VOL . 2 PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD: 3:00 P.M. - 6:00 P. M . THURSDAY, MAY 26, 1983. NO. 48

May 26, 1983 Tape No. 2559 JV- 1 The House met at 3:00 P.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Order, please! Before we begin today •·s proceedings I would like to welcome to the galleries, I do not know the numbers, but some parents and students from the Integrated Elementary School in Little Bay, Green Bay, accompanies by their principal, Mr. Samuels and teachers Mr.Stark and Mr.Pitts. SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. WINDSOR: MR. SPEAKER: Development. MR. WINDSOR: Hear, hear! MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS Mr. Speaker. The hon. the Minister of Mr. Speaker, I am pleased today to table the

summary report of the Newfoundland Greenfield Aluminum Aluminum Smelter Joint Feasibility Study~ This document is meant for public release and provides a comprehensive overview of the major study findings. During the last 1970's, the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador carried out an extensive review of a number of energy intensive industries which could take a large block of power and thereby provide incentive for development of the electrical energy potential of the Churchill river.

The aluminum industry was identified as the most energy intensive and also among the most desirable in terms of employment opportunities and environmental impact. In early 1980 the Department of Development and Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro approached eighteen aluminum companies with a presentation on the energy potential of the Lower Churchill and the attractiveness of locating new smelter 5439

Hay 26, 1983 Tape No. 2559 JV -2 MR. WINDSOR: capacity in Newfoundland. As a result of this presentation and follow up discussions between senior officials, including the Premier, Anaconda Aluminum Company, as it was then known, was convinced to enter into a joint study with the Province to assess the potential of Newfoundland as a greenfield smelter site. An agreement was signed on December 1, 1981 to conduct such a study.

The economic impact and the financial analysis components of the study were addressed in-house, with consultants retained to cover engineering, capital cost, environmental, transportation, labour and public opinion issues. A budget of $500,000 was established for those consultant services with wa;s cost shared between Anaconda and the Newfoundland Government. 5440

May 26, 1983 Tape No. 2560 SD - 1 MR. WINDSOR: The Department of R~gional Economic Expansion subsequently agreed to share the cost of the Newfoundland portion of this study. The study focused on the feasibility of a world class smelter facility in this Province. The proposed facility was modelled after the Anaconda smelter in Seebree, Kentucky, which has an annual production capacity of 180,000 short tons of primary ingot. Such a capacity would operate continuously with 950 permanent employees on site and another 325 person years of employment created in the service sectors.

This would translate into a total increase of $45 million annually to the Gross Domestic Product of the Province. As Labrador and the Island of Newfoundland are distinct geographic areas, representative locations were selected at York Harbour near Corner Brook and at North West Point in the Happy Valley - Goose Bay area. This permitted specific site consideration which is necessary for assessing environmental concerns determining transportation costs· and developing capital and operating cost estimates.

The finding of the viability analysis, however, once they are quantified, are largely applicable to any number of Island or Labrador locations. Although the study did not attempt to compare both . sites, it was recognized that energy costs would be higher on the Island, due to longer transmission lines and the necessity to cross th.e Strait of Belle Isle,

whereas other factors· such as capital costs'·, transportation, workforce availability·, infra- structure and operating conditions marginally favor an Island location. Energy does ·, however, constitute about one third of th.e cost of producing aluminum ingot and a 5441

May 26, 1983 Tape No . 2560 so - 2 MR . WINDSOR: Labrador location therefore has ao advantage being much closer to the Churchill potential which allows for more favourable long term power rates. Mr . Speaker, I am pleased to report to this Bouse today,that the study has confirmed Newfoundland as a world class site for an aluminum smelter with the potential to be one of the top greenfield sites in the world . SOME HON • MEMBERS : Hear, hear. 5442

May 26, 1983 Tape No. 2561 NM - 1 MR. WINDSOR: The financial analysis indicates, however, that a $1 billion investment of this nature would not be justified anywhere in the world under current economic conditions. I must emphasize that this is due to the current depressed state of the aluminum industry and the economy and not to any factors peculiar to Newfoundland. The downturn in the aluminum industry unfortunately occurred somewhat during the course of the feasibility study with the financial analysis being based on factors which prevailed several months ago when the industry was at its lowest point.

With an end to the recession in sight, there are now very positive signs of a sustained recovery in the aluminum industry. With the recent upturn in economic activity, inventories are being reduced, prices are rising, and previously shutdown smelter capacity is being restarted. There will be capacity, however, which. will not be reactivated because of high energy costs and/or obsolete equipment. This points to the need for new greenfield capacity which I am optimistic will come.

This feasibility study has been completed at a time to allow us to ideally position ourselves as prime contenders for the next round of expansion. On the local level a favourable ruling on Upper Churchill recall power would put us in a highly advantageous position to attract such capacity. Newfoundland has the energy potential and has now been .confirmed as one of the most competitive greenfield sites for an aluminum smelter in the world. When we undertook this study, Anaconda Aluminum was planning for additional primary capaci,ty to 'support its secondary processing activities.

Since that tim~ the company has undergone a major reorganization and name . change. They are now ARCO Aluminum, a division of ARCO Metals whose parent company Atlantic Richfield is based 5443

May 26, 1983 Tape No. 2561 NN - 2 MR. WINDSOR: in Los Angeles. Because of economic and other strategic considerations, ARCO Aluminum's plans have also cha~ged dramatically and new greenfield capacity does not now fit into the priority category in their capital expenditure programme. r am encouraged, however, that this study, coupled with the projected turn around in the fortunes of the industry will give new momentum to the idea of an aluminum smelter in the company':s overall plans.

In conclusion I would like to express our thanks to the various officia;Ls of ARCO and the federal government for their co-operation throughout this study. I would also reiterate that we consider the feasibility study results positive in the longer term, having confirmed the Province as a major world class candidate for any increase in alumi~um production capacity. During the next few months we will use the study results as a basis for high level discussions with senior offici-als of ARCO and other companies which may be consider.ingr,new production capacity. 5444

May 26, 1983 Tape 2562 PK - 1 MR. WINDSOR: We will also be working closely with federal officials to determine the availability of various forms of incentives,and investigating the effects on the investment decision of such incentives. We also feel that other areas of the Province may well offer locational advantages which may further increase our attractiveness to the aluminum industry. Such areas will be assessed in the corning months as we also increase our general promotional efforts towards the attraction of energy intensive industry to this Province. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : MR.

NEARY: Hear, hear! The han. Leader of the Opposition. Mr. Speaker, my initial reaction to that Hinisterial Statement is that another pipe dream' is gone. The han. gentleman in that statement is merely trying to justify the expenditure of several hundreds of thousands of dollars of taxpayer money in a study. Mr. Speaker, they have a new policy now this administration, they study every­ thing under the sun. They study the offshore, they study the impact on this, they study the impact on that, they study this, that, and the other thing then they come into the House and make ministerial statements , Mr.

Speaker, about studies that they have undertaken. The next th~g they will be studying the tsetse fly, they will be studying the cod fish to see if they can get some kind of - MR. MARSHALL: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The han. President of the Council on a point of order. MR. MARSI:fl!...LL: If the han. gentleman as is usual, has nothing sensible to say, I suggest he take his seat, Mr". Speaker. This is a Ministerial Statement that the minister has made and it is a very important matter • The han. 5445

May 26, 19 83 Tape 2562 PK - 2 MR. MARSHALL: qentleman is debating the statement at the very best. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Order, please! The hon. Leader of the Opposition comments in response to the Ministerial Statement should be con£ined to the Statement itself. SOME HON • MEMBERS : Hear , hear! MR. NEARY: so, Mr. Speaker, I tell you this that there will be some thumping on the desks there opposite if they ev~r come in with a project, if they ever get a project started, launched, get a project off the ground.

According to the desk thumping over the Ministerial Statement merely on a study that is being paid for by the taxpayers of this Province, Mr. Speaker, we c-an expect some fanfare if they ever launch a project. MR. TULK: They will be dancing on their chairs. MR. · NEARY: Tlley will be dancing on their s-eats: -· -~ The only thing left to study over there now aretheir navels. They have studied everything else Mr. Speaker. They are going to have everything studied to death, Mr. Speaker. All the MHAs from the West Coast went down to the United States in connection with this aluminum smelter. 5446

May 26, 1983 MR. NEARY: to go, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : MR. BAIRD: MR. SPEAKER: member for Humber West. MR. BAIRD: Tape 2563 EC - 1 The Labrador MHAs were not invited Oh, oh! Order, please! On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Order, please! On a point of order, the hon. the It was just stated that all the MHAs for the West Coast \vent down to the States. I do not think that is a correct statement, Mr. Sr;eaker, I am one of them. I was not there and I know of others who were not there. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

That is not really a valid point of order, it is a difference of opinion between two hon. members. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, they were all invited to go and none of the MHAs from Labrador were invited to go. Now we are told by the han. gentleman that ARCO, the new company, in all likelihood have changed their priorities. The thing is so 'iffy',Mr. Speaker. The hon. gentleman tells us now that a lot depends on the recall of power, the water reversion rights that is before the Supreme . Court of Canada now.

Now, if that ruling is handed down in their favour then there will be something else, there will be another obstruction thrown in the way. Mr. Speaker, let us accept these things for what they are: They are merely window dressing, they are studies. They are studying ~verything now hoping that they can fool the people, pull the wool - they are grasping for straws - that they can pull the ' wool over the eyes of the Newfoundland people by saying, 'Look, we are trying. We have studied this and we have 5447

May 26, 1983 Tape 2563 EC - 2 MR. NEARY : studied that.' But, Mr. Speaker, when will the ~ister of Development (Mr. Windsor) or the Premier or somebody there oppos ·i te tell us about a real project theyare getting off the g:tound, something that is started, something that you can see, something that will employ people and not something that will just merely waste taxpayer money, Mr. Speaker. And remember this, Mr. Speaker: Back a few years ago, especially the President of the council, the Government House Leader (Mr.

Ma .rshall) tOld us and the Premier told us that this administration would not make premature statements, that they were not going to be like the Liberal administration, like the Smallwood administration that used to make all kinds of statements, fanfare and theatrics leading up to the actual starting of a project. This administration were not going to conduct themselves in that manner. And what have we seen? Since 1981 they have been talking about this aluminum smelter. Since 1981, almost three years, Mr. Speaker, they have been talking about it, the same crowd that told us 5448

May 26, 1983 Tape No. 2564 MJ - 1 MR. NEARY: that they would not make premature announcements, that they would not be talking about projects unless they were ready to announce them,getting them off the ground. Now, Mr. Speaker, let us accept the~~ -Ministerial Statements for what they are. They are just merely an updating on studies that were undertaken by the administration. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Order, please! The han. the Leader of the Opposition's time has expired. MR. SIMMS: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Culture, Recreation and Youth. MR. SIMMS: Mr.

Speaker, I want to provide hon. members with some additional information concerning wild life management in the Labrador portion of our Province. The han. the member for Torngat Mountains (Mr. Warren) made a request and although I have already made an announcement with respect to the black bear season and the caribou season in Labrador 1 I think the information is of importance to the people and I will therefore make reference again to those two seasons and in addition I will provide additional information as it relates to the status of the annual moose licence draw in Labrador.

With respect to the black bear season for Labrador, Mr. Speaker, the hunting season opened on April 4, 1983 and is scheduled to close June 25, 1983. The season wiil re-open on August 29 and will close on November 22. I would also like to point out there are four black bear ma~agement zones in Labrador 1 and the seasons are the same for all four zones. The bag limit for black bear is two per ~icence. However, black bear cubs and female black bears accompanied by cubs may not be taken. 5449

May 26, 1983 Tape No. 2564 MJ - 2 MR. SI~1S: With respect to the annual caribou hunt, Mr. Speaker, in Labrador, the caribou management zones are they same as they have been in past years. However, only the Northern zone will be opened to hunters. this year. The season in the Northern zone will be from August 15, 1983,to October 8, 1983. The Northern zone will then be closed from October 9 to November 13, 1983, and will re-open from Novemmer 14, 1983, to April 30, 1984. However, within the Northern zone, there are two restricted areas, Harp Lake and White Bear Lake.

