LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Tuesday, 12 August, 1986. Time - 8:00 p.m. MADAM SPEAKER, Hon. M. Phillips: The Honourable Minister of Education. HON. J. STORIE: Madam Speaker, has he put the . MADAM SPEAKER: The motion before the House is that Madam Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Commit tee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty.

QUESTION put; MOTION carried and the House resolved itself into a Commit tee to consider of the Supply to be granted to He r Ma jesty with the Honourable Member for Burrows in the Chair for the Department of Natural Resources; and the Honourable Member for Kildonan in the Chair for the Department of Labour. CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY - LABOUR MR. CHAIRMAN, M. Dolin: The comm ittee will come to order. We are meeting this evening to consider the Estimates of the Department of Labour, Page 108. We will begin with Resolution 107, but before that, we will have an introductory statement by the Minister.

The Minister of Labour. HON. A. MACKLING: Thank you, Mr. Chairperson. I expected that there would be other copies of this opening statement. I will certainly give my copy to the critic after I've read it into the record. Mr. Chairperson, fellow members, I am pleased to welcome you to the review of Manitoba Labour's Spending Estimates for the fiscal year 1986-87. I look forward to a meaningful discussion of our programs for the new fiscal year. Manitoba Labour has identified six guiding principles as the basis of its role and mission within the context of this government and this society. They are: 1.

To provide leadership and promotion and achievement of (

a) a fair and equitable workplace; (

b) cooperative relations between labour and management; (

c) shared decision making in the workplace in support of improving the quality of work life and efficiency of enterprises. 2. To protect the physical well-being and safety of persons and reduce property loss in respect to fire, structural, mechanical and other related hazards; to train and educate those persons entrusted with the responsibility of the enforcement of related legislation. 3. To promote, develop and admin ister apprenticeship and other cooperative skill training programs. 2870 4. To promote and protect the retirement security of workers and to encourage expansion of the pension system. 5.

To educate and inform the public, including special clients, with respect to the department's objectives, legislation and responsibilities. 6. To promote and practise shared decision making, affirmative action and effective planning with the department to work cooperatively with other departments and agencies and to present these as examples to others. Some changes have occurred within the department since last year: 1. The Pay Equity Bureau has been established under the direction of Carol Geller.

The bureau has a broad mandate which includes monitoring and reporting on the progress of pay equity as set out in The Pay Equity Act, and prov iding information and assistance to employers, employees and bargaining agents in both the public and private sectors. 2. In the Employment Standards Branch, a construction unit has been established to better enforce The Construction Industry Wages Act. 3. Our Mechanical and Engineering Branch has em barked on a new safety inspection program for propane and natural gas fueled vehicles.

This program is being undertaken in cooperation with the division of Driver and Vehicle Licensing in the Department of Highways. 4. The departmental structure remains unchanged from last year with the Labour and Admi nistration Divisions, the Research and Planning Branch, the Labour Board, the Pay Equity Branch and the Director of Communications reporting to the Deputy Minister. The Affirmative Action Coordinator for the government continues to report to me. 5.

Affirmative action continues to be a high priority in our department and an Affirmative Action Commit tee has been established, received training and has been meeting regularly sinc e February of 19 85. The functions of this commit tee have been developed and implementation of the department's affirmative action plan, which includes policies for the recruitment of target group members and training for their career advancement. 6.

We are also continuing our strategic planning process in the department which improves our decision making by focusing on long­ term objectives to assist us in obtaining the maximum benefit in the allocation of our

Tuesday, 12 August, 1986 resources. Com puter techno logy and information systems are also being introduced throughout the department to imp rove our perf ormanc e and cost effectiveness. 7. Manitoba's record of collective bargaining activity, work stoppages and unemployment continues to be favourable compared to pre vious years and to the national performance. 8. 1 In the last four years, collective bargaining activity has been at an all time high, with some 2,800 agreements being negotiated. Of these, 98.3 percent were settled without work stoppages.

That's a four-year average. 8.2 Since the beginning of 1982, only 47 work stoppages have occu rred in Ma nitoba, compared with 144 in the previous four years. 8.3 Persons days lost due to work stoppages declined to 12 3,000 for the period 1982-85, compared to 585,000 days in the period 19 78-8 1. 8.4 Manitoba's record on persons days lost to work stoppages per thousa nd, non­ agricultural workers, was the second lowest among the provinces in the first nine months of 19 85. 9. 1 In the period 19 81- 85, Manitoba's working age population increased at twice the annual rate experienced in the period 19 77-8 1. 9.2 In sp ite of the increased gr owth rate, Manitoba's job growth was able to sustain a rate of unemployment well below the national average.

In Ju ly, Ma nitoba's seasonally adjusted unemployment rate was the second lowest in the country, 7.7 percent, only half a percentage point greater than Ontario's. The Canadian unemployment rate in July was 9.9 percent. Manitoba's actual unemployment rate, adjusted for seasonal variations, was 7. 1 percent, again the second lowest in the country. In June, for the first time in the province's history, the number of Manitobans employed topped the one­ half million mark, and in July they numbered 508,000 people. 10.

In 19 86-87, Manitoba labour is requesting 23 1. 11 staff years, which represents a net increase of 2.26 staff years over last year. Our expenditure request for 19 86-87 is $9,333,500.00. This represents a 4.9 percent spending increase over that budgeted in 1985-86. This increase is attributable to the addition of new programs which I previously mentioned and by minor salary and operating adjustments. Mr. Chairperson, I've presented to this comm ittee a brief overview of the major changes that have taken place over the past year and highlighted the major program initiatives that we're emphasizing in 19 86-87.

I'm confident the members present will have many questions and so on. Thank you very much. MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Minister. The Member for Brandon West. MR. J. McCRAE: I thank the Minister for making available a copy of his remarks. I also thank him for making ava ilable Supplem entary Informat ion for Legislative Review, although that was done earlier today. As helpful as they've been in the few hours intervening between then and now, it would have been more helpful to have them considerably sooner than that.

I hope next year, whoever the critic is, and it may very well be me, I hope the Minister, regardless of distractions, will make that available to me a little sooner. HON. A. MACKLING: Agreed. MR. J. McCRAE: I thank the Minister for his agreement with that sentiment. Mr. Chairman, regardless of the somewhat favourable statistics the Minister has given us tonight, we have to remember all the time and in everything we do that the priority for all Manitobans is still jobs and a healthy economic climate in this province, a climate that creates a competitive edge wherever possible, for Manitoba.

Our economy is delicate and needs to be treated as such. We have to remember also, Mr. Chairman, that in Manitoba most people work for one small business or another and our labour policies should keep that in mind in every aspect. It seems to me, Mr. Chairman, that over the last few years, the government has done the opposite in the sense tha t it has placed some pretty impo rtant stumbling blocks in the way of a healthy and, how should I put it, convivial working relationship between employers and employees in this province and we have made that point whenever we've been able to.

Certainly, in my Throne Speech debate, the Minister will recall some of my comments, and I know he took exception to some of them. But I think, on a close examination and a fair examination, he will see if we look at the realities in this province, the economic realities and the workplace realities in this province, that a more moderated stance respecting employer and employee relations would not hurt and could very well help. Especially this is true, Mr. Chairman, when we talk about the matter of equal pay for work of equal value in the private sector. I'm sure we'll get into that in more detail.

I don't want to talk for very long because the evening won't be as long as we might hope it would be. So I'll stop now and ask the Minister to bring in his staff. MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you. If the staff would like to come forward at this point. If the Minister would like to introduce his staff. HON. A. MACKLING: Thank you, Mr. Chairperson. I would like to introduce to you, and I don't believe the critic has had the pleasure of having been introduced, not formally, to the Deputy Minister, Mary Eady. I will ask Mary to introduce the remainder of the staff. MR. CHAIRMAN: Only you can go on record. HON. A.

MACKLING: The Acting Assistant Deputy Minister, Jim Nykoluk; the Director of Administration, 2871

Tuesday, 12 August, 1986 Bob Gorchynski; Lawrence Smith, who is Finance Officer; and JoAnne Reinsch from the Personnel Branch. There are others who we'll be bringing up as necessary. I'll try to introduce them all. MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Minister. Deferring the Minister's Salary at this point, we'll begin with Administration and Finance . . . HON. A. MACKLING: Why don't you pass my salary? MR. CHAIRMAN: It's not the usual practice. Item 1. (

b) Executive Su pport - the Member for Brandon West. MR. J. McCRAE: Mr. Chairman, I was going to ask about Commun ications. According to some read ing I did last year respecting this department's Estimates, there was discussion to the effect that, at that time, there had been no Commun ications staff in the department. Maybe the Minister can bring me up tc date on that. HON. A. MACKLING: Staff are going to get me the exact date, but John Doyle - oh, we have it here - joined the department as Director of Communications on October 15.

Prior to joining Manitoba Labour, he held positions in the communications field, including a news reporter and news editor of CKPR Radio and Television in Thunder Bay - here he is - 19 72-77. He was a legislative reporter and labour reporter for CKY Radio and Television in Winnipeg from '78-85, received his formal training in Commu nication Arts at Confederation College and Labour Economics at Lakehead University. He's also held a number of executive positions for the National Association of Broadcasting Employees and Technicians, and made that a Local 816 . MR. J. McCRAE: Mr.

Chairman, what would the duties of Mr. Doyle be in the department? I ask that question bearing in mind that up until now I understand the department hasn't had a Commu nications Officer. If I'm incorrect, the Minister can correct me. HON. A. MACKLING: I would like to say, keeping the Minister out of trouble, but I'll get the formal answer. MR. J. McCRAE: You couldn't pay anybody enough to do that, Mr. Chairman. HON. A.

MACKLING: I may not give this the fullest of description that perhaps would be warranted, but basically it's to coord inate all communications in the depa rtment, preparing material on behalf of the department as necessary in respect to all matters requiring communication either within the department or externally. MR. J. McCRAE: What did the department do before October 15, 19 85? HON. A. MACKLING: We had a Co mmuni cations Director, Michael Balagus, and then he left us and we limp ed along inter dep artmentally on the communications. MR. J. McCRAE: Was Mr.

Balagus' costs and salary reflected in previous years' Estimates? HON. A. MACKLING: Yes. MR. J. McCRAE: Was Mr. Doyle's salary reflected in Executive Support Salaries? HON. A. MACKLING: Yes. MR. J. McCRAE: Perhaps the Minister can expand on that because it appears the Salaries have decreased from the previous fiscal year? HON. A. MACKLING: Mr. Chairperson, there was a reduction because the'85-86 included a part-year salary cost for the Labour Law Review Consultant and '86- 87 does not have that provision. MR. J. McCRAE: I'm going to need a little help here, Mr.

Chairman, as some of my questions probably don't relate to Executive Support. We have before us Bill 32 before the Legislature amending The Pension Benefits Act, and I'm wondering if that act has been before the Labour Management Review Committee for its study and recommendation. HON. A. MACKLING: No, Mr. Chairperson. MR. J. McCRAE: It hasn't. Is it not part of the mandate of the Labour Management Review Committee to review legislation introduced by this department? HON. A.

MACKLING: Its mandate is a broad one but we haven't in the past specifically referred pensions legislation, that I know of, to the Labour Management Review Committee. Perhaps it's a good suggestion. We could certainly have their viewpoint. MR. J. McCRAE: If the Minister thinks it's a good suggestion, I invite him to give it further consideration. HON. A. MACKLING: I think the Labour Management Review Comm ittee can have a very healthy role to play in respect to all legislation. I have referred an extensive number of items to that body and they won't be without areas of concern.

In respect to pension legislation, we have a Pension Commission that of course advises the Minister on pension legislation as well. MR. J. McCRAE: Mr. Ch airman, the Pension Comm ission is also the body charged with the responsibility of monitoring and making sure that pension legislation is carried forward in the manner it was intended. I just wonder if the Labour Management Review Comm ittee would be something more of an independent body reviewing and monitoring such things. HON. A. MACKLING: I wouldn't disagree that it may be a very useful body as I've indicated. MR. J.

