Manitoba Hansard — 10 December 1990 (Sitting 42B, 35th Legislature, 1st Session)

35-1-42b

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

MG-8048 First Session • Thirty-Fifth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS (HANSARD) 39 Elizabeth 11 Published under the authority of The Honourable Denls C. Rocan Speaker VOL. XXXIX No. 428 • 8 p.m., MONDAY, DECEMBER 10, 1990 Printed by the Office of the Qu.ns Printer, Province of Manitoba ISSN 0542-5492

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Fifth Legislature Members, Constituencies and Political Affiliation NAME ALCOCK, Reg ASHTON, Steve BARRETT, Becky CARR, James CARSTAIRS, Sharon CERILLI, Marianne CH EEMA, Gulzar CHOM IAK, Dave CONNERY, Edward, Hon. CUMM INGS, Glen, Hon. DACQUAY, Louise DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary DOWNEY, Jam es, Hon. DRIEDGER, Albert, Hon. DUCHARM E, Ge rry, Hon. EDWARDS, Paul ENNS, Harry, Hon. ERNST, Jim , Hon. EVANS, Ciif EVANS, Leonard S. FILMON , Gary, Hon. FINDLAY, Glen, Hon. FRIESEN, Jean GAUDRY, Ne il GILLESHAMMER, Harold, Hon. HARPER, Eli jah HELWER, Edward R.

HICKES, George LAMOUREUX, Kevin LATHLIN, Oscar LAURENDEAU, Marcel MALOWAY, Jim MANNESS, Clayton, Hon. MARTINDALE, Doug McALPINE, Gerr y McCRAE, James, Hon. MciNTOSH , Linda MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. NEUFELD, Harol d, Hon. ORCH ARD, Donald , Hon. PENNER, Jack, Hon. PLOHMAN , John PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack RENDER, Shirley ROCAN, Denis, Hon. ROSE, Bob SANTOS, Conrad STEFANSON, Eric STORIE, Jerry SVEINSON, Ben VODREY, Rosema ry WASYL YCIA-LEIS, Judy WOWCHUK, Rosann CONSTITUENCY Os borne Thompson We llin gton Crescentwood Rive r Heigh ts Radisson The Maples Kildo nan Portage la Prairie Ste.

Rose Seine River Roblin- Russe ll Selkirk Concordia Arthur-Vir den Steinbach Riel St. Jam es Lake side Charl eswood lnterlake Brandon East Tuxedo Springfield Wolseley St. Boniface Minnedosa Rupert sland Gimli Point Douglas lnkster The Pas St. Norbert Elm wood Morris Burrows Sturgeon Creek Brandon West Assiniboia Rive r East Rossmer e Pembina Emer son Dauphin Lac du Bonnet Transcona Niakwa St. Vital Gladstone Turtle Mountain Broadway Kirkfield Park Fl in Flon La Verendrye Fort Garry St.

Johns Swan River PARTY Liber al NDP NDP Liber al Liber al NDP Liber al NDP PC PC PC PC NDP NDP PC PC PC Liber al PC PC NDP NDP PC PC NDP Liberal PC NDP PC NDP Liber al NDP PC NDP PC NDP PC PC PC PC PC PC PC NDP PC NDP PC PC PC PC NDP PC NDP PC PC NDP NDP

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Monday, December 10, 1990 The House met at 8 p.m. Hon. Cla yton Manne ss (Govern ment House Leader): Mr. Speaker, before we resu me the review of Estimates, I would ask that you petition the House to determ ine wheth er there is a will to sit beyond ten o'clock. it is not the Governmen t's intention in any way to push a long sitting of tonight.

Neve rtheless, I will leave it up to the underst anding of the Opposition that there may be good reason to go beyond te n o'clock, and that the Department of Family Serv ices, the consideration of the ir Estimates, will continue in the Committee Room. Within the Chamber, Environmen t, and should Environmen t be completed before 9:30 or ten o'clock, we will , as the Gove rnmen t, be holding the De partmen t of Jus tice in the wings, and the ir Estimates might continue. Again, I am not putting a parameter around the closing tonight, but there is my understanding that common se nse will prevai l.

Ce rtainly, the Gov ernment has no in tention to push the consideration beyond the late hour of midnight. Mr. Speaker: Is there unanimous consent to sit beyond te n o'clock? Is it agreed ? Mr. Kevln Lamou reux (Seco nd Opposition House Leader): Mr. Speak er, the Governmen t House Leader (Mr. Manne ss) has quite el oquen tly put that he is see king some type of co-operation to allo w us to sit past ten o'clock. He does not need the Opposition's perm ission to sit past ten o'clock, even though it would be nice.

In our previous discussion, I had suggested to him that if in fact there is a possibil ity of an agree ment, then we would be rece ptive to sitting until 12 , midnight. Otherwise we in the Liberal Party woul d lik e to adjourn at ten o'clock failing any type of agree men t. Mr. Speaker: Is there unanimous consent to sit beyond ten o'clock? Agreed? No? *

(2005) Mr. Steve Ashton (Oppositi on House Leader): lt is not a matter of House Business. I think the Gover nmen t House Leader was essenti ally making an announcem en t. We have procedures that deal within our rules in terms of sitting past ten o'clock. We certainly do not have any grea t difficulty sitting an additional period of time tonight, as we often do on a Monday night. The Liberals have their way of deal ing with that. There are procedures, but our rules essenti ally allo w for that. I would suggest we treat the announcement as an announcemen t, rather than anything re quiring leave from the House. Mr.

Speaker: We are going to do Family Services in Room 255 ; the Department of Environmen t, should it comple te its Estimates between the hours of 9: 30 and 10 , therefore, we require leave to do the Departmen t of Justice . Is there leave for that? Some Honourable Members: Leave. Mr. Speaker: Yes, there is leave. That is agreed upon. The Honourable Governm ent House Lea der? Mr. Manness: No, that is fine, Mr. Speaker. We are ready to go into Supply. Mr. Speaker: lt is agreed. CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY-FAMILY SERVICES Mr. Deputy Chai rman {Marcel Laurendeau): Order, please .

Will the Committee of Supply please come to orde r. This ev ening this

section of the Committee of Supply me eti ng in Room 255 will re sume consideration of the Estimates of the De partm en t of Fam ily Se rvices. When the committee last sat, it had been conside ring item 6.(

d) Special Programs and Immigrant Services : (1 ) Branch Operations $145,700, on page 65. Shall the ite m pass? Ms. Becky Barrett (Welli ngton) : Mr . Dep uty Chairman, I have just a couple more questions here , I think. On the Estimates expenditures on page 107 of the detailed Estimates , I am wondering if the Min iste r can explain , under the Employabi lity Enhancemen t Programs, the reason for the actual expenditur es being $3,900,000 as opposed to the Adjusted Vote appeari ng a milli on dollar s more, $4,900 .000.00 ? Hon. Harold Gll leshamm er (Minister of Family

2749 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA December 10 , 19 90 Services): Yes, it refers to the Gateway Program. There is a change in accounting practices from re porting it on a cyclical basis to an annual basis. There is a difference in the funding because of that. Ms. Barrett: On the Immigration and Sett lemen t Services are a there is the new initiative titled Bridging Cultures Program. I am wonde ring if the Minister can explain that area which would appear to me to be the major differe nce between the expend itures of '89-90 and this year? Mr.

Gl ll eshammer: Yes, this is a new program that was announced during August and Sept emb er. The det ails are just being final ized at this time. * (201 0) Ms. Barrett: I assume that some of those details are details as to how community-based activities could access the funding for the Bridging Cul tures Program and what the parameters of that would be? Mr. Gllles hammer: Yes, the guideli nes as to the manner in which funds are accessed to the Bridging Cultur es Program are being developed at this time. Ms. Barrett: Do you have an esti mated time of arrival for those guidelines? Mr.

Gll lesham mer: We are hoping that we can put the program into pla ce for the last quarter of this fiscal year. Ms. Barrett: Then in the Grants list it has $45,000 for this year. Would that be one qu arte r's expendi tures, or is that what would be considered to be a full year's expe nditures of grants? Mr. Gll lesham mer: The full ye ar is $65, 000.00. Ms. Barrett: For 1 990-$65 ,000 will be available for community groups in January? Mr. Gll leshamm er: No, I indicated the full year woul d be $65,000 , so it will be pro-rated for the last quarter. Ms. Barrett: So the $45,000 figur e here is inaccurate?

In the Gr ants lis t, it says Bridging Cul tures Program, $45,000 .00. Mr. Gll le shammer: Yes, the $45 ,000 will be available for the start- up of this program for the last quarter of this ye ar. Ms. Barrett: Then beginning the next fiscal year of April 1, there would be $65,000 available for the full fiscal year? Mr. Gl lle shammer: We are not sure what the next budget is going to contain at this time, but we anticipate that this program woul d be an ongoing one. Ms.

Barrett: Am I to assume that the $65,000 figure that the Minister discussed ear lier was the amount of money that was in the release when it was put forward in August or Septe mber? Mr. Gll lesham mer: I do not recal l there being a figure announced at that time. Ms. Barrett: I do not mean to belabo ur the point, but the Ministe r did refer to $65,000, and I am having trouble putting that in context. Mr.

GII Ieshammer: We would anticipate that the full year costs would be in the neighb ourhood of $65,000 and that may be an accurate figure for next year, but for the start-up costs and the final se gmen t of this year, we have $45,000.00. * (201 5) Ms. Barrett: I am wondering if the Minister does have any more specifics about what these at-risk immigrant families might look lik e, what kinds of ge neral programs were announced in August or Sept emb er?

I think the Minister was probably busy doing the same kinds of activities that I was during that time period, and I do not recall the details of that announceme nt, or if we could have a copy of the announcemen t, perhaps would be sufficient. Mr. Gll lesham mer: I can te ll you that the program was announced during August and Sept emb er, but the final details ofthe pla n are just being puttogether at this time. As the name implies, Bridging Cultures is an atte mpt to facilitate the adapta tion of ethnocultural groups into the work force her e in our province. Ms.

Barrett : So it deals with em ployme nt prepa ration . That is not stated in the detai led Estim ate s pro cess, it sa ys, supp orts at-risk immigrant famil ies. So it was not clear to me that was em ploymen t preparati on. Mr. Gll leshammer: lt will probably have a broader interpr etation than that, but it is an attempt to facilitate immigrant families resettle in this province. Ms. Barrett : Will the complete $45 ,000 be distributed to groups?

The reason I am asking is that it is a fairly short time period to have groups notified of the grants availabil ity, having them present briefs for money, requests for some of this grant money and then turning around and getting the money out befor e March 31 . Is it plann ed to have the

December 10 , 19 90 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA 2750 department spend all of that money before March 31? Mr. Gll lesham mer: Yes, we have staff who have been working with these groups and we do not anticipate that there is going to be any problem. lt is not a large amount of money to be spending. Ms. Barrett: I will agree with the Minister on that. Just another couple of questions. In the draft annual report, it states that some statistics, or some percentages of immigrants coming into Manitoba-! was struck by the small but definite increase in labour market criteria.

In '89, 62.3 percent were selected for socially humanitarian, and 65.4 percent in '88, so there was a decline of over 2 percent in that category and, at the same time there was a 4 percent increase between '88 and '89 for labour market criteria immigration. The reason I was struck with this is that it appears to relate to what the federal Government guidelines in programs on immigration are aiming for, which is asking for a higher reliance on labour market criteria than has been the case in the past.

I am wondering if the department thinks that the federal immigration guidelines will have an impact on this small but definite trend in the Manitoba immigration figures? *

(2020) Mr. Gll leshammer : You are asking me to speculate on what is going to happen in the future. Hopefully, we are going to still be concerned with uniting families, but also I expect that we are going to try and attract skilled workers to fill certain positions which are available in the province and have them come in as contributing members of society. Ms. Barrett: I did not want to ask the Minister to speculate, just to share with us his plans.

Finally, in the Grant sections, there are two major areas of Grants in Immigration and Settlement: one to private-sector , registered business, and the other to non-profit, non-governmental organizations registered in Manitoba. There is a significantly higher amoun t of money going to private-sector, registered business than there is to the non-profit, non-governmental organizations; and secondly, there is no change in any of the grants for '90-91 oyer '89-90.

