VOL. 3 NO. 4 PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD: 3:00 p.m. - 6:00 p.m. THURSDAY, MARCH 9, 1978

Ma::::ch 9, 1978 Tape 86 The House met at 3:00 P.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I would like to welcome to the galleries some visiting students. There are seventeen G~ade XI students from PK - 1 Fitzgerald Central High in English Harbour West in' the district of Fortune-Hermitage. They are accompanied by their Vice-Principal, Mr. Fubert Langdon and also b'y Mr. Max Taylor and Mr. Lawrence Bladen. From Vaters Academy in St. John's there are fifty-five Grade VI students accompanied by their Principal 1 Mr. Clayton Rice, and also by Mrs. Adams, and Mr. Strir:ger.

I know all hon. mei!lbers join me in welcoming these students to the House of Assembly. SOY.E HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: Hor... members will recall that uoon the adjournment yesterday there was a point of order before the Chair, on which the Deputy Speaker reserved judgment. I understand he is now prepared to give his decision on that matter. MR. SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS): Order, please! As han. members will ::::emember a decision was reserved on a point of order that came up in debate at the end of the clay yesterday. Firstly, the point of order is an important one.

Over the years members of parliament have developed the convention oE refraining from discussion of matters before the court. Accordingly a ~asic p~rli~mentary right is limited to some extent by what has been called the sub judice convention. The matter is not therefore one that the Chair can take lightly, and accordingly when the decision was reserved the matter was discussed with the officers at the Table and documentation was consulted before rendering a decision.

The matter raised is not only important, it is also quite a specific one; that is,whether a criminal matter, and I emphasize the word "criminal", when that criminal matter is before t!1e court all as?ects of the matter before the court do fall under the sub judice convention, and therefore are precluded from ~eference in debate ' 25G- I

March 9, 1978 Tape 86 PK- 2 ~~ . Soeaker (Dr. Collins) in accordance with the rules and the prezedents for the Rouse of Assembly. Now in regard to the convention itself ,reference to Beauchesne ::he Fourth Edition, Secti.on 149 , Page 12:' sta~~s. "A member while speaking must not refer to any matter on which a judical decl.Sion is pending." Referring to another sou•ce, another authorit~ Erskine May, Eighteenth Edition, page 361- 362, "Certain ma::ters cannot: be debated, save upon a sutstantive motion. Amonv.st these are conduct of judges of the supreme courts,including persons holding a position of judge.

These matters cannot be, thel:efore: ,questioned by way of an amendment ,or upon any notice of adjournment:." Our otm Standing Orders do not speak di=ectly on this point, but Stc:ruf~ng Order No. 1 states, "In all cases not provided for hereinafter or by sessional or other orders,the usages and customs of the House of Commons of Canada as in for ~ e at the time shall be follc.wed so far as they oay be applicable to the House." Following the f~st report of a S~lect Cc~ttee on P•ocedure in 1962-1963 ~,e Rouse of Commons passed a resolution which se t out the rule in detail.

ALd I quote from a source in regard to ::hat resolution, "This resolut:icn bars reference iu deba te as well a5 in motions and questions to matters awaiting or undar ajudicalion lll all courts exer cising a crimi nal jurisdiction from the moment the law is set in motion by a cha:rge being laid to the tirte when verdict and sen:ence have o~en announced." 257

iiarci··. 9,197 S Tape i~o. 37 Ali-1 DR. COLLI~IS: Our o~""'Il House :1as ~o direct preceden!:s tl1at I can quote or that we that ue have found to quote but I "'oulci recall to c1on. members attention ti~at F.ansard of Haren 25,1977 indicates that where a question of the former Leader of the Opj>ositiou was raised on a matter enquired into by the Chief Justice,~rr. Speaker ruled ti1at matter referred to was sub judice and the hen. House upheld his decision.

Yesterday in putting forNard ar6uments en CP.e point of order, some :·10n. me:.1bers expressed the opinion that the sub judie::: conven::ion may interfere with the civil rigl1ts cf L1e individu.>l and 1 believe it would be helpful, therefore ,u I refer iii part to a report of a special co=ittee of the He. use of Co~ons on rights and ~unities of members s~bmitted in 1977 w;1icn state,; as follows: liThe purpose of the convention, that is t l1e ::;ab ~udlcative convention is to protect the parties in a case waitjng or undercoing trial and persons who stand to be effect=d by li1e outcome of a judicial enquiry.

It e:tists to guarantee a fair trial and tc prevent any undue influenc~ ~rejudicing a judicial decision or a report of a tribunal of ~quiry. It is im?ort~t to emphasize ::hat this is a convention and not a rule.

It is a vc:untury restrai~1t imposed 'vy t11e Hou.::;e on itself in the iHterest oi juDtice ar.d -fair Flay but '"ilic.1 the House is free to disre(lard shouiJ it so resolve." lion. m.eJnbers will understancl, I C!m su~e, that any decision to ciisre;;ard a precedent ::.s not ti1e duty of t:1e Chair, aor indec:::l ti•e duty of r.he Premier or the Leader of t~le Op;::Jo<.L:Lm cr ir.O:e0C. of a.r.y r~e.:.1b.:r. It wuulci i:le ..;. matter for t<•t t1cuse itself and s .... ch 1t:eans \wul<l be taken under those indicateci by the House of ;. .. sse:!bly Act.

I mi;;ht add that the special col!!Jllittee to >1hich I n:1ve referred also states che convention has con.sistently been applied in criminal cases. It is the decision of ti1e Chair therefore ~ i 12.t t;1e ;--oint of orcler cid refer to a criuinal l!'.atter 1 that the matter is before t:1e court followinr; t:1e laying of the charge and t~l~t t:,e co:1r~ :12s not as yet ;:HJ.lle fin~l resolution of the matter. 258 ,JI.-

:lo. 37 AE-2 COLLDS: C:1der <Tel l - est;;.blis!ted ;> r <:cedent s of this iwuse , which i1ave not ueen revoked up to the pres .. mt time. I have to state ti1at t:1e hon. member for LaPoile(Er.i-leary) sh::mld not have discussed tile matter in debate and he •,;as tuerefore out of order. Having come to that decision,I mi;;ht also add that I 1wulC: like to inform hon. :nembers that ~·rhat I unclersta.•d to t·Eo sub j•.1dice is everytl1iu.g that transpires in court proLeeciings from t!-te time of laying of tile charge until th<: final disposition of t he court. HR. :'lEARY: c·lr.

SpE:aker, ci1e petition that I : ave to present invo~ves a federal matt~r, a ~tter that comes under federal jurisdiction. I was asked to solicit the support of tile Fremier an-i the gove=ment in trying to bri!13 about the request as men cioned in tile pray er of the petition. As a matter of f~ct,I believe the people who circulatecl the petition se!lt a CO?Y to the hen. the P1:emier. They asked me to preser.t it i1ere u tC1is hon. i:!ouse. I will read the prayer, Hr. Speaker, anci I Jo not think it will need any explanation at all. I think the prayer of the petition is fairly adequate.

I am sure that hen. mem~ ers on both sides of t::e House '.dll ut1derstand vhat the petitim, is all about 1>1hen I :::aci the prayer. We,the undersigned citizens of Cape Ray, are deeply clissatisfied with the post office serv:!_ccs in our co<&:,unity. The present post office busir.ess is within a business est.,;.blis:E:.:nt, ;,larks store ,anci the post mistress is i•lrs llary :Iarks. He wish to have a community post office with post office boxes etc. for the following reasons:

(1) We cannot get our mail after the post office hours of 9:00 A.N. to 12:30 P.ll. and 1:30 p,:,r. to 6:00 P.X.,l-londay to Friday.

(2) At present we have to frequently ''ait for !"ilail service while the business of the s::ore is complet ed. (3) ~Ie cannot get cld mail while new mail is bei:~g sorted. In fact,on these occasions we cannot even get in out of the •.icether.

(4) TI.ere is a definite lack of privacy 259

.tarc n ~ , 19i3 Tare ::o. 87 AH- 3 cy using t his fa mily busine ss as a pose o ffic e .

(5) Our cCJr.ll'lunit.y has in e:'tcess of 110 !:amilies and th.JS w.urants a ~ost ofiice •<ith oett<!r facilities and more availoh'!.licy to in::oming m 111 . (5) '!'here is need for full-tiJ..J.' empl,yees and a federal post office in our comcunicy . No one caa ~arry on t ~;o or three j obs a t one time . (

i) A g reat number .of families of C11pe ~y deal ..,~ th t:1e post office at Port aux 3asqu e!> and ~ave t o t ravel fifteen kilom etres to i1ave t !:e conveDiences , fac ili ties ar::d pr i\•a cy to do business that should ;:,e done in our o~o<-n co::ou:t ity. ( Z) :·!any of tne citizenry have pllrch;;sed post ~ Efice boxes a t Port aux Basq ues b ~c&us e uf c h~ ubo•e pr oblems and c:t,:s show thei r disapproval of t l!e ?H:sent sysc.o ":. i-:o~o·e ve r, t:hn cor:sens us is ~hat t he se pos t of.~ice oo~<:eo s:Oould be .wnilv.ble in C&re Ray . ( , ~ · ;any tO\ofTIS .S'll:-ollur t :vm ·•u r s .:1ve ... 260

'I'ane ~R :c - 1 :.ec'eral post office in a federal building "'ithin their .:o=•mitv. E.ecause of the reasons listerl that our request he g:iver: you" earliest possible attention. Fe hope that the <~eight of th'e si;::natur.es helm; uill brin~ about a suita~le chan<re to the nresent nredicatrent. ,. .~d t!1e netition is signed 'by 107 voters in the cotnr'unitv of C:arye ".ay anrl the electot::al rlistrict of LaPoile. I ~-10uld '1one, "r.

Speak<:!r, t~at all l'lerniJers of tbe House '"ill give their suoport, esr>eciall v t"-e Premier, ':hey snecifically ,,,anted the Premier to give t'1e petition his supnort because Ca,.e Ray is a grovrin£ corrmunity and t"t-ev are in di r.o need of a ne'" port office. An<! l hone, S:i. r, thrc petition 'vill g~t: t'J.e SU'Dt)Ort - Die! you provir:le a coryy to :~r. Janieson 's office? ~-~. ~:E.A1'.Y: A copy has been sent to ·•r. Jamieson, b•r the tvay. I hope the oetitio'l will get the support of members of both sides of this han. Rouse. Hhile I am on my feet, ''r.

Snea?-:er, I have another petition, an unusual petition. The prayer of che petition objected to moving the liquor store in Port aux Basoues from the main street to t{\e shopping mall. T~1e government "'ent ahead despite t"-e fact tl-.at th:~y h·.et ·! t'1at this petition Has going to be ])rese:1ted, nnr1 a tr~ousand signatures on thr: petition. 1hey ~·rent ahead a:>.yway :_nr:l noved the liquo-::- store. Anrl I Hould lil~e to oresent the petition retroactively, Sir.

And in so doin~, the only thin~ that I can add to it is that the governnent is completely insensitive to the needs of these oeople and ignored the ,.,ishcs of t'J.e people and that I do hope that the Hinister of Public l·lorl-.s 11ill now consider turninf:! t'J.e old 1-,uilclin~ - t'J.e retail outlet on the main street - turn it over to the senior citi<.ens in the commt,nity as tl.1ey have requested. Fear, hear! It is a good irea. \ 261. t t

"·'arch (), 1978 '[1>. SPEI'I<T':?.: ?-'R. SI~!1 1 ilNS: Tape SS rc - 2 The hon. Renber for Eu~geo- Bav d'Espoir. Hr. Spea!.cer, I >vish to support the f:! rs t of the two petitions. I am concerned about the mail. not tJ-:e booze in the comments which just P=ececed me. But very seriouply, the matter of the mail, I recognize it is a fe~eral responsibility but it is certainlv a good opportunity to air it. AnJ it affects a nunber of small communities; by Hay of example, t!:-,e community of r-rey "".iver in my district.

And I atr. also a••are of one other communi tv in nrr friend's district of Green Eay >-There the Und of situation that rr.y ~olleague from LaP·,ile (lfr. :qeary) l·as outlined is on~<oing there too. And just t:> rei::erate t'"o of the points that he has made in speaking to the petition, 6e unavailnbility of mail ,.,hen mail is bei 1.~ sorted or to put it More sinoly, they clm;e the 1vicket 1·7hile the• .· sort the new mail. T'1e wicket is just closed for a half hour or three quarters of an hour and there is no recei~t of mail or no delivery of mail through the wicket until the incol'ling mail has heen sorted.

It does mean that r.he persons who use that service have less than full a·.railabi lity to their mail deliveries. And the other point which ,.,as made at out lack of orb•acy is an important one in those small commtmit~.es. A!ld I suppose, as in the case of Cape Ray and Port aux Basques, so in the case of just about every small CO!"Illunity where you have this type of mail service r"lt 1ler than a fully onerative oost office, you have a situ:~tion •,rhere peo1Jle go off to the adj oininp: large community and ta~:e out ma.il boxes in the larger cornreunity for reasons of privacy.

It is a fairly important issue, it affects many thousands of reople around this Province. ll..."ld I Hould >,ope that the right department of government uoul.-: undertake to take it u~ •~itl'. the fedQral people to see if son~e:thin:;: !:'Ore s;o:tisfactory than this service can be ~.ror!:ecl out for tC!e sake of people in communities like "a'[le Ray, r-rey River :.n my district, and many other co~nities througC!out the Province. ?·~ .• SPE.'\T\J·ry: l)efore recognizine the t...on. '~en~er for L~~ r ::.s:Jcrte ~ it ~~ as ~een ;lr.:n·.-n to r.:y utt~rtion t~.<1t ue !·!ave t~ir.teen you~g IT'.en ~ror1 the !,~,. it~ourr~c School for ~oys visitin_!f; the "~ouse of 262

SP!::\YJ'R: Assemblv '"i th their teac.r.ers, ' 'r. :.Hc.l1ol aP.d ~·r. "eid, and on "hehalf of "!-!on. r.:elJ'.be:s I ··•elcc~"' t'le!". as '-ell to the 1:ouse of Assenb ly. ::ear, hear! 263

:rarch 9, 1978 ~n·r ~ 1 :rn.. SPEAKER: T~e hon. member for Lewisporte. ~lr. Spesker, I rise to present a petition from apFroximately 300 residents of the dist~ict of Lewisporte, and while the petition comes from the district of Le1visporte I am sure it has Hidespread application for all districts in the Province. I ,,rill read the prayer of the petition, ~ir. Speaker, so all me.-.ubers 1rl.ll know exactly what it is all about and then I will make a couple of comments.

