Manitoba Hansard — 29 May 1972 (Sitting 94, 29th Legislature, 4th Session)

29-4-94

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2:30 o'clock, Monday, May 29, 1972 Opening Prayer by Mr. Speaker. INTRODU CTION OF GUESTS 2403 MR. SPEAKER: Before we proceed, I should like to direct the attention of honourable members to the gallery where we are pleased to have in the gallery this afternoon as my guests 20 members of the Notre Dame Se nior Citizens Group. We also have 100 students Grade 11 standing of the Daniel Maclntrye School. These students are under the direction of Mr. Rohs. This school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Wellington.

On behalf of all the honourable members I welcome you here today. Presenting Petitions; Reading and Receiving Petitions. The Honourable Member for Radisson. PRESENTING PETITIONS MR, HARRY SHAFBANSKY (Radisson): Mr. Speaker , I beg to present the petition of Terrence , Frederick, James and others praying for the passing of

an Act to incorporate the Transcona Country Club. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Crescentwood. MR. CY GONICK (Crescentwood): Mr. Speaker , I beg to present the petition of Ea rl Duncan and others , praying for the passing of

an Act to incorporate the Native Alcoholism Council of Manitoba. MR . SPEAKER: Presenting Reports by Stan ding and Special Committees; Ministerial Statements and Tabling dfReports . The Honourable Attorney-General. HON. A, H, MACKLING, Q.C. (Attorney-General)(St. James): Mr. Speaker , I would like to table the 1971 Proceedings of the 53rd Annual Meeting of the Conference of Commission ers on the Uniformity of Legislation in Cana da, which was held in Jasper , Alberta, during the month of August 71 . MR. SPEAKER: Notices of Motion; Introduction of Bills; Oral Questions. The Honour able Leader of the Opposition.

ORAL QUESTION PERIOD MR . SIDNEY SPIVAK, Q. C. (Leader of the Op position) (River Heights): Sir, I have a question of the Minister of Hea lth and Social Development. I wonder if he can ihdicate ap proximatel y how many drug or alcohol related cases are han dled by General, Misericordia and St. Boniface Hospitals. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Hea lth and Social Development. HON. RENE E. TO UPIN (Minister of Heal th and Social Development)(Spr ingfield): No I can 't, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPIVAK: Mr. Speaker , I have another question for the Minister of Hea lth and Social Development.

I wonder whether he can indicate whether his departme nt discussed the possi bility of the old Grace Hospital being used as a drug addiction centre with any members of the Federal Government and Federal Offices who are involved in the drug field. MR . TO UPIN: Mr. Speaker, we have discussed this program with many individuals , different professions on the Provincial and Federal field. MR .

SPIV AK: I wonder if the Minister of Hea lth and Social Development can confirm that the Federal Government has designated a specific office and area for drug addiction to be handled with respect particularly to the use of methadone as a substitute for heroin? MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. The Honourable Member for Thompson. MR . JO SEPH P. BOROWSKI (Thompson): Mr. Speaker , I have a question to the same Minister. Could he inform the House of the extent of the renovation and replacement at Headi ngley Jail, and the cost of the renovation or replacement, and also who made the estimate ? MR .

SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Heal th. MR. TO UPIN: Mr. Speaker , I believe the Honourable Member for Thompson is making reference to the damage caused by the recent riot at Headi ngley, and the estimated damage

2404 May 29, 1972 (MR. TO UPIN cont'd) •••• was $4,0 00, and this was related to me by staff at the Headi ngley Jail. MR. BOROWSKI: A question to the First Minister, Mr. Speaker . Could the Premier indicate when charges will be laid against the prisoners who were responsible for the burning and wrecking of the cells at Headingley? HON . EDWARD SCHREYER (Premier)(Rossmere): Mr.

Speaker, I have been advised that upon the re ceipt of reports from those on the scene, and those that were requested to carry out investigati on, that upon receipt of reports thereo f, that the Attorney-General's Departmen t will have to consider the mann er and the extent to which charges are laid, MR. BOROWSKI: A question for the Attorney-General, Mr. Speaker. In view of all that has transpir ed, is the Attorney-General considering replacing Mr. Cox as Superintenden t at Headingley? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. MR. MACKLING: Mr.

Speaker, the administration for the Headingl ey Institution does not fall under the Attorney-General's Departmen t , but if it did, I wouldn't on the basis of the incident that has occurred make any recommendation that he be removed. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Lea der of the Opposition. MR. SPIV AK: Mr. Speaker , my question is to the Minister of Health and Social De velopment. I wonder whether he can indicate whether there was any official discussion with the medical profession with respect to the use of Grace Hospital for an alcohol and drug addiction centre ? MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health.

MR. TOUPIN: Mr. Speaker , as the Honourable Lea der of the Official Opposition is well aware there are members of the medical profession working within the Department of Health and Social Development , and the recommendation for the use of the old Grace Hospital was mainl y made on the part of officials within the Department of Health and Social Develop ment and/or the Manitoba Health Services Commission, and equally by consulting many people including members of the medical profession. MR. SPIVAK: Another question to the Minister of Health and Social Development.

Could he indicate whether his depart ment met with the Chief of Police to dis.cuss the use of the old Grace Hospital as an alcohol and drug addiction . • • MR. SPEAKER: Order please. I do believe that we are transg ressing our procedures and getting into a detail ed discussion back and forth with the Minister and the Honourable Leader of the Opposition. I have allowed I think six questions on this particular subject at the present time and it's getting to be a debate. I don't think I should allow any more. Does the Honourable Leader of the Opposition wish to place another question? MR. SPIVAK: Well, Mr.

Speaker , I have one question related to the field. I do not believe that I am limited , Sir , by the number of questions I can ask with respect to this field. I would like the Minister of Health and Social Development to indicate whether he personally has met with members of the medical profession officially and/or with the Chief of Police dealing with the use of Grace Hospital for • • • MR, SPEAKER: Order please. Order please. I think I did indicate the latitude I was going to allow. The Honourable Member is startin g a debat e. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Garry, MR. L.

R. (BUD) SHERMAN (Fort Ga rry): Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to direct a question to the Honourable the Attorney-General and ask him if he can advise the House whether he has knowledge of any allegations of a possible misappropriation of funds in connection with brush clearing contracts in the Nelson House area, and whether any official investigation is under way. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-GeneraL MR. MACKLING: Mr.

Speaker , this is the first time I have heard any allegations of any wrong doing in the area that he suggests, and I'm surprised that if there were any sub stance to these al legations I should not have heard earlier. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Charleswood. MR. ARTHUR MOUG (Charleswood): Mr. Speaker , I would like to direct a question to the Minister responsible for Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation, Was the position for a Claims Manager for the Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation which was advertised Friday, May 26, 1972, Toronto Globe and Mail, advert ised in the local papers?

May 29, 1972 2405 MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Municipal Affairs. HON. HOWARD R. PAWLEY (Minister of Municipal Affairs)(Selkirk): . I wouldn't be able to answer that offhand. I expect it was though as that's the policy of the corporation, MR . SPEAKER : Orders of the Day, The Honourable Member for Brandon West, MR . EDWARD McGILL (Brz.ndon West): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Honourable the Minister of Urban Affairs.

Can the Minister tell the House if there has been a meeting held within the last few weeks with representatives of his department and federal officials in respect to urban renewal problems in the Province of Manitoba. MR . SPEAKER: Order of the Day, The Honourable Minister of Finance. HON. SAUL CHERNIACK, Q. C. (Minister of Finance)(St. Johns): Mr. Speaker, we have so many ongoing discussions with the Department for Urban Affairs in Ottawa, I don't want to answer that question categorically , but he used the word "meeting".

Well even then, I would have to be cautious because my deputy minister was in Quebec City last week and he may have met with certain officials of the Federal Government. There are ongoing discussions of course. MR . McGILL : Mr. Speaker, by way of explanation the meeting with the province was referred to by Mr. Basford at the Quebec Meeting. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Would the honourable member place his question. MR . McGILL : A supplementary question. If such a meeting were held, were there rep resentatives of urban government. MR . SPEAKER : Hypothetical. The Honourable Minister of Finance, MR .

CHERNIACK : May I say that there was a specific meeting held with representatives of Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation dealing with federal proposals under the National, for changes under the National Housing Act, Maybe that's what Mr. Basford was discussing, and there was such a meeting. Between the Federal and Provincial Government representatives. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Souris-Killarney. MR . EARL McKELLAR (Souris-Killarney): Mr. ·speaker, I'd like to direct a question to the First Minister.

Will there be an extension of the deadline of May 31st for the improvements of senior citizens homes, on that policy ? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR . SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, with respect to the completion of projects already started, the answer is yes; but with respect to the accepting of applications that came in after the dead line and the work which would come after the deadline , the answer is no, However, considera tion is being given to the continuation, or the re-continuation I should say, of the program the next fall and winter. MR . SPEAKER : The Honourable Member for Thompson. MR .

BOROWSKI: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Attorney-General. Could he indicate why a full page ad was put in Saturday's paper listing liquor prices, and the total cost of this program of updating the liquor prices in Manitoba ? MR . SPEAKER : The Honourable Attorney-General, MR. MACKLING : Mr.

Chairman, I would have to take as notice that part of the question asking for the cost of this sort of .communication, but the rationale for this form of communi cation was simply this, that as a result of the increase in provincial taxation, on alcoholic beverage as announced, effective June 1st, the prices on a great number of the products marketed does increase.

However, in the interval the distillers in Canada have indicated that they intend to increase their prices, We have therefore wanted, not to publish the list of prices which ordinarily is very exhaustive and costs a considerable amount of money to print, and we have foregone this, and advertised in a considerable way what the prices will be, effective June 1st. And I might say, Mr. Speaker , that in respect to the distillers' prices we are, the Liquor Control Commission is trying to get a reconsideration on the part of the distillers as to that price increase, MR .

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Swan River, MR . JAMES H. BILTON (Swan River): Mr. Speaker, on the same subject, I wonder if the Attorney-General could advise the House as to whether or not this information is being extended to the rural people through the weekly press ? MR . SPEAKER : The Honourable Attorney-General. MR . MACKLING: Mr. Speaker, I want to assure all members of the House, particularly the Honourable Member from Swan River, that the interests of the weekly newspapers are al ways considered, and I am sure that the Liquor Control Commission Board had considered

2406 May 29, 1972 ' (MR . MACKLING cont'd) ••••• carefully the question of how to provide for immediate in- formation, recognizing that there may have to be further information disclosed later on in the f year, and we want to do it at the minimum of public expense. MR. , BILTON: I wonder if the Honourable Minister would look into the matter on behalf of the people of rural Manitoba ? MR. , MACKLING: Mr. Speaker, I want to assure the Honourable Member from Swan River that the observations made in this Chamber are never overlooked by government boards 1 and agencies.

MR. , SPEAKER : The Honourable Member for Rhineland. MR. , JACOB M, FROESE (Rhineland): Mr, Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the Honourable the Minister of Agriculture. Could the Honourable the Minister indicate to the House whether the government has received any assurance that the 2, 000 tank cars that are I being built for the railways will be used for the purpose of shipping grain ? 1 MR. , SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. HON, SAMUEL USKIW (Minister of Agriculture (Lac du Bonnet): Mr.

Speaker, we have not been made privy to the arrangements that were entered into by the Government of Canada with the railways . MR. , SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Souris- Killarney. The Honourable Member for Rhineland, MR. , FROESE : Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. Would the Honourable Minister try to get the information for us ? MR. . USKIW: Well I think, Mr. Speaker, that it's very obvious that members wanting that information can get it for themselves, I am sure that it's no secret, MR. , SPEAKER : The Honourable Member for Souris-K illarn-ey. MR. . McKELLAR : Mr .