I am wondering if the Minister can give me an example of what some of those registered business are, and what kinds of provisions they make, how do they access this money, as well as some of the non-profit, non- governmental organizations? Mr. Gll leshammer: In the pr ivate sector we subsidize employers who hire immigrants who are attempting to get their certification recognized in the province, and may be in the process of having their credentials recognized. We subsidize the employer and the wage that they are paid.

To give you some examples here, we have lists of employe rs-and that is perhaps not of interest to you, but the position may be. There are assistant accountants, technical assistants, dental technicians, lab assistants, lab scientists, junior accountant, industrial mechanic, aircraft mechanic, legal assistant, accountant trainee technicians, senior accountant. The firms are indicated here as well. While this training process is going on and the credentials are being upgraded and recognized, we subsidize the wage. Ms. Barrett: I appreciate that information.

Could the Minister tell me what the rate of subsidization is? Mr. Gllle shammer: Yes, I can. The provincial contribution offered to private-sector businesses is based on a percentage of the gross wages paid to an employee over a 52-week period. Employers are eligible for wage subsidies of 70 percent of the gross weekly salary to a maximum of $280 for the first four weeks; 50 percent of the gross weekly salary, maximum $200, for the following 22 weeks; and 30 percent of the gross weekly salary to a maximum of $120 for the final 26-week period.

The maximum subsidy for the 52 weeks of employment will not exceed $8,640.00. Ms. Barrett : Are there any regulations or guarantees or requirements that these businesses must agree to that they will pay the going wage, or can they pay the minimum wage for these people, or are they required to pay what a dental technician would be paid normally? *

(2025) Mr. Gll leshamm er: lt is the intent and the hope that they pay the employee at the going rate for that position, and also that they keep the employee on after the training period has been completed. Ms. Barrett: The intent and the hope, but there is no requirement, is that what is being stated? Mr. Gllle shammer: Yes, on the far right-hand side of that list that I was reading before, it indicates those who have completed the training, those who have quit, and those who are continuing in it. They do not sign any long-term service contract, but the hope is

2751 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 1 0, 19 90 that their intentions are honourable and that they would not only pay the going rate, but also consider that the employee become a full-time employee and continue. Ms. Barrett: Are there records kept of what the individuals who are being subsidized are actually being paid? Mr. Gll leshamm er: Yes, we have that information. Ms. Barrett: Do employers pay the going rate, or below the going rate, or the minimum wage? Mr. Gll leshammer: Generally, they do. Ms.

Barrett: Can the Minister tell me how many of these individuals stay with the same business after their, I assume, 52 weeks of subsidization is completed? Mr. Gll leshammer: I am told about 60 percent of the employees remain with that company and would point out that the employer takes part of the ownership for the program and the training and the funding of that. As I indicated, about 60 percent stay with that firm. ..

(2030) Ms. Barrett: I would be interested in seeing what the percentage of employers, No. 1 , who pay the average going rate for these various occupations; and, No. 2, for those who do not, what the amount less than the average going rate is?

I am sure the Minister is understanding what my problem here is, is that without a regulation, or something more intense than an intent and a hope that they will pay, there is the possibility for employers seeing this as a way of getting help and assistance at less than what they would be required to pay a regular employee, and they would also get subsidization at the same time. So I am pleased that there are 60 percent that stay. l would hope that it would actually be higher.

I am bit concerned, and I am not suggesting that I need any more information right now .I would just like to put on the record the concern that I have on this part of the program. Can the Minister give me some information on the non-profit NGOs that are involved in these activities that access the $50,000.00? Mr. Gll leshammer: Perhaps I could give you the 1989-90 projects that were funded.

The Afghan Association of Manitoba, and it was called the Afghan Community Development and Networking Project; the Ethiopian Community in Winnipeg, Integration and Settlem ent of Ethiopians in Winnipeg; the Winnipeg Boys and Girls Clubs, and it was called the lntergenerational Conference; the Pembina Valley Development Corporation, Kandier Educational Needs Assessment; the lnterfaith Immigration Council, Housing Research Project on Factors Affecting Landlords and lmmigrantT enants; Planned Parenthood Manitoba and others. Ms.

Barrett: These are all for special projects that deal with immigration and settlement issues. Is that accurate? Mr. Gll lesham mer: That is correct. Ms. Barrett: The list that the Minister has given me, I understand most of it. I am not quite sure I understand the rationale for the Boys and Girls Clubs, lntergenerational Conference. How that applies nor what the Planned Parenthood money would have been used for. Mr. Gll lesha mmer: The Planned Parenthood Manitoba, the project was called Health Advocates Training Program. Ms. Ba rrett: And the Boys and Girls Clubs, lntergenerational? Mr.

Gll lesham mer: These were immigrant boys and girls who were having difficulty relating to older generations of earlier immigrants to this country and it was simply called the ln tergenerational Conference. Ms. Barrett: That does clarify it. Were these the entire list or is this just a sample of the funding? Mr. Gll lesha mmer: That was a partial list. Ms. Barrett: Would it be possible to have access or get access to the full list? Mr. GIIl eshammer: lt is possible. Ms. Barrett: Seeing as how it is possible, may I request it? Mr. Gll lesham mer: You may request it. Ms.

Barrett: Will my request be looked upon favourably? Mr. Glll eshammer: Certainly. Ms. Barrett: Mr. Deputy Chair, I just wanted it put on the record that my honourable friend from Osborne was not the only one who could make these kinds of series of questions her e. I have one further question of clarification that I neglected to ask under the earlier private sector register. Is this program the item called Program Recognition that is listed in the detailed Estimates?

December 10 , 19 90 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA 2752 Support for 26 new positi ons, 29 previous placements for recent immigrants in professional and technical occupations. Mr. Gll lesham mer: Yes. Ms. Barrett: I have many more questions, but I am going to hold them un til a later date. So I have no further questions under this area. Mr. Reg Alcock (Osborne): Perhaps, Mr. Deputy Chairman, we could begin by clarifying which this area is. We are on Item 09-6D-1 Branch Operations, but the Minister has been willing to take questions in that area 09-6D-2, 6D-3 and 6D-4. Is that correct?

So we have gone basically through the remaining appropriations. The Member for Wellington (Ms. Barrett) is finished with her questioning in this division. Mr. Deputy Chairman: That is correct. Mr. Alcoc k: Good. Then let us start back at Branch Op erations. Let me just try to get a better understanding of how this organizational structure works. In this particular division, where we have day care, for some particular reason we have an administrative structure that is presumably divisional administration.

We then have an administrative structure that is youth in nature and in responsibility and a series programs, and now we have a third administrative structure. This is the branch, if I understand correctly, that is responsible for programs to immigrants, as well as special opportunit y programming for certain individuals, but not necessarily because they are immigrants. Is that a fair way of characterizing this? These next items that we have in this division, do they all report through this particular Branch Operations?

Is it the administrative head of the Human Resources Op portunity programs , the centres, the Employability Enhancement and the immigration and settlement? (Mrs. Rosemary Vodrey, Acting Chairman, in the Chair) Mr. Gll leshammer: That is correct. Mr. Alco ck: Madam Acting Chairman, perhaps then the Minister could just position these series of activities for me in terms of overall Government policy. The Human Resources Op portunity pr ograms, is it fair to characterize them as larg ely serving an Income Security clientele? Mr. Gll leshamrner: That is correct. Mr.

Alco ck: Then there are some programs for newly arrived landed immigrants and the like that have been brought together as a result of some sort of departmental reorganization? Mr. Gll lesham mer: That is correct. Mr. Alcock: Madam Acting Chairman, there were a series of services offered under the Department of Labour which were directed at immigrants. Does the Department of Labour still have responsibility in the area of immigration at all, or has that function been transferred here entirely? Mr.

Gll lesh ammer: Sometime ago they were transferred to the department of Employment Services and then in the reorganization of the departments, it has remained here. Mr. Alco ck: So then is it fair to characterize this area as being the province's centre or accountability point for services to immigrants in this province? Mr. Gll lesham mer: At the provincial level, that is correct. Mr. Alcock: When we talk about negotiations with Ot ta wa, for example, around changes to imm igration quotas and changes to their relationship with the international community, is that done through this department? Mr.

Gll les hammer: We would have some input in that area. *

(2040) Mr. Alcock : Is there a relationship between this particular branch and the overseas off ices that the province operates in the European community and in Hong Kong? Mr. Gll leshamrner: No. Mr. Alco ck: Particular to en trepren eurial immigration are there recruitment activities that are undertaken by this particular department? Mr. Gll leshammer : There are no recrui tment initiatives coming out of this department. Mr.

Alco ck: Now does the Department of Education have any responsibilities for immigrants other than the broad responsib ility it has for educatin g Man itobans and duly landed or visaed non-Canadians? Mr. GIIIeshammer: We share the responsibility with Education for the program called English as a Second Language. Mr. Alcock: Can the Minister describe the nature of that sharing and the nature of that relationship?

2753 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA December 1 0, 19 90 Mr. Gll leshammer : The delivery of English as a Second Language is done by the Department of Education. Our role is that we have a member of our department seconded to Education to assist with that program. Mr.

Alcoc k: Would it be fair to characterize that relationship that, though the Departmen t of Education is responsible for the specific task of teaching English as a Second Language, this department would have a broader responsibility in terms of reaching out to people, recruiting them for and seeing that they access those programs providing social supports to people who need them? Mr. Gll leshamm er: For the most part, that is correct. The delivery of the program is done through Education, but for the social services they may well access various branches of this department. Mr.

Alcoc k: Is that the only function the Department of Education has relative to new Canadians? Mr. Gll lesham mer: I am sorry. The only role that the Department of Education plays? Mr. Alcoc k: Madam Acting Chair, I am just going to sort out where the responsibility lies for services to new Canadians or to immigrants, other than the general educational programs, you have mentioned one special service that is targeted on immigration. I am asking, is that the only one that is run by the Department of Education? Mr. Gll lesham mer: There are a number of services that are provided by our department.

Education's role is in the language training under ESL. Mr. Alcock: Are there other departm ents of Government that have specific responsibilities for supporting new Canadians? Mr. Gll leshammer : The other department would be Culture, Heritage and Recreation, and their invol vement is in the cultural area. Another department that I would mention is Industry, Trade and Tourism, which has some responsibility for entrepreneurial initiatives for immigrants. Mr.

Alcoc k: If we can just put that aside for a second, since I want to come back to it in a moment, but I want to just focus on the employment training for a second. This department operates through this branch some employment training programs, but, as I understand it, it is not the sole home of employment training programs in this Government. The Department of Education operates some instit utionally-based training at universit ies, technical schools, colleges and the like. What is the boundary between those two programs? How have you differentiated?

When you made the decision to transfer programs over to this department from the Department of Education, what was the basis on which those transfers were made? Mr. Gll lesham mer: The Department of Education provides a much broader base of training for new Canadians, for immi grants . The bul k of the immigrants who are assisted by this department are on social assistance. That is a distinction that is made with Education. Mr. Alco ck: I want to come back to the immigration programs in a moment, and the supports to immigrants. I think that is an important point that bears following up on.

I just want, for the moment, to try to get a sense of some of the boundaries here between this department and the Department of Education relative to the broader issue of training, not just of immigrants. Why is it that, outside of the traditional programs such as colleges and technical schools-maybe I should ask the question this way-certain programs are transferred to this department from the Department of Education at some point. I am wondering why the decision was made to transfer some of those programs and not all of them. Mr. Gll lesham mer: The transfer of those programs went the other way.

Programs were transferred from Economic Security to Education. This department kept the programs for social assistance recipients. Mr. Alco ck: There was a program, I believe it was called New Careers. Does it still exist? Mr. Gll leshammer : Yes, it still exists. lt was one of the programs that was transferred from this department to Education. Mr. Alco ck: One of the target groups for that program were people who required specialty training and support. Why would a program of that sort be transferred and not some of these others? Mr.