"'tle,the undersigned residents of Le:1visporte district, do protest the ever increasing cost of electricity. lie feel the government should move quickly co develop ne>.r energy so•~rces, particula::ly in the area of 110od heating and to that end ••e demand that ~:he sales tax be reooved from 1vood stoves and furnaces as governnents in the three !·!aritime Provinces have recently .;.one. And we demand as \vell that government L~ndertc.ke greater scrutiny of the :lewfoundland Light and Power Company and !le•<lfOu..'1.dl:md Hydro to ensure that rate hikes are justified." Hr.

Speaker, I 'N'.:mt to address myself mainly to the alternate sources of ener~; point in this petition. Last year in t:1e House we saw a large number of petitions coming in asking the governflent to curta~l rate hikes by Newfcundland Light and l'oHer and by :Newfoundland Hydro, and we have seen hearings and so or: so that is basically in hand at t':1e moment. 'tie are sure the Cabinet is going to act qui<:kly l"ith a sharp knife 1·1hen t:1e ti;ue comes. Dut on this alternate sources of et1ergy, !1r.

S!Jeaker, you kno•ll, all members kno•'• that in recent years the cost of electricity has gone up tremendously in Newfoundland. Consequently people in rural areas, ~>ho in many cases are seasonally employed, four.d themselves in a situation ~>here they had electric heat in their homes and consequently during the :ant:er months found themselves .. paying $130, $200 a month in electric bills, far too high for anybody to be paying "ho are 0:::1 minimum i:::1comes as well as seasonally efilployed. ! 264

Narch ?. 1978 Tape :lo. 89 l!R. WIFTE: So a number of us in Lewisporte did some research into wood heating and we found that this year the sales of wood sto7es and woo.! furnaces has increased tremendously throughout ~8wfoundland. Not only throughout ~ewfoundland, :-lr. Speaker, but throughout Canada as well. A;'! IiON. l!ElillER: Hear, hear! :!R. WHITE: Last Spring the ~hree Haritime Provinces, it 1<as agreed at one of the Haritirne Premiers Conferences, that they would jointly drop the sales tax an tvoad heating stove~ 2.nd fu=aces. They did it in P .E. I. , ;:{ova Scotia and i~e" !:.runs.vick. And nm>', ::r.

S;:>eal~er, tlle same thing has been done in Ontario. The Ont..1r:!.a Gover=ent moved 1·7ithin the b.st t1vo months to drop the sales tax on w·ood stoves ancl "'ood furnaces. And there is also a 0ill L-efore the Quebec Legislature at the T'lOrrtent to drop the sales t&.x on wood stoves and furnaces in Quebec. A:'! HON. ~U:l!BER: Hhat? :-rn.. :VHITE: ;.-ood stoves and furnaces. r[R. UICK:·fA.'I: Hood burning furnaces. C<!R. H:--IITE: Wood burning furnaces.

There :!.s a type of furnace you can get now that burns 'uoth tVOod and oil, and that •.•ould come under this as welL So I hope t:1at the ; linis ce;: of Fii1ance, iil the LLpc.omin;s b~1dget, takes a careful look at this becat;se it is an irnpc.rt.ant pcint and our aim, hopefully, is to try to dissuade as matty peo~le as poss:;..ble from ge~ting into expei!.Sive '1eating i;r.pl•lments t;uch as electric heat and oil heat, and hopefully direct them to '"ood, tecause there. is enough woocl being left on the grouncl ilei1incl r:i!llber j 2.cks and everything else to keep every wood stove in :'ewfoundland going.

I also saw a study the other day which shm;ed there was enoug:1 wood in the }!aritime region to keep most of the i.1ous~s going forever more. And leftover r.rnrJC: alone vTould Oe sufficient to Leep r.1ost of the ~.v-ood stoves and furnaces .;oing in :,lewfouncllanJ even if there tJere one in every house. 265

.iarc'1 9 , 1973 T2.pe .;o ·. 89 So I ~<ill present this petiti.ou, ~ r. Spea .:er, a:::d ask that: it oe referre d to t.'1c department to whi ch it : _elates and I hope t h at the gove=en t do.es g:i.ve some seriou..; c nsicieration to thi~ petition, Yhici1 I t~ink is very, very positive . The ~ el:i t ion was individual l y si~me and I have all the i ndivi ' U.'!.l signatures here . '>R. SPEA.'<ER: The bo::t. member for COnception .:.ay Sout'1 . ~lr .

Speaker, I rise co support the p'!t:icion so aoly presented oy our col1eaaue in che :louse :rom i.e•,, Lsporte . \."ld I a:ll 1101: sure if he .l!lentioned the number of ?eople - 370? : :R. . idiT::: 300 . 300 people ~io ~i&~ed the petition and I suspect, :-lr.

Spea!--.er , th<lt 'ilh~t our hen . friend did today and c:"Jose "- o si:;r.ed t:;e petition 1-1ere in face speakin 3 0:1 benalf of =ny, m.a:.:.y c:ho'-lsOl.nds o.: other Newf o.undlanders t.:ho r!lilY noc oe here i~ a petition form today out are certainJ.y here in the sense t hat they have rep~esentacives, members of the 3ouse of Assembly . ~e have lens debated of course the fact hat whe re t~e .,o vern.11ent haci some t ~e a:;o, wisely I t hough t, r em.oved the sales ta.x from oil in t his Prov;i:lce , we felt and scill do t hat: t hey sl-.ould no~o~ , and long since sitould hav e removed th.: sales tax .. from eJe ctric heat. au t they ave ,o i course, · ~ 266

March 9, 1978, Tape 90, Page 1 -- apb MR. NOLAN: refused to do that thus far, thus penalizing those who have electric heat in their homes in a most savage fashion.

Now, we have a situation whereby many,many N~wfoundlanders have never left, in many instances, wood-burning stoves or furnaces of one kind or another and now more and more Newfoundlanders are returning to it because of the energy situation and problem that we have, and so it is that I would think that now that we have a new Mi~ister of Finance that he will not merely leave it to the financial mandarins in his department to decide what tax he should have or should not have to balance the buuget, but that he >lill remember, as he said at the Liberal Convention in 1969, that he was just an ordinary poor little fellow frorr.

Grand Bank. We hope that he will remember that now and remember all of t..he other poor little people who need this sales tax to be removed on the wood furnaces~ and also all wood burners of any kind, and I t:hink that he would be starting off in good fashion with his first budget here in L~is House of Assembly.

So I am sure that the minister will be amongst the first to support this petition so well documented and not enly representing,! believe,those who signed,as the me~~er said,the 300 people all people from Lewisporte district, but also on behalf of all the hundreds and thousands of people who would gladly support it were they here and had an opportunity to speak in this House today. May I also suggest to the hon. minister that he also give consideration to removing the sales tax and not be discriminating or continue to discriminate against those who have electric heat in the Province. SOME HOi\f.

MENBERS : Hear, hear~ 267

March 9, 1978, Tape 90, Page 2 -- apb MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Before recognizing any hon. merr~er I have to come to a decision on the form of the petition and whether it fulfills very specific requirements of the Standing Order. With not a matter of great latitude or great

interpretation I am required to implement the direct specifications of our Standing Orders and it will require five minutes in order to do that, so I shall have to adjourn for five minutes. The other possibility is, because then obviously if other hon. members wish to speak on it, whether it is in order or not in order, would be the factor there. It appears to me that if it is in order there are other hon. members who wish to speak on it.

It would appear the only solution is to adjourn for five minutes which will give me an opportu~ity to examine the petition and specifically our Standing Orders and apply thereto. Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Justice. MR. HICKMAN: This is only a suggestion: If there are other petitions coming, I believe there is one other, maybe we could hear that petition and then adjcurn whilst Your Honour is reviewing the p~esent petition and come back and clean it up. MR. MOR.GAN: No, make the decision fi~· st. lA...R. HICKMAN: All right! I do not care. MR.

SPEAKER: We shall adjourn for no more than five minutes, hopefully. 268

;rarch 9, 1978 Tape ;<o. 91 ~IL1 - 1 ;:r:.. SPEAJGR : Order, please! Standing Orders with respect to petitions in the House of Assembly are of cour3e Standing Orders 90 to 97. Standing Order 90 I think is particularly relevant here.

"A petition to the House shall be presented by a member in his place who shall be answerable that it does not contain impertinent or improper matter; and every member offering .:;: petition to the :rouse sl:all sign it "ith his own hand." It is tl1e mc:Xt part, "A petitior. may be either printeC: or tvritten and if JDo:::e than three petitioners sign it, at least th.-ee si~natures must appear on the page containing the prayer of the petition." And of course included in that is that the pe~ition must in fact have a prayer. The petition must have a prayer.

Othen•ise it is a communication or a letter or any number of things,but in the parlia:nentary sense a petitio:1 u:ust have a prayer. And the format for a petition is as outlined, Beauchesne, page 256,

section 332 and tr~t shows that it is add:.es:o;ed to the hon. House and I will r.ot read the entire s•!c tion, it is

section 332 , page 256 of Beauchesne. So there ~ust be a prayer, the format should be something analagous to ''hat is outlined in Beauchesne, and those are the requirements of the Standinb Orders. A:i.l I ,;ish r:o say here is that either we should amend ou;.- Standing Orders or else hon. mel!:bers, esrecially when they are involved in t:he citing and coll=c:ion of the petition, should do it in accor~ with the rules. 7he rules are there and they are as binding on r~e as they are on bon. members. I do not have a discretion Hhen the rule is quite clear.

So I am not going to rule this petition out of order but I do point out to bon. members that the House really l1as a choice between two alternatives; one, to amend the Standing Order on petitions, or number two, to abide by it. So I woulu ask in future that hon. ~embers presenting petitions do so as required by the 3tanding Order and I make special 269 .._ • • .. ,,,

_larch 9, 1978 :.-:1 - 2 reference to the need of a ?rayer in che petition. T.~e re must ~e a prayer in it . That in facr makes it a pet it ion. Oc}lerwise it is a font of comr.:unicaticn . So I say t ba c for the guidanc e in t h e future of hen . members . I recognize the hen . member f?r Burgee - uay d'Espoir. .!~ . 3IAHONS: )fr. Spe.;lk<!r, I just ~~:meed. to :Jake a point by way of clarifying~ Nr .

Speake r. i :ldicat i ng t hat: - 1.;~en i1e indicates t•e ought to abide cy the provisions I certainl y cannot argu2 :d.tll him on t~1ac point, b..ut is he i:ldicating that co include t h e actual ·,;or ding ;;hie!\ is fairly stilted a:1d fairly Eonn.al, I think :1e l"ill -lJ.Cee, C T i-> he really addressing hil:lself specificially to t he ne.ad to have a p·:ayer contained in the pe:ici on ? !he w~rdin g itself is, i submit , qu ~ te f ormal and qui te: stilted n."\d ?e r:1a!)s beyond th ~ c.r:<ierstan ding of a lpt of ?eople wi1o would want to sign petitions. !!R. S?EA.'{ER : No 1 it would .. ~ 2 70 I

March 9,1978 Tape 92 PK - 1 MR. SPEAKER: not have to b~ in a particular word for word. duplication of any necessary model, but it would, number one, have to be addressed to the House of Assembly, not to somebody else or any individual or any organization; it would have to be addressed to the House of Assembly, and then pray, request, petition the House of Assembly with respect to certain courses of actions.

I think the important ?art is that it be addressed to the House of Assembly because this is w·here it is tabled, this is where han. members speak on jt,and if it is addressed sort of to no one or to any one but the Fouse of Assembly,then strictly speaking it is to that individual o~ to that other body that the petition should be considered.

As I say, I think that is the operative part here; the petition should be addressed to the House of Assembly, and that it must petition or request something as distinct, I would say,from demanding it- because tben you do not have a petition 1 you have a demand- and also addressed to the House of Assembly and not ~o an individual member of it or to another organization or to the world at large. So I say that for future guidance because the rules are quite clear, and if the rules are changed then I do not have to abide by them, As long as they are as they are I have to abide by them, as well as other hon. members.

I am not sure if I had recognized an hon. member before I left o:r not. AN RON. }fE11BER: The hon. member for Conception Bay South. MR. S?F..AY.ER: T!lc han. member for Conc'=ption Bay South. AN RON. MEMBER: No,he sat after the last petition. MR. J. NOLAN: Mr.

Speaker, this is a matter of real concern to me and I am sure other members because of the fact that many people have sent in ?etitions without reference cr consultation sometimes with people in the House or with Your Honour, and therefore I am sure it is not our intention to leave them with the impression that we are trying to provide other barriers for them to overcome. I am wondering, Mr. Speaker, if it is possible for your good offices~or in some way could we ask the press of the Province_ maybe a meeting with you or your 271

March 9, 1978 Tape 92 PK - 2 MR. NOLAN: staff: Is there anything we could do to make sure that this gets across so that as many people as possible will under- stand, apart altogether from the efforts of course on the members of the House of Assembly.

But it seems to me that while I know we have to follow obviously the rules as outlined by you or bring in the necessary amendment or amendments, I am jus't wondering if there is anything beyond what you have already stated, and correctly so of course, is there anything that we can do through the co-operation of the press or the media to see that this gets out to all people in the Province who may be comtemplating sending in petitions? And just a refe-rence to last year's session will indicate how many hundreds of petitions and so on we have received.

I am sure other members may have some valid points to r~ise on this themselves. :1R. Y.URPHY: If I may1 !1R. SPEAKER: I will allow the hon. gentleman, and then I think I will have to cut it off because we may be get:ting something approaching debate. MR. MURPHY: Yes,I do not want to get into any debate, but first when we ent:ered the House, and I speak for myself, petitions were something strange to us all. But there was a form available and what we did we mimeographed,or took off copies.

The front page is the basic one with the prayer on it, and I think it required that there had to be at least three signatures - am I n.ght on that? - on the front page. Now on~e you establish the prayer what follows afterward is quite simple. So these could be processed in your office and any~ody who has a petition could get that three signatures and then the rest is only the list of names. MR. NOLAN: Thank you. MR. SPEAr..ER: ------ To finalize the matter:actually Standing Orders only apply to fifty-one people in this House of Assembly. They refer to the members of the House presenting petitions.

I -have no- authority over-thousands of pe~ent'i.al--petitioners. The - 272 f

March 9, 1978 Tape 92 PK - 3 Mr. Speaker: House's authority is restricted in this sense to the members of the House. Of the Standing Orders, I t~ink the basic one here is 91 (a). And with respect to the format of a pe~ition,certainly I would ask the Table officers to do up a sample format for any hon . member who wished it. l!ut the operative

part is Standing Order 91 (a), and the petitiGn must be to the !louse of Assembly, and it must in fact be a petition, a distinct one, not sor.1e oche r fo= of communication . The bon . member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I rise to support the prayer of the petition presented by my col league the member for Lewisporte (Mr. White), Sir. I think the prayer was probably a double-barreled one; it asked to have the sales tax removed on wood stoves and wood furnaces , and at the same time ask the government to bar, stop,any further increases in electricity rates in the Province . f. ..

