the year,after the hard winter we have had. As I suggested on <'In earlier occasion, the Esker land on which this road is built is excellent drainage land and the road has a very good base. As the honourable Member for Labrador North mentioned, the ·road from Churchill to Goose Bay is a tote road and iJ commonly referred to as "bull" through.

But I rise to mention something I heard and some interesting information over the weekend in connection with the James Bay Power project, Apparently it would be possible very soon to travel from Mount Wright to Gaimon in the Province of Quebec. Mount Wright is some fourteen miles from Labrador City - Wabush, that would be north to south from, actually it would be southwest to Gagnon, the old Quebec Cartier Mining Area where they are now moving up to Mount Wright with the new deposit there.

Now apparently from the north shore, the Baie Comeau Area, there is also a road, and not a very good road,into what they call Menihek Five, which is one of the stations on the James Bay project.

As I am led to understand, and that would leave anywhere from fifty to seventy-five miles,depending on contours, to connect Mount Wright with the North Shore of Quebec, So why I am suggesting the thrust to Labrador west, I am not trying to take advantage of Eastern Labrador, because I think that we all have to be realistic, and I am sure my hon. friend from Labrador North is, that the cost is, we are talking in excess of $100,000,000 at least, and what I was suggesting,in recognizing the fact that we would like to see it go to Quebec from Labrador West, was that a lot of the preparation has been completed already and that the cost to go from Labrador West to Quebec would be less than the cost to go from Goose Bay to the southern part of Labrador and on to the island. 2706

June 23, 1972 Tape No, 861 NC- 2 MR. ROUSSEAU: Let me say here and now,I am in full support 0f the road system hook up between Labrador West through Churchill Fall through Goose Bay and down through Southern Labrador, into the island part of the province, I am sure all the residents of Labrador West are. MR. THOMS: Mr. Chairman, there are a few comments I would like to make on these estimates. Apparently it seems every minister gets up here and his opening remarks are that the reason for the cut in his estimates, apparently is because of the mess that was left from the previous administration. Now, Mr.

Chairman, I fail to accept this as a reason. I fail to accept this as an excuse for estimates in these departments being reduced, In Newfoundland and Labrador, never before, or at least never before in the past fifteen years, have we had any system of highways, local roads, whatsoever, and it is only this last fifteen years that we have come into this century.

The road construction there has been carried out is definitely inadequate, most inadequate, But it is only a foundation for a highway system of roads, by•roads and bridges that can bring us into this century, that can put us even in sight of putting us on a par with the rest of North America. Now I am very 'disappointed indeed to see the reduction of $ 19,7 million listed under highway construction.

I am quite sure every resident of my district will be disappointed, unless inbedded in these estimates we· get a fair portion of highway construction, new construction and bridges, I ask the minister now if he could supply to this committee,a breakdown of items 1711-01, 1711-02 and 1711-08. The minister was absent so I will repeat that again. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. THOMS: Good, you have heard it.

Because I note that in my district, which is the only district that is bordering on the Trans-Canada,that we did receive part of the upgrading and paving of the Trans-Canada a few years ago 1but we are the only district where we have a

section of the 2707

.lunP ?3, 1972 Tape No. 861 NC - J MR. THOMS: Tans-Canada which is incomplete, It was not upgraded and paved,and I speak of the

section from Goose Pond to the Terra Nova National Park boundary, I am very disappointed, very disappointed indeed to see that the amount in this estimate for the Trans-Canada is ni1 1 and I am wondering if the minister in his remarks, ·when he rises, if he could tell us if there is any agreement entered upon between the provincial and federal governmennas to this need to reconstruct and pave this portion of the Trans.Canada Highway which was not done under the old agreement. In my own district, we do have some pavement. We have a lot of gravel, a lot of dirty gravel.

I would suggest to the minister now, and put forward to him a suggestion which I hope he will act upon and in so doing I fully support the words of my colleague, the honourable Me~ber for Fogo1 and the suggestion is that this government pave all the roads that pass through all the towns and communities, that this government pave all the roads that pass through all the towns communities and villages, Bonavista North in particular. I notice that all the roads in the City of Labrador West and Wabush are paved.

