Newfoundland and Labrador Hansard — 18 April 2002 (44th General Assembly, 4th Session, Vol. XLIV No. 10)
2002-04-18
Newfoundland and Labrador — Debates (Hansard)
April 18, 2002 HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY
PROCEEDINGS Vol. XLIV No. 10
The House met at 1:30 p.m.
MR. SPEAKER (Snow): Order, please!
The hon. the Premier.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
PREMIER GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Mr. Speaker, I rise, by leave, agreed to with the Leader of the Opposition
and the Leader of the New Democratic Party.
MR. SPEAKER: Is it agreed?
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Agreed.
MR. SPEAKER: Agreed.
PREMIER GRIMES: Mr. Speaker, on behalf of the people of Newfoundland and
Labrador today, by leave, I rise and pay tribute to the four Canadian soldiers
serving with the Third Battalion, Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry
Battle Group, who were killed in a training accident near Kandahar, Afghanistan,
last evening.
At this time I would also like to send prayers on our behalf to the
individuals who sustained injuries in that most unfortunate accident. I express
deep sympathy to the families of all those affected in this terrible event.
Over the years, Mr. Speaker, thousands of Newfoundlanders and Labradorians,
and indeed many Canadians, have answered the call to serve their country and
seek peace around the world. However, one can never be prepared for the kind of
reality they faced in Afghanistan yesterday and last night.
Mr. Speaker, it is difficult to put into words the feelings of the people of
our Province and the country on this tragic occasion. We offer comfort to all
those in need at this time. The valiant efforts of our military do not go
unnoticed, especially in times like this.
For those who remain in Afghanistan today, we reaffirm our support for you in
your duty to protect justice in the world. Your ambition, talent, and will to
build a world of freedom and peace is admired by us all. Our thoughts, I am
sure, Mr. Speaker, are with every one of them.
I understand that the Leader of the Opposition and the Leader of the NDP
would also like to speak and then, on behalf of all of us, Mr. Speaker, I would
ask that maybe you would ask the members of this Legislature, and those gathered
in the galleries today, to stand in a minute of silence for those four who lost
their lives last evening protecting justice in the world on behalf of Canada in
this case.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.
MR. WILLIAMS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
I share the sentiments and the comments of the Premier. Myself and my family,
this morning, were deeply saddened as we turned on the radio, as all
Newfoundlanders and Labradorians do in the morning to get the early morning
news, to hear of this tremendous tragedy. Of course, our immediate fear is for
people whom we know. We all know people in the military, not only in the
Province but throughout the country, and to know that they have lost their lives
in the cause of freedom, especially in a friendly fire situation, which is a
very, very unfortunate situation.
On behalf of myself, and all the members of the caucus, we certainly want to
express our deepest condolences and our sympathy to the families involved, even
though I understand the names of all those who died in that terrible incident
are not known at this particular point in time. We certainly send our
condolences and, if it is any comfort to them, we are thinking of them, we
appreciate what their families have done, and what their sons and daughters have
done in the cause of freedom and in the war against terrorism. It is a great
sacrifice. It is the ultimate sacrifice. We certainly sympathize with them. It
is a tough moment, I think, for all of us when this happens, but we certainly
express our sympathy.
That is all I have to say, Mr. Speaker.
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi.
MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
It was with great horror and regret that I heard, and I am sure we all heard,
this morning of the death of four Canadians in Afghanistan. The sad reality of
war has really been brought home to all Canadians and all Newfoundlanders and
Labradorians today, and we can reflect on the reality of war and also the great
significance, I guess, of the decisions that are made and have to be made to
actually send troops to engage in battle.
The Princess Patricia's are in the forefront of most Canadian activity
overseas. My own brother served at one time in the Princess Patricia's, and I
know a lot of Newfoundlanders and Labradorians do as well.
We join with the Premier and the Leader of the Opposition in expressing our
great regret with what has happened, and our sincere and profound condolences to
the families of those young Canadians who are serving overseas on behalf of
their country. We are all very proud of their willingness to take on that very
important role, knowing that this is a possibility, but never imagining for a
moment that they would have to endure the supreme sacrifice that was made by
these four young Canadians yesterday.