··arc~ 9. 1978 Tap e 93 Er:: - 1 The prayer of the petition, ·~r. Speaker, is a very reasonable one indeed AN ;!Otl. HE-':BER: Hear, hear! ''? . ~!EAl?.Y: - and is somethin~ that can be done by t!lis administration uithout to0 mud~ cost or too muc!l inconvenience to the administration or to th~ Province. :•r. Speaker, He c1ave contended for som<O tine that tl:-,ose neople ,.;ho use elect:ricitv to heat tl•P.ir homes and for cooking ;mrposes shoulc l:le exernnt from the sales tax tl•.e same a" t!lose peonle are exempt fran• the sales ta:: who use coal and Hho use O!.l. "Ma:1.y are the times, '-1r.

Sneaker, "e have said in this han. >louse t:1at this is discriminatio-:-t of the ucrst kind. People ·.;ere encoura!:;ed a few years back to heat their hcmes electrically. Everybody <-rill z:-emereber che great campaign. - Eeat·better and cheaper elect~ically. - the great campaign that '~as nut O;:t to encourage people v.>ho ~;ere building new homes to electrically heat their homes. And a lot of these people, Sir, C.id so, and nm• they find themselves in the position ~here they are being discriminated a~ains t r.ts ouposed to people t~ho use oil and ' 'ho use coal.

So I think it is a very reasonable request, Sir, and it is one that tne Prel'lier of this Province promised that he would look into t'~o years abo. On cross-examination and questioning from this side of t~e hon. House, the Premier committee' publicly, >lent on the pul:Jlic record as committing his ad~inistracion to looking into the elimination of the sales tax c,n electricity that is used for heating and for cooking. :~ow, ~'r. S'Jeaker, I might point out that the government have it in their own hands to stop any further increase in electricity in this Province.

Last vear we passed a bill in this Fouse making it compulsory for the Public Utilities Board to hold public hearings involving !·!ewfoundland Hydro on any request that they tr.ay uant for increases in the electricity that they sell to the :~et~fot:ndland Light and Po, ler r:cll'n?nV. :;ut, ··r. Speaker, anrl the c-ig but is this, that the Public Utilities Board only go throu1'h the motions. 273

?>!arch 9, 1978 Tape 93 EC - 2 ~ !R. NE.'\RY: They hold the hearings and they listen to evidence, but the final decision, }'r. Speaker, rests :!.n the !'lands of the .e;overnment, in the l-tands of the I.ieutenant-r.overnor in Council, which is the Premier and his Cabinet. The final decision rests on the 11th Floor of Confederation Building and not dm·;n in P"ilip Place <ii th the Public 1'tilities l1oard. They can make reconunendati<ms. The government cannot increase on any recommendations that they :eake. but th.oy can decrease any recommendations or wipe it out altoget"1er.

You are debating the petition. ~o, we are not debating. I am me;:ely pointing out for the benefit of the !Jeople of this Fr•wince tr.e procedure, and the procedure is the Public T.ctilities Board under an net :"e passed last year that has no teeth in it, the Public Gtilities Boa ~d merely goes tnrough the motions - holding hearings, taking evidence, and it comes under, I think, my hon. counterpart, the Government Rouse Leader - I believe the Public ~tilities Board comes under my han. friend.

And my han. friend - I have reported to the "ouse but - They are responsible to the :louse and the minister answers to the '.louse for the Public Utilities Board. And the minister, I believe, can confirm tvhat I am saying, that the final decision on t·rhether or not there is roing to he an increase in electricitv colleagues in t"e r::a~'i:J.et dot,-:-~ on the ~th "~'loor. ,\nd :!.f there is an increase in electricity, ~ir, it can he bla~ed not on the ~ublic ~tilities :loard - as I said, that t·cas t~ pUT!JOSe of pnssing the act, so tlcat the han. l'linister and the hon.

Premier can ~>:et up and say. 'Oh, the !'ublic Utilities !'card recom:nended it. ' \-/ell, they can try to pawn it off on the Public T.'tilities 13oar<"1 all t~ey like, ':>ut the rlecision rests with the ~overnment whether or not there is P,oing to be ~n increase :!.n electricity rates. /m.r. the reA. son, "r. Speaker, t"at the ('OVernment ··rill <:;a ctlong •oi t'l. this, ~rill "erely ruhl,er stamo it, is } ece.use the . '274

··arch 9, 197~ r.c - 3 cost of elect r icity in this Province was alwayi subsi~ized out of general revenue, and ~~e gove~ent within t!le past year decided that t'ley ;•ould ret t-ad: the ceficit all in one cr~c·~ instead 1 as ·.;e sugsested,it be spread over t.. perioti of ei~ht or :en vears . They ~ant to wi~e out t'le de ~icit L, one yea r . .\nd t~at is rather cruel, Sir, and it is goin~ to cause all ~i nds of ~artls!'lin for the people of this Province . •\.nr the dt•indlin~ numller of taY.Pa>·ers that lite !•ave left in this Province, it is li!tely o;o "lUSh t""eP O\."er on welfare, because they 1.;i 11 "i~ure 275 . I

:larch 9, 1978 Tape No. 94 NH- 1 :·:R. ;mARY: they would be better off if t!lcy gave up their jobs, they cannot cope, and went o-.rer on >velfare. So, Hr. Specker, it gi•res grc~t pleasure to support the prayer of the petitiot:. that >vas ~o ably presented by my hen. colleague and I do hope that members on either side of this House will speak on this petition !Jecause there ::_,_, a forty per cent increase in electricity :1anging over the l: eads of every taxpayer, evcry customer of HeHfour.dl=d i.ight and Fewer Company in this Province.

And if that forty per cent goes through it is the government that is to blame and not t;1e Public Utilities Joard. llefore I recognize the hen. member for St. Joim 1 s West, it h3.s been draw-n to my attention that we have a number of visitors fr:'m grades seven, eight, niue <:.nd ten, from Our Saviour Zing High School in Southern >!arbour. I know hen. members join me in welcon;.ing th~l as >;e2.1. S0'1E BON. ~JEH!l.ERS : aear, hear ! :lR. SPEAKEF.: The hon. ;::ember for St. John's West. DR. a. KITC:IEN: Hr. Speaker, I rise to support this petition and tc congratulate the speakers so far.

T~e point that I vish to make is that presently electricity rates are subsidized by the Province. The =re people who convert from electric~.ty to weed, the l!lDre noney the government will save. And therefore it is a good in"estment i.1 my view for ti:J.e sales tax to be removed from these stoves and furnact.s. The government will b'O better off fi""ancially anc the people will be better off. SOHE liON. HEHBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Hinister of Consumer Affairs and the Environment. MR. ;·!l.i1U'llY: Mr.

Speaker, I rise as one perhaps who receives more representations about prices than anybody else in the House,being 276

::rarch 9, 1978 Tape Ho. 94 :m - 2 l·lR. HURPHY: :Iinis ter of Consumer Affairs. l-Ie all have great SJ"'l':>athy for what is hap?er.ing '~ith prices of everything generally. I do not Ha"::t to get i>1to the debate on Hydro or on the P~blic Utilities Board. I do not think it is a debate •·;e are talking about. But on the first part of tl,J.e petition where the han. gentleman referred to wood burning stoves and remove the sales tax, I think th~t is a very co~endable thing to suggest but in St.

John's Cer.tre 1C<here we have not cut a birch junk for perhaps 300 years on i3arter's Hill, <~here r,;e burn mostly oil, would everybody support the fact too or ••auld government be in a position to remove the sales tax on oil burning stoves, on every other type or just on ,yood1 l.:R. \EITE: ------ Alternate so•1rces of energy, wood. Just on t·rooJ. Sc the peo?le in t:he urban areas would be prejudiced against and they would still pay the sales tax on, or get your That is crazy eh? Because it does not appea::. to the member. \Jould you represent St.

John's Centre and come in and have it removed on wood and not on oil. I think we all represent people in this House. There 1~ust be half t;1e :louse representing urban areas, you know. :;r,.. TI.IG::!T: Parasites. I JlL l ![;RPHY : Titey are not parasiteslbrother. They are hard working people. And if you think the St. John's l'evple .1''' ..>o.rc.sites I beg to disagree wi·~h you. Ilut I do not want ~o ;.,;e t into a deb ace, Sir.

All I \17ant to do is put the position clEar, that any government that imposes a tax they impose it squarely across the uoard and not because SOQeone has wood availal.lle on t!1eir door steps they should get something and someone else who might have to go miles and r. perha?S uot be ai:lle to get it at all, why i:;npose a tax on them for oil or anything else? l·IR.. SF"ZAKER: ------ The han. memb~r for Trinity - Jay de Verde. 277

:larch 9, 1978 Tape ~ l o. 94 :~ :1 - 3 :1R. F. ROl-lE: Hr. Speakar, I beg leave to present 'l. ;>atition, actually t•.;o petitions, Hr. Speaker, on behalf of 356 pecple of He.,r::s Desire, ~earts Delight and Islingt<:m, and 100 people of the ~ommunity of Hearts Content and I am going to present both of ::he petitions at the same time, Hr. Speak~r, beca~e !:hey relate to exactly the same subject. The prayer of the petitions, Sir, the first petition is as follows: "We,the undersigned residents of llearts Desire, Hear::s Delight, Islington, very strongly protest your decision to disallow Dr.

Fung Leung, Winterton, to dispense drugs to the residents of these co=unities as in the past. ~Je know from experience that drugs purchased fron a private ;>harmac:• cost forty to one hundred per cent more than drugs purchased from a general practitioner such as Dr. Fung Leung. Since it does not effect the residents of ;.Jew Perlican, Winterton, Cavendish, Whiteway, wilo are also serv~d by Dr. Leung, we feel that your decision is discriminating against the residents of Hearts Desire, Hearts Delight, and lslington who are compelled to purchase these drugs at the pharr.~acy.

If the residents of nearts Content \vant a drug store in their community that is okay by ~s. 3ct why should the residents of Hearts Desire, aearts Delight, Islington, be forced to have their prescriptions filleC! by a private fharmacy at a much higher cost. A rough estimation shows that a private pharmacy must '!!lake $35,000 to $45,000 annually to pay the cost of wages, taxes, rent, etc., in order to stay in jusiness. We feel we are being ripped off by our very own government by being forced to patroni2e this private enterprise. 278

::.arc!J 9, 1978 Tape ~o. 94 ''' l - 4 !IlL F. ~OiiE: lJe also understand that this pharmacis t will be working on a five day a 11eek basis an•i t•ill not be availab le ~ n t~e weekends . ·rhat a person gett:!.ng a presc ription from Dr . L~ung may find it necesszry to have to wai t t wenty-four hou rs t o sixty hours to have t hei r prescription fllled a t a pri..,.a te pharu:a cy is no t very convenient for the person concerned . !here is also the ~a tter of d~ys off . Dr.

Leun g 's days off and the ?harmacisc's cays off may very well not be th e same days , which wHl cause a t leas: a et~ent y- fou r !lour wait to have a prescription tilled . The undersif5ned request tf.at t his decision be given every careful consideration befo re :ilaki:Jg i t law." :lr. Speake r, I will not read t he ?raycr of the secor.d pe titi on because it is very sicilar. :·!ow, 51:-, this is pt·obably one o f th e most volatile :'279

March 9, 1978, Tape 95, Page 1 -- apb MR. F.B.ROWE: and controversial issues in these four communities. And the reason for that is that the majority of the constituents appear on the surface to approve of the concept and support the concept of having drugs dispensed by the doctor, and they are against having the drugs dispensed by the drug store.

Now far be it from any han. member of this House to speak out against priva1:e enterprise in a case such as this. ~~d there is a law, I understand, where if you have a doctor in a community and you have a drug store or a pharmacist in that same ·the doctor 1 obviously, cannot dispense druqs. Unfortunately, we have a grey area here. We have a doctcr in Winterton, a drug store in Heart's Content, a number of communit~es in between and the order has been given that the patients must go to the drug store in order to get the drugs.

Now, Sir, there is a lot I could say on this 1 and I have been in consultation with the Minister of Health and the Deputy Minister of Health on this, and it is unfortunate that I have to bring this matter before the House of Assembly because it involves the actions of a doctor and the actions of a pharmacist and the people are not being satisfied.

I would simply ask the minister if he would be kind enough to bring the Medical Association and the Pharmaceutical Association together immediately in order that both organizatior:s can consult with the doctor in question and the pharmacist in question and try to get better co-operation between both so that the residents of these four communities will get a better service both from the doctor and from the drug stcre or the pharmacist. Sir, I do support the prayer of the petition. However, I do feel that what is really ·., 280

March 9, 1978, Tape 95, Page 2 -- apb MR. F.B.ROWE: required here is more co-operation between the doctor on the one hand and the pharmacist on the other. I would ask the minister if he would speak to this particular petition with a view to bringing the matter before the Medical Association and the Pharmaceutical Assocfation and try to get the two people in questio.n to resolve the problem. Because, Sir, if this problem is not solved within the very near future I can assure you we are going to have something very close to a riot occurring in these four commu.•1i ties.

So, Sir, I ask that these two petitions be placed on the Table of the House and referred to the departments to which they relate. MR. SP:SAKER: The hon; Minister of Health. Mr. Speaker, just a few words with regard to the petition which was just presented by the hon. member for Tri~ity - Bay de Verde. He and I have had, I would not say several discussions, but certainly we discussed the problem more than once. It is really a complex problem and one which will have to be lo<Jked at by the Medical Association, possibly the Medical Board,and certainly the Pharmaceutical Association as well.

I have given him the under- taking i:1 my office and I will give it now in the House that I will endeavour to get the appropriate groups together and see if there is some way we can come up with a solution to the problem which will be in the interest of all concerned. ·.. 281.

-- JIL --- :.e.rcn ') , ... 973 'rape 96 Al~- 1 the non .. ctini s ter of Justi c e . Pursuant t o the provisions o,f Si!ct:ion t.:;.::

z) of thP. Financial Admil'.is trllt ion :\ct , I tai>le inf ormation relati"e t o or a s t at:t'.ntent of demand loans fo r tee pe r iod .Febr <lary 2,1977 - !!arch 6 ,1373 and n state!!lent of temporary i>orr o,.,-:U;z:; by t he Provin·~ e of >·:ewfo uudlanci Treasury i3il l s for t:1e pe:-iod Fell rua r y 2 , 1S77 to ~r eb. 6 , 197~ . HE.. 3PE:'1::"R: Ti1e :ton . :linis tc.r of Cons uw.!:!r ,!.£fai rs. :·rR. : RPEY : I ask lea ve to t able t.he regulations p~;. r tainin:; to c;te Mortza::;e. Bro ker s Alile.ndmen t :~ o. 2 Act re~lacions 1977. : :i .. SP EAK':R: iiou . :·tiniste r of Social Service s. :·lr .

