Manitoba Hansard — 90 ISSN 542 (Sitting 21, 35th Legislature, 1st Session)

35-1-21

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

IG-8048 First Session • Thirty-Fifth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS (HANSARD) 39 Elizabeth 11 Published under the authority of The Honourable Denls C. Rocan Speaker VOL. XXXIX No. 21-1:30 p. m., THURSD AY, NOVEM BER 8,1990 ISSN 0542 -5492 Printed by the Office of the Ou_,s Printer. Province of Manitoba

MAN ITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Fifth Legislature Members, ConstHuencles and Political Affi liation NAME ALCOCK, Reg ASHTON, Steve BARRETT, Becky CARR,James CARSTAIRS, Sharon CERILLI, Marianne CHEEMA, Gulzar CHOMIAK, Dave CONNERY, Edward, Hon. CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. DACQUAY, Louise DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. DEWAR, Gregory DOER,Gary DOWNEY, James, Hon. DRIEDGER, Albert, Hon. DUCHARME, Gerry, Hon. EDWARDS, Paul ENNS, Harry, Hon. ERNST, Jim, Hon. EVANS,Ciif EVANS, Leonard S. FILMON , Gary, Hon. FINDLAY, Glen, Hon. FRIESEN, Jean GAUDRY,Neil GILLESHAMMER, Harold, Hon. HARPER, Elijah HELWER, Edward R.

HICKES, George LAMOUREUX, Kevin LATHLIN, Oscar LAURENDEAU, Marcel MALOWAY, Jim MANNESS, Clayton, Hon. MARTINDALE, Doug McALPINE, Gerry McCRAE, James, Hon. MciNTOSH, Linda MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. NEUFELD, Harold, Hon. ORCHARD, Donald, Hon. PENNER, Jack, Hon. PLOHMAN, John PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. REID, Daryl REI MER, Jack RENDER, Shirley ROCAN, Denis, Hon. ROSE, Bob SANTOS, Conrad STEFANSON, Eric STORIE, Jerry SVEINSON, Ben VODREY, Rosemary WASYL YCIA-LEIS, Judy WOWCHUK, Rosann CONSTITUENCY Os borne Thompson Wellington Crescentwood River Heights Radisson The Maples Kildonan Portage la Prairie Ste.

Rose Seine River Roblin-Russell Selkirk Concordia Arthur-Virden Steinbach Riel St. James Lakeside Charleswood lnterlake Brandon East Tuxedo Springfield Wolseley St. Boniface Minnedosa Rupertsland Gimli Point Douglas lnkster The Pas St. Norbert Elm wood Morris Burrows Sturgeon Creek Brandon West Assiniboia River East Rossmere Pembina Emerson Dauphin Lac du Bonnet Transcona Niakwa St. Vital Gladstone Turtle Mountain Broadway Kirkfield Park Flin Flon La Verendrye Fort Garry St. Johns Swan River PARTY.

Liberal NDP NDP Liberal Liberal NDP Liberal NDP PC PC PC PC NDP NDP PC PC PC Liberal PC PC NDP NDP PC PC NDP Liberal PC NDP PC NDP Liberal NDP PC NDP PC NDP PC PC PC PC PC PC PC NDP PC NDP PC PC PC PC NDP PC NDP PC PC NDP NDP

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Thursday, November&, 1990 The House met at 1 :30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUT INE PROCEEDI NGS TABLING OF REPORTS Hon. Bonnle Mltchelson (Min lst�r of Culture, Heritage and Recreation) : Mr. Speaker, it is my pleasure to table the Supplementary Information for Legislative Review for the 1990-1991 Estimates of the Department of Manitoba Culture, Heritage and Recreation , and also the Supplementary Information for Legislative Review for Community Support Programs under the Department of Culture, Heritage and Recreation. MINIS TERIAL STATEMENTS Hon. Gary Fllmon (Premier): Mr.

Speaker, I have a ministerial statement. I wonder if I could have leave to revert to Ministerial Statements. Mr. Speaker: Does the Honourable First Minister have leave to revert to Ministerial Statements? Leave? Agreed. Mr. Fllmon : Mr. Speaker, on Monday during consideration of the Estimates of expenditure for Executive Council, I provided information in response to questions from the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Doer). I refer specifically to his questions relating to the International Institute for Sustainable Development.

I attempted to answer it without complete in formation, since the expenditures are contained within the Estimates of the Department of Environment. Unfortunately, the num bers I provid ed were not correct and underestimated the total financial contributions from the Government of Canada to the institute. To set the record straight, Mr. Speaker, I have a document, copies of which are attached, to provide for the Leader of the Opposition and the Leader of the Second Opposition Party (Mrs. Carstairs).

This one-page fact sheet summarizes the contributions from the Province of Manitoba and the Government of Canada to the Intern ational Institute for Sustainable Development. The Province of Manitoba is providing a total of $800,000 in the first year of operation and will be providing $1.375 million in each of the next four years for a total five-year provincial contribution of $6.3 million. In this current fiscal year, Environment Canada is providing $1.75 million and will provide in each of the next four years $3 million for a total five-year Environment Canada contribution of $1 3.75 million.

The Canadian Int ernation al Devel opment Agency, CIDA, will be providing a total five-year contribut ion of $5 mill ion. The Western Diversification office in Winnipeg has provided a first-year, start-up grant of $149,925.00. In total, the Province of Manitoba is contributing $6.3 million over five years. The Government of Canada is contributing $18.9 million for a total funding commitment to the International Institute for Sustainable Development of $25.2 million. The federal contribution is three dollars for every one dollar the Manitoba Government provides . Mr.

Speaker, I apologize for not having provided as complete information as I might have to the Leader of the Opposition when he asked the question on Monday. International Institute for Sustainable Development **Comparison of$ contributions to date: -Province of Manitoba $3 27,500.00 -Western Diversification -Environment Canada (8/12 of 1st yr. contrib) Total to date: $ 149,925.00 $1.166.666.66 $1 ,644,091.66 **Contributions over the next 5 years: Province of Manitoba -90/91 $ 750,000.00 One time start-up -- 50.000.00 ··� ''"'-800,000.00 ....... .

936 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA November 8, 19 9( In each of the next four years -$1 ,375,000.00 TotalS yr. 5.500.000.00 Provincial Contribution: $6.300.000.00 -Environment Canada -90/91 $1 ,750,000.00 -In each of the next four years -$3,000,000.00 TotalS yr. $12,000,000.00 Env. Can/Fed. Contribution: $13.750,000.00 -C.I.D.A. Total 5 yr. Contribution $ 5.000.000.00 -Western Diversification Office Total Contribution $149.925.00 TOTAL COMMITMENT OVER 5 YEARS: $25, 199,925.00) Mr.

Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition) : We are pleased for the Premier's information today, and we are pleased to have on the record the contribution from the federal Government. As the Premier will well understand, it has been very difficult to ferret out the information dealing with the federal Government. We were told initially it was $100 million from the federal Government. Then we were told it was $50 million by Mr. Epp.

Then we were told it may be somewhat less than that, so we have always wondered what the real contribution from the federal Government would be when we considered the pre-federal election announcement of the Prime Minister at the United Nations in New York in September of 1988. We note that there are some funds coming from CIDA, and although we are happy that money is forthcoming to Manitoba, I am somewhat worried, Mr. Speaker, that cutbacks to third world countries that have been in the last two federal Conservative budgets would now be used.

Although it is a worthy project in Manitoba for sustainable development, I somewhat worry, in light of the plight of third world countries and Canada's shrinking contributions to people in the world who really need it, investment to get opportunities that we are so accustomed to in our society. We look forward to the Sustainable Development Centre. We truly hope that it is a world-class operation. We truly hope that it is consistent with the recommendations from President Brundtland on the Brundtland Commission as Canada's response.

We truly hope that the aspirations contained within the Brundtland Commission that we will have a balance between economic development and environmental development. We truly hope that this will be the prototype model for the world and that Manitoba will not only have the centre here but lead by example on the very, very important environmental projects and challenges it faces. Thank you very, very much. •

(1335) Mrs. Sharon Carstalrs (Leader of the Second Opposition) : I too thank the First Minister for providing the accurate information. However, ! think we should take note that it is unfortunate for Canada and indeed the world that the original commitment of the federal Government has been reduced to some 18.9 percent of what they had originally indicated they would be prepared to do.

I also, with the Leader of the Opposition, have some concern about the funding that will come via CIDA. lt has unfortunately been all too often that First World nations have destroyed the environment for those nations in the Third World, and they are now contributing, because of their own purchasing practices, to the further erosion of the environment in those Third World nations.

I hop e that the Centre for Sustainable Development will be able to place a focus not just on the activities of First World nations, but in somehow helping Third World nations to alleviate some of their economic problems which will prevent them, particularly in places like the Amazon, from further destruction of our environment. In order to do that, we are going to have to be prepared to contribute some additional funding to those nations so affected. INTRO DUCTION OF GUESTS Mr.

Speaker : Prior to Oral Questions, may I direct the attention of Honourable Members to the gallery, where we have with us this afternoon from the Dalhousie Elementary School eleven Grade 5 students. They are under the direction of Barbara Juskow. This school is located in constituency of the Honourable Member for St. Norbert (M r. Laurendeau). Also, this afternoon we have from the Dauphin branch of the Assiniboine Community College sixteen business admin students. They are under the direction of Gregg Anderson. This school is

November 8, 19 90 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA 937 located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Dauphin (Mr. Plohman). Also, we have from The Ma ples Col legiate twenty-five Grade 12 students. They are under the direction of Mr. Boyko. This school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for The Maples (Mr. Cheema). On behalf of all of the Members, I welcome you all here this afternoon. ORAL QU ESTION PERIOD ACRE Group Proposal Hazardous Waste Storage Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition) : Mr.

Speaker, following on the announcement of the Premi er's today on sustainable development, perhaps we have a sustainabl e development challenge in our own province. We have become aware that the ACRE operation, which was established by the Government dealing with the contaminated pesticide containers, has asked the Government to be able to store 500,000 pounds of material in an old wooden hangar near Rivers which is directly located above the aquifer for the City of Brandon. I would ask the Premier, does he feel this to be a safe location for those containers?

Will he ask his officials in the Department of Environment to stop this proposal from the ACRE group that was established by the provincial Government? *

(1340) Hon. Gary Fllmon (Premier) : Mr. Speaker, as the Member knows, the funding for ACRE comes through a levy, a surtax, that is put on each container of new chemicals sold in this province, that it is a board that is made up of people from both the farm sector, the various groups, the municipal representatives. I believe the Chair is Reeve Bill Galloway from the Swan River area. This group is certainly not an arm of Government but would indeed come under all of our restrictions.

We would be very, very careful to ensure that any proposal from them would meet our regulatory requirements, our standards and our assurances of protection for the environment in all respects. They would not be treated any differently than any component for a proposed storage of chemicals or even spent chemical containers. So I can assure the Leader of the Opposition that that proposal, if indeed it exists, will be reviewed very, very carefully and will have to meet the most stringent requirements that are set forth in our Environmental Act and regulations.

Manitoba Hazardous Waste Corporation Pesticide Disposal Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition) : Mr. Speaker, as the Premier is aware, another storage site from ACRE just recently, in fact October 6, had a major fire at the Grosse Isle location of the Province of Manitoba and forced the evacuation of a number of citizens. We have raised this issue before with the Premier in terms of the policy issues between having these pesticides dealt with by the Hazardous Waste Corporation, a Crown corporat ion, or having it deleg ated as the Government has done to this other group.

My question to the Premier is: Will he not review the disposal of pesticides as a major hazardous waste challenge and return the pesticide disposals in this province to the Hazardous Wa ste Corporation, that has the expertise, which has the mandate and which has the ability to deal with this issue as they are in other sites in the province? Hon. Gary Fllmon (Premi er): Mr. Speaker, I am sure that the Leader of the Opposition is aware that the Hazardous Waste Corporation still does not have a site for storage or treatment of waste facilities.