I would want to join with all Members of the House of Assembly in offering
condolences and sharing in a moment of silence of behalf of their lives and
their sacrifice.
MR. SPEAKER: All rise, please.
[Members rise and observe a moment of silence]
MR. SPEAKER: Thank you.
Before we begin our routine proceedings today, I would like to take the
opportunity to acknowledge in the Speaker's gallery today the presence of
Louise and Bert Dacquay. Louise is currently an MLA in the Manitoba Legislature
and she is a former Speaker in that Legislative Assembly.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: As well, I would like to welcome to the gallery twelve
members of the Women's Institute of Newfoundland, the Clarke Branch,
accompanied by their Tour Organizer, Mrs. Doreen Coady.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: As well, we have fifty-six Grade 9 students from St. Kevin's
High School in the Goulds. These students are from the districts of Kilbride and
Ferryland and they are accompanied by teachers Dan Lavallee, Tina Rowe and
Tracey Saunders.
Could you welcome them, please?
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: As well, I would like to welcome to the gallery today, Mayor
Robert Elliot of the community of Point Leamington, accompanied by councillors,
Clarence Warford and Frazer Stuckless.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
Statements by Members
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Conception Bay East & Bell
Island.
MR. WALSH: Mr. Speaker, I rise today to pay tribute to one of this
Province's and Canada's pioneering journalists, an individual who I have had
an opportunity over the years to share a microphone with but not to have worked
with during my time at CBC, Mr. Harold Andrew Brown, known to us all as Harry.
Harry Brown passed away at the age of seventy-two on March 30, 2002, leaving
a legacy of five decades of broadcasting to Newfoundlanders and Labradorians as
well as to Canadians.
He began work at VOCM in 1951, and also worked at CJON in that time until
1957, when he joined the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation.
He made his mark here in local television with such programs as The Doyle
Bulletin, Kitchen Corner, Come All Ye Round, All Around The Circle , and of
course Here and Now before moving to Toronto in 1968, where his influence
became part of Canada's everyday lives. He was the original co-host of As
It Happens with Barbara Frum and hosted and co-hosted such programs as Morningside,
Marketplace, Take 30, CBC Toronto's Metro Morning show where he won an
ACTRA award in 1978 for excellence in broadcasting and TV Ontario's program Speaking
Out.
He is also recognized for Where Once They Stood , a program that is
still fondly remembered by many Newfoundlanders and Labradorians as well as his
tireless efforts in fundraising, in particular for the Janeway Hospital.
I offer condolences on behalf of all members of the House of Assembly to his
wife Mary, daughter Robin, and sons Harold, Murray, Keith, and Chris.
Harry will be remembered for his pride in this Province, his wit and warm
personality, and will be sadly missed by all of us who had the pleasure of
knowing him.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Waterford Valley.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. H. HODDER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
I rise today to inform the House of the Twin Cities Boxing Club in
conjunction with the Mount Pearl Sport Alliance, will be hosting the National
Boxing Championships, the Commonwealth Games Trials for Senior Men and the World
Championship Trials for Senior Women at the Glacier in Mount Pearl from April 25
to April 28.
The hosting of these three tournaments in our Province is a first time
occurrence and a highlight for amateur boxing enthusiasts in our region. As a
matter of fact, this is the largest Boxing Championships ever held in Canada at
one time. Approximately 130 boxers, coaches, officials, trainers, Boxing Canada
Executives and medical personnel will be here for the championships.
Congratulations are due, Mr. Speaker, to the fifteen-member hosting committee
that have worked so diligently and successfully to bring these championships to
Newfoundland and Labrador.
The championships will get under way next Thursday afternoon, April 25 and
will continue until Sunday, April 28. On Friday evening, April 26, there will be
a Vegas style evening with a greet and meet between 4:30 p.m. and 5:30 p.m.
followed by a Boxing Dinner Show.
Again, Mr. Speaker, I commend the Twin Cities Boxing Club for bringing this
special event to our Province and for offering our boxing enthusiasts an
opportunity to see some of the very best boxing in the world today.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Bay of Islands.
