VOL. 3 PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD: 2:00 p.m. - 6:00 p.m. TUESDAY, JULY 4, 1978 NO. 107 --

.. July 4, 1978 The House met at 2:00 P.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. Tape No. 5036 NH - 1 HR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. SPEAKER: MR. NOLAN: PRESENTING PETITIONS: The hon. member for Conception Bay South. Mr.

Speaker, I rise to present a petition on behalf of 172 students of Memorial University, which brings to approximately 4,000 the numbers attached to similar petitions within recent days and weeks here in this House, and again emphasizes the desperate need for all those in positions of authority to get up now and state their position now before it is too late regarding the loans that are available to the students at Memorial University, bearing in mind that if the present policies that are now in existence continues it is a sure and certain fact that there are students who are qualified, who are intelligent, who have all of the merits necessary to enter the university, who will be barred from doing so on purely and simply economic grounds.·· It is .as simple as that.

So we can look · to the day this Fall when there will be many, many students throughout this Province who under normal circumstances could enter the Memorial University but will be denied from doing so strictly because of the economic policies as outlined by the Minister of Finance in his Budget Speech. It goes on in this petition to say that the changes introduced in the 1978 Provincial Budget, as so eloquently and dramatically presently to this House and on television, as though he were Grand Banks• answer to Richard Burton, by the !1inister of Finance.

Anyway, it says cutting back in post secondary education spending will.have a sedous effect on the ability of rural students to attend Memorial University. Is this an exaggeration? Of course not. There are going to be literally. hundreds and hundreds of students who, as this petition points out, will be denied the opportunity of attending the university this year and thus far no good,sound, and sensible reason has been advocated for such a situation. .Some of the figures that have · been quoted on tile basis of the increase and so on to the university

July 4, 1978 Tape :-lo. 5036 NM- 2 HR. NOLAN: state tllat this is similar to other universities in Canada and other Provinces in the Atlantic area.

But the true facts- and I may say that those at the university, including the students, have done their homework and they have come up with fairly solid information, if one takes the trouble to read, as I hope they will opposite,and members on all sides the facts as outlined in this petition which is attached, w111 prove beyond the shadow jf a doubt that here we have a situation where those in public life have for years been attempting to encourage students, boys and girls, men, and women from all over Newfoundland, to take the maximum advantage of the university opportunities, educafio~ai opportunities are available because of the economic policies of the administrationo There is no question about it thar you are going to have.some real trouble and very real anguish on your hands come this Fall.

Now then, because of the university administration, and because of the lead time that students and the university must have for students to take advantage and to enroll and so on, there must be action now within the next few weeks in order for the necessary economic and administrative machinery to go into place and also so that the students and their parents can make preparation, Because what they are faced with now is this, one, absolutely barred them from the university. There. is no way in God's world that they can go in there under the present scheme of things.

Secondly, they are faced with an even greater problem in some respects and that is there is little or no employment for them. Now there it is. That is what you have on the plate of many young men and women in this Province today. So, Mr. Speaker, I certainly hope that everyone in this House will pay close attention not only to the names that are signed, 172, but remember that this indicates over 4,000 names that we have tabled in this House within recent days, over 4,000. And if anyone

July 4, 1978 Tape No. 5036 tiH - 3 !1R. NOLA..'~: thinks that with the long hot Summer this is going to die,well I have news, Mr. Speaker, for all those in this House of Assembly. Because we on this side will continue to keep these petitions alive as much as we can and focus, on them in every way possible throughout the Summer and Fall months. It is not something that may

July 4,1978 Tape No. 5037 Ali-1 :iR. NOLAN: die here with t~e closing of this House of Assembly anc..i if anyone thin!.s this is so they are making the mistake of their life. So, t-!r. Speaker, I plead with the :1inister of Education I have given up on the Hinister of Finance I plead that someone pay some real attention to the situation that these students are faced with.

There are a number of them who have been carrying on the point,if you like,and coming to the House each day and so on but they are not alone, t:hey are merely the representatives, not only of the students at university but all those that will be coming in the na~t couple of years and their parents, their parents who have to try to find out a way, one ,for them to enter the university, to cover their tuition costs, to cover their residence while they are in there and a little bit of pocket money that they can get.

In addition to that this Summer with construction a~·the-iowest ·ebb"possible there are fewer and fewer jobs for the many students who need money, who must have some money to go to the university and so it is they have a terrible economic cross to bear and it is our business as legislators to see that we are a\iare of their problems and to make every effort t':lat we can, which has not been in evidence thus far, to see to it that they get a chance to enter the university this year. Mr.

Speaker, I have much pleasure- although I am sorry to do so; I wish I did not have-to do so; I wish I did not have this problem and they did not have this problem-but I certainly support the prayer of this petition. HR. SPEAKER: Hon. Leader of the Opposition. HR.W.ROWE: Thank you, Sir. I rise again, Sir, I suppose for the seventh or eighth time during this session .of the House, to support this petition so admirably presented by my hon. friend and colleague the member for Conception Bay South (Mr.Nolan). On this subject, Nr.

Speaker, there have of course been a dozen other petitions on the general subject of cutbacks in education. I have had the honour and the pleasure of presenting two or three of these petitions as exemplified by my hon. friend's presentation today: this type.·of petition I ~ave presented two or. three myself and was delighted and honoured to do so.

July 4,1Si8 Tape No. 5037 AH-2 Hr. Speaker, not only is the need which has been outlined in the petition an important one, Sir, but I believe that some of the best debate of this session of the House, some of the best,not certainly the best necessary, but some of the best debate, some of the best points made during this seesion of the liouse have been made on the presentation of these petitions on the subject of this government's cutback in the education system of our Province. A...'l HON. c!E11BER Hear, hear!

HR. !-/.ROWE: Sir, if these petitions serve no other useful purpose but his one, Sir, it has certainly been worthwhile haveing the petitions brought before this House and argued about and,- although we are not suppose to debate when petitions are presented, Sir, have what amounts to a debate '"''II:''" .•. -~ on some of these very important issues. Hr. Speaker, I understand that within the next few days, if he has not received it already, the ~linister 6f Education will be receiving the Task Force Report on education. Could the minister indicate whether he has received it or not yet , the ~tinister of Education.

HR. F. ROl-lE: Today is the deadline. HR. I~.N. ROWE: He has received it today. &.: 1101-7. m:t-:BER: He has not had a chance to read it yet. l·lR. W.N. ROWE: I do not know if he has had an opportunity to look at it, Sir. !-!!{.NEARY: That will only take fifty seconds.

HR.W.ROWE: The Task Force that was set up by the minister was~certainly I do not t~ink,was adequate and covered enough ground or covered enough of the interest groups which are vitally concerned tv.Lth education in the Province, but, Sir, I suppose it is better than nothing at all, a~though when we see t~hat the substance of the Task Force Report as we will be able to make a better judgement on that.

I call upon the minister today, Sir, to give us some indication if he has read the report. as to what has· been recommended by this Task Force,or at least indicate to us when we can have our own copies so that '•e can study it and see what. these two gentlemen, at least, these two 3entlemen concerned with very narrow disciplines within the field of education have had to say about education generally in the ---.,:__.

July 4,1973 Tape ;io. 5i.l3 7 AH-3 i·L'\. i~.ROI.'E: Province and particularly since we are on this particular subject of cutbacks in university education standards, cutbacks in the expenditure on university,perhaps we can hear what these two gentlemen,although they have very naTrow disciplines and would not cover the ~Thole gamut, at least we can hear what these two gentlemen have had to say. Hr. Speaker, let me make two points which have already been cade but which bear repeating.

One, Sir, is that no govern:nent which claims to represent the people, the rank and file of the people of this Province can tolerate a situation where even one individual who has the talent, the qualifications and the ability to do so is deprived of a university or a trade school

July· 4,1978 Tape 5038 1)!·! - 1 :·m.. t·7 • ~! . ?.0~-lE : or any education, Sir, any further training :!Ill university or some other 'institute cif higher leiiming, Sir, if any individual is deprived because of financial reasons then any government t~hich tolerates that stands condemned and should stand condemned in the eyes of the ordinary people of this Province. And secondly, Sir, this point has already been made by my hon. friend,most forcefully by my han. friend for LaPoile (Hr. Neary), but again it bears repeating.

The situation that the students are complaining about and have done so articulately in a couple of briefs and in their petitions to this House and in their demonstration out .here and on the public airwa.ys ,.·.S-i.r, -the. situatiott they are complain~ng about is made even worse by the fact that as a result of the poor,adverse, inadequate financial and economic policies of this government, Sir, there are ·very few if any Summer jobs available to students in this Province this year.

And so, Sir, ordinarily it t~ould be bad enough for students to have to dip· into their own meager resources or non~existant resources or their parents' meager resources or to go hopelessly head-over-heels in debt, that would be bad enough, Hr. Speaker, but usually at least in past years in,say 1 before the last six or seven years,many students could count on gettinB Summer employment to help bear part of this financial burden-.

Now, Sir, they cannot even depend on that 1 and this poor economic·management and fanancial planning is going to also contribute to the fact that hundreds of qualified, worthy indiv;hduals,young men and women in. this Province,this Summer and this Fall are not going to be able to pursue a higher education , the higher education which they should be able to pursue, t1r. Speaker, And who is going to be the loser there,. Hr. Speaker?

Not only the individuals concerned, Sir, but future generations of Net~foundlanders generally will be the losers as a result of this poor,retrograde, retrogressive unprogressive policy of the present administration· regarding higher education. Sm!E liON. t·!ENBERS: Hear, hear~ tlR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Eagle River. --

July 4,1973 Tape 5038 · DH - 2 Hr.

Speaker in rising to support the prayer of this petition I note that the 172 names of the 4,000 names that we presented so far 1 these 172 are names of students from rural and,I ~ould imagine,fairly isolated areas of this Province and last time when I was on my feet on the same topic it was to that point that I addressed myself and I again have pleasure in doing so and 1dll continue to do so,because I think that the students 1v!1o are going to be hit the most by this are going to be the students from these rural and isolated areas and especially,as I put forward my point before,especially those students from Labrador and isolated parts of Labrador who are faced with tremendous burdens already without having placed on them an additional economic burden.

It is difficull: enough for students living in St. John's,t~hose families live in St •.

John's,to attend university and to financially scrape through the situation through university,but for students who come from isolated and rural areas the borrowing is twice -fold or three times that much and I think the emphasis should be on student assistance and I suggest last time the policy of bursaries or bursary system for students from these areas so that students with a high academic record from small communities and small schools, small areas would have an opportunity of winning such bursaries to assist them in meeting the already high cost they are faced ~rith.

I also asked the :·!inister of Education to indicate to us exactly how much would be saved in the Public Treasury by the system of inflicting higher costs on the students. To me it seems to be socking it to the students

whereas ~<hen we look around we see some extravagances, a· considerable amount,and in Labrador we have seen a ccnsic!eraol~ amount there of money that has been wasted,money spent for very little returns and yet here tve are socking it to the students ,asking the students . to pay more and more when in essence they should be assisted more and more· the reverse, the very reverse of the position. I think this subject needs to be aired many, many times and hopefully the minister will take a position on ~Vhich he will outline to us exactly how much money will be saved by the treasury -­..... :_.

july 4, 1'?78 Tape 5038 DH - 3 ::R. I. STRACHJ\J.'J: in his system of cutbacks in schools, and the teachers in schools as well as the situation with the increase to students at university. I think there must be many other ·ways in which the administration 1if they wanted to 1could cut back. •-C""' ••• --

Ju 1 y 4, .1978 Tape 5039 PK - 1 Mr. Strachan: I am sure the cost of two Canso water bombers with $400,000 out on a sale,surely if that was examined carefully one could find that many students could be financed with a university education through a correction of errors and extr~vagances, mistakes, rather than to sock it to the student,sock it to especially the rural student who has got to come in here,pay for his residence which is a very high cost, high cost of loans, and also the possibility that when .he is finished he may have to leave the Province in order to find a job in order to repay these high loans.

I think there is no question about it. There is no more ignorant way, I think, of attacking a problem of solving the economic situation of the Province than to sock it to the students. And this is exactly what this administration has done.

There must be many other ways it could have been done, many other ways it could have been saved, many other ways the fat could be trimmed off, that extravagant . mistakes would not be made, that pure follies would not be made so that the student would be given every opportunity and every encouragement to carry on his education and become a better person for it. support the prayer of the petition and hopefully the Minister of Education can tell us exactly how much money will be saved to the Public Treasury by this system of cutbacks both in schoolroom education and to the students. How much will be saved by that?