McCRAE: Similarly, has the Labour Management Review Comm ittee given the Minister any of the benefit of its wisdom respecting The Pay Equity Act? 2872

Tuesday, 12 August, 1986 HON. A. MACKLING: The question of pay equity I think has been the subject of discussion by the Labour Management Review Comm ittee. I don't know whether there have been any recommendations from that group. I'm given to understand that the Labour Management Review Comm ittee has set up a subcom mittee on pay equity but as yet have not given us any advice from that subcommittee. MR. J.

McCRAE: Does the Minister know if that subcomm ittee is also looking into the so-called privatization of equal pay for work of equal value; and will it be offering its opinions and suggestions to the Minister and his department in that regard - pay equity in the private sector. HON. A. MACKLING: I'm given to understand that they decide their own agenda and how they approach the subject so I'll await their views in respect to the application of pay equity in the private sector. MR. J. McCRAE: Mr. Chairman, should we pass this item and get onto another area?

I'd like to go into a little more detail about pay equity and perhaps it should come under ... MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. First of all, just so we can understand where we should ask some questions, are all of the grants made by this department contained in Item 2.(j) - all of the grants made by this department. HON. A. MACKLING: Yes. MR. CHAIRMAN: Excuse me. With the Min ister's agreement, his staff are all here if you wish a free­ ranging discussion to deal with any item that you see fit. HON. A. MACKLING: I have no problem of you jumping anywhere you want.

MR. CHAIRMAN: We could go and just pass the whole thing at once if you want. MR. G. MERCIER: Where would Affirmative Action be dealt with? HON. A. MACKLING: Under Executive Support. MR. G. MERCIER: Under that area then, at the last Session of the Legislature, we had quite a lengthy discussion on that topic. The Minister provided some statistical information to us that indicated the number of women employed in the Civil Service and their various classifications. I believe, if I recall correctly, it showed approximately 50 percent, perhaps even a little over 50 percent. What I would be interested in knowing, Mr.

Chairman, is to what degr ee have the classifications of women in the Civil Service improved. That is, have they got better jobs in the Civil Service than they had a year ago? 2873 HON. A. MACKLING: I'm inviting the Director of the Affirmative Action Branch to come forward, Brian Dagdick, to supply me with the information for the answer. I'm advised that, in this past year there has been a significant increase in the hiring of women in senior officer positions; in the other areas, not as dram atic an increase, but a significant increase overall in the senior officer area. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr.

Chairman, last year the Minister was kind enough to forward to me Tables on Male/ Female Distribution by Salary Interval. Does he have such a table for this year? This last one was dated March 4, 1985. HON. A. MACKLING: No, I do n't have that. It isn't available. It takes a couple of months to produce this. We could probably give tha t informa tion to the honourable mem ber, but we don't have it here. I'd have to send it to him subsequently. MR. G. MER CIER: Mr. Chairman, I' m a little disappointed because we've asked for this the last two years and got it.

I would think the department could have anticipated that we'd be asking for the same information this year. Would the Minister undertake then to - it must be done on a regular basis by the department. It was done in March of 1985. Could the Minister undertake to supply this information to us after the Estimates are completed, and perhaps undertake to have this information available before the Estimates start next year? HON. A. MACKLING: I'm given to understand that this information has to be obtained initially and compiled, and the information comes from the Civil Service Commission.

This year or in this years budget, monies having appropriated it will allow the Civil Service Commission to prepare this data itself, so it should be available in future for the regular Estimates process. MR. G. MERCIER: On what basis is the Minister saying that women have achieved higher-paying jobs in the Civil Service during the last year, if he doesn't have this information? HON. A. MACKLING: There was a review of the senior officer area and that indicated a significant increase. MR. G. MERCIER: How many people? HON. A. MACKLING: I don't think there's any problem in revealing names. They're civil servants.

Sharon MacDonald is an Assistant Deputy Minister in Health; Isabel Dube, Assistant Deputy Minister in Northern Affairs; Brenda Kustra, Assistant Deputy Minister in Northern Affairs; Roberta Alice Grunfeld, Senior Officer 3, ADM equivalent to Civil Service Commission; Sheila Rogers, Senior Officer 3, Deputy Director, Legal Aid, the Attorney-General; Elizabeth Wagner, Senior Officer 3, Secretary, ERIC and Jobs Fund; and Sobharam Singh, ADM, Energy and Mines. In addition, Senior Officer Branch Directors, Tannis Mindell, Executive Director, Employment Services . . .

Tuesday, 12 August, 1986 MR. G. MERCIER: You could just give me the numbers. HON. A. MACKLING: Just the numbers? Senior Branch Directors, seven, and the numbers in the Assistant Deputy Minister were seven, and one more Deputy Minister in Employment Services, the target group women. MR. G. MER CIER: The Min ister , I believe, has undertaken to provide this information shortly. I believe this is the area where we would ask about legislation. Is the Minister planning any other legislation? MR. CHAIRMAN: Period? The Minister of Labour. I thought there was more to the question. HON. A. MACKLING: Mr.

Chairperson, I thought he was going to say this Session. There's nothing in the legislative hopper this Session. We have had discussions about contract performance legislation. That has not been confirmed or developed as yet. MR. G. MERCIER: Is the Minister contemplating plant closure legislation? HON. A. MACKLING: No t this Sessi on, Mr . Chairperson. MR. G. MERCIER: Is anyone studying such legislation? HON. A. MACKLING: Not legislation. MR. G. MERCIER: Is the department, by itself or in consultation with any other department, considering legislation with respect to technological change? HON. A.

MACKLING: No, not that I'm aware of, Mr. Chairperson. As the honourable member knows, a number of initiatives have occurred in the area of tech change, the Workplace Innovation Centre. I think that significant investment in initiative is taking place this year. Also the Tech Change Dialogue Program was carried out. I don't think there is any legislation contemplated. MR. G. MERCIER: The Minister and this department are planning no major changes in legislation? HON. A. MACKLING: I wouldn't say that we're not planning any major legislative change.

We certainly have interests in a number of areas and as and when we decide that some legislation will be brought forward, of course we would announce that. MR. G. MERCIER: What process will the Minister follow with respect to major legislation, in terms of consultation with outside groups? HON. A. MACKLING: That may vary, in accordance with the demands of the legislation. MR. G. MERCIER: And the philosophy of the Minister. HON. A. MACKLING: True. MR. G. MERCIER: I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Brandon West. MR. J. McCRAE: Mr.

Chairman, while we're on legislation, I'd like to tell the Minister that I have done as he asked and I've read his speech at the presentation for Second Reading of The Pay Equity Act, that being June 25, 1985. I'll read something the Minister said: "It is suggested by some that the private sector should fall into this legislation, Mr. Speaker. We decided against including that sector. It is our opinion that we should lead by example, that we should show that pay equity could be achieved at a reasonable cost or without disruption.

We feel confident that the private sector will proceed with pay equity willingly on their own. Our Pay Equity Bureau will be available to offer them advice and help in implementing it in their workplaces." I'll stop there, Mr. Chairman, and ask the Minister if, on June 25, he was enunciating government policy? HON. A. MACKLING: I was indicating the attitude of the Minister and, I assume, of the government at that time, that we believe that we addr ess pay equity in reasonable stages.

We were looking at our own house, the Civil Service, Crown corporations, major funded institutions, and we indicated the extent of the initiative that we were prepared to proceed with at that time. That did not foreclose further initiatives after that date. MR. J. McCRAE: Mr. Chairman, I'll ask the Minister, what intervened between June 25, 1985 and February, March of 1986 that should cause the Premier to go about the province telling employers and employees that pay equity would be imposed upon them by a newly elected New Democratic Government? HON. A. MACKLING: I want to correct the honourable mem ber.

I don't think the Premier indicated that pay equity would be - I don't think he said that pay equity would be imposed upon the private sector. He said that this government would proceed with initiation of pay equity initiatives in the private sector after consultation with the private sector. He didn't indicate the manner in which pay equity would be developed in the private sector. MR. J. McCRAE: What consultations have taken place since the election, with the private sector? HON. A.

MACKLING: When the Premier was making tha t comm itment, he was making comm itment in respect to the program of this gov ernment as contemplated in the next four years. As the honourable memb er knows, we have significant program involvement in the development of pay equity within the Civil Service, within the Crowns, within the institutions, and then of course we will be looking at the extensive consultation necessary in respect to development of pay equity in local government, in school boards and the private sector, of course, will be part of our agenda during the four­ year period. MR. J. McCRAE: Mr.

Chairman, I suggest that if the Minister is going to do this, that he should do it now, 2874

Tuesday, 12 August, 1986 because if he does it at a time that is closer to the next election, he'll be in some big trouble. You should get some of these unpopular things out of the way right away so that you don't have to face the population and the workplace and the workers and their em ployers in this province. The Minister of Education seems to want to get involved here, Mr. Chairman. I'd be glad to yield the floor to him, if he wants to talk. There he goes. He makes the point, Mr. Chairman, that all the female workers in this province would support such a move.

Maybe he's talking to those who aren't employed now, because those who are employed may have a little bit of difficulty holding their jobs - or a number of them would - if the Minister and the First Minister proceed with forcing this on their employers in this province. HON. A. MACKLING: I sincerely appreciate the advice of the honourable member. I'm sure that he means this well and would like to see us in office for many, many more years; and I'm sure that he's concerned to give us good advice in saying, do it now.

The part of his advice that I disagree with is that, in implementing vigorous dialogue and hopefully leading to consensus building and voluntary adoption of pay equity in the private sector, I don't think that is an unpopular measure. I think the majority of people in Canada, certainly in Manitoba, hold the view that women are no longer second- rate workers, that the work they do is as valuable, in all respects, as work done by men. Historically, as the honourable member knows, there has been systemic discrimination against women.

The value of the work that women have performed has been considered of less value than work performed by men, often, despite the fact the work was very similar. Over the course of time, we've finally narrowed the gap, we did have legislation adopted providing for equal pay for equal work, but that is only a part measure.

The honourable mem ber, if he talks to many women, will come to appreciate that women are militant in their demand for justice and that a growing number of men, husbands, fathers, just ordinary Manitobans with a growing appreciation for fairness, believe that we should be well on our way with respect to pay equity. MR. J. McCRAE: While the Minister is dealing with systemic discrimination and fairness, I would invite him to turn his attention to the thousands of women who don't leave their homes to do their work. They do an awful lot of work and their hours are not 9 to 5, Mr.

Chairman, and when we're talking about systemic discrimination, I have a family and a wife at home, as I'm sure others do, and my wife happens to be looking after five children and she has to live on whatever it is that I can bring in, and that is the case in many, many other households across this province. The Minister's pay equity program doesn't do anything about that problem which has been here, I would say, longer than the problems the Minister is talking about. So that pay equity does nothing for people like that.

Sure the Minister can respond by saying, well, we can only respond to the needs as they are brought to our attention and as the pressure mounts. But, you know, there is an awful lot of pressure in all these areas, Mr. Chairman, including pension reform for women who have stayed in their homes all their lives doing a very valuable service of raising children and looking after homes. You know, the pressure is going to build for those kinds of reforms, too. If the Minister wants to respond, I'll give him an opportunity. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Minister of Labour. I don't think you'll be able to stop him. HON. A.

MACKLING: Thank you, Mr. Chairperson. I appr eciate the honourable member when he indicates concern for the value of work, it's often the woman is required to do in the home. However, it's becoming more common to hear of men doing the work at home and the woman having the career. I believe that social democratic governments in this province have set an example in Canada by advancing the interests of women. We developed fairer legislation in respect to marital property and the right to a fair division of that property, equal division of that property, in a previous term of government.