Maybe this is not a 100 per cent government project, but at least they are paved no matter how you receive them. Mr. Chairman, time and time and time again our people have complained about the dirty, dusty roads. They are happy about having a road, quite happy, quite glad that they have roads, because in the past we have never had a road. But there is no woman, for example, in the towns from Hare Bay to Parsons Point, Pound Cove, Newtown to Cape Freels, Burnside, St.

Chad's, St, Brendan's and Greenspond, there is no person who lives on the main road can hang out their washing without having it muddied up, dirtied up_ in'some way by a passing car, especially if there is a breeze of wind blowing, This could be rectified. I believe 2708

.June 23, 1972 Tape No , 861 NC - 4 MR. THOMS: if the present administrat:f,on would take it upon itse1f to lay down a programme this year and maybe run it over to next year,to pave all the roads · in all our colliDl.unities, I am sure that our people would appreciate it and I am sure it would _ indeed be a blessed thing. While I believe it is necessary to pave our byways and highways, but not such a priority as to pave · the ~oads in our communities. We do not mind driving out through the country• drivi:ng over a dirt -road.

We can put up with that foT another couple of years, but I am sure all the mothers, all the women of ou-r province are very irritated when they hang out t~eir wash and have to puil it back in again because of a dusty road. Not only our mothers and oar women but any of our people who are t709 \

June 20, 1972 Tape no. 862 Page 1 - MRW Mr. Thoms using these roads to walk on within our towns and almost find it impossible to navigate themselves on some dry days and especially dry windy days, to navigate themselves along the road. Many an accident and many a death has been caused because of the unpaved roads in our communities, which really stir up a dust problem. Some of our towns turn into dust storms, when you get a speeding car on a dry windy day. I certainly hope and trust that the minister, Mr.

Chairman, will take it upon himself to see if he can come up with some kind of a one-year or two-year programme to alleviate this situation in our towns and conDnunities. The minister, Mr, Chairman, spoke of priorities, divvying up the money for highways in some kind of a priority system. I am not quite sure how he intends to do this. One thing for sure I would not like to see him do and that is to divvy up the money for population. If such a system were implemented, I am afraid that it would be a long time before such places as Labrador, Bonavista North, St.

Barbe, Fortune Bay, receives an adequate system of roads, I do not believe it can be done on a population basis nor do I believe it can be done on any present system of priorities. I believe it should be done where the need exists. Now wherever that is, Mr, Chairman, is for the minister to find out. He is the man who is to spend this money and I am sure he is capable of finding out where the need exists. Of course, may I suggest to him that in Bonavista North we have a very good need, We have a large need, an urgent need, Two years ago we did receive ten miles of pavement in one

section of our district. We received another five miles in the southern

section of our district which also went over into the District of Bonavista South. We are quite happy with this, It is good. It puts us into this century, The thing is we need more. More is needed. It is very discouraging to see that maybe this yeat we will not get the 2710

June 20, 1972 Mr. Thoms Tape no. 862 Page 2 pavement that was promised us prior to March 24, by the then Minister of Highways, I am very sad to see that he has not yet taken a seat in this House because maybe if he had (I understand he is the fighting type of man) he would not have put up with such drastic cuts within the estimates. Mr. Chairman, I am not quite sure what the Minister of Highways was saying when he was talking about the'Burin Peninsula road. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible), MR. THOMS: Indeed I will talk about your road, Sir. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR.

THOMS: I am glad you are proud of it, We all should be proud of it. AN HON.MEMBER: (Inaudible), MR. THOMS: Yes, as long as you got a good federal member you will get it. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR, THOMS: Mr, Chairman, there seems ~o be some sort of deception being created here because the Burin Peninsula Road is not only for the people of Placentia West, it is for the people of the Burin District; it is for the people of Fortune District and in a real sense it is for the people of all the districts in Newfoundland. I cannot see how you can say it is spent just for that district.

It is not spent just for that district. It is spent for all Newfoundland. I cannot see how you can come up with a figure and say that there was $3 million spent in one district and only $300,000 spent in another, I cannot see how that is relevant to the estimates. There may be need in a certain district, within the boundaries of a certain district, to spend vast sums· of money on one particular road, But spending these vast sums of money, Mr. Chairman, benefits not only the residents of that district, it benefits all the people of Newfoundland. _MR. GILLETT: Mr.

Chairman, we have spent quite a lot of time since the hon. the Minister of Highways (Acting) made his announcement 2711

June 20, 1972 Mr. Gillett. Tape no. 862 on his intentions.