I hope that this time he will spell it out in hard dollars and cents so that we can then see whether what he is saying is appropriate. I do not believe it is, but I ~!Ould like to see him hopefully on his feet this time to spell it out to us exactly how much was saved. I support the prayer of the petition. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for LaPoile followed by the hon. gentleman for St. John's West. 'MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, I was hoping.that the han. the Minister of Education, Sir, would table a copy of the Task Force report that the Premier has in front of him there reading it, not that it will do any good Sir, because the terms of reference were so narrow that I doubt very much if it will do anything to help the University students, the students who

July 4, 1978 Tape 5039 PK - 2 Mr. Neary: want to go into University in September. But I call upon the government, Sir, to table - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear~ MR. NEARY: - this report at an early date as possible, table it today. After all,the taxpayers paid for it, why should it not be tabled? Lay it on the Table of the House this very day so that ~!e can all have a peep at it instead of the Premier over there just scirnming through it~ Why do 1~e not all have an opportunity to read it, Sir? SOME HON. MEMBERS: , Oh, oh!

MR; NEARY: Mr~ Speaker, I support the prayer of the petition, Sir, presented by my hon. colleague, .and in so doing, Mr. Speaker, I would like to point out that one of the members on the governm~nt benches.t~e ·other •.: .. · ··--- - day mentioned to me that you fellows are over there, he said, presenting petitions, asking the government to spend a 11 kinds of money, and where do you think .the money is coming from? You are making foolish of yourselves,one of the members said, asking the government - here we are talking about austerity and cutbacks and you are asking the government to spend more money.

Hell,we are riot asking the government to spend more money, Sir, we are asking the government to rearrange its priorities and not put the boots - · SOME.HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! DR. KITCHEN: Right. MR. NEARY: - to students every time that they want to cutback. DR. KITCHEN MR:NEARY: That is right. Mr. Speaker, my hon .. colleague mentioned the two water bombers could probably go ~ long way in paying-the ripoff that was made by Field Aviation, I think he referred to ,in paying some of this . student aid. Well,what about Mr. Bob Cole's contract? .SOME HON; MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.

SPEAKER: Order, please! must point out to the hon. gentleman that although tci a certain extent Standing Orders on petitions do not have the·precision that one might hope for, they do preclude debate and that at times can be difficult to define. But do believe the hon. gentleman will probably agree with me that he is now straying into

July 4, 1978 Tape 5039 PK - 3 Mr. Soeaker: an area which is somewhat off the subject and is certainly appreaching debate. MR. NEARY: Thank you, Sir. Well, Sir, the point that I am making is that if you went over the Budget, the estimates, Mr.

Speaker, item by item, I am sure that you could find all kinds of examples of extravangance and waste, where. if you eliminated this there would be countervailing savings and there would be no problem at all,without the government spending one additional cent, without the taxpayers of this Province being asked to cough up one additional cent, you could find all kinds of .examples of extravangances and waste where you could get, if eliminated,you would get countervailing· savings that could more than offset the cost of the·st1:1dent aid.·.· Now, Sir, the Minister of Education and the Minister of Justice, the Minister of Finance and the Premier have a tendency to compare the s·tudent aid programme in this Province with the student aid programme in the other Atlantic Provinces, in .the Maritime Provinces.

And it is like comparing apples and oranges, Sir. And the hpn .. gentleman does not mention that over in Nova Scotia, for instance, Nova Scotia they have thirteen degree granting institutions and here in Newfoundland we only have one,·and everyone has to gravitate towards St. John's. --..... :_.

July 4, 1978 Tape 5040 EC - 1 ~!R'. NEARY: In Nova Scotia you can pick the university of your choice and you can commute back and forth daily, and there' is a big difference. And t.his petition that is being presented now is on behalf of students who live in the rural part of this Province. In the Maritimes they live closer to the university so they do not need to pay board and lodgings. All they need is to be able to - DR. KITCHEN: They can live home and walk to work. MR. NEARY: They can live home, that is right. They can walk to the university ~ractically: -.-AN RON.

MEMBER: (Inaudible) Cape Breton (inaudible) ..:_. Dalhousie. HR. NEARY: And not only that, Sir, but here in this Province the maximum that a student can borrow is $750. In .the other Maritime Provinces they can get their $1,000. AN RON. MEMBER: No, they cannot. MR. NEARY: Oh, yes they can, Sir. Only in Newfoundland, the maximum they can get is $750., So, Sir, as one of the briefs that I have in front of me indicated, the provincial government caught the university community by surprise when it announced sweeping changes in the funding for its 1978 - 1979 Budget.

The ~overnment has raised the minimum loan requirement for student aid to $700 from $450 despite recommendations to the contrar~ And I do hope, Sir, the Minister of Education will now participate in the support of this petition as he has already done with previous petitions and give us an inkling what is in that report or table it. The taxpayers paid for it so why should it not be tabled? Is it a secret document? Let us have a look at it and see what is in it, see if it will do any good for our faltering educational system in this Province. SOME HOM. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

July 4, 1978. Tape 5040 EC - 2 HR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for St. John's lvest. DR. KITCHEN: Mr. Speaker, I rise to support this petition which has been so ably presented by my colleague. And I wonder why the petitions are sti~l coming in.

It seems to me that the matter has been brought before the House now on I think four separate occasions and still the students say, 'We have a problem.' Normally you would expect a problem to be cured after so much support from both sides of the House, particularly when there is not really a problem, it is only a matter of a couple of million dollars that could be scraped up here or there. lvp.at ... .atnazes .l!le .~s t!J.at_ we are now getting petitions from those who are presently at Memorial University,or last year at Memorial University, and the ·real problem is worse than that, because the real problem occurs amongst those who have not jet gone or cannot afford to go at all who would not be available to sign such a petition.

So the problem, Mr. ·Speaker, ·is much, much worse than would be indicated from reading the petition and studying the names because of the people who are not on there who probably would very much like to be on there except that they might have dropped out some years ago fr~m school because they knew they could not afford to go to university. 1 was ·expec~ing, Mr. Speaker, some announcement over the weekend about this matter, that the Minister of Education would have solved the problem and met the needs of these students.

I was hoping, for example, that he would have taken our suggestion last week, made twice, that the minister would set up a c~mmittee perhaps of former Ministers of Education including the pres~nt Minister of Education and we would look at the money required and see where we might pare the Education budget, or where a few more bucks might be found. And I thought that was an

July 4, 1978 Tape 5040 EC - 3 DR. KITCHEN: eminently practical suggestion and one that he might announce over the weekend. I would like very much for the Minister of Education to speak now today to tell us~ he has had an opportunity to consider this serious suggestion that was made to alleviate this problem. We cannot always be debating against the government.

Sometimes we have to give them a few ideas as to what to do and we have given them a number of ideas in the past four or five days of supporting these petitions, \.. all kinds of positive, strong suggestions to help the government out, because I know that the minister is under great pressure and the Premier must be .'!n~ .. e_:_ g_reat _pr_essure: I thought we would have an·announcement from the Premier over the weekend, not in support of this petition, Mr. Speaker, but of his own resignation. But he did not for some reason or other resign.

But I would hope that he would get up now .and support this petition and set up a committee and get on with the job. HR. \~ .N. ROWE: DR. KITCHEN: NR. SPEAKER: Port-au Port. HR. HODDER: And then resign. And then resign, right. The hon. the member for Mr. Speaker, it gives me great pleasure to support this petition on behalf of 172 students representing the rural students at Memorial University. The university

July 4, 1978, Tape 5041, Page 1 -- apb MR. HODDER: is not for everyone, it is a place of higher learning and only those students who are equipped to attend university can do so. Now, I was a high school principalfor five years and I saw students who left high school and made up their minds what sort of a career they wanted. Then some decided to go to university, the others decided that they wanted to go into different trades courses and some decided that they would go to work immediately. Very often those decision are made, Mr.

Speaker, with finances in mind, both from the point of view of the parent and from the point of view of the student. ·Very often in areas such as the Gove£nmer1t House Leader comes from, perhaps where there is high unemployment and where students can get employment immediately, and areas such as where there are CNR dockyards and things like that, where students can come out of school and go to work, whether it be on a longiiner, whether it be on a large schooner, or whether it be working at any type of job, the feeling is there, or the urge is there to go out and get that quick money first.

So many, many students when they leave school they make their decision as to what they are going to do for very many reasons and one of them is financial.

Now, when you look at the various options that students have open to them it is the type of student who is equipped to go to university who has to take the hardest blow, who has to make the worst decision, who has to make the hardest decision, whose parents must realize that they have some money put away - I know there are members of this House, perhaps right now, who may have young children,who are starting right away - and a lot of people do this - to save money.

July 4, 1978, Tape 5041, Page 2 •- apb MR. HODDER: It is a sort of college student plan where you start to save money when your child is born, so much a month, to put your child through university. But only so many people can afford to do that. The people in the rural areas of this Province, the people who are on social services, the people whose parents are out of work, the people who are in the more depressed areas of the Province, these people cannot afford to take that money and put it aside for ten years for the students who want to go to university.

So that is happening is '"'C'" ••• _... - that the group of people_who will be really leading this Province tomorrow are looking to other things. I have seen students who applied to the university and were accepted, applied to vocation schools and were not. The reason why they were not accepted at the vocational schools was because they were overcrowded, because an awful lot of students realized that there are a lot of Canada Man- power seats in the vocational institutions and if they stay out for a year they can get on a Manpower programme and go into the trade schools.

There is a provincial programme where the Province pays so much for students who go· in on the provincial plan. There. are students who drop out of school and who can go back and be upgraded at a certain salary, so that when a student and a parent makes the decision- whether or not to. go. to university, there is a lot going against them. I think that this means that an awful lot of students in this Province are not getting to university who can.

Those who are a.ble and have the ability to attend university are not doing so and I predict, as I pointed out here when I supported another petition the other day, that it has already been shown in this Summer semester and in the semester before this, that the enrollments

July 4, 1978, Tape 5041, Page 3 -- apb MR. HODDER: are dropping off - when the government tried this before in 1973 the enrollernnts dropped off to such an extent that they had to change their minds on it- and I predict that enrollments will drop off again. I also predict that not only will enrollments drop off, but I think when you have this sort of thing happening that you find a lot of people losing the desire to go to university, it. does not become the in thing. Basically what is happening is that the Province is losing the people whom we need.

We are siphoning off into other jobs and other professions people we t-!Ould prefer to be in univeristy taking advantage of a university training. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The han. member for Trinity - Bay de Verde.

July 4, 1978 Tape No. 5042 N}1 - 1 ~{R. F. ROWE: Hr. Speaker, I would like to rise in support of the petition presented by the member for Conception Bay South on behalf of 172 students from Hemorial University, Sir, I would like to approach it in a different way to try and emphasize in supporting this petition the fact that the students of Memorial University are not always there with their hands out looking for something in the way of bursaries or scholarships or increased student aid •. They are doing this in this particular case out of complete necessity.

But I would like in supporting this petition, Sir, to point out the contribution that students and other youth of this Province are making through our society in this Province today. --,.._:__. Sir, over the weekend I had the honour and the pleasure to attend a meeting of the Newfoundland and Labrador Coalition of Community Youth Councils. There are about fourteen of these councils throu~hout the Province, Sir, and there is a centre at Memorial University here in St. John's and one at the Basilica in St.

John's,and I believe there is a centre in Gander, one in Hampton, one at Main Point, I think one in one or two other places.. But, Sir, I '~as tremendously impressed, Sir, with the enthusiasm of these students outside and within the .university, who,Sir, are committed to improving the quality of life in their own community by trying to get involved with adults in the decision makin~ orocess in their own communities, Sir, terribly, terribly impressed.

They were full of enthusiasm and they were workin2, Sir, very hard not .1u"t to get money to carry out their plans and build their centres but to improve the quality of life in their particular centres, Sir, one of the thin~s that most impressed me, there were a couple of thinPs, one was the fact that they have a tremendous concern over the unemployment problem in this Province and .I related, Sir, there that we· have eighty per cent of our population approximately under thirty-four years of age, and approximately fifty-seven per cent

July 7, 1978 Tape ~o. 5042 NM -2 ~·!It. F. ROWE : are under twenty-four years of age, and Sir, of the working force of that group,· over fiftv per cent are unemployed. So, Sir, the people of the university and these vouth are tuned in to the problems of this Province and are trying to do something about it, tryin2 to do something about it.