For those restricted areas, the season will be from August 15, 1983, to October 8, 1983 and from November 14, 1983 to March 10, 1984. There is, Mr. Speaker, one exception with respect to these dates. It relates to people who reside permanently in the Northern zone. These hunters are provided a licence at no cost, and they may also hunt during the period from October 9, 1983, to November 13, 1983, when the area is normally closed to other hunters. However, during this period, residents of the Northern zone may hunt male caribou only. Any resident, Mr.

Speaker, permanently residing the Northern zone for a consecutive period of not less than six months before applying for a caribou licence will receive a licence at no cost. Other applicants, or those who do not permanently reside in the Northern zone, will receive a licence at a cost of twenty five dollars • . And again, the bag limit is two caribou per licence. Mr. Speaker, applications have been solicited for a moose draw in Labrador, and the 5450

May 26, 1983 Tape No. 2564 MJ - 3 MR . SIMMS: deadline for acceptance of these applications is tomorrow, May 27, 1983, as has been publically announced . And although the date has not been formally set for the draw, I am advised that the draw will take place in public in Happy Valley - Goose Bay sometime during the early part of June , 1983 . I am also advised that last year ' s draw took place in early September so this year the draw will take place three months earlier than in past years . 5451

Ma y 2 6, 19 83 Tape No. 2565 SD - 1 MR. SIMMS: For all moose management areas, Mr. Speaker, with the exceptions of Little Mecatina and Natashquan, the season will extend from September 19th to November 26th. In those two areas the season has been set from January 30th to March 25th. And the moose quotas for the various regions are attached to the statement. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. HISCOCK: MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : MR. HISCOCK: Hear, hear. Mr. Speaker. The han. member for Eagle River. With regard to the announcement just made by the Minister of Culture, Recreation and Youth (Mr.

Simms) we are pleased too that one of the positive things that carne out of this is wildlife management for Labrador and now we have a quota of eighty-eight moose for this year. But I also have to point out that the wildlife officer in Port Hope Simpson last year worked for three months and in court now there is at least one case of poaching. If we are going to have wildlife management, we have to have wildlife officers. We just cannot come in here and make Ministerial Statements and expect management to take place by itself.

With regard to the other part, the criteria of saying anybody up North - which means Rigolet North ~ would get a licence free if they lived in the area for at least six months. I do not think that should be. r· think the residential criteria should be at least one year or two years. I also think that people in L'Anse-au-Clair, Cartwright, Mary's Harbour and Port Hope Simpson should not be dis­ criminated against.

They have to now - because migratory patterns have taken the herd up North - they have to get together, five or six hunters, charter a plane into Goose Bay, from there on up North, incurring an expense of 5452

May 26, 1983 Tape No. 2565 SD - 2 MR. HISCOCK: $2,000 or $3,000. I cannot see why these hunters along the South and East Coasts of Labrador should be discriminated against, when we can have somebody corning in to do study, live in Labrador for six months and end up getting their licences free if they happen to live up North, I think that this is discriminating against people who live in the South. I hope that the minister will change this so we can have this apply to all the people along Coastal Labrador because, Mr.

Speaker, this is rather important, these hunters do go and hunt on back of Nain and they have to go to great expense. Many times, Mr. Speaker, these hunters take it upon themselves to charter a plane into Goose Bay and then charter another plane up North, not really sure if they are going to get any wildlife •. And I can not see why they should have to pay this extra $25, I cannot see why. So I would hope that the minister takes it under advisement and has it applied to all people along the Labrador Coast. With regard to the other part, Mr. Speaker - 5453

May 26, 1983 Tape No. 2566 NM - 1 MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Order, please! The time for the hon. member has expired. MR. HISCOCK: MR. SPEAKER: Opposition. MR. NEARY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. ORAL QUESTIONS: The hon. Leader of the Mr. Speaker, I do not know if we have driven the Premier out of the House or not, but it has been some considerable number of days since the hon. gentleman has been here. Like I say,there is no fun during Question Period without the hon. gentleman. We are forced to change our strategy.

Every day we have our caucus meetings, we have questions only the Premier can answer as the head of the administration, so could the hon. gentleman tell us when the Premier is going to come back in the House? Have we driven him out? Has he now taken it for gra~t~d __ t~~ House is going Lto close tarorrcw, as they thought it would last ~ and that he is not coming back anymore? What is the problem? I mean 1 we have a lot of questions that only the Premier can deal with. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Mr.

Speaker, I know from experience that the hen. gentleman has a lot of questions, but that does not bespeak the quality of the questions. Mr. Speaker, the hon. the Premier was up in Ottawa on Monday and Tuesday. There is business of the Province that has to be conducted outside of this House and the ~remier does a very good job of it. SOME BON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. MARSHALL: He was in Ottawa on public business the last two or three days. Today he is down at a very necessary function, opening the Upper, Salmon project I I think the Premier is very attentive to the affairs of 5454

May 26, 1983 Tape No. 2566 MR. MARSHALL: this House, but I am sure hen. members in this House will appreciate the fact that there is public business to be conducted outside of this House. And as for the hon. gentleman's gratuitous statement about the Cabinet, the Cabinet is here pretty well a full compliment every day. MR. HODDER: Oh, pretty well. This is the first day. MR. MARSHALL: Some of them are out on business from time to time, but the hen. gentleman has no trouble asking questions and getting answers to questions. NM- 2 The only problem that we have is getting questions of any quality. MR.

NEARY: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The hen. Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: The hon. gentleman is aware that the Premier gave us all a lecture here a couple of weeks ago about our duties and responsibilities and told the whole of Newfoundland that our number one priority, what we were elected for,was to serve in this House, ·and now the han. gentleman has been absent for several days. I must say it is no fun here without him, Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: Order, please: Order, please: The Question Period is thirty minutes and not a period to enter into debate as to why or why not certain ministers or the Premier are not here. So I invite the hon. Leader of the Opposition to pose a question. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, in the absence of the Premier 1 I am forced to put some questions to the President of the Council, the Government House Leader UMr. Manshall} • AN HON. MEMBER: He is pretty snarky today. 5455

May 26, 1983 Tape 2567 EC - 1 MR. NEARY: Yes, the hon. gentleman did get nasty there a few moments ago but I am not going to be intimidated or provoked by the hon. gentleman. I am going to ask the hon. gentleman if he can tell the House, now that the member for Stephenville (Mr. Stagg) has resigned as Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Development (Mr. Windsor), would the hon. gentleman tell the House if the administration will take advantage of this resignation to keep a hospital bed open or to devote the income of the hon. gentleman towards people on social services?

Will the hon. gentleman tell the House if the government has taken a decision not to fill these parliamentary secretary positions when they become vacant and whether he anticipates that the Premier may just wipe out these unnecessary jobs? MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon. the President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Once again we come to the quality of the question. It reminds me that,not too long ago, the hon. gentleman was up and consumed the whole Question Period talking about the drilling activity offshore and was not only shot down in this House, he was also shot down by the oil companies afterwards.

So, you know, that isone example, now we get another example of the type of question that the hon. gentleman asks. I will not respond to the question with respect to the hospital bed. All I can say is that the hon. the member for ' stephenville acquitted his office in the same manner as he acquits it at all times, in a magnificent way, and he was of great assistance to the aaministration, as he will be in his present position. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear: MR.

MAR SHAL .L: These parliamentary secretaries have been very, very beneficial to the government because the members who are carrying out the duties have been of 5456

May 26, 1983 Tape 2567 EC - 2 MR . MARSHALL: great help to the government as it pursues its policies and tries to do its best for the people of the Province of Ne\-lfoundland. So, you kn0\-1, that is my response to the bon . gentleman's question . I regret it cannot be given in any more detail but the question itself was not of very great substance. MR. NEARY : A supplementary, Mr . Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Russell): A supplementary, the han . the Leader oz the Opposition . MR.

NEARY : Would the han . gentleman tell the House if it is the intention of the Premier to leave these positions vacant as they become vacant? No doubt there will be other resignations,according to what we can hear,from within the ranks of the benches there opposite . Will these positions be left vacant or will some backbencher be rewarded, Mr . Speaker, for his loyalty? 5457

May 26, 1983 Tape 2568 PK - 1 MR. NEARY: Will somebody else be rewarded for hi s loyalty or will they be left vacant in these times of restraint? HR . SPEAKER (Russell) The hon. President of the Council. MR. HARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, that is another question you have to ask the reason for. Surely there are more important questions the hon. gentleman can ask. All I will say is that the hon.

Premier,I am sure 1 will continue in the policy that he has adopted since he has formed the administration o:f involving each and every member of his caucus,be they in Cabinet or out of Cabinet,to the fullest extent in governmental decisions and in governmental policies. There are many private members on the government side of this House who could admirably fill any oneof these positions of parliamentary secretary for that matter,any one of the positions in the Cabinet, they would fill everything adrnirablyand they will , have a great deal of opportunity to do it in the years ___ .... -·· to come.

The only positions r~t available to the hen. member~ because they cannot look forward to them, are in the Opposition. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The han. Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I have to remind han. members that the administration announced a freeze on hiring some time ago, and I hope that they intend to follow that practice in this instance. Although the member for Bay of Islands (Mr. Woodrow) down there has been looking at the Premier with calf's eyes 1 no doubt expecting to get the nod or get into the Cabinet. Well, Mr.

Speaker, the hon. gentleman baited me there on the offshore. Well,I want to get back to that for a moment, Mr. Speaker. I want to remind the hon. gentleman that not long ago the han. gentleman himself stated that· the offshore dispute would eventually have to be negotiated on a political basis, that eventually this government 5458

May 26, 1983 Tape 2568 PK - 2 MR. NEARY: would have to sit down in talks with Ottawa and resolve this matter. Now the question I have for the minister: In light of the comments from the member for Mount Scio (Mr. Barry) that a Tory government may or may not be elected federally, that it would be insanity to hold out and wait for'that highly unlikely possibility, will the minister tell the House now,in light of the statements made by his colleague, the member for Mount Scio, is the administration going to stop their childish and costly game of sulking and start negotiating this very important matter with Ottawa?

MR. SPEAKER (Russell): The han. President of the council. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, the han. gentlemen there opposite are so devoid of any kind of intellectual leadership that they have to rely on questions asked by a~ on -·· .. .. ~-- - this side of the House in order to attempt to pose questions of any kind of substance at all. 5459

May 26, 1983 Tape No. 2569 MJ '"" 1 MR. MARSHALL: l!'he han. gentlelt\an, Mr. Speaker, with respect to the question, I think the han. the member for Mount Scio (Mr. Barry) is quite capable of voicing any questions that he has himself;he does not need the Leader of th~ Opposition (Mr. Neary)to be his handmaiden . in that.

But with respect to the particular question that he asks, the position of the government is quite clear and the han. gentleman there knows it, that this government negotiated a deal on the offshore i~ December and January of this year. lt wa,s a deal that was good for the Province of New -foundland, It was good for all Canadians. It was a deal, Mr. ~peaker, that would see us have an equal say in the management of the offshore to protect the jobs and protect the developlt\ent in this Province. It was a deal, Mr.

Speaker, which would see our young people be able to look forward to the resource being dedicated in large measure to their achieving a per capita income equal to the average of their counterparts, the young people in other parts of Canada, It was a deal, as I sa':f, that was good for all of New ·foundland and all of Canada. What we did, Mr.

Speaker, wa,s enter- into that agreement in principle w·ith the federal Minister of Energy at that time,and because there was a change in the position between what the federal minister was saying and the federal offic~als, we simply asked the federal government to put in writing what it had undertaken it would do orall.y w-ith us 1 and we wa,it today, }'l..r. Speaker, to get that respon::;e as to the specific understanding of that agreement in writing, As soon as we get that, , Mr. Speaker, we are ready, willing and able a,nd quite anxious to resume negotiations 1but until that comes, Mr.

Speaker, what would happen would pe that we would be forced, ·which tf:.e federal government was attempting ' to do and is attempting to do through their handmaidens on the other side in part, to get us. We entered into this 5460

May 26, 1983 Tape No. 2569 ,MJ ,..., z MR. MARSHALL: agreement in good f~ith. we qave to the federal government our bottom line 1as ~t were 1at that particular time 1 believing that,for the first time,the federal government was open and was going to address the offshove issue in a fair·and sensible and reasonable basis.And we are no~ bv way, Mr. Speaker, of negotiating below our bottom line 1 which we would do if we did not take the sensible, reasonable, prudent precaution that any reasonable person w:>uld take to simply ask the federal government to put in writing what they promised us orally. ~d, Mr.