We have done much to addr ess the inequities that have historically existed in respect to women, not only women in the workplace, that's the sector we're addressing now, but women at home, as well. MR. J. McCRAE: I asked the Minister some time ago, Mr. Chairman, who is going to pay for pay equity in the public sector agencies and Crown corporations? The Minister wasn't very very clear in his answer and maybe he could give us a clear answer tonight. HON. A. MACKLING: In respect to government spending, there is only one body that pays and that is the taxpayer.

The salaries of workers are negotiated over the course of time and what we're looking at here is, over the course of time, redressing an inequity that has existed for far too long. It will be phased in. It's estimated that the cost will be 1 percent of the payroll per year; tha t in a fou r-year period we should accomplish that in any specific payroll. That is not an inordinant amount of money. It's certainly well justified to right an historic wrong and to provide reasonable salaries to women. MR. J. McCRAE: Has the Mi nister decided the mechanics of how it will be paid for?

For instance, if we take the Health Sciences Centre or the Brandon General Hospital, for example, there will be certain cost increases when this is brought in, will the government be granting extra monies to pay for pay equity or will these institutions have to make accommodations in their budgeting so that they can pay for pay equity? MR. CHAIRMAN: I would suggest that it is probably not within the pur view of this Mini ster or this department. I would suggest that that's probably under the Department of Finance that that question would be more appropriate. If the Minister wishes to comment, I can't stop him.

MR. J. McCRAE: I felt the Minister might be willing to comment, Mr. Chairman. HON. A. MACKLING: I appreciate your concern about the nic ety of my being required or wishing to answer 2875

Tuesday, 12 August, 1986 his question, but it is a legitimate question to ask the Minister responsible for the introduction of pay equity and I accept it. Certainly, I'm sure that the health organizations will advance the concern they have in respect to their funding requirements which will obviously include the pay equity adjustments. That is something that of course government will be faced with and will have to take into consideration when we look at their fiscal needs. MR. J. McCRAE: Mr.

Chairman, let's say that in the next two years pay equity is working in the public sector, but not yet introduced in the private sector, will the higher rates of pay in the public sector not create pressure in the private sector to increase wages for women and thereby obviating the necessity to impose pay equity? HON. A.

MACKLING: It's our expectation that the example that we set will be emulated in the private sector, because the value of the jobs identified in the public sector occupied by women, when those jobs are re-evaluated, it will have repercussions in the private sector, there's no question about that, and we trust that will facilitate the introduction of pay equity in the private sector itself. MR. J. McCRAE: Why was it necessary to introduce legislation? I wasn't here a year ago, Mr. Chairman, when it was brought in, but why could pay equity not have been carried out by way of administrative changes and regulations?

HON. A. MACKLING: That is a good question and those questions were asked by some of your colleagues in the past sittings of the Legislature and my answer then may be far more complete than I would give it now at this meeting. But, basically, the concern was that we establish, in a formal way, the ground rules and the principles for the introduction of pay equity, to establish the technique of the introduction providing for a phased introduction of pay equity.

It was argued, of course, all of that could be done by regulation because it's the direct Civil Service, the Crown, but we were concerned to establish pay equity in a formal way in which we involved as much public process as possible so that it would prepare the base for pay equity implementation, or introduction and implementation in every sector of society, including the private sector. MR. J.

McCRAE: Since certain news items came out about pay equity in Minnesota, has the Minister been in touch with autho rities ther e, particularly representatives Knickerbocker and Dempsey about the so-called unforetold headaches those two gentlemen spoke about caused by the Minnesota Pay Equity Bill, and that bill's been in effect for the last three years? I understand the Minnesota model is the one being used in Manitoba and I understand the Hay formula is being used in Manitoba, which is the same formula used in Minn esota. Has the Minister or mem bers of his department been in touch with authorities down there?

HON. A. MACKLING: I'd like to introduce Carol Geller who is the Director of the Pay Equity Bureau and yes, the answer is that staff have talked to officials in Minnesota, including the state officials and the union officials that negotiated and have introduced pay equity, and they have indicated that the remarks of the two persons, the honourable member has referred to, do not reflect the facts of pay equity in Minnesota. MR. J. McCRAE: I guess you can't believe everything you read, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: I've noticed that, yes. MR. J.

McCRAE: I guess we'll have to ask some more questions about that ourselves because the arguments they made were very disconcerting to me, as a member of a political party in this country that supports pay equity in the public sector, to find that before we even get it off the ground, they're having all these troubles in Minnesota. I don't quite understand the Minister's answer just being a flat denial that these problems exist. I don't think it's quite as simple as that.

I guess I'll move on and ask the Minister what the timetable is for the imposition, or whatever the Minister prefers to call it, of pay equity on cities, towns, and municipalities in this province - and I suppose school boards too - what consultations have taken place since the bill was passed a year ago last July? HON. A. MACKLING: There haven't been any formal consultations with school boards or local government as yet. There have been some inquiries and the director of the Pay Equity Branch responded to those. The time frame for that has not been determ ined.

It will be, of course, during the next couple of years; we'll be proceeding with that. I might say also, we will send the member further information in respect to the Minnesota experience. It might be helpful. MR. J. McCRAE: Can the Min ister tell us what response, generally speaking, that his department has been getting from municipalities, towns, city, and school boards, about the proposal and about how it will be funded? HON. A. MACKLING: I'm apprised the municipalities have asked questions but they haven't indicated any specific areas of concern as yet.

The Ma nitoba Association of School Trustees is having a seminar on pay equity in January and the director will be speaking at that seminar. MR. J. McCRAE: I wonder, Mr. Chairman, if one of the concerns will be where a person is in the order of seniority in a workplace. I've seen the Memorandum of Agreement between the government and the MGEA and the female-domina ted classes are listed here. Not being an accounting clerk, or a former accounting clerk, I can't really speak about that, but I have been a Court Reporter 2 at one time, and Court Reporter 2 is listed here as being one of the female-domina ted classes.

It used to be that all court reporters were male so I can say a lot of progress has been made certainly in that one field. I wonder why I see Court Reporter 2 here as a female-dominated class. I take it that's because 2876

Tuesday, 12 August, 1986 70 percent or more of the people in those groups are female. Would this agreement that will result in adjustments later on, will that result in adjustments for court reporters, Reporter 2 and Library Technician 2 or is that subject to further negotiation? HON. A. MACKLING: Not necessarily so. They have been identified as classes that are domina ted by women. The jobs then will have to be evaluated pursuant to the job evaluation classification system that has been agreed upon. Then it will be a matter of, after that determination takes place, negotiating the introduction. MR. J.

McCRAE: What are the specific criteria in this point system em braced by the Hay Formula? HON. A. MACKLING: The whole system, of course, in evaluating the job is based on the skill, effort, degree of responsibility, and the working conditions in which the job is carried out. MR. J. McCRAE: Does the amount of training come into this or is that part of the skill component? HON. A. MACKLING: I'm advised that within the system, there are sub-factors under those general categories I referred to; the skill, responsibility, the effort, and the working conditions.

Under the sub-factor of skills would be training, previous experience, and so on. MR. J. McCRAE: Can the Minister tell me how many points are given for skill, or what the total is for skill and how much each component is worth? HON. A. MACKLING: I'm advised that when you adopt a consultant like Hay, you adopt their expertise which involves factoring and evaluations. They don't make it public so anyone can then pick it up and use it. The parties are briefed on the evaluation and the evaluation takes place with the understanding and commitment that the parties - the results are then confirmed by negotiation.

I understand also that the Hay system is a subject of copyright and therefore, even though I quite frankly would like to share with you what the system is, I can't do that. MR. J. McCRAE: I think this is probably one of the main difficulties with what we're trying to do with pay equity, Mr. Chairman. The Minister doesn't understand it any better than I do, I'm finding out. You know, the average Manitoban understands it even less if that's possible. There's a real problem because people are frightened, certainly in the public sector, just as to what pay equity means.

I think some further effort is going to have to be undertaken to make sure everyone involved in the process, and certainly the taxpayer, has a much better understanding of what it is they're paying for. Mr. Chairman, the Minister has told us, I can't remember when it was, it wasn't very long ago, but he said that employers and the Crown agencies will begin negotiating in October of this year. Is that correct? HON. A. MACKLING: Correct. MR. J. McCRAE: They'll be negotiating for the same type of agreement as the one reached with the MGEA. But what is it they're negotiating at this stage?

Is it the same type of agreement, and that is strictly to ident ify the classes and to decide on which job evaluation system, so that in these other sectors we might be talking about a different system of evaluation? HON. A. MACKLING: That's correct, the first thing the parties have to do is agree upon the consultants and what kind of program they want to engage. Now in the case of the Civil Service and the MGEA, they agreed upon the Hay's System. They heard submissions from various groups of consultants and chose the Hay's System. They negotiated and agreed on that.

The second stage was agreeing on the classifications that were gender domina ted. MR. J. McCRAE: Could the Minister tell us what the services of those consultants have cost to this point in time, the ones used in the negotiating process? HON. A. MACKLING: I would like to be able to give some quantification for the honourable member, but my information is that the Civil Service Commission would be the appropriate department to ask this of, because the Civil Service Commission and the MGEA met with and bargained with Hay and struck their agreement with them and I'm not privy to those details. MR. J.

McCRAE: It seems to me I asked some similar questions of the Minister responsible for the Civil Service Commission when his Estimates were up, and I think some of the answers I got from him were to ask the Minister of Labour, so I really have a problem. Perhaps it's something the Minister can take under advisement and check with the Minister of Finance, and perhaps supply me with that type of information. HON. A. MACKLING: Sure, will do. MR. J.

McCRAE: The other point is, how much has been spent by the gov ernment on consultants respect ing pay equity generally, in its application, however it's going to be applied in this province? HON. A. MACKLING: We're budgeting for $40,000 this year in these Estimates for consultants. MR. J. McCRAE: What was budgeted for and what was spent in 1985-86? HON. A. MACKLING: It was a half year and we spent $4,500.00. MR. J.

McCRAE: This Hay System, I understand is copyrighted, and perhaps this is another question for the Min ister respon sible for the Civil Service Commission, but what does it cost to make use of that formula? HON. A. MACKLING: I don't have that. I will undertake to try and get that information included with the . . . MR. J. McCRAE: Thank you. The $4,500 in consulting costs last year really wouldn't have bought very much, 2877

Tuesday, 12 August, 1986 but I wonder if there's been any studies done about the effect in the private sector of the position, if you will, of pay equity? What would be the result? Has any survey been done as to how many people's jobs are in jeopardy; those people that we really want to help, but who we will end up putting out of work if we impose it on the private sector? Surely the Minister is interested in that kind of statistic, and in finding out that kind of information, before he proceeds. HON. A.

MACKLING: I'm advised the only nation that looked at their pay equity was introduced 10 years ago in Australia. The results there did not produce a reduction in employment. MR. J. McCRAE: Mr. Chairman, with respect, I wonder if that's a very easy thing to quantify. People lose jobs and people find jobs, and the reasons aren't always documented. How can the Minister say that with such assurance? HON. A. MACKLING: Well, the honourable mem ber asked me a question then that he admits is very difficult to quant ify. MR. J. McCRAE: Still the Minister tried to quantify it. HON. A.

MACKLING: No, there is comme ntary about the Australian experience and that commentary is to the effect that it did not lead to a reduction of women in the work force, which is a concern the honourable member ... MR. J. McCRAE: It is very certainly and definitely a concern. The payroll ta x, Mr . Chairman, do esn't discriminate in the sense that it hits marginal and unprofitable businesses, just as any other business, and this would be the case too with pay equity in the private sector.

Does the Minister not agree that if pay equity is to be done fairly and uniformly across the province, then it should apply to every workplace; then if it does, we run the risk of increasing costs to emp loyers, thus forcing them to make decisions, like letting some people go. HON. A. MACKLING: Manitoba does not have a payroll tax. It has a levy for health and secondar y education.