And, Sir,. when you look at the fact that there are thirty-one per cent of our population, thirty-one per cent of our population is less than fourteen years of age, these students have foreseen the tremendous unemployment problem that we are likely to have within the very near future. If we have over fifty per cent unemployment of the youth work force group, what is going to happen when these thirty-four per cent below the age of fourteen start hit.ting....the. marketplace or the work force? It is going to be an unemployment monster, Sir. And this Newfoundland and Labrador Coalition of Youth Councils.

Community Youth Councils, working side by side with the university students, are tackling these kinds of problems, Sir. They have a sincere and basic understanding of many of the problems facing not only this Province but of the Nation as a whole. And, Sir, one of their major concerns is the Yery future of Canada as a nation and the unity of Canada.

And a representative of the Secretary of State's Office announced at that particular meeting on Saturday night that this coalition has received $5,000 for the purpose of holding a conference on Canadian unity, which I understand is going to be hosted by the Conception Bay South Community Youth Council, but of course there will be representatives from all over Newfoundland and hopefully from Labrador.

So, Sir, this is the kind of thing that students at the university are involved with, not just the sort of thing we hear here today ~here they are coming in passing petitions to members of the House of Assembly, p·robably giving the appearance that they are just looking for handouts. That is not the case, Sir. These students are desperately in need of additional finances and help to get through university, because they are going broke and heavily in debt. -­... :_-

July 7, 1978 Tape ~o, 5042 NH- 3 NR. F. ROWE: But I thought, Sir, I would avail of this opportunity co point out that the students at the universi~y are not just concerned for their own individual or collective wellbeing in a financial way.

They are willing and able and capable of making a very significant and positive contribution co the various communities,throughout Newfoundland, Sir, and these students at the university represent practically every community, certainly every geographical locati~n in this Province, and I think these deserve, Sir, not a break, just fair treatment in this whole business of what has been brought in with respect to the petitions over the last few days and I hope the minister, since he received the Task Force Report today will see fit to tabltf"·it-stl that··· ·.· we, on both sides of the House, and as citizens, will have an opportunity since

July 4, 1978 Tape 5043 PK - 1 Mr. F. Rowe: it is the taxpayers' money to pay for it. And I hope, Sir, that by Friday the Premier ~Jill make his .promised announcements. Sir, I give this petition my whole-hearted support. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! ·soME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: MR. SIMMONS: Well done! Well put! The hon. the member for Burgee-Bay d'Espoir. Mr.

Speaker, I would too want to add my support to that given by the members who have spoken so far, all from this side of the House,I believe,so far, and I would hope now that the Premier having read the Task Force report should rise in his place or ~till rise and give his support. It is a sad day, Mr. Speaker •• -:-, __ _ MR: NEARY: Any pictures in the Task Force report?

MR; SIMMONS: - a series of sad days, indeed, ~tith these petitions coming in so deserving of the support of every member of the House that the only people who are supporting are those on this side and the Minister on occasion has supported rather selectively certain aspects of the petition, or at least he says he has. Now the Premier has had an ·opportunity to read the Task Force report, I suppose, he has been vetting it the last few minutes to make sure there is nothing in it like a call for the minister's res i gna ti on. We are soon going to need a form letter for resignations, Mr.

Speaker, there are. so many ministers over there about to resign, the Premier will soon need a form for that alone. I wonder does the Task Force call for the minister's resignation? If so that would be a sad call because he cannot take all of the blame for this mess; he can take a fair amount of it, but not certainly all of it. Mr. Speaker, the real reason the Task Force report has become a fairly closely guarded secret today is the information that have about the·report, namely, that it recommends that.there be a freeze.

July 4, 1978 Tape 5043 PK - 2 MR. SIMMONS: It recommends that the government go back to whe.re it was before the last .Budget, restore the tuition provisions, the. student loan provisions, restore them as they were, restore the teacher allocations· as they were; this you wi 11 find, Mr. Speaker, is what the interim report will say and why the minister is sitting on it, why he is so glib about the whole issue. They cannot afford, Mr. Speaker, to release this report now because it will cut the legs under the government.

It will show that the government was wrong in its budgetary moves effecting education in the first place. MR. NEARY: The Minister of Finance (inaudible). MR. SIMMONS: It will show that what we have recommended, Mr. Speaker, to the minister and to the government i~ •. e~,aE~ly_ wha~ t~~ Ta~k. Force is saying~as limited · SOME HON. ME~1BERS: ~~R. S Il-1t10NS: .

Oh, oh! in its scope and its background as it is, nevertheless it has come to the only conclusion that anybody can come to who looks sensibly at this problem; the sensible thing to do is what we have been advocating,and what I understand now the Task Force is advocating the government in its interim report,that they put a freeze, a pre~Budget freeze mind you, a pre-Budget freeze on this whole business of tuition provision, student loan provision, teacher allocation provision; and the other items that were a,'ff'ected by the vicious budgetary cutbacks. by the Minister of Finance who has proven so often, Mr.

Speaker, that he is much better as a Government House Leader than he is as a Minister of Finance. And how we needed him the other night! S0t1E HON. MEMBERS: MR. SIMMONS: MR; W. ROWE: MR. SIMMONS: MR. \~. RO\-IE: MR. SIMMONS: Clh, oh! How we needed him on Thursday night! Only. there is not much to compare him with. That is why, Mr. Speaker, - · Peckford. That is ~1hy, Mr. Speaker, the Task Force reoort is being sat on today by the Premie~being vetted so closely by the Premier: -.--

July 4, 1978 Tape 5043 PK - 3 MR. SIMMONS: It recommends, Mr. Speaker; it recommends that we not go toying around with the education of secondary students or elementary students or post-secondary students until we know what we are doing. I support the petition from the 170 or so students, t~r.

Speaker, as we have supported the petition from the 4,000 and more students, and as I believe the Task Force,in the spirit of its interim report,has supported· them today.· Now let the minister get up and tell us what is in that Task Force, or let them give us the Task Force report~ The taxpayers paid for it,the least we can do is have a look at it now, Mr. Speaker. The Minister of Health is in a nice mood today. MR. ~L ROWE: Watch it now, he may come over. ·~ .... ·. -.. - MR. NEARY: They got the chicken pox out in his· district, out in Gander, from the spruce budworm spray. MR.

SIMMONS: ~Jell I will sit down , Mr. Sneaker, hecause I think the Minister of Health wants to get up and' make a few sober comments on the subject of the petition, as I am sure we would like to hear from him. I support the petition, Mr. Speaker, and I hooe the Minister of Health will do likewise in his usual dignified manner, and the member for Bonavista South (.Mr. Morgan), Mr. Speaker, I would not mind if he supported the petition. AN HON. MEMBER: Is this in order? MR. S IM~10NS: Yes, this is very much in order, Mr.

Speaker1 very much in order that we drum up all the support we can from the more sober members of the House, all the support 1~e can, Mr. ~pea ker, for this important petition. I support it, and I hope members from the government side will do likewise. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear~. --

July 4, 1978 Tape 5044 EC - 1 :!R. SPEAKER: The bon. the member for Burin -Placentia West. MR. CANNING: llr. Speaker, if there is any member on the opposite side of the House who wants to support this p·etition I will gladly yield to him. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! HR. CANNING: I was hoping that the Minister of Finance would get up and make a plea on behalf of the youth of the Burin Peninsula. HR. NEARY: Hear, hear! HR.

CANNING: One time he was prepared to - :·~··.: ~t was after the plans were made for the paving of the Burin Peninsula; of course, he knew i~,. w.<i~. c~min~, He told the people of the Burin Peninsula that he was prepared to crawl up the road if they would give him any pavement, so I would like to see him standing now and supporting the youth of that area and the youth of Newfoundland. Mr.

Speaker, we can' put up with the lack of paving, we can put up for another while with the lack of water and sewer, we can put up with hundreds and thousands of promises made year after year to people, but when it comes to education of the youth, anybody, any Newfoundlander who would not stand up and defend it, wel~ I do not understand him, because this is something that you cannot wait for. If we have ~,000 or 5,000 or 6,000 of our young people today who want to go to the University in September, next September may be too late. AN HON. HE11BER: Right. MR. CANNING: It is a year gone.

The profession that they aimed at, their choice in their path of life can be stopped this year in September, becaus~ what is going to happen to them is that they are going to be out among the unemployed of ~he Province. AN HON. HEHBER: They are that now. HR. CANNING: And they are going to want to eat 'nd they are ~oing to want to have clothing, so chances are

July 4, 1978 Tape 5044 EC - 2 :·!R. CA~NING: they will have to go off in other fields and,discouraged as they will be, they probably will not return after another year or so when this government is finished and a Liberal Government takes over to pursue our policy the way we pursued it for the last twenty-three years. Today with I think 4,000 names now on this particular issue - there must have been 12,000 or 15,000 people who cried out over the teacher-pupil ratio - very few, if any, got up on the government side to support it. I do not believe anybody got up to support those students so far.

So now it may be the last pe.~_it .. i_'?_n !or_ ~Pi.!l se~s~on, but we will see again if the minister is going to get up, or the Finance Minister or some of the ministers. And,like I said the other day, I would like to see some of the members over there who took advantage of the day when they did not need so much to have a loan approved, those who took it. Now, Mr.

Speaker, knowing what difficulty I had to get through school,and knowing how wrong we were without the opportunity we only had after Confederation after the Liberal Government took over, I for one support this petition and beg the government to consider it. MR. NEARY: Hear, hear! Well spoken. AN RON. MEMBER: Well.done. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Fogo. CAPT. WINSOR: Mr. Speaker, I rise to support this petition, one of many, I may say, involving at least 4,000 students.

I think it is a very sad day in the life of this Province when we see day after day university students pleading with this government to change their policy on Education in order that they may have the opportunity to go to university and get an education whereby they can go out in the world and take their place as they should and as they ought. What surprised me, Mr. Speaker, is that only members -~ .... _.

July 4, 1978 Tape 5044 EC - 3 CAPT. lo/INSOR: on this side of the House have spoken on this petition. Now as I look around I cannot see any member. on this side of the House with ions or daughters attending the University. They must be all very young or all very old, because I do not know if there is a member on this side of the House at present - AN HON. MEMBER: 'Graham Flight'. CAPT. WINSOR: Yes, but unfortunately he is not here to speak. If he were here I am sure he would. •.:-· .·.-- •

July 4, 1978 Tape 5045 DI.J - 1 C.\PTAIN E. IHNSOR: Ho11ev~r, t:r ~ Speaker, I am sure there are me1:1bers on that side of the House "ho have sons or daughters attending the university. :{ow, Hr. Speaker, I am -very pleased to have been associated with a government 1~ho saw the need of an increaser! and a developed brain and increasing the educational opportunities in ti1is Province. h1e all,those of us who had the opportunity to have served in the former administration, satJ what that administration did to attract the students to the university so much so that at one point the government paid their tuition fee.

And what have we seen since this administration has taken over? He have seen those opportunities dit:linishing every day. It is a sad, sac day, :rr. Speaker, 11hen we seecuniversity students - :IR. S. NEARY: Hard, hard til!les·:· -- -.-..:_. CAPT AI:! ~HNSOR: That is right! It is like the old saying, "Tory times are hard times" but there are a great ;aany in this Province today ••ho pzrayed and prayed without ceasing that those times would not return. But, !·lr. Speaker, they are returning. 1\:l I!Ol:l. HEHBER: Temporarily .. · C.>\.PTAIN IHNSOR: And, well we hope it is only temporarily. But, 1·lr.

Speaker, I can recall the days lvhen,of course, you had to be t::.e son of a very well-to-do person in your community, or the son of a doctor or a merchant to be able to afford to attend university. That changed with the coming of Confederation and after Confederation, of course. And 1,;e in the administration at that time struggled very hard to make sure that every individual who wanted to promote their education. would have the opportunity to do so, and they d~d.But, Hr.

Speaker, in speaking on the Throne Speech I said then one of two things had to happen in that university with the government's present policy, and that one was that the tuition fee would be increased where students IJOuld not be .able to afford to attend and the other would be the enrollment would be decreased; whichever:way it occurred it would affect the students.! think, :!r. Speaker, it is not a disgrace, but it will be· a disgrace held up by the students today who have attended this House of Assembly and visited the gallery with the backing of

July 4, l978 Tape 5045 D\-! - 2 CAPTAIN h'INSOR: t~ousancs and thousands of then behind them 1it •Jill be a disgrace and someone ~Jill have to anst·:er to those young students because they are the men and women of ·tomorrow, they are the men and wonen that we are going to have to put our trust in 1 and they are· the ::.en and •-:ot:~en tvho <Iill be standing whe·l!e t;e are standing today and I hope, :·1r. Speaker,that they will have a different attitude towards of the promotion of education noreso than the present administration. I take much pleasure in supporting·that petition, 1-!r.

