. , .... - .. PRELUU'NARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF AS SE!-1DLY FOR THE PERIOD: 3:00p.m. - 6:00 p.m. MONDAY, APRIL 4, 1977 .. . . ~ .

April 4, 1977, Tape 1538, Page 1 -- apb The House met at 3:00 p.m. f.lr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please. PRESENTING PETITIONS .. ·· . MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Lewisporte. MR. WHITE: Mr. Speaker, I rise to pres~nt a petition from 178 residents of Stoneville in my district of Lewisporte. Mr. Speaker, in case bon. members do not know where Stoneville is, it is part of what used to be / the North and South sides of Horwood which is on the Gander Bay Road between ~oyd's Cove and Gander Bay. Mr.

Speaker, I will read the prayer of the petition because I think it is quite concise ~nd points out clearly what the residents want done. "During the election of 197 5, l'Te, the residents of Stoneville were promised that the paving of the road through Stoneville would be giyen every consideration when the road from Birchy Bay to Boyd's Cove wouid be paved. This road was paved during the Summer and Fall of 1976. Hm.;ever, our road was not paved. - Ne now beg the government to fulfill its lvord and pave the road through our community.

Dusty road conditions are a hazard to health as well as to drivers and pedestrians. ~raffic to and from Port Albert has to pass through our community and when the ferry service from Change Islands to Fairwell is initiated~which I hope will be this year- the traffic will have to pass through Stoneville. ''We,the people of Stoneville,~nsider that it is about time the- provincial government did something for our cocmunity since it has not spent any money here other than maintaining and plowing the roads.

We are concerned that other paved roads will be worn out and paved tho second time before ours is paved at all. 42S3

April 4, 1977, Tape 1538, Page 2 -- apb MR. WHITE: "We,the people of Stoneville, feel that it is time the people in the outportsof Newfoundland saw some benefits from the taxes_~hey are paying and were made to feel that they are indeed part of Newfoundland ... SOME RON. MENBERS: Hear, hear! MR. lVHITE: Mr. Speaker, this is indeed a forgotten community in the Province. Besides the road that was built there I do not know of anything that has gone there with.respect to the expenditure of public funds. There are no artesian wells there or anything of that nature and I fully support this petition, Hr. Speaker.

I took the Minister of Transportation and Communications down there last year to meet with the a delegation of people. At that time he .made no promises to them but he gave t~ern an, indication he would see what he.could do in the upcoming budget. I hope, ~tr. Speaker, that the government sees fit to pave this road this year. I put the petition upon the table of the House and ask that it be referred to the department to which it relates. SOME HON. MEl1BERS : "MR. SPEAKER: MR. CALLAN: Hear, hear! The han. the member for Bellevue. Mr.

Speaker, any petition that has anything to do with upgrading, paving, roads and artesian wells and water and sewer and so on, I feel I have no other choice but get up and support it. Because .. 4234

.. ' ... -. ; .. ~.- ;;,._,:_ .. .' .. --::-_, .: ... - April 4, 1977 Tape no. 1539 Page 1 - ms Mr. Callan. as most members of the House are aware in the petition that -I presented myself, the district of Bellevue is in a very similar situation to the district of Lewisporte and other rural districts. .Mr. Speaker, I hope that the Minister of Transportation will find enough monies in his department this year when the budget is brought down or brought up or across wherever it comes from, and_- I hope that some of these roads that have been badly neglected in these ~reas of the Province will be looked after.

I support the petition. MR. SPEAKER: The hon.·member for Eagle River. MR. STRACHAN: Mr. Speaker, I would like to present a petition - MR. ROBERTS: Hold on now. There may be others on the other side~ Does the minister want to say a word on it? · I thought the minister-was rising to speak on it. ·- - · ·. --.- MR. MORGAN: ·MR. SPEAKER: MR. ROBERTS: No. The hon. Leader of the Opposition. Mr. Speaker, I apologize.

I thought the minister was about to stand to speak in support of the petition which my friend from Lewisporte presented in ~ehalf of the people of Stoneville in Notre Dame Bay and the district of Lewisporte. I simply like to say a word in support of it, Sir. I would think there are a lot of communities in the same position as the people in the community of Stoneville in that they do not have paved roads, and they would like to have paved roads, and I think, Sir, that is entirely a reasonable request for them to make, and I think it is one which ought to be granted.

Sir, I want to go on to say that I think the process would be much better, would be much more beneficial, much more effective, if the Minister of Transportation and Communications would announce each year exactly what is the government's intended programme for ·the year. And I believe, Sir, the minister is in a position to do this. One of his 4225

. -.. April 4, 1977 . Tape no. 1539 Page 2 - ms Mr. Roberts. innumerable predecessors in the present administration in that portfolio at one stage announced to the House - I think it was the gentleman from St. Barbe, as he now is. He was then the gentleman from St. Barbe South - announced that there would be a statement made of the roads. prQgramme· jn· detail. Well that particular commitment has not been honoured. And what I am saying now is that I would say to the minister-that I think he should ' ' ..- make a statement along these lines. The ministry are aware of the roads which they intend to do this year.

In fact,tenders are already being called for several projects. They have been in the~pers the last few days even though we were assured by the Minister of Finance the other day in discussing the Interim Supply Bill that no tenders would be awarded and no money would be paid .. until after the main Supply had been passed by the House of Assembly. But be that as it may, Str, the fact remains that - MR.

SPEAKER: Order, · please! t think I should point out to the hon. gentleman ~- .... that the prayer of the petition ~s_ faj_rly; precise, ·rhe paving of a road in Stoneville, would not in my opinion~open up the area of government policy with respect to the timing or method of announcement of the overall yearly roads programme. I think that would be much broader than the allegation of the petition. MR. ROBERTS: . Well thank you, Mr. Speaker. And the point I am trying to make is that I think that the community of Stoneville should get an assurance that their road·-;s to be dane.

And I think 1f the assurance is to be meaningful, Sir, it should be given at the start of a construction season as part of an owerall progran;ne for the year. And in my submission .. if it is not out of order, Sir, 1f I have understood Your Honour's .~ling co_r_re~~Jy,it i~ _in order for me to say that I believe the ministry could outline such a programme at this stage, including the road through the COiliUiity of Stoneville.

April 4, 1977 Tape no. 1539 Page 3 - nw Mr. Roberts. I think it is a straightforward request. I think it is a reasonable · ·request, Sir. Apparently a commitment was made. My friend from lewisporte did not say by whom,but it is reasonable to assume that it was made by a candidate for an opposing political faction. Sir, I believe that ts-an- additional -reason why it-should be-- honoured~ - 1 think, Sir, the petition should be granted, and I think it should be granted this year.~ SOME HON. f~EMBERS: Hear, hear! -~ MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Eagle River. MR. STRACHAN: Mr.

Speaker, I beg leave to present a petition on behalf of the people _~f . Cartwright, 112 signatures to the petition. And the prayer of the petition is as follows: 11That we, the people of Cartwright,hereby petition the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador, and in particular the Department of Transportation and Communications, Highways Division, to take complete _responsibility for ou~ main road wh.ich extends from the government dock to _ ~~r~ett~-·s Brook around the harbour!' The pray~r ca:ries on: ''The people of Cartwright ~ _- _- .

April 4, 1977 Tape No. 1540 NM- 1 MR. STRACHAN: tolerated inadequate road conditions long enough and due to the fact that we have been paying for registration and licencing of vehicles as well as the --gas taxes for years we feel that we should receive something in returnJ' In addressing myself to the prayer of the petition, Mr. Speaker, the community has no tax base whatsoever. The minister travelled with me last year and saw the roads which are in an extremely bad condition.

The community has the responsibility of maintaining six miles of road and they find that with these small grants that they get, especially the snow clearing grants during the Hinter,that they have very little funds from which they can maintain the road and the roads are deteriorating. In fact now there is nothing but pot holes and waves and bumps,and during the Winter ·the school buses cannot run, nor can an oil truck deliver fuel to the homes. The community has gone through SS,OOO already. And only two miles of the six mile road has been opened.

A third of the time the road' is closed and they find that it is almost impossible to continue any longer. We were grateful earlier on that the DepartmenE of Municipal Affairs did make an additional grant available to the community,and we accept that willingly. But we feel that the community itself and the community council is under· a great deal of pressure from the members_.of the community because they cannot maintain the roads and cannot keep them open for the school buses or for the fuel truck,and in Winter the cars and so on require shocks to be replaced every two or three weeks.

The community is asking in the prayer of the petition that the Department of Transportation and Communications, Division of Highways, take over the responsibility for the roads, to maintain the roads and put them into reasonable condition and to maintain the snow clearing during the Winter since the community can no longer afford to continue operating like this. 4293

- .. Al'l'il 4, 1977 Tape No. 1540 NM- 2 M1t • STRACHAN: I should indicate that there has been a great deal of controversy eacli~r on, especially last:year, where people in the community were starting to refuse to register their cars and they objected to the taxes they were having to ~ay for.gasoline,because they felt that they were getting little back from the department on this basis.

However, I feel that the whole situation needs to be resolved in a ~etter fashion and I would hope that the minister would reply to this reasonable request,in my view,and try to assist an isolated community who are trying to carry out their function as a community and trying to get their children to school in the reasonable comfort of a school bus and I have no hesitation whatsoever in supporting the prayer of this petition and I table it in the House and refer it to the department to which it relates. MR. ROBERTS: Hear! Hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Burgeo - Bay d'Espoir. MR. SU~ONS: Mr.

Speaker, just a word in support of the petition. The member for Eagle River (Mr. Strachan), the member for Lewisporte (~r. White), and I had the opportunity last January, a year ago now, of realizing the stark truth of 'tv-hat the petition conveys, that it is a part-time road. It is a road that only gets used part of the year. Indeed,on one occasion we had no fewer than four politicians in a box sleigh behind a ski-doo. 1 thought it would have made quite a picture, not necessarily for an election campaign but four politicians all in the same box.

We three,as I have mentioned,and the federal member for the area, Mr. Rompkey. But that mode of transportation is not only for politicians but also for the local residents and for groceries and OToduce and freight off the planes and anything or anybody else ~o bas to be transported around the community. And the way to do it in the Uinter there is not around the community but across . the community) !e~§U§• in the absence of a road they use the ice surf~r.P and fHa~ :i§ All very well for some months of the yea·r but there are periods Bl ifiter~u~tion ·

April 4, 1977 Tape 1541 IB-1 MR. SI}'}fONS: ~ the late Fall when the ice is forming and in the Spr~ng when the ice is breaking up. That aside,of course,a community the size of Ca~twright deserves at the very least a passable road connection to the various parts of the coro~unity. I am pleased to be able to rise and give my support to the petition presented by my colleague from Eagle River (}fr. Strachan) • ~~. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Port au Port. !'R. HODDER: ~r. Speaker, I also supp.ort the petition from my colleague for Eagle River (~r. Strachan) on behalf of residents of Cartwright.

One of the things that I have noticed in my district as was mentioned by the member for Eagle River (~r. Strachan) is that the tax base in many smal~ communities is not such to be able to provide adequate services for side roads and roads in the communities, and that many of the local roads in those communities are falling down and are in bacl condition because of the grants given to the communities . wh5.ch are not adeouate.

Now in one community,as an example, in my district, the snow clearing was done by the local community council or the local improvement dj.strict,but they had a piece of machinery which broke down and the repairs of that piece of machinery put the council into financial difficulties. Now yet in that particular community the main roads are ~one by the Department of Highways who have the facilities to repair machinery, who have the depots and one thing and the other.

Now I think the government would save money if perhaps the Department of Highways looked after many of those side roads and looked after many of the roads,whet~er they be sit~ roads or main roads,than to have councils ~etting grants,unable to look after them properly and having to sort of buy their own maChinery and use methods of fixing up their roads and puttin~ themselves ~ debt when this is not necessary at all. I think the Department of Highways in many of those rural areas sr.ould be J.ookinr- after the lor.al roads. I feel that probably thts is the . case not only in ~art~r.ht but in many

April 4, 1977 Tape 15&1 . IB-2 communities across this Province. I do support the petition and I hope that the minister will grant the prayer of the petition from Cartwright. :MP_. SPE..A.!CEP: The hon. 1'inister of Transportation and Cotm:lunications. MB_. ~'OPGA.~: ~~r. Speaker, not to take away from the petition that "''as tabled from the hen. member for Lewisporte (~fr. ~fuite), I did not speak on the petition, but because I was familiar with the situation I felt there was no need to speak on it.

