Manitoba Hansard — 7 May 1997 (Sitting 41, 36th Legislature, 3rd Session)

36-3-41

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Third Session - Thirty-Sixth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable Louise M. Dacquay Speaker Vol. XLVII No. 41-1:30 p.m., Wednesday, May 7, 1997

Member ASHTON, Steve BARRETT, Becky CERILLI, Marianne CHOMIAK, Dave CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. DACQUA Y, Louise, Hon. DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary DOWNEY, James, Hon. DRIEDGER, Albert DYCK, Peter ENNS, Harry, Hon. ERNST, Jim EVANS, Clif EVANS, Leonard S. FILMON, Gary, Hon. FINDLAY, Glen, Hon. FRIESEN, Jean GAUDRY, Neil GILLESHAMMER, Harold, Hon. HELWER, Edward HICKES, George JENNISSEN, Gerard KOWALSKI, Gary LAMOUREUX, Kevin LATHLIN, Oscar LAURENDEAU, Marcel MACKINTOSH, Gord MALOWA Y, Jim MARTINDALE, Doug McALPINE, Gerry McCRAE, James, Hon. McGIFFORD, Diane MciNTOSH, Linda, Hon.

MIHYCHUK, MaryAnn MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. NEWMAN, David, Hon. PENNER, Jack PITURA, Frank, Hon. PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. RADCLIFFE, Mike, Hon. REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack, Hon. RENDER, Shirley ROBINSON, Eric ROCAN, Denis SALE, Tim SANTOS, Conrad STEFANSON, Eric, Hon. STRUTHERS, Stan SVEINSON, Ben TOEWS, Vic, Hon. TWEED, Mervin VODREY, Rosemary, Hon. WOWCHUK, Rosann Vacant MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Sixth Legislature Constituency Thompson Wellington Radisson Kildonan Ste.

Rose Seine River Roblin-Russell Selkirk Concordia Arthur-Virden Steinbach Pembina Lakeside Charleswood Interlake Brandon East Tuxedo Springfield Wolseley St. Boniface Minnedosa Gimli Point Douglas Flin Flon The Maples Inkster The Pas St. Norbert St. Johns Elmwood Burrows Sturgeon Creek Brandon West Osborne Assiniboia St. James River East Riel Emerson Morris Lac du Bonnet River Heights Transcona Niakwa St. Vital Rupertsland Gladstone Crescentwood Broadway Kirk:field Park: Dauphin La Verendrye Rossmere Turtle Mountain Fort Garry Swan River Portage Ia Prairie Political Afrlliation N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C.

P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. Lib. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. Lib. Lib. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P.

2353 LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Wednesday, May 7, 1997 The House met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES Committee of Supply Mr. Gerry McAlpine (Acting Chairperson of the Committee of Supply): Madam Speaker, the Committee of Supply has adopted certain resolutions, directs me to report the same and asks leave to sit again. I move, seconded by the honourable member for St. Vital (Mrs. Render), that the report of the committee be received. Motion agreed to. MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS AND TABLING OF REPORTS Flood Conditions Update Hon.

Glen Cummings (Minister of Natural Resources): Madam Speaker, my report will be brief, but I must point out that this flood event is not over. There are still a lot of properties at risk behind the various dikes, both permanent and temporary, that are holding back the Red River. We have seen the levels in the Red fall a quarter of a foot between Emerson and Ste. Agathe in the past 24 hours, half a foot at St. Adolphe and three-quarters of a foot at the floodway inlet. Levels are being maintained steady in the city of Winnipeg due to the floodway gates being lowered.

At Selkirk the river fell about a quarter of a foot. Environment Canada, however, indicates that there are 15 to 25 millimetres of rain that may have fallen in the Red River Valley from Emerson to just south of Winnipeg. There is a chance of additional showers tonight when a cold front passes through. The rain will slow down the rate of decline in certain areas of the river levels but is not expected to produce any rises unless many areas in the valley receive in excess of35 millimetres or more. More importantly, Madam Speaker, strong northerly winds are expected to develop late tonight and continue on Thursday.

Serious wave action is expected in open areas of the Red River flood plain. Levels in the Winnipeg area will begin to decline slowly in the next few days, and we hope to have a drop close to one foot by late on Saturday. The Grande Pointe area fell three-quarters of a foot since yesterday. Today's reading, however, was affected by wind, but we believe levels will continue to fall gradually. Near Netley Creek, the levels have fallen slightly, but they could see an expected rise of a foot or more due to strong northerly winds tomorrow.

We must put all of our help and understanding behind those who are manning the dikes and express our appreciation for all of the work that is being done by officials and volunteers alike. Manitoba Emergency Manag ement Organization Update Hon. Frank Pitura (Minister of Government Services): Madam Speaker, in following my colleague the Minister of Natural Resources' statement, a brief update on the Manitoba Emergency Management Organization.

Right now MEMO is in a transitional stage, moving away from a flood mitigation works and maintenance stage to operations primarily involved with the re-entry and recovery process for all those that are affected by this disaster. They are working very hard on re-entry. Re-entry, I think, is a very vital process that has to take place, and we would like to see it expedited as quickly and efficiently as possible. So, to this end, the committee looking after re-entry has sent a guideline

2354 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 7, 19 97 for all residents affected by the flooding called After Flooding, and this is going to be distributed through municipal offices and through Canada Post at no cost. It has also been talked about in recent days about the Roseau First Nations being able to re-enter their community.

Now, in respect to the damage to the road which would give them access to their community, the kind of damage that was done to the road, the repair may not be as easily put into place as was first thought, so this could take a number of days before actual re entry can take place, although the community is dry and ready. * (1 335) There is also a co-ordination team that has been set up that will work along with the volunteer agencies with respect to the disposition of financial donations, and all municipal authorities will be consulted in all of these decisions by that committee as well as getting their input.

With respect to the armed forces, the joint forces operation of the army, navy, air force and reserves, the numbers of military personnel deployed in support of flood operations will be reduced by approximately 1, 200 persons today or tomorrow, and that is to enable these 1, 200 persons to-they are set to be deployed on another assignment, and so it gives them some time at home and also for additional training.

However, the personnel that are here are still deployed and continue to assist in dike maintenance and surveillance, security of the flooded areas and as well in rescue-team operations as they were called upon. In the area of the environment, the Department of Environment is now into discussion with municipal authorities on the issue of their disposal sites that may have been contaminated by flood waters and how to bring these sites back. The question of how to dispose of the sandbags is also being addressed with the municipal authorities so that the sandbags can be disposed of in an orderly fashion.

In the Department of Agriculture, the department is distributing information on stress to staff and farmers as and where required. The Manitoba Emergency Management Organization is continuing to provide 24- hour-a-day, seven-day-a-week service. That is my report, Madam Speaker. Mr. Stan Struthers (Dauphin): I thank the ministers for making their statements to the House again today. Let us all hope that the wind and the rain do not do a lot of damage to the dikes that are placed in position to protect homes in the city today.

I think what we need to do though is make sure that we are absolutely vigilant in keeping our eye on what happens north of the city of Winnipeg from here on in. It is good news to hear that the levels are receding slightly. That is a good sign.

Our hopes now are that the water that is moving north does not do a whole lot of damage, but I think we need to be absolutely vigilant in keeping an eye on that water flow that will be heading north into Lake Winnipeg and then spilling out from the lake in the rivers that flow from Lake Winnipeg, because they will have an effect on people living on those rivers in those communities in the northern part of our province. I too, just briefly, in conclusion, want to congratulate and thank those who are staffing the dikes today as we speak, throughout the night.

I think a big thank you needs to go out to those folks who are taking the time to staff the dikes and make sure that there are no breaches and finding the leaks before they become major events in different parts of our communities. Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. Hon. James McCrae (Minister charged with the admini stration of The Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation Act): Madam Speaker, I am tabling the 19 96 Annual Report for Manitoba Public Insurance. INTRODUCTION OF BILLS Bill 29- The Education Admini stration Amendment Act Hon.

James McCrae (Minister of Environmen t): Madam Speaker, on behalf of the honourable Minister of Education and Training (Mrs. Mcintosh), I move, seconded by the honourable Minister of Family

May 7, 1997 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2355 Services (Mrs. Mitchelson), that leave be given to introduce Bill 29, The Education Administration Amendment Act (Loi modifiant la

Loi sur !'administration scolaire), and that the same be now received and read a first time. Motion agreed to. *

(1340) Bill 30-- The Farm Practices Protection Amendment Act Hon. Harry Enos (Minister of Agriculture): Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Environment (Mr. McCrae), that leave be given to introduce Bill 30, The Farm Practices Protection Amendment Act (Loi modifiant la

Loi sur la protection des pratiques agricoles), and that the same be now received and read a first time. His Honour the Lieutenant Governor, having been advised of the contents of this bill, recommends it to the House. As well, I would like to table the message of His Honour. Motion agreed to. Bili31-The Livestock and Livestock Pr oducts and Consequential Amendme nts Act Hon. Harry Enos (Minister of Agriculture): Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Highways and Transportation (Mr.

Findlay), that leave be given to introduce Bill 31, The Livestock and Livestock Products and Consequential Amendments Act (Loi sur les animaux de ferme et leurs produits et modifications correlatives), and that the same be now received and read a first time. His Honour the Lieutenant Governor, having been advised of the contents of this bill, recommends it to the House. Again, I table His Honour's message. Motion agreed to. Bili 32-The Workplace Safety and Health Amendment Act

(2) Hon. Harold Gilleshammer (Minister of Labour): I move, seconded by the honourable Minister of Justice (Mr. Toews), that leave be given to introduce Bill 32, The Workplace Safety and Health Amendment Act (2) (Loi no 2 modifiant la

Loi sur la securite et !'hygiene du travail), and that the same be now received and read a first time. Motion agreed to. Speaker's Statement Madam Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, I would like to share two letters and two resolutions that I have received from neighbouring provinces, with all members of the House. Dear Madam Speaker. On Thursday, April 24, 1997, members of the Nova Scotia Legislative Assembly agreed to send a message to the people of Manitoba who have been experiencing the devastation caused by the flooding of the Red River. Enclosed is a copy of the resolution brought forward by Mrs.

Lila O'Connor. Sincerely, the Honourable Wayne Gaudet, Speaker. This is from the Nova Scotia House of Assembly.

WHEREAS people who live along the banks of the Red River in the province of Manitoba have to evacuate their homes because of flooding; and

WHEREAS in July 1996 several members of this House had the opportunity to attend the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association Conference in Winnipeg; and

WHEREAS while attending that conference the members of this House visited many of the areas that are presently being evacuated, meeting many of the fine people who live there; THEREFORE

BE IT RESOLVED that all members of this House extend to the people who live along the shores of the Red River their expression of concern and caring during a most difficult time. The motion was unanimously carried. *

(1345) Additionally, I am in receipt of a letter from the Honourable Lloyd Snow, Speaker of the House of

2356 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 7, 1997 Assembly of Newfoundland and Labrador: On Thursday, May 1, 1997, the Newfoundland House of Assembly gave unanimous consent to a resolution acknowledging the difficulties presently encountered by the people of your province who live along the banks of the Red River. Through the resolution, members of the House of Assembly wish to convey to the people of Manitoba their concern for the challenges that your citizens are facing. We want them to know that our prayers and thoughts are with them.