S?zaker, and as one said more , in sorrm·! than in shame. l·1R. s. i·lEARY: That is right. You will neve.r forget it. !:1R. SPEAKER Oral questions·;·· .·. - ... --. ..... :_. The hon. the Leader of the Opposition 1·ffi. HICKHAN: 1-ir. Speaker. HR. SPEAKER I am sorry. HR. SINl10NS: If you have a question, go ahead. The minister has a question, I believe. NR. NEARY: Stop the clock, Sir. Stop the clock. :-!R. lUC!GlAN: Hr. Speaker, I have been on my feet ever since, Your Honour, said "~lot ice of Motion". SO:·IE HON. HB!BERS: Oh, oh! ltR. SPEAKER:.

Do we have leave to revert? ~-ffi.. ~WLAil: No, we .vent through that the other day. ;.[R. HICKHAN: 1-/hat for? SO:-IE HON. ~!EiffiERS: No. Nl'.. !UCKJ-!AN:. Do I have leave or not? ~-iR. NEARY: Yes. Yes. l·!R. SPEAKER: Leave to revert to Notices of Hotion? Sm!E HON. :·IEHBERS: Hhat is it? :-IR. PECKFORD : He cannot tell you what it· is until you give him leave. :-£R.. P.IC!~{AN: Do I have leave? :·IR. :lEARY: Yes, boy! Yes! SOl-IE HON. HE!'!lERS: Yes.

July 4, 19i8 Tape 5045 Dlv - 3 :·!R. HICl~!A:!: :<ow that I have the unanimous consent ! the enthusiastic consent of hon. gentl~men opposite, :·!r. Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce the following resolution, "I.Jhereas it appears desireable that an independent inquiry be made into the salaries and expense allowances of ffiembers of the House of Assembly in their capacity as members.and miniters,oe it therefore resolved that this hon. House of Assembly request the Lieutenant-Governor in Council to appoint a commission under the Public Enquiries Act consisting of three persons resident in the Province of Newfoundland ·to inquire into the following matters (

a) the --,., ... _.

July f+,H7S Tape :•io. .5046 Ml-1 of the present levels of salary and expense allowances for members of the House of Assembly in their capacities as members and ministers;(b)the development of levels of salary and expense allowances consistent with the changing role of members of the House of Assembly , and (

c) whether an automatic formula·ought to be instituted for the salary and ,if so , the nature of such formula and that the Lieutenant Governor-in- Council be requested to include in the terms of reference of the commission a requirement that the commission make an interim report together with recommendations on the matters referred to it on or before the 31st day of October, A.D. 197€." NR.i·nJRPHY: Ninteen-seventy - tJhat? NR .HI CKHAN: · October. --·~· ORAL QUESTIONS HR. SPEAKER: Hon. Leader of the Opposition. NR.

W.ROWE: Sir, I have a question for the hnn. the Premier and it has to do with the legislation regarding Regional Govt\rnment in the Province, Hr. .Speaker. As usual with this administration,the people of the Province are confused as to the government's stand on what they propose to do with Regional Government legislation.

We have heard the minister himself say that is it, over his dead body no further legislation, he is going to resign, he is not going to seek any further leg-islation on Regional Government come in; yet we see t:le Premier giving the distinct impression if not saying directly that come the end of November the present bill is going.to be debated again or new legislature is going to be introduced or some kind of legislation regarding Regional Government is going to be brought into the House.

Would the Premier, Sir, kindly inform the House as to what is the government's policy and position on legislation regarding Regional Governoent? HR. SPKAKER: The hon. Premier. ?J.i.EHIER :-IOORES: Mr. Speaker, from the very beginning it was this government's intention to bring in Regional Goverruuent for the Northeast Avalon area and 1 ~or that matter:hopefully in other areas of the Province as Hell where the people want it and tJhere it can be of :Oenefit to them.

July 4,19i8 Tape i·io. 5046 AH-2 PREHIER HOORES: I: is somethi••g that I discus.;ed very recently tdtn the mayor of Corner~Broc.k,for instancc,who has some thoughts in this direction as have other areas of the Province.

Regarding the Northeast Avalon and :lill 50 ,t~at is as it was stated by the Hinister of Hunicipal Affairs and Housi~.Itwas the intention of the government even after a second reading of that bill to consult with districts in this area during the Sun:mer months and towards the Fall towards improving legislation because no legislation is perfect even when this House approves it unanimously as we have found out on many occasions many years past and recently.

The fact is, Sir, .that we do believe in Regional Government as long as it benefits the region and as that is the case we would intend to bring that legislation about as areas are ready for it. MR.W.ROWE: A supplementary - MR. SPEAKER: :·!R.W.ROWE: A supp1ementary. - Mr. Speaker, that answer. Let me ask the Premier this then. The hon. Hinister of i1unicipal Affairs indicated in this House during a couple of speeches he made, and outside the House as well, that his political career would stand or fall on Bill SO. Since that time he has said he is not going to have anything else to do with Bill SO.

It would be reintroduced or would be discussed in this House over his dead body,which may be welcome news to some people, yet the Pret:~ier says it is going to go ahead, we are going to continue with discussion on Bill 50. \-lill the Premier indicate whether he has received a resignation from the hon. i-linister:·of i·lunicipal Affairs ? Or a threat from him. ·NR. SPEAKER: T~e hon. Premier. PREMIER HOORES: No, Nr, Speaker, The situation isl as the ·hon.

Leader of the Opposition knew from past experience,that ministers and the first minister get togetl1er on various appointments from time to tiffie-as if the Leader of the Oppositon was the minister of the day .and I am sure the r.:tember for Conception Bay South (Hr.Nolan) would be his Hinister of Hunicipal Affairs and Housing. But that of course would upset the member --~

July 4,1970 Tape :lo. 5046 Ai:i-3 PRE;!IER i·:OORES: from St. John' \-lest (Dr.~tchen). llut, Sir, those are ::he problems that people have when they are not in government. ~lR. NEARY: Hr. Speaker. ~lR. SPEAKER:. The· hon. member for LaPoile• 1·lR. NEARY: Hr.

Speaker, my question is for the hon. the Premier in the absence of the ~dnister of Industrial Development whose jurisdiction this matter comes under,I believe. ~!y question has to do with Newfoundland Hardwoods. \olould the Premier indicate if there have been negotiations or are there negotiations going on for the sale of Newfoundland Hardwoods to private enterprise? HR. SPEAKER: The hon. Premier. PREHIER HOORES: l1r. Speaker, yes. I understand there have been with several outfits actually,not just any one. I think the sitvation is where two or three people are making bids for it.

The government has not made a final decision as yet on whether to accept them or not. MR. NEARY: A supplementary question. l1R, SPEAKER: A supplementary. HR. NEARY: Would the Premier indicate 1Sir,whether the negotiatic.ns . that are going on include the asphalt setup that they have down at Clarenville? Does it include the Newfoundland Hardwoods here at Donovan's overpass and also the operation in Clarenville? l·iR, SPEAKER: The hon, Premier.

July 4, 19i8 Tape ~o. 5047 NH - 1 PRENIER l100RES: Mr. Speaker, I am not sur2 of the exact detail but I do know that two of the applications for the operation do include the asphalt plant in Clarenville; I think there is one or possibly two others that are just the hardwood plants alone. MR. NEARY: A supplementary, Hr. Speaker. HR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, would the han. the Premier indicate if these proposals were invited or did they come voluntary from the two or three sources that the han. gentleman is referring to? MR. SPEAKER: The han·. Premier. PREMIER MOORES: I think, Mr.

Speaker, that there may have been offers. I am not sure on that particular question; ~ really.· am not. Sir, I would give the han. gentleman the information. I am not sure whether they were invited or whether they came from varying groups, But I will find out. HR. NEARY: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. HR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR.

NEARY: Would the han. gentlmean indicate to the House whether or not the government would welcome proposals from other parties other than the one or two that have already bid on the asphalt operation at Clarenville and the Newfoundland Hardwoods down here at Donovan's Overpass. MR. SPEAKER: The han. Premier. PREMIER HOORES: The answer is yes, Mr. Speaker.

Anyone who wants to become involved in developing business in'the Province, particularly in Crown corporations such as Hardwoods, which has not had a happy past, I am afraid to say, anyone who is interested in that sort of development and expanding or keeping going that business on a profit basis would certainly be very welcome by the government. HR. NEARY: A final supplementary, l1r. Speaker. HR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary. --.....:__.

Ju."le 4, 19i8 Tape No. 5047 }o'H- 2 ~!R. NEARY: l<ould the Premier indicate, Hr. Speaker, what will happen if the asphalt operation down at Clarenville is sold to one particular company? Hy understanding of the operation is now that the government provides more or less a service for all the contractors in the Proyince. What will happen to the operation that especially the small contractors will not have access to this plant, to this operation in Clarenville and they have been placed at the mercy of somebody who is their competitor? How is this going to work out?

Will it not cause chaos in the asphalt market in this Province? Will not it create a monopoly situation where one company will have a strangle hold, a monopoly on the asphalt distribution in this Province? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Premier. PREMIER MOORES: Nr. Speaker, that ~ill obviously be taken into consideration before any arrangement is made with anybody. The thing is that there is a monopoly situation on it right now, the monopoly being held .by the government. MR. NEARY: The government has it.

PREMIER HOORES: That is very convenient for government as far as protection,! suppose,of many small industries .is' concerned, but ~here it is very, very bad is that there is, not unlike I suppose~the Liquor Corporation, there·is an inbuilt orofit there. It is not necessarily efficiencv thAt is bein2 striven for. It'is not necessarily bein2 used for the best advantage to protect the small cnntractors and o~oole whn avail of that facilitv, yes,Sir, I think that is something that should be protected, but equally I think that it should be put on a l·!R. NEARY: How will it be protected?

PRE}:.'IER MOORES: - footin2 Whereby it is made as efficient as oossible and I am not sure by government operation that is the case. MR. NEARY: ThP. government made $1.25 million (inaudible).

July 4, l9i8 Tape No, 5047 NM- 3 :-!R. SPEAKER: The hon, member for Conception Bay South and Burgeo - Bay d'Espoir and St. John's Hest, :·tR. NO ~..,A;': Mr, Speaker, a question for the hon, the Premier. I understand that the Premier is planninsz an anouncement concerning sort of a reshuffle of senior civil servants in the next couple of days. Perhaps he could enlighten the House. I understand that there has already been appointed an ActinR Deputy Minister of Municipal Affairs, \-That other changes if any does the Premier have in mind? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Premier. PREHIER HOORES: It is all news to me, Mr.

Speaker. If the member for Conception Bay South (Mr. Nolan) would care·•to·'el:"ab6rate · · maybe I could find out more information as to what he is talking about. I have no idea what he is talking about, MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. HR. NOLAN: All right. Would the Premier then be good enough to inform us; one, has he announced officially- I believe the minister has on the new chairman for the Housing Corporation, Will he deny then that there is a new acting deputy who has been appointed and that there has been a circular circulated to that e~fect to every department? Is the Premier denying that, Mr. Speaker?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Premier. PREMIER MOORES: Mr. Speaker, I thought the bon. member said a major shuffle of senior civil servants. HR. NOI.Al.'l: That is correct. PREMIER MOORES: There is one person who is obviously acting deputy minister after the deputy minister is gone to another job. Hopefully that will be confirmed in a permanent capacity shortly but that is the only example that I know of that the hon. member refers to as a major shake up of senior civil servants, . HR. NOI.Al.'i: HR. SPEAKER: A supplementary," Hr. Speaker • A supplementary. --

July 4, 1978 Tape No. 5047 :~·1 - 4 ~!R. NOLlu'l: I am wondering if the Premier then in answer to a question we asked on two occasions and which the Premier has given his assurance that it would be done on at least two occasions in this House publicly, if he is now prepared to table the contract of Mr. Bob Cole in this House, which he has promised the hon. member on two separate occasions7 PREXIER MOOBES: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I did and I do apologize for not having it here.

