VOL. 2 PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD: 10:00 a .m. - 1:00 p.m . THURSDAY, JUNE 16, 1977 NO. 126

.!une 16,1977 Tape 4295 - "orning ~e ~ouse ~et at 10:00 ?.~. 'lr. Sneaker in the Chair. '!R. SPEAKER: Order, ~lease! STAT~S BY MINISTERS The hon. Minister of Justice. AH-1 ~r. Sneaker, on Monday, June 20,1977, the ~e1noundland Constabulary will be launching two programmes sponsored by the Federal (".overnment of Canada under the heading "Stll!lmer Job Core 77." The nurnose of these ?rogrammes is to hire :roum1; neo~le to work closely tvith local police for the three Su=er months. Of a number of programmes offered;the Newfoundland Constabulary has chosen the following:

(1) Crime Prevention. This programme will involve eleven peoole and will be confined to the policing of Bowring Park. Personnel involved in this nrogramme will be sworn in as auxiliary constables and will work in close harmony with the me.'!lbers of the regular force with responsibilities centered on the patrol division. They 1.rill wear a distinctive armband and carry the required identification as a rne~ber of the auxiliary force of the ~ewfoundland Constabulary. Each team will have a personalized radio and will be in direct contact with an assigned police cruiser at all times.

(2) Ooeration Identification. This programme will involve t~velve peoole,and in an attemot to discourage theft, will ?rovide an indelible marking service for items of prooerty for citizens who so desire it. Responsibility will be centered on the Cri~nal Investi~ation Division. A total of twenty-three young oeople who might otherwise be unemployed will be engaged in some very worthwhile activity during the Summer and it is honed in the interest of citizens that some very nositive results will ensue. These twenty-three persons were hired through Canada Manpower. 12408

June lE ,1977 Taoe 4295 - :·:orning AF.-2 ORAL Ol'ESTIONS Bon. Leader of t~e Oooosition. :'R. :\ORERTS: ~~r. Speaker, I have a couole of questions for the ~Unister of ~[unicipal Affairs and ?:ousin~ •.Jho is conspicuous by his absence just as he is usually consoicuous by his presence. Can the House Leader tell me whether the l!inister of - you know I have some very serious questions about the way in which the government have handled negotiations with the city ··rith resoect to Bill 101, the infamous act to abolish the city council.

But is the '!inister of ''unicioal Affairs e:mectec in the chamber this day or is he :1iding? Cowering?Cm;ering would be the <;ord. I am advised that the Minister of vunicioal Affairs and Housin~ will honefully be here before the "uestion ?eriod is over. He is in his office right nm·r and he has go:: caught in some ~oortant thin~ that he is trving to extricate hinself fro~. ~ut he will be here. '"Jt. ~OBF.RTS : :1r . Sneaker to a ooint of oriv ilege. There can surely be n?thin~ ~ore important than the business of the House. There is a Standing Order and this is the ooint on which ~y point of privilege is based.

The ~inister of Justice says the ~inister of ~unicioal ,\ffairs is cau~ht in more imoortant business. I 1;ould reouest, Sir, that Your Honour, irnr.ediately ask the clerk of the House - I think that this is the remedy that is needed-to remind the ~inister of 'lunicinal Affairs i!bO'clt the Standing Orders - I •.Jill get the citation in a "!oment-and to ask that the minister be ~ood enough to wait upon the House, there to attend uoon the business 'of the House so that we can ask ouestions about a very important bill which stands tn the minister's name and we can then disease of it.

I do not have the - I confess I do not have the - here we are, Sir, Standing Order 80: "Every l!lember is bound to attend the service of the House, unless leave of absence has been given to hie." ~·!ell, Sir, no leave of absence has been r,iven to the ~inister of ~unicioal Affairs. no reauest has been :T!ade. The Minister :!.s in the building and ;1e 1.2409

June 16,1<:377 Tane 4295 - "orni!:lg are told he has ~ore i:nnortant business. >Jell, Si:-, he knew the House '~auld adjourn until Fl :00 o'clock this !:lorning, that was in the adjourn.':lent motion. Can we not i~ediately have "word sent to the minister asking him if he would be good ~ough to step along and favour us with his uresence so we could ask him a question or two about an infamou~ oiece of legislation which stands in his name? ''R. SPEAKER: ~R. SEA!lY: To the ooint of privilege. "r.

Sneaker, the think the Leader of the Ooposition has raised a verv, very imoortant matter, Sir, that all members of this Eouse , as len~ as I have been here in the last sixteen years,and I~~ sure since Confederation,have been very discourteous to Your Honour in as much ~s they do not honour the rules of this House, do not advise Your Eonour when members want to be absent from the Eouse. I believe - and Your Honour may be able to confi~ this later, I believe I a~ the only !'lember, the only !".ember in this House '"ho notifies Your Ronour when I am absent fro~ the House and give the reasons why I am absent.

So it is a very valid point of privilege, Sir. I believe all - ~. SI~-l!!O~TS: Beg your pardon! There are others. I ,.rent to the washroom yesterday and I Phoned first. ~. N'EARY: ''Tell, I notify Your Honour in •n:iting and Your Honour is aware of that. I think that the Leader of the flpo osition has raised a very, very interesting and a •rery valid point of privilege of this House. And I believe the attendance would be much better and it would add to the decorum of the House if the han. members would follow the standing rules of this House. They do not even advise their whip Sir, let alone advise Your Honour.

It is very discourteous and I think it is something that members should start practicing. ~-· ~OBF:RTS: a quorum here. "lR • ~TEARY : Call a quorum. They are not even presenting '·Jell. if the han. members will just steo out I 1o1ill c:tll -~ ·lnorum and see if ''e can get the '·<inis ter of ~'unicinal 1.Z41.0

June 1.6,1977 Taoe 4295 - ~~orning Affairs to co:ne out. ~o havinl! ::tade that ?Oint, Sir, I -.rould like to have a ouor'tn call. A quorum call. Please. 'Je have a c!Uorum. nrder, nlease! Order, nlease! ~ecause the only members nresent were on one side, it anneared to me at the time there t·Jas unanimous consent to call it three minutes. Hear! Hear! '<ll.. SPEAKF.R : And •.o1e havP. had unanimous consent in other ti~e matters to ston the clock, to call the three minutes for a auorum - You did not ston the clock, Your ftonour, •tou hastened it . 12411.

June 16, l []77 T c roe ·: o • d 2 ': E · : ~. SPD:CEP : - or to call the three ninutes as well for division. So I think that that is procedurally approoriate. It would not be the first time that members present have called it three minutes for whether it is a standing vote or a quorum or whatever it is. So I do not think that that is irregular. ~e ~ere on a 'JOint of privilene and I had stated Standing Order 30 •·lithout aettino into the substantive matter brought up bv the han. Leader of the Ooposition. If anv other han. members have arqument to hear. The han. member for St. John's East.

"'R. 111\~SHI\LL: Your Honour bv way of observation. The I just have one argument han. member for LaPoile (: ~ r . 'l e a r

v) h as i n d i c ate d , you k n a 1·1 , that ''au m us t report to Your lionour and that he '"'rites a letter- i1R. ilEARY: i~R. tlARSHALL: ilo, not must. - or should report - and that he writes a letter and r.1akes a su~gestion. Perhaps, '!r. Speaker, "'flat ·.e ought to do is have a role call like thev do in kindergarten and it would be very appropriate, I would t h i n k fa r t h e H a u s e , D a r t i c u l a r l v ~~ i t h r e s o e c t to the han. gentleman there opposite. iiR. NE.ll.RY: It ~1ould be for the han. gentleman. because the han. gentleman behaves like a child a~yway. Hf\.

SPEAKER: Order, please! On the substantive noint of orivilege brought up by the Leader of the Opposition: 11umber one, Standinq Order 80 obviously states the duty of members, it does not provide a remedv. In my oninion the remedy ~auld be bv substantive motion. To the best of mv kno~ledne, ~lso, it is the first tine this specific ~oint has been broun~t ~~ 1.2412

June 15, 1977 Taoe :1o. 4296 ~ : ~1 ... 2 as a ooint of ryrivilege, that of the absence of a minister during questioning 9eriod. And our Standing Orders do not provide the remedy or guidance there. It bein~ the first time there are no precedence in this House. I am aware of the oractice in the House of Commons and it would aopear to me that that is the one that w~ have to go by. am aware of rulings right on that ~oint. could not now aive the ~ansard dates but obviously they could be ascertained. 3ut the noint has come uo in the House of Commons and there have been rulings to the effect.

Number one, that refusal to answer a question cannot be cited as a breach of privilege, and also the rrecise ooir.t brought up here, that is the absence of a ~inister during Question Period,has not in the House of Commons been re9arded as, or ruled as a ~reach of privilege. And our Standinq Orders being silent on that,and our precedents being n?nexi~tant -to the best of my knowledge it is the first time the point specifically has come uo - I think the House of Commons oractice is the one that we have to follow. '!!) .I • • f\OBEf:TS: ,"R . SPE .~'<ER: ~1 ~ • ROBERTS: ilR.

SPEAKER: Any of the Standing Orders similar? Similar to 30. Do they have one? To the best of my knowledge they would have one similar to it but I could not answer that for sure. i!R. ROBERTS: I think ours is quite unique, and I am not trying to be offensive_ but perhaps we might let the ooint stand until we can have a look at it. ~ecause I do not think Qttawa has that. They used to sian in everv month. ··~ FLISHT: 'line '1inistr:rs. 1.24:13 .·

Jur.e 16. 1977 Taoe .'lo. d2'?f ., .. - 3 I think we will leave it at that for now and then I can make a further study of it. ·~R .. P.rJBERTS: Are we back to Oral Questions now? The Minister of Municipal Affairs has condescended to appear. Could I begin, Sir, by asking the ~inister to tell us just what consultation he has had \•lith the City Council of St. John's. or their reor~sentatives, their officials ~ith resoect to this infamous Bill 101. '-iR. SPEA:<ER: ~ 11L DI'I~I: The han. 'linister of ·~unicipal !ffairs. :1r.

Soeaker, I am deli')hted the non. the Leader of the 0pposition asked that question. '1 R • R (113 E R T S : Good. have got a few more to delight the minister too. 'lP • D I 'I ~I : We have held meetings, as hon. members kno\·1, ~lith all councils, all concerned citizens and committees in the St. John's urban region, through the ausoicies of the Newfoundland Federation of ~ : unicioalities. The City of St. John's bovcotted those meetings 1 basically. They did not show uo at any of them. The last meeting some city officials arrived, the Cit'/ ~1anager, 11r.

Henley and several others,and became ouite aware of what Bill l~l was to do, it was to enable the government to pass over to this regional council, 1·1hich will have some elected people on it, some ten elected peoole on it, and provide for representation by election, ~hich is what we do not have on the ~etro Board. It would pass over the powers of the Metro Board to the regional council and it would also provide the power for the re gional council to assume control and ooeration of the 2av Bulls water svstem, which is somethinq that is comin~ on stream)hocefull~. in mid- J ulv, around Jul y l!Sth. :12414

June 16, 1'?77 Ta'Je "!o. 4296 ~'!<. lJ I r: il: So, :•r. Speaker, there has been all kinds of room for consultation. The fact that the city councillors, the mayor, city officials did not show up at those meetings is of no fault of mine. If they were not interested then they should have no axe to grind right now. The fact of the matter is everybody knew the Bay ~ulls Big Pond system was coming on stream. T~ere is a TAC Committee set up to co-ordinate that effort and make sure - ''R. ~nBERTS: ~ ~hat committee? ., .. -4 'IR. DHHl: A TAC, a Technical Advisory Com~ittee - ~·~ R . ''R. .. ,.R.

ROBERTS: or nn : ~09ERTS: !Jh. - chaired by the City Engineer - What do we not speak Ennlish in government any more? - chaired by the City Engineer, :•r. Speaker, to make sure that this system is on stream on time for this Summer for the Summer Sames, to make sure that there is no water shortage in the City of St. John's this year,and they are all aware of ~hat was reauired, the staff reouired. ~e are in the nrocess no~ of hiring staff for that svstem,to ocerate and maintain it, and the city and city officials should have been aware of every single item contained in this bill.

The fact that they did not have the interest or were not concerned enough to show up at t~ese meetings, Mr. Soeaker, to ~e makes me wonder what - '~R. FLIGHT: You are blaming the City Council eh? -what kind of responsibility we have in this city when we get somethina like that in The ~ailv 1ews this morninq. It could abolish t~e citv. 1.2415 - . - -------------

Jur.e 16, l'J77 Tilae 'io. c1.2?6 .,., - 5 '':".. J I ~PI: M r . S rJ e a k e r , t ~ ere a r e no o o •.-1 e r s oassed over to the regional council as a ~esult of this legislation that will not be aooroved bv the Lieutenant-Governor in Council. And ultimately, the ~overnment of this Province has control over any municioality in Newfoundland. ~~p . SPE.AKER: ~·R. q()~ERTS : A supplementary, the original ouestioner. ~r.

Soeaker, I wish ~e could debate the minister 1 S ans\•Jer- I understand '.·Je ~~1ill ~e a11owed to later today - because if ever a man was on a stickv wicket~and to mix the metaphor~ saw the ground qo out from under him it is the ~1inister of ··~unicipal ~ffairs on this bill. And his cocky arrogance will only reflect his - '!P. SPEAKER: Order, please! I must reMir.d the han. gentleman that there may well be an ooportunitv to debate it later but this is not the time. :~p .

ROBERTS: I thank Your Honour and I would hope the Minister of Municipal Affairs is a~ aware of Your Honour's rulinq as I am now that Your Honour has given it. ~r. Speaker, the Minister has confirmed that there were no substantive consultations l'tith the City Counci 1. He blames the counci 1. They in turn may blame him. ~ = will find out about that. May I ask him then what representations, if any, have been received from the city council ~ith respect to Si-ll 101? '~~. S P E ~ KE R: '·1 R • 0 I N tl : The hon. Minister of Municioal Affairs. 'lr.