We trust that the efforts that have been made in the last few weeks to protect lives and property will be sufficient and that, as the flood reaches its crest, the dikes will hold. This resolution was also passed unanimously. This is to certify that the following resolution was approved and adopted by the honourable House of Assembly of the Province ofNewfoundland on the 1st day of May, 1997:

WHEREAS the people of Manitoba who live in the Red River Valley are facing a monumental challenge brought on by natural causes; and

WHEREAS all Canadians share in the struggle of the people of Manitoba· and of the Premier and government, the mayors and municipal councils, relief organizations, water control management authorities and all other emergency teams to minimize the life threatening challenges and the property damages thrust upon them by the unusually high levels of the spring runoff in the flood ravaged areas of southern Manitoba; THEREFORE

BE IT RESOLVED that the House of Assembly ofNewfoundland and Labrador express our concern and, as members of the Canadian family, want them to know of our prayers, thoughts and best wishes as they struggle to control the harsh realities that nature has unleashed. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Flooding Water Levels-Gr ande Pointe Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Madam Speaker, my question is to the First Minister. On Monday I asked the Premier some questions dealing with the information we had received from the people of the Grande Pointe area and relatives of the people from Grande Pointe.

Consistently throughout the discussions we had, the people were saying to us that all along they were given forecasts that would indicate that they would not receive the amount of water that they eventually received on Friday.

Again last night, in a town hall meeting for the people of Ritchot, people were speaking at that meeting, and people were raising the fact that they were assured by the Department of Natural Resources and the Water Services branch and the people working for the provincial government that the water levels would not be as high as eventually happened in the Friday flooding that took place with many of the homes in the Grande Pointe area.

They had been very concerned when they were raising it with us, they were very concerned at the meeting last night and I would like to ask the Premier: What happened to the forecasts for the Grande Pointe area? It is something I asked him on Monday. What has been the evaluation of the forecasting that has been conducted at Grande Pointe, and why were we wrong, regrettably, in that situation? Ron.

Glen Cummings (Min ister of Natural Resources): Madam Speaker, the concern and the angst of the people who were living in Grande Pointe, we certainly can feel for their problems and want to do everything we can to make sure that they know that we are examining and reviewing what may have caused the water levels that they saw. I want to put it clearly on the record that almost every forecast that the department brought forward has proven to be right on the-almost within the inch of where the predicted levels were.

That does not help the people in Grande Pointe when they look out the window or look back at their properties. The fact is, when we saw phenomena in the movement of water in the valley on the west side-and let me use the west side of the valley as an example-where there were observations of water running north over a road and then going east over the next road and then going north and then going east and then turning around and going south again depending on the elevations of the road, that has caused some very unusual patterns of water when we have seen such an

May 7, 1997 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2357 enonnous amount of water coming through the valley that has given some unpredictability to the direction that water would flow. Mr. Doer: People again were asking-and they had been phoning the Water Resources branch and the Water Services branch and the provincial government, and they felt that these assurances from their department really put back, if not totally delayed, any preparation when they were told not to worry about the water levels in tenns of the predicted crest in that area. Of course, I have quoted the projections from the press releases previously on Monday in this Chamber. *

(1350) Department of Natural Resources Staffing-Impact on Flood Forecasting Mr. Gary Doer (Leader ofthe Opposition): I would like to ask the minister: What has been the impact of the reduction of some 40 percent in the staff in the department of Water Resources? What has been the impact on forecasts and the ability to analyze water flow? At the meeting last night people talked about a 6-foot culvert that was not identified. The staff of the minister also said that they were not aware of that situation.

What has been the impact of government cutbacks on forecasting capacity for water flow in the province of Manitoba? Hon. Glen Cummings (Minis ter of Natural Resources): The ability of the department to assemble and forecast on the infonnation that they have available has continued at the same high level that we have always expected, but remember, in the event that we are facing right now and we are still facing, this is a flood event that is larger than anything that has been in recent recorded documentation.

As you get to the outside edges of what is now Lake Morris, the direction of flow and the levels to the outside edges that may redirect some water is very difficult to model. The direction that the department has always provided to individuals is that this is the level and please build with an additional 2 feet of freeboard. None of that can entirely preclude the possibility-and we saw two events where this occurre d-of the water being redirected by a road that had been built up, by a road that can become breached.

In fact, again to use the other side of the lake as an example, the water today has reached the Brunkild dike in all parts of the dike, and it had been sitting with four feet of a head two and a half miles or two miles south of that dike. That is an indication of the enonnity of what they are dealing with. Mr. Doer: We will continue to pursue the issue of cutbacks of staff and its impact on forecasts when we hear more definitive answers of what happened in tenns of the Grande Pointe situation and other situations in the province. Disaster Assistance Deductible Mr.

Gary Doer (Leader ofthe Opposition): I would like to ask the First Minister-he mentioned yesterday that no province in Canada ha4_ no deductible in tenns of the compensation package, and we cited the Province of Alberta, which had, in our infonnation, dropped the deductible from the 20 percent. We also cited Quebec which he answered yesterday in the Chamber. Last night at the meeting his own member of the Legislature the member for La Verendrye (Mr. Sveinson) said he did not know what the government was going to do with the 20 percent deductible.

Further to that, the federal member of Parliament said that they were willing to compensate and look at a reduction of the 20 percent deductible. Has the Premier got an update on the analysis of Alberta, and what definitive answers can they give to the people who attended a town hall meeting last night in Ritchot in tenns of not knowing what the status of that would be? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Indeed the member for La Verendrye has been out there working with his constituents to fight the flood every day now for a period of a couple of weeks.

My recollection of the response I gave yesterday was specific to the question about Quebec. I do not believe that I said that no province did not have a deductible, because I know from the infonnation I had in front of me yesterday that it clearly says that Newfoundland has no deductible and Alberta has no deductible in their disaster financial assistance.

2358 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 7, 1997 Getting back to the question of the member opposite, it has certainly been apparent, during all of the matters that we have had to encounter and all of the decisions that we as a government have had to take, that we are facing unprecedented circumstances, that we are facing unprecedented times. On the other hand, with respect to the way in which we have attempted to treat people, we have always indicated that we want to do what is reasonable and fair under the circumstances.

Those kinds of principles have been applied in many disasters, even since we have been in office-in 1989 when we had unprecedented forest fires in northern Manitoba; 1995, when we had one of the largest flooding circumstances certainly this century on the Assiniboine River; last year when we had some very large flooding circumstances on the Red River.

It will tum out to be the fourth largest flood this century as it was in 1996. * (1 355) In every case-and we have made some decisions along the way, going from $30,000 maximum to $100,000 maximum in recognition of what is fair, reasonable and meets the test of a broadly applicable assessment. We certainly are looking at all of these elements with respect to this particular disaster. We want to acknowledge certainly the burden that people are bearing, the trauma that they have faced and will continue to face.

But, in so doing, we also want to create circumstances that would be applicable in any other circumstance that we faced in the future and not just do this in recognition of a federal election that is ongoing, not just do it in recognition of this being greater than any other circumstance that we have faced. So I will say to him that all of the issues that he has raised will not just be considered by us, as a government, but we will take advice, his advice, the advice of the member for Crescentwood (Mr. Sale) and others who have urged us to take a different view of this.

We will take the advice of the people who have put together a financial support package and knowing that already those who have looked at these funds that have been raised for flood relief in Manitoba, that certainly many of them have indicated that they are prepared to look at the circumstances of those who might face a deductible and not be able to manage that.

So the need as well as the circumstances of individuals can be taken care of, we believe, by an appeal mechanism that exists in our disaster financial assistance program as well as by the funds that are being collected for special flood relief and administered by a nonpartisan group that is outside of government.

In addition to all of those things, of course, there will also be the obvious backstop that always exists, and that is the government itself taking a look at circumstances and again addressing whether or not what policies are in place, what circumstances are in place are fair and equitable and reasonable in the circumstances, and we will be judged on that by people right across this province, I am sure. Mr. Doer: New question to the First Minister: I asked yesterday for the government to look at the policy and the changes in the policy that have resulted in Alberta.

The Premier looked at the policies that had changed in Quebec. We recognize some other provinces have not dropped the deductible. I would like to further ask in terms of this issue-and I recognize some money towards that deductible could be utilized from the great support we have had from other people in other provinces, and I recognize also that we have to take a long-term view of this situation, notwithstanding the federal situation.

Madam Speaker, I would like to ask the Premier: Would he look at the policy of the deductible with the great losses due to this flood disaster and look at it also in light of the fact that not all items are covered by the existing policy? Secondly-and we support the fact that only the depreciated value of items is covered. We are not suggesting the government change that, but that obviously also mitigates against the great disaster that people have. Will he look at the deductible policy in light of those other factors that are part of the present policy that is circulated by the government? Mr.

Filmon: We will take all of those things into account, as the Leader of the Opposition has recommended. We also will take into account the fact that people do not pay any premiums for this kind of coverage. It is given basically without having had to pay premiums, which other people would have had to do in order to get this kind of coverage, and also that insurance normally does carry a deductible. So we will have to take all of those circumstances into account and

May 7, 1997 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2359 try and ensure that at the end of the day we have a balanced and fair approach. * (1 400) Mr. Tim Sale (Crescentwood): Madam Speaker, I think we welcome the new flexibility being shown by the First Minister opposite. Disaster Assistance Deductible Mr. Tim Sale (Crescentwood): The municipalities serving areas like Ste. Agathe, Grande Pointe, Aubigny and other areas did not have the opportunity, not because of any particular failure but because of the reasons that the Minister of Natural Resources (Mr.

Cummings) has pointed out, that simply the unpredictability of this flood was such that preparation was not always undertaken in areas that were subsequently flooded, not because people did not want to prepare but because events overtook them-they, therefore, were not able to mitigate damages to their own municipal infrastructures. They are faced, therefore, with enormous costs in relation to their ability to pay. What steps is the province now prepared to take to deal with the ability-to-pay principle in regard to municipalities, particularly the ones most hard hit in the areas that I have mentioned? Hon.

Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, I think the first thing we have to recognize is that we do not have any quantifiable bills at the moment. We do not have any bills submitted. We do not have any real-we have ballparks, we have estimates, but that may not be accurate. I do not think that you set firm policy change based on speculation, and that is what we are dealing with at the moment. Just as we could have speculated about worst-case scenarios for Winnipeg, we would have been wrong to set policy based on that. We would have been wrong to take actions other than back-up systems in place.

So I do not think that now is the time for us to be dealing with those circumstances until we have much more definitive information at our disposal. Mr.

Sale: Will the Premier, who must know by now that some municipalities do in fact know that even their flood-prevention costs have greatly exceeded their annual budget in revenue terms-those bills are already known-will he not simply reinstate the flexible provision found in the disaster relief guidelines, Disaster Assistance Board guidelines which were in place until January of 1997, the guidelines that were in place through all of the previous incidents which made it possible, depending on the good judgment and necessity of the situation, to waive or reduce or amend the deductible or the co-payment levels of municipalities, businesses or individuals?

Simply restore the previous policy. Mr. Filmon: Madam Speaker, I have indicated that we have a lot of thinking to do, we have a lot of evaluation to do and we will take the time necessary to get all the information that should be put on the table when we make those judgments. Mr.