That levy is designed and does contribute a significant amount of money to facilitate health and education costs in the province, recouping particularly from the Federal Government salaried employees, the work force that the Federal government has in this province - and the Federal Government is, I suppose, the second largest employer in the province - many millions of dollars. Ho wever, the health and educat ion levy is not un iversally applied to all the workplaces. As the honourable mem ber knows, most small businesses in Manitoba are not subject to the levy.

The application of pay equity in the private sector likely will have similar exempted features, because it will be virtually impossible to provide for a mandatory pay equity in very, very small workplaces. I don't think 2878 that would be the intention of any government to legislate pay equity in small family operations, where you call them a Mom and Pop grocery store sort of thing. MR. J. McCRAE: Will there be any subsidies, or does the Minister foresee any subsidies for private sector employers ... MR. CHAIRMAN: Excuse me. Could we have a little order, please? The Member for Brandon West. MR. J.

McCRAE: Will there be any subsidization for private sector enterprises complying with the Minister's and the government's wish to go ahead with pay equity? HON. A. MACKLING: I wouldn't contemplate that, Mr. Chairperson. MR. J. McCRAE: This list of female and male­ dominated classes, of course, lists those classes with respect to both sexes, and the male-dominated class is quite a lot bigger. What about males? Is there any relief for them in the Pay Equity Program of government in the public sector? HON. A. MACKLING: No.

Quite frankly, it's the male sector in society that historically has received all of the benefits and the rewards. We are playing catch-up in our fairness to women. But one of the significant features of our legislation is the fact that there can be no reduction in male salaries as a result of pay equity. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Mem ber for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, as I understand the legislation, there can be appeals to the Manitoba Labour Board on pay equity decisions. Is that correct? HON. A.

MACKLING: In respect to the introduction of pay equity in the Civil Service, there is no appeal to the Labour Board. There is an arbitration process that is provided for. In respect to the introduction of pay equity in the Crowns and the major funded institutions, there is an appeal to the Labour Board if the parties fail to reach agreement on any specific area of requirement. MR. G. MERCIER: On what basis will the Labour Board make a decision? HON. A.

MACKLING: They will hear argument from both sides in respect to the positions of both sides in respect to the issue under appeal, and then make a decision one way or the other. In some instances, I suppose, it may be that a compromise position may be in order. MR. G. MERCIER: What guidelines or principles will the Manitoba Labour Board use? HON. A. MACKLING: They will be making their decisions on the basis of the arguments that are placed before them, the precedents in other areas in other

Tuesday, 12 August, 1986 jur isdictions. They will have to choose from the submissions that are made and, of course, will look at the guidelines for decision-making that they have in respect to other issues that come before the board. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, will the Labour Board have any specific guidelines or principles to follow either in the legislation or in terms of some sort of direction perhaps from the Minister's Office? Are they simply in a vacuum? HON. A.

MACKLING: The Labour Board will receive the benefit of a report by the Director of the Pay Equity Bureau but, other than that, there are no specific formulas that will be just handed to the Labour Board for its decision-making. MR. G. MERCIER: Who approves the guidelines from the Director of the Pay Equity Bureau? HON. A. MACKLING: There won't be guidelines given to the Labour Board from the Pay Equity Bureau. It will be a report as to the negotiations. MR. G. MERCIER: Would this be a subjective view of the director? • HON. A. MACKLING: No, a factual report. MR. G.

MERCIER: I'm just finding it difficult to conceive how decisions will be made in those instances of appeal where there are no legislative guidelines or principles to be followed. I question whether, with all due respect and I'm not in any way being critical of the Director of the Pay Equity Bureau, whoever is in that position, if the board is to be governed by her report. She has no basis, other than certainly setting out the facts. But what principle is to be used? How are the parties, the outside agencies, the Crown corporations supposed to attempt to resolve these matters?

How are they resolved by the Labour Board when there are no legislative principles? HON. A. MACKLING: I disagree that there are no principles. The Pay Equity Act . . . MR. G. MERCIER: That's what I asked. HON. A. MACKLING: Pardon me? MR. G. MERCIER: I asked that at the very beginning. HON. A. MACKLING: The Pay Equity Act does indicate principles of pay equity and, of course, the board can look at that. As someone who was an admi nistrator of some tribunals in the past, I know that in many instances there are no set guidelines in respect to the adjudication that's necessary.

It's an application, in many instances, of common sense. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Brandon West. MR. J. McCRAE: The Research and Planning Division of the Minister's department deals with - what? - industrial labour information and statistics, and uses those facts and figures to formulate policy and monitors that kind of situation. I'm wondering if the Research and Planning Branch has done any specific study about the effect of this province's labour legislation in industry, specifically respecting jobs and job creation.

Now we know the Minister told us at the beginning about the record of Ma nitoba respect ing work stoppages due to labour strife and so on. It reminds me of my old friend, Jack Horner, from my Ottawa days. One day, he was making some comments about the unemployment situation in Nova Scotia. Someone asked him why it was like that in Nova Scotia. Well, Mr. Horner responded in his usual kind of language. He said that it was because people in Halifax have an inappreciation of their jobs. Well, Mr. Stanfield was there that night and wasn't going to put up with that, and he said that he inappr eciated that comment.

Well, the fact is quite the reverse if that's the fact in Halifax, which I very much doubt. It's quite the reverse in Manitoba. We have a long history in this province of working hard and doing our best to hold down our jobs. I'm just wondering if the Minister has any statistics from anywhere or relative statistics with other provinces that can say just what effect the climate is in Manitoba on jobs and job creation in our province vis-a-vis other provinces. HON. A.

MACKLING: I did indicate in my opening re ma rks the growth of the emp loyment force in Ma nitoba, which has been very hearten ing, the equivalent of the City of Brandon, if you will, I know, in increased population and a very significant increase in the number of jobs. So that is, as my notes indicated, for the first time in our history, over half-a-million employed. MR. J. McCRAE: Well you see that doesn't just jive, Mr. Chairman, with some of the discussion we had yesterday with the Minister of Employment Services and Economic Security when we discussed the numbers of people on welfare in this province.

You can't really have it both ways. You can't say that because of our labour legislation in the province, our employment rate is gett ing better when at the same time, we'r e experiencing unprecedented numbers of people going on the welfare roles. I really don't understand how the Minister can say that and lay it at the doorstep of his departm ent's labour legislation. That's the point I'm getting at.

I don't think the Minister can provide me with the kind of information I'm looking for, but I think it's fair to say an operation in a marginal situation faced with enough difficulties in these times as it is, is also faced with labour legislation that's been brought in by this government which has been denounced soundly in many, many cases. Of course, the positive comments come from the government that puts in the legislation in the first place. The Research and Planning Division, I understand does analysis based on Conference Board information and statistics.

Can the Minister share some projections with us as to where his department sees the employment situation going in the next little while? HON. A. MACKLING: I'm provided with the actual and seasonally-adjusted unemployment rate and employed 2879

Tuesday, 12 August, 1986 by the province and Canada for the month of June, 1986. The actual employed in June '86 in Manitoba, 502,000; in June of 1985, it was 486,000 which was a positive increase of 3.3 percent in that month - that's a snapshot of the actual employed in June of 1986 - 486,000 in June'85; 502,000 in June '86, a 3.3 percent increase. The average in Canada during that same period, comparing those two months, was a positive change of 3.2 percent; so we were . 1 percent better than the national average. MR. J. McCRAE: Mr. Chairman, I asked the Minister to go forward in time, not backward in time.

I asked what project ions his department has made. The Research and Planning Division prepares information on labour relations, conditions and trends, and research and analysis to the department. I'm wondering what analysis could be made available to members of the Legislature that's been done by the department. HON. A. MACKLING: Our department doesn't provide that kind of information, but I would refer the honourable member to the glowing analysis and prospectus, if you will, for Manitoba by the Royal Bank and other . MR. J. McCRAE: I've heard it before. HON. A. MACKLING: You've heard it before?

Well in the "Financial Times," another socialist rag. I've been informed that's libellous. I'll say it's another responsible MR. J. McCRAE: The Minister says he doesn't provide that kind of information to Members of the Legislature. Why not? HON. A. MACKLING: I appreciate the honourable member wanting us to do more but these things cost money. The Conference Board of Canada and a number of other areas do look at the future and make guesstimates.

The Conference Board Labour Relations outlook indicated that in respect to economic growth as measured by real gross product, has been above the long-term average in'84 and'85 for both Manitoba and Canada. The projections for '86 and '87 indicate a continuing strong growth. Recovery from the'81-82 recession has been strong but the recession remains a vivid memory for business, labour and government and is still an important factor in governing decisions and activity. It goes on: The projections have employment growth for '86 and '87 at over twice the long-term average.

That's the Conference Board's look at the future. I don't think we can do much better at this time than indicate to you what the experts at the Conference Board indicate. MR. J. McCRAE: The Minister says that to provide mem bers of the Legislature with research and analysis papers would be expensive. Perhaps he wouldn't mind just letting us have the originals then, and we will just photocopy them and get the originals back to the Minister. If that isn't satisfactory, Mr.

Chairman, I wonder if this type of information will be available to mem bers of the Legislature and mem bers of the public when our Freedom of Information legislation is proclaimed. If it is, then why not go along with our request now? HON. A. MACKLING: Mr. Chairperson, I will make sure that the honourable member gets a subscription to our list. It's the Manitoba Labour Relations Information Bulletin. It's provided to anyone who asks for it and we do have a mailing list. We'll make sure that he's put on it. I think the critic should receive a copy of this. I don't know why we wouldn't have supplied that.

We certainly will make that available. It does provide statistics and a better overview than I give him. MR. J. McCRAE: I'd appreciate that, Mr. Chairman. HON. A. MACKLING: Yes, and the Honourable Member for St. Norbert. I think they should be made available to every MLA, quite frankly. MR. J. McCRAE: That does seem to take us some way down the road, Mr. Chairman, but now that the Minister has told us there's information he doesn't provide, is that the information he was talking about? HON. A. MACKLING: No, Mr. Cha irper son . The honourable member was talking about a look into the futur e, the future prospects.

I don't know that documentation which is retrospective in large part deals with future expectations. I'm advised that it does contain conference board and other institutional forecasts, like banks, like that Royal Bank I referred to. MR. J. McCRAE: Does the department have any employment forecasts of its own for the future? HON. A. MACKLING: No. MR. J. McCRAE: Okay. There's not very much to provide then, is there? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, this area of Research and Planning has spent, or will be spending, $476,700 in the forthcoming year.

What research and analysis is planned in this fiscal year? HON. A. MACKLING: The responsibilities of the branch, and I read those, and what the branch has focused on. MR. G. MERCIER: I've read that. HON. A. MACKLING: You have this? Okay. I'm sorry, I'm given to understand that you have supplementary material but you don't have these notes.

The main responsibilities of the branch are developing information on labour relations conditions and trends in Ma nitoba, conduc ting studies and analyzing information and policy related concerns, providing the department with research and technical assistance, providing development support for departmental 2880

Tuesday, 12 August, 1986 planning, developing and implementing management information systems. During the past year, the branch focused on a number of priority areas.

Major accomplishments were (1) continuing with the development and implementation of a formalized planning process within the department; (2) expansion and improvement in the collection and reporting of labour relations information, e.g., the analysis of collective agreements and the labour relations information bulletin; (3) analysis of needs and assistance within the development of management informatio n systems within the depa rtment; (4) assessment of procedures and reorganization of some branch operations of the department; identification of opportunities for more cost effective operations; (5) preparation of background information and briefing notes on a wide range of policy issues and concerns; (6) provision of research and admin istrative support to the Labour Management Review Commit tee.

MR. G. MERCIER: Is any of that information given to persons or organizations outside of government, other than the Labour Management Review Comm ittee you referred to? HON. A. MACKLING: There is an analysis of collective agreements that is developed by this branch that is furnished to industry and labour unions. There is also a bulletin that goes out quarter ly, providing statistical information to those same groups. MR. G. MERCIER: Could that information be made available to the critic and to myself? HON. A. MACKLING: Yes, copies of those, yes. MR. G. MERCIER: Just a simple question now.

