Volume XLI Monday Province of Newfoundland FORTY ~FIRST GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND First Session VERBATIM REPORT {Hansard) Speaker: Honourable Thomas Lush Number 10 12 Ju ne 1989

The House met at 2:00p.m . MR. SPEAKE!~ (Lush): OrdE!r, please! We have some special guests and visitors in the Galleries today that I would like to introduce and welcome on behalf of han. members. First I would like t~o IJJelcome thE! Han . George A. Shaw, President of the LegislatiVE! Council of the State of Tasmania in Australia. Mr . Shaw is accompanied by his wife , Joy c e , and M r . and Mrs . Cliff Patten of St. John 1 s, NelJJfound1and. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR .

SPEAKER: AJ.so I wouJ.d likE! to welcomE! thirty military advisor·s and attach~s based in Ottawa and assigned to various embassies and high commissioners of foreign countries. I am sure all hon. membE!rS join me in welcoming these military people to the Galleries today. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR . SPEAKER: Also WE! haVE! Ed.ght students with t.h~dr instructors, Ad1:~le Shar·p and Max-.inE! Brown, from thE! Avalon Community College, St. John 1 s. SOME HON. MEMBERS : I-IE!ar, hear! MR.

SPEAKER : Also we would like to welcome fifty Grade VII students accompanied by their teachers, Marvin Ryder and Colette Olford, from the Catalina Elementary School of Catalina. L. 4-E:, 1 June 12, 1989 Vol XLI SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear. hear! Oral Questions MR. SPEAKER : The han. the Leader of the Opposition . SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. RIDEOUT: Mr.

SpE!aker, in viEHAJ of the fact that t.he gov~;:~rnrnE!nt has appan:~nl"ly made a decision to cancel the second fer-ry for l:he Bell Island service, clnd in viE!IJJ of" Ll'lE:! facl :. that the go v E! r nrne n {: has appa.r en t·.J. y decided a.s well to set up some kind of an outside commil:tee l:o study all of the aspects of FE!Y'Y'Y service to Fogo Island, IAJ"i .ll l::he Premier, on behalf of thE! government, tell the HousE!

IJJhet:hHr o r n o t , :i. n f a c t , t: h o s e d e c :i s :i o 11 ~; have been taken, and whether ur not. an Order-in-Council has been issUE!d appropr:iat.E!ly to r~:!l=-J.ect those dE!Cisions? MR. SPEAKER : The hon. the Pr-emier. PREMIER WELLS: Mr. SpE!akE!r, lAJith rE!SpE•ct l:o t.hE! first qU(:'st.ion, l:he goVE!rnnl!::!nt hds announCE!d its poJ.icy thr·ough 1:-.hE! Minister of Works, Services and Tr·ansportation (Mr. G:i .J.I:wrt.). He has told the House on d number oF occasions what the government proposes to do with respect to the BeJl Island Ferry.

We have appro v 1! d pro c C:! e d i n g 1~ri . 1: h L h E! construC'hon of one rE!rry dl.·. th:i.s p a r t :i c u 1 a r· t. i 1n E! . W h a t. 1.1.d ·1 1 Li(:! done in t.he future;! rt''ina:.i ns t.o bc::­ seen. Whatever Orders -in -Council were appropriate to effect Lhat decision were affected. No. 10 R fl ~i l.

The second question was with rE:~spE~ct to the Fogo Island fE!rry. Th(~re :is no spf:~ci.al commission or any such body that has been set up to deter·mine what should bE! done. The government through the department will do an assessment of what is right to providE! reliable year-round ferry service for Fogo Island. What has been provided in the past has not bN~n reliable. There is some considerable question as to whether the fE!rry is even landing in the right place, and whether another solution might be the best solution, That is what the department concerned is going to be looking at.

There:! is no special cornrn:i.ssion as such to examine it. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. RIDEOUT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I thank l:he han. the Premier· for his answers. I just want to be absolutely clear, so let rne ask the PrerniE!r this: Do I understand the Premier to be correctly saying to the HouSE! that thE! appropriatE! Orders-in-Council reflecting the decisions on the Bell Island ferry issue and the Fogo Island ferry issUE! haVE! :in fact been :issued as Orders-in-Council? MR. SPFAKER: ThE! hon. the PrE!rniE•r. PRUIJIER WELLS: What I said, Mr.

Speaker, is IAJhateVE!r 0r'dE!rs--in---Counci1 IA.lE!rE• or are necessary, were or will be issued; whatever is appropriate, whatever is required to be done to give effect lo the decision that I have j us'l:. indicated. NOIAJ if that requjres a specia1 1...41)2 JunE! 12, 1.989 Vol XLT Order-in-Council, or :if one is done, then :it is done, and if it: nel'::~ds some cAdjustrnc::!nt it will be adjusted, but that :is the posit.:ion that the government has taken with respect to the Marystown ferry. MR. SPEAKER: lhe hon. the LeadE!l~ of LhE! Oppos:i.U on. MR. RIDEOUT: Mr.

Speaker, let me clearly ask the Premier whether or not an Order-in-Council has been issued cancel.J.ing thE~ SE!Cond BE•11 Island fc~rry? Will thE! Pr·ern.i(!l~ table that Ordc::~r-:.in--Counci1? MR. SPEAKER: ThE! hon. thE! Premi(~r. PREMIEF? WEL.l..S: I lAJi 11 t a k E! a 1 o o k i.'.l t. i. l: • M r . SpE!aker. and find out whE!Uwr or not thE!re is an Order .. -in·--Council, and whether it is appropriate that. it be tabled. If there is an OrdE!r-·in--Counc:i.l, and j.f :it :is appropria le that it bE! tabled, I wil1 do so. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the mernbr:!r For· Har·bour Main. MR. DOYLE: fhank you, Mr.

Speaker. I have a question for the Minister of Employment and Labour RE<labons (Ms Cowi.'.ln) .rE!gar·d.ing th~:! fcH'Ination of thE! PrE!ITder 1 s Economic RE·cover·y Tearn. As LhE! rntn-.i.sl:(:!r is cHAJarE!, according to thE! Prern:i.E>I", th.:i.s i:E>am will concentratE' on the c r E! at ion of j o b s :in our P r' o v :i. n n• and wi.l1 havE' eFFE>cl:. on e1nploy1nPnt. opportunities in Ne~~ound1and and Labrador. Let 1nE! SpE!akE>r', No. 10 ask t.hE:' in forlfl:i.n~~ rninist:er, and laying Mr. out /\ lJ.I)?

thE! groundwork for· creaU .ng jobs in the Province, and in view of thE! nE!W consuJtatiVE1 approach that the Premier has announced. did thE! government consult with the labour movement, maybe th<:1 FedE!ration of Labour. whE!n forming thE! Economic Recovery Team? If her department dj d. or if the PrEnnier did. or if the minister did, why does the government not have a member of the labour movement on the Economic RecoVE!ry Team? How can a commission. Mr.

SpeakE:~r. in the government that ignores the labour movement by not having membE!rship on that Learn, expE!CL to gE!nE!ratE! \:he good ud.ll of the labour movement in the creation of those jobs? So why is there not a member from the labour moyement on the Economic Recovery Team? MR. SPEAKER: ThE~ hon. the PrerrdE!r . PREMIER WELLS: Mr. Speaker. I of that, not Labour. have the the knowledge Minister of SOME HON. MEMBFRS: Oh, oh! PREMIER WEI L.S: The hon. members opposi t.e are entitled to have their questions answered; thc~y are not entitlE!d to dj.ctate IAJho, on behaJ.f of government, is going to provide it.

SOME HON. MEMBERS : HE!ar. hear! PREMIER WELLS : The ansLAJer s tra.ightforuJard. you J.ook at the IAJa S madE! i. t lAid S at the timE! t.hat completE!. Th(H'e added to thE! Cornrniss :ion and is fa:i.rJ.y ;"lr. SpeakE!r. If announc E!ITJent l:.hat cl(~arly indicatE!d thE! lj st uJas not is one more to be Economic Recovery l:here arE• threE! LLP)3 June 12. 1989 Vol X I ... I rno r E! to be add E! d to the E con o rrd c Advisory Boar·d. c:~nd two of tho se~ three are actively invoJved in the labour movement. Thoy IAJi .ll b1::' announced in the next day or so. MR. SPEAKER : The hon. the member for Harbour Main.

MR. DOYLE: Mr. Speaker. I gues s 1.ue can take :i. t. for g ranted • t he n • t hat U1 ('! Premier is gooing to hdve a ITWillbHr from the labour mov ement on the Economtc Recovery Team . Is thi s an af ·terthought, Mr·. Speaker'? It seems to be an afterthought bE!Cause the labour· movelnE•nt. c e r t a i n l y uJa s no t. c o n s u l to d o n membership on the Economic Advoisory Team. How ca n the Premier sit by and have the labour movernE!nt not reprs1:?.ntc:~d on a tearn whose prime mandate js going to be t h e c r e a t ·i o n o f j o b s .L n o u r Province?

Now, the Premier is shak :ing his head but maybe hE! c<:>n be a l:ittJ.e b:it mor'e c:J.ea1~. because ncdther l:he Federat.ion of Labour nor any labour body :in th:is Province has been consulted for JTtemb E!rship on that team. Why has the Premier decided that the labour movement is not that important in tiT.is Pr·ovinCE! in t:he formation of jobs and cn•at:i .n~J employrnE!nt .: opportun ·it:i.es in NewfoundJ.and? Why has hE· not. put: a mr:!rnber on that . tea1n? Could he be a l:i.t.tle b:Lt mor·e spE~cif:Lc and t~dl tht::~ labour· rnoVE!In E!nt IJJhy? MR. SPEAKER : The han. the Pr('!J'n'.ier .

PREMIER WELLS: The <HISIAlE!r. aga:i n. is fa:i.rJ y simplE~. Mr. Sptc'aker. It .is not an a f L~ e r t: hough t: . The cH' r· d n g E'ITI e 1'1 l.. ~:: W('!r!':' made before t:he announcement: t.uas made in t:he flousE'. Last . Monday. 1 th:ink, Uw anrwtHIC!:~Inent No. 1.0 f~ !j,l:) 3

t..1Jas made. OnE! of thE'! :individuals did not get back to tnE! in U.tTIE!, I IAJas not able t.o reach thE:~ person in timE!. And thE~ ot.hE!r onE! got back to me and indicat.E!d, yes, the person involved wanted to serve but felt a rE!quirernent to consult with othE!r sectors of the labour movement first before the commitment was made, or the announcE:HnE!nt would br:~ made. With respect to the labour movement, that is the answer, so it was done. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. thE! rnc::~mbE•r for Harbour Main. MR. DOYLE: MaybE! I tAJiJJ. go back to thE• Minis l:er of Employment and Labour RE!] at.ions agaj n.

What. l..IJe have is a five-member commission. The labour rnoVE!ment dOE!S not: have any represE:'ntat.ion on that f:ive .. -mernber comm:ission. ThE! Minist.E!r of Employment and Labour Relations, did she or did she not make rE~presentat'.ion 1:o the Premier, to thE! gov ernrne nt, to havE! a member from the labour movernE•nt included on that five-member commission?

HotAJ can the minister, who represents thE! labour rnoVE!mE!nt :i.n t.h·i.s Province, sit around the Cabinet table, sjt idly by and watch the government create such an important corrnn:ission, that :Ls supposed to create jobs in our ProvinCE!, how can that commission fulf'ill its mandatE! without a member From the labour movement on there? Why '.is there not a membE~r frorn thE! :Labour movement on that cornrrrission? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Pr·errrier. PI~EMIER WELLS: 1_4..5 ·~ June 12, 1989 Vol XLI Mr.

Speaker, thet~E! ·is no tnl:!l·nber from any group, no tTJ(•rnbE!I" representing any particular group or individual on the CornmJssJon. The Adv:i.sory Board is a d'iff(•rE!nl~ th:ing. Steps wer'E! takE!n to mab:• sure that: thE:'r'e 1..11as a broad representation frorn all areas of the Pt"ovincE! and all :intr,!rE'!St. groups in the Province on the Advisory Board. The Commission is made up of people who wJ]J. be full-·-time E!TnployeE!S E!ngag1:HJ to do a specific task, not to be representatives of one group or another in the Province. SOME l-ION. MEMBERS: HE!ar·, hear! MR. SPEAKFR: ThE! hon. thE!

ITIE!l'Tiber rot· Tor·nc:Ja L Mountains. MR. WARREN: Thank you, very much, Mr. Speaker. My question tAJ:i.J.] bE! to LhE! M:inister of Environment and Lands (Mr·. Kel1and). Just J:istE•n:ing l::o l: hE:~ Pre mi E! r say ·in g that a 1.1 are as of thE! Pr·ovinc:e ar·E~ rE•pi"E•SE!I'l't.ecl 011 the Econorn'.i.c Cornrn·iss'.i.on, T tAJot .. dd J.ike to ask t:he M:inJsLE''Y' of EnvironrnPnt and l_ands, L~Jho is also the mi. n :is t E! r r ~:! s pons i b 1 e , I g u E! s s , for Labrador, has he consult.c:•d, or· has he advJsed the Premier that. therE! should bE! sotnebody Ft"orn Labrador on the EconomJc Comm:iss:ion?

SOME liON. MEMB E I~S: Oh, oh! PREMIER WELLS: Mr. ~3peab:•r, hon. member's should knol..IJ by noto~J t:hat t:hu Econont·ic RE!COVE:~t~y Comm:iss·.i.on anstAJers l~o l:.he P . t I t . I I . I . l"E!rrllE'r, ·:·la·-. J.S ".:lE! lAldY :1·· :.J'> s l:ructured, and t.he l)t"elniHr has responstb:il:ity for :i.l::, and Lhe Premier w:i11 ansWE!r for it in l::hE! No. 1.0 I~ Ll I"> If.

House. Now, hon. members rnay not J.:i.ke that, and I am sorry, but thE! truth is that is the way it is go~i ng to bE:'. Now, Mr. Speaker, the third individual is a young man from Labrador and, if I recal1 correctly, his name IJJas announced at the time on the Econorrd.c Advisory Board. The Commission is not intE:1nded to rE!present any areas or any interest groups in the Province, and if the hon. member listened to the last answer he would have heard that preciSE! statement being made.

Maybe he does not understand the differE!nCE! in approach between the two, and if hE' l.o.Jants fur·t:.her eJ.aboration I am prepared to give it to him. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the lflE!I'nber for Torngat Mountains. MR. WARREN : Mr. Speaker, my question, again, is to the Minis ·tE.~r of Environrnent and Lands. I would like to ask the minister did he advise the Premier on any peopJe from Labrador to be on the Economic Commi s s ~ion? MR. SPEAKER: The hon . the Premier. PREMIER WELLS: Mr.

Speaker, I do not know what the member did or did not do 1.uhen he was a member of Cabinet, but no minister is going to discuss publicly what advice he did or did not givE! the Cabinet . Now , if the member does not understand that, the IAJondc~r is t.hat he ever· serVE!d in a CabinE!t eVE!n for as shor·t a time as hE• did. That is a fundamental practice that we are going to Follo1.u and that he should have foJJ.olAJed. 1_4 1)

I) JunP l2, 1989 Uol XU SOME HON. MEMBERS : HE!ar, hear! PREMIER WELLS : The answE~r :is, Mr. Speaker, thai: the Economic Adivsory Board is intended to be the group that ensures that there is representation from all regions of the Province and that aJl interest groups in the Province have an opportunity to ensure that their views are put forward.

The Economic Recovery CommissJon its<.df is intended to bE! fu ll--tirne employed individua1s who wi]J do the best job that can be donP in thE! circumstancE!S, and t:hey LIJEH'P hirE!d for their capabi.l:il:.y .in t:hal: rE:1gard, not for thE! :i.ndiv:lcJtja] s nor areas which they represent. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Torngat Mountains. MR. WARRFN : Mr. SpeakE!r, my finaJ. question is to the Minister of Environrrwn'i: and Lands. Mr. ~)pE!akE!r, I ask the Minister of EnvironmE!Ill: and Lands does hE! considPr that therP shouJ.cl be somc~body from Labrador· on the Economic Recovery Team?

That is directly to the Minister. MR . SPEAKER : The hon. the Premier. PREMIER WELLS: ---·-------~-----··--The questions 1.o.r.ith r·e spC'!CL l:.o the Economic RE!COVE!ry Cornrnission or the Economic Advisory Board will continue to bE! answered by the Prom:ier in this HouSE! d.nd not by anybody else. The membE!rs rnay not like it but they have no alternative but to accept it. MR . SPEAKER : ThE! hon. thE· Leaclur· oF the Opposition . No. 10 1\4 1) '::.