Speaker, obviously any bases of negotiatior~in good faith have to .- be prefaced on the fact that the other side is prepared to put in writing what it promised orally, lf somebody is afraid to put in writing what it had promised 1 you have to call. in question their bona fides. So, the answer is when the-federal government wishes to show itsbona fides, we are prepared to negotiate and we will be·ready and quite happy to negotiate with them 1 but not until then, MR. NEARY: A supplementary, Mr, Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon. the Leader of the Opposition, MR.

NEARY: Mr. speaker I in light of th.e member for Mount sc~o~s (Mr. aarry) comments· that staking the entire future of this Province on the federal election by this administration is stupid and asinine, ~ill the minister agx:ee to forget that rpouthful of child~sh ;rhetoric that h~ ju~t uttered, considering what lack of an agreemen.~ is costing the people of this Province, put aside his sandbox mentality and,regardless of anything else - SOME' HON. MEMBERS: Question! Question! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! 5461

May 26, 1983 Tape No. 2570 SD - 1 MR. NEARY: take into consideration, Mr. Speaker, the pressure that is being placed on the administration by the member for Mount Scio (Mr. Barry), by the Board of Trade and by the people of this Province, and get back to the bargaining table? Let the han. gentlemen take the initiative on behalf of the administration and start new talks all over again~ Will the han. gentleman please undertake to do that? MR. SPEAKER (Russell): The han. President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Mr.

Speaker, once again I say I do not think t~e member for Mount Scio would appreciate, neither does he need the han. Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) to be his handmaiden in asking any questions. The situation with respect to it, Mr. Speaker, · .is this government is not waiting and relying on the federal election. What this government is doing is waiting and expecting fairness and reasonableness on the other side , that is that they put into writing what they agreed to orally. We are not relying, Mr. Speaker, on a change of government.

What we are doing, we are relying,with a great deal of confidence 1on the will of the people of this Province. Because ultimately 1 in the final analysis, this matter will be resolved by the will of the people of this Province,and it will be a resolute will, Mr. Speaker, to get the same rights in this Province as the people in Alberta and Western Canada toqay enjoy,and that is, Mr. Speaker, prior to 1930, I repeat again for the edification of the han. member 1 the Western provinces did not own their resources.

And the reason why they own their resources today was because of persistent pressure in the 1920s so that in 1930 it was realized. And I feel that the people of Newfoundland will certainly do no less than the people of Alberta 5462

May 26, 1983 Tape No. 2570 SD - 2 MR. MARSHALL: in demanding of any government in power that it not desist until it gets a reasonable share and return from its own resources. SOME HON .. MEMBERS : Hear, hear. MR. MARSHALL: So, Mr. Speaker, we are not relying on a change of government. What we are relying on, first of all, is that there be a spirit of fairness and reasonableness on the part of the federal government and they will simply respond as to their understanding of that agreement which we reached. And failing that, Mr.

Speaker, what ultimately we are relying on is the indomitable will of the people of Newfoundland, whom we are quite sure are not going to see the resource that they brought into Confederation not dedicated in the first instance to seeing that the young people of this Province have an opportunity to acquire · an earned income equal to the younger people in the other parts of Canada. Mr. Speaker, we will do . -· it despite the Uncle Toms on the other side of the House and their handmaidens and their messengers from the present administration in Ottawa that will not bend to a reasonable request. SOME HON.

MEMBERS: Hear, hear. MR .• MARSHALL: When the federal government wants to be reasonable, Mr. Speaker, and put it in writing 1 we are prepared to negotiate. But,no, we are not relying on any, as I say, Mr. Speaker, election, we are not even relying on court cases. This is going to be determined by the will of the people concerned and the spirit pf fairness of all Canadians,including the people of Newfoundland. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER (~usselll: of the Opposition. 5463 Supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Supplementary, th .e han. Leader

May 26, 1983 Tape No. 2570 SD - 3 MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman has to convince his own colleagues; the member for Mount Scio (Mr. Barry) is one that the hon. gentleman has to conviJ;J.ce'. I do not believe that argument is going to 5464

May 26, 1983 Tape No. 2571 NM- 1 MR. NEARY: change the mind of the supporters of the administration who sit on that side of the House, The handmaidens and the Uncle Toms the han. gentleman is talking about are like the members for Mount Scio (Mr. Barry) and the other dissident and disgruntled members of the Tory caucus. Now, Mr. Speaker, the han. gentleman also mentioned earlier about how the statements that I made were denied in certain quarters.

Now could the han. gen tleman tell us now-he has had ten days or so to ponder this matter over in his mind -could the han. gentleman tell us now how many rigs will be drilling on the Grand Banks as of July 1 of this year? Could the han. gentleman give us the names of these rigs, tell us where they are coming from, and give us a few details about the number of oil rigs that will be drilling on the Grand Banks as of 0-uly 1 of this year? MR. SPEAKER (Russ ·ell) : The han. President of the Council. MR.

MMZSHALL: I thought the han. gentleman had gotten enough of a lacing as it was the last day he asked that particular question. Because he asked that question, you see,and the purpose of this question is first of all to attempt to sow the seeds of insecurity as to offshore operations here, and to give the other impression 1 that it is going on full belt ' in Nova Scotia so therefore we should make an agreement. · Now we want to make an agreement, as w.e said, but not at any price. The rigs that are out there and will be out there; the Zapata Ugland, the SEDCO 706, and the West· Venture.

And,as was indicated and confirmed, Mr. Speaker, by Mobil, . subsequently in a press report following the hon. gentleman's statement, they ·are hoping in the 5465

May 26, 1983 Tape No. 2571 NM - 2 MR. MARSHALL: not too distant future to get another rig over here , the John Sha~v, And where is that coming from , Mr . Speaker? Lo and behold,it is coming from the shores of Nova Scotia to Newfoundland. So that dust goes to prove that they are going to drill where there is a prospect of discovery.

Now while the hon. gentleman is also talking and exulting in these factors and trying to sow the seeds of uncertainty with respect to our offshore, he might be interested in another little bit of information that has recently come to band, that Shell in Nova Scotia bas recently relinquished a significant amount of its acreage. ~ rt is a wonder that has not been picked up here . The acreage on the Continental Shelf was considered to be Nova Scotia 's best chance for an · oil discovery and Shell 's action in giving up 25 to 30 pe r cent would suggest a downgrading of this prospect. The hon. gentleman .. 5466

May 26, 1983 Tape 2572 PK - 1 MR. MARSHALL: might like to digest that when he makes these statements and questions that are indirectly meant to be handmaidens for the purpose of serving other people to try to force us into an agreement like Nova Scotia's, as it he calls it. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. MARSHALL: There is other information, Mr. Speaker, that is of interest to the hon. mernber 1that this demonstrates the federal exploration agreements are contingent commitments only,that is, the company can either drill or drop acreage.

This aspect is not stated in the federal· public statements of the drilling progress which have tended to give maximum values on the assumption that all committed wells will be drilled.

You see, the hon. gentleman does not know what he is dealing with, he does not know really what he is toying with. l':'hile he is trying to give the impression indirectly that because of the lack of an agreement there is no exploration off the coast of this Province, in actual fact one rig is now,even without an agreement,going to be transferred from Nova Scotia to Newfoundland,and Shell has dropped its most prospective acreage and,very importantly as well 1the statements made by the federal government when they announced their drilling prograrnrne,which were announced as if they were certain and were absolutely tied in, are not so, they were contingent possibilities and already we see a substantial amount of that falling off.

SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon. member for Eagle River. MR. NEARY: I have him on the record now. That is all I wanted 1 to get him on the record. MR. HISCOCK:' Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of ' Rural, Agriculture and N·orthern Development (Mr. Goudie), It is concerning a question that I asked last 5467

May 26, 1983 Tape 2572 PK -2 MR. H.ISCOCK: Fall in this House with regard to the shortage of gasoline in the community of St. Lewis. We were told that the residents in St. Lewis wou.ld have to go to Mary's Harbour to get gasoline. Thi::; government did nothing abqut.it and said there was sufficient gasoline there. Well, Mr. Speaker, nothing was done. Now St. Lewis is out of gas, Mary's Harbour is ou:t of gas, and so is Lodge Bay. The salmon season is coming and a lot of these fishermen have no gasoline.

I have contacted the two companies Labseaco and Woodward Limited and they will not be in the area for at least a couple of weeks. The fishermen feel that they will miss maybe two weeks of salmon fishing if they do not get gasoline. So I would like to ask the Minister of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development (Mr. Goudie.) what plans has his department made since last Fall to make sure that there is sufficient fuel in Lodge Ba,y and Mary's Harbour and St. Lewis, and what plans he is taking to make sure that this does not happen again? 5468

May 26, 1983 Tape 2573 EC - l MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon. the Minister of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development. MR. GOUDIE: Mr. Speaker, in terms of ministerial responsibility for coastal communities in Labrador, I must remind the hon. gentleman that my responsibility lies in the area from Rigolet North to Nain and that the South part of the Labrador Coast is the same as any other part of the Province. Perhaps the question might be more appropriately directed to my colleague, the Minister of Justice (Mr. Ottenheimer), responsible for EMO or whatever.

I do not have any responsibility for getting gasoline into corrmmities on the coast. MR. !1A.."R.SRP..LL: Does the hon. the member for Eagle River (r.rr. Hiscock) re);'resent the South of Labrador or the North of Labrador? MR. GOUDIE: The hon. gentleman who just asked the question, Mr. Speaker, does represent the Southern coast of Labrador. MR. HISCOCK: MR. SPEAKER: MR. HISCOCK: Mr. Speaker. The hon. the member for Eagle River. Mr. Speaker, my question is for the President of the Council (Mr. Marshall).

As far as I am concerned, it is an extremely serious matter for any minister to slough this off and say, 'Okay, it is not my responsibility.' The fishermen in Southern Labrador,in the area of Lodge Bay, Mary's Harbour and St. Lewis,will be losing potentially thousands of dollars unless this is rectified. I brought this matter up, I have had correspondence from his parliamentary assistant,and I have letters to show that the parliamentary assistant said in February they were going to look into this matter. So if it is not his responsibility,then I would 5469

May 26, 1983 Tape 2573 EC - 2 MR. HISCOCK: like to know why his department and its deputy minister have been looking into this matter. So I will direct the question to the President of the Council (Mr. Marshall) and ask what action is this government taking to make sure that there is sufficient fuel along the Labrador Coast? It is a serious matter. A lot of ~ese fishermen run out of unemployment insurance in May and cannot afford gasoline and depend on the merchants caning in.

So I would just like to know from the President of the Council, as Acting ,Premier, is this government going to be making any plans to make sure that this does not happen continually? It has happened three or four years in a row now. MR. SPEAKER (Russell): The han. the President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: I w~nt to assure the hon. gentleman that this government takes cognizance of what he says and we are very concerned. But we have long since learned -and, ,you know, I have to temper it by this -we have long since learned not to take verbatim and literally every statement made by the Opposition.

But if the hon. gentleman brings up a point that is of real concern in his district, we will certainly test the urgency of the matter and we will see, obviously, what can be done. I can tell the hon. gentleman that this government is very, very sensitive and aware of the needs of the coastal parts of Labrador and is doiny everything it possibly can to assist in the serv~cing of the people out there.

We realize the difficulties that are attendant upon it because of trans­ portation problems and what have you from time to time, but, certainly, this government cannot be accused of not being sensitive to the needs of the people of coastal Labrador in relation to the capacity 5470

May 26, 1983 Tape No. 2574 NM - 1 MR. MARSHALL: to perform and we will continue to do so. So I have to tell the hon. gentleman that we will look into the .statements the hon. gentleman has made,but I just caution the House, and I have to observe again that time and again we do hear statements from the Opposition that are obviously very grossly exaggerated as to the urgency and the imperativeness of the matters that they bring up. However, having said that, we will certainly look into wh~t the hon. gentleman said. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon. member for Eagle River. MR. HISCOCK: Mr.

Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) , The Premier has referred to Mary's Harbour, Lodge Bay and said that he ended up taking a boat down there and he knows the area quite well and he referred to it as the twilight zone. In fact he has referred to it as the most forgotten area of this Province. I am surprised that the Minister of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development (Mr. Goudie) can stand up and say that he is not responsible for keeping an eye on that area, particularly when the Premier calls it the most neglected area in the Province. l1R. MARSHALL: Mr.

