VOL. 3 PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD: 2:00 p.m. - 6:00 p.m. THURSDAY, MAY 25, 1978 NO. 68

May 25' 1978 The House met at 2:00 P .H. Xr. Speaker in the Chair. UR. SPEAKER: Tape 341l4 Order, please! STATEHENTS BY MINISTERS The hon. Minister of FishE~es. !lH - 1 MR. SPEAKER: ~!R. W. CARTER: Mr. Speaker,on May 30 representatives from seventeen nations who are members of the International Commission for the Northwest Atlantic Fisheries will meet in Bonn, Germany,to establish the total allowable catch for 1979 and to allocate fish qnotas to foreign countries if in fact it is found that there is a surplus to the Canadian fishing effort ~lithin the 200 mile economic zone.

Canada,because of its extended jurisdiction,has the authority to unilaterally set its own quotas and what is left over from the total allowable catch will be declared surplus to Canada's needs and allocated to ICNAF nations. Mr. Frank Dopplinger,Assistant Deputy Minister for pevelopment with M1 department~will represent the Newfoundland Government at this meeting. He has been briefed by me on the government's position regarding the setting of the total allowable catches within the 200 mile zone and the allocation of so-called surplus fish to foreign nations. \ve believe, Mr.

Speaker, that the amount of fish that will be surplus co Canada's needs in 1979 within the 200 mile limit will be minimal .a "few thousand metric tons at the most. That assumption, Sir, is based on figures that have been presented to us regarding suggested total allowable catches for 1979 and taking into consideration the expected increase in the Canadian effort during the coming year.

•. Nay 25, 1978 Tape 3484 HR. l'. CARTER: Our position, Mr. Speaker, is that there should be no foreign allocation of fish until every possible effort is exhausted to enable Canadian vessels to harvest all or as much of the total allowable catch as possibl ·e. If there is a small surplus, it should not be given to other countries as an outright gift . 1./e believe that economically motivated conditions should be attached to every pound of fis h that is allocated to foreign countr i es.

In return for our fish,the foreign nations should show good faith by either landing part of their catch in this country to be processed,reduce tariffs on fish entering their countries,p~ovide access to their fish markets,offer supply contracts to Newfoundland and Canadian companies, and carry out their vessel repairs in our shipyards or some other action that would be economically beneficial to this country and to this Province.

In estalllishing thE' Canadian requirements,we have requested that generous allocations be set aside for the inshore fishery and the quotas be set so as to allow a fast recovery of the fish stocks that will best benefit our Newfoundland inshore fishermen. It is our position that there be ~o immediate foreign allocation for cod in the northern waters~IC~AF areas 2J 3KL,in 1979 and that our northern cod stock receive every protection possible. We have suggested, Mr.

Speaker, to the Federal Government,and this position will be taken to ICNAF by our representatives,that 70 per cent of DW - 2 the total allowable catches for cod in these areas. that is areas. 2J 3KL be allocated to the inshore fishery, that 24 per cent be allocated to the Canadian Offshore Effort,and that the remaining 6 per cent be held in abeyance until we can extract

:ray 25, 1978 Tape 34 ~£. ~~ . W. f'.ART.ER: the besc possible deal in the foreign countries in exchange for fish quo·tas. That, !'ir . Speake r, is the !position of the ~ewfoundland Government, the one that will be put for~ard a t this Bonn meet~ng by our representati~e,and i t is a position f rom which we as a Prov:l.nce and a government t.rill not bud~ . The ICNAF meeting i n Bonn, "!".

Speaker, is crucial r::.o the ran·adian fishin~ inrlus trv and indeed to t he Net•foundland fishery. !~e must be strong in our position, the position ~~at as little fo rei~ effor t as possible be allowed . ithin our 200 mile extended jurisdiction because the future of fishin~ industry depend s on i t. (liJ - 3

"ay 25, 1978 SO~ HON. YE!AEERS: }'R. SPEAKER: Tape ~o . 3485 PT-1 P.ear, hear! Han. member for LaPoile. }'R. S . NEARY: ~ ·'r. Speaker, first of all, Sir, I want to say that we have come now to expect ministerial statements from the han. Minister of Fisheries on either Thursday or Friday. Usually the ~~inister goes for the weekend edition of The Daily News and The Telegram but the "inister is a day early this <Jeek for some reason or other unknown to us, Sir. Perhaps he has another ministerial statement tomorrow.

The ~!inister 1 d'o 1dll be, no doubt, a leadership candidate is steering a1?ay from the heat of battle and bringing in a fishery policy in patches, patchwork l:!.ke a j:!.gsa,. puzzle; the only thing is that there is no picture in it and just bringing it in in bits and pieces. But this statement today, Sir, the ~ ' inister could have done us the courtes y by letting us have a copy - ~ 'F. ~1. Cft.RTER: I sent a copy. ~'R. s. NEARY: No, Sir. Well - }'R. \1. CARTER: !·'r. Speaker, on a point of order. ¥R. s. NEARY: l•lell, I am sorry, Sir - r'R. w. CARTEP: I gave it,by the way to - ''P. s. NEARY: I am sorry, Sir.

I retract. The hon. gentleman sent a copy.Just before the hon. gentleman got on his feet,as a matter of fact, the page came and said, "l.fuere is Mr. Fred Rowe's desk?", and I said, "Right there:' . But the fact of the matter is, Sir, that the statement has not been distributed by the hen. gentleman. Now, vr. Speaker, the statement itself invol ves a meeting of IOlAF to be held in Bonn next month, I bElieve, is it? In June month. It has to do, Sir, with quotas in the North Atlantic,especially quotas regarding the northern cod stock.

I want to say now, Sir, and I want to ask the Yinister this as a question if that is the proper procedure, Sir, does the Minister really believe that there is a surplus of fish, that there is a surplus? Because we on this side do not think that there is any such thing as a surplus of fish that will have to be divi ded up between the

~~ay 25, 1~78 Tape ~:o. 3485 FT-2 ~~. S. NEARY: foreign nations. We do not subscribe to the policy that there is a surplus. There is no surplus and the ~'inister should get that in his mind. :1R. W. CARTER : ¥R. S. NEARY: Talk to your Federal frie~ds. There is no surplus, Sir, and we feel that the Canadian catching capability should be stepped up~especially here in this Province,to replace the foreign fleet. Our policy is, here on this side of the Rouse, that we should over the next few years eliminate the foreiEn fleet altogether, get them outside the 200-mile limit. That was the whole purpose, Mr.

Speaker, of establishing the 200-mile limit in the beginning. So we do not recognize the fact that there is a surplus. If there is fish to be caught,then Newfoundlanders should catch them and sell it to the foreigners. The Yinister also mentioned, Sir, and I would like to clear this up with the ~inister,that we should further compromise our position, we should trade off our position '"ith foreign nations to have the fish processed here, the ~inister mentioned that • . AN RON. I'E}'IIE!': ~'R.S . . NEARY: Why not? No, we are against that too. ~ewfoundlanders and Canadians should process the fish.

Then the }<inister mentioned reduced tariffs. 1·!ell, Sir, in my opinion the foreign nations in due course, in the very near future, if we can rout them outside the 200-mile linit and take over and catch the fish ourselves, that the tariffs will take care of themselves in due course. As far as the repairing of vessels and so forth here in Newfoundland is concerned, that may or may not be a good thing. If there are any foreign fleet left,well they may be forced to have their vessels repaired either in ~arystown or down here at the CN Dockyard if they ever get the syncrolift down there. So, Mr.

Speaker, I hope the ~inister is not compromising our position, trading off for things. '.Je are not trading off

~·ay 25, 1978 ~ ape :<o. 3485 r T-3 ~-'J' • S • NEA~Y : anything. He have the natural resource. He are in the bargaining position. We have the European countries by the throat, Sir, and we are not going to compromise our position as the ~finister just suggested in this statement. He are in the driver's seat and we are going to stay there, and we are not going to rest content until the foreign fleet is eliminated from the 200-mile limit and Newfoundlanders and Canadians are catching the fish.

While the ~!inister is making statements about surplus, by the way, there are longliner fishermen and draggermen in this Province who cannot get a licence to catch the fish. How can we reconcile, Mr. Speaker, the two things? Your Honour, how can we reconcile the fact that we have a surplus of fish, and draggermen and longliner fishermen in Newfoundland cannot get a licence to catch that fish? How can the Hinister reconcile that fact? So, Sir, we are not accepting the fact that there is even a small surplus,as the Minister saJd. We believe in conservation. We want to see our northern cod stock conserved and, !Ar.

Speaker, .re are not prepared to accept the fact that there is even the smallest surplus of fish. There is no such thing. And I believe the Hinister should adopt that as a part of the conventional wisdom of his department that there is no such thing as a surplus. The fish belongs to Canada. It is inside the 200-mile limit. Canadians should be catching it, especially Newfoundlanders, and we should not compromise our position by saying that we are going to do this, or give this away, if we· can get the foreigners to give us concessions. We are in the driver's seat

Hay 25, 1978 Tape 3486 EC - 1 MR. NEARY: and we intend to stay there and we should capitalize on the 200 mile limit as much as we can. SOME RON. MIDlBERS: Hear, hear! MR. W. CARTER: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Fisheries. !fR. H. CARTER: I do not know if I am going to be permitted to respond to the question. The gentleman mentioned, Mr. Speaker, and asked me to question, Do we, in fact, have a surplus? I should remind him that I support motherhood,too. You know, the speech he made a moment ago is a motherhood speech. But the fact is, Hr.

Speaker, that we have nothing at all to do with establishing the total allowable catch. That is a decision made by Ottawa, hopefully on the basis of sound, scientific knowledge. We take the position that Canadian fishing effort should be given first crack at the resource and after that, given the fact that the allowable catch is established by Ottawa, if in fact there is a surplus, then there should be economically motivated conditions attached to it. But certainly we have nothing to do with determining exactly how much of a surplus there will be, or if in fact there will be a surplus. That is a decision, Mr.

Speaker, that is made in Ottawa for which we have no input whatever. SOME HON. MEMBERS: \l'l HON. HE!lBER: ::1R. W. CARTER: Oh, oh! Order, please! We are not asked for any input, Mr. Speaker, as to what the allowable catch would be. I do not think we are qualified to repute the figures that are supplied to the federal government by their

:-fa y 25, 1 978 Tape 3 48 6 EC - 2 MR. lv. CARTER: scientists, ~ ertainly I am not. We do not have the scientific backup in the Department of Fisheries, but I repeat, the TACs are established by Ottawa, the Canadian fishing effort is established by Ottawa and 1 consequently, any surplus is established by Ottawa as well. }!R. SPEAKER: Now before calling the next order, I am pleased to welcome to the House of Assembly on behalf of hon. members, forty Grade VIII students. These are students on an exchange programme from Vancouver College in British Columbia; accompanied by two teachers, Brother Furey and Mr.

Barkin. I am sure hon. members join me in welcoming these students to the galler y . SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! PRESENTING PETITIONS MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. W. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, I have the honour and distinct pleasure of presenting a petition to the House which I received a few moments ago in the mail from the residents of the communities of Moreton's Harbour, Tizzard's Harbour, Bridgeport and Whale's Gulch on New World Island.

The prayer of the petition is that "We, the taxpayers of these communities do hereb y ask to have the roads in our respective communities paved this Spring." And the petition, Sir, is signed by some 384 names of voters, residents of those communities. They go on to say, Sir, in the prayer of the petition , "Our gravel road is now twenty-five years old and we are sick and tired of eating dust and ruining our cars in potholes~ The 'eating dust' and the word 'potholes' are underlined, and I do not blame them at all for putting the emphasis

Hay 25, 1978 Tape 3486 EC - 3 l!R. IL ROlvE: on those particular words. "The amount of money spent on the upkeep of our so-called roads in the past twenty-five years could have paved them long ago and saved the government money. We have been promised pavement in times of elections, now we want action." A very reasonable request, Sir. And there is no doubt in my mind, Sir, that they received some very, very strongly worded promises around,say, the beginning of the month of December of last year while there was a by-election going on in that particular district.

Probably, Sir, if we searched around long enough we would find some documents with signatures on them of high ranking, elected officials of the government regarding that commitment . So I support this petition.

It is also supported - - in fact, the petition has been sponsored by the Twillingate - New World Island Rural Development Association together with the Moreton's Harbour branch of the Women's Institute, Sir, and that has been signed by Rod Woolridge, who is the President of the Rural Development Association and Ida Reid as the Secretary, together with the President and Secretary of the Moreton's Harbour branch of the Women's Institute. Sir, I think the prayer and the substance of this petition is infinitely and eminently reasonable.

They want the roads to their communities paved this coming Spring, this Summer during the upcoming construction season. They were promised this small amount of work, Sir, I think we are talking about some fifteen miles in all, of roads not up to the

May 25, 1978 Tape 3487 IB-1 MR. W. ROWE: Trans-Canada Highway standard by any means but roads up to the grade that usually go through various rural communities with a bit of black top of them to keep down the dust, Sir, and to make the roads passable by automobiles.

I hope, Sir, that the Minister of Transportation can find it in his heart to support the petition, live up to the commitments which were made by his colleagues six months or so ago during the by-election when the people,as I understand it,were given a firm commitment by the government, by representatives of the government that this work would be done, Sir. I have great pleasure in moving, Sir, that the petition be tabled in the House and referred to the department to which it relates. MR.