Is any of the other information, will it be available to members of the public through The Freedom of Information Act? I would think the department, by now, has had an opportunity to consider the implications of that Act and how it will apply, not only to the whole department, but to this area. HON. A.

MACKLING: The information that is developed for policy consideration by government, the government asks for specific initiatives, that kind of material wouldn't be the kind of material that we would tender as public information; but a broad range of this material certainly would be and the department is in the process now of compiling information that will be available through The Freedom of Information Act. MR. G. MERCIER: Will the department be preparing sort of a

summary of information that could be available under The Freedom of Information Act or will someone have to schedule? HON. A. MACKLING: We have just established a computerized bank of information this year on collective agreements and we are scheduling the documentation that will be available under The Freedom of Information Act. MR. J. McCRAE: Mr. Chairman, getting on to the topic of the province's labour legislation and, more specifically, some years back there was an important submission produced, the Smith Report, and this report had something to do with the basis for the legislation that came down later.

I wonder if the Minister could make available to me a copy of that report. HON. A. MACKLING: Mr. Chairperson, I could provide the honourable member with a copy of the White Paper which was the public document that resulted. MR. J. McCRAE: Was there something other than a public document? HON. A. MACKLING: There was research done for government that contained subjective analysis and specific suggestions, ideas that were not part of the public document. MR. J. McCRAE: Perhaps the Minister can make the public document available to me and then, upon reading that, I may have further questions at another time. HON. A.

MACKLING: Yes. MR. J. McCRAE: Back last winter, we had a difficult situation in Brandon which the Minister is very familiar with and it had to do with the T.

Eaton Co. and difficulties there with the Manitoba Food and Commer cial Workers Union and the employees, as well as the company, to the point that the council of the City of Brandon got very concerned because of a threat - it was more than a threat - the distinct possibility that Eaton's store in Brandon, which is the main ancho r store in our downtown area, would become something less than a full-line department store, which it had been for many, many years before, and would become a bargain­ basement-type store. Forty-three employees were looking at the loss of their jobs.

Seventeen others were looking at the possibility that their full-time jobs would become part­ time jobs and many of the employees there laid the blame for all their troubles on the first-contract legislation of the province; and aside from all the debate that went on at the time about first-contract legislation and the fact that there's no appeal procedure allowing either side the opportunity to take a dispute further than the Ma nitoba Labour Board .

The Min ister responded to the motion passed by the Council of the City of Brandon by way of a letter to Mayor Burgess, and I will read the Minister one paragraph and ask him if he is serious about this. "Where an employer alleges financial difficulty, it is consistent with universal legal practice that the employer is bound to b ring some evidence of this before the adjudicators determine such an allegation can be acted upon." Mr.

Chairman, at the time Eaton's were claiming that if they were forced to go along with the contract imposed by the Labour Board, that they would no longer be competitive, and they were, I assure the Minister, very ready to make good on the threat of cutting back their operations. I attended the store and saw that a whole floor had been cleared right out. Now I wonder if the Minister agrees that in a situation like that, when an employer claims that his competitive 2881

Tuesday, 12 August, 1986 edge would be damaged, that he should open his books to labour leaders and to the Manitoba Labour Board. HON. A. MACKLING: I want to give the honourable member some data on first-contract legislation so that in cases like the Eaton's application of the Act can be looked at in context. In respect to first-contract or first-agreement legislation, I would like to give some background to give the honourable member an appreciation for the results of this legislation and not just look at one particular case.

From 1982 to the end of'84, the board received 13 applications for first-collective agreements. MR. J. McCRAE: I know all that, Mr. Chairman. I've been told that before, what the Minister is about to tell me. I've read it and I've heard it told to me a few times. I guess the Minister doesn't really want to answer that specific question. HON. A. MACKLING: Well, if the honourable member tells me that he has reflected on the very substantial deg ree of success of first-contract legislation in Manitoba, fine, I understand.

He appreciates that legislation has been very affective in resolving the acrimon y of first-contract negotiation. In some instances, in the past history of this province, we had very serious problems. Those problems have been eliminated. There have been, in its place, a problem, for example, that the honourable member refers to in Brandon, and the honourable member indicates concern that I should write to an employer and indicate that if they are arguing economic hardship, they should be prepared to place that argument in its fullest before the tribunal that will be making the decision.

I don't think that's unreasonable. If an employer says, in essence, that it is not in a position to provide wages that are being sought and bargained for, then it has to be able to place evidence of that, I think, initially, before the workers themselves, and then before the respective tribunal. I don't think that is unreasonable.

As a matter of fact, I believe that we are one day going to have a society where there is much more openness in respect to the benefits tha t flow to employers and the benefits that employ to em ployees, and more sharing of that vital information because, from my perspective, employment is not one sided; it's a partnership. There is an employer and an employee and they must work cooperatively together. In the Eaton's case, I think that the results of the legislation forced the company to negotiate very effectively, or very openly, with the union.

Ultimately, there was a giving on both parts and agreement was finally reached, notwithstanding the posturing that may have occurred on either side. MR. J. McCRAE: Well, the Minister may remember that the final conclusion came when the workers at Eaton's threatened to sue their union and it was only then that the union backed down and, of course, this was just within days of an election call, too; so that you have to bear all those things in mind. I don't think we're going to get anywhere with this particular argument, Mr. Chairman.

But I will ask one specific question on that point, and that is, the Minister was about to tell me how many first contracts have been imposed since the legislation. I'd like to ask, of that number of first contracts imposed, in how many of those cases was one side the Manitoba Food and Commercial Workers Union? HON. A. MACKLING: I'm advised there were 7 out of 21. MR. J. McCRAE: Fully, one-third of all first contracts in Manitoba since this legislation came into being have had, on one side, that Manitoba Food and Commercial Workers Union, is that what the Minister is telling me? Seven out of 21? HON. A.

MACKLING: The statistics indicate 7 out of 21. I'm not surprised that should be the case. I think in the service area is one of the areas that has been the least subject to union organization. MR. J. McCRAE: I wonder if the Minister can make available to me a copy of a list of all unions operating in Manitoba. I understand such a list is available, a labour register. HON. A. MACKLING: That the honourable member will find contained in the labour directory which we will furnish to you. MR. J. McCRAE: Thank you. My colleague, the Member for St.

Norbert, asked the Minister earlier about Affirmative Action, and while the Minister is getting information for me - and I assure him, as far as I can see, none of this would be very expensive for the Minister to provide to me - I would like to know on the Affirmative Action Program, of the four groups inv olved, I would like to know the targets: No. 1, for each group. I would like to know the percentage of each group operating in the public service in 1981, as well as in 1986. This will give members of the Legislature an opportunity to judge for themselves.

The Minister said earlier that things were going very well. Well, I'd like to see those kinds of numbers. HON. A. MACKLING: Now, I certainly will provide that information to the honourable member. I don't want him to misunderstand what I said. I said that in one category, when I was referring to women - and the honourable member was asking about women - that we had made significant progress, I think, in the number of women that have successfully obtained senior positions in government. But I'm not rah-rahing that we've done extremely well. Affirmative Action is not an overnight process by any means.

It's a process that involves close cooperation, collaboration of workers in every area of activity. We have established comm ittees, as the honourable memb er knows, I think that I've reported on that. The committees are in each department and the committees are charged with the resp onsibility of identifying sys temic barriers in the workplace, iden tifying opportunities for Affirmative Action and cooperating together in the process of ensuring the recruitment and success of Affirmative Action in each department. 2882

Tuesday, 12 August, 1986 MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, is the Minister in this dep artment resp onsible for im plementation of Affirmativ e Action through out all government departments? HON. A. MACKLING: Yes, this Minister is charged with the responsibility of coordinating Affirmative Action. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, there was a report earlier today that the Department of Highways are categorizing their employees by sex, physical handicap, ethnic origin.

Is that categorization taking place in all departments at the direction of this Minister with respect to its Affirmative Action Program? HON. A. MACKLING: Each department, through its Affirmative Action Comm ittees, are involved in a process of dete rmining the numbers of target groups presently within each department by self-declaration so that then we can have accurate statistical information on which to base our initiatives. MR. G. MER CIER: So this is being done in all departments? HON. A. MACKLING: In all departments, yes. MR. G.

MERCIER: What if someone refuses to sign; or are they identified by their supervisors? HON. A. MACKLING: It's a voluntary program and if they don't declare, that's it. MR. G. MERCIER: The report I heard indicated that supervisors were requested to turn in this information by the end of August. HON. A. MACKLING: There's no question, but we are asking that the program, in order to assist in program development, we get this information. Department-by­ department, we're asking that self-declaration process be proceeded with and give us the results of that review by a specific time frame.

If the member says it was the end of August, I wouldn't quarrel with him. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, could the Minister indicate how the Minister implements Affirmative Action then? The Member for Brandon West talked about pay equity earlier on a point system. In the Affirmative Action Program, does a person get an extra point or two if you are female versus male, if you are handicapped versus not being handicapped, or if you are of a certain ethnic origin; so that when whoever is doing the hiring - just how does it work?

You have two people with supposedly equal ability, equal skills, equal education, if one applicant is in one of these categories in the government's Affirmative Action Program, do they get the job over the other person who may have equal ability or perhaps might even have a little more ability or training? HON. A. MACKLING: I'm given to understand that the comm ittees in each department set target goals year by year ... MR. G. MERCIER: What do you mean by target goals? Is that quotas? HON. A.

MACKLING: They look at the probable opportunities within that department for internal advancement or recruitment, and then when there is a job position that is the subject of bulletining or board adjudication, all other things - I shouldn't say all other things - providing that a target group mem ber has the qualifications, there may be special consideration given to a target group mem ber. But they have to have the qualifications for that position. MR. G. MERCIER: What are the target goals for this Minister then in this fiscal year? HON. A.

MACKLING: The target groups are looked at from the point of view of what that group is in a percentage of society, then a target is established on that basis. Visible minorities, the target that is estimated is 6 percent; Native people, 10 percent; Disabled, 7.5 percent; Women, 42 percent. MR. G. MERCIER: But women now occupy more than 50 percent of the jobs in the Civil Service. Is there going to be a reduction by 8 percent of women in the Civil Service? HON. A. MACKLING: I'm sorry. Obviously I misread this item on this category, but women are 42 percent now of the ... MR. G. MERCIER: Of what?

The total Civil Service? HON. A. MACKLING: That's the information I'm given. The goal is to provide a more equitable distribution among all categories of employment. MR. G. MERCIER: Just so that I can understand this HON. A. MACKLING: I'm given to understand that this number fluctuates between 42 percent and 50 percent, depending upon the time that the snapshot is taken, that it varies because there is a higher incidence of males in term positions in certain times of the year, the summertime in highways construction and similar things. MR. G. MERCIER: Just so that I understand then.

I was a little surprised by that one statistic the Minister used, that handicapped people constitute 7.5 percent of the total number, does that say of Manitobans? HON. A. MACKLING: I'm advised that statistically there are many more than 7.5 percent of our population that are disabled. But the 7.5 percent are those who are disabled but nevertheless have capacity to work. MR. G. MERCIER: Maybe I missed it. The goal then of the department is to have 7.5 percent of the Civil Service involving hand icapped people, 42 percent women? HON. A. MACKLING: No. 2883

Tuesday, 12 August, 1986 MR. G. MERCIER: What is the objective? Fifty percent women? HON. A. MACKLING: The goal for women is virtual equality with men but a greater mix. At the present time, women are in the lower paid clerical and secretarial positions. MR. G. MERCIER: Then the Minister referred to visible minorities. The goal there is to have 6 percent of the Civil Service. What do they constitute now? HON. A. MACKLING: 2 percent. MR. G. MERCIER: Can the Minister define visible minority? HON. A. MACKLING: Non-white except Native people are categorized under a separate category. MR. G.