MR. FITZGERALD: (Inaudible) boxer now.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
AN HON. MEMBER: You better remember it too.
MR. JOYCE: To the Member from Bonavista South, 0 and 23 is not a bad
record.
Mr. Speaker, this past weekend I had the honour to attend the Cox's Cove
Volunteer Fire Department Annual Firemen's Ball.
At this event, several people received recognition for their valuable service
to the community. A special honour was bestowed to retiring firefighter Elwin
Park who was a founding member of the brigade in 1982. He received his
twenty-year service pin. Deputy Fire Chief, Wayne Payne, was chosen by his
compatriots as the town's Firefighter of the Year.
Nine other members were honoured. Chief Alex Park, Captain Derek Lovell and
medical technician Hughie Noseworthy received fifteen-year service pins.
Ten-year service pins were awarded to Deputy Chief Payne, Training Captain Cyril
Wheeler, Ron Payne, Paul Gillingham and Harvey Payne. Firefighter Darren Park,
received a pin for five years of service.
Mr. Speaker, I also want to make special mention of another group that
attended last weekend's event; the forty-seven women who make up the Firettes.
This group has raised tens of thousands of dollars to ensure that necessary
firefighting equipment is available. Their role in ensuring that the Cox's
Cove Volunteer Fire Department continues to serve should be recognized.
Mr. Speaker, I ask all members of this House to join me in commending all the
people across this Province who, like the people in Cox's Cove, make volunteer
fire departments the fine services they are.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Carbonear-Harbour Grace.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SWEENEY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
I rise today to congratulate Dr. Trent Keough, a native of Harbour Grace, who
has been appointed President of the College of the North Atlantic's new campus
in Qatar. Dr. Keough has worked at the College of the North Atlantic for the
past eight years. He served at the college's Carbonear campus before moving to
the Stephenville campus where he served as Director of Programs; a position he
held since his recent promotion as President of the Qatar campus.
The College of the North Atlantic signed a ten-year contract for $500 million
with the Middle East country in June of 2001. This is the largest contract
signed by a Canadian post-secondary educational institution. The contract calls
for the college to develop a technical training institute using Canadian
curriculum and Canadian standards. The programs at the Qatar campus will be
identical to the programs offered throughout Newfoundland and Labrador. The
campus will bring the very best of Canadian technical education to Qatar and
will employ approximately forty Newfoundlanders and Labradorians by the time it
opens in September.
Dr. Keough received his Ph.D. at Queens University and his appointment as the
first President of the Qatar campus shows that people from this Province can
lead the world in the field of education. Other appoints include Enid
Strickland, who will serve as Vice-President, Rick Penney will serve as Director
of Finance and Administration, and Brenda Newhook will serve as Director of
Student Services.
I ask the Members of the House of Assembly to join me in congratulating these
individuals and wish them success in Qatar.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
Statements by Ministers
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Tourism, Recreation and Culture.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MS BETTNEY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
I am pleased in the House today to recognize a tremendous accomplishment by
some talented residents of Newfoundland and Labrador.
Last night, the Newfoundland Symphony Youth Choir, conducted by Susan Knight,
won the grand prize at the 14 th CBC Choral Competition for Amateur
Choirs. This award, the Canada Council for the Arts Healey Willan Grand Prize,
includes a $5,000 monetary prize. The Grand Prize also includes a special
broadcast of the winning performance by CBC Radio Two and La Chaine Culturelle
de Radio-Canada.
This is a great honour for the Newfoundland Symphony Youth Choir at this
national competition and they should be commended for their talent and hard
work.
The Choral Competition is a national event which awards prizes for first- and
second-place winners in ten different categories. The Newfoundland Symphony
Youth Choir competed in the Youth Choirs (Equal Voice) category. As a national
semi-finalist in this category, the choir competed against another youth choir
from Ontario to win and claim the $3,000 top prize.
I also acknowledge the Quintessential Vocal Ensemble who, under the direction
of Susan Quinn, was the second-place winner in the Mixed Choirs category and was
awarded a prize of $2,000. The core group of this choir consists of graduate
members of the Holy Heart Chamber Choir. This choir has also won numerous awards
in its ten-year history, including winning first place in the Adult Category of
the Canadian Federation of Music Festivals in 2001.