Gll lesham mer: I am told that the New Careers is primarily for Native people, that it was not targeted for just social assistance recipients, and that it was a long-term program. The decision was made that it would be part of the package that Education would offer. Mr. Alco ck: I am just wondering why this department would deliver any training programs? Why would you not transfer them all to Education if they are educationally based?

December 10 , 19 90 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 2754 •

(2050) Mr. Gll lesh ammer: That question has been raised before. These are ones that had a specific cost sharing for our training prog rams under the Employability Enhan cement agreement, and because of that they have remained in this particular department. Mr. Alc ock : Would the department lose cost-sharing if these were delivered by the Department of Education? Mr. Gllle shammer: The common denominator across the country seems to have these programs linked with the departments that provide social assistance. Mr. Alco ck: We are following other provinces.

My question was, if a program like this was delivered by the Department of Education, would CAP not cost-share it? Is that the decision from CAP? Mr. Gll leshammer : That may or may not be the case, but the important thing is to keep some linkage between our training programs and social assistance recipients. Mr. Alcock: Does the Department of Education not respond to the training needs of social allowance recipients? Mr. Gll lesham mer: In some cases they do but for our purposes, we feel that there is some benefit of having a linkage between training programs and social assistance recipients. Mr.

Alco ck: Can the Minister help me to understand that benefit? What is the nature of that benefit? What is the tangible benefit? Mr. Gll leshammer : These are the individuals who access our department, and direct referrals can be made from Social Assistance Program to training. I think it is fair to say that we are more familiar with our clients and have a closer contact with them than Education does. Mr. Alco ck: Those same criteria exist in an awful lot of areas. The same argument can be made relative to health care.

The reality is that you deprive them of a normal educational experience when you put them into something that is not part of the mainstream. That decision was made some long time ago with children. The decision was that children would be served by the regular school system, and that this department would provide support to that and move away from that principle when it comes to adults. Mr.

Gllleshammer : I am not sure where we are going with this, but I guess if you are wanting me to say that the Department of Education could absolutely provide all of the education and training programs that exist, no doubt they would, they could. There are a number of individuals who access the training programs through the social assistance contact they have with workers in district offices. There seems to be some importance in this linkage between our social assistance recipients and training. Mr. Alco ck: We have too much to go through to belabour this point for very long, so I shall move on.

I would leave it with the comment that one of the things that the program seemed to be directed at is to try to return people to the mainstream, if you like, to divert them from income security programs. Yet rather than taking them back into the mainstream, we seem to prefer to stream them off into programs that are still run by this Department. lt is just an interesting policy that we had moved away from in other areas. lt is kind of a throwback, in a way. Unless the Minister would like to respond, I can move on. Mr. Gll le shammer: I can respond, but I guess I would prefer to move on. Mr.

Alcock: I am just looking at the Speech from the Throne. Under the heading Knowledge Skills and People, there are a number of initiatives that were spoken about in the speech relative to skills, training, opportunities, incentives and those sorts of things. I am wondering if responsibility for delivering on any of these promises made in this speech rests with this Department? Or are these all the responsibility of other departments? Mr.

GII Ieshammer: I do not have the speech in front of me, but certainly we are as concerned as anybody with the success of training programs and having people move into the mainstream, not be on social assistance and become productive citizens. Mr. Alcock: I will come back as we get into the program area and ask specifically about some of the ones that are referenced. I can come back to that in a minute. The Premier (Mr. Filmon) during the campaign made a number of comments about enhancing immigration in this province.

There was discussion at one time both of possibly establishing a separate immig ration process such as the Province of Quebec has and other talk about increasing

2755 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA December 10 , 19 90 immigration quotas. Now earlier, the Minister had Indicated that this branch has responsibility for this relationship with Ottawa. Have there been any negotiations around that? Mr. Gl lleshamm er: This branch has not been involved with any negotiations, preliminary or otherwise, with Ottawa at this time. Mr. Alcock: Ottawa moved recently to increase immigration quotas nationally. Did that have any impact on immigration quotas for this province? Mr.

Gl ll eshammer: Our percentage of immigrants coming to Canada has been between 4 percent and 5 percent, so If the number of Immigrants at the national level is increased, there would be a subsequent increase in this province. *

(2100) Mr. Alcock: What is the anticipated numerical Increase as a result of the national change in policy? Mr. Gllle shammer: We have been receiving around 6,000 immigr ants and with the changes it is projected that we would receive around 7,000. Mr. Alcock: One of the concerns that is raised about immigration through a centre like Winnipeg Is that often newly arrived immigrants do not remain here in Manitoba-move east and west. Is there any study done or any indica t ion of how many of them do stick in this province? Mr. Gll leshammer : Our department does not have that information. Mr.

Alco ck: There is an entrepreneurial immigration program that is designed to give certain special status to individuals who are prepared to invest $150,000 in this province. Is that a program that is administered by this branch, or is that something that Is accessed through I,T and T? Mr. GII Ieshammer: Yes, the Department of I,T and T is responsible for that program. Mr.

Alco ck: When we look at the programs that are offered here, the Human Resources Opportunity Program and the Human Resources Opportunity Centres, these are, if I am following what the Minister was saying earlier, diversionary programs, programs attempting to divert people from social assistance and to build a level of independence and self-sufficiency? Is that a fair characterization? Mr. Gll leshammer: Your comment is probably mote apropos to the Employability Enhancement Programs. The people who access the Human Resources Centres have other social problems that these centres try to deal with.

While the objective certainly is to assist them, they may not become employ able and independent, but the Human Resources Opportunity Centres attempt to help them with some of their other problems. Mr. Alc ock: In the draft annual report the branch is characterized as being responsible for the development of programs related to, and there are three areas: Services for Manitoba's newcomer population; employability enhancement for social assistance; vocational counselling and placement of severely employment-disadvantaged individuals into skills training, work experience or work activity.

Now that latter category, is this the category that the Human Resources Opportunity Program and the Centres ate targeted on? Mr. Gll leshamm er: Yes. Mr. Alcock: Would this program area consist of services to mentally handicapped individuals and physically handicapped individuals? Mr. Gllle shammer: No, it is not the sheltered workshops that have the mentally and physically handicapped. Mr. Alco ck: Then could the Minister characterize for us severely employment- di sadvantaged individuals? Mr.

Gll lesham mer: These are individuals without educational and training skills who have been unable to access employment or are not able to, in some cases, be employed for even short periods of time. Mr. Alcock : Is there any understanding of why th at is the case? Mr. Gll lesham mer: In many cases the lack of skills is something that has never been addressed. They have a very poor record of any skills at even attempting to find and hold a job and generally have been on social assistance. Mr.

Alcock: Of the 3,800 people who are, I presume, referred because they are dealt with thr ough the Hu man Resources Opportunity Program, which lists as Its activities assessment and referral, and 1,600 throu gh the Human Resources Opportuniti es Centres which, if I understand the budgeting here, seems to provide a more substantive service. These are neither mentally handicapped or physically handicapped. These people are all basically illiterate, uneducated, untrained?

December 10 , 19 90 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MANI TOBA 2756 Mr .GII Ieshammer: Yes. These are people who had very little training or education and have not been employed for some time. They are not physically or mentally handicapped, but they may have left the school system at a young age or simply left without a lot of skills. The school system provides some vocational training for some students. There are others who are in special classes, occupational entrance classes, occupational skills classes, where they have not received specific training in any particular vocation.

They have a lot of difficulty accessing work, plus the work ethic that perhaps the employer is looking for simply is not there. There is not a job record, very limited communi cation skills; often social skills are underdeveloped. They simply have no work experience or job record on which a prospective employer can measure them or is prepared to take a chance on them. Mr. Alco ck: The Canada-Manitoba Agreement on Employability Enhancement for Social Assistance Recipients, was that involved at all with these particular programs, that encompass these programs? Mr.

Glll eshammer: lt is a separate agreement under the Employability Enhancement Branch. Mr. Alcoc k: I am sorry, Madam Acting Chairperson, but I was being harassed by the Member for St. Norbert (Mr. Laurendeau), so I just have to ask the Minister to repeat his statements. Mr. Gll leshammer: lt is a separate agreement under the Employability Enhancement. Mr. Alcock : The Human Resources Opportunity Pro gram is a separate program under the Canada-Manitoba Agreement for Employability Enhancement for Social Assistance Recipients? I mean, which is who? (Mr. Deputy Chairman in the Chair) *

(2110) Mr. Gll leshamm er: That is what I was referring to as being a separate agreement under the Employability Enhancement. Mr. Alco ck: The support for these centres is a separate agreement. Mr. Gllle shammer: The centres are supported under the Canada Assistance Plan. Mr. Alco ck: The Canada-Manitoba Agreement on Employability Enhancement for Social Assistance Recipients, is that an ongoing agreement under the Canada Assistance Plan? Mr. Gll leshamm er: lt is separate from CAP. Mr. Alco ck: Is that agreement still in force? Mr. Gllle shammer: I am told it is. Mr.

AI cock: Can the Minister tell us what the cost-sharing arrangements are, if any? Mr .GII Ieshammer: lt is a matching amount. Initially, when it started in 1 987, the province put in $3 million and the feds put in $3 million. Mr. Alcock: When it started, the two Governments put in $3 million each in '87. Is that an annual commitment, or is that the total ongoing program? What is the size of the program today? Mr. Gll leshamm er: The total amount of the program now is $12 million. Mr. Alcoc k: Is it $12 million on an annual basis? Is that still shared 50-50 with Ottawa? Mr.

Gll le shammer: lt is still shared 50-50 by Ottawa, but the agreement has expired. lt is on an extension at this time, and it is being negotiated. Mr. Alcock: When did it expire, what date? Mr .GIIIe shammer: lt wentfrom '87 to '89, and it has been extended from that period. lt is under negotiation. Mr. Alcock: Has the Minister been able to anticipate when a new agreement will be in place? Mr. Gll leshammer: The discussions are just beginning. lt is an ongoing thing, so it is difficult to put a time limit on it. Mr.

Alcock: I notice on page 105 of the Supplementary Estimates when we look at the overall budget for the Human Resou rces Opportunity Program, there is about $200,000 in recoveries from other appropriations. Can the Minister tell us what is being recovered from which appropriation? Mr.GII Ieshammer:The Selkirk training plant is now a human resources centre. lt makes so me equipment for parks under Natural Resources, and that is recovered from Natural Resources. Mr. Alco ck: T abies and hibachi s-- $200,000 worth. That recovery is entirely from Parks and Natural Resources? Mr.

Glllesham mer: Yes, I am told it is from Natural Resources. Mr. Alco ck: On the Employability Enhancement Programs that are then offered un der this agreement, and there are a number of them

2757 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA December 10 , 19 90 referenced in the Supplementary Estimates, and a number of them that are detailed in this evaluation that was tabled, the Single Parent Job Access Program, the Job Access for Young Adults-1 guess that is it in terms of the ones that were reviewed. The Community Based Employability Grants, I am not certain whether those were before referred to as the Employment Access for the Disabled, perhaps. What happened to the range of programs then?

If these are the four programs, Single Parent Job Access, Gateway, Job Access for Young Adults and Community Based Employability Projects (t he Grants Program), then the environmental resource projects, Employment Access for the Disabled, Job Transition for Youth, and the municipal-based projects, have they gone out of existence, do they no longer function? Mr. Gl l leshammer: Those ones that you referenced now fall under the last Item, the Community Based Employability Projects. Mr.

Alcock: So what we used to talk about is the Job Transition for Youth which served 191 program entrants, which consis ted of grants to seven community agencies to provide counselling, training and work experience in Brandon, Winnipeg, in the Northern option, et cetera, that is now captured under Community Based Employability Projects? Mr. Gll le shammer: That is correct. Mr. Alcoc k: The Em ployment Access for the Disabled, which servecl87 program entrants, is also under that, as is the environmental resource projects, which served 140 people, and the municipally-based projects, which served 46.

Those are all under the Community Based Employability Projects Grants Program? Mr. Gl ll eshammer: That is correct. Mr. Alco ck: I note, Mr. Deputy Chairperson, that the total amount of funding for the Community Based Employability Projects is around $900,000, and in the programs that I referenced ther e was approximately $2.5 million. So there is a considerable difference in the size of the programs that existed formally and that are now captured under the Co mmunity Based Employability Projects and Grants Program.