Speaker, yesterday afternoon at the eleventh hour, around two o'clock, the ~aver of the City of St. John's called m~ in my office and asked if r ~auld ~eet wit~ them to discuss - 1.Z41.6

;u11e io, 1::77 T'! oe ·:o . ll2?6 .... - 6 "n i?f'l!'1E;:T$; ·:ha t j id s he ca ll ~~P. '1ini ster ? ·· ~ . D IrHI: - to discu ss ~ill 101. 12417 ...:

June 16, 1977 Tape 4297 PK - l :!r. Dinn: ~iow I •..ras absolutely delighted to hear from the ~yor, and set up a meeting for as soon as she could get her officials together, which was 5:00 o'clock yesterday afternoon, and I met with her, and Councillor Riche· And one might note that to get the Mayor and one Councillor from City Council to come into a very important meeting such as this is another idea of where the interest and concern is.

So they came in yesterday afternoon at 5:00 o'clock • We discussed Bill 101 from 5:00 o'clock until 6:00 o'clock, at which point in time the Mayor was concerned about one or two points in the bill, and we said we would get back to her on that. Outside of that she said she was delighted to be able to have been given the opportunity to meet with the minister and my deputy minister, and she seemed very happy at that point in time. So I do not know, Mr. Speaker, where this kerfluffle is starting or coming from. MR. ROBERTS: :fR. SPEAk"ER: ~!R. ROBERTS: A further supplementary, Sir. A further supplementary.

It is obvious the minister does not know this and many other things, and again we will find out. Xr. Speaker, can the minister tell us what representations,if any, have been received from the other municipalities within the St. John's regional area, either directly or through the Federation of Xunicipalities? C1R . SPEAKER: ~ .. Dim!: The han. Xinister of Xunicipal Affairs and Housing. Mr. Speaker, every municipality was invited.

As a matter of fact, in the last two meetings held by the Federation of Municipalities,concerned citizens committees were invited to attend meetings at Holiday Inn and Airport Inn to discuss regional government and different aspects of it. To my knowledge every municipality that was invited came to those meetings and discussed, in great detail, regional government for the St. John's urban region. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker,the minister,of course, did not answer the question, but he has that right. Let me then try him another one as he is dodging giving us any substantive information.

He is just being 1.2418 -- - - - ----

June 16, 1977 Tape !.297 Pk - 2 :-!r. Roberts: argumentative. Have the other municipalities, in other words. those other than the City of St. John's ; concurred with all of the principles embodied in this bill now before the House? XR. SPEAKER: MR. DI~"N: The han. Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. Yes, Mr. Speaker, all to my knowledge have agreed with regional government. Holyrood, as a particular municipality, do not agree that they should be part of the St. John's urban region. There are one or two minor exceptions. They did not disagree with regional government.

They agreed in principle with regional government, but they did not think that it would affect them substantially. For example,the Town of Torba ~ in their presentation to the Federation, indicated that-well,they were not against regional government but it should not affect them in the long or short-term~ ~ 0 the y were non-commital on it. But outside of that every municipality, to my knowledge,have agreed with and concurred with having a regional government in the region. :1R. ROBERTS: :1R. SPEAKER: :1R. ROBERTS: answer the question. Mr. Speaker, again A final supplementary, the Leader of the Opposition.

Thank you, Sir. Again the minister did not Again,let me try again. I said the principles embodied in the bill. Let me then put one to him specifically; How many of the municipalities have agreed with this Star Chamber concept of having - Star Chamber was an infamous court of inquistion which existed in Seventeenth Century England and it was not illegal, it was unjust and eventually was abolished. A king lost his head over it, and I would commend that example to the minister. The kind happened to be named Charles, but there has never been a king Gerald- but, Mr.

Speaker, how many of the municipalities have agreed with this infamous procedure of having one-third of them appointed by the Cabinet, given the Cabinet's propensity for appointing their political friends, if any? :1R. SP"R~: The han. Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. 1Z419

June 16, 1977 Tape !.297 P!< - 3 ~!R. DI).'N: :!r. Speaker, as to •..:hether any political friends ~•ill be appointed is a matter of conjecture right now. :!R. ROBERTS: Well! :1R. DI~: And we will find that out when they are appointed. MR. ROBERTS: Right. Alex Walsh will P.robably be adviser to the board. MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker - SOME RON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! l1R.ROBERTS: ~!R. SPEAKER: So none have agreed. None have agreed. The hon. gentleman from LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to ask the minister, in viet" of the fact,now,that the city, the ~~yor and some of the councillors have met with the minister, would the minister consider withdrawing the bill from the House>because as the Leader of the Opposition indicated it is ridiculous to think of forcing the people in this area to support another lay~r of politicians, and instead adopt the metro system that they have in the City of Toronto? Under the metro system, as the minister knows, 3.5 million people are governed by the Metro Board, and here we are only talking about 150,000 people.

Would the minister ceconsider the matter and introduce the metro system like they have in Toronto instead of going ahead with this ~ill in this current sitting of the House? ~!R. SPEAKER: MR. DINN: The hon. Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. Mr. Speaker, at this point in time it would be totally irresponsible on my part to withdraw this bill - SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. DINN: - from the House of Assembly. Every council, every concerned citizens committee, all except the City of St. John's;who did not bother to attend any of those meetings,have concurred with regional government in the region.

SOME RON. ~ERS: Hear, hear! MR. DINN: I have no intention of withdrawing this bill from the House this year. SOME RON. ~!ID1BERS : Hear, hear! 1.2420

June 16, 1977 ~!R, c:lEARY: ~, SPEAKER: :JR. :m:ARY: Tape 4297 A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary. PK - 4 Would the minister indicate to the House if the mayors and councillors that met with the minister's department, and met with the Federation of Mayors and Municipalities, if these councils held a referendum or gave the people in their communities, in their municipalities an opportunity to vote by secret ballot on this matter, or did they themselves just express and foist their own opinions on the people in their communities? ~!R. SPEAKER: Housing. MR. DI:ti"""N: The han.

Minister of ~!unicipal Affairs and Mr. Speaker, the han. member for LaPoile (Hr. ~eary) is calling into question now elected representation. You are elected to make decisions. We are not governing by referendum. A.J>.< HON. HE!1BER: :!R. DINN: elected. Hear, hear! lve are governing because of the virtue of being SOME HON. ~ERS: Hear, hear! MR. DINN: All of these elected councils came in, they presumably bring with them what their people want. They made their wishes known. I have got hundreds of letters down in my office with respect to regional government. I cannot remember having one not favouring it.

And I have no dissenting vote in the whole .. entire St. John's urban region for regional government. The only one that seems to be - MR. NEARY: ~!R. DINN: How about - -who is unaware,apparently 7 of what the people want in the St. John's urban region, the only dissenting vote I appear to be getting is the hon. member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary). MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: MR. NEARY: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary.

Is the minister saying then that the people in the area generally speaking the minister has the feeling of the people in the area, and that the people the~selves are in favour of setting up 1242:1

June 16, 1977 Tape 4297 PK - 5 ~!r. :i'earv: another layer of government so that we can have another group of politicians joyriding at their expense? MR. DOODY: HR. NEARY: HR. SPEAKER: :rn.. DI~: Certainly. Is that what the minister is saying? The hon. Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing . How can one interpret regional government as another layer of government?

This regional ~overnment wilJ have the ~~~ers of metro board which is outside of all of the municipalities, those areas that have no council now, It is a local government that tmuld have control of the metro area which is outside of any local councils. The local council will have their autonomy, that will be perserved, and we will have in place a regional authority to look after water systems, such as the S40 million Bay Bulls Big Pond, and major sewer systems in the area. And if the hen. member thinks we should build them and let them rot in the ground then he has got another thing coming.

There is more responsibility in government than that. MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker. A final supplementary. MR.

NEARY: Would the hen. minister tell the House if it is not possible,in order to look after this regional water system that is going to come onstream from Bay Bulls Big Pond, if it is not possible to accomplish the same thing by asking the municipalities to appoint one of their members to the Metro Board until such time, and the minister appoint t:he Chairman_ I am not condemning him for that at the moment_ and let the Chairman represent the incorporated group until they have a chance to form a municipality of their own; Would this not be the sensible thing to do? withdraw the bill.

And that is why the minister should MR. SPEAKER: The hen. Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. 1.2422

June 16, 1977 Tape 4297 PK - 6 :O!R. DINN: Mr. Speaker, I am not allowed to ask the hon. member a question, but who would represent those places that are not incorporated? MR. m:ARY: :.!It. DINN: The Chairman, I said. The Chairman would represent them. One representative appointed by the minister, shoving it down their throats, is that what you want us to do? ~. m:ARY: ~. SPEAKER: :lR. STRACHAN: No. Not at all. Every - The hon. member for Eagle River. ~1r. Speaker, I had a question for the o1inis ter of Tourism but he is not here.

I had a question for the Minister of Transportation but he is not here, and a question for the Minister of Mines and Energy and he is not here, and a question for the ~!inister of Social Services and he is not here. So the only thing I can do is ask the Minister of Fisheries a question. It is not a most important question, but there is information that the joint venture with the shrimp off Northern Newfoundland and Southern Labrador is to take place. Could the minister indicate whether this will go ahead, this joint venture in catching shrimp?

And exactly to what extent will it be,this joint venture in catching shrimp in that area? MR. SPEAKER: }!R. W. CARTER: The hon. Minister of Fisheries. Mr. Speaker, the joint venture referred to by my friend for Eagle River (Mr. Strachan) is one involving Fishery· Products Limited, and I believe some Norwegian fishing ship owners. My understanding of it is that it is really an experiment. They are finding out,first of all,the extent of the shrimp stocks in the area, if in fact they are there in commerical quantities.

We are hopeful that they are because if that is the case then it could very well transform quite drastically the plant, and the operation of Fishery Products in St. Anthony,and provide much more employment. But I am told the operation is going on, and like I said I am hoping that it will be successful. :12423

June 15, 1977 '~ • SPEAKER: !ape !..298 A SUJlnlementary, Hr. Speaker. A supplementarv. EC - 1 Could the minister indicate then '"hether there are any vessels available in Canada or available in this Province? I understand it will be orosecuted by t~"o 'ior-..regian \.-essels and I am wondering ·..rhy t•..ro ':or:;e~ian 'lessels rather than vessel!! in t'1is I'rovince, •..rhich have been in•;olved in similar kinds of operations ·?

I believe tney could be adapted or could certain!·• "'"k" use of the experience and talent that is here to be able to prosecute that shrimo fishery , ·us in!! vessels of this Province rather than ~lor-..regian vessels. ':F.. SPE.\..l(ER: The hon. ~inister of Fisheries. '·~ ~<. CARIT?.: vr.

Sneaker, the decision to engage ~:or-.<egian vessels I·Tas !:lade by a private comoanv, concurrerl with by Ottawa, and while it mav •.~ell be that there are ~:ewfoundland vessels capable of undertaking that kind of an exoeriment, the company for their own reasons, and obviously a?ain •..rith the concurrence of Otta,•a; have seen fit to engage these t~ro ~lor.•e?;ian ships. I am afraid the Province did not have verv much say in that particular asoect of it. ~'R. STRACHAN : ''R. S?EAKE1>.: .1. further suoolementary. A further supplementary followed by the member for Pindsor - Buchans. '!R.

STR.ACH~'l : The minister is stating that Ottawa is to blame essentially,but was it not also the oolicy of this administration, his deoartment, a number of nonths ago, short months ago to en!!a!!e in a joint venture scheme? And so therefore the administration has given its blessing essentially so that to blame totally Ottawa - I am just wondering whether we will tend to see more of these kinds of ventures rather than increase the ability of the 'lewfoundland fishermen to go and explore and to find out new fisheries in this Province '( I am ,;onderin~ if this trend is go in~ to continue because it alarms me.

I find it alarming t:o see this kind of trend usin!! <'oreii!n vessels col'ling in. 1.2424 --- ------ ------

June 16. 1977 EC 2 The hen. minister. ~-!R • 'L CARTEP.: I do not agree with the hen. ~ember's suggestion t~at I am blaming Ottawa for this joint venture - certainly I am not. ~!aybe the tvord should be 'col!!l!lending' Ottatva for it. I believe it is going to be a very 'tertht•hile e""eriment and I believe the results will be very beneficial to the area concerned.

I am told that the ~lor:•egian ships and so:ne of the :!!embers of the ere~~ of those ships do have certain exper~ise in the shrimp fishery and I presume that is one of the benefits that Fishery Products are gettin~ from the chartering of these two ships. But certainlv it is not the nolicy of the government of ~!eYfoundland to encouraS!:e the char~ering of foreign :;hips when in fact ~Tewfoundland ships are available to do the same job.

And I ar:~ sure that once the experiment proves successful, as indeed I think it tvill 7 then any foreign effort involved in that fishery will be replaced by Canadian and, hopefully , ~ewfoundland fishing vessels. '!R. STR.-\CRA"'l: :ffi.. W. CAP.TER: Are you sure it is an effort? And that is the stated objective of this government, to replace foreign effort •..;ith Canadian/~Tewfoundland effort. '!R. NEARY: ~!R. SPE.AY..ER: A supplementary to this, ~r. Speaker. One final supplementary and then the hon. gentlemen from 'tfindsor - Buchans. '!R. NEARY: ~r.