MR. RIDEOUT: My question will the Premier in be directed to his right as Premier. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Ht:~ar, ht:~ar! MR. RIDEOUT: Flowing out of the answers that the Premier gaVE! on the prE!Vious question I can understand, dE!pending on legal. advice, whethE!r or not an Order-in-Council could be tabled or not, but would the PremiE!r' undE!rtake sorne time during thE• day to advise thE! HousE! whether the Order-in-Council exjsts and what the date of the 01nd E! r--i n--Cou n c i l :is? MR. SPEAKE!~: The han. the PrE!rnier. PREMIER WELLS: What Order-in-Council? MR.

RIDEOUf: The Order-in-Council that the Premier told the Opposition might exist regarding the ferry questions that I asi<E!d him earJ.iE!r in Question Period. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER WELLS: I will determine whether or not such an Order-in-Council exists and I w:l.J.J advise the House as to the date of· it. WhE!'ther or not I wiJJ table it, I wjJl decide later. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the member for Grand Bank. Ml\. MATTHEWS: Thank you very much, Mr'. SpeakE:~r, and I would ask Premier Noriega to extend the courtesy of allowing his minister to answer the question this time.

L4':i6 June 1.2, 1989 Uol XLI My question, Mr. Speaker, is to thE! Minister of Ernploym~:!nt. and Labour RE!lat.j ons and it: ~is abou L the private sector employment program. In light l:he fact Lhat there arr::~ some 1534 applications on filE! w:i.t.h hE!r depa1ntm~~nl::, and 3000 jobs WE!re created lds l.: year under the program, I would like to ask the Minister a question I asked her on WednE!Sday: W:i.LI. she table the evaluation report done on the program?

As IJJeJ 1, :Ln ].j ght of her comments publicly about the program being riddled wjt:h p a t r o n a g e I tJ.ri. 11 s h e :i n f o (' m l': 1·1 l':' !·louse of such patronage and subsequently table the evidence? SOME HON. MEMBfRS: Hear, ~war'! MR. SPEAI<ER: The Minister of Employment and Labour Relations. MS COWAN: The Privatr:! S(•ctoln l:mployrn~:!nL Program L~Jas looked at I considei"E•d in the prE!paration, as you t!Joul.d bE! awarE' of, for thE! btAdgE!·L.

It IAJas decided at that t:.il'nE! l':hat ·it was not ITIE!e·U.ng thE! objE•cl:::ives that we would like l:o have an employmE!nt pr'ogjrarn ITIE'•et., and thai.:, therefore, we would have to discontinue it and look to designing a program that IAJould ultimately bring people jnto Lhe work force on a pE!r'maneni: basis. Now as I sat h€~r'E!

CllJE!In th<'! 1dst several weeks Jjsl::ening t.o Lhe maidE! n s pE!e c hE! s of i ndi trLd ua1 s on both s:l.des of l:he House, one of the things that they have mentioned frequently js the fact that Newfoundlanders and La brad o l"j an s do no l:. tAla n t t.o J j u e on unemp1oymE•nt insur-ance. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hE!ar! No. 1.0 1\41)6

MS COWAN: And we, as thE! government, do not want. thmn to. That is t..uhy WE! are looking to de:'Velop a rww type of program that will have built within it a training component that will see people - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MS COWAN: I am a school tE!iHhE!r, and OnE! of the things you usually do when you start to get a bit of fuss frorn th(:! kids is just stop and wait - wait until it ends. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MS COWAN: That sort of COITIE!S naturally, Mr. Speaker, and it rnay be useful here in the House. SOME HON. MEMBERS : -·· . Oh, oh!

MS COWAN: WE! hope the nE!W pr·ograrns will bE! designed with training components that will see people enter the labour force on a permanent basis. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. MATTHEWS : Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Grand Bank . MR. MATTHEWS: Mr·. Speaker, is the minister atJJare that. pr·oj E!c ·l:s under· the last b..uo years, j s shE! ato~Jar'E! that projects from every cr·ook and nanny in this Provjnce were approved - LI.J.I) '7 .JUnE! 12, 1989 Vol XU SOME HON. MEMBERS: HE'ar, hear! MR. MATTHEWS : Crook and nanny. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Nanny? Nanny? MR.

MATTHEWS: Yes, there were approval for a few nannies as well, Mr. Speaker. They do run businesses jn this Province - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hE!ar! Ml~. MATTI-i EWS : clnd rE•cEd .ve fundj .ng. As 1..\JPll, Mr . SpeakE!r, ~.o~Jhen she talks aboul: patronagE!, cornpanj .E!S such as D:icks a n d D i c k s , .i. n t h i s P r o v .i n c e , lAJ h o rE!CE!ived fundj ng for· Uw las L Lt.\JO years under the program - MR . R . AYLWARD: They thought the world of Lhe program. MR.

MATTHEWS: iiiJeJ..J, Mr. ~)peaker, ask thE! minister a I 1..110 u J d 1 j k e to suppletnentary. :i.nfot~ITI th:i f:, WiJ.l the min:isl:er House 1..\Jho made recommendations For· approval to Cabinet on the Private Sector EmploymE!nt Pr·ogram? fh(!I~C:! is an evaJ.uat::1on don(;• on t.:he: • program. The minister proF esse s that she kno~.o~Js a] :1 about l:.he program. rhe tninister says l:.hi'l.l: t.hE:1 prograrn ~.o~Jas a bad F>r'O~Jr'alll.

Will l:he rninister stand in this House and tE:'!J.J. this House :i.s she aware who rnade thE! n~colfllri(Hldal:·.ion to Cabinet on approvaJ. for the Prtval:e Sector Ernp1oyrnenl: Progr·arn? MR . R. AYLWARD : No, she t.o~r.i.ll not . MR. WARREN: Ask your sidekick . No. 10 1\4')'7

MR. SPEAKER: The Minister of Labour Relations. Employment and MS COWAN: fhe appropriate minister brings these recommendations to Cabinet, if that is what you are asking. MR. R. AYLWARD: Who made the recommendation to the minister? MR. MATTHEWS: Who made the recommendation to Cabinet? Ml~. R. AYLWARD: Where did they come from? Oid they come from the politicians? MS COWAN: Yes, the particular program was looked at in light of budgE!t preparation. Who says what - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh. oh! MS COWAN: in a Cabinet meeting confidential matter. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear. hear! MR. MATTHEWS: Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: is a The hon. the member for Grand Bank. Ml~. MATTH FWS: The reason I asked the minister the question was because of her statements publicly in this Province, about the pi"ograms being riddled with patronage. My supplementary question to the minister was who made recommendations for two years to the Cabinet on approvals under the Private Sector Unemployment 1...4-58 June 12, 1989 VoJ. X l..I Program? For hE!r inforrna Lion. Ml".

Speaker, there was an IntE!rdepartrnE!ntal Cornm:i t b'!e rnade up of officials of CarE!er Development and Advanced Studies, Rural Development and Development that made recommendations to Cabinet. And in two years thE!re was not one of those recommendations rejected by CabinEd:, Mr·. SpE!akE!r', not onC'!. SOME HON. MEMBERS: I-IE!ar. hc:.~ar! MR. MATTHEWS: So thE! nt~xt, Mr. SpeakE!!", j~; a patronage question. Is the minister aware as well that the only l:.wo r e j e c t ions , aft c• r' Cab .i 1"1 C:!

L appr·oval, IJJere on conf1:i ct oF :intE:~rE!St, one to an eX<='CUt.::i.IJE! assistant to a 1rd n:i st.E•r. and U1e other to a f:irrn of which l:.he nmJJ Minister· of Soc:i.aJ. ~)E!r'vi.ces (Mr. Efford) was a director? Is she aware of that, Mr. Speaker? SOME HON. MEMBERS: HE!ar. hear! MR. WARREN: You are allowed to answer. SOME HON. MEMBERS: No answer? No answer? MR. R. AYLWARD: She is strapped onto t:he seat. What a m~~rnbE:~r! MR. SPEAKER: The han. the member for Grand Bank. MR. MATTHEWS: Is it any wonder that the m:inJster w:i shes she was s t .i, l"l back in 1::1·1 r:• teaching professJon!

I lo~Jould say if thE! PrE!rnier ·.is doing hi.s r·eport. card, as he d~Ld for· t:he last Y('dl" and a half :in the House, si·H:• lo~Ji.1.1 be back teaching very soon. No. 10 r~ 4-~) s

Mr. Speakc::~r, will the 1r1in-.isi:er inform thE! House and the privatE! sector of i:his Province what other programs are being considered? She said i:oday that there were programs being considered, new programs. W-.ill she infor·m the House IJJhat programs arE! b~dng considered, when we might expect those programs to be implemented to employ thousands of people in this Province, and, if such is the case that the new programs are brought in, wj .J.l the employees who have now received termination notices in the Employment Services Division, be required to run the nE•IJJ programs? MR.

SPEAKER : The hon. the Minister of Employmen t and Labour Relations. MS COWAN: There were several questions there, Mr. Speaker. I u.Jill begin with the last one first. Nine people in i:he department were given notices earlier last week saying that their temporary employment would be extended to the E!nd of June . It w,':ts originalJ.y to end at the end of May. During that time period a decision wilJ. be made as to whether or not they will stay on.

Now, let me assure the HouSE! that 1JJh1:H1 progr·ams are dE!V~~lopE!d i:o take the place of the Private SE!Ctor Programs they w·.Ul be well-thought-out, carefully-orchestrated programs, and that will not happen in one month. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! M~> COWAN: ThE!re way :is one to be:i ng now that~ is developed. L4S9 June 1.2, 1989 on It the has Vol XU not yEd~ eVE!n been namE!d. It has to do with dE!al:i.ng u.dth peop] E! on Social Services and has a training component. We haVE! just bf!gun t.he work on that particular program. It is being developed. MR. POWER : Mr. SpE!a k E!r. MR .

SPEAKER : The han. the member for Ferryland . SOME HON . MEMBERS: Hear, hE!ar·! MR . POWER: My fir·st question is for l::he Minister of Fisher:.i.t::~s (Mr. W. Car·t.E!r). I an1 surE! thE! Mj .n:i.s tE:!r of F:isheries, as most peoplo .in this Province, is nOIAJ aiAJarE• oF the tremendous damage that is being done to our ground-Fish stocks, part:i.cularly cod. Evt.::•n IAJ:i. l:h that set: of c:i.rcumst.anCE!S that have taken place in this Prov:incn l~hel"e are still a lot of individuals who apply for groundfish processing licenses.

I knOIAJ the governiTient: of which I was a member had a very difficult time trying to a11ocatE ! groundfish licenses . ThE•rE· WE!rE! a Jot of r·equests. Wt:~ :i.n:it:iated a freeze on groundfish processing licenses in this Province For the last couple of years . Could the Minister oF please tell the members House if there st:il] :.i.s on groundfish processing and if any nE!IJJ J:icen~;es iSSUE!d? MR. SPEAKER : Fj sh("r'=i.E!S of thts a Fr·eeze licens(;•s, haVE! beE!I1 The hon. the Minister of F=i.sheries . MR. W.

CARTER: M r . ~:;peak e r , the f r· <:! u z E' t h i:'l l~ lAid s pl<:lced on the groundfish J:.i .c: E·n~H!S so111e y~:!ars ago is sl:.i1 .1. in effect. We are look:i.ng a L :i.t. l::o No. 10 1\4 1.)9

see if, in fact, it is udsE~ to kE!ep it in E!ffect. CE~rta.inly there has bE!en no ded.sion made as to any intE•ntion on our part to abolish that policy. MR. POWER: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the member for Ferryland. MR. POWER: A supplernE~ntary to the Minisb:~r of Fisheries. I am sure the Minister of FisheriE~s, being vory fami1iar with the district of Ferryland, knows that there are nine groundfish processing licenses that run for the seventy-rni1e span of our coastline.

In that area the biggest problem for the groundfish processors and the plant workers involved is to find sufficient employment becauso there is so much compE!tition for the fish. Has the Minister of issued or is he considering a license Broyle Fisheries in the of CapE! Broyle? MR. SPEAKER: Fish~;:~riE~s acti.vity for Cape community The han. thE~ MinistE~r of Fisheries. MR. W. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, I have not issUE!d any J.icenSE!S to that group. They did come in to SE!e tne and they made.~ a strong caSE!, but uJe have not issued a permit or a license to that company. We have offered to take a look at it.

Certainly that is not to say that we are going to :issue a Lic~HlSE•, but thE•y d1:!SE!rve a hearing and we will give them that hearing and see what happens. MR. POWER: Mr. Speaker. L460 Jurw 12, 1989 Vo] XLI MR. SPEAKER: The han. the member for Ferryland. MR. POWFR: Mr. SpE!aker, I thank thE! min:J ster for his ansuJ~~r and I hatH~ a nr?lAl but related question for thE! PrE!rnier. It relates to goVE!r'nrnent patronage. Being a nPw government, certainly rnany pc~rsons in Newfoundland may be imprE!ssed IAri th how the Premier has t"un the first month or so of his administration. SOME HON. MFMBERS: I-IE!ar, hear!

MR. POWER: In rny case, and in many other mE!ITibE!rS 1 hE!rE~, WE! have found SOITIE:! of the rninis tE:!rS L~o be ver'y co-operative and very accessiblE!. But it is also very important that when a neuJ goveJ"nrnent takes ple1ce that the rules ar·e firtnly establishE•d. The Minister of Employment and Labour RE!lations has just r.HlSIAIE!r'ed about patronagE!, about d syst.otn that was not proper and shouJd not be implE!mentE!d if you think patronage is part of it.

There are two situations :in my district: One, whE!re Cap(~ Bnlyl.e FishE!ries is VE!ry st.ron~J]y t"UITtOt"E!cl to have been or w-.il:l be issur:!d a groundf:Lsh 1icE!I1SE! bdsed so1Edy on the fact that thc.~y havE• supporb~d the L~ibE•raJ. Par'ty. The r'uJnor' is there and it is a VE!ry strong rurnor. AnothE!r very str'ong, self-acknowledged Liberal, in the Supreme Court of Newfoundland on Thursday last, lost a liquor licence agency in l:.he D:i str'tc 1: of Ferryland.

He is now saying quite pub]jc]y, that se]f--acknoiAJ1ed~Jed L.iber'al, that. hE! is gcd.n(:j l:o qEd: his liquor agency storE! back by using the political process. No. 10 R'~·60

Will the Premier, please, tell the people of Newfoundland and the members of this HousE! that: thosE! ar'E! not ti'1E! kind oF rules under which either liquor agency store licences or fish processing licences are going to be issued in this Province? Ml~. SPEAKER: The han. the Premier· . PREMIER WELLS: Mr. Speaker, thE! anslAJer· to thE! fairly long-winded question about the fish processing licences, I know nothing of ·.it. The MinistE!r in the Department of Fisheries :i.s handling it:.

I can assure the HousE! and the hon. member that nobody will get licences or permits because they supported a particular political party, and it does not matter what the political stripe is. Neither will anybody be dE!prived bE !ca use thE!Y supported or did not support a political party. ThE!Y will or wil1 not get licences on merit. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! PREMIER WELLS : The first indication of thE! rumor· that I have had is from the member himself. That, so far as I know, is the start of the rumor, what: just occurred here this afternoon.

With respect to the other question about J.iquor li.cenu~s, I haVE! no control over what any individual may or rnay not say in any cour·t hearing, or in any other Forum. WhethE!r or not ther·E· i.s a 1i.quor licence issUE!d to anybody depE!nds upon the application of the law and t:hE• rulE!S and, I beliE!Ve, the liquor licencing Board. So far as I know, that is st :ill in effE!Ct . rhey will make decisions, hopefully on a pr·opur· basis.

If Lll 61 June 12, 1989 Vol XLI they do not make decisions on a proper basis, they IAli .J 1 bE! rE!rnovecl and others will be put in place who w:.i.Jl makE! dE!Cis :ions on a propE!r basis. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. SIMMS: Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: ·rhe hon . the Oppos:i.t.:i .on fiOLIS(! LE!ader. MR. !3IMMS: Mr. Speaker, I havu a our old friend the Finance (Dr.

Kitchen) . quesLjon for Minister of AftE!r what IAJE! satAJ last TuesdclY, i·f that is evidc:!nce of this nc: !W govenrnE!nt's F:i.scal managemE:!nl :: capabiLities, thc:!n I dlrl aft"ai .d l:.o say that peopJ.e of Newfoundland are t n for a rude al.l.la k E!n :i. ng ov C! r the next three or four years.

I lAJant to ask thE! rn:in:.Lst.er this: In view of the fact that under the nE!lAJ federal tax rE!form t:het~E' was actually going to bE! rnonE~Y cotning back into thE! pockEd:s of th e people of Newfoundland, tJJhy, then, did the Minister of Finance takE· all that money back by sucking every las l: ponny out of the pockets of the people ol NE!wfoundland? Why djd hE· not us<:' a small Fr·action of l:h,,! mass:i .'JE' tax grab introduced J.asl:. Tuesday to institub:! the schoo1 1n:L1k program rather -than in such a cavalier fashion, advising the people of Newfoundland to drink morE! beer? SOME HON.

MEMBERS : HPar·, hear! MR. SPEAKER : The hon. the MinistE!In of F'inance . No . 10 R /l.6 1.