MERCIER: What is the goal for Native people? HON. A. MACKLING: 10 percent. MR. G. MERCIER: What do they presently . HON. A. MACKLING: 2 percent. MR. G. MERCIER: How does the Mi nister define Native? Treaty Indian or does that include Metis and if that's Metis, what is a Metis? HON. A. MACKLING: Treaty Indian, non-status Indian, Metis and Inuit. MR. G. MERCIER: How does the Minister define Metis? HON. A. MACKLING: Self-declaration. MR. G. MERCIER: Is that type of program being approved by the Human Rights Commission? HON. A. MACKLING: Yes. MR. G.

MERCIER: I think the Minister talks about this generally but how does the Minis ter plan on implementing this without imposing some form of quota system? HON. A. MACKLING: The whole concept is to ensure that there is complete cooperation within the staff in respect to identifying and realizing the opportunities for affirmative action. It's not a top down process.

It's a program that is to involve workers in each area of work activity, in each staff grouping through their Affirmative Action Commit tee efforts, identifying affirmative action opportunities and in persevering in ensuring that affirmative action does take place with respect to recruitment and advancement of target groups. MR. CHAIRMAN: We should notify the members that the time is after 10:00 p.m. for voting purposes. I assume we wish to continue, is that correct? Does the committee wish to continue - Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: I prefer to . . . MR. CHAIRMAN: Member for Brandon West. MR. J.

McCRAE: Is it safe to say we're generally in the area of Division Adminis trati on, 2. (a), for the purposes of the staff, that they need to know where we're at and where we're going. Considering the time, Mr. Chairman, I appreciate the latitude that's being given at this hearing. MR. CHAIRMAN: Do you want to go line-by-line at this point? HON. A. MACKLING: Or do you want to just pass it? MR. J. McCRAE: I don't think we're going to be a whole lot longer actually so that we might just get to the end and then pass the whole thing if that's suitable to everyone here. One moment, Mr. Chairman.

Under Mechanical and Engineering, I understand the office of the Fire Commissioner now has responsibility for The Building and Mobile Homes Act. A matter has come to my attention that when a mobile home is sold it's up to the vendor to see that certain standards of safety, electrical safety and so on are met and that this comes under the Fires Commissioner's office. Certain orders are issued after an inspection by the department and certain things are to be done by dates that are given. What happens if these orders are not complied with in the time period specified? HON. A.

MACKLING: If the manufacturer does not meet the standards we will not permit the sale to go through. MR. J. McCRAE: In the case, Mr. Chairman, of a used mobile home, I guess the sale from a vendor to a purchaser, the vendor not being the manufacturer, as I understand it, is the vendor's responsibility similar to the situation in Ontario with vehicles where it's the vendor's responsibility to secure a safety certificate for the vehicle? Is that the same type of thing here in Manitoba for mobile homes? HON. A.

MACKLING: I'm advised that if the mobile home is CSA approved then on resale it does not have to be approved, but if it has not been CSA approved, it will require certification by the department. MR. J. McCRAE: Mr. Chairman, in the case I'm talking about, I guess there was no CSA approval, because a permit was issued to make changes in this case and the changes were not made by the deadline stated in the permit. The purchaser is concerned and I have tried to be in touch with the Fire Commissioner's Office and I'll no doubt be trying again soon but, as I understand it, can title still pass to this?

It's not like a real property transaction, but can the purchaser take up domicile in a mobile home thas has not yet been certified? HON. A. MACKLING: I'm given to understand that if a purchaser buys a home that is not CSA approved 2884

Tuesday, 12 August, 1986 and there are deficiencies, he would have to see that those are rectified and then we would certify it, the purchaser or the vendor; but if there's a situation where a used mobile home has been occupied and there has been no certification, that's a matter for adjudication because the act requires that it be certified and it'll be up to the courts to determine who unde rtook what activity and assumed what obligation, I should say. MR. J. McCRAE: I think the problem is fairly simple here; it's a matter of compliance.

We have the rules and we have deadline dates and I think the idea is that we should adhere and comply to the law. I just wonder if it's common place in a department to allow these things to be put off and the compliance not to be made. HON. A. MACKLING: I don't want to inhibit the member in any way. However, I think the honourable member is referring to a specific incidence and it may well be that's a matter for litigation between the parties because of an obligation that one of the parties assumed.

So I would rather, if he has a specific case on which he wants background information from the department, that we do it in that way. MR. J. McCRAE: Yes, I prefer to do it that way, Mr. Chairman. I just wonder, I haven't read The Building and Mobile Homes Act so I don't know what sanctions there are for non-compliance, but are there actions that can be taken to ensure compliance with the act? HON. A. MACKLING: Yes. MR. J. McCRAE: Enforcement provisions. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: While we're dealing with Fire Prevention Estimates, Mr. Chairman . . . MR. CHAIRMAN: Excuse me.

Can we have a little order, please? MR. G. MERCIER: . . . could the Minister assure this committee through the Fire Commissioner that the situation at the Manitoba Developmental Centre in Portage is adequately protected from fire at the present time? HON. A. MACKLING: The answer is, yes it is. MR. G. MERCIER: There's no risk to the inhabitants of the centre in the opinion of the Fire Comm issioner? HON. A. MACKLING: I can't say that there's no risk. MR. G. MERCIER: No abnormal risk. HON. A. MACKLING: No abnormal risk, yes. MR. G. MERCIER: Those are all the questions I had on that.

Perhaps under the Mechanical and Engineering, which is I believe the area where the inspections of amusement rides takes place. I note in the 19 84-85 report that there were 289 inspections and 258 orders issued for remedial action.

I wonder if the Minister could indicate the number of inspections that took place during the last year March 31, 19 85 to April 1, 1986, and perhaps they have the record from April 1 of 1986 to the present time, particularly I guess, in view of the accident in Edmonton, this is a concern; and I'm not raising it because I have any suspicions or have received any complaints about amusement operators in the province, but it is a concern of some people and I wonder if there's been any emphasis on the inspections. HON. A.

MACKLING: As soon as the staff have the statistics, I will relate more fully, but I share the honourable member's concerns, and I don't know whether the honourable mem ber or anothe r, the Member for Brandon West, asked me in the House about this area of departmental responsibility. I've been most concerned about that, particularly the very terrible accident at the Edmonton Mall.

During the course of the recent Red River Exhibition, following so closely after the West Edmonton Mall, I had very serious apprehension about the need for cons tant check ing or adequa te checking of the amusement rides particularly, and we had, during the course of the Red River Exhibition, some strong natural forces; we had strong winds.

Further inspections were made and I'm happy to report that there were no serious incidents, but as I indicated to the Honourable Member for Brandon West, there's a large number of minor rectifications that are required which, to me, confirms the thoroughness of the inspection demands that are made upon the operators. The honourable member asked for some further statistics. The honourable member has before him, on Page 12 , the 1984-85 statistics, I believe, and perhaps he could pen in the 19 85-86 that are not published yet, but he could pen them in. They'll be in the next report.

That's on Page 12 of the annual report. The total number of inspections were 363 - this is 1985- 86. The orders issued for remedial action, 254; the electrical hazards, 95; mechanical hazards, 159; number of rides condemned were, again, zero. MR. G. MERCIER: I take it the Minister doesn't have the statistics from April 1 of this year. I would gather, in view of the concern, that there may have been an increase. HON. A. MACKLING: I'm advised that April 1 on is the heavy incidence of fairs and exhibitions and the inspection is very heavy.

Those statistics will be changed in the next period because one ride was condemned this year, at the Red River Exhibition there were four inspections there. MR. J. McCRAE: Mr. Chairman, we, in Brandon, are happy that the Manitoba Fire College is located there, and I'd like to ask the number of courses offered since the opening of the Fire College, and the number of candida tes. I lost track of the exact date that it did get going. If you have that, that'll be helpful too. HON. A. MACKLING: The number of courses offered and the number of candidates for the courses, yes. On 2885

Tuesday, 12 August, 1986 Page 22 of the Annual Report, the Fire College courses were 147, and in attendance 2,059. MR. J. McCRAE: I'm sorry, I didn't make my question clear enough. I'm talking about the Brandon College since it opened. At the writing of this report, the Brandon Fire College was just nearing completion so you wouldn't find that here. HON. A. MACKLING: Since the college has opened there have been three fire-fighting courses; 15 members in each course, for a total of 45; and dangerous goods handling cou rses every second week with 15 participants in each course. MR. J.

McCRAE: What is the duration of the fire courses? HON. A. MACKLING: One of those three courses is for 40 weeks and the other two are for three weeks. MR. J. McCRAE: How many staff are employed at the Brandon Fire College? HON. A. MACKLING: Five and two clerical for a total of seven. MR. J. McCRAE: That's all I have, Mr. Chairman, this time for real on Fire Prevention. Moving to Employment Standards, I wonder if the Minister could tell us how construction wages are set and what role the Construction Wages Board plays in setting of those construction wages. HON. A.

MACKLING: The Construction Wages Board holds public meetings, hears representation in respect to the

schedule and makes recommendations on the basis of the submissions that have been made to it. The last recommendation was processed but recently. Pardon me? The rural and heavy construction had their hearings, made their recommendations and those recommendations were adopted. Winnipeg has yet to complete. MR. J. McCRAE: Is there a difference between non­ union and union wages? HON. A. MACKLING: No, the wage

schedule is based on the submissions of both the contractors and the organized workers. Generally it is reflective of the average negotiated wage in the industry. MR. J. McCRAE: Okay. Earlier the Minister and I had a discussion about first-contract legislation, so there is no need to go into that again. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Mem ber for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: On Employment Standards, Mr. Chairman, the Mi nis ter ind icated he had some information available earlier. Could he indicate what the employment rate is of young Manitobans as a percentage of adult Manitobans?

He should be able to make that calculation pretty quickly. 2886 HON. A. MACKLING: I'm advised that it is in the bulletin, under Labour Market Statistics. MR. G. MERCIER: Can the Minister indicate how many unemployed youth there were and how many unemployed adults there were? MR. CHAIRMAN: Is the qu estion the numb er of unemployed youth and the unemployed adults . . . HON. A. MACKLING: I know that the Minister of Employment Services waxed eloquent in the House not too long ago on that subject, and indicated that there had been some progress in that area, but I don't have those statistics. MR. G.

MERCIER: Is the Minister directing the Minimum Wage Board to consider an increase in the minimum wage? HON. A. MACKLING: Yes. MR. G. MERCIER: Why? HON. A. MACKLING: The last increase has been some many months ago and honourable members know that the cost of living doesn't stand still. There has always been a concern that the minimum wage should in some way be reflective, or at least changes in the minimum wage should be somewhat reflective of the changes in the cost of living. MR. G. MERCIER: Does Manitoba still have the second­ highest minimum wage rate? HON. A.

MACKLING: I hesitate because I know that two jurisdictions have indicated an increase is being made. I don't have the date when the increase is being implemented. I believe Ontario is in October. But my understanding is our rate is the third-highest at the present time. Northw est Territories is $5.0 0 ; Saskatchewn is 4.50; ours is 4.30. So we're third-highest at the moment. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, just very quickly; I don't want to get into it too much, but a number of years ago there was a report by the Minimum Wage Board in which there was a minority position.

The government adopted, I think it was the majority position. One of the concerns that was expressed was that there should be a study of who receives the minimum wage, with a view perhaps to implementing it in a different way. Is the Minister inclined to undertake that type of study? HON. A. MACKLING: It's certainly an area that we will be looking at. I know we've had representations from some ind ustries that deem thems elves particularly affected by the changes in the minimum wage, tourism and the hotel industry, among others. They've asked for greater lead time.

Certainly, that whole area will be the subject of further consideration and it may include that. MR. G. MERCIER: You're not commiting yourself?