But with regards to Cartwright, in fact any part of Labrador, any petition comes in I am al~~ys pro~pted to stand and ·say a few words on the petitions.

No~v in Cartl.rright the fact that the road there, I know, is in bad condition - I travelled the road last Summer - but the fact that that road is under the jurisdiction of the municipality,and the fact that the municipality has been receiving grants for that same road, called road revenue grants from the Department of Transportation over the past number of years, last Summer when I met with the council there I expressed the- not a recommendation,but a suggestion to the council that they make application to my colleague, the ?-.. inister of ?-!unicipal Affairs, to apply under the sixty-forty programme whereby if the council could supply forty per cent of the funds r·equired to upgrade the road a grant of the remaining sixty per cent 'tvould be paid by TI'Unicipal affairs.

In fact,it was annoying to me about ~pproxirnately three or four months after while sitting in my office-a delegation from Rigolet and the hen. gentleman for Eagle River (~r. Strachar.) was in my office the same titlle - \.•e get a call from the National press, National r.Bc in Toronto calls me in my office for me to co11'tnent on road conditions in Cartwright, Labrador. And my friend can recall this very conversation.

A reporter wondering wh~t the situation l>:"aS in Cartl·:rright, Labrador; a hi~ uproar, a national press conference, more or less.,\ national press release was made hy the counc:f.l conrlemninr- the govern~ent for the lack of acti~n in rartwri~ht. That w~s three t'lonths after I was in and met wit~ the council, made a sug~e!'ition to thel'l, ontl ined l-7hat could be d~ne and in what means it could he c'~ne" yet it was only after the contractor was in ! . .r-. -... - ~ .,. ·: .. .. u-- .-

April 4, 1977 'tatte .1541 IB-3 Cartwright _building an airstrip fo~ the Department of Transportation, with some funding from the fe~eral level of governmetlt that only after that contractor had moved out of Cartwright, moved away, closed dO~'"Il for the season, did the council feel like making an uproar over the situation when they kne~ then it was too late to do anything et that ttme of the year.

If they had made application to my colleague in ~unicipal Affairs,and could have used the eC!uipment that was available in the area that ~s being '-"Drked and being .used by a contractor building the airstrip, there was every possibility that S01Tlething coul~ ha,.re been done to correct the situation. But they wait·ed until the last minute, until after the - more than the last minute - until after the deadline,if you wish,

April 4,1977 Tape 1542 AH-1 MR. MORGAN: to create an uproar over the situation. And I indicated many times in my travels that it is the wrong way to get things done is that form of confrontation. If they work in co-ordi~ation with their MHA,and MHA with the ministry concerned,they get much more achieved.

The situation is in Cartwright - unfortunately it is under the Department of Municipal Affairs and Housing~ hopefully the council can put their heads together and raise the forty · per cent required and on the other hand hopefully sone funds . . - can be obtained while the contractor : is i~~artwright b~ilding the air strip and get some improvments to the roads. MR. SPEAKER: Ron. Leader of th~ Opposition. ~IR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, I would like to say a few words if I might in support of the petition from the people of Cartwright.

I think their request, Sir, is an eminently reasonable one~ Any of us who has had the opportunity to be in Cartwright is aware of the fact that the road around that community - and there is only the one road, there maybe a by-road·or two. I think there is one ~ning down by the school and another running the area l-There the Hudson Bay Store is located.

But· there is only the one main road through the coamunity and anybody who has been there knows that the road is' in absolutely terrible, terrible shape • In fact,! venture to say that if it ~~ere altr..ost anywhere else in the Province except in the isolated community - or an isolated community such as Cartwright,there would be such a concentration of media attention on it we would have pickets and demon~trations and all the techniques of which we have become so familiar over the year~. I think the people in Cartwright have been more than patient.

I am not so sure that it should be done entirely by the municipality. I think there is a long standing policy of the government of . ..

Atn•i1 4,1977 Tape 1542 AH-2 MR. ROBERTS: this Province, Sir, which the present administration have carried on,that the main road through a community is the responsibility of the old nepartment of __ Highways,now the Department of Transportation and Communications. And I would submit that the main roa? ~hrou~h Cartwright is the road that rWls from where Fecky's store used .tope. right around the harbour up to the mission which happens - the Grenfell Mission happens to be on the other side of Cartwright entirely,as the minister is aware. I think, Sir, that is something the ministry should do.

Not only is the need there,but all the more so beca~se of the factor pointed out in the petition, Sir, that the people in Cartwright pay their full share of road taxes · in the . sense that they pay the gasoline tax and they pay,I believe , the full registration on their cars,although I may be- Do they pay the full registration on their cars or do they get a special rate? MR. STRACHAN: No, they pay the full -registration. MR. ROBERTS: My friend from Eagle River says they pay the full registration on their cars and their motor vehicles.

And, you know,there cannot be anywhere else in the Province, Sir, where people pay the twenty or thirty · dollar charge, whatever it is, depending on the make of the car or the size of the vehicle, where they have so little road to drive upon. Well I think , Sir, that those factors taken together constitu~e a very strong case in support of this petition.

I think it is justified as well, Sir, on the grounds th~t this is the road which the school children use ,and there have ·been stories this winter,as the minister I know is aware, of a school bus having to be taken out of service because it was not physically possible for it to continue in service. So for all of these

April 4,1977 Tape 1542 AH-3 MR. ROBERTS: reasons together I think the people in Cartwright, Sir, have an excellent case, a very strong case, and I do hope , Sir, the minister has enough money in his-- estimates this year' · when they are approved by the House, has enough money to Rrant the .prayer of this petition and to ~sigr added departmental forces or to get a contractor to go in there to do the work, to provide the people in Cartwright with access . to - if not a first class road, if not a paved road at this stage, at least a decent gravel road.

I think that is little enough to ask for, Sir, and it is certainly little enough for the government to do. I support the petition. NOTICES OF MOTION MR. SPEAKER: Hon. Minister of Industrial and Rural Develppments. MR. LlTh'DRIGA.,.~: Hr. Speaker, I give notice that on tomorrow I will ask leave to introduce a bill "An Act·to Amend the Department of Rural Development Act 1973" ~IR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Justice. MR. HIC101'A."'7: Hr.

Speake~, 0(1 behalf of my colleague,the hon. the Minister of Finance,! give notice that I will on - tomorrow ask leave to move the House into Committee of ~-lays and Means to consider the raising of Supply to be granted to Her Hajesty. ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS FOR WHICH ~OTICE HAS 5EEN GIVEN MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Rousing. MR. DINN: Mr. Speaker, I have the answer to Question No. 208 asked by the hon. the-member for LaPoile and it appeared in Orders of the Day dated 15th March 1977.

April 4, 1977 Tape 1543 PK - 1 MR. SPEAKER: The bon. Minister of Justice. MR. T. A. RICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, in answer to Question No. 224 on the Order Paper of Tuesday, March 29, asked by the bon. member from LaPoile, the answer is: the number of offences, ten; the number of ju~eniles charged,ten; that is, for 1974, 1975 the number of - I am sorry let me start all over again, I have them backwards. Question No. 224, the question is, the number of prosecutions in the years 1974, 1975, and 1976 involving retail stores s~lling cigarettes to juveniles under the age of sixteen years.

The answer is whilst it ' is an offence under our Law for a store to sell cigarettes to a person under sixteen years of age, there is no record within the statis~ical analysis of numbers of presecutions. This is not to say that there were no prosecutions. The answer to Question No. 225,by the same hon. gentleman, from the same Order Paper, the question is, the number of prosections for the year 1974 and 1975 and 1976 involving branches of the Newfoundland and Labrador Corporation, that should be Liquor Corporation selling liquor and other spirits . to boys and girls under the age of eighteen.

There is no breakdown in statistics as to between retail brewers agents and the Newfoundland Liquor Commission, and that answer applies as well to Question No. 226. But the statistics for 1974 and 1975 with respect to the prosecution of juveniles are as follows: 1974- the number of offences, ten; the number of juveniles charged, ten; 1975, the number of offences, seventeen; and the number of juveniles charged, seventeen. ORAL OUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. ROBERTS: Mr.

Speaker, a question hopefully to the Minister of Industrial Development, but if not - he was here, in his absence perhaps I could address it to the Premier, Sir, because I think it is a matter with which the Premier is - well here is the minister now, Sir - a question for the minister.By way of,I trust,an appropriate prefatory remark, the minister earlier announced the grant of $1,000 to the concerned - what is their correct title? - The Concerned Citizens

April 4, 1977 Tape 1543 PK - 2 Mr. Roberts: Committee of St. Anthony to enable them to defray the expenses of their resistance, if you wish, to the Brian Davies-Greenpeace Group, and I am very happy to say they are peaceful in their peaceable resistance. The Committee have subsequently applied to the minister for an ·extra $1,000 because their expenses have amounted to $2,000. Can the minister tell us whether the government will agree to provide the extra grant that is necessary in that bills have been incurred and they must be paid? MR.. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Industrial and Rural Development. MR.

LUNDRIGAN: Hr. Speaker, actually I just received a very warm letter from the Committee in question, from Mr. Patey and Mr. Pilgrim, · the people who are the leaders of the particular movement in St. Anthony. Originally the decision was made about a month ago or a little more than that to assist the Committee. We knew they could incur dollars and outlay funds that they could not reallr cover, they ar~ all average working people. Mr. Pilgrim,! am·advised by the Leader of the Opposition,is working in the - MR. ROBERTS: Post Office. MR. LUNDRIGAN: Postmaster in the Post Office in the community. MR.

ROBERTS : He is not the Postmaster; he 1-1orks in the post office. MR. LUNDRIG.AN: He works in the Post Office, and there is nobody certainly in the community that could help fund that kind of an endeavour. I think they did a very commendable job. What we did when we approved the few dollars for the Committee, we approved $2,000, and we made an allocation of $1,000 in the hopes that that would cefray the costs that had been incurred. I have been informed, as the Leader confirms, that · there is excessive amounts beyond the amount of money so in essence to sum up - MR. ROBERTS: Beyond the $1,000. MR.

LUNDRIGAN: Beyond the $1,000. To sum up,we are quite prepared to make the other $1,000 available, and that again.~s a very small price to pay as a government for the level of involvenent, the responsible endeavour by the Committee in St. Anthony. We also, . .lf3·' '·~ ~ ~;· · ·

April 4, 1977 Tape 1543 ' PK- 3 ' Mr. Lundrigan: I might indicate, have worked with the Upper Trinity South Development Association that sort of tried with the development associations, quite a number of them,to re-enforce the leadership that was shown in St. Anthony, and we have been of some assistance to that committee as well. MR. NEARY: A supplementary to the hen. Premier, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. NEARY: Would the hen.

Premier tell the House if the government have yet put together the package for the worldwide advertising campaign to offset the adverse publicity that Newfoundland has gotten over the seal hunt? And if so,would the Premier tell the House if the gqvernment have selected an ~gency or individual to head this up and put together tha package? MR. SPEAKER: The hen. the Premier. "'3.q.S ':{ J' . .·

April 4, 1977, Tape 1544, Page 1 -- apb PREMIER N:OORES: Mr. Speaker, no,that is not completed yet. There is a fair amount of work being done on it,and it would be seen at this time ~pat it _would be co-ordinated through some agency within government rather than some outside agency. We may g~t advice from outside people but it should be co-ordinated, we are hoping to co-ordinate it from within government itself. MR. NEARY: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. HR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR.

NEARY: Would the Premier tell the House if the representatives of the ne\.,s media, the journalists that the Premier referred to in his statement in the House, have they been selected yet,and if so, would the Premier tell the House who they are? MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Premier. _PREMIER !'-100RES: No, there is no one selected as such, Mr. Speaker. There were three members of the media who were doing some preparatory work in· 'their own spare time and they have been very helpful.

And until such time as the total programme is before us, I think it would be wrong to say what role each or all of us are going to be asked to play. Because we could very easily go off on an ad hoc basis and do one thing today and something else tomorrow. But I think it is - . very important that we have a full programme of what needs to be done bet\'leen now and the next sealing season and also what government agencies~ federal and provincial, and what individual members of the House, Sir, the Fishermens' Union or whatever, what distinct role each and every one will play. MR. NEARY: UR.

SPEAKER: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. One additional supplementary, then the hen. the member for Port au Port.