DR. KITCHEN: ThE!re arE! so many clsidE!S tangled up, Mr. Speake!~, with that qUE!Stion that I am not too sure what thE! thrust. was. Part. of tht'::~ rE:~clson was because of thE! infamous way in which the previous government spent money on the Sprung enterprises. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hE!ar! MR. SIMMS: M1~. SpeakE:~r. Ml~. SPEAKER: The hon. thE:~ Opposition flouse LE!ader. MR. SIMMS: I d.l'n sorry, Mr. SpeakE!r, if the question LJ.Jas compl1~x. I apologiZE! for that. I tried the best I cou1d to 1E:~av E! out Uw t.uord s 1 enumerator 1, 1 denominator 1 and things of that nature. I know he finds it difficult.

Can the minister E!Xplain, Mr. ~3pE!aker, why, in such a short period of UrnE:~, just a feLAJ days now, he has rnanagE!d to create more uncertainty, rnore negative reaction than any government preceeding ever did in a full ter·rn? HE! has the s tudr:~nts upset, thE! mothE!rS upset., ddldrE!I1, labour, hE!al th car(?. people; he has got councils; indE!Od, Mr. Speaker. he has entire communities upset LJ.dth his savage budgEd:.

HoLAJ can the rntn-.ister, in v'iew of the fact that. statistics shoLJ.J that t.ue have the lowest per capita income in Canada, justify inf1ict:i.ng such pain on the people of this Pr·ovincE•, including an addiL'i.onal 2 percE!Ilt tax h·ike on E!Very taxpayer in Newfoundland and Labrador·? Could thE! tninist:er E!Xplain that? L462 Jum• 12, 1989 Vo1 Xl.I SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear. hear! MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Finance. 01~. KITCHEN: Mr.

Speaker, if thE! han. m<'nnbE!r would read thE:• rnail that is corning into my department, and into my office, and the phone calls that I have been getting about the budget, he will realize that v:i.rtuaJ.ly E•ver·yone is E!XtremuJ.y positive about the budget, which is the best budget - SOME HON. MEMBERS: HE!ar, hE!ar! DR. KITCHEN: The general agreement, Mr. S k . t~ t ll . . ll b ' ~pea eJ~, ls 11a .. -·-·ns :Ls :1e .es~.~ budget since Mr. Smallwood br·ought down the budget jn April of 1971. SOME HON. MEMBERS: HE!i-::u~. hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. thE! Opposition House Leadl.':~r. MR. SIMMS: Mr.

Speaker, we will see tomorrow. Will the minister be abl1?. l:o say the same thing tomorrow, Mr. Speaker? We will seE• whE:'n thE! peoplE• fr·om Grdncl Bank and st~. LaiAJr'E'!nCE! r:JEd:. het'E'. WhE!n the st.udE!nts h·om l::he Ull:i.VE!rSi.ty get h(=Jre IAJB IAJ·j].] SC:!P. If the minister is so positive about l:hE! r'E!act:ion to h:-i s budgEd .• t.uill hE! table thE:" lEd:t.ers he has received? We would like lo see t hE!m. Mr.

Speaker, I guess a lot of people 1.uho havE:• been Jj~~t:en:inr:J t.o thE! arr·ogant J"C:~sponses by this rninist~E·r, and who votPd l. ·j be raJ just a couplE! of' 1nonths ago, dr<" No. 10 F~LJ62

probably having SE!Cond thoughts today, I can te11 him that much. Would the rninistE!r, pEH'haps, do this for us?

Since he has already said that our people are about to receive anothE!r kick in the pants by his budget announcement of last TUE!sday, and s:Lnc~~ he has managed to get such negative reaction from the people around the Province, would he noiAJ stand :in this House, admit to his incompetence, admit that his government badly judged the situation, and will he now remove the suction cup from the pockets of the people of Newfoundland and dispense and back off on some of these deplorable taxes, particularly the 10 per cent tuition fpe increase that he charged the students of this Provinc e? SOME HON.

MEMBERS : Hear, hE!clr! i1'1R. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minist.E!r of FinanCE! . DR. KITCHEN: Mr. Speaker, the suction cups the backs of the people and on pockets of the p1:10ple of Province were removed by electorate on April 20. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! r'IR. TOBIN: Mr . SpeakE!r, my question - MR. SPEAKER: The Question Period has elapsed. MR. TOBIN: on thE! the thE! is to the Minister of Social Services. MR. SPEAKER: Questi.on Per·iod :is over, in oLhE!r tJJoi~ds. 1_463 June 12, 1989 Vo1 XU Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees MR. GILBERT : Mr. Speaker . MR.

SPEAKER : The han. the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation. MR. GILBERT : Mr. SpE!aker, under ~3E!ctton ~ 1 of the C.A. Pippy Park Cornrn::i.ssjon Act. I herE!by tablt> l:hE~ annual r·eporl: of thE! C. A. Pippy Park Con11n :ls sian for the per·iod Apr i.l 19 8 7 Lo Mar ·c h 1988. MR. EFFORD : Mr . Speaker . MR . SPEAKER : The hon. the Mtnister of Social Services. MR . EFFOIW : Mr·. Speaker, I annual report Assistance and hereby Lable the for Lhe Social Rehabilitation Services Programs of DepartmE!nL of Socia] SE!r·vices Lhc• for· and the ftsca1 year 198'7 ·-1988 1988-1989.

Answers to Questions for which Notice has been Given PREMIER WELLS : Mr . Speaker . MR. SPEAKER : The han . the Premter. PREMIER WELLS: Mr. Speaker·, on WE~dn,~sday' s Or·ck~r· Paper -· I IJ.Jas not in thE! Chamber· - a question IAJas asi<E!d by tht:! hon. th~~ mE!Inber For· Mount P<'!drl (Mr. N. Windsor). fhE! first question: Is thE! PrE!Ill:i.Pr' sti .ll l~ece:i v~i ng I:: hE'! No . 10 1~46 3

special salary he received while he t.uas LeadE!r' of the Opposition? The answe1n is no, therE!fOrE!, thE:~ Following part, if so, why? does not apply. The second qUE!Stion: If he is not receiving this salary, when did payment cease? Answer: April 1989. The third part of the question is: How much salary did the Premier receive, how was it paid, and by whorn IJ.Jas it paid?

The answer· is, it was paid at the rate of $50,000 per year, it was paid :in equal monthly installments frorn which income tax and the usual. dE!ductions I.UE!re deducted, and it. was pa:id by cheque, issued by thE:~ TrE:~asur·c:.~r of the Liberal Party. The fourth question is: If the salary was paid from a special fund for that purpoSE!, providC:1 a list of all contributors to the fund and the amounts contd.buted. The answer is :it was not paid from a special fund, so there is no list of con trtbutors.

The fifth quesLi.on is: What obJ.igations did the Premier make to these contributors in return for their generosity? The answer is the only obligation made was to the LibE!ral Party to ensure that the party would be properly organized, have propE!r policy, and would haVE! a good team of candidates to enable it to win the provincial electjon and thereby provide the people of this Province - SOME liON. MEMBFI~S: Hear, h€~ar! PREMIER WELLS: and thereby provide the people of this Province with competent government for 'A Real Change'. SOME HON. MEMBERS: HE!ar·, hear! PREMIER WELLS: Ll~6 /.1.

June 12, 1989 Vol XLI That obligation, I arn notE!, Mr. SpeakE!r, has and totally discharged. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hE!ar! MR. KELLAND: Min • SpE!aker. MR. SPEAKER: happy to bcc!el'l fuLly The han. the Minister of Environment and Lands. MR. KELLAND: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a r~~sponSE! l:o thE! question posed on the Order Paper of May 30, 1989 by the hon. \.:hcc• lflE!JllbE•r for Green Bay .

I a p o J o g :i. :z e l: o t IH! i'nE!mber for the roughly hAlO IAJec:!l<s eJ apsE:~ in U.me, but he lAriLI appreciate that we have been doing a fair bit of wor·k ::in UH'! past. couplE! of WE!eks, our swc:•<H'.i.ng in and so on, and it. is not altAJay"; e:::~asy to get the infor·1nal~.:i.on a~; qu:i.ckJ.y as member's may J::ike. Rut our· a:i.rn is to bE!, as has been clearly stated pubJicly, an open government and provide han. members of the HousE· of AssE•rnb]y with Uw :information thE!Y r'E!qu:.i.lnE' to do their jobs.

Having said that., I lAJ:i.Ll also compliment l:he hon. th!':! member· for GrE!E!n Bay, Ml". ~;pE'akE=!r. We !o~JE:•Jne co-panelists at an environment symposium j n Corner Br·ook OV€'!ln part of t:hc::~ weekend and, I must:. say, I was impressed with his ·input; :it: shot,vs he has concc,rn For the environment and a ~;oc:ia1 conscience which will be ref1E•ch:.d, I a1n sur·e, :in h::is IAJOI"k as a rnembE!r of the llousu oF Assernb1y. flav:ing said that, t.he answer to your qUE!St:ion which J"c::!latc•d to a tr·ip t.o AJ.aska tJJ:1th r·esp('!CI:: l::o an No. 10 1~464

oil spill is: Responses to tanker spills of th-.is nature arE! thE! responsibility of the federal govc::~rnrnent. WhilE! '.it l4Jou1d hatJE:~ bE!en of value to our· Pr·ovincE! to have sent personnel from my department to Valdez to view firsthand the countermeasures taken by Exxon, to do so IJJould have added to the burden on the Alaskan officials involved, considering that their government was facing a real problem with respect to accommodations and J.ogisb .c s. I am plE!ased to say, however, that thret:~ highly trained officials from the Canadian Coast Cuard stationE!d -Ln St.

John's, together with their equipment, WE!re rE!qUE!Sted by t:hE! Arner·ican GoVE!r'nment t.o lend assistanCE!. I understand that these Newfoundlanders were able to demonstrate various techniques to the Arned cans, such that cJ.E:~anup operations were dramatically jrnproved. It is theSE! people tJJho will bt:! the frontlinE! dc~fence for our· Province should IAJE! E!XperienCE! such an unfortunate accident and to that (:'nd it :is rny intE!nti .on to work with the federal government to ensure that existing federal and international regulations are updated as requirE!d to pt·~otect our coastal r-..~nvironment.

I will table copies, of course. MR. SPEAKER: BE!fOI"e calling Orders of the Day, on Friday I took a point of ordetn under advisement. In the meantime, I gave ~ a ru:I.'ing to the point of ordE·r, but s:i.nce it was sc:?.rni taken under adui.sernE!nt I should clarify ~hat and comment on .it today. The point of order was about a point: of order r·aised by thE! Opposition House LeadE!r in Question Period . The point of order raised by the Government 1...4-6 ~j JunE~ 12, 1.989 Vol XLI House LeadE!r was thai: a potnt of' order ought not l:.o bo ra:iSE!d dud.ng the Question PE!r:i .od.

As I :indoi.cat.E!d at thai: timE!, that. has not been the practice in this House, although it was practiced by thE! Opposit:i.on Par·ty J.ast yNH' as a philosophy of its OIAJI1, that t.h[!Y would not have po:i nts of order and points of pr·.itrilE!ge during QUE!Stion PE!r:i.od to take time away from the Question PE!r:Lod. It is the case :oi.n Ott.at.o~Ja and might be one advisable for han. member's here, but that :.i."~ not for· The Chair to say; ThE!

Ch.ot.iln is just to j.ntE!rpret Lhe ru]es, and p r' e sent r ul t:! s a 11 ow For· p o in I·; s oF o r· d P r a n d p o i n t s o f p I'' j u i ] P ~1 c during Question Period. Orders of the Day MR . MATTHEWS ; Mr . Speaker. MR . SPEAKER : The han. the member for Crand Bank . SOME HON. MEMBERS: HE!ar, hear! MR. MATTHEWS : Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker . It is a real pleasure for rne today to participate in th.i.s inFamous BudgEd: Debate, so ab1y l:n·ough L :Ln by i:he Minister· of Finance! just a ·fetJJ days ago.

We rE!a1] y expect.E:!d that the President of Treasury Board or the Premier wou]d have bE!E!n br·.inging in thE! Budgc~t, but: we are delighted on this side that the M·inist:el" of 1=-inc:lnce sal4J Fi .l:. i·:o r'E!ad the Budc;Jet ~>peech Lo l..hc· House. And I !:3UE!SS one oF l::hr:• f:irst: things l:hat: IAJC! IAJE:•r'P disappointed and upset with, Mr. ~>pE!akE!r, l4Jas thE:! $9~) m..i .:.tl-:i.on tax rape oF the people of Newfoundland No. 1.0 Rll 6 ':)

and Ldbr·ador. That is what th.is budget amounts to, a $95 rniJli.on tax r·apE•. And wh<lt l:he new governntE!n'l: w:i.th t.he n~'LIJ mandatE• did was thc~y sal: down and decided where they wanted to take this Province in Uw next fiscal year·, they laid down their plans and priori ties, and they catnE! up, Mr. Speaker, needing $90 rniJ.J.:Lon. And after they said, 1Well, we need $90 million, 11 they said, 1WelJ., we just cannot. balance it off at $90 rniJ.lion, J.et us stick another $5 million tax on to the people of Newfound] and and Labt~ador. L(d: us take another $5 million out of thEdr pockets, 1 Mr.

Speaker, 1and 1t=d: us bring in a Budg(~t docurnE!nt that shows a $5 m:i.l.J:ion surplus. 1 fhat is exactly what this government did. So if that is ingE!nu:i ty, planrdn(.:3, or any other adjectiVE! or definH.ion you m:ight call .it, Mr. SpeakE!r, I think ·.i.t lacks quite a bit. The other surprising and frighb:~ning thing, Mr·. SpE.~aket~, is uJhE!n thE! MinistE!r of Finance roSE! :in his placE! today in anst;.ler· to a question and said, 1It is the best budgE!t since Smallwood 1 s 1 of some YE!ar. I do not rernembE!r what hE! said. Now, what is r1?.ally frightening about that is he rea1ly be1ieves it, Mr.

Speaker. l-Ie bel'ieves that it is the bE!St budgE!t for this Pr·ovinCE!. i\Jow, I would say, Mr. Speaker, with a $95 rnil1.ion {:ax ratE! this YE!ar, we are going to SE!e el.!en bigg~~r· and better budgE.~ts :in \:hE! next threE! or four years frorn this goverr11nent, because thE!re :is no tAJay, Mr. SpeakE!r, l:hat tAle an~ going t:o end th.i.s fiscal year .i.n this Province shouJ:i.ng a $5) m:i11:ion surplus.

I think hon. mE:!rrtbE'rS over there are not Farni1·.iar tAJ:i 1: h the fiscal arrang E!tTte nt s and t.he financia1 l_ll·6 6 JunE! 12, 1989 Vo1 XLI pressures :in l:h:is ProvinCE! and the performance of the economy, part:lcu1at~ly the nE·L~ler membet~s. WE!J.l, i.f they n~f1ect on t.h::is budget and on what has happened OVE!r thE! Jast. nwnbE~I~ of yeat~s and what :is happE!ning to sotnE! of our major· industries in th:i s Pr·ovince, realistically, Mr. Speaker, I think at. thE! end of March, 1990, I will not be surprised to see an actual deficit in th::is Province of between $20 million and $30 milljon.

I think there is one t h 'i n g t hi s g o v e r n me n l: h a s no l:_ been: It has nol:. been t"E•a]o:isL:ic, and it has not been honest. I see thE! PrE!S:idE!nl:: of Tr·r·asur'y Boar·d (Mr. Baker) laughing, Mr. ~)peaker. NotA.!, hE! can bE:! laugrrinr:J for one or t:wo reasons, but I suspE!Ct he :is laugh:i.ng because my $20 to $30 million projected figure is probably only a third of what h1?. uri ll want nexl: yu,u·, only a third of uJhat. the dC'f::i.c:i.t t.~riLI. be :in thE• rlE!x1: fiscal YE!ar', not. in thE:' curr·(~!nt fiscal yeat~. And if' that is what he is laughing about, Mr.

Speaker, it js much too ser·ious to laugh about. NotAl, U-" he thinks h:Ls surpJus :i.s go.:i.n~1 to be rnuch bigger than ~f,1) tni11ion, and t. hat i s what hE! :is 1 aug 1-d n <::-1 about, thE!n I dill qui.l:e happy r:hal: he is 1aughing, bE!cause if they can cotnE! in with d ~~5 tnil1.ion sur·plus at thP end of l.he f:i_~;ca] year, it will be absolutely rE!rrtar·kab1e.