Speaker, a point of order. MR. SPEAKER: Order -,. 'Please! The hon. President of the Council on a point of order. MR. MARSHALL: I hesitate to interrupt the hon. gentleman, but the hon. gentleman, Mr. Speaker, is making a speech. The purpose of the Question Period is to address a question to a minister. I think the hon. gentleman is in the realm of making a speech 1 which is out of order. MR. SPEAKER: I remind hon. members again that questions should be brief and answers should be brief. The hon. _member for Eagle River. 5471

May 26, 1983 Tape No. 2574 NM ~ 2 MR. HISCOCK: The question is to the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan), With regard to the operation of the St. Lewis plant~ Fishery Products operated it for years but pulled out of there as well as Cartwright and Packs Harbour, although I believe they are going back to Packs Harbourt I do not believe Fishery Products is going back to St. Lewis, but that another company~Earles Limited of Carbonear,is supposed to t~ke over. Can the minister confirm that Earles will be going into St.

Lewis and if they will be operating the plant at the same capacity ·as last year and, also, will they be providing fuel to fishermen in that area of the coast? MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The han. Minister of Fisheries. MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, the Labrador Coast,of course,is always of concern to the Government of Newfoundland and to my colleague and other colleagues regarding the development of • the co.ast and fisheries in particular, I recall saying last week when I spoke answering questions on Labrador that it is difficult to get the private sector to do much on the coast.

It usually involves government and the spending of government dol~ars, federal or provincial, to get some activity. Fishery Products did move out of a place called Fox Harbour- St.

Lewis is the right name~ it was called Fox Harbour, next to Battle Harbour- and we have been successfu~ as a result of Fishery Products Limited moving out, away from the coast, in talking to a number of potential operators and companies that go into the coast, andwe are now successful in attracting Earles Freighting, or Fred Earle Limited of Carbonear, who has been well known in the fish business over the years, and he will be operating that facility,which is owned by the Government 5472

May 26, 1983 Tape No. 2574 NM - 3 MR. MORGAN: of Newfoundland 1 at St. Lewis and we will be leasing the facility to Earles Freighting and granting the necessary licences to that company, taking them back from Fishery Products and giving ' 5473

May 26, 1983 Tape No. 2575 SD - 1 MR. MORGAN: them to the Earle Freighting Limited of Carbo near. Over the last few days I have been in conversation with Mr. Fred Earle, who is the principal of the company, and he has informed me they are now in the process of moving in fuels and other supplies for the fishermen in that area this Summer. MR. HISCOCK: MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : for Eagle River. MR. HISCOCK: Supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Supplementary, the hon. member This question also is to the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) with regard to Red Bay in Southern Labrador.

Last year the plant at Red Bay was operated by W.J. Buruon Company of England. The Saltfish Corporation paid this company $50,000 .for th~ fish but this $50,000 never did get to the fishermen, who are still out of pocket. Can the Minister of Fisheries inform this House what action the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador is taking to recover this money and to make sure that the fishermen of Red Bay get paid? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Fisheries. MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, we have had meetings with Mr.

Aiden Maloney, the acting Chairman of the Saltfish Corportation, one of the best men, I guess, in the fishing industry today . bar none, knowledgeable in the industry, .and he has been quite involved in trying to resolve that very complex issue where the operator, W. J. Burton 1 had financial difficulties last year and left bills unpaid to the fishermen, bills unpaid to suppliers both at Red Bay on the Labrador side and at Brig Bay in my colleague's district on the St. Barbe Coast. As a result of these meetings with the 5474 .....

May. 26, 1983 Tape No . 2575 so - 2 MR. MORGAN: Saltfish Corporation 1 every effort is being made by the Newfoundland Department of Fisheries 1 in conjunction with the Saltfish Corporation, or vice versa 1 to see that the bills outstanding are paid, and the bills from the fishermen in particular. At the same time, the Newfoundland government is trying to find someone to move in to take over these two plants . W.J . Burton will be gone, moving out, unable to carry on because of financial problems, but it looks pretty definite that both these facilities will be in operation.

In fact, we are confident there __ w~ll be an operator for the Red ~ay plant . At Brig Bay, we may very well have to operate directly through the Saltfish Corporation without a private sector company . MR. HISCOCK: Supplementary, Mr . Speaker . 5475

May 26, 1983 MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : MR. HISCOCK: to the Minister of Fisheries. Tape 2576 PK - 1 The hen. member for Eagle River. A final question, Mr. Speaker, Under the Coastal Labrador DREE agreement, the federal government have now decided to enter into only 50/50 cost shared arrangements with the provincial government on the plants the provincial government owns. For example, the St. Lewis, Labrador, plant was built out of a Canada Works project and various other ones were built out of free labour and material given during the Smallwood administration.

As well, others in Mary's Harbour, Black Tickle, William's HarboQr and Cartwright were built by the provincial government. These need to be upgraded if we are going to take advantage of the Northern cod, because we have a lot of over-the-side sales down there. The Provincial Department of Fisheries, in letters that I received from the deputy minister, say they will not enter into a cost-sharing basis of 50/50, they will only enter into a 90/10. The federal government say they will not enter into it unless ·it is 50/50. And as a result, the people in that area are going to see more over-the-side sales.

Can the Minister of Fisheries inform this House if his department and this government continue to maintain the position that they will not get into a cost-sharing basis unless it is a 90/10, they will not go into a 50/50 cost-sharing arrangement? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Fisheries. MR. MORGAN: Well, Mr. Speaker, when the funding was supplied for the Labrador CQast, initially it was supplied through the Department of DREE, and we had allocated $3 million to develop the facilities along the Labrador Coast. Then the minister at the time, Mr.

Romeo LeBlanc, decided - and he made his decision public - that the federal government was not getting enough credit for its activities in fisheries in Newfoundland, and 5476

May 26, 1983 Tape 2576 PK - 2 MR. MORGAN: too much credit was going to the Newfoundland Government, etc. Because of that, he decided to take the program away from DREE and put it in the Federal Department of Fisheries, to be administered totally by that department. That meant they left the Newfoundland funding side on the table here in Newfoundland and we could not participate. They had decided to go it on their own 100 per cent, with less money. As a result of that, that was three years ago, the federal government have not yet spent too much of that fund.

As the han, gentleman is aware, they . have done studies and further studies, they engaged NORDCO to do some work for them, and still there is not teo much activity in developing the facilities. Now they come back to the private sector companies and offer them 50/50 cost­ sharing, and some of the companies, for example, the company at Smokey, w. J. Hiscock, have taken advantage of that funding. But we are saying to them, 'We had an agreement, 90/10, and we were read~ to spend our money with you. Then you decided to back off and go on your ow ·n.

Now you decide you cannot do it on your own you are back J.ooking for fifty cent 5477

May 26, 1983 Tape No. 2577 MJ ~ 1 MR. MORGAN: dollars from us . ~'!hat is the game?' So as a result of that 1 I held discussions with the new minister, Hr. De Bane 1 and all ~ can $ay at this time,because we are in the midst of some very important discussions as it pertains to fish,eries development in: the Province, is that as a result of these discussions we are both determined to get some development along the Labrador Coast with regards to the upgrading of existing fish plants .

And most of the fish plants along the Labrador Coast are owned by this government, they were built under a cost-shared programme over the years but they are owned by the Newfoundland Government,and it is going to take substantial amounts of money to upgrade these plants and they need upgrading.

So, all I can say at this time in answering the han. gentleman's question is that the two governments, the two Departments of Fisheries in particular, have been discussing the problems of the fish plants that need upgrading along the Labrador Coast,and we are hoping to have something positive for the Labrador Coast in that regard some time over the next month, if at all possible. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Order, please! The time for the Question Period has expired. PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker. HR. SPEAKER: The han. the President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL : Mr.

Speaker, I want to table the annual report for Ne,..rfoundland and Labrador Hydro. MR. NEARY: Hear, hear! 5478

May 26, 1983 Tape No. 2577 MJ - 2 MR. MARSHALL: I have additional cop~es nere and if there are any other copies needed by member~,I thin~ the Clerk can get them from Hydro. MRS • NEWHOOK: MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Affairs. MR.'i • NEWHOOK: NOTICES OF MOTION Mr. Speaker. The hon. the Minister of Hunic;ipa,l Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow a~k leave to ;introduce a b~11 entitled, "An Act To Amend The City Of st. John Is Loan Act, 1978. ,. ~.ffi.. WINDSOR: MR. SPEAKER: MR. WINDSOR: PRESENTING PETITIONS Mr. Speaker. The hon. the Minister of Deve~op~ent, Mr.

Speaker, I peg leave today to present a petition which han. gentlemen can see has been signed by some 811 constituents of th .e great and historic district of Mount Pearl, And I might add, ~r. Speaker, that this petition,dealing with the need fo;r; expanded school facilities in the district of Mount Pearl, represents not only the opinion of these 81L people it represents the opinions of all the people of Mount Pearl since the problem is not unique jus~ to the Ro~an Catholic School system, as represented by this petition, but as well by the Amalgamated school System.

I know I speak with confidence when I say that the opinions expressed in this peti tion ._~e . ~n fact, those of every resident of th.e district of Mount Pearl. The prayer of the petition, ~~. Speaker, is as follows: "WHEREAS the existing facility, Mary Queen of the Worl,d High school is overburdened with students to the 5479

May 26, 1983 Tape No. 2577 MJ ~ 3 MR. WINDSOR : point that the avera9e teacher; • student ratio far exceeds that r-ecommenqed by the Department of Education ; and

WHEREAS the existing portable classrooms al."e tb,e o1de:;t portable classroOllls in the system and have :r;rea,cb,ed a point where the safety and health of th.e studEI;Ilts have been brought into quest~on; and

WHEREAS Mount Pearl is the fastest grow ·ing community · ,in this region with new residential construct~on taking place continuousl y thereby compounding the problem of adequate space to properly house our students; and

WHEREAS a lack of laboratory facilities with.i)l Mary Queen of the World High School places our students at a disadvantage when compared with other h:i;gh schoo.1s in the region; and WBE;~ we feel. our youth are ou;r strongest futur-e ·reso-q;r: .ce and they deserve every possible consi,derat;~on tQ .Prepare them for their futul:.'e 1 we the unders;i.<;Jned do hereby petition 5480

May 26, 1983 Tape No. 2578 JV - l MR. WINDSOR: our provincial government to make sufficient monies available to have a Catholic High School constructed in Mount Pearl to be ready for commencement of the 1984-85 school year~ Mr. Speaker, I support this petition because there is no doubt,in fact,that the district of Mount Pearl probably has the most pressing need of any district in our Province at the moment for a new high school and, in fact, school facilities generally. The district of Mount Pearl and the town of Mount Pearl, in fact,is probably the f'astest growing community in Eastern Canada.

Without a doubt in fact the Newtown area of Mount Pearl is, of course, the growth potential area for the capital city region. We are, in fact, developing. In the Housing Corporation, we have sold in the last year over 200 building lots which are either built on now or being built on and, no doubt, that will impact on the availability of space within our schools,and we have about another 60 lots that have been sold this year and are now under construction and another 230 lots,just in the Newtown area alone,that will be available for building this year. So, Mr.

Speaker, that, no doubt, is going to put an extreme strain on the facilities available for schools, pa 'rticularly the Roman Catholic high school facilities in Mount Pearl. Just to give you an example of the growth of the student population,figures indicate that over the four year period from 1977 to 1981 there was a 35.6 per cent increase or 7.1 per cent per year. Mr. Speaker, I would .. ch~ -llenge any other 5481

May 26, 1983 Tape No. 2578 JV - 2 MR. WINDSOR: district in the Province to come up with a rate of growth such as that. I visited last night with a number of the members of the action committee, some of whom are in the galleries today, and I welcorced that 1 to discuss this problem with them and I took the time to look at some of the units that are present .ly being utilized, particularly at Mary Queen of the World. At the moment there are nine portable classrooms which are probably almost twenty years old, which house from Grades III to V,as well as some special education and remedial reading groups, Mr. Speaker.