Speaker, I'd like to direct a question to the Attorney-General re garding the problem of liquor on the 1st of June, liquor tax. Will the vendors have to pay the tax on the first day of June on all stock in trade ? MR. . SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General.

MR. , MACKLING: I'm not sure of the technique involved, I assume that inventories are taken of the stock but I would have to take it - I am assured by the Minister who would really be responsible , and perhaps I should have deferred it to him , that the inventory is taken by the sales tax people as at the 1st of June, and then the tax is imposed on all that stock as it's sold, MR. , SPEAKER : The Honourable Member for Emerson, MR , GABRIEL GffiARD (Emerson): I would like to direct a question to the Honourable Minister of Colleges and Universities, I wonder if he could advise us as to why the SACU tests have been dis continued, and if there is a replacement for this kind of evaluation ?

MR. . SPEAKER : The Honourable Minister of Universities and Colleges, HON, SAUL A, MILLER (Minister of Colleges and Universities) (Seven Oaks): The SACU _. • tests were eliminated because the universities were not using them; indicated that they would • not use them, and other provinces are following suit. MR. , GffiARD: Another question of the same Minister . There is therefore no replace ment for this kind of test ? MR. , MILLER: Not at the present time, Mr, Speaker. The students are judged by the high schools which they attend, and are recommended for entry into the university.

The university finds this agreeable and acceptable, · MR . GffiARD: I would like to direct a question to the Honourable Minister of Youth and Education. I wonder if he can advise the House as to what approximately, what proportion of the $50. 00 rebate will be paid to urban munic ipalities ? MR. , SPEAKER : The Honourable Minister of Education. HON, BEN HANUSCHAK (Minister of Edu cation) (Burrows): I believe, Mr. Speaker, this is about the third time that this question has been asked, but it will be in proportion to the number of claimants and the education tax paid by them.

MR. , SPEAKER : The Honourable Minister of Agriculture, MR. . USKIW: Mr. Speaker, on May 5th the Member for Rhineland put a question to myself in my absence, as to whether or not the MACC credit policy being a single agency credit system, whether that was in fact a deterrent to farmers wishing to obtain their finances through MACC. I simply want to indicate that the impression that we operate only a single agency system is erroneous, We provide a full line of credit through the MACC and the credit union system and the banks,

May 29, 1972 2407 1\ffi, SPEAKER : The Honourable Leader of the OppOsition. 1\ffi, SPIVAK: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the First Minister in the absence of the Minister of Industry and Commerce. In view of the publication of a letter dated February 21st of a secretary resigning from the Manitoba Development CorpOration relating to a psycho-drama therapy session, and in view of the contradiction of that evidence with the statements presented by Dr. Brian t is the government intending to investigate this matter and repOrt to the House. 1\ffi, SPEAKER : The Honourable First Minister. 1\ffi, SCHREYER : Mr.

Speaker , the indication given by Dr. Brian t a t the Sta nding Com mittee meeting, plus the fact that the official of the Canadian Union of Public Employees has also indicated that the entire matter was of such a kind that there was no cause for dissatisfac tion, or complaint. There were some who had some sense of dissatisfactio n, in respect to that particular kind of industrial personnel relations counselling, or whatever one wishes to call it , but I can say with , I can say with finality on the matt er , Mr.

Speaker , that I have not been advised by anyone in a pOSition of respOnsibility in the Canadian Union of Public Employees tha t there was any sense of dissatlsfaction with the way in which the alleged episode took place. 1\ffi, SPIVAK: A supplementary question to the First Minister. I wonder if he can in dicate whether any member of the Cabinet has seen the individual evaluation repOrts made after the psycho-drama therapy session was conducted. 1\ffi, SPEAKER: Order please. I don't see that it's re levant to our procedure whether a member of Cabinet has seen something or not.

That is not german e for this Assembly. The Honourable Leader of the OppOsition. 1\ffi, SPIV AK: I wonder if the First Minister could indicate whether he has in his pOS session, or if the government has in their pOSsession, the individual evaluation repOrts pro duced after the psycho-drama therapy session. 1\ffi. SPEAKER : The Honourable First Minister. 1\ffi, SCHRE YER: Mr.

Speaker , I have already said that had any elected officer in the Canadian Union of Public Employees in a pOSition of respOnsibility seen fit to make a complaint to the government in this regard, we would have taken the matter under consideration. But no such complaint , nor sense of dissatisfaction, was communicated to the government. 1\ffi, SPIVAK: I wonder if the First Minister could indicate if a request by Or der for Return or Address for Papers was filed in the House, whether the government is prepared to produce such • • • 1\ffi, SPEAKER : Ord er please. Order please.

Question is hypOthetical, The Honour able Member for Emerson. 1\ffi. GIRARD: I'd like to direct another question to the Honourable Minister of Youth and Education. I wonder if he could advise us as to how many members are on the staff of the Planning and Research Br anch of the Department ? 1\ffi, SPEAKER : The Honourable Minister of Education, 1\ffi, HANUSCHAK: I be lieve, Mr.

Speaker , the honourable member is well aware that the Education Estimates will be coming up, and I th ink it would be far more appropriate for him to ask that question then when I'll have all the statistics and data in front of me, 1\ffi. SPEAKER: The Attorney-General. 1\ffi, MACKLING: Mr. Speaker , I just want to correct what I had said earlier. I was not aware of any investigation in or about Nelson House, but I have now received a note indicating that in fact there has been communication with my departmen t and that investigation has been started.

The Thompson Deta chment of the RC MP have conducted the enquiry that is being made. I have no repOrt yet. 1\ffi, SPEAKER : The Honourable Member for Emerson. 1\ffi. GIRARD: I'd like to direct another question to the Minister of Youth and Education. I wonder if he could advise the people of Manitoba as to whether the services of the Winnipeg Child Clinic is a service available to all Manitobans , or only to the people of Winnipeg ? 1\ffi, SPEAKER : The Honourable Minister of Education. 1\ffi, HANUSCHAK: The services of the Child Development Services Bra nch, Mr.

Speaker , are available to the entire Province of Manitoba. 1\ffi, SPEAKER : The Honourable Lea der of the OppOsition. 1\ffi, SPIVAK: I wonder if the First Minister or the Minister of Finance could indicate whether they held a meeting with members of the Unicity Council to discuss the equalization payments in the form that they'll be made to the taxpayers in the City of Winnipeg.

2408 MR. SPEAKER : The Honourable Mi nister of Fi nance; MR. CHERNIACK: Yes, Mr. Speaker. May 29, 1972 MR. SPIVAK : A supplementary question, I wonder if the Minister of Fi nance could now indicate the formula to be applied. MR. CHERNIACK: No, Mr, Speaker. MR. SPEAKER : The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. SPIVAK: I wonder if the Minister of Fi nance can indicate the time when we can ex- pect the announcement to be made. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Mi nister of Finance. MR. CHERNIACK : I said soon, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MRS. INEZ TRUEMAN (Fort Rouge) : Mr.

Speaker, I have a question for the Honourable First Minister. In view of the fact that seven of the female employees of MDF found the psycho-drama session, or whatever you wish to call them, so disturbing and degrading that they res igned from their positions • • • MR. SPEAKER : Order please. Order please. I would like to caution all members that their preface must not be argumentative. I'm having difficulty because there 's so much of it going on. But I should like to again indicate that it is not a form of procedure to have a question prefaced by an argument.

So would all members take note and explain, or make their questions clear , concise and terse. The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge, MRS, TRUEMAN: Mr. Speaker, my question for the Fi rst Minister is would the govern ment ensure that this type of personnel practice is no longer undertaken within the Manitoba Civil Service • . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister . MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker , I am advised that the particular form of counselling that took place is not uncommon in industrial rel ations circles .

I am also advised that there is some difference of opinion as to the effi cacy of that particular form of industrial personnel relations counselling, etc. But I have to adv ise the honourable lady again that so far as this is a matter of internal personnel relations, and insofar as no grievance was communicated to the govern ment through the proper channels, that I have nothing more to say on the matter.

I believe that the Honourable the Minister of Labour, had there been any infringement of labour law, would have certa inly been apprised of the matter , and I do not believe that he was, nor did I receive any communication from the Canadian Union of Public Employees expressing negative sentiment with respect to that particular episode. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Point Douglas. MR, DONALD MALINOWSKI (Point Douglas) : Mr. Speaker, before the Orders of the Day I would like to make a statement by the leave of the House. MR. SPEAKER: Agreed ? (Ag reed) . MR. MALINOWSKI: Thank you. Mr.

Speaker, I wish to express my words of thanks to t all the members of the House for their tho ughtfulness in sending me words of well wishes during my illness and also I want to make a suggestion to members, including the Press gallery, that if they wish to get a ride to Kenora in the future, please let me know at least one day ahead, Thank you. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Em erson, MR . GIRARD: I'd like to direct a question to the Minister of Youth and Education. In view of the Core Report, will there be any changes next year with accreditation of high school courses in Manitoba ? MR.

SPEAKER : The Honourable Minister of Education, MR . HANUSCHAK: I believe the honourable member is aware that the Core Report , to which I think he is referring, is the interim report, because that is the only one that is in our hands, and no change will be made on the strength of the interim report. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Le ader of the Opposition. MR. SPIVAK : I have a question for the Minister of Public Works. I wonder whether he can indicate whether any plans or specifications have been drawn for the renovation of the old Grace Hospital, MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Mi nister of Public Works. HON.

RUSSELL DOERN (Minister of Public Works)(Elmwood): Mr. SpeakT, we are working on such plans, yes.

May 29, 1972 2409 MR. SPIVAK: I wonder if the Minister of Public Works would indicate approximately, or the approximate time when the plans will be completed. MR. DOERN: In due course, Mr, Speaker. MR. SPIVAK: I wonder if the Minister of Public Works can indicate whether anyone from the medical profession will be in consultation with the department with respect to the renovation. MR. DOERN: I'm sorry, Mr. Speaker, but I did not hear the last part of the honourable member's question. MR .

SPIVAK: I wonder if the Minister of Public Works can indicate whether any members of the medical profession will be consulted in the finalization of the working drawings and plans for alteration of the old Grace Hospital. MR, DOERN: Mr, Speaker, I believe that it's basically an architectural and engineering problem but I'm sure that where required, members of the medical profession will be consulted. MR, SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition has had two supplementaries on that one, to that Minister. The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR.

SPIVAK: I have another question for the Minister of Public Works. I wonder whether he can indicate whether any recommendations have been forwarded to his department for the finalization of plans and specifications, recommendations to the Minister of Health and Social Development's Department have been forwarded to him for the finalization of plans and specifi cations for the old Grace Hospital? MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Order please. I am afraid I am going to have to take the issue of not allowing the fourth question.

I do believe that we have aired, or ventilated, this particular question in about as many forms as possible, and if the Honourable Leader of the Opposition insists he'll have to find another time to question it or another form, but not during the Oral Question Period. Orders of the Day. The Honourable Member for Rhine land, MR. FROESE: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to address a question to the Minister of Labour. Could he inform the House whether he has had any adverse reactions to his proposed, or his announced proposal, to increase the minimum wage? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour. HON.

RUSSELL PAULLEY (Minister of Labour)(Transcona): Mr. Speaker, if I may say I'm deeply disturbed because I have had acceptance on all sides. ORDERS OF THE DAY - ORDERS FOR RETURN MR . SPEAKER: Orders of the Day, Orders for Return, The Honourable Member for Charleswood. MR . MOUG: Mr.

Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Minnedosa; THAT an Order of the House do issue for a Return showing: 1, The number of purchases by the Manitoba Housing and Renewal Cor poration within Greater Winnipeg Area and the value since July 15, 1969, 2, As above outside Greater Winnipeg Area. 3, Which Minister of the Manitoba Government negotiated the above purchases, 4, Total value of these purchases within Greater Winnipeg Area and rural Manitoba. 5, Were any brokerage fees paid by Manitoba Housing and Renewal Corporation or by the vendor at the direction of Manitoba Housing and Renewal Corporation, 6, Total amount of brokerage fees that were paid by Manitoba Housing and Renewal Corporation or directed to be paid by the vendor at the direction of the Manitoba Housing and Renewal Corporation or its agents.

MR . SPEAKER presented the motion, MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Municipal Affairs. MR. PAWLEY: ••• Mr. Speaker, in a position to accept this with some clarification required from the Honourable Member for Charleswood in his reference to purchases. It is unclear as to whether or not his reference is to land and/or buildings and land, or what his reference is, MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Charleswood, briefly. MR , MOUG: Land, and/or land and buildings. MR, PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker, it appears that the Honourable Member for Charleswood insofar as the use of purchases, and he eliminates all other purchases by the Manitoba Housing and Renewal Corporation outside of the purchase by the corporation of land. I question whether

-- - 2410 May 29, 1972 (MR., PAWLEY cont'd) • or not the wording is correct if the reference is to the awarding of- proposal calls because certainly that is not a purchase. With the understanding that the reference is to land I'd be prepared - land only, I'd be prepared to accept the entire Order for Return at this time. But certainly the word is not correct, purchases, if it's making reference to the proposal calls as such. -I might say, Mr. Speaker, in any event the proposal calls are public documents and the honourable member should have no difficulty in that regard.

If he is restricting his comments to land, purchase of land, then I can accept the Order for Return as it reads at the present time. MR . SPEAKER: Agreed? (Agreed) The Honourable Member for Charleswood. MR . MOUG: Could I have that transferred for debate, please? MR . SPEAKER: Agreed?' (Agreed). The Honourable Minister of Finance. MR . CHERNIACK: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable the Com missioller of Northern Affairs, that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. MR .

SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried and the House resolved itself into a Committee of Supply with the Honourable Member for Logan in the Chair. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY MR. CHAffiMAN: I would refer honourable members to Page 14 Commissioner of Northern Affairs. The Honourable Member for Charleswood. Order please. The Honourable Member for Charleswood. MR . MOUG: With your permission, and leave of the House, I'd like to make a short comment in regards to Friday.

I made two statements, one of them made reference to the .Minister of, the now Minister of Thompson, referring to the people in this side of the House pimping for the insurance industry, and I would ask you, Sir, to look on Page 2078 June 22/71 where he's quoted in there, the Tribune of Thursday, August 6, 1970 reads as follows: "In an interview with Mr. Borowski he was, if anything, more blistering than he had been in the Legislature before he was suspended, when he was told by the newsmen his continued absence from the House might cause an election.

He said the Conservatives and the insurance parasites have been i.obbying for an election, etc, etc," MR . CHAffiMAN: The Honourable Minister of Labour. MR . PAULLEY: Mr. Chairman, on a point of order ••• if this is the appropriate time for my honourable friend to raise this question. As I understand it, Sir, you indicated we were dealing with the Estimates of the Department of Northern Affairs. If my honourable friend has a grievance, then I suggest it should be handled at the appropriate time, which in my humble opinion is not now. MR. CHAffiMAN: The Honourable Member for Morris. t • MR .

WARNER H, JOR GENSON (Morris): Mr. Chairman, a question of privilege can be raised at any time and preferably, the earlier the better. --(Interjection): It is in the House right now --(Interjection)-- question of privilege can be raised at any time, and that's what my honourable friend is doing, Friends opposite were very anxious to have him withdraw a statement that he said was not made.

He is attempting to justify the position that he took when last this committee met by reading extracts from the newspaper, and from Hansard which sub stantiated the position that he took at that time, I know my honourable friend the House Leader is not anxious to hear this, but I think that the rules provide that my honourable friend from Charleswood does have the right to raise this as a question of privilege at this time, and clea1 the matter up once and for all. · MR . PAULLEY: Mr.

Chairman, with all due respect to the expertise for the Honourable Member for Morris, I believe that the rules are reasonably clear that matter of privileges are undertaken in the House itself and not in the Committee. We are now considering the Estimates as announced by the Honourable the Chairman of the Committee dealing with Northern Affairs. MR , CHAffiMAN: I think the point is well t:iken.

I think if the honourable member will check, Order, please • • • MR , MOUG: ••• permission, Sir, and by leave of the House, and it was without objection --(Interjection)-- that I asked by leave of the House --(Interje ction)-- Thank you, thank you. MR , CHAmMAN: Leave granted? (Agreed). The Honourable Member for Charleswood, l

May 29, 1972 2411 MR . MOUG: As I was saying, the Member for Thompson was quoted by the press as say ing Conservatives and the insurance parasites have been lobbying for an election, so we are going to have an election in any event. We were going to be defeated this morning on Bill 56, and that is what I based my comment on on Friday, Mr. Chairman, and if there's any retraction to be made after that most certainly I will make it. MR . BOROWSKI: Mr. Chairman, since my name was mentioned I think ••• MR . CHAffiMAN: Order. Order, please. Does the honourable member have leave? (Agreed) MR . BOROWSKI: Mr.

Chairman, I understand that the Member for Charleswood was quoting me. I was speaking outside the House. And I think that should be clear on the record. I'm not -- a statement was made, and I wasn't here on Friday so I don't know the debate that went on, but I did make that statement outside the House on more than one occasion, Mr. Chairman, I make no apologies for it, But I think that the question is being debated whether it was made in here or outside the House. And the other point that was raised, Mr.

Chairman, that I -- according to the press, reading the press in Thompson over the weekend -- that I had accused the members of the insurance industry of pimping for the insurance, and that is not correct, I believe I said it appeared like the members of the Opposition, not the insurance industry, and that is a matter of record too. MR . CHAffiMAN: Order, please. The honourable members have made their points. Page 14. Resolution 40 (a). The ••• HON, RON McBRYDE (Commissioner of Northern Affairs) (The Pas): Mr. Chairman, I wonder if I might move into the front row and have my deputy come into the Chamber ?

MR , CHAffiMAN: Order, please. MR . JORGENSON: Mr. Chairman, on a point of order. I think that the rule provides that the Minister is permitted to go to a front row desk when the first item of his Estimates has been passed, but I think that the normal practice is to wait until the first item has been passed before he has the opportunity of bringing his deputy in. MR . McBRYDE: That's quite acceptable, Mr. Chairman. MR . CHAffiMAN: Just a moment until we check the rules here, MR , McBRYDE: Mr. Speaker, we are dealing with the Estimates . MR , CHAffiMAN: Order, please.

Let's just let me determine the procedure here before we start. MR . PAULLEY: Mr. Chairman, I wonder if I may make a comment on the remark made by my honourable friend from Morris. I believe technically he is correct, although the Estimates as I review them doesn't make precise reference to a Minister of Northern Com mission. I believe theoretically he's perfectly correct that there should be a statement made by the Honourable the Minister in charge of this particular jurisdiction.

I don't think it would be amiss if the Honourable Minister, Northern Commissioner made a statement and then had some replies to his general statement and then call in his staff. I think this would facilitate the general principle of the rules of the House. MR , CHAIRMAN: I would refer honourable members to the copy that we have here on Page 21, Item 8 of

Section 64 which --(I nterjection) -- 65 (8): "When departmental estimates are being presented by the Minister in Committee of Supply, such officials of the departme nt as required by the Minister may be admitted to the Legislative Chamber, and shall be permitted to sit at a table placed on the floor of the House in front of the Minister after the first item. " And then in brackets (Minister's salary) is passed, While in Committee of Supply the Minister presenting his Estimates shall be permitted to speak from a place in the front row of the benches." MR .

PAULLEY: ••• general principle of that on Page 14 we come to the Commissioner of Northern Affairs. I think in the general principle as suggested by the Honourable Member from Morris let us construe that there was at the time of the compiling of the Estimates a Minister for ..• Let him go ahead that way. MR . CHAffiMAN: The Honour ab le Minister - The Commissioner of Northern Affairs, MR . McBRYDE: Mr. Chairman, I would like to begin my remarks by briefly quoting the introduction, or the

preamble of The Northern Affairs Act, to give members a clear idea of what the Act is about and what the Minister's responsibilities are. ''Whereas the Government of Manitoba desires to encourage development of northern

2412 May 29, 1972 (:MR.

McBRYDE cont'd) ••••• Manitoba and its closer integration with the more settled and developed areas of the province; and "Whereas it is deemed expedient to provide for the appointment of a member of the Executive Council as Commissioner of Northern Affairs to co-ordina te the activities of all departments of the Executive Government of the Province and any agency of the Crown for the purpose of encouraging the development of northern Manitoba; and "Whereas it is deemed expedient that the Commissioner of Northern Affairs be authorized to enter into agreements on behalf of the Government of Manitoba with any persons, firm, municipality, local government districts, or corporation, on such terms and conditions as the Lieutenant-Governor-in-Council may approve for the purpose of the establishment or expansion of industry, or of providing, maintaining or improving services for the benefit of the inhabitants of any community in northern Manitoba; and ''Whereas it is deemed desirable to assist local communities in northern Manitoba in their efforts in planning, organizing, developing, carrying out and administering, and financing pro grams to provide local services for the amenity of the inhabitants thereof.

" As the

summary pointed out the main objectives of the Northern Affairs Commission is to act as a municipal government on behalf of the communities in the provision of capital and limited maintenance services and to assist community councils and community committees in the process of managing their own community affairs, In order to accomplish this, Mr. Chairman, the Commis sioner of Northern Affairs has two branches in his department, the Operations Branch and the Community Development Branch.

The Operations Branch - I would like to define briefly what the function of the Operations Branch is, The original role of the Operations Branch was the initiation and supervision of capital projects, The role has increased to include maintenance of these services, and ex panded to include additional services, or incumbent services, with an upgraded standard, Most communities have grown at random with no organization, With development there is demanded orderly growth. Therefore there is need for community planning. The Community Develop ment section, Mr.

Chairman, the objectives of the objections of the Community Development

section is to assist in developing local self -government. It assists people to become organized for planning and action, to become informed in matters important to them, to become knowledgeable and skilled in the decision-making and problem-solving process, and become determined to influence and participate in the decisions affecting their lives. Mr.

Chairman, you'll notice in the Estimates there is presently included under the Commissioner of Northern Affairs' Estimates also funds for The Pas Special Area Agreement in the form of the Information Communication Program, The purpose of the Information Communication Program is to provide the necessary base for the social adjustment of the people in The Pas Special Area and for the implementation of other programs and activities in The Pas Special Area. Mr.

Speaker, before I proceed into the detail of these Estimates, I would just like to make a brief comment on the excellent work done by the two previous members of the Executive Council who held responsibility as Commissioner of Northern Affairs, the present member for Inkster had a considerable impact by clarifying and improving the Act to make sure that there was an establishment of independent and democratically run community councils withh the Northern Affairs area.

The most recent previous Commissioner, the Minister of Municipal Affairs, also did an excellent job when he was Commissioner, and especially in the area of being responsive and able to understand the problems of communities and being able to understand how they saw their problems, and therefore how best to deal with the problems of the isolated communities that fall under the jurisdiction of the Commissioner of Northern Affairs. I would also, Mr. Chairman, like to pay tribute to the excellent staff that the Commis sioner has at his disposal. The Deputy Commissioner and Mr.