I believe, if I understand him correctly, the Page 3 intentions of his department or governmentJshould I say, is to ask each and every M,H.A. to present the needs of his district and in particular the priorities with regard to highways, Now so far we have not stopped long enough to have the hon: Minister of Highways give us those priorities, I think once he gives us those priorities, we can get to work and do something, When he gives the priorities, I assume that he will have in those priorities a road which is considered presently to be dangerous, as has already been mentioned in some of the petitions for school busses.

That should be a priority, Whether it should be a road that is winding but perhaps not that dangerous - however, the priorities which he or his government have in mind, once the minister can give us these priorities, I think each and every member will get down to work and do his homework and present his list to the Minister of Highways and follow it up from then on, Let us hear from the minister. MR. MAYNARD: Mr. Chairman, I believe the hon. member from Twillingate has the thing somewhat in reverse. My statement was that we were going to ask each M,H,A. to establish their priorities in their district.

Obviously, if we are going to gather this information, it is not up to me or any other Minister of Highways or any official of this government to first tell each M,H,A. what they need, on the other hand, ask each M,H.A. what they want.

What we are talking about is a simple matter of each member of the House of Assembly,who represents a district of this province, establishing in their own minds and by talking to their own people and knowing the district they represent, what they would consider their priorities in their district, whether they would consider community roads first, whether they would consider main arteries first,to various communities, whether they would consider upgrading and paving at some later date or all done at one time in certain areas. These are the things 2712

June 20, 19 72 Tape no, 862 Page 4 Mr, Maynard which we want from the H,H,A,'s and once we get this, it will help us in the Department of Highways and government to establish a system of priorities working within the budgetary limits. It is not our intention to first tell each H,H,A, what they need in their districts. We have to gather th~ information from each one of these M.H.A.'s and then 1based on that information, we would hope to come up with an obviously sensiBle long-range plan for highway _development in the province.

I am sure that the hon, member for Labrador North is going to come up with a different set of priorities than probably the hon. member for St, John's Centre who probably does not have any priorities, AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible), MR, MAYNARD: Well, okay, that is what I said. He has no priorities. AN HON. MEMBER: Why do you not listen once in a while? _MR. MAYNARD: There are just a couple of comments and then I will delay the rest of my remarks or answers to questions until we get into the various subheads, The hon. member for White Bay North said that in effect there was no way of 2713

June 20, 1972. Tape 863. Page 1. establishing priorities,! think. He also mentioned the Burin Peninsula road. I have no quarrel at all 1 Mr. Chairman, with the Burin Peninsula being paved. All I was doing was asking the question and I answered it to the amount of money that was spent and so~e comparison figures to show or to say that there was not a sufficient amount of planning. I have no quarrel with any road in this province being upgraded and paved. I think they should all be done immediately. We do not have the money to do it. Therefore I think we should establish a system of priorities.

When nobody on the opposite side of the House seems to think that a system of priorities can be established. The honour­ able member for Bonavista North says in one breath there is no priority system can be established in his estimation but just a minute before that he was telling me of the priorities in his district, paving the roads through the community. Now, obviously somewhere along the line they have missed the point. However, the Tram;-Labrador Highway I am not prepared at this time 1 Mr. Chairman, to state a government policy regarding the Trans - Labrador Highway. That is all I can say on it.

I will leave the other comments until we come to the various subheads. MR.GILLETT: Mr. Chairman, perhaps I did misunderstand the honourable minister of Highways (Acting) He said that the priorities were going to be based on several different things 1per capita, per the number of automobiles using it so on and so forth. This is why I asked him to ~ive us his list of priorities because you could have a very dangerous road not too much heavy traffic going over it but nevertheless extremely dangerous. Is this or is it not a priority?

As far as the gravel roads and paved roads are concerned 1he does not have to ask me how much road is not paved in Twillingate or how much is paved in my district, because he knows every inch of it. So there is no point in asking me that at all. Any road that is not paved is a priority. But which is the top priority? This is what I want, to know. 2714

June 20, 1972. Tape 863. Page 2. MR.CHEESEMAN: Mr. Chairman, jus.t a moment of this committee's time. because I have sat here and listened to priorities, priorities in terms of paving roads, priorities in terms of linking up roads. I just want to go on r~cord as saying that in the District of Hermitage which I represent we are looking for the luxury of roads, not whether they are paved or where they are joined up.