Soeaker, would the Vinister of Fisheries tell the House if this boat - and this relates to the question asked by my hon. friend - this 3,000 ton freezer ship that is going to be built by :rational Sea Products to operate in the Atlantic region to catch and freeze all species of the sea, if that ship will ooerate from a ~lewfoundland port? 1\nd if so, if this shill, apart from solving the problem mv hon. friend is talking about, is this the kind of ship the minister 'las in mind for the future to reo lace the foreign shi?s? .~nd also, would the minister tell the House if this ~ind of shio,like :rational Sea Products are building now, <>ill eliminate the glut, the 1.Z425

June 15, 1977 !ape 4298 EC - 3 ~!R. ~TEMtY: dumping of fish that ~e see going on in this Province at the present time? mt. SPEAKER: ~ffi. W. CARTER: The hen. Hinister of Fisheries. ~!r. Sneaker, the ship that the member is referring to, the freezer trawler bein!l; built by ~!ational Sea, certainly <vill be available, I suppose, to their ~Tewfoundland operation. ~ational Sea is becoming a very imnortant and,I should say,a ver1 good corporate citizen of this Province and they share our enthusiasm for the prospects in t'le fisherv.

But certainly that shiry, I nresume, will be involved in their ~·Te~~foundland ooerations as t;ell. 'nt. :-lEARY: Built in ~!arystown? :·t:t • W. CARTER : I ?resume Harystown will be qiven a chance to tender on that ship and,I suopose,all thin11;s being equal, if their price is right they will get it. That is not the tvoe ship that you tvould involve in the shrimp fishery - t:hat would be a larger ship. ~. NEARY: \·!hat about the dumping of fish? !'ith respect to the dumning of fish, :rr. Speaker, that ship could very well helo find a solution to that problem. But I should point out, Hr.

Speaker, in reference to dun:ning of fish that at the present time the Island is literally surrounded b;' codfish. Fishermen all over the Province are doing extremely t,·ell. ~'R. :'fARY: Thank r,.od we are surrounded hy cod fish! ''R. W. CAP.TI:R: Thank God tve are surrounded by codfish, yes. The catches are good. In fact, in many cases thev are too good and fishermen are not able to haul their traps and find a market for it.

We have recently had discussions tdth the local companies including ~!r. ~orrow of National Sea, and that company is quite t·l'illing to deoloy the draggers that would normally land their fish in the St. John's plant, ~.ey are willing no•.r to deploy those draggers else••here and make their St. John's operation available for the inshore trap fishermen, ~nd that c·re think, will "lave the effect of looking after the catc'les of t"-e 1.2426

June loS, 1977 ~'R. W. CARTER: ~~. ~lEARY: Will it be too late? ~~. W. CARTER: ~'R. ~W..ARY : ~~. ~ · 1. CARTER: :'ape 429(1 r:c - '" fishermen in the immediate area. 3ut in time to save the trap fishery? l{ell, they are doing it now. Right away? They are doing it now. 0P.DE!'.S OF THE :JAY Order 13. ~'ot:!.on, second read in~?; of a hill, "An Act To Amend The Liquor Control Act, 19i3," (Bill No. 120). 'lR • SPEAKER: '!R. OOO!lY: The hon. ~!inister of Finance. Thank you, ~- 'r. Speaker.

This Act is really a tightening of the regulations that control the sale of alcoholic beverages in the Province. !'art of this Act was on the Order Paper last year, but I deliberately let it slide off because some of the more important items that I felt should be in it ~ere not in it. Hhat it really ~as last year ·.ras a cleaning up of the old Act and taking out a lot of things such as the old script sys tern whereby you needed a doctor's certificate during nrohibition days to get alcohol and so on.

But it did not deal with, I think, what I thought at the time were the two most important items; one ~~as the trouble the police were having with trying to get a definition of drinkin~ in a public place. Right now as it stands peonle can drink in their motor cars or drink on the steps of buildings,and perhans in the lobbies of buildings and so on, and while the Trespass Act, I sun~ose, can control it to a certain extent it is the alcoholic situation that we are more concerned with handling and that is covered in this narticulnr Act and covered very well.

And I think ~rou Hill find that in the Act hon. ll'.embers have before them it is not defined as l~ell as it ,.rill be because there is an amendment which has to go in there to further define it. And I hope the Clerk has the amendment. It t·rill be (,....1). I am trving to locate it here. 1.2427

June 16, 1'?77 Tape 42?8 .EC - 5 ~. 'NlOTJY: Rut in anv event the second important item is the ti.e:htening up of the regulations controlling the sale of liquor to young people,and I think that is of vital imnortance. This Act verv clearly puts the onus on t~e prourietor of the club ~onth regarn to the sale of liauor to voung oeo~le.

Qight now they ve~r often sav, 1 ~ ·7ell 1 thev told me they ••ere nineteen, 1 or 1 i:hey tole! rne thev •.Jere twent;r-one, 1 and they ;:,ad this piece o:f oaoer tdt;:, thern, <'.nd so on, t·Thich t:he~r said demonstrates the fact that thev are of age. 'l.ight now the resoonsibility is not on the customer, it is on the o~omer and the owner has to be able to - if the :'erson to •~hom they sell alcohol proves to be under the drinking age then t hat is the resoonsi b ilitv of the owner of the club and so on.

I think that this 1<Till have the desired effect of cutting dmm on t'l.e amount of liauor or the incidence of liquor consumotion by oeoole >mo are undera ~ e because I think that this is a major concern and a major consi deration. It certainly is not the ans••er, there is a great deal more that has to be done in this regard. In the time that was available to us we ~t this ~uch done here. !n the clause bv clause t!l.ing if han. :ne111bers •<ish to ask other questions , of course, He can go through it. :'he Departments of Fealth and 12428

June lb, 1':.'77 Taoe 'Ia. 4299 ' !' 1 ?ehabilitation, tocether with the federal government of course, are workina on "~o ........ overall drinking oroblem and trying to find ways and means of curbing it, oarticularly in the area of advertising. think that the advertising

section of it is a very pertinent one.

Some of the rules and regulations which have been suggested ':J:; the federal government,and ... ,hich are being considered bv the provinces through the ac~rooriate departments and throuah the various liquor coroorations, are reasonable and sensible and ~orthwhile. ! think the Mst imoortant one that has been advocated, and one ~thich ''!'= ln!artily endorse, is the lifest'lle advertising thing, whereby it is cortrayed on television or in magazines or what not that if you have a bottle of beer in your hand or a alass of booze in your hand you are automatically goina to become a great athlete or you are going to have all the grand things in this world, the fancy ~otor boats and arand motor cars and everybody is automatically ~apoy providing they got this glass in their hand.

The elimination of this lif ~ style advertising, as thev call it, and perhaps their replacement by a straight sales oitch for a particular brand, makina it ~uite clear that this is not the panacea and the answe~ necessaril~ to a good life. I think is a verv worthwhile one. 'nether item that the federal aovernment is contemplatina 7 and one ~hich I think they are going to have a great deal more difficulty with~is the labelling of alcoholic soirits, the same way that ciqarettes are now labelled to the extent that the contents of this ~ottle ~a ~ be injurious to your health. ~nd ~~ile t~at in 1.2429

June 15, 1977 "::J 'J00JY : th<:ory is a good :1lan, and it can very easily be enforced on t~ose wines and linuors and beers that are produced in Canada, I find it rather difficult to imagine some of the French wine companies or some of the Scotch ~hiskey companies acing alon~ with the labellin~ of their oroduct just for the Canadian market. Thev ~av find a wav around that. ~ooe that they cannot. And on the advertisina end of it,of course, the biggest problem is not aoing to be with the Canadian advertisin~.

The governments involved, the senior government and the provincial ~overnments can agree as much as they like on the regulation of advertisina on televison or in magazines or on radio, but the major problem is how to cope with the same thing in the United States of America, in their advertising. The advertising done on Canadian television is relatively limited in its i~oact on the market compared to American television.

The vast consuming community in Canada are exposed daily to the American television s tat i on s and these are the o eo o 1 e i n r-1 on t r e a l , Tor on to and indeed in just about all of Canada ~ith the exception of ~ewfoundland and a few of the more remote places.

They get the advantage or the disadvantage of the American mass media and how that can be cooed with is a problem that has been discussed at several meetings and I am afraid that no solution has been arrived at. do believe that the only wav it c a n b e do n e e f f e c t i v e 1 y i s by .i o i n t c o n c e r n · a n d i o i n ·t control bv the United States and Canada. Hcoefull v the v will work out a solution to the advertisina oroblem because 12430

June 16, 1;;77 7ane ::o. 4290 ''R.. DOO:JY: think that is the preble~. The amendment that I hope one of my colleagues will nove at the approoriate time, is an amendment in

section 1 of the act which will be initialed (F.

l) and it says, "establishment means a lounge, restaurant, tavern, club, hotel, motel, tourist home or military mess," and then 1-1e insert the follo·.~ing after that which is ~hat i~ listed in ~ere. ~nd this aives the insJectors ~ore latitude in identifvinq an establishment because right now there are so ~~ny different classifications that some of the c~ners ~ana<1e to ~inale out under the fact that ours is a restaurant licence.or ours is a loun<1e licence and. vou kno· .. 1. •.-that is an estab1ishnent sort of thine.

So that will just make it a little bit ~ore sensible. ''e have a 1 ong ''lays to go_, I think, in this area but think that education is goina to be the answer more than legislation. think it has been demonstrated over and over a~ain that vou cannot leaislate morality. That was demonstrated very effectivelv and with 0reat social and other conseauences durina the orohibition davs. As I have said before the onlv thin~ that prohibition really did was turn a lot of honest people into crooks and turn a lot of crooks into millionaires. And so I think rehabiltation and education are goina to be the answers.

But in the meantime.of course.these ' . licuor establishments have act to be more strin<1ently re~ulated. I think,also,we have got to take a look at the oroliferation of liouor establishments. 12431.

J~H:e 16. 1?77 7 ane ·:a. 4290 :'R. :oc:JY: In ~any parts of the Province ther! are far too many, and I think that that area has got to be looked at over the next vear and it has T' - l qat to ~e reva~ped. I think that the aualifications, as it were, should be tightened up for ceoole who anrlv fer the distribution and sale of alcoholic beveraqes.

That hopefully will come from a study that is now beinn done ~v the Board of Licour Control which is somewhat different from the commission, the licencinn commission whose regulations we are amendina here under this oarticular act. ~nd so, Sir, I move second readin~ of this narticular ~ill and, as I sav, we can discuss it in areater lenath at the Youse's oleasure. '1r. Sneaker, if I ;nav.

I acree ':lith some of the things that the minister is savina but I sti 11 feel that in manv arP.as there are some thinas wrona with the business of the sale of alcohol .. ~nd I know from personal experience that some of the- one thin~ I can anree with, vou cannot legislate, there is no way in the world that one can legislate the reduced sale of alcohol or whatever way vou want to do it. know there are certain sections, or group sectors in the Province who have been advocatinn the prohibition of alcohol in Labrador for instance, total prohibition of alcohol. ~s far as I am concerned that is a verv easy thinq to say but when there was orohibition in effect some years aqo - it has onlv been six years now that the curtailment on the sale of yeast in Labrador was lifted.

Prior to that one could only get so many oackets of veast oer week 1.Z432

JJre 16, 1?77 .... because neonle were ~akina ho~e bre~ . 3ecause they did not have riahts like any other citizens to procure alcoholic beverages, and so on, t~ev therefore made their own and the problem was just comoounded eoually greater b~cause of these kinds of pro~ihition rules. ~ow what has haprened is that it is all ooened un so ~ide ~hat I think it ~as gene too far and the whole essence of it now is totally on a ryroqramme of education. Cut how do vou carry out a oroaramme of education unless you have some funds to carry out the ~roqramme of education?

And my araument is that the Province ~a~es a nreat deal of monev from the sale of alcohol and yet returns to the Alcohol and ~run Foundation, and to education in schools, and education on television and commercial advertisina, verv little ~onev, in res~~ct of the amount of noney accrued through taxes, to trv to educate people and to counteract the idea that one in order to be social must drink and in many cases, cf course, drink to excess. feel that there are a number of things wronq there.

In fact the oeoole in Han~v ~allev Soose Say, have been trying for so~e tiwe to set up a foundation, a very need~d found3tion in Labrador for t~e our~ose of trying to heln oeoole who ~!ve real oroblems. But onlv the~ can helo themselves. I think there is no way that !nv do GOOder societv, or do noo~er grouo can come in and do anything for anvone who is essentially an alcoholic or suffers from the rava0es of alcohol.

Finally vou come to the conclusion that one nee1s to hel;J one's self and be able to r,o to oeo::<le •.: h'1 can assist. ' n d the on l v 1 eo '1 1 ~ ~ ·tho can as s i s t are t :1 e p eo o 1 := .. , r o h il '' ~ :: 2 e r. 1.2433

..! :u.e 1 ·~. 1]77 lo. ~own t~at road before. That is t:hv ·.1e need t~.e tenP.fi ts of the ftlcoholics !nonymous Society. Thev are the only society I feel who have anv ability to raally cet to the root of the oroblem . think any other grouo enterina into that field. of course, tends to be very moralistic and tends to oreach and often do far more har ~ than 100d. ~owever. the essence of this ~ill is in the restrictions on ~eonle who sell alcc~ol end alcoholic beverages, ~oth lorJnoe, tavern and so on.

A n~ there are a nu~ber of ano~alies here. kno~ fro~ exnerience becau~e I run a small hotel. ~new that for ~v nart, and certainlv ~v ~ife ' s "art. ' 1 e t·r o u 1 C: 1 o v e t o s t o 'J s e 1 1 i n l1 a 1 co h o 1 t or. o r r o t·r j u s t :C e c a rJ s e selling alcohol always tends to be a business whic~ is full of 1Z434

June 16,1077 harassment, generallv. qowever it seer.ts that t~e only or.o~ay t:tat ~~otels or .:.nv othe-:- ~rcu;,s can function ~~d can o~erate orofitably in this Province is through the addition of a lounge or club to orooertv, to their business. Unless they have a lounge, or c~uh, or dance h~11 selling alcohol,most hotels in this Province would have to close down to~orro1~.