But :i.f Hwy cotnP :'.i.n in their quarterly reports over the next tt;.lE!J.VE! months and shotAI us that we are heading into a worsening economy, the surp]us will not be there and we are heading :i.nto a • very sE't":·.i ous deficit, then I think, Mt~. Speaker, they haVE:! r'eally twislncl the people of th.i.s Province. C' ' o:1nce l:he Budget of Ja~;t: Tuesday l:here is on'ly OnE! l:h.i.n~J inct"c•as:i.ng besides taxes, 1 1-llOU].cJ ~~ ay' ::in No. 1.0 1\ /~6 6

.. this Province, and that is the sale of Gravol. Probably that is the only thing that has increased, Mr. SpE!aker. The stomachs of Newfoundlanders and Labradorians have been so upset since last Tuesday n:ight that pharmacis l::s in my area tell me the sale of Grauel has rE!aJ.ly increaSE!d. Men, women and childrE!n are really upsf~t. stornach sick. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. MATTHEWS: They are actually stomach sick, Mr. SpeabH· I when they th-.ink about having to cough up $300 fo1n eVE!ry man, woman and chi .ld in thi.s Province in this fiscal year in additional taxes.

AnothE!r thing I one of my colleagues told the Minister of Finance that he should have some Valium to settle him dotJJn. WE!ll, I can assure him that th~:.re uri.ll not be much Valium sold in Newfoundland and Labrador over the m~xt year becauSE! no one wiLl. be able to afford to buy both Valium and Gravol. They ar·e so stomach sick today thE!Y must buy Grauel, Mr. Speaker. And maybe that tJJill create thE! sur·plus to grouJ a bit morE!, because by the time they get another nine or ten months of this government, I am surE! they tJJi11 want even more Gravel, and probably even something stronger to settle them down.

Mr . Speaker, I want for a few moments to zero in on thE! drastic tax increases by this government - MR. SIMMS : Tell us about the crooked nannies. MR. MATTHEWS: YE!S, E•ven thE! crooked nanniC:!S are on Gr<:~vol. L4-6 7 JUrl!:! 12, 1989 Vol XU ~around the ProvinCE!, 2 p<;!r cent personal .incomE! tax, which is going to hurt E!V~~ry Net.~.rfouncllandE:!I" and .Labradorian and, of courSE!, ·is going to decrease their spending pOWE!r.

Th-.is governrn(~nt t.alkE·d for y~:.~ar·s -­ I sat on the other s:i.de of thj s House and listE!I'Wd to Lhe now President of Treasury Board talk about what they saw for the P r o v i n c e , 1.11 h e r E! IJJ E~ s h o u 1 d g o . A n d whal: they haVE! donE! .in 1:he L.'lsi: week, Mr. Speaker, in this Province, .is th1:•y haVE! gorl!:! just the reverse of what they were proposing to do for the last three or· four years. And, of cotH'SE:!, I guess the King of Reversals and the:~ K:i.ng of WaJ.king ContTacUcl::i .ons i s s -.i t t i n g :L n l: h E! P r E! rn :i E! r· ' s c h a i 1~ today, Mr·. SpE!aker'.

The WaJ.k:in~J Contradiction of Newfoundland and L.abrc-.1dor, t:hat :is 1.11hat hu udlJ be rE!rnernbered for. ~3omc~onE! said .i.l: 1~1as a real change, and solfleone said, yes, it will be a short change. I can tell you one thing, as o-f last Tuesday tht:! pE!Ople oF Newfoundland and Labrador were certainly shortchanged by this budget, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS: HE!dr, ht:!ar! MR. MATHi EWS: M r' . ~) p e a k e r' , 'l: h :i. s P r' e ITI j_ e r· IAJ (! n L ll p to the un:iVE!rsity and hE• debat( ~d post-secondary education :in N1~1JJfoundland and Labrador·.

TherE! were a Jot of national issues that tied into the debate . And what he promised the students up at the university, prom:isod i:hE· post-secondary education students i. n t h .i s P r· o v i n c e , [ d m r r:! a l 'l y surprised at the Minister of E d u c a t i o n -·- I c iHl u n d E! 1~ s t a n d i. l: l: o some degree, not fuJly, but to so 1ne d t:! g r· E! e -- offer· in q h i 1n s !'!l f l:. o run for· that par·ty, t.o a de~Jr'ec•. No. 10 r~46 7

MR. BAKER: He has been in education for years. MR. MATHIEWS: We know his background and his h"istory, his po1-.itics as WE!ll as his educat:l.oncl1 background. We undc:~rstand that. But to see the reversal and the contradict-ion that oozed out of the Premier and this government, of which the Minister of Education is now a minis l:er of CabinE! t and must take his r'espons-.ib:ilj.ty, to see what thE!Y haVE! uonc~ with e ducat "ion , par' tic u J. a r· y w:i t h l he 10 per cent tuition hike on post--secondary institutions in this ProvinCE!, I do not know how he can rE!ally stay over !:".herE!.

I have SE!en him talking to the Minister of FinancE! a J.ot in the last WE!ek, particula1nly since 1ast TUE!sday, and I know both of them must be having second thoughts on whether they are going to stay where they are. Of course, if thE!Y come over to this sidE!, you can only get so close to the wa1l, gentJ.ernen, and you arE• as close to the wall over there as you are going to get. We could only put. you back here on our back benches, so I gUE!SS maybe they are staying thE!re for the remunE•rat"ion, I do not know. Maybe if they come over we might put them out in the co1nridor.

I am not surE!, but I would not like to do that with them because I respect. both gE•ntlE!lTIE!n for this history and for' their educational pursuits and what they have done in the ProvincE• that lo~.Jay. Of course:~, Lo.Je have to hatH~ a littlf~ longel" period of time yet before we judge them on what their political achieVE!lllE!nts lAJ:i.LJ be. Bul as of the last week, and what we have seen brought in, Ml". Speaker, FoJ" education, announced by the Minister of Finance, I think lo~.JE> L468 June 1.2, 1989 Vol XLI are lnE!alJ.y in feu' a b::i.g disappointment in those two individuals in the Province.

I .wou1d say that by Christmas, or E!clrJ.y in the NN\J Year', t:hesE:! gentlemen will be considering bolting from the caucus over there, because they tAJi11 knotJ.J then, t.hE!Y wilJ. get adequate and accur-ate fE!edback fr·om thE!.ir constituents as to just how bad this budget is going to be for NetJ.rfoundJ and and Labr-ador. Mr'.

Spr:!aker, whE!n you talk about a 1.0 per CE!nt tut:it:ion incr-ease on students in Ne~foundland and Labrador, who cannot afford, rE!ally, {:o go to u ni v E•J"S i ly notJJ, cannot afford to go lo the co1nrnunity co11egE!S or' the institutes notJ.J, tAJha t. this :i. s g o::i ng i:o mean, Mr. 3pr:!aker, i.s Uwl: h u n d l" e d s of young N e wf cw n d 1 and E! r s and Labradorians who want to become better educated, will nol now be ablE! to aFfoind to do so.

And by not becoming better euucated their chances for employment, even tJ.rith those gr'eat, brillant, genius-lype programs that the Mi.nj stE•r' for ElflpJ.oylnent. dnd Labour' Relations w:i.O! l soon thrust upon the Province, they will not be able - [CHAIR COLLAPSES] MR. MATTHEWS: I thought the mjJ.itary had left. SOME HON. MEMBERS: I-IE!ar, hear! MR. MATTHEWS: Could the M:i.nister of F:i.nance btly a l1E!W cha.ir for' !:.he 1r1ernbuJ", p 1 E! a s e , o u t: of t h e $ 9 ~) rn ::i 11 :i o n ? Mr. Speakur, Newfoundlanders as Cl rl=!sull. of No. 10 thE•se yot,lng and Labradorians, th:is Buci~Jel., l;.J:i]l 1\46 8

not be abJ.E! to bE!COITIE! bE!tter' educated and, consequently, they wil] not. be we:~J.J equippE!d to F:ind E!lnploymE!n t wi th-.in ou1~ bE<loved Province of Newfound]and and Labrador. That -.is a fact, and those people on the other side have spoken thai: way for the last two or three years. The Premier went to the university and told them he was going to make education in this Province more available to everyone. It was going to be Je:'ss E!Xpensive and he was go-.ing to put three or Four uniVE'Y'sities aJJ. over' thf~ Province, one in Central Newfoundland.

OnE! in La brcld or'. one on the Burin Peninsula, in addition to Mernol~iaJ. Un:i.VE!rsi ty of NE!Wfoundland. He was going to do all that:, Mr . SpeakE!r, but anyone u.rith cornrnon sense, lAJho under'stands thE! economics of this f>lnov:inCE! and the financial position of this Province, and has foJ.J.ouJE!d either bit closely the post-secondary education happenings in this Province, and the Minister of Education and the Minister of Finance must agree, know · that thE! unj versity that now E!Xists is underfunded and overcrowded.

We cannot reaJ.ly do what we now should be doing because of the financia] position of this ProvincE! and thE! pressur'e on l:hE! dollar' in -Hd.s Plnov:incc, not. on]y for post-secondary education but for health care, l.o.Jater and SE!L<.H:'r irnprovernents, transportation and so on. Today I cal]ed the Premier a Wc3.lking Contradiction, and I sincerely mean that :.. flotAJ could he go about this PlnovincE' saying that he was going to estabJ.ish three or four additional un-iversities in the Pr'ovince? We do not. have the Fiscal capacity to do it. Ml~. TOBIN : Why d~i .d hE! do ~i. t.?

L469 JunE! 12, 1.989 Vol XU MR. MATTHEWS: Why did 1'1(~ do it? Well, [do not know why he did it, but I guess ::i.t is becausE! he is a larger Walk ·ing Contradiction than we l:hought. ThE! peoplE! of Labrador WE!S l: .. dS tJJE! Saw in thE! 1 aS t. lAI E! E! k 0 I~ S 0 , had t: 0 carne in and fight and batt .lE! the Premier to get fir'st year university courses reinstated in Labrador West. Now, I suppose they are going to reinstate it. I hear between the jigs and the reels that the school boards ca11E'd them out and they say t:hey are going to .introdUCl"! it oi.n January.

I must say Mr'. ~)peah·l~, that is much 1nort=! posit~i .(H! than not st.arting it ~ clt all, and I have t o g i v e t h e m :i n i s t e r' c r f'! (J"L I~ f o r' that. he took back u.Ja t e r'. b u t··. j 1:. is not as positive, Mr. :3ph'lker, as starting it in September of 1989, which l~he now Pl"ernier' of this PlnOlJinCE' stood :in a haLl. :.i.n Labr'ador West, For all the pE!Ople in NeuJfound1and and Labr'ador bt ~t part:icular1y Fo1~ thE! pE!Ople of Labrador West to hear, and said that he would have it done by SE!ptember of 1989. fl(;! d:id not say January of 1990.

And the t:h:ing, I guess, that this Premier has learned in t~he last r--nt.JJ tAJ( •C! ks 'is that you do not go ar'ound thjs P r o v i n c E! m a k i n g s t a t: e Hl e n 1:. s t 1·1 (~ ·t: you cannot back up, that you have not checked out l:o sue iF the planning has beE!n donE'!, and j_f' noL do it; or if thE! money is there l":.o do it. You just do not:. go about making those sL>.ternc!nts. nnd t~hc· hon. gent~Jernan over ther'e can cuckoo and he can lay an egg if he wants to . For the Minister oF Finance 1 s sake and Board 1 s sake I hope it rr 'PCISUI~y ·i~: a goJ.den E•gg. becausE!

I l~e l 1 Minister of Finance :is nE'ed all Lhlo' help he can you thi s goin~1 to '.:3 (! I~ tAl i 1: h this performance i.n LhE' Hou~;;e l:.hc~ last lAJC~E!I<. I-ll?. is go i.nq :i.n I~ o 1ay need a Jot more of you Lo No. 10 I~ 1\.i'i 9

golden eggs, I would think . MR. SIMMS: They have an excellent member for Labrador West (Mr. A. Snow). MR. MATTHEWS : Exactly, thE! member for Labr·ador West has done a rE!markable job in getting the Minister to reverse the decision against the Premier - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. MATTHEWS : -- and for· showing the Prernj er For lAJha t hE! really is. Now. the Premjer knew that when he went out and promised three or four un~iVE!rs:itiE!S in this Provinu~. and othr::~r things i:hat he promised, that he just cou J.d not go clbout doing.

Now, maybe he did, maybe he thought he was so almighty that he could wave a wand and the finand .a] picture of thE! Province would change because it was now King CJ.yde K. Wel1s. Now, I am not going to get into what thE! K might stand for here today, I am going to get into it tomorrow. MR. SIMMS: King. MR. MATTHEWS: Not King. It is not 1<-ing, that is too complimentary. We know what i.t stands for, but lAJE! tAJ:i.ll gcd: into that. t.ornorl~mu or SOITIE! other time when the Premier is in his SE!at, bE!Cause hE! :Ls not here to defE~nd himself, so I do not want to get into that. MR.

SIMMS: You d('E! going to torno r r'OlAJ? MR. MATTfi EW~3 : I a111 not sur·e yet. lAJi1l b!O! speak·ing for l.4.70 June• 12, 1989 speak again I pr·obab1y the WE!!O!k if Vol X l.I my han. colleague does not s-1-:.op interrupLi.ng me. IF hE• tAJanl:s to give ITlE! somE! fue] for rny speech I would appreciatE! his notes conri.ng up. The Mj.nisb:'r of Finance has sorne th-ings hE! can SE!nd over, some questions he has anstAJers to. WE! really delight on this s·.idE! whon the Minister of Finance rises.

One thing about this M·:.LnistE!r' of FinancE! hE! li.kE!S :i ncr·E:~aSE!S. and I gUE!SS that is synonymous tAJ:il:h rising.

And the biggE!St risE!, of course, that t.\Je havE• seen in the last 20 years has been the incr'E!aSE• in taxes on the backs or:· NE!Wfound1and and Labrador·ians, t.hn rape- -.it is nothing sho1nt of a rape -- of NE:'IAJfound] ander~; and Labradoi~tans in tlris ProvinCE!, l.hc:• taxpayer's, a 2 per cent -.:incTea~:d '! in pE!rsonal income tax, i::tnd lO per · cent more tui.t~i.on Fot~ sl:.udE·nLs . 1 do not know how the hon. gontleman can stand :in th:is House· of Assembly, and I do not knntAJ hot;.

J the Mini.ster of Eclucat~ion cotJld sit next to him on budget .day, why he did not go out back or t:lw curtain or somewhere, or· ar·1hanqo a rnE•eting IAJj th Dr. flarri s, IAJho IAklS sitting in the gallE!ry that :. di"iy, or go somewhere. But to gE:!t: up :in this H 0 use ' wi t h l: hE! p r· e s .i. d (:! n l: 0 r the Student Union d.t:Ung :i.n the gallery c~nd say, 'I a1n (jo.ing l:o smack it to you again today. You ar·o go:ing to pay rne another 1.0 pc,!r· cent.

You cannot afford to go now, but. you have l:o goitJCO! me another· 10 pet' cE:~nt .. ' Now, l 0 per· cent rno r e t u it "ion fees , t: h ,-'! t ·i ~; bad enough, but he taxed everything elsE!; E:'veryl:hing E!lse that a lot of thousands of students do, he taxed, Mr. Speaker. They cannot arFor·d t.o go to un:i.versity now. Whc!n t.hc•y couJ.d afford to have a beer· at- i..he Br·E:~IO!ZE!lAJay, or l:o have a dr·:Lnk, or· if -·- SOME liON. MEMB E I~S : No . 10 RLI70

Oh, oh! MR. SIMMS: ThE!Y dr·ink bc:H:~r, you knot.>.J. MR. MATTHEWS: There i.s no confli.ct of Sit down and bE! quiE!t. have hi.s turn to speak. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! interest! He will I hc1 ·te to intt:'rrupt thE! han. gentleman in high flight, but I was looking for an appropriate moment t.o do this. The hon. g{:!ntlE!I'nan mentionE•d l·:hat he might be speaking t.omor-r-ow. I IAJas looking foi" an appropriatE! moment to inform han. members that the TnE!rnber now spE!aking, you might not likE:' it, has unlimited timE!. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. MATTHEWS: Unlirni ted U.rne!

I am not surE! if I apprc~ciate thE! SpeakE!!" i.nforrning rne of that or not. I have beon known for a lot of things, but one thing I have nE!Ver been known for is bE!'.ing long·-winded. This might just have to be the tirne, and I suppoSE! if WE! conclude by Labour Day - how rnany hours in the budget? MR. SIMM~;: Seventy-five hours. MR. RIDEOUT: This does not count. MR. MATTHEWS: Oh, this does not count. Oh, well, I will go on forever. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! · MR. MATTI .. ! EW~) : There is no limit. Okay, that :is L tJ.7 l June 12, 1989 Vol XLI fi nc~. Gr·ea t! So, Ml".

SpE!akN', getting back to what the Mird.st.E!l" of FinanCE! has done, he has not only prevented thousands of Newfoundlanders and Labradorians from going to post--secondary institutions, bul: if they can manage to scrape in there they will have to go to their residences, to their apartments and lock thEnnsE<lvos in weeks upon weeks at a time without any Form of relaxat:ion or· l~c:•l-:LE:d:.­ from study, becausE! Lhey IAri 11 not be ablE! to afford l:o do anyl:hi.ng else, Mr. Speaker. They w:ill noL be able to afford to relax with their friends or go downtown or go out and get a pizza or do anything.