Speake . , I gi\'e a otic e t ha t I •.Ji.ll on :omo'l:ro•.r ask leave to ll! trcduc e .... bill "An Act - ::R. SPEAM:R: Jrder, ?lease! !Jot.s tue h.on . m:i.nister have leave t o revert to Notices of ~.ot i on? SOME HOl'l • MEMBERS : Agre e d . NR. SPEAKER: A,zree . The hon . minister. HR. BRETI' : ?lr . Speaker , I giv e uo t i ce t .a c I will on ~omo rr o·"' ask leav e to i.1 trod uce a hill ",,n Act ·ro A:"~end The Acioption Of Clt:\: .. ~r en A.:: t . .L ~72 . " :·!R . HUR7il'! : MR. NEAR'!: ~iow:;e end f in MR. MURPHY : t-!R .

BRETT: B t t ha t ha· been int r odu ced 1 ' Chat: lie . 1 •Jell, why do )'OU not sp end so:ae timE> in r.:~e out ;.:'mt is so in .... or. ? He j ust got back from Ottawa . I got: some money this time. .... 282

:t..J.rch 9,1973 Tape ;;o, 96 ORAL. QUESTIONS ;.[R, SPEAKER: The hon. member. :m. CAiTiliNG: A ql'estion for ti1e :~on. Hinister of Health, r<?.fen::i.Ilg to the mi:1ister' s meeting with the 3uriu :?eninsula :!a spital G:o=ittee and others, Would the minister inform t~e :louse if he indicated to ti1at committee, to the Chairman of the cor.WJittee or to any member uf the committee~or to any ather by phone c~ letter t ~ 1at should the Eurin Peninsula district hobpital becc;:r"" :1 .:z.-1lity the :·ler.~orial ilospital at St.

Lawrence and th,~ two cott,ge hospitals ac Buri~ and Grand Eank would be phased out completely? lion. Hinister of Health. HR. H. COLLINS: :::::. Speaker, in respcnse to the hon. member, I Jicl i1avo: a meeting witl1 a delegation of concerned inclividuals from his district. I have also had ~onsiderable t:orrespondenco: fron other- peo'.'le of the Burin Peninsula area with regard to what r,;oul.i ue the position of the government in the event t:..at a ne•v regional he. spital was built at South Pond: Hhat would be the government's position~ what' would be the ~•plica~ions for the existing huspitals in Burin, in St.

Law-ren•:e and Grand B:;.nk ? Cl,.;r response, Hr. Speaker, to that question has been this: If aud wheu a new hospital is built in So1..oth Pond, a regional hospital, then it follows that the services, the jn-patient services which an: now pro·rided - and I repeat, Nr. Speaker, the in-patient services \l::ich are niJ""' provideo., acute care ty')e services,if one wants to, "'~ic:1 are n::lw provi.l<;!cl in Gra:ld llan:< and St. Lawrence and h1.trin \Till for all practical purpos.3s disappear and those hos!Jitals will becone really outpatient facilities with lab and X ray facilities and LO doubt doctor's offices.

But from a point of view of in-patient, acute care services, if tho.,.e services are to be pro·.ddecl in a regional hospital then it follows that t:;ose services will not be provided in the three scaller hospitals. MR. CANNING: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. 283

A suppl~entary. I have a further question which I consider a supplementary to the hon. ~inister of Justice and Finance. For the information of tha House,woulci tl1e :ainister verify or a.eny that ne has by insinuation or indication or by an eo~hatic statement conveyed to ari.y zociety or club or r....l1Y other zroup or t..:J c: .. uy constitutc.t.t in 'lis <listrict that tile govermnent 1 s comru.ittecl re3icnal hospital for uemi..:er for i!uriu-Pl~centi~ West c.h.:.rinb ti1e prcvi..."Lcial elcctiOIJ. of 197.J? 284

~larch 9 , 19 78 Tape No. 97 1'M - 1 :·!R. SPEA<~R: The han. ~linistel:' of Finance. Mr. Speaker, my coll~ague, the hon. ~linister of Health, most clearly articulated the !lOSition of the gover=ent '. 71th respect to a regional hospital <:>n the Burin Peninsula. I sat in, in fact I tvas the only bon. member of this House from the South C:oast t>ho attended the meeting of the committee from the hon. gentlemar.' s district ~;ho came in, tile [wn. f,entL:man "as in Josten, the hen. membe1: for 3urin - Placectia \lest C·Ir.

Canning) ~;as in Bcston at the time~an:t I met tdth this co;naittee from his dist:r ict prinarily and they asked u:e what the situation r;as and I said, "As Hinister of Finance I cannot indicate •-That t,;ill be in this year's Budget Speech.

Ls.st year it •.vas ·;ery cle.a.r that t.:e aid not have the finances to build the bospital and if you a ·re as L<telligent as I :mow you are you '.viJ.l see that every government in Canada is not~ subject to very ser::.om: fisca .l constraints and obviously I am not going to be umnse enough to mislead you into believ;.ng there is more money available this year thar. there was last." And I think that every realistic and responsiJle and interested resident of the district of Surin - Placentia \Jest who actended that meeting was ver)' apl>reciative of what they called the frankness of the government's position as it was ~nunciated. ~ 1 R.

CAl·t:HNG: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. ~!R, SPEAKER: A supplementary. ill'. . C Al.'r.:<I::G : In my <;ues tion I a.sked i1ir:1 did he convey to any society or gr<Jup or any constituent in his djstrict that t :'le government committed regional hospital f o r the 3ur::.n Peninsula would not oe built? I know the answer to that, Hr. Speaker, but I woula like for ~he minister to aus~.;er here. MR. FLIGHT: Answer the question,boy. ' 285

r:arc h 9 . 1 9 78 t!R. SPEA;CER: ~~. HICIG~AN: Tape :<a. 97 :1~! - 2 The ;1on. :Jinister of Finance. To my knowledge, Hr. Speaker, I have not t3lked tc any society most assuredly, or any organization or any municipal council.

From t~me to time residents of the Peninsula hav~ come to me "nd said,i£ I meet them some Hhere, "Do you think we are going to get a hospital this year or next year?" And I ca1moc vouci• for every answer I have given but certainly I bave never held out any hope or anticipation that the financial position of the Province would suddenly es::al.:: .te to such a desir:J.ble degree th:J.t we would have all the money necessary to build hospitals. 3ut if the hoc •. gentleman says die!

I say to Jo~m Jones, I do r.ot kno>;. ::: :.annat recall and if I did I think I might remember it~ but it has been '.1 con: t:mt st•bject of cliscussion and questioning ever since I have been elected to this han. House and if I may add that I seem to get more c;ues ti.ons fr..:Jm the Grand Bank - St. Lawrence area than from maybe that is because t:1ey are in !IIY district, ::ather than in the district of Burin - J'lacentia 1>'est.

And I have no doubt at all where the people over there stand, as has been so clearly set f .Jrth in the petition sent in by the Town Councils of Grand Bank and the T0wn Council of Fortune to my colleague, the han. Hinister o:: Health. They wi.ll no!: tolerate any downgrading in their hos~il::al at Grand Bank. And I W..:Juld suggest that St. ~awrence !!l•Jst assuredly wten you bear in nind the reasons that The Ll..mericans put that hospital there. That is right. And that is another reason why the peo?~e of St.

Lawrence will not tolerate any monkeying around with any sort of plan that '.-iill affect their hos?ital that they so H~ . NEARY : You had better talk to your colleague. that they so justly deserve ,] and ti1at t h ey so justly earned and that the y are so e:1.titled to keep in its present s~:;te of i1ealt h care. .,. 286

:iarc;, 9 , 1973 :r.t. :i.:.\R'l: :-tR. :n:c&IA:I: ~. C.'..'\.m~G: ~IR . S:?!::! .. '<E:t: :'ape ~io . n :r.! - ) is going to be .:1 medical clinic. ::::f and when my colleazue ssid, if anc •;~hen . :!r. Sreakc r, a final supple=ttary . The bon . -:te:lber for Buri:l - Place::ttia :-lest , a fin.'ll :>U?!'letaenr.ary . publicly c;,e allegati ons contained in :~estercl.ay' s IJpi!·: NI?~<S J.gai~st hiu.? ik1es ;,,. j nte:-.d s :nt!r.., ::La t !tey sre ~founded a~c untrue? l~ . SPE.:\KE:t: Creer, please ! I ;Jill remi : t:he :totl. l:linis ter to answer ic .

I will give my ruling .1nd c:,en I ·,•il l allo t/ C:te :1on. ::rinister to >nswer it. it ap?ears to me t~at the c:;u;!Stions ::ave t~ l;.c in t !.e -tre.:; of a ::li:'lis:er ' s rcspon.:li:,ili::y an~ accouncn:,ility ir: tile iiouse. aut to ::equire someone to ans11er wi t h r=:s~Ject co so=:~et!t~.; e:-r:raneous 1 1'nat a person ;.riting in tile raeiiSpaper !!light have inter;>reted ,,..,oal.d !le a different matter . Th.:lt is my understandi:'l~ of the rules of 3e&ucbesne . -.:e;;ly sc he !'lay . .m.

RI CiC:A.'l: T:te bon . minis :er :1as state:i he :dshes t o I will answer that question by saying that I c:o:tcur one hundred per cent 1.-ith the editorial which appeared ln t!~e ~ :arch 1st . ecii~ion of t ile S t. ,John's Dnilv t!e•~-s, denJ.inc} w!rh c;, .. regi~nal !lospi tal on the .>urin i?eninsula . 287

:!arch Cl 1978 Tc..pe f)A C'C - 1 the final su;:>plementary. It does not preclude the ;1on. gentleman from coming back to it later on. The hon. member for LaPoile. ~<r. Sr>eal:er, :ay question is directed to the '1inister of Fealth.

It is tr.are of a general nature, Sir, in connection '-'ith health facilities and health services in this l'rovince. \·Jould the minister tell the Clouse, in vieH of the reference in the Throne Speech to restraints and the hints that the l'!in~ster has been gi··rtn)' outside the T·~ouse he fore the House opened about irn!losing a deterre,_t fee or a fee for serviC'e under ''CP - in other '~orrls, to allow· t~e doctors to charge for so rany vi~its - does the government i~tend to g:o a'lead •.;ith this plan this year?

Could the minister, in ot'cer vor~s, confirm C'r deny Hhether there is going to be a deterrent fee or a fee for service slapped on ''CP, on the people of this Province? ~~. SPEI'~'U:R: The ho;'l. ~linister of Health. ~!R. H. COLLINS: !'r. S?eaker, the bon. member knm.;s full Hell that that is a budgetary item. It is not something which t'le X!inister of Health decides, and the llon. member •dll have to vait the same as other people will have to wait to see exactly what the ~udget i!lclicates in that particular area. That is the only ansl-ler I can :;i '"" , ~'r.

SpeakP- r. foJ.lm·red l>y the hon. member for Baie .Jerte - 1-l'nite Bay. ~'r. S;Jeaker, I l-lould like to address IT"f quest::.on to the }'inister of :'isheries. Will the minister, JAr. Speaker, explain l-l~lY an existinr, !:alt fish plant in Cape Broyle,l-lhic':1 has changed hands or :!.s in the process of changing hands and can employ from fifty to sixty people, has been refused a fish processor's licence on ti·JO occasions even though the fisherMen in that particular community have had :o dL'Illp fish over the past mur:ber of years? "r.

Speaker, the matter of issuing licences for fish rrocessing p~.ants is no,.; un<ler revie•J bv the 288 ~· i

Tape 0 P. Department of Fis"heries. ~-!e have solicited the 'J.elp of t~e ?ishertn€.n' s l'nion and the industry to sit do<-m 'nth people in the Department of T'isheries to come up '·'ith guideliaes that we will be follm·ring in the future ,in the issuance of 1.icences for fisn clrocessing plants. l!it':J. res~ect to the nroposeci ope::-ation :.n CClpe '>rovle, t~u~re is one thing, ~·r.

Speaker, that ue !l!Us:: be very ce.l.t:!.cus Hith, l:!!ld th2t is not to allaH other nJ . .e.nts to ~e .:eopardizeC: J.,v t'le issuing: of licences to OP'!r2te addition~.! ple.nts :!.n ,1re<s <·:here there is only so T"!Ucl--. fisl1 to go arou11d. for exar.mle, in the r.ane ~rayle situation '"e ''ave a letter sigDed by the l'resident of 'Cor's rove 17ishing, :'r. ':art ire I)' "rien, in <1'-lich he outlined t".e situation L1sofar as his plant is concerned an~ its c'.ependency on the •:ish caught ~'v fis:1err.en in the !;ape Broyle area.

"r. 0'Sri?.n has pointed out in 1:is letter that at least 47 per cent of the fish nut t:<rough their plant in Tor's Cove comes frorn the fishermen in Cape 'Jroyle. In fact, sixty people from Cape Broyle are employed in his plant in Tor's r.ove. I am not suggestinp:, ~!r.

Speaker, that - rnaybe the plant in Cape Eroyle will justify a licence, but "hat I am saying is that: before we go out and start issuin~ licences to everv person whn -wants to estahlish a fish plant now that things are looking good, ue ~ave to !Je ll.Wtully sure t~at by allo<-ring that plant to be est~blisherl t:hat it '"ill not jeopardize another plant in the i~~ediate area. A supolenentary, ·~r. Speaker • 'fT.? SP~_\KER: • \ supplementary . 'I'L f. ~'.0\-!E: Of course the !'cinister realizes, ~!r. Spea}:er, that this fish plant already exists; it is not a new fish plant that we are talking about.

A supplementary question, tfr. Speaker - 'vould the lf'inister indicate whether any new fish plants or extensions to any existing fish plants have been carried out in the Ferryland district or on the Southern Shore in recent months or years ~ · 289

'rape "'' :r. - 3 :m. F. ?.OWE: and if so,whethe r these same fish plants or ne.., fish plant'S '1avo! been issue:i processor's licences? :~. SPl:.l KER: The h?n. "inis cer of fisheries . 'r . Speaker, I ;Jm ~JOt a'"; arc of any neH ~lanes. T~e last ona :hat 1 can ~hink of at ~he Dooent is a srall feeder pla nt operation operat~e in Aquafo~e - There has heen nothin2 -lone i:t r~ 1:ryland.