One can ~ake tr~endous orofits - I do not sav tr~endous, but one can nake fairly ~ood nrofits ~ecause the orofit ~argain in alcohol is high • Although it is not that high it is fai rl~r hi;!h comnared to the orofits that one can 'Ttake on the sale of food, for instar> .ce. ?eonle will be oreoarec! to sner.d an~"·'here from SlS to $20, to S25 in an evening for alcoholic beverages yet will not ~e nre~ared to soend any ~ore than S7 or S8 on fn~d with the result one has got to boost uo one's sales of alcohol in order to . keep in l:usir.ess. And this i.s true for ali!tost every hotel in this Province.

"I. think even the '7el~foundland Hotel, for instance: if it had t:o close dmm its licuor establishrtent would find that almost irrl!l\ediatel y it 1,•ould start to l_oose money and ... auld start to <Zo under. And so IJhat ~~e have is a societybuilt around the fact that one has to,for nrofit alone, just to keen in business, if one is getting into the hotel or restaurant area~one has ~ot to get into the liauor business and try to sell liauor in order to stay in business othe~ise one would be out of business totally.

And I know,for instance,in our own business if He did not have the sale of alcohol •.-1e would also have to close do~m ~nd as • .,auld most of the other clubs and hotels ri~ht across this nrovince. 5o it is obvious there are anomalies here, that the people the~selves are nrenared to spend that kind of ~onev and therefore make it lucrative for neonle to get into that kina of business.

There seems to be a tr~endous nroliferation of ta•.rerns being set up to try and creal!' t!-e money off people and then close down, burn down or whatever you «ant to do, ~et out of business, chan~e it all into cash and abscound with it all and to ~ell ~dth t~e conseonences. 12435

June 16,1977 Taoe L..J()O - ''ornin3 AH-~ YR. • STR.AC l~A ... '{ : I feel ~ost ~e:ini~elv t~at ~eo~le ~ho o~~ taverns, loun11:es, clubs ar~d so on shculd be strictly legislated and strictly controlled. I feel very clearly that the onus of resuonsibility is on the club owner, the tavern o~~er, the onus is on him to police :1is own establishlllent and to run that establishment in a ~ay which is in good keepin~ ~ith the morals and the laws ~hich are set down in this Province. And far too often t~is is not done.

Peoole just leave it wide open, allow oeor>le to carry on any kind of activities, drin?o; under age, drink after hours.

There see~s to be a f~eedom here and this freedom is creatin~ a tremendous wreck and havoc on the neople of this Province hecause alcoholism is nrobably the ~reatest disease now affecting oeoole in this Province and else••here in 'lorth A~erica. ~nd ! would agree that some of the sections here in the clause to clause.-we ~robably ~i~ht ~et into it- scme of the sections here attemot to rto this but in essence in the end it is ~oing to require that people be penalized •1ery SE!'!erelv if breaches occur under this bill here.

I know it is a very difficult situation to try to assess because many oeoole in manv cases will make any attemot whatsoever to obtain a~cohol. They will lie or cheat or do •1arious things in order to try and get into an establish~ent, or try to obtain alcohol one <~ay or another - people who desperatel·r need it with the result the owr.ers and so on are constantlv ooen to accusations and or>en to offences which thev cannot control­ or they have overlooked,or thev have not seen, or some such thing. And I think there has to he so~e sense in anolving this kind of legislatio!l..

It cannot be taken i.n isolation and iust aoolied. There has to be so~e sense in apolyin~ this kind of legislation otherwise one can get a ridiculous kind of law. But at the same time that ~ny clubs,for instance, it abhors tend to me oour alcohol dam~ neoole's throats and then if there is anv trouble call in the 1Z436

June 16,1977 ':C>.oe 4300 - "orning AF.-3 .:rwn establishments. Ar.d I think it is totally ~-rrong ·when clubs of this ~ature are orepared to do that kind of thing. I think it is absolutely wron~-they should be hauled into court • . \nd I think that even fining oeoole is not enou~h I think the only way to do it,in essence,in the end,is to remove their license. I think the aualification for license

section here indicates that oeonle 's license can be Hi thdra-..m and I think it should be. I know from exoerience • For instance, we run a hotel and we run a bar in a native cOMmunity in this ?rovince and we are ooen two hours a night., I know that even now 1o1e are subjected to intense pressure l::>y certain groups and so on ~~ho tend to feel that orohibition is the ans,-rer and the only a~swer. And of course I _just do not believe it and neither do the oolice nor sol'te of the other authorities because it will not work. And I feel that in this essence one has got to run an establishment with social and co~unity conscience.<\nd I also noticed here that there is a

section in this law which also states that one must run it with regard to the wishes of the community and the public in the area and run it in line with that. And that is wh~ for instance, we have to realize the problem and realize we must educate People to drink, educate people not to drink to oblivion, not to drink to become absolutely drunk and fall around but to drink so that they will socialize, thev will be pleasant, they will l'leet oeoole.

And there is no question about it that establishnents in which one drinks alcohol are establishments;- in fact,sorn~ of the few establishments in this Province, and in communities in this Province where peoole can meet other neople. I >~ow for instance in the community we are in, and other communities too,that before we had the establishment there people would come in and would not meet anybody else. ~e they ministers of government or l::>e they anyone else they Hould come in and they 1Z437

June 15,1977 Tane 4300 - 'fornin~ "''-· ST"~.C2-~T: would be set: a1o1ay in one nart of the comrn.unity to :teet the hierarchy of the co=unity and they ,.mule leave ar:d the~r ·~auld never meet the ordinary peonle of the cor.mtunity . And I find that almost every day through social drinking one can meet oeoole ~~d start to cross-fertilize ideas and start talking about situations and find out far more about the community and about the oeoole's wishes and desires than one could if one was stuck awav in a home somewhere and was in for a dav and gone for a day.

And I feel from this ooint of view it has often nleased me to sit down and see,for instance. Thel'!a!;istrate,after court was over, sitting 'vith an -::r:~p of:'icer or sitting 1.rith C'-'0 hunters and a fisher-::1an and a settler and 'Tarious 7'leonle, sittinll; around a table "eetinll; and discussing i and so on and that kind of a situation. To me that is heartening !lefore the establishnent TJas purely an area whe!:"e the 7".agistrat:e was on a nedestal and he came in and left and :he R~W kent to themselves as did the teachers and so en.

So I think there are certain benefits to he gained fcom a social mix but the thing is how do you control it[ qow do you keep it in such a way that oeople will learn that social drinking - and I mean it in its broadest term- social drinking is not a sin as such and the!:"efore it can be carried out in an atmosphere which ~~ill help peonle to g:et toll;ether and move together and exchange ideas. At the same time there must be i~oositions nlaced on these establishments 1o1here their concern is the profit motive.

And if they pour the alcohol down peonle then flick them out I think the onus ·of responsibility must he on themJ absolutely and without <'uestion• ~!e have held •.-1ith this nurselves. I feel that these establishments should be closed or certainly fined a fairlv substantial fine. I know,for instance,in Britain that if someone _goes into a tavern - I read of a case where sm!leone ~•ent into a - I do not l:now if 12438

June 16,1977 T:me 430() - '!orning this is the case in this Province here - and become~ drunk to the noint that one cannot ~.;alk or is :alling around and leaves that tavern and is struck for instance by a motor car that the tavern owner is liable and resnonsible.

I do not know if it is the same in this Prcvince, but there is merit to it and the tavern owne~ if he is ~oin~ to keen pouring alcohol into a man to take his money off hin, therefore must be resnonsible for whatever occurs to that man after~ards. ~ow I think there are limitations to tha~ Obviously, all imnaired drivers are not the resnonsibility of the tavern mmers but I think there are certain responsibilities that should he put upon the tavern owners. As a result of legislation- It seems to me Ontario for instance, has it. 'f!t. STP-o\CF-~~: ~-· HICF:'AN: Does it?

They hold the tavern nroorietor liahle under the circumstances outline ·! by the hon. member. ~. ST~~~: So I believe very clearly in some of these principles, have applied them 1.2439

June 16, 1!?77 caue 4301 ":C - 1 ~'ll. . ST?.ACFM!: and very strictly so. I know for our own case our real problem is in dealing with native people. The native people for instance will often be very sociable over three or four drinks and then all of a sudden, just in a matter of seconds will be incapable, totally inca~able , with the result that one is never sure exactly of !cor.r to handle them. :· ~ • !lOODY : ~'R. STRAC~T: He Iris h 1-tave a similar reaction.

Yes, I imagine, I do not think it is onlv purely the native people, I think other people are the same • I mean, many neoole do, the"7 ~et to the stage ~~here thev mana~e to - take some drinks and then thev just totally fall aoart. But I still believe that i n this case ~ere that t!"l.ere is an onus of responsibility on the tavern owner and t hat he should know or should be familiar enou~h or shoulc, in some cases, be responsible for what happens to a person afterwards and not just bail ~eople out or throw them out. The whole thing, however, hinges on education and I do not think you can legislate a lot of this.

The 1·1h0le thing is in education. And again the bill is fine. It gives some powers of authority, powers of control.

But at the same time I think the area which is missing totally is the fact that the Province gains so much money through alcohol sales and yet returns so little to the foundations and to educational authorities and to the schools and to advertising, unlimited advertising And this is where the crux of it is,that if they were really interested in trying to do something on this serious problem of alcohol and alcoholism then I think the only way it can be done is by the expenditure of money and not by tighter and tighter legislation. And that is the only process, the expenditure of -:ooney.

And it ••auld be interesting to see if ~~e could manage to get something to free up some of the monev that is brought in, because it is a shame the a~ount of monPv that i s 1..2440

If June 16. 1977 Tane 4301 EC - ~ ~!?.. STR .. !\C~W!: being spent on the Alcohol Foundation. '~at is given back to them is a small pittance compared to the amount of revenue that is gained.

I know for instance at Happy \alley - r~ose Bay, a group there who have nothing at all wanted a loan, wanted some funding to the tune of $90,000 or S70,000 - mavbe the ~'inister of ~ealth -.. ould know nore about it - and had great G.ifficultY tr-ring to get these funds because this monev ~.ras not available~ And yet _<;hat I am stating is that out of that whole area there must be countless hundreds of thousands of dollars gathered in the form of taxes. ~!!l.. H. COLLINS : I understooci that Paopy 11alley had to be funded through the federal government until recently. I believe recently, but still it is the same.

T:•e amount of money they get is so small compared to the amount of revenue that is taken into the Province. There is something like a set figure of say 10 or 15 or 20 per cent of the amount of revenue coming in that should be automatically given back~ some set figure rather than keep accruing the profits and just passing back small sums of money, because SSO,OOO or $70,000 is a pittance compared to the amount of revenue which is ~ained from alcohol sales in this Province.

So a percentage of this should go back to community grouos, should go back to dru~ and alcohol foundation grouos in order that they can carry out their '<ark in reasonai:Jle surround­ ings and offer an alternative to social drink and to oeonle ~.;ho cannot drink, who cannot handle alcohol. \-/here does one go, for instance, if you do not drink alcohol or cannot cirink alcohol because you are alcoholic through no fault of your own, because it is an illness as such - where does one go in order to socialize and meet? There are very fe<< olaces in this Province that one can go.

Unless you nlay curl:l.ng or sport or some form like that there is no place that one can go in ~.;hich there is not the pressure of having to have a drink. And it is so .,;idesoread that the Hard 1 drink 1 almost automatically means not a drink of l'lilk or a drink of water or a soft drink, it neans alcohol, <dth the result that 1.Z44:1

June 1'5, 1977 !ane !..3111 :::c - 3 ~<p_. S~\CHA~: that nerson is oressured al~ost totally and continuously to out in his :tand a -;;lass of rum or ,.;his key or something in order to be one of the ~ob or one of the grouo and to partake. ~nd for someone who is an alcoholic it is extremely difficult to be able to socialize and :r.eet people in some area 1;here they can have friendly surroundings ·.vithout having this pressure of ha·:ing to conform and drink. And the only way it can he done is ~v the e~enditure of rnonev.

And the bill is fine as such, hut I •..1ould lil:e to see a set sum of money, a set percentage of the revenue accrued to this Province from alcohol sales turned hack over to these ~roups and foundations in order to be able to set uo some establishments on a proper basis and reallv tackle the problem <-rith .2:ood education, good advertising and remove some of the advertising that is on television. The arlvertisin? camoaign against sMoking, for instance, has done a tremendous job right across the countrY. F.ven though we try ~~nv times and fail, it can do a tremendous job.

Surely a concerted programme of advertising, spending some of the doliars which have accrued through alcohol sales and direct them to people - I co not say wipe out drinking, one does not want to •,;ipe out drinkiniO!;. w'hat one •·1ants to do is try to educate people that there is a level to drink too and there is a social level and a moral level that one must r-~aintain. ,\nd therefore this can only be done by education in schools at the higher level, through advertising programmes and television, and to remove some of the programmes that the minister is talking about in ~~hich in order to be a he-rnan one has to drink a certain kind of beer or a certain kind of scotch and so on,whatever it is.