April 4, 1977, Tape 1544, Page 2 -- apb MR. NEARY: Could the hon. the Premier give the House some kind of a ball-park figure of what the hon. the Premier thinks this publicity programme is going to cost? MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Premier. PRE!.fiER HOORES : It is impossible at the present moment, Mr. Speaker, until it is decided exactly what is going to be done. But I do not envisage that much outlay of monies.

I think it is going to take a fair amount of time on some people's part. ·I think the subject itself is of such public interest that television exposure, articles in - magazine exposure, that sort of thing, I think it is of such public interest that hopefully this \·rill be done just for its newsworthiness as opposed to a sales pitch and a campaign. MR. SPEAKER: Port au Port. MR. HODDER: The han. the member for A question for the hen. the Minister of Transportation and ~ommunications. Does the Department of Transportation and Communications intend to erect bilingual road signs on the Port au Port Peninsula? MR.

SPEAKER: The hen. the Minister of Transportation and Communications. MR. i-tORGAN: Mr. Speaker, as I indica ted last year, I think, while out in the area of Port au Port when a request came in that there was no intention, no consideration given to erecting bilingual signs. The reason given at -that time still stands,based on the fact that we are changing over our signs this year 1976 and 1977, the deadline is the end of September to change over all signs to the metric system,and because of the very heavy demand on our sign shop and the work crews in the sign shop, there will be no 43i0

April 4, 1977, Tape 1544, Page 3 -- apb MR. MORGAN: bilingua1 signs for this year either, 1977. MR~ HODDER: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. l-iR. HODDER: In view of the number of French speaking people on the Peninsula, and in view of the fact that French is the language of instruction of a number of students on the Peninsula, and in view of the fact that the federal government has designated the Peninsula as a bilingual area of Canada and provided a French language television station, how does the minister reconcile his refusal of bilingual signs? Because last year - MR.

SPEAKER: Order, please! I must point out to the bon. gentleman that the question as it developed did become argumentative. I would ask him to rephrase it in a orthodox manner. MR. HODDER: Ho\'T does the minister reconcile his refusal of bilingual signs since I have it in writing that he did refuse in writing last year forever, as far as I could see. HR. SPEAKER: The han. the ~1inister of Transportation and Communications. MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, any decision I make I hope is never to be interpreted as forever. The decision made last year - SOHE HON. HEHBERS: Hear, hear! MR.

HORGAN: - the decision made last year, Mr. Speaker, is the -same decision made this year, in fact made just recently as I earlier indicated because of ·the very heavy workload on the sign shop we are not able to get involved in bilingual signs this year. MR. HODDER: A supplementary, !:1r. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary.

April 4, 1977, T~pe 1544, Page 4 -- apb . MR. HODDER: Does the minister agree that French culture·in Newfoundland needs to be protected? l-1R. SPEAKER: The hon. the. Hinist;~r of Transportation and Communications. Z.1R. ~!ORGAN: f.tr. Speaker, I agree that the French culture throughout the country of Canada needs to be protected. But also, looking at the situation in Quebec, the English culture needs protection. S0?-1E HON. HE~·1BERS : Hear~ hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Eagle River. MR. STRACHAN: A question for the Minister of Industrial and Rural Development.

Could the minister confirm whether the three sites have been selected for the possible construction of concrete production platforms? And wou;Ld he identify those sites? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Industrial and Rural Development. r.m. LUNDRIGAN: Mr. Speaker we have identified a number of sites in the Province that lend themselves to the construction of the heavy technology 4312

April 4,1977 Tape no. 1545 Page 1 - ms Mr. Lundri gan. required for offshore oil and gas production. Now the work has been done by Nordco, our own corporation with the federal/ provincial corporation. The Cabinet have been made aware of the sites, but I do not think it would be appropriate at this moment for the government to announce sites, because it might prematurely build up anticipation and hope in areas where really the potential is more long-term than irnwediate.

But the sites have been identified, and in 1977 there will be some detailed engineering and soil testing and aggregate identification work done in the regions that have been selected as the prime sites. There are quite a number of · sites that we are very happy to indicate that have been identified as area$, maybe the only parts of the North= American East coast that lend themselves to this type of technological development. MR. STRACHAN: A supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR.

STRACHAN: Could the minister indicate whether oil related industries .have shown.any interest 1n any of these sites, whether they are oil related businesses and so on? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. minister. MR. LUNDRIGAN: Mr. Speaker, there has been some anterest. shown by --- some North American concerns where there are already existing oil an~_gas·offshore development.

There are a number of companies, Norweigan, French, British that have paid a particular interest to knowing and learning about the sites in our Province that can lend themselves to this heavy technology ··development we are talking about, literally hundreds of millions of dollars for one ~ieee of technology in this particular case. There are at least three large companies that are very, very progressive and advanced in their work in this area that have participated with the Province and the government 1n trying to carry out some of the assessment that is now being done by Nordco. ~313

April 4, 1977 Tape no. 1545 Page 2 - ms MR. STRACHAN: A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. STRACHAN: Could the minister indicate whether there is any legislation contemplated to prevent the inevitable land speculation which will most certainly occur around these sites and which may be taking place already in view of the fact·.that these oil related companies know the sites, although we do not know them? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. minister. MR. LUNDRIGAN: Mr. Speaker, we are aware of the problem.

The member quite properly points out one of the problems that is always a related problem, whether it is developing technology for offshore oil and gas or any other kind of major development. But certainly the Province would not want to mislead the people in any~w~y or the House in trying to give the indication that we are talkipg sometHing that is really of·an immediate kind of nature, and we are talking a number of years down the road.

And this 1977 season will really r_efine the kinds of questions the member has presented like in final determination and all of the kinds of hundreds of questions that need to be answered so that the Province can have a proper package to present to industry that might be interested in the Province. But this question is being determined and being anticipated by the government at the moment. MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: MR. NEARY: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary.

Would the minister care to indicate -to the House if the minister thinks now with the government on a c'.isaster course as far as offshore . oil drilling for gas and oil is concerned, if there will still be the same interest in building offshore platforms, with all the companies pulling out because of the government•s policy?

April 4,1977 Tape no. 1545 Page 3 - ms MR.SPEAKER: The hon. minister. MR. LUNDRIGAN: The premise of the member's question makes it difficult to answer. First of all,the government perhaps are taking the kinds of initiative - obviously the Opposition feel the same way - that it is absolutely essential to protect the resources for the betterment of the people of this Province, bearing in mind - MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: That is a phoney ·argument. Order, please! MR. LUNDRIGAN: Number two, Mr.

Speaker, and this is not a phoney argument - if we had had the same argument ten years ago we would not have to be in court today with the Quebec Hydro situation. But on the other side of the coin, aside from what happens off the coast of Labrador and the coast of Greenland, there are potentials in the North American context existing already that could bring about developments in this Province that we are working towards. So his question on the one side is not relevant and on the other side I cannot agree with thepremise of the question. MR. NEARY: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: One additional . supplementary. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, would the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs - I was hoping the Premier would be in his seat, Sir, so I could toss this one at him - would the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs tell the House if it is possible to give the oil drilling companies a guarantee that their exploration and production rights would be protected after a settlement of the jurisdictional dispute is over so that they can continue with drilling off our coast~ Is that possible, or is it not possible? This seems to be the hang-up, not than rlriving the oil companies away.

MR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Justice. MR. HICKMAN: It may be possible, Mr. Speaker, but the real issue is whether or not it is desirable. I am not prepared to decide that. 4315

April 4. 1977 lape no. 1545 Page 4 - ms MR. SPEA_!ER: -- The hon. member for Lewisporte followed by the hon. gentleman for Concepti on Bay South. MR. ~IHITE: Mr. Speaker, my question is directed to the Minister Of Transportation and Cormnunications, and it comes from the continuing and ongoing debate. between Ottawa and the · Province with respect to the operations of ferry services along the North East Coast of Newfoundland. Could the minister ·. -. ·~ 4318

April 4, 1977 Tape No. 1546 NM- 1 MR. ~liTE: indicate whether or not the provincial government has come to an agreement with Ottawa at the moment with respect to the operations of ferry services? MR.. SPEAKER: The bon. Minister of Transportation and Communiciations. MR. MORGA~: !ir. Speaker, I would not go so far as to say that we have come to an agreement with Ottawa, but on the vice versa. Ottawa has come to an agreement with us..

On the fact it seems that they have recognized our position, and our position has always been that these ferry services are to be maintained, hath the operational aspect and the capital outlay for facilities,-both on-the federal level of government.

And a threat was left hanging over our heads for quite some time,and it was left obvious from the action taken in British Columbia, our position was then and is now that these ferry services, because they have been maintained and operated by the federal level of government since · Confederation, and I am talking 'about the seven ferrY services in our Province, that they should be still continue to be operated under a subsidy with the federal government and the services maintained and the facilities improved.

I am of the impression from statements made by the federal member for Gander - · ~villingate, and I commend him for his interest in this matter, he has been quite helpful to me and to officials in my department, with regard to the pressing need for improved facilities that I think it was yesterday or this morning I heard him on a broadcast and voice tape saying that he had learned that funds are now being made avaiable by the Treasury .Board and Public tvorks to build new facilities. I am hoping that the facilities will include the required improvements at St.

Brendan's service, on the Fogo service and on Change Islands in particular. Change Islands is in desperate need of improved facilities. So in a very brief reply again, it seems that Ottawa has come to recognize that our position is the correct one, that these ~317

April 4, 1977 Tape No. 1546 MR.. MORGA.~: ferry services are the responsibility of the federal government and the.iridication is to date that they will carry on the operation of these ferries. MR. WHITE: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The original questioner. NM- 2 MR. WHITE: ~r. Speaker, my supplementary is to the minister with resp.ect .to the so-called recognition by Ottawa.

I wonder if the minister could tell me whether or not this recognition came in the form of 'Mriting before the March 31st. deadline, as I understand was sort of the understanding between Ottawa and the provinces, something would be arrived at before the end of March? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Transportation and Communications. MR. MORG~~: Yes, Mr. Speaker, there was considerable correspondence over the past three weeks both from my level, as Minister of Transportation,to my counterpart the hon.

Otto Lang, and also from the level of the Premier to the Prime Minister, and also from the level of my colleague, the Intergovernmental Affairs_Minister to both the Prime· Minister and the Minister for Transport in Ottawa, and in fact just one day before the deadline ot' five contracts to expire,and the five being St. Brendan's, Fogo, Change Islands, Greenspond and Long Island. These were due to expire, the contracts with the operators, March 31st. In fact the day before the deadline a telegram came to me from the hon. Otta Lang indicating that the subsidies will continue throughout 1977. }m.

WHITE: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The original questioner. MR. ~~TE: Mr. Speaker, my supplementary is to the minister. I wonder if he could tell the House whether or not he has been informed that the federal government now intends to construct new ferry terminals at all the locations that have been mentioned today? l~ether he has been officially notified that this will go ahead a~ I understand it will. 4318

April 4, 1977 Tape No. 1546 NM- 3 MR. SPEAKER: The bon. Minister of Transportation and Communiciatons. MR. MORGAN: No, Mr. Speaker, we have not been officially informed.

We have had some sort of vague indications that these improvements required will be carried out this year,but taking into context the statement made today I think by the Member of Parliament for the'area concerned that funds have been approved, we will not be ·persuing through the official channels to get confirmation that these new facilities in some areas, and im?rovements and modifications to existing facilities in other areas will be carried out in 1977. _MR. SPEAKER: The hen. member for Conception Bay South. MR.. NO!..AJ.'l: Mr.

Speaker, I had hoped to ~sk a question of the Minister of Finance and President of the Treasury Board, however he is absent, then· I would go to the Minister of Health, however he is absent; or the Minister of Manpower~and he is absent, so I will have to address the auestion to the bon. House Leader - or the Premier but he is absent. So I will go to the Minister of Justice and perhap~ the Minister of Jutice may be in a position to bring u~ up-to-date on the current situation regarding the strike at the Haterford Hospital? MR.. SPEAKER: The hen. Minister of Justice. MR. HICIQA'.AN: Mr.

Speaker, I think the only prudent thing for me to say at this time is that- the hon. gentleman from Conception Bay South as very observant in noting the absence of the various ministers that he has listed. - MR~ 'NOLA.~: Responsible. MR. HICKMAN: The reason for for their absence is I understand •that they are presently meeting and ordinary prudence and responsibility would dictate,that that is where it should be left at this moment except MR. NOLAN: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. The hen. member for Conception Bay South. MR.. HICKMAN: I have not finished yet. 431.9

April 4, 1977 Tape 1547 IB-1 fofP .• NOLftN: The hon. Premfer is standin~ in the doorway. 'P-'F. RICK!'.AN: I am not talking about the hon. Premier. Mr. NOLAN: But he is one of the ones I mentioned •. ~-~. RICKl-fA.:.~: The hon. ministers,who I saY. are not here right now., are meeting and I thjnk we can fervently hope and wish some success at their I:leetings. But that is where they are no~.;r. 1--fP .• NOLA..'l: A supplementary, ¥r. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR.