Tuesday, 12 August, 1986 HON. A. MACKLING: Not at this time. MR. G. MERCIER: Would the Minister do this through his department - would he undertake to provide the Member for Brandon West and myself with the rate that I referred to earlier, the unemployment rate of young people in Manitoba as a percentage of unemployed adults, and compare that to each of the other provinces in Canada? HON. A. MACKLING: For what period? MR. G. MERCIER: When can you do it? HON. A. MACKLING: These statistical results, or compilations, are subject to change. MR. G.

MERCIER: To make it fair, let's say you did it on the average figures for the year 1985. Would that be fair? HON. A. MACKLING: An average in 1985? MR. G. MERCIER: Yes. HON. A. MACKLING: Certainly we'll see whether we can come up with that. MR. G. MERCIER: You know you can come up with that. HON. A. MACKLING: These would be figures that we would get from Stats Canada, I presume, and then do an averaging on it. I don't know whether they have that precise information or whether - (Interjection) - They have it? We can supply it, yes. MR. G. MERCIER: I appreciate that very much. Just one other question on this area.

How much was paid out from the Payment of Wages Fund during the last fiscal year? HON. A. MACKLING: For the fiscal year'85 to '86, there was a total of $408,827.56, of which 133,973 was recovered. MR. G. MERCIER: Where does the recovery show in the Estimates? It doesn't. HON. A. MACKLING: No, I guess that goes into Consolidated Revenue. MR. G. MERCIER: That is still funded entirely by the government, as originally developed? HON. A. MACKLING: Yes. MR. G. MERCIER: Is the Minister considering any changes in the method of financing the Payment of Wages Fund? HON. A.

MACKLING: Surprisingly enough, we did have some of the business community that thought maybe there should be an assessment on employers. Given the enthusiasm for the levy, we didn't think that was appropriate at this time. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, I believe the maximum amount an employee can get is $1 ,200.00? HON. A. MACKLING: Yes. MR. G. MERCIER: Which was the maximum amount we brought in when we introduced this in 1980, I believe.

Would the Minister not consider that some six years having passed, that amount should be increased to cover the cost-of-living increase that has taken place over those six years? HON. A. MACKLING: The suggestion is worth looking at; however, I'm advised that sum still covers 90 percent of the claims that are submitted. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Brandon West. MR. J. McCRAE: A lot of statistics have been provided to us respecting the Manitoba Labour Board, and that had to do with applications that came before it for one thing and another, so I'm not going to ask any questions about that.

I'd just ask one question about the Other Expenditures line, at $13 7,500.00. Here we are. There's an increase of $30,000, reflecting increased rates of fees paid to board members and vice-chairpersons as well as increased frequency and complexity of board meetings under The Labour Relations Act. Can the Minister tell us why the increased complexity? Question No. 2, what kind of increase of rates of fees has there been? Is the complexity resulting from changes over the last few years to The Manitoba Labour Relations Act? HON. A. MACKLING: The answer would be yes to that. MR. J.

McCRAE: Right, and the rates of fees? MR. CHAIRMAN: The member was asking what they were and what they've gone up to. MR. J. McCRAE: I take it there is a certain per diem rate that a member of the board gets, and I'm asking how much that's been increased. HON. A. MACKLING: I'm given to understand that the board personnel, the board members, received $50 per meeting or $10 0 per day. Vice-chairs received $15 0 per day or $75 per meeting. That was before the change. Under the new regime, board members receive $80 for the first half-day and $50 for any second half-day or second meeting.

If the board goes a full day, it would be a total of $1 30.00. The vice-chairs receive $300 for the full day. If it's a half-day meeting, it's $15 0.00. MR. J. McCRAE: Do the participants in the hearings from labour and management, I assume for the most part, and of course there are other hearings having to do with the payment of wages, do those go to the Labour Board or do those go to another board? HON. A. MACKLING: I'm sorry, I have to make a correction on those statistics. The vice-chairs, it's $200 2887

Tuesday, 12 August, 1986 for the full day for the first meeting, and $1 00 for the second part of the meeting. It's $200 for the morning. If it goes into the afternoon, it's $10 0 for the afternoon. So it's a total of $300.00. MR. CHAIRMAN: The question was, The Payment of Wages Act, does that come before the Labour Board disputes? MR. J. McCRAE: And employment standards. HON. A. MACKLING: The answer is yes, but generally there's a single member of the board who sits. MR. J. McCRAE: People filing applications, are there fees for the filing of applications? HON. A. MACKLING: Applications for certification? MR. J.

McCRAE: For certification or for any other adjudication being asked for by the board. HON. A. MACKLING: No. MR. J. McCRAE: None? With respect to Conciliation and Mediation Services, plenty of facts are available to us in the annual report so that I won't be asking any questions about that. My colleague has one. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Could the Minister describe how arbitrators are appointed then? HON. A. MACKLING: The arbitrators are appointed by the board chair from a list of arbitrators that are recommended by the Labour-Mana gement Review Comm ittee. MR. G.

MERCIER: Could the Minister supply us with that list of arbitrators? HON. A. MACKLING: Yes. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Brandon West. MR. J. McCRAE: Mr. Chairman, one of the stated goals of the Apprenticeship and Training Division has been to include additional occupations, as I understand it. Have any additional occupations been included in the services provided by the Apprenticeship and Training Branch? HON. A. MACKLING: How many additional? MR. J. McCRAE: Yes. Have any, and how many, and what are they? HON. A. MACKLING: Three: cooks, bakers and parts persons. MR. J. McCRAE: When did those come in? HON. A.

MACKLING: During 19 85. MR. J. McCRAE: Does the department envisage bringing in any more occupations? HON. A. MACKLING: Yes, we hope to bring in some categories in the electronics area. MR. J. McCRAE: How does it work? Does an employer approach the department to ask for this type of assistance, or how does it work that new occupations become included? HON. A. MACKLING: It's a mix. There could be some individual employers who make a request, but trade advisory groups are the main source. MR. J.

McCRAE: Has there been any dialogue amongst the department and community colleges, students and emp loyers to set up a program that would include more occupational groups that could take advantage of the Apprenticeship and Training services offered by the department, ther eby assisting people in finding employment for one thing, and getting apprentices started? HON. A. MACKLING: I'm given to understand there's an ongoing dialogue between the community colleges and the department. I'm given to understand the Department of Education has a representative on the Apprenticeship Board. MR. J.

McCRAE: It seems to me that I think maybe we've got five or six occupations under this program. I just think it's a program that maybe should be expanded, and this would be a way to do it. It would be to have more dialogue than we have now and maybe in a structured kind of way. The experts, of course, know better than me about that, but I wonder if something more structured is something the department should be looking at. HON. A. MACKLING: It is an area that we are going to be looking at. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for St. Norbert. MR. G.

MERCIER: Could the Minister indicate why the Women in Trades Training Program is being eliminated? HON. A. MACKLING: That activity has been transferred to Employment Services and it's contemplated that it will be expanded in that department. MR. G. MERCIER: It has been budgeted for this year in Employment Services? HON. A. MACKLING: Yes, it's included in there . MR. J. McCRAE: Mr. Chairman, Other Expenditures in the Pension Commission, as well as Salaries, are decreased from last year's appropriation. I wonder if the Minister could explain the reasons?

Maybe it's in the Supplementary Information which I haven't had a whole lot of time to look at. 2888

Tuesday, 12 August, 1986 HON. A. MACKLING: The explanation is that the reduction reflects reduced requirements for promotional and informational pamphlets relating to pensions in the province. As well, the 19 86-87 reduction reflects a reduction of $1 0,000 which had been budgeted for the proposed voluntary em ployer pension plan. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, I note that in the explanatory remarks, ther e's a further redu ction , reduced requirements for promotional and informational pamphlets relating to pensions in the province.

Can the Minister indicate whether it will be a sign of another election coming when that commun ications area would be increased again? HON. A. MACKLING: Good idea. MR. G. MERCIER: The Minister indicates it's a good idea. HON. A. MACKLING: I'll accept any constructive suggestions the Honourable Member for St. Norbert may make from time to time. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, for the record, it wasn't a constructive suggestion, it was a cynical comment. HON. A. MACKLING: Then I will just have to indicate that I note the honourable member's concern. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1. (b)(1) -the Member for Brandon West. MR. J.

McCRAE: On Page 12 of the Annual Report for 1985 of the Pension Commission, we see a graph and 1982 we have a number of new plans that year. I wonder why there would be such a significant number of plans in that one year. Would anyone be able to give me an answer for that? MR. CHAIRMAN: What section? MR. J. McCRAE: We're under the Pension Commission, Mr. Chairman. HON. A. MACKLING: What was the question, I'm sorry MR. J.

McCRAE: Just in 1982 - I pointed out to the Minister one day that there was quite an increase that year in a number of plans filed with the Commission, and I just wonder if anyone knows the reason for that. HON. A. MACKLING: There was a change by Revenue Canada in profit-sharing plans, tax reduction plans, so there was an increase in the number of participants in pension plans. MR. J. McCRAE: Bill 32 is before the Legislature and I have a number of questions about Bill 32, but I think I can ask those at committee stage, can I not? HON. A. MACKLING: Yes. MR. J.

McCRAE: So I don't have to ask them now, you'll be happy to hear that, Mr. Chairman. I'd like to move on to Grants. Last year the Minister listed some grants that were given by the department to various agencies amounting to a total of $268,500, when the appropriation was $206,500.00. Was there a miscalculation? HON. A. MACKLING: The explanation is the Unemp loyment Help Centre, which had been budgeted in this department up until this change, has been transferred to Employment Services. It was $62,000.00. MR. J. McCRAE: The Minister refers to that as the Unemployment Help Centre.

Is that the same as the Community Unemp loyment Counselling Centre? Is that the same thing? HON. A. MACKLING: Yes. MR. J. McCRAE: The Minister referred to it as that last year, but are they one and the same thing? HON. A. MACKLING: Yes. MR. J. McCRAE: And now this year, I don't know what all these things add up to, it says $206,500, Mr. Chairman, but I understand there's another $40,000 going to an Unemployment Help Centre in Brandon and that's under Economic Security, so neither of those come from this department then. HON. A. MACKLING: Correct. MR. J.

McCRAE: All right, so is there a grant this year to the Labour Education Centre of $200,000.00? HON. A. MACKLING: Yes, $200,000.00. MR. J. McCRAE: How many years has the government been giving $200,000 to the Labour Education Centre? HON. A. MACKLING: For the last two years and 19 86- 87 -I'm sorry, the current Estimates are $200,000; for two years prior to that it's been $200,000; the year before with $1 50,000, and the first bud get was $1 00,000.00. MR. J. McCRAE: So that covers about four years or five years? HON. A. MACKLING: Yes, this will be the third year, or five years all totalled, yes. MR. J.

McCRAE: Totalling $750,000.00? HON. A. MACKLING: No, $850,000.00. MR. J. McCRAE: $850,000, okay. I don't think I have any more que stions on gr ants. Mo ving down to Expenditures Related to Capital has to do with radio equipment for fire vehicles? HON. A. MACKLING: Yes, correct. 2889

Tuesday, 12 August, 1986 MR. CHAIRMAN: 1. (b)(1) to 2.(k)(2) were each read and passed. Resolution 108: Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $7,848,200 for Labour, Labour for the fiscal year ending the 31s t day of March, 1987-p ass; Item 3. -pass. Resolution 109: Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $4 1,000 for Labour Expenditures Related To Capital, for the fiscal year ending the 31s t day of March, 1987-p ass. Item 1. (

a) Minister's Salary-pass. MR. J. McCRAE: I realize it's after ten o'clock and there's not a thing we can do. Mr. Chairman, before staff run away, all of them, I'd like to offer my thanks to them for their assistance tonight. I realize the way it was handled was a little bit off-the-topic sometimes and we had to bounce around and I appreciate the staff putting up with this and their flexibility very much. Mr. Chairman, also the Minister's had a long day so I'm not going to keep him very long.