I am just wondering if the Minister can explain why these programs were downsized so dramatically? * (21 20) Mr. Gll lesham mer: lt has been indicated to me that there has not been a downsizing, but that significant funds are put into the program by the federal Government. Mr. Alc ock: I am just looking at this report which the department did on the diversion fund, and it does reference amounts against each one of these: Employment Access for the Disabled is .52 million; Job Transition for Youth, .9 million; environmental research projects, .46 million; and municipal-based projects, .57 million.

If we just very quickly add that up, we find that comes to about 2.45; and, if it is a 50-50 cost-sharing, even if that is the explanation, that would be about a $1.2 million program, not a $91 3,000 program. If I am correct in understanding the date that this was done, that was for the year '87-88; we are some three years later. Mr. GII Ieshammer: The report that the Member has that we gave him sh ows the combined federal-provincial support for those. What we are talking about here is the provincial budget, and it shows the amount of money that we have put into the program. Mr.

Alcoc k: Yes, I understood it when the Minister said it the first time, but I also understood, unless I misunderstood what he said earlier, that this was a 50-50 cost-sharing program, so that for every dollar that the province put in the feels put in a dollar. So twice 913 would be 1.8 million, and yet the total in these projects that have been collapsed into this one program line was $2.45 million. There just seems to be a shortfall there; I am just trying to figure out why. Mr. GII Ieshammer: The program, when it started in 1987, called for each level of Government to put in $3 million.

Now that program shows both the province and the federal Government putting in between $5 million and $6 million, so the amount of money has increased. lt may show up in different appropriations, but there has been a significant increase in the amount of money put into this by both the province and the federal Government. Mr. Alc ock: I am not disputing that at all. I am just trying to understand where that has gone because certainly the way that money was allocated in the report that we were given is different from the way it seems to be allocated here.

I mean, presumably that additional money may have gone into the Gateway Program which is not referenced in this study and may provide the difference. Across a range of programs that you were offering before, the amount of money and presumably the number of

December 10 , 19 90 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 2758 people being supported would seem to have decreased rather substantially. Mr. Glll eshammer: We are not sure just what figures you are looking at. Again, I would repeat that the total amount of funding that is put into that has increased. You know, you reference the Gateway Program which is a new program. The amount of money put into those others has not decreased. Mr. Alcock: This is the report that the department tabled at the beginning of the Estimates process.

Again, if you go through and add up the number of people that are listed here against these various lines, it totals 464 people served in the programs that are the subject of this report. On page 1 07 of the Supplementary Estimates you say Community Based Employability Projects will provide grant funding to assist approximately 300 clients. Three hundred is a smaller number than 464, and that would seem to be consistent with the decrease in the funding to that particular area, not the overall program, but just to this particular area. There may be very good reasons for it.

Maybe these programs were not as effective, and you have chosen to reprioritize in some way. Mr. Gll lesh ammer: The report that we gave you earlier was a combined federal-provincial analysis of those programs. The budget that we are going through on a line-by-line basis here is the provincial budget. That may well account for the difference in the figures that you are referring to. Mr. Alcoc k: Do you only account for the number of participants that are supported by your half of the funding? Mr. Gll lesham mer: I am told that is the way we do it. Mr.

Alco ck: The federal Government then operates a portion of this program that is independent of these programs? Mr. Gll lesham mer: Yes. Mr. Alcoc k: Unlike other cost-sharing programs that have pr ovincial delivery and the federal Government simply provides certain funds, the federal Government also operates a companion program in the same program areas alongside of the provincial Government pro grams that deliver services to essentially the same clientele. Mr. Gll lesh ammer: That is correct. Mr. Alco ck: That is something I was unaware of, and it is interesting to note.

I was not aware that the federal Government was going to maintain a program delivery capacity. We will have to ask them those questions federally. On the Job Access for Young Adults program and the Job Transition for Youth programs that are referenced in this evaluation, there seems to be a relatively poor performance in the program. In fact, if one wanted to be critical, and I am, of course not wanting to be that way, but if one wanted to be, you could almost make the case that young people were hurt by going into this program because the comparison group did better in employment than the group in that program.

In fact it says here on page, that is Roman numeral XI, Conclusion 10 that the youth comparison group, that is the non-program group, but the group that was drawn to act as a reference group generally performed better than the youth program cohort. I am wondering if that rather startling finding has been evaluated and we have some explanation for that. Mr. Gll leshammer: Yes, I can provide you with an explanation. There are several possible reasons why the youth comparison group of non-participants generally performed better than youth program participants.

The small sample size could mean that the youth comparison group was not representative of youth participation. Furthermore, there are indications that youth program participants were less educated and less job ready than the overall youth population on social assistance. Mr. Alcock: Was it an evaluation area or is it the evaluation group that failed and that is why we have this particular conclusion? Mr. Gl lle shammer: There may have been a weakness in the evaluation, and/or there may be a problem with the design of the program. That is something we will have to look at. Mr.

Alco ck: Has the current Job Access for Young Adults Program been significantly modified as a result of these findings? Mr. Gll leshammer: I am told that the training period has been made longer. Mr. Alco ck: Is that the only modification? Mr. Gl l leshammer: They are also attempting to do a more thorough job of the initial screening so that people are more job ready. Mr. Alco ck: I note the Minister is studying-is there more to be said to that? Mr. Gll leshammer : No.

2759 LEGISLATIV E ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA December 1 0, 19 90 Mr. Alco ck: The solution to that then is to choose participants who are more skillful than the ones who were chosen before. Is that what the Minister just said? Mr. Glll eshammer: Yes, the screening process hopefully will identify individuals who are more ready for the program. Mr. Alco ck: That strikes me as a rather odd way to deal with the program that is targeted on people who are seriously employment disadvantaged. I mean, if you were to screen in just university graduates your success rate might be absolutely fantastic.

I thought the rationale for these programs was to target them on those people who were least able to find employment. Mr. Gll lesha mmer: Well, it is an attempt to match the interest that individuals have with training that they may be more successful with. I think that certainly I agree that If you wanted to have a 1 00 percent success rate, perhaps you might get some university-trained individuals. I do not know whether there are such people. Mr.

Alcock: I am particularly interested in it , because we are saying then that these programs unlike-! mean there are lots of Education and Training programs that youth in particular can access through the federal Government or through the Department of Education, but we say that we retain these programs in this particular department because it is targeted on those people who are most in need, basically those people who cannot access other forms of support and as a result are on social assistance. • (213 0) Yet then we see that our program has a very low success rate, so we then begin to screen out those people who are at the bottom end.

What then happens to those people who are screened out of these programs? Mr. Gll leshammer : I think it is a constant challenge to try and find programs which are going to be suitable for individuals and, as you have indicated before, where the success rate was not very high, what we are trying to do is provide some alternatives. I think the Member well knows that there are people out there who are very, very difficult to find appropriate training for. If we are going to provide training for individuals who are unemployed, it is best we use our resources where we have some chance of success.

If there are new and different programs that are going to meet the needs of individuals whom we have had great difficulty with, we would be quite interested in knowing about them. I think we cannot give up. lt is an ongoing challenge to try and match individuals out there with training and try and make them productive members of society. Mr. Alco ck: lt is interesting. This review is generally a fairly positive one and does suggest that overall these programs do tend to leave better than half of the people somewhat better off than they were before, with the notable exception of youth.

In addition, this effect, relative to the reference group, would seem to suggest that the youth programs are actually harming youth, although the Minister Is quite right. In a small sample size and the difficulty in choosing a control group and all that, that could be a fallacious finding. 1t also goes on to say in the conclusions on page 9 that all program cohorts, with the exception of youth, were able to increase the employability of the participants, that this program did not seem to have an effect on increasing the employability.

In conclusion three it says, participants from all program cohorts except youth were financially better off. So this seems to have failed youth across a whole range of indicators. If I understood the Minister's response, the program change as a result of this has been simply to lengthen the period that people spend In the program and to screen out those people who might be contributing to this less than happy conclusion. Mr. Glllesham mer: Rather than to characterize it as a failure for youth, I would suggest maybe we have been less successful in that area.

I think we have to continue to try and find programs that will succeed. There are other factors that I think we have to consider with young people, with our youth. In many cases they have experienced a lack of success in the public school system. They have experienced a lack of success in accessing jobs in the real world. The total seriousness of their situation has not yet come home to them. lt may be just a matter of time as they gain some maturity, albeit a very difficult time for them, for parents and others in society.

If we can find alternatives that are going to provide this education for them, we simply may have to wait until they grow a little older and maybe they are more apt to take to some sort of training or education.

December 10 , 19 90 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA 2760 Often youth simply are not ready at a particular time to take seriously the opportunities that are placed in front of them. I think that in cases where we have failed to enhance the employability of young people, it just means that we have to try again. I am sure the Member could even think of cases where the same training or other training becomes meaningful simply because they have advanced in age and perhaps gained some experience. We just have to find appro priate programs for them at the appropriate time. Mr.

Alco ck: I think that actually is a rather enlightened position, frankly .I do think it is quite true that we often I think as a system abuse some youth by trying to serve them when they are not ready for it. Sometimes letting them fail a little can be a very healthy thing. I shall leave that one for a moment. Can the Minister talk a little bit about the Single Parent Job Access Program? Were there significant changes to that program as a result of this evaluation? Mr.

Gllle shammer: After the evaluation of the program, one of the items that was added was to provide training in specific skills, a component that was not there previously. Mr. Alco ck: The evaluation indicated I believe, if I am referencing the right page, that 66 percent of the participants successfully completed their programs. Ninety days later 42 percent were continuing to work and another 11 percent were in training for an impact rate, as they define it here, of about 53 percent.

Roughly half of the people in this particular case of the 675 people whom we are attempting to divert from further reliance on income support would seem to be achieving that goal. Would that rate be consistent with the program today? Mr. Gll lesham mer: Yes. Mr. Alcock: I think then that number in the 675 sole-support parents who are listed in the Expected Results on page 1 07 of the Supplementary Estimates, if it was-1 mean the impact rate that is listed in the study is 53 percent but, for the sake of this discussion, let us say it is half, which would be 337 and a half. Let us not quibble.

What would be the cost of maintaining that many people on income support for a year? *

(2140) Mr. Gll lesham mer: lt depends on the structure of the family, but an estimate is that it would cost $8,000 to $10 ,000 per family. Mr. Alco ck: Then if it is $8,000 to $10,000, and this particular program has a budget of about $1 .9 million, would it be fair to characterize this as a no-cost program, that in fact we are saving from Income Security in the removal of those 337 people, in this example, than we are spending in the operation of the program? Mr.

Gll lesham mer: With all of these programs, the anticipated and hoped-for result would be that there is a net benefit to society, to Government and to the individuals involved. Mr. Alco ck: That is the anticipated and hoped for. Is that the department's experience with this? Are we in fact finding that the diversionary programs are reducing the social assistance caseload and, as a result, lowering our cost in those areas? Mr. Gll lesham mer: As the Member knows, there has not been a decrease in the numbers accessing social allowance, but it is probably slowing down the increase that we would experience. Mr.

Alco ck: Yes, has there been a study of that? Is there any indication that is the-1 kno w we hypothesized that, but is that what is in fact happening? Is the rate of growth-has it noticeably slowed in any statistical way, given the onset of these programs? Mr. Gll lesham mer: Our distinct impression is that it is slowing down the rate of growth and, just like any prevention programs, it is difficult to measure something that did not happen. Mr. Alco ck: Well, we shall not debate that at any great length. You are right, it is very difficult.