T·!e have "ad requests fron :leoote in Ferryla:1ci for a li.:er:ce to o?erate a reeder olan t. ~le have reiecce<' tl:at aol)l.ication on t"le sa"'e oasis as rre are objectin~t to the Caoe Sr.oyle - .:~ . r. .~O!'!E : i>e·tcy Har bour . . . :1 ''C'I':. '!E'!3CP. : Petty HAr bour. In Petty "ar:-our - ves, a St:'.cll reeder pt&nt was established t~ere a yea ~ ~c a ~al f a~o wier. no - ~'R . F . ROI-"T:: ;\n extensio n to Tor's Cove? :.:!'&. 1$. CARTER: ~o. a~ ~o r's Cove there are ne~ place fre E.?.ers b ein ~ installed . additional equipm ent 1 but no e:~ension on the . 290

March 9, 1978, Tape 99, Page 1 -- apb MR. F.B.ROWE: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. MR. SPEAI<ER: A supplementary. MR. F.B.ROWE: Is the minister really saying that the reason that the gentleman in question in I Cape Broyle has not received a fish processing licence is because of overcapacity in the district at the present time, in that fishing area? MR. SPZAKER: The hon. Mi~ister of Fisheries. MR. W. CARTER: There is certainly at certain times of the year. In most times of the yea~ there is an overcapacity of plants on the Southern Shore.

But again, at a certain period, during the glut period,two or three or four weeks of the year, there is probably more fish than these pl3.nts can handle, a:;.-t;hough I am told that in the case of Cape Broyle - in fact, I have letters to that effect- that the Tor's cove Fisheries were able to purchase all of the landings that were brought in there last year and in past years, and in Cape Broyle. But certainly we do not think it is too wise to allow plants to establ .ish just to accommodate fish that is landed during a glut period because in Newfoundland today our plants are still operating much below capacity.

In fact, I think the average operating capacity is about 35 per cent, and to allow other plants to just spring up all over the place without regard for the size of the resource and the landings I think would only be compounding what is now a very serious problem. MR. F.B.ROWE: A further supplementary. ~u<. SPEAKER: A final supplementary. MR. F.B.ROWE: Mr. Speaker - oh,final! That cha.ages things a little. Mr. Speaker, I do not know which supplementary to ask now, but does the minister realize that the gentleman in question who intends to purchase this plant had been assured by the Salt Fish 291.

March 9, 1978, Tape 99, Page 2 -- apb MR. F.B.ROWE: Corporation, and it is a salt fish plant, had been assured by ~~e Salt Fish Corporation that there is a ready market for their fish? And could the minister also, while he is answering that particular 'a' part of the question rationalize why he would allow additions to existing fish plants and a new fish plant to be built at a time when there is supposedly an overcapacity and he is refusing to issue a licenca to an existing salt fish plant? MR. SPF~KER: The hon. Minister of Fisheries. MR. W. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, it is not a question of markets.

I have no doubt that there is a substantial market but that is not the problem; the problem is the matter of raw material. There is no point in having markets if you cannot get the raw material to put tnrough. The second part of the question dealing with the issuance of other licences: The plant in Petty Harbour is justified as far as we are concerned. Last year it was working close to full capacity. The licence to operate was issued before I became Minister but I would still have issued the licence had I been in the department at that time, and that is the only addition. And the hon. member, Mr.

Speaker, might recall two years ago when the ~ermeuse plant, the Bonavista Cold Storage plant in Fermeuse served notice on its workers, 150 of them,that the plant would be closing within thirty days 1 the reason being that there was insufficient raw material. We had to move in and make certain guarantees to the company to assist them with respect to their catching capability. We did, in fact, provide them with two ships to land fish in that plant. It was touch and go there for a number of months whether in fact that large plant,put there, I might say, at considerable public and private expense,would survive.

But it has survived by means of a lot o£ 292

March 9, 1978, Tape 99, Page 3 -- apb MR. W. CARTER: co-operation and hard work on the part of all concerned. But certainly the Cape Broyle operation is under consideration and once the guidelines have been established, and if the amount of raw material is there, then we will certainly give mo~e thought to issuing a licence to them. MR. F.B.ROWE: Mr. Speaker, I am dissatisfied with the answer and under Standing Order 3S(

g) I give notice that I intend to raise this questi0n on the adjournment of the House. MR. SPEAKER: I have indicated that I would recognize the hon. member for Baie Verte - White Bay to be followed by the hon. membersfor Lewisporte, Conception Bay South and Stephenville. MR.RIDEOUT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is for the Minister of Labour and Manpower. As the minister is no doubt aware, and members of the House, the strike that has been ongoing in Baie Verte between the steel- workers and Advocate Mines Limited is now in its fourth week.

I wonder if the minister could tell the House what efforts he has made, or other officials of his department may have made after that period of time, which is certainly a lengthy ti~e,to get both sides to sit down and resume negotiat.ions? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Labour and Manpower. 293

iiarch 9, 1978 Tape ~o. 100 HR. ROUSSEAU: :-!r. Speaker, when the request came in for conciliation services we appointed a conciliation officer, as is nor~~l procedure, and within the fifteen day time period, on the advice of the officials in the department 1 we did not appoint a conciliation board. As I understand i.t, most items if not all outside of the questions of occu?ational and health anu safety have been settled. I say most if not all. TI1e question is one of occupatiQnal health anJ safr:ty.

The original conciliation officer, Jack Stanley froi:l our Grand Falls office~ is prepared at any time to neet ~lith either or botil parties should they request or require a meeting. Also of cours·~ if in his opinion there would be som~ usefulness to having b<.lth sides sit dow-n, he cet"tainly would so so. I :1ave talked to the company about a week and a half or two ago.

Contt"ary to reports in t;hich I talked to one nec!ia in the Province which was CI:C t"adi·) in which I made an announcement, I spent the "eekend in Cot"ner B-:ooi: in which CFCB Has announcing there was a meeting and which the Daily News a.:1nounced there was a meeting and none of which I had talked to. There was never a meeting planned between me and the uniOLl.

As I say the only media I did talk to was the CBC and I indicated I would,because of gove~~eut's concern for the question of occupational health and safety and on,the question of occupational health and safety if the union or company wanted to tal~ to me personally on these items, because of the importance of the~, I would certainly ~o so, not n~gotiate the contract because I have competent officials in the department who are prepared to do that. l<e have been in contact with the union and as a matter of fact yesterday...Qr this morning,I believe it <Vas, yesterday and this morning, a:1d we are ?repared at any time both sides want to go back to the table to convene a meeting.

Like I say again, it is a difficult situation anu situations of a similar nature in the mining industry are going to find themselves more an~ more involved in the question of occupational - 294

:larch 9, 1978 A,.--, :ION. l:.!lillBER: !!R. ROUSSEAU: !\.'I HmT. !IE. illER: llR.. ROUSSE.,\.U: Tape No. 100 Inaudible. You are not interested in the answer? Not interested in that at all. NH- 2 - with t::e question of occupational :1eal th and safety <•hich I think is a big Ol!e. It surfaced first now at 3aie Verte but I.po not think it is something that we will not see in other si:llilar agreements across the mining inC.ustry in ti1is Province this year. So we are pre"[lared again if either or bot~ sides wish to sit down and convene a meeting and try and bring an end to this strike. :~P.. RIDEOUT: :!R.

SPEA..'<ER: :!R. RIDEOUT: :!r. Speaker, A supplementary. ~-lr.

Speaker, in •rie1<r of 1 the issues in this strike which the minister already to·.tched on- .:m.d they are not mo:::.etary issues, they are issues of occupational health and safety- .i: wonder has the minister :;:.v<.n any consideration, or would he, to sitting down himself, publicly calling a meeting on some neutral ground, it does not h.::.ve to be in llaie Verte, some,.,here - Deer Lake, or some other place- and sitting dowu himself and attempting to mediate ii possible, at lease try it, some sort of solution because,as I say. it is not a monetary situation, it is a situation where people lives are involved.

The minister is concerned about it. We have had doz~ns of conversations on it. I think maybe some ministerial guidance,as it were, could bring tbose parties together, because it ~s ray contention they are not that far apart. I <~onder if the ;ninister would give any consi(;e;;ation to ti1at ar,d would he be prepared to possibly o.o it? lrrt. SPEfu~ER: l!R. O.OUSSEAU: The hen. Hinister of Hanpower and Industrial Relations . On the request from a mosc reasonable man in this House of Assembly I certainly will give it very serious consideration . There are repercussions to a minister sitting down,as I am sure the 295

:iarc.'1 9, 1973 1-JR. ROUSSEAU: hon . member can ..:nderst<;nc .

In any strike situ.atio ~l the ministe r does nc.t ;:an t co get involveo but because of the r equest froo a ver y reasonabl e end hono::~rabl e :nan I certainly w;Ul give it co.nsideration ove r the veekend and l will give the !1on. mel!lber, either in private or ?Ubl!cJ,y, my re!>ly on tha first of the •.reek , tionday or Tuesday, but I Hil l giv e it serious consideration. 'De hon. memh~r for Le.:isporre . :a> .. viHIT2: tly ques ti<:Jn is fer t ile :·!:ini.s ter of Educa ~ion and it has to do witt1 the govern.-nen': 1 s p'J lic;,r ~·:!.!:!': respec;; to the ·>p2rations of sc!loo: '.Juses l n NewfounClan:l. 1: 'loul;;i lik~ for the l!linis ter to tell us '-'hether or not his dep artment is prese1<tly encouragin~ the pi:~se out of all ?rivate ilus operations in t:1e ;?ovtnce ana hc.vin& them taken over ·,y t.:1e sc!lool boar~~ The hon . :·!ioist e r of Education . ~ire ::ous3: ~x .

Spe3ke r , we are not nece s sarily encourazing :i1e takeove1· .,f s c!1ool bus operations by the boa r ds . But we had to bring a \lou t a regulation l ast year t hat 1,1e would no t necessarily have to acce?t exorbitant tend er s. -~d we have s ome exp er tise in the deQar-::ment and t;hen 1.1e >.ay tha t a t.ander is unr,2sonable we su;;ges t to the. s cliool ;,oa:.: - •.·e ;laVe the c echaniSlll to go to :he school board and encourage them to purc:1a;; e buses and .we will give tho!!!' ~he asc.istance to clo it. HR. 'o/HI'!'E: A supplementary , Hr. Speaker . HR. SPEAKER: A suppleme n .:a1:y. 296

llarch 9, 1978 TaiJe do. 101 :n-r - 1 :-lr. Speal~er, I fully realize that the boards, according to regula.tions, are permitted to take over busing in the Province, but could the minister tell us that - I have had some correspondence from various boards ~d it has been indicated to me this j,s beco1:1ing •·lidesprcad, the thought o_f takin!l over school buses, not only where there are exorbitant tenders but in places generally throughout the Province, not only where one guy co~es in to get all the buses, but in other places as well. !iR. SFEAKER; The hen.

Hinis:ter of Education. ------ Y11.. 3:0USE: ~o, that is not the intent. I do not know if that is happening. The cases that I knoW' have :,een just the case that we have called tenders and the pt:ices 1•Tere,,•e consi~er~unreasonable and t:1e boards have been encoura;J;ed for that point. I do not think '"e ·,-ant, I do not t!J..ink He can try to eliminate the private sector there. Hit. RIDEOUT: A supplement3ry. ~!R. SPEAKER: A final supplementary, then the han. member. :IR..

RIDEOUT: I wonder if the minister could tell the House whether or not his department have set up a mechanism to do some sort of cost analysis on school bus runs that they have presently allmved boards to do on their own. I am thinking,for exa'Uple,of the Green 3ay Integrated School Board, in comparison to wilat it Hould cost ~lis Jepart!ilent to financ..:: ~rivate operators to J.o those in pe.s t ye.ars. :m... SPS.:\KER; The bon.. Hinister of Education. governi.ne this, it ;;as adm.inisterF.d by the department,that particular regulation.

And when we suggest, or when a board "ants to go and do their own busing, we look at the cost benefit to the board in all cases. i!R. RIDEOUT: You are lookin::; at it r.m; thut it is in place. (Inaudible) to loo1~ ut it 0:.1 paper before yo;, .start. 297 L.

' !;1rci1 9, 1978 Tape :1o. 101 :iR. :mus;:: .lell,it is ve-::y difficult to look at it Lm~il afeer the e:ad of the year, after the first year it is in operation. We looked at one case last year where ti1ere was a very su~stantial saving, ' quite substantial. liR. SPEA...l{ER: The han. meml:er for Conception 3ay South, followed by the !ton. r.Jembers for Fogo and Stephenville. :-m.. :~OLM~ : : lr.

Speaker, I was trying to cmm~unicate <md ask a question since the ~iouse has only been opened t1ro days with t:1.e :rinister of Tourism,who has now Yanish~d. ;./e >·?ere going to ask a question of the Prer.~ier, he has vanished. Ali :iON. 1·lElBER: There he is. The question is very simple and I tave indicated r·rivately to the member whac H might be involved in, : .nd that is I ~~ wonderin~ if he is in a position to give us a~y new info~1 ~tion en what his department is currently doing on tlte c:·lUrd. by tite .::ide of the Road in Topsail ••hich a committee, as I am sure he knows, are try::.t:g to preserve.

The former miuister,I might say, was very co-operative in this manner and had his officials involved in it for some time and did a splendid job. Hhat we would like to know now is 1faere it is now that it is in new ltands and whether we can expect the same consideration and help and assistance from the current minister as we have from the former minister? :!R. SPEA:C;:R: The han. 1-iinister vf Touris!:l. Hr. Speaker, in reply to l!,at questi ::m I can honestly say Chat the han. gentleman can be assured of the sarr.e kind of co-o,: ·eration as my predecessor gave him.

But :!.n respect to these kin e of historic sites around the Province, as t h e hen. gentle=n now is aware that the recent agreement signed, which ~,;e are very appreciate of, between this Province and Ottawa, that these kind of historic sites can be now developed and restored as tourist at~%act:!.ons and I am sure that the building mentioned, the old church, w:!.ll be one of the sites 1ve will be looking at in the future. 298

!larch 9, 19 78 Tope }\a. 101 :m- 3 :rn.. SPEAKE.J.l.: A supplementary. 1-JR. NOL&": A supplelllEntary,if I may. lfuat I am attempting to endeavour is has the minister or his o~ficials had any meetings ret:ently which ''ould indicate, one, that the church will not be torn down. Because from the cor~ittee that has already been set up it was intended, as I underst~nd it, to pass the churct1 over from the church zroup themselves to the committee. It 1vould be a historic site because it is over :.30 years old ar!d it may be a museum or somet:hing of this nature. It ••auld not merely be a building lying there dormant.