It is totally •..Trang. I notice that Segrams, for instance, are now starting a programme themselves. The distillers who are producing are now starting a programme themselves. In some advertisements in the back of some journals you 1dll notice they are starting to talk now about not drinking to excess 2nd so on. And obviouslv,t:hen,they have caught on to the fact that they :otust, in order to stop legislation - prohibitive legislation - theY must start 1.2442

June 16. 1977 EC - 4 :'F .• STRACHlu'l': selling the idea that to drink to excess is ~rrong and therefore, to drink socially and to a certain level is the way to go. So I think it is the only thing that can be done and that is all I wish to say on this hill. ~ffi. SPEAKER: (Young) "R. :~FARY: The hen. member for LaPoile. ~!r. Soeaker, I am sure that there are a nurober of peonle in this Clouse and i!l this Province ,.;ho could ~~;ive :r.v hon. friend a good argument, Sir, on social drinking and the fact that you have to go out to clubs to socialize and meet neople and make decisions.

It is unfortunate, Sir, it is unfortunate indeed that that is where most of the decisions that are made, not only in this Province, but in other provinces of Canada and ~ade in the nation.are made in taverns anrl bistros and clubs and restaurants where ~ecole get more loose tongued when thev bend the elbow a little bit. That is unfortunate. :!R. STRACFAT-1: !·!R. NEARY: ~·!R. STP.ACHft..~.'l' : :m. ~TE • .I..RY: wbere can you go? I beg your pardon? Because there are no other olaces to go. Well, ~r. S~eaker, the hon. gentleman says there are no other places to go, Sir.

Before '"'e got the clubs and the !lre,.;ers Retail outlets and the liquor stores and the dives that l>e have in this Province, people Here more social than they are today. They used to visit one another in their homes. But ··rith the advent of television and all ~inds of outlets for booze and so forth, we have less socializing today, less visiting your neighbours, less co~unicating with reople than ••e have ever had in our lives.

And if we have to go to taverns and clubs to do it I lvould say r.-od help the nation and the Province if that is where you have to go. to get a few under your belt before you can loosen up and talk. And mv hon. friend made some inter­ esting points, but the most imoortant aspect of this bill, Sir, the most important aspect of the bill is - I think I could clai~ an assist, ~r. Sneaker, on this, and that is defining a oublic olace. I think you 1.2443

June 16, 1<177 ":'aoe 4301 r:c - s could call this the ~Teary Amend cent, because I ~~as probably the only member of the ?.ouse ,,mo ·~ote the !!inister of Justice last year ad-vocating that there should be a definition of a public place as far as alcoholic beverages and beer in this Province is concerned. there ~as no definition un to now of a public place. And the big problem, Sir, in this Province -..ith teenage drinking - and that is ·•here it seems to be cropping ·~? more and more every day - ''R.. F1.. I C:H'!' : ~. ClEARY: All HON.

ME~ER: the drinking age to twenty-one. ~:!t. ~iE.ARY: ihey lowered the drinkin~ a~e. I beg your pardon? The big problem is that they lo,.;ered '·Jell, they may have lowered :he drinking age, but the big problem 1dth teenage drinking ,.;as that the la~.; enforce­ l"".ent officers were not able to apprehend, or ••ere not able to force the law as far as teenagers '"'ere concerned when thev "'ere in motor vehicles for instance.

They could go do•Hn to :he Brewers Retail, they could send in one of their buddies -..ho 1.;as nineteen years of age, bring out a case of beer, put it in a car, drive uo, park the car outside of a dance hall, a !'arish dance hall, and the Rem' or the :-<e<1foundland Constabulary, the la1-1 enforcement officers could come along and they could not lay a finger on them because it 1•as not defined as a public place. They could thumb up their noses at the law enforcement officers. And that is the reason for this change, Sir.

That is the most imoortant amendment to this bill, by the way, a definition of a public place :1Z444

Jur.e 16, 1977 Ta,.,e 'lo. 4302 .... - 1 · ·~ ··'• ~ l f.-'P.Y : and I am sure that this will j~ w el:o~e news for the law enforcement officers of this Province, especially the RC~1P. nR. DOODY: Haw about the parish? ~ 'R. ~lEARY: ~nd a lot of the trouble that ~e have at teenage dances is caused by that very thino, "r. Speaker.

You could call the la• .. ! enforcement officers to come down vou ~ere havinq trouble at teena~e dances, they would come down, there were groups of them in cars ~·lith a case of beer and the RC'1P uo to no~·/ could not lay a finger on them because it was not a nublic olace. ~nd this is an extremel y im nortant amendment and I am all for it because I have had discussions ·,.fi t h t !1 e P.

C:1 P o v e r t h i s c: a t t e r a n d I \·t as so mot i v a ted bv their hands beina tied behind their ]acks in this particular matter that I took it uoon myself to write the ·~; ni ster of Justice and ask that the act be amended at the earliest possible date so that this situation can be rectified. So now we have the amendment before the House and I am going to vote for it. This piece of legislation is probably one of the better pieces of le~islation brought before this session of the House. ~ow the minister referred - :1p. SPEA!<ER: Order, olease!

I have been notified by the Clerk that we must adjourn for about five or ten minutes. Ye are having trouble with the sound s y ste~ and you are not being recorded. ~1R. ~lEARY: ~h this must be recorded for posterity, Sir. ·~R. SPE.~KER: I will now adjourn for five or ten minutes. 1Z445

June l6. 1 !?77 Tane ·:a. 4302 Order, olease! The hen. member for LaPoile. 11R. ~lEARY: :tr. Soeaker, I aooloqize, Sir, for breaking the PA system, the recording system. I understand that this is the first time in the history of the House that the system went out of commission when a member ~as sneaking. And the irony of it, Sir, that we should be spea~inc on a liauor bill when the system conked out. And so , :'l r .

So e a k e r , I w i 11 just carr v on n 01.•/ • I hope that my few remarks are being recorded for posterity. was sayino, Sir, that - talking about socializing, there was more socializina, Sir, i n the o 1 d d ay s than there i s n a·~ , an d I w n at one of these ~eo~le wno advocates orohibition, ~ut I would say this, Sir, that there is too much of this, and we ~et it from the television too, there is· too much of this being led to believe that in order to socialize that you must be seen with a glass in your hand. :tR. Sim10NS: Sir. :·~.SPEAKER : 'I R • S Ir-~ t·' Q N S : Mr.

Spea~er, on a point of order, A point of order has been raised. r1r. Speaker, my good friend and colleague from LaPoile (''r. ~leary) is makinq some excellent points and believe the least ~e could ask is that there be a ouorum in the Youse to hear him. Could we have a ouorum call olease? ~·R. SPEAKER.: A ouorum. :12446 2

0ur.e l E, i?77 Is ther~ a cuor~n ~resent? There is a quorum present. The hon. menber for LaPoile. ;•r. S flea k e r, I do not k n 0\•1 h 0~1 Hansarri is going to record my fe•tl remarks that an ol akin a • am sure they are going to ~e disjointed. First a I reak down in the svstem, no~1 a ruorur:1 call. :!o\·1 it is hard for me to naintain the trend of t.1oua1t t h at I am on , ~' r .

So e a k e r , b u t I \·13 s - ''::! • H • C 0 L L 1:1 S : I t makes on e 1·1 onder •·1 h a t v o u h a '/ e in that glass? '.!hat I •,·ras really leadina CJD to, Sir, when I was talking about socializinn and how, so we have been told, that people today in order to socialize and to make decisions and get loose-tonnued have to no into cluJs and restaurants and hotels and qet a few under the belt to loosen them up, and then they become a big shot and then they can make decisions and enjoy one another's comnany a little more.

I do not know if oeonle, when they are sober, whether they can tolerate one another or not, or if that is the reason they have to socialize and get a few under their belts. But kind cf like the old wav myself.

If you want to enjoy your familv, take your little boy by the hand and take him down to a hockey qame, or take him out by the side of a pond and show him how to fish. or buv him a baseball qlove and qo out and throw a few balls. teach him how to catch the ball out in your back vard, have a little game of forty-fives in vour home, a game of growl in your home andhave a dance in the parish hall where you serve lenonade and a few sandwiches. In r:1y oninion. Sir, it would be far better to have milk Darties, to serve milk. l',nd I snake to the 'Jational " . ' ,a 1 r•tner s :1.2447

Jcrne 16, l'J77 Taoe '!a. "~3n3 ~ssociation the other day and suogested to them that instead of coffee breaks have nilk breaks and that if they were to put on the same kind of campaign that the whiskey oroducers put on and the beer producers put on, that mavbe they would have oeople drinkino milk instead of drinking ~eer and pop and whiskey and booze. !t is unfortunate that the oropoganda eminates from the beer joints, the beer barrens of this ~ation and of this Province, and from the whiskey distillers. ~fR .

Y 0 lHI r, : ~I R • ~~EAR Y : Sour milk instead of whiskey sour. \Jell that is ri nht and there are all kinds of ways that you can serve milk. 2 nilk shakes and all sorts of things. But, Sir, I do not go for this idea o~you know, having to have a few under your belt before you can socialize. I ~ean that is all right for the people ~~ho, I suppose 7 are in the business but for a fellow li~e myself, a reformed alcoholic I suppose you could call me, I am not goinq to - . ~.~1 HO~I. ''E~18ER: nR. i'JEARY: <VI HIJN. '~Er!BER: ~·R. ~EAR Y : The 1·1orst kind . No it is not the 11orst kind .

Yes it is. ~a I still take the odd glass of wine but - the tragic cart of it, Sir, is this, that every time you turn on your television this is thrown at you. For instance- and not onlv that but aoart from the advertising that is directly ounoed out, you know, during hockey games and that sort of thinq - for instance people who spend all their time in the afternoon watchinn Another ~orld, and one of the actors, one of the orincioals in Another World happens to have another connuest with a 1.2448

June 16, 1?77 T a ~ e :1 o . 4- 3 0 3 ··~. 'IURY: young lady and cuts another notch in_ a beam. just as they get out of the sack the very first thina thev have to have is a glass of beer or a glass of whiskey. And the same thing appli~s to detective stories, and there are ~uite a few of these on television, that once they solve the crime, once thev have cracked the case thev have to have a cocktail.

They have to be shown then at the end of t~e thin~. after all the mystery, and all this excitement, thev are shown then at the end of the proaramme with a cocktail in their hand celebratina the fact that t~ey managed to crack the case. ;nd the same way if you win t h e S t a n 1 e y C u p , i f y o u ~·ti n i n s o o r t s , v o u r, a v e t o f i l l ~er uc with chan~aane. r1R.

QOODY: Its a •:~onder thev do not fi 11 it up with ~~olson. ·• q . r1 E.'\ R Y : That is right, Sir, you have to fill her up with champagne and then the cameras ~re ~rought into the dressing rooms and here you have all the young people in the nation watching this and thev sav, "'.!ell boy ho•,o~ do you enjov the victory? 'Oh, it is great ~oy," guloing d01·1n the champaqne, and gets stoned out of their mind. And then thev are shown later, or reported in the newspapers or on the radio and television as - they had a great oartv, great celebrations, everybody qat stoned out of their mind.

T'1ey do not reme!"lber a thina about it but •·te had a great t i me . 1.! e 11 on the t roo h y . !./ e 1·: on the chamoionship and we had a great time for ourselves. ,,nd vou can ao on and on. If some corporation manages to ~et an agree~ent, ~anaaes to net a rood order or somethinn, how do they celebrate it? ''ith cocktails, ;,av~ 3 narty, invite ~11 the e""[llovees 1.2449

Jun e 15, 1977 •I' - d in, pass out free beer anc free booz~. Is it any wonder, ~ir. is it any wonder. ~r. Soeaker, that we have the problem that we have in our society today \•lith alcohol. It is the area test curse to our society and it is becoming increasinaly ~orse and unfortunately it is hitting our teenagers ~arder at the nresent time than anvbodv else. And, ''r. Soeaker, I am not advocatina J r o hi b i t ion . But I not i c e, and o e r hans the ;~ i n i s t e r co u 1 ri comment on this, tha~ over in Prince E~~ard Island yesterdav, the Legislature, the House of Assernblv in Prince Edward Island brought in

an act banning advertisinq on television. whether it be cable television or whether it ~e nor~al, regular television, and banninq advertisinq on radio and in newspapers. ~~0~1 there is go i no to 'le nui te a fuss about it~I hear, according to the late niaht ne\·ls I last evening, that it was the Government of Canada that gave the authority, gave the licence to the television stations to advertise alcoholic beveraaes and it is the Province now that is advocating a blackout in Prince Edward Island. Thev can only deal within their own ~rovincial boundaries, with advertisina within their own boundaries, and thev have now passe~

an act of the Provincial Legislature of Prince Edward Island that all advertising for alcoholic beveraaes in Prince Edward Island be blacked off the television, blacked out. think it is about time, Sir. that we took a look at similar leaislation in this Province. Now the Minister of Justice on a number of occasions told me that this was federal 1Z450

June 15, 1977 Ta oe ~~o. 43'l3 ''R. 'IE.~,qY: jurisdiction. Eut ... ,hat the minister did not tell us is that there is a case being tested in the court over in Nova Scotia and that case has been going on no1·1 for a year or t·.~o. It \·till probably go on for another couole of years. as long as the they will ~ilk it for everything it is '·torth. 3ut so far there ha.s been no decision. '\nd when there is no decision then the Province has just as much right and just as ~uch authority to claim jurisdiction as the Government of Canada has. There is no decision at the moment, '1r. Speaker.

Your Honour is aware of that, beino a learned gentle~an. There is a stalemate,no decision, the matter is before the Suoreme Court of Canada and until that is decided then the Provinces have just as much riqht to enforce the blac~out on all advertisinq of alcoholic beveranes within orovincial boundaries as the Government of Canada has. So I would like to get the minister's views on that. I know, Sir, you are goina to hear a howl from ~olson's, and the people who soonsor the hockey game.