I have it down on my desk, the pertinent points about it,and I will bring it up and make it available to the hon. gentleman as soon as I go down and get it. HR. NOLAN: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. NOLAN: Would the Premier also be good enough to table the contract of Mr. Bob Lewis in this House? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Premier. PREHIER HOORES: I have no idea what t~e contract is with !·1r. Lewis, Mr. Speaker, whatever department he works with.

July 4, 1978, Tape 5048, Page 1 -- apb PREMIER MOORES : I am sure it is, but equally, Sir, I think it is all very well for the hon. Opposition to say that they want contracts with every individual who has ever been associated with a political party. If that had been the case in the past, Sir, I would suggest that the paper work alone in the last twenty-three years, or the twenty-three years before we were elected would do nothing else but fill up the time of this House. MR. SIMMONS: Give us the contract, boy.

PREMIER MOORES : Yes, Sir, if there is a major job involved, and if there is a major function by the individual,·of course, it is in the public interest to make *C"'' ••• -- - • ••• sure that the people know exactly what the remuneration is for exceptional people and for exceptional jobs. I so not say that every person who is appointed or under contractural arrangement with the government, this sort of information should come up at this sort of time. I think it is the sort.of thing that should come up in the estimates; if the estimates had been debated properly this year it, undoubtedly would have. MR.

NOLAN: A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary, the original questioner. MR. NOLAN: A final.supplementary, just to make it clear. Is the Premier refusing to table Mr. Lewis' contract with the government or any agency of this government since he is paid; I assume,out. of public funds is the Premier refusing to do this? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER MOORES: No, Mr. Speaker, hesitant. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the member for Trinity - Bay de. Verde, a supplementary. MR. F.B.ROWE: Mr.

Speaker, the Premier has been apologizing now for some three or four weeks on not being --..... :_.

July 4, 1978, Tape 5048, Page 2 -- apb MR. F.B.ROWE: able to table the Chairman of the Special Action Committee's contract. Could the Premier, in case it slips his mind again, Sir, get his parliamentary assistant or somebody else to run down and get the contract and have the contract tabled sometime this afternoon or tonight, Sir? MR. W.N.ROWE: Oh, there he goes! MR. F.B".ROWE: Do I have an answer, Mr. Speaker? MR. SPEAKER: The hon.member for Burgee - Bay d'Espoir. MR. F.B;ROWE: He could be going off getting an •<·· ... -. ice cream for the Premier, Sir. MR. SIMMONS: It is not ice cream the Premier needs, Mr •.

Speaker. AN HON. MEMBER:· No, no. MR. W .N .ROWE: It has been a long time since the Premier ate an ice cream. PREMIER MOORES: That makes two of us, I would say. MR. SIMMONS: Yes, when the licking comes he will not be doing it, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, a question for the Premier. AN HON. MEMBER: He is not a sucky baby. MR. SIMMONS: I had some questions for the Minister of Manpower and the Minister of Industrial Development, both of whom are absent today. I think this is the third day the Minister of Manpower has been absent although he is the immediate environs of the House, or at least he was. MR.

NEARY: He was here a half hour ago. . MR. SIMMONS: He was just before the House opened, Mr: Speaker. The fiist question for the Premier,. ·Mr. Speaker, in the absence of these two, have these --....:__.

July 4, 1978, Tape 5048, Page 3 -- apb MR. SIMMONS: two ministers been instructed by their Premier not to attend the House during Question Period? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER MOORES: Mr. Speaker, to the Perry Mason of the House of Assembly I would like to reply that the answer is no. But also for the hon. member's benefit, Sir, I would like to advise him that Judge Mahoney was appointed to.conduct the enquiry and not himself. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. SIMMONS: The Premier thinks out loud, Mr. '"'"'"' .•. -- - Speaker, finally.

He would hope that he could have s1oughed it off on Mr. Justice Mahoney. The fact is there ar~ answers which the House deserves to know and the House is not getting those answers. But we shall keep probing, not only me but other menmers of this Opposition will keeping asking the questions until the answers come out. The Premier might not want to realize it, Mr. Speaker, but he is answerable to this House of Assembly when he is here. Now, Mr. Speaker, interestingly enough there was another Minister of Public works,! believe, who happens to be here at the moment and perhaps that minister, Mr.

Speaker, could tell us. The.Minister of Forestry and Agriculture, would he indicate to· the House, Mr. Speaker, if when he was in the Public Works portfolio he used a preferred list of contractors in giving out untendered work to various contractors? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Forestry and Agriculture. MR. MAYNARD: Mr. Speaker, I was minister of the department, I think, for a total period of two months altogether and no, I did not use any preferred lists of people for giving out contracts for Public Works. MR. SIMMONS: A supplementary. --,.....:_.

July 4, 1978, Tape 5048, Page 4 -- apb MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. SIMMONS: An interesting answer, a very interesting answer to .have into the record, Mr. Speaker. MR. W.N.ROWE: He was there two months. MR. SIMMONS: They were two very eventful months,you will find out, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, to the same minister a supplementary. Would he indicate for the record whether during his two months in Public Works or at any other time as a minister he was ever of.fered any payment· for delivery on promises to. get untendered government work for contractors? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister. "'<"'' . .. -- MR.

MAYNARD: No, Mr. Speaker, I was not •. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. S'IMMONS: The minister indicates - for the record, Mr. Speaker, would the minister indicate whether at any time he received - I say to the Premier the answers may be revealing, even to him. I have a couple for him as well, after. But to the minister concerned, Mr. Speaker, did he at any time receive any gifts? Did he accept, --

July 4, 1978 Tape 5049 EC - 1 ~!R. SH!MONS: Mr. Speaker, any gifts from any of the contractors who got untendered work from the government - and I can give him some names if he would like to react to these - the Walsh firm, the Noel firm, these two in particular, did he receive any gifts at any tice from these contractors who were representatives of these firms or principals of these firms? HR. LUNDRIGAN: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A point of order. MR. LUNDRIGAN: Mr. Speaker, I think this line of questioning is totally out of order, Your Honour. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please-~-- O~der, ·pleas~!.

MR. LUNDRIGAN: The member is asking has the ) minister received any gifts, has a member of this Legislature receive~ any gifts. Mr. Speaker, a member can get up here and carry on that line of questioning and impugn moti;es, affect the character of an individual, reflect on the character of a member of this Legislature on a daily basis just by questions: the question leaves. an impreision that there has been some form of activity on the part of an individual member of the House which is not ethical or not even legal, and I feel, Mr.

Speaker, if a member has any evidence at all that there has been any kind of activity on the part of a member which is unbecoming or w~ich is of a criminal nature that he should "lay his ~vidence on the table. And he might very well have evidence on the part of any one of the fifty-one members in the House, and if he does, of course, he has an immediate responsibility, not a responsibility two months from now or three months or five months, an immediate responsibility to give up this form of intimidation and lay his charge and lay his cards ) on the table. And on that basis, Mr.

Speaker, I strongly object to the line of questioning. For Your Honour's information, I have checked with quite a number of people

July 4, 1978 Tape 5049 EC - 2 l!R. LUNDRIGAN: the last few days in the parliamentary setting who have been involved in this kind of setting for quite some years and they feel it is unbecoming of a member of the Legislature to get up and impugn motives to suggest behaviour of a questionable nature without laying a charge or without being willing to move a question of privilege. :·lR. SIMHONS: To that silly point of order. HR. SPEAKER: . I will hear the hon. gentleman toward whom the point was made. HR. SHfMONS: Mr. Speaker, }irst of a~l, of course, the record will show that I have questioned no motives.

I have asked some questions and I have asked them for a co-uple of good reasons; one, because the matter of the acceptance of gifts by that minister, at least testimony to that effect, is a matter of public record, and I am giving the minister an opportunity, a clear opportunity to tell his side of the story, to say whether it is indeed true or not, and I believe_he ought to welcome that opportunity.

I say also to the member for Grand Falls that his advice, like most of the advice he gives, has been taken beforehand and that I have already told the police exactly what I know about this matter and other matters about which I will ask questions. And he,~ Mr. Speaker, .will n.ot intimidate me by alluding to ~nnamed sources. HR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! MR. SIMMONS: Tell us your sources. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I think the bon. gentleman has made made his submission on ·the particular point of o_rder.

Hon. members might recall that on a point of order brought up a few days ago I referred to Beauchesne, page 147, and among other citations there the statement that 'a question oral or written must not:' and then '

i) contain imputations.' Now at that time there is a

July 4, 1978 Tape 5049 EC - 3 c1R. SPEAKER: distinction, as my memory tells me, between when that point was brought up at that time and-now. When I gave that ruling_ with xespect to imputations on Friday, I believe it was, it was my statement at the time that in my opinion this stricture applied to an imputation against a member, an imputation of some wrongdoing against a member, and that it would be wrong for a question to have an imputation of wrongdoing against a member.

With that particular question at that time, I stated my opinion that that question contained an imputation of wrongdoing or whatever with respect to somebody who was not a member of the House of Assembly. The question was something _co the effect of whether somebody had offered something to a person who was a member of the House and I said, ' If there is an imputation there, the imputation is with respect to the offeror, a person not in the House.' However, a question "where there is an imputation toward, let us say, an offeree who is a member of the House, I think would come under that stricture.

So having said that, I do not think it is necessary to say any more. The hon. gentleman may wish on a supplementary to rephrase the question, because I think there is a distinction ·in those two questions where the imputation in this case is toward the offeree who is a member of the House

whereas in the other one toward an offeror who was not a member of the House. And the point is not the offeror or offeree, it is whether the person is a member of the House or not a member of the House. -­..... _.

July 4, 1978 ·rape 5050 PK - 1 MR. SIMMONS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary~ MR. SPEAKER: SIMMONS: A supplementary, the hon. the member for Burgeo-Bay d'Espoir. A supplementary and perhaps to rephrase the question to the minister concerned: Has the minister ever been offered any gifts by representatives of contracting firms doing untendered work for the Department of Public Works or by the principals of any of these firms? And ·the brunt of the question clearly is, has he ever been offered such gifts by these persons or companies·? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Forestry and Agriculture. MR.

MAYNARD: No, Mr. Speaker, I have not been offered any gifts. I have no idea what the hon. member is leading up to and what he mentions regarding being the matter of public record in a previous statement he made. But I would cert.ainlv like to see the public record that he is talking about. But there have been no gifts offered to me to award work at any time to any particular contractor. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary.

MR; SIMMONS: During the period the minister was Minister of Public Works did he at any time receive any instructions from the Premier that untendered work be given to any particular contracting firms? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Forestry and Agriculture. MR. MAYNARD: Absolutely not, Mr. Speaker, MR. SIMMONS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. That.is good to have in the record as well. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for St. John's West.! had indicated I will recognize next. OR. kiTCHEN: Mr.

Speaker, my question is directed to the Premier and it concerns a question which we asked in the House some time ago and that the Premier was going to follow up on, and let us know. He indicated today that the House would in all probability meet this Fall to disucss;amongst other things, regional government. And I am

July 4, 1978 Tape 5050 PK ~ 2 Dr. Kitchen: wondering if he has had an opportunity to look into the matter .of having the Fall session of the House held in Labrador, and if so, what progress has been made in these deliberations with respect to having the House meet in Labrador? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Premier. PREMIER MOORES: Not a great de a 1, Mr. Speaker, \o!hen I was in Corner Brook last week the people there havin~ heard this were interested in also having a session there. The logistic~ and the set up for such a meeting is so~ething that we will take a look at.

I would suggest it is going to be very difficult for any prolonged period of time. It is certainly not somethino we are opposed to, but it is something that is not going to be easy, Sir. DR. KITCHEN: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR: SPEAKER: A supplementary9 the original questioner.

DR: KITCHEN: I wonder if the Premier would make a dis.tinction between having it in Corner Brook and having it in Labrador, ~!here the political climate is so much more different, where the separatist tendancies within Labrador are much greater than they are within Corner Brook,even though I know that Corner Brook does not particularly care for the city either. But I am just wondering if he would put Labrador in a different category from having it in another place on the Island? MR. 'SPEAKER: The han. the Premier. PREMIER MOORES: I certainly think Labrador would be the first priority, Sir.

I would like to hear from the han. member which part of Labrador he particularly would like to see it in~· MR. STRACHAN: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the han. the member for Eagle River. MR: . STRACHAN: Mr. Speaker, dealing with the same question of arranging visits to parts of the Province, could the Premier tell me ' . ~1hether there was any arrangement at any time ,or if not, why not;, for the Queen during her visit here to only visit St.