Can the Minister just help me understand the difference between Job Access for Young Adults and Gateway other than the size of the programs? Mr. Glll eshammer: The Job Access for Young Adults targets individuals in the age range of 18 to 24,

whereas Gateway is a program that is open to recipients of social assistance who are 18 and over. Mr. Alcock: Yes, I read that part, but 18 or over would presumably include that group between 18 and 24. Mr. Gll lesha mmer: Maybe I could just give you a little more information. Gateway is a combination of up to 52 weeks of classroom and on-the-job training for social assistance recipients 18 years of age or over. The Job Access for Young Adults is a combination of up to 52 weeks of programming, which combines

276 1 LEGISL ATI VE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA December 10 , 19 90 in-s chool training and on-the-job work expe rien ce for 18 - to 24-year-olds lea ding to employmen t in high dem and labour market areas. I am not sure if that helps or not. Mr. Alco ck: I am more inte rested in trying to under stand how you diffe rentia te between two 1 9-year-olds who come looking for assistance. How does one get streamed to Gateway and one to this other program 7 Mr. Gll lesh ammer: The Job Access for Young Adults really targets the 18 - to 24-year-olds and oper ates only in Winnipeg.

The Gateway operates in Winnipeg, Brandon and The Pas and, by and large, services people who are older. I gues s if the Member is pointing out that a 19 -year-old presents himself in Winnipeg , the fact of the matter is that individual could be slotted into either one or the other. Mr. Deputy Chairman: The hour being close to 10 p.m ., I would lik e to ask guidance of the committee if there would be a will to sit after 1 0 p.m . Mr. Alco ck: I believ e, Mr. Deputy Chairpers on, that question was asked in the Chamber earl ier and unanimousconsentwasdenied.

However, I beli eve that the committee can proceed to sit after ten o'clockshould a majority of the committee Mem bers wish to do so. So asking for some kind of-what I would lik e to say, I have to be consistent with the position taken by our Party in the House and say no. Mr. Deputy Chairman: Is that the wish of the committee ? Mr. GIII eshammer: No, let us finish. Mr. Alcock: We ll, after a val iant battle, I must accede to the wishes of the committee. Mr. Deputy Chairman : Then it is agreed . We will sit past ten. Mr. Alco ck: If the Member -Bob, are you from La Verendrye ?

Where are you from? -(interjection) Turtle Moun tai n. Yes, the Memb er for Turtle Mountain (Mr. Rose) asks if he can leave now. I am prepared to give him pe rmission to do so. I can assure him ther e will be no more votes at this point in the even ing. -(i nterjecti on)- Oh, we ll I do not know if that is an equ al. Okay, I would lik e to tal k a li ttle bit about the Immigration and Sett lem ent Services then at this point. I appreciate the Minister's assistance with the emp loym ent programs, and we will come back and tal k about them in a few minutes. * (21 50) An Honourable Member: Did we pass somet hing?

Mr. Alcoc k: No. We would not want to break a tradition at this point in the even ing, would we ? In the Expected Results under Immigration and Set tlem ent Services , 09-SD-4, we tal k abou t the- this is on page 1 09 -ad mission of approximate ly 30 special-needs refu gees. I am wondering if the Minister can explain who this group is. Mr. Gll leshammer : Ye s, I can read some information into the record for you.

This program is based on a 19 81 agre em ent between the Minister of Labour and Manpower and the federal Minister of Employment and Immigration: facilitates private sponsorship and the resettl ement in Manitoba of refugees with special needs. Manitoba will admit up to 30 cases a year under this program. Refugees admitted under the term s of this program are inad mi ssi ble according to Canada's normal selection criteria. There are three compone nts of this SPAR program. The first involves the admission of unaccompanied minors who have not reached the ir 18 th birthday and have been separated from their parents.

The second involves persons whose physical or men tal health does no t conform with standards es tabl ished by Health and Welfar e Canada and are termed or deemed medically inadmissible. The third involves sett lemen t-ri sk refugee families and at-risk refugee women . Mr. Alco ck: There were unaccompanied minors, people with physical disabil ities and medical conditions who might not otherwise be admissible. Then he me ntioned women of some sort. Could he te ll me what that last category was? Mr. GII Ieshammer:You are right. The third involves settl eme nt-risk refugee famil ies and at-risk refugee women. Mr.

Alco ck: How do we determ ine if someone is at risk? Is at-risk in the country that they are coming from, or is at-risk because of special needs her e? Mr. Gll leshamm er: The at-risk refers to the refugee camps in which they are located. Mr. Alcock: Did the Minis te r tal k about sett lemen t-risk? Mr. Gll lesham mer: Yes, I indicated that the third group involv es set tlemen t-risk refugee families.

December 10 , 19 90 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEMB L V OF MAN ITOBA 2762 That refe rs to large famil ies who would have difficulty getting resettl ement in other countries. Mr. Alcock : Pres uma bly through the fede ral immigration people and others who are working in these camps, they determ ine that a certain number of individuals or families are at high risk and under this program we admit 30 of the m? Mr. Gll lesham mer: That is correct. Mr.

Alco ck: Then in the Bridging Cultur es Program, where we talk about at-risk immigrant families, we are talking about people who are at risk and somehow within our community, as opposed to being at risk in the camps or in their own countries. Mr .G III eshammer: Yes, there is a distinction there . Mr. Alcoc k: In the Bridging Cultures Program, the being at-risk here in Canada is at risk of what? •

(2200) Mr. Gll leshamrner : These are individuals and families who would have rese ttlemen t difficulties her e. There is perhaps some tur moil in the family, and they are having difficulty getting resettled in this country. Mr. Alco ck: How do we go about identifying those famili es who are at risk her e, versus the other however many come in? Mr. Gll lesha mmer: I think the Mem ber knows that. The individuals we are talking about in this program are identified by the federal Gover nmen t before they are brought to Canada.

With the program you are asking about that our Govern ment sponsors, the famil ies at risk are identified by the ethnocultural communities and brought to our attent ion. Mr. Alco ck: When I look at the numbers that are listed in the Expected Resu lts her e, we have 500 immigrants and refugees through Immigrant Access Ser vice, rela ted counsel ling ser vices to approximately 500 newcomers and then the 30 special needs refu gees. Would these two groups of 500 be 500 different individuals, or is ther e any cross-over between those two groups? Mr.

Gll lesham mer: They are different groups but �ere may be some crossover. Mr. Alcock: Would it be fair to say that of the 6,000 or so immigrants, soon to be 7,000 or so immigrants, that come each year to this province, that roughly some number around or sligh tly below 1 ,000 are receiving direct services from this branch? Mr. Gll lesham mer: That is correct. Mr. Alco ck: I unde rstand then how the 30 special needs refugees is a Manitoba commitment to the inte rnational community and to the nati onal immigration program.

The 500 immigrants, or the two groups of 500 that get service through these other programs, how are they identified and how do they access those services? Mr. Gll lesham rner: They are drawn to our attention by the ethnocultural community, but we also have access worker s who may enc ou nter these individuals as we ll. Mr. Alcock : There is an indication of 26 new positions and 29 previous placem ent s for recent immigrants in professional and technical operations under Program Recognition. Is this recognition of professional credentials possessed by people from other countries? Mr. Gll lesham rner: Ye s. Mr.

Alcock: Can the Minister describe this program to me? This is an issue here that has been discussed at some le ngth relative to the med ical community, but I also know that within my own riding, there are a large number of Polish immigrants with training in dentistry, and within the de ntal profession in ge neral , who are in much the same position as some of the doctors that were talked about. I am just wonderi ng how people access this program and what professions it is reaching out to? (Mrs. Shiriey Render, Acting Chairman, in the Chair) Mr.

Gll lesham mer: This program is to encourage the creation of new permanent professional and te chnical positions by providing wage assistance to private sector business es. By targeting these newly created positions for qualified landed immigrants and recently naturalized Canadians, this program will assist newcomer s in obtaining me aningful Cana dian work experie nce in their fields of exper tise . I read into the record earlier the types of positions that we are talking about. There are people lik e lab assistants, dental technicians, aircraft me chanics, accountants, legal assistants and others.

I guess it is so Important that we work to assimilate these individuals into our society and Into the job market.

2763 LEGISLATIV E ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA December 10 , 19 90 At the same time, I think it is important that the standards are maintained . I am just pe rsonally aware of a person who was a health care practitioner who was allo wed to practise her profession but then failed very narrowly to pass the exam and as a res ul t will have to re-do the exam I believe in six months. As I thought about it and talked to one of my colleagues, there is a trem endous liabil ity that would exist if a person like that was perm itted to continue practising.

So I say that we have to be very careful in evaluating individuals like this to see that they do meet a minimum standard. Mr. Alc ock: Yes, I certainly would support the Minister on that. I think the real question is, do they have an opportunity to access the certification programs and apply for the certification in this country so their skills can be shared with all of us? I have no further questions. The Acting Chairman (Mrs. Render) : Item 6.(d)( 1) Branch Operat ions, $1 45,700-pass;

(2) Human Resour ces Oppor tun ity Pr ogram , $6, 15 6,1 00-pa ss;

(3) Em ploy abil ity Enhancemen t, $4,956,800-pass;

(4) Immigration and Settl ement Services, $1 , 13 3,600-pass. * (221 0) (Mr. Marcel Lauren deau, Depu ty Chairman, in the Chair) Mr. Deputy Chairman: Resolution 52: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $65,1 97,600 for Family Services for the financial year ending the 31 st day of March, 19 91 -pass. The last item to be considered for the Estimates of the Departm en t of Family Services is item (

a) Minister's Salary. At this point we request that the Minister's staff leave the table for consideration of this item . Item 1. (a), shall the item pass? Mr. Alc ock: I do unde rstand that when the Minister's Party was in Opposition they had a tradition of propos ing all sorts of innovativ e amendmen ts to this particular item. I beli eve there were quantities of asphalt and other such items offered in substitution for the Minister's salary. I would like to close this by not proposing such an amendmen t. I think that if there is any Minister in Govern ment that earns his sala ry, it is this Minister.

I want to just take advantage of this momen t to thank the Minister very sincerely for the time, effort and ene rgy that he and his staff have put in, for his openness and his willing ness to share informati on. I cannot recall an Estimates process wher e we have had such open discussion on substantive issues and such real information presented and discussed. I think that is to the credit of this particular Ministe r. I want to thank the staff because they worked extre mely hard and those little misses that came out each meeting I found extr emely help ful.

I hope that this characterizes an attitude with this dep artment that will continue into the future. I found this an interesting test drive if you lik e of this department and sort of a warm-up to the real Estimates that will take place in the spring. For this Minister, lik e a lot of new Ministers, occupies a unique position in that he is new to the dep artment so it is more difficult for him to be held accountable for some of the activities that the department may have undertak en. This will not be the case in the spring.

The Minister now has a period of time to focus on his de partmen t to deal with many issues that confront him and to put forward in the next budget, which will be his first budget, somet hing that reflects his philo sophy and his belie fs about this depa rtment. I look forward to engaging in the exam ination of those Estimates. I hope at that time that we will see a department that has spen t some time exam ining its organization lik e the Minister has indicated, that has done a li ttle more work to anticipate some of the things that impact on this departm ent.

If there was one thing I was a little distressed with, which was how little this department looks down the road. I hope that the Minister will have had an opportunity to address some of the concerns that were raised in Rehab and Community Living, and particularly look at the way in which some of the attempts to downsize the institutions have perhaps not been as successful as we have hoped .

I hope that by the time we are next at this table that we will have some substantive agreements in place with the Child and Family Services agencies so that we have some comfort that these agencies will not continue to be so damaged as they have been in this past ye ar. Also, I want to share with the Minister one thing though that occurred to me when we talked about

December 10 , 19 90 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMB LY OF MAN ITOBA 2764 the Income Security area, because we did talk during the Estimates about caseloads of 240 per worker and those sorts of things. I have asked peopl e who contact m�ne of the concerns that gets raised is how difficult it is to access help.

When we develop a system that forces people to go back to these over worked workers, it often creates frustration for the workers as well as the re cipients, but just to give the Minister some fee ling for that I asked all of the recipien ts that I talked to to keep records for me about the ir exper iences with the de partment . I encountered a person the other night at an env ironmen tal meeting in my riding who told me that she tried to call her worker the other day, and she had to try 71 time s before the phone would ring because she got a busy signal every other time.