The o t h {:! r thing , o F course , r.lf r· . SpE:!aker, :i.s, based upon the budget, thosQ very same students ar·e going to have spE!ncl a Jot. of tirne in th::! dar·k, wh -i.ch this minister has done by eliminating the power subsidy on the Power Distribution Districts, which was paid by the ratepayers in this Province, students, workers, health care workers, e~Jen teachers, all r·atepayers, even t~he Minister of Social Services, who now IAJants to gE! 1: another $8 milLion back, by the way, fr·om recep:ients. He wants to go out noiJJ ·and rob a11 of l:he IAridol~Js and dd 1dr·en.

If they got a pdi r· of pants now I IAJould say hr:• IAJOuld take it . back c:,J,nd auctoion it . off and try to get back l:he ~~8 1nilJ:lon he is talking about gettjng back . SOMF HON. MEMBERS: Shame! Shame! MR . MATTHEW~): r h e i 11 c r E· a s E! .i 11 e l e c tr· i c .i l: y r a L e s tl l tl · M' · L c r-· h 1 a .. ·. 1l s J n :1. s · ·~ EH' o r J. n a n c e a ~ . .impos{'!d upon the pE!ople of t:h.i.~: Province means the sludents will not bE! able to havo l:heir 1ights No. 10 RI\ .7 1

on all night, Mr. Spea-k E!ln. ~)o I suppose, as I said on Budget Day, W!~ will s t::~ e a retu1nn to the ker'OSE!ne lamps, but then I suppose he has a tax on that as well. He has taxed fuel of lE!aded and unleaded. all sorts, He has donE! this Minister it all, Mr. ~3pE!aker, of Finance. And I rE!al1y do not. know, sit t:L ng an•und thE!

CabinE!t table, and t.1.d th the social conCE!rn and the social conscience that the Minister of Social Services oozed tJJhen he tJJas on this sidE!, thE:~ 1nan t.l.Jho tJJE!nt to t.he basE•rnents of Remand CentrE!S and Detention CE!ntrE•s, and snooped around, and went to hospitals clnd saw what was happening - MR. TOBIN: And made up stories. MR. MATTHEWS: No, I did not say that. No, I did not say it -·-you can say that.. Whether he mad~ up stories or not, I do not know. I IJJilJ not. go that far, Mr. Speaker. Now, Mr.

Speaker, there WE!re tirnE!S I thought the han. mernbE:~r may have been making up stories, but I reall.y could not say it. because I am not that kind of individual. Again I arn not J.ong--winded and I am not that kind of individual. Rut, Min. Speaker, I cannot see how the Social Services Minister for thE! ProvinCE! could s:i.t. in on the budget process and let. this Minister of Finance do what he did. Now, of courSE!, he wilJ. probabJ.y gc=.!t up in a minute and say I gave them a 4 per cent. increase. MR. TOBIN: We did that last year. Ml~. MATTHEWS: L.4-7 2 JunP 1.2, 1989 Vol XLI WE! did that 1:!very YE!i.'lr.

And i.t L\Jas not enough J ast yE:!iH', the 4 per c E! n t . The h on . min .is t r.'H' must admit. that. But he gave them ll per cent in their social ass::i stancP. But what: did he take back from on the other side? What did he take back? Fifteen per cent? So they are s t:i.11 dotJJn anothel" 6 per cent or' 7 per' CE!n t: or 8 per ·cE!nt, eVE!n though hE· gives them4 pPr cent. Is the hon. minister proud of that? And is that why now we see him going out? They ar·(.~ going l:o ask hi1n now to gE~t back. MR. TOBir~: The lowE•s l: increase .in t:he bud(jet t.o Social Services. MR. MATHI EWS: l~ver had.

Check the budge l: fr·om last year and see the increase that this 1nernber, when he tAJas M ::i n i s t e r of So c ::i. a 1 ~; E• r u ::i. c e s , g o t: in the Social Services budget over thE:! previous year and comparE! :.it. what this Minister of Social Serv::i.CE:~s had t.h:Ls year, yes, you should be ashamed and you would be ashamed as M::i.nisi:er oF Soc:i.al <"" .' ,)erv.1ces. SOME l-ION. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! Mf~.

MATTHEW~): The samE:~ minisl:or as a 1nernbe1" stood :in this flouse fol" four· yE•cn·s and preached about how difficult it. was for social assistant recipients in this Prov"i.ncc:! l:o make ends meet, and I concur IJJ:it.h that. I live on t.hE! strE•(•·l:. IALil:h them. I see them ever'y IAJeekencl I arn horne and ever·y day [ am ho1nE• -- AN HON. MEMBER: And drink beer tAJil:h tht!lrl? MR. MATTHEWS: No, [ do not drink bl:!('l" tl.Ji th No. 10 RlJ'/2

them. No, no, I cannot afFord to dr:Lnk beer anymorE~, and for surE! they cannot afford to drink it now. And thE~ same with t.hE: students, they cannot afford to do that . That is one th:i.ng you cannot afford to do anymore in th:Ls Province. B u t how he c a n s a y t. hat f o r f o u r years and then for me to read over the weekend what he is proposing to do! Now lE!t me just say this to him again, in aJ.l sincE~rity, in all s E!r:iou s ness: I lAJould say there are some cases in the $8 million of overpayrnE!nts that thE~ minister is justJfied in trying to recover.

But I can assure him ·l::.hat most of that $8 mi11ion j s out there lying about somewhere for some rE!ason, and I wouJ.d think that the people who owe it cer·tainJ.y, CEH'tainJ.y cannot affor·d l::.o pay any of it back. The minister said something about tak :ing $10 a month or $.5 e1 month and all that stuff off. I mean, seriously, thE!Y cannot afford to JivE• now. You knotAJ that. I myself have had to take tins of milk out to somE! of them who did not huve enough for thEdr· babies over· the last seVE!n or eight years. I am sure thE!re atne other members of this House have done thE! same.

They cannot afford to give back 5 cents. They do not have 5 cents left. So, again, this great -·- tAJhat is a lo~.Jord I can use on them I wonder? SOME HON. MEMBERS : A bluff. MR. MATTHEW~) : No, no, he is not a bluff. I referred to his crawling around spaCE! and snooping. I rE!ferred to that. Roaming, he roams a lot. MR. R. AYLWARD : He has a new iuit . l_l~'13 June 12, 1989 Vol XLI Ml~ . MATTHEWS : Ri.ght., he does not do much roaming now. I·IE! is like a lot of them ov<::~r ther'E:', they do not r'oarn.

I a 1r1 s u r' e t h a t. w h E! n l: h e W h :L p l: 1:! 11 s them to come out and start. the House , the wc.r' d goo s out, ' Put on your belts and get strapped l::.o your SE!ats, and watch the King, -.if he nods approval then you can rise, but watch him because he might. start to get up himself and, iF he does, you sit'. WE• couJd see what IAJO satAJ a IAJE!C:!k and a ha1f. ago, when the President of T r e a s u r y B o a r cJ IAJ E! n t t o r' j s e :i n h :i s seat, and the King gl~abbc:!d hLm by tho coat, alrnost. t.or·E· h:i~:: ja.cket. off, and tAJhackc•d him back in his seat..

Pulled h:i.l'll dotAJn in h::is sec'lt . Maybe you ud .l1 riSE! onE! of theso days, maybe you udJJ. I will tE•ll you, 1:het"E! has b::!1:!n such a change :in t.hi:; gent.]eiTian s:.i .ncl:• hE! took on the lnE!Spons·ibi1ity oi~­ Minister of Socia] Services. I might say that thE! changE! has nol: bE!en for thE! best., to onJy be abJc l::.o gc~t. a 4 perCE!nt ·i.nclnea::;e for Social Assistance recipients in l: h e P r· o v i n c e , a n d t h 1::! n , l lc! s s l·: h a n a week after he said that, l·w s a i d , ' I am g o "i n g o u t a n d I -:·un gcdng to take $8 ITILJJj .on back fr'oi'rl them.

I a1n going l:o l'h'l.VE• :'Lt. back.' NoL.t.J he said Loday, 'They more than a 4. percent incr1 :\asc~.' But on the other hand he says ' G i v e rn e b a c k $ 8 rn-Ul i o n . 13 o y s , I haue to hav(:• that back.' If the:! minist.c~r' is so sc·r ·.ious dbout the pJ.tght. of l::.he unfortunat:e :.i.n t.:h:i s Province, why do you nol Forego the $8 milJ.ion and leave jt at that. Leavt'! it alone, and st:··.i1.1 go back to Cabinet. and see jf you can get another 2 percent or 3 percent for' l::.he ~)oc:i .a:l Ass :i~:l.ant.s recip·.i.eni:s. Go back Moinistt:!r and see No. 1.0 to Cabinet.

I ':~a.y t·o l"..h~C· of Education, is left, iF you can get a 1\W/3

reasonable increase on tuition fees for thE! students of this Pr·ouince. Students expect l:.o pay a little morE! each year, but they do not expE! c t to bt~ hit. wt th 10 percent. They certainly do not expect that, because ~} pE!rCPnt is averagE!. The han. gentleman knows that, I suppose that he knows that. He should know that. FiVE! percent is a pretty standard increase in tuition fees. MR. TOBIN: Why not the same as for the people on social assistance? MR. MATTHFWS: Four percent would not be bad. That is fair. MR.

TOBIN: How can he justify giving the widows of this Province a 4 pE!rcent increase and charging tlw children who are going to university 10 percent? MR. MATTHEWS: How can you do that? MR. TOBIN: That is crazy. It Minister of Social could do that. MR. MATTHEWS: is only Services the who But anytJJay, Mr. Speaker, I lnE!ally wish and hopE! the speaker is on down in thE! PrerniE!r' s OFfice, because I am sure that if the speaker is on in the Premier's OffiCE! I JAJould say that the pr·ivate elevator· is going to shoot straight on up through this building today, and UH'!

Minister of Finance is going to have to come up with anothc~r $2 mill ion or $ 3 HLL 1 1 i o n ( o r In e p c:d r s , b e c a u s E' I am surr:~ that he tJJi1l not b1?. able• to bE-lieve the behavior of thE' peop1E' opposite, particularly thE' MJnistE'r of Socia] Services. It 1_474 Jum• 12, 1.989 Vo1 XLI is t.he first time I have seen h:i1n like it since he IAJE!nt :in Cab:inet, the first time he has been like "it. 1Newsmaker of Uw Week', ~1>8 m:LJljon he JJJants be1ck. He say~;, 1 Hub :l E! IJJa n t s $9 5 rrd.l1-.i on , I JJJ:i ll gE!t you $8 rrd J.lJ.on of it .. 1 I a1n going to take it fr·orn the:! poor.

What a turn ar·ound. But, of course, they are gett:ing good dirPction and good coaching, and all thE' y havE! to do is wa l~ c h t. he Emperor, how has backtracked and backs1id on ev:::!r·ything 1'1'~ said in the election he would do, from post-secondary education Ln Labrador West to open:in~~ rtiOI''E• ~H>. a 1 t h c c~ r· e b c~ d s , M r· . S p 1:;! a k e In . H e was going to open more beds in the Pro v "inc e . Yes , t.J.JE! s aL.u l d s l~ we c• k about opening more hospital beds -.in this Province. There is no doubt about that.. We saL1J :i.l ..

Yes, he said on the Burin PE! n:i. n s ula he tJJas going t:o open up anothE!r tWE!nty, but hE! is qoi.ng l~o close forty now. That means there arE! twenty lE!SS. NotJ.J that. is the kind of mathematics that the peop1e OVE!r ther·e Cdtne up tAd th. Of course, tJJe can expect that. We:! can expect this government and this budget brought jn by this F.inance Minister l~o co1ne up tJJ:il:h that kind of mcd:.he1nat:.i cs and beliE-ve it. We can, because the Minister of Finance said on the pUb 1 i C a i rwa IJ E!

S 0 (--t h .iS pIn 0 V oi 1'1 C (' that he did not. understand the formu1a to asSE!SS l:he tax burden of thj.s Pr·ovinc:E' lAJ~wn you compcH'C• it JJ.Ji t h o t h <?. r provincE! s . 1·1 e admitted that openly to the people of thE' Province. So maybE' in consuJ.tat.ion 1.ujt.h the M:.i.nj~;ter· of' Hc:~d1th, JAJho has 1c!ft l~hE• Asselllb1y as l.J.JeJ.J, and I say for· a good r· c~ as on he has l E!l~ 1: , h o sa oi d , ' N ot.v, J (' t US ShUt d OIAJn (" 0 I'' t y b C cl S h l'' Y' E' and lJJE! JAr.i11 OpE'n ttJJ1:•nty l:i'l(!I~E•, i:HlU t.: h a t , M r· .

P r· E! m :i. e r· , L\J :I 11 t ::i u .i n tJJ·.il~h your· l"emedy oF open.ing mo1no hosp:Lt.a1 bE=!ds j n Net .. rf'oundland and No. 10 1\ {~ 7 fJ-

Labrador : But you are twenty beds less 1. So maybe that is their' kind of thinking and logic and mathematical calculations. I see the President of Treasury Boclrd is not too conCE!rned hETe. He~ is more concerned with biology and Bt than hE! is with thE! budget of the Province. He is going to use Bt. He is the Bt mernbE!r of the House. He has been that since hE! has bc,~en hE!rE!. Old Bt Baker, that is what he should be known as.

I will tell you something, you w::i.ll stand in this flouse in four or five years, if you are here, a n d y o u tAli 11 s a y , 1 L'li hat a b l u n de r , forcing 13t down the throat of the Minister of Forestry and Agricull:ure! It was rny decision. It was my recommendatjon. I overruled his officials. I, the bioJ.ogist of the caucus. 1 HE! admitted that he is a grE!at bioJ.ogist here just la st year. You will see the destruction of the forE!sts of this PJ"ovince.

That is going to have a very negative effect on the financial position of this Province as well, hundreds and hundreds oF thousands of jobs gone, and the financial position for the Minister of Fin<.HlCE! will worSE!n . Ther -e is no question about it. Mr. Speaker, you see from all ministers opposite t..uhat they haVE! done. What a reversal we have seE!n from uJhen they sat on this sidE! of the House and crit'.icized the thE:'n goVE!rnwent, and then made proposals and recommendations and rE!soJ.ut.ions to this House, Mr·. Speaker. What a reversal and what a contr -adicl:i on!

When I J.ook across at my fr.iE!nd t:he1nr:~. the M:inisb:'r' oF Social ~)C!rvices (Mr'. Efford) who has bE !COJrw so effortless since hE! tAlent over \:hc!re! L4·7 5 June J2, 1989 Vol Xl.I SOME HON . MEMBERS : HE!ar', hear! MR. MATTHEWS; The biggest effort we will see fr'om ~Li.rn now will be to l:ry and get back $8 rniJ.l:i.on from the poor' old widows and the single parents, single mothers .

Now couplE! that, if you will. with an $8 million purge rate on the backs of the social assistance recipients , coupJ.E! that wtth those lAJho ar·e on soC'i.al assistance in \:his Prcwinc~C! who may be fortunate enough to hav1::- a bit of money l:o adequatcdy fE!E!d thE!::i.r ch:.i ldren -- tnaybe J dill onto something here. MR. BAKEl~ : It is about time. MR. MATTHEWS; And it is about ti1n1:! you got up and spokE•. MR. BAKER : You have lots of time . MR. MATTHEWS: Yes. I haVE! Jots of t.irrtE! and l:.h e hon. rnE!tnbt,!r shouJ.d lnE!JnE!tnb er· th( :ott.

The last time I heard lh e han. rnernbc~r spc~ak t..uas wh1 :!r·1 h<.' sai d hello to rne at Knickerbocker s. That is the last: l:itnE! he spok::! until now. MR. TOBIN; The old chicken wing . MR. MATTH EW~i; Yes. The old spicy ch.ic h! n tArinq h:i.mse lf up herE !. Old ch:i.c kPn and r·.ibs, that is what he is. I Loll you, IAJhaL L\Je haVE! SE!E!I1 IJ.J::i th th e Bell Isl and fer1 ny in Uw las t fc•tAJ tJ.Je eks I tAJouJ.d say is more chic kon than t..uing s. AN HON . MEMBER: We will get the MC now . No. J 0 R4 ·7~~.

MR. MATTHEWS: WE ! wiJ.J. get the MC and we wjJJ. see all about that. Stt quiE!tly. flere he comes. What. did I say? What did I say? If he had the spc~akt~r on in his office, what did I say? SomE!One should check thE! eJ.evat.or to see if it went straight up through, because I would say some of the capital budget will have to go for improvements to IJJhat happened over therE! . ThE!rE! .is another thing WE! want to see in the nE!Xt f:i.V(:' rn:inutes, just see any difference in the behavior.