Another five portable classrooms which are not as old nevertheless are removed from the physical location of the main building so students who want to take

part in physical education activities, library activities and other activities have to go outside regardless of wind and weather, and you are talking of primary students, Mr. Speaker, housed in these particular units. Just to give an example of the overcrowding 1the cafeteria at Mary Queen of the World seats 180 people.Now there are over 900 students attending school at Mary Queen of the -World so that means, even with two shifts, we still have nearly 300 children who have to eat their lunch in their cla~srooms, they do not have the advantage of going to the cafeteria, not to mention, Mr.

Speaker, the restraint on providing physical education instruction, science instruction -- - - r - ~ ' -- •- - - ' '"' and special education instruction when you do not have - -- ~ - . -· -- -·- the space, even though under the student/teacher ratio extra instructors might be available in accordance with the per capita allocations that are made. 5482

May 26 , 1983 Tape No . 2578 JV - 3 MR. WINDSOR: Talking of the St. Peter ' s school , Mr . Speaker, which is a ne~o~er facility but nevertheless is experiencing the same overcrowding . The best example I can give you of that - Grade VIII in that school has two streams

whereas Grades III to VII have three, Grades I to II have four and kindergarten has five . No'w,itt is obvious that if they onl y have two streams of Grade VIII and five o.f kindergarten and various amounts in between,that 5483

May 26, .L983 Tape 2579 EC - 1 MR. WINDSOR: we are heading into a very serious situation in St.Peter's as well. All in all, Mr. Speaker, I think the numbers indicate that the total projected enrol- ment for the two schools in 1984 - 1985 is about 2,235 . That was projected in 1982, only a year or so ago. Today, or as of February 4th of this year, that has been increased oy some 412. In just over a year, the projections have increased by some 412 so that we now predict some 2,696 students. Those are just the students who are presently registered in the system.

With some of the growth potential that I ~alked about earlier and the possibility of transfer- ring some students in from other areas, we Qould be talking close to 2, 900 students "1-Tith a school capacity of less than 2,000. I realize I am out of time, Mr. Speaker, and I beg that this petition be tabled and referred to the department to which it relates. SuME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Russell): The han. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, we support the prayer of the petition presented by the han. gentleman on behalf of 814 people who live in the community of Mount Pearl. We are well aware of the problems encountered by the various school boards in that area, Mr. Speaker. The hon. gentleman, at the tail end of his remarks, I believe, referred also to the integrated school board that has a problem down ther~ . and they dd not know how they are going to be able to cop~ with the situation~rith the projected enrolment for September coming. They have a real problem there now, a lack of toilet space and so forth and so on.

And, of course, the problems at Mary Queen of the World are also very bad. So we support the petition, Mr. Speaker. 5484

"- May 26, 1983 Tape 25.79 EC - 2 MR. NEARY: The han. gentleman, of course, realizes that this is a matter for the school board. What the petitioners want the government to do is to give the money over to the school board to enable them to build a new school • . Now, Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman is in the right positi~n to do something about that. The hon. gentleman is in a decision-making capacity. As a m~.~er of the Cabinet, the hon. gentleman has to persuade his colleagues to give the Minister of Education more funding for the R.C. School Board so that they can build this new school. Now, Mr.

Speaker, I do not know how far the hon. gentleman is prepared to push this, he should be prepared to push this matter to the brink of almost resigning from the Cabinet if his colleagues do not accede to his request. The han. gentleman now has gone public, gone on the public record as saying that he supports this request from his constituents, navhe has to make a decision between the Cabinet and his constituents. Maybe he will be successful in persuading the Cabinet to give the R.C. School Board the money they need to build this new school. But in the event that he does not, Mr.

Speaker, what will the han. gentleman do? Will he still stay in the Cabinet? HR. WARREN: And the Integrated School Board. MR. NEARY: And money for the Integrated School Board so they can upgrade their system also, Mr. Speaker. So the han. gentleman is right in the driver's seat. He is a senio.t.· minister in the government and the government makes the decision on funding,, on financing for education in this Province, for funding for school boards. He is probably a potential Premier so, 5485

May 26, 1983 Tape No. 2580 SD - 1 MR. NEARY: the hon. gentleman is right in the driver's seat and, Mr. Speaker, we will anxiously watch the performance of the hon. gentleman. In the event that he is unable to persuade his colleagues to give the school board this badly needed money, what will the hon . . gentleman do? Will he continue to support that administration or will he come down on the side of his constituents? That is the decision facing th~ hon. gentleman, Mr. Speaker. So we will be watching the hon. gentleman's performance in this House in the future as far as this matter is concerned.

We whole-heartedly support the prayer of the petition, Mr. Speaker, and we wish the hon. gentleman well with the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) and his colleagues in Cabinet. MR. SPEAKER (Russell): The hon. Minister of Education. MS. VERGE: Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to respond to the petition so well presented by my colleague the Minister of Development and the member of the House of Assembly for Mount Pearl (Mr. Windsor}.

I, along with the officials of my department, will carefully consider the request embodied in the prayer of this petition for a new facility for the Roman Catholic population of Mount Pearl, as well as representations we received from groups related to other school boards in the Mount Pearl area and in several other areas of the Province for new school construction.

I would like to remind . all hon. members that government has provided to the Denominational Education Committees for the purpose of new school construction over the last three years, this new fiscal year included, over $50 million,for new school construction. In the three years that coincide with the phase-in of the re-organized high school programme, the fiscal years 1981-82, 1982-83 and 1983-84, there will be close to $60 million worth of new school construction across our Province. That includes 5486

~1ay 26, 1983 Tape No . 2580 so - 2 MS . VERGE: expansion of high school facilities to support the expansion of the high school programme and the extra grade , as well as improvement of facilities for kindergarten through Grade IX. In the present fiscal year, the budget which we recently brought down makes provision for $14.1 million block funding to the Denominational Educational Committees for new school construction in the 1983 -84 year. Now, Mr . Speaker, as I am sure all hon . members are aware, under our Denominational Education System government co -operates with 5487

Hay 26, 1983 Tape No. 2581 NM - 1 MS. VERGE: the churches who have rights in education under the Constitution in fi~ancing school construction. Government's rcle is limited to providing block funding to - SOME HON. ME!1BERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER (Russell): Order, please! MS. VERGE: - these church authorities who are the Denomitiational Education Committees. The Denominational Education Committees in turn solely decide how and where those government funds are to be spent. For every construction project the recipient school board has to contribute a minimum of 10 per cent to the cost of the project. MR.

NEARY: the money or are you not? MR. SPEAKER: MS. VERGE: Are you going to give them Order, please! Mr. Speaker, in

summary government has generously funded new school construction in this present fiscal year as well as the last two years,to make possible close to $60 million worth of new school construction in our Province - .r-m. NEARY: What arrogance! Are you going to give them the 110ney? MR. MARSHALL: MR •. SPEAKER: A point of order, Mr. Spe~er. Order, please! The hon. President of the Council on a point of order. MR. MARSHALL: The Minister of Education is responding to the petition.

I am sure there .are people in the House, visitors in this House, who are interested in what she has to say and I think she should be able to do it unimpeded by the low type of reaction; the hon. gentlemen interrupting the han. minister. MR. SPEAKER: 'Order, please! The hon. Minister·of Education does have a total of five minutes to respond to the petition, she also has the right to be heard 5488

May 26, 1983 Tape No. 2581 MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : in silence. MS. VERGE: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. I was having trouble hearing myself there towards the end because the member for LaPoile district (Mr. Neary), the Leader of the Opposition, was talking continuously and drowning out what I was trying to say in response to the petition of the Roman Catholic parents in the Mount Pearl area. NM- 2 Mr.

Speaker, as I was saying, in this present fiscal year government is providing $14.1 million for new school construction, that is over $14 million that will be spent by the Denominational Education Committees who have the sole say on which projects will be funded with those public funds, in· 'co.njunction with 10 per cent contributions from school boards, and this will culminate the high school expansion programme coinciding with the phase in of Grade XII. So, Mr. Speaker, by the end of this fiscal year we will have the benefit in our Province of much improved school facilities. Mr.

Speaker, government does not have the right or the power to direct capital funding to a specific school project for the St. John's Roman Catholic Board in Mount Pearl. 5489

May 26 , 1983 Tape 2582 PK - 1 MS. VERGE: Government simply provides ; block funding to the Denominational Education Committees with the Roman Catholic Committee getting its proportionate share which is now about 36 per cent, and then the Catholic Education Committee deciding how and where those public funds are to be spent. Mr. Speaker, I say to the member for Mount Pearl (Mr. Windsor) that he should advise his constituents, if they .have not al=eady done so,to also present their petition to the Catholic Education Committee which is the partner with government in financing school construction. SOME HON.

MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER (Ru ssell) : Order, please! The hon. member for Fogo. MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, I rise to present a petition 6n behalf of some twenty-eight residents MR· NEARY: She shot you down, 'Neil', boy! MR. TULK: - of the Town of Lumsden,and I would like to read the prayer of the petition into the record.

It says: 'We the undersigned residents of Centennial Road, Lumsden, Fogo district,wish to petition the provincial government for funds for the extension of sewer facilities to our area of the town of Lumsden. 'The Department of Health following a recent investigation of our area has informed us that a serious health hazard exists. We are hopeful of having this situation . remedied in the near future. ' Mr.

Speaker, I think it is worthy of note that what the people of Lumsden are asking for,the the twenty-eight names on the petition, is an extension of the sewer facili .ties that presently exist in the town of Lumsden. They are not ,asking for a whole ,new system in that town. I think it comes to something like $100,000 worth of work. Mr. Speaker, the reason for the need of the extension of that 5490

May 26, 1983 Tape 2582 PK - 2 MR. TULK: service is as a result of,as the Minister of Development (Mr. Windsor) said in his town, in the town of Mount Pearl, is the result of the expansion that has recently taken plac .e in Lumsden, over the last t.en or fifteen years, whereby there has been a new road opened up for housing and those people have built their houses on it. Mr. Speaker, it is wortlJ_y of note that the prayer of the petition states that the Department of Health following an investigation has in£orrned those people living along that road that a serious health hazard exists.

In other words, what we are looking at here is an eme .rgency situation. Mr. Speaker, on Monday afternoon I happened to visit that area, I visited one of my co .ns ·tituents in that area, at his request, to look at what was nappening. Mr. Speaker, it is pitiful to see what a person living in that area has to live with. Here is a young man, an industrious young man who has built himself one o£ the better homes in Lumsden, and the people of Lumsden are ·noted for their good houses, Mr. Speaker, ~y are beautiful homes, 5491

May 26, 1983 Tape No . 2 58 3 NM - 1 MR. TULK: and it is outrageous to see what you can see by the side of his building lot. Right next to his lot, Mr. Speaker, is practically raw sewerage. And I have to bring that to the attention of the House, and to ;·.the attention of the Minister of Municipal Affairs (Mrs. Newhook), it is what I would call one ungodly sight, if you look out among the few trees that are there. The . day I was there was a fairly cold day and the smell was there, Mr. Speaker, and I can imagine what it must be like on hot days.

As a matter of fact,the situation is such that he is afraid, his wife is afraid, as parents they are afraid to let their children just go out and play in their own yard, in their own sand box. So, Mr. Speaker, I place -- . this petition to her department, asking her to please take, if she has not included in her capital funding for this year the extension to the town sewer system, to take this on as an emergency project. Because what we are going to see here I think, before this Summer is out, a situation where people's health is going ·to be affected. Now, Mr.

Speaker, the minister may say, "Well, there has been no representation on this matter". That is not quite correct,and I do not believe she will. I hope she does not. Because as I underst-and it from the mayor of the town, I was talking to him today, last Fall a delegation came to see the deputy minister, the minis -ter I do not think was availab2e, and they were promised that they were going to get an engineering study done of the requirements of that town. Obviously we know what happened last Fall, we 5492

Hay 26, 1983 Tape No. 2583 NM: - 2 HR. TULK: had that mini-budget that the Hinister of Finance (Dr. Collins) brought in and he took every dollar that he could find, and cut the Hunicipal Affairs estimates such that they later told them the project could not go ahead, the engineering studies could not be done.