NOU.N: Perhaps the minister might be good enough J:o then tell us if the ministers concerned are rneet.ing with the union on this matter. !-~. SPEAKER: ¥F.. RICK¥ .AN: rhe hon. ¥inister of Justice. }'r. Speaker, they are meeting and it has been suggested that we should leave it at that if we are indeed anxious to see this matter resolved. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Trinity-Bay de Verde. MR. ROWF.: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the ~inister of Y.unicipal Affairs and Housing and it relates to individuals who are living in unincorporated communities and who work in incorporated communities.

Do these people who live in unincorporated communities and work in incorporated communities, do they have to pay service fees to the community in ~mich they are working for the full year although they may be only working part-time in that particular community? ~ .• SPF...A.KEF: The hon. ?A:inister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. ~ .• DINN: Hr. Speaker, it is !"Y understanding that if they are there for three months then they have to pay the service fees. MR .• P.OHF: _!':P... SPE.AKEP: "1'-'R. • P.C'~·TE : ~r. Speaker - A supplementary.

Is the Minister aware of the fact ~hat people who have l.'Orked for only eight ~·eeks have been asked to pav the service fees for the ~mole year? YP. SPFAKE'I;I : 'l'heo hon. ~·inister of !-'unicipal Affairs and Rousing. Y.P • I'l INN : ~r. Speaker, no,I am not aware of that fact and I will ~heck it out and ret back to the hon. meMber. 43ZO

April 4, 1977 Tal'e 1547 IB-2 }fR. • SPEAKE 'P : The hon. member for LaPoile followed by the hon. member for Lewisporte. }fR. NEA'~'Y : ~r. Speaker, again I was hoping the Premi~r woul~ be in his seat. But in the absence of the Premier I would like to toss a question at the minister responsible for Intergovern~ental Affairs because this is an intergovernmental matter. Would the minister tell the House if the government is now resolved to the fact that there will be no offshore drilling either off Labrador or off the Coast of Newfoundland in this calendar year? ¥.P.. HICKJA'R!: such fact.

The hon. ~inis. ter of Intergovernmental Affairs. ~r. Speaker, I do not think we are resolved to any There has been a public indication from certain companies that they are not prepared to drill offshore this year. They haye given various reasons and varying reasons. I have read with interest the comments of the hon. Alastair Gillespie,the Minister of Energy in Ottal-ra,and I can simply say that we are not on his wave length and most assuredly his position. is nQt in the interests of Newfoundland and Newfoundlanders. MR. NEARY: A supP.lementary, }!r.

Speaker. }IF .• SPE.A.KE'P : The original questioner, a supplementary. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, obviously the minister read ~-(r. Gillespie's statement. What does the minister have to say about "'-'r. Gillespie's comment, that it is a very shortsighted policy,that the provincial government here is cutting off its nose to spite its face concerning this Whole matter of offshore drilling? What does the minister have to say about that? It is a rather serious charge. MJt. SPE.AKER: The hon. Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs. MR. HICXM/I.N: It is not a very serious charge, ~~r. Speaker, because the bon. }!r.

Gillespie is not kno"m as a very fa.rsighted individual. }'R.. NEARY: 1-ffi • SPEAKE,., : _l":P • NF.A 'PY : A supplementary. A supplementary. l.Jould the minister be able to tell the House the names of the lawyers who are currently involved in preparing the govern~ent's case, the Province's case on offshore jurisdiction~! suppose that is coming

April 4, 1977 Tape 1547 I:S-3 ~'F. NEA'FY: before the Supreme Court? God only knows when. YJ'. SPEA .. l<EP. : The hon. Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs. 1-'R. HICKMAN : He are not going to fall into the trap that the Province of British Columbia fell .into, ~r. Speaker. Just in case anybody is taking notes to send off to our mortal enemies in th:f.s issue, Otta"t>ra, we will not fall into that trap. We have some very competent and able lawyers and there is at least one,particularly our lead counsel, ·- .

Who it would not be in the public.interest for me to state at this time because I have no intention of -letting .Otta't •Ta know some of the trump cards "tore have up our sleeve. It has been announced - you kno~·1, ~ would hope there is not a Newfoundlander born or living today who would be prepared to go out and lay out.on the table to Ottawa so that they can take a~vantage of . . ... - .. -- this Province "torhat our proposals are . ?~d our approach will be in this case. British Columbia made that mistake and we are not going to do it.

It was announced in th:i.s Rouse quite some time ago the names of some of the lawyers. One is ~r. Cabot }~artin,who is a Newfoundlander, a~d that should not be a handicap. We are very proud of the fact that he is regarded as one of the authorities in offshore disputes. Another

April 4, 1977 Tape 1548 PK - 1 Mr. Hickman: is Mr. Leo Barry soon to become ?rofessor Leo Barry, formerly a Professor of Constitutional Law at by far the best Law School in Canada, Dalhousie Law School - SOME HON. t-1EMBERS : Oh, oh ! MR. HICKr!AN: He will be a Professor of Constitutional Law~ which means that he too is no slouch in his knowledge of Canadian Constitutional Law. That is two. Mr. Keith Mercer,of my department, because in the final analysis it will go· through my department ,is involved' as has Mr. George B. Macauley, Q.c.· The g·entleman from Yale and another gentleman from Cambridge, o~e is Mr.

Jenkins, their names escape me, they have been doing a great deal of work on it, and then Professor Forrest, the hon. Leader of the Opposition - MR. ROBERTS : LaForrest, MR. HICKMAN: LaForrest, not Forrest - and then we will have a very senior expert counsel with many years experience in the Supreme Court of Canada who has done a _lot work on constitutional cases who will be the lead counsel when we appear in the Supreme Court of Canada, and I am not going · to let the feds - ·. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. HICKHAN: - and I am not going to let the feds know the name of that gentleman. AN HON. MEMBER: A supplementary.

MR. NOLAN: The Lord himself would not know. MR. SPEAKER: One additional supplementary from the original questioner. MR. HICKMAJ.'i: You hope we lose it, eh? - -·- ·-- ---- .. --·· --· ·- MR. ROBERTS: No, no! MR. NEARY: Would the minister tell the House if he has any idea when the Province's case will be ready for presentation to the Supreme Court of Canada? And could the minister give us some idea of how 'long it will take before this thing is finally settled ? Can we look forward iu our lifetime, that is what I am getting at - MR. :JOLAN: Before the hon. gentleman goes in the Hoyles Home.

MR. ~EARY: - to oil or gas being discovered off our coast? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Justice. 4323

April 4, 1977 Tape 1548 PK - 2 MR. RICKMAN: Well now, Mr. Speaker, that is a ~ather difficult question. The bon. gentleman from Conception Bay South (Mr. Nolan) says can we look forward to answer before the hon. gentleman opposite go to ~he Hayles Home? Will that case come on? I say, No, because most of them are ready for it now. SOME RON. ME1BERS : Oh, oh! MR.. HI CKMA.-'{ : But be that as it may,the position right now is that the Minister of Justice of Canada, Mr. Basford,asked if we would be prepared to sit with his officials, with his solicitors and start working on the terms of reference? MR.

NEARY: Only the terms of reference - MR. HICKMAN: That is right. Because we are 'not - MR. NEARY: Why do you not go and negotiate a settlement, boy, and get it over with? . AN HON. MEMBER: We are not gain~ to rush • MR. HICKMAN: That is right, we are not going to rush~most assuredly not. And if hon. gentlemen - MR. NEARY: Procrastination is the thief of time. SOME RON • M&'ffiERS : Oh, oh! MR.

HICK!·Wl: If bon. gentleman are at all aware ·of what happened in the British Columbia case, what happened there was that the Province of British Columbia refused to negotiate on the terms of reference with the Government of Canada • The result was that the terms of reference that went before the Supreme Court of Canada were those prepared and submitted by the Government of Canada - MR. NEARY: You are getting hoodwinked by the lawyers, boy! MR. HICKMAN: - and that was a tragic m!stake, and it is a mistake that this Province will not make nor will this Province be a party to. ~IR.

NEARY: The biggest mistake you are making is having a bunch of lawyers involved. Get them out of it. MR. HICKMA.L"'t : Secondly, Mr. Speaker, we have indicated, and I indicated as late as two weeks ago when the bon. Ronald Basford P.C., that means Privy Councillor, when he was in St. John's and met with me, I assured him that our solicitors "t:~ere ready, villlng, and able, 4324

April 4, 1977 Tape 1548 PK- 3 MR. HI£KMAN: ·and will continue to work with him on preparing a terms of reference, a reference which would be satisfactory to us and would be guaranteed to insure that all the issues from Newfoundland's point of view were properly put before the Supreme Court of Canada. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. HICKMAN: At the same time, Mr.

Speaker, - as part of our --·-···-----·· research - we asked many, many months ago if the Government of Canada would would with wai've for 'our benefit, 'and for the benefit of our r . --· ~ . researchers,the so-called secrecy rule so that we could have a look at some of the documentation that is in the hands of the Government of Canada with respect to this issue. And a~ of today they have not said -·yes. And, you know, as far as I am concerned, and as far as the government of this Province is concerned,on this issue the phrase is 'No surrender" and we are not going to - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR.

HICK.~: - we are not going ~o sacrifice the position of this Province, and ~f the Government of Canada is prepared to co- operate, MR. NEARY: Oh, oh! MR. HICKMAN: If the Government of Canada is prepared to co-operate with us, we will co-operate with them in ensuring that the terms of reference are such as will bring all the issues before the Supreme Court of Canada. ·MR. NEARY: We will all be in the Boyles Home •••• ~~~~~---------- SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh~ MR. HICKMAN: Now what the outcome will be I do not know. But I hope, I would hope, Mr.

Speaker, that there is no bon. member in this House,because if there is, he or she is all alone. MR. NEARY: Start waving the flag now - MR. HIKCMAN: - He or she is all alone who would be prepared that ~e surrender in any way, any rights that we have without having this adjudicated by the Supreme Court of Canada. ~~e are not going to do it, and if there is 4325

A~ril 4, 1977 Tape No. 1549 MR. H!Cl(}I'A.~: any bon. member of this House who wants to surrender these rights I say,Stand up now so your fellow Newfoundlanders can condemn you. AN HON. MEMBER: All lawyers, from the Law Society. NM- 1 ~. SPEAKER: Order, please! I must direct hon. gentlemen to my right that they may not and should not interfere with answers in that manner. The hon. member for Conception Bay South I had indicated I would recognize and the time being so short it will have to be now. MR. NO~~: Mr. Speaker - MR. STRACHA...'i: Let roe ask it. Yield to Strachan. MR. WHITE: MR. NOLA..~: friend.

Yes,if I may I would like to yield to my hen. ORDERS OF THE DAY: MR. HICK}~'i: Order 7, Bill no. 25. MR. SPEAKER: Order 7, the adjourned debate on Bill No. 25, adjourned by the hon. member for Eagle River. MR. STRACH&~: I get the opportunity to speak now1or forever hold my peace. Limited, The bill concerning the Burgee Fish Industries which my friend from LaPoile (Mr. Neary) was so expansive last Friday on, s-eems to ·me -to be c:omplicated in a sense that it should be really two bills. It should be-split in two.

Because we feel very strongly in the first part of it that you would most definitely vote for it on the basis that it is a benefit to Burgee, that Burgee requires such a fish plant and it has a benefit to the people of the area and the fishermen and the future of the area. So we have no argument whatsoever on that basis. We feel that we are happy for the people in Burgee and that there is little ar~ument that the people need it. However, the management agreement which is combined into it, if it was a seoarate bill we almost definitely would vote against it. And we have looked

Anril 4, 1977 Taf?e No. 1549 NM- 2 ~. STRACHAN: at some of the reasons why we would vote against this part of it,and we find out for instance that the plant was bought from Lakes for $2.6 million or close to $3 million, and there will be put into it by the time the nlant is completed another $9 million, making a total then of $12 million for the fish plant at Burgee. Our argument qere is that the manageme~t clause gives to the company, National Sea Food, who essentially are Nickersons and Sobeys,and behind them are Westons, it gives to them almost a complete mononoly on the fishery of the .