Phil Thompson who is one of those deputies who is able to get out of the office and do considerable travelling and work in the communities that come under the Northern Affairs area. I would also like to give recognition to the directors, to Mr. Lionel Kuran who's the Director of the Operations Section, and to Mr. Joe Dufour, the Director of the Community Development section. Both of these gentlemen are doing an excellent job in their areas of the operation. I would also like, Mr. Chairman, to pay some tribute to the staff who are the ones who

May 29 , 1972 2413 (MR. McBRYDE cont'd) •••.• are at the field level, and who really have effect and influence on what happens in the communities, the isolated communities of northern Manitoba. Now, Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct the members directly to the Estimates on Page 14. The members will notice the Estimate for last year, the budget for last year for the Commissioner of Northern Affairs was $1, 251, 700, 00. This year the estimate is $2, 0 95, 400. 00. The major increase comes in two areas of the Estimates, Mr. Chairman.

The Human Development Program, No. (e), as listed on Page 14, has increased from $1 75 , 500 to $250 , 700,00. The largest increase is in the Shared Community Projects

section of the Estimates, and the increase there is from $348, 700 to $1,02 4, 700 ,0 0. Dealing directly, Mr. Speaker, with the salary section,

Section (a), the members will note an increase in salaries, The reason for this increase, Mr, Speaker, is with the increase in staff under the direction of the Commissioner of Northern Affairs, The staff has been in creased by ten, Mr. Chairman, and the staff has been reduced by four, for a net gain of six staff members under the direction of the Commissioner of Northern Affairs. The reduction of four was the transfer of three community development officers and one community education officer to The Pas Information Communication Program, The reason for the increases, Mr.

Chairman, is that in past years the Departments of Mines, Resources and Environmental Management and Municipal Mfairs provided accounting services for the Northern Affairs Program. The Northern Affairs Program has reached a stage in its development where it is felt an autonomous accounting function is required.

Pro vision has been made for an accountant and an accounting clerk to handle this aspect of the administration, The second reason for the increase in staff was that previous to this year Northern Affairs has relied on, for planning assistance in communities, from the Municipal Planning Division of the Department of Municipal Affairs.

However workload pressure on this division, plus increased need for northern community planning input, has necessitated the establishment of a specialized planning group to be located physically within the existing municipal Planning Division of Municipal Affairs, and who will come under the administrative direction of the Commissioner of Northern Affairs. The balance of the increase, Mr. Speaker, is the increase in administrative staff be cause of the increased amount of operations, The Item (b), Mr. Speaker, Other Expenditures: you will note there is a fairly normal percentage increase in that particular item.

That item covers normal administrative costs such as rentals and postage, those type of items, The Operations

Section (

c) in the Estimates: an increase of 7.4 percent, and this is a similar normal increase in the cost of the operations administrative expenditures. Item (d), the Community Development Program: there has been hardly any change in the estimate in that regard. Item (e), Mr. Chairman, the Human Development Program, has had an increase, and one of the more significant increases within the Commission. The main reason for the increase in the Estimate for the Human Development Program- there are four reasons for this increase, Mr.

Chairman, There is the expansion of the Native Broadcast Activity from Thompson to Flin Flon and Dauphin; there is an increase for the travel costs of the Northern Association of Community Council Conferences; and there is a general increase in spending on items that relate specifically to the communities, such as community workshop and seminars. The other increase in this

section is due to the population increase and the Northern Affairs Commission gives a $2. 00 per capita grant and with the population increase this amount has increased as well, While I'm on the subject of the native broadcasts, Mr. Chairman, maybe I could just briefly read from a press clipping in regard to the Northern Native Broadcast Program; You might recall that this appeared on national TV not too long ago, Mr. Chairman.

This is from The Thompson Citizen of May 3rd, 1972: "A radio has become as important a part of northern Manitoba trappers' gear this year as his traps, according to the Native Communication Corpo ration manager Murray McKenzie, who says an estimated 20, 000 Cree speaking people have i:Jeen reached with 150 hours of broadcast in their own language from the Thompson radio station CHTM alone so far this year. Hundreds of letters have poured in from an egg shaped �rea 150 miles around Thompson, from South Indian Lake to the northwest, to Oxford House, Cross Lake and Norw'ay House.

If we did not have these broadcasts Mr. McKenzie said, there

2414 May 29, 1972 (MR. McBRYDE cont'd) ••••• would b� a lot of anxious trappers out there, and many would be quitting early. On numerous occasions, he said, messages have been broadcast to trappers telling them that all was well with their families, and on a few occasions, informing them that they were urgently needed at home, The importance of Mr.

McKenzie •s words was brought out by Chief Nelson Linklater of Nelson House who interrupted the press interview, saying that he wanted a message to go out immediately informing the trappers the season had been extended until May 25th, A number of trappers, the chief said, would have had to quit soon to be back if this announcement did not reach them, Broadcasts are also being sent from Flin Flan Station CF AR, Mr.

McKenzie reported, reaching an estimated 10, 000 Cree speaking listeners- Some parts of the programs have also been given in Chippewayan, especially beamed for the residents of Brochet more than 100 miles north of Lynn Lake, So far 28 hour programs have originated from the Flin Flan station, Mr. McKenzie said that it was hoped that the broadcasting in Saulteaux would begin from station CKDM in Dauphin, In this case some 10, 000 Saulteaux speaking Manitobans would be reached, The programs Mr. McKenzie thinks would be about 75 percent Saulteaux and 15 percent Cree.

Through these broadcasts people of Indian ancestry are becoming proud of the language and proud of being Indian, Mr. McKenzie said, Their leaders are also becoming much more articulate. I remember on one early broadcast a chief might have trouble speaking for a minute or two - the other day one chief spoke extremely well for 22 minutes. " It looks like he's becoming afflicted with the same disease that often afflicts members of the Chamber, "At least 50 percent of the programs are informal.

This includes newscast information about locations, and away operation of Northern Manpower Corps and other employment agencies, as well as fur and fish marketing, There is also a considerable amount of music, much of which is recorded by bands, individuals right in the community, It is interspersed with country and music recordings, Mr. McKenzie says that no local talent has been turned down, The funding for the Native Communications Program comes through the Provincial Government's Northern Affairs Department. Last year $40, 000 was allocated which was to last until the end of March. Besides Mr.

McKenzie there are two young announcers Sidney MacKay of Thompson and Arnold D ••• of South Indian Lake, Both are fluent in Cree and, Mr. McKenzie says, are well liked throughout the area, A native communication broad caster-who worked closely with Johny Yesno in our Native Land Program on the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation, which has just been moved to Winnipeg," Mr. Chairman, that's just a brief press clipping on one small aspect of the program that I have been speaking of, The Shared Community Projects, which is No, (

f) in the Estimates, Mr. Chairman, shows the largest increase of any particular part of this budget, and the increase is due to a number of things, The first is the increase in servicing requirements as a result of the Remote Housing Program, plus a commitment to maintaining roads in Norway House. Mr.

Chairman, with the Remote Area Housing Program which comes under the Manitoba Housing and Renewal Corporation, the communities - some communities have been getting new houses built under this program and when they have new houses come into their community, thej wish to have the community set out in a more orderly fashion, and this is also required in termE of the Manitoba Housing and Renewal Corporation's operation that they have title to the land, and the land must be surveyed, etc.

This increase is going to cost about $389, 000,00, There is also an increased emphasis on electrification activity and some communities under a certain size, Manitoba Hydro is not able to provide the electricity and Northern Affairs assists communities under this size limit, Another reason for the increase in Shared Community Projects is the improvement of provision of water supplies through a setup of deep wells and pumping stations.

This has takAn place in a number of communities, The cost-sharing that we do on various community projects such as community building, etc. , is also another reason for the increase. Another reason is the rapid change taking place at Wabowden, Manitoba, in which there is considerable planning, surveying and work of this nature that is presently being undertaken. The other reason is the increase in the number of docks and bridges being built in this Estimate here, Now, Mr. Chairman, that's the

summary - a quick

summary of the Estimates of the Commissioner of Northern Affairs as they relate directly to the Northern Affairs community. The final item listed on Page 14 as No, 2, is The Pas Special Area Agreement, There is some problem, Mr. Chairman, in interpreting the figures for last year and this year - the·

t i I t ' May 29, 1972 2415 (MR. McBRYDE cont'd) • figure for last year $645,000 is actually more than was spent by the Commissioner of Northern Affairs, and that money was money that remained unspent at the end of the fiscal year and was left within the Commissioner of Northern Affairs budget rather than another department that is also involved in the Special Area budget. The amount to be spent this year, Mr.

Chairman, is $315, 600 for The Pas Special Area Agreement, The nature of this Information Communication Program is a more intensified, really a more intensified community development program with the emphasis on providing in formation and information exchange with the isolated - with all the communities within The Pas Special Area. There is the Community Development Program in the other

section of the Commissioner of Northern Affairs Estimates applies only to Northern Affairs areas, which are· mostly isolated communities. The Pas Special Area Agreement, the Information Communication Program applies to all communities within The Pas Special Area.

The figure here listed is the total cost of the Information Communication Program for this year, and members might notice that on the detailed estimates of revenue for the province for this year, there is an item there to the Commissioner of Northern Affairs for $219,000, and this is the share recoverable from Ottawa in the operation of this Information Communication Program, So, Mr. Chairman, the province's real input into this program is $86, 600.00 . Mr. Chairman, I believe that is a

summary of the Estimates. I would be quite prepared now to hear questions and comments from the members. MR, CHAffiMAN: The Honourable Member for Swan River. MR, BILTON: Mr. Chairman, first of all I would like to congratulate the honourable gentleman on his appointment to the position of Commissioner of Northern Affairs, and I listened to him quite closely and I must say that I am rather disappointed in what he had to tell us. I was expecting a great deal more, particularly with his experience in northern Manitoba, and obviously he was chosen for this post by that fact.

First of all I must say that I appreciated his explanation of the Act and the meaning of his responsibilities. He told us that one of the main thrusts of the department is to assist in com munity development and capital projects.

He wanted the- obviously wants the people to be come more knowledgeable as to exactly what the government can do, and what it intends to cl>, I notice, too, that he made some comments in a praiseworthy manner toward the Member for Inkster and I would like to add my words of appreciation to the honourable member for what he did and the activity he created, and I think he made the thrust that was necessary and possible laid the groimd work for the bettermep.t of the people as a whole. I was disappointed, Mr.

Chairman, that the new Minister had nothing to say about the activities of the Northern Task Force, He might have told us that the Northern Task Force hasn't done anything since he came into office, and we on this side have wondered why. You will recall that in tabling the report of the Northern Task Force that, or at least the report we dealt with was rejected and I am wondering now if in spite of that rejection, as to whether or not the Minister is using that as a format for his work toward northern development.

I would like him to tell us as to whether or not that report that he presented to the Task Force two or three days before this session opened is shelved.

I would also like to know how much interest the new Minister is taking in the 47 recom mendations of the Northern Task Force some two years ago, It was hailed as a useful report and was brought about through the efforts of the Honourable Member for Inkster and to me it was a red letter day because I feel that in the 47 recol'll mendations that were made at that time, that if they were keJt on the Minister's desk, so to speak, from time to time, that there would be enough work there for the good of the p00 ple in the north, that they would get some immediate attention as time went along.

I was disappointed too that the Minister did not mention that it was his intention to press for better health services in the north, and particularly dental service, I don't know but what there is still just one dentist assigned to northern Manitoba, and I'm talking of north of The Pas and northeast of The Pas, and that to me has been a crying shame. for a long time.