SPEAKER: Before recognizing the hon . member for LaPoile,I would welcome to the galleries three gentlemen from the Newfoundland Federation of School Boards; the President of the Federation, Mr. William Moores, the Vice Chairman, Reverend Father Michael Murphy, and the Executive Secretary, Reverend William Bellamy. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The han. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, I want to just take a few moments to support the petition so ably presented on behalf of three hundred and eighty­ odd constituents of my han. colleague, the Leader of the Opposition, in Mortons Harbour, Tizzard's Harbour, l~hale's Gu1ch and-•·•here is the other one? MR. ~J. ROWE: Bridgeport. MR. NEARY: And Bridgeport. And ,Mr. Speaker, in supporting the petition I would like to welcome the han. Minister of Transportation and Communications from Claridges in London - MR. DOODY: Not Claridges. MR. NEARY: No? MR. w. ROWE: The Sayov . MR. NEARY: the Savov?

May 25, 1978 Tape 3487 IB-2 MR. DOODY : No, I was not in the Savoy. MR. NEARY: Well - MR. NOLAN: You were not in the Brazil House? MR. DOODY: I was not in the Brazil House. MR. NEARY: Was the hen. gentleman in London? MR. DOODY: I was not in the Roosevelt House. MR. NEARY: Was the hen. gentleman in London? MR. DOODY: I was not in a boarding house. MR. NEARY: \~as the hen. gentleman in London. MR. DOODY: I am in this House and please get on with that you were saying. MR. NEARY: Was the hen. gentleman in London? MR. W.N.ROWE: He should be in a nut house by the sound of him. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear~ MR.

NEARY: My hen. colleague said, Sir, the hon. gentleman should be in the nut house according to the sound of him. Mr. Speaker, be that as it may, Sir, I do hope that the hon . gentleman has recovered from his jet lag and heard the petition so ably presented by my hen. colleague, the Leader of the Opposition,asking to have another promise that was made by the Premier of this Province, made by the administration, have another promise carried out and not broken by the Tory Party and by the government of this Province, especially the leader of the government, the hen. the Premier. Apparently, Sir, a promise was made.

The students in the ga 11 ery, Sir, might wonder what we are doing right now. He 11 according to the member for Grand Falls (Mr. Lundrigan),the_gentleman who resigned from the Cabinet,we are wasting the time of the House presenting petitions on behalf of our constituents. And according to the Premier we are lowering the decorum and the dignity of the House by trying to help our constituents,by working hard for our constituents. In actual fact what we are doing, Mr.

Speaker, is we are presenting petitions that have been circulated with a lot of hard work,inconvenience, by volunteers,sent in and brought in and presented on the floor of this House. Petitions, Sir, are a very valuable part of the procedure of

May 25, 1978 Tape 3487 IB-3 MR. NEARY: this House,in my opinion. Now the han. the Premier may think differently,or the member for Grand Falls (Mr. Lundrigan) may think they are a waste of time. In this particular case, in the four communities of Mortons Harbour, Tizzard's Harbour and Whale's Gulch and Bridgeport,the constituents, the people who live there, the voters, happen to think that this is a very important matter, this matter of getting their road upgraded and paved.

So I do hope, Sir, that it will not be a waste of time, that the Minister of Transportation and Communications will take note of the request, the prayer of the petition from the voters in these four communities on Twillingate Island. MR. W. ROWE: New World Island. MR.

NEARY: On New World Island,rather,and that the minister will be able to see his way clear in this fiscal year to allocate a few dollars, if we c~n ground a helicopter or two for a few weeks and make a few dollars available to upgrade and pave part of that nine or ten mile stretch of road that the government promised to pave in at least two or three provincial elections and in the by-election that was held recently in the district of Twillingate. AN HON. MEMBER: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: Before recognizing the han. gentleman for Conception Bay South (Mr.

Nolan),! would like to welcome to the galleries on behalf of hon. members thirty Grade Y students accompanied by their teacher, Sister Eileen Bouzane from St. Augustine's Elementary School in the historic district of Waterford-Kenmount. I know han. members join me in welcoming these students.

May 25, 1978, Tape 3488, Page 1 -- apb SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Conception Bay South. MR. NOLAN: Mr. Speaker, I rise to support the petition as presented by the Leader of the Opposition. I look forward to the Premier of the Province certainly supporting this petition because he,too,like a number of us, spent some time in that particular vicinity during the by-election. In fact, Mr.

Speaker, and I am surprised really in a way to maybe even mention it or think of it, the hon.Leader of the Opposition,perhaps, should have mentioned this petition should never have been presented 1 not as far as wasting the time of the House is concerned, there is no need for it. The highest dignitaries in the land laid in on the line during the by-election. There is no need for a petition in this House for that, it is a commitment. We should be merely be standing here today and supporting a plan announced by the Premier or the Minister of Transportation that the work is going to go ahead.

That is what we should be doing, not pleading on bended knees to get this badly needed work done. Someone asked me at the beginning of the New Year if I had a fond New Year's wish, and what I replied at that time was; For the people of Newfoundland I would wish for them all the things promised to the people of Twillingate. That is what I wanted. Is there anything more in this world?

So I hope then that the hon. the Premier,who spearheaded this momentous political campaign and drive for social betterment for this area out there, this historic distric~ will be, certainly, the first on the other side to rise and announce today that this work is going to be done as

May 25, 1978, Tape 3488, Page 2 -- apb MR. NOLAN: he and his fellows stated that it would be done. It is as simple as that. We should not be on bended knee pleading that this badly needed work be done. Let the Premier now demonstrate the social conscience that extends from sea to sea for the benefit of our students from Vancouver in the gallery, and show that this work will be done this year,and the other work that was indicated but we will get to that later, I have no doubt, in this session.

I certainly support the prayer of this petition and it is sad, in fact, that is has to be presented at all since the commitment was already made to these people in the area. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister for consumer Affairs and The Environment. MR. MURPHY: Mr. Speaker, I cannot remain in my seat after listening to the very formidable pleas put forward by the members on the opposite side, with reference to these portions of road. It brings my mind back, I believe, Sir, some ten years- and I hate to bring the hon.

Speaker into this but he will recall also, and the hon. member for St. Mary's - The Capes (Mr. W. Carter) - where we did a tour of the Island - we were then in Opposition - with m~~ers of Parliament. I can remember now standing in Morton's Harbour with the member for St. Mary's - The Capes by a little store. We had many people come up to us and we were discussing their problems with them and they said, "One of the worst problems we have is our roads." They said, "Since 1949 and every election since we have been promised paved roads in this area." M...~. F. WHITE: You were going to change

May 25, 1978, Tape 3488, Page 3 -- apb MR. WHITE: all that though. MR. MURPHY: So we had hoped that we could, but when we got into paving all the roads that had been neglected, Mr. Speaker, it was quite a formidable task. But it might be all right to refresh some people's memories of the fact that this did not happen the day before yesterday or last year or since 1971. These roads have been neglected for some thirty years just about, and I have all the sympathy in world for people today who have to put up with roads in the condition that existed in that particular area.

And I am sure that when monies are available, when we can get monies to do these things as compared to other things, such as the laying off of teachers, the road across Labrador, to the Quebec situation, I am sure that this government will be the first, Sir, to put the money in that particular area. SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. SPEAKER: MR. WHITE: Hear, hear! The han. member for Lewisporte. Mr. Speaker, I should like to rise to support the prayer of the petition as so ably presented by the Leader of the Opposition and the member of the House of Assembly for Twillingate (Mr. W. N.Rowe) district.

Morton's Harbour, Tizzard's Harbour, Whales Gulch and Bridgeport, Mr. Speaker, are four communities that depend almost totally on the fishery for livelihood. Recently, during the last four weeks, a programme has gotten underway in Bridgeport to develop a fishery programme there but by and large most of the fish from those four communities have to be trucked over to Twillingate where it is processed. Once again, Mr. Speaker, I should like to remind the government of it resource based policies of spending money where it will enable jobs to be created and this is one of the areas,in those four

May 25, 1978, Tape 3488, Page 4 -- apb MR. WHITE: small cornrnunities,where this could be done. Mr. Speaker, other members who

::u.y "" --, 1972 l :~'" • ~·lli I TE : ~·!r. Speaker, other memi:>c:=:-s ~·1ho have spoker. in support of this petition have referred to the promises that were made during the Twillingate By-election; not just promises, )!r. Speake:~;, :-ut commitnt:nts nade on province-Hide television by the Premier of this Province, and either Xr. Speaker, either it •,Jas a commitment by the Premier of the Province or it ''as polit±cal blaclanail. Now you can call it ''hat you like.

Either he intended that the promises '.7oul d be ~:e-;:~ o ~ :.._e Ho.s just using it as ?olitic2.l h lac ~:;,;.~ail and t:<e people I guess of t:1e Provi:1ce \·Till have t o d -~ci d e and I hope, Mr. Speaker, that these promises, or those commitments that were made, will not &o do~'Il in history as being political blaclanail. SO~!E HON. NE~ERS : Hear, hear! ~. SPEAKER: The hen. member for Windsor-Buchans. MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker, _I rise to support the petition so ably presented by the hen. Leader of the Opposition, and I do so for two reasons; Sir.

One is that I was born within a couple of miles of one of the town that is referred to in the petition, Cottel's Island qnd I am aware what the people have gone through this past twenty-five years, the kind of roads that they have been forced to live with. And, Mr. Speaker, t:1e other reasons in particular I rise is to lend my support and s trengt':l.en the argunent made by the member for J e•-1 isporte (!1r. 'tlhite) when he indicated that those four towns, the economies of those towns are based on the fishe~. I have heard petitions presented in this han.

Rouse, and the total prayer of the petition was to provide raads over •mich fish products could be hauled to fish plants and what have you, in a dust free atmosphere. Now certainly if it 1-muld have applied in those ?etitions then certainly it applies in this one.

~' ay 25, 1978 Ta pe 17o . 3489 ' !' f - 2 :m. FLIGI!T: Now, ~!r. Speaker, I lvas interested to see the hen. member for St. John's Centre (~r. ~rurphy) rise to support this petition, because having spent ten days in the immediate l'!or!!on's Harbour- Bridgeport- Tizzard's Harbour area last ~ecember, it was interesting to note that that particular minister was the only one who was absent.

He was the only minister ~~hom I did not see in that area and I can only presume , l:nm.;ing the • man the way I do, that he was ashamed to be there to be associated with the kind of tactics that went on in that district in that by-election. And, Mr. Speaker, here is a chance for this administration. The former }'inister of Transportation has been accused over the years as being totally partisan in allowing road projects to go ahead in various districts. I am not saying it is true. I am saying it is a fact,that that particular minister has been accused of taking a look - ~!R.

MURPHY: Are we getting into (inaudible) MR. FLIGHT: No. No. No. This is relevant. This is relevant, ~r. Speaker. I am saying, Mr. Speaker, that that minister, right or ~rrong, has been accused over the years, Hhile he 1vas ~inister of Transportati~n, of being partisan in allowing road ~rejects to g;o ahead. If it was in the ri~\t district, the!'. it •vent, if it did not it eras cut 3.nd the minister h"'-s de-:ended himself on many occasions, Now here is a• chance for this administration to prove that they are indeed .:1ot partisan.

They are talking about a di.<:trict that was Han against oven1helming odds, the kind of battles and promises that were do'iln in that district were unbelievable. I hear the Einister of Justice j ust stood bac!: i;:1 St. Joh.,'s and he tied it alto~~:ether back here. I clid not see him in T:·lillingate eit:,er, but I fi<>ure he was back :1ere tying it together and :::m·• he is the :1inister of Finance.

- 3 :!!t. FLI-;n!: for tnis :l<imi:tistrlltion to ?ro ve t!:at :!1ey ar!! i:lceed cot ;>artisan a~d that they recognize t~e needs wha=ever it e.."tists in this Province . And I would hop e that the :linister of Transportation rises to suppo rt t~s ?etit!oc and t he people of these comr.uni ties, :tor ton 1 s Ha!"bour , ~fu ale 1 s Gulc:t , 3ridse;>ort, the ;>aveoent chat t:1ey ha·1e deserved and :leeded for so long. ~:e :1or.. oenber :or :erra ::ova . ~~ . u:sa: ·:r. Speaker , I ::ould 11:~ t o stanc to give this petition my very stron~ support as well . I go t to ~ow t~~s area quite well back in ~eceobe r.

I c rov e ove r these roads quite r egula rly, t ~ e road s referred to in the pe:ition , ~~d can bear ~ it:tess to t ~e ~eplora~:e cocc~tions of the r oad as outli nec in t he petit:io:t . While lister.i:tg ::.o the hon . ::~ember for St. John 1 s Ce:Jtre (~!r . :turpil

y) I was not certain whet!'ler ho agreed with the petition or not. I .. picked up two points that the :ninister made t~at seen~ed to indicate that i1e "<las no t supportin~ t:1e petition . lie seemed to make a very clear case for makin<; frivil01:s and political proo.ises su~ gesting t!lat his party 11as not the creator of chis ki:11.i of acti vi :y Eea r, hear! - out ce rt .:i:~ly i:ld!catcd t.~at they could ve ry ~ell ~e the pe~etuators of sucu activities.