So in fact they would be choosing to store these containers in some location in this province which would be the subject of potential hazards and be the subject of potential accidents. The fact that it would come under a Crown corporation and be stored makes it no less susceptible to hazards or to other forms of concern. Our standards would still apply. We would not change the standards because they were a Crown corporation. We would not change the standards because they were subject to a corporation that has representatives from the farm community, from municipal jurisdictions and so on. The standards prevail.

The Act prevails. All of the restrictions prevail regardless of who the proponent is. Indeed, if it is a Government proponent, I think the people have every just right to have assurance that they are not going to be treated specially because they are a Crown corporation. So, Mr. Speaker, I suggest that the Member does not recognize that

938 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA November 8, 19 � when Manforwas under the Crown ownership under the NDP, they were one of the worst polluters in the province, and that gives absolutely no assurance or guarantee of environmental protection to the people of Manitoba. Government Policy Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition} : Mr. Speaker, the Premier should get in touch with officials in his own department that are coming to us and saying that this thing is out of control.

The Premier has already issued licences to places like -(interjection)-yes, I would name them, all right. lt would be a one-way ticket with this bunch over there. We have already seen the standards that this Government uses with the Solvit licensing. I would ask the Premier, given the fact the Hazardous Waste Corporation is working with Hamiota and Prairie Environmental Services and operating a decontamination storage and recycling operation, Mr.

Speaker, which is dealing with these pesticides in an orderly way, and given that officials in his own department are saying that this other site is dangerous, it is susceptible to fires, it is susceptible to potentially contaminating the water supply of the City of Brandon, would the Premier please look at the whole issue of toxic waste and contamination issues and get an overall policy that allows the Hazardous Waste Corporation to lead the issue rather than being forgotten as the Government is doing? *

(1345) Hon. Gary Fllmon (Premi er): Mr. Speaker, I repeat that the allegation that the Leader of the Opposition is making is a spurious one and wrongly based in terms of logic. The fact that Crown corporations are put in charge of waste does not give any assurance that they as proponents are going to be any differently treated than is indeed a non-profit group that is arm's length that involves farmers, municipal officials on the board. The best proof of that of course is the way in which the NDP handled Manfor as a Crown corporation, gave them no licence and allowed them to pollute indiscriminately.

That is what ought to be compared when we take a look at how they deal with it. I will review the matter that he has put forward with the Minister of Environment (Mr. Cummings), and if there is cause for concern, I will have his officials investigate the matter and give us recommendations on the issue. Acting Minister of Cul ture Removal and Apology Request Ms. Ma rlanne Cer llll (Rad lsson }: Since the Minister of Energy and Mines (Mr.

Neufeld) put his comments on record regarding multiculturalism and Government funding policies, which imply that one group, the WASPs as he said, support all other groups, a number of organizations within the ethnocultural community have spoken out against those sentiments. In spite of the wide reaction against the Minister's comments, however, the Premier has refused to remove his Cabinet status as the acting Minister for Culture, Heritage and Recreation, nor has any public apology review of the divisive effects of this Minister's comments been initiated.

I have a letter written and signed by members of the Manitoba- Mr. Speaker : Order, please. Does the Honourable Member have a question? Kindly put your question now, please. Ms. Cerllll: lt is obvious from this that members of our community are outraged. In light of this letter from members of the lntercultural Council and the Premier's own comments, will the Premier now finally agree to take some action and remove this Minister from his acting st atus as Minis ter responsible for Culture, Heritage and Recreation? Will he ask for a full apology? Hon.

Gary Fllmon (Premier) : Yes, my response is the same as it was last week and the same as it was the week before, Mr. Speaker. Manitoba lntercultural Council Cabinet Committee Meeting Ms. Marlanne Cerllll (Radlsson} : Besides the letter from MIC, I have another letter from the Manitoba Association for Rights and Liberties, which echoes many of the concerns which have been raised from both these within this Chamber and outside. In light of these concerns- Mr. Spea ker : Order, please. I am sure the Honourable Member was just going to get to her question. Ms.

Cerllll: -will the Premier now instruct the Ethnocultural Committee of Cabinet to meet with the lntercultural Council, as was prom ised last November, and deal with the lack of confidence in this Government's policies toward multiculturalism?

November 8, 19 90 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 939 *

(1350) Hon. Gary Fllmon (Premier) : Mr. Speaker, this Government, our Minister of Culture, Heritage and Recreation (Mrs. Mitchelson), our Members, myself, have met time and time and time again with members of the ethnocultural community. We have been open to their views. We have consulted. We have listened to much of their advice. We have appeared on public forums with them. We have done many things to ensure that there were open lines of communication. We are the first administration in the history of this province to develop and publish a multicultural policy.

We have gone further and indicated to them that we will develop a multicultural Act, the first for this province. I believe that our record indicates where we stand with respect to those policies. We have done a very good show and a very good job with respect to our relationship with the multicultural community. Ms. Cerllll: lt has been over a year since their committee has met with MIC- Mr. Speaker : Order, please; order, please. Point of Order Hon. Clayton Man ness (Government House Leader) : Mr. Speaker, it seems like the new Member for Radisson (Ms.

Cerilli) is learning quickly from the old Member for Ain Aon (Mr. Storie) with respect to supplementaries. lt is one thing for Members to flaunt the rules, but it is another thing for Members to deliberately flaunt you when you stand up and ask them to come to order. I ask you to take action, because the Members are berating you and indeed the rules of this House. Mr. Steve Ashton (Opposftlon House Leader): Mr.

Speaker, it is quite in order for the Government House Leader to bring to the attention of the House items which he feels diverts from our rules. lt is not in order for him to talk about Members deliberately flaunting your authority. That is a very improper statement on behalf of the Government House Leader. I would ask him to withdraw that. If the Government House Leader would care to reflect he would note that on many occasions many people on his side who have been called to order, including the Premier (Mr. Filmon) on many occasions, have adjusted to those comments and have attempted to follow the Speaker.

No one has suggested that the Members have deliberately flaunted the authority of the Speaker. I would really ask the Government House Leader to withdraw that charge. Mr. Speak er: Our Rule 38 (1 ): •a member addressing the House, if called to order by either the Speaker or on a point of order raised by another member, shall sit down while the point is being stated, after which he may explain." I would also like to remind the Honourable Member that a supplementary question should not require a

preamble. I would ask the Honourable Member to put her question now, please. Manitoba lntercultural Council Anti-Racism Report Ms. Marlanne Cerllll (Radlsson) : Mr. Speaker, my final supplementary is for the Minister of Culture, Heritage and Recreation. Will the Minister tell the House when she will table and implement the much needed lntercultural Council action plan to address racism that she has been hanging. onto since September? Hon. Bon nle Mltchelson (Min ister of Culture, Herftage and Recreation) : Mr.

Speaker, I would like the Member for Radisson to get her facts straight before she puts a question on the table. As a matter of fact, I have a copy of an interim report presented to me on October 30, 1990, from the Manitoba lntercultural Council, a report that is not going to go to the full council until January of next year for ratification. I have had that copy of that interim report for approximately one week. We will be looking at that report and moving on recommendations and making a full response when we get the final, adopted, approved report from the total MIC in January of 1991 .

Min ister of Energy and Mines Communi ty Concerns Mrs. Sharon Carstalrs (Leader of the Second Opposition} : Mr. Speaker, there are som e Ministers and indeed Members of the Chamber on all sides who occasionally make a statement that they regret having made. lt is quite common in this

940 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEM BL V OF MAN ITOBA November 8, 19 90 House to stand up and apologize for that kind of statement. Then we have the Minister of Energy and Mines (Mr . Neufeld). ln this case not only does he not make an apology, day after day after day he makes even more outrageous statements. Can the First Minister tell the House, is it a new policy of his Government that they do not listen to members of the community who represent thousands of Manitobans when they speak out on an issue of deep concern to them? Hon. Gary Fllmon (Premier): No, Mr. Speaker. Mrs.

Carstalrs : Well, then can the First Minister explain to this House why the Minister of Energy and Mines was not even prepared to read a letter from people re presenting thousands of interested Manitobans, because he has so deeply offended them, and will the Rrst Minister demand that he at least read it and pay some attention to it? * (1 355) Mr. Fllmon : Mr. Speaker, I have indicated time and time and time again the same response to the issues concerned . So has the Minister of Energy and Mines. He has put on the record time and again what he has indicated and where he stands on the issue.

I cannot do anything further to satisfy the Leader of the Liberal Party. She will not be satisfied. She wants to continue to make a major political issue out of this, and she is entitled to do it, but my views are on the record and so are those of the Minister of Energy and Mines. Government Apology Mrs. Sharon Carstalrs (Leader of the Second Opposition ): Mr. Speaker, it is very easy to satisfy the Leader of the Liberal Party, and that is tor the Premier to now stand in the House and apologize tor the remarks of his Minister yesterday and two weeks ago.

I want to know why the Premier will not give an apology to thousands and thousands of Manitobans on behalf of this Minister. Hon. Gary Fllmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, I will not apologize for all of the positive things that we have done for the multicultural community in Manitoba. We are the first Gove rnmen t to dev elop a multicultural policy. We are the first Government to commit to a multicultural Act. We have opened up consultation. We are opening up a multicultural outreach office.

We are doing many, many, many things that hav e never been done with the multicultural co mmunity fo r the multicultural community. Winnipeg Police Department Minority Representation Mr. George HI ekes (Point Douglas): The question is to the Premier. lt is becoming clear to the public in gener al what minority groups in Winnipeg have known for years , that minorities are not welcome on the Winnipeg Police Force.

Even with special programs in place to prepare minority candidates, senior officials are now openly admitting that the police are putting up artificial barriers in the hiring of minority recruits to prevent qualified minority recruits from being hired .

I would like to ask the Premier, since the Attorney General, city co uncil lor s and co mmuni ty representatives have for years been meeting with the chief of the Winnipeg Police to try and get him to start accepting minorities in the force and it obviously has not worked, when will the Premier direct the Attorney General to use the full weight of his office to make it happen? Hon. Gary Fllmon (Premier) : The policies of the City of Winnipeg are within the jurisdiction of the City of Winnipeg and not within the jurisdiction of the Province of Manitoba. They have

an Act. Mr. Hlck es: Mr. Speaker, if my 11 -year-old son is at some point interested in becoming a police officer in his own city, it is most likely he will not be able to do so unless the attitudes and practices of the police force change. Is the Premier still willing to accept a situation where 30 per cent of the residents of this city cannot be part of law enforce ment in their own community? Mr. Fllmon: Mr. Speaker, I neither agree with it nor support it, but it is the policy of the City of Winnipeg.

If the Member is interested in changing it, then he ought to be doing what is necessary, and that is to attempt to change the policy of the City of Winnipeg. Mr. Hlckes : Mr. Speaker, I hear that the Premier (Mr. Filmon) will not do much about it. I want to ask the First Minister, how much more evidence will it take to remove the artificial barriers erected to stop qualified minority candidates and to ensur e that community protection reflects the community it is protecting?

November 8, 19 90 LEG ISLATIV E ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA 941 Mr. Speaker : Order, please; order, please. The Hono urable Member's question seeks an opinion and is therefore out of order. Would the Honourable Member kindly rephrase his question, please? Mr. Hlckes : I would like to ask the Minister what his Government is doing to remove the artificial barriers erected to stop qualified minority candidates and ensur e that community protection reflec ts the community it is protecting. Mr. Fllmon : Mr. Speaker, our multicultural policy speaks very clearly.

Our affirmative action policy is being carried out and carried out better than it was under the former New Democratic administration. The City of Winnipeg's policies are the City of Winnipeg's policies. I neither agree with nor support them on this issue. The fact of the matter is that it is their policies that have to change. The Member for Point Douglas, I know he is new in this Chamber, I know he may be new to public life, but he should have that explained to him by Members on his side who have been around. * (1 400) MPIC Investment Goods and Services Tax Mr. Jlm Maloway (Eimwood) : Mr.

Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Finance. The MPIC Annual Report indicates that the corporation has investments with Ontario Hydro, Ontario, Quebec and the Government of Canada. Given that Ontario Hy dro has a history of involvement in nuclear power, Quebec Hydro is disrupting the lifestyle and the livelihood of many Native communities across that province, and the federal Governmen t is bringing in the hugely unpopular GST, will the Minister now consider the removal of the $45 million invested with the federal Government by M PlC in response to public protests against the federal gouge and screw tax?

Hon. Clayton Manness (Minis ter of Fina nce) : Mr. Speaker, seeing that this same question was posed in committee this morning, I am trying to determine the priorities as to how my Treasury Division tries to help the investment of MPIC surplus funding. I can indicate to the Member though that one has to be very cautious as to how they direct funding for the sake of short-term investing, because ultimately if you do not seek the highest return from the market what will happen is that your motorists will pay more. I guess that therefore is what the Member is advocating. Department of Finance Investment Policy Mr.

Jlm Maloway (Eimwood) : Mr. Speaker, the Member should know that investment vehicles are available that can provide an equal to or better than return in ethical investments. Now I wanted to ask the Minister, will he tell this House whether the Department of Finance has an investment policy which provides for the ethical and environmentally sound investment of Government and Crown corporation funds? Does he have such a policy? Hon. Clayton Manne ss (Min ister of Fi nance) : Mr.

Speaker, the Treasury Division of the Department of Finance is very, very careful in where it could invest the funds of the ratepayers of MPIC, the ratepayers of Manitoba Hydro, the ratepayers of Manitoba Telephone System. They are very, very particular. I can indicate to the Member opposite, if they were not and if those funds were put at risk, for instance, if the Treasury Division were to lend them to the NDP, they might be put at a horrible risk and ultimately there would be a tremendous loss.

That would be reflected in the rates that we would pay in our Man itoba Te lephone bills, our Autopac statements and indeed on Manitoba Hydro. Mr. Speaker, I will let the public judge as to whether the Treasury Division of the ministry of Finance has done an adequate job up to this point over the years in investing surplus cash. Mr. Malo way : Mr. Sp eaker, ev e ry pri vate investment house has a policy. I am very surprised that the Minister has admitted that his department does not have one.

I would like to know whether the Minister will now develop some sort of pol icy that will pr ovide guidelines for ethical investments giving special considerations to the elimination of investments in companies involved in liquor, military, tobacco or environmental infractions, which he well knows can provide returns at lea st as grea t as other investments. Mr. Manne ss : Mr. Speaker, I defy the Member to stand and indicate an area of unethical investment of surplus funds of the Crowns by the Treasury Division of the Department of Finance. If he has

942 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA November 8, 1990 cases which he thinks are unethical, then I ask him to state his case. I can indicate to him that if more investment were to go into short term-and I think he must be saying short-term paper-then ultimately the return we would receive from that type of investment would seriously beg in to fall. Therefore , what he is advocating obviously then is that the ratepayers of the Crowns which we are talking about should pay a higher rate. National Energy Board Trans Pipeline Ru ling Mr. James Carr (Cresce ntwood) : Mr.

Speaker, the National Energy Board has ruled that all people who are on the trans pipeline will have to pay a portion of the cost of extending that pipeline into the United States. This means in effect that consumers of Manitoba natural gas will have to subsidize users in the northeastern part of the United States. My question is to the Minister of Energy and Mines. Since Consumers Gas of Ontario estimates that each Ontario consumer will have to pay $10 to $12 a year more as a result of this ruling, what effect will it have on the consumers in Manitoba? Hon. Harold Neufeld (Min ister of Energy and Mine s): Mr.

Speaker, the National Energy Board has indeed rule d that they will not break with tradition and change the methodology of tolling for the increase in pipelines. The Industrial Gas Users Association went to the courts and asked them to instruct the National Energy Board to deal with this issue. The National Energy Board delved for 59 days and the day before yesterday came down with the decision that they would indeed not break with tradition and they would continue the methodology of tolling as they had before .

The Member for Crescentwood asked what the price to Manitoba consumers will be. lt will be approximately 1 percent of the cost today. Minister's Intervention Mr. James Carr (Crescentwood) : Mr. Speaker, so the Minister has told us that there will in fact be a cost to the consuming public in Manitoba. That being the case, why did the Minister, on behalf of the Government of Manitoba, not intervene at the meetings of the National Energy Board? Hon. Harold Neufeld (Minis ter of Energy and Mines) : Mr. Spea ker, two industrial firms from Manitoba intervened at the National Energy Board, Simplot and Seagram's.

Our Department, if they wished us to intervene as well it would have taken us 59 days together with consultants, together with lawyers. We were at the table with the interveners from Manitoba from time to time. We were never too far away from what the National Energy Board was doing. The National Energy Board was ruling on whether or not they should break with tradition in their methodology of tolling. -(i nte�ection)- Well let me tell the Member then that had we intervened in -(in terjection)- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Mr. Neufeld: If they wish an answer, Mr. Speaker, let them keep quiet.

Up until 1 993 the agreement of Inter-City Gas with the Western Gas Marketing board is for a bundling price of gas at the Alberta border, which saves us approximately 60 cents per- Mr. Carr: Mr. Speaker, we are not particularly interested in the brief of the industrial users. We are interested in why this Minister did not intervene on behalf of the consumers of Manitoba. The reason is-and the Premier is now reiterating it-it is because it would take 59 days of time. What is more important 59 days of time or the public interests of the people of Manitoba? Mr.

Neufeld: As I started to say, in 19 93 our bundling price with the agreement with Western Gas Marketing will cease. At that point in time we must have an arr angement for storage of gas. The arrange ment we have made for storage of gas for 19 93 is with a storage in Michigan. If we had intervened and asked the National Energy Board to change its tolling methodology we would probably be paying 60 cents per MCF more in 19 93 than we would ordinarily pay. Emergency Measures Organization Training Payment Policy Hon. Albert Drledger (Minis ter of Government Services) : Mr.

Speaker, yesterday I took a question as notice from the Member for Dauphin (Mr . Plohman) when he tabled a letter indicating that EMO was charging for training courses.

November 8, 19 90 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA 943 I want to indicate that EMO is not charging for training courses, the normal courses that are being held at Arnprior. Howeve r, additional courses had been slated, training courses within the province, one of them at Brandon. The letter that wen t out was not factual information. Certainly the costs that were referred to in there and the decisions had nothing to do with the election. I would like to -(i nte�ection)-The letter was notfactual, Mr. Speaker.

I want to indicate that due to the confusion that resulted from this I have instructed staff to inform the municipalities that there would be no. charge for this course and that for the future we will be consulting with them when we take and slate more training courses within the province. *

(1410) Mu ltlcu ltural Hiring Government Policy Mr. Conrad Santos (Broadway) : Mr. Speaker, I have a question to the First Minister. The law enforcement system in this province generally has shown again its negative, stereotype images of cultural minority groups by rejecting seven out of the nine applicants in the criminal justice program, all of the nine having passed the physical and written tests.

Will the First Minister plea se state to this Legislature and the multiethnic people of Manitoba what the policy of his Government is with respect to multicultural hiring in the recruitment, selection and training of personnel in the law enforcement and justice delivery system in this province? Hon. Gary Fllmon (Premi er): Mr. Speaker, we in this province do not hire law enforcement officers. We support the continued hiring, on an affirmative action basis, of people of all races, backgrounds, colours and creeds to all elements of public service, including law enforc ement. City of Winnipeg Mr.

Conrad Santos (Broadway) : Despite the municipal autonomy of the City of Winnipeg, it is a fact that the city is a subsystem of the province. Given that such is the case, will this provincial Governmen t stand idly by and let the elitist, isolationist, inwar d-looking policy of the city continue on by rejecting all kinds of initiatives to make a mirror-image representation of the cultural minority groups in this pr ovince in the law enforce ment and justice delivery system in this province? Hon. Gary Fllmon (Premi er): Mr.

Speaker, I have indicated that we neither support nor endorse the actions of the City of Winnipeg in this regard, but I urge the Member, who is a professor of political science, to read The City of Winnipeg Act and to look at the powers and authorities that are vested within the City of Winnipeg and the jurisdiction that it is granted.

If the Member expec ts that we can move in and change what is being done, he is going to have to propose amendments to The City of Winnipeg Act to strip it of its powers and authority, to strip it of its responsibilities and to take those, invest them within the Provi nce of Man itoba to take over the responsibilities that are curre ntly vested there. If that is his goal, there will be amendments to The City of Winnipeg Act coming forward and he is free to propose such amendments to that Act, Mr. Speaker. Mr.

Santos : My final supplementary is: Will the province use its financial and amending power to influence this policy and change it so that this becomes a truly re pr es entative provi nc e representing all kinds of minority groups in law enforce ment agencies? Mr. Fllmon : Mr. Speak er, what the Member opposite is suggesting is threat, coercion and blackmail. That is exactly what he is suggesting. Point of Order Mr. Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader) : Mr.

Speaker, the words that were used by the Member suggesting that the Member for Broadway was in any way, shape or form suggesting blackmail or threats of any kind are absolutely unparliamentary. If this Premier cannot find the time to get on the phone and talk to the mayor and raise these very legitimate concerns, to use the authority he does have as Premier to fight on behalf of the visible minority people of Winnipeg who are unable to get representation on the City of Winnipeg Police force, that is one thing, but he should not make accusations against the Member for Broadway, who is fighting for them. Hon.

Clayton Manness (Gove rnment House Leader) : On the same point of order, Mr. Speaker, the Opposition House Leader entirely misses the

944 LEG ISLAT IVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA November 8, 19 90 point. When a questioner asks us to use the financial powers of Government to try and force a junior level of Government to take certain actions, I wonder what other conclusion any logical, thinking person can take. To me it appears like a threat. Mr. Santos: I think it is against the rules of the House even for the Rrst Minister of this province to impute motives to a humble Member of this House . Mr. Speaker: Order, please . The Honour able Member did not have a point of order there.

On the point of order raised by the Honourable Opposition House Leader, he did not have a point of order. *** Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Rrst Minister, to finish his response . Mr. Fllmon: Mr. Speaker, the Members opposite are suggesting that we ought to, contrary to The City of Winnipeg Act, force the city by way of removing its funding-that is exactly what he said. I say to him that if he wants to know where the City of Winnipeg mayor is on this issue, or the chairman of the committee that governs the police, take a look at today's paper.

Both the mayor and the chair of the committee agree with the position which I have stated, which the Member is stating, yet nothing is being done. lt is not by way of threat, coercion or indeed removal of financing that you are going to change this issue, it is by way of influencing the decision making with the City of Winnipeg Police administration. Child and Family Services Service Cuts Ms. Becky Barrett (Wellington) : Mr.

Speaker, on October 17 in the House , the Minister of Family Services, in response to a question asking for a list of mandated services for childr en that would need to be cut as a result of this Government's inadequate funding, replied, ,here should be no reason to cut any services• even though there is an actual budget reduction of 1. 6 perce nt. Can the Minister of Family Services tell this House why Child and Family Services agencies are being forced to cut services such as residential care programs, services to adolescen ts, foster care pr ogr ams and child ren with special needs programs? Hon.

Harold Gllleshammer (Minis ter of Family Services}: Mr. Speaker, this Government provides a tremendous amount of money for social services in this pr ovince . We have made an ove rall commitment of taxpayers' dollars of nearly $48 million, a 15 percent increase to the Child and Family Services agencies. What we are asking the agencies to do is to look at their budgets, to work with our department, to set their priorities, not to cut services. I would also indicate to the Member that on a per-capita basis, this province spends more on child welfare than any other province in the country.

We are asking agencies to set priorities to look at what they are doing with the money that they are allotted. Funding Ms. Becky Barrett (Wellington}: Mr. Speaker, on March 7, 19 90, the then Minister of Family Services announced in the House a $2 million dollar deficit relief fund for immediate help to Child and Family Services agencies. Can the Minister of Family Services tell the House today if any of this "immediate relief• promised eight months ago has been paid to the Child and Family Services agencies? Hon.