John's and Corner Brook, why the Queen was not asked at that time to also visit Labrador or to pay a visit and drop Corner Brook, for instance, possiblY? --.......:._.

July 4, 1978 Tape 5050 PK - 3 MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER MOORES: Mr. Speaker, this has actually very little to do with the Provincial Government. but the question is a good one because we asked the same question. It was certainly my wish that the Queen visit Labrador in this particular trip. The fact was she had two days in the Province .in total of which one she wanted to come to where her representative was. and to the Capital City,St. John's, and one being left for wherever.

Now in Labrador to have one day with the time to travel and with the ot'-vious number of stO[)S.- it just could not be one stop - I only wish there was a longer period of time. and I only wish that it would have been possible for her to visit there. I would have thought, Sir, that that was absolutely some!hi~ . .9- ~ha_t we _wan_ted but because of time restraints we could not arrange. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Port au Port followed by the hon. the member for LaPoile. MR: HODDER: Mr. Speaker, a question for the Premier.

In light of the fact that the Minister of Forestry and Agriculture when he was in Stephenville two or three weeks ago said that there would be ·an announcement on Labrador Linerboard Limited by the end of June or early July, and also the fact that several Cabinet ministers have been making optimistic statements, would the Premier now tell us how the negotiations are going, with whom they are negotiating and generally whether we are making any progress or not? -­,.,._._.

July 4, 197!3 Tape 5051 D\.f - 1 HR. SPEAKER: The hon. Premier. PRElHER :!OORES : Hr. Speaker,I think it is fair to say negotiations are going well.I certainly am not prepared to say who they are ongoing with.I think that would be very wrong at this point in time. I think it is too early to say when there will be a definitive announcement one way or the other,but negotiations have been going on,they have been proceeding well with several companies. HR. HODDER: A supplementary, Hr. Speaker. HR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. HR. HODDER: Would the Premier be able to assure the people of Bay St.

George that there is a fu~re~her~.I.say·this .. because already some councillors have made statements, you know, have asked the government publicly to either announce that the mill is going to re-open or not~because in my checking around the district of Port-au Port .and Stephenville some thirty to forty people are moving ·out at the present time and the place is full of rumours as to what is happening. Would the Premier give us some assurance that the mill be opening and that people should stay on there? }lR. SPEAKER: The hon. Premier. PRENIER MOORES: I wish I could, Mr. Speaker; I cannot and.

I do not believe in making .announcements unless they can be confirmed. I think it would be,very wrong at this point in time. The Straits of Belle Isle are dynamite! I · PRE!HER HOORES : Hr. Speaker, is· there any way to control that man at all? I do not think so. But the fact is, Sir, I do not think that announcements of that stature where people's lives.are at stake should be Qade until they can be confirmed.

As I say,we are optimistic that they. will be satisfactory to the area and to the prosperity of the area,but to make a definitive statement and encourage people one way or the other I think having said what we have said they have to make up their own minds and hopefully within a few months the air will be cleared. ---...:_.

july 4, 1978 Tape 5051 Dl·i - 2 :·:F;. J. iiODDER: A supple::~entary, Hr. Speaker. :-!R. SPEAKER: A supplementary. 2·!R. J. HODDER: Just one comment to the Premier-if . as he says he does not want to encourage people why are the members of his Cabinet making optimistic statements ev,erytime they go in Bay St. George1 }ffi.. S •. l:EARY: That is right. :-lR. SPEAKER: The bon. Premier. PREHIER HOORES: Hr. SpeAker 1 on that comment there is a lot to be optimistic about. HR. S. NEARY: rlR. SPEAKER: The hon. membe.r f.o.r. LaPoile. . .· ___ ... ___ . NR. S.

NEARY: I want to get back to this Newfoundland Hardweods and the asphalt plant down at Clarenville again for a moment. Would the ·hon. the Premier tell the House if a deal has yet been struck for the sale of the asphalt plant and Newfoundland Hardwoods? . ~IR. SPEAKER: ·The hon. Premier • PREMIER HOORES: Definitively, }!r. Speaker; not to my knowledge •. HR. S. NEARY: A supplementary, Hr. Speaker, liR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. NIL S.

NEARY: Would the han. gentleman indicate l<hat companies the government are negotiating with· for the tiale of this asphalt plant"which will give somebody a monopoly on asphalt and certain kinds of board and wood in this Provfnce? Hhat companies are the government dealing with? !•JR. SPEAKER: The han. Premier. PREHIER MOORES: Hell first of all, Hr. Speaker, I do not know the name of all the companies; I kno1; there are several. I do know that if I did know the names I would not,when negotiations are going on,have. them up for political debate in this House because that would crucify anyone with any go'od intent.

But as I said to the hon. memb.:r 'Defore lvhat 1-1e will only be too glad to do, Sir, is to

Jcly 4, 1978 Tape 5051 DH - 3 P~:l!ER CiOORES: tvelcome anybody lvith an interest in developing any enterprise that the government is presently operating. 1-:e would also welcome people to assistance for government to operate any other enterprise of a similar nature that could be to the benefit of the Province ... \nd that I have made very clear, that we would t·Jelcome any or all participants in that sort field. ~!R. S. ~EARY: A supplementary, Mr. Speakee. ~!R.

SPEAKER: & supplementary. :uc s, NEARY: Would the hen. gentleman indicate that the government is just dealing with one company or more than one cornt:ar.y? The Premier indicated that there tVas several companies involved. I would like for the Premier to confirm Whef11ei: tne negotiations are going on with one specific company or if they are going on with several companies and how these companies managed to get involved in the first place? Here they asked co give submissions .or how did the word get out that the asphalt operation now at Clarenville .. was up for grabs? MR. SPEAKER: The hen. Premier.

PRE·!IER ~!OORES: Hr. Speaker,first of all I do knmv there are several companies involved and a couple made proposals to the government. Primarily it t;as the RardtVoods plant, and it does not take much foresight or investigative knowledge to realize that the Hardwoods plant has not done well for quite some years.They had one or two years whe.re they came close to breaking even or made a small profit,but in fact they have not had a good track record.

We were very anxious, and I think anyone who \vas that close to the scene or knew the scene was aware that we were anxious 1 to get someone to take that particular operation over. Other people on separate occasions have shown an interest in the asphalt plant for the asphalt plant itself concept. HR. S. ~EARY: Why was it a secret up until now? PRJ:."lHER HOORES: Now we have had a couple of instances where people are also interested in the Hardwoods plant and the Asphalt plant but, Sir, it is a combination of two there is no great mystery to any of this. -­. .,.: __ .

July 4 19 iS Tape 5051 L)~·! - 4 ' HR. ::EA:?.Y: H~ty 'vas it kept so secret? ~-~. SPEAKER: The han. Leader of the Opposition. i!R. u.n. ROI~E: Hr.

Speaker a question for the Premier we heard today on the news that the Public Utilities Board has apparently approved a ·nearly 9 per cent average increase in the rates of electricity for the consumers of the Province as a result of an application by :-le\Jfoundland Light and Power Company Limited. ;·iould the Premier indicate what his administration intends to do~if anything,if nothing tell us,if anything tell us that as well~1•hat they intend to do if anything about this yet another increase in the electrical rates to the hard pressed consumers of Newfoundland and Labrador? •.c· .·.- ....

.- ,'·'·- ~. 1978 Tape No. 5052 NH - 1 :·!R. SPEAKER: The han. Premier. PREMIER ~!OORES: Hr. Speaker, the reason that the Public Utilities Board have the mandate,if you like~to hear the power increase proposals from Hydro or Newfoundland Light and Power or whoever the case may be, is a ve~ simple reason that they do not have any axe to grind, that they do look at it objectively, that they do,have a balance of what are proper charges and what are not.

Now as far as the government itself.is concerned, to have an independent body like that, whilst power increases are UJifortunate and whilst they are pretty tough on people who are involved in them, have to pay them, obviously it is also in the world we live in a fact of life thS.t there will be power incnases .·c·· Now as fa·r as the government is concerned, Sir, there are very few things we. can do,· The only thing we can do are of the sort like. removing the sales tax from electric heat, like recalling Hinds Lake to save this Province $4.5 million. This is the sort of thing we can do, Sir, and are doing.

SOME HON, MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. W. ROWE: Nothing in other words. ORDERS OF THE DAY: MR. HICKMA.."': Committee of Ways and Means. On motion that the House resolve itself into Committee of the Whole,.Mr. Speaker left the Chair. HR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! HR. HICKl:!Al'~: Hot ion 1, Bill No. 38. !1R. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, if nobody else wants· to speak on it, I think we pretty well, unless my han. friends want to speak on it, we pretty well clued up the debate on this bill the last session.

There is only one thing that I want to say about it, ~hat the Provincial Government put up the sales tax, the Federal Government reduced it by three cents and so the people of .this Province now are paying an. eight per cent sales tax thanks to the generosity of the Government of Canada, of the Liberal Government up in Ottawa. But for the generosity

~. 1978 Tape No, 5052 NN - 2 HR. NEARY: of the Government of Canada, Hr. Chairman, but for the generosity of Mr. Trudeau and his colleagues up in Ottawa, ·the people of this Province would now be paying eleven per cent sales tax, in actual fact, They are now paying eight per cent until October and then the agreement runs out and this is a companion bill for the one that we already put through, Mr. Chairman, on the income tax, where we amended the Income Tax Act so that the Provincial Government could get back the losses on the reduction in the sales tax.

And so, Sir, in view of the fact that the Government of Canada, Mr. Trudeau was not able to call a general election in the Spring •.c-·· -~ - ... MR. MURPHY: He is taking the money out of his own pocket,is he? MR. NEARY: I believe, Sir, the member for St. John's Centre (Mr. A, Murphy) should say a novena or two for Mr. Trudeau - HR. MURPHY: Right. t{R. NEARY: - to hope that he will be successful whenever he goes to the polls, whenever he goes to the polls again, Sir. Perhaps the hon. gentleman could say a novena that the Prime H:l!nister of Canada MR, S I~IMONS : Mr.

Chairman, for all us ordinary Protestants, what is a novena? MR. NEARY: I will ask the monk over there to tell. It IJouli:i take me too long to explain· it to the hon. gentleman but the gentleman, the member for St. John's Centre (Mr. Nurphy) is very familiar with that. I do not kno1J if he has got the robes yet or not. He•certainly has the collection plate. AN RON. MEl·iBER: MR. NEARY: (Inaudible). $1 a card.

July 4, 1978 Tape No. 5052 NH - 3 HR. ~EARY: !1r. Chairman, perhaps the hon. gentleman will have a bingo gaQe, if Hr. Trudeau - HR. HURPHY: I am goin2 into building supplies (inaudible), l1R. N'F.ARY: Yes, that would be a good idea you know, It would be an excellent idea. It would be an excellent idea. men you would get in all kinds of trouhle and then the Minister of Justice woulci i1aul· you into court and then you would be fined, the same as all the other people who break the lstw, except of course the privileged few, except the likes of Affiliated Marine Hetals.

They do not commit fraud, Sir- no fraud, no cheatin2 on their part\. - It is a mistake. We were withholding money because they might have made mistakes in submitting their invoices. --.. .. :_ ..

July 4,1975 Tape :;o. 5053 AH-1 :·!R. N:::ARY: In certain other quarters it is called fraud but when it is Affiliated ~!arine i·letals, the administration's buddy, it is not fraud, ~tis just mistakes. }!R.SHUiONS: They do not have to .cheat 1 the minister does it for them. l·i.R. NEARY: h'ho is the hon. gentleman trying to con?

Anyway, ilr.Chairman, gettiug back to the Retail Sales Bill Mr.Tru~!!:tu did not pull off the election '"hen i1e plan.\·1ed it, in the Spring, and so the thre:e cents reduction in the .sales Tax, I presume was meant to solicit - let ua call a spade a spade, Sir- to solicit a few votes I suppose with the people across Canada.And I would think that with a Fall election coming up,or maybe next Spring 1 that there is a stuong P.9.ss;i,Qj_lity th~t .t,his ~.hr~e -.-.. -.:__. cent agreement, three cent reduction on the part of the government of Canada, this generous gesture on the part of the government of Canada maybe extended for another six months.

I am hoping that it·will and perhaps the hen. gentleman can indicate whether negotiations have yet begun .Pretty soon you will see. the.