So lest anybody should be under any illusions as to how any particular part of this province was treated or how it should be treated 1 in the district of Hermitage the communities of Francois, Mccallum, Parson~ Harbour, Gaultois, Pass Island and Furby's Cove have no roads, no roads period, You cannot pave the roads through the community,they are not there. So as far as I am concerned number one priority is to get a road and figure what to do with it afterwards. The second point that I would like to make is in the entire district of Hermitage there is not on~ mile of pavement.

The district of Hermitage has all of the ~roblems that any other district in this province has. Harbour Breton, Hermitage, Bay D'Espoir, St. A~ban's,Milltown, these areas all have the same prQblems. The closest bit of pavement to any community in the district of Hermitage is some fifty to sixty miles away. So, I am all for priorities and I would like to see the priorities come down tomorrow morning,then I would say Hermitage will do all right. So, let us get on a system of priorities as fast as we can so that my district as well as everybody else's district in this province can be treated fairly. MR.EVANS: Mr.

Chairman, talking about pavement as the member from Hermitage said, we have not even got the roads either yet. We have been neglected for the past twenty- three years, We were given special priorities then, we were the people who paid for all the roads that were built in Newfoundland. If we collect the interest on the money we loaned we will not settle for pavement we will have On motion subhead 1701 carried. gold brick. 2715 ...... r:

June 20, 1972. Tape 863. On motion subhead 1702 carried. Subhead 1703: Page 3. MR.WOODWARD: Mr. Chairman, on 1703-04, Motor License plates. Maybe this is the time that I feel that throughout this province there has been a lot of problems and especially in the Labrador area as far as licensing of vehicles is concerned. We have to wait for a period of up to as high as a month in order to get a set of license plates.

I was wondering if the minister in his wisdom will see fit to establish maybe offices or use some other department of government whereby thert can be some temporary offices set up or pemanent offices for that matter so that people can get license plates instead of sending applications down to St. John's,going through the motor registration department and having people delayed or waiting for periods as high as a month in order to get a vehicle licensed. si'nilar cases throughout the province. I am sure there are MR.MAYNARD: Mr.

Chaiman, it was my understanding,talking with my officials,that temporary offices had been set up in the Labrador Area, espe~ially Goose Bay. The last few years in any case,we could be wrong on this, but I am sure if we are wrong and there has not been temporary offices set up1 something that I am sure can be arranged. MR. WOODWARD: If I may,Mr, Chairman, there 'are temporary offices set up for a period of time, like two days, where you come in and do the mass of licensing.

Where we have a transient population, where we have people who are moving in and out of the area all the time 1 there is a great demand for a change of licenses, people moving in from other provinces into La1rador. I am sure that the honourable member for Labrador West will agree on this. This is the only time that we have. If you buy a new vehicle or if you bought or if you change registration on the vehicle you have to go down to St. John's and wait as high as a month in order to get a plate for that type of vehicle. So, we have a Uepartment of 2716

June 20, 1972, Tape 863. Page 4, Labrador Affairs and I think in terms of, when we bring the administration of government to the people. It is a very simple thing to have a few license plates and I am sure that if the honourable mfnister of Labrador Affairs were here, he.has a staff and an office in Happy Valley. tc is very simple to get together,! thought in terms of doing this with the motor registration - the Department of Highways,and establishing an office, There is not going to be any additional cost.

There is not going to be an additional cost on your current account, Sir, fhis could be done and you could be providing a service, I think this is a worthwhile service, I am sure that the honourable member for Labrador West will bear with me on this particular subject. MR.ROUSSEAU: Mr, Chairman, I am sorry, The gentleman has me in a bind to­ day, There is nothing I can say on the point he is raising about the need. Do not go too far,Mr. Member for Labrador North,because on this point I have to agree the need of a motor vehicle registration bureau in Labrador is of prime importance.

We hope that the new provincial building in Wabush has already made a request and possibly one person can serve the whole of Labrador, I am not too concerned. !·know that there is a great need. I have been encumbered during the past couple of weeks with providing motor vehicle license plates or personal motor vehicle llcenses,when they have been lost in the mail or it has been three or four weeks before somebody cnn get them. I had a case where somebody is going on holidays and they cannot get their car shipped, but it was expedited, So, I think this is a very good point.