Burgee area. ·~·1e find, for instance ,that they have a management clause in which all they are putting into it, the government have put in $12.million, but all they are putting into it is $500,000, not as direct capital but $500,000 which they are loaning into the o~eration. And we feel very definitely here that this is totally wrong, that what they are being given is a virtual gi~_t.

What 'tve are doing here is that we have given away a great deal of other resources, fifty-t'tvo per cent of the Island belongs to outside cor?orations, · forty-one per cent of Labrador is conceded a'tvay or rented a'tvay to outside corporations,and what we see happening with this bill here is that under the guise of a management clause we see the fisheries of this Province beinr given away to another corporation,and a corporation not from within the Province but a corporation from without the Province.

They assume no losses whatso~ver, should there be losses in the next seven or eight years they assume none of it. All they are responsbile for is the management. We find that they get a mana~ement fee, and I may be wrong on this, I have a figure of S75,00n a year plus five per cent of profits, yet when I look through the management structure here I see a figure of forty per cent of the profits. However, it be where it may, it is immaterial what profits they take out of it. MR. LUNDRIGAN: They get that for being a partner in the company. 4327

Anril 4, 1977 Tape No. 1549 NM- 3 ~. STRACHNl: That is their nartnership, is it, the forty ner cent? Be that what it may, what does haopen is that this virtually gives away to an outside corporation ..:. 4323

April 4, 1977 '!ape 1550 IB-1 ~'P. STP.ACHA.T\l : a great deal of the fisheries of this Province. The tl'lember for LaPoile (~r. Neary) tl'lade the case that surely there are -people in Newfoundland~or Net-1foundland businessn:en, 1~e~o1foundlan~ fishermen, fish processors, almost anyone who would love to ~et a sweetheart rleal like th:fs. Anyone could,given this kind of deal,operate But what we have got to do is we have got to ~o outside and bring in an outside corporation and give to them a sweetheart package.

They assu~ no losses and in seven or eight years time they have an option to buy, something into which the government has put $12 million. They can get out of it at any time they wish. They pick up their $75,000 plus five per cent,and if you examine the structure of these companies you can see that they also have a marketing package. So what in es~ence happens is that a company is picking up a management fee,and a very fat rnana~ement fee for running it. They are also purchasing and taking the fish products and marketin~ it through their own chain.

So that Hestons in the end lvill be marketing the fish and the fishery products coming out of the Burgeo fish plant. It means therefore that if they wish to, they could. structure back as most vertically integrated companies do, they could structure hack so that the operation in Burgeo never ever made a profit. They could make it so that it always ju~t -. bro!t!: __ ~_y_e~. ' - ~r .. if the most they get is a profit, it ~as a profit Which fed them, just enough, no more.

And they would pick their profit up not at Burgeo and not ~7ithin this Province,but they l-muld pick their profit up at the -~nd point when they sell the fish . roducts which leave this Province. Therefore th~y could ah.•ays keep it in a situation in '-''hich the Rurgeo fish plant "torould always be requiring government subsidies, always reauirin~ government funds, always requiring government eapital,while they,at the other end of the ileal in the marl--etplaee in the states or whatever else they are sellinr,,are picking up the profits Which should really show in the books within this Province.

April 4, 1977 Tape 1550 IB-2 .,PO!-!E HON. }fE}(BEJ'S : Rear, hear! ~. NEARY: ~11 major decisions being made by some grouo T_~p_along. 'fo!P • S T~ACHAN : Sure. I mean totally this hands it firmly into the National Sea and firmly into Hestons' hands~ exactly how they want to operate this. Virtually l·rhat has happened is that the government has handed it to them ano said, "Here,you run it for us. We do not want to run it.

You run it for us and here is a sweetheart mana~ement deal." We are not arguing the fact that the plant should not be there or the fact that the people of Burgee need i.t and we ~1ill vote for that. There is no question. But what we are saying is . - -··· ··- - . . . - thaE _if_ ~his was split into two,where the Burgee fish plant was one bill and the management contract l·7as another bill, we would vote for the first but "t·Ye would not vote for the second. Because what it does is it gives a~my ,as everything else has been given a~ray, it now starts to give away the fishery.

What is more important is that ~men we start looking at the ~2keup of some of these companies we will find that what we have in this Province,apart from a few independent Newfoundland fish processors,is the fishery · virtually . in the hands~ firmly in the hands of two or three or four major corporations.

When you look behind the company structures you ~·ill find it to be ~olestons,or a corporation from the States, or a corporation from elsewhere who firmly have the fishery of Newfoundland in their hands, corporations . ~.;ho ,if government subsidies are not prepared to come into it,can up and leave this Province and leave the fishery and leave that area absolutely devastated. ~olhat ~re are stating here is that we believe,firmly believe, that this plant here could be run by people from this Province,trained in this Province, l>Tith assistance and certainly if all is acouired for a $12.5 million ~ investment as a half a million dollars, surely there are some ' . people in this Province who can put u-p half a million dollars for a $12.5 million investment.

April 4, 1977 Tape 1550 IB-3 -MR. NEARY: That is only b~_way of. a loan,you know. ~-· ST'PACP.MT: That is to s2y ,it :f.s only by ~o1ay of a loan. The business is to pay that back to them. In fact in seven_.or eight years ti.me they virtually have a plant witlt an option to purchase . which they have pa_id nothing for, tbey have put no capital into, and they have picked up the produce, taken it to the marketplace and picked up the profit on the ~arketplace. Furthermore there is a situation be:ln~ create~ herie that I guarantee you this company

.) Apri 1 4, 1977 Tape no. 1551 Page 1 - ms MR. STRACHAN: wflf come back in two or t~re_e year's time, "tiio·or · three years at the latest,and come back and ask the government that because we do not have the draggers.,-we only have five on the list here- because we do not have the draggers to supply the fish plant in Burgee we, therefore, ·require more draggers in order to supply the fish plant. And I will guarantee that it will show that they are operating at a sixty per cent or a seventy per cent capacity. Because they are operating at that capacity they are not making a profit.

Their profi~s are being picked up at the other end. And they will indicate therefore that there is a need for trawlers to keep the Burgee fish plant going. The next thing is we will be asked to make another investment, at $3 million each for trawlers to supply the Burgee fish plant or they will close down and leave. So what we got is a situation in which ·this company has got a beautiful sweatheart deal, _as·· far as we are concerned, . a beautiful sweatheart deal in trying to operate that fishery down in Burgee.

It has been taken away from the Province like another resource, taken away from the Province and handed out in a sweatheart deal to the fat cats from elsewhere. And we object strenuously to that part. And as we say - and I clearly repeat it time and time again - we are not against the bill on the basis that it gives. a fish plant to Burgee or that the people in Burgee can work. But what it does indicate is that the fisheries of this Province are being handed over to a few, a very few national, multi ·national corporations who are eventually going to control the fisheries of this Province. MR.

NEARY: Our people are going to be· sold ir1to slavery• multi nationalism. MR. STRACHAN: Sold down the drain. This is a typical example of being sold down the drain, because we do not have the guts to go and do it ourselves. MR. Hl CKMAN·: MR. NEARY: Are ycu against Booth? Am I against Booth? =

April 4, 1977 Tape no. 1551 Page 2 - ms MR. NEARY: Booth will pull out whenever they feel like it, too. They threatened to do it the other day. MR. STRACHAN: Yes, they ~ill threaten. MR. NEARY: B. C. Packers will haul out. Atlantic pulled out. MR. STRACHAN: What it is indicative of is that these companies and corporations will get us into such a situation and into such a bind that they will threaten to pull out and when they threaten to pull _out we have to put more government money , more subsidization in order to keep them floating.

Meanwhile I still say, and I say again,that these companies do pick up the profit not within this Province, but they pick up the profit outside at the other end, and that is the whole idea of vertically integrating your companies. That is the whole idea of why Weston's would not really care whether they made a profit here or not. What Weston's want is the produce to sell in the marketplace to pick up the profit there. And this is our major argument ori this part here. .

We feel also that - considering some of the statements from the' Minister of Fisheries in which he has stated these plans require a certain quantity of fish, and the process of exclusive franchises, exclusive monopolies; a monopoly system is the only way it can work to keep the Burgeo fish plant going,or to keep National Sea Food out at -Port au Port going,or to keep somebody else going somewhere else - eventual~y says to every Newfoundland processor, independent processor, eventually says to them ' that you cannot operate in that area,only the multi national· corpo~~tions can operate.

We think this is totally wrong,. the splitting up of the coast, the splitting up of the fisheries and feeding it solely and totally to a multi-national corporation with no feeling for the Province, no intention when it runs into hard times of .maintaining itself ___ · there, but will up and out of here and leave us holding the empty plant and nothing to do. We then are required to put more money back into it. 4333

April 4. 1977 Tape no. 1551 Page 3 - ms Mr. Strachan. I also disagree with the basis that if the Province are going to put money in, and this amount of money in, then essentially the plant belongs to the people of the Province. AN HON. MEMBER: .. Wha,t _ a~out management? MR. STRACHAN: I will get to that. Management is no problem. __..,_,_ You can find management people. But under this business here in which your management is \~eston•s Organization, you can train or you can bring in management, if you have to,to train your own people or you can train people here to run that plant.

There are a lot of people here who have the ability within this Province to run that fish plant. I defy the fact that people here cannot do it. Charlie Martin from Bonavista went down to Atlantic Fish in Marystown, in Mooring Cove,and Charlie Martin essentially ran the Marystown fish plant for Atlantic fish. Charlie ~tartin did well at running the plant. The situation here - there are plenty of people around who have the ability, the _e~p~rience, the expertise who could go in there and operate a fish plant like this. . ~ .'

April 4,1977 Tape 1552 AH-1 MR. STRACHAN: Anyo~e -o~! I am not saying for government, not at all, absolutely not. I am not saying that gov~rnment should go in there. I am not talking about nationalization or provincialization, lvhatever you want to call it. Because I disagree with the process of government owning and operating businesses because what is done, whenever it is done,it always goes under, its always in there because it is forced to get in there and forced to be in there. I am not stating that at all.

But what I am stating is that this management structure is a sweetheart deal for a corporation outside of this Province. And this management structure would have been better if it had been for - someone within this Province who could operate the fish plant and the produce sold in the marketplace~and the profits and the revenue from the profits used to pay back the initial investment put in here by the government. The government has essentially put in $12 million and will virtually get none of it paid back.

And I guarantee that will happen because companies organize their accounts, their books are made that way,and I will guarantee that not much of that $12 million will ever be paid back in a seven or eight year period of time. In fact here,! think, was an excellent opportunity to get the people of Burgeo involved in the fish plant themselves, to get them involved even maybe in a participatory fashion.

Some of our real problems with labour is because we push labour into an adversary position. we nush them up against the wall and we do not look at the point of view that labour is as fundamental a part of a business as capital is~and _as is the resource. There are three factors, the resource, capital and labour. And we have always had the

April 4,1977 Tape 1552 AH-2 MR. STRACHAN: tendency to play down labour and think only of the capital and the resource. This is why we have the st:r~f~ within the labour field that we have nowadays because we always push labour down and hold them to an adversary field. As soon as you have labour involved, directly involved in an operation,you lvill find that labour immediately change their attitude because they nm-1 have a stake in it, they now have a feeling that they have something to contribute.

And if we could do that we have an excellent opportunity, starting with the Burgeo Fish Plant,to tear up the whole management contract __ here, build a plant , find some Newfoundland fish processor or someone who will manage it- and there are people available .:. ask for accountabilities in that . the Province is putting the money into it, ask them to account to the Province for any capital expenditures,and allow the people of Burgeo to buy shares, to have some stake in the company themselves. Because if they do that, and this is not a socialist idea or a left-wing idea. ICI in Britain do it.

Some companies in the States have a package deal for the workers in which they buy into the company. They feel then that they have part of the company~and I guarantee that if we got to the stage of having a labour force in Burgeo and the fishermen of Burgeo having a stake in their own company, having a stake in their own business, that you will not see strikes in Burgeo, you will not see labour strikes. You will see high production, higher production that you will by seeing an outside corporation force the people of Burgee into some sticky position sometimes because they will not give them a raise in pay.

And I think that this would have been a good point, that . this year with the 200 mile limit, the re-distribution of the fishery resource, this lo7ould have been a good point for .. ~ ...... ...,. .:.-:...;~~

.· April 4,1977 Tape 1552 AH-3 MR.