When the phone finally rang, it rang 32 times and nobody answered it, so she hung up, thought maybe she was callin g the wrong number, hung up and called back again. lt rang 16 times the second time before it was answered, and when it was answered, she was put on hold for ei ght minutes and 56 seconds. Then she finally got a hold of her worker who asked her why she had not called soone r.

I just think it is illu strative of the kind of pressure that these people are under, and I do not hold the workers entirely accountable for that because with workloads of 240 cases each, and with the kind of pressures that they are under, it is no wonde r that these kinds of situations occur. 1t leads to enormous pressur e on everybody concerne d and grea t frustration on the part of al l who are involved. I must say I do not under stand the rationale for organizing this last division.

I think to try to jam together programs that are so desperate and so not a part of each other into a division simply for organizational reasons is silly -just to make the organizational chart lo ok pretty. I hope , and the Minister has indicated, that there will be some effort at reor ganizing both the re gional operations across the three areas that deliv er regional services for areas, I guess, if you include the private agencies. I would hope that there is some better defi nition of the boundaries betw een the emplo yment, immigration and day care programs into the future. .

This is not a departm ent that is going to have its problems resolved overnig ht, or even in this next budget, or this next decade, or probably within my lifeti me. I would just lik e to close by wishing the Minister, the staff and all those people who are so affected by this de partmen t the very best as you atte mpt to do what you have before you . Once again, thank you very much. Ms. Barrett: Mr. Deputy Chairman, I did want to have the final word this time in this division.

I would lik e to also share some of my fe elings having gone through this approximately 43 or 44 hours of Estimates. lt has bee n a very long, and I might say, in many ways grue ling experien ce, alth ough it has been a very positive one too. I have appreciated the good humour I think almo st more than anything el se of the Minister. I can only assume I know what he has gone through, this being his first Estimates process as a brand new Minister. I have a bit of an understand ing of that seei ng as how it is my first Estimates process as the critic.

I will admit with complete honesty that it is much easier to be the critic than it is to be the Minister, particularly the first time and particularly in this department. This department has the third highest amount of money spent on it, but I would say arguably-! know that Honourable Memb er s her e would perhaps disagree with me-but I think in many ways it is the most important depart ment of the Governmen t. lt deals with issues, people and probl ems that are the most intractable that we as a society have to face. lt deal s with those proble ms when they have become the most problemat ic. *

(2220) We have not yet mana ged to get to wher e prev en tion and intervention at early stages are something that we are able to do with great re gula rity. I have begun to understand, and only begun to unde rstand, the compl exi ty of this de partment, the range of this depart men t. I think that there are problems with the way it is organized. I am sure there have be en probl ems with the way these services have been organized since the ve ry begi nning.

I anticipate that this department, which I think of as a li ving thing, will continue to change and evolve over time and would anticipate there might even be some changes between now and the next time we meet. I have learned a great deal. I will admit with the Honourable Member for Osborne (Mr. Alcock), I wil l agree with him that this was a learning experie nce for all of us, and that the next budget Estimate process will probably be different than this one .

2765 LEGISLATIV E ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA December 10 , 19 90 I think that the Minister has stated several times that we are in a period of transition and in a period of stabil lzatio n. He has made that point clear to not only Mem bers in the House and in this Estimates process, but also to organizations that have be en me eti ng with him and have been aski ng for me etings with him and have been asking for direction and assistance. I think that the departmen t, the Minister, the staff, the programming will all be held more accountable this next budget.

We will all be looki ng, as we all should be looki ng, very close ly at what the programs are , how the dep artment is del ivering those programs, how it is me eting Its goals and operating principles which I think are ex cellen t. I think that they certainly cover all of the basic areas . I think this Gover nmen t this year has put a li ttle more em phasis on some of these goals and principles than others. I would disagree with some of the em phasis that has been placed on some of the goals and operating principles.

I am lo oking very forwar d to seeing how the Min ister and the depar tmen t work through the budge t-m aking process in coming forward with the Estimates next year. I certainly hope that we are able to start the process on time, more or less on time, so that we can get through the process. I think it is very important for organizations and agencies to know what they are going to have to spend early in the fiscal year. Again, that is something that the en tire Govern men t, both Governm ent and Opposition, will have to work on to make sure that process does come to pass on time.

I will not say it has been fun. lt has been a very long process, but I think it has been a very important one . I have learned a lot and many, many elemen ts of it have been very enjoy able . I do give the Minister a lot of credit for having gone through a very difficult first two months in a very difficult position. I think he has handled himself very we ll. I congratulate him for that and wish him all the best in the holi day seas on. Mr. Gll leshammer: I would just close by saying that I sincerely appreciate the kind words of not only the Member for Osborne (Mr. Alcock), but the Memb er for We lli ngton (Ms.

Barrett) as we ll. There does seem to be a recognition that this department has had some difficul ties in the past. The Memb er for Osborne said he did not think things woul d change in his lifet ime. I think things have changed and wil l continue to change, and hope fully we will leave it more positive and bette r than we found it. I would say to the Member for We lli ngton (Ms. Barrett) , your Leader had indicated to me that Mother Teresa could not run this dep artment and also assured me that I was not Mother Teresa. One of your caucus Memb ers referred to this dep artmen t as the department of human misery.

There see ms to be that sort of recognition that this departm ent is fraught with problems that people have a difficult time resolvi ng. The challenge I would throw out to the Memb er for Wel li ngton (Ms. Barrett) and her counterpart, the Memb er for Osborne (Mr. Alcock) is that maybe we can work together to bring about some positive changes. I think this departmen t has been much, much too easy to play politics with, and I do not think we serve the people of Manitoba very we ll by doing that. I appreciate the kind words that she has said this · even ing and also the Memb er for Osborne.

Maybe the three of us can work together a little more to bring about some positive changes. Mr. Deputy Chairman: Item 1 .(

a) Minister's Salary $20,600-pass. Resolution 47: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $7,069,400 for Family Services for the financial year ending the 31 st day of March, 19 91 --pass . This comple tes consideration of the Estimates of the Dep artmen t of Family Service s. The time be ing after 10 p. m., committee rise . SUP PLY-ENVIRONMENT Madam Chair man (Loulse Dacq uay) : Orde r, please. Would the Committee of Supply come to orde r, please . The Com mittee of Supply will continue to consider the Estima tes of the Departm en t of Environment. We are considering item 2.

Environme ntal Managem en t. Mr. Paul Edwards (St. Ja mes) : Madam Chairperson , when we last were considering these Estimates I had just put a ques tion to the Minister about sewage lagoons and sep tic fields, and specific to sewage lagoo ns, at the outset, I wonder if he re memb ers the questi on? Can he answer it, or would he lik e me to repeat it? Hon. Gl en Cummlngs (Minis ter of Environme nt): If I re mem ber, the Member was asking the method

December 1 0, 19 90 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA 2766 of en forcemen t on sewage la goons and some implication of whether or not sewage lagoons function in our envir onment. Cert ainly the opinion of myself and I think the de partment that sewage lagoons will operate under Canadian envir onment, Manitoba en vironment if you wil l-all licences require monitoring of those lagoons and their discharges. Mr. Edwards: I see the Minister is going to be standing. He and I both are suffering, I think, from ailmen ts.

Perhaps it is time to get this over with. -(interjection)- I do not speak for my frien d in the other Party, but I am not in a particularly fit state myself tonight. I have a letter which I am prepared to table from the Prem ier (Mr. Filmon) dated August 20 of this year to Mr. Dal myn which indicates that the Premier has been advi sed by the Dep ar tm ent of Environment that they were undert aking a major review of the private sewage disposal syste ms regulation under The Environment Act on a priority basis. I wonder if the Minister can give us a report on how that review is going? Mr.

Cumml ngs : Yes, there has been an internal group tha t has done a majo r red raft of the re gula tions, and it has had some public input because I know Mr. Dalmyn has had an opportunity to comment on it. There will be further publi c discussion and then the regs shoul d be final ized . Mr. Edwards: The Minister and his departm ent may be aware of a report which arose out of a confere nce sponsored, I be liev e, by the federal Dep artmen t of Environmen t, and I believe if I am not mistaken, it was approximately 19 85. That report has been specifically drawn to the departme nt's atte ntion repeatedly by Mr.

Dalmyn who is a constituent of mine and who I have had the opportunity to meet with on a number of occasions. .. (201 0) That re port states in part, page 9, with respect to sewage la goons, that viruses are re gul arly found in lagoon effl uen ts and that cold climate lagoons some how seem to contribute to the longevity of those micro-org anisms, then goes on to state that the lagoons allo w these micro-org anisms to escape thermal shock by all owing them time to acclimatize to the cold envir onmen t.

The micro-or ganism is quite dangerous in fact to public health if allo wed to en ter the water stream in any significant numbe rs, re maining viable in cold climate la goons. Has the departm ent conside red those conclusions which stem from that re port, and are they still convinced that cold climate lagoons in this province do work to do what they are supposed to do? Mr. Cumml ngs : The department says they are we ll aware of the report, and they are tracking this type of contamination. Mr.

Edwards: If I am not mistake n, and if the department is we ll aware of the re port, they can confirm what year-1 think it is 19 85. If they are tracking the proble m, or consideri ng it, what have the conclusions been? Do cold climate sewage lagoons do al l they are intended to do or not? Mr. Cumml ngs : Yes, they do. Mr. Edwards: Does the Minister say, does his de partment say that this conclusion from this report is totally fallacious, without mer it? Is that the conclusion we are to draw? Mr. Cummlngs : The conclusions are not false , however, neither should we panic. We should put them in context.

That is, there can be situations during cold weather when there might be some lev els that would be detect able. That is why we are tracking and monitoring to make sure that nothing is allowed to get to a lev el that we woul d consider a concern. Many times I suppose , the managemen t of the lagoon itself, in cold weather, can provide the margin of safety that is req uired. Mr. Edwards: lt has just come to my attention that in fact the report is 19 87 which I have been quoting from. Can the Minister indicate-he says that these lagoons are monitored for bacteria leve ls to make sure they are worki ng.

Can he indi cate the monitoring process, how often it is done , what in fact the testing procedure is? Mr. Cumml ngs: I think I got this one right. I have at least two out of four that agree. The fact is that these la goons are monitored prior to release , that is usually a twice-a-year re lease . Mr. Edwards: Is the checking that is done by the departm ent-what occurs, if in fact there do appear to be problems upon checking a sewage lagoon? What is the process for bringing that to the attention of the appropriate authorities? Mr.

Cumml ngs: If tests gave result s that we were not satisfied with, there would eit her be no discharge or chlorination of the effluent would be re quired . Mr. Edwards: This re port, which the Ministe r has

2767 LEGISLA TIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA December 1 0, 19 90 indicated his dep artment is famil iar with, indicates that the impl ications to public health loom large of the then cold climate sewage la goon syste m. At that confere nce, again if I am not mistaken, the Province of Manitoba was represented. Is the Minister saying that there is no problem? What can he te ll us? Is he saying that our lagoons are not cold climate lagoons, that is why they were not talking about it? Is he saying that everything is fine?

Or is there a cause for some concern and some reth inking of our approach to cold climate sewage lago ons? Mr. Cumml ngs : The reason that we are monitoring and controlling them is to make sure that any concerns are kept under control. I did not say that, to use the Mem ber's words, there was no reason for concern. Obvio usly any dis charge has to be properly monitored. I think maybe the difference comes in whether or not the Memb er bel ieves that there is re gul ar, ongoing discharges from lagoons or whether they are controlled discharges, they are allowed after they have been monitored and tested.

The latter is the case; therefore you can deal with the problem of cold weather by retenti on. That is why the capacity of lagoons in this province are ge nerally engineer ed to accommodate that. Mr. Edwards: Can the Minister indicate if there have, in fact, bee n any overflows caused not by des ign, but caused by runoff being such that there were discharges that were perhaps not preferred by the people running the lagoon , but sim ply happened ? Have there been any of those in the last year in this province? Mr.