I would ask the minister, and ask the department, now th~t this year is here, before ·we get into the Fall again and we get some more cuts from the Hinister of Finance, I would ask the minister to see that indeed this project is carried out, the engineering studies are done, and the project is indeed carried out. Otherwise, Hr. Speaker, we are again going to be looking at a situation in this Province that indeed could be a health hazard,that nobody has bargained for in Lumsden, a,nd that they should not have to live with. Thank you, very much. HR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The han. Leader of the Opposition. 5493

May 26, 1983 Tape No. 2584 JV - 1 MR. NEARY: I wholeheartedly support the prayer of the petition so ~bly presented by my colleague, the member for Fogo (Mr. Tulk). Mr. Speaker, the petition was well presented, well documented and I congratulate the hon. gentleman for making such a fine presentation on behalf of his constituents. !.ffi. HODDER: A hard working member. MR. NEARY: A hard working member of the House of Assembly. Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman was very descriptive - AN RON. MEMBER: Very articulate. MR.

NEARY: Yes, very articulate and very dramatic in describing the conditions that he saw last Monday afternoon when he visited Centennial Road in Lumsden, Mr. Speaker. The hon. gentleman almost went as far as to say the the sewerage was squeezing up between your \ toes when you walked along certain parts of the road, Mr. Speaker, and I think in this day and age that is terrible and an indictment of the administration and the government in power. The government have been very secret about .the lists so far this year, of projects that will be carried out.

I understand that yesterday the deputy. minister wired the various councils around Newfoundland telling them if they were going to get water and sewer projects this year,or cost-shared paving,or extensions to projects already underway. They are so secret about it they will not even table a list in this House, Mr. Speaker. The telegrams went out yesterday, I understand, from the minister's office . The minister will tell anybody in the world what is going to be done in the way of water and , sewer projects this year except this House of Assembly, 5494

May 26, 1983 Tape No. 2584 JV - 2 MR. NEARY: where we have to approve the spending. To the minister it is all top secret. Mr. Speaker, I invite the hon. minister to stand and support this petition. The hon. minister was not here to hear the description of the horrible conditions on Centennial Road in Lumsden,on Fogo Island, where people do not ask for very much In Fogo district the people are very patient people - HR. TULK: Hard working. MR. NEARY: -hard working people. !n Lumsden they are very hard working people and, Mr.

Speaker, they are entitled to better treatment than they are getting from this administration so I hope that my hon. colleague wasable to persuade the hon. minister and the administration to extend the sewer facilities in Lumsden to include Centennial Road, to eliminate this health hazard that currently exis~ in that community. Mr. Speaker, it was a worthwhile presentation on the part of the hon. gentleman and I congratulate him for the excellent way in which he is representing his district and his constituents. MRS. NEWHOOK: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The han. the Minister of Municipal affairs. 5495

May 26, 1983 Tape No. 2585 so -1 MRS. NEWHOOK: I am sorry that I did not hear the petition,but the MHA for that district did speak to me about it yesterday. I accept the petition and certainly I would like to take a good look at it and I will certainly look into the situation. He is asking for a study. MR. TULK: No, do the study and then the work. MR. NEWHOOK: It does seem that the Leader of the Opposition (~r. Neary) is criticizing our government for doing too many .studies. MR. TULK: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (.Russell): Order, please! A point of order, the hon. member for Fogo. MR.

TULK: The minister was not in the House when I presented the petition and I do not want to interrupt her,but what I want to say to her is this, that I was saying to her, do the study and then immediately do the work. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Fogo did not raise a valid point of order. MR. TULK: I made my point though. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Municipal Affairs. MRS'. NEWHOOK: Mr. Speaker, I did say that I accept the petition and I will certainly look into the matter. We will have our regional office in Gander go down to Lumsden and take a look.

I am not committing myself or my department to a study,but certainly if it is necessary we will do that study and we will do it as quickly as we possibly can. MR. SPEAKE'R: MR •. MATTHEWS : The hon. member fo:r:: Grand Bank. Mr. Speaker, I rise to present a petition on behalf of the residents of the community of Point May who are des.irous of improved and additional television service to tha:t presently offered by CBC. The_ petition, ,Mr. 5496

Z.1ay 26, 1983 Tape No . 2685 so - 2 MR. MATTHENS : Speaker , contains 192 signatures, all signed by residents of Point May . ~~d, Mr . Speaker, it it my understanding that NTV is presently licenced to service the area but the conununities of Point May, Lamaline, Point au Gaul and Lord's Cove are presently not receiving an adequate signal from NTV. AN HON. MEMBER: :hey have been lucky . MR. MATTHEWS : Yes, that may be the case ~ut they do not think so ,becaus~ they are restricted to one channel, .Mr: Speaker . They do not have the choice of cable as do the more affluent areas such as St.

John 's, Grand Bank and Fortune . Mr . Speaker, on my frequent visits to the communities of my district, particularly the communities that I have mentioned previously, I have witnessed first hand 'theinadequateTV service there and certainly the signal they are receiving from NTV is adequate. So, 5497

May 26, 1983 Tape 2586 EC - l MR. MATTHEWS: Mr. S~eaker, I support the prayer of the petition and I call upon all hon. members present to support same. MR. HISCOCK: ~SPEAKER (Russell ): MR. HISCOCK: Mr • Speaker • The hon. the member for Eagle River. Mr. Speaker, I support this petition 100 per cent on behalf of the residents of Point May, Lamaline, Lord's Cove and Point au Gaul. It is an area that I know very well because I have relatives in Lawn. It is also a problem that I know extrem~ly well because of representing coastal Labrador.

I learned through talking with a person £rom Ottawa who ~s working with one of the satellite companies,that they have been employed by the federal government to go across the North West Territories and put in this _system, CanCom, a~l along the North West Territories in very, very small communities of 250, 300 or 400 people. I met the person when he was on his way to Argentia to install this system for the American Base. And I would say that the Minister of Communications (Mr.

Doyle) could probably look into the possibiiity of us in this Prov~nce w~th our remote rural areas getting into a similar programme in joint co-operation with the £ederal government, gettiug into sort of a CanCorn system, provide these satellites, and hopefully- maybe it is quite possible that New£oundland and Labrador Hydro could be the delivery agent for it, or Newfoundland Telephone Company or the C~N. telephone company, Mr. Speaker, the name of which escapes me at the moment.

But I believe that this is the route that we have to take because private enterprise itself, NTV and the cable T.V. companies cannot do it. But I do think that if we go this route with CanCom, the 5498

May 26, 1983 Tap e 2586 EC - 2 MR. lliSCOCK: satellite dishes,that in a few years, instead of it being $5,000, if we buy them in a package we should get them for $4,000 or $3,000. I would hope that the Minister of Communications (Mr. Doyle) would look into the pvssibility of setting up some type of small Crown corporation to provide a satellite receiving system in remote rural areas of this Province. And, as I said, the delivery agent for this could probably be Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro. It is an ar~a, as I said, Mr.

Speaker, that I know very well and the 192 residents in Lamaline, Point May, Lord's Cove and Point au Gaul deserve better service. I would go as far as to say - and I think the member £or Grand Bank (Mr. Matthews) would agree with me - the area in Grand Bank that is most neglected, most forgotten by this government is the foot, the toe of the Burin Peninsula. That is an area that needs to be upgraded and provided with ~~catkms. so, Mr. Speaker, I support this petition but, as an Opposition~ember, I am not in a position to do anything ~out it. I hope 5499

May 26, 1983 Tape No. 2587 MJ - 1 MR. HISCOCK: that the member fOJ grand Bank (Mr. Matthews) will use his influence with the Minister of Communications (Mr. Doyle). We have a Minister of Communications and I beginning to wonder why, Mr. Speaker, unless it is to have a ministry of propaganda to point out these leaflets that the government has. But I hope, Hr.

Speaker, that the government wi~l look at the possibility of, not only for Point May, not only for the Coast of Labrador but for other rural areas of this Province, setting up a Crown Corporation to look at the possibility of providing satellite discs to these areas and the government becoming a delivery agent for it in co-operation with private enterprise,like Newfoundland Telephone or some of the other ones I have mentioned. So, Mr. Speaker, I support this petition 100 •per cent as pointed out. MR. NEARY: You do not have to pay for NTV, it is free. MR. HISCOCK: So, I would hope, Mr.

Speaker, that this does become a reality. I remember, Mr. Speaker, as a child going down over the Burin Peninsula when it was not paved - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Order, please! MR. HISCOCK: - before they had the DREE schools, before they had the shipyard, before they had the fish plants. The Burin Peninsula has come a long way under the Liberal Government of the past,.under this government and under the federal government. It has to come a lot further now and I would go so far as to say, Mr.

Spe~ker, that if we were the government and we had a Minister of Communications we would set up ~hj~~-~~~ Corporation and we would do something about this. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. 5500

..._. May 26, 1983 Tape No, 2587 MJ - 2 MR. DOYLE: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon. the Minister of Co~unic~t~ons. MR. DOYLE: Mr. Speaker, on behalf of the government I am pleased to accept this pet:i,tion on beh~lf of the residents of Port May so ably presented by my colleague, the member for Grand Bank (Mr. Matthews). As members of the hon. House are aware, 11r. Speaker, the provincial government cannot directly effect the provision of broadcasting services within the Province, that is a federal responsibility and nobody disputes that. However, Mr.

Speaker, government believes-and we consistently articulated this policy over the lasti.number of years - government believes that all residents of Newfoundland should have access to a very broad range of television and telecommunication services J within the Province. We have and we will continue to encourage both the private and the public broadcasters within the Province to extend their services to all Newfoundland communities. So, Mr.

Speaker, I w:i,ll with pleasure make representation to the local broadcaster in this case which happens to be the Newfoundland Telev;i!3ion Network, or NTV, and also we will make representation to the regulatory agency, in this case it happens to be the Canadian Radio Television Telecommunications Commission. We will make representation to them 5501

May 26, 1983 Tape No. 2588 NI1 - 1 MR. DOYLE: make representation to them as well on behalf of the 185 to 200 . people in the Point May area. Arrl not only will we do that, Mr. Speaker, we will also advise residents in the Point May area, and any other area in the Province as well,of what types of alternative services there are presently in existence and available to these people in underserved areas. Of course, Mr.

Speaker, I will be asking officials within the Communications Division to give any assistance which the communities may need regarding the provision of that additional programmingfor these communities. Now, Mr. Speaker, we are all aware of the fact that there are a number of communities in and around Newfoundland, especially up along the Labrador Coast which do not have access to the second television service, As a matt~r of fact, there are a number of communities along the Labrador Coast that do not have access to CBC service, Paradise River being one,f~r instance. And when I say, Mr.

Speaker, that there are alternative services available- ·and I want to point out this because it shows how very little the member for Eagle River knows about communications and I would like to read it into the record also, or to have it go on record, that the hon. member for Eagle River (Mr. Hiscockl, who happens to be the Opposition spokesman on communications has yet to rise in this House to ask me a question on communications and he will stand up in this House today and criticize and all the rest of it, but he still does not have the knowledge to ask a question on communications.

But getting back to the alternative services that are available to the people of Newfoundland if they wish ~o take advantage of it, there are a number of services available right now that have c.:o2 ..-~

May 26, 1983 Tape No. 2588 NM ~- 2 MR. DOYLE: been designed specifically for underserved areas of the Province. And I am re-ferring, of course,to the CanCom service which the hon. gentleman from Eagle River (Mr. Hiscock) made reference to a few minutes ago. MR. HISCOCK: Yes. Yes. MR. DOYLE: I£ the hon. gentleman would be quiet I will tell him a little bit about this matter and I will show him also how the people in various communities can get along without paying for this service. As I said a few moments ago, Mr.

Speaker, I am referring to the CanCom service which is widely being applied for now by various groups and various private entrepreneurs around the Province. I am not aware at this point in time if the residents of Point May have an application in before the CRTC to have this type of service. However, if there is not,then government will gladly make available to the residents of Point May and indeed to any area of the Province, the expertise within the Communications 5503

May 26, 1983 Tape 2589 PK - l MR. DOYLE: Division who will assist groups and individuals all across the Province from the initial point of making the application for the service up to the point where the application is either accepted or rejected. Right now, Mr. Speaker, it is possible for residents in underserved areas of the Province to have access to almost as much television service in the remote areas of the Province as they have in the urban,more widely populated areas. And that is made possible with the advent, Mr.

Speaker, of the cancom service, which initially provided four channels incidentially, one out of Vancouver, one out of Edmonton, one out of Hamilton, and one out of Montreal. What you have now, Mr. Spesker, in addition to that,is the American signals being made available legally on CanCom, that is, NBC, ABC, CBS, and PBS, the same American signal, PBS,which Shelburn Cable of Corner Brook, incidentally, was dragged through the courts for a few months, when they were providing that service, and forced to spend astronomical sums of money on that case, and finally lost it.