STRACHAN: this Province to turn around and say "This is our fishery, it is going to be hand~ed by us, not by outside corporations; it is going to be handled for the benefit of the people of this Province and we are going to retain control" But what this ~ill does, and I cannot see hmv anyone can think any different 7 _what this bill does is essentially take our fisheries, a large chunk of our fisheries and hand it into Weston's _hands through the con~lo~eration of Sobey's and Nickersons and National Sea, hand it into their hands and say "Here, you take it, and you run with it and you make what you can out of it" We are virtually , absolutely, totally giving away our resource.

He have given away our minerals,and now we are giving away the fishery because the deal is totally and absolutely a sweetheart deal. And I see the Minister of Hunicipal Affairs disagrees. Well it is a point of view that ! -would like to hear him debate and possibly he may want to give a few words on that. But I cannot see how you can look through this bill and think any different. The amount of capital that that corporation is putting in is next to nothing, absolutely next to nothing. The capital is bein~ provided by this Province and by the federal government .through DREE and Ottawa and so on.

So what we are saying here then is that there are two sides to this bill. We will vote for it1 there is not question of it. I certainly will .:~. ~ · ~'-~ . ... '··'-• .r

April 4, 1977 Tape 1553 Pk - 1 Mr. Strachan: and I would imagine most members will, almost all members, You would be foolish not to vote for it, Because how can you po anything else for the people at Burgeo. MR. NEARY: We are in a real bind, We 'have to vote for i~ = - . MR. STRACHAL'l: Oh sure, absolutely. MR. NEARY: because · ~e want to help Burgeo : MR.. STRACHAN: But if this bill had been split into two,a Burgeo Fish Plant bill,which we would vote for absolutely; and if it was a bill in which there was a management contract we would totally and absolutely vote against it. SOME HON • Mfu'1BERS : Hear, hear!

MR. STRACHAN: And that is why I say that by bulking it together the government is going to get us to vote for a bill which essentially takes the fishery of Newfoundland, and takes it and puts it into the hands of outside multi~national corporations. I think we should be jealously guarding, we should be jealously guarding our fishery, we should ~e ruthless in its management, absolutely totally ruthless, not like the past, and .we should never change from our path. !f,'we are going to be totally ruthless as the Minister of Justice states about our offshore position - . . MR. NEARY.: Let us be consistent. MR.

STRACHJI.N: - in a much more tenable position, then let us be consistent with our fisheries. MR. NEARY: That is right. MR. STRAC1Wi: Why do we not take the same ruthless position with our fisheries? What we are doing is virtually giving it away, handed it over on a plate to multi national corporations. And then the ..... , }fj nister of Fisheries stands up and states that no small processors in Newfoundland can operate close to these big businesses because he will be taking the fish away from these big businesses.

It essefit1ally removes all initiative. all initiative from the people of Newfouhdland who had developed the fishery, and I should say, of course, Labtadof t but we are talking l!ere.

April 4, 1977 Tape 1553 PK- 2 MR. NEARY: What they say is this,they ask a rhetorical question- woul~ you perfer to have National Sea or T. J. Hardy? Well,I would rather ~ave T. J. Hardy any time, a dozen of them. MR. STRACHAN: Correct. The point of view is always to say,face·us - MR. SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS): Order, please·! It is quite irregular for an hon·. member to interrupt another hon. member who is addressing the House. He may ask if the hon. member may yiel&, that is quite in order. But to interrupt without so asking is quite irregular. ~ The hon. member from Eagle River. MR.

STRACHAN: Yes,the argument that we have here, and an argument that is always thrown back in our faces is, What is wrong do you not want National Sea? AN HON • }1EMBER: That is right. MR.. STRACHAN: Or do you want to kick them out? Do you want the fisheries to go down? Well I do not know, sometimes I feel that we may be even better off in the long term without National Sea. I sometimes feel that.

You know, I sometimes feel that even if we did have a few bad years without them it may at least give the initiative to the fish processor~ within Newfoundland,who will have a stake in Newfoundland, who are going to remain in Newf~undland, who will stay with it come hell or high water, it may give them an initiative to develop a fish processing industry which means something.

Now I am not stating -.I think there are room for both::::-- b·ut I am sure that many, many companies if they saw the deal,many, many Newfoundland fish processors if they saw the kind of deal that National Sea is getting from this government,then they would be terribly, terribly angry.

I notice, for instance, that many of the small-_time processors, and I do not have the minister's speech, he seems to have taken it to task, in parts of it, that they have some archaic viewpoints - the !-!inis ter of Fisheries, I am sorry, the Minister of Fisheries takes them to task if they have some archaic viewpoints and some of the small fish processors in this Province. And I wonder

April 4, 1977 Tape 1553 PK- 3 Mr. Strachan: · exactly how much help, how much money goes into upgrading their fish processing facilities. I wonder what Arthur O'Brien, for instance, has got directly in the form of_a lar£e. huge subsidizes? Or P. J. Hardy, I lJOnder what he gets in this process? What we see is that the multi national corporations, because of their smoothness, their slickness, their ability to negotiate - MR. NEARY: They are slieveens. MR.

STRACHAN: - and because they treat us in many ways like hicks, that they can come down here and they can get the sweetheart deals and manage to tie this up~when the small·tim7 processor here we do not have faith in him or believe him when he comes in and wants to develop a fishery,or to get in and develop another type of fish product,or try to diversify the fishery,which is the only answer for this Province. I still maintain that the only answer in the long term for this Province is not totally the huge deep-sea dragger fleet, but it is the inshore fishery.

It is a most economical catching unit is the inshore fishermen, an inshore 4340

April 4, 1977 Tape 1554 JM - 1 MR. STRACHA.~: fishery tied to the small processing plant. Again the Minister of Fisheries nails us on this and said~ Yo.u __ cami_ot have a small processing plant in every community. We.have never stated that,but what he is stating is that you cannot have a small processing plant wherever there are large corporations. In other words,what he is doing is chasing the small businessmen out of this province and what we need to do is develop it. MR. ROBERTS: We need more small processing plants. MR.

STRACF~~~: ~?hat we need to.do is develop the entrepreneurs within this province, the private businessmen, the people who - are prepared to gamble, the people who are prepared to take the risk and stay with it and stay here. I guarantee that giving Weston's two or three bad years,and this is all written in here,and-they can walk away from it anyway. I think the whole t .a.f~ taken with it and to put them together in this rationalization of the fishing industry is totally wrong. l.Je .are going down the wrong road totally and absolutely.

We start off with joint ventures ,.then we go to chartered vessels,and nmv we come full swing around and say we are going to start develo?ing the insho~e_fishery. Then we start talking about the Hamilton Banks going to be closed off. How can you ever turn around and say you want the Hamilton Banks to be closed off when you are talking about joint ventures at the same time,or chartering vessels from Europe to go and fish the ice infested water? There is no sense to it. There is no policy. There is no direction. Everything goes, wanders around here, hither and thither. There is no direction to it.

What we need to do, and it may be painful, but what lve need to do is forget the short-term answer,or ~f we have to try and balance some short­ term solutions-but that is not the way tc balance your short-term solutions-and look down the road so that you give the opportunities to the Newfoundland fishermen, the Newfoundland fish processor and 4341

April 4, 1971 Tape 1554 JM- 2 MR. STRACHAN: develop it. If we are going to develop like Iceland like we tout around so often! ,then we must have a very . -- wrong idea of how Iceland ~-1orks. If w.e are going to develo'!) them like Norway,then we still must have the wrong idea because this is not the way the Scandinavian countries have develop~d their fishery. And this is totally and absolutely a throw it out, giveaway. It is almost like government over the money, on the money,and for the money,rather than government of the people. It is giving everything right_into the hands of the multinational corporations.

MR. NEARY: Heads you win, tails I lose. HR.. STRACHA..~: You are all-lays going to lose. The fishermen of this province continually under this kind of thing will lose. Now ·just in case my remarks are interpreted I tdll repreat it again: We are not against the bill and the building of the plant for Burgee. We absolutely support it. It is of total benefit for the people there. It is needed, desperately needed. It will give a viable industry, create a viable industry down in Burgee and as such it is therefore necessary.

But what we do not like is the sweetheart management contract,and I still state that if someone can show me, can go through there and indicate to us where there is no sweetheart deal there,then I would be very interested in listening to the point of view. I hope the minister can reply to some of t~e points that 'tve ·raised,reply to the management clauses, reoly to the fact that they are vertically integrated companies.

And I do not think that this province has ever been able,or many times has not been able,to understand how these vertically integrated companies often do not want to show a profit within this province but they .want to pick it up at the other end. Everything is funneled or set aside and pushed into subsidiary comoanies, pushed into consulting fees, hidden where they can pick the profit up where it is not taxed or where they can show that the business is 4342

April 4, 1977 Tape 1554 JM- 3 MR. STRACHA..~: running down, that it needs another injection of government money,and they come back to us again and three years dovm the line we give them . another $3 million of government money because we do not want to see Burgee close down. All they need to do is make a false hue and cry, say the business is going on the rocks~and come back to us, fight it for a few months and ~ve put in another $2 million, $3 million without any of their direct capital going in. MR. NEARY: Or if they do not give us .four or five draggers we will pull out. HR. STRACHAN: Oh yes,or threaten.

You know the idea. They get very smart and very clever and what we should be doing, what we should be doing is developing .a strategy, developing a negotiating strategy for all of these multinational corporations so that we tell them -we are the bosses, we are the rulers, we are handling all resources, no more concessions, no more shoving the profits down at this end and picking them up outside of this province. We want to see the real profits within this province and I " 133 ... 3 ~ •j;,

April 4, 1977 Tape 1555 LB-1. 1-fR.. STRACHAN : we r,.Till get it within this province. If you cannot give it to us we do not want to see you. tole do not want to .deal vith you.

I do not intend to get into other topics.! feel strongly about this; on min~ral resources I feel strongly about it and offshore oil and gas,because whenever you are involved in companies which are involved from the womb to the tomb, from birth to death, and that is what these companies ar~ Westons are now involved in catching the fish and processing the fish and shipping the fish out and marketing the fish and eventually sell it directly to the uonsumer at the end. So they now have control of the whole chain. What profits they do not l·Tant to show here they can pick up at some other end.

Exactly the same as the oi.l companies do when they do not want to show a profit at the crude oil end • They do not want to show a profit at the ~as going into the car. They get for instance less than one cent per gallon~oil companies in return,Whereas the government takes most of it in taxes. ·What they do within the refining process,and a control of the refining process,handle it totally and can manage to hi~e · their profits.

E:r.actly the satTle here, Weston's have nor,.r got full control through National Sea on the Port au Port Peninsula, Burgee and a number of other areas of the fisheries here and they are going to take us to the cleaners.

Absolutely take us to the cleanersJ Keep the fish prdces suppressed, keep the pr~fits at the plant level suppressed,always squeal that they are losing money or coming close to losing money or just breaking even~ or maybejust as they do in a good year break even enough to pay them their $75,000,and no profits,nothing else left over for it, pick up all the profits at the end and continually run back to the province and ask the province to bail them out and threaten the province to build them three or four more draggers.

Absolutely disp,raceful, it is absolutely disgraceful that we can take our resource, our fisheries,the future of this province, the future of this province,and give it away so willinely to ~reedy, 4344

Ap.ril 4, 1977 Tape 1555 LB-2. 1-'R.S'!'P.ACilA..~: greedy multi-national corporations. lve could be processing that fish ourselves. We could be handling it on the market place t~1rough a fresh fish marketing organization ., and Which ~ve are marketing and looking for the highest prices and of the guarantee that as the 200 mile limit effect comes into play that two or three or four years ti~e down the road the ~arketplace will be looking fo~ Burgee fish. It will be demanding Burgee fish. Westons know that.

Otherwise Westons ~·;ould not get involved in a deal lil':e this. w,.~t:ons are not interested in the Burgee fish plant. They are interested in the fish coming out of it anr1 they ,.,ant control of it. This Bill has given in effect Westons total control from the fish s~·dmming in the ~~ter to the fish in the plant to the fish on the truck to the fish eventually on the marketplace when the consumer goes into the supermarket. Total and ab5olute control and the Minister of of Fisheries talks about,We are going to get back the fisheries for this province or the people of this province, Total~ -absolute nonsense!