Anti I might say again that t!1e staff, your staff previously, or the former !!linister' s staff, did a tremendous job in digging icto this and doing a tremendous amount of work. A great deal of credit i& QUe to them. So "'here is it right now? :!F.. SP F_\KEB.: The han. Hinister cf Tourisn. Well, :tr. Speal~er, I \vill endeavour to get the infor=tion for the han. gentleman. In the meantime, I ~;ould like to indicate I would be pleased to meet with that· committee he refers to from the area in the very near future so that 1ve can take up \Vhere my predecessor left off. XR.

S:>EAKER: The han. member for Stephenville. MR. J.!Cl~EIL: ----- -- Hr. Speaker, a question for the Minister of J'inan ·.!e. Ho\V long has the consulting firw. of Hoods Gordon been ~mployed by the govarnnent as selling agents for Labrador Linerboarcl? Pu.1d. the secor..d part of my question i.s, ,.1,ao: are the daily fees of th:f.s comp;;.ny being charged to the government? :m. HIC:Oi:.\N: ~lr.

Speaker, I will have to take notice of that question. ,'.nd for t!1e information of hen. gentlemen pre,;ent, the Labrador Linerboard mill operation, or the President :>f the Doard is still my colleague and the han. the ;rinister of l!ltergovernmental Affairs and it ~1 ould be more appropriate if that question \>as addressed to :1i::n tomorrow. ~ut in the meantime I shall alert him of your interest 299

::.:trc~1 9, 1978 T3pC ::o. 1:>1 .::! - 4 ~~ ~-ill he ~e it ere tomorrot:? :·lR. .I!Cl'..:WI: Ti:lat depends , :·tr . 3penker . :m. NOLAN: ".<ill the Fre:n:!.er be :1er e tomorror.;? :-!R. ?..I:JEOUT: 1'he :!inistcr of !C.n~s 3nd E::e:q;r • ::R. • :OL,~I : !roo can ve count on asking tomrrow? !I ill the "linist:er of ~ural Jevelop!:len:: oe :1cre tooorrow? :w.. !IC.:~lh:~: ~&!..!.. :·~ . .:rct~ul.:l : The iton. ::unisror i1cs :10t fi:-.isne<l :tis I :1ave :tot finished. I itavc :10 t fi:tishec. You are finished .

I ~ant to set the w.i:1ds of bon . ::;entle~en ;>::-esent at ease. rne :ton. the Prcn.icr, the uon . the :.in,;.stc.r of bcerJovernmencal Affairs, an~ the hon . c:~e :!inister o: . .incs a::~c! t:ner:;y are today <Torl:ing very ass i duously in th':! best interes t oi ~:e~1fo und!aod to oe r eady for tomorrow 1 s meet in;; •..:ith t he Priae :~nis t cr of Que~ec . 300 ~· I

March 9, 1978 Tape 102 IB-1 ORDERS OF THE DAY: MR. HICKMAN: Motion 1 Motion, the hon. the Minister of Industrial Development to introduce a bill, "An Act Tc Repeal The Government-Pyramid Mobile Homes

(1959) Limited (Confirmation Of Agreement) Act," (No. 12), carried. On motion, Bill No~ 12 read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. MR. HICKMAN: Motion 2. Motion, the hon. the Minister of Social Services to introduce a bill, "An Act To Amend The Adoption Of Children Act, 1972, 11 (No. 9), carried. On motion, Bill No. 9 read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. MR. RICKMAN: Order 1. MR. S?EAKER: Order 1, the adjourned debate on the Address in Reply. The hon. member for LaPoile. MR. ~EARY: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to move that all the words after that be deleted and replaced with the following, "This House deplores the failure of the government to prepare and to present to the House measures adequate to deal with the problems confronting Newfoundland and Labrador today and demands that the government forthwith take all measures possible within their constitutional a•.1thority to alleviate these problems." That motion is seconded by my han. colleague, the member for Conception Bay South (Mr. Nolan) who is sitting in the House. I have a copy for Mr. Speaker. }!R. MURPHY: (Inaudible) MR.

NEARY: I beg your pardon? The member for Conception Bay South (Mr. Nolan) seconded it. MR. SPEAXFR: It has been moved by the hon. member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) and seconded by the bon. member for Conception Bay South (Mr. Nolan) that all the words after 'that' be deleted and replaced ' . with the following, "This House deplores the failure of the government to prepare and to present to the House measures adequate to deal with the problems confronting Newfoundland and Labrador today and demands 301

March 9, 1978 Tape 102 MR . SPEAKER: that the government forthwith take all measures possible within their constitutional authority to allevi~te these problems." The han. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I would assume that Your Honour giving me the nod in the affirmative that the vote of no~-confidence that I just put in the government is in order. Now, Mr. Speaker, the first matter I want to deal with is a matter thac came up really this morning.

I had gotten all my notes in order but somehow or other trying to get my speech on the Address in Reply going,to get in top gear, get in high gear, that other matters keep popping up. It may take me a little while, Mr. Speaker, to get back to the items that were mentioned in the Throne Speech that was delivered in this han.

House on Monday, but I think I can say this straightaway, Sir, that I feel that the han. the Premier and the government of this Province should write Her Majesty, the Queen, send her a deep and humble apology for forcing her representative in Newfoundland, Sir, to utter such a weak, tired, sterile recital of tried old promises. Mr. Speaker, today more than ever before in the history of this Province the people are looking to their government for action, for leadership, for some indication that the government cares about the people, that the government cares about those who have elected them. Mr.

Speaker, en Monday in the Throne Speech - and I think my colleague, the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. W. Rowe) has already indicated this to the people of the Province - that all we saw, Sir, was recycled, tired old promises. The people of this Province, Sir, are asking for bread and on Monday they received nothing but stone. Mr. Speaker, since the House last sat there has been no planning by the government, there was no action. There was quite a bit of hunting and fishing done during the Summer vacation. Then all of the sudden in November a little bit of activity started.

The governmenttrealizing the desperate condition of their image, the desperate way that ·. 302 IB-2

Tape I;o. 103 tl1e people of t.lis province felt aoout tile Prt::lllier a::.d t:te aillisters that they J;,cided that t~•ey naci to take tna!lselves i:: h"--ld and do something about beefing up ti1eir :bage. A ... -:d ti1e pressure \>Tas comiu8; also, ,[r. Speaker, I might say, the ]?res sure 'las coming from Hiti1in tne caucus, <Jitnin ti:e PC caucus. :ir. Speaker, can I :lB.v€: quiet I can hardly hear ~yself witt; ti.e [lOise that is goiz~g on outside the Eouse, Sir. Orde!" please!

T:1e corridors outside the Chamber .J.re also \-lithin tile author~ty of the Eouse and I would ask t•te attencients to ma;ce sure that silence is kept ti1ere,please. Tl1e hon. 1u~ber for La.Poile. :IR. :TEARY: :rr. Si,)eaker a,-,J now I do not know where I left off UB2.in.

Cut, Sir, ~·le sa'i:l a littl~ Uit of accivi~::y started up ht ~;ov:..::nDer ani brougi1t on Oy some of t~1.e b.J.c!~be.achers on the zover::l!::.ent side w~1o .:1re L""'l daily contact Hith !:heir constituents an2 wit:1 the j)eople of this province, who realized tnat the government was in serious, ser~ous difficulty and that their image was at an all-ti~e low in this J?rovince.

And so the head of the administration felt that they had to do souetl1in:; to beef up ti1eir image and so that is when the activity starteJ. tit.J.t is \<hen we saw the Actien GrouF elllerge Hi1en tney hired a s-ports broadcaster for about $45, JOO or $..JO, 000 a year plus expenses, I ,.10ulc.i. •• ssume, to head up the most expensive closed-circuit telephone open line. prograrame in the history of mankind. And I will ueal witi1 that .c'.c=ior. Group a little later on.

I want to come back to a matter tl.1a..t was ".:lrougllt to my attention this morning that concerns tile ilinister of Fisheries who ,I understand, i·lr. Speaker, \vill be following ;~e ia the Address in Reply. Then, Sir, ~ve saw the pro seal caupaign wi.1ere literally huntlrecis of thousands of taxpaye'l:s dollars \·rere used oy t:1e Preruier of this Province, not to buy eyeglasses for needy children, not ::o provide dentures for needy people in t;1is Province, not to provide. "'1ael chairs for little crippled children - no! - to send tile Premier 303

l>furch 9, 197 S Tape i\o • .iOJ J:1 - 2 iJR. NEA;.{Y: and his ministers off on a safari around ti1e world. To provic1e, i·ir. Speaker, as I said '"'hen I began my speecn, to provide a forum, to provide a platform for Brian Davies and Gret:npeace so that ehey could get .:heir message across because that is all it did, ar. Speaker. It ,;as a gross error in judt;ement.

I realize t!1e Premi~r 's :1eart anc.l the :unister :Jf Fisi1eries' l1eart anc.l the ::irrister of Rural Developruent's hearts were in the right pla~e but it was a ~ross error i11 judgement on their part. -~Ld all tl!o:y ciiU ~·as lasi1 t;1eir :aouey out to P:t fir!'ls around the world to try to i1elp t:1em beef up their image. Then the :-1ordsee proposal calile on che carpet and tiHt one backfired. Tne ad!ilinistration, the Premier of this Province, the acilllinistration are on public recoru as saying that t;1ey agree ·,.;ith fcrei.:;n takeover of our resources, of industry in this province.

Tl1e administration is on record, ti1e Premier of t;1is province has stated publicly tllat th<'y agree with foreign takeover and I will deal with that matter c. little later on too. And then came the great Ca~inet reshuffle that was supposed to solve all tl1e problems. Now 1vhat brou~i1t that on, Nr. Speaker? Hell, I will t.;.~ll the house what brought it on, I will tell the iiouse ~vhat r;ct tl1f= Prell!ier off the golf course and off the barrens for a few days to reshuffle his Cabinet. It vras the fact, }!r.

Sreaker, that relations between this Province and the Goverr.ment of Canada and Ottawa had cletoriated so badly that the han. the Premier :1ad to :;o up several tiJ .1cs last year to try to mend the ferrces, tc try .:8 patc:1 LlP tne <lifferences between several ministers in this province, 'ibo were vocal on Feu;;ral pro3ranmes,anci relationship betwtoen t.le Provincial Governmec-.t, iJetwee.l tneir own <lc.;•a·rt;nents anu their counter;>arts in Ottawa.

T:1e Pre1nier l1ad to :;;o up and try to straigi1ten out the bad !;loot!, ti1e had r-,lations that were brought about by the irrespoilsible stateraents of minister in tais province. And the 1-finister of Fisheries, the hon. ~entleman who is goin::; to follow me in this Throne Speecl1,v.·as one of L1e big cult-rits and we hear n.c01ours, Sir, we hear t.::!lk outside of tllis i1on. !Oo:.!se that 304

March 9, 1978, Tape 104, Page 1 -- apb MR. NEARY: the relationship between the Premier and the Minister of Fisheries is severely strained at the moment, that there was a period last year when they were not even speaking to one another, they were writing notes, sending letters,. memos back and forth. What a way for an administration to try to govern this Province, Sir, when the morale of the Cabinet is so bad and so low and, Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Fisheries was one of the big culprits.

The Minister of Transportation and Communications who now got the flick, the reject who has now been put over in ~ourism, an insignificant portfolio, a department that should be abolished altogether, that minister was another one that had caused drastic deterioration in the relation­ ship between this government, between the Province of Newfoundland and the Government of Canada through his irresponsible outbursts. And the hon. Premier had to go up and talk to Mr. Lang and try to open up the door and apologize for the minister, to try to open up the door again, becaue Mr. Lang and Mr.

LeBlanc and several other ministers up in Ottawa said they would absolutely refuse to deal with these ministers, they were not honourable men, they had to negotiate through ~he newspap~rs. Mr. Speaker, to give you an example, we kept askL:~g questi ,ons in this hon. House last year about the Trans-Canada Highway, about the fifty/fifty deal that Ottawa had offered the Province on the Trans-Canada Highway and the minister at that time, who has now been deposed, kept giving us information that was quoted in The Evening Telegram and The Daily News and that was the first indication that Mr.

Lang had of this information, when he was sent the newspaper from this Province. Is that the way, Sir,to carry 305

~~rch 9, 1978, Tape 104, Page 2 -- apb MR. NEARY: on relations, relations with the Gover~~ent of Canada? MR. MURPHY: Is that a fact? MR. N!'.:ARY: ~hat is a fact. Mr. Speaker, the bad blood, the bad relations between the provincial government and the Government of Canada has literally cost this Province millions, and millions, and millions of dollars. We have agreements that are not yet even signed as a result of the incompetence and the negligence of this administration. And my hon. friend, my hon. deposed - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR.

NEARY: I do not think the hon. ------ gentleman is going to be included in this particular group but I will be coming to the hon. gentleman a little later on. MR. MORGAN: You will not fight Ottawa. You will not fight Ottawa, no! MR. NEARY: So what do we have, Mr. Speaker? MR. MORGAN: You will let them tramp all over us down here. MR. NEARY: Let me see what other ministers were troublemakers, troublemakers that had tc be transferred, that had to be moved out of their departments, deposed, rejected, cast aside. Oh, the Minis~er of Finance got the flick. Mr. Speaker, why did the Minister of Finance get the flick?

Why? Well, I will tell the House why I think the Minister of Finance got the flick. The Minister of Finance, Sir, had become one of the more cantankerous ministers and a thorn in the side of the hon. the Premier. A thorn in the side of the hon. the Premier and had been doing things behind the Premier's back, and the hon. the Premier was not going to put up with that so he gave the hon. the Minister of Finance the flick 306 . l . b I

March 9, 1978, Tape 104, Page 3 -- apb MR. NEARY: and put him over in Transportation to try to reestablish diplomatic relations with Mr. Lang and the Government of Canada, relations that had been broken down so badly by the former Minister of Transportation and communications, the reject from - MR. MORGAN: them walk over us down here. MR. NEARY: (Inaudible) we will let Mr. Speaker, now we are get~ing an example, Sir, we can hear it now, we are getting an example now of the arrogance and the contempt of teat hon. gentleman for his counterpart in the Government of Canada. The hatred was savage, Sir, savage.

And the blood was almost as bad between the Minister of Fisheries and the hon. Mr. Romeo LeBlanc who is the saviour, the man we have to look to to save the fishery of this Province. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, relations became so bad, as I said, Sir, between three or four ministers who were doing all the damage - there are ministers,Mr.

Speaker, who did not contribute to this at all, there are ministers who realized the implications and the consequences of this and I would say they must be saints up in Ottawa to put up with the abuse and the insults that were hurled both inside and outside of this hon. House by three or four ministers including the former Minister of Transportation and Communications and the Minister of Fisheries and one or two other ministers. 307

March 9, 1978 SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. NEARY: SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. SPEAKER: Tape No. 105 Oh, oh: It is terrible, Sir, terrible. Oh, oh! RT-1 Order, please. The interjections, of course, are not foreign to the House but hon. members do'not wish to engage in them to the extent that they do destruct debate,! am sure. Hon. ~fember for LaPoile. MR.