One man cannot in any way dint the work that has to be done, particularly with young children in northern Manitoba, I believe it was mentioned in the Task Force Report 1947 that some consideration might be given toward the provision of a senior citizens home for the northern people some where in northern Manitoba, I am thinking particularly of the Indian and Metis people and the aged and infirm amongst that population. I am disappointed that the Minister did not make some mention of that. ·

2416 May 29, 1972 (MR. BILTON cont'

d) I am suggesting to the Minister that I wish him well, and my colleagues wish him well, but I want to assure him that the people are looking for action and his Estimates have shown increases in certain areas - he did give us a thumbnail sketch as to the reason for the raises in some directions, and I noticed in salaries he's up $69, 000 over a year ago. I wonder if that includes the Minister's salary. If it doesn't include the Minister's salary, I would like a break down as to what that 69, 000-odd covers . He talks about shared community projects in which there is a tremendous increase.

I would hope he would favour the House with one or two of the extensive projects that he has in mind, that he hopes to complete. I would also like to hear from him as to what this Pas Special Area Agreement is about. I notice there is a reduction, but nevertheless I feel that the honourable members should be told as to why this item is there, and what it's intended for. I appreciated his comments with regard to the radio coverage in northern Manitoba, and this is all to the good in order that people might be given some information as to what is going on in the southern part of the province.

I was also surprised that he didn't make some comment as to his association with the Federal Indian Department, or what co-operation his department might be setting up in company with the Federal Indian Department, or Federal Indian Affairs, toward the betterment of the people as a whole.

Again I appreciate his comments but I believe he was talking in platitudes and on a height that I hope he doesn't operate in but rather he attempts to do something for northern Manitoba in a workmanlike and rational way so that when we meet again next year, he will possibly have a report that we will all take some pleasure in listening to. MR. CHA IRMAN : Re solution 40 (a) --passed; (b) -- passed . The Honourable Member for Churchill . MR. GORDON W. BEARD (Churchill): I hope you didn't think I'd let you off that easy.

I too would like to, it would be nice to start off with anyway and congratulate the new Com missioner of Northern Affairs and wish him well in spite of the naughty things that we'll have to say. And I trust that he'll be good for northern Manitob a. Unfortunately I think that again what government has done is fallen into the pitfall of try ing to do half a job in appointing, not in appointing the honourable member for The Pas as the Commissioner of Northern Affairs, but in curtailing the department in the way in which they have, as they have from the very first.

And while it was always promised that it would become bloom and blossom into a full department , it never has come about, and this government hasn't accepted that responsibility, nor has it accepted that philosophy, and as I have often said one department suffers. The First Minister says no, That he is not going to be caught into that kind of a net where it would split a province into regional areas. I believe that is the way he put it. And I don't agree with him on that. I don •t agree with him one bit.

Because I look at Fed eral Government; they have a Department of Northern Affairs which is growing, and which is used to look after those parts of the oountry which require a department of their own. They have the abilities to look after industry which is oriented to their areas and which they are re sponsible for.

They have the responsibility of looking after the people that live in that area, and in fact they have recently announced that they will be making sure that the new industries of the High Arctic will have to orient themselves so that they in effect will have to hire and deal with the people that live in the Northwest Territories and Yukon, and they will have to accept them into the industry. And I think that is - should be the No. 1 on any department which is looking after a northern part of the province. But certainly it can't be done under the setup that we have today.

But today really Northern Affairs is not responsible for northern development. You really can't say that it is. And in fact we are getting split up almost like the spokes of a wheel where something's in the middle and it's spread all out but you never get that communication feeding back as it should be. If you had that one department where you could breathe out that communication which is necessary so that you would have control, or knowledge of what's going on.

But instead each department is going it's own way, setting up its own experts, and one department - I don't care what they say, one department doesn't know what the other is doing, and you don't really have to go north I suppose to fall into that pitfall, but it's particularly so in northern Manitoba. And I think that we have to say into this, too, that not only does Northern

May 29, 1972 2417 (MR . BEARD Cont 'd) • Affairs have to look within itself and outside of itself and the government departments, but I also think that they should be working more in unison with the Manitoba Indian Brotherhood, Manitoba Metis Federati on, and their own Northern Association of Community Councils, to make sure that there isn't a duplication of services.

Because when you have government , and when you have the Indian Affairs, Indian Brotherh ood, Manitoba Metis Federation, and then the Northern Associat ion of Community Councils, you do have a duplicatio n in that some of the people belong and are affected by those same groups, and I believe that you have to be careful that there isn't duplications of things going on. And I th ink that you have to have direction, and I think it's about time that in some cases that there was some way in which we could stop and have a conference , and take a good look at where they 're going, and divide up the responsibilities.

But in dividing up the responsibilities, I believe, that Northern Affairs' money is going to be funnelled through the Province of Manitoba and given out to groups, that Northern Affairs is the proper one in which it should go through , but certai nly they have to have both the manpower ability and the confidence of not only the departmen t , the rest of the departments of government , they have to have confidence of those that they're working with such as the Manitoba Indian Brother hood, the Manitoba Federati on, Metis Federati on, the Northern Association of Community Councils, and the others in which they'll be dealing with.

But I think ea ch of them have to know not only where each other are going but what the th inking of government is. I know some time ago the Premier spoke of some 60 millions of dollars appropriat ed to the development of the north this year. Some 60 millions of dollars. But Northern Affairs has about two and a half·millions ofdollars, and that rea lly in itself points out to me the confidence that the government have in Northern Affairs, and that isn't very much. Not enough as far as I'm concerned.

It just seems to me that they have it as someth ing that was wished on them, that it isn't even enough to administrate that kind of money - certainly doesn't indicate to me in the staff that they have , that they can respond to the request for assistance from the other departmen ts which have to deal with problems such as health , or education, etc. , in the north.

I find that in my dealings with people, or the people coming to me with problems, that the ideas ar e still coming from the top down; that the government still is not listening, or they're not indicating that they hea r what people want to do, They come back with the programs mixed up and they come back to us with some suggestions that are entirely foreign to what those people ar e asking for. And they will be rejected even though they're carried out , they won't be satis factory. And again it 's just the fact that somebody isn't going to sit down and listen to them.

They're still have trouble with one department coming in to a reservation and the Chief-in Council come to them with a problem, and they say well, I'm sorry, we can't listen to you on that because it's not our department , and they take off and leave , not willing to listen to at least part of the problem and carrying it back and reporting it, so that somebody else can take over from ther e. So consequently the days, the weeks, go by, etc. , and noth ing happens.

Just before I came in today this young boy that 's had a problem, from Norway House, that has been in here for two or three months wait ing to be charged with stealing a snowmobile. He's living with an aunt that is on welfare; she isn't gett ing any money to support him. He's waiting for a parole officer to make some type of report out on him, and they wait and wait. He's not going to school. He's missed two or three months of school. They don't know.

There's no communicat ion between them and the government , and he will miss one yea r's school because of this - and I suDiiose he'll sit and wait for quite a long time before that parole officer gets around to handing in the results of his report, And yet this I_'m sure is because of an isolated community. They have to go in, and fly in to one or two areas to look into the case. There has been no communication between the law enforcement officers, the aunt is looking after him, and the Department of Welfare.

And these people are reluctant ; they have their faith in govern ment that will look after everything, and there they sit and wait - and this is constantly the problem in northern Manitoba. These people sit and wait. But I would say, what is Northern Affairs really going to do? Are they going to get in volved in the South Indian Lake change that is coming up ? Are they going to see to it that the residents of South Indian La ke are supported in their thinking ? Are they going to see to it that there is legal aid for the people of South Indian La ke who claim that their livelihood is being taken away ?

Have they indicated to the people of South Indian La ke that there will be funds made availa ble, because I understand that there's 50 odd thousand dollars still laying around in some corner that government keeps saying , well you don't need it just yet, wait , some day

2418 May 29, 1972 (MR. BEARD Cont'd) , •••• yau•re going to need that money. And why ? That 's the Attorney General gives • • • thing, He says, why do they need it ? Just trust in us, Trust the govern ment, They don't need the $50, 000 , or they don't need any money to hire a lawyer, Well, Mr. Chairman, you don 't need to flood a community to be protected from the government, and if you want proof of that you go in the street and the government can get at you in many many ways without flooding your home, And this has been proven.

And that Fund wasn't set up particularly just to protect people from getting their homes flooded, but to protect those particular people from having their livelihood taken away. I would say that if the Attorney-General would spend a little time in studying what goes on in some of the other areas, such as Churchill, where these types of moves and these - thinking for the people took place, and the decisions were made for the people rather than have people make their own decisions.

He will find that he's paying very little because the costs can be great if you take these things away • • • MR, MACKLING: Would the honourable member permit a question? MR, BEARD: I suppose, MR. CHAffiMAN: The Honourable Attorne y-General, MR. MACKLING: Would the honourable member indicate on what basis he seems to be founding an assumption that they're under the proposed development of Churchill River regu lation, there is to be any demonstrated effect on the communities at Southern Indian Lake? MR. CHAffiMAN: The Honourable Member for Churchill, MR.

BEARD: I won't waste time at this particular time, but if the Honourable Attorney General wants me to give him a lesson on fishing, and fish spawn , and muskrat houses, beaver dams, I' ll be pleased to do it at some time if he'll buy me coffee, and I' ll do so, I say that Northern Affairs should be looking into the Churchill Renewal Program that's going on, the unrest because there isn't a developer there on a full-time basis, The people are unhappy about - again the thinking of Winnipeg going into the development of the town, and they are not involved, as they say, to the extent that they wish, even in the planning of the homes.

I say that isolated airfields should come under the program of Northern Affairs, because that 's what Northern Affairs are all about, How about the education? How about the develop ment of winter roads? How about health?

This is very close to people, If we're talking about people, if this is what Northern Affairs is all about, this comes pretty close, Social Develop ment, Northern Work Force, If it's people, that Northern Work Force, Northern Manpower, should be under the Department of Northern Affairs where people can get at the department and know where to go, Confusing enough for a lot of those people without having to filter through many many different types of civil service to find out where to go to get the answers to scme of these questions, The Native Communications -I think it is a good program, It's one of the very good things that this government has stepped into, and I would congratulate them on it, I feel that the broadcasts are the thing that have brought the government closest to the people.

The people certainly have the confidence in listening to somebody that 's talking to them, They get to know them just as we do, those people that we learn to trust, I suppose the people, how many people, thousands of people in Winnipeg get to think that Peter Warren, or John Harvard, or some of these, don't have all the answers for everybody . they believe that these are the peoplt' that they should trust.

And so with the Indian people when they find that somebody is giving them the advice that they can depend upon, then this is what is necessary I believe for the best types of communications, Certainly they welcome that bit of entertainment that goes along with it, I think the government should be congratulated on it, I would hope it would carry on throughout the whole of northern Manitoba, I suppose it costs money.

I don't really begrudge paying taxes on those basis because I don't really think that it costs that much per person when you burrow it down to those facts, and those people don't get the opportunity to read the papers, etc. , and this is one way in which at least they get the real things that are necessary to their livelihood such as the prices for furs, fish and the changes in the different regulations as they come up, and it is one way in which Health and Welfare and Education can get programs over to them.

It's a way in which the government civil servants can meet with many people at one time and I think that if it's properly oriented as time goes by then certainly the people will retain their confidence in the program and it will gain strength not only through Thompson but of course through Flin Flon and Dauphin stations. Thank you, Mr, Chairman,

May 29, 1972 2419 MR . CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Rhineland. MR. FROE SE: Mr. Speaker, I cert ainly couldn't afford to pass up the opportunity to make a few comments on the Commissioner of Northern Affairs' Estimates . I was rather sur prised to hear some of the statements that the Minister did make in his opening remarks and I think I would question some of them. He mentioned 389, 000 being spent on surveys.