The whole thing as I said, to me-- I get very_angry and very upset when I see this type of thin~ and that is hmv- I believe this sets AN .P:ON .¥El·~FR.: We have seen this happen before. }m_. STPACRAN: Yes, giving away'the Upper Churchill. I cannot understand ~·hy we can get into this type of thing. He ~vill vote for it, I imagine. I will vote for it hecause I certainly cannot, and nobody in his right senses can vote against the Burgeo people, or the Burgee fishery.

But had that Bill been split in two.,then I woula vote for the first part but I most ~efinitely would vote against the second part which :r,ives a sweetheart beautiful deal. They are a corpo~ation outside of this province which ~oes not give a damn, who does not care. By virtue of it, it al~cst looks as t'tlough our government does not care because it is giving a~·ray to them the resource,our finest resource,a renewable resource, Bad enough when we give away our minerals and we give a"ray our land, ~345

April 4, 1977 Tape 1555 LB-3. 52 per cent of the Island of Ne't·'fonntUand is given away, 41 per cent of Labrador :l.s F;iven a~my, totally concened a~~y to outside corporations ' almost totally outsi~e corporations. Companies 'Who can reap S4000 million from the year 1949 to 1972, and only pay this province,although they ~ook out $4000 mi~lion out of it, only pay this province· $36 million in rent, $36 million to the province and $4000 uillion, $3922 million actually, to outside corporations. Scandalous! Ue could be a have province if we handle our resources correctly, if we are ruthless, tough, fight. . D~ not l~~;~n . ~o .. their . bull~ing, .-

April 4.1977 Tape 1556 AH:-1 MR. STRACHA.'l: get out of the pockets, get out of the vested interests, stop selling our resources down.the drain for a few sheckles election time~and start viciously fighting to maintain the resources of this Province within this Province for the benefit of the people of this Province. And this bill to me is another example, it is another example,and worse eyen because it is dealing with the fisheries, the whole life blood of the Province, the whole heritage of the Province is in the fisheries.

It is bad enough when we give away minerals , we can understand that we neve~ had th~ expertise - well we can half excuse it~that we never had the expertise to handle the slick companies, these iron ore and power corporations and minerals. But to give the fisheries,~-lhich is ours, which is the peoples here, in which they have had that much experience, that we cannot hold our heads up,that we cannot toughen our attitude, that we cannot say it is ours and we are going to run it and we are going to own it and if you want it you come apd see us.

If .you want our produce you come and see us and we will sell it to you. But t-le will operate it for the benefit of us here. I do not see in the bill,apart from the jobs which are created in Burgee, which is t-londerful, apart from the j cbs on the boats, we are still virtually ta~~ng the money of the people of this Province to finance almost totally,finance an outside corporation to control our fishery.

As I said,it almost in some ways breaks your heart because you are torn between two things, of voting against it on the principle of it - the principle and management contract-and yet being forced because of the people of this Province,and because the benefit in jobs to the people of this Province, that you got to vote for it. But I think the day must be over when all we are looking for out of a business is the jobs. !hat is short-term development

.. ··.! April .4 ,1~77 Tape 1556 AH-2 MR. STRACHAN : in the narrowest sense. We must look for most definitely long term development for the benefit of the people, increase their pride, increase their courage, increase their initiative, increase their enterprise and get people of this Province running the· Burgee fish plant ~ Not getting the Weston's organization, call in a supermarket chain to come in and get its produce here and rape,virtually rape the fisheries of this Province, and that is exactly what this bill does. AN HON. ~ffiMBER: Do you ~ant to speak John? 1-IR. NOLAN: Mr.

Speaker, I would merely like to comment, and not to interrup the han. minister at all and I will not delay him very,very long believe me. My bon. friend from Eagle River has certainly summed up some of the maier ~oncerns that you would have to encounter when looking at this bill. Because the time is long gone when we can merely be the hand­ basket here in this Province to make ~hose - there are people in this world who are out to make a profit, This _ in itself is not sinful • l~at is sinful is that we have to examine how much is enough.

Is it enough,for example, to put a million dollars into any kind of a project,public money, where we in this Province,Rnd God knows we need every cent that we can get, where ,.,e take all the risk, where we finance them and where they have a contractual arrangement whereby the profit situation, such as my han. friend referred to, can be controlled by dickering with the books, by fixing the books, by ha~ng inter-relationships with other companies .,and how it is virtually impossible for us to examine exactly what is happening.

If a company is not making a profit, are we willing - and this has been in many ways our history-to take the word or the information that is available in book form that is in this ?rovince? But we have got to look closer than that. How often have many of us here talked privately and sometimes publically about certain 4348

April 4.1977 Tape 1556 AH-3 ~m. NOLAN: areas where we have put substantial amounts of public money into one enterprise or another. What we have done is this,in some instances; we have taken perhaps a prominent civil servant and put him on the board of directors, so-called. But what has happened, Mr. Speaker, is this, unfortunately many of. the people we have put on the board of directors in the past have been very busy men and women, very busy,and often times the only time they get to the directorship meetings is perhaps once a year.

They really are not in touch with the totality of the situation that exists~and then at the end of the year when you get the audited statement, audited by a pro~er chartered accounting firm, you have to accept it of course. But the fact is too often we have left ourselves in a position l~here we have

April 4, 1977. Tape 1557 RH - 1 MR. NOLAN: • huge amounts of public money invested. We have people who are coming to this Province for one reason and one reason only and that is to make a profit. Now as I said at the beginning there is nothing wrong with that.

What is wrong is when we give them co~trol that they are not entitled to, when we are prepared to pass over - I mean why is it, why, because someone is prominent in business on the mainland that we feel they are better at managing out resources, our plants, they have to have the ownership and so on and that there . . is no one of the 600,000 souls here that can do it. I mean.what kind of a blind spot do we have? You know, it is frightening.

We have got to forget this business if he is P.C. and I am Liberal and if the P.C.s do it everyone must say, Hurrah if you are a P.C. or if a Liberal does it we all must shout Hozannas, it is great. It is not great. And you have one crowd, as he mentioned, who has taken $4,000 million out of this Province in the last few years. The return to us has been something in the ·vicinity of $36 ~nillion. Now you do not have to have a degree in economics to figure out there is something rotten in r-enmark here. Oh God, I know what some of the ministers go through. Believe me I know.

This is not a Province where people flock to with investment money and so on. It is not a place, and I know how difficult it is to try -·to provide jobs. And who knows better right now than members of this House of Assembly.

I am sure the Minister of Education~who is out there now, knows as sure as I am standing here that down the road this month, next month and the month after there are young people coming out of Memorial University, they are coming out of the Trades College, they are finishing grade eleven, they are finishing secretarial courses, they are finishing as electricians and so on - what are they going to do? Now it seems to me that in this Province too often is a game of one-upmanship. That is if you are P.C., well fine. You have got

April 4, 19 77. Tape 1557 RH - 2 MR. NOLAN: a better answer than I have and anythinQ that I suggest must be examined and carefully scruntinized because you cannot trust those bloody Liberals, if that is parliamentary, Mr. Speaker, and vice versa in many instances. I could say the same of Liberals towards certain people who may because of their political philosophy look to the P.C. Party.

But I feel that if we as Newfoundlanders were to spend a little more time concentrating on the main problems that we are faced with here,rather than calling each other names I think we . . would be farther down the road in the problems that we have to face up to. My God,it is enough to break your heart!

No matter what side of the House you are on, when you have a situation as I have and as I·am sure all members in this House have, how often do I speak to mothers, for example, \'those husbands have had to go to Alberta or some other such place,and here thev are out trying to make a living, trying to get home maybe at Christmas time. How often do I have calls from mothers saying that, you know, 11 I have spent good money. We have worked hard. We have skimped.

We have gone without many necessities to put our children throuQh school only to have them go away to work, .. whether it is in Toronto, Alberta, Boston or wherever, not because they want to go. We have failed to provide the opportunity. I have never subscribed to the theory that the world owes you a living, never. But I do feel that it is our job collectively and individually to attempt to provide opportunity. Is it any wonder, is it any wonder I have heard people complain that the galleries are not crowded. The people do not come in here. The House is irrelevant and so on.

I mean, what bave we done since we opened here in January or February or whatever it was? AN HON. MEMBER: We have talked. J1R. NOLAN: Yes, we have talked. MR NEARY: A talk shop.

April 4, 1977. Tape 1557 RH - 3 • · MR ·• NOLAN: Well, it should be a talk shop. But surely it should be for the exc!lange of ideas. Surely that is the n.arne of the game., the exchange of ideas, to examine where we have been, what ·was wrong and what, if any, lessons we have learned from the past and where we a.re going to go from here. I mean,what have we done fn this current session of the House. of Assembly where the people who are listening on radio or reading about it in the press can say, 11 Here is something that the hon. members have done

April 4, 1977, Tape 1558, Page 1 -- apb MR. NOLAN: that is going to be beneficial to me, my family this year and on into the future'~ I mean, is there anyone in this House, no matter what side he is on, who is not disturbed at all by the fact that $4,000 million-have gone out of this Province for a return of about $36 million in the Yast few years? Is there anyone? Newfoundland and Labrador Corporation, how much money - perhaps the Hinis 't ·e-r of Justice could inform me - how much have they taken out of here in the last few years? And ,.,hat have they done for it?

Wnat service have they provided to the constituents in my hon. friend's district? What have they done? I believe in paying for service rendered, but how much is enough?

As long as we continue to remain silent and are willing to merely nod our heads and shrug our shoulders and so on on these -things, there is no '.vay in God 1 s world that the people of this Province can look to us with any respect as those who are interested in their future, that we represent as we are supposed to do, by the way, beyond the shade.,., of a doubt, we are only here for one reason, we were elected by the people for a certain period and we are here to try to protect their best interests, to change what laws and acts are bad and are working against them.

We are here to see to it in conjunction with the consultation, obviously, fr~m people not only in your own district, but throughout the Province. When a member is elected here, while he is, ~rr. Speaker, responsible to his own district, the fact is he represents all the people in this Province. Now I have a little chiding remark or two to mention about my hon. friend opposite, the Minister of Rural Development. The Minister of . 43ij3

April 4, 1977, Tape 1558, Page 2 -- apb MR. NOLAN:· Rural Development - no, I am not going to be very hard on him - the Minister of Rural Development needs an information officer. He needs something because I knm-1 of instances where he has done good work but it has not seen the light of day in terms of public recognition. MR. LUNDRIGAN: A very poor politician. MR. NOLAN: I am sorry to say that,but I think perhaps the hon. member might concede that I have a point. 1.ffi • NEARY : opposition. HR.

LUNDRIGA!l: He still thinks he is in I am one of the quiet .. politicians in the Province as far as flexing my political muscles and bragging about what I am doing. That is what the member is saying. MR. NOLAN: No, not exactly. No ,that is not exactly what the member·is saying. vlliat I am saying is that the minister perhaps all too frequently is keeping his good \olOrks well hidden. And as long as he continues to keep them well hidden there are those who will not merely accept facts that we have created 1,000 jobs this year or 500 jobs that year. They want to know where, how and why.

The minister,! know from personal experience,where he has - and it has never appeared in the press and it is not _going to, not from me and I suspect not from the hon. minister - But there are times perhaps wher. I know - no perhaps about it, I do know - when he has gone beyond his normal ministerial jurisdiction - what I am saying is no direct responsibility, on his mv.n, on a request from me for one that I know of - and he has gone and helped the poor soul. Now I think the minister has 43;)4

Arpil 4, 1977, Tape 1558, Page 3 -- apb MR. NOLAN: to learn now that there are things being done in his department that he has to start speaking out about. I believe he has to . do it better than he has in the past, and I offer this in the best, believe me, with the best of intentions. Because I think, · for example, on Rural Development grants and so on, I know of good things that have been done within my own area. What t am saying is I believe the minister has to lay it on the line. All I say to the Minister, with respect, Mr • . Speaker, is Coca Cola does not run one commercial a day.

You have to tell the story of hm-1 it is done and where ' it is done and why and the follow-up and so on. So I hope he will consider that. Nm-1 I do not know if my hon. friend was referring - was it NALCO you referring to on the $4,000 million? MR. STRACHAN: All the mineral companies. MR. NOLAN: Oh, the mineral companies. ?-1R. STRACHAN: I.o.c.c. :f.1R. NOLAN: Yes, but I think in a recent T.V. broadcast you mentioned something in reference to NALCO was it? Labrador r.tining,or what was it? MR. STRACr~N: Labrador Mining. MR. NOLAN: Yes. MR. STRACHAN: Exploration. $35 million. MR.