I would certainly urge the Minister of Highways to consider the setting up of a permanent represm1tative of the Motor Vehicle Registration Division in Labrador. MR.WOODWARD: Mr. Chairman, if we ramrod,we are going to run into difficulties, I would like to hear the minister's remarks. MR.MAYNARD: Mr. Chairman, very quickly 1 I will take note of the situation• I will commit the Minister of Highways, the regular minister of Highways into 2717 ,, ,

June 20, 1912 Tape 864 (afternoon) PK - 1 MR. MAYNARD: doing an investigation into the situation to see what can be done to correct it. On motlon total for subhead 1703 carried. MR. THOMS : Mr. Chairman, 1710-01 - maybe it is the wrong category of estimates, but are causeways embedded in roads and bridges or is it down in breastworks and ferries? MR. MAYNARD: No , you are not in quite the right one. It is further on•, MR. THOMS: Could the minister tell me which one it is in? MR. MAYNARD: Subhead 1711-02, MR . THOMS : Thank you. MR. WOODWARD: Mr.

Chairman, if I may be permitted for just a second, I have asked the minister last week concerning , . a survey that was being done and soil testing that was done on a proposed bridge at Northwest River, I wonder if the minister could tell me at this time if there is any expense in for this particular project and if there will be any further studies made on that particular proposed bridge at Northwest River? MR. MAYNARD: Could I get the answer for the honourable member and answer it when we come under the appropriate heading? I think that would come under roads and bridges or highway construction, MR.

WOODWARD: Under roads and bridges or highway construction, Mr. Chairman, MR. MAYNARD: Under 1711-02, On motion items 1710-01 through 1710-02-04 carried. MR. THOMS : Mr. Chairman, item 1710-03-02. Mr. Chairman could I have a breakdown? MR, MAYNARD: It is very difficult to give a complete breakdown - MR. THOMS: If the minister would like he could supply me with a list, I would be quite happy. MR. MAYNARD: Mr. Chairman, he would not get it within the next couple of hours. 2718

June 20, 1972 Tape 864 (afternoon) PK - 2 MR. THOMS: No, no within the next couple of days would s•.l'lt me. MR. MAYNARD~. We will see what we can do, these are grants to local road boards and there are probably 1,000 of them around. MR. THOMS: Is this just local road boards or is it some of the communities, like the ~ncorpo~ated areas? MR. MAYNARD: No, this would be local road boards. MR, THOMS: Just simply local road boards. Okay. On motion 1710-03-02 carried. MR. WOODWARD: Mr.

Chairman, 1710-03-04, if I may be permitted, seeing we do not have a sitting member in the House for Labrador Sooth and where we ran into some great difficulties last year and the year prior to that,and a great loss of school in that particular area due to the winter maintenance of snow clearing of roads. I am wondering if the minister has any proposed programme to try to upgrade the road and snow clearing progral!Ulle in Southern Labrado~on the Forteau to the Red Bay Area? Has this been looked into? MR.

MAYNARD: Sir, the situation is certainly been assessed at this time, I think the honourable member is well aware that last winter was an extremely hard one. I suppose we were not really prepared for it because we had considerable problems in St, Barbe North , White Bay North,all the northern areas. But assuming that we can find a better way to carry out winter maintena·nce, we surely will be doing so in the coming year, !t least we are aware of the situation and we will try to do what we-can about it. On motion 1710-03-04 carried.

On motion total for 1710 carried, MR.THOMS: 1711 - As I mentioned before I will ask the minister if he could give us a breakdown of 01, 02, and 08, There is no other comment. that I would like to make only the fact that I am disappointed 2719 c.•

June 20, 1972 Tape 864 (afternoon) PK - 3 MR. THOMS: with the $19,7 million decrease. MR. NEARY: to give - Mr. Chairman , do not carry it yet, the minister is going MR . CHAIR1'1AN: No, the honourable member for Bell Island, before the discussion between them, the item has to be put,because there has to be a motion before the committee in order to have a discussion on it and the Chair has not yet called 1711-01. MR. MAYNARD: Mr.