Somehow or other the Canadian people have been brainwashed into believinn that the only way you will see a hockey game on television is - Could my han. friend just keep it down a little bit? lUl HO~I. ME!'BEq: Sorry! - that the onlv ~a y vou can see a hockey game on television is :12451. ·------ - - - ------------ -------

June 16, 1977 Tape 4304 PK - 1 ~!r. ~earv: if i t is sponsored by one of the bre• .. eries or one of the P.roducers of liquor and alcohol in this country, and that is not so, Sir. This should be provided as a public service. have the CBC, Canadian Broadcasting Corporation and it is owned by the people of this country, and they should provide it as a public service to the people of Canada, all sports and recreation.

Thev show other sports and recreation activities on television and other foolish things on the CBC, and I am sure that they could conserve a few dollars on some of the crap that they have on and use it to bring· a little sport and recreation. Junk. it would make you sick to your stomach. It would turn your stomach, No wonder they are having an investigation into the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation in Canada.

When you look at some of the junk and some of the crap that they put on,especially Canadian conten:t, !':OU know, neople are forced then to turn over and are forced to watch these commericals, and forced to watch crime and violence on television, and is it any wonder. Mr.

Speaker, a couple of weeks ago there was a certain gentleman who resigned from the House, and an owner of a television station in this Province spent I believe from 3:00 o'clock in the afternoon until about 6:00 o'clock in the morning repeating over and over and over again a conference that was being held down here at one of the hotels, in which the hon. gentleman was guest speaker. I heard the speech three times myself. But to turn over to CBC, you only had one choice, you either had to 1•atch that or you turned over to CBC, And what was on the CBC?

About the most foolish programme, it was one of these Canadian productions, it was supposed to be a mystery programme of some kind - MIL DOODY: ~. NEARY: It is a mystery to me how they get on. And it is a mystery to me how they get away with putting that kind of stuff on. programmes - And so instead of the childrens' MR. DOODY: The Canadian programmes, vou can classif'r t~em },y ~h.e langua~e. If the language is vulgar then thev are ~anadian nrogra~~P~ . ~2452

June 16, 1977 Tape 4304 PK - 2 :\ell t!:tat is right! Thcr is right, Sir! ~~d instead of the Childrens' Hour that was supposed to ~e on that particular time in the day, and every housewife and every child in the Province going right out of their minds going bonkers because they could not see their favourite programmes, were forced to ••atch this crap that the CBC had on that evening, Canadian content it is called. And the filthier you are.che more foul the language that you can use in these programmes the more popular they are supposeJ to be, ~m. H.

COLLI:IS: They get a higher rating. :rn.. ~"'EARY: The higher the rating they get, and the ~ore they get paid for polluting the minds, especially of the young people of this nation. So, Xr.

Speaker, I k~ow that over in Prince Edward Island they are going to have a row on their hands, It has been indicated now that the distillers and the beer barons are going to take on the Government of PEI and say, 'Mr. government of PEI you cannot black out our commercials because we have got a licence from the- and the T.V. stations and the radio stations -because we have got a licence from the Government of Canada to carry on. XR. DOODY: The Government of Canada Would like to Dass on the responsibilitv to the provinces. XR. NEARY: That has not been decided yet.

There is a case before the Supreme Court, and the Supreme Court of Canada will decide. But up to now the responsibility lies with the Provincial Government just as much as it lies with the Gove~nment of Canada. XR. DOODY: It does not make any difference to Newfoundland because we can control it hereJ we do not have anv overseas broadcasdng or telecasting, But the other provinces are in a real quandry,they cannot control what comes over the ~order. :rn.. NEARY: Xr.

Speaker, I k~ow there will be an argument too in PEI. as well as in Newfoundland or in any other province 1 that the television stations will not be able to survive without the booze, without the advertisements. And I know that the owners of these 12453

June 16, 19 77 1ape 4304 PK - 3 ~!r. ~earv: stations ~.;auld probably come down on me like a ton of brick for saying that they can survive without this advertising, and they will survive, and they will survive in PEI and they will survive in any other province. So this matter of clamping down on the advertising is something that the government and the minister should take a good hard look at. Now, ~~.

Speaker, we have bee~ talking in this House for sometime past about the probJPm of alcoholism in th1~ Province, and lve do !<now that 'le•.rfounnl,.nd ancl :rewfounnlander~ lead the whole nation in their consumptionJper capita consumption of beer. And, you know, Mr. Speaker, here is another thing that gets my dander up, and I would not have anything to do with making a living at peddling booze or beer. I do not think anybody was ever successful at it. I think eventually it catches up withthem.

I have seen men in my time make a lot of ~oney from lounges and clubs and taverns and beer joints, they ~ade a lot of money, and where did they end up, Mr. Speaker·? T!'\ev ended up,sometimes)alcoholics themselves or they ended up coming to some kind of a violent end. I do not think that the money you make at peddling booze or beer or liquor or alcohol of any kind is really any good to you. And there are some good men,and some good women in the tavern business,and in the nightclub business, and in the lounge business, but somehow or other this seems to be S'mOnYl!!OUs with that kind of business.

And on the ~inland, of course, we know it is infiltrat~d by the Mafia, that all of these outlets are owned and controlled by the Hafia. MR. DOODY: ~IR. m:ARY: Not all of them. That is not fair. Well not all of them, but I would say a large number, the larger percentage of them. MR. DOODY: In the hig cities. mavhe. MR.

N"EARY: And in this Province again you cannot operate a nightclub or a tavern or a lounge successfully unless you got a little sex involved, so you got to bring in a stripper from Montreal - and she is probably working for the Mafia - vou have to hring in a striooer in order to get people into your club, to entice them to come in, and the 12454

June 16, 1977 Tape 4304 PK - 4 ~ 1.r. ~earv: more she takes off,of course,the more business- and the more you are charged on the door - ~he ~re business they expect to get. So,I mean: when you look at it it is a pretty rotten society we are living in. And all of the other things ~hat are going on, and all the other attractions, and all of the other tempt:ations. It is pretty rotten.

And, you knm~, as I was going to say, Sir, the unfortunate thing about it in this is Province that people have been brainwashed, and taught to accept t~e fact that if you want to ~ke a fast buck in Newfoundland get a liquor licence, get a beer licence~ that is the way to do it. And so not only this administration but the one before it, but moreso this administration.have lashed out bre1~ers retail licences, beer licences, Sir, by the hundreds.

I would say that we have made more progress in Newfoundland in the last five years sinc.e this hon. crowd took over the governQent of this Province, that we have progressed more in the field of the distribution of beer and booze and liquor than "e have in any other field. I am not saying that that is 1•hat the hon. gentlemen have concentrated their efforts on, but it just happens to be a coincidence that the number of brewers retail outlets in this Province have tripled in the last five years, throwing the temptation in the way of especially the young people of this Province. ~ffi.

P.OVSE: (Inaudi)le) success to the people in the outnorts as you have in St.John's. MR. NEARY: And I spoke sometime ago about the Federal Business Development Bank. Thirty per cent of their loans - when it started out it started out as an Industrial Development Bank. Industrial development:, Sir, in my opinion, does not mean bistros and cabarets and nightclubs and lounges and beer joints. Is that industrial development? Can my hon. friend from Fortune Bay tell me, is that industrial development?

How could they fit within their terms of reference, when they ·are suppose! to be an industrial development bank- now the Federal Business Development Bank - how could they fit nigl1tclubs and beer joints into their terms of reference ·? AN RON. MEMBER: Che tourist industrY· 12455

june 16, 1977 Tape 4304 PK - 5 ~ !R . ~l EARY: Sur rhey managed co do it. Al.'l HO~. ~!BER: T:!e tourist indus try. ~!R. NEARY: Yes it was camoflagued probably as being a tourist attraction. So they managed to blindfold the devil in the dark and 30 per cent of the loans that were given out by the Industrial Development Bank)now called the Federal Business Development Banks, were given out for nightclubs, taverns, cabarets, and lounges, and maybe a few restaurants thrown in. And so our people are under the impression that if you want to make a buck, a fast buck, if you want to retire before you are fifty, if you want to send your children to school and educate them, 1Z456

J~ne 16. 1077 Tc.ne ''o. ''3'1:i n R . . 'IEil.RY: and you want to live her up, go to Florida for a holdiay in the :!intertir;e, cret into the beer business, get into the liouor business, get yourself a licence, and you have cot her knocked. ~nd so the govern~ent has been free-wheeling and just passina out the brewers retail licences riqht, left and cer.:re. '! o \·t , ~ ~ r .

S ~ e a k e r , •.-• e a 1 1 k n o ,., ~ ~-: e 8roblerr,s and imnlications of t~e drinkinQ that roes on in this Province, which is ~ore serious t han any ~t~er Province of Canada because ~ e consune nor e ~eer Jer capita in this Province than any other Province of Canada. '·'e are next to the ~ 1 orth\·•est Territories, whic h has the worst record and t~e worst reputation in Canada, and we are next to the ':ort.'n1est Territories as fH as the oer ca13ita consu~ption of beer is concerned.

And I clai m, Sir, that the onus of responsibility up to now for the proble~s. esoecially the teenage drinkinq, has been the loose way, the slopoy way, the easy wav that t hey have given our young peoole to obtain booze and beer and a 1 cohol. The identification card svste~ has been misused and abused, as the han. "inister knows. Ijentification cards are being oeddled, are ~ein~ used by Jeoole, by kids who are underage. do not ~ now if you can ever make the identification card tough enough so that kids would not be able to exchanoe it.

Thev ~ass them around from one to the other and you can qo all over this Province and vou could spot teenagers who are not of the aqe of drinkino in clubs with an identification card in their wallet belonqinq to so~ebody else. ~ow ~any times ~oes that ha"oen? ' ~d it is a j ob to catc h t hem. I t is a j ob tc ~ r o ve it. :12457

. ,., June 16. 1077 Tape ::o . .1305 ''R. 'i EAP.Y: The onus of resoonsibilit ~ uo to now has beer on the club owner, and on :he tavern owner. But now I understand this is going to change, or has chanced, that the onus of responsibility now will te on the individual. If a teenaoer goes into a club and buys beer or liouor, or soirits of anv kind, or even 1·1orksin a olace where alcoholic beverages are being served without nernission of the Liouor Corporation. even works there, no~ that individual is lible for an offence and can be charoed and brouqht into court and the oarents of that chilrl car. be charged.

So now, Sir, not onlv will the owner of the bistro, the owner of the cabaret, Or the lounge be charged, but the individual who breaks the 1 a~' •:!i 11 be charged. I believe there has been a few cases recently where teenrqers, individuals who have been under the age of drinking have been charged and have been prosecuted in our courts. And, nr. Speaker, I made a suggestion one time that a breathalyzer be established in every club and tavern. every cabaret and every bistro in the Province.

At first some peoole thoug1t that it was a bit of a joke, but now they are be~inninq to look at it more realistically. ~ow they are beginning to look at this concept across Canada. made the suggestion about three years that it 1e compulsory, nr.

Speaker, it be co111pulsory for a club owner to have a breathalyzer in his club. thin 1: the only reason it was sneered at at the tine was because people, especially members of this House, did not understand that you could have nortable breathalyzers. 3ut now ~e see them 311 alona the T r a n s -C a n ad a H i q !1'11 a v . ·.I e s e e t h e R C:, D 1·1 it h t h e i r r o a d 1.Z458 2

Jun<:! lc, 1977 Taoe '!o. 11305 .••. - 3 ·t~. '! E,.). ~ y : ~locks that were scoffed at, th•t ~ere ridiculed by the tavern owners, and the club owners. They said, "They are going to put us out of business. They are go i n g to b an k r u p t us a 1 1. " '·I e 11 h o ~~ cruel can you get? They have all managed to survive and we in the oro cess, the RClP in the rrccess, have saved literally hundreds and ~undreds of lives.

Because •·•e are told. accorrlina to statistics, that in ~ight·t-five oer cent of the accidents in this Province, fatalities and injuries, and property damage. in ei1~tv-five per c~nt there is alcohol involved and that should be enouah to shock and startle members and startle th~ oener~l putlic ri~ht out of :heir shoes. So this road block, Sir, has ~erfor~ed miracles.

I hooe it ~ill be continued, and I horye it will be carried ri~ht into the clubs, into the beer joints, that they be compelled to h~vP breathalyzers so that people would not go out and injure themselves,either as pedestrians or as drivers of motor vehicles 1 and go out and get picked uo and aet ~auled into court ar.d loose their licence for six months. If you are too drunk to drive or walk then the tavern owner should assume the responsibility.

It should be made mandatory that he be responsible for seeino that his custorrers are delivered home safe and sound if the 2reathal yzer shows that they are incapable of drivinq or walkinq. ~ow the hen. ~entle~an launhs at that suggestion. ~~R. R. HELLS: No. No. No. Suopos i nq I 1~as down in St .. ~nthony and I told them I would like to pet back to St. John's now, 1.Z459

Cur:e 16. 1~77 Ta;Je ·:o. 4305 .,.. , I - '-:" "" ~- ' !ELLS: and I would ~o an~ ~ave a few ~rin ks so~ewhere, ~hat would they do with me? The government ~elicooter would look after the han. gentleman, Sir. But the hon. gentleman is down in St. Anthony and he wants to have a few drinks, well there would be no harm in the owner saying, '"!ell now look. ''r . . Jells, ;t o :.~ ere driving back to St.

John's, t hin k you are un der the weather, I think YOU ~ave one too ~any and if ~ou do not mind I will have to take the keys of vour car because if you go out and aet in that car and vou ~et arrested for drunken driving or imoaired drivin9 or you kill somebodv, esoeciallY a little child, I am ~oinq to be held responsible for it. So what about aiving ne your keys? ~r what about ta kinq the :, rea t h a 1 y z e r t e s t :, e f o r e •t o u q o ?