NOLlu~: How much have they taken out? MR. STRACHAN : $36 million a year. MR. NOLAN: They .have taken $30 million in what period? HR.. STRACP..AN : Oh, just one year, last year. MR. NOLAN: Okay, so Labrador mining took $30 million - MR. STRACHAN: Last year for shuffling paper. MR. NOLAN: - last year for shuffling paper.

April 4, 1977. Tape 1559 RH - 1 MR. NOLAN: How much do we get back in return? --·--;-· MR. LUNDRIGAN: $5 million. MR. NOLAN: $5 million. Now I am asking the han. Minister of Justice, the Minister of Rural Developme~t,if they took $30 million out does the minister feel that the service they provided to the people of this Province was worth $30 million? To feel that our return of $5 million - I mean is this the way we are going to develop this Province? Is this the way? There has got to be a better system that we are into. MR. STRACHAN: Davis Sea Oil. MR. NOLAN: Are my figures wrong,incidentally? MR. LUNDRIGAN: (First

part inaudible) --Burgee. -· .. - ._,. can I? If I cannot - MR. NOLAN: Oh, of course. MR. LUNDRIGAN: I cannot. MR. NOLAN: Sure you can. You can make reference t~ over~ll development~! would think. Sure. Anyway, Mr. Speaker, I know the minister wants to speak and I do not want to delay him unduely. All I am saying is that in the fisheries or in anything else 'lie have got - Are we admitting by the actions that we are taking that there is no one in this Province who is capable of taking a $12 million deal on a fish plant and providing the same type of service as anyone?

I mean,do you have to be from Ontario or somewhere else outside of this Province? My God,there are Newfoundlanders who have done phenomenally good jobs here at home. They have done it abroad as well. When we /Jaye situations where all the risk is ours, in this case say $12 million plus the profits they are going to take out and so on and so on,olus their relationships with marketing, and I submit to the minister that by golly when you get books of another company being done on the mainland

April 4, 1977. Tape 1559 RH - 2 MR. NOLAN: and so on you have a tough time attempting to establish what the true profit picture is. It is virtually impossible to do so. It is not the only company that would have done that. There are lots of others as well. It has been done over the years. So I am hoping that when the minister stands on this particular matter that he will address himself to these points and let us see if we cannot start anew and take a look at what we have done and where we are going.

I would say something else to the mini-ster too; that in the time within his own administration, that there are deals that have been consumated th~t on second reflection - they may not admit it here in the House~but I know they would not be done again. Ministers have been wrong in the past,on all sides, l might add. But there are situations where in certain cases already,privately - I am not saying the minister told me- but there are those who will tell you quite frankly_ that if they tad a second look it would not be-as it is'. Well all right then. Where are we going to go from here?

I mean, is this the kind of development we must nourish, continue to nourish? I I mean are we going to continue down this path forever. Because if so there is no future in this Province, no future at all. So I am hoping we will learn from the mistakes of the past, whith we have all made,and take a good ~ard look at the situation, because it is all ·right to get up and make grand speeches about the future of the fishery and the 200 mile limit,and we are going to build trawlers, we are going to build this, that and the other thing.

But I say it is time for the real money from the fisheries and so on to go into the pockets of the people to whom it belongs and that is right here in this Province. And as long as we continue to adopt an attitude that as long as you are some big wheeler-dealer from Toronto or somewhere else that you can do a better job, that you have the best •

April 4, 1977. Tape 1559 RH - 3 MR.NOLAN: interests of this Province at heart, that . they are the o~ly ones who are going to come in here and take these risks, I think we. are not looking hard enough.

But I mean that collectively; all of us together have got to think about these things and speak out about them because on the face of it - for example, some of the figures that my friend referred to, if you were to look at the bare., b~ld facts as he related them-and the minister may very well object to -some·of the things he said and correct them,perhaps-· but on the bare, . - . -· bald facts as he outlines them you would have to ask yoursel~ What are we doing, what is the future?

And in fact, if what he says is true, can there ever be any future at all other than merely the lowest type jobs where you have a crowd, you are in their hands completely and they can walk away from it anytime that they want to. So I am not going to delay the minister beyond this point, Mr. Speaker.

But it is a matter that questions are being asked by people in all walks of life in this Province~ and they are wondering really to what extent have we in this House individually or collectively, honoured the commitments that we have made to represent their best interests when they hear remarks _such ___ ~.~:_!bose_L_ .for example, as phrased by my hon. friend from Eagle River(Mr. Strachan). So, Mr. Speaker, I will certainly give way to the han. minister. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear,• hear! 11!h._SPEAKER: · If-. the minister speaks nQol,he closes the debate. · The hon. minister. MR. LUNDRIGAN: Mr.

Speaker, first of all, 1 warit to thank hon. members for the remarks they have made, the member for Burgeo(Mr. Simmons} the ment>er for LaPoile(Nr. Neary), the member for Eagle River(Mr. Strachan), and the member for l

April 4, 1977 Tape 1560 PK - 1 Mr. Lundrigan: Conception Bay South (~rr. Nolan). All have had good,constructive, solid,cotmnent~ and they have made some points that certai~_ly were inspirational. The member from Eagle River (Mr. Strachan) was particularly inspirational because he certainly - I am sure the member from Conception Bay South really got to his feet on th.e inspiration of the member from Eagle River. And I want to sort of compliment him for such a moving speech.

I sometimes wonder lis.tening to members ~ross the way :_~ whether we are'living here in the Rouse of Assembly in the real world, because some of the remarks made by bon. gentlemen were made in economic isolation of the realities of the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador that we are living in today. They are sort of theoretical, they are almost like somebody who found their way into a library of a university after being on a ~raduate p~ogramrne for half a dozen ·years and decided to pick up a pen and write a book having read some of the great ·works of some of the great socialist leaders.

And . that is the kind of thing which I sort of enjoy, I really enjoyed the member from Eag~e River (Mr. Strachan) - MR. STRACHAN: I enjoy you too. MR. LUNDRIGAN: - because he is philosophically and down deep inside he says what has to be said on a continuous basis in this Province, and he said it, I hope sort of -he said it for his party. Now I will get on to that in a few moments.

But let me before saying anytping in the sense of rebutting his general remarks I want to just tell him again,or repeat ~or him what is contained in the bill, and which I did not expect him to pick up and read in great detail and digest and regurgitate -because ' this basically is a fait accompli already. It is a bill that really is brought here to give the.members of the Legislature an opportunity to debate what is in essence an existing agreement.

So on that basis it is on!y worth-while for the member to use the bill as a means of philosophically debating the principle that is involved, and that is in fact what the second reading is anyway

April 4, 1977 Tape 1560 PK - 2 M!'• Lundrigan: But there are a couple of points that I would like to mention. Number one, National Sea according to the existing premises that are presently in Burgee, and the member if he has not ··visited Burgee I am sure he will use the opportunity to travel with his colleague to visit and see that there is an existing plant, a herring plant that is valued at $3.2 million, and that herring plant ~~s depreciated now to be of a value of $2.4 million which they have put into Burgeo Leasing Limited. MR. NEARY: It was closed when the government brought out Spencer Take. MR.

LUNDRIGAJ.'l: They also put - yes, Hr. Speaker, it was closed, it is quite possible tomorrow morning to close the plant across the way, - MR. NEARY: They took all the herring - HR. LUNDRIGAN: -St. John's Harbour, the one across the St ~ John's Harbour and close it down,. I~ does not mean that the value does not exist. Youcan close Confederation Building next week and move into a new building it does not mean that the value of Confederation Building has gone down to zero. MR. NEARY: It breaks every herring - MR.

LUNDRIGAN: In rebuilding our new plant in Burgee it was essential, number one, that we have the premises which belong to National Sea; number two, we are building a plant around the existing plant, If we did not have the new herring plant, it is only three years old, if we did not have the new herring plant there the plant would cost us several millions of dollars more than it will cost us today; Consequently they have made directly a contribution of $2.4 million, As a matter of fact,there is an outstanding debt incurred by Burgee Leasing of half a million dollars that was loaned Burgee Leasing in . ·:~ order to pay off the building, . the new herring plant.,so that the Burgeo Leasing in fact owned it outright, Thatis the only basis on which the government would get involved in a fifty-fifty ownership position of Burgee Leasing Limited.

... April 4, 1977 Tape 1560 PK- 3 Mr. Lundrigan: Now, Mr. Speaker, number two - I am really in essence saying that the company have contributed through ' their plant and another loan of $400,000, almost $3 .millions to Burgeo Leasing - Number two, the government purchased 50 per cent ownership in Burgeo Leasing, two forms of preference shares and . common shares which go in the form of working capital to operate that particular company. This is outlined in the bill.

Number three, the qovernment of Newfoundland and Labrador are lending Burg eo Leasing $3.5 millions for ~vhich they will receive a first mortgage on the premises and a flo.at;i.ng charge on all of the assets of Burgeo Leasing. That particular $3.5 million is to be paid off with the normal interest rate charged by government for a period of eighteen years. If in the event that that $3.5 million,the regular payments are not met,the particular company Burgeo Leasing is in default which means that the agreement,technically I suppose,could be in default as well.

Consequently there is an eighteen year first mortgage position held by the government. 43~1

April 4~ 1977 Tape 1561 MR. LUNDRIGAN: Even in the number eighth_ year, when National Sea will get the option to purchase,they still will be responsible for ten more years of repayment of the first mortgage on that particular property of $3.5 millions.

Number two,they will be responsible for picking up and liquidating the preference shares which the government have involved~and number three, outlined in the back-and I am no expert coming from Island Cove myself on these matters~but I have a fair understanding of the common sense involved in it - there is an indication of the basis on which Burgeo Leasing can be purchased by National, the net book value as determined by the profitability of the company at the end of eight years.

If the company is not profitable, if it continues to lose money, if it cannot make an operating profit,obviously the Burgeo Leasing Limited will not be purchased by National. The next year the government have the option to purchase the premises. Again the government will not be eager.to purchase it in the event that the company is not profitable. And to date.

I might indicate for bon. members who must have forgotten~that since 1972 that we took over Burgeo Fisij except for one year there has been a loss,forgetting any amortization of the original purchase price,there has been an operating loss in the particular fish plant. In 1975, Mr. Speaker, there was a $1 million-plus loss in that particular plant. There has been an accrued,capitalized over the four year period,of $1.5 million loss during these number of years that the government have been responsible for Burgeo Fish. Then a member asks - MR. NEARY: l~ould the minister permit a question?

Could the minister tell the House how much National Sea has contributed JM- 1 toward the losses? They took their profits,but did they contribute anything towards the losses? MR. L'IDIDRIGA.J.'l': ~I. Speaker, the member obviously is not familiar

...... . .... . ....... . ' . . .. April 4, 1977 Tape 1561 JM- 2 MR. LUNDRIGAN: with the setup in Burgeo. MR. NEARY: I am. MR. LIDIDRIGAN: Burgeo Fish Industries are owned by the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador outright,and really what happened since 1972 is National Sea have been the managers and the salesmen for the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador. MR. NEARY: They take profits. Do they contribute anything towards losses? . MR. LUNDRIGAN: Mr. Speaker, _they did · not take any profits. MR. NEARY: They did. MR. LUNDRIGAN: There were none except in one year. MR. NEARY: They took five percent. ~m.

LUNDRIGMl: They had a five percent return on the gross sales as a result of a management agreement that we had with the company based on the blue sheets in Boston and that ~s the normal cost that would have been incurred by the government,the member will agree,had ~ve had that _kind of responsibility to sell the fish through a government controlled corporation,had we had the determination to start su.ch a corporation .And they received $75,000 management fee and the management fee only in one year excelled $75,000,which was the minimum fee agreed because the only way they could get more of a management fee if the company were profitable.

I have indicated to the House, I have put on paper that only one year - ~. NEARY: Two years, tw<;>. MR. Lt~DRIGk~: One year, Mr. Speaker, 1974 did they make more than the $75,000 minimum and in that year they made $99,000 as the management fee • . ··· ~ ?-IR. NEARY: They made- ·$·1, million in one year profit. MR. LIDIDRIGAN: Mr. Speaker, the profit that the member for LaPoile is referring to could not exist and cannot exist until 43.83

April 4, 1977 Tape 1561 JM- 3 ~. Lt~DRIG~~: we get the plant completed and we have joint ownership of Burgeo Leasing, fifty per cent by the govern~ent and fifty per cent by National Sea. Up to this moment the facilities are