Chairman, I do not believe it would be appropriate and Ithink it would be without precedent for me to list out all of the projects that are in the estimates unde- any of these subheads but I would say, I believe that each M.H.A. would care to contact the Minister of Highways or the Department of Highway.rofficials and they could each individually find out which projects are in the estimates for their districts for this coming fiscal year. MR. THOMS: Mr. Chairman, do I understand from the Minister of Highways that he refuses to give us a breakdown of this subhead?

After all this is what we are to pass and we would like to know what they are all about. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, the honourable minister is quite right, ·year after year, after year the Opposition came into this House ranting and raving bellyaching because they could not get a breakdown of the work that was to be done nnder this subhead. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. NEARY: We are asking - Mr. Chairman, we gave the honourable members the information they wanted and all we are doing now, Sir, all we are doing, Mr. Chairman, is asking the honourable minister to give us a breakdown of 17+1-01 and I am sure, Mr.

Chairman, this is almost the end of June and a lot of this work is under construction right now. The minister should be able to walk into this House with a list of these projects. 2720

June 20, 1972 Tape 864 (afternoon) PK - 4 MR. MAYNARD: Mr. Chairman, am I to understand the honourable member for Bell Island saying that they always provided the information to the Opposition? My understanding of it is that there was never any information provided as far as the breakdown was concerned.

I say again that I have not.established any policy with government as to whether or not the breakdown would be given here in the House of Assembly and until I do, I can only say that each individual member may,at an opportune time,contact the Department of Highways, either the minister or the deputy minister and find out which projects are going to go ahead in his district during the coming year. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman,that answer really is not good enough.

We were told by members who are now sitting on the opposite side of the House, who sat in this House for the last four or five years,that when they formed the administration that this situation would change, that the House would be given a list of the projects,under improvements and road reconstruction and under new construction.

We were told this. ~ir, the honourable Minister of Municipal Affairs is nodding approval because the honourable minister was in this House, and the l,onourable minister knows that we were told time and time again, in this honourable House,that as soon as the Tories formed the administration that we would get this information, the House would get this information. Mr, Chairman, if my memory serves me ·correctly, year after year, year in and year out this subhead was debated for hours and hours and hours. We are only on the subhead now about five minutes.

Sir, members are getting impatient on the opposite side,they want to push it thTough. But we want some information, Mr. Chairman. We want to know and I am sure;the honourable minister's deputy is sitting behind him there - AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. NEARY: Well I hope the honourable Premier has whispered in the honourable minister's ear and said "yes, provide the information.v 2721 •

June 20, 1972 Tap~ 864 (afternoon) PK - 5 MR. NEARY: Give us the information we want. Maybe the honourable the Premier will stand in his place in the House and give us the information. The honourable silent Premier, he has not spoken so far in the session, except to read 2722

June 20, 1972 Tape 865 JM - 1 the odd prepared statement. Mr. Chairman, I think the Hou,,., is entitled to this information. We are entitled to it and the honourable Premier I think is noddin~ his approval. Are we not entitled to this information? We are not entitled to it. The people of. Newfoundl,,nd are not entitled to know where the S13,685,000 is going to be spent this year. They are not entitled to know'? They are entitled to know. Did the honourable Premier whisper in the minister's ear and say; "Give the House the information." AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) • ·- ---- ·-- MR. NEARY: Mr.

Chairman, the honourable minister can take all the time he wants to consult with his deputy who is seated immediatelv behind him there and give us a list of projects. Sir, we are entitled to have that. MR. THOMS: Mr. Chairman, I do not see why we cannot get a list of these projects under 1711(01). I do not see why this should be any­ more important than say 1710(03)(02) in which case the minister has already promised me a breakdown for the local roads. He said he could not give it to me immediately but l agreed he would have a couple of days in order to get it. MR~~ARD: I said I would try. MR.

THOMS: He would try. At least you said you would try but in this case you said you would not even try. Now, Mr. Chairman, it is very important for me and it is very important for my district - ~ HON. ME~ER: (Inaudible). MR~ THO~~~ Will someone pour a little drop of grease over in the corner there? Would the honourable member for Bonavista South do that for me? Then we would not get that squeaking squeak? Mr. Chairman, may I ask the minister if he would inform me now as to what projects under this heading 1711(01) will be carried out in the District of Bonavista Northf 2723. f,'

June 20, 1972 Tape 865 .TM - ? MR. NEARY: ... . ___ _ Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask the honourable minister when he stands in his place to answer the question nut to him by my honourable colleague, the member for Bonavista North, if he would also inform the House what projects will be carried o~t in Bonavista South this year and what projects are under construction now. I am sure some of these projects must be underway, Mr. Chairman, as here it is almost the end of June. The minister should be able to give us the information. MR".. THOM~: Mr.