" .'·l o ~~ t h e b rea t r. a 1 y : e r s hows that you are incaoable of dr i vinq, t~en I th i nk it should be incumbent uoon that tavern owner to call the oolice right away and say, "''r. Sob !·!ells just left here, he is not fit to drive that car, he is likely to kill a little . child a mile or t 1~0 from here. " Now what is wrong with that? 11 R . '·IE l L S : 'loul d the mer1ber yield for a moment? :' ~ • ~~ EAR Y : Yes, Sir, I certainly will. '' ~. !·IE L L S: I am not knocking by any means the principle of what th~ han. member is saving on the seriousness of drinking and drivina.

In my line of wor k ,I suppose,I have seen more of it and more of thr grief and trouble maybe than anybody else in this House~ but, you know, you cannot - if you or I are going out to drink you cannot take the responsibility off us and place it with the ~an who ~aopens to be selling the booze, And you could say the same oerhaos 1.2460 •. -- - ·-- ----- - ·------------- --- --------

.June 15, 1977 Taoe '!o. 4305 ·•q. '.!ELLS: •:lith the Soard of Licuor Control do;•!n there. You know, if I a~ going drinking,-or the han. member or any of us are qoing to drink we have got the resoonsibility to handle it, not to drink to the extent where we are a danger, that final resoonsibility is with us and ~e cannot ;Jut it off: as I see it, on somebody :1 se.

But the idea of some kind of breathalyzer in liauor establishments, not that it would be mandatory, ~~·' - 5 but for the convenience of anybodv who wanted to see \·J h e t h e r h e ~~a s n e a r t h e 1 i 1'1 i t or; v o u k n ow_. i n ·:: h a t sort of state, that ~ight be a good idea. You would run into certain technical oroblems. •·thether it "/auld ~e necessary to have a aualified o~erator or somebody li~e that, but the resoonsibility always col'les back to the individual. ~q. ~E~RY: Yes, Sir, and I concede the ooint.

I must say that probably in the heat of debate I ~robably went a little bit further than I intended to qo. Because, you know, I can be very emotional about this problem and I am sure that any member of the Pause - so I have to concede that my hon. friend js probably correct, knowing the la·.~ and the irr.nl icatians of the law and who is resoansible and so for~h.

I ~auld have to concede that mv hon. friend is orobably rig~t. that it would be very difficult to pl~ce the whole blame on the onwer of these clubs. 3ut t~ey ~ust, in mv ooinion, thev Must - it must ~~ comoulsorv for the~ to have a breathalyzer in their club or tavern. ~ow whether or not the individual then will co-ooerate and take advantage of the use of the ~reathalyzer so he will not go out and get aboard of ~is car and qet picked up for i~paired drivin~. even if ~e did not injure any~odv, the da~age to ~inself 2nd his 1.2461.

June 16, 1977 ia!Je :Ia. 4305 '" ' - 5 ··~. ~!::,;~y: faMi 1:1 c3n be ore tty severe as r'lY han. friend knows, especially if you use your car to earn a living and in the orocess then you Minht ki 11 somebody. So ! think it should be COMPUlsory.

It should be there for the convenience , if nothing else, of the customers and it would be incumbent on the owners and OPerators of these cl1rh~ ~nrl lounges to say, " ~ell look we have these facilities here, we would like for you to use them before you qo because in our opinion you 3re a lit~le bit tinsv. you are under the weather and we would not want to see you do any damage to yourself or to some other person. do not think the member would object to that.

T~e other thing I contend, Sir, is t~at in this great education programme that we have been talking about in this House now for years and vears and years, and this is not the first time it came u~, today, about how oeoole should be educated into drinking, it should be a part of our educational system, it should be on the labels of bottles and all this sort of thing. well, Sir, I think this is one time when I agree with the user pay conceot. 1.2462

June 16,1 977 Tane 4306 - ~orning AE-1 I think that neoule •.o~ho use cigarettes, :hat it should be socked to them because of the medical expenses that are involved, the occupying of hospital beds, the surger'"'• Well, yes I think I should pay if I ~eke the odd cigar and I ~et cancer of the lin· If I am warned about it and I am told that if you keen up the habit you are going to get cancer of the lip or cancer of the lungs that I should pay a tax on that cigar to take care of the day when I ··•ill become a burden to society.

And I think the same way with booze. ~au should have the user pay concept that those oeoole who consume and use booze,esnecially to excess~ then these people are the ones that should pay, taJqJayer. not the ordinary I do not know if the hen. gentleman follows t;hat I am sayin~. I think the ~ewfoundland liquor - what I am saying is that the ~ewfoundland Liquor Cornoration is the one that should ?On~r uP the money. The more liquor you buy the more taxes you nay ~y hon. friend. In this Particular case, Sir, we have an ideal situation for the user pay concept.

And the hon. gent~.ell'.an will probably realize, being ~inister of Finance, that is this day and age nobody really objects to socking it to the drinkers and socking it to the smokers. ''R. DOODY: ''R. ~TEARY: Except the drinkers and the smokers.

And you do not loose any votes even from them because they know in their hearts - I know '-'hen I •.o~ as drin king, tvhen many is the time I bent the elbow <·•ith my han. frienc! and I knew that I was doing da~age to myself, that if I kent it up eventually I would have cirrhosis of the liver,if I kent smoking tw~ and-one-half packs of ci~arettes a day I would orobably die of lung cancer. I may ~o out and get killed with an oil truck, I do not know,or I !'lay die of cancer just the same. ~. DOODY: Or a jealous husband. ~. ~ARY: Yes, orget shot by a jealous husband.

But the fact remains that if I continued drinking and I was going to ~et cirrhosis of the liver and I was usin~ the outuatients, usin~ the e'lter~ency facilities. using the Haterford Hosoital, occunying :1Z463

ju.'le 16,1977 Ta?e 4306 - ~orning AH-2 ~osnital beds, having surgery done through foolish nonsense,then I think that I a~ the one that should Day fer it and I should pay for it by adding on a few axtra cents onto a bottle of booze or onto cigarettes. But the user nay conceot,if we are going to get into this great education oro~ramme;should not· be taken from neople who do not indulge or do not smoke, let those ~•ho are smoking and drinking, let th= foot the bill. ~ow there are a lot more tqings that I could sav, I have not touched on the ~ore important asnects of this niece of le~islation, vr.

Sneaker, maybe when we are into committee I :ui!Sht get a crack at it a~ain. But it is a very, very significant piece of le~islation and it is one of the better bills, in my ooinion,that has been brought before this session of the House and I commend the minister and the government for bringing it in.

I hone that 'ile •dll see more legislation of this kind in the future, not that we can legislate morality, ~•e cannot, but at least •.1e can make an attempt, we can shm• the peoole that we are sincere and genuine in trying to nrotect peoole 1 sometimes _,who are their own worst enemies to orotect them against themselves and the vultures and the beer barons and the distillers of whisky and the nroducers of ru"! in this nation. ~. DOODY: (Mr. ~eary) 'v'hen the minister St'leaks now he closes thE' debate. The hen. minister. Thank you, ~r. Sneaker.

I think the hen. member for LaPoile has covered very well most of the ooints in this particular hill. As I oointed out in my introduction the ol--.1ect of the regulations of the Liouor Control Board as outlined in this bill are simnly to make it more onerous on the seller, disoenser, retailer, wholesaler of liouor and alcoholic beverages, to make it more difficult for the sale of alcoholic bevera~es, Particularly to youn~ people,with the onus of resoonsibility more clearly on the backs of those resoonsible for selling the alcohol to young neoole.

And oerhaos ~ore imoortantl~ ~s mv hnn. friend oointed out 1 is -for the f~rst time the very clear definition of a 1.2464

June 16,1977 TaPe 430r - ~'ornin~ AH-3 '!'1 .. DOODY: nublic place which in itself sounds very innocuous and very insignificant but it has been one of the nai or stumblir'.!=( blocks in law enforcement agencies invokin~ the spirit of the law or bringing into effect the spirit of the law with regard to the enforcement of the liquor regulations. The various points th2t have been raised by han. m~bers, particularly the member for Ea~le ~iver (~r.

Strachan) who brought for:-1ard the oremise that it wa~ absolutely essent::.al in nrder for a motel or a hotel to operate orofitablY that it have a bar and that a ma;or part of its revenue emanates from that bar_, I think in many parts of the country, and in this Province particularly~ I think that is true. I think many of these establishments, many of these motels, hotels so-called, the smaller ones particularly. appear to me to be not a ~eat deal more than a loun~e, a drinking area 1vith a small snac-k bar and several rooms attached for transients.

And perhaPs because of the size of these establishments then the sale of alcohol is a very significant one. And I think you will find that in most eating establis~ents now1 oarticularly across Canada, across North America the sale of alcohol is the least orofitable oart of their other operations. You will find that the sale of food is the most profitable part of their operation.

I have had it explained to me by various ,roPrietors of hotels and restaurants on the Mainland , the turnover of oeople at a table in a Particular period of time: the amount of orofit on the selling of food as related to the selling of liouor at that same tahle,particularly in the sale of bee~ A half dozen People will sit around a table all night swilling beer, the orofit margain on that beer is not as great and the turnover is not as great as it used to be and the emphasis is on food.

That habit has not reached the Province of Newfoundland to the extent that it should~ but hoPefully it will over the years to come. ~lewfoundlanders are not famous for eating out, are not famous for visiting restaurants, they 1Z465 ·.

June 16, 1977 Tape 4305 - 'fornin<?: ~ · ~. 1J00DY: are famous , as ~y hon. friend has indicated, for drinking out and for socializing. And I think the drinking habits of the peo?le of ~e1•foundland have got to be cnanged to a large degree and as has been said that can only be done through education) and where it has gone beyond that point through rehabilitation. Certainly it cannot be done through legislation. The point of legislation is to ~ake these establishnents as orderly ~s oossible and to regulate the sale of alcoholic beverages as · ~uch as oossible.

I realize that ~~e have a long wav to go in that rel!;ard. I do believe that we are Makine steos in that direction. I notice for the first time this year, and I think hon. members should :".ote. that for the first tL~e the vote has been placed in the Deoar~.ent of ~ehabilitation and Recreation for a detoxification center.

This is the first time ~hat that has been done in the Province and I think that although the vote is relatively insignificant in terms of the ~otal budget, I think that the significance is in the fact that the oroblem has been recognized and ~over~~ent is taking steps to p,et the thing started. :·!R H. COLLINS: We have more than doubled the financial assistance to the various ~rouos who are prrviding these services. '1R. DOODY : That is right.

I was going to ooint out the fact that in the rehabilitation area the Salvation Army Treatment Center is an S80,000 vote, the detoxification center is a SSO,OOO vote, there is alcoholism counciling for SlO,OOO and there are various other votes of assistance and so on for these worthwhile - ~fR. H. COLLIN!': The Alcohol and Dru!l; Foundation. ~"R. DOODY: The Alcohol and Drug Foundation gets a - t!R. H.COLLINS: It is more than doubled this year. ~!R. DOODY: It is more than doubled this year.

And while thev are a relatively small amount of the budget,as I say,it is a recognition of a very serious oroblem that is orevalent in this Province, more 0revalent rerhaps in some of the outlying parts of the Province. As for the socializing in some of these clubs and the oouortunity of ooliticians or magistrates or '1olice.'llen or 1.2466 ·.

June 16,1977 ~ane 4306 - ~orning AH-5 '':\. DOODY: whatnot to i!:et an onportunitv to !'teet the people ,,- those politicians 'mo feel that the best places to meet people are in those clubs and so on have had different exneriences than I have had. If a politician wants to get himself involved in a good sound brouhaha and a good sound battle and an arguement there is no better place in the world to visit than one of these drinking establishments,because there is very little to be gained from it.

I can only say, Sir, as I have said before that this is good legislation, that it takes a number of very important factors into consideration which had not been 'n'itten into law before. I move second reading. '!R. SPEAKER: Is it the pleasure of the House that the said bill be now read a second t:i!ne? Those in favour "Aye", Contrary "Nay", Carried. A bill, "An Act To Amend The Liquor Control Act, 1973 " re-td a second time, ordered referred to a Committee of the Whole House, presently by leave. (Bill No. 120) Agreed. 12467

.;u;:e 15, 1977 T.:~pe 'l.O. 4307 I -:·rould give a. C.ecision on t:he ::tatter brought up durir.~ r:uestion Period ~hen the Leader of the Opposition rose on a point of privilege ~th respect to the absence from the Chamber of a ~nister during Question Period. There are not many members present in the :louse now, and I '~auld hope those to my right and to my left •;ill ;Jass along che gisc cf the =ling to their colleagues, ';,ecause I ccnsider the ~atter of some importance.

First, Stand:!.ng 'Jr=er 30 i.r.. ~~e St2.nding O~Cers of this Legislature reads: "::very me:!lber is \:lound to attend the ser-Jice of t~e :-!ouse, unless leave of absenc~ has ":::ee:1 given ~o h:!..:!." There is an almost parallel in the Standing Orders of the :!ause of Co=ons, Standing Order 5, "::·.re:::y member is bound to 3.ttend the se~ice of t~e ~ouse, unless leave of ahsence has bee~ 6iven ~im by the ~ouse." Speaking to the point of privilege, the hon. me!!!ber for LaPoile (:~r. :-leary) stated that <;hen he is absent he has info~ed the Chair in writing of his absence, the reason therefore, and that is correct.

He has done that. I have not required it, and I ~ not requirin~ it. But on a factual basis that is correct. ne has so done. The statement of the Standing Order is quite explicit. \Jhat we have to do in this case notJ is to, number or:.e, nunber t:.ree, the practice in the :louse of Commons. !Jur Standing Grder is clear. Its application is not immediately clear, because •..re do not have precedents to my kno,~ledge on this specific point in this Legislature, and we have to bear in nind, I believe, the practice in other Legislatures.