I hope he does tell us more about this, where this money was spent; what areas have been surveyed to date and how much more is required; and whether the Estimates before us, to what extent will they complete the work that is necessary at the present time. But what interested me more was that he made the statement that there was a consider able amount underspent last year from the Estimates and that this was carried over. Mr.

Chairman, if that is correct then this is an irregularity because the Estimates that we passed last year lapsed as of March 31st and none of those monies should be spent and carried over into the next year. They should be brought before this House for re- approval or re- affirma tion to be spent for that purpose. We just heard through the press of the Auditor-General Henderson of Ottawa complaining about this very fact, that large amounts of money were being carried forward and spent in an irregular way and this certai nly is an irregularity if this is the case.

And I would like to know from the Minister just how much money is there, how much is being carried over ? Because I would take issue with that and I certai nly hope that when we get our next year's report from the Auditor that this will show up because under our Act and under the legislation that we operate this should definitely be the case. Mr. Chai rman, I would like to refer briefly to the interim report of the Northern Affairs Committee that was tabled two years ago in this House.

At that time the committee did a lot of work making many suggestions, and I would like to hear from the Minister just what has been done in relation to the various problems that existed at that time. For instance on Page 38 of that report under Matters Related to Social Services (

a) Welfare, we find the problem noted here as follows: (

a) Many reserve communities report that their welfare budgets are not suffi cient to cover their needs and that the rates are too low for a basic standard of living; and (

b) Some communities report negative relationships with the welfare workers. Has there been any change ? Has there been any increase given? What is the situati on? Is the problem still as it was at that time? This is two years later, and do we still have the same problem existing ? Maybe the Minister could comment on that. There are many more items in this, I would just refer to a few. I note on Page 42 under Aged People and Services the problems noted by the people: (

a) Many communities report they are not receiving the services they need because professional persons do not have an under standing of native people; (

b) Many communities report that professional persons do not visit often enough nor do they spend sufficient time in the community. Is this still the ca se? What is the situation ? Have we had any improvement whatev er? Mr. Ch airman, actually I should not be directing some of these questions to the present Commissioner becaus e for most of the period I think the Member for Inkster was Minister at that time and we have no salary item so that we could actually cut his salary. He is no longer a Minister so we cannot cut his salary but I'm just wondering whether he did a good job.

I don't think so, because it seems to me that the problems are still there. They haven't been rectified to date, On Page 44, Economic Development - problem noted by the people: There is little economic development in isolated communities in the north. What has been done ? Certai nly they mention here mining, forestry, fishing, trapping, tourism, public facilities, and here some of the suggestions are made: a Land Titles Office for The Pas and another one for Thompson. Under Industries they mention five or six different industries that could be es tablished. How many have been established? Any? Under (

h) Suggestions for Churchill specifically: (1) a research centre ; (2) industrial and technical school; (3) expansion of shipping season; and (4) establish a free port. What development have we had in this respect ? And under (i): Suggestions for Bissett specifically - use existing buildings for development of school in geology and forestry. Well we do no longer hear about Bissett. What is happening in Bissett? Are the people all on welfare ? Have they moved out? Is the mine in operation ? I certainly would like to hear from the Minister.

When the loan was made originally has that loan been paid off or is there still some money owing on that ? How much did the government have to put up ? On Page 46 the matter of co-ops is mentioned and the problems noted by the people in

2420 May 29, 1972 (MR. FROESE cont'd) •••.• this connection. And it says: (

a) Many communities faced with high prices and low incomes seek assistance in improving or developing co-ops; (

b) Co-op service has not incorporated a developmental approach. During the first year or two of this government when it was in office we heard a lot of talk about what they would do and how they would establish the co-operat ives in the north and have the people run them and rea lly have a development in this connection - but what do we hear now? I didn't hear one word about co operat ives from the Commissioner of Northern Affairs. On Page 47 the Freshwater Fish Marketing Board is mentioned.

And the problem noted here by the people: That the new organization information distribution methods and opera ting techniques are not very firmly established. What is the situation as far as fishing is concerned up in northern Manitoba ? Is it on an increas e? Are the lakes still closed and will more of them be reopened. Wha t is the fishing industry like and will the people in connection with the Northern Affairs area, will they be benefitting ? Will they be able to improve their lot? Or are there more lakes tha t are going to be closed, and I cert ainly would like to know what this situation is. Mr.

Chairman, two years ago this report was being hailed in this House as "the" report. We had a lot of discussions on it and there are very varied and many recommen dations in it, We have heard real ly nothing whether parts of them have been implemented; whether they are being implemented and what the government's program is in connection with the various recom mendations, I know there are other recomme ndations in regard to education tha t the people want ed to be more independent and wanted to have a greater say as t() the educa tion process up in nothern Manitoba. Is there anything going on in this respect?

Are they being given more freedom ? Is there more education being carried on? Certainly I think it's time that we did hear more about the situation especially now tha t we are dealing with the affairs of the Northern Commissioner and where we're allocating further monies. Mr. Chairman, I think the former Minister should real ly get into the debate and tell us what he did when he was Commissioner. --(I nterj ection)-- What -- I know at one time he was shooting off on the airs trips of northern Manitoba; I understand there were quite a few made.

I think he should get up and tell us because the monies have been spent and I certai nly would like to know what the situation is. How man y more are there to go in ? How man y communities have been supplied with an airstrip - and as far as communica tions too. Would the Minister give us an up-to-dat e report? MR . CHAffiMAN: The Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie. MR. GORDON E. JOHNSTON (Portage la Prairie): Well, Mr. Chairman, I'm sorry I didn't hear the Minister's initial statement.

I'm sure that he is trying extremely hard and he has the sympathy in his heart for the people of the north and I know tha t -- I know that he's trying. But when I take a look at the figures I wonder rea lly what' s going on. Two point four million dollars and some thousands. Nearl y half of tha t money is spent on what I would call the white man' s administration process. There is real ly not that much for the native peoples, t_he Metis, the Indians .

I know I'll be charged with saying well I'm going to be reported to the Human Rights Commission for talking about Indian people but I intend to talk about the Indian and Metis people of the north. I made a speech about two weeks ago and I as ked the qnestion of how man y Indian people were employed at the CFI complex and there was a charge made on tha t side of the House that they don't keep these sort of figures in their information indices, This is very unfair to even suggest a word like tha t. A MEMBER: It's used in Ottawa every day. MR. G.

JOHNSTON: Yet it's used in Ot tawa in all their indices, all their debates - they talk about what they are trying to do for the Indian people, the Eskimo people and the Metis. So I would ask the Minister to tell me about the program s, Community Development , Human Development and Shared Community Projects. How much of this money dollarwise is going to filter down to the communities that we are talking about?

Now the Minister -- I enjoyed his company on the Northern Task Force, he was dedicated to what he was doing, As a ma tter of fact he introduced a preliminary report which hopefully could have become a report of the Northern Task Force, a final report. And it was pointed out to him in Committee that the st atements contained in tha t report were rea lly some sort of an unrealis tic manifesto. The statement s contained in this suggested report were not realistic.

So I would aek the Minister to tell us what he is doing to narrow the gap, not equalize or im plement because tha t's pretty well impossible when you're talking about Brochet, Shamattawa,

May 29, 1972 2421 (MR. G. JOHNSTON cont'd) ....• Berens River, God•s Lake, St. Therese, Island Lake and so on where it's so difficult to deliver to these people the services that are being enjoyed by others in Canada -whether it be Medicare, social services, education or whatever -recreation and so on. And let us strip away the verbiage. Let us have the Minister tell us realistically what he is doing to narrow the gap.

Let's not have the idealistic, simplistic, socialistic speeches where we are going to give to everybody in the province equally the same thing. - (Interjection)--There's no way. --(Interjection)--There's just no way this can be done. --(Interjection)-- Well, I hear some chatter from the friends sitting in their seats opposite. No doubt this bothers them because they always say in their electioneering slogans and programs that they're going to make everybody equal. Everybody's going to have equal opportunity. Well if every body's going to have equal opportunity in the north I want the Minister to spell it out.

Don't give us the slogans. No, the people have heard the slogans for so many years now; let•s have it the way it is. - Another member is making a speech from the seat of his pants and saying, "you guys, you guys". Well, we guys are not in government. You guys have the allotment of monies. So with 2. 4 million dollars, I want the Minister to be realistic. Half of the money is taken up on the white man's administration; the other half is taken up to do something for the peoples of the north and I want the Minister to tell us how well he's spending that other half.

Perhaps he could also tell us how much Federal involvement is in his budget if any because I don't really know. The Feds are putting quite a bit of money into the north. The Churchill agreement - my friend the Whip of the NDP is making another speech from the seat of his pants. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please. MR. G. JOHNSTON: And he's saying the "good guys". They're not good guys really, they're trying to help for all of Canada. But let us talk about the north. Let us talk about the north.

Let the Minister tell us if he has a continuing consultation and involvement with the Federal people who are putting money into the north. Is there two programs going on, one from Ottawa and one from Winnipeg where they don•t really know what the other --the left hand or the right hand is doing?

I would expect the Minister to develop and talk about the · Federal-Provincial approach where there is some sort of co-operation. lTsually in this House we hear speeches ·lashing Ottawa, which is fine, but when something happens that is good for the province -and I used the example of the Winnipeg Mint -not one word from that side, not one word. They pretend it didn't happen. A hundred and forty jobs and $16 million of spending -not one word is heard from that side, that well Ottawa has done something good for this province.

I come back to the north - I want the Minister to tell us the type of co-operation, the type of involvement he's getting from Ottawa - if he's not getting it, or if he hasn't sought it, let him say so. But if he has sought it and there is a degree of co-operation, well let him tell us about it. You know, Mr. Chairman, when I was on the Northern Task Force one of the most salient facts that I noticed in talking to the people of the north, was that they didn't quite relate between Federal and Provincial - and do you know to my sorrow, Mr. Chairman, some of the political people took advantage of this.

Anything good that was going on, they took credit for it whether they were provincial or federal, and anything bad they blamed it on the other administration. I hear a laugh from my jolly friend the Member for Churchill and I think I•ve struck a respon sive chord. So it's laughable in a sense, but it's not a very good thing- it's pretty cynical politics when a provincial politician or a provincial administrator doesn't tell the people the way it is and vice versa.

If a Federal administrator of a Federal elected person doesn't tell those people exactly the way it is, as he knows it, then this is destroying the kind of co operation that we are seeking at the two levels of government -and I would ask the Minister to talk on these points. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 40 (a). The Honourable Member for Winnipeg Centre. MR. J. R. (BUD) BOYCE (Winnipeg Centre): Mr. Chairman, the Commissioner of Northern Affairs needs no help from me to defend himself against the last speaker, but he keeps: "tell us, tell us, tell us", you know.

And in the questions he's implying -or the group that he is associated with, the non group at the present time -the type of organization which would provide some better answers. I would just like to mention one of the things that the Commissioner of Northern Affairs has done for the last three years -even before he was Commissioner of Northern Affairs.

2422 May 29, 1972 (MR. BOYCE cont'

d) One of the things that he has done is made sure that the members of this particular group on this side of the House, are made cognizant of the problems in the north - and not by reading reports or other peoples ' opinions, but by actually taking some of them by the scruff of the neck and taking them through these places so that they can listen to the people themselves, put on the record what their problems are.

I personally, bef ore I was a member of this House, my only acquaintance with the Peguis people for example, was in history books - but through the Commissioner' s efforts I was able to sit down and listen to these people talk about their plans and their hopes for the future. But, Mr. Chairman, after the last speaker, you know his whole approach to this thing, it just raises my chagrin. You know, he talks about the wonder ful Federal Government and their just society, and he talks about the mint, the big mint that comes here.