Sale: Madam Speaker, will the Minister of Northern Affairs confirm that it is the policy of the federal government to waive deductibles in the case of the municipal and local authorities under federal jurisdiction and that they did so in 1989, 1993 and 1996 in regard to lands, roads, infrastructure located in lands under the responsibility of the federal government? Hon. David Newman (Minister ofNorthern Affairs): I do not have the answer to that question, but I will take that as notice and get the answer for my friend. Disaster Assistance Food Allowance Ms.

Marianne Cerilli (Radisson): Madam Speaker, according to the government's news bulletin as of Sunday, May 4, more than 17,000 Manitobans evacuated from their homes have had to rely on assistance for food and lodging through Emergency Measures Organization. Of course, many of these Manitobans have not been able to work or have lost their access to their regular income while being forced out of their homes.

I want to ask the minister responsible for Emergency Measures: What has been the rate of allowance for food per day for people who have had either to have their own accommodations arranged or have had to have accommodations arranged through Emergency Measures and the Red Cross?

2360 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 7, 1997 Hon.

Frank Pitura (Minister of Government Services): Madam Speaker, those people that had to evacuate their premises and consequently move into one of the reception centres, either in rural Manitoba or in Winnipeg, once they registered with the emergency social services group with regard to the accommodation that they had, they were allowed to have-and I do not have the numbers in front of me, so I hope the member will forgive me ifl am out a dollar or two, but I believe it is around the $20 to $22 per diem for those people that were lodged in a hotel setting and had to use a restaurant facility for food.

I believe those families that had accommodation within an apartment block-type setting where they could cook their own meals were allowed $7.40 a day, I believe, for groceries per person in the family. Shelter Allowance Ms. Marianne Cerilli (Radisson): I would appreciate it if the minister would provide me the accurate dollar figures since he has said he does not have them available. I want to ask him then to clarify: What was the rate for lodging with hotels, the residences, the different colleges and universities that have been arranged through Emergency Measures operations? Hon.

Frank Pitura · (Minister of Government Services): Madam Speaker, I do not have an answer to that. I will take that question as notice and get the information for my honourable friend. Rate Changes Ms. Marianne Cerilli (Radisson): Can the minister tell us when this policy for these rates was set, and have there been any changes recently in this policy for the rates through Emergency Measures operations? Hon. Frank Pitura (Minister of Government Services): Again, Madam Speaker, I do not have the specific information for that question. I will take it as notice and get the information for the member.

Disaster Assista nce Deductible Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam Speaker, my question is for the Premier. Earlier today the Premier indicated that what he wants is something that is reasonable, he wants something that is fair. The government's ability to forecast flood levels many would argue was impacted because of some of the cutbacks that this government had enacted in previous years.

The question that I have for the Premier: Given the special circumstances, the false sense of security that residents in the Grande Pointe area, for example, were given, should they have to be additionally penalized by having to pay a deductible? Will the Premier acknowledge that in fact special consideration should be given to these area residents? Hon.

Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, I will resist the temptation to talk about the federal reductions that are planned and perhaps some that have already taken place by the member's colleagues in Ottawa with respect to water resources monitoring in the Manitoba watershed area. I am informed, and I have the details-! could go through position by position-where any reductions took place in the area of Water Resources. They were in the area of construction workforce; they were in the area of design workforce. because those matters are being contracted out.

It makes little sense to have people on staff to do design and construction where you are paying them for 365 days of the year where it could be done on a job basis at lesser cost to the taxpayer. I am sure that the member opposite would agree with that, that we do not want to be having people paid to do a full year's work when perhaps the time of their work is less than half of the year and you can do it at less cost. All of the positions, as I went through them one by one, did not involve people who were doing monitoring for water levels and measuring for water levels.

Add to that the fact that we now have computerization of much of this; we have in fact better information available to us than we have ever had in our history. What all of these things cannot do, of course, is predict nature. If I adopted the attitude that is being portrayed by the member opposite and others, it would say that today we should be able to, if there is any damage due to sewer backups or water problems because of the precipitation, sue Environment Canada

May 7, 1997 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2361 because they were only predicting 15 millimetres and we now look as though we are going to get 50 millimetres. Every time something like that happens-and we had sewer backups massively in 1993-you cannot sue Environment Canada because they cannot accurately predict a power much greater than us.

I know that sometimes those of us in this Chamber think that we are pretty powerful, but there is a power much greater than we are that controls the weather, that controls the environment, that controls all of those circumstances, and this massive flow of water that has been visited upon us this year is not something that any of us either can control or predict to the kind of accuracy that some people are suggesting should be done. I think, under the circumstances, the Water Resources engineers were remarkably accurate in most areas. *

(1410) I can tell the member opposite that I visited six different locations on Friday, speaking to municipal officials in Emerson, in Letellier, in Dominion City, in St. Jean Baptiste, in Morris, in the R.M. of Morris and in St. Adolphe, and people were saying compliments, nothing but compliments for the accuracy of the predictions, given all of the variables that they faced. So I will not accept the premise of his argument that somehow we can hold responsible the Water Resources engineers for what appears to be an anomaly in the Grande Pointe area that nobody seemed to be able to predict. Mr.

Lamoureux: Madam Speaker, what we are asking the government to do, and particularly the Premier, is to remove the deductible for flood damages where the homeowner can in fact prove that incorrect information was provided. Whatever the Premier might say, he must surely to goodness acknowledge the fact that many of the residents did have a false sense of security in an area. The vast majority of Manitoba, the accuracy was absolutely amazing how accurate the bureaucrats were. In one area, to no fault of their own, individuals did not anticipate.

They were told, in some cases, that they were not going to- Madam Speaker: Order, please. Mr. Fiimon: Madam Speaker, firstly, I understand the trauma that people are facing and the tremendous emotionalism that surrounds this issue, but Water Resources engineers do not go to individual properties and say this is where you should do it. They put out figures daily at different points along the Red River system, and they leave it to others to extrapolate and interpret among those different levels where their houses are and what their level of protection ought to be.

Local authorities oftentimes transmit and transfer the data to the individuals or attempt to assist them, but at the end of the day the individuals who decide that this is where they want to locate their properties in a flood-prone area, on a flood plain have to take some responsibility. We, I think, want to do everything that we think is humanly possible to support them in their efforts, but I do not think it is reasonable to suggest that it is the Water Resources engineers who have to be held responsible for an individual decision or

interpretation of information and data that is made available. Mr. Lamoureux: Madam Speaker, as my second supplementary question to the Premier: Will the Premier or this government commit that those individuals for whatever reasons of limited financial means will in fact be allowed to use up to the full $100,000 if need be, that they are not going to be fearful of not being able to come up with the deductible portion that might be difficult for some people?

Will he guarantee that the deductible in one way or another, whether it is through low-interest loans, no-interest loans, a reduction of the deductible, that those individuals will be able to get their work done? Mr. Filmon: I believe that everybody in this House and indeed all Manitobans want to act with a good deal of compassion as they face the circumstances along with their fellow Manitoba citizens who are in difficulty right now. That being said, I think that there have to be some principles that have to be applied of fairness, of balance and of reasonableness.

That is what is behind our desire to try and look at this on a broader basis as opposed to doing something in the middle of an election campaign or under great stress to try and achieve some purpose. So we are certainly aware that there will be a number of opportunities for people to address what they believe is inadequate support if they believe there is inadequate support for their flood relief requirements and their damage payments, and that includes an appeal process

2362 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 7, 1997 to the disaster financial assistance program. That includes a committee that is being set up now. I even heard on the radio this morning people from public service organizations, service clubs, who are suggesting that, if there are people in hardship who cannot afford to pay the deductible, they will be looking at those kinds of issues.

The people who have been collecting money-and there have been generous donations from right across this country-will be looking at these kinds of issues and try to address them again out of a sense of understanding people's needs and people's abilities to pay. I think that is the way that we should look at it and say there is a whole series of potential applications for these issues of hardship and that there will be people looking at them. Man Globe Research and Development Project Mr. Jim Maloway (Elmwood): My question is to the Deputy Premier.

The Deputy Premier continually refers to the ManGlobe project as an R and D project when he knows full well that it is a failed Internet mall. Madam Speaker, if it is an R and D project, then why does page 3 of his ManGlobe Virtual Corporation status report of July II, '95, say the following? Under provincial government it says: Funds from the Canada Manitoba Communications Agreement will be used mostly for human resources along with other operation expenses. If this is an R and D project, then why did he not use the money for R and D? Hon.

James Downey (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): It certainly is important that the human element be very much involved in this type of activity in doing the research and development that does in fact lead to job creation, to new technology that can be applied and the broader context as it relates to the Internet activity. I can assure the member and assure all members of this House that the intent of the project, the support that was given will in fact continue to be used as it was intended to do and that is to create employment and new activities. Mr.

Maloway: The minister knows that there was no R and D developed here. I do not know why he keeps insisting that there is. Mr. Fred Holder from SHL at a steering committee meeting July 14, 1995, was noted as saying that the likelihood providing an off-the-shelf solution through the initial pilot and port to a blueprint model, architecture already developed by SHL, clearly indicating that there was no R and D in this project. Will the minister admit that this is not an R and D project but a failed Internet shopping mall? Mr. Downey: No, Madam Speaker. Salaries Mr.

Jim Maloway (Elmwood): Madam Speaker, my final supplementary to the same minister is this: Why does the minister continue to hide the salary figure for the president when the project figures clearly show that the salary was $240,000? If this is not the figure, then what was the actual figure? Hon. James Downey (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): I have been informed that part of the agreement by which financing was made available to the individual, that the salary would be no more than $90,000 a year. I made reference in the House last week to 18 months of something like $130,000-some.

I think that is comparable to what I said the other day. *

(1420) Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation No-Fault Insurance Mr.

Steve Ashton (Thompson): Madam Speaker, the Minister responsible for MPIC just released the 1996 annual report for MPIC, and there is clear indication that rather than take the concept of no-fault, which was intended to make sure that claimants received the full amount of claims, we are now seeing evidence in a report of what has happened under the no-fault system brought in by this government, which ignored 35 recommendations, amendments brought in by the NDP, that the injury costs going to Manitobans under MPIC have dropped from $194 million prior to no-fault to $103 million.

I am wondering if the Minister responsible for MPIC can confirm that this is partly due to the fact that the number of claims now filed under this new system has been cut by nearly one-half.

May 7, 1997 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2363 Hon. James McCrae (Minister charged with the administration of The Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation Act): Madam Speaker, thanks to the good work of the Manitoba Public Insurance in sponsoring RoadWise projects and getting people involved, part of the answer to the honourable member's question may have to do with the fact that at least 39 fewer Manitobans lost their lives in 1996, and there were almost 4,500 fewer Manitobans injured in collisions.

That would account for some of the numbers the honourable member referred to, but the important thing that Manitoba Public Insurance does is it plays a role as a key partner in bringing about a safer Manitoba, which is one of the things that MPIC can do and is doing as reflected in these numbers. Mr. Ashton: I am wondering if the minister would care to read his own report. Will he confirm that his own report which he just tabled a few minutes ago indicates that the no-fault system is, quote, performing even better than anticipated, resulting in a lower-cost per-injury claim?