'f..:J.y ::'5' 1978 ~fR. LUSH: Secondly,the minister referred to the fact that this neglect of these roads did not take place over the past four or five years but rather over thirty years. Well, Mr. Speaker, I was under the impression that with this gover=ent Fe ~1ere into a new era, we were into a new approach to politics and that there l~as going to be some very definite progranunes, some very definite policies made respecting pavement and upgrading of roads in this Province. Hell 1 it loo!cs li~:e, ~!r.

Speaker, there h2.s been no efforts made in t!:lis particular ctren of the Province, although l·'e have got the promise. I would hope as others of my colleagues suggested, that the minister 1·rould stand in his place today saying that the government will indeed honour those promises, those col!ll!litments which were made to these residents of New World Island and I would hope that the minister "'auld rise, as I sit in my place, to announce that great ne~7s to the people of New World Island. SOME HON. MEHBERS : Hear, hear! ANS'I'JERS TO QUESTIONS FOR WHICH ~OTICE HAS BEEN GIVEN: :'ffi. SPEAKER: Agriculture.

MR.. ~.A.YN.ARD : Tne han. Minister of ForestrJ and Mr. Speaker, I would like to table the answer to question no. 101, asked by the han. member for Terra Nova (~!r. Lush). MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: ~':R. ~lEARY: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. A point of order. ~r. Speaker, the han.

Minister of Transportation, Sir, indicated that at the earliest opportunity the han, gentleman would table certain proposals in connection '·rith helicopter contracts that the han. gentleman brought into t:1e House the other day and played g:3!!1es ~lith, Is the han. ge:::J.tleman now in the position to put these proposals on the table of the House? ::R. DOODY: :!r. Spea:c.er, to t"hat point of order.

:m.. D00DY: I indicated to the House that I would be giving a ministerial statement - t:1e lengt~ of ;:.;hich has not been surpassed in the history of this Rouse, and so far the researchers !lave not finished doing all the detail on hot•7 long the longest Qinisterial statement has been. But in the ;:Jeantime they are preparing the necessary text and I tdll present it all to the neuse in good time, with COl!lplete detail Hhen I am absolutely certain that the information will not be rejected by ?20ple opposite 'vho are obviuu:::Jly :lOt interested i:1 findi~g out exactly tvhat the story is. ~·'R. =>'EARY: ~1R.

SPEAKER: A point of order. Another point of order? Another point of order because the previous one was not a point of order. Yes,a point of order, Sir. Yesterday, Sir, the hen. :·!inis ter of Consumer Affairs indicated that he had documents that he wished to lay on the table of the House. Is the hon. gentleman now in a position to lay these documents on the table of the Rouse under this heading of Answers to Questions that have already been asked? ?-!R. SPEA.'<ER: Order, please! I think the question is a legitimate oral question but I ti'ould not recognize it as a point of order. So I ·.;oill call oral questions.

In other v7ords, I think that that is a legi ti.mate oral question and the t~inister :nay answer it,but I Hould not regard it .:1s a r-oint of order. :"1' •• NEARY: ~vell, l'!r. Speaker, the only thing is that we do not want to cut into our Oral Question period by referring to things that happened yesterday, Sir. And I think that the hen. gentleman, it is incumbent upon him, The hen. gentleman promised and tmen Your Honour called the ordef, Answers to Questions already asked - MR. ~~HY: no documents. '!R. '!-IE..<\.P.Y: has an answer to a question, he h~s ~·:ell,put t!le answer 0:1 the table then.

Hay :'.5, 1~7~ :-~pe ~:o. 3'·"1) :!"~ ~!R. ~·!!.i'RPP.Y : I have an anS'!;·Te.r to 3 question. '!R. NEARY: c7ell is the· hon. gentleman going !:o table it? :!-IR. MURPHY: Sure. MR. NEARY: Alright, table it !lOW, ·~. ~mRPUY: When I am ready. !1R. NEARY: Well table it. MR. ~mRPHY: I am a bit tired. I am resting for a moment, ·.Then I get the strength I wil l - ~!R. ~iOL.I\N: Resting again? MR. w. RO'.JE: Another rest. ORAL QUESTIONS: ~~. SPEAKER: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. '<R. T,J • ROWE: I hope I do not disturb the hon. Minister of Consumer Affairs and the Environment, Mr.

Speaker, and ~~haust him by asking him ·to leap to his feet, although, Sir, the distance is not very long if he does leap to his feet. - 3 MR. MU!U'HY: You will never disturb me, I guarantee you that. MR. ';J. ROWE: Sir, I would like to ask the hon. minister one or two questions concerning a matter which I believe he will agree is a matter raising some gt'ave doubts in the minds of a lot of ~eople in Newfoundland, and I refer of course to the sprayi:::-.g ?rogra.rnme to combat the spruce buduom infestation. No,·!

I am asking hi~ t!':e question, Sir, as our protector, as a reasonable gentleman, hen. gentleman, and as the protector of the environment in this Province, Sir, is he avrare, as Minister of the Environment in this Province, of any other province or state that may be using the spray, the chemical Matacil for the purpose of infestation, spruce budworm infestation or any other infestation for that matter?

i ay 25, 1978 MR. W. RO't-7E: question? MR. MURPHY: MR. W. _Rowg: MR. MURPHY: :'ape 3491 EC - 1 Is he going to ~nswer the 0. No 101hat? (Inaudible) right? I did n-ot like the g entleman's attitude in addressing the q-uestio .n. !.f!t·..:.·__;,;_..o.._=.:.:.::. minister? :1R • • tu'RPHY: f or himself. What is the problem with t h e !he minister has some respect ~1R . .ffilTE: The minister does not care! He d oes not care. ~· !R. MURPllY: perhaps a lot more than - 11R . R. ROWE: Mr. Speaker? MR . SPEAKER: !h e minister cares a lot, He does not like my att i tude , Order, please! Order, please!

I must point out that as a rule it is stated t hat the minister is not required to answer, and his no t answering cannot be the subject of debate at th i s time. ~tR. ''l . ROHE : I ask the h on. min~ ster with all humility if e would answer this particul ar question . Has he had discussions l'lith the members of t he to wn council of Gander concerning t heir stated intention to g o to court to seek an injunction to stop t h e spray pr ogramme i n t h e area o f Gander town, par1:icularly t h e Gander water supply? HR • . URPRY: }!R. II . ROl-lE: MR. ~!URP RY : in Gand er. ~ !R. ~1 . ROHE: No. No what?

No meeting with the town council Well, d oes the minister intend to

Hay 25, 1978 :1R. H. ROWE: and ask them. HR. HURPHY: !1R. W. ROWE: Tape 3491 EC - 2 get in touch with the town council No. No, Hr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, this boggles the mind. Mr. Speaker, let me ask another question. Has the minister been in touch with or has he talked to any representatives of the Air Traffic Controllers in Gander who have publicly mentioned that they are reserving the right to refuse to han&le aircraf~ in certain instances, which may be carrying this spray or involved in the spray programme?

Has he or any of his officials sought consultation.or talks with these gentlemen to see what their concern is and what dangers to the environment they may be worried about? MR. W. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, this has never been heard of in the history of the House. unprecedented. It is completely MR. MURPHY: UR. NEARY: too. UR. H. ROWE: ~!r. Speaker. Did you ever hear of silence?

We have often heard of ignorance, Yes, I have heard of silence, I have heard the minister is an expert at it, a minister who is not the least bit concerned about one of the most serious environmental programmes and dangers this Province has ever faced. ~fR. NEARY: MR. vl. ROWE: Mr. Speaker. And the health of the people. He is totally unconcerned, He will not answer the questions. I do not mind him not answering the questions, but the ones he did answer! He has not been in touch with the Gander to= <"nnnr-11 to see what their concerns are.

Does the minister know, for example, does he happen to know whether there is going

Hay 25, 1978 Tape 3491 EC - 3 ~ fR. W. ROWE : to be a spray programme, whether the spraying is going to take place directly over Gander Lake? Does he know that? Is there going to be spraying over Gander Lake? What is going to happen? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. W. R0~·7E: What are they doing? Are they spraying over Gander Lake or does he know? ~1R . NEARY : Is the minister going to answer the question? Well, what arrogance! MR. W. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, we know that Nova Scotia has taken a decision not to get involved in a spray programme for the spruce bud~vorm infestation.

They are going to resort to other methods, thinning and reforestation and salvage operations and so on. Is the minister aware of whether the province of B.C., for example, are they going to spray for the spruce budworm or are they resorting to other activities or what are they going to do? Does the minister know that? Can he give that information to the House? Mr. Speaker, may I direct a question or two to the Premier? First of all, Mr.

Speaker, I would like to ask the Premier, is this government policy for the Minister of Consumer Affairs and Environment not to answer any questions regarding the spray programme going on in this Province? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Premier. PREMIER MOORES: Mr. Speaker, the minister has the full right to answer any questions he deems necessary or ones that he feels are appropriate. I would suggest to the han. the Leader of the Opposition that he direct his questions to the Minister of Forestry and Agriculture

:Ia y 2 5 , 19 7 8 Tape 3491 EC - 4 PRE:HEP ~OORE S: regarding the spraying programm e and to the 1!ini ster of Hea~tb as regards the people of Gander. HR . W. ROW£:: No, Mr . Speaker, these are env ironm ental questions , questions affecting the environment in this Province. Now if the Premier wants to say that the minister is not involved in the environment, that it is a misnomer, the department is not conce r ned about the environment and so on, I will be prepared to take his word for that .

But in the absence of answers from the Ministe r of the Environment, I would like to dir ect these environmental ques t ions to the Premier, himself , and see if he will give us an answers grace us vi:h an answer, Sir, or whether he will show the same kind of unheard of, unprecedented arrogance concerning one of the most important problems facing this Prov ince.

May 25, 1978 Tape 3492 MR. SPEAKER: Order, please~ I must point out to hon. members the requirement of avoiding debate during the Question Period. The hon. Leader of the Opposition. IB-1 MR. W. ROWE: Thank you, Sir. Would the Premier know,since it is a very important matter,as the head of the government whether there is any other state or province to his knowledge which is using this particular chemical spray, Matacil ,for purpose of combating a spruce budworm infestation? The Premier does not know. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. minister. MR. MAYNARD: Mr.

Speaker, I am not completely sure as to whether any other province is using Matacil for this year's programme but I can certainly find out for the hon. member. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. The hon. Leader of the Opposition. \MR. W. ROWE: A supplementary.

Let me ask the Premier, Sir, or if he wants to refer it,if he does not know the answer to it although they are very important problems, will he tell us whether he himself has contacted or been approached by the Gander town council or whether he has contacted the Gander town council to see what their particular objection is, what problems they foresee, what dangers they perceive as far as the spruce budworm spray is concerned? Has the Premier taken an initiative on that? -MR. SPEAKER: The hon. minister. MR. MAYNARD: Mr.

Speaker, have met once with representatives of the Gander town council a few days ago and the Minister of Health and I are meeting again tomorrow night with members of the town council of Gander as well as members of the public. understand it is a public meeting. We know their basic objections to the spraying programme and we will be discussing it in some detail with them when we meet tomorrow night in Gander. MR. FLIGHT: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. The hon. member for Windsor-Buchans.

May 2 5, 1 978 Tape 3492 IB-2 MR. FLIGHT: MR. Speaker, I will direct my question to the Minister of Environment. It is unbelievable that the Minister of Environment is not answering questions with regards to and totally concerned with the environment in this Province. And the spray programme is totally involved and this is why we have so much concern already. Itt evident and there is more to come. So my question will go to the Minister of Environment. If he chooses not to answer it then I will refer it to the Premier.

Is the minister prepared to comment on the fact in this House that Matacil or Aminocarb is not registered for sale in the United States and is not being used? It has been registered for experimental purposes only and being sold for use in Canada in a spray programme. But in the country where it is being manufactured it is not reqistered for sale or for use other than for experimental purposes. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for LaPoile, MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, have three of four questions for the Minister of Transportation, Sir, who is back in his seat today.

Sir, would the minister inform the House if the Director of Air Services has yet returned to his position or is the gentleman still on vacation in Antigua? MR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Transportation arid Communications. MR. DOODY: have not heard from the Director of Air Services. checked with the deputy minister this morning who told me that he had not heard from the Director of Air Services. So we can only presume that the gentleman is still on vacation, hopefully in good health and enjoying himself. MR. NEARY: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. ~R.

SPEAKER: Before recognizing the han. gentleman for a supplementary I have to hear a point of order. MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker, I had a couple of questions on the environment and I presume that the Premier was conferring with the minister in order to answer what consider to be a fairly important question. I only had a couple. That is why,of course,! did not stand on a supplementary just expecting the answer.

May 25, 1978 Tape 3492 IB-3 ~1R. SPEAKER: recognize the hon. member's position. There is not a great deal I can do about it now. He asked the question. No answer forth came and I did recoonize somebody else. The hon. member is not precluded from being recognized again in the Question Period. The hon. member for LaPoile, a supplementary. MR. NERY: I was getting on to three or four questions there with the hon. Minister of Transportation . In other words.I can assume from the minister's answer that the Director of Air Services did not ask for an extra weeks leave of absence. Is that correct? MR.

DOODY: You can assume anything you like. MR. NEARY: am asking the minister. Would the minister confirm or deny that the Director of Air Services asked or did not ask for an extra weeks leave of absence. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. minister. MR. DOODY: Mr. Speaker, I do not know. As I indicated to the House some time ago,! have really no idea how many weeks of annual leave the Director of Air Service is entitled to. The deputy minister has assured me that he is using leave to which he is entitled.