Chairman, it is very important that we get this information because,if my memory serves me correctly, and I believe it does,no delegation since last month has been able to get to certain ministers and when they do get to certain ministers they are told; '"we cannot tell you what is going on this year because the estimates are not down." Now the estimates are on their way down so can we please have this information? Mr. Chairman, I am waiting for an answer from the minister, please. If he refuses to give it let him say so. MR. MAYNARD: Mr.

Chairman, as I stated before it has not been done --- ---- in the House of Assembly before and unless I am given specific or~ers by government or some other source to give a breakdown then I do not feel that I should have to do it. Each member can find out what is goinp. on in his district at this time by contacting the Department of Highways. MR. ROBERTS : Mr. Chairman, with respect to the answer the minister has given,I think he is correct when he says it has not been done before in the House.

I sat in the House once or twice and heard the previous Minister's of Highways question about what the money under the improvement and reconstruction head is to be expended for and I have heard the ministers in the past say that they were not prepared for one reason or another to give this information. I find it passing 2724

June 20, 1972 Tape 865 strange however that the present minister will not give iL. I have never heard him speak from this side,because as vet he has never sat on this side of the House, Sir. Maybe he will and maybe he will not, I do not know. But for the present he has only sat on the government side of the House as a member of the ministry. But I can assure him JM - 3 as I have no doubt my colleagues have that when his present colleagues were over here we used to hear it night and day about the iniquitv of the government refusing to give the information under this headinj?.

I find it hypocrisy of the worst order on the part of the minister. \l'he minister himself has never said that, but I find it hypocrisy on the part of the party represented by the minister. The honourable gentleman from Gander I am sure used to make this request, the honourable gentleman from St. John's East Extern, the honourable gentleman from St. Mary's,who then sat for St, John's East, the honourable gentleman from Burin and the honourable gentleman from St. John's East,at present all of whom are now in the ministry,11,;ed to make this request 1 as the member for St. John's West and the member for St.

John's Centre. We are obviously not going to get the information. I realize that and we have to accept it. \fr mist accept what we cannot change,but I can assure the House that when the wheel turns the next administration of this province will reveal this information in the House.

I want it to be noted now the hypocrisy and I use the word advisedly, Sir, in its correct sense, the hypocrisy of the present administration that when they were in the opposition made the rafters ring with their pleas to have this information and the then government were being anti-democratic and anti everything else in not making information,and now the first chance they have they are following exactly the course which they condemned so roundly and so soundly. If this is not hypocrisy of the worst order, Sir, I have no idea what it could be. 2725 .... , (.'

June 20, 19712 Tape 865 .lM - 4 Now the minister said if any individual member wishes to know about his district he might ask the officials or ask the department. I am tired of asking the department, Sir. I must have thirty letters written to the Department of Highways either to the minister or to the deputy minister. Some of them I have had the courtesy of an acknowledgement on and others I have not. But I now ask the minister, there are a number of areas in my district and I speak now as the member for White Bay North, I would like to know what the government are going to do this year on the road to St. Carols.

It is between $50,000 and $100,000 to link up that community of about thirty or forty people. It i~ the one community in that part of White Bay North which does not have road connections. The work began last year on the road to Great Brehat, a suburb of greater St. Anthony by way of St. Anthony Bight,and the people in Great Brehat got their road last year. The need now is for a spur line. The road is pegged. The pegs have been driven and the surveys have been done. All that is needed now is a word from the minister and a permit signed by the appropriate officials and that work will go ahead.

I do not think it is a great deal of money. I would imagine, and I am speaking from memory, the fip,ure is a round $50,000, maybe as high as a $100,000 but I think these people should have the road. l have written to the minister and I never got any reply. I may have had an acknowledgement but l certainly had no substantive reply. I wonder what is being done, Sir, on the road to Croque and St. Julien's in White Bay North. The survey was done last year. The deputy minister has been good enough to send me the results of the survey which showed that the estimated cost is $1.2 million, a very great deal of money.