Harold Gllleshammer (Minister of Fami ly Services}: The Minister of the Day did indicate in her words to the House and also in the press release to the agencies back in June that there would be an increase in fund ing for the Child and Family Services agencies, also that there was a $3 million dollar special expend itures fund. The department is currently working with the agencies to determine their priorities, and the funds will be flowing in due course . Ms. Barrett: Mr.

Speaker, since this money has not yet been given to Child and Family Services agencies, can the Minister of Family Services tell the House who is responsible for the debt payments on bank loans that Child and Family Services agencies have been forced to take out over the last eight months because these promised funds have not been forthcoming and services have had to be cut as a result? Mr. Gllleshamm er: Mr. Speak er, the agenc y boards are respo nsible for making numer ous decisions. At the present time they are working with the depar tment to set these priorities, and the

November 8, 19 90 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 945 funding will be forthcoming as the service and funding agree ments are signed. * (1 420) Child and Family Services Service Cuts Mr . Reg Alcock (Osb orne ): Mr. Speaker, repeatedly in this House this Minister of Family Services said there would be no service cuts. Yet, today we have confirmation of the very issue we have been raising in this House over and over and over again. There are serious cuts· to services to teenager s in this province. Mr.

Speaker, I want to table a report from the Health Action Centre that talks a little bit about some of these teenagers on the street. lt says that 52 percent of them have attempted suicide; 49 percent were sexually abused; 63 percent are at risk for contracting AIDS. This Minister sits by and says he is satisfied with the priorities that are being set. Now, will this Minister today commit to taking action to see that these policies are reversed and that these children receive service? Hon. Harold Gllleshammer (Minister of Family Services): Mr. Speaker, the agencies have a broad mandate.

In looki ng at these services that they provide, we are not talking about a protection issue. The protection of childr en, the protection of vulnerable families in this province is the highest priority that these agencies put forwar d. The agencies interpret their mandate very broadly and have a number of services. They are looking at the total package of services that they deliver and are setting their priorities. They are working in concert with the department to set these priorities at this time. Canada Assistance Plan Payments Mr. Reg Alcock (Osborne): Mr.

Speaker, this Minister spends more on media prevention than he does on prevention of illness in children. I want to table something, Mr. Speaker. lt is an analysis of CAP payments to this province that says that this province gets the same level of support as any other province, not twice the level, as this Minister claims. Once again he is following his Premier- Mr. Speaker: Order, please; order, please. The Honourable Member kindly put his question now, please. Mr. Alcock: Mr.

Speaker, will the Minister now stand in his place and correct the erroneous information he has placed on the record about the level of support that Child and Family Services receives in this province? Hon. Harold Gllleshammer (Min ister of Family Services) : Mr. Speaker, on the payments eligible from the Canada Assistance Plan, this province ranks No. 1 in spending per capita- An Honourable Member : That is not true. That is nottrue- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Mr.

Gllleshammer: The Honourable Finance Critic of the Liberal Party is acting out, but I will stand by my figures that the spending from the Canada Assistance Plan, per capita, Manitoba ranks No. 1 one in the country. Mr. Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has expired. MATTER OF URG ENT PUBLIC IMPOR TANCE Mr. Kevln Lamoureux (lnkster): Mr. Speaker, under Rule 27. (1), I would like to move a motion requesting a debate on a matter of urgent public importance. I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for River Heights (Mrs.

Carstairs), that, under Rule 27, the ordinary business of the House be set aside to discuss a matter of urgent public importance, namely how this Government is sending conflicting messages to the multicultural community thereby offending all Manitobans. Mr. Speaker: Before determining whether the motion meets the requirements of our Rule 27 the Honourable Member for lnkster will have five minutes to state his case for urgency of debate on this matter. Mr. Lamoureux : Mr.

Speaker, Beauchesne's cites two conditions that need to be present for a matter of urgent public importance: 1) that public interest would be best served by debating it today; 2) there is no ordinary opportunity which will allow the matter to be brought on early enough timing. First the public interest, as Acting Minister of Culture and Heritage, the Honourable Member for

946 LEG ISLATIVE ASS EMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA November 8, 199C Rossmere (Mr. Neufeld) has offe nded a grea t number of Manitobans. The Premier's (Mr. Filmon) inaction on the above matter has compounded the proble m. I have before me-si nce the Premier and this Gov ernment tend no t to listen to the Opposition-so me letters that I would like to make refe rence to. I will send you a copy of these letters, Mr. Speaker, so you can peruse them in making your own decision. The first one is a letter from Art Miki, who is a pr ominent Cana dian . I quote from his letter: Regardless of whether Mr.

Neufeld says that he speaks as an individual, he is a Member of your Government and perceived to be speaking in that capacity. I feel that your comments regarding Mr. Ne ufeld's statements were inadequate, and you missed the opportunity to reassure Manitobans of the Govern men t's co mmitment towards multicultural policy. Then, Mr. Speaker, I would go to MARL, which is the Manitoba Association of Rights and Liber ties and take a couple of quotes: lt seems that the multiculturalism is being attacked even before it becomes reality in our nation and province. One is given the impression that Mr.

Neu feld would empathize with the image of stereotype oriental, African, Indian people stomping on the back of the white business person. Lastly atthe end of the letter it requests: Lastly we call on Mr. Neufeld to make a full public apology. Mr. Speaker, we had sent to us a letter from a number of community leaders such as the president of the Folk Arts Council, members from MIC, president of the Jamaican assoc iation, the Portugese community, the black community, the Chinese association, East Indian community and so on.

The bottom line on this particular letter-and I quote: We as Manitobans and Canadians strongly urge you, as the Premier of Manitoba and as Leader of the Governmen t, along with your Cab inet colleagues to repudiate Mr. Neufeld's unfortunate and misinformed public statements. We further request that you immediately relieve him of any duties and respons ibilities in the area of multiculturalism within your Government. Mr. Speaker, the main Budget Debate is over. We are past the Throne Speech De bate. There are no relevant Bills or Estimates before us that will allow for the Premier (Mr .

Filmon), the Minister of Culture and He ritage (Mr s. Mitchelson) and the Acting Minister of Culture and Heritage to retract or clarify the Government policy. In conclus ion, Mr. Speaker, the people of Manitoba have a righ t to know wher e the Government is taking multiculturalism. lt is in the public's best interest that this matter be dealt with today. I would encou rage you to go over the documents that I have sent over to you and come up with a ruling. Thank you. Mr. Speaker: A spokesperson for the other two Parties will also have an opportunity to state their position respecting the urgency of this matter.

Hon. Clayton Man ness (Government House Leader) : Mr. Speaker, under the rules, we are given five minutes each to argue the urgency of setting aside the ordinary business of the House to engage ourselves in emergency debate. In all the years I have been her e and listening to five-min ute rationale as to why we should set aside the business and the arguments around urgency, never in the lifetime that I have been in this House have I heard a weaker argumen t, a weaker argum ent with respect to the urgency. -(i nterjection)- Mr. Speaker : Order. Order, please. Mr. Manness : Mr.

Speaker, this issue has been discussed on many, many occasions. The First Minister (Mr. Film on) has, over several occasions, been asked to present and provide the Gov ernmen t's policy with respec t to the ethnoculture community. He has stood in his place in response to every one of those questions and indicated the policy of the Government. * (1 430) Furthermore, the Minister of Energy and Mines (Mr . Neufeld) has given a full explanation as to his views on this matter. I say to you, as the individual who will sit in judgment, Mr. Speaker, what is the argument with respect to urgency ?

What is the ar gumen t with respect to the polic y of the Government that needs to be changed? The policy of the Government is profoundly clear in this matter. lt has been stated over and over again by the First Minister, Mr. Speaker. What can be clearer than the words from the First Minister? Therefore, what is the urgency? The Government's record stands. Again, the First Minister has given

chapter and verse of the accomplishments and some of the issues that have

November 8, 19 90 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA 947 been broughtforward and the programs with respect to the policies. I say to the Members opposite, stop playing politics with this issue. I say to the Members opposite, they have not established urgency. Mr. Speaker, I ask you to not accept their argument and that we move on to the regular business before us. Thank you. Mr. Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader) : Mr. Speaker, I am quite surprised atthe suggestions by the Government House Leader (Mr .

Manness) that it would not be an urgent situation when a Minister of the Crown-1 am not saying it is a difficulty with him stating his views, but here is a Minister of the Crown who has not withdrawn comments that are unacceptable to the vast majority of Manitobans who now, as of today-the urgency is as of today. That Minister has totally dismissed the very legitimate concerns, even refused to listen to the Government's own advisory committee, the Mani toba ln tercultural Coun cil. Th at is unprecedented. That is absolutely unpreceden ted. If the Government House Leader (Mr.

Manness) would care to consult with our rules, he would see that one of the main criteria for a motion of urgent public impor tance is that there are no other opportunities for this matter to be discussed. We have completed the Throne Speech Debate which would have allowed this matter to be discussed. We have completed the Budget De bate. Today would normally be a day in which we would consider Estimates for the Departments of Education and Finance where this matter could not be discussed.

I would submit that this matter can only be dealt with in the form of this particular motion and a debate which would allow all Members to debate a very serious situation. This is indeed unprecedented. If the Governmen t House Leader (Mr. Manness) thinks that it is not urgent, he should talk to the many people who wer e per sonally offe nded by the comments made by the Minister, a Minister of the Crown, comments that have not been disowned by the First Minister (Mr . Filmon).

If the Government House Leader talks about the First Minister having made the statements of this Government on multiculturalism clear, I would say perhaps he should listen to those statements, because not once has the First Minister disowned the comments made by the Minister of Energy and Mines (Mr. Neuf eld).

Not once , even today in Question Period, did he take the opportunity to say that he would direct that Minister to withdraw his comments and the insulting comments he has made about people who are conce rned about the comments that he made, the Manitoba lntercultural Council and many other multicultural groups. What is at issue here, Mr. Speaker, is whether this Legisla ture feels that the concerns of our multicultural community are of sufficient urgence that we should have this matter debated.

I would say that we as legislators should say nothing other than that this is a very serious matter. lt is, under our rules, in order and we should debate ittoday. Mr. Speaker : Order, plea se . Ther e ar e two conditions to be satisfied for this matter to proce ed. The Hon our able Mem ber for lnk ster (Mr. Lamoureaux) in accordance with Subrule 27 .(1 ) did provide the required notice of this matter of urgent public importance. ! thank the Honourable Members for their comments in offering advice on whether the motion is in order .

The 6th Edition of Beauchesne, Citation 389 indicates that in order for debate to proceed the matter raised must be so pressing that the public interest will suffer if it is not given immediate attention. Also in Beauchesne, Citation 390 states that •urgency of debate• does not apply to the matter itself but means that the ordinary opportunities provided by the rules of the House do not permit the subject to be brought on early enough and the public interest demands that discussion takes place immediately. In my opinion, the Honourable Member does have other opportunities available.

The Estimates of the Department of Culture, Heritage and Recreation are scheduled third after the Department of Education and Tr aining which are cur rently before the Committee of Supply. Also, the Member can raise a grievance any day that the motion is moved for the Committee of Supply or the Committee of Ways and Means to to meet and can at that time raise the matter he refers to in this motion. Therefore , I must rule the motion from the honourable Member for lnkster out of order. Mr. Lamoureux: Mr. Speaker, it is indeed with great regret that I have to challenge the ruling. Mr.

Speaker: The ruling of the Chair has been challe nged . Shall the ruling of the Chair be sustained? All those in favour, please say aye. Some Honourable Members : Aye . Mr. Speaker: All those opposed will please say nay.

948 LEG ISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MAN ITOBA November 8, 19 90 Some Honourable Member s: Nay. Mr. Speaker: In my opinion, the Yeas have it. Mr. Lamoureux: Yeas and Nays, please. Mr. Speaker: Call in the Mem bers. The House took recess. After Recess * (1 51 0) The House resumed at 3:1 0 p.m . Mr. Speaker: The question before the House is, shall the rule of the Chair be sustained?