Whether he is using it all at this period of time, whether he is going to use some later on during the year, what his social plans are, I really have no knowledge of nor control over and I really have not checked into it that closely. All I know is that the permanent head of the department has assured me that the Director of Air Services is on legitimate leave~legitimately applied

:ray 25, l97o Tape :<o. 3493 HR. DOODY: for and legitimately approved. Other tnan that it is none of my business and I have no intention of delving into it. HR. NEARY: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. ~. NEARY: Perhaps the car that the hon. gentleman has, the only other public servant who has a car other than the Premier,carte blanche, full time the director of Air Services, what is the status now of that vehicle? Has the minister taken any steps to see if that is true t:1at tl1is gentleman has a car carte blanche and what has nappened to that vehicle now? MR. SPEAKER: ~JR.

DOODY: The hon. minister. Hr. Speaker, that point was raised by the hon. gentleman opposite,and it become increasingly difficult to refer to the gentleman as au hon. gentleman but I realize protocol and tradition demands it.

When it was raised•at that time I made the appropriate enquiries to the permanent head "of the department and asked him to look into it and if the allegations were correct to take the appropriate action. 'Since the gentleman to whom these questions are related, the Director of Air Services,has not,as I have indicated,returned to the Province,I am hardly in a position to give an accurate and reasonable report on that particular motor car which the hou. member alleges is being misused somehow or other. }!R. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: MR. NEARY: Hr. Speaker, a supplementary question, Sir. A supplementary. Mr.

Speaker, I am not satisfied with that answer but I will deal with that later on, Sir, during the afternoon. But I want to ask the minister, does he not think it is unusual for the Director of Air Services,the man who directs the air services-not Mr. O'Brien or ~rr. Simmons as the minister told us the other day, they do not direct the air services; it is Captain Piercey who directs the air services- is it not unusual for him to be away at the most crucial period in the

:lay 25' 1978 Tape "o. 3493 Jd - 2 dR. NEARY: year,when we have the water bomber fleet flying and figi1ting forest fires and so forth and two new Canso planes being delivered to Newfoundland and all kinds of activity going on? Is it not unusual for that gentleman to be on leave at this particular point in time? XR. SPEAKER: The bon. minister. XR. DOODY: Hr. Speaker, if the hon. member opposite is a at~are of some serious outbreak of a forest fire somewhere in the Province,I think it his duty to inform the appropriate authorities. :·!R. NEARY: :·!R. DOODY: :<o, I want to know who is directing the operation.

I myself am not aware that cbere is any great conflagration or any great damage to life or limb or property in the Province because the air services chief has taken annual leave. As a matter of fact, I am quite positive that it would have been brought to our attention had there ~een such a forest fire or other such emergency, any such emergency. Perhaps the han. member opposite knows of some such emergency. In any event 9 the director of air operations, l1r. Simmons, is quite capable, quite competent and quite able to handle any emergency that might crop up in the absence of the director of air services.

His immediate superior, ar. O'Brien, the director of transportation,is a very capable and comptent man who has held that position for three or four or five years,and he seems to be able to handle the situation very nicely. The immediate superior to ~r. O'Brien is the deputy minister, Mr. MacDonald also a gentleman who has had considerable experience in directing the air transport and the air traffic of the government air services during the years of his service as deputy minister and prior to that as the assistant deputy minister under Mr. Knight.

All of these people, Sir, I have complete confidence in and I think the people of Newfoundland should rest assured that should a major outbreak, a forest fire ~ccur during the next several days while we are awaiting the return of the director of air services,it shall be appropriately and competently dealt with. }!R. NEARY: }!R. SPEAKER: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary.

ilay 25 , 1978 Tape :io. 3493 .P-·1 - 3 MR. ~""EARY: I am sure that i'lessrs. Si=ons and 0 'Brien it will come as a great surprise to theia to learn that they are now directing the air services because that is the first knowledge they had of it as of this moment when the minister just made his statement. HR. DOODY: !1R. NEARY: HR. DOODY: :·ik. l'i"EARY: That is not true. That is true, Sir. That is not true. The ~irector of air services directs the amount of t~e ~~licopters and airplanes go aloft and ~c forth and so on and - NR.

DOOilY: fire somewhere ;.fR. ilEARY: Is the hon. member suggesting that if there is a forest Hr. Speaker, I want to ask the i1on. gentleman if the government have yet taken - I will deal with the other IJatter later on - if the government i1ave yet - HR. DOODY: HR. ~lEARY: l·JR. DOODY: ~. liEARY: Do not wave your threatening finger at me. The han. minister is awfully touchy this morning. I have jet lag • I mentioned it earlier. Is it because of that long trip across the Atlantic or because things did not go to well on the other side? :-JR.

DOOJJY: Things were fine on the other s:!.de, It is that side that bothers me. Things were not fine. According to c:1e reports that preceeded the hon. gentleman's trip back things did not go too well. :IR. J..lOODY: ~IR. i<E.ARY: uh, you have your• messages already. I have the message and the Premier will get the message before the afternoon is over. :·IR. DOODY: ~!R. iiEARY: Ah ha! New, ~lr.

Speaker, I want to ask the hon. gentleman if the government :12.s yet taken delivery of the two Canso airplanes that were purchased in the last year by either the Department of Transoortation or the Deparonent of Forestry, a capital allowance made last year in the estimates. Have ti1ese two Canso planes been delivered to the Province yet?

!cr.:~ :.o . 34\!J .\li - 4 Ur . Speaker , one Canso plane h.:.s been cielivered t:o the Province and the ocner Canso ;>lane is 1::~ the process of bei:tg readied for delivery . liR. }lEARY: HR. SPEAKJ::R: A supplelllentary question .for the min ister , Sir . A fL;al suppleme ncary and then I ~<ill recogniz e the hon . mecber for Eagle River. ~. NEARY: Could the minister icdic.ate , Sir , to ce liouse jus t how much tnese two aircraft cost t~e public treasury, the ~h~ Canso air;>lanes? !:R. :!URP!IY: :lR.. SPEAKER: t!R. MAYNAPJl: An airplane or a box? :lo , the airplan es. The bon . miniscer .

I do not have the prec!se figu res, Mr. Speaker , ~ut l>oth of t he1:1 purc:Wse d , i:.. :~::.er words converting them

~lay 25 , 1 a 7 8 Tape 3494 :!!t. ~:AYNAPJl: from ordinary float planes into water bombers and standardizing all the equipment in the planes with the ones that we alrecdy had ccst approximately $1.2 million. AN HON. ~IEMBFR : Is that evervthin2? MR. SPEA...T<ER: I have indicated that I will recognize the hon. gentleman for Eagle River next followed by the hon. gentleman for lvindsor - Buchans. HR • STRACRA..'l' : In the absence of the Minister Labour and Han power (Hr. Rousseau), I would like to address a question to the Premier.

In vesterdav's edition of the Aurora in Labrador City,statements were made attributed to Mr. Mulroney in which he stated that if IOC continues for another Heek or so on strike 1 if the mini~g situation continues like that for a week they will close down the mines until least April or ~ay 1979. That means of course practically the death of the city; almost everything goes then.

Would the Premier state in the House here whether this statement,as far as he knows~f he has any information whether this is correct 1 and whether IOC have indicated this to the government,and whether the government is prepared to take any position on this concerning roc's stated withdrawal from the community, which is a one mining town and a very prosperous area of this Province?Re2ardless of the difficulties,labour difficulties, ~hat is the position with IOC? MR. SPEA1.'ER: The hon. Premier. PREMIER !-!OORES: lve haw had no official notification to my knowledge, Mr.

Speaker, unless the minister has - and I think I wo~ld have known if he had. We are aware of the situation and obviously and we will be in touch with IOC to get the official position,but as of yet we have not been officially notified ot that. l1R. STRACHAN: A supplementary, ~r. Speaker.

~ray 25, 1978 Tape 3494 DH - 2 MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. STRACHAN: Final supplementary, Mr. Speaker. roc has also stated a position yesterday,and again this was through the~ indicated to them by Mr. Mulroney 1 that if they did come back after May 1979 that it would not be in the form of IOCC,it would be a totally different company or different arrangement,different corporation arrangement 1 that IOC in fact would not exist.

Could the minster tell us ~~hether that statement is true or whether he has har any hint of it or whether the government has or whether there is going to be any position taken by the government on it? NR. SPEAKER: The hon. Premier. PR~!IER MOORES : Obviously, Mr. Speaker, it is hypothetic~! question because if the first official notice has to be found out first-and as I said I will be looking into it and contacting Mr. Mulroney,as I am sure the minister will as well. when we have the information we will gladly let the House know. MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. member for Windsor - Buchans followed by the hon. member for Bellevue. NR. FLIGHT: Mr.

Speaker, I want to revert back to my original question to the Minister of Consumer Affairs and Environment,but obviously the Premier had indicated he wanted the Minister of Foresty and Agriculture to answer the question, and ' that is if the minister is aware or if he is prepared to enlighten the House on the situation,on the fact that Aminocarb or Matacil is manufactured in the United States,not licensed for sale in the United States and only licensed recently for experimental purposes, but in light of that that we are buying Aminocarb and going to spray our forests with it. l!P.. SPEAKER: The hon.

Minister of Forestry and Agriculture.

!:ay 25, 1978 Tape 3494 HR. MAYNARD: I would assume he is asking the same question that has been asked a number of times by the han. member: Why are we doing it when the United States does not do it? Nr. Speaker, the simple answer is that we do not necessarily have to follow the United States. \ve have our own very thorough,very qualified pesticide control system uncer the Federal Department of Agriculture, the Federal Department of Health and lvelfare and the Pesticides t:ontrol Board,which is a joint board of federal/provincial scientists which approves of the pesticides.

I outlined in the Ho_use some weeks ago the various acts and regulations that any resticide, before it is authorized for use in Canada,~as to go through, a very rigid procedure. Matacil has gone through that procedure and because of that, because of the fact that has been approved by the Federal Department of Agriculture for aerial applications for forestry purposes in Canada, we do not have any questions about the safety of using it. l1R. FLIGHT: A supplementary, Hr. Speaker. A supplementary. ')H - 3 MR. SPEAKER: l1R.

FLIGHT: This is really a question for the Department of Consumer Affairs and Environment, for the ~·~inister of the Department of Consumer Affairs and Environment, M~. Speaker. I "ant the Hinister of the nepartment of Consumer Affairs and Environment to tell the House whether or not his officials, officials from the Department of Consumer Affa~rs and Environment, are going to do a follow~up study on the effects of the e~eri~ental spray? Are you going to do a study to determine the effects of the experimental spray program last year's spray? Are people going to be in the field now to determine the effects on

'·'ay 25, 1978 Tape No. 3495 RT-1 }fR. G. FLIGHT: the total environment, small game, fish, insects, what have you, of that program that we carried on last summer? }'F • SPEAKER : }.:!\, A. MURPHY : SO¥E HON. }'D!BERS: JAR. A. }'URPHY: Hon. ~inister of Environment. 1-'"r. Speaker - Hear, hear! I thank the hen. member for using his courtesy and respect in addressing the question.

I think the same question was asked yesterday about the committee set-up and if they <Jere competent to judge it and I had this answer here for the hon. member that I <Jould include in the overall. ftn environmental monitoring committee was set up representing three Provincial and three Federal resource protection agencies as well as the Department of Health and ~emorial University. Each member of the committee was a professional scientist. No one in this Province was better qualified than these persons to design, oversee, interpret and report on the respective segments of the project.

Since the study coincided with the period when university students were available,it was decided to select qualified students to carry out the field '"ork for the project. These students were chosen on the basis of high academic standing and/or previous experience, and were put through an intensive training program before beginning their duties.

Their work Pas supervised regularly by a post-doctoral scientist from "emorial t'niversity, and we feel there is no need to imply the members of the committee or any other professional scientists in carrying out field 1vork which consisted mainly of routine sampling - This was the question the gentleman asked me yesterday, if I felt that the people who collected the samples were competent. }'R. C:. FLIGHT: That is the question I asked yesterday. It has nothing to do lvith the question -

•·ay 25, 1978 Tape No. 3495 R.T- 2 ~. A. "U'P.PHY : All data

interpretation >Vas done by committee members, not by the students. 1-'P. G. FLIGHT: Supplementary, Nr. Speaker. ¥R. SPEAKER: Supplementary. ~- G. FLIGHT: What I want the ~inister to tell the House is whether. or not specialists from his Department are going to do a study and determine the effects, adverse effects, of the spruce budt•orm experimental spray program that took place last summer, this year now, no•·' that c.e have gone through eight to ten months post-spray.

And I have been told by knowledgeable people that in order to determine the effects on snall game, fish, the total environment, we need to go in nqw, go back into the area sprayed and determine the extent of the wildlif~ and the extent of the insects, the birds and the fish. NoF v.·hat I am asking the }'inister, is he going to undertake to have that kind of a study done now to determine the long range effects on the total environment of the spray program carried out last year? Now that is a very clear question, Hr. Speaker. l':R. A. ~'FPHY: The ansr•er is very clear, Nr.

Speaker, if I may. w~ have set up a committee of people who are capable, some eleven people - HR. G. FLIGHT: Are they going in this year? }~. A. '1-'llRPHY: - who took the whole picture last year; this year the same group will be operating. We are jncreasing the number of people in t he f i eld, who would be senior students to compile and co l lect ~'hat data is availablet then it is brought to laboratories. So anymore than that - and the adverse effects, we have not had any adverse effects to any great degree. I am just reporting what my officials tell me.