I would not be surprised if the administration in a year in which they have less than $3. million, by my calculation, for new construction and so forth 1of which they have already committed 2726

J une 20 , 1972 'l'ape 865 the Brown's Arm road because the tenders have been in the newspaper or the tender calls have been in the newspaper. Of course thanks to the work of the member for Twillingate the administration have agreed to go ahead and carry on with the causeway to Twillingate. So these two items must come out of this $3. million sum and there is obviously not going to be a great deal left. They may not be able to get to the St. Julien I s and Croque road. But when we talk of priorities and we talk of paving and repavinp; and rebuilding there are still peo'!)le who have no road at all.

Similarily, the road to Harbour Deep, the honourable gentleman I do not know if he kno'lis Harbou.r Deep but it is almost directly across the peninsula from the River of Ponds area in his own constituency of St. Barbe South. I would like to know what is to be done there. Last year a survey was set afoot but I do not kr.ow what the results are. I have not been made aware of them.

This winter,under a local improvement grant, whatever they are called the LIP grants, the people in Harbour Deep began cutting a survey line, I am not sure if it was the line that a road would follow or not but some work was done, $90,000 OT' $100,QQQ 2727 JM - 5

June 20, 1Q77. Mr. Roberts Tape no. 866 Paga 1 - MRW of the Government of Canada's money went into that this winter, Sir. If we are not going to get the list of all the work being done by the government, if we must suffer the hypocrisy of the administration (I guess we must) then perhaps the minister can deal with those three projects in White Bay North, my own constituency. Again, Sir, just to recapitulate, the road to St. Barroll's, a very small project, very important to the people concerned, crucially important;the road to Croque and St.

Juliens, a much larger project, very much more costly; the road to Harbour Deep, a significant project I would think because it is about forty miles across the Northern Peninsula, a very difficult terrain, I would like to know where the matter stands and what if anything the administration proposes to do about those projects this year? MR. MAYNARD: Mr. Chairman, I could only answer those questions after talking with the officials of the department and I am sure the deputy minister may have some off-the-cuff answers he could provide. But we certainly have to check with the files.

Now if it is the wish of the House of Assembly that specific answers be provided here in the House to all these questions, plus the complete breakdown of the subheads 01-02-08, then I do not mind doing it,if the House of Assembly wants to give us time to compile it and table it. I do not have it right here. I have general headings and general subheads and this is all I can provide right at this time. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Chairman, that is a very generous offer by the minister. None of us would expect him to have the information in detail here.

If he would undertake to get the information and to table it in the House, I doubt if it could be done tonight, but possibly tomorrow afternoon at some point he might be in a position to table it 1 I for one would be satisfied. Of course, I would be particularly interested, as I said, in the three projects that affect the district which I represent. I am also as interested in every district in the Island. If the minister 2728

June 20, 19 72 Mr. Roberts. Tape no. 866 would get that, I think the work would go on much more speedily, Mr. Chairman. MR, THOMS: Mr. Chairman, I may also say that I would be quite willing to wait even a couple or three days. MR, ROBERTS: No, no. MR. THOMS: It is important for me that I have this and I would be willing to wait a little while for 01-02 and 08, Mr. Chairman. I am quite happy that the minister has consented to this. Page 2 MR.

ROWE (W.N,): Mr, Chairman, on the question of improvement and reconstruction of highways, I do find it somewhat incredible that the minister has come to the House looking f, , a specific amount of money. Most of it is represented by old,already committed work and some of it is represented by new work which the present administration proposes to do this year. I find it incredible I say that he has come with a specific demand or request for money and yet cannot pro duce in some detail the projects on which such money is to be spent.

I will have to accept the minister's word that he does not have that available, although I do not see why he cannot have it available. When he is compiling the information, which has been s ought by some members of this House, I would ask him, &long with the hon. Leader of the Opposition and other members, to pay particular attention to several very important roads in my own District of White Bay South.

One of them is the LaScie Highway, leading from Baie Verte to LaScie and serving the Community of Harbour Round, Brents Cove, Pacquet, Woodstock, Ming's Bight, and other connnunities in the District for Green Bay,which my hon. friend, the member for Green Bay can speak about himself if he wishes, That is a road of about thirty odd miles long, well travel