Will he confirm the fact that the way they have implemented no-fault has ensured that Manitobans who get injured as a result of automobile accidents are now receiving far less benefits than they did under the previous system, because this government ignored 35 amendments brought in by the New Democrats? Mr. McCrae: The honourable member cannot have it both ways. He and his colleagues support the no-fault aspect of Autopac insurance coverage on the one hand, and then they come along and complain about it when it appears to be working to the benefit of Manitobans.

The fact is that the honourable member forgets a very significant feature of all of this: 35 percent or so of the costs of these kinds of claims in the past had to do with legal costs. The honourable member for Thompson wants to go back to that system; well, let him say so. Mr. Ashton: Madam Speaker, I want to make sure that Manitobans injured as a result of automobile accidents receive what they are entitled to.

I would like the minister to explain-because obviously he either has not read this report or does not want to listen to the facts-can he explain again why the number of claims has dropped from $194 million to $103 million, when in fact his own report indicates it is not because of declines in legal costs; it is not because of declines in number of accidents; it is because under the new system Manitobans who get injured receive far less benefits, something that is confirmed in this report. Mr.

McCrae: Madam Speaker, again, the honourable member ignores altogether the wonderful results that Manitobans are achieving for themselves simply by being better drivers and paying more attention to the rules of the road and going along with the concepts embodied in the whole RoadWise program. So, again, I cannot understand the honourable member not supporting the results being achieved under the no-fault insurance aspect of MPI when what is required is to see that people are appropriately compensated for legitimate claims that they are making, and every indication suggests that is exactly what is happening.

Indeed, we have in place a review of the no-fault, which was part of the legislation brought forward about four years ago, and that review under the stewardship of Mr. Sam Uskiw is underway right now. Fishing Industry Regulations-Consu ltations Mr. Stan Struthers (Dauphin): Madam Speaker, the day before yesterday the Minister of Natural Resources announced some regulations regarding fishing on Lake Winnipeg.

The minister in one meeting with the north basin fishermen promised that, before he would introduce any further regulations, he would meet with them again and get their input on the regulations that he was considering before he made them law. Why did the minister not consult with these fishermen before he announced these regulations on Monday? Hon.

Glen Cummings (Minister of Natural Resources): Well, Madam Speaker, the nature of the changes that we made were such that I think the majority of the fishermen in all basins of Lake Winnipeg should feel comfortable that they fall well within the parameters of advice that they were providing to me. We did not make any radical deviations from the recommendations that they made. In fact, I suspected that the criticism might have been that we did not make enough radical changes.

2364 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 7, 1997 Nevertheless, the most significant aspect of this is to contain the opening of the fishing season until the appropriate number of pickerel and sauger have spawned. I am sure that the member for Dauphin and every fisherman on the lake would concur that we need to make sure that we have an adequate spawn in order to rehabilitate the stocks in the lake. Whitefish-Net Mesh Size Mr.

Stan Struthers (Dauphin): Madam Speaker, if the minister was worried about conserving fish stocks, why did he then reduce the mesh size from 5 inches to 4 and a quarter inches for the whitefish fleet in the north part of Lake Winnipeg? Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister of Natural Resources): Madam Speaker, that change is quite in line with the other areas of that lake. Remember-and I am sure the member is well aware-that there is a significant volume of whitefish available, but there is a significant restriction on the whitefish fleet so that they may only capture 20 percent of their take in pickerel and sauger.

That change in mesh size really only allows for the capture or the harvest to proceed without changing the type of fish that is being taken or the volume that is being taken in the two species about which we are concerned. It does, in fact, harmonize the mesh size with most of the other areas in the lake. Madam Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has expired. ORDERS OF THE DAY Hon. James McCrae (Government House Leader): Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the honourable Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship (Mrs.

Vodrey), that Madam Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. Motion agreed to. Madam Speaker: Due to the unavailability of the Deputy Speaker (Mr. Laurendeau), the honourable member for Sturgeon Creek (Mr. McAlpine) will Chair the Committee of Supply in the Chamber, and the honourable member for Pembina (Mr. Dyck) will Chair the Committee of Supply in Room 255. *

(1430) COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY (Concurrent Sections) CONSUMER AND CORPORATE AFFAI RS The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Dyck): Order, please. Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This afternoon this

section of the Committee of Supply meeting in Room 255 will resume consideration of the Estimates of the Department of Consumer and Corporate Affairs. When the committee last sat, it had been considering item 5.3. Corporate Affairs (

h) Companies Office on page 26 of the Estimates book. Shall the item pass? *

(1440) Mr. Jim Maloway (Elmwood): Perhaps before we begin today, I would like to ask the minister whether he was able to make arrangements for us to have the people from the Insurance branch attend-so he did receive that message then-and the Cooperative and Credit Union Regulation people-we want to ask questions about co-ops. Hon. Mike Radcliffe (Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs): Yes, Mr. Chairman, I am told that both those individual directors will be scheduled and present in the committee room today. We at the present time have Mr.

Rick Wilson, who is the senior officer from the Land Titles Office, here and is ready to assist with any questions that my honourable colleague may have. We have scheduled the other individuals for reasonable intervals throughout the afternoon. Mr. Maloway: Well, I guess I would like to begin by asking virtually the same questions of this SOA as I have of the other SOAs, and that is for a list of the fees that they charged before it became an SOA and the current list of fees and any

schedule of increases that have occurred between the time it became an SOA and the current fees? Mr. Radcliffe: Mr. Chairman, I am pleased to be able to tell my honourable friend that in fact the only

May 7, 1997 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2365 increase in fees that has been occasioned at the Land Titles Office in Manitoba is a $10 rise for the registration of mortgages and transfers, and that is the only fee increase there has been since 1988. As my honourable colleague no doubt is aware, there is a land transfer tax now on transfers of land which is on a graduated basis depending on the value of the real estate that is being transferred or the mortgage, the face value of the mortgage, that is being registered, and so therefore-[interjection] I stand corrected.

I did recollect, but I was not sure of myself. The mortgage is a flat $60 charge right now. So this represents on an $80,000 house an increase of 2.8 percent, and on a $100,000, it would be a 2 percent increase. The reason for this is in order to make the service a cost-recovery service in order that we are able to supply nothing but the best of service to Manitobans and to be able to employ high-quality employees and to support the work that is involved with the registrations of the documentation and to keep up with the technology in the Land Titles Office. Mr.

Maloway: Then could the minister tell us what the profitability of this SOA was for the last 12 months? Was it better or worse than projected? Mr. Radcliffe: I am pleased to be able to tell my honourable colleague that, in fact, in the past year, L TO was running at a small deficit. It was not making money for the province of Manitoba. The $10 fee increase was an attempt by the administration to bring the Land Titles

section of the registry office to a break even position. Mr. Maloway: That was the case this past year, but what is it projected to show for the next year and the year after? I am looking for the lead-up to the run up to the 1999 election, of course. Mr. Radcliffe: Mr. Chairman, I am pleased to be able to advise my honourable colleague that the Land Titles Office, the Personal Property Security Registry have been combined into a special operating agency to be known as the registry office for the province of Manitoba.

Now, the Personal Property Security Registry has always run at a significant profit, and there the fees, as you are no doubt aware, are determined by the value of the security that is being registered. This coming year the registry will be paying a dividend under the business plan of $1.8 million to the Consolidated Revenue of the Province of Manitoba. That will be increased. The following year the registry office will pay a $2-million dividend for the year '99- 2000. *

(1450) Mr. Maloway: The $2 million projected in 1998-99, now that money from the SOAs-I am trying to get at the financial arrangements that you have with the Consolidated Fund. If you produce a deficit in any given year, then how is the deficit offset? By money flowing from the Consolidated Fund? You know, you had a deficit some years. When you work on a profitability, you are turning your profits year by year to the Consolidated Fund. You are not allowed to keep them in your fund. Mr. Radcl iffe: I would challenge my honourable colleague on that.

My understanding at least of an SOA is that the SOA files a business plan with government and there are all the attributes, of course, of an activity which has the ability to stand alone, is self-contained, et cetera. The SOA will be assigned and agrees to payment of a dividend to the Consolidated Revenue branch and then anything over, anything earned in addition to that dividend by way of revenue to that SOA remains at the SOA level to be used as the administration of that SOA sees fit.

They cannot, obviously, take trips or go to consumer living or anything like that-it goes to proper administration of the department-but that is the incentive there so that it gives them the freedom to manage their affairs in such a fashion as they think fit and gives them a little more independence. Mr. Maloway: Mr. Chairman, when the election time comes though, it is quite conceivable that a political decision can be made and the user fees can be lowered at that time. The minister cannot deny that. Mr. Radcliffe: Well, I think that my honourable colleague's question is speculative at best.

Anything is possible, Mr. Chair, but I would say with great sincerity that I would have a great difficulty with that sort of governance at this point in time unless, of course, there

2366 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 7, 1997 was a vast reduction in staff or a significant diminution in the collective agreement or wage rates of the civil servants of the province of Manitoba. But from what I know of the MGEU, I do not know that that is a realistic possibility. Mr. Maloway: Mr. Chairman, has the minister or anybody in his department been approached regarding privatization of this SOA or has interest been shown in the privatization in any quarter at this point? Mr. Radcliffe: Absolutely not. Mr. Maloway: Mr. Chairman, I wanted to deal with the computer situation with regard to this SOA.

Could the minister give us an update as to what sort of system is in place right now, and what sorts of functions this computer system is currently performing and supposed to perform for the department? The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Dyck): Before the minister gives his answer, just a question regarding the Insurance branch as to when they would be here. Could the minister advise us of that approximate time? Mr. Radcliffe: Yes, I think 3:30. . My honourable colleague asked me the status of the computer system in the registry office of the Personal Property Security Registry and the Land Titles.

I can tell him that at the present time Winnipeg, Portage and Brandon Land Titles Offices are all fully computerized. They are on a provincial mainframe and this enables individual law firms or people who are hooked up to Manitoba Online to access preliminary searches through their own computer network. It is proposed that ultimately all the remaining rural Land Titles Offices, namely Dauphin, Neepawa and Morden, will be fully automated within the next number of years. These are some of the smaller offices in the province of Manitoba. The Manitoba Land Titles Office does not have a year 2000 compliant problem.

That is not, in fact, a feature with their land title registry system and with their environment. The Personal Property Security Registry will be moving to a client-server system with a PC-based, personal computer-based, environment. It has a year 2000 problem, compliance problem, and the Better Systems Initiative is at this point in time looking at the PSR computer system with a view to getting this updated and on line and corrected, so that we have software that will adapt to the year 2000. Mr. Maloway: What is involved and what is it going to cost to get this compliant? Mr. Radcliffe: Mr.

Chairman, the cost for the PSR to become 2000 compliant apparently is inextricably tied up in the whole system of BSI, and those are not figures to which we are privy. In fact, I think probably the most appropriate place to ask that question would be in Finance. Mr. Maloway: Mr. Chairman, in one of the other SOAs that we discussed earlier this week, we were told that once the computer system was in place that the profitability of the SOA would be further enhanced by virtue of the fact that six staff members would not be required anymore and would be phased out over time.