It is not my opinion; it is the opinion of these competent,professional people whose job it is to interpret it. Now I do not know who the expe r t is ~rho gives the hon. member the information,but possibly that expert might confer

.,... ' ~l a y 25 , 1 9 78 Tape ?lo . 3495 P.T - 3 ~'R • A • m'RPRY : with our experts, and ~erhaps he might be able to tell them what is happening. MR. ~. FLIGHT: Supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Final supplementary, and then the han. member for Bellevue. MR. G. FLIGHT: I am going to try once more, ~r. Speaker. This is too important an issue to be glossed over the way it has been. ~'r. Speaker - ''R . A. ~!tTF.PHY: I agree ~·rith you. It has been made political hay of. HR. FLIGHT: - I asked a simple question. The statement that the ~<inister just read indicates to the House ~•hat ~·rill happen.

That is the committee that is going to monitor the 1978 spray program. I am not asking the minister that. I am asking the minister if he is going to send some members of that committee, or anyone from his department, in to do an assessment of the area sprayed in 1977 to determine the long-term effects of the chemicals used in that particular area? Mow, are we going to have a re- examination in 1978 of the area sprayed in 1977 to determine the long-term effects on the total ecology?

Are we going to have - Is the nepartment of Environment going to determine, by sending their people into the field in the area sprayed last vear, the effects, either beneficial or adverse on the environ ment of the blocks s!'rayed? Now that is simple. !m.. SPEAKER: Hon. minister. MR. A. MURPHY: It sounds simple to the han. member. It does not sound - I j ust answered the question that we had a group of people set up renresenting three Provincial, three Federal resource protection agencies, as well as the Department of Heali:h and ~<emorial University, eleven people in all,

,...:'.~· 25. 1978 Tape 1\!o . 34<'6 '·ffi.. 'f\JRPHY: to survey or to anuraise the evidence that was brought beck from the spray programme. MR. FLIGHT: Last year. MR. ~RPHY: Last year, 1977. And the same thing is ha~pening this year. The only thing is we are just about doubling t~e uumber of people in the field to collect ~re samples and bring it bad;. to this same committee, or a sinilar ccnwit:tee.. .c':.n:,r::ore t::.aT:. t:!at I canr:.ot explain. T:1e 'i1on. :."'le.::tbe.r for I.ellevue . ~!r. Speaker, I intended to c.sk t~~c Premier a question but he is not in his seat at tile noment.

Re had been t~ere all afternoo~- In the w.bsenc.e of t:11.~ Prer.tier, :~r. Si)eal: e r, perhc.ps the "!i:J.ister of Trans?ortatiou and Caii!!ilunicatioas, who raprase~tad Cabinet,I understand,in Europe, can answer this question. I underst~nd that the First Arabian Corporatio~ have shown some interest in acquiring ~~e oil refinery at Come By Chance, Could the mi::~istar confirm whether this is true or not? ~1!! .• SPEAKER: and Corcw.unications. ~'!R. DOODY: The han. :linister of Transportation I am not quite sure if I caught the first part of the question or not.

I think it was - Is it true t hat the First Arabian Corporation have shown some interest i n acquiring the facilities at Corne By c:,ance1 !!? .• CALLA~!: Right . UR. DOODY: Yes, ~lr. Speaker, During the meetir,gs in London over the past t~m days the holders of the first mortgage through the receiver have informed us that they are carrying on conversations with the First Arabian Corporatio~ toward the objective of signing a letter of intent with the ultimate hope of getting an agreement whereby the First Arabian CorporAtion would reactivate the facili t y and have an or..goii•g operation out t~1ere, a refiner;.

This is very, very far fro"!!! the realization of that objective but the talks are onp;oing. The first tr.ortgagees

· cay 25, 1978 ·~·?.pe ~~o. 3495 :m. DOODY: seem to be encouraged by the trend of the discussions and they have undertaken to keep the Province informed as they move along. ~<e have' informed them of course that our first and only object here in the Province of Newfoundland is to look after the interests of the Province of Ne,Jfoundland.

They are well aware of that and hopefully ''e will be kept informed as 11e have been assured that 'N'e ~>rould, and as they come closer to the hope for realization of the lat~er of intent, leading ultimately to a contract, ,.,e 11ill be in a position to answer further questio:J.s and bring more information before the House and before the people. We hope that it will not be one of these abrupt thin~s like the Ultramar situation "~>7hich caught us at a t''enty-four hour bit and piece and it was most unfortunate. ::lR • SPEAKER: A suppletlentary. !1R. CALLAN: Mr.

Speaker, can I assume then, is the minister saying that the First Arabian Corporation may have :1ot yet produced a •..ritten guarantee that they have the money necessary to repair ana reactivate the refinery? They have not produced that yet'? HR. DOODY: That is an accurate assumption, Sir. That is quite true. They have not satisfied all of the questions that have been raised by the holders of the first ~ortgages througi1 t:1e receiver.

There <1re a nunber of questions that have still to be anSI·Tered to satisfy these people and until such time as these are in !'lace then the letter of intent cannot be signed and vhen these things are in place hopefully we will be in a position to supply some more information.

' !a:· ~5. 1?78 ORDERS 0~ tHE D~Y : Y!'.. HICKMAN: 1-l".ot:ion, the ~0:1. the ~ ~nister of Justice co int roduce a bill, ''An Act: :tespecting Elections, Controverted Elections And Elections Financing For '·!embers Of ~e Eouse of Assembly," carried . (Bill No . 53) "'""'-' - .'l On mot ion , Sill No . 53 rea d a first t:~e ordered read a second time on toMorrc~. :ration 10. Fisile r ies ta i.ntroctuce a bill , "An A.:.t To .~enC: The Fish l:lspect:ion Act , " carried . (Bill *o. 45) On ~~ t ion , ~ ill ~o . 45 reac a f irst ci::~e , o r i~rcc r eaC: a saco.\d tin:a o:t : o:::orro\7 . : \:!'. • E!!

C!~!Ac{ : !-fo t ion ll . :~o:::ion, the hon. t~e !linister of :!unicipal ilfairs and !'!.ousi11g to introduce a bill, "A."l Act To i::s tablisb Tlle ~To rt h east Avalon Orban Region," carried. (Bill No . 50) On motion, Bill No. sa, read a first time, orde::ec! read a second time on tomorroli.' .

May 25, 1978, Tape 3497, Page 1 -- apb MR. HICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, before calling Orders of the Day, with the unanimous consent of han. members it is agreed that this House not adjourn at six o'clock, and that the Late Show,which normally would commence at five-thirty,will commence at seven-thirty and that han. gentlemen have until seven o'clock to advise Your Honour of any matters they would like to debate at the Late Show.

This will enable us to still get in the number of working hours, or substantially the number of working hours that we want to get in, and would normally get in and at the same time it will allow hon. gentlemen to perform other duties. And those of us who do not have to perform other duties tonight will join all the rest of our fellow Newfoundlanders in watching a contest. I have forgotten the name of that contest but I believe it is called hockey. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, we concur with the proposal put forward by the han. gentleman, Sir, and if it is just a coincidence that there happens to be a hockey game on tonight we cannot help that. I will not be able to watch it tonight myself until later on, I have another commitment and some of my colleagues have other commitments, but if there are people who do not have commitments in the House who happen to be free to watch the hockey game, well, I say more power to them~ They are only doing what every other Canadian and every other Newfoundlander is doing and I hope there will not be any criticism about that from anybody.

ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. SPEAKER: Order 3. The adjourned debate on the Budget. The hon. member for Burgee -Bay d' Espoir. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, I cannot let the occasion pass without first making a comment in relation to

May 25, 1978, Tape 3497, Page 2 -- apb MR. SIMMONS: the Question Period today which, I believe, bears very much on the concerns we ought to be talking about in this House. We are having some difficulty doing it, particularly with all the meetings going on right now. Mr. Speaker, I am referring in particular to the Minister of the Environment. I, Mr. Speaker, in the time I have been in this House, and colleagues have been here longer- the member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary), the member for Twillingate (Mr. W.N.Rowe), the member for Fogo (Capt.

Winsor} - and they tell me they have never seen such an abdication of responsibility as we saw displayed by the Minister of the Environment today, a total abdication of responsibility on a very serious issue. I know, perhaps, Mr. Speaker, with his travels limited to st. John's and Sarasota and such places that he probably does not realize the very genuine gut-concern there is around Gander, and Denton and Glenwood and on the West Coast and other parts of the Province, genuine concern on the part of people who are wondering whether after this Summer they are going to have drinking water fit to drink.

That is the issue. They want to know if they are going to be poisoned by their own tax money. They want to know if they are financing some kind of a mass - I was going to say homicide but that might be too strong a term in the short run, but given the questions which relate to this spruce budworm spray then perhaps it is not too drastic a term in the long run. Yet, Mr. Speaker, with all the unknown about this chemical spray programme, all we get from the Minister of the Environment is stunned arrogance, absolute arrogance, unadulterated arrogance. Callous! I have never seen anybody so callous about a subject, Mr.

Speaker. Never have I seen a man so callous about the welfare of people.

May 25, 1978, Tape 3497, Page 3 -- apb MR. SIMMONS: Absolutely contemptuous! Absolutely beyond any excuse at all. Callous, uncaring, the minister is obviously completely out of touch with an area that is affecting or going to affect thousands upon thousands of Newfoundlanders in the months ahead and 1 perhaps more frightfully, in the years ahead. He is obviously out of touch. Why does the Premier not do us all a favour, Mr. Speaker? Why does he not flick the Minister of the Environment out of the Cabinet altogether? Why does he not get rid of him get rid of him him while there is time?

He is costing the taxpayers of this Province unnecessary dollars. He is doing nothing for his keep, nothing whatsoever even when given an opportunity by my colleagues on this side of the House to do something, to give a bit of information along environmental lines. They were not asking him today any nusiance questions, Mr. Speaker, they were voicing the concerns of thousands of people. I was out of the city in the last day or so on some other meetings and I was surprised at the airports, the numbers of people who will come up to you and want to talk about this particular issue.

It is almost the number one or two or three topic that people talk about now. When they come up to you and they recognize you are a member of the House, of course, and they begin talking about the various issues, in no tL~e at all they hit on the spruce budworm discussion. Very quickly they raise the issue. People this morning mentioned it to me in Deer Lake Airport, for example. They mentioned it only yesterday to me in the airport at Gander. They raise the issue and raise it spontaneously

\, Y.ay 25 , 19 78 Tape 3498 DH - 1 !1R. Slll!-!ONS: and they wonder and the question I say for the ~tinister of Consumer Affairs and Environment, the ~tinister of Forestry and Agriculture, the ~linister of Health and·the PrGmier, the question that is put in one form or another is - Are they really going ahead?

Are they really going ahead' ,ftPt' all lve have heard about it, after all the doubts t!lat have expressed about it, after the shortage of answers which is now evident from today's Question Period alone? 'T'hese people out there 1.rho have to drink the water from Gander Lake without knowing whether it is going to be conta;ilinated this SUlmller 1 they are asking are they really going ahead after all the evidence and all the frustration that has been expressed?

Last year's experimental period was very inconclusive.Indeed 1it now emerges that the experimentation did not get beyond the production of raw results,that there has been no real analysis yet,no definitive analysis of the expertmental period last year. That is what we are hearing now.

And so we are led to believe now,in the absence of answers from the ~nister of Consumer Affairs and Environment,we are led to believe that the so-called experimental period last year was just a stage in a gearing- up project j that it ~.ras not experimental at all, that they did an experiment in the sense that they •ranted to get usec.l to using the equipment and that kind of thing. But this suggestion that it was experimental from a standpoint of determining the effect on t~e countryside and on people, this is a lot of nonsense,that is misleading the people of this Province, Mr.

Speaker, again with their own tax money. He find now that is not the case,that there are no definitive results, there is no definitive analysis of last year's experimental programme except frorr the standpoint of an operation.

'cay 25 , 19 78 ':'ape 349~ ~n - 2 They have now learned hovr to administer the poison more efficiently. MR. J. CARTER: Poison vourseJf~ ~ !R. SIJ'1MONS: Mr. Speaker, there he js, there he is, Hx. Speaker, the member for St. John's North (}!r. J. Carter) quoting Shakespeare most of the time-r wish he would go back to Shakespeare he would be much more eloquent- but even Shakespeare, }1r. Speaker, in his -:liobolical moments could not invent a character like the member for St. J ohn's ~l orth. SOl1E RON • ~-1BERS : Oh, oh! HR. SIMMONS: Then again, Mt. Spea k er, if the member for St.

John's North did not exist we would have to invent l!R. J. CARTER: ~!R. SIMMONS: That is right! We would have to invent him because he is for all Newfoundland and Labrador, Mr. Speaker, an example, a clear,undeniable example to every Newfoundlander, every Labradorian in this Province,an example of what not to be. &'l RON • !1EMBER: (Inaudible) ! ~ . • S~ON S: Mr. Speaker, so we have tva members, the member for St. John's Centre (Mr. A. l ~urphy) an <:l the member for St. John's North e1r. J. Carter),both representing great f orests;y distri cts.