I have bE!en continuously interrupted while I hc:ive been speak:i.ng herE• trying to say some positive things and scrutinize this budget. SinCE! the Premier left, there has been nothing - MR. WARREN: Now he is putting up notes instead of talking . MR. MATTHEWS : Well, where would you think you are. MR. SIMMS: They ar·e not aJ J.owed to speak, so he puts up a note. MR. MATTHEWS : He puts up a note, 'Ask me a question tomorrow.' Now, 'Old Effortless Efford'. EffortJ.ess, that is IJJhat hE! is. He has changed so much, I cannot believe it.

I had a lot of respect for what I thought were the principJ.es of the hon. gr:!ntlc~man IJJhen hE! was in Oppos:L t:.i.on. MR. fOB IN : What! l. 4 7 6 JurlE! 12, 1989 Vol XLI MR. MATTHEWS : Yes, I did. Because I thought he was concerned about t:he pcwple on social ass:i.stance and t:hE! underprivileged of the Province. I r E! a 11 y d j d . BUt thE! n I k n OIJ.J ~H:! sat i::tt thE! Cabinet fable IJJhr:!n the PrE!ITiier said, 'NoiJ.J, John, you be quir::~t. You are going to gc•t 4 per· CE!nt.

Now shut your mouth, that '.is what you are gEd:ting.' Because if he sincerely believed in the p 1 i g h t, hE! would not set t 1 e for · a 4· per cent increase, not wh:i .l.e, at the same t:irne, his Mirrisb :!r of FinancE~ I.J.Ja s rapi. ng the peop1 C:! of' the ProvinCE! for $95 rni .11ion. As I said about: the clothing, if the people on Social Assistanc e are lucky enough to be able to feed their chi]drE•n, which :is vur 'y difficult - it is no laugh ing matter. It is rough for social assistance families in this Province to l:i .ve, to have enough to eat. MR. EFFORD: Who caused it? You did. MR. MATTHEWS: You.

MR. SIMMS : Oh, sure, we caused :it! MR. R. AYLWARD: You are the govern1nent, boy . MR. MATH! EW~;: Why did you not use Uw ~~~::, mi.l.l'.ion surplus that you are projecting to give social assistance recipients what they need? SOME HON . MEMBERS : HE!al", hc~ar! MR. MATTHEWS : Why did you not . co1nc~ .i.n tJJ:il:h d baJ.anced budge t inst:t'!ad of' say ::i.n~1 1JJe arE• go ·ing to havE• ts 111il li on No. 10 RIJ'/6

left? Why did you not as Minister of Social ~~E!ru:Lces say, 1 Hold on a second, Mr. Premier and Cabinet, the people on welfare in this Pt~ov:lncc:~ could do u.J:i th anothcH' $5 milJ :ion bE!Cause thoy do not havE! enough clothing to wear, thE!Y do not haue enough food and they cannot hc~at thcdr homes pr·operly. Why did you no-t. say that, if you are as concerned now as you WEH'e tJJhen you wore OUE!r here? I am serious about that.

The othE!r thing you haue done, you see, is those who aro fortunate enough to have enough food to grow fast, those poor widows and sing1e pat~cwts, thE• minister has smacked i i: to thE!Hl no1.1J by saying, 1 If you ar"E! grou.ling too fast and you are thirteen or fourteen, yo1J pay tax on your clcd:hes. 1 So they are getting it in every way: They are 9E!tting it by the rrrin"istE!r going out and trying to get back the $8 m:Lllion, and by thE! Mi.nistE!r of Finance changing the c1othes t~ules, so thai: they are now going to haUE! to pay if they grow quickE!r than othE!rs.

I live on a strE!et :i.n Fortune and I 1ook at kids who ride bikes and run up and down the st:r-eE!t., and come to uis:Lt. my daughter, and they are tl'lE! same age but different sizes, so how c a n t h e M i n i s i:c~ r· o f F i n a n c E~ s a y , 1 You have to pay tax on your clothing, but you do not have to pay it on yours 1 ? How can hE· say that? I mE!an, people ask me the qUE!St].on and I cannot answ~'r it. I say, 1 You arE! unfortunate that your mother had enough miJk to g:iv':! you, or could feE!d you WE!ll enough. 1 Or, 1 It is hur·ed"it.ar·y. You grE!W Fast .

Your mother and father are bigger Lhan Johnny 1 s' rncd:l'tE!r and fa l:her, so you haiJE! t:.o pay tax and they do not. 1 That :is thE! kind of th:inq that is hard to ~~xp]ajn, And l::hey say, 1 Wel1, I expect you to say that, because 1_4 .7 7 June 12, 1989 Vo1 XU you are a member of the Opposition and you are thE! F]nance critic.' But these are the kinds of questions that are being asked around t.his Prov ·ince toda.y and, I say to thE! hon. gentlE!tTien, tnot~eso than they may r'E!al:iLE!. These kinds of things, by nature, become very, vrc:.!ry unpopular· u.ri l:h thE! electorate, particularly those affected.

And it :is so11wthing they wjll learn as they become accustom<:!d to bEd .ng t:.I'1E! gouern111ent, that. no onE! cares too much as long as they are not affected personally; they can stand i.t and they can st..l.la'l.lniAJ .-Ll: and they can acc~:!pt ]t as Jong a ~=; it does not hit them. The kind of taxes that-:. Lhi.s Minister of Finance has brought in, of course, h:il:s eiJE!r'yonu :i.n Newfound1and and Labrador: p e r s o n a l ".i n c o tn E! 'l: a x a n d s 1:. u d (H.I t. s wit h a 1 0 p e r c e n L t u J. t :i o n h :.i k E! .

Now if the Prern".ier said we are going to tJJhack t:he tu::iti.on Fees up 10 per cent and as a rosult we are going to put that un:ivers:i .t y out in CE'nt.ra l Net.~Jfoundland t.hat. I promised - ovoryone jn Newfoundland saw that as well. MR. TOBIN : Or on the Burin Peninsula . MR . MATH! EW~1: Yes, or whE!t~E!IJor· Ed .se he::• is to put his three or un:iVE!rs:i tiE!S. go:inq four With morE! ME!mori<"'.1 un ·i iJet~s.il:y courses here and there, then we probably could say, 1 WE!l1, ... right? But:. he :.is such d coni: r ad .i c i: .ion !

II ol..l.l he can r~ tH :! n ~~::Lt.: Lher'E:! and preLcncl he! :i~; not. 1 is 1: en .in g , writ . :i n g d n d s i q n i.1 1 g h .is 1et .Lers. I u.muld ~;ay h<~ j~; pr·o ba b 1 y answering s otnE• of 1:: ho letters From the M:inister of F :in an c e . And I wo u 1 d no 1: ~; i'J. y hE" No. 10 I~ Li.7 7

is thanking him for the~ VE!r'Y positj_ue comrllent.s on the budget, either, I would say he is trying to justify lAJhy his govETnlllE!nt. had to do what they did. of couJ~se, we know the bottom line. He blamE!S it on the Tory GoVE!rnmE!nt of years before, who left hjm with a $2. 1 mill.ion deficit in current account.. Since the timE! thf~ budged: came tn, they have bE!E!n trying to convincE• people that they inherited a $90 million defjc:it .. Now thE•y carnE• up with a $90 mLLJ.ion shortfaJ.l and HlE!y decided tAJhat thE!)! 1..\Jere going to do. The old Pr·emier· said, 1 I c:un tough.

I will make the nc:1cessary decisions. Minister of Finance, find me $95 million and we will project a $5 rn:i.llion surpJ.us. And no, John, you wil1 not get $5 million for the pE•opJ.E! who neE!d :i.t in social assistance, that is not important.

It is more important for the Mlnister of Finance to stand up on Budge1t Day and say hE! has a $5 million sur·plus than it is for hjm to stand up and say the social assistance recipients in this Province are going to get a 7 per CE!nt increaSE! this year. 1 Now, that would have been more palatable, a balanced budget tAJith more money going to those who really neE!d it. rhe sma1lest increase is in the Social Services budget. He should be ashamE!d of himself! I cannot beJ.ieve that: he lE!t it happr-..ln, bc::~causr:1 I thought hE! was stronger tJ.d J.led than that ..

I thought he WCl.s a morE• :i.ndepE!ndant individual. I did not Hl".i n k he had to be a lapdog for anyonE•. I st::LJ.l do not think he is, and he wi11 prove it over time. MR. TOBIN: He is a wimp. r!Jf~. MATTHEWS: i_tp 8 June 12, 1989 Vol XLI No, I do not Udnk hE· is a --tAJ·:.Lmp. He wiJ.l pr·ove tt OVl~r U.me. fie t.•.ri.ll rebc~l. He lArill put h.is fi·c.;{: down on the Cabinet: table ono oF thesE• days and he tAJ.ill say, 1 Mr. PrE~m:i.E!r, I have had E!nough of this. Now you give me enough money for thE! people I beLi.eve in or else you haVE! troublE! on yoLH' hands. 1 MR. TOBIN: What is he going to do then?

MR. MATTI-I EW~~: Oh, ·the Ptnernier' IAJ.ill (,j.itJe i.n to hiiTI, bE~c-ause he L1J:i.11 knot.~J he ::is right. If you ask For l:hin<JS l:l.ke that, no one can deny :Lt. Now, I look at members opposite and I look at. some::~ oF Lhc::• l:hin(,:JS thE!)! ha\.1e donE!, and I 1ook at i:·he dismal p(:?.r·for·mancc~s of some of them over there and it makes me want t.o th.ink about E!ducation. T must say to the M:i.rLLs-t.er or· Education that when he was asked a question on post-secondary E!ducation he handlte•d h:irnse1F v("!ry 1..\Jell, he really d:Ld. MR. SIMMS: He had to back off Lhough. MR.

MATTHEWS: He backed ofF, surE! hl:! d:id. fie changed his mind and gave .into the peoplE!. WE:1 understiH1d tha r:. I look at: tho membur· For Explo:i.t:~; and the Minister of Ernp1oyrrwn1: and l.abour ReJ.ations who were so committed to education, led the Newfoundland Teachers 1 Assoc:i.at:::ion tAJhen 1 thE! telnriblE· goVE!r'nrnent d ·Ld not give them any :i.ncr·case~~. not enough 1noney fo1n educa.l:.ion. 1 BeforE:' I say anything eJ.sc:•, I 111u~~l s a. y 1: h a t t h (~ 'i n c r· e <'~ s (! i n l:: h e school equalization grant is a very positive one. It is not enough, but it is closJng the No. 10 1\4'78

gap. We were going to put $5 million morE! in. Maybe that is whE!rl:~ tho $~) rn:iJ.lion sur·pJ.us camE• from. We were going to make it $15 milJ.i .on and then it IAJould be squarE!, it wou1d be tote:1l equalization. The question for the Minister of Education, and for the member for Exploits, and for· the Minister of Employment and Labour Relations particularly, who are carrying the education torch over there, is why did they not bring in full equalization this year? Why did they not do it?

Why ar1?. you saying you hav1~ a ~r,s milLLon surplus in your budgEd~. when you could have given that money to the school boards and education in the areas of the ProvinCE! wherE! it I.Uas nE!E!ded IAIOUJ.d have been better off? MR. SIMMS: A good question. MR . MATTHEWS: A good question . So you SE!e what they haVE! done. They have socked it to the post-secondary education students . They cannot afford to comE! to the uniVE!rsi ty. IF thE!Y managE! to get :i.n hE!re, they cannot go out and relax. They cannot afford a drink or a beer. You would nE!lJer dcH'E• buy a cigar·ette.

You cannot even afford to rolJ. your own. You cannot r·o11 your· own anymore in this ProvincE•. This government has done away with that. The other thing is that they are going to have to stop studying by dar·k, bE!CausE! th(:~ rcd:epayc,rs arE! go-ing to be hit to such a degr'E!E! that. they are not going to be i.'!.ble to afford to pay their electricity bills. MR . SIMMS: And the tax on Gravel has gone up . Ll\.79 June 12, 1989 Vol XLI MR. MATTHEWS: That is the only positive thing about the budget. The poor men and women around this Province are consuming more Gravol to settle their stomachs.

I am not pleaSE!d that they ar·e upset:, but it would be interesting if you could somehow find out t.uhat. thE:· advice of the member For Exploits and the Minister of Employment and l.abouJ ~ Relations was to the PrE!rn'i(:•J~ and to the Cabinet.. MR. TOBIN: Call him the gofer . Ml~. MAT rH EWS: No, I am not go:ing to ca11 hi:n a gofer. MR. TOBIN: That is what Steve caJled me . MR. MATTHEWS: I knc11.u Steve caJ.J.ed you that, but that is Fair. But I wonder what the ir advjce was on education? MS VERGE: What. about busing? MR. MATTHEW S: Ther·e t.•.Jas nothing donl'.~ about: busing whatsoeVE!r'.

ThE! ser·j ous busing issur::~ in E!ducal:ion ·.i.n Hds Province was not even addressed. HcliAJ can they stand over th ::!re and smile and J augh? I am gcdng to make a statement today, Mr. ~)peaker·, and I usuaLLy do ned.: rnake prediction s . I 1nade onE! alrE!ady, that. the dE!Ficit :.L~: go:.Ln~J to come in bEd:WE!en $20 01~ ~~30 1niil'.ion, and the President of Treasury Board just about fe.l1 off h.i.s suat. 13ul:.

I th:ink hE! 1.uas J.augh:inq becausu 1 was bE! in g so cons E! r val: :i v o . ( think the reason he Jaughed wa s because hE! kno1.us it is going t:o !:)(:• much IAJorse than that. fiE'' No. 10 I\W79

cer·tainJy LJ.Jas not laughing because he' is going to hcwe $!) million at thE! end of the fiscal year, he was laughing because hE! found what I said funny. But why did they come in last Tuesday with a document shOI.l.Jing a $r.1 million surpJ.us?

I am going to say something else i:o the member for Exploits and the Minister of EmploymE!Ilt and Labour Relations: It will not be too long before you will l~eally haVE! to stand up for education in Hds Pl~ovinCE!, and you 1.1.Jill lneally haVE! your day under the microscope with the people who really make education tick in this Province, and l:hey arE! the tE!dchE!rs of Newfoundland and Labrador.

After the antics and the frantics and everything else that the two of you got on with over the last number of years, whli:'n thE! timE! comE!S For contract nE!gotiations, I will tE!ll you, you are going to bE! in for· d r·ough time. We wtll SE!e then how concerned you werE• about the teachers of Newfoundlctnd and Labrador, and about education and where your true allegiance lies. We will see it then. That is when tAJe will see thE! test of time. It will not bE! long. When this House opens l:his Fall, I guess.

I sc~e the Premier nodding and smiling at the member for Exploits, r~11.~ssuring him tha·t, 'I wilJ. take car'E• of you, Roger' . 13u t we will see. They will be very interest:ing and trying times. And I hope the government is in a financial post tion whetnE! they can giue teachers tAJhat Uwy duJ.y need, l:o bE! fair. MR. TOBIN: I say they will set up a commission on t..uagE•s. MR. MA rTHEW~3: YE!S, they may set. up a cornrniss:i.on on wages. I would say that is the next th:ing. They haVE! commissions L4-80 Junr:! 12, 1989 Vol XU on evE~rything e1se.

The Pr'E!ITlier' wc~nt about and said, I am gering to r·edUCE'! the size of my CabinPt. It. was at nineteen when he took power and he cut it down to fifteen. PREMIER WELLS: It was twenty-two. MR. MATTHEWS: It was not twenty-two when you took poWE!r, .it was ninEd~E!E!n. NoLJ.J, your tnathE!ITiclt.:ics arE! bad again. TWE!nty fr·om forty is 'l-o.tAJent:y. ThoSE! ar·e thE· ho~;p:Lt.:al beds !:.hat you haVE! now put in thE! neqat-.i.ue in the Province tAriLh yotH' acl::ions in the Budget the other day. So you are off.:-tw:::!nty \:herr;•.

The M:inister· of F:inance did not kncn.u the formula for calculating tax bUinden, so you wer'E! oFF l.her·e and you taxed people more !::han you should have taxed them. You tried to cotnE! in hc:!r'u and convincE· people that we were not t:hu highest taxed people in thr:! country. Now you stood :i.n your' for i'l.. seat, whE!n you got c-:t sr:•at, however long you were here was not all thc~t lon<j and you prE! ached t: hat IAIE' tAJe r· e t: he h :i g he s l.. taxed people in Canada. So how couJ.d you go and do the things that you havC'! done? Thal: .i.s i:hc:· qUE!Stion. AN flON.