What is the projection regarding this SOA on that score? *

(1500) Mr. Radcliffe: Mr. Chair, I believe in the previous SO we were talking about the remark that was made, and the emphasis that was put upon this was that there would be six staff individuals who would no longer be performing the present function that they are under the current paper system or the current technology system that the SOA was functioning under, and in fact there would be an introduction of vacancy management, there would be skill enhancement and there might be sidetracking of these individuals into other functions within that SOA.

Likewise in Land Titles, we do not anticipate at this point in time that there will be any diminution in staff in Land Titles Office. The change in the computerese may have some impact in PSR, but we do not have any read on that at this point in time. Mr. Maloway: Mr. Chairman, my colleague the member for Wolseley (Ms. Friesen) I believe has several questions on this topic, so I will turn it over to her.

May 7, 1997 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2367 Mr. Radcliffe: Fine. I would welcome the honourable Ms. Friesen: How many documents are on that list? member for Wolseley with her questions. Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley): I am interested in the Land Titles documents which have been framed and put on the walls of the Land Titles Office in Winnipeg, I gather. We have raised some questions about this in Question Period, and I want to take this a little further. First of all, I wonder if the minister could tell me on what basis the documents were selected. There is a specific list of documents.

They were chosen as documents important in the history of Manitoba, and I wonder if the minister has a full list of the documents that are available for this particular kind of treatment. Mr. Radcliffe: Mr. Chairman, in response to my honourable colleague's question, apparently all the documents, individual documents in the Land Titles Office now, with the aging of the paper, are being committed to microfilm and being preserved on microfilm.

The process that the management of Land Titles noted was that these documents were then sent to the Archives of the Province of Manitoba either for retention or destruction and largely for destruction. Land Titles felt that there would be a significant loss to the ongoing chronicle or history of the province of Manitoba if in fact a number of documents that were currently in the possession of Land Titles were actually physically destroyed.

Therefore, there was a staff at Land Titles themselves, through their own appreciation of history, either the history of the chronicle of the people of Manitoba generally or of the Land Titles system-those were the two perspectives that were applied to the inspection of the documents. A list of documents was culled and sent to the Archivist for the express purpose of preserving them in perpetuity and to solicit funds from the law firms to have them mounted in an appropriate fashion so that they could be preserved and appreciated in the future. Ms. Friesen: Mr.

Chairman, does the minister have the list of the documents that were so dealt with? Mr. Radcliffe: Yes, we have the list. We do not have it here today, but we certainly would be more than willing to provide it to my honourable colleague. Mr. Radcl iffe: Mr. Chairman, I am told that apparently there are 24 documents that have received this sort of treatment. The period of time covers from 1870 to the present.

I am told that in the normal course of handling documents that a great number of documents have gone to the Archives and have been destroyed, the actual physical paper, and that this list of 24, in fact, was chosen to be representative of the types of documentation that would have been handled by the Manitoba Land Titles system through the course of its history.

I would add for the benefit of my honourable colleague, that in the L T locations outside the city of Winnipeg, a great number of the actual physical documents are still on deposit in the Land Titles offices in either the other cities in Manitoba or the smaller towns. As my honourable colleague is no doubt aware, these documents are deteriorating quickly and every time they are handled they become more and more fragile. I have had occasion to see some of the early titles and the early documentation and work with them, even some of the early registries.

When we were on a registry system of land, the abstract of title book for titles, which has the original spidery handwriting of the original registrar's is becoming more and more fragile. However, these still do exist. Many of them exist in the Land Titles offices outside the city of Winnipeg, and these abstracts covered the land-holding system before the imposition of the Torrens title system which we now currently enjoy in Manitoba. Ms.

Friesen: I wondered if the minister could tell me whether these documents which are, as I understand it now, not necessarily significant historical documents in themselves but representative of types of documents, representation of a type of collection. When you selected those 24, could the minister tell me whether this was done in conjunction with the Archives? The sense I am getting-and it may not be the one that you want to leave on the record-is that these documents were selected in order to preserve them from the destruction of the Archives. That does not make sense to me.

If they are significant documents, the Archives would preserve them. If they are not, then they would be subject to the normal procedures. So I am not sure what the minister wants to leave on the record there.

2368 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 7, 1997 *

(1510) Mr. Radcliffe: I will try to be a little more specific for my honourable colleague, and I am learning more myself as we go along on this. There are two streams or channels of land title documents. Documents under The Real Property Act, which is the present Torrens system, are currently and have been for a number of years in the Winnipeg Land Titles Office committed to microfilm, and then those documents have been sent to the Archivist and indicated to be destroyed in the normal course of business by the Archivists themselves.

Then there is a second category of documents, and this is the grouping from which these 24 representative documents have been culled. These refer to the registry system and the deed system of our history of land title holding, and those were for inspection and perusal by the Archivist to select. The Land Titles people would have made their nomination or selection, and then that would be submitted to the Archivist. The balance of the documents in that category would be subject to the legislation under which the Archivist functions, which our understanding is generally these documents are committed for destruction.

Ms. Friesen: I think the minister might want to say that they are committed for selection rather than destruction. That is not automatic and there are certain principles which any archivist would follow. My guess is that is what is meant and that is the ultimate disposition that the Archivist makes. My concern for the ones that have been selected is their preservation, not just as a representative collection, but in the case, for example, and I am only picking one because I only know the names of four of them, the one which is the transfer of the St. Peters Reserve in 1906.

This is a significant document in itself, I think, probably nationally as well as in terms of Manitoba history. So its selection for matting, framing and display in an area outside of a gallery, outside of the normal conditions of humidity and protection from, well, the public, in many cases is unusual. So I am concerned about the survival of these documents. When an Archives puts documents on display or when a museum puts documents on display, there are very strict international standards, in fact, which are followed.

When Canada sends documents to other jurisdictions for display, as it has done recently, for example, in a big international exhibition on Captain Cook, they must follow the international standards for the circulation and display and preservation of those documents. In many cases, the older documents, say even the 18th Century ones, are actually better able to stand up to modem conditions than those of the early 20th Century, so it is not necessarily age which determines the future preservation, but it is the composition of the paper and the conditions under which they are displayed.

So the matting and display and the conditions of that are important, and I wondered how that has been handled. Has it been handled by the Archives according to Archive standards? Has it been handled by the Land Titles Office according to perhaps more domestic standards of display? Mr. Radcliffe: Mr. Chair, I am told that the Land Titles Office does work with the Archivist at the present time. I am told that there were six documents, out of this list of 24, that have been framed. They were framed by the Birchwood Gallery, which was at the choice and on the behest of the Land Titles Office.

This is not the regular matter and framer that the Archivist chooses and works with, and types of documents that have been mounted in this fashion by this particular gallery are a number of blank titles, forms of certificates of title, and notices of sale.

In addition to those, the second transfer of land in the province of Manitoba has been treated in this fashion as well, and the Land Titles is considering, at this point in time, taking this particular document out of circulation, submitting it to the framer that is the framer of choice by the Archivist in order that it can be inspected and, if necessary, rematted and reframed. I concur with my honourable colleague with the aspect of the deterioration of the documents of which she speaks.

In fact, I had the occasion to sit on the board at the Museum of Man and Nature when the archives of the Hudson's Bay Company were turned over to the museum, and a great number of those early documents were still in incredibly good shape. Even though they had been sitting up in the Lower Fort for the last number of years, there had been some archival activity on them.

May 7, 1997 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2369 In any event, to go back to Land Titles, Land Titles does circulate and proposes to, in the future, circulate these documents and only leaving them out for stated periods of time because the light will cause deterioration as well. So this is another issue that Land Titles is sensitive to. There are approximately, I guess, 18 documents that are yet to be treated in this fashion, and these documents are on deposit still in the Land Titles Office where they had remained up until this point in time.

They are earmarked for future care in the fashion which we have outlined. Ms. Friesen: Mr. Chairman, I think that would give much greater comfort if we could be assured that the documents which are framed are kept in places where they can be protected, where the light conditions and the matting conditions are of archjval standards and, first of all, the archival standards of the province of Manitoba, which I assume are certainly moving towards international standards. So I would leave that with the minister. I think he may be on the right track.

It sounds as though a mistake was made, and I certainly hope that can be rectified. *

(1520) The second issue I have again relates to the documents, and my understanding is that they are being offered essentially, like, for sponsorship just as one can sponsor an animal at the zoo or one can sponsor a variety of things. Am I right in my understanding of that, and could you tell me the kinds of conditions of sponsorship which you are offering? Is it, you know, X number of dollars for so many years? Are there only one-year terms? Do they tum over every five years? What are the conditions of sponsorship? Mr. Radcliffe: Mr. Chairman, I am advised that the sponsorship is to cover the cost of framing.

The solicitation was done to the law firms in the city of Winnipeg, those whom I presume, and this is just my wording at this point, that Land Titles probably thought would be appropriate, who would be interested in such a sponsorship.

The length of time of the sponsorship is in fact, in essence, determined by the Archivist, because there is a little acknowledgement plaque that would be on the face of the document or on the face of the framing, and so the Archivist would determine how long that document can be left out in the light, and then once that period of time has transpired, the document is removed and secured so that publicity or sponsorship would then be removed from the eyes of the public until it could be recirculated again. Ms. Friesen: Mr.

Chair, so that company or corporation which wanted continuing sponsorship would presumably sponsor three or four so that one would be out of circulation while the other one or two were left. So the price of framing, my guess, is probably in the region of $300 to $500. Is that the price that the- Mr. Radcliffe: Yes, my honourable colleague is correct that it is in the $300 to $500 range. Ms. Friesen: I just wanted to make sure also that the documents remain on display in the Land Titles Office not in lawyers' offices. Mr. Radcliffe: Absolutely co� ect.

I made this quite abundantly clear on the floor of the House one day, and that in fact Mr. Brown, who is a practicing solicitor in town, had made a misstatement in Headnotes and Footnotes. There was a subsequent retraction published, and I did spot it and I forwarded that to Ms. McGifford for her knowledge and edification as well. But my honourable colleague is absolutely correct, these documents are displayed in the environs of the Land Titles Office. Ms. Friesen: Is it the intention of the minister to limit sponsorship to legal firms? How else has it been advertised?

I guess that is one aspect that certainly concerned me and other members of our caucus. The sponsorship that was offered appeared to be only offered to legal firms for the document, for example, of the 1906 transfer of St. Peters Reserve. Mr. Chairman, can I add another question at the same time, and that is if the minister can advise me whether or not such sponsorship and the listing of legal firms constitutes advertising within the Land Titles Office. Mr.

Radcliffe: As a point of clarification, does my honourable colleague mean advertising as regulated by The Law Society Act, or is there some other parameter that my honourable colleague is referring to? I am not sure I understand the ambit of her question.

2370 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 7, 1997 Ms. Friesen: It probably should have been a separate question. Yes, there are two subaspects of that. One is advertising within the constraints of legal discipline, and, secondly, of course, the issue of general advertising within a government services office. Mr. Radcliffe: Mr. Chairman, in response to my honourable colleague's question, Land Titles does not intend to limit the solicitation to the law firms in the city of Winnipeg at all, and, in fact, the process that was followed was that there was an approach to the Manitoba Bar Real Property Subsection.