The only time we read about it is when they come into the province and they get all their Liberal friends out there in the corner with a bulldozer and put on a bunch of hoopla, it was a $100-p late dinner or something the night before or something - oh yeah, $50 - oh, they're coming down. But here - you know, Mr. Chairman, it just surprises me how people on the other side, and especially the Member for Portage la Prairie as a repres entative of the Liberal group, you know, keeps trying to kid the people in Manitoba that the Liberals are interested in Manitoba's development.

Really they couldn' t care less - they just throw a little sop once in a while; here's a mint and 140 people - yeah. You know a year or a few years ago I remember the Liberal Party - all the excuses you know, why they had to move Air Canada down east you know; that all the investment was in Dorval and everything else. But this is - this is their, you know, historical approach to solving the problems of Manitoba. They wipe out over 1, 000 jobs - wipe them out, and then they come back and just in a bare face stand up here and say "we gave you back 140 jobs". Mr. Chairman, ... MR . G.

JOHNSTON: Will the honourable member permit a question? MR. BOYCE: Ce rtainly, MR. G. JOHNSTON: Is the Member for Winnipeg South Centre aware of the fact that the decision was made to move Air Canada under the Diefenbaker administration? MR. BOYCE: Well, I hope Mr. Richardson has taken note of the member's question that I am now the Member for Winnipeg South Centre; perhaps that's a situation devoutly to be wished, MR. CH AIRMAN: Order, please. Will the honourable member get back to the topic under dis cussion. MR. BOYCE: Well, Mr.

Chairman, you know it's hard to keep to the point when you are kind of res ponding to the Member for Portage la Prairie, because there is no point. He talks and he asks questions and he tries to give the impression that the Liberal Government who moved Air Canada - who moved Air Canada - who moved - well the Gimli Air Force base I can understand. Pers onally in this regard I know this group on this side of the House indicated that if we formed the Federal Government that perhaps they would be closing up more Armed Forces bases. But, Mr.

Chairman, for the member to stand up here and say tliat the Liberal Government, you know, who is interested and who lets the people know, who lets the people know what is exactly in their plans and everything else - the Member for Churchill brought it to the attention of the House, you know - how reliable the Federal Government is in this area; you know they are issuing out of one side of their mouth down east little directives and innu endoes that everything will be shipped into Manitoba through Montreal.

If you want to buy something you buy it and ship it out of Montreal; you don' t ship it through Churchill - and we are getting telegrams here from the Minister that this is not so. How we have all in this province argued for years that the port of Churchill should be developed, and here once again we are hearing about shoving up this port into the Northwest Territories- Liberal policy. The spokesman for the Liberal group, or the non group, says that you know the Commissioner of Northern Affairs should come out and state a policy, Mr.

Chairman, I for one would just love to know what the Liberal policy is, with some hope of it being consis tent for the next few years. MR . CH AIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Souris-Killarney. MR. McKELLAR: Mr. Chairman, I just want to say a word and I'm not going to get political here or anything. I just want to get back to a cheerful note - a cheerful note, I' m getting kind of tired of the politics. We had a cheerful weekend out on the tractor . . . I just want to mention something here that hasn't been mentioned I don' t think in these Est imates,

May 29, 1972 2423 (MR. McKELLAR cont•d) ..... the 60th anniversary of Northern Manitoba. Then years ago the members of the Legislature in the month of August went on a trip starting in The Pas, from there to Lynn Lake, back to Flin Flon, over to Thompson, up to Churchill and back to The Pas again. I can't remember whether the Honourable - the Member for Rhineland was on that trip, I guess the only other member that was on that trip at that time.

But we did enjoy our selves and the member - I do n' t think that present member for Churchill was here at that time; and maybe the Minister of Labour, I can't remember whether he was on it or not, I think he was. But we did enjoy ourselves at that time; it was one of the first times that I had the ex perience of touring many of these particular places, and I was wondering what the Minister, the First Minister is doing for the people of the north this year during the 60th anniversary because we haven't heard mention of this particular anniversary up until now I don't think in this Chamber.

I think these people appreciated the trip that was made that year by the members of the Legislature; they appreciated it at every stop we made, as the Member for Rhineland will indi cate too, I think they appreciated not only our being there but the many celebrations that were held at the various places that we also attended. And the one that I can remember so well was at Lynn Lake, that particular morning that we were there - and I never experienced se eing such big vegetables in their display as what they had that particular day.

I didn' t realize they could grow vegetables on rock but after they told me what they had to go through to grow these particular vegetables I appreciated the work that went into them, because they had to go long distances to haul any kind of earth that they could find to grow these particular vegetables - but they were a lot bigger than the ones we grow here in the south. Also, too, I remember going to Churchill and after experiencing the pretty hot climate in The Pas and Lynn Lake, we experienced a real cold chill when we got that day to Churchill, and many of us were not prepared for the winds .

If only we had talked to some of the members, northern members, I think before we went we would have carried more clothes with us . It was very cold, but we did experience a great warmth from the northerners in all points that we visited and I would like to congratulate the people of northern Manitoba on their 60th anniver sary of joining Manitoba. MR, CH AIRMAN: The Honourable Commissioner of Northern Affairs. MR. McBRYDE: Mr. Chairman, I think it's been agreed that I could sit in the front bench and I'll have my staff come down.

Comments by the Member from Swan River were - a considerable amount to do with the Northern Task Force Report, and I would like to deal with that Task Force Report after I finish commenting on the other members' questions that have specifically to do with the Esti mates, Maybe I'll just point out - I think the Member for Churchill is aware - just to clarify it for the Member for Swan River and the Member for Rl:Iineland and others, the Northern Affairs area is northern Manitoba north of Township 20, I believe it is - 21, excuse me, that are not towns, cities, municipalities, local government districts, and otherwise organized, which eliminates a number of northern communities specifically from consideration in the Estimates of the Northern Affairs Commission.

In my opening remarks I limited myself pretty well to the Estimates, what is the specific duties and functions of the Commissioner in that regard, Perhaps in my answering comments, Mr. Chairman, I can range a little bit more broadly in terms of Northern Manitoba and northern development.

The one question of the Member for Swan River was in relation to the Minister's Salary - the Minister's salary is not included in the Estimates as they were prepared previous to my appointment, and the funds have been transferred from Executive Council; the Estimates of the Executive Council which have already passed have now been transferred to the Northern Affairs Commission; they are No. 1 (

b) of the Executive Council. The other question that the Member for Swan River asked was in relation - well then, what are these salaries ? Now, Mr. Chairman, there are - I'll just list for the Member from Swan River the positions about which we are speaking. --( Interjection)-- Do you want to know just the increas e or the previous salaries as well ? MR, BILTON: The average - $69, 000 over last year. MR . McBRYDE : As I explained in my introductory remarks, the increase is due to taking ...

Previously the Department of Mines and Resources handled the accounting function of Northern Affairs ; we are now overloading them and we've both agreed to assume this accounting function ourselves , and I'm sure the staff will be pleased to hear that because quite

2424 May 29, 1972 (MR . McBRYDE cont'd) . often we were left to the last in terms of expense accounts etc. when we were under that department. And the other increas e is the taking over from Municipal Affairs of the planning function in some of the communities in Northern Manitoba. So the new positions are Acc ountant IT, Acc ounting Clerk II, Accountant Planner IV, Planning Ass istant Draughtsman Ill, and Administrative Officers 2 positions, and Administrative Clerk Ill; that's secre tarial staff to the new position. I have a few of the exact salaries ... MR.

BILTON: A question whilst the Minister is discuss ing that- I wonder if the Minister could tell the House as to whether or not this is new staff or taken from other parts of the Civ il Serv ice. MR. McBRYDE : This, Mr. Chairman, is new staff. There was an increase in the de mand for these services which was over burdening the other department. I do not believe there was a reduction from the other Estimates - no, there was not a reduction in the other Esti mates, but to pick up an increase in serv ices. I have some salary figures here for those new positions. The member says, that's fine< ...

The other interest of the Member for Swan River was The Pas Special Area agreement, and while I'm answering that question maybe I could deal with the comments of the Member for Swan River to remind me not to repeat myself when I get there. The Pas Special Area agree ment that appears in the Estimates book is specifically for the Information-Communication Program, which as I mentioned is similar to the Community Development Program which the department handles in other areas of the province.

But it is more intensified and its effort is more specifically on the information input into communities as well as doing things like video tape recordings, and . . . recording communities views and opinions for other departments in government so other departments have an idea what people in communities think about their programs and how those programs affect them. While I'm on that subject, Mr. Speaker, I'll mention the comments of the Member from Rhineland.

The Estimates for The Pas Special Area Agreem ent appear under the Executive Council under the Planning and Priorities Committee of Cabinet, and a number of agreements are mentioned there; the DREE Agree ment, the ARDA Agreem ent, the FRED Agreem ent, The Pas Special Area Agreement and the Canada/Manitoba Special ARDA Agreement. Now it is my understanding in the nature of those agreements - and this agreement is included under the Budget for Northern Affairs, but it isn•t really an attachment to there, it' s not a normal depart mental line function of the Department of Northern Affairs.

But the Information-Communication that's shown in the Estimates is similar enough to the Community Development Program that was attached to our Estimates and has a Board of Directors, but the ultimate res ponsibility does lie with the Commissioner of Northern Affairs for that program.

Now it's my understanding of the Special Area Agreement with the Fede ral and Pro'.lincial Government that certain projects are entered into an agreement with Manitoba and Canada, and that if those projects are not completed at the end of the fiscal year there can be a carry-over into the next fiscal year for those agreed to projects. Now perhaps further clarification could have come from the Estimates under the Planning and Priorities Committee where the bulk of the The Pas Special Area agreement is administered. Some of the projects take longer than a year, some of them are more than a year long in nature.

The Information-Communication Program which appears in this Estimate is a five year - as the others are, within a five-year agreement with the Federal Government. The exact amount spent last year on the Information Communication Program which appears in the Estimates this year at $315, 600. 00. Last year the program never got off the ground until probably half-way through the year, and the spending for that program last year was $101, 50 0, 00. The remainder of that $645, 000 would be allo cation for those projects that have not yet been completed.

The Member for Swan River mentioned the co-operation with Federal Indian Affairs . There are some of our programs are cost-shareable with Indian Affairs in some of the isolated northern communites . Most of these northern communites are mixed treaty and non-treaty population. The road maintenance and the school bus routes, we share those projects with the Federal Department of Indian Affairs . I think the Member for Swan River was asking that question specifically.

As the members are no doubt aware the projects relating specifically to the res erves themselves are the responsibility of the Federal Department of Indian Affairs ; but a number of projects affecting the reserve community or the treaty community and the non-treaty community

May 29, 1972 2425 (MR. McBRYDE cont•d) . roads and airstrips are us ually cost-s hared between the Federal and Provincial GQvernment. There was some question about the airstrip program and that is pres ently administered by the Department of Mines and Resources under the same people who administer the GQvernment Air Services Program . The Member for Churchill said, Mr. Chairman, exactly what I thought he was going to say.

I know that he has for a long time been disappointed in the Northern Affairs and in northern development, and that was his reason for previously resigning from the Conser vative GQvern ment - over his disappointment in their northern program and northern policy C>r lack of same. And I suppose it's to be expected that he's still somewhat disappointed, although I would hope that when he looks at what the differences are and what the changes have been that he's not as disappointed as he was at one time.

I was kind of su rprised that the Member for Churchill used a comparis on, and said that we should look at the Federal Department of Northern Affairs - and in its full name, Mr. Chairman, at the Federal Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development, to give it its full title; and I think it is our clear wish and the clear wish of people of Indian ancestry in Manitoba that we avoid any department that's based sol ely on the ethnic consi deration. But the other aspect of the Member for Churchill's comment was that we could administer things like Ottawa does. Mr.