A STANDING VOTE was taken, the result being as follows: YEAS Co nner y, Cummin gs, Dacquay, De rkac h, Downey, Driedger, Ducha rme, Ernst, Fil mon, Findlay, Gil lesh ammer, He lwe r, Laurendeau, Manness, McAJpin e , Mcln tosh , Mit chelson , Neuf eld, Orchar d, Penner, Prazn ik, Reimer, Render, Rose, Stefanson, Sveinson. NAYS Alcock, Ashton, Barrett, Carr, Carstairs, Cerilli, Cheema, Chomiak, Doer , Edwar ds, Evans (Brandon East), Evans (lnterlake), Gaudry, Hickes, Lamoureux, Lathlin, Maloway, Martindale, Reid, Santos, Storie, Wasylycia-Leis, Wowchuk. Mr. Clerk (WIIIIam Remnant) : Yeas 26, Nays 23. Mr.

Speaker: The ruling of the Chair has been sustained. ORDE RS OF THE DAY Hon. Clayton Man ness (Government House Leader) : Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Environmen t (Mr. Cummin gs) , that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Comm ittee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. Motion presented. MATTER OF GR IEVANCE Mr. Kevln Lamoureux (lnkster): Mr. Speaker, I stand today under the rules that provide each Member to state a grievance. Today, I would like to take that opportunity. Mr.

Speak er, we gave this Governmen t on numer ous occasions am ple opportunities to clarify some of the remarks that the Acting Minister of Culture and Heritage (Mr. Neufeld) has put on the record. I think we should go back to that Friday, October 26, when Mr. Neufeld said in Hansard, and lw ill quote- Mr. Speaker: Order, please; order, please. I would like to re mind the Honourable Member for lnkster (Mr. Lamoureux) that we refer to the Mem bers as Honour able Memb er or Honourable Min ister of Energy and Mines. Mr. Lamour eux: I am sorry, Mr. Speaker, my apologies- the Honourable Memb er for Rossmere (Mr.

Neufeld)-and I will quote what it is that has really caused so much commotion and so many problems that we have today. I quote: "I am against mu lticultur al fun ding, yes. Yes, I am agains t multicultural funding. If you-1 am entitled to an opinion. Mu lticultu ral fundi ng ends up as-the WASPS, if you like, are funding everybody else. They do not get funded." Mr. Speaker, this is a statement, whether lt was a slip of the tongue or intentional, that has been left on the records through Hansard.

To say that it is coming from one person or it is one Honourable Mem ber's opinion does not justify the Government taking the stand that it has taken because this is not just a Minister. This is the Minister that is the Acting Minister for Culture and Heritage (Mr. Neufeld) . If we have for some reasons the Honourable Member for River East (Mrs. Mitchelson) who is ill or is unable to perform her duties, this is the individual who would take the place of the Minister. Mr. Speaker, this is really what has caused a lot of problems, not only in terms of us as the Opposition, but the commu nities.

That is really where I see a big difference from last week to this week, is the fact that we are not asking the Government to look at what we in the Opposition Party are necessarily saying because we have done that in the past. As I try to point out, we tried to get the Acting Minister to stand up and apologize for his remarks. We then tried to get the Premier (Mr. Filmo

n) to stand in his place and to retract or at least say where he stands on the issue. lt is not good enough for the Premi er to stand in his place and say that we believe in multiculturalism . We belie ve in grants to the different eth nic comm unities and cu lture and he ritage

November 8, 19 90 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MANI TOBA 949 organizations. The First Minister (Mr. Filmon), as the Fi rst Mini ster, has a respon sibilit y and that responsibility, in part, is to ensure that those that he has appoi nted to Cabinet fulf ill the Cabinet decisions that fo llo w the di recti on that the Governmen t has put Manitoba in terms of being put on course. There was a lot of deviation from what the Government is saying about multiculturalism and what the Acti ng Minis te r is saying for mul ticultura lism .

Even though we provided the opportu nity for the Minis ter to stand up and apologize, the Premi er to stand up and apologize , they chose to ignore our request. They chose to ignore what it is that the communities felt was the right thing to ask for, that we asked for, and that was for an apology. Now, Mr. Speaker, it is at a point in which we need more than an apology. I think we need more than a public apology. I believe that the Acting Minister of Culture and Heritage owes it to Manitobans to resign as the Acting Mini ster and some would even argue that he should resign as a Cabi net Minister. Mr.

Speaker, I bel ieve that the Mem ber for Rossm ere (Mr. Neufeld) would do his Governmen t a service if he was to seriously think about resigning, at the very least, as the Acting Minister of Culture and Heritage. I, for the life of me, cannot see how the Acting Minister can go around to a cultural event, when we have so mu ch opposition to the statements and the comments made by the Acting Minister. Mr. Speaker, it is just not myself as I have pointed out or the New Democratic Party that is talking about the Minister resigning or requesting an apology.

Over the past couple of days, I have received a few letters in particular that have really disturbed myself along with my colleagues in the Liberal Party. * (1 520) I would like to go through those letters, Mr.

Speaker, because these are from prom inen t individuals in Canada, in Manitoba, who believe in multiculturalism ; who believe in Canada, our nation being a mosaic rather than a melting pot; who see that it is necessary to ensure we have grants going out to our commu nities; who have a good feeling in terms of what direction this Government should be going in terms of a mu lticultural policy, and have heard and are ve ry disapp oi nted in this Governme nt's reaction to the Acting Minis ter's comments. I would like to cite first-and what I will do, Mr.

Speaker, is table the three letters if I can get one of the Pages, and this way all of my colleagues throughout the Chamber can maybe go through these letters, because I am only going to point out six or seven quotes from the three letters. I ask you to read over the letters and when you are reading over these letters, I will suggest to you that these are not individuals who are out there for political gain, that many of these individuals who have signed these letters are Conservatives, are liberals, are New Dem ocrats, are really and truly apolitical.

That is why I think it is im portant that the Gov ernmen t, espec ially the backbenchers, because they are not necessarily in the inner Cabinet, that it is im portant they read these letters, and they look at the people who have signed them. I must say from the onset that these are not the only individuals that I have heard from. There are other individuals who have brought this issue through the telephone, in which I felt they were very serious, and felt that they were slighted by the comm ents and by the Governm ent not trying to repudiate what the Acting Minister has said.

I do want to go on to the letters themselves. The first one that I would like to quote from is Art Miki, who as I said during my five-m inute introduction for the Matter of Urgent Public Im portance, was a very prom inen t Canadian who has fought for Canadian-Japanes e rights for a num ber of years. I would like to quote just three areas from this letter. lt is addressed to the Premier of this province, and it is cc'd to Mr. Ne ufeld an d Bonnie Mitchelson-1 am sorry, Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Cu ltur e and He ritage and the Mani tob a lntercultural Council.

So no doubt they have read this letter, and I am sure after hearing my grievance that, at least I hope, other people will read this letter because I believe it says a lot. The three parts, the opening line, addressed again to the Premie r is, .. . that I was extremely disappointed in your response to the Honourable Minister's comments re garding multicultural groups and funding.

He goes on to say that the Japanese-Canadian com mu nity has fifth-generation memb ers and most of us have never thought ourselves to be part of an imm igrant group to which Mini ster Neufeld sugges ts that if you cannot be Canadian first, damn it, do not come to this country. Mr. Speaker, it is a very valid point. Mr. Miki has been here for five generations. I believe he, himself,

950 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA November 8, 19 90 has been here for three generations, and whether you have been here for five gener ations or you have been here for three years, once you have your Canadian citizenship, you are just as much a Canadian as anyone else in the Province of Manitoba or indeed the country. (Madam Deputy Speaker in the Chair) A great many people take a lot of pride, and I would argue all people take a lot of pride in being Canadian. I have been to numerous citizenship courts where I have seen the Honour able Ju dge Willcock swearing in many new citizens.

I say, Madam Deputy Speaker, that they take a great amount of pride of being sworn in as Canadian citizens, and I am sure that they would like to be perceived as Canadians. The statements that the Acting Minister had put on the record says otherwise.

I am sure thatto those new Canadians, those who are seeking citizenship, to those who have been here for five years or one gener ation to five generations, whatever it might be, are all disappointed in the remarks, in that sense, from the Acting Minister of Culture and Heritage. lt goes on and I will quote, I made reference to it as I say during the MUPI and that is, and I quote, regardless of whether the Acting Minister says that he speaks as an individual, he is a Member of your Government and perc eives to be speaking in that capacity. I feel that your comments regarding Mr.

Neufeld's statements were inadequate. You missed the oppor tunity to reassur e Manitobans of the Government's commitment towards a multicultural policy. Madam Deputy Speaker, this points out a very valid point, and that point is that the Acting Minister is a Member of the Cabinet. A Member of the Cabinet does have obligations, and a part of those obligations is to ensure that Government policy is in fact being implemented. To go out and speak against Government policy as a Member of the Cabinet, as some and including myself would argue, is morally wrong.

An Honourable Member: Kevin, is this a full 40, or are you going to recycle the same thing? Mr. Lamoureux: You know, the Minister of Finance (Mr. Mann es

s) has allu ded during his own comments in response to my opening arguments that it was not a serious issue. I beg to differ with the Minister of Finance. I think if the Minister of Finance went out and talked to some of the leaders of the ethnocultural communities, he will find that he is on the wrong side on this issue. If the Minister of Finance wanted to do Manitobans a service, I think he would be best to talk to the Acting Minister of Culture and Heritage and ask the Acting Minister to seriously consider resigning his position.

Madam Deputy Speaker, it is a very serious issue, and I do not understand why the Minister of Finance seems to treat it so very lightly. Madam Deputy Speaker, another letter that I have tabled and again encour age the Members to read over is a letter from the Manitoba Association for Rights and Liberties. I want to quote from the letter once ag ain, and it rea ds: "lt se ems that multiculturalism is being attacked even before it becomes reality in our nation and province." -a very fair assessment if you take a look at what has happened over the past couple of weeks.

I can understand where and why they would get that type of an impression. lt goes further down: "One is given the impression that the Minister would empathize with the image of stereotyped Oriental, African and Indian people stomping on the back of the white business person." This does point out once agai n that the Hon ourable Minister of Energy and Mines (Mr. Neufeld) has no real understanding of what benefits are deri ved through immigration through all communities in the province. All communities of this province , Madam Deputy Speaker , pay taxes.

If you are going to be giving out gr ants, all of the communities are deserving of the grants. To make a statement it appears that the WASPs are funding other ethnic groups is unacceptable. lt goes further, Madam Deputy Speaker, to read that: "The comments also suggest that Canada is in his view,"-that of course being the Acting Minister of Culture and Heritage (Mr.

Neufeld)-"a white anglo-saxon Protestant country and that all other cultures, races and religions should not be publicly supported." * (15 30) Madam Deputy Speaker, this point here further down in the letter, and it reads: "As a person in a position of public trust there is a responsibility to reduce prejudice and discrimination in society, not to promote it." This is something that all elected officials should be taking very seriously, that as elected offi cials we represent ridings. Our constituents are from all ethnic backgrounds, and it

November 8, 19 90 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA 951 is our responsibility to promote tolerance in our society, to discourage discrimination. I ask you, Madam De puty Speaker, if this is what the actions of this Government as a whole is doing, I would have a very hard time, if I was in the Gov ernmen t be nches, to argue against that particular point. Hopef ully during, whether it is the Culture and He ritage Estimates or interim, or whatever it might be, the Minister, the Acting Minister and the Premier (Mr.

Filmon) and hopefully others, other Members of the governing Party will state what it is that they feel. Lastly, Madam Dep uty Speaker, on this particular letter they request, and I will quote directly from it, lastly we call on the Acting Minister to make a full public apology. I do not believe that the Manitoba Association of Rights and Liberties is asking for that much. What they are asking for as a bottom line is that the Acting Minister give a public apology.

I be lieve that the Ac ting Minister owes that to Manitobans and the longer he puts it off, the longer the wrong message is going to be sent to our ethnic co mmun ities-! should actually say to all Manitobans because we are all ethnics, of course .