They were consulted. They canvassed their membership, and they were in charge of the solicitation of the different law firms involved. Issues such as privacy and the whole issue of the archival input was also considered, because the preservation issue is obviously a matter of some sensitivity as well. My department is not really in a position to say whether this is or is not advertising per se pursuant to The Law Society Act. I would perhaps refer my honourable colleague to Ms. McCawley at the Law Society for determination of that issue.

I guess, further along that line, that there has been no determination by Land Titles either whether this is, in fact, commercial advertising within a government building. This is perhaps more of an acknowledgment that an individual entity has covered the costs for the particular mounting and preservation of a document. I would be loath to condone banner headlines in the Land Titles Office saying shop at Aikins MacAulay for your legal needs, in glowing lights in the basement of the Woodsworth Building. I do not think that is appropriate, and I do not think that is the way we are going.

I think it is a very significant question, and acknowledgments have been restricted to the form of acknowledgment only in order to not get involved in that sort of disputation or consideration of advertising in government buildings. *

(1530) Ms. Friesen: It may well be more properly a question for the Minister of Government Services (Mr. Pitura). The principle that the minister suggested there of an acknowledgment of the covering of the cost, I mean, looking around here at a certain number of premiers, one wonders if the cost of reframing or the cost of painting, for example, might well be acknowledged. As I look around, I can suggest some interesting sponsors for some of these portraits, but I will refrain from doing so.

That principle I think is an interesting one, and, of course, it is not the issue of having neon lights in the Land Titles building. It is an issue of clients, customers, the general public in the land titles business for the purpose of a certain type of business and their eye happening to catch upon the name of a particular type of lawyer or particular legal firm.

So I think it is one that I will pose to Government Services to see what kind of policy directives they and other governments have on this, and I take the minister's response on the issue of the Law Society being the appropriate person for the other aspect of my question. I would like to ask the minister how he proposes to broaden the offer of sponsorship. Who else has he spoken to? Who else has it been advertised to? What plans does he have for that kind of broadening? How many of these documents of the original list of 24 have already been taken up in sponsorship? Mr.

Radcliffe: I can tell my honourable colleague that, in fact, there has been a canvass of the law firms as I had indicated previously. There has been some interest in the law firms, but I am told that there has been no uptake at this point in time. There has been some interest shown by a number of law firms in town. The Land Titles administration is considering next moving, once the whole milieu of the law firms has been researched, to the large client groups that deal with Land Titles. This would include mortgage lenders, credit unions. Members of the general public would not be excluded.

In fact, I may hear and I would pass on to Land Titles my honourable colleague's name as, in fact, somebody who may be interested in promoting and sponsoring such an activity. I would also note, as I think my honourable colleague is aware, that this practice has been publicized in

May 7, 1997 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2371 Headnotes and Footnotes. So any of the recipients of Headnotes and Footnotes, which is a legal journal which I believe is where our honourable colleague Ms. McGifford picked up the infonnation initially, anyone who reads that is aware of what is going on in Land Titles Office. So if they have any interest, Land Titles would obviously be open to being approached if there were general interest in the general public. Ms. Friesen: Well, I thank the honourable minister for his offer to me of sponsorship.

It is not one I think I will take up at this point, but we were discussing on this side of the table that perhaps the fonner Premier Sterling Lyon-there might be a number of people interested in sponsoring that portrait. I wonder if the minister sees this as an expanding element of government fundraising. Mr.

Radcliffe: Well, I am sure that the creative juices of the party brass are always at work to look for more innovative ways to create fundraising schemes for support of good government in Manitoba and to perpetuate the ongoing existence of the Filmon government in perpetuity to the horizon, but short of that I would take my honourable colleague's suggestion and place it in the appropriate receptacle and consider it passed on. Mr. Daryl Reid (Transcona): I would like to ask the minister- The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Dyck): Excuse me. Could you pull your mike in, please. Mr.

Reid: Could the minister tell me: Is the Land Titles department responsible for the survey monuments throughout the province? Mr. Radcliffe: My honourable colleague has raised a very interesting problem with regard to Land Titles. Initially, when the whole province was surveyed, there were monuments placed across the province of Manitoba. This was done as the basic support system for our current Torrens Land Titles system. I believe that in each

section of land across the country there are three monuments or wooden stakes that were placed in each section. I disremember specifically where they are. I know there are three stakes, wooden stakes, yes, that is right, that were placed by the original surveyors when they went across the countryside in 1870 and shortly thereafter, and I am sure my honourable colleague is aware of all the rebellion and angst that was raised with that initial survey.

As you can appreciate, over the passage of time a number of these monuments have deteriorated and also with the passage of time, with farmers farming fields, where there has been tillage of the land right up to the access roads or sometimes the road allowance where the access roads do not exist, or where there is plowing of the roads and grading by the local municipalities, a number of these monuments have been displaced. So I have become aware of the fact that there is an ongoing concern by the rural municipalities right now as to promoting a scheme for replacement of the monuments in Manitoba.

If we were to embark at this point in time and this is sort of the worst possible case scenario, if we were to resl!rvey the province of Manitoba with the current technology that we have right now to replace all the wooden monuments and in many cases to try to relocate the monuments that have deteriorated and disappeared, we are looking at a cost of somewhere in excess of $750 million. So at this point in time this is something which I would respectfully submit is probably out of the reach of the Land Titles system as we are practicing it in Manitoba.

However, the only legislation which touches on responsibility for displacement of the survey monument rests in The Surveys Act, which I think is

Section 4 of The Surveys Act, which states that if a rural municipality has displaced or destroyed a monument, then the responsibility and the cost of replacement rests with the rural municipality-which is not rocket scientist. It seems appropriate that the responsibility would be there if they were, in fact, in charge of grading the roads or moving it. (Mr.

Mervin Tweed, Acting Chairperson, in the Chair) I have taken some advice on this, as well, from a number of surveyors in the system, and I am told, and I think this is a matter of opinion and may yet be speculative, that a surveyor is able to discern-if the monument has not been disturbed, a surveyor is able to discern from perhaps almost some research, dusting the

2372 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 7, 1997 land and digging and trowelling, et cetera, where the monument did exist even if it has disappeared. This is a matter of opinion and there is perhaps some controversy amongst surveyors at this point in time. *

(1540) The next thing I can tell my honourable colleague is that the major areas of concern right now for this issue of monumenting the survey system in Manitoba is restricted largely to the south end of the province where the majority of people are found and where there is more intensive use of the land. The rural municipalities are estimating-and all the figures that I am giving, I want to caution my honourable colleague, are only guesstimates at this point in time, and therefore they do tend to perhaps be exaggerated, and we could be open to comment and criticism that they may be too high or too low.

But the best available knowledge we have right now is that it is approximately a $35,000-a-year problem to the existing municipalities. I have been approached by my colleagues in Rural Development with a number of ideas as to how to finance a replacing of the monuments, and I am personally of a mind that it is desirable to replace the monuments, especially in rural Manitoba. It should be done sooner than later because, of course, the �ystem that we have is a failing system.

The issue then remains as to how it is going to be paid for, and I do not believe that the Province of Manitoba is in a position to write a cheque to have this all done at once with a ticket for $750 million, if, in fact, that should be the case. That figure, I must tell my honourable friend, is an extrapolation forward from the minutiae, from the micro to the macrocosm.

There have been a number of suggestions that have been brought forward, one of which was to add on an additional levy for all registration of all documents in the Land Titles Office, and I personally did not favour that scheme because, in fact, I felt that there were a number of individuals who would benefit from the remonumentation who, in fact, would not be paying for it because they are not necessarily transferring land. They would be the passive recipients.

If you hold a particular title for 60-70 years, being your active lifespan perhaps of owning land, and never sell it, never mortgage it, never have any transactions on it, but your monuments have disappeared, you then would be receiving a benefit from a selected group of the public who had been mortgaging or who had been trading in land, transferring land, so, therefore, you are selecting an exclusive grouping of our citizens to pay for a benefit to all of Manitobans, not necessarily who are supporting it themselves. So from a philosophical point of view, I had problems with that sort of approach and concept.

The other approach which I advanced was that the municipalities raise the local levies to pay for this. I am told that this has not met with general accord in the municipalities. So we are very much in the negotiating period, at this point in time, between the Land Titles people and Rural Development, the municipality people, to find some way to pay for this renovation which must be done. I personally acknowledge, and I think that all my staff and the Land Titles people acknowledge, that it must be done, and it must be done soon.

It is a deteriorating system, because, of course, the original surveyors who put this system in place did not address their minds, I guess, at that point in time, to the fact that wooden stakes buried in the land will rot and disappear over a very short length of time, plus these monuments do form the very basis for our Land Titles system because there is no point in having a theoretical Torrens system, a paper system or a computerized electronic system if you do not know where you are out on the actual land. So these are some of the ramifications that we have been working with, debating.

I am pleased to be able to share this with my honourable colleague, and this brings you more or less up to date as to where we are at this point in the whole search for an answer. Perhaps, it was more than he wanted to know and was afraid to ask but- Mr. Reid: No, Mr. Chairperson, the minister gave a fairly detailed explanation there, and I appreciate that.

There has been some concern that we are lagging behind in the province and our monuments and markers are disappearing through various activities in the province, including nature, and that if we do not take steps now to correct the problem and have some type of

May 7, 1997 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2373 a plan in place to restore those markers, of course, your cost is going to only increase in the future. Can the minister tell me, because he says he does not agree with the levying of a fee for those that register land transfers through the Land Titles branch, what other proposals that he has in place, you know, to address it outside of the one that the municipalities themselves are now balking at? Are there other options that you have available that you are considering at this point in time?

Perhaps some of the ones that maybe some of your colleagues may have raised as well. Mr. Radcliffe: Well, I believe this has been an issue of some debate amongst a number of my colleagues. I would suggest to my honourable colleague that we are open to suggestions on this. One possibility may be to create a fund within the Land Titles system which could be devoted periodically to this renovation. I think that the answer is probably to approach it on an incremental basis, and to go to the areas where there is a dearth of monuments and then fan out from there across the province.

I concur with my honourable colleague in his remarks that, in fact, this is something that needs to be addressed, and needs to be addressed, as I had said, sooner than later. We are very concerned about it. The issue, as I have touched on, of just writing a cheque out of consolidated revenue, I do not think is on.

I think that raising fees in the Land Titles Office is something which we are sensitive to at this point in time, not only from a philosophical basis that I had just pointed out, but as well there has just been, as you have heard, a rise in fees, effective May 1, of $10 on the registrations for mortgages. So I do not think that the timing is appropriate, at this point in time, to layer another rise in fees on the consuming public, as well, so that goes against that argument.

We propose, in the very near future, to be sitting down with a number of the reeves and councillors from the municipalities in Manitoba to canvass in a workshop or a more extended discussion group some of the potential solutions that there may well be out there for this issue. Mr. Reid: So when the minister says he is sitting down with the reeves of the various municipalities, are these negotiations being undertaken in conjunction with UMM representatives? Is that who the negotiating body is going to be for the various municipalities throughout the province? Mr.

Radcliffe: I do not want to raise a false apprehension of activity here with my honourable colleague. I had an appointment scheduled with the UMM people, and it had to be cancelled partially I think because of the floods. These people were unable to come into the city of Winnipeg and also because of the onset of Estimates. But I can say that I have met several times with the Minister of Rural Development (Mr. Derkach) on this issue, and we look forward in the immediate future to meeting with the representatives from UMM. Mr.