I'd like to thank him for staying with us 'til ten to eleven and hope we have a good discussion about Bill 32 very shortly. MR. CHAIRMAN: Item 1. (a)- pass. Resolution 107: Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $1 ,444,300 for Labour, Admin istration and Finance, for the fiscal year ending the 31s t day of March, 1987-p ass. Commi ttee rise. SUPPLY - NATURAL RESOURCES MR. CHAIRMAN, C. San tos: This

section of the Committee of Supply shall be dealing with the Estimates of the Department of Natural Resources. We shall begin with a statement by the Honourable Minister responsible for the department. The Honourable Minister. HON. L. HARAPIAK: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'm pleased to participate in the presentation of the Estimates for the Department of Natural Resources for this 1986-87 year. In observing the proceedings of yesterday and tod ay, I got the notion from time to time that perhaps some were interested in denying me the opportunity to make that presentation.

I would like to make a brief opening statement and, to begin in that statement, I would like to express my appreciation to the departmental staff. I have been a Minister for a short while only, but in that period of time I've been able to observe tha t I have the opportunity to work with people who are professional in their outlook and certainly dedicated. Many of them have ha d to do more with less under bud getary constraints that we are facing. Many of them have shouldered increased workloads in an attempt to provide quality service to the general public, while maintaining resource management programs.

I would like to make reference to a few of the people who have left the employ of the department due to retirement. In particular, I would like to note that the last year marked the completion of the long and distinguished career of Bill Newton as Director of the Engineering and Construction Branch. As well, I would like to pay tribute to two former regional managers who have just retired, namely, Bill Mclean of the western region and Joe Nespor of the Interlake and Eastern regions. In looking at the mandate of Natural Resources, I would like to make the following observations.

Manitoba Natural Resources has a mandate to protect, conserve, manage and develop the province's forests, fisheries, wildlife, Crown lands and water and parks. In carrying out this mandate, the department acts as a steward of these resources on behalf of its owners, the people of Manitoba. In this trusteeship role, the department endeavours to arrive at sound and fair resource use decisions designed to serve the long-term interests of all Manitobans.

However, in doing so, it is faced with diverse and often conflicting requests from various users, including both those who wish to consume resources and those who wish to preserve resources in their natural state. Whenever feasible, the department attempts to make resource allocations decisions in consultation with residents who would be affected and, further, it strives to make these allocations, while attempting to strike a fair and reasonable balance between the various and competing resource claimants.

Manitoba Natural Resources is a major contributor to the economic development and well-being of many Manitobans. The department supports and promotes resource utilization, provides outdoor recreational opportunities and provides for the needs of subsistence users. Recognizing that diverse government programs affect resources, Manitoba Natural Resources works closely with other departments, such as, Agriculture and Tourism. Moreover, the department provides a critical service to protect people and property from floods and forest fires.

In addition to all of these responsibilities, it is charged with conserving the natural resource heritage of Manitobans for future generations. The department tries to achieve a reasonable balance in preserving our natural resources and, at the same time, facilitating their economic development. Having made those references to the role of the department, I would like to highlight some of the accomplishments of the past fiscal year. The Conservation District Authority was established and staffed to make substantial imp rovements in support services to existing and aspiring conservation districts.

In addition to ongoing activities, specific conservation projects were add ressed under the Agri­ Food Agreement and local response, I'm pleased to say, in these projects was enthusiastic. This province, thr ough Na tural Resources, contributed substantially to the preparation of the Government of Canada's paper at the International Conference on Conservation and Development. The World Conservation Strategy occupied the main agenda at this conference. Beaud ry, Spruce Woods, and Pinawa Dam were desig nated as heritage parks.

In additional, several restored heritage properties were open to the general public, namely, at St. Norbert, the Heritage Park; Captain Kennedy Ho use on River Road; and the Lockport East Heritage development site. 2890

Tuesday, 12 August, 1986 The designation of Atikaki Wilderness Park was a provincial milestone. It represents a major Manitoba initiative in setting aside approxima tely one million acres, primarily for a wilderness preservation. In addition, the Bloodvein River, located within this designated park, was nominated and accepted into the Canadian Heritage River System.

Su bstantial impr ovements were made on flood protection works in the Red River Valley communities under the Canada-Manitoba Agreement respecting flood dama ge reduction, and the flood forecasting component of this agreement was extended, with the addition of new resources to enhance commu nity protection. Also, work under the Interim Subsid iary Agreement with the Federal Government on Water Development and Drought Proofing was advanced to a final report status. The related strategies and documents will be published shortly and will be a basis for ongoing water policy development in Manitoba.

The Habitat Heritage Act was proclaimed in 1985 to promote the preservation and enhancement of fish and wildlife habitat. This significant conservation initiative facilitated the establishment of the Manitoba Heritage Corporation. A board has been appointed to unde rtake such tasks as acquiring land and entering into various agreements to protect unique or valuable fish and wildlife habitat. I hope that government funding for the corporation will sti mu late othe r assistance from organizations and individuals.

The Remote Sensing Centre continued to develop sophis ticated technical expertise and to find new application for its technology within the emerging field of remote sensing. The centre has helped to facilitate the development of software for such application as fire spread forecasting, habitat mapping, wild rice crop assessment, and crop monitoring for agriculture. The centre will continue to provide technical leadership and expertise. The centre serves such clients as Statistics Canada, Fisheries and Oceans, the Canadian Wheat Board and Agriculture Canada.

Having made those references to the previous year's achievements, I would like to take a few moments to highlight some of the initiatives planned for the current fiscal year. Manitoba Natural Resources will be completing a management plan for Hecia Island and Grindstone Provincial Parks. In addition, the department will commence management planning for Atikaki Wilderness Park. It is our hope to dedicate more land for parks as identified under the Parks System Plan to nom inate the Seal River for inclusion within the Canadian Heritage River System.

Revised cottage lot regulations have been approved to allow cottage owners to expand their facilities at most locations. For this expansion to take place, it will be necessary for cottage owners to meet environmental protection requirements. This will often require that they install a holding tank or approved alternative. Of particular note, 1986 will mark the beginning of new era for local community participation and voluntary group involvement in the programming of our provincial parks. In this regard we have seen the formation of the Friends of Spruce Woods, the first cooperating association in the province.

My department congratulates the association's mem bers and looks 2891 forward to their participation in the programming at Spruce Woods Heritage Park. Over the past two years, Manitoba Natural Resources has been developing a strategy for removing excess rainfall from croplands. This strategy will guide the department in its ongoing projects for enhancing the infrastructure for agricultural production through much of Manitoba. Moreover, comprehensive policy planning will be initiated this year toward the development of a water management strategy for Mani toba.

The strategy will addr ess the development and allocation of surface and groundwater, flood damage reduction, excess rainfall removal, water pricing and water quality. The department will work closely with all interested groups in this endeavour. Under the Canada-Manitoba Agri-Food Agreement, the department will be expending $1. 5 million on various water control projects. In addition, Manitoba Natural Resources has budgeted $400,000 for the continued construction of water control works in the Cooks Creek Conservation District.

The department will complete the conversion of the provincial base mapping system from an analog system to a digital mapping system at a cost of $3 18, 000.00. This conversion will enable the department to complete all provincial base maps within an anticipated 16 years, as opposed to a projected 600 years through the current analog system. So this, I think, is a very significant improvement in the delivery of maps to the users.

Manitoba Natural Resources will continue its major initiative for forced renewal under the Canada-Manitoba Forest Renewal Agreement and sectoral project, part of which is funded through the Manitoba Jobs Fund. Funding for this initiative will increase in 1986-87 to an approxima te total of $6. 7 million, an increase of approximately half-a-million dollars over the previous year. It should be noted that in 1985 and 19 86 the second year targets of the Canada-Manitoba Forest Renewal Agreement were met and seedling nursery greenhouses were constructed at Clearwater and Hadashville.

Moreover many hectares of forests were improved through silvicultural techniques such as . . . The 19 86-87 Estima tes of Ma nitoba Na tural Resources reflect the government's overall concern for budgetary constraint. Accordingly, my department aim is to provide an acceptable level and quality - not only level of a service but an acceptable quality of service - with reduced departmental staff and fiscal resources. In its concern for budgetary restraint, Manitoba Natural Resources took the intiative of identifying, proposing and implementing cost-saving measures.

My department will continue to examine areas where greater economy, efficiency and effectiveness can be introduced. The department's Capital Program for this year reflects an overall reduction from approximately $14 million in 1985-86, to approximately $10 million in 1986- 87. To a very great extent, this decrease in capital expenditure reflects the termination of two major cost­ shared agreements with Canada. These agreements involve the Canada- Mani toba Value Added Crops Promotion Agreement for approximately $4 million; and the Canada-Manitoba Water Development Agreement for 380,000.00.

In spite of these reductions in shared-cost funding, the department, nevertheless, still included in its budget

Tuesday, 12 August, 1986 several capital initiatives which I referred to in my earlier remarks. Mr. Chairman, in concluding my introductory remarks, I would like to restate that Manitoba Natural Resources wishes to emphasize its stewardship role in managing our province's resources. The department does so while being cognizant that these resources belong to the people of Manitoba. Whenever feasible, the department will make resource mana gement decisions after consulting with Manitobans who will be affected by these decisions.

Manitoba Natural Resources will attempt to manage resources in the long-term interests of all Manitobans. In doing so, every attempt will be made to strike a reasonable and fair balance between development and preservation, as well as between the various competing claimants on these same resources. I hope that my introductory remarks will be of assistance to the members present and I'm pleased to be able to provide answers to questions that might arise. I hope that through the detailed discussion, we can answer most questions that will arise. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you.

The Chair now invites the critic of the Opposition to make his reply, if he so wishes. MR. A. DRIEDGER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. First of all, I would like to congratulate the Minister officially on presenting his first set of Estimates. I listened to his opening remarks. This is the Minister's first opportunity to present Estimates and I've had occasion to possibly deal with Es tima tes of the Department of Natural Resources a few more times, maybe, than he is presenting his Estimates.

In my almost nine years of affiliation in the Legislature, most of my affiliation has been with the Department of Natural Resources, some of it in government and some of it in Opposition. I've enjoyed most of it. I feel a real kinship towards that department, in spite of some of the things that one has to do from time to time. It is not always easy, Mr. Chairman, to be a critic and to always try and look for the things that should be improved on.

Unf ortunately, one doesn't, with this government, even get into a pattern where you can properly get into a relationship with a Minister, because this happens to be, Mr. Chairman, the fourth Minister in little over a year within that department. It makes it very very confusing. The last three sets of Estimates that I've had an opportunity to deal with, it's always been a different Minister. In fact, last year just prior to the Estimates, I sort of had a feeling towards the direction that the then Minister of Natural Resources, the Member for St.

James, was going and, shortly before we got into the Session of course, there were some changes. The Member for Lac du Bonnet then happened to be the Minister, who had a completely different approach towards the department than the previous Minister had. We went through the Estimates last year, and in going through some of the Hansards of what happened in our discussions, in many cases, I found it difficult to be too critical. First of all, the Minister had taken the responsibility just a few months before we went into the Estimates.

But the Member for Lac du Bonnet and myself could agree to some degree on many of the approaches that he was presenting. You know, he indicated at that time and he says, it's going to take about a year until I get myself set and respond to the various concerns of groups, etc., etc., and how he would deal with it. I had to accept that, and it was a little bit more difficult to be critical of some of the things, because it was a new Minister. Well, since that time, Mr. Chairman, he quit, and this was a seasoned Minister of the government. He had been there a long time. He got into it.

He started moving in a certain direction and, lo and behold, all of a sudden for personal reasons or whatever reasons the Minister decided that he did not want the responsibility. I have my suspicions what led to that to some degree. But then we ended up with another Minister, the XX Min ister, the Min ister who had at one time been responsible for Natural Resources, the Member for Brandon East. That kept on for a few months. We ended up with an election, Mr. Chairman. After the election, unfortunately we had hoped that we would be government