MEMB E F~: What are you talking about? MR. MATTHEWS: I am taJ.king about. cotTIITJ:.i.~;sion~:;. You saved probably $200,000 on ministers' saJaries and !-.:heir operations, but you did nol: save any on staff because they are si:ill around. You sa1H·cl pi~obdbly $200,000, and you go and you sel. up a cotnnriss·ion that: is qoi.nq l:o cost. $3 milLion a year'. Why cl.:id you not appo·int tt..uo or t:hi'.'C!(' rnot"E! oF your nlE'mbers to thE• comJTJ:i.ssion No. 10 I~ t~8 0

and pay thc•m a minister 1 s salary?· You would have been just as well off. You would have made them happy, and · l:hE!Y would have done just as good a job. MR. R. AYLWARD: Most of them could do a better job. MR. MATTHEWS: ThE! quE!Stions haVE! to be raised: What else can the Economic RecoVE!ry TE!arn coHIE! up wj.th? What othE!r 1he•co1nrnendations can thE!Y come up with? What can they . do other ·l:han tJJhat was alrE!ady done by the Commission on Employment and Unemployment? You have the same gE!ntlE!man Chai1~ing it as hc:~adE!d that up. AN HON. MEMBER : We could have funded you fellows. MR.

MATTHEWS: What was that? AN HON. MEMBER : We could have funded you fellows . MR. MATTHEWS : You could fund us? MR. R. AYLWARD : You could have appointed us, yes . MR. MATTHEWS: Is that was you sajd, you couJ.d have appointed us? MR. R. AYLWARD : Yes, he was gojng to appoint us. MR. MATTHEWS : No, I do not rE!ally expect you to do that. AN HON. MEMBER : (Inaudible) . MR. MATTHEWS : Sorry! What was that? L./1.81 June 12, 1989 Vol XU AN HON. MEMBER: You were here for seventeen years . MR. MATTHEWS: We were here for seventeen years, YE!S. rhat is trUE!. WE! WE!re. Dut: we tried to do what the peop]e elected us to do.

We tried to govern. We d:i.d not sJ.ough it orf on somE!body elsE! and pay tht:!m fat salaries to do it. That j s what thls Premier and this government is doing. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. MATTHEWS : That is what you are doing . Thtnec::~ milLion dollc:H 'S a yoar. .[ am gotng to t.E!] J you some'l:Jd n~J: IF hon. gentletllE!n and l ad :ic~s opposite were honest, you would admit that tJJhc1t I atn sayin•::J oi.s correct. You d:id not create r~ivc or six additional jobs, or LE!n jobs, tJJ:ith the conmt:.i.~~:.;::i.on, because thE!Y WE!re alroady E!tnployr:!d and some of them IJJEH'e very IAJOJ 1 paid.

What you have done by taking $3 . ~) milLion from the oper·at:.Lon of t:he St. Lawrence and Grand Bank Hosp:LtaJ.s i.s you have given the commission E!nough to pay u.J11a.t:. Lhe cost is going t.o be, and you ar'E! chopping 110 jobs out:. of tho economy of this Province. Now, wrwn lJJe st:.!IC! whal the Commission on Employment and U n e 1 n p 1 o y mE! n t do o v E! r L h o n c:• x l: nutnbE!I~ of yec.H's, if they cr·cate hundr•eds of jobs f~Oin t:his l)rov:ii'ICE' I w:ill be thE! fj ,rst: to adrnit :it tAla s a great t h :in g .

B u t I h ,;\ v e 1: o ask the question aga ·.in: What can D o u g H o u s e c o Ill E! u p w i t: h l: h a t: h e has not al.r'E•ady corne up u.Ji.L h to help ·improVE! t:.he E!Conomic pliqht of th:is Province and to creale 1:!rnployment in l:h:is ProvtncE!? Whdl: can hE~ do? No. 1.0 f\ 1.).8 1

Maybe there are some recommendations in the Commission that couJ.d havE:~ been j_rnplernenl~_ed that w:,uld haVE! helpt>d. A lot of them haVE! bE!E!n :Lmp1E!InE!rltE•d. MaybE! there are more that would help the cause of unEHnpJoymE!nt in this Province, which needs to be addrE!SSed. I wou1d nE!Ver be one to say that we do not have a serious unemployment problem in this Province. We do. And again I would say to this government that by scrapping the Pr·ivatE! Sector EmpJoyrn<:.HJt: Pr·ogram, you have made a big mistake. I since1neJy beJ.ieve that.

I arn not saying that bE•cause I am in Oppos:Ltion or· I IAJas the minjsteln r·esponsiblE! for thE! program for a year, I r·ea]J.y think you have madE! an awful mistake. For every dollar you put into that program you got a dolJar put in by the private sector. fhere were 3,000 peopJe employed Jast year under the program. It was not fifty----two weeks ernployrnE!nl: ---some jobs were -but 30 pE!r cent· of thoSE! jobs turned into full--time jobs. Sixty per cent of those employed undE!r thE!

Plnj_vatE• Sector Employrnr::~nt Pr·ograrn last year· were employed for a longer period of tirnE:' than the subsidy period, which meant that when government withdrew its subsidy to the program, 60 per cent of those E!rnployed stayed on and worked for a longer period of time. Some of those programs and projects were for sixteen weeks, tiAJE!nty IAJeeks, thirty week, forty weEd<s, and so on. It was moving in the rj_ght dir·ect~i.on. ThE!Y id not <:1.11 last for fifty---tJ..vo WE!E!ks, because in Newfoundland and Labrador it is not possible to come up w:i.th many oppor·tunj_t:LE!S l:o create fifty-two week jobs.

I.Jl8 2 JunE! 12, 1989 Vol XLI WE! might as weJl bE• roaJ.~ist·:Lc. I l.istE!rlE!d to the Premier· ta.1.k about thE• fact thcd: he 1..vas not. going to put his bE!lief in lnE!ga pr-ojc~cl:s, but I hear him talking more and rnore about Hibernia anu hycko dE•VE!lopment in Labrador, and a feLu other things he has talked abouL We see that surfacing, r-a-.-is:i.ng its head rnorE! and morE•.

But "if you are not go:Lng to put your be] ief in lnE!ga proj E!Cts and you ar·1:! not go~i ng to fund thE! pr·j_vate sect:or· in Newfoundland and Labrador to try and st:i.muJate and encourage and promote employment, what are your options in Newfoundland and Labrador? What are they? I do not care 1..vho you put in chai"'~Je of an Econc11nic RE!COVel~y Trc!drn. [1: does not matter. I haVE! bE! en t.hE:! JnE!Inbel~ fo1·' the district of Grand Bank For· a JittJ.e morE:~ than sevt"'n yt:!ar·s.

We went through a drastic do\Amtur··n Ln the deep sea fishery, par·ticular·ly, whe1nc~ plants WE!Ine threatened to be closed and so on. 5o thE! Bur·in PE!nsi.nsula Developmunt Fund was put in p1ace, a ver·y good fund. The~ only soint of rnedium-·--sized pl~oject-in -Lhe District of Grand Bank that rE! c Ed.ved fu nd-.-i_ ng tJJa s t·.hc reactivat.:ion of thE! fluolnspai" rninE• :in ~a:. Lat..vr·~'nce.

Il: was c]o~~c·d by A l c an , a s we a 1 1 k now . lrJ E! w u i" ::• lucky enough to find an opc~ra-Lol" to coi'nE! :in, 1..ve gave him solfiC:! $6.8 lTd 1 J j_ on f r· om the fund , an cl t 1·1 e ~~ E:! arE! 110 people IAJOink_inq i:hE·r·e today and they ar·e ear·nj_ng good monE!Y. It IAJas grE!al: for thE! E!COnomy of a town that was totally depressed.

Not..v, out o-F the other· sj_cJu o·F my rno u t h I am going l: o say ti'1<'1l~ [ t.>.Ja s v E· r· y , v e r· y s o r r· y t o s e c t hat ~:; o 1 n (• sixty of those jobs 1..v.i.ll bE! gonE•, j n one f E! 11 s IAJO o p , because of 1:: h c Minis l:or· of F-.inance' s announcument. last Tuesday. So ~)t. Lat~wence :i ~; No. 10 1~48 2

not too much better off. But when you look at the other towns in the district, predominately fishing towns like Grand Bank, Fortune, Point May, LarnaJ.ine, Garnish, and so on, councils and committees and mysE<lf sat for endless hours trying to come up with some way that we could utilizE• the Bud .n PE!n::i.nsula Development Fund, and it is not easy. It is not easy! The odd small business got a fetAl thousand dollars for this and that, for a crushing 1nachine or something or other. Anytime we thought and camE! back to it all, it allAJays came back to being fishery l~elat:E!d.

So what elSE! tAle can do with the fishery? We can do a lot more lAJ'i th the fishE!ry in this Province, and the han. gE!ntJ.eman For ~3t. John's South touchE!d on some of it the other day. But when you look at rural Newfoundland and most of our districts arc:! likE• minE!, you do not have a lot of opportunities. I do not carE!, the Economic RE!COVE'ry TE=!am can go and th~O!Y can bE!at down thE! doors in eVE!ry home in eVE!ry tolAm in my distr·ict, and in eVE!ry other district, and, I wiJ.J. tell you, they just arE> not. going l:o come up with suggestions to creatE! the~ jobs that the Premier t:hinks Hwy arE!.

We do not have to be very bright to know that in this Pr·ov.ince. You do not have to very bright to know it. You have to try, and the governm E!nt is the body eJ.ected by the people:~ of this Pr·ovincc~ to do just that. I think lJ.Jhat this Premier is doing is shirking a lot of his rr:!sponsibiLi.ty c:~s a newJ.y elected Premier with a new mandate, a new Cabinet and a nE!IAJ caucus. I l:h.ink too oftr:•n hc> is srdrking government responsib:i.li ty oFf on othE!r r:~roups, commissions and lE!alTis, and I do not know tAJhy l_/1 .8 3 Jurw 1.2, 1989 Vol XU that is.

He has E!nough capable, competent people over there in his caucus to do most of the work that he is sloughing off on so meone elSE!, SOITIE!OI1E! rlE' is going to pay very, t;ery wEdl to do i l:, I might add, and that is a pr·obJ.em. The Economic RecoVE!ry Team j s going to cost this Province $3 million. I would say that you will be lucky if you gE·t ~J;300,000 va1ue from it.

I say that. not to bE! cynical, but I din VE!l~y, VE!ry familiar with rural Newfoundland and I arn VE!r 'y, VE!ry fanril·.ic:n · with the fishery and have experience tAli t.h trying to u t:i liz1:! the:• 131.11" in Peninsula Development Fund. Dr. House and his team are going to have a rea1 tough l:i.1ne, and l do not think we arE! going l:o SC!E! t:oo many econom:i.c benef:it.s and E~rnployrnE!nt postt.iVE!S fr·om -l:hal: R e c o v e r y T E' a rn .

A s I h a v e ~; <:d d , i r:· you were giving it to people on sociaJ assistance, or you were dtspers:ing the Funds l:o kE•ep jobs that ar'E! nolJ.J thuru, maybe I IAJouJd be a lit 1:1 e morE! pl~o spend .i.nq l.: he $3 rn:i.lJ.:i.on. To taJk about thE! Social ~;erv:i .ces Min:ist:er again, he llli'H.ic=~ a11 kinds of conJJnjtlTlE!nts lAJhen he tAla~; j_n Opposition, additional transition housE!S and alJ th<.~t. k:ind of stuff. ThE!re :is not a pr·ovts ::Lon in the budget For additional tr·ansit.ion houses, none:! whatsoever.

You be1ieved in it so much when you l.o~JE!r'E! .in Oppos ·ition, yet, now t. hat . you have gone in t. o thE! Cabinet you have bE!COrne a cont.rad:i.ct:ion, a lAr:i.mp. You have bE!E!n a IJJirnp. I arn convincc:!d now that you hc-tve been a 1..u:imp :i.n Cabinet.. Yes, you have been a wjmp. You have been a failure. The lowest .increase ever in the sociaJ. assist:ance budgE>!: :.in Uri~; Province. This rnernber, when he was Minister, had double the No . 10 1\1~83

increase:' you haVE! gotten this year, probably the largest increase in the last ten or twelve yrc!ars, and you say, 'Thank you, Premier, I w:.i.11 takE! this litt1E! incr·ease for' my uc~pi.H'trnent, 4 per cent for social assistance recip.iE!nts.' And then you say, 'But hoJ.d on, Premier. I haVE! E!tO get $8 million back fr·om them. I am going to takE! the cJ othes off their backs, because somehow someone made a mistake and OVE!rpa.id them.' How can this minister honestly accuse any socia1 assistance recipient in this Province of being overpaid? ThE! PJ~emiE!l~ .is nodding his hE!ad.

Yes, you have beE'n OVE!rpaid, but not the people on social assistance. No one on social assistance has been overpaid in this Province since Confederation. Do you know anyone? MR. EFFORD: (Inauu:ible). MR. MATTHEWS: WeJ.l, what are you going to yes they have? Wc:1 r·ead what sc-lyin~1· f·.ive or Of thE!ITI. You tE! n are going t.o dollar's a dn:,que MR. EFFORD: (Inaudible) question. MR. MATTHEW~3: say, you take out Yes, you v.dlJ. as~ k the qUE!St.ion. WE! know what you are Jneally rnadE! of notAl. You aJ"e doing IAJelJ., that is no doubt.

You are going to sEd: your llliH'k as the M:i.n:ister of ~3oc.ial St::~rv.iCE!S, no quE,stion about that, the samE! as t.~.Je have seen hmu some other ministers over there are going t.o sEd~ the:i.r' mark. It is not good enough to stand in t.hi s flou s E!, or' befor'E! the:~ med:i.a of this Province, and say the government is thinking about l,_l~8 4 JunE' 12, 1989 Vol XU sorncthi ng nE!W when you jus 1": cut thE! :intc~st·.inE!S out of a pr·ogt"dln that was VE'ry, very pos:il::i.\..'0.. WhE!I'l aJ"E! you gotng l:o "implement. it?

There :Ls no pr·otJ:i.s:i.on in thE' b u d g E:~ t f o I" i t . lrJ h o n a J" e y o u g o :i n q 'l:o :irnplE'ITIE!nt the nev.J pr·ogtnalfls, :i.n 1990-91? In thE! ME!antirne, ·t:hr::~ private sector of the Province gE!tS weaker. Thousands moJ~o people are unemployed. Is that job creation? MR. TOBIN: They increased Social funds by $4 million aDd back $8 m:i.l1ion. MR. MATTHEWS: ~)OJ"vj.ces dr·e l:.ak:.i_ng Well, with lhE!iJ" mathHmat.ics they wi11 probab1y come up lAri.th a plus out of :i 1:. Th1=.!y came up lAr.i.t.h a plus for the budget, but. th<'!Y do not come up v.rit:h a plus fo1n thr:' pE!Ople.

Job creat.jon, Mr'. Speaker·, ::i.n th:is Province i.s a problem. I jusi: referred to the Burin PeninsuJ.a Development Fund and the Private Sector Employment. Pr·ogr·ant, and what thE! gov::!r'nrnE!Ilt is l:J"yinrj to do and where they are trying t.o lead us in this Province, and I can tell them again that you just UE!StroyE!d one of-l:ho mos·l: populdr· programs ever brought into this Province in the Private Secl:or Employment Program, you really did. MR. TOBIN: The Jnin-.ist::'r it to the scuttled it? MR. MATTH EW~3: said sh1':! rE' c orn1ne nd ed Cabinet. NolAJ lAJho No. When thE!

Jn::in:ister· sat: :.in Cabinet, whatever input she hdd into the budget l.hu m.in:.isl".·t:!r' did not know but the Private Sector ErnpJ.oyment PJ"ogram JJ.Jds coJnll Ll.ake~:; lJ.ril:h rais:ins in thE!Jrl. lrJ·il:h h(:!r dispJ.ay J.n !::his HousE:> on LlJ.JO No. 10 1\ 4.8 ~~

occasions on answering questions on the Private Sector Employment Program, seriously the woman did not know. I can understand she is a new minister, and there are a lot of nE!W ministers, but if you do not know Uw ans1.1.Jer to a question, get up in your place and say, I am sorry I do not know the answer, but I will find the information for the han. member and I LJ.r.ill comE! in and tell him tomor-row. I under·st.and that, as do those of us who WE!Ine fortunal:E! enough to be ministers. I suppose I should say fortunatE! 1:!nough. Maybe I shouJ.d say unfortunate, I am not sure. But: that -is to bE! expected.

You need time to be briE!fed on your· depar·trnent. I went through it myseJ.f on two occasions. Thcn·e WE!r·c~ times w~wn 1.1..1e had to s<:J.y to officials, for· God 1 s sake, leave me alone and come back tomorrow. I cannot take any more. The Minister of Education nods in approval, because he• knows that what I am saying is correct. And that is why, of courSE!, he had to go back and get a reversal on Labrador West for January. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. MATTHEWS: Once he was proper·ly br·:iefed, then he said, WeLl maybe lAJe ci.~n bring this in after all .

But I cannot give in Full tilt now and say we will do it in September, so to saVE! sort of half--face let us r:3Ed: the crowd up now, Premier, and say, Boys, hotAJ about January? The minister, in all due rE•spect, was not fully briefed, or they had giVE!n hi111 so rnuch :i.nfo1nrnatJ.on t~hat he could not handle it and h!?. d"id not t.e11 the Premier. Of course tA.Jhat he should have done rnos ·t of a 1 J. tJ.Ja s bring the c l :i. p up :L n t h (:' Cabinet room and showed the L4-8 ~) June 12, 1989 Vol XU Pr·emier and scd.d, 1 PrE!lrl:i.eln, rny God! how can l!JE! back down?