I can understl!lnd that they f i nd this a joke , this whole business of the sprayin g programme - AN HON. ~!E~<:BER: I find the hon. gentleman's attitude a joke, because - ~!R. SIM110NS : Oh! ~LI{. RIDEOUT: Tell him to go .,ack to his seat.Go bad: to y our seat .. MR. Sll!MONS: That is the first move,certainly. MR . SPEAKER: The hon. member for St. John's Noxth.

:ray25, 1978 Tape 3498 l1R. J. ~ARTER : Mr. Speaker, the hen. gentlmen representing the official Opposition standpoint on this spray programme cannot seem to 'Jllake up their minds. One time they were all hot for some kind of snravin2. Not~ that the ll:overnment has decided to spray, they are all very stron·gly against it. <ir': RIDEOUT: That is not true. ~m.. J. CARTER: I wish th(,y would make up their minds - :U{ . 17 . ;',Of·!E : In the first place , t~at is not true . HR. J. CARTER: Obviously no one pretends for a moment that spraying is the final answer for the forest, but we have t!o do something.

Is~ \e content to see them rlestro,red? MR. DOODY: MR. F. ROWE: r:R. J . CARTER: HR.. SIMMONS: To spray or not to spray? li!hat about the- That is the qu~stion. The member for St. John's North will have his full opportunity to speak.and I hope in addition to quoting Shakespeare,because Shakespeare did not say a lot about Hatacil - MR. DOODY: SOME RON. ~~ERS: YR. s~~{o:rs: He talked about asses. Oh, oh! ~~e court jester is back from T'lJ - 3 Claridges temporarily, AN RON. ~ER: HR. NEARY: ~- s~<Jm~s: He is back from Claridges temporarily. He did not 2et to ~~xim's this time .

Now I would like when~the member for St. John's North stands up to speak to talk about the alternative,that is what we are trying to get his colleagues tc do-~ere are alternatives.I flew with my colleagues for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) and Windsor - Buchans (Mr. Flight) and Baie Verte White Bay (Hr. Rideout) last year over some of the forest

l'ay 25, 1978 Tape 3498 !:'!·!- 4 MR. STI~!ONS: on the Hest Coast and it '-ras pointed out to us that a large percentage was affected seriously, adversely by the spruce budworm. But it was also pointed out to us that a very large percentage was very overmature. It has been siti:ing

~1:t. sr:r:~o~s : teu years beyond its :~arvesting tine. And the pain~ we nak.:>. O" this is that before you rus:, iuto something that has proven to be less than a lesson in ~ew llrunswicc<,for example- :•ou cannot deny that,I say to the member for St. John's c!orth (Hr. J. Carter) let us at least exhaust the alternatives a!J.d then if there are no alternatives let us get a safe spray. Our argument on it is twofold: One, the alternatives have not been exhaustec, alternat:!.ves have not been exhau:;ted, nucber one; and tHo, 1ve are not at all sure whether we are using a safe che;nical.

Indeed we are very unsure on that particular subject; the testing is still in the ex;:-cri:nental stages for tllis partic ,~lar chemical called ~!atac:il. 1.nd t:J.et is cur concer•··· The black and ''hite version that t:1.e hon. gentleman fro!'l St. John's c1orth ('-fr. J. Carter) projects - :~. J. CARTER: tinaudible). ~'X. SI~NONS: There is no black version I can make callous decisions, spray and take the consequences, or I can ask some questions. '~e can buy some t:il!le as e people. He can say, "Let us :io the alternatives.

Let us cut some of the over nature, some of the affected stands end in the meantime let us satisfy ourselves that the spray is safe.'' Now look, the member does not have to listen to me on this. I will quote to him one of his 01~ colleagues on this very subject. ~!R. J . CARTER: 111'.. SI:~1oNs: Is the han. eentlemen being - VE'gue (inaudible). If the member were there,yes. Would the member for St. John's North (Hr. J. Carter) for example, spray ~!atacil on his savoury patch'? SOME HON. ~HBERS: Oh, oh!

No, no. Not depend. Is he satisfied that it is safe enough to spray on something that is edible? ~ffi.. J. CARTER: I ~auld not do it (inaudible). ~ffi.. S I~·mONS : Here 1ve go. He is hedging, o!r. Speaker. He is doing the thin!!; he accused us of a moment ago. P.:e \-TOuld be better off hedging his patch, Mr. Speaker. ~:IlL NEARY: MR. S~~ONS: Mr. Speaker, I quote his colleague - Oh, oh! That is very funny, you know. Very funny. All the people in Gander are laughing their heads off at the member and the member for St. John's Centre ('(r. ~1u~hy). They are very amused, 'rer:r amused.

The Gander To'm Council are r;oing to see\( an injunction, are a'rf'-!lly amused ~vith the savoury patch farmer. He finds it all so funny. MR. J. CARTER: MR. SDtMONS: They are not going to take any silly chances. Hmv about the silly chances t':ley are taking out on the airport run~ay in Stephenville where the stuff is running all over the runway, where the cans are beaten up, where it is not supposed to be stored outdoors at all? Do not talk to me about silly chances. Hm~ can it hurt? Read t)1~ manual. '1R. J. CARTER: Those crops .?.re growin; nicely. MR. SP"'!ONS: Some :'eople are. trying to ~rO~·T out.

MR. 'tffii'!E: People live there, boy, people. ~. SI'1l-!ONS: Some people are trying to zrow out there. The Hinister of Forestry is not hel,ing very Much. The ~~inister of Health is not hel!'ing very much. But then ap;ain ~re have trouble getting him out of bed excep ~ \·':1en he falls. T;le bedriciden Hinister of Health the other day tz.lking about the spruce

-~- ., . ··: - ::n. sr:::cxs: ... , __ _h_. .., s -"i.:, "I:l suo:nary, I t:i.;h to ::1ake it perfectlY. clea r," - the last :nan •.+.o said that hac ::o resi g-.1 his off ice as was President of ti:e t.'::.ited States - " In suc.mary, I wish to '!lake it perfectly .::laa1: that government in cct:".ing to a decision :<as :-:ac to weigh t he need to tal~ steps to conserve our fo r est resou r ces through possible adv erse effects to health resulting from suci1 sp1:ayin ~." Is ::1e oeeJ to cor:.serve t!'le forest,; e~ai:'l st the likeli~ood :1e Cid :lot say ::be iopo ssibilicy , he admits the r e is the likelinood . lie took on the one hand the need to conserre the forests for ecor:.omic reaso .ns cmd on t~e other !:and he too k che lil>e11:1ood, t:~esa are ilis ·.~orcs , h.2 too~ t~ C! likel.!.l·.ood of adverse <:ff:lc t s t.o health resulting from the spray .

F.e ::ook t~se :;.oro factors and he el e cte d t!1e forest ove r the people. He admits L• his statement that tilere is a likeli :.ood . He is no t satisfie .d to t he point ::hat !\e can come out and say there is no possibility t 1~ at it is col!!pletely safe . The l-!iuister of Eealt:1 , the c.."ti.ef custodian of health services in this Prov i nce , admi ts taat there is a likelL~ood of adverse affects on the health of people ~ and ye t ~~ says , noc-.. "i:::lsta:ld:ing tha t, I :tave decidec! to opt fo r woods rat her

. ia.y 25,197 o Tape 3500 :.-m.. SliJ::ONS: absolutely shameful, 21r. Speaker, that vie should ;la·te that kind of a statement, that kind of an admission from the ;.rinis ter of the Crown - HR. jEARY: li'hat vlas it he actually said there then, that Lle was not sure? Is t!1at what he said? HR. SUJHONS: Well,he admitted to the likelihood of adverse effects. He says "The likelihood - HR. :·<EARY: The Minister of Health? riR. SDJCiu::IS: auverse effects to The }finister of Health.

"The likelihood of possible i1ealth resulting from such spraying." Fiavin2; admitted to that, having considered ti1e economic factors;'he said, "I cnoose" - ~!R. NEARY: I wonder what the member for St. John 1 s North U1r. J.Carter) has to say about that? Wl.J. CARTER: population (Inaudible) AN i:iON :IE!BER: ,fR. S li"!MONS: Your savory capers - Well, Mr. Speaker, here is the old St.John's, the old city attitude again. If it is less than ten or fifteen thousand, what is four or five or seven thousand people in Gander? populated. rnat is just a few people out there. That is not SOME HON. i•IE!•!BERS: A.~ HON.

MEHBER: Topsails. ~JR. SniNONS: Oh, oh: (Inaudible) people out in Gaff . We are not talking Z.bout Gaff Topsails. We are talking about the Gander Lake water supply, '"'e are talking about one-su;:th of a wile from a water supply down around Gloverta,m. Do not tell me that is the Gaff Topsails.I k .. ""low the meDber does not know his geography but he knows the Gaff Topsails is not around Gander or Glovertown. I hope he knows that. i:fR. 'mARY: llR. S!l!HONS: Or Gallants or Stephenville. I may have to send him a map, too, Hr. Speaker. I wish the member did not display sucn stunnedness on this one, c·1r. Speaker.

We are talking about people in Glovertown - was it Glovertown

.Izy 25 ,197o iiR. sr:·i:'lO:ls: A.."l hO:'. :·!E.-illER: l1R. SDJMONS: supply . AN HON .l>JEMBER: ~!R. SI!-JHONS: Tape 3500 the otheJ: day? Port Blandford. Port Blandford - one-sixth of a mile from their water No sensible rilot is going to fly over populated areas. And that is the saving grace. The member reminds us of the saving grace that no sensible pilot is going to carry out this harum­ scarum scheme of the !linister of Forestry•And that is the saving grace and that is what we have going for us, Hr. Speaker, that the pilots are not going to fly tl1is :wmicide missions.

The pilots are refusing to fly these homicide missions, Hr. Speake.r,and that is the saving grac~, Wheather it is the Glovertown, or the Port Blandford water supply or the Gander-Ber,ton-Glenwooci ••ater supply, that is the saving grace. But we should not nave to depend on the discretion of pilots in this matter when we are dealing with government funded projects, we should depend on the responsibilitY of thP Mini~tP~ nf. Forestry,except we have have learned long since that we cannot depend on that man's responsibility.

Perhaps some day we will tell you the story about the Wine Cellar, Is that not an interesting story? The Minister of Forestry would like to hear that one I am sure. MR.NEARY: We will deal with that in due course. HR. SIHHONS: The Hinister of Forestry in one of his more responsible moments, late one night in the Wine Cellar in Corner Brook. TI1at is quite .e. story. l·IR. ~ffiARY: :-fR. SI! .iHONS: i<o wonder we reduced nis salary to $1.00, Shameful! Absolutely sil<W~eful what •~ent on out there! Absolute:~ shaceful! And then they kept him in the Cabinet anci now he is inflicting more on us. :4ot only on us, tfr.

Speaker, we are the apposition- I can understand them being very affrontive and arrogant with us. But the people of the Province, the people who have to dring the water in Gander Lake after this season is over and this spray programme has been undertaken,

May 25, 1978 Tape 3501 EC - 1 MR. SIMMONS: he Department of Fisheries in this Province has no policy on the fishery, no policy beyond spitting out the daily press release, no policy on the fishery. The Minister of fisheries is boycotting the opportunity to formulate a policy on the fisheries in this Province. Re is boycotting the opportunity, every chance he gets he boycotts it.

I pointed out on Tuesday that he boycotted a major conference dealing with the fisheries of Atlantic Canada in Halifax with some of the top people from the fishing industry and all aspects of it attending that conference, people from Norway and Germany and England, the United States and Canada; fish industry people, shipping people, shipbuilding people, banking people who are investing in the fishing industry. They boycotted the conference altogether, they were not even there. This minister, Mr. Speaker, is going beyond having no policy.

I can understand his predecessor, the present Minister of Health, having no policy. I can understand that, because his idea of fishing was the Gander River on the 24th of May. I can understand his having no policy, I can excuse him. I can excuse the former member for St. John's West in terms of policy because he just was so out of touch with the resource industries of this Province that he could not be expected to have any kind of a policy.

But now we are talking about the present Minister of Fisheries, a man who has done much to associate himself with the fishing industry, who works really hard at it, but he has no policy, and beyond having no policy he boycotts every opportunity he has to even begin developing a policy on the fishing industry in this Province. He and his Department of Fisheries are being upstaged every day of the week by a very aggressive

May 25, 1978 Tape 3501 EC - 2 MR. SH!MONS: Nova Scotia Department of Fisheries, upstaged every day. He gets frustrated about that and he blames it on the feds. And I will be the first to say to him that I dare say the feds are a part of his problem. I dare say they are. I have great respect for Mr.

LeBlanc and I believe he is very much in touch with the problems of the Atlantic fishery, but having said that, I reiterate something I feel very strongly; that policy at the federal level,whether fisheries policy or any resource policy or any kind of a development policy, is too centrally oriented and their concerns, whether you have a Liberal Government in Ottawa or a Tory Government or an N.D.P. Government, their concerns, their priorities are all towards Central Canada and they have difficulty realizing that the St.

Lawrence Seaway is not the Canadian boundary on the East side, a very great difficulty realizing that. And I am sure that attitude, that mentality, spills over into fisheries policy as well. So I would be the first to admit to the Minister of Fisheries that a part of his problem may well be the federal Fisheries attitude and the general federal attitude towards this Province and towards Atlantic Canada. But another part of his problem is his deliberate boycotting of every opportunity he is given to develop a policy on the fishery.