Madam Deputy Speaker, the last letter is one in which the Acting Minister made reference to, and that is a letter in which the different ethnic leaders had circulated amongst themselves to show that in the community, the community that this particular Acting Minister is supposed to be supporting, is saying about the Acting Minister, and it is not positive, Madam Depu ty Speaker. I do believe that had the Acting Minister apologized last week, or shortly after making the remarks, that we would never have received any of these letters.

The biggest thing about this letter is that it is not coming from an individual, per se; these are people who are leaders in their respective communities. These are people who, in one or two days, got together to sign this letter showing that they support the intent of this letter. Instead of going through the whole letter, and I am sure of all the letters, all of them I would encourage you to read, but this one is especially important. What I want to do is read the last paragraph because the last paragraph is really what these people are trying to say to the Government of the Day.

I will quote from it, and it goes: "We, as Manitobans and Canadians, strongly urge you as the Premier of Manitoba and as leader of the Governmen t, along with your Cabinet colleagues, to repudia te the Acting Minister's unfortunate and misinformed public statements. We further request that you immediately relieve him of any duties and responsibilities in the area of multiculturalism within your Government." This not only asks of the Premier, it also asks of the Cabinet Ministers.

So even though the Premier himself does not want to stand up and apologize, maybe some of the Acting Ministers or the Minister of Energy and Mines' other colleagues will stand up and apologize for the lack of comments or the lack of the Premier to address this particular issue. I would encour age the Acting Ministers or the Ministers or the Cabinet to do just that, to do just what it is that these individuals request, and I will name off some of the organizations that signed these letters.

Ma dam Depu ty Speaker -a lmo st 50 perce nt-the chairperson of MIC signed this letter, the Vietnamese Community Rep signed this letter; the President of the Canadian Polish Congress-! had the pleasure of attending just a short while ago at the Polish Press Community and the Premier was there himseH. He had an excellent opportunity at that time. An Honourable Member: You left in a huff, remember? Mr. Lamoureux: No, I did not leave . -(i nterjection) This is so mewh at sensitive to the Government-and it should be sensitive to the Government. The Pakistani Commu nity Representative on MIC signed this.

Joseph Yuen, one of the city councillors, signed this letter.

The Ukrainian Community Representative, President of the Manitoba Ethnocultural Youth Community, the past chair of MIC, Dauphin Parkland Region Rep from MI C, the Vice-Pr esident of the Manitoba Japane se Canadian Cultural Centre or the Japanese Community Rep, the Ir ish Association of Manitoba, the Treasurer of the Greek Community Rep, the President of the Ghanaian Union of Manitoba, the East Indian Community Rep, Chinese Benevolent Association, the Black Community Rep, the Portuguese Community, the President of the Jam aican Association of Manitoba, President of the Folk Arts Council. -{i nterjection)- The Minister of Highways {Mr.

Driedger) says, is it going to take long? I am sure with a couple more days we could have had hundreds of thousands of signatures.

952 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA November 8, 19 90 An Honourable Member : Millions. Mr. Lamour eux: Well, the Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness) says millions. I am sure if there was enough time, that we would likely get over a million signatures. There is not much more than a million people in Manitoba, and really, Madam Deputy Speaker, that is who this Government has offended, not only the leaders of these communities, because these are community repr esentatives that represent thousands of people. These are not just normal signatures.

If we were wanting to allow time and circulate a petition throughout the province, I am sure we would probably get past that million in signatures, that you would find four year olds or whatever age they might be. lt is very serious that we do have a large number of people who are coming out and condemning what this Gove rnmen t is do ing, but it does not necesssarily surprise me that the Acting Minister made the comments that he made, and the reason why it does not really surprise me is· because in 1 988, after the provincial election, what is one of the first things this Tory minority Government does? lt decides in its "wisdom" to take away the funding powers of MIC and create a political arm known as the Manitoba Grants Advisory Committee, MGAC. * (1 540) One has to ask the question, why did they feel it was necessary to do that?

I am convinced the reason why they did that is because they do not have trust, that they have to have a hands-on approach to every thing. If they cannot get their hands into it, they are scared. They feel they are going to lose out. We have seen that time after time, and that is in part why we introduced Bill 9. I did get an opportunity to speak to Bill 9, but I should highlight what it is that Bill 9 does. lt takes away the funding authority from MGAC or the Manitoba Grants Advisory Committee, and it gives it back to MI C.

The reason why that is so important is because MIC is made up of people who are elected from all the different ethnic communities, and who knows better what the community needs than the people who are working in the community? The Government still had input. They could still appoint members to MIC. Mind you, I question why they would make those appointments after the elections through MIC, and I even have to question one of the appointments thatthey made. Remember the appointment of Grant Russell? -(i nterjection)- The Minister of Highways (Mr. Driedger) is a fine individual.

Madam Depu ty Speaker, we have seen the reason why this Government is neglecting our multicultural fabric in the Province of Manitoba. We have a Government that still chooses to appoint the presiding officer, we have a Government that still chooses to hire the executive directors. Those are two aspects of the Bill. H they disagree entirely, and by the remarks that the Government has put on the record, obviously they disagree, and we will have to wait for a Liberal administration, hopefully in four years or a shorter time, to be able to rectify that . particular problem.

If they disagree with us on that, then why not allow MIC to elect their own presiding officer? Why not allo w them to do their own hiring? I do not understand why it is that this Government is so scared of MIC. They talk about multicultural policy. The Minister of Culture and He ritage (Mrs. Mitchelson) stands up on numerous occasions and points to a book or to a brochure and says this is multicultural policy, Madam Deputy Speaker.

The multicultural policy, even though they might have it in writing in such a manner that they can go around and circulate it to all of the communities, is not really what the Government's real and true, and some would say hidden, agenda is when it comes to multiculturalism in this province. I think that the Acting Minister's (Mr. Neufeld) comments are shared by a large number of the Conservative Caucus. I believe that is the reason why you do not have Ministers or the Premier (Mr. Film on) standing up to repudiate what it is the Acting Minister is saying.

I did want to make a few comments regarding some of the other aspects of multiculturalism and that, of course, is some of the appointments that we have seen in the last little while. We have seen the appointment of a defeated candidate. I must say, Mr. Langtry is a ve ry competent man. I have no hesitation in saying Mr. Langtry is a very competent individual. I would argue that Mr. Langtry would have done very well under competition.

Madam De puty Speaker, the Government or many of the Conservative Caucus Members have approached me and said, well, patronage is reality, that if we were in the same situation we would do the same type of patronage. Well, I think it is not fair to prejudge. If we take a look at the whole question

November 8, 19 90 LEG ISLAT IVE ASSEMBLY OF MA NI TOBA 953 of patronage and what this Government is doing in respect to patronage, I think the Government could justify, to some degree, the need to have people who think along the same lines in many different positions in the Government. Madam Deputy Speaker, we are talking about the Department of Multiculturalism, and the size of the multicultural outreach office, and the secretariat's office and the appointments made to those offices. lt is not as much to question the crede ntials of the individuals who have been recently appointed. That is not the point.

What we ar e trying to get across to this Government is, by making appointments as a policy analyst or making an appointment as the chair of MGAC or the Manitoba Grants Advisory Committee, strictly on being a Conservative-a nd the Minister of Culture and Heritage (Mrs. Mitchelson) says, well, the Member for lnkster (Mr. Lamoureux) should be aware that there are many good Conservatives that are qualified that would do a fine job. No doubt that is probably a fair statement to make.

Madam Deputy Speaker, there is equally, and I would maybe even suggest more Liberals or New Democrats, and I would go further and say that there are many apolitical people that would do a fantastic job. What is it that this Government is saying to the multicultural committee by making appointments at the level of policy analysis, at the level of a chairperson of MGAC, when they are just appointing people that are PC cardholders.

What they are tellin g many leaders of all diffe rent ethnic organizations is that if you do not have a PC card, or if you do not participate in our Party in some capacity, that you are not going to be able to stand a chance in getting an appointment or being hired with this Government. Madam De puty Speaker, that is wher e the tragedy lies, that had the positions, or some of the positions-if the Minister wants to argue that yes we need some that are thinking along the same lines, sure, but you do not have to politicize the whole department. You can open for competition.

You can allow for others, whether they are Conservative, Liberal, PC, apolitical, to compete for the position, and let the best person win. In our administration or our policy analysis, or our chairs of organizations, their first qualification should be their credentials, not if they have a PC card or if they do not have a PC card. We have a program right here in the Legislature, and that is our Internship Program. When we sit down and we look at the students we do not ask are you a PC or a Liberal or NDP.

There are individuals that can serve whether it is as an intern, and interns have access to confidential documents, that if they are not a Liberal, they cannot be an intern for us. What is most important is that these individuals perform the job that they are hired to do.

If you start limiting your applications, if you are accepting applications, to one relatively small segment in the Conservative Party of the population, you are not giving the opportunity to many other Manitobans that are just as worthy of being able to compete for those positions. * (1 550) This is really why we find that the Government is sending mixed messages to the ethnocultural community is on one hand you have a Minister or an Acting Minister saying one thing about funding, one thing about one group or one ethnic group, and you have the Premier (Mr.

Filmon)-three minutes left-who is not willing to jump and say, that the Minister or the Acting Minister has made a mistake, that the Acting Minister should apologize. As I mentioned at the outset, had the Acting Minister stood in his place to apologiz e-the Minister of Northern Affairs (Mr. Downey) stood in his pl ace and apolo gized for his commen ts regarding Northerners in terms of they do not know how to vote-lt was very gracious of the Minister to stand up and apologize- An Honourable Member : Good man. Mr. Lamoureux: -the Minister of Highways (Mr. Driedger) is correct, it was awfully good of him to do it.

He was a good man for doing just that. Why will the Acting Minister of Culture and Heritage not stand in his place and apologize? Some Members believe that, Madam Deputy Speaker, I should apologize for listing three individuals. I did not say that these individuals were not worthy of the position, what I said is that the positions should have been open for competition. If they cannot understand that then that is their problem, it is not mine.

Madam Deputy Speaker, to conclude, because my light is flashing, I do want to say that it is somewhat sad to see that the Government has chosen not to retract or apologize or say something

954 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA November 8, 19 90 to the ethnic cultural communities that are asking for the Government to say something, respond to the letters, respond to the demands of all Manitobans. Thank you for the opportunity to speak. Mr.

Conrad Santos (Broadway) : With a heavy heart, I have to use my grievance privilege in the House at this opportunity.lt is Voltaire, I think, who said when speaking about the freedom of the individual person to expr ess his bel ief, "I may disagree with what you say, but I will defend until death your right to say it.• To the individual person by the name of Harold Neufeld, I say I will defend until death .••• Point of Order Madam Deputy Speaker: The Honour able Minister of Native and Northern Affairs, on a point of order. Hon.

James Downey (Deputy Government House Leader): Madam Speak er, it is only appropriate that the Honourable Member should refer to another Honourable Member, not by name, but either by constituency and/or by as "Honour able Member.· Madam Deputy Speaker: The Honour able Minister of Native and Northern Affairs indeed does have a point of order. Would the Honourable Member for Broadway (Mr. Santos) please refe r to the Members in the House as "Ho nourable Members for• and name their constituency? Thank you. *** Mr.

Santos: I am trying to distinguish between the individual person and the official who is a Cabinet Minister of the Crown. To the individual person I say •t will defend until death your right to say your belief; following Voltaire, but to the Crown Minister, the Honour able Minister of Mines and Energy (Mr. Neufeld), I say it is the height of indiscretion to utter such a statement like that, especially in the forum of this Legislature .

It is especially so as he has been placed in charge, Acting Minister of Multiculturalism, to utter a statement that is taken and perceived by his constituents as an insult to them, rather than supportive of their interests. Madam Deputy Speaker, let me go to the broader issue of how public service organizations, in the midst of multi-ethnic society, can be represe ntative of and responsive to and become an effective service fulfilling agency of the people that they serve .