That same PBS signal ls now available on the CanCom service and it will be put up on Canadian satellite very shortly, and it will be made available as a package of programming - MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : MR. ROBERTS: MR. SPEAKER: leave to continue? SOME HON •. MEMBERS : MR. SPEAKER: MR. DOYLE: Order, please! The hon. minister's time has expired. Let him carry on. By leave. Does the hon. minister have Agreed.' Agreed. -and it will be made available Mr. Speaker, on the CanCom package called the Three Plus One service.

So what you will have is a~tually four television channels out of the Three Plus One package, also four more on 5504

May 26, 1983 Tape 2589 PK - 2 MR. DOYLE: the first package of Cancom for a total of seven channels which a community may apply for. These services are now available to the people of Point Ma~ or the people up a long the Labrador Coast. I remember just a couple of months ago, as a matter of fact, Mr. Speaker, I went up and held public meetings in approximately twelve or fifteen communities in the hon. gentleman's district, the member for Eagle River (Mr. Hiscock), and explained to the people in each of these communities how they could go about getting that service.

They do not have to wait for private individuals to come into these communities to make these services available, all they have to do is organize themselves into small associations or small committees,apply to the CRTC for a licence, have it done under the guidance, if they want to, of the Communications Division here, we will give them all of the assistance and expertise that we have in that division, And just a couple of months ago, as I mentioned, in making this tour of the Labrador Coast we went into one community, Paradise River, that only has a population of anywhere between eighty and hundred people; we held a public meeting in that community and made the people aware of what they could do.

Since that the people of Paradise River 5505

,. May 26, 1983 Tape No. 2590 so - 1 MR. DOYLE: have gotten themselves organized into an association, they have applied to the CRTC for this CanCom package and Three Plus One . Funding for that has been approved only a couple of weeks ago under the Coastal Labrador DREE Agreement, which is S0/50 cost shared funding between the Province and the federal government. And there is absolutely no reason to believe that the CRTC will not approve these seven or eight channels .

So what you have there is an example of a small community like Paradise River with only 100 or 150 people who now will have as a result of this policy approximately seven channels in that small community . Now, I could go on for an hour or more on this, Mr. Speaker, but I only have five minutes and I do not want to belabou .r the point at this time . But I will take the petition that the hon. gentleman has presented and do everything in our power to address it . Thank you . 5506

May 26, 1983 Tape No. 2590 SD - 2 ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. MARSHALL: Motion 2, the Loan Bill, Mr. Speaker. On motion, that the House resolve itself into Committee of the Whole to consider certain resolutions relating to the raising of loans by the Province, Mr. Speaker left the Chair. COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE MR. CHAIRMAN CAylward) : Order, please! We are doing Bill No. 37. Shall the resolution carry? MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, during this debate we have had quite a bit of banter back and forth across the · House, quite a bit of discussion, especially from the Minister of Finance (_Dr. Collins) who is piloting this bill through the House, about the performance of this administration compared to th .e performance of the former Liberal administration. Now since yesterday was ·Private Members' Day it gave me an opportunity to take a look at the track record of this administration and compare it to the track record of the former Liberal administration. Because you see, Mr. Chairman, one 5507

May 26, 1983 Tape No. 2591 JV- 1 MR. NEARY: of the big objections we have to the way that this government has been borrowing and spending --at the same time they are talking about restraint they are on a real spending spree in this ·Province, they are borrowing and spending,and the problem is, Mr. Chairman, that there is nothing in between.

The y collect the revenue, they spend the taxpayers'money and they borrow and they spend but there is nothing in between; there is no activity, there is no development, no acti .on, there are no job creation programmes, there is nothing to create jobs, there is nothing to stimuLate the economy and that is the problem, Mr. Chairman.

The ·y are borrowing, tp.ey . are collecting record revenue, .record sales taxes liquor taxes and gasoline taxes from our people, they are spending that and in addition to that they are spending $-i7b ~ million a year that they are borrowing and they have nothing to show for it and that is what we are ·objecting to, Mr. Chairman. The total provincial public debt is close to $3.5 billion, $3,500 million,or around $6500 debt for every man, woman and child in this Province :." Now, Mr. Chairman, I had an opportunity to think about: this since the Minister of Finance (Dr.

Collins} provoked me the other day and I started to search for mines that this administration opened. How many mines, I said to myself,have this administration opened? In eLeven years, -I said, how many mines have they opened? You know, Mr. Chairman, I could not find one mine. liR. TULK: There ~ave been a few clothes lines on the other. side. MR. NEARY: There has been a few close but I could not find one mine that was opened under this 5508

May 26, 1983 Tape No. 2591 JV - 2 MR. NEARY: administration. Now, let me tell han. gentlemen how many mines were opened under a Liberal administration. There was the Little Bay copper mine, Tilt Cove mine, Baie Verte mine, 5509

Hay 26, 1983 Tape No. 2592 MJ ~ 1 MR. NEARY: Labrador City, Wabush, Daniel~s Harbour, Flat Bay, the talc mine down here in Hanuels and the Whale's Back mine, ~1r. Olainran, all these mines were opened under a Liberal administration. MR. TOBIN: Yes, the reason why (inaudible). MR. NEARY: Now, how can hon. gentlemen have the face to stand in this House and then compare the development, compare the reputation, compare the activity of one administration, the Liberal administration against the eleve;1 years of Toryism in this Province. A.nd then I started searching for ind~stries.

I said, 'How many new industries have this crowd created since they took over?' Now, the hon. the member for Trinity - Bay de Verde (Mr. Reid) looks at me over there and is waiting patiently for the answer. Well,~~- 01ai..rnan, I could not find one new industry. Then I started to look back over the Liberal years to see if there were any new. industries created. MR. CARTER: MR. NEARY: Do not remind us for God's sake. Oh, I will remind hon. gentlemen, The han. gentleman d~es not like to be reminded,~ know.

I'here was the cel'1ent ITtill out there in Corner Brook, there \''as the Newfoundland Hardwoods, a pressboard mill here in $t. John's, and then there was the mill in Stephenv:Ule, Now, Mr.· Chairman, the latest technique that they h.ave over there is to close down Liberal industries, open them up again and try to claim that they are their projects, ~. Olainran, there would be no paper mill in Stephenville today but for the Liberal Government. The mill at Stephenville, Mr.

Chairman, the Golden Eagle Refinery up in Holyrood, they have managed to close them down; the Come By Chance Oil Refinery, they managed to close that d~; there was a machine plant down at the Octagon, they . managed to close that down; Marystown Shipyards,that was ~nother 5510

May 26, 1983 Tape No. 2592 MJ .,.. 2 MR. NEARY: Liberal project, they tried to give that away, get rid of it; the Harmon Corporation formed in 1967 as an industrial centre; the first deep­ sea drilling for oil and gas on the 5511

May 26, 1983 Tape No. 2593 NM- 1 MR. NEARY: Grand Banks - two licences issued in 1969 by both the federal and provincial governments, and they have followed that policy ~ere ever since. The thermo generating plant in Kolyrood, Mr. Chairman - MR. BAIRD: The chocolate factory 1 the Birch plant. MR. NEli_RY: There was a shoe factory at Carbonear that is still functioning. I was over the other day to a sale th.ey had over at the Fieldian Gardens-. They have one every year, excellent product.

There~ias a brick industry started by the Liberals, a number of sawmills, Churchill Falls, the Newfoundland Power Commission, and I. could go and on, Mr. Chairman, and I could not find one industry that this government had created, or had been responsible for. And, Mr. Chairman, they have managed to supervise over a lot of closedowns in this Province, and I would say the .. people of Corner Brook are very concerned about what is happening in their city, in the second city • . .. -. - Now,what happe?ed back in 1971 when Bowater's threatened to close down number seven paper machine, what happened then?

Did the Premier of the day go off to England on a seal hunt expedition and bump into a Bowater's official that could have been the janitor as far as he was concerned? Did he do that? r-iR. TULK: No. MR. NEARY: Well,let us see what happened in 1971 when Bowater's threatened to close down number seven paper machine •. AN HON. MEMBER: Your time is up. MR. NEARY: No. Here is what happened: The governrnent. ··:oought an option on the mill and the government decided to purchase all Bowater timber in the Province and purchase all their property in this Province, Mr. Chairman. 5512

May 26, 1983 Tape no. 2593 MR. NEARY: And, Mr. Chairman, no more was heard of closing number seven machine for twelve years. NM- 2 DR. COLLINS: It is a good thing they did not pick up the option. MR. NEARY: No more was heard of closing down number seven paper machine in Corner Brook, and threatening the future of that mill once the government moved in and took an option, an offer to buy the whole Bowater operation in this Province. That was the end of that. Now what is this government doing? They are just laying back, Mr.

Chairman, laying back, they do not even have the plans~ They do not even know what the future of Bowater's is going to be. Now, Mr. Speaker, that is the di.£fe .rence between Liberalism and Toryism. That is the difference between a Liberal Administration and a Tory Administration, and that is the difference between the present Premier and Mr. Smallwood, who hon. gentlemen so often like to compare the gentleman to. The Liberal Administration believed in building and developing, Mr. Chairman, all tliis hon. crowd believe in is closing down, shutting down industries. 5513

May 26. 1983 Tape 2594 EC -1 MR. NEARY: They are presiding over the demise of the fishery in this Province, the pulp and p~per industry and the mining industry and they have not produced one new idea, one original idea or one new industry in eleven years. Now, who built the·transmission line across this Province to bring electricity, the power grid across this Province? Was that a Tory administration or was it a Liberal administration? MR. MARSHALL: ' MR. NEARY: I h ... ve no idea. Who built Bay d'Espoir? Does the- hon. gentleman have any idea who built that? MR. 'BAIRD: Who killed Cock Robin? MR. NEARY: Mr.

Chairman, who built the thermo generating plant in Holyrood? Mr. Chairman, I could go on and on and on. What about all the fish plants in the Province? Who built all the fish plants? And who is closing them down? And the hon. gentleman talks about revenue, expanding our revenue base, our tax base, so that we can get more revenue so that our deficit will not be as heavy and we will not have to borrow as much money. Mr. Chairman, if this administracion remains in power very much longer, taxes will increase further, they will be borrowing more money. DR. COLLINS: It is all in your.mind.

MR.· CHAIRMAN (Aylward): Order, please! MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, this may be a crude term, but the government seem constipated, the whole system. is constipated. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! DR. COLLINS: The hon. member's time has elapsed. Shall the resolution carry? Mr. Chairman. 5514

May 26, 1983 MR. CHAIRMAN (Aylward) : DR. COLLINS: Tape 2594 EC - 2 The hon. the Minister of Finance. Mr. Chairman, I do not know if we will go into it a lot but I just want to make this comment. I am glad Mr. Smallwood did not have his option on Bowaters picked up. What do you think he would have done with it? rte probably would have put either John Doyle in charge of it or perhaps if not John Doyle, John Shaheen or perhaps Al Vardy or someone like that and you know what would have happened with Bowaters after that. A figure, Mr.

Chairman, that I think is interesting to look at: Since the Peckford administration carne in, personal income in this Province has increased at a compounded annual rate of 11.5 per cent so there must be some activity going on in the Province. The Gross Domestic Product in the Province has increa~ed by 10 per cent compounded annually. Now, compare that with what the public sector debt has increased: as I mentioned, 11.5 per cent for personal income, 10 per cent by GDP; our to.tal public sector debt has increased by 7.2 per cent compounded, considerably less than the other indices.

Another interesting figure, ~.Chairman - I dug it out just out of interest - in the six year period from 1965 until the last Liberal administra­ tion gave up the ghost in 1971, 5515

May 26, 1983 Tape No. 2595 SD - 1 DR. COLLINS: in that six ye~r period the annual compounded growth in our public sector debt was 21 per cent, over.that six year period a 21 per cent annual growth in the public sector debt. Now compare, Mr. Chairman, that with the figure for the total public sector debt in the four years since this administration has been in power. It has been 7.2 per cent in the four years this administration has been in power compared with the last six years of the Smallwood regime,when the public sector debt increased by 21 per cent compounded annually.