Speaker, I would hope that we never want to create a situation that they have in the Northwest Territories where the decisions are made in Ottawa for the Northwest Te:rrltories and efforts to take control and have the complete control of the Northwest Terri tories in their own hands are oppos ed, at least not facilitated by the Federal GQvernment - because it is our effort in the office of the Commissioner of Northern Affairs to make every effort to try and get the responsib ility down to the community level. Now, Mr. Chairman, sometimes this involves problems.

I know that federally when the Indian Band councils were switching to self-government there was considerable problems when people started administer ing their own funds, in terms of mismanagement of those funds. As we turn over the manage ment of funds to community councils under the Northern Affairs Act we are expecting that there will be some such mismanag ement of those funds. We are taking every effort to watch this, to detect it as quickly as possible and to assist the communities to deal with that problem when it aris es .

But the risk we feel is worth taking as long as we keep our eye on the situation and are aware when there is any misuse of funds and move in as quickly as we can. But we can•t predict ahead of time which communities are going to have this problem, which communities will not be ready yet to take complete control of the finances themselves, so we move ahead in the hope that the ma jority of them will be able to adequately manage their own affairs . There is some disagreement between the First Minister, myself and the Member for Churchill in regard to the functions of the Northern Affairs operation.

As the Commiss ioner, there has been some effort to have my-self assu me respons ibilities in other areas, some responsibilities in regards to the Northern Manpower Corps as the Member for Churchill sugges ted, some responsibi lity in regards to fishing regulations, etc. These have not been formalized and are not official as yet although there is an attempt to have the Northern Affairs Commissioner involved in those decisions and have some effect on those type of decisions that affect northern Manitoba.

The Member for Churchill mentioned. working in uhison with the Indian Brot�erhood, the Manitoba Metis Federation and the Northern Asso ciation of Community Councils . Mr. Speaker, we have pretty close liaison with these organizations. The Northern Asso ciation of Community Councils is like an ass ociation of rural municipalities or urban municipalities, etc. , and represents probably a ma jority of the community councils in Northern Manitoba. We give them a cer tain amount of money for grants and assist them with their conferences etc.

There is a concern I think would be worthwhile to mention and that is that - our concern is that the maximum possible development takes place at the community level and we do every thing within our power to encourage that, and our staff are aware of that as the policy and try to keep the decision - making process at the community council level at the community level as much as is possible.

There is always a danger of a bureaucracy away from the community making decisions on behalf of the community; and that danger lies not only with the operation of the Office of the Commissioner of Northern Affairs, but it could conceivably develop I guess with the Metis Federation or the Northern Asso ciation of Community Councils - and we wouldn't like to see them become another bureaucracy directing communites rather than having the communities the effective directors of their own organization, the effective controllers of their

242 6 May 29, 1972 (MR. McBRYDE cont•d) .•... own organization. I don' t think it has reached that stage where this is happening yet, but I think it's something that the community councillors, the people in the community and people in the Manitoba Metis Federation have to be constantly aware of and have to make every effort to keep strong at the local level and keep the decision making going on at the local level. MR. BEARD : Would the Minister ... MR , McBRYDE: I' d be glad to - I was wondering what to say next. MR. CH AIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Churchill. MR .

BEARD: What I was trying to accomplish with that statement was hopefully that the Commissioner of Northern Affairs could approach the three organizations - the Manitoba Indian Brotherhood, the Northern Association of Community Councils and Manitoba Metis Federation - and have them meet with the government, particularly at budget time and sit down to discuss financing etc. so that maybe it would do away with duplication services etc. MR .

McBRYDE: ... organizations that you mention not as extensive a contact as Northern Affairs with the Manitoba Indian Brotherhood because most of their concerns relate to reser ves and their contact is a little bit less than the contact we have with the MMF and the Northern Ass ociation of Community Councils.

The Budget process in regards to community councils is done at the community level; certain amount of monies are made available to the community, other monies are made available on a cost-sharing basis - and we with our staff try and get the communities to determine to set their priorities and establish their own projects and not try and make any of thes e decisions down here in Winnipeg but allow that decision to be made at the community leveL I think this is more effective than let•s say , sitting down with the executive or the officials of the NACC in looking at the budgets because this keeps the budget control at the community level.

Now we meet with the organizations in regard to the over-all budget. Of course they would like more and we would like more and, you know, this is the problem of balancing government to each operation trying to get its fair share of funds. I think the member was also referring to duplication. For example, we did have a meet ing this morning with repres entatives of the Manitoba Metis Federation in regards to Northern Manpower Corps, and find out what they were doing.

We told them that we were doing, to try and ensure that there was not a duplication, and that if we are willing to give them contracts for a specific work in regards to manpower placement, those contracts would be quite well defined so that their operation will fit in with the rest of the over-all direction of the Manpower program. I think this type of thing too is recently being done - and I noted the Information Communications staff, my deputy has requested that they convene a meeting of various agencies that deal with Moose Lake and Easterville to avoid any duplication.

For example in Moose Lake we heard from the chairman of the Board - Moose Lake Loggers Corporation - there is some housing repair going on there under the terms of the Forebay Agreement. There are fishing programs going on and then there is always as a last resort the Social Assis tance Program. And hopefully the agencies and the community leaders will meet and I'm hoping they'll give priority to the Loggers' program and second priority to the Housing Repair Program, and hopefully in that particular community there'l l be enough jobs so that no able-bodied will have to be in receipt of social assistance.

And the social worker will be fully aware that there are enough jobs and that there is no need to give out social assistance to able-bodied people in that community. In regard to Easterville, as the Member for Churchill I think is aware, there' ll be a di fficult time establishing enough jobs for all the reside nts in the community of Easterville. The other aspect I guess of the Member for Churchill's comments that bothered me is the idea and I'm not - maybe I have him - maybe I didn• t hear him properly or maybe I mis understood him.

I got the impression he was saying there should be one government agency, sort of like Indian Af fairs is with the Treaty Indians - or was at one time - so that when the people in the community have any complaint, any concern, that agency will follow through and bring answers and solve that particular problem. And I don't know, Mr. Speaker, that to me sort of smacks of the Great White Father approach, that you go into a community and then you go out and solve all their problems for them.

I think that people have to learn, you know, they have to learn to unders tand this process called government at their own level and at the pro vincial and at the federal level. And they have to learn like other people in the rest of Manitoba have learned how to deal with government and how to get their requests heard in government, how to effect the decisions and policies of government. And I believe that is a function of the Community Development staff and all our staff to try and assist communities to understand that

May 29, 1972 2427 (MR. McBRYDE cont'd) . process and try and assist communites to deal with govern- ments at all levels at their own level as well as the provincial and federal level. So I hope I misunderstood the Member for Churchill, or misinterpret him in his comments in that regard. The Member for Churchill mentioned that for example the airfields , winter roads, edu cation, health and social development, Northern Manpower Corps 1etc. should be under the Northern Affairs Commission. And I would agree with him on some and disagree with him on the other.

I don•t know - we're not particularly excited in the Northern Affairs Department to get involved in the welfare, handling of welfare and welfare cheques. We• d rather have Health and SocHtl Development do that. Now maybe that's sort of a narrow approach in our view but we'd rather leave that problem for that department to deal with.

In terms of the Department of Education, I don' t know - I would, you know, prefer that education is handled as similarly as possible to the rest of Manitoba and not have that particu lar large budget - and the member was asking about the $60 million, and I would say a good chunk of that is affected by the education budget in northern Manitoba.

The member mentioned the Native Communications Program, and I understand that there was a similar 1;ype of program at one time - I don' t know if the member is familiar with it and there were certain problems that evolved, and I'm sure the Member for Churchill could tell a much better story about that particular program. We are hoping not to run into difficul ties with this pres ent one. It does have its own board of directors who make the decisions. I guess - you know our say is that when we give out the money then we're satisfied that it' s operating in a reasona ble and neutral manner in northern Manitoba.

I'm not sure if I answered the Member for Rhineland•s questions. Some of the questions in regard to various things in northern Manitoba, aside from the Northern Task Force Report which was his main -- the main material that he used to make his speech. I think I explained to him the Estimates, and the fairly limited role of the Commissioner of Northern Affairs in terms of the Act as it stands today. And I would hope he would understand that, and I mention to him The Pas Special Area Agreem ent, and how that works .

He asked about Churchill and a few other areas that are not with the Northern Affairs area, and do not come under the re sponsibility of the Commissio ner of Northern Affairs . He did mention Biss ett. What is happening in Bis sett, and I was fortunate enough to be able to travel there not too long ago and have a community meeting, a meeting with the resi dents of Biss ett. The mine is not operating.

I said there in my speech to them that if I lived in Biss ett I would not plan as if the mine was going to re-open, but I would make plans for other economic development in that community because it just doesn't look too promising for any re-opening of the San Antonio Gold Mine in Bissett. There are still some problems left over.

The land that people live on and have their businesses, their houses on are still owned by the company, and we•ve now gone through the process of expropriating some of that land, and are finding a way of giving long-term leases or title to the reside nts for land that they were in effect squatting on, becuase it was company land at one time. They are in the process of deciding whether they'l l set up a community council, or not, in Bisse tt to run their own affairs locally right in that community. The Member for Portage la Prairie I would suppose gave us what we• re used to from this particular member.

He was disappointed because we didn't answer a question about how many Indian and Metis were employed in the CFI complex, and I could tell him that probably over half the people in the sawmill have better suntans than the rest of the people who work in the sawmill and there are a considerable number of Indian and Metis people employed in the saw mill, although I haven' t seen statistical figures, but my guess is over half in the sawmill; a lesser number in the more technical jobs thus far in the pulp and paper mill, but those that are in there are progressing quite rapidly up the scale of technical skills, and are doing quite well.

The Member for Portage la Prairie wanted me to come out and tell the people, tell the people, the good things that the Liberals have done for northern Manitoba. And I scratched my head; I sent notes to my staff; and asked my colleagues , is there something good ? Can we come out and say something, and lay it on the table, in terms of what the Federal Govern ment has done for northern Manitoba? And I'm having a difficult time, Mr . Chairman. I have to apologize for the Member for Portage, maybe he could give me a couple of hints. You know if he knows of something. One thing that has happened, Mr.

Speaker, - and, Mr. Speaker, I'm sort of joking there a bit you know. The Federal Government is involved in northern Manitoba; the Federal Government does happen to be Liberal. There are problems in the

2428 May 29, 1972 (MR. McBRYDE cont'd) ..... program that the Federal Government is involved in in northern Manitoba because Ottawa is such a long way away from Manitoba, and it' s even further away from northern Manitoba. We have for example the special ARDA Agreement with the Federal Government, and we have four different kinds of loan programs - and there was some discussi on by the Member for Rhineland, what have you done in economic development? It says here in the book people want it, There are four distinct loan programs. One of them is a special ARDA.

Of the four pro grams, three of the programs are provincially run, and those ones -I don't have the papers and facts and figures in front of me, unless they were since delivered - have issued a con siderable number of loans and are very active.

The first loan of the special agreement with the Federal Government and the Provincial Government, I believe finally went through last week, It was applied for in October; it was investigated, checked, went through Cabinet here, went through -- I don' t know --t reasury board in Ottawa, and last week I was still chasing down to find the cheque for the people who wanted to go fishing last winter, to use that money to go fishing I think that• s going to improve.

The Premier was in Ottawa, met with the Honour able Jean Marchand to discuss the problems with the special ARDA Agreement, but he had to go right to the top and try and unclog some of the bureaucracy that had developed in

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	29-4-94
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	29th 4th hansardpdf 94.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	a07659ad4e131ebe08fb8d23daa33153212da0d8

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