Minister of .Finance in.Ottawa, he will get aboard the DOT jet and he will start his cross eanada four, this is only July, he still has July, August, September, he still has three months, practically all July, August and September, they have three months now to make up their minds whether they are going to extand this privilege to all canadians,of t:1e government of Canada having to step into provincial jurisdictions- the first time ever it happened,! suppose,in the history of canada- where the government of canada stepped in the provincial.jurisdiction because the ";)rovinces were sacking it: to the ordinary people, ·to the consumers, were socking it to the taxpayers,especially in this Province where we have the highest Sales Tax in the '"hole of Canada.

Uncle Ottawa, which the hen. :·linister of Fisheries so strongly condemns those inside and outside of this House , every time the hen. gentleman opens his mouth·he has nothing but strong condemnation for the government.of Canada. It. is a wonder, Sir, that they would put up with us at all, and yet here they turn around after this government increasing the Sales fax by one percentage point, the government of Canada takes off three cents here in Newfoundland. Sir,it

July 4,19i3 Tape No. 5053 ~· ... n-2 : S. :>S.\i:Y: was a wonderful thing, ·.it was a godsend, a godsend to the hard pressed consumer and the hard pressed taxpayer in this Province. I would like to see the Sales Tax wiped out altogether myself but obviously, Sir, that is not going to happen for some time. But· at least Hr.

Trudeau and the government of Canada had the courage to reduce the Sales Tax in this Province.by three cants and that is part of what we are doing i~ this bill now, Bill No. 38; the provincial government is uping the Sales Tax, the federal government is reducing the Sales Tax • AN HON • HEl·!BER: (Inaudible) NR. NEARY: TI1e tning does not balance itself out because it would be much more revenue, it would be much more coming. back to the --people. And so, Sir, I hope, Mr. Chairman, that this little benefit, ·~· unexpected windfall _for the consumer, I hope, Sir, that it will continue after the first of October.

I have every hope that because we have not had an election, we have not had a federal general election that you will see an extension of this three cent reduction in the Sales Tax go on for about another six months and God only knows, Sir, the consumers in this Province could use that-• money. ;.rn.. SPEAKER: Hon. member for Terra llova. rffi..LUSH: Mr.Chairman,. I just want to say a few words on this bill if I could get a copy.of it. l1r. Chairman, there are two parts to this bill, one affecting the Retail Sales Tax. a:.id the other of tangible personal property.

I do not know how many bills would ~ave to go through the House of Assembly now affecting

July 4, 1978 Tape 5054 EC - 1 HR. LUSH: the cutback that we got from Ottawa. I think this is the second one, a bill that without the generosity of Ottawa we would not have, either that or a bill in another form, a bill imposing 11 per cent sales tax, but because of the generosity of the federal government, because of the kindness of Ottawa, because of the sensitivity of that government to the needs of the people of Canada, we here in Newfoundland see a reduction from what would have been 11 per cent now to 8 per cent.

And, Mr.Chairman,,that is certainly a great blessing to our people, because I do not know how our people can continue to make it as taxes are continually il!llo-~~~. _ Right ___ now __ we_ are the highest taxed people in Canada, but this little break from Ottawa is certainly a ray of light to our Newfoundland people. And along with the hon. the member for LaPoile, I certainly hope that this thing can stay with us much longer than the six months, because our people certainly need - AN HON. ~El-tBER: (Inaudible) have an election every year. MR. LUSH: That is right.

And this kind of tax, the sales tax, is a tax that hits the ordinary people of this Province. It is the kind of tax that hurts everybody, but it hurts the ordinary people of this Province more so than ~ther groups of people. And I certainly hope that this tax can stay at its present level for a long, long time. But, Mr. Speaker, within this bill there is an item that particularly affects my own district and ~t has to do with boats.

I think there is a regulation which says that a boat has to be over a 300 ton capacity to be exempted from taxes, and in my district there are a lot of boats, ferries -the ferry from Burnside to St. Brendan's is .not a 300 ton boat and thus is not exempt from the sales tax. And, ~r.chairman, that boat certainly --, __ .

Ju:y 4, 1978 Tape 5054 EC - 2 ~!R. LUSH: needs to be replaced now, but for the private operators to buy a 300 ton boat is a costly venture and since they do not fall because they are under 300 tons, the kind of boat necessary for that run, it is a tremendous burden on the owners to buy a new ferry. And I would hope that the provincial government would see it necessary to cut back the tonnage whereby people are exempt from the sales tax .• As I have said before, the ferry in St. Brendan's, and I expect the one in Bonavista North, certainly, which is smaller than the one on the St.

Brendan's run, to replace these ferries it is a heavy investment on the part o.,f .the owners.·.· And I would .hope that the government would·see fit to cut back on that tonnage so that bo~ts of this kind, the interprovincial ferries throughout the Province would be exempt from this sales tax. And I would expect that almost all of the ferries throughout the Province fall under 300 tons, and therefore, they are. not exempt from the sales tax• I would venture to say that all the ferries in the Province excepting the Bell Island one, that is probably the only one that can be exempted under this regulation.

So I would hope, Mr.Chairman, that the government would change this so that other ferry operators throughout the Province and other boat operators would be able to be exempt from this tax, because as I have said before, most of the boats throughout the Province, the.smaller type boats, the smaller type freighters, fall under 300 tons and thus are discriminated against in a way. They fall from under the exemption that is offered in this bill, because the boat has to be over 300 tons.

And as I have said, this strikes my district particularly hard•because there are tour boats in the Terra Nova National Park and now with the Kipawo not operating there there are other private investors

July 4, 1978, Tape 5055, Page 1 -- apb MR. LUSH: . who would like to put on a tour boat there. As a matter of fact, I talked to two or three over the weekend and they talked about the tremend-ous '.tax that they have to pay when they buy a small boat for that purpose, to offer people tours around the Terra Nova National Park. Mr.Chairman, I would hope that the minister listening to this today would make th.is change that would make the tonnage less because there are not too many operators around Newfoundland who operate boats over 300 tons, that is a big boat.

Most of the freighters and most of the tour boats and~the ferries that operate in the Province are under that limit of. 300 tori§ and tbus· ha~e to· pay this tax, they are hit by that tax and again that is an example of the kind of business that this government promotes, the kind of business that they encourage. Mr.:hairman, a boat over 300 tons is a large boat.

It is a large boat ·and I would hope that the government would see fit to change this particular clause and make it a little less tonnage, more in line with the majority of boats, freighters and tourist boats and ferries that operate throughout the Province so that the small business people, the small investors, the small operators of boats would certainly get the benefit of this particular clause which as it exists now will not give them the benefit.

So I think if the government were concerned about the small operators, the operators of small boats, boats under 300 tons, that they would want to give them a break and thus provide us with greater services. Because I am sure that if a private operator were faced with the venture today of replacing a ferry. on a certain run, be it the St. Brendan's one or the Bonavista North one, that the tax that the person would have to pay on getting such a boat would be a detriment to that person going to buy a boat. When he realizes the large amount of tax that he is going to --..:_.

July 4, 1978, Tape 5055, Page 2 -- apb MR. LUSH: have to pay certainly he would think twice before he purchased a boat to put on a particular run. So this particular bill as it exists is certainly discouraging private operators of ferries and tourist boats and this sort of thing, in the ferry business, discouraging them from getting new ferries boats that would be more adequate to do the job, boats more up to date. This excessive tax that they are now faced with is discouraging them.

With tour boats throughout the Province, certainly goodness these people have so many regulations imposed upon them now, people who would want to go into that venture of put."t.ing o-n tc)ur boats that there are all sorts of restrictions as it is and when they realize that they have to pay this excessive sales tax Mr. Chairman, it is certainly discouraging people.

I would hope that the government in the interest of doing something for these ferry operators and for tour boats and other small freighters throughout the Province, that they would certainly reduce this tonnage so that most of the operators, so that most of the people attempting to get into that kind of trade, get into the ferry service, get into the touring boat business or whatever, and the small freighters around the Province, that we would remove this clause and reduce the tonnage so that these people could certainly get a break from the sales tax. So, Mr.Chairman, that is about all I want to say on the bill.

Because as I say, it does affect my own district with a ferry service there and also with tourist boats in the area. This is a problem that many private investors, people who would put on tour boats have brought to my atten~ion; the excessive tax that they have to pay, the excessive SSA in purchasing a boat. As I have said before, the only way they can qualify to be exempted under the act is to buy a boat that is over 300 -.-....:_.

July 4, 1978, Tape 5055, Page 3 -- apb MR. LUSH: tons and that is a large boat, Mr. Chairman, I certainly hope that the government in the interest of promoting the economy of this Province, that particular aspect of it, ferry services and tour boats and small freighters and the like, that the government certainly would look at this and realize that there is something wrong with the act and in the interest of similar areas that are served by ferries, that the government would look into this clause ana hopefully change it.

July 4, 1978 Tape 5056 PK - MR. CHAIRMAN: The hen. the Minister of Finance. MR. HICKMAN: If I may have but a quick ~1ord f:o respond to the hen. gentleman, and it will only take a minute, the hon. gentleman for Terra Nova (~1r. Lush) this question has been raised with me by another hon. gentleman opposite who represents an area served by a ferry. Number one, the question of ~1hether or not all boats should be exempt is not a matter for the Act, it can be done by regulation.

I have asked officials and others to assess for me so that I in·turn can advise government with respect to the question of whether the regulation shoul~ be amended, what the cost will be to the Province, because we are more generous. in this Province now than any of the other nine Canadian provinces as it relates to boats of various sizes or as •c· -·· -.... - generous,· For instance,even in the Maritime Provinces where they should have a history similar to ours of activities on the sea, they will only grant an exemption if the boat is operatinn extra-territorial not as between New Brunswick,say, and Grande ·~·lanan Island, but it would have to be between New Brunswick and the port of Portland,Maine, you know, beyond the twelve mile limit.

The same applies to Nova Scotia; In Newfoundland,as the hon. gentleman said,vessels of more than 300 tons gross are exempt as well as any other vessels that are in any way involved as. commerical. fishing vessels. I am sure the hen. gentleman would not want pleasure craft exempt from retail sales tax. But it is a fact that we are more, and I use the wordS, 'more liberal' with our exemptions than the other Canadian provinces ~lith respect to the.retail sales tax on boats. Some provinces give no exemption at all.

And others,for instance in British Columbia, vessels are more than 500 tons, and in the Maritimes they have to be operating . . extra-territorial. But it is a matter that is now, I want to assure this Committee, being studied. It does not require any amendment to the Act that is before the House, the bill that is before the House, it can be done by regulation. But it is a very valid point, and one that ~thilst I cannot commit government I would think there is some sympathy for because - as it relates to ferries, but again is how do you find a non-discriminatory formula that would bring in ferries- or

July 4, 1978 Tape 5056 PK - 2 Mr. Hickman: exempt ferries rather and make sure that pleasure craft and other boats -they are not in that category of either fishing commerically or transportation of persons for fares would be still paying a retail sales tax. But it is v1e ll under contra 1 . MR. CHAIRMAN: The han. the member for Fogo. CAPTAIN WINSOR: I would first like to elaborate a little on what the han. minister has said. He said Newfoundland is probably a little more generous than the Province of Nova Scotia, but Nova Scotia nor New Brunswick have as many inland water ferries as do Newfoundland.

Now what my han. colleague is saying there is that for an example there is going to be a replacement of a ferry between Valleyfield and Greenspond, and that ferry is notg<?..i.!19 t_o be )00_. ton, .. and because it is under 300 ton it is going to be subject to the sales tax. It is also ~oing to be subject to all of the repairs made to that vessel during the refitting of the vessel. And let us take an illustration, Mr. Chairman; for instance, that ferry is performing the same type of service as the ferry, for example, running between Portugal Cove and Bell Island.

Now let me take one vessel in particular and that is The Katherine, The Katherine which operates on the ferry service· bet~<teen Bell Island and Portugal Cove. That vessel is exempt from all taxes because she is over 300 tons. But the unfortunate man or company who has got to replace the Valleyfield-Greenspond ferry, and that vessel cou 1 d be 290 tons, is suhj ect to a 11 of the taxes. --.•.. :_~·

July 4, 1978 Tape 5057 EC - l CAPT. E. WINSOR: There is an injustice there, Mr. Chairman, and it is not only the Valleyfield to Greenspond ferry which I have had a lot of inquiries about, but St. Brendan's, as my colleague mentioned. Then you have the Change Island ferry and the Little Bay Islands ferry. They are all subject to this excess tax. And I think there is an inequality there and an injustice and a very grave disadvantage to the people who have to operate those. ferries.