NEARY: The hon. the Premier had to come off the goJ.f course, the han. the Premier had to leave his hunting trips, he had to leave the barrens and go up to Ottawa several times last year to try to straig~ten out the situation, to try to straighten out the relationship be~wcen the Province and the Government of Canada.

As a result of that I will shortly in my few remarks, if I can finish this afternoon I will, if not I will have to carry on tcmorrow morning, but Sir, I will prove that the incompetence and the arrogance and the result of the insults that were flung out both inside and outside of this House by hon. gentlemen cost this Province millions and millions of dollars in programs that should have been negotiated and contracts signed last year that are still outstanding. Mr. Speaker, what about the mineral exploration ?rogram? Is that a 50/50 deal? That is not yet signed, Sir.

There are millions of dollars laying in Ottawa, millions of dollars in Ottawa in programs where contracts should be signed, should have been signed six months and a year ago, and they have not even started negotiations yet. I will mention a few of them shortly, Mr. Speaker, but I want to come back, Sir, to a matter that was brought to my attention,as I said,this morning. First of all,let me get off the re-shuffle. That was the reason behi nd the re-shuffle, Sir. The former Minister of Finance asked to be relieved of his portfolio a year ago.

The hon. the Premier could not root the Minister of Justice out of his Department. The Premier realizes that he is rather thin in manpower and he could not blast the Minister of Justice out of his portfolio; he wanted to make him ~linister of Finance, but the Minister of Justice knows full well that whatever chance that he has 308

March 9, 1978 Tape No, lOS RT-2 MR. NEARY: of getting an appointment to the Bench, of creeping and crawling and getting an appointment to the Bench, whatever chance he has is as Minister of Justice, not as Minister of Finance. So the Minister of Justice would not give up, That is why we see him today with two portfolios, the first time I suppose in the history of our British parliamentary system that we had one' man holding down Justice and Finance. It never happened before.- And also House Leader. It never happened before ~m.der the British parliamentar"j system.

The hon. gentleman is too lazy to look after one department. Why, the hon. gentleman is as lazy as a yellow, mangy dog in a corner, and the hon. the Premier does not give him one portfolio, Sir- SOME IIO~. MEMBE.RS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, plezsel MR. NEARY: -the hon, gentleman gives him two. SOME HON. MEMBE.RS : Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. MURP!!Y: Point of order, Mr. Speaker. In the absence of the h~n. minister I do not think we have to put up with language like that, Sir, quite frankly. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please.

There are certain words which are unparliamentary and I think that the words that were used by the hon. member for LaPoile clearly do fall into that category. In the heat of debate this is perhaps understandable but, nevertheless, I think the hon. member should retract those particular words, MR. NEARY': I retract, Sir. The hon. gentleman is not as lazy as a yello1v, mangy dqg in a corner, but the hen, gentleman, Sir, is incapable of making decisions,without giving away any Cabinet secrets.

When I sat in the Cabinet for three and one half years, when the hon. gentleman was a Liberal sitting to my immediate left in the Cabinet, the hon. gentleman was incapable of making a decision. And that is the hon. gentleman now that the Premier gives the two most important portfolios in the Province to, 309 ~.

lla.:ch 9, 1978 Tape ~-o. 106 i·!R. NEA1.1.Y: And, Nr. Spoakar, 1;-\len I 0et in high gear en the administration of justice in this Province later on in my fe>T remarlo::s, probably not this afternoon, I hope that I can open :1p a few eyes, Hr. Speaker.

But because the han. gentle1nan would not le~ go, the hon. ger..tlet:J.a.n wanted to hang on, v.-anted to hang on to Justice because he realizes t:.at is t:1e best chance :~e has of wormil.C.:l; his t'lay to the bench 1 t':!at is the "c>est chance he has so he is going to stay there and tl1e hon. the Premier being stuck, the -relations· betr,Jeen ~ir.1. aml the former :1inister of Finance had brol~en down so badly that they t·rere not speaking to one ;mot::er, t~<e former N:·l - 1 t!inister of Finance,an obstruction in the way of negotiations on t 11e cil H:finery and on several other important negotiations that .,,ere going on in the Province.

Order, ,lease: I have to iu.terrupt tr1e han. :;;entlema'l to report the three matters which t'lill be debated at five-thirty this evening and ti·,ey are in the order in which I received them. The first notice,the hon. member for St. George's (:Irs. :·ccisaac) arising from a question asked the han. l!!inister of Justice; the subject natter? the proposecl change in the matri~onial property law. The secon~ matter, notice given by the ~1on. member for LaPoile (Hr. Neary) arising irom a question asked the han.

Hinister of Health; the subject matter,the fee for service, or deterrent fees under :-rcr,whether they are proposed or not. The third matter, notice given by the hon. ~ember for Trinity - Bay de Verde (lfr. F. Ro•,re) arising fro!:! a question asked tlle l1on. Hinister of Fisheries; the subject m.atterJthe ;:;ossibi!ity of a processing licence to the fish plant in Cape Broyle. The hon. meiUber for LaPoiJ.e. ~!r. Speaker, the other hon. gentle1!1an ~1ho is not in his seat today that I have to mention that was one of the big culprits in the breakdov.~ of negotiations of relations between -_· 310

~larch 9, 1978 Tape No. 106 NH - 2 :lR. NEARY: the Province and the Government of Canada is the :•!inister of Rural Development, who I saw down on the waterfront the other day with hia knapsack on his back, gone off to the seal fisher;. And if the stories that ar~ reaching our ears are correct I do not blame the hen. gentlema~ for going to the seal fishery. The hon. :>:entler.um if· he •,rent to China it would not be =ar enou~h. The hon. Premier and the hon. minister, who will be brought back in pretty soon by Sealand C.elicopters, t!1e h:')n. ;;ent~eman and the.

Prei!.i2r are not on speaking terws, so we are told. ':hey ;,ave had a vic:;.ous rm7. They have done everytl,.Cng but ~et involved in cist~cuns over the extension to the Grand Falls Hospital. The goverr..IJ.tont ha•:e refused to keep their pror.ti.se, fulfill .:he!r cc=itment, put the extensio•~ Lhis year on tl1e Grand Falls Hospital, as tile Prem.;_er promised in Grand Falls to the committee late last Spring. And 'lOW they arc renaging, they are renaging on tl1eir promise, and the :•linister of Rural Development, who is the member for Grand Falls (~lr.

Lundri~a.."'l), is not going to take any of that guff o£f his boss, the hon. the Premier. And so they have i:J.ad a vicious row. And the ltinister of Rural Develop:u.ent started to pout ancl sulk and decided instead of aitting in th.:o Cabinet, instead of sitting in this iiouse, in the heat of battle and trying to solve the un~~ployment problems, and giving us a list of all the political patronages involved in the :~ural Developr.lenc loans, he is goir,;; ::o sulk, pout and :;o to the s.cal fb!:lery and ;:;et riJ of it all. Get clear of us all, especially ~llco Premier.

At the monent they can'lot stand one another. I clo not know if he will cool off his heels out to t;1e seal fishery and come back and rejoin the Cabinet, or if the i1on. gentlel:l.an -will co!:le back and sit where I was down to my right there for a coupl~ of years as an independent. But I do not blame the han. gentleman, Sir, because t:1er;o, is a solemn prot:lise to the people in tlu: district of Grand Falls t~at the extension to their hospital would be started this year, as well 311. ,. i. ~i

::arch 9, 1978 T~pe ;io . 106 :::1 - 3 :a. ~.u~Y: as a hospital in Channel - Por: aux 3asqces, as wc.ll as a 'hospital on t:l e Burin Peninsula, as well as a hospital in Clarenville. And f=om the answer I ~o t to my question to t1le :tiniste r of :!eal.::h :·esterday, no::~e of c:.ese projec t s 11ill sc:art this year. ar.d where is the great moralist in this Province, · the hon . me:Wer for St .

Jo!m's i::ast (;lr . ~larshall), who always go t a halo over his head, •1i1o re.;izned trom the Cabinet be.cause a certain gentlenan in this ~roviuce ~as ~oing co be give n a contr act to build ·1n office bui lding over here at lledge\~ood Park and it was agains t the non . ~cntl eman Is r =inciple s tO stay in the Cabinet wi:Ule - · ~at contract was being Jiven out wit~out calling public tenciers! .oiCI:. we are told, :tr. S?ez:<ar, now we are told t!<at that c::>oe 'wn . ;::entle:nan 'Jho •,;ss :;o ing ::o '.>u:i.ld : i1e 312 i

March 9, 1978 Tape 107 MR. NEARY: office building for the government down at Wedgewood Park is now going around with an Order in Council in his pocket to put an extension on ConfP-deration Building. Now where is my hon. friend who resigned from the Cebinet, the great moralist, that great man of high moral principles when the wheeling and dealing is going on and a certain gentleman in this Province is going around with an order - and this gentleman can put the bulldozers out in front of this building tomorrow and no public tenders, no inviting of tenders. AN RON. MEMBER: That is not true. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, my hon. friend says that is not true. Let the Minister of Public Works (Mr. Lundrigan) answer it. Let the Premier answer it. ~_N HON. MEMBER: The minister is in Ottawa. MR. NEARY: tmybe the hon. gentleman was conveniently sent out of the Province when this wheeling and dealing went on. Tell us it is not true, that there are no negotiations going on to rent a substantial amount of office space downtown,and tell us that there is no animosity between the Premier and his great friend because of the wheeling and dealing that is going on in connection with this office space. Can the minister tell me?

Can the minister look me straight in the eye and tell me that there is no friction in th~ little clique, the little group, that are carryi~g on this wheeling and dealing? That also again, Mr. Speaker, the coffee talk is t~at relations between the hon. the Premier and his golfing buddy,who will go off to California together once in a while, that relations have been strained there for the last couple of weeks because if this government goes downtown and rents office space downtown that this gentleman will never again speak to the Premier of this Province. What a way to run an administration!

What a way to run a government! What about the Public Tendering Act? There is not a businessman, there is not a corporation or company in this Province that would not give their right arm to be able to get into that kind of a deal. Why not make it public and let them all have a crack at it? Maybe we would get a • 313 IB-1

March 9, 1978 Tape 107 MR. NEARY: better deal and maybe we would save the taxpayers of this Province millions of dollars. This is the kind of talk we hear, Sir. Is it any wonder, Mr. Speaker, that people are so disillusioned Pnd fed up and distrust their politicians so much, is it any wonder when they hear this kind of rumor and this kind of story? This is the sort of thing that is reaching our ears every day. I am certainly glad, Sir, to see my colleague, the member for Eagle River (Mr. Strachan) just arrive in the Speaker's gallery. He has been storm bound now I think for I believe it is ten days.

Is it ten days or longer? AN HON. MEMBER: Nine. MR. NEARY: Nine days in one of the worst storms they had on the coast and my hon. friend has just arrived and I think all members would like to welcome him back. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear,hear~ MR. NEARY: Well,Mr. Speaker, if we talk about these things, if we talk about the great deals, the wheeling and dealing that is made in the backrooms,that goes on in the posh hotels throughout the world and in th~ bistros and the finest restaurants in the world, if we talk about that we are getting personal. We are getting personal and we are not allowed.

We are being negative, Mr. Speaker, we are being negative when we talk about these things. When we talk about extravagance and waste and the government throwing away $50 million or $60 million cr $70 million or $100 million a year, we are being negative, Sir,and we are getting personal. How can you talk about the extension to Confederation Building without getting personal? How can you talk about the downtown office space if you do not get personal? I have not named a name here yet but I think everybody knows who I am talking about. How can you talk about the Scrivener scandal without getting personal?

And how can you talk about the fishery scandal without getting personal? 314 IB-2

March 9, 1978 Tape 107 MR. NEARY: ¥x. Speaker, I am one bon. member of this House, Sir, who has been the subject of ridicule and scorn and insults and innuendo for things that went on when I was Minister of Social Services and I 315 IB-3

J!·l - 1 :·LR. NEARY: accept the full responsibility for it, Sir. As a minister of the department I make no apologies to this hon. llouse. I accept tile full responsibility for doing my tluty and I could not ;lelp it, Sir, and I cannot itel!' it if there was incocnpetence in that depart~ent. That is not illY fault. Well it is ny fault. I am responsible for it. If \ve !u;.d incompetents there who could .1ot do their j ol..>, •>ho ''ere trying to save ~l1eir own scalp, firre,I take tne responsiJili~y for it. Tl1at is not ~v~1at the j uc:lge ~c..iU.. c'R. ~lEARY: That is wnat ~he juu::;e saitl.

The judge said the ruinis ter usec..i. his influence to sidetrack the employees. It is all written down. I do not want to get into th~ tninb - Th~ jc..i3e sairl, Sir, t:1at t~1e !ll~~nber ~1ad Jane his Juty to his constituents. Is ~he l.1on. gentleman saying there was sam..:.: wrongdoing on the l:linister's part? :1R. }[LJ.~.\PHY: Absolutely. ,!R. lffiARY: Stand up and say it. Arl.. ~:URPl!Y: For wi1at? :m. :-lEARY: s tan.:i ell' and make a ciuirge. UR. HURPtiY: I am after saying it fifty times. I will bring in t:1e report tomorrow and quote from it. l!R.

NEAE.Y: :!r. sr,eaker, I acc.s,.t the full responsibility for tl:e running of t::at department. Sure you Jid. And I t:link that the :tinister of Fisheries shoulcl accept tae full responsibility anJ the l·!inister of Health should accei' t the full responsibility. l!R. l{[JRPHY: Sure. Every minister snould. lfR. NEA.Ll.Y : I am not a minister. We have paid the price on this side for our errors and our mistakes and our policies and our platforms. We have paid the price. That hon. crowd are sitting over thera and tl1ey 316

:;arch 9, 1973 Tap~ :;o. lOJ J " ,., ... 1- .... HR. NEARY: are still braxening it out, Hr. Speaker, the greatest scanclals in the nistory of this province and they are riciing it out as if they could not care less. I will come back to that later on, Sir. I want to talk about how this ad~inistration, Sir, has taken away people's rignts 1 ;low t;1ey i1ave over tile last five or six years put the screHs on the people of this province 1 how ti1ey sre regimenting t:1e ~eople of this province, hou they are re:;ulating the lives of the people of ellis prm·ir,ce.