Reid: The minister talked about a $750-million worst-case scenario to put in place all the survey markers throughout the provine<e. That is an extensive amount of money. What type of a time frame do you have in mind that you would like to see this process start to restore the markers in the province? Are we going to let negotiations drag on for years and years, or do you have a time frame in mind that you would like to see some step developed, the first step of the process to putting in place the necessary funds? Also, where do you anticipate starting this type of work?

Are you going to have a plan in place where you are going to have several survey crews in the province start to do that surveying work, that remonumentation work throughout the province, taking into mind the importance of where the bulk of the population is but not to ignore other areas, you know, central and northern Manitoba where we also have a significant number of Manitobans who would also need to have that accuracy of title of property as well with respect to the survey monuments? *

(1550) Mr. Radcliffe: Mr. Chairman, I concur with my honourable colleague's remarks that in fact there is a need for this monumentation to be addressed in central Manitoba, in northern Manitoba, in fact any places where there are concentrations of population and landholdings of Manitobans. I would also want to advise my honourable colleague that in fact 30 percent

2374 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 7, 1997 of the problem rests within the boundaries of the city of Winnipeg as well. There has got to be a remonumentation in the city of Winnipeg because of the same reasons, that these monuments have deteriorated. I did not want to leave the impression with him that this was uniquely or peculiarly a rural pro�lem. I �hose to talk about a rural problem for point of tllustrahon of destruction and removal of the monuments, but in fact it also exists as an urban problem as well.

One of the proposals that has been suggested, to readdr�ss another issue that my honourable colleague had ratsed, was a sharing of the expense for this remonumentation with the municipalities, be they rural or urban municipalities, across the province. The Land Titles is anticipating that this process will be engaged and underway within the next year, so we are looking at a reasonably quick uptake on it. We would do it on a priority basis.

For example, if a landowner or a surveyor were to come to Land Titles and say •. basically on a complaint-driven process, I cannot g�ve an adequate survey to a particular township or a parttcular quarter

section because I cannot find a monument; I have to go 10 miles down the road, or if there were a particular subdivision being conducted within an urban environment and there were difficulties there, that would be where the surveying teams would first address their attention. Then again, it would be on an incremental basis slowly, year by year. One of the areas, where ther� possibly, and this again is blue-skying, is that the Personal Property Security Registry might be an appropriate area where funds could be collected and held.

The Personal Property Security Registry is an area that shows a profit from year to year in the exercise of its activity, so if there were funds that were �o.�e--excuse � e, I stand corrected, because one of my tmttal suggestiOns on this to address this was that we anticipate or hope that there will be excess funds generated over the next year to two to three to four and int� the future on the whole Property Registry system, be tt personal property or real property registry, that are not required by the Consolidated Fund for government purposes.

I had indicated to my honourable colleague before, I think it was $2 million, $1.8 million this year and then $2 mi.llion thereafter that could be devoted to building up thts fund to cover the costs in the future, and that would be, perhaps, the Land Titles component for raising this money. Now this again is a suggestion that has been voiced about within the confines of Land Titles staff at this point and our colleagues within this room, and I do not think it has gone much further than that. It is something that we think may be feasible, and I see my honourable colleague, the Minister of Agriculture (Mr.

Enns) raising his eyebrows at this. This is coming as news to him. This is one other idea of where funds could be raised and a repository formed in order to expend to try and cure this issue. Hon. Harry Enos (Minister of Agriculture): I am delighted to join my colleague's Estimates at this �articular time on this particular issue.

Regrettably, it ts one of those issues that does not have a great deal of profile, it is not politically sexy, but it is an extremely important one, and I acknowledge I think that governments have to take, past governments, governments that I have been a part of, considerable responsibility, and not in a measured way, trying to restore the survey monuments in the province. It really acts very inequitably.

I am not that familiar with how it works in an urban setting where you have, as a rule, land divisions, land lots, you know, acquired if they are new through development agencies, and the established ones, of course, are there.

In rural Manitoba, and within one municipality, because the difference can be for somebody like myself if I want to subdivide a bit of land for my son or daughter, I can face a nominal $500, $600, $700 surveyor's fee or a $10,000 surveyor's fee within the same municipality, depending entirely on if he has to trace, as you said, he has to go back eight or nine miles to find markers, the clock is ticking on the surveyor's clock. So it is a real issue in rural Manitoba. I would encourage you, Mr.

Minister, to resist the temptation of putting costs on a small grouping which might be convenient for people who are attaching it to Land Titles for instances, people in a land titles draw transfer. That is, as you said earlier, just transferring it to a relatively small, select group of people, that in my opinion would not be fair. Quite frankly, I believe this

May 7, 19 97 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2375 is a government responsibility. I think initially it was a federal government responsibility. Were they not federal surveyors that marched across this landscape and met one Louis Riel in Fort Garry? This an appropriate time to raise it. But, no, I am not making jest of this. I just think that this ought to be able to-I really encourage you to use all the new vigour that you bring to this department, your influence that you have on Treasury Board.

Look at Jules Benson squarely in the eye and Eric Stef anson in the eye and demand a fair appropriation for this amount. You would have the Ministry of Agriculture's support for this. Mr. Radcliffe: I would thank the honourable Minister of Agriculture for those well- seasoned remarks. I would only take issue with one aspect of his address to the assembly here today when he says that this does not have a high profile.

I want to assure the Minister of Agriculture that in the environs of the Land Titles Office and the Department of Consumer and Corporate Affairs, which of course is responsible for Land Titles, as I indicated earlier, the issue of restoration of monumentation in Manitoba forms the very basis for our land titles holding system, our real property holding system. Therefore, this assumes a very high proportion of consequence and need. I want to reassure the honourable Minister of Agriculture that this will not go unmentioned in the halls of government.

I thank him for his support, and I will look forward to calling on that support from time to time as may be required for this issue. * (1 600) Mr. Reid: The Minister of Agriculture did raise a good point with respect to problems in the rural area. I can say that there is definitely a need from what I can see, an imbalance or an inequity that is in the system currently. The minister mentioned in his comments-and reflecting on them-! believe that some 30 percent of the work that is needed to be done with respect to remonumentation is within the confines of the city of Winnipeg.

What negotiations have you undertaken with the City of Winnipeg, which is obviously the largest municipality in the province, to work towards-are you looking at establishing a partnership arrangement to undertake that type of work? What steps have been taken to commence those negotiations with the City of Winnipeg? Mr.

Radcliffe: I can advise my honourable colleague that, in fact, there has been no discussion with the City of Winnipeg to date with regard to asking them to participate on a partnership basis to support funding of this issue yet, but I can tell him that is something that we will anticipate very shortly. There has been discussion with the City of Winnipeg through Land Titles Of fice to define and describe the extent of the problem within the city of Winnipeg. The municipality of the City of Winnipeg is aware that it exists; they have addressed it with their survey department.

The discussions had centred around establishing a committee to address the prioritization of the remonumentation in the city of Winnipeg and the implementation of the restoration itself. The other side of the ledger sheet, the debit side, has not been addressed with the city fathers or the city mothers at this point, but that is something that I will look forward to with anticipation. Mr. Reid: I may have missed this, and I apologize if I did not catch the minister's comments.

I am not sure if he reflected or responded to my question earlier with respect to whether or not he is going to have, once the agreement is reached, hopefully soon with the reeves of the various municipalities or the mayors of the municipalities, teams of surveyors go throughout the province working in several areas to undertake the type of work so that we are not just concentrating the efforts on one particular small

section of the province. Are we going to have teams of people go out and do the restoration of those survey monuments? Mr. Radcliffe: I did address that question, albeit maybe perhaps somewhat obliquely, in one of my previous answers, and the response and intention of Land Titles, to keep this within a manageable ambit at this poin t in time, is to respond basically on a complaint-driven process. So, for example, if the Honourable Mr. Enns were to do a yardsite subdivide and were to notify Land Titles that he had to run a line some I 0 miles or five miles before he could get a monument and the survey bill was going to be significant, we would immediately respond into that

2376 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 7, 19 97 area of Lakeside. If it were something within the city of Winnipeg- An Honourable Member: No, that would not work. They would nail me for political favouritism. Mr. Radcliffe: Well, I only use the honourable Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Enns), you know, as representational of an individual who might be in a rural setting, or if the honourable col league for Elmwood (Mr. Maloway}-[interjection] The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Tweed): The honourable minister, to complete his comments. Mr.

Radcliffe: So basically it would be complaint driven, it would be intermittent ad hoc, yes, at this point in time so that the worst areas, the areas of greatest need would be addressed first. I believe that after that had been addressed, there would be some sort of consistency where Land Titles would identify, they would have to survey the need itself and describe the need and then address that on a consistent basis after the initial ad hoc requirements were satisfied. Mr. Reid: I guess my "Concern here is that the ad hoc issues will never fade away until the whole province has been resurveyed.

So essentially what you are going to be doing is going along, from what I understand the minister's comments to be, putting out fires in different areas of the province, and it is going to take years. It does not seem to me that you are going to have an orderly plan in place to try to re-establish.

So if you go into the Lakeside area and you address the concerns of the Minister of Agriculture's neighbours, not necessarily his own holdings out there, but his neighbour's, for example, and then you may not go back into that area for some period of time, maybe years, to address problems in there, then you are going to be doing it in such an ad hoc fashion you are not going to have a uniform plan to address the problems in those areas.

But if you have got teams of people that can go into a region and address the problems of those regions, and eventually over that period of time you can solve those problems, I think, by having those teams in place. So if you got a team into the Interlake area and it addresses the problems immediately that they need, it can continue to work within that area. If it is somebody in southern Manitoba, you can have another team down there and another team in northern Manitoba or several teams in each of those zones, if you want to call it that.

Then you would have the opportunity to have an orderly remonumentation of the surveys within the province. So I throw that out as a suggestion. Another question I have to ask the minister here: Is there not a process that we have in place? It is my understanding that Linnet was doing, through its land based information systems I think is the appropriate term, aerial surveying of the province. Now I am not sure.

Do we have a process in place where they would have a particular type of a detectable item in the ground for surveying that you may have already done that could be detected from the air so you can have the appropriate surveying done, whether it be some metal rod that would give off a certain signal or something that can be done to assist in the process and continuation of determination of the accurate boundaries? Is there a process that you have in place that may involve Linnet when they were still partner with the province? Mr. Radcliffe: Mr.

Chairman, I smiled when my honourable colleague was asking this question because I, too, asked that same identical question. The general response that I was given, as I give now, is that our technology is not yet precise enough with the Linnet aerial imaging to be able to delineate boundaries with the specificity that we require for survey. In fact, in addition, there is a real need for landowners to be able to have something tangible on the ground.

So, for example, you know, to put it on a very pedestrian basis, if you are building a fence, running a line, you need to know specifically where that line goes, what is yours, what is mine. The Linnet technology that we have right now lends itself, and I have actually used this in some cases for crop spray damage cases-it can give you the imaging of a particular crop in a field or images of a general nature, but it does not yet possess the specificity required for Land Titles needs, for the monumentation needs. Mr.