You told those people, In September 1989, you LJ.r.ill hav1:! fii"S l:-- yea1n un:iversity courses. AN HON. MEMBER: You cannot do that, because that would be stupid and silly. r-1R. MATHI EWS: Maybe. MaybE! . But .iF the ministE!Y' had donE! that, he wouJ.d have done the Premier a big favour. And I wi.11 tell you somE·th:Lnq else: If they are s~nart, over· ·Lh<:! next number of weeks and months they will have their r·ese,u-ch/publ ic relations p1::>rson gE!t E!Very clip Fr ·o m the eJ.C!ct.:ion and show them to him.

Because during thE! election t.h:L~; Pr·ern~Lo1 ··· said he was going to open more hospital beds in the Province did he not s 1.1.y that? - the 1~e would be rnor·e money for heaJth car·e and more bE!ds. S:inco lc~st TU(!Sday L.V:i:! have seen a decrease of 20 beds in one region of the Prov:inCE! . That is what :i.t is go:i.ng to amount. to, a decreaSE! of 20 beds. If l:her'(! were 4-0 and you cJ.osed the1r1 l.IP and opE! l't E! d up ·twenty , you cH' e s t:. ·.U 1 dOlAJI1 by 20. MR. BAKER: No _ MR. f\. AYLWFlfW: Treasury Board says no. MR.

MATTHEWS : I know thE! minister lAJdS r'E!Sponsible For Bl:, but [ d1n su1~::! he did not inhale or digest it. I 1n e an , 2 0 fIno rn 4.Q i s 2 0 . Ml~. ~3IMMS: fie j_s only Pres'ident. of Treasur·y Boar·d. MR. MATl-H EWS: No. 10 R 118 c.,

That is right, he is President of Treasury Board. onJ.y The Minister of Finance couJ.d not understand i:hE! formula, l1e d:i.d not: know what the numerator and the denominator were. Why would you expect the M:Lnist:E!r of Finance to know what the numerator and denominator WE!rE! in a formula, a man who just finished teaching at the university? You wouJ.d not expect that in Newfoundland and Labrador. Maybe t:he MinistE!r of Finance is so convinced that post-secondary 1:!ducation :is not: important E!nough i.n thE!

ProvinCE! that hE! wanted to whack the tuttion feE!S up enough s o t hat no o n e w:L 11 go i n t hE! r E! anyway. Maybe that :is why he did it:, I do not know. It : is a good reason for a man who just came out of that institution to go and sock it to the students by 10 per cent. Imagine! I cannot even :imagine it. I l:ell you, I expect in September - MR. TOBIN: Clyde said you are silly. MR . MATTHEWS: SilJy? The Premier says it is silly.

Everyone in Newfoundland and Lclbrador and OVE!ry suggesti.on t.:hat h'as bE!en made :in Newfoundland and Labrador for the last two years, in l:he opinion of the Premier, have been silly and stupid. 1 It :i.s silly and stupid, W:inston, 1 he says. MR. R. AYlWARD: Wait untiJ. Doug House reports . MR . MAT'Tii EWS: Well, other people in Province do have opinions, they haVE! thE! right i.n ProvincE!, as of not.lo.l -- noLtJ, what I referred to him as th:i s and this may bl.':~ hE!rE! L4 -86 June 12, 1.989 Vol XU today is going to be opE!rat.jve in this Province soon - MR. TOBIN : What is that? MR.

MATTHEWS: -- whE!n I rE!ferred to Nor:i_E!ga. And I saw one of the gentlemen down thE•re go for his gun ri.ghl:. at1.Jcly, the rnili tary, and I thour:3ht I t.~oJas gone. He went For his h:i.p l:.i kE! a shot! I thought I had had :it, I I.IJaS gonE!! SOME HON. MFMBERS : HE!ar, hear! MR. MATTHEWS: :in the l-lous~:! or I opened it up now AssE!mbly, and t.~oJhE!n bang from bE!~d .nd rnc for Torngat Mountajns chair. MR. SIMMS: I hE"ar'd l.·.hu l:he 1nernbur felJ off h:i ~> The Minisler of Finance, by the way, had a chance at l:he df~an 1 s job OV('!r lher'E!. l-IE! d~id noL gE>t : it. though .

I wonder i s t h a l: IAJ h y 1·1 (! is socking it to them? MR. R. AYLWARD: Oh, oh! That is IAJhy lw gaVE! i.l: l:o ·t h E!HI. MR. MATTHEWS : Dean over at the university? Ml~. SIMMS : He want.E•d it but h E:O d:icl 1'10 t. 9E!'l:. .it. Dr. Harr .is would not give .il: to hirn. MR. MATTHEWS: Dr. Harris IAJOuJ.d not g:ivE· it l:o hirn? MR. SIMM~) : No. AN HON. MEMB E I~ : HE> did not knmu h-:i.s for111ula . No. 10 1~486

.... MR. MATTHEWS: No, he did not know his formula. I would say thE! only formuJ.a thE! hon. member ever knew was Pablum. They mixed it up for the babies with milk and a bit of bread. SOME HON. MFMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. MATTHEWS: The Minister of Social Services is gone but I can teJ.l you, with what he has done in this budgE!t, that is what he is going to put the people oF Newfoundland and Labrador back to. A 4- pE!r CE!nt increase in social assistance in this Province and he is taU .ng $8 million back. MR. BAKER: H OIJ.J s i.ll y . MR. TOBIN: 'Winst' picked up the word, too! MR . MATTHEWS: Silly?

Well, we wjll wait and see. That is what the people out in the ProvinCE! arE! saying. That is what I heard in Deer Lake this weekE!nd and in Fortune YE!Sterday: 'How in the name of God can my kid have to pay taxes on clothes, Bill, because she grew faster, whE!n your daughter does not haVE! to pay? And you are rna king more money than I am, B:i.lJ.. Your salary has been cut in half, but you are making more money still than I am. As a matter of fact, you are making as much as the wife and I are making t.uorking dot.un in the Fortune fish plant.

You do not. hav(~ to pay l:ax on your daughter's clothes, Bill, but because our daughter grew Fast, lAJE• do. And you can affor-d to pay :i l.. morE! than I can, Bill.' That :is t.uhat peop]E! are saying. ThoSE! arE• the questions they are asking. The President of Treasury Board L487 June 12, 1989 Vol XU can shake his hE•ad aJJ. he t.Ua11Ls, but that is what they are asking. I had calls yesterday fr'om sociaJ. assistance recipients at Fortune L\Jho asked, 'My God, B:U.J., is this Effor·dJess minister· go:ing to t.uant $8 million back now?

I ht:'ltJe callE!d you umptE!en timE:~s, whE!n I do not have enough groceries to get me through the week. As a matter' of fact, you brought : ITI(~ oul: a couple of tins of rn:i Jk on occaston l:o 91?.t IIIE! throu1,3h l::h"-' weekend, until I got my cheque. You haVE! bE! E• n r:1ood E! noug h l'.O do that, Bill. You were Fortunate r::~nough to be able to do i. t. ' Those arE! thE! kinds of qUE!S U ons y o u a r E! a s k e d . W h e t. h C:'! r· o r n o l: members opposite want to believe i t i s u p t o t: h E! m s e 1 v e s • b u l: L h a t: is L\Jhat. is happE!ning out LherE! :in the Province. MR.

TOBIN : They haVE! :i.ncreaSE!d thE! budgel.: by ~j;4- tnill:ion OVE!r what lAW approVE:!d last year. MR. MATTHEWS: It is ridiculous! I cannot-: believe it! They wiped out lhe Sporls FE!deration Funding. Funding l.:o thE• Arts cornmun:ity was so important t.u.Jo months ago. TtAJO months ago sport and recreatjon in Newfoundland and Labr -a dor· L\Je;~e so important. The cul t.ural corrnnun:.i.ty of NewfoundJ.and and Labrador was so important. And I te ] 1 you, :i.

F sornc~one got a lesson fi"Orn the cultural community, you are looktng at h.irn r·ight hE!l"e. r lAJas minister responsible For Culture and I ·inheritr:!d the biqgesl: lnf! SS that you couJd inherit. MR. R. AYLWARD: (InaucLi_ble). No. 10 1\l~B'l

MR. MATTHEWS: I am not going to say u.Jho i.t t..uas from, that does not matter. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! Ml~. MATTHEWS: That is bE!SidE! the point. I had to d~~al u.Jith :it.. It is Li.ke this government. I dJd not say that someone else cr·eab:!d th(->. mess. It dOE!S not rnatt.E!r u.Jho was ahead of me, thE:~ tiring t..uas, as Mtniste~r of Culture, Recreation and Youth, when I took the Oat~. I had to dea] wjth it. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hE!ar! Ml~. MATTHEWS: In the same way, when you went to GoVE!rnrnent House and l:ook thE! Oath to bE! Premier and ministers, you took the responsibility.

Ti'wre is no point. :i.n pointing a f:i.ngE!r at anyone else -take it. Because you did not have to comE! up wj.th $95 rn.ill:ion addit:iona.l reVE!nue "if you did not want to. You did not have to do' E!VE!rything you hav(~~ done this year and you did not have to gE!t it all this year. IF you U.Jant:ed to, you could haVE! staggered it a bit, or you could have sa:i.d, 1No, boys, the pE!ople are taxed too much now. Just look for $40 rnilljon or $50 million, not ~~90 million, not $95 rnill:ion. Let us do ha]f of it. 1 You d:1.d not have to do E!Verything you did th:1s year.

Nou.J, for somE! reason, over there, you think you did. But :it: j s your decision u.Jhat you are doing this year in this Province. It is your decision. And you could havE• taXE!d l:he people less. You could have bought in a personal .income tax :i.ncreasP of 1 per· CE!nt and not 2. That tAJas your de ci. s"ion. It could have meant that you had to do L488 June 12, 1989 Vol XLI }E!SS, or you COUJd have COITIE:! jn and shoWE!d a. $40 m".illion d~:!fici.t instead of a $5 rn:i.IJ.:ion surplus. T h a. t u.Ja s y o u r d ~?. c.i s i o n . W h a t. i. s the President of Treasury Board shaking his head at?

Two years ago we had a $173 rn:i.lJ:i.on deficjt:. MR. R. AYLWARD: And we were still not doing enough. MR. MATTHEWS: And U.JE! still t..uer'E• not. do:i.ngJ enough. And we were not doing enough whE!I1 WE! left, and U.Je JAri]J. not. do E!nough whE!n tAlE! coJrHo! back. You wi1l never do enough. MR. WALSH: You wil1 never be back. MR. MATTHEWS: Yes. Oh yes. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Yes. Yes. MR. MATTHEWS: Let TTl(~~ t:e11 the hon. gent1E!lTlan up there, old Wings and Ribs, the ch:i.ckE!n t.u:i.ng that repreSE!nl:.s; Mount:. Sc:io ·-Bell Island.

I do not know how his representation in Mount Scio is, but on B~d.l Island i l: hds bf!en despr:'ratE!; the tU.JO F"E•rJ"'Y cornmitrnE!nt i.s not..u rE!duced l:.o on('!. What I was go:.l ng to say t.o hi 111 :.i.~= .• as sure as I arn going l:o 1··un "int-_o him up at Kn:i.ckerbockers, and I would put a good bet on that -the fjr·st counci.J. to come :.i.n notAl t.hat can aFford to buy me a dinner r am going to take them to NickerbockE!rs, and thE!Y iH'E! corning in tomorrow. So I am going to be at Knickerbocker's soon.

I ca.nnot afFord to take l:".hem anymore~-a~=; s u r· e a s t hat , we to~ri 11 b e b a c k a n d :it u.J:i.J 1 not be a Jong t-..i1ne. SOME HON. MEMBERS: liear, l·lE!ar! No. 1.0 1~488

AN HON . MEMBER: fhree Y'''ars . Ml~. MATTHEWS: ·~:y·c;u- · ca·n hoJ.d up your· fingers, five, ten and twenty. Of coursE!, when we were over there we did the same thing. When I left over th~~re in March, I thought I was still going to be over there today. AN HON. MEMBER: In twenty years the NDP will be the official opposition. Ml~. MATTHEWS : That is right. In twenty years t .. ime the NDP tAri11 be thE! offic:i.a1 opposj.tion. AN HON. MEMBER: Cle Newhook (inaudible) . Ml~. MATTHEWS: Yes, he will bE!. I arn stH'E! hE! wt 'll be .

If he cont. in u E! s the success he had in the last provincial election, I arn sure he wiJ.l be here in twenty years. But then, on the other side of the ccdn, it is funny about this game, is it not? You can laugh at t:he han. gentleman up therE! now, but if his support had not collapsed and gone to you, you would stiLl. be over hE!re and we would bE! over there. Do not forget that, either. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hE!ar! MR. MATTHEWS: He know that as well. That is what got you over there . NotJJ you are over there, and tJJe all have to a c cr.:~ p t it .

As hard as ::i. t tJJa s for the First month - my, God, talk about Gravol! SOME HON . MEMBERS : flear, l·wc: ~r! MR. MATTHEWS: L4-89 June 12, 1989 Vol XI...I The dr·uggj st in For·tunE! sa:i.d, 'Bill, I cannot g:ive you any morE!. You cannot havE• j i'.:. Sorry, you ar·e ovE!r your l.itn:it. 1 I ~;a.i.d, 1 WelJ., I tAJil1 tr·y soll'lE!th:i ng E!] SE!. 1 AN HON. MEMBER : (Inaudible). MR. MATTHEWS: Wel1, that. is tlw pcdnt, cultural community. I had to i.t. st:r·a:i.ght on. I had to with 'it and I d'id. I dE!a1.l.: it as I thought was right and is all anybody can do. IF listen to lhE! communjty and listen to thE!

Arts Council and listen to the Province and factions that existed thE!n, t. hE! rnE!et deaJ with that tried to make a dec:is-:i.on that thought tJJould work and ·i. t d .id, you you you the you you it it irnpr·oved. It is not li-Jhal:. should be, but il: improved. But when I look at this budgGt and seP IAJhat. thi .s adrninistt~ation IAJho, two rnonths ago bel:iev0d that c u 1 t. u r e a n d h E! t' i t a g e a n d t h e a r· t. s of this Plnovinu:~ WE!ro so important I s e e my c o11 E! a g u E! f r o rn f·l u rn b E:! r' East (Ms Verge), MS VERGE: A cut for I: he A r· t. s Counc:i] (inaudible) . MR .

MATTHEWS : YE!S, a cut. for the Ar ·t.s Council. Can you imaginE!? Not.._, L11hy tAJou] cJ they do l:hat? MaybE! thE~ M'inisl.:Hr of F:inance can t.eJ.] TilE'' why he would cut funding to the Arts Council? It is not important.. What E!lSE! can it bn? Ol:.he:!r pd.orit.:i.E!S? MR . SIMMS : He did not know he cut it . MR. MATTHEW~): He did not:. know he cut it? He did not know l..he formula. Whon he pu-t: No. 10 R489

the numer·ator into the dl:.norninat:or· and rnul U pliE!d it carnE! out wrong? Anyone knows tha t if you gave someone a half million dollars last y1:!ar and gave thE!In $300,000 this yE~ar that :Lt is 200,000 less. I can see the Prernil:.l~ shaking his hE!ad. What arE! you shaking your head about? It is simple mathematics . AN HON. MEMBER : He cannot stay awake . MR. MATTHEWS: He cannot stay awake. I can believe that. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. MATTHEWS : No, I do not bE!lieve that . That is not why he is shaking his head. MR. R. AYLWARD: No, that is not it. MR.

MATTHEWS: He is shaking his hE!ad because ho cannot believe that one individual could stand up in this House and make this much sense in such a short period of time. SOME HON. MEMBERS : I-IE!ar, hE!ar! MR. I~. AYLWARD: He is t.uishj ng he had you j n hj s CabinE!t. Ml~. MATTHEWS : Yes, I know . I am not taking any calls after thE! House closE!S fr·om thE! Pr'E!mier. MR . R. AYLWARD: Kitchen would be gone in a hurry . MR. MATTHEWS: Maybe he will still be shakjng his 1_490 June 12, 1.989 Vol XL.I head From his bus tour oF the district of Grand Bank, and how there could be that many signs when he went through. MR.

TOBIN : And Marystown. MR. MATTHEWS: Yes. In Burin Placentia WE!S l:. there were even more . Maybe hE! shook his head and sa:id, how could any onE! l'nEnnbr.~r tJJho served in that terrible Tory government - that is LJJhat ho called it - how could all those pE!OplE! down hE!rO pul~ s.i.gns up in t.hetr IAJ:i .ndows and believe ::i.n l::h:i ~~ man? It was a rough ride for lhe Prern:ie