Another part of his problem is that he is being regularly upstaged by a very inovative, very aggressive fisheries policy on the part of the Department of Fisheries in Nova Scotia. They are very aggressive, they are very innovative, they are very in touch with the situation. They have the latest in knowledge, the latest in expertise, the most advanced in technology, and they have the get-up-and-go to get out there and develop and push a fisheries policy, almost force a fisheries policy on the rest of Canada and on the

1·Iay 25, 1978 Tape 3501 EC - 3 ~IR. S nntONS : federal government . And :.~hat cio we have here sitting in the very center of the greatest fish resource in the wo rld? We have a minister ~ho is content with hearing his name on the radio e~ery morning . All he cares is he can hear, 'The bon . Walter Carter said, da-da, da-da, da-da . ' Re does not care what it is as long as he said som e thi~g on the radio today and tomorrow morning. And if you read the garbage ce comes in here with, Mr. Speaker, it is contradictory, absolutely contradictory from day to day, but that matters not to that minister, Mr .

Speaker - he said something. Because you see, !r. Speaker , what he is really doing is not mouthing a policy, not giving voice to a set of orchestrated or co-ordinated concerns in the fishery, be is doing at all . Let us not that is not what

:~ay ~5, 2.97:: Tape :io. 35CJ2 !'!R. S!M:'JlNS: be deceived by this :!inister of Fisheries 0 All he is doing, and my colleague put it ~·rell today during the Question Period, all he is doing is using every opportunity he can to :nouth off and to be identified ·.lith that magic thing called fisheries ~vhich suddenly has gained some respectability in this Province,thank God, and it is respectable now to be associated ~vith fish. It is respectable to be associated With fishermen. It is respectable to be associated ~vith the fis~"ling industry.

Even the banking people, the financial people are finding t1lat it is a respectable,safe bet no~• to invest in the fishery. So what is the minister doing? He is, l·~r. Speaker, doing no more and no less, our Minister of Fisheries, doing no more and no less than riding on the oilskin coattails of the fishermen of this Province, riding an their oilskin coattails.

That is what he is doing, riding on the oilskin coattails of the fishermen of this Province, riding on the policy of the federal government, generally a good policy, but it needs to be tailored more to our particular needs here in Atlantic Canada, here in Newfoundland and Labrador. He is riding on the success of Otta•m in implementing the 200 mile limit with all its implications for the potential of the fishery in the years down the road, riding on the coattails of Ottawa and riding on the oilskin coattails of the fishermen of Newfoundland and Labrador. :1r.

Speaker, none is so deaf as he who will not hear and I fear the ~inister of Fisheries falls into that category. He may not want to hear what we are saying on this side about the fishery. He may not want to admit that we have said to him on many occasions, and I said to him on Tuesday, and I say to him again today- he and his gover~ent have no policy, no co-ordinated policy on the fishery. They have a lot of disjointed, disconnected ideas about the fishery, some of which, if integrated into an overall policy, ~~auld h<!ve same validity, 1-rould have

-r I Tc.pe "lo. 350~ :::! - 2 :~. SI~ONS: some value, would have some real potential to help the fishermen and the flshing industr; of this Province. Like the trawler programme,for example, that the Premier has announced again and again and again, announced it back in 19731I remember,in the Hermitage by-election in the Fall of that year. Whatever happened to that trawler programme?

Neither ship was ever built and today the fleets on t!le South Coast and the Southwest Coast are working with even nore dilapidated, obsolete, outdated equipment because one of t!le prongs in a ~~uld-be policy of this government never got beyond the announcement stage, So I want to be clearly understood on this one, Mr. Speaker.

I represent a fishing: district, Half of the population of my district depend almost completely on the fishery, the communities of Burgee, Ramea, Grey River, to some extent, Franchois and ~acCallum, four of these communities very completely and the fifth, Grey River, somewhat, a dozen or fifteen men involved in the inshore and trawler fishery altogether. Those people depend on t.he fis;1ery, inshore,and the bank fishery for a livelihood. Their livelihood could be all the moTe prosperous if they had the proper equipment to 1;ork with.

The Premier had the answer on t!1at partic"L.lar aspect of a would-be nolicy when he a!lilOUnced the tra1vler progra=e four or five years ago in Harbour Breton. But it c1as never gotten beyond the announcement stage. So today, my ~eople in Bur~eo -Bay d'Espoir, and people in other fishing districts in this Province,are less well off. They are earning less than they could because they do not have the equipment to work with. Is it any wonder, ~r.

Speaker, that they are having difficulty competing with the Nova Scotia fleets~for example, another fleet,if I understand correctly,which is having some problems with equipment, but a fleet at the same ti.;ne Hhich is the benefactor of certain steps that h.ave been taken by the ~ova Scotia Government to upgrade, to update the fleet in that Province. ·.

May 25, 1978 Tape 3503 PK - 1 Mr. Simmons: Mr. Speaker, I want to be clearly understood on this one. The Minister of Fisheries from time to time has made announcements that have merit, that have merit if they were integrated into an overall policy. But as he does things in this scatter fashion, all these various announcements and these various little Band-Aid programmes do is have the effect of bridging the gap,as it were, or have the effect of undoing the last programme. They tend to counterbalance, to cancel _ out each other,because there is no co-ordinated, integrated fisheries policy by this government. None.

None whatsoever. Again, Mr. Speaker, you do not have to take my word for it. Go back and take the word of the first Minister of Fisheries under this administration, Mr. Roy Cheeseman, who was the Minister of Fisheries for the first year this government was in office, He was the Minister of Fisheries actually from March 1972 - to be correct about it, the first Minister of Fisheries was the Premier, T~p Premier held the Portfolio for a couple of months from late January and February and early March until after the election. And then after the March election , of 1972, Mr.

Cheeseman was elected in the district of Hermitage that I subsequently represented before redistribution. And from March 1972 until March 1973,for one year almost to the day, Mr. Cheeseman was the first full-time Minister of Fisheries, and the second minister if you keep in mind that the Premier was actually the first Minister of Fisheries, while at the same time, of course, being Premier. And that first full-time Minister of Fisheries, Mr.

Roy Cheeseman,spent a year in that Cabinet, and then he resigned in March 1973, and the Premier at that time made a statement that the Minister of Fisheries had resigned for personal reasons. MR. NEARY: No, he blamed it on me, because I had given him a flick the night before in the House. MR. SIMMONS: MR. NEARY: MR. SIMMONS: You got the blame for that,too? I got the blame for that too. You get the blame for so many things,I say to my colleague, he gets the blame for so many things that it is difficult to remember all the things that he has been blamed for.

May 25, 1978 Tape 3503 PK - 2 MR . NEARY: He said it is hard for a minister, a man who served tn public life, always being under attack. ~1R. SIMMONS: MR. NEARY: MR. SIMMONS: Who said that? Moores or the - Moores. The Premier at that time said it was for personal reasons and because the minister was under attack from my colleague. Well that was in March '73. But in November '73, six months after, or whatever it is, seven months - MR. NEARY: A by-election was called. MR.

SIMMONS: - there was a by-election and the election was to be on the Monday,! believe,and on the preceeding Thursday, about four or five days before the by-election, the former Minister of Fisheries, Mr. Cheeseman, went on an open line radio show and the announcer, the moderator there, Mr. Howie Hickman of Grand Bank at the time, said to him, "14r. Cheeseman, now look, why did you resign?" Then we heard it. MR : NEARY: MR. SIMMONS: MR . NEARY: If you remember I called him on the phone. When we were on the open line. We were down in Camp !3oggy. I called him on the open line. MR. SIMMONS: That is right.

And he told us and told the public, the Province, or that part of the Province that was listening, and it was subsequently broadcast all over the Province, Mr. Cheeseman said then that he had resigned for a couple of reasons: One, because that crowd, or he referred to them as them I think, were so busy talKing about urban problems, and he mentioned overpasses and highways and that kind of stuff, that thev never had time to talk about rural Newfoundland; and then he mentioned that they were not at all interested in talking about fi.sheries policy.

May 25, 1978 Tape No. 3503 NM - 3 MR. SIMMONS: Now that is on the public record, and I am sure the tape probably still exists . It is on the public record .. I think it appeared in the papers a day or two after.

That is the Minister of Fisheries himself for a year saying, "The reason I got out is because I could not get them to talk about fisheries policies." Now when we hear about the shenanigans the Premier has been involved in ever since he got in power, between Scrivener and Dobbin and Walsh and all the rest of them, I can understand .... and Mclean and McConnell-I can understand that he would not have time to talk to a fellow called Cheeseman. I can understand he would not have time to talk about fisheries policy. And that is what is wrong with this government, Mr.

Speaker, not that they lack ideas, but they are so busy falling over each other lining their pockets, lining the oockets of their friends, feathering their nests, so busy doing that· that they have not got time, Mr. Speaker, to talk about the needs of Newfoundland. And that is why it is not at all out of character what the public was given a treat to this afternoon from the Minister of Environment . . That is not out of character, Mr. Speaker, what ~Je saw today. That is in character.

A problem that affects drinking water, a problem that affects the health of people, "Do not talk to me about that," he says, "we are too interested in other things. We are too interested in

~fay 2 5 , 19 7 8 Tape 3504 EC - 1 MR . Sim_!ONS : beefing up our big, fat pensions when we leave this House. MR. NEARY: The member for Kilbride, look, confirms that in that transcript. MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, what is going on here? MR. SIHMONS: I say to the member for Bonavista South, I do not believe there is any rule against having to table what you read to yourself while you are standing at the mike, besides which, 'Steve', I could not - I mean, I could not - the man is not even in the House now to start with. MR. NEARY: I will get you another one. MR.

SIMMONS: He is not even in the House now, but I mean, the language alone there, eh? MR. NEARY: All right, that is the member for Kilbride (Mr. Wells) now we are talking about - MR. SIMMONS: The member for Kilbride. The diocese will be looking for a new chancellor if they heard that kind of language. HR. NEARY: Bold on now, I will get you another one. UR. SIMMONS: No, we will wait. If I am going to read it, 'Steve', I should wait until the member comes back into the House.

I do not think it is the kind of thing we should read in the absenc~ of the member for Kilbride, the diocesan chancellor, pro tem, I would suggest, if I can judge by the language in that particular document. But surely - I do not know - it is hard to take in. HR. NEARY: How about taking over Brinco 1 what he thinks of that?

Hay 25, 1978 Tape 3504 EC - 2 He tends to have a fairly MR. S HIHONS: limited vocabular~ HR. W. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, a point of personal privilege. MR. SPEAKER: (Dr. Collins) A point ofpersonal privilege, the hon. the Minister of Fisheries. MR. W. CARTER: The member a member a moment ago in describing the antics, as he called it, of Cabinet, he mentioned that we are without a fisheries policy, And I will go as close as I can to quoting him - he said, 'That crowd over there are so busy falling over each other, lining their own pockets and the pockets of their friends! Now, Hr.

Speaker, I happen to be a member of this crowd over here, and I challenge the member, if he can produce evidence that there are members on this side lining their pockets - and I presume by that he means stealing or getting money under false pretenc~or through means other than through an honest means - that he should be required to provide that evidence. If not, Hr. Speaker, I think he should be required to retract that statement. Certainly it reflects on all of the members over here and I do not think he has a right to make that kind of a charge without backing it up with hard evidence to substantiate his charge.

HR. WHITE: What time do you have? MR. SIMMONS: To the point of privilege, Ur. Speaker. HR. SPEAKER: (Dr. Collins) The hon. the member for Burgee - Bay d'Espoir speaking to the point of order. MR. SIMMONS: I think it was a point of privilege, It was a point of privilege as I understood the minister. The Minister of Fisheries rose on a point of privilege, Mr. Speaker, and I wish to make some comments related to his point of privilege. If I can put the mind of the

May 25, 1978 Tape 3504 EC - 3 MR. SIMMONS: Minister of Fisheries at ease, I did not think he would assume for one minute that I had put him in that group - he is not one of the clique over there; he has never been named in any of the charges that have been made in affidavits; he has never been the brunt of any of the questions that we have raised about improprieties in government - the Public Works improprieties, the Scrivener improprieties, the Dobbin improprieties - never named in any of these. So I set the record clear and straight, Mr.

Speaker, that at no time did I even intend or wish to involve the Minister of Fisheries. He is not one of the clique over there who are lining their pockets. Now, Mr. Speaker, he says if we can produce the evidence that people are lining their pockets; well, Mr. Speaker, I do not know how much evidence he needs. I asked him to have a look at the evidence I brought out in Committee last year involving the Walsh shemozzle; the evidence involving the two Dobbin shemozzles, at least two; the evidence involving the Scrivener shemozzle. He aight not recognize it as evidence, Mr.

Speaker, but the fact that people refuse to recognize facts does not mean the facts do not exist. The evidence is clearly there, Mr. Speaker, Indeed, I saw from a - I had better not read it, "Steve', because we will have to table it and that should be kept for another time - but I saw that the member for Kilbride, who sits in the caucus of the Minister of Fisheries,has said in a telephone conversation thac the crowd over there is a bunch of crooks. MR. WELLS: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SIMMONS: No, it is a point of privilege, by the w~ a point of privilege right now.

I am speaking to a point of privilege raised - MR. SPEAKER: A point of privilege is before the Chair.