And an example of t:1nt, Sir, was last year wi:en t;\.:; people of this province were forced to get a permit to ?ick blueberrie-.3 anJ t:1ey liere told lest year, Sir, that the permit was free. But this year, :·tr. Speaicer, I would venture to bet that the permit 1.;ill cost a few Jollars. Ar.d my hon. friend, the Governroeu.t House Leader, the :·liu.ister of Jus~icc. ~ooks rat~er surprised and sD.ys oh, no, no, T./12 a-:e not ~oir .. ~ to do tnat. Hell, Sir, the fishermen - Hr.

Speaker, tl1e fishenilen of t.1is province, ti1e log3ers in this pr..;.vince, tl':e l..llllber in<iustry in t;1is province never t;1ought, Sir, in th•<ir wilJes t imrna:,;iilation t:1a t t:1ey "'ould have to pay for a pennit that they 30t every year free of charge since Confederation, that they would have to pay for a permit to get their gasoline tax e:.:emption. They never thougnt, Sir, just like 1:ll.e re~ple l'iilo picked tile blueberrio:s never tr1ou;;l1t they l·TOuld. ever illl.ve to get a permit to pick blueberries.

The fishermen, the loggers, the lunber.r.en, t:1e lumber iuJcstry never tiwu,;i1t that they '~auld have to pay for a perrJit, a licence, a per.nit to buy gasoline tax exempt ar:d O.o til-"Y• Sir? ~;e:.l just before lunch today a gent:em<.m arrivecl in my office ancl :;:et ..,.it:1 oyself and the member for St. Joim 1 s ;.;est and preset~tcc.i. me 'o~ith a clocUJI;.~nc. T~1e mir.~.is ters ::10\1 can loo:...: as surprised as t;1ey lil:e. Just listen to this, }ir. Speai~er. Listen to it. hOI{ caH mt:Omoers on tile other side of the House ::;o back arrd looi~ ti1~ fis.1ernen straight in t:~e eye after they hear this.

L:i.st;:,n - ir.:pc.rtnnt info-.:Tolut:i.cn bulletin - Gover=ent of :<ewfou:u.dland and Labrador. And the Hiniste= of Fisheries sitting down there and allowing tnis to ;;o c,,, To users of ta:< e;{ei!l?t gasoline .2nci tax exempt d.ies21 317

:larch 9, 1973 fuel froill thE: D.:partment of ~'i:1aa::e "- "'Y :wn. fri.enJ' s department~ tne ho:1. :;entleman who '.-loulc'. not let c;o Justice, straddlit~g between Justice and Finance, one foot on t~te bene;-, at~d one foot uown on ~Jail Strt!t!i: i..n :~e\oJ York dt.:.d a 1--·ick.et in tfle center. 11 Departtlent of Finance - effective ' 318 3

::arch 9, 197G Tape ;;o. 10~ J:[ - 1 ~m.. NEARY: 1st of April, 1978 your gasoline tax e:cempticn permit will have to be renewed. There will be a"- i'ir. Speaker, just listen to this. Now rem~ber these were free right from the tine of Confederation ri;ht up to the present t~e. These permits are only a ~atter of just sending in your application for renewal and having it send out in the mail free of charge. ~ow, Your Honour, do you t~tink they are going to charge $l.OO'for thes.; per.~its now? I Y~O\~ Your honour cannot ansuer me. If Your honour coulcl I am sure >ve lvould get an earful!.

"Effective the 1st of April, 1978"- Is it $5.00, :rr. Speaker? "There orill he a fee",ti1ey say i1ere -"TiH~re will be a''dash' a fee." :·;y hen. friend from iiUJ:Uber East, I do not kno1.; how many fishe:rrr::e1~ and lumbermen and loggers i1e has up there in his district, quite a few. Does my i1on. friend think that these 1:eople who used to get this little permit free are ncM .;oiq; co :1-J.Ve to pay $10,00? Does my hen. friend tilink that?

How much •.vould my hen. frieD.d guess that his constituents and the member for Deer Lake anu ti1e metrro·ar for Placentia and t;>e illeruber for Bona vista l-lorth anci the wember for Grand Bank and tc1e ~~ember for Exploits 1vho sits over there and never misses a word, hoH !l!uch, do tile. hen, gentleman know how much his constituents are going to have t.J ;;ay for t:1ese permits? Joes the hen. gentleman think $10.00 1.;ill be enough? i~ould $10.00 be enougi1? lie do not know.

Does the hen, gentleman from Placentia think that $15.00 "ill be enough? :·m, PATTERSON: $20.00,that is what you have in rr.ind, ;-IR. c:EARY: $20.00, Now how can the hen. cientleman go back and face ilis constitentsZ IE. PATTERSON: rtow do you know I am goL1..; bac:~'l Is the ~on. gentleman resignin~ v= ~oming across tne I do not have any notion at all. i1R. ::U:ARY: :·ir. Speaker, just listen to this, :.::::. Speaker,- free before rig;1t '-'P to the present time All HON, ?-EllEER: That is it 'Steve~ Get it out, boy, get it out. ; 1R, :lEARY: I am getting it out, I just •~2ntetl to see :10w aany 319

:rarch 9, 1978 Tape No, l ·J9 J:i - 2 i·JR, llEARY: members on the other side lr.naw that the beaucrats ;1ad put on this ~2J.OO fe(_, NR. RIDEOUT: The l·Ii.nister of Industrial Development, llR. FLIGiiT: The benefactors of the people, the poor people. :·IR. NEARY: "There will be a $20.00 fee for your new permit which will expire tile lst April, 1973. At that ti!!le if you are still eli;;ible for exemption you will i1ave to renew a;:;aln." :tr. Speaker, I would like to ask the Hinister of Finance anJ :he ;·iinister of Fi!;~leries if they are ;;oin~ to t.;lerate t~1is, Are they ::;oing to put up Hith this?

Yi'b.at are they tryin;?; to do, :-lr, Speaker? Are L1ey trying to cause a revolution in ti1is province? For the l:1.ot five or six years all t:1.ey have done is bring in resulations re;1ulattn::; peoples lives, l''.ltting the boots to peo;Jle, r~aldil(; it difficult to set a moose licence so you can put " Lit of •noose in t:,e deepfre.:ze for ti1e \:inter, a penui~ to pick blueberries, And t:1ey say, oh, no, do not worry about it. All ve are trying to do is ju:ot find out how T'lany people pick and 110w· many gallons they pick. It is only for statistical purposes. ~lext year they \;ill charge for lt.

Now He see the tests for t;Je hunting licences. They have people running around t;1e province, :·:r. Speaker, anu tney do not knm> if they are coming or going. Hr. Speaker, this government, Sir, are trying to regulate peoples lives from the craule to the grave. The next thing, Sir, you will have to get a permit from this crowd to go to t:a~ ;n,,n 1 s room or the ladies room and the f.!.rst year t:~-ey ~ive it to you, it will be free~and the next year you will helVe to ;:ay for it. I Llever sm~ t :1e likes of the regimentation, Sir, and the regulation~ an.l tl1e restrictions that are being placecl Oll cur r:eople.

It is 320

March 9, 1978 Tape 110 IB-1 MR. NEARY: shocking, and here is just but another example, Sir, of how the ordinary person in this Province is getting the shaft. What they are doing, Mr. Speaker, what the administration is doing is pushing all these people, these dwindling numbers of taxpayers, pushing them over the border, pushing them over onto social assistance because they cannot cope. A twenty dollar fee! Twenty dollars! Does my hon. friend have a question? My hon. friend did not see this?

My hon. friend, just to round out my stories about leaks in the Cabinet and so forth, my hon. friend I can understand why he did not see this. My hon. friend does not get in on very much these days, maybe of late. But there was a time last year when relations between my hon. friend and,as ministers refer to the Premier as God, relations were slightly strained to say the least - since renewed, I understand.

So I can understand why my hon. friend would not know that his constituents who are involved in logging and fishing and lumbering will have to pay twenty dollars for that permit, that little card they used to get, just a little card. They will have to pay twenty dollars for it. No wonder my hon. friend has threatened to kick over the traces so often. No wonder my hon. friend has threatened to come across the House. I can understand the feelings of the hon. gentleman, feelings of frustration. And my hon. friend would be welcomed,by the way. My hon. friend would be welcomed.

There are a number of gentlemen on the opposite side of the House whose talents we would like to have over on this side of the House. and there are a number we would not touch with a barge pole ~ and my hon. friend would be always welcomed. And as I said yesterday,the member for Naskaupi (Mr.Goudie) and one or two others, maybe the member for Ferryland (Hr. Power) even though I had to scold him the other day about the medical clinic down in Ferryland, about the skulduggery that went on there without calling public tenders. would still be welcome. The hon. gentleman The hon.

Minister of Tourism would not be welcome. He would be one of the ones that would not be welcome and 321.

March 9,1978 Tape 110 IB-2 MR. NEARY: yet, Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman would be one of the first ones to bail out. When she starts to sink my hon. friend would be one of the first to jump overboard. The hon. gentleman would be one of the first to rush across the House. And another gentleman, ~~han. gentleman we would not touch with a barge pole is the hon. member for Gander (Mr. H. Collins). Everything that the hon. gentleman touches goes sour on him.

The hon. gentleman has been in hot water now for several ' years and any ordinary minister, Sir, would resign if he got himself in as much hot water as the hon. member for Gander (Mr. H. Collins), the hon. Minister of Health. MR. F. ROWE: He is beginning to look like a lobster. MR. NEARY: Yes~the hon. gentleman is so red that he is beginning to look like a new-boiled lobster. Well, Mr.

Speaker, I hope, I appeal, I make a plea to the Ninister of Industrial Development, if the hon. gentleman would listen to me, if the hon. gentleman has any influence left in the Cabinet, if the hon. gentleman has any credibility left with his colleagues, if the hon. gentleman is interested in his constituents, will the hon. gentleman, I appeal to him, to the hon. gentleman and any other decent,hon. gentleman who is sitting on that side of the House who has the interests of his constituents at heart, would the hon. gentleman get this twenty dollar permit fee repealed at once?

What a hardship it is going to create on the small fisherman, the fellow who only buys a cask or two of gasoline during the season. Mr. Speaker, it is shocking, it is terrible. I could not believe it when I read it this morning when this gentleman walked in, a fisherman, not a big operater. It just ties in with what we have been hearing about the Minister of Fisheries lately. The han. gentleman only believes in the big companies, only believes in the big operators; no time for the small operators or the small fishermen, no time for them, wipe them out~ The hon. gentleman is being 322

7ape 111 ;'c - 1 ''R. ~~E~Y: carried away - carried auay with t~e big fish merchants. It is just in keeping with the policy of the present c'inister of Fisheries, of putting the l,oots to tl1e little guy. That ~as been going on for the last two or three years. :\.nd I said last year anc1 the year before if 'cour '{onour ,Jill remember - :md ccansard is there to prove me right - r,rhen I said that I uas quite nreparecl to sit bac1~ and give the hon. "inister of "'isheries a c:1ance. '3ecause fishery policy is something that you cannot develop overn.ig~t. It takes a little time.

And 1 S8id that I 'muld ;:>:ive t;,e .. inister of '.'is"eries a year or D·lO to shape up a policy nnd to tell us ·fl<'l.t ple.ns ~1e 1-J.ad for the c!evelonment of this fishery, and unfortunate).y, ~·r. Spe?..l:er, I saic1. I <·rould sit hacl~. I heaped great praise on t!-)e minist.:~r last session. .\nd I said 1 Pould sit back and r.;ai t ;md see ·hat hac>nens. "ell, Sir, r.;re "''ere in for a very great disa~poirtmc>nt and I can tell the han. minister that he is not held in very high esteem in this Province today at;'ong the fishermen.

The hon. gentleman vrent around the Province and held meetings '"i th the fishermen all over l'ewfoundland and said, 'Tell me what you want. l·:rhether it be 1-,ig or su:all, just come on over to the meeting - tell me 1vhat you lvant. ' And I remember out in Port aux Basques when we had the meeting out on the Southwest corner the fishermen down in my district, their problems uere not all that great. T.hey had a lot of federal problems.

But they asked the minister, ''·'r. \~in is ter,' t"hey said, - and I r.;ras there and I nleac1ed their case - '}'r. l·1inister, could 1ve have a few tub rooms? r:ould "''= have a place where if we hait our trawl anci the vreather gets bad and t<e cannot get out fishing that ''e could put our trawl in ~ freezer and we will not have to bait it over again 1vhich takes so much time?' ·~~r. !linister,' they said, 'can •..,re have the people dmm in LaPoile, the people in Petites, the people in Rose Blanche-' -I think it 1'as three or four colJD!lunities - said, 'J'r.

Pinister, can ~re have these tub rooms? ' Not very much, that is all they asl:ed the minister for. They e.sked the minister to back them on some oth~r things that '>Jere 323

't-larch a 1978 Taue 111 EC - 2 MJt • NEP._RY: federal matters, but basically provincial matters. 'l!o! No problem! Going to be done the next day.' r'r. Speaker, it is not done yet. It is not done yet. I get calls just about ever; other day from LaPoile district wanting to knm~ 'hat happened to the ~'inister of Fisheries. ·~ ,'hat !"taupened to him? Is ".e now gone over with the big comoanies and t'1e big l'oys and the big shots? Is he carried away?' I 1:nm~ he has had problems with the l>rel'lier. f.l< HON. !-®lEER: - could not get it done. '·lr. Speaker, I am not in a decision- making position.

If I were it Hould be done, I guarantee you, it '"ould be done! SO:'E liON. ?'E~'EEP.S : Rear, hear! It is the ~'inister of Fis'leries ·~1-to !:lakes tJ-..e c1ecisicns, "r. Speaker, and the people are ·~ondering ·~1-tat happened to the hon. ~'inister of "'isheries. The hon. gentleman that they put so much faith and trust in at the beginning has no'~ let them do~. ~nd I do not have to tell my hon. friend from PlRcentia. The hon. gentleman has 1-tad his share of troubles trying to get a fish plant estahlished in ArgentiR and all the bureaucracv and tre obstructions t'1at are thrown in the way.

And I do not have to tell any other hon. mel'lhers on the other side of the House about these 12reat meetings, t'l,.e results of these meetings that <·7ere held around the Province. ::r. Speaker, there is no sign of action at all. That is over a year ago and tC!ey still clo not have their little tub rooms. Anc ,;hat are ''e talking about in the -;ray of finances, S:i.r, th«t FO•!lrl give t!cese people the facilities that ~Jould save t:le!" thousanr!s of dollars and rr.an ~1ours? You are talking about $4,0'J'') or $5,')'11') a unit or less.

An,l nm•, it :i.s CJ good t:-ting the minister is not :wing aroun<' t~e :!'rovince nmo, Sir, holding his meetings uith the fishermen. 1-':i.t!-.. the imposition of this tuenty dollar fee on the gasoline tax exemption perr.ri