Cumml ngs: I am told that any overflows which would come as a result of overfi llin g of a lagoon are very rare , and not normally of the nature that would get into a stream . If a lagoon is overfilled or exceeds its capacity prior to its normal discharge time, the department would do testing to see if it was possible to discharge it, then might well allow discharge ahead of time if it is within acceptable bounds. *

(2020) Mr. Edwards: Have there in fact been-1 want to just restate this. I appreciate the Minister's answe r; it is informativ�ischarges, which were the result of emer gency situa tions rather than plan ned discharges in which the appropriate guarantees that the Minister speaks of were not in place? Have there been any of those in the last year? I know the Clean Environment Commission in the report I read some time ago has certainly noted that those ha ve happened on occasion .

The municipalities, for whatever reason, simply do not have the capacity to take the sewage that is being created and dump it, or it simply runs out because the lagoon is not big enou gh. Is the Minister saying that has not happene d in the last year? Mr. Cumml ngs: The department does not read ily recall any time when this has happened. lt has probably occurred on one or two occasions across the province, probably within the course of a year.

Usually what you are talking about-unle ss the Mem ber has other information I am not aware of, it would be where a cell overflowed, and not that raw sewage was pumped directly, other than under control led circumstances. No one can recall when we have lice nsed that to occur. Mr. Edwards: With respect to the discharges that do occur, whether controlled or otherwise, what is the pote ntial health hazard of micro-organisms being put into the en vironmen t which then get into the normal water stream ? What are the signs that discharges have occurred improperly? Mr.

Cumml ngs : I am not sure if I unde rstood the qu esti on. Is the ques tion, would ther e be downstream pro blems for population and what are the signs of those , or what are the signs if an inspector goes around and is looki ng for il legal discharge? Which one is he refe rring to? An Honourable Member: Answer both, if you can. Mr. Cumml ngs : I am sorry I gave him the idea.

To answe r the first one, the obvious woul d be and obviously why we insist on drinking water standards in this province, treatment of water being put into syste ms wher e it is going into households to protect against just that poten tial , from whatever source, whether it is from natural sources or whether it is from a discharge, the hypothetical question you are referring to. In terms of what would the departmen t do to check, fecal coliform counts would go up and surface water source would not be potable without treatment as a result of that. lt would be, I take it, primarily through checking fecal coliform.

Mr. Edwards: Madam Chairpers on, I am not a chemist or have not had training in what the Minister speaks of, the coliform count. Can the Minister maybe give me some direction? The testing for E. Coli, is that what we are speaki ng of, that coliform count is an E. Coli count? -(inter jection)- Okay.

December 1 0, 19 90 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA 2768 Is there also testing done of potential viruses in sewage lagoons on a re gul ar basis in the province? Mr. Cummlngs : No, there is not. Mr. Edwards: Does the Minister not acknowledge that in fact viruses such as the pol io virus, according to this study of 1987, survived three times as long as- longer than E. Coli and stre ptococci or whatever the othe r. I understand that woul d be another micro-organism, and that viruses in fact, according to this expert, were regul arly found in lagoon effl uence .

Does that not warrant checking for viruses in our lagoons? Mr. Cumml ngs : Madam Chairman, the department te lls me that E. Coli would be a- fecal coliform tests woul d be an indicator, and they would automatically assume the potential of the others being there if they found that indicator rising. Mr. Edwards: I take it that the presence or absence of E. Coli somehow leads the inspe ctors to know whe ther or not viruses exis t without doing an inde pendent virus test. Is that the gist of what the Minister is saying? Mr.

Cummlngs : Regul ation and the operations would- the principle that would be followed woul d be that they would make the worst case assumption based on E. Col i tests and take appr opria te me asures. Mr. Edwards: Where E. Coli is present or even present in acceptable lev els, is it impossible that viruses exist at a level which is not acceptable? Mr. Cummlngs: The assum ptions are tha t statistically you would not exp ect to find those viruses if E. Coli could not be found in any samples taken. Mr.

Edwards: Is that assumption one that is widely held in the community, because I point to at least one author who clearly questions that assumption and recommen ds the testing of cold climate sewage lagoons for viruses ? Is that an assumption which the Minister is prepared to say that his departm ent has investigated and has determ ined is an inaccurate conclusion of this author and one that does not warrant virus testing specifically in lagoons? Mr.

Cummlngs : Protocol at the De partmen t of Environme nt follo ws as est abl ished under the Canadian drinking water standards and is, I am told, widely accepted as being of a high standard and state of the art in te rms of making sure that ther e is safe drinking water available and to extrapolate from that the processes that we follow. *

(2030) We bel ieve that we are doing everything that is re quired to assure the safety of those who may be ex posed or pote ntially be exposed under circumstances that you describe, but that does not necessarily directly contradict what you have in front of you, but the process that we are following we fe el is one that is national ly accepted. Mr. Edwards: Is the protocol the Minister speaks of specific on the issue of the need to check for viruses in lagoons in addition to coliform counts? Mr. Cumml ngs: Perhaps I have done it myself, but the fact is we are tal king about two diffe re nt standards.

You asked about testing standards that we use for potable wate r, but at the same time, in tes ting lagoons we would not be fol lo wing the drinking water standard in testing the lagoon. We would be using the drinking water standard to test wate r that was going for human consumption. Therefore you assume that not very many, or no one , should be drinking untreated water or water from any other source than one that they can identify. There certainly are no statistics that support that there are dangers or outbreaks relative to these diseases that can be in any way traced to water consumption. Mr.

Edwards: We have been speaking about two things. Let me ask the n, specifically, with respect to checking the lagoons, not potable wate r, but lagoons and the checks that are done of lagoons by the department. Do they check for viruses? If not, is there some protocol-- was the protocol the Minister was speaking of specific to potable water? Given that, is the de partmen t not concerned that there is a need to do checks for viruses as well as E. Coli, and have they come to the conclusion that at least this author is wrong about the need to do that?

Perhaps the Minister can indicate what evid ence they have based thei r conclusion on, which contradicts this one? Mr. Cumml ngs: The de partmen t is not rejecting what conclusions are drawn in that report that you refer to but is indicating that using the indicator of coliform that they do not routinely test for viruses, and to our knowledge, no other jurisdiction does in this country ei ther in te rms of checking lagoo ns. There may be greater statistical evidence with the Depa rtmen t of Health , but we do not have any, and

2769 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MANITOBA December 10 , 19 90 therefore feel reasonably secure that the process that we are using is ensuring the safety of the public. You are making the assumption that any discharges from lagoons could automatical ly lea d to an outbreak of some type of viral infection. What I am saying is that the tests that are used do not allow for discharge whe n it would deem to be, using the col iform basis, improper to discharge. ! am sure-a nd I have not read the report particularly , but I have had some communication with Mr.

Dalmyn. lt would appear that he is basing a lot of conclusions on that report. We do not have s tatistical evidence to draw other conclusions beyond what protections were taken. Mr. Edwards: Is there statistical evidence that this re port is wrong? Mr. Cummln gs: No, we did not say it was wrong. I said a momen t ago we were not disputing the re port, but neither should the Member necessari ly indicate that the tests that we are using are necessarily wrong. Mr. Edwards: Let me ask, because I think perhaps the Minister was under the assumption we were talki ng about potable water when I asked this question before.

Is it necessarily true that, as E. Coli count goes up and down, or lev els are present which are acceptable or not acceptable , you can judge whether or not there are viruses which might be harmful to human health , which are also present in acceptable levels or not acceptable levels. Are the two link ed so that an E. Coli test can te ll you whe ther or not viruses are present which might be harmful to human health ?

H the dep artment is doing tests and subseq uen tly al lowing certain discharges and certain cases, which the Min ister has already talked about, without checking for viruses and viruses are present, then they are not insuring that the discharges are in fact acceptable . Is the Minister saying that the tests for E. Coli satisfy the need to det ermine whether or not harmful viruses are present or not? Mr. Cumml ngs : The de partment is satisfied that testing for E. Col i is a reasonable indicator and, if you control the E. Coli lev el, operate the lagoon so the E.

Coli level is maintained at acceptable lev els or belo w acceptable lev els, that also will control any virus. Mr. Edwards: Madam Chairper son, I am sure the Minister is tiring of this line of ques tioning, I certainly am. I would li ke an answer that satisfies my lay per son's conclusions which are to be drawn from this report. This report states that E. Coli actually does not satisfy all the criteria of an indicator organism. The Minister se ems to be suggesti ng that test for E. Coli is sufficient. lt will te ll you if the viruses are present in acceptable or non-acceptable lev els. This report disagrees.

Does he disagree with this re port? I do notthink that you can have both. l do not think you can say the re port is right, but we do not need to test for viruses, because this report says you have to test for viruses if you want to protect the public he alth . They say, not tes ting for viruses has impl ications to public health that loom lar ge. *

(2040) Mr. Cumml ngs: We have not had any evide nce, I am told , that there have been viral outbreaks that would indicate that we are not kee ping this matte r well under control. The issue is not to dispute the report that the Mem ber has in his hand. lt would seem that we are we ll within the national standards in term s of the testi ng that we do.

To my knowled ge, no other jurisdiction is doing that testi ng, and that would indicate to me that if everybody is still using that as a re asonable standard for testing in this country, and given the current good health of the popula tion across the nation, I would suggest that there is no evidence to show that the process is not working wel l. That is not to say that more could not be done, but I think when you are lo oking for those types of additional tests to be imposed on lagoons, that we have to make sure that we do an adequate job and do it with a reasonable eff iciency. Mr.

Edwards: What would be the additional cost? Can the Minis ter indicate, has ther e been an investigation by his department as to what the additional cost would be of doing those types of checks at the same time as the coliform counts were done? Mr. Cumml ngs : I do not think I referred to costs. I said efficiency. These tests would probably have to be done by the Department of Health . Ward Lab does not have the virology capacity, if that is the right te rm. I was referring to the efficie ncy of getting the work done so we could manage the number of lagoons that we are resp onsible for. Mr.

Edwards: Madam Chairpers on, with respect to the issue of flu oridation, that is one that as the Minister knows ther e has been an ongoing debate for many, many years.

December 1 0, 19 90 LEGISLA TIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA 2770 Can the Minister indicate what the present view of the departm ent is with respect to fluor idation and its impact on public health , whe ther or not his de partment continues to support fluor idation as a des ired input into the water system, and I guess impl icit in that is whether or not they agree that there are any envir onmen tal impacts which are negative as a result of fluoride being put into the water supply? Mr. Cummlngs: The ques tion should be more correctly put to the Department of Health , as the re gula tor in that area.

As far as en vironmen tal impacts of the adding to the water, we have not identified that is an issue that the public needs to be concerned about. Mr. Edwards: Madam Chairperso n, have there been studies done with respec t to the Lake Winnipeg watershed and the effect of fluoride on the water and soil quali ty In that area as a result of the fluoridation of Winnipeg' s water supply? Mr. Cumml ngs : There have been studies of the effluent from the Winnipeg trea tment plants, and there is no indication that there is fluo ride discharge there that is a proble m.

One should also take note of the fact that there is a low level background fl uoride level in the water that Winnipeg pipes in, in the first place . Coming out of Shoal Lake there is a fluoride lev el, and I cannot recall the figures. lt se ems to me it is .03. lt is identified. I have seen the figure, but I cannot tell you what it is. The fact is the Shoal La ke wate r has a background fluoride lev el in it that has to be taken into account presumably when the fluoridation is done. Mr.

Edwards: Perhaps the Minister can elaborate, .03 or whatever he is tal king about, he says that is a natural lev el of fl uoride in the water. What lev el is pumped in or put in the system before it reaches the resident of the City of Winnipeg? Mr. Cumml ngs : Madam Chairman, I should not try and go by memo ry on that detaile d a figure . I cannot quote with certainty what the background fl uoride level is.

I was simply putting that fact on the record so one would not assume that it is unnatural to find fl uoride occurring naturally in the water systems. lt can and does occur naturally, and that was simply why I indicated that Shoal Lake water, without anything added to it, has a me asurable background fl uoride lev el. Mr. Edwards: Of course not, Madam Chairper son, but as the Minister is certainly aware, ther e is a man-m ade addition of flu oride to the water supply. One comme ntator has indicated that in 1988 , for the City of Winnipeg, that amounted to some 145 tons.