In ~ay, page 218, it is stated - and this is under the heading, Attendance of :"e::~bers - "On ordinary occasions the attendance of :::embers upon their service in ?arliament is not enforced oy either :!ouse, :,ut "hen an:r special business is about to "be undertaken steps have been 12468

June 16, 1977 Tape no. 4307 ?age 2 - :ns taken to secure their presence~' ~e does not say ~~hat ste?s. But further on :·!ay says, "The machinery :Oy ~~hich the House secured the attendance of ~embers proved somewhat cumbersome in operation. In modern times the ensuring of attendance in the Commons has become a principal function of the party l!lachinery." And that I understand to be the \'h:!.?S, that it is part of the responsibility of \vnips to reauire attendance of various members. ~is matter has come up specifically on a number of times in the House of Commons.

And I refer to Ha!"_sard of Februa:y 20, 1973, ar.d I a_uote the Speaker. "I think it is unfair on the :;art of hen. members to make reference at any time to the presence or ~bsence of members of the ::louse." There he is speaking of members ~n -;eneral, not specifically ministers. Obviously ministers are ~embers and that ruling could "ell be aprylied in its totality. On April 27, 1973, a ~oint of privile~e auite specifically ·~as :nade •.rhen an hon. me!llber objected to the absence of a ::linister •.rho '~as sponsoring a certain bill in t!J.e absence of the ?rime Yinister.

And the Speaker of that date ruled that it •~as net proper to co=ent upon the absence of these ministers in that it was not a point of privilege.

On :·!av 2, 1972, the Hansard for the House of Co=ons, the Speaker ruled - the hen. ::te!::!:ler :JlV'e noti;::e to the C':i..:.ir o: !-.is question of privil2ge -"I agree t:hat ~e:r:-.a?S it is :10t al·,•ays cricket to nention the aiJsence of fello~J :;embers c f P~rlia=cnt. ~e hon. ~e~ber ~Y h~ve 3 g~ievance on :h.:.t ~asis ~ut I G.o not think that this cirievar:.ce can be ~rought ~o t~e attention of the Souse as a question of ;Jri· .. tilege." :::ere ::.re se•reral others •N"hich I •.dll not read, but one -.<hich ~ thi~k is quite :;e=ane and that is the Hansard of February 15, 1968,"'•r.

Speaker, 'The hen. member will permit !:le to say at this ti!:le that it is agair:st :Z:e usaze oi this :~ot..:.se fo::- ~0:1. Lne~bers to com..'=!.ent en the ?resence or 2bsence of other ~embers. It see!:".s to ~e ~hat tl:i.s is a ~ract:!.ce :. :hie~ is cr2epi.:1~ i:1to our debates. L2sc -:~·eek •:e ~e.:=.r~ ::e::!lbers ::::Jf ~;,e 12469 - - -- ·-- - ---

1977 ?zge 3 - ,_, ~ :-=-. Sneaker. Gover..:nent side referring to the absence of :::e:ubers on the Opposition side. Today we heard similar comments from the Opposition. I suggest to hon. members that it is not a good practicet" And that is quite a parallel, I think, to '~hat has developed perhaps imperceptibly, I think, unvoluntarily, 'Jut has developed ~uring perhaps the past couple o£ cJeeks. ~ere ~ave been comments by han. ma~bers on both sides as to absences, and it is quite clear that this is not acceptad parliamentary practice.

In genaral I 'vould only add that it appears ::o ~e there are certain courtesies which people extend to one another in various professions and occupations and obviously there are certain courtesies that peoole extend to one another in Parliament • • L~d it certainly appears to be the practice in the ~ouse of Commons and in ~estminster that commenting upon absences of one's opponents or one's colleagues !s not an acceptable practice and certainly is not a point of privilege. :\nd I ·.vould require han. members on both sides to accept that practice and to desist from further references.

The motion is that I leave the Chair. COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE HR. CHAIRMAN (MR. YOUNG): Order, please! Shall Clause (1) carry? MR. HICKMAN: There is an amendment to Clause (1) Mr. Chairman, by adding (F.l) "Establishment" means a lounge, a restaurant, tavern, club, hotel, motel, tourist home or military mess;" and by asserting immediately after why, the following. MR. CHAIR.'1AN: Shall Clause (1) as amended, carry? On motion Clause (1) as amended carried. On motion Clauses (2) through (8) carried. ~1R. CHAIRMAN (MR. YOUNG): Shall Clause (9) carry? The hen. member for LaPoile. 1.Z470

June 16, 19i7 Tape No. 4307 Page 4- ms ::1R. NEARY : Clause (9). I wonder if the Minister of Justice can tell me;

Section 59 (1) "All bottled spirits wine or beer kept by a licencee for sale shall, while in his possession, be kept in the bottle in which it was when purchased by him." Now how can you sell it if you have to keep it in the bottle? How can you sell it by the drink? AN RON. MD!BER: :$. HICKMAN: Sell it by the bottle, bottled beer. I think if you read Clause 59 (lA)" this part of the prohibition against diluting it, putting water in the booze. ::1R. NEARY: MR. HICKMAN: That is a little bit ambiguous there, is it not? I know. Motion, that the Committee report having passed the bill with amendment, carried. MR.

HICKMAN: I move that the Committee rise, report progress and ask leave to sit again. On motion that the Committee rise, report progress and ask leave to sit again, Mr. Speaker returned to the Chair. MR. CHAIR...'fAN: Mr. Speaker, the-Committee of the Whole reports having considered the matters to them referred and have passed Bill No. 120, with amendment and ask leave to sit again. MR. SPEAKER: The Chairman of the Committee reports that they have considered the matters to them referred, have passed Bill No. 120 with amendment, and ask leave to sit again.

On motion report received and adopted, Committee ordered to sit again presently. On motion amendment read a first and second time bill ordered read a third time now, by leave. On motion a bill, "An Act To Amend The Liquor Control Act, 1973", read a third time, ordered passed and title be as on the Order Paper (Bill No. 120). 1.2471

____ ..! __ _ June 16, l9i7 Tape ~o- 1.307 Order: 3, tlill :O:o. 21 ~tion1 second reading, a bill "An Ace To Amend The Stephenville Linerboard :-rill (Agreement:) Act, 1972 . " 1.2472 ------ ------ -- -- - ----- Page 5 - ms

Jun e 15, 1977 "'P . • SP!:.~!<ER : HR. DOODY: Ta::~e ::o. 4383 The hen. :linister of Finance. '!r. Speaker, the object of this ~articular piece of l~gislation is the amendment of the Stephenville Linerboard Mill Agreement Act, ~etter known as the Linerboard Act, and that is T - l the statutory limitation on the amount of money which the Province is allo~ed to spend on or at the ~ill in Stephenville.

At the present time the Province has reached its statutor.•t 1 irnitati on of s ll 5 '"i 11 i c n and \·tit h 0 u t the approval of the House the Prcvince is not in a position to advance any further nor.ev to the rr: i 11 . 0bviously 1 further money i s required for the mi 11 as ·.~as outlined in the budtJet and in the subseauent debate on the Linerboard mill, on the resolution.in which all the various areas were exnlored.

It was explained at that time by myself the rationale behind the budqetarv renuirement of S26.7 million and althouoh in passing the budget and in passing the Suoply Bill, the authority to spend the $25.7 million is in the budget . Nevertheless it is impossible to advance that money or any cart of that money until the statutorv limitation of the Stephenville Act is amended to raise the amount. Now the bill as it ~ow reads, Sir, suggests that an increase in the amount to be wade available to the Linerboard mill for its various ourposes be raised by $75 million.

Under the circumstances. as they now appear in Labrador Linerboard Limited, and as they were outlined durino the discussion and in the Budget, the number that we were lookinn at is $25.7 million and this looks strictly at a close-out situation. Wh~t we are suagestina in this ~articular bill now, Your Honour, 1.24?3

June 16. 1977 Tao e '! o . 4 3 n J is that it be amended to raise the statutory limitation by $40 million, not S75 million, the additional funds to be used, partially to help guarantee the bank line of credit which is now in place at Stephenville. Obviously as the

section 88 which the 3ank of ilontreal has advanced us the 1 i ne of credit on has beer. dra '.·m ·io•rn and the inventor~ and t~e fixed assets ~ave been reduced. Obviously the bank's security nas been reduced 0rooortionately and unless there is some statutory cermission or authority from this House. the bank security then is obviously not there. T~ey have no security.

So 1·1 e a r e as k i n g t '1 e 11 o u s e a t this time to vote the 527 million which ~e asked for in the Cudget, plus these additional monies, to ~ake a total of S40 million in this particular bill. ~ s say,it will serve to support the bank auarantee but more i111portantly it •'/ill be in pl2.ce in the hapoy event that some subsequent develooments occur durinq the coming months in which the situation, the close-down situation of 526.7 million takes into account.

Without some leeway in this ryarticu1ar Sill if we just asked for that 526.7 million obviously we ~auld be limited to that and it would qive us no flexibility in the event that bv a happy chance, and by good work and good luck that we manaoed to oet that mill on an operating basis. We do need that additional fund. I guess there is about another $14 million or 515 million leeway we are ~sking for. So we are asking now that

an Act to Amend The Stephenville Linerboard Aareement Act 2 he changed and the sum that we are askin" for would be ! ~as the House Leader qat that amount there on that s heet? 1.Z474

June lE, 1977 Taoe '!o. 4308 ''R. D00DY: The a~ount that we are now askina for I think is Sl55 million, as the - It is Bill ~o. 21. MR. NEARY: You are really asking for an extra ~5 million. Is that it? 1·1 R • H I C KI~A N : ~155 million is what you have written here. ''R. ~f'1'JDY : ~155 million is ~hat we are askina for now. The bill asks for Sl9n ~illion as it is before you in the House. So rather than asking for a S75 million extension, we are askina for a S4C million extension on the statutory limitation.

T~at is t~e 526.7 million that is in the 3ucget, ~lus that extr~ money which will serve that dual pur~ose that I described. ~e will have it there in the event that we can keen the mill going. "'P.. t:EMY: That is the amount needed to buy the golden padl~ck? '1R. DOODY: flo, I do not think it will be a golden padlock and I hooe it will not be a oadlock at all but in the event that we manage to find someway of keeping the mill operating, obviously, we are going to need some cash or some caoital to do it and,as say,that is the puroose of asking for the statutory authoritv of the House.

If we do not have it~of course, if we cannot soend anv more money, the Sll5 million limitation has now been reached and the mill just will not be able to get any more money and that,of course,is somethino that I am sure none of us wan~ t1R. NEARY: The purpose of this is to carry on after you out the oadlock on her. Part of this would be used to - :1R. DOODY: If the padlocks go on part of it will ~e used to reduce the bank's line of credit. Ti1e han. member for Stephenvi 11 e. 1..Z475 -------- ----- ------- .:::..

J:..ne 15, 1977 Taoe 'lo. ~308 ··~ .. "ClEIL: ~·r. Speaker, I am a little confused. thought the $75 ~illion would be ~re~ented in the House sc t~at it ~auld give the government some leeway to guarantee the operation of the Linerboard mill. ~ell right now the minister has indicated that he is only looking for $40 million and that would be the cl~sina cost. In other "lOrds the golden aadlock. '-'LZ. 'Jf10DY: 'iR. '~CriEIL: S26.7 million is the cost. ~·r.

Speaker, it has been said in this House manv times that the cost to the Newfoundland people to close Labrador Linerboard 'I'' - 4 is goina to be more than the continuing cost to keen it operating. J:..st last week in the local ~aners we saw a full oaqe and from the Bav St. Georae Joint Councils I~pact Committee pointing out some fa c t s t a t h e r! e 1·1 fa u n d l a n d p e a p 1 e , t e 1 1 i n g t h en the cost to the taxoayer,who owns Labrador Linerboar1. It is acing to be considerably more to close it than to keeo it onerating. So I am just confused.

I cannot see the government's rationale in moving in the direction that they are movincr. ~low the government says, "':/!iile \'e do not want to hold out any false hope to the people of 3ay St. Georae," Uey say, "•t~e hope a private contractor or a private firm, a orivate enternrise •:1 i 1 1 t a k e i t o v e r . " I f a p r i v a t e e n t e r n r i s e i s g a i n q to take it over, number one - he wants to make monev. And if the operation is not viable he will not take it over. So if there is any hope of private enterorise taking ft over it is brushed aside, if we arP lookina from ~ profit basis only.

And if we are asking orivate enterprise to take over and ooerat~ that for social benefits then they are 'the ao•1ernm2nt. T'•e ~overnment should be concerned with the social benefits :12476

June 16, 1977 Tape :;o. 4308 to its people. Just referring back to the ad, ' Labrador Linerbciard; "Your ?overnment has decided to close Labrador Linerboard for economic reasons. There are facts 'that you should consider." It g1ves seven points that you should consider on the top of the page. will table this piece of paper. I do not know if the hon. qentle~en have seen it already. ·~q. DOODY: The D a i 1'1 ~~ e~1 s . '·1R. '·1CNEIL: Is that an ad that has been in It has been in The Daily ~ews and the Corner Brook paper· as \1ell. Yes.

The difference between shut-down and ooeninq over the three years is ~28.2 million. The ~lewfoundl and taxpayers apoear to save an averaae of $9.3 million a year by having Labrador Linerboard closing down. But there are other points it does not consider, like for examole income tax revenue loss for the 1977-78 year ~3.5 million; SSA revenue loss ~1.1 ~illion, social security additional cost- it does not have it in for the 1977-78 vear - but in 1978-79 it is $8 million, and 1979-80 it is ~7 million. 1.2477 5

J une 16, 19 77 Tape 4309 EC - 1 Lost municipal =eplay S2 million, security of plant Sl million, water and stum~age revenue l oss $2 million, ~e1•foundland and Labrador 'lousing Corporation rental revenue loss $1