In every society, including a democratic society like ours, there always is a scarcity of material things, of resources and values, so that most people naturally strive to mobilize in order to promote their personal , their group, their organizational collective interests. In this, individual and group, we struggle for private benefits; conflicts necessarily arise. In order to manage and resolve such conflicts, society has evolved cer tain norma tive rules and correspon ding mechanisms to enforce such rules.

The routinization and institutionalization of these rules in our society has transformed the society of human beings into what is now an institutionally structured orde r of political and burea ucra tic authority personified as the Crown, as the State, sustained by a claim to the exclusive illegitimate use of force under a regime of positive loss.

The Crown, the Government, the State has an exclusive agent, and this is the mechanism of public ser vice institutions and positions that tangibly manifests itself as established bureaucracy in our society, whose reason for existence is to serve, never to dominate, the public. However, having a direct access to the exclusive illegitimate use of force , those public functionaries, both elected and appointed, are almost always under the very human temptation and tendency towards lording it over the citizens.

People in positions of public authority, both elected and appointed, are human beings that have this very worldly tendency-es pecially so if they are alr eady es tablished as the major ity Government-toward a tendency to be arrogant. * (1 600) Indeed, one of the foremost problems of our democratic society, not only in this country but in many countries in the world, is how to protect the individual citizens from the boastful egotism of those who are elected or appointed to public positions of power and respon sibil ity. Bureauc ra tic governmental units are structures institutionalized, created and established.

They are designed to be service-fulfi lling means to serve the cause of peace and good government, to serve the interests and promote the general well-being of all the people, but at the same time governmental institutions and positions could also be misused as an instrument to oppr ess or exploit or exclude some disliked segments of the population in society.

November 8, 19 90 LEG ISLAT IVE ASSE MBLY OF MAN ITOBA 955 To confo und and fur ther compl icate this continuing political struggle for advantages, benefits among individuals, groups and organizations, we often have, as we now have in many countries of the world including our own, the model of the multiethnic society of different groups of people with national origins of varying nature, different cultures, different langu ages, dif fe rent belie fs and dif fe re nt expectations.

Each group tends to be different from every other group, but to be different does not imply that one is subordinate or inferior, and yet in many multi-ethnic societies as it has historically emerged, there is a natural domination/subjection type of relationship that has gradually crystallized and become legitimized between some historically dominant elite core groups which, after taking control of the institutional decisional structures, begin to define and control all influential roles and positions in such a subtle manner, cloaked with legitimacy, as to be able to disadvantage, to exclude, exploit members of some minority groups in society.

The members of such dominant elite core groups, consisting of the inner elites and the outer elites, are simply exchanging roles according to the process of circulation of el ites. They beco me the institutionalized gatekeepers in determining access to the various professions, occupations, positions and roles in the political, social and economic structures of society.

The dominant group members under the veils of traditional, institutionalized legitimacy also begin to lay down cer tain reaso nable and sometimes arbitrary rules for qualification or certification as to who can or who can not en ter into ce rtain professions, occupations or lines of work. Some of our political, social and econ omic institutions had emerged certain well- established pr actices and pro cedures tha t unwittingly, uninten tionally, but systema tically are discriminating in the most subtle way against disorganized minorities who lack in our political, economic and other resources.

Desp ite our democratic ideals for equality of oppor tunity, the fact of the matter is that the decisional structures in our society, both in the public and in the private sectors, operate in such a way as to ignore or even superficially ameliorate these institutionally-em bedde d , sub tle discriminatory practices against Native peoples, against visible minorities, against teen-age workers, against women, against handicapped per sons, against senior citizens, against newly- arrived immigrants, even against fully naturalized Canadian citizens.

Such a factual, empirical, observable situation is certainly violative of the provision of the Universal Decl aration of Human Rights, which states: All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights. (French version) (Ukrainia n spoken) (Italian spoken) (English) All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights. (Spanish spoken) (Fi lipino spoken) (English) If there is one impor tant distinction of the individual as distinguished from other living beings and things, I say that it is human dignity. Human dignity consists of the integrity of the individual person.

Integrity implies that there is an inherent, natural freedom to make a choice. lt also includes the legitimate, constitutional recognition of their political and civil rights, the right to express one's opinion, the right to assembly, the right even to run for public position which is guaranteed in our Charter of Rights and Freedom.

In addition, there are also the economic and social rights of citizens, the right to have a decen t level of livelihood, the right to food and shelter, the right to health care , the right to education. lt is for the purpose that Government is instituted among man in order that we may be able to uphold and sustain this level of dignity of the individual person. Madam Deputy Speaker, public service organizations exist as some systems of the total human society in order to service human well-being, human welfare, public order, peace and security.

Indeed, the established public bureaucracy that we have established in our society consists of two branches : the established burea ucracy that is supposed to provide the necessary and essential public services, as well as the law enforce ment

956 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA November 8, 19 90 agency that is necessary to protect, to give security and public peace and order. As the arms of the sovereign, they have direct access, as I have said, to build legitimate use of force. For example, if the taxing authorities would like to collect the tax, they can sequester your property, and they can do it legitimately and legally because that is the legitimate excl usive use of force .

But no other private organization can sequester a private person's property because that is the only prerogative exclusively monopolized by the agents of the state or of the Crown. * (1 61 0) Public service organizations are just mechanisms either to promote the well-b eing, peace , order and good Governmen t of all the peop le , but this institutionalized position of power, authority and responsibility can and sometimes are misused as instruments of coe rcion to oppr ess, exploit or exclude some segments of the population.

Madam Deputy Speaker, how can we set a good exam ple of be ing the true represe ntative-r espon sib le , cre dible, com passio nate, service-fulfi lling model of Government? The only way Governments, including our own, can become a true mirror image of its population is to make its own institutions full of representatives of the population mix of the people in that community. lt is the public service representativeness that is a precondition to public service responsiveness.

If the population mix in the community, in the province or in the country or in society has changed as it has obviously changed in the immediate past, the com position of the Govern ment and the per sonnel in the publ ic se rvic e must corresp ondingly change in order to reflect the type of population that they are supposed to serve .

Unle ss the public se rvi ce truly becomes represe ntative of the popu lation mix in the com mun ity, the public service can hardly understand or respond to the need of the very segmen ts of its popula tion. lt is this lack of representativeness that leads to unresponsiveness, and it is unresponsiveness of Government that leads to the loss of their credibility and the demise of Govern ments in political power. Credibility is the basis of public confidence in Government. Public confide nce flourishes whe never and wher ever there is true equality of opportunity.

Equality of opportunity is not simple empty rhetoric. lt is one of the brightest jewels in the crown of Canada. Equality of opportunity is an observable social condition where every individual human being has a right to become what he could possibly become on the basis of his natural talents, abilities and sk ills without any artificial , attitudinal, institutional or other barriers in society. The public service needs the confidence of the people. The confidence of the people in their own Government can only be enhanced whenever the public service institutions shall serve them, like the population they serve .

Then they become humane agencies appeal ing to both human reason and sen timents, satisfy ing the human heart with compassion and understanding, assisting the good and resisting the wrong, and delivering the weak from the impositions of the strong. How can the public service institutions become ser vice- fu lfilling agencies in the midst of our society? Public service institutions can become service-fulfi lling agencies of the people that they serve when they are run by people who are morally upright human beings. The spring cannot rise higher than its source .

No Governmental agency can do any better than the people who run the Governmental machinery. lt is the seed of moral integrity that is implanted in a person that makes him truthful when even it will be to his own disadvantage. 1t is moral integrity that gives him the courage to be fair to the adversary and fair even to the opposition. lt is moral courage which makes people honest in their private lives, in their business life, most importantly in their public life. lt is moral integrity which consists in the courage to do one's public duty with a high sense of responsibility. Our society is not a perfect society.

We are, yet compared to other civilized nations, one of the most advanced societies in terms of freedom, in terms of services, in terms of security and peace, in terms of Government offer to its own people. -(i nterjection)- Madam Deputy Speaker: Order, please; order, please. I am experiencing some difficulty listening to this interesting debate, and I would appreciate the co-operation of the Members of the House. Mr. Santos: People who want to spend their lives in service of society sometimes face a real moral dilemma. Should they be value neutral or should they express value commitment?

If the intellectual academic person seeks the truth he cannot escape

November 8, 19 90 LEGISLA TIV E ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA 957 being a critic of the status quo and a constant scrutinizer of public policies. The academic intellectual is not only creating outputs of knowledge, skills and art and symbols, he must also be applying and generalizing this in terms ofthe moral and ethical standard of hum an conduct, always ques ti oning the current in stitutional arrangement and present practices in our society.

Speaking of intellectuals, le wis Coser described them as •men who never seem satisfied with things as they are" and •consider them selves special custodians of abstract ideas like reason and justice and truth, jealous guardians of moral· standards that are too often ignored in the marketplaces and the houses of power." As Whitelaw Reid, one time librarian of the U.S.

House of Representatives and later Min ister of the United States to France , asserted in a speech-he said in 1 873: "We may set it down as, within certain needful and obvious lim itations, the very foremost function of the scholar in politics is to oppose the established." Seymour Upset suggests that the underlying reason for this tendency is that any kind of status quo em bodies rigidities and dogmatism which it is the inescapable, inalienable right of the individual to attack, whether from the standpoint of moving back to traditional values, or forward to the achievement of true equalitarian dreams.

Whether within or outside of partisan politics, the appropriate function for the reformer is to be the cons cienc e of soci ety by cons tantly an d constructively criticizing established public policy. Madam Deputy Speaker, I empha size the word •constructively". We cannot just try to tear down what society had already built, what we can do is try to improve constructively the established practices, procedures and institutions in our society. The reformer often plays the role of a severe critic of society of which he is a part, often engaging in the task of political and social reform .

Being a critic of established policies and the present practices seem s to be a more appropriate or important role for the academic intellectual which Hans Morgenthau terms is "at best a political practitioner and at worst an ideologue of social action." • (1 620) (Mr.

Speaker in the Chair) Before Henry Kissinger became President Ni xon's advisor on for eign policy Kis singer obse rved tha t for "int ell ectu als out side the admin istrative ma chine the protest has often become an end in itself" because the momen t an intell ectual surrenders his proper role as the scrutinizer of the status quo, he ceases to be an agent of social change, he becom es a mere apologist for the Establishment. The activist academic intellectual is the vanguard of all reformers. As such, he bears the responsibility of knowl edge.

In the social context, to bear knowledge is to have the responsibil ity for social action because it is action that truly reforms society.

As Senator Richard Stanbury pointed out in the Harrison Hot Springs Conference of 19 69, "The forces of reform have but a limited time to make themse lves relevant or else they face the danger of being sum marily swept away by disillusioned and rebellious groups im patient for action in today's un ju st society." Unles s the est ablis he d Government, by eo-option, absorbs all the elemen ts in society in a systematic, peaceful and orderly way, obviously there would be disruptions in society not to our own liking. The domi nant groups in society, Mr.

Speaker, under the veil of trad itional and institu tional legitim acy are sometimes laying down rules that are discrim inatory. Rules for qualifying, or certifying as to who can, or who cannot, do certain lines of profession, occupation or line of work. let me be specific. A few years ago, as late as 19 81 , I was a participant in an annual meeting of the Canadian Congress for the Prevention of Crime, held at the Winni peg Convention Centre.

At the time there was a requirement in the Police Department in the city that you must have a height of 5 ft. 10 in., and this was a mand atory , non-w aiv able qual ification requirement in order that you can become a member of that department.

By that year, 19 81 , we already had a lot of visible minority groups in our society, groups of people who, by reason of their biological, ethnic or racial endowment are almost always less than the required height. lt is then obvious to any casual observer that any supposed recruitmen t for police training for the visible minority groups would be an official exercise in futility, it would be a shallow joke, it would be an empty comedy. Since then that requirement of height has been removed. I was hoping all along that things will change, that people will qualify; they will not be disqualified by

958 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA November 8, 19 90 reason of their biological genetic inheritance, but it is 19 90 now, almost 10 years, almost a decade. There is almost no change in this official attitude of the establishment in the law enforcement agency of the City of Winnipeg. True, they always say they are recruiting; true, they always advertise, they even offer courses. We have witnessed it now, Mr. Speaker, of the nine people who passed all the objective written tests and all the strenuous, rigorous, physical tests, only two were hired ; seven of them wer e rejected.