Can the Minister indicate whether or not that would be an accurate conclusion as to the amount of fluoride that was in fact put into Winnipeg's water supply? Mr. Cumml ngs : I am not the reg ula tor in that area. I do not have that information. Mr. Edw ards : Madam Cha i rpers on, that comme ntator has also concluded- this I think will be clearly within the Minister's jurisdiction-that each year some 21 tons of that are introduced into the aquifers and stream beds between Indian Bay and Winnipeg.

Now, would the Minister consider that level of depositing of fluoride in that area a poll uter and something worthy of attention from his department as en vironme ntal pollution? Mr. Cummlngs: If I am talking about the same thing that the Mem ber is, tests were done regar ding the one well-pub licized spil l that occurred, and certainly we were unable to detect anything that caused any changes in the background lev els of fluoride . If he is indicating that it has got into an aquifer somewhere , perhaps he would lik e to elaborate. Mr.

Edwards: No, I am simply indicating that, of course, at Indian Bay, it is my unde rstanding that the fluo ride is introduced-1 may be wrong about that, but that is my information-and that some 20 to 21 tons, specula tors have indicated, ends up back in the envir onment, specifically the Lake Winnipeg watershed area. I wonder, and I gather the Minister is saying that there is no environm ent al effect which should cause any concern, if in fact that level of tonnage of fluoride each year, some 20 or 21 tons, will not in fact ove r time cause envir onme ntal problems. Mr.

Cumml ngs : lt is my under standing that fluo ride does break down in the env ironmen t, and that may we ll be occurring in Winnipeg's treatment plants before they are discharged. *

(2050) Mr. Edwards: The Minister indicates that may we ll be happening. Has the departm ent done any testing to det ermine what the en vironme ntal effect has been, or is lik ely to be , with that level of tonnage of fluo ride en te ring the watershed after it has come through Winnipeg city's water system?

277 1 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MANITOBA December 10 , 19 90 Mr. Cumml ngs: Testing of the rivers and testi ng, as I have said earl ier, I am referri ng to discharges from the plants, we are not detecting any leve ls of fl uoride that woul d cause concern. Mr. Edwards: Can the Ministe r indicate with what re gulari ty that testing is done , and whether or not it has been done, for instance, in the last year? Mr. Cummlngs: Rive r quality is tested monthly. Mr. Edwards: Where is it tested on the river? Mr.

Cummlngs: Ther e are both upstream and downstream tests taken, plus at three points within the city jurisdiction. Mr. Edwards: Al l of those points are tested on a monthly basis? Is that what the Minister is saying? Mr. Cumml ngs: l t is our understanding that is likely a correct assumption. We will provide a report to the Member so that he can go through it. Mr. Edwards: I would appreciate that, Madam Chairpe rson. When the testing is done, Is the testing done on the pr otoc ol tha t the Minis ter has Indi cated earlier-the potable water protocol?

What is the procedure for testing and specifically, I guess , with respect to this line of questioning, Is the level of fluoride tested for? I would be interested to know as well what the testing procedure is for water. Mr. Cumml ngs : I do not think by mem ory we can recall all of the parameters that are included in the testing, but that will be included in the report-what the water is tested for. Obviously, the sampling itself was taken In a prescribed manner so that we get the most accurate cross

section of the river. I can assure him that that is being done In a correct manner, that water quality standards would recognize. The exact tests, I suppose we could try to lis t them, but they are Included in the report on the water quality. Mr. Edwards: In the last year then, what have the downstream te sts told the Min iste r and the department about the quality of water coming out of the Winnipeg area? Mr. Cumml ngs: One of the major concerns that we have always had is the high bacterial count of water exiting the city's jurisdiction.

That Is why we are now presently working with the city to get additional treatment at the treatment plants. Mr. Edwards: Is water qualit y also tested in the Assiniboine and in the Seine River, for instance, in the City of Winnipeg ? Can the Ministe r indicate with what regularity those tests are taken? Mr. Cumml ngs : The Assiniboine is tested in three or four sites quarterly. The Seine is not tested reg ularly, as the Memb er is wel l aware. lt is not flowing a good percentage of the time in the last couple of years . You are testing still water when you are te sting.

I had occasion to ask what the water quali ty was afte r the Save Our Sei ne me et ings, and I cannot recall the frequency or the location of the tests. lt seems to me the one test area was close to where it discharges into the bigger river and that water was within acceptable standards. Certainly it was not a good test of what is flowing through, because in fact there was almo st nothing flowing through. Mr. Edwards: Madam Chairper son, I am interested to know about the proposed medical waste sites.

I will seek direction of the Minister as to whether or not this would properly come up under the Manitoba Hazardous Waste Corporation, or whether he would entertai n ques tions now about the-1 see him shaking his head so I assume he will-siting of a medical waste facility in the Province of Manitoba. Can he give us an update as to the process, which I gather Is under way, to determ ine a site, an appropriate site, and when a decision is expected by his departm ent? Mr.

Cummlngs: The Manitoba Health Services Commission and the Minister of Health are looking at the larger picture as to what is generated, the volumes and so on. That report will be available before very long . lt is my understanding that it should soon be available so that we can then start to plot a strategy for the province. There Is an application, recently approved, for a me dical waste transfer facility, not a treatment facility. BFI has a lice nse to operate a transfer facility.

There is another application in from a smaller company that also is applying to handle med ical waste, primarily dent al waste , I under stand, on an entrepre neur basi!il to begin to approach practitioners across the province to get de ntal waste out of the waste stream . That one is not comple ted yet. Mr. Edwards: Does the Minister feel confident that all biomedic al waste now, in the Province of Manitoba, is being adequately disposed of? Mr.

Cumml ngs: Adequate is-there is a judgmen t call and obviously if we thought everything was being done that could be done today we would not have commissioned the work to be done by the Health Ser vices Com mission-Dep artment of Health. We think there is room for improvemen t, and

Decernber10 , 19 90 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA 2772 we want to be able to deal with that in a larger scale across the province and as efficiently as possible. We know that incineration is possible. We know there are advocates out there today who say that small scale equipment in individual hospitals can be made to work at standards that are acceptable, using other te chnologies.

We want to get a firm picture of everything that is out there and how it is best brought into a location where it can be disposed of, knowing full wel l that there are some cost implications to doing this. l t will bear on Health Services Commission in te rms of overhead with whatever method of disposal is finally concluded. Mr. Edwards: Is there , in fact, still biome dical waste ending up in landfill sites in this province, to the Ministe r's knowledge ? Mr. Cummlngs: Yes, I think that is a fair conclusion. * (21 00) Mr.

Edwards: To what extent, Madam Chairper son, and is the level that Is occurring monitored by the departm ent? Mr. Cumml ngs : The department informs me that they did an across-province survey last summer to get a quick reading on this issue and the conclusion was, as I indicated a momen t ago, that some of it is going into landfi lls.

We also concluded from the information we received that our best conclusion would be that what would be considered more dangerous or infectious material is not being left to casual, if you will , or to that method of disposal , that it is being kept separate and disposed of prope rl y by other means, but ther e are materials going to landfills. Mr. Edwards: Can the Minister indicate what the time li ne is? I believe he said he felt a report would be ready in the short te rm.

Can the Minister indicate what the time line is for the establ ishment of a medical waste treatment centre for Manitoba, such that al l of the biomedical waste which should be treated, other than going to a landfill, is in fact treated properly? Mr. Cummlngs: I in di cated that it is my understanding the report will be available shortly. I would think the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard) could more accurately report on the stage of it. Further to that, one need not draw a conclusion that we would necessarily build a system in the province.

We could well function with a transfer system and hire facilities that would be acceptable as well. Mr. Edwards: What happens with biomedical waste coming from the veterinarians' offices around this province? Is that treated as biomedical waste, as I would assume it would qualify. How is that waste disposed of? Is it monitored by the department as biomedical waste? Mr.

Cummlngs: I do not know what regulations are covered on our veterinarian clinics through the Depar tmen t of Agriculture, but by personal experience I can tell you that the agricultural clinics that I have had experience with would not have what the Member and I would normally think as biomed ical waste of a very large degr ee. Some of the small animal clinics in the city might be more inclined to have that type of material , rather than the large animal clinics that we have in the rural areas.

They would more lik ely have dead animals to dispose of which would be disposed of either through dead animal facilities or landfills which have burial grounds on them. A number of lanclfills have what are referred to as burial grounds for liv estock purposes where they are covered daily, and that is governed under our regulation. As far as operating on infectious material, it would probably be the dead animal itself that would be infectious, and it would be disposed of by burial. Mr. Edwards: Does that in fact happen at landfi ll sites in Winnipeg to service the various veterinary clinics around this city?

What happens to carcasses coming out of those clinics? Mr. Cummlngs: I am not aware of the city landf ill accepting that material. We do not directly re gulate those veterinary clinics, but it is my under standing that it migh t we ll be by incineratio n, small incinerators that some of them have available to them . Mr. Edwards: Just one final question on tl:lis. Can the Min ister indicate who does reg ula te the veterinary clinics and who would be responsible for overseeing the disposal of whatever, hazardous waste or the term, biomedical waste, which was coming out of those clinics? Mr.

Cumml ngs : I do not know whether it would be treated in terms of biomedical waste. I think what Veterinary Services, which is in the Department of Agriculture, are concerned about and would be regulating would be the transmission of disease from dead stock or parts thereof. I think they would be regulated and controlled under the Veterinary

2773 LEG ISL ATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA December 10 , 19 90 Services Branch. Certai nly we have not under taken to extend regu lation in that area. Mr. Daryl Reld (Transcona): Madam Chairman, I would like to have the opportunity to ask the Minister a few questions concerning an Ite m that has be en of concern to me for a couple of months now. I am sure he is we ll aware of the issue , and that is the Palliser Furniture plant in Transcona. I will not belabour the point too long , but I need some clarification on that.

I have attempted several times during Question Perio d to ask qu es tions on that subje ct and unfortu nately, through time constraints, I was prevented from asking the necessary questi ons. For that particular plant there have been news releases, there have been consultant's reports, there have been director's orders, all dealing with this same subject. There are still concerns out in the community as I have indicated to the Minister today. I know he has a copy of the petition that the residents had gathered together in the community amongst other Ministers in that Gover nment.

The ques tions I have are dealing with, to start with, the director's order. lt state s that the necessary ste ps to en su re compliance with all of the conditions of the env ironmen tal Act Licence No. 1242 on or before Jan uary 31 , 19 91 is the first condition that the Palliser Furniture plant has to meet.

With that particular clause , it does not state in there what steps the Minister would take should this particular industry or busines s not complete this particular clause, not comply with this clause. * (21 10 ) I would lik e to know what is the Min ister's response to that, and what steps his department is going to take if this plant does not mee t the necessary regulation or clause . Mr. Cummlngs: In the event that they would not comply or would not be in a position to comply, we would have a choice of fining them as a result of charges or we could ult imately shut them down. Mr.

Reld: I would lik e some indication, Madam Chairperson, what would be the Minister's-what data he would rely on to det er mine what course of action his department would take, whether or not they impose the fines or they impose the close-down order. Mr. Cumml ngs : I think that is hypotheti cal. Palliser has a problem and has moved, depending on what your opinion is of the speed in which they have responded-but they have given us full access to the consultant's report, which relates to questions I had earlier about the profes sionalism of work that is done outside of the dep artment.

I thi nk the de partment accepted the profess ionalism of this report, and we fully expect compliance. I am not here to say whet her it would be a $300 ticket or whether you would go on to court to seek a higher fine. That is entirely hypothetical until we reach a point when they are out of compliance. lt is certainly my expectation that they will be able to meet that and certainly intend to see that they do, frankly. lt does need to be completed. Mr.

Reld: That did not quite me et the needs of the question that I had put to the Minis ter, as we ll as, I am sure, it does not me et the needs of the concerned residents in the area. These people have waited approximately a year to have this situation resolved, and I am sure if the Minister was a resident in that area he would be seriously concerned himself. I am sure he is privy to the pictures that were attache d to the pet

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	35-1-42b
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	35th 1st hansardpdf 42b.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
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