Reid: Can the minister explain then what role Linnet played in their activities in the contract they had

May 7, 19 97 LEGISLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA 2377 with the province? Were they not involved in a contract that would involve recording all the land-based information that would be required doing aerial photography, surveys, mapping, et cetera, for the province? Is that not the role that they played and maybe perhaps other activities involved with the minister's department? * (16 10 ) Mr. Radcliffe: Yes, in fact, I think there are many, many purposes for which you do aerial cartography. You do it not only to look at the terrain, but the course of rivers, swamps, the elevation, these sorts of things.

I believe a lot of their work went to this particular function. But the actual location of a monument is something very precise and mathematical. I am told it is beyond their technical expertise. It was not used for the location of boundaries. It would show perhaps the site of buildings, but in fact I would not want to determine a boundary based on a general snap from the air- An Honourable Member: If you can have smart card, why can you not have a smart monument? Mr. Radcliffe: That is right-of a Linnet photograph. Mr.

Reid: I am not an engineer, so I am going to give you my thoughts here with respect to the flood, and I do not know ifthere is an opportunity here for you to share resources or whether or not this type of work has already been done, but if you are going to be doing survey work throughout the province and perhaps some of it may be also in the Red River Valley, because my understanding is that part of the survey work also deals with elevations, is it possible, if we do not already have the information relating to the various elevations that would lead the Water Resources branch to be able to determine water flow patterns, that some of that work could be done in conjunction with the Water Resources department- An Honourable Member: Do it under the emergency program.

You get the feds to pay 90 percent. Mr. Reid: It is possible perhaps to get federal participation through this process to look at doing the elevation work for the land in the Red River Valley. If we can have the federal government play a role in that as a preventative measure at the same time, we would have future mapping showing elevations and we could do our monumentation at the same time, and it would perhaps solve several problems at the same time. So I throw that out for the minister. I do not know if he has any comment that he wants to place on that. Mr. Radcliffe: Mr.

Chairman, I would thank my honourable colleague for that. I have made a note of that, and that is a potential for research which we will follow up. Mr. Reid: Can the minister tell me, is the Land Titles or is anywhere in his department still involved with Linnet? Is Linnet finished in its contract with the provincial government? Mr. Radcliffe: Mr. Chairman , I am told by my director that, in fact, there was never any relationship between Land Titles or the Property Registry office and the Linnet corporation. In fact, the nexus, we believe, was through Natural Resources.

There was a sharing of information and a sharing of data upon request from Land Titles Of fice to the Linnet people. They were compiling records for the Natural Resources people as to land use. There is nothing current going on between Land Titles and Linnet by way of a sharing of any information at this point in time. Mr. Maloway: Mr. Chairman, the minister made reference earlier that this problem could be solved with approximately $700 million, I believe he said, and I just wondered how he determined that. What went into determining the cost of $700 million, and how long a period would that be over? Mr.

Radcliffe: Well, as I indicated to the honourable member for Transcona, this was an extrapolation, moving from the amount of service that would be required, assessing the cost, the hourly rates of surveyors' fees and forecasting and broadcasting that across the province of Manitoba. I cautioned and I caution my honourable colleague again that this was, in fact, at best only a forecast of the nature and extent of the problem. So what we have done is, for example, take the need in one particular township and assess the

2378 LEGISLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA May 7, 19 97 nature of the number of missing monuments in that particular area, then extrapolate that across the province. So I caution that these are not hard figures by any means. These are only to give an idea that, in fact, it is a very, very large ticket item. That is all we can say. Mr. Maloway: Well, would the minister table for us today any documentation he has to prove that figure of $700 million? Mr. Radcliffe: Mr.

Chairman, I believe that what was done was the sampling was taken of a particular area of the province, as I have indicated, and then that was applied across the province. That is what I meant, for the edification of the honourable colleague at the table, to extrapolate or extend, move from microcosm to macrocosm. We do not have that document with us, and I undertake that if it is within our possession and we are free and at liberty to disclose it, I will share that with my honourable colleague. Mr. Maloway: I thank the minister for that promise that he will provide us with that documentation.

I would like to ask him whether he has approached the federal government for contributions. Mr. Radcliffe: Not yet. Mr. Maloway: Well, Mr. Chairman, we are in the middle of a federal election. I do not think that there is any better time than a federal election to find more co operative and pliable, receptive federal politicians with chequebooks. They are very close. They are not hard to find at this particular period. The minister has known about this problem for a long, long time, and he is telling me that he has not at this point made any overtures to the federal government for support on this. Mr.

Radcliffe: Mr. Chairman, I would like to advise my honourable colleague that I do sit here corrected, that, in fact, there was an application made by the department for an infrastructure grant and it was turned down. It was declined by those nefarious federal individuals. However, that is not to say that assiduity will not reap its own reward, and I wanted to advise my honourable coll eague that, in fact, I would concur with the proximity of our federal politicians at this point in time because I had the pleasure to be approached by the Honourable Mr.

Axworthy very, very recently to attend at a local community informational evening in our community of River Heights which is a community which we both share, and I was able to bring to that meeting of citizens some of the particulars of our flood control and the information skills which our people were exercising in the province of Manitoba at that point in time.

So I think that those remarks are very appropriate at this point, and perhaps with the spreading of largess which our federal associates seem to be bent upon at this point which we read about in the media, that this could be something in which we could inveigle their attention. Mr. Maloway: Well, when did the minister make this request for an infrastructure grant from the federal government, and when was it declined, and how much was the request for? * (16 20) Mr. Radcliffe: Mr. Chairman, I am pleased to advise my honourable colleague that it was approximately two to three years ago this request was made.

The present staff who are with me today do not have a recollection of the amount that was requested, however I am advised that these records do exist and we will undertake to search for them. If we are capable of recovering that figure, we will certainly share that with my honourable colleague. Mr. Maloway: Will the minister then make a commitment to reapply to the federal government as quickly as possible and use the opportunities provided by the federal election to try to get money from them for this project? Mr. Radcliffe: Mr.

Chair, immediately upon our exiting from the Estimates process, I will address my mind to this and will set in motion a process which will result in the appropriate approach to Mr. Axworthy for consideration of this problem, being that he is the

May 7, 19 97 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2379 senior minister for the province of Manitoba. So that process would be determinative by our exiting from Estimates. Mr. Maloway: I accept that the minister will do what he says, and I am hoping that he will keep us informed on the progress of such overtures to the federal minister. Mr. Chairman, before we move into the Insurance Branch for questioning, I wanted to ask the minister a few more questions on the SO As just to round out the SOAs.

On the previous SOAs, the Companies Office, I did ask questions about the computerization and the fee structure, but I neglected to ask about its projected revenues up to the year 19 99, and perhaps the minister could answer those questions now. Mr. Radcliffe: I am sorry, Mr. Chair, I want to readdress that question. My honourable colleague is asking for projections for income from the Corporations Branch? Mr. Maloway: For the minister, the Companies Office which we dealt with, with Myron Pawlowsky in attendance last evening. Mr.

Radcliffe: We have limited documentation here at the table at this point in time, but I can certainly undertake to give that information to my honourable colleague. Mr. Maloway: I appreciate that commitment from the minister. I would like to ask the minister about the criteria that goes into the selection of an area of the government for an SOA. The minister has three such SOAs. I would like to know what was the master plan here. What was the blueprint? Who selected these areas for SOAs? Who selected these particular areas over others?

I asked the other day whether the minister planned on spinning out any more SOAs in this particular department. He was unable to tell me whether or not there were any more prospects. Well, I invite the minister to re-respond then. Mr. Radcliffe: Mr. Chairman, I am advised that government has sent out an invitation to different branches and areas of government and that the branches themselves have responded to the call to present a feasibility proposal. The feasibility proposal is presented to the Department of Finance. The process there is that it is studied in Finance.

It is reviewed rigorously, I might add, by the Treasury Board to see that the proposal for financial or fiscal stability an area of commonality of interest or function would exist. Then if it clears that threshold, then the business plan is put in place such as has just been done. I would for the record repeat for my honourable colleague's edification that there is no intention for any further SOA activity within the Department of Consumer and Corporate Affairs at this point in time. There are no proposals that we are aware of coming from the branch, any of the departments.

I would point out for my honourable colleague that Vital Statistics which is one of the SOAs was formerly attached to Child and Family Services. Land Titles and PSR were attached to Justice. They were then determined to be fulfilling a registry function, which is what those offices, in fact, essentially do, so they were included into the Consumer and Corporate Affairs department which is the essential function, I guess, of being a regulatory and registry department. Mr. Maloway: Would the minister provide us a copy then of the application for SOAs and a list of the criteria that accompanies such application? Mr.

Radcliffe: I do not know that there is a list of criteria per se. I think this is something that probably is handled, well I know is handled through Finance. So perhaps that is something that probably rests more properly in the purview of Finance, that they would have an overview of what the requirements are for SO As. Mr. Maloway: Seeing that Finance Estimates are now concluded for this year, would the minister on our behalf endeavour to get this information from Finance and forward it on? Mr. Radcliffe: I certainly have no problem approaching the honourable Minister of Finance (Mr.

Stefanson) and requesting an overview of that, to set

2380 LEGISLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA May 7, 19 97 out the parameters of what is an SOA and why and how they are formed. I certainly would be pleased to make that request. * (16 30) Mr. Maloway: Yes, we want some specificity in that because it seems to me there has to be some sort of guidelines and rules for this because one could see little departments within departments asking for SOA status if guidelines were not established. So my assumption is, and I think the minister has already agreed, there is some amalgamating going on within these SOAs.

We have one or two previous sections of a department currently being amalgamated together into an SOA so clearly there is some sort of criteria here at work that I am certainly not familiar with, and it obviously makes sense to the people setting up the SOA. I guess what I would like to know is: Who has the master plan? You know, is there some sort of a neocon bible out there somewhere that the Minister of Finance (Mr. Stefanson) has or Jules Benson has, or somebody? Somebody has got to have the game plan here, you know. Clearly, I have not seen it. I do not know where it is.

No one on this side of the House has seen it, but we see pieces of the quilt. You know, every once in a while, we see a little piece here hanging out and a little piece over there. Then when we show some attention to it, they kind of pull in the edges and hide it a little bit from us. But there is an overall plan here. The Crown Corporations Council has the master plan for the Crowns and their future.

For example, Crown Corporations Council, as the minister probably knows, has a criteria in which they assess each of the Crown corporations as to their current viability, long-term viability and any sort of volatility, and that is part of the rationale that they use, for example, in privatization of the telephone system, that its long-term viability and volatility was such that they felt it was ready for privatization. So we know that these decisions are not being made by individuals. They are being made by somebody with this central blueprint here, this central plan, and who is controlling this.

So we would like to find out who is in charge of this thing and who has a copy of the plan. Now having said that, and the minister has indicated that he will endeavour to get us these criteria, in order to implement the plan, there has to be a two-way street and there has to be some sort of co-operation on the part of the departments to show some initiative and to offer themselves up for this exercise.

So in keeping with some of the plans, I think, of the federal government over the past few years about offering incentives and so on, is there any sort of financial or other kind of incentive program that this government has developed o

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	36-3-41
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	36th 3rd hansardpdf 41.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	a066eb45073ee874cfb0c24a6ebb06fafcacc581

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