So I think that we have to be careful that even we ourselves do not become brain­ washed by all this talk that eminates from the Opposition that, you know, the public sector debt is going out of control in this Province and so on. As a matter of fact, the public sector debt is being managed now immeasurably more sensibly and immeasurably more carefully than was done in the Smallwood days and, of course, the financial indices and the opinion of the financial world sort of backs that up. MR. CHAIRMAN (Aylward) : MR. NEARY: The han. Leader of the Opposition. Mr.

Chairman, I am sure that the scholars, the intellects, the professors of logic at universities throughout the world would love for me to s·end them Hansard, the verbatim account of the remarks just given,and given the day before yesterday by the han. Minister of Finance (_Dr. CollinsJ_. Mr. Chairman, they would have a ball with the han. gentleman's statements. They may end up jumping out the windows, committing suicide trying to figure out what it is that the han. gentleman is saying. The fact of the matter is, Mr.

Chairman, the only yard- stick that you can use to judge whether your Province is. progressing or deteriorating is the Gross Provincial product. That is it, Mr. Chairman, it is just as simple as· that. The 5516

May 26, 1983 Tape No. 2595 SD - 2 MR. NEARY: Gross Provincial Product last year in this Province was minus, it was minus one, I believe, minus one point something. DR. COLLINS: (inaudible) • MR. NEARY: We are listening to something It was minus point four actually. Minus four. I thought it was minus one point something, minus four. DR. COLLINS: The -national one was minus six. MR. NEARY: The Gross Provincial Product, Mr. Chairman, which is the total value of all the goods and services produced in this Province was a minus four last year. In order to maintain the status quo - DR.

COLLINS: It was minus six in Ottawa. MR. NEARY: - in order to maintain services at their present level the Gross Provincial Product or the total value of all the goods -and services produced in the Province has -to be around 8 per cent or 10 per cent increase every year. There has to be an increase every year of 8 per cent to 10 per cent. And, yet, last year we had a minus point four and this year, Mr. Chairman, we will have another minus I will predict, we will have zero increase in our Gross -Provincial Product. Mr. Chairman, here we are, here it is May 26th, no sign of any plans-, 5517

May 26, 1983 Tape 2596 PK - 1 MR. NEARY: or recommendations,or ideas or anything put on the table worthwhile to debate, to stimulate the economy, to create jobs, to overcome the crisis in the fisheries, to help Corner Brook, to help Buchans, to help all of the other communities on the misery list in this Province, Mr. Chairman. No plans to deal with any of these matters - MR. TULK: An Acting Premier who wants to go South. MR. NEARY: - just press on, try to shut her down as quickly as you can. That is why the hon. President of the Council (Mr.

Marshall), the Government House Leader, has been so testy in the last few days and has been sitting in his seat sulking and not saying anything, and giving black looks to his own members who get up to speak, Mr. Chairman. The hon. gentleman is hopin·:r 'that we will run out of ste~m over here. MR. TULK: And when he says he wants to go he is going and that is it. MR. NEARY: He is going to Flordia, yes. He has his reservations booked, and he may be going. But, Mr.

Chairman, all we hear from this crowd, the only kind of statement we hear from the government are statements like we heard from the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan). MR. TULK: MR. NEARY: May 6, outside The new word now is 'study'. The Minister of Fisheries on this hon. House,told the whole world that Fishery Products- 'In ten days', he said, 'Fishery Products will be bankrupt'. Now, Mr. Chairman, if somebody on this side of the House made that statement,or some backbencher on the government side made it, you would say , Well they are fishing for information, they are trying to find out what is going on.

Because we are not supposed to be in the know. So you could forgi•.re myself or some member on this side or some government backbencher for making a statement about Fishery Products going bankrupt. But for a: minister, Mr. Chairman, a man who is supposed ·to be protecting the biggest Newfoundland fish company,pulling 5518

May 26, 1983 Tape 2596 PK - 2 MR. NEARY: the carpet out, starting a run of creditors against Fishery Products, almost driving Fis hery Products into bankruptcy by making these irresponsible statements­ oeuld the hon . gentleman tell ·us whether the administration condones that kind of statement by thE;! Minister of Fisheries (Mr . Morgan) - MR. LUSH: to tell us. MR. NEARY: And he will not get to his feet - who publicly stated that within ten days - and the ten days have been up, it is twenty days now, Mr .

Chairman, twenty days · have gon e by and Fishery Products are still afloat, and we are told in their financial statements that they made $100,000 profit in the first quarter . And according to the financial statements of the company,the Canadian Development Corporation, they will make money this year instead of losing money . And yet 5519

May 26, 1983 Tape No. 2597 MJ - 1 MR. NEARY: \oJe N'ere told by the ~~ inister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) who is supposed to be furthering the interests of the fishermen and the employees of these companies, we were told by the Minister of Fisheries that within ten days Fishery Products would be bankrupt. The hon. gentleman was threatened with a libel suit by the compan~we do not whether that has materialized or not,but we have not heard one word uttered by the hon. gentleman since. Now, that is what you get from that administration, Mr. Chairman.

And you also get,of course, sexist jokes and racist jokes from the administration, condoned by the Premier and the hon. gentleman, Mr. Chairman. And I have here in front of me a letter that I received from - DR. COLLINS: with the Loan Bill? MR. NEARY: Does that have anything to do Yes, it has all to do with the Loan Bill because it has to do with generating new dollars in this Province,and it has to do with the policy of the administration as far as development is concerned. I had a letter yesterday from Mr. I. H. Langlands, Mr. Langlands, the Vice-President of the Fishery _Council of Canada,and, Mr.

Chairman, Mr. Langlands thanked me for writing a letter of apology that he is going to send to 600 delegates throughout the world who attended the conference here,but before he does that,he said, 'I am sending your letter to the President of the Fishery Council, Mr. Ron Bulmer, Suite 603, 77 Medcalfe Street, Ottawa, Ontario, with a suggestion that he send a copy to each of the registered members who attended the Monday evening event. Before Mr. Langlands does this, he said, 'I think that the President should contact your Premier, the hon. Brian Peckford and/or the minister' - 5520

May 26, 1983 Tape No. 2597 MJ "" 2 MR. NEARY: referring to the Minister of Fisheries - 'the hon. James Morgan, to give either or both the opportunity of also apologizing.' Now, Mr, Chairman, this Province is likely to stand to lose substantially as a result of irresponsible statements made about Fishery Products. ~he hon. gentle~an as a result of these statements •started a run of creditors on Fishery Products. I am told the next day the company almost went under. We were told by the minister that t~ey had ten days before they were going to go into ba,nk;ruptc;:y.

This is twenty days later and they are still afloat. NOW ·, does the administration condone that kind of statement made by the I-iinister of Fisheries? And will the a~inistration, in order to remedy and cure this distasteful beh.av:i,oul;' of the Minister of Fisheries down at the new hotel 1when t~ey had that conference, will somebody please persuade t~e Premier to write a letter that can be sent with mine to these 600 del~gates throughout the world?

This is t~e last chance, the last opportunity for the Premier to redeem himself,or is the Premier going to continue to condone and defend the wild, irresponsible statements made by the present Minister of Fisheries? 5521

May 26, 1983 Tape No. 2598 NM- 1 MR. NEARY: Now, Mr. Chairman, the hen. gentleman may be anxious to get this bill passed and get the Rouse closed,but we will stay here until Regatta Day, Mr. ~' in order to try to shame the administration into producing some plans to stimulate the Newfoundland economy and to tell us what they intend to do to get people back to work. Mr • . Cbainnan, just as a comparison,the good old Liberal days compared to the Tory days. Mr. ·~, back in 1949 and 1950, after we became a Province of Canada, we had no university, we now have a university thanks to the Liberal Government.

We had no road across this Province - MR. CHAIRMAN "(Aylward) : member's time has elapsed. Order, please! The hen. The hen. member for Fogo. MR. TULK: Mr. Chairman, a few minutes ago the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) in replying to some questions from the member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) said he did not want to be, he pointed out, or he in some way inferred that he did not want to be reminded of the increasing public debt and that perhaps we should not be reminding him of it either. Mr.

Chairman, I say to him that neither .should he because, I suppose like most of the people on that side of the Rouse, not all of them, but I suppose like most of the people on that side of the House he is supporting that fellow who is trying to become the Leader of the Tory Party and hoping to become the Prime Minister of the country, and I speak of none other than Bully Boy Crosbie. SOME liON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! 5522

May 26, 1983 Tape No. 2598 NM - 2 MR. TULK: He sho~ld not, Mr. Chairman, want to be reminded;because I faintly remember from 1969 to 1971 hearing that hon. gentleman, the man he admires so much, the man the gentleman admires so much on that side, I think I remember hearing that gentleman standing up in this House bellowing forth his poison against the former Liberal Administration in this Province, of how the Liberal Administration, the government of the day, was bankrupting the Province. We do not need any more of that logic because, Mr. Chairma~ as the Leader of the Opposition (Mr.

Neary) was saying a few minutes ago, the logic of the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) belongs in archaeology. MR. NEARY: It is mind · boggling. MR. TULK: It is mind boggling. It would do for some ancient historian or some archaeologist! something to study, how he can manage to come up with the figures that he comes up with. Mr. Chairman, there is absolutely no logic - MR. CHAIRMAN (Aylward): Order, please .! I interrupt the hon. member for a second. It being five o'clock on Thursday I have to inform the Kouse that there are no questions for the Late Show. The hon. member for Fogo. MR. TULK: Mr.

Speaker, it is not suprising there ·,_are no questionsr You could ask all the questions you want in this liouse and get no answers, so why ask them? MR. BAIRD: Try and try again . MR. TULK: The only thing that the member for Humber West (Mr. Baird) tries for is from somebody else's seat or in some back space in the seat. As I was saying, Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Finance should not want to be reminded of the state of the public debt in thi .s Province because 5523

May 26, 1983 Tape No. 2599 JV- 1 MR. TULK: it was his favourite man in Ottawa today, I suppose who was bellowing forth in this House in 1969 how the Liberal Government was going to bankrupt the Province; those were his words;'we are bankrupt. We cannot raise any more taxes, we cannot generate any more funds because we are practically bankrupt' he said. At that time, Mr. Chairman, as we have said before in this House, I think the public debt was around $750 million. We were bankrupt in the ancient world of the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins).

He said, we cannot raise another cent, we do not have a cent to do anything, Smallwood is going to put us on the rocks, Mr. Chairman, $750 million. We have got today a public debt - MR. HOUSE: (Inaudible) . MR. TULK: The Minister of Health (Mr. House) should attend to the hospitals and keep them open. He does not know anything about health let alone finance so he should be quiet. He has made a mess of that, Mr. Chairman - MR CHAI}U1AN (Aylward) : Order, please! MR. TULK: now he is going to get into Finance. It is in bad enough condition with what we have got up there do not you move up.

Do not try to get that job. as well, handle the one you have. Mr. Chairm~, $750 million in 1972 - what have we got today? $3.5 billion - and Bully Boy Crosbie was the man who predicted gloom and doom in this Province. Mr . Chairman, the Minister of Finance goes on to say that we need an expanded tax base. Well, that is the one true statement that he has made, that we 5524

May 26, 1983 Tape No . 2599 JV - 2 MR. TULK: do need an expanded tax base in this Province. Because I am absolutely sure that the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) this FaJ.l is going to be looking around for something else to tax and, Mr. Chairman, I doubt that he can find anything else. AN HON . MEMBER: The member for St . John's North (Mr. Carter) has a very novel idea but I would not mention it in the House. MR. TULK: What was that? No, you cannot mention anything the member for St . John 's North said anyway. 5525

May 26, 1983 Tape 2600 EC - 1 MR. TULK: Mr.Chairman, he is going again this Fall to be looking for something else to tax and he does need an expanded tax base, he does need other things that he can tax, . there is no joke about that. But let me ask him how he expects to get that expanded tax base that he is looking for? As the han. the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) pointed out, and rightly so, there has not been one new development take place in this Province since this government took office.

And we are not talking about this government, we are talking about the government of the former Premier of this Province and of the present administration; there has not been one industry developed in this Province, not one new industry opened up. So how does he plan on getting that tax base? MR. BAIRD: Why do you not write your speech and then read it out? MR. TULK: At least, Mr. Chairman, it is not too much trouble for me to write it and then read it and I invite the member for Humber Hest (Hr. Baird) to do the same, rather than be like a crackie from his seat. MR. BAIRD: my writing. MR. TULK: I do n'ot dro