And, Sir, surely when a vessel of that type is operating and carrying out the same services as the one which, for instance, operates between Fogo and Clarenville, but because one.}s ... J1.!'0QablY.. f.~ve o.r. ten gross tons over and above the one that is operating between Change Islands and the mainland, one is subject to the s·al·es tax and the other is not. There is nothing fair about that, Mr. Chairman. Therefore, I would urge the government to take a good hard look at that clause and do it by an amendment, amend the clause and' reduce the tonnage.

It is easy to come up with a formula, because no one expects all speed boats and yachts, etc., pleasure boats to be exempt, but certainly, the ferryboats and boats that are engaged in the coastal trade, there is another area.

For instance, a firm or an individual would buy a trader, a freighter -and I am sure the hon. the Minister of Finance is familiar enough with small coastal vessels - one is 295 tons and is subject to the sales tax, the other one is 350 tons, you know, more carrying capacity, more revenue earning, but yet because there is a few tons in the difference one is eligible for the tax and the other is not. It is very unfair and it leaves a very great disadvantage to promotion of the local trade, and God knows we need it, it is coming back slowly now.

And then there is the other matter which the hon. the member for Terra Nova (Mr. Lush)

July 4, 1978 Tape 5057 EC - 2 CAPT. E. lHNSOR: mentioned, the tourist boat. Today we hear that the Kipawo is no longer operating out of Terra Nova Park. It is too expensive~ a~d to replace the Kipawo, I do not think you are going to find anyone with the interest to do it. But smaller tour boats, yes, you will find many people who are interested in operating the tour boat. So, Mr. Speaker, I would sincerely hope that the minister would take a hard look at that, and he can take the tonnage down, but you cannot use the other provinces as an example because there is no comparison. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. MR.

CHAIRMAN: (Dr. Collins) The hon "·<·i:h~-meii:ber. ·f~~ --..,.:_._ Conception Bay South. MR. J. NOLAN: Mr. Chairman, I rise very briefly, and I mean very briefly, to speak to this bill. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. NOLAN: Mr. Speaker, may•I h~ve th~ protection of the Chair? MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. the member is being harassed by his own colleagues, I understand. HR. NOLAN: No, no! I did not say that, Mr. Chairman, do not jump the gun. The difficulty I have with this particular bill, of ~ourse, on the retail sales tax, as my bon. friend from LaPoile. (Mr.

Neary) mentioned, is the fact that we have had sort of a financial reprieve, thanks to the Ottawa federal government. Now we are looking for some kind of equal compassion, economic responsibility, from the Minister of Finance. I mean, there is no way I could stand up and support, because by merely supporting this in total I would perhaps be intetpre~ed as ~upporting the Budget Speech of the Minister of Finance, and I mean, that is political and economic suicide, because there is no way in God's world that anybody could support that sort

July 4, 1978 Tape 5057 EC - 3 :·!R. J. NOLAN: of backward oration .• Bu·t, Mr. Speaker, why, I mean, ~re we to,by approving this. attempt to approve the mismanagement of our friends opposite? Because the monies raised from sales tax go into the general revenue of the Province. The money from the general revenue of the Province goes into that expensive abortion known as Newfoundland Hydro and a number of other things. I mean, is this what the Minister of Finance expects us to approve, to indicate?

And the danger is by your silence you may possibly be guilty of, or be interpreted as being guilty of approving this sort of thing. Surely no one in his right~m~~~- w?uld ?~ this. -~ ... _. If the Minister of Finance is as successful in that portfolio as he has been as Minister of Justice then there ~re not ·too many failures in history that· can equal that.

July 4, l'J78 "i'ape 5058 !)\.;- 1 ~!R. l:OLAN: :~r. Speaker, we are in a situation not~ where we have listened to the adr.inistration opposite since 1971, and every time that a pipe breaks or anything in this Province it is alt~ays the Federal Government.

Anf. now we have a situation where t~e have a little tax relief in sales tax from the Federal Government and now we are calling upon this administration to cut out some of the squandering, extravagances.to take a good hard look at Hemorial University and those ~;ho are living high on the hog, flying hither and yon. \ve are asking them to look at Newfoundland Hydro and any number of other things and pass on the resultant savings to a very repressed, depressed 1economically depressed people who are looking for help, assistance and even understanding which the.,y fe-el that .they.- are_. not getting in this House of Assembly,particularly from the present administration who are in a position to do something about it. ~1e have seen since 19 71, we have hear, and even some Net~foundlanders, I am .afraid were sucked in,if I may use the expression ,of beating themselves on the chest by the purchase,say,of Churchill Falls.

The result is that we are now kicking out $25 million a year or more in interest. \Vhat is the good if the minister - what is the good of the oember for St. John's 1-lest (Dr. Kitchen) and I having the Concorde supersonic planes if we cannot afford to operate it ?But·. you have a situation here where even the Premier himself knows that the purchase of Churchill Falls t-·as one of the greatest blunders ever commit;ed by his administration. But the Hinister of Finance cannot simply paw this through as though he is down having drinks with the legal society.

It is not good enough.We want to know now what he is prepared to do to reduce the sales tax on a very, ~ery economic~lly oppressed people in this Province. l-Ie ~1ould also like to hear from the member for St. John's East (Hr. Marshall),who sounds off about the financial position of the Province from time to time and echoes nis soulful concern about it, as well he should. \./hat he does not address himself to is the massive squandering and waste that he supports by his silence. Al·l t:ON. HEHBER: Well said. -­~;.·

July .. , l'J iS Tape 5058 ;:H·1 - 2 ::::. CHAIR::.O\:i: (COLLI:iS) The ~on. rnenber for St. John's ;.:est. DR. I~ITCHE~·i: Nr. Chairman~a few general remarks about this.We are asked to approve here an increase in the sales tax from 10 per cent to 11 per cent.basically-this is basically what the bill is-and then we are 0oing to reduce it by 3 per cent because the Feder::U · Government were ldnd enough to allow us to do that ~to give some of their income tax in order for us add more to our income tax so that we could take it off the sales tax.

This is basically the thing. lo/e are asked to increase the sales tax by 1 per cent and thereby increase the yield by something like $25 million or $30 million •c· .·. - .. a year;this is acco.rding to the figures that are there. And the question as.,has been asked is 1o1hat are we going. to use this extra $25 million for,~.;hat do w.e plan to use it for?

We are not going to use it to buy shoes for welfare people.! have a case now we are going to go after where a person cannot even get a pair of shoes from the Department of lo/elfare to go and look for a job.-'le has to go bare-footed looking for work in this Province because the government are too hard hearted.

They are not going to use their $25 million or even $20 or even $10 to buy a pair of shoes for somebody, This is a hard hearted crowd They are not going to use some of this $25 million or $30 million extra tax that the people of Newfoundland are going to have to pay and Labrador are going to have to pay in order to increase student . grants and to decrease their loan. No,they. are too hard hear<.:ed about that,they do not care of things of that nature; Hr. Chairman, they are not going to reduce the cutbacks in education.'They are going to put up the hydro though;they are going to put that up and put it up again.

And when the question was asked in the House here today of the Premier v1as he prepared to do something about that he .sort of 1vashed his II hands, Pontius Pilate like and says~.o/ell,Yhat has this to do with me~ We have the board of Public Commissioners to do our dirty work and they tvill do :l.t and we can sit back and pretend that everything is fine." --.._-_.

Jul:: t., 1978 Tape 5058 Dl-i - 3 ~rR. :-n:,u:.y: That is exactly Hhat I forecasted was going_ to happen last year. (Inaudible) DR. ;(lTCHEN: .Yes. This is all it is, a whipping boy, another level, another buffer between the government a~d the people . The government is not prepared to answer directly to the people and ,, say,les, my son, He are going to put the taxes up because we want to pay the students a bit more money'. If they did that 1~e might accept that we have to ---:_.

July'+, 1\liS Tape No. 5059 J:·i - 1 DR. H. KITCili:::-1: balance it out t·ihere they are going to take it from this persor.·and give it to the other person and agree. Eut no. :.,rhat are they going to use some of that $25 ·million for? Well,a bit of it they are going to use for the silly telephone number that has been established, a few friendly contracts abo,lt helicopters and things of that nature. But are the people really gcing to benefit fron this extra $25 million? It is very questionable and we are going to have another bill here now before the House.

Bill 74 t,;as introduced here ti1e other day and somebody is going to want another ;;rhack of money to subsidize a facility that should never have been built. This is the sort of stuff that is going on around here. .l{e are being asked to cough up money, the poor people in this Province~ the-ten per cent to· eleven per cent,and this affects the ordinary worker in this Province and the ordinary person in this Province on a fixed income. This is . the ::ax that the spenders pay. The misers do not have to pay that.

A person who has a pocket full of money and makes more than he spends can stick the balance·in the bank and he is not taxed.- There is no tax on that. It is the spender who is paying, the poor son of a gun who has to. spend everything he makes, &erything is taxed. A person who saves a bit of money sticks it off in stocks and bonds and things like that, fair enough, no tax, he has it knocked. This is a very bad form of taxation, this retail sales tax. It is one of the more regressive types of taxation and it is one that any sensible government would not increase at this time.

There -is a very serious time facing this Province where very few people are working, where many people are on fixed incomes either from Departments .of Social Security or unemployment insurance, pensions of one kind or another, things that are very difficult to increase, fixed incomes. :·lore and more people of this Province are on fixed incomes and this is the tax that the government puts on. Had they levied an income tax, stuck on a few more points·on the income tax 1 then t!1e person who earns pay more and the person who earns a w:10le lot can be taxed a lot more, a super tax.

The-re are all sorts of things tne -- ....:_.:.•

July 4, 19ii3 Tape :;o, 5059 J~l - 2 iJR. i!. KIICru::;: sovernrnent could do to raise S25 Qillion and instead they decide they are going to add another percentage point to the sales tax. ·It is easy from the point of view of collection because the calculations are from ten to ·eleven. It is not much more difficult although the retail sales clerksfind a great difficulty in making the calculation. I am sure it causes them ~reat grief. Ten per cent was rather a round figure but now it went to eleven and of course it is going to be reduced to eight and the calculations are more difficult.

But basically what we are being asked to approve is another one per cent increase in the sales tax and it should not be overlooked that that is what it is, It is not a decrease in the sales tax to eight per cent although that is what hapi'~ned-oecause· "the··Fede-ra:l· Government threw in three per cent and the Provincial Government took away one per cent for themselves to spend on their little matacil and the other things that they like spending their money on, these anti-people 1•rogrammes that they have been developing in recent years, I suppose though one advantage of increasing the tax is .it wi.ll· encourage people· to save,but then who can save these days?

I would like to raise a particular point with respect to this bill and that is number

Section 26 to me should be looked at because I notice that the Federal Government very recently has amended some of it~ rules, has looked at the way it treats small businesses and has looked at the reporting practices that small business make to the government and have said to the small businesses, "Now look here,folks; what we are going to do for you is to reduce the bookkeeping. We are going to make it easier for a person to be in business by reducing the bookkeeping.

Instead of making those returns on a monthly basis that you have been making to us we are going to allow you to make them on a quarterly or· a semi-annual basis." I think that is a good idea to reduce the bookkeeping. One of the biggest problems that scall shopkeepers, corner stores. little people with one employee or just .the pers·on themself operating a small business, one of the biggest problems is trying to keep . track of all the government tJork that has to be done '.¥'ith respect to selling -­''--'--.

July 4, 1Yi3 T<1pe :>o. 5059 DK. rt. KITCHE~ : a few candi.es or whatever it is. It migt.t be a very good idea for ti1e government to look at what it can do to help small businesses by means of reducing the a~:~ount ·of paper work. l.fuen I look at

Section 26 (1) here of this bill· it says this, "Every seller shall l;eep and perserve books of account, records and documents showing his purchases and sales of. tangible personal property, all tangible personal property purchased or taken from stock for consumption or use by tile seller or supplied to employees of the seller where the tangible personal property is not sold at a retail sale." How anyone can figure out what that means I do not know but I suppose eventually --....:_.,_.

July 4, 1978 Tape 5060 IB-1 DR. KITCHEN: after you go to court a few times you will figure it out. Non-assessable sales of tangible personal property including sales for resale, retail sales that are exempted and sales in respect of which refund 'of the tax is payable. Assessable retail sales of tangible personal property. Amount of tax collected. Disposal of tax and remuneration retained by the seller and such other accounts, records and documents as may be designated by the Minister. And shall make returns to the minister in the prescribed manner and at the prescribed times. N