May 25, 1978 Tape 3504 EC - 4 MR. T,7ELLS: I will then raise a point of Privilege immediately after this one is dealt with. MR. SIMUONS: Yes, that is fine. Mr. Speaker, I am advised - I am not quoting drectly from - but I am advised from a transcript of a telephone conversation, which I understand it to be, that the mecber for Kilbride (Mr. Wells), a colleague of the Minister of Fisheries, has himself described people on that side of the House as a bunch of crooks.

Now, whether a bunch of crooks I am not prepared to say, but I am prepared to say that we have given documented evidence - even the Premier's signature, Mr. Speaker, for what it is worth in this House - documenting that there are people on that side who are lining their own pockets, Mr. Speaker, at the taxpayers' expense. MR. SPEAKER: Dr.Collins) MR. MORGAN: Order, please! Ur. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The han. minister. MR. MORGAN: On the point of privilege, Mr. Speaker. On the point made by my colleague, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! There is a point of privilege before the Chair - UR.

MORGAN: I am speaking to that same point, Mr. Speaker, because, Mr. Speaker, I am also involved in the same point of privilege, because a charge was made quite clearly this afternoon

'!ay 25, 1978 Tape :;o. 3505 t~- l MR. ~!ORGAN: by the speaker, the now memier for Burgee - Bay d'Espoir (!1r. Simmons), Speaking in the debate said, Hr. Speaker, that members of the Cabinet, I quote him and Hansard can prove ~~hat I am saying, are lining their pockets and lining the pockets of their friends. That, Hr. Speaker, reflects on each and every miamber of the Cabinet, including myself. And, Mr.

Speaker, when my colleague rose on a point of personal privilege, in responding to the comments made by my colleague, the same speaker in the debate, Hho brought this point out, said that my han. colleague, the 1-finister of Fisheries, was not one of the group who were lining their pockets in the Cabinet. Now, ~r. Speaker, first of all this was a blanket category, we are all lining our pockets. Now it is a certain group lining their pockets. This is a very, ver1 serious charg~, and Mr. Speaker, the hon. member: will have to prove what he is saying.- MR.. SI!1MONS: We are prov.ing it. MR.

MORGAN: Not only that, Mr. Speaker, but automatically withdraw these charges. He is reflecting in a derrogatory way, inflammatory way, upon each and every member of this Cabinet, and here is one member, ~!r. Speaker, who is not going to tolerate that kind of an attack. The hon. gentleman is going to have to retract, apologize or take the ultimate consequences. ~. F. 'i-1HITE: ~'lL SIMMONS: What is that? What is that? What is that? Are you threatening me? Are you threatening me? Mr. Speaker, is he threatening me? MR. SPEAKER (Dr.Collins): ~lR. SU1M.ONS : MR. SPEAKER: :-m.. F. WHITE: MR. SIMHONS: MR.

SPEAKER: Order, please! 1-fuat consequences? Order, please! That is right. Are you threatening me? Order, please! Order, please! The hen. minister -

~ !ay 25, 1973 ~1 - 2 '1R. MORGA...'-': ~~r. Speaker, could I have protection from this little yak over here? MR. SPEAKER: MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! The hen. minister is - Now who is lowering this House? Order, please! The hon. minister is speaking to a point of privilege and I would ask him if he would ~nnd up his remarks. Xr. Speaker, the ultimate consequences ~dll obviously be this Rouse ~vill have to deal ~?ith such .:.n attack of one member upon another member. w~ are all members of the Assembly, whether it be in Cabinet, backbencher or otherwise. The attack Has made, Mr.

Speaker, by this dirty, filthy little politician, •rho can stand in the House and say I am lining my pockets as a Cabinet minist~r! MR. SI1'!!0NS: '1R. SPEAI<ER: Sit down! Sit down! Order, please! I understand the hon. minister has terminated his remarks on the point of privilege. :·rR. }'[ORGAN : ~o, ~r. Speaker, I have not. MR. S?EAKE:t: MR. ~Y: No, }!r. Speaker, I !.ave not. Order, please! Order! The hen. member has - }IlL SPEAJ.<ER (Dr. Collins) : 1 Order, plaase!

Order, please: I must insist on order. w~en the Chair calls order~the hen. members will assist greatly if th"y will pe=it the Chair to make ~he point for which order is called. In speaking to the point of privilege, I would ask hen. members to speak to the point at issue and not obscure the issue by getting into side issues or making remarks that might obscure the issue. The hon. member for Bonavista South.

'iay 25, 1976 Tape ::o. 3505 ~~f - 3 ~!R. l: !ORG~1: :1r. Speaker , I vithdraw the co=ent 'it is a dirty, filthy politician.' I will say it is dirty, filthy statements to be made in this House, charging members of tbe Cabinet of lining their own pockets ! HR. S:C1MONS: !1R. MORGAN: Not true. Charging the Cabinet ministers first blanketly, in a blanket way, and then when raised - SOME HON.MEMBERS: '!R. SPE.'\KER: HR. SPEAKER: I must insist on silence. c!R. ~ORGAN: to defend his position as Oh, oh! Orcer, please! Could I have protection, l·!r. Sp~ake r? The hon. minister has the floor and The han.

Minister of Tourism. :fr. Speaker, >Iher. r.1y colleague rose a minister of the Cabinet on a point of privilege, the hon. gentleman v7ho made the charge then stood and said he was not one of the group who were lining their pockets. !·!R. snmoNs: That is right. ~11' •• ~!ORGAN: Which clearly points out, Hr. Speaker, that there are ::~embers of this Cabinet 1vho are lining their pockets - MR. SI~~fONS: That is right. MR. MORGA.'l': - from government funds or otherwise. ':!R. SH1!10NS: That is ri11;ht! ~. ~!ORGAN : Hr. Speaker, could I have pr:>tection? Could I be heard in silence?

It is a very important issue. !o'R.. SPEAKER: Order, please! The hen. minister has the right to be heard in silence. I will enforce that rule rigidly throughout the remainder of his remarks. But I would ask the hen. minister if he would, I have listened at some length nm.;r, if he could conclude his remarks fairly shortly. MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, I will make th~m as brief as possible but I want to again emphasize this is a very important issue. '1R.. S~ONS: Right.

'-fay 25, 1978 .~1 - 4 M!l.. :·!ORG./>.:.'1 : Wlu~.n Ministers pf the Crotm are being charged by members p'f thi.s Rouse of stealing and filling their pocl:ets t-Tith money being stolen from gov enment sources or otherwise, that is a very, very serious issue. And , !1r. S?e&ke r, I again say tha ·t the hon . gen tleman who made these charges must wit hdraw and ap olo giz e to all members of the Cabinet, in clud ing myself as one, -:~ r else the Bouse of Asset;tbly should deal 1rith the matter and he will take the ultimate consequences. :.Jh.at I em ;;a?ing, :0!1:: .

Spe~er is his charges are unparli=entary, de rro gatory and inflammatory against another hon . member and therefore mus t be asked to .retract and apologize. Order , ple~se! Order please ! I thick I should comoe~~ upon ~ h e point of privilege at this point in time. The hon. ~inister of Fishert.es arose - AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. SPEAKER: Order, pleasf!!! The hon. M:1niste:t of Fisheries rose on a point of personal privilege.

May 25, 1978 Tape 3506 IB-1 MR. SPEAKER (Dr. J. collins ) : In commenting on that the hon. member for Burgeo-Bay d'Espoir (Mr. Simmons) I think clearly pointed out that he was not in his remarks referring to the hon. Minister of Fisheries. So that to keep the matter clear before the House,I think that I would have to rule in view of that remark unless the hon.

Minister of Fisheries has some other points to make in terms of a persona 1 point of privi 1 ege- I have to emphasize the word personal because,as I say,we have to keep the order of events in a clear fashion - unless the Minister of Fisheries has other remarks to make on his point of personal privilege I have to rule that there is not a personal point of privilege before the Chair in relation to the hon. Minister of Fisheries. Before recognizing the hon. member for Burgeo-Bay d'Espoir (Mr.

Simmons) again,I would point out though that I think the Chair has to take note of the fact that certain words were used which in the ordinary

interpretation would be considered unparliamentary. think the ordinary

interpretation of lining one's pockets is a derrogatory term at least. And as that term certainly is at least out of order,! would think that the hon. member for Burgeo-Bay d' Espoir should withdraw that term from the official records of the House. I might point out in doing that that it is unparliamentary. I need only quote one little part of Beauchesne on this I think. There are many parts one could quote.

But in Beauchesne, 155, subsection (2), it says examples of unparliamentary remarks are such remarks as,"that he acted basely and from base motives." It is immaterial what an hon. member thinks or what he feels or what he writes or what he says to his neighbor. The point about it is that it is unparliamentary to make such statements in the House. It is quite, as I say, immaterial any other aspect of the matter,but it is unparliamentary to make such statements and the job of the Chair is clearly to make sure that the rules do apply.

So I do have to rule that the statement that some hon. members, groups of hon. members, might be lining their pockets is an unparliamentary statement and I have to therefore ask the hon.

May 25, 1978 Tape 3506 IB-2 MR. SPEAKER (Dr. Collins): member for Burgeo-Bay d'Espoir if he will withdraw that remark. The hon. member for Burgeo-Bay d'Espoir. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, I used the remark in the full knowledge that it has been used at least thousands of times in this House. If Mr.

Speaker feels it is not within the parliamentary framework of language I certainly withdraw the statement,if that is the case,and I seek the indulgence of the House that I used it in the full knowledge that it has been used many hundreds of times since my coming into this House and I can produce Hansard records to substantiate that. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! If the hon. member will permit me just to comment on that point, my understanding is that the hon. member has withdrawn the remark.

If there are other examples in Hansard where this remarks was not unparliamentary, I will certainly make the necessary change in my ruling at a later stage and I will endeavour to confirm that or otherwise. But I would accept that the han. member at this point in time has recogrtized the ruling and has acceded to it. The hon. member for Burgeo-Bay d'Espoir. MR. SIMMONS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. NEARY: Excuse me, the hon. member for Kilbride (Mr. Wells) was going to make a point of privilege. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member for Burgeo-Bay d'Espoir has the floor unless the hon. member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) is raising a point of order. MR. NEARY: No the hon. member for Kilbride - MR. WELLS: Mr. Speaker, I indicated that I would as soon as you had dealt witb the other point of privilege raise another point of privilege. I was outside the Chamber and I am not sure exactly what he said. But when I came in I believe I heard the han. member for Burgeo-Bay d'Espoir make comments to the effect that I said something at some time, exactly what it was I am not sure. But the point is, Mr.

Speaker, when an han. member stands in this House and says something of that sort he must of himself know it to be true. So if I have said anything at any

May 25, 1978 Tape 3506 IB-3 MR. WELLS: time about anybody that the hon. member and that member is referring to,then he has to be in a position to say that he is aware of it, that I said certain things either orally or in writing to him, not that he got it third hand, second hand, fourth hand, fifth hand or whatever but that I saidto him certain things. Is the hon. member saying that I said to him certain things? MR . NEARY: No. MR. WELLS: He is not. Well then I would ask, Mr. Speaker, that the hon. member withdraw these allegations. He has no personal knowledge of them.

He cannot give any opinion as to the truth or otherwise of anything that he alleges I said. Only the person to whom I said anything or wrote anything can give that. So the hon. member is speaking~! presume,second or third hand. Is that correct? If so,as a man Of some honour and · a member of this House with the confidence of the people

:iay 25, 1978 Tape No. 3507 .r..r - 1 c!R, WELLS: in the district who elected him here and with the responsibility that all members in the House owe and bear to other members,I would ask that member, Mr. Speaker, to withdraw because he does not know of what he speaks. He has been told,I presume,something by others,but if I did not say anything to him or write anything to him whereof he speaks then as a man of decency and i10nour,which I presume he is,he will withdraw it, Mr. Speaker, because he has no such knowledge. HR. NEARY: h"R. SPEAKER: HR. NEARY: To that point of privilege, Hr. Speaker.

The hon. member for LaPoile. Mr. Speaker, the hon. member for Kilbride, Sir, obviously thinks now that he is down before a judge down in the Supreme Court. The hon. gentleman is in the House of Assembly and the hon. gentleman has issued a challenge to my :1on. colleague, the member for Burg eo-Bay d 1 Espoir, to produce evidence, I presume that is what the hon. gentleman is asking for, to produce evidence, Sir, that the hon. member for Kilbride did in fact make certain charges and allegations in a telephone conversation - MR. WELLS: I am asking (inaudible}. HR. NEARY: I am on a point of privilege, Sir. MR.

SPEAKER: Order, please! I would ask hon. members if they would kindly take their seats for a moment. Order, please! A point of privilege was brought before the Chair. At this point in time and from my recollection of remarks in the debate,I am at a disadvantage in knowing precisely the matter that is the personal point of privilege. There were remarks made that skirted around a certain subject but that subject,to my knowledge, and I am open to correction if hon. members wish us to review the tapes, but to my knowledge there was no clear delineation of a situation or no clear statement of certain remarks.

I wonder if the hon. member for Kilbride would perhaps outline a bit more precisely the matter - NR. NEARY: I am not finished speaking to the point of privilege. NR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The Chair hears in terms of points of order and points of privilege as much as it considers useful. There is

~lay 25 , 197S Tape ){o. 3507 i·!R. SPEAKER: no obligation to hear any member on either point,but the Chair has to be in a position to understand the points that are brought up and this is what I am endeavouring to do. JX - 2 HR. R