Among the reasons stated was their lack of assertiveness. This could be a cu ltural value characteristic of certain groups of people. There are certain groups of people who in their own cultural upbringing had never deemed it proper to assert themselves. Is that a ground for rejection when they have passed all the objectives, written, rigorous, phy sical tests, when they have qual ified and maintained all the standards? This is unexplainable to me, Mr. Speaker. lt see ms to me that there is no equal ity of opportunity. lt appears to me that it is simply an empty rhetoric.

The Premier of this province, as the head of this province, which contains one-half of the total population of the City of Winnipeg, how did he respo nd ? We are powe rless. We canno t do anything. This is like a wet noodle. No strength to change what he understands, what he recognizes as a basic inequality in our society. As a subsystem of society, our public service institutions must reflect the society at large, and all the different groups that came over and became part of our society on the other hand have the obligation to respect the values of this society and adjust themselves accor dingly.

The public service organization in order to be effective, in order to be understood, in order to be efficient must understand the values and sentiments and beliefs of these different segments of the public at large when they respond to their needs. If they are not aware of these values because these groups are not represented in the force, in the law enforce ment agency, how can they prope rly respond and meet their needs?

A desirable objective then of any public service institution is to make the manpower composition of the public age ncy a truly mirror image of the popu lation in the com mu nity at large as proportionately, as much as possible, with due reg ar d to the standards of ex ce llenc e of performance.

If the public service institution had achi eved and su cceeded in maintaining its isolationist, elitist aloof kind of position that it is likely a tower where nobody can enter, then they cannot be truly representative of the people that they serve , and they can only be seen as oppressive by the people whom they do not understand. All public service institutions should strive to become human in humane agencies.

What I am saying is that every public employee, every public official, elected or appointed, has a special moral duty to protect espec ially the helpless, the weak, the poor and the untutored who are normally found among this new immigrant group. The rich and the affluents, they need no protection from Government because they are already powerful and they are already dominant in our social and econom ic structure. They already have many friends in high places. They are already in control of sufficient and adequate amounts of resources to immediately take care of themselves. Yet what does this Government do?

They give grants to those who already have more than enough of the resources of society and yet ignore the plight of the poor, the people who need help and cut down on social services. Let me give a specific example. The other day I was-- An Honourable Member : What day was that? * (1 630) Mr. Santos : In a telephone call-and this individual, the Minister responsible for Seniors (Mr. Downey) said, what day was that? lt was November 2, 19 89. I had a telephone call from a member of my constituency who lives in Webb Place.

He was trying to repeal an old bottle of prescription drug of the same amount. lt is an ointment called celestoderm in one of the drugstores locally on Portage Avenue. The weight was about .1 strength. He was charged $19 .49 . When you look at this bottle the charge was only $8.96. So what he did, he called Unicity. There is another drugstore there in the same branch of the same outfit, and asked what the price of the drug is in that store in Unicity, and it is only $8.96. He had been overcharged $1 0. 50. So he complained to me, and he refused to buy the drug.

What kind of a system is that where they can raise the price more than 1 00 percent in the same branch of the same store and yet this Government does nothing about it. So those who already have much are getting more, butthose who have none or less are being exploited.

November 8, 19 90 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA 959 Mr. Speaker, it is only our own self-di scipline as individuals that can give us the life that we hold responsible and become a true guardian and trustee of the needful segment of our population. Thank you very much. Mr. Speaker: I would ask the Honourable Member, during his remarks the Honourable Member spoke a language other than French or English, and I would ask the Honourable Member to kindly give Hansard a copy of those remarks. HOUSE BUSINESS Hon. Clayton Manne ss (Govern ment House Leader): Mr.

Speaker, before you call the vote on the motion, I would like to announce some House business if I could. Mr. Speaker, I believe there is a disposition of the Members of the House to waive private Members' hour for today. There is not? There is for you? Mr. Speaker: Is there leave that we waive private Members' hour today? No, no leave. Leave denied. Mr. Manne ss: Mr. Speaker, I apologize for that, I thought there was.

Secondly, I would like to announce formally that the Standing Committee on Economic Deve lopment will be sitting Tuesday morning next at ten o'clock to consider the annual reports of Channel Area Loggers, Moose Lake Loggers, and CEDF. An Honourable Member: Anything else for next week? Mr. Man ness: I will announce that tomorrow. Mr. Speaker: lt is moved by the Honourable Gove rnm ent Hous e Lea der (M r. Mann e ss) , seconded by the Honour able Min iste r of Environment (Mr. Cummings), that Mr.

Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. Motion agreed to, and the House resolved itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty with the Honour able Member for St. Norbert (Mr. Laurendeau} in the Chair for the Dep artment of Finance ; and the Honourable Member for Seine River (Mr s. Dacquay) in the Chair for the Department of Education and Training . CONCURR ENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPL Y SUPPL V-FINANCE Mr. Deputy Chair man (Marcel Laur end eau): Order, please.

Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This afternoon, we will be resuming consideration of the Estimates of the Department of Finance. We will continue with consideration of item 5. Feder al-Pr ovincial Relations and Research Division, (a} Economic and Federal-P rovincial Relations Branch: (1 ) Salaries $902,800.00. Shall the item pass? Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East): There is refer ence in the budget to multiyear budgeting, and as I said before I did not really consider that full budgeting. There are inclinations, indications as to where we may be in '91 -92, '92-93 , as well as the current year .

There is reference here in '91 -92 to anticipated revenue from Manitoba taxes and fees being somewhat below the more moderate growth expected for our economy. We anticipate growth of about 4 percent. Then it goes on to talk about the outlook for federal transfers being sombre and so forth and so on. At any rate it comes out that the bottom line, total revenue growth would be limited to under 3 percent. My question is: As I read it, this paragraph on page 1 5, fourth paragraph, third line, the referenced anticipated growth about 4 percent, you are talking about overall economic growth there, are you not?

Or are you talking about anticipated reve nue growth? Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Fi nance): Mr. Deputy Chairman, we are talking about revenue growth. Mr. Leonard Evans: I am sorry, I did not hear the answer. Mr. Manness : Mr. Deputy Chairman, I am talking specifically and only about reve nue growth. Cash, dollars that come into the consolidated revenue fund. Mr. Leonard Evans: That estimate of growth of revenue would be tied presumably to the rate of growth of the economy as a whole.

Now maybe there is not a direct relationship because there are many factors that involve revenue growth, including tax changes and all kinds of variables, changes in habits of drinking, for instance, which may curtail the reve nues from liquor, et cetera, liquor sales and so on. But I was wondering what is your projection of

960 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA November 8, 19 90 economic growth on which the 4 percent anticipated growth of reve nue would be? Mr. Manness : Mr. Deputy Chairman, on page 4 of the first appendix, Budget Paper A, headed the economy- Mr. Leonard Evans: Budget paper, did you say? Mr. Manness : Budget paper A, page 4, one will see a table there, a heading saying Manitoba Outlook at a Glance, and for 19 91 real growth 1 percent. Mr. Leonard Evans: How does that compare now with the recent forecasts that are com ing down?

I notice reference was made the other day by the Minister to a Royal Bank of Canada forecast. I had a shee t on that somewher e , and I am ju st wonde ring, is there any-not reconciliation, but obviously there are comparisons done, and I was just wondering how does that forecast for '91 compare now with what is coming out of the different forecasting organizations? • (1 640) Mr. Manness : Mr.

Deputy Chairman, as ofthe 22nd of October, 19 90, the forecasts for '91 provincial growth, and this is for Manitoba, conference board 1 percent, lnformetrica 1. 3 percent, Bank of Nova Scotia 0. 6 percent, Royal Bank 0.3 percent, Bank of Montreal1. 0 percent, TD Bank 0.8 percent, Bank of Commerce 1. 7 percent. The average when one looks at those numbers, and I guess it is a simple average, is 1. 0 percent. Mr.

Leonard Evans: What the Minister Is doing, or what his staff is doing then is just simply taking all of the forecasts, giving them the same weight and taking a simple average of those forecasts of those agencies. What about the year '92-937 Again that reve nue growth has to be related somehow to the growth in the economy. I notice, of course, you do not have a 19 92 projection published for real growth, but nevertheless I would imagine somewhere you have a number. Again, do you take the simple average of the various forecasting agencies? Mr. Manne ss : Mr. Deputy Chairman, we do have a number.

There are aboutthree or four agencies that have forecasted out that far, '92-93. We have chosen to use their numbers and that shows a forecasted growth in real terms of 2.5 percent for '92 and also for '93. Mr. Leonard Evans : I think the Minister should realize by now, the further you get into the future the less certainty we would have with regard to the reliability of any of the forecasts no matter who does it. Mr. Manne ss : Mr. Deputy Chairman, I would never have thought of that, but I thank the Member for bringing that to my understanding, and I am very beholden to him. Mr.

Leonard Evans : You see, the point is that I have gone through the various Hans ards and Estimates of years gone by, and I forever read the now Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness), then the Finance Critic, urging and requesting a five-year budget process. Obviously, one has to be very brave indeed, foolhardy as a matter of fact, to come out with a so-called five-year forecast in a budget in terms of where we will be with revenues and expenditures. I think it is virtually impossible. Mr. Manne ss : Mr.

Deputy Chairman, I agree, just like somebody has to be very foolhardy when they made the expenditure today without taking into account its impact for the years to come. I agree with the Member. One can be considered foolhardy if they try to forecast the econom y and therefore rev enue growth, but I say it is just as foolhardy to make a decision around that Treasury Board and/or Cabinet without knowing the fiscal impact of that decision in years to come.

To me they are both very foolhardy, and I question how Governments of the past in this province and indeed in this nation, whether or not they have practised the foolhardy approach of not seriously looking at their consequences and making a decision today as far as the impact of that decision on the total expenditure requirements In the years to come. Mr. Leonard Evans: Well, I would think and hope that all responsible Governments would at least look at that angle, but there are alw ays other conside rations, as the Minister knows.

All Governments are subject to a lot of pressure from various groups, various interests, who want a program or another. I can use one example, and maybe the Minister is cognizant of this, the whole social housing progr am. Say you just take the seniors alone, never mind the families, or you could take both, where the Governments of not only Manitoba but other provincial Governments, the Gov ernmen t of Can ada , are lock ed in on a long-term basis with subsidies to the social housing stock that has been put in place , put in place not

November 8, 19 90 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEMB LY OF MAN ITOBA 961 always thinking about financial consequences years ahead, but you put it in place because you are concerned that your seniors should be provided with adequate housing. While one wants to take a fiscal approach and a responsible approach, yet at the same time we balance off with the challenges of Government, and as I said, one challenge has been historically for this province to provide adequate social housing for seniors, for instance. Mr. Manne ss: Well, Mr. Deputy Chairman, you know, what the Member says is fine but let us be blunt about it.

I mean, we can talk ·about building housing stock. All political people and indeed Gove rnmen ts would like to build more public housing, but the fact is we have housing stock in this province right now that is horribly overv alued, that if we put it on the market, I am sure we should reflect the true value to a much greater extent than we have , and that would repr esent an incre dible bottom-line loss. lt would be no different than the pension liability.

What the Member is saying is, build morEr-fi ne- without taking into account that we have not even reflected yet the true value of the stock that we have in place right now, which we are probably still borrowing on. lt has not been paid for ; it is not properly reflected on the asset sheet. We should probably do a major readjustment to our bottom line to reflect the value, and then he is asking us to build more. Mr. Depu ty Chairman, that is a pure recipe for going broke. That is just the way the NDP did their budgeting over years, and we are trying to change that, with great difficulty. Mr. Leonard Evans : Mr.

Deputy Chairman, I do not think the Minister was listening to me. I was offering this as an example. Historically, where we go back

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Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	35-1-21
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	35th 1st hansardpdf 21.pdf
Language	en
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