Mr. Speaker, at this competition, the international jury picks one choir from
all who have competed to receive the Healey Willan Grand Prize. The award is
presented to the choir which gives the most convincing performance in
musicianship, technique and program, and we are very proud the jury unanimously
selected the Newfoundland Symphony Youth Choir from among other youth choirs as
well as adult, chamber and church choirs from all across Canada who competed in
the ten different categories.
Mr. Speaker, this is yet another honour for the Newfoundland Symphony Youth
Choir which has received numerous awards and acclamations since it was founded
in 1992. That includes an East Coast Music Association award. They are wonderful
ambassadors for this Province. They have traveled nationally and
internationally, singing our songs and sharing our culture. As Susan Knight
herself said, this award is a great affirmation of our place.
I congratulate both choirs and their conductors for this tremendous
accomplishment and I wish them all the best in the future.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Bonavista South.
MR. FITZGERALD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
We, too, on this side, would like to join in passing congratulations to those
two musical groups. Mr. Speaker, normally it is customary for a minister, if she
has a Ministerial Statement to make, to share it with the critic on the opposite
side so they would have a chance to read it and respond to it. This is the first
that I have heard about this particular Ministerial Statement, but we too join
in offering our congratulations and thanks to the people who go forward and
represent this Province. It is no surprise that we have Newfoundlanders, whether
they be musical groups or whether they be groups taking
part in other events
such as hockey and badminton, to go forward, represent the Province, and make us
proud. We have shown many times that we can compete not only with our own but
with Canada and the world.
I say to the Minister of Tourism, Culture and Recreation that maybe she
should have a chat with the Minister of Education as well, to inform her of the
importance of music in this Province, because it seems as though every time we
get -
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. FITZGERALD: It seems as though every time there is a cutback in
programs or a cutback in positions in our school system, one of the first
departments to go is music. So, I suggest that you talk to your counterpart, the
Minister of Education, and maybe we can enlighten her into the importance of
music in this Province and in our country.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi.
MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
I would like to join in congratulating Susan Knight and the Newfoundland
Symphony Youth Orchestra as well as the Quintessential Vocal Ensemble for their
great success on the national level in demonstrating the standard of excellence
that they are known for. In fact, in this Province there is quite a following
and interest in vocal music and choral music. We hosted the Festival 500 Voices
a couple of years ago and it has become a real event internationally as well. We
do know, of course, this is built on a history of musical education in this
Province going back many decades and, as the Member for Bonavista South had
mentioned, it is very important that this be continued in our schools.
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
The hon. member's time is up.
MR. HARRIS: By leave, Mr. Speaker?
MR. SPEAKER: Does the hon. member have leave?
AN HON. MEMBER: By leave.
MR. SPEAKER: By leave.
MR. HARRIS: I just want to make a personal comment. These young singers
sing for the joy of singing. They are all amateurs and I just want to say:
Christmastime I was in the hospital visiting someone who did not want to be in
hospital over Christmas. Along the corridor we heard these voices, singing
voices, and pretty soon in came seven young women dressed off in their costume
that they wear in their choir, and they were like vocal angels. They sang two or
three Christmas carols for the shear joy of doing it and giving pleasure to the
patients in the hospital. It is a real testament to their dedication to music,
to giving joy, enjoying singing and offering their talent to those to listen to.
This is a good example of how that has been recognized on the national level.
They are due sincere congratulations on behalf of all of us here today.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
Oral Questions
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. WILLIAMS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
My questions this afternoon are for the hon. the Premier. Yesterday, less
than twenty-four hours after the Liberal fundraiser in Toronto, Scott Hand, the
CEO of Inco said in a statement basically, and addressed to the shareholders on
the 100 th Anniversary of Inco said: There has been significant
progress in negotiations with the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador. There
are only a few outstanding items to be resolved. Premier Grimes and he had
agreed to sit down shortly to hammer out the details.
When asked to comment on Inco's statement yesterday the Premier said he was
suggesting that the CEO of Inco was getting ahead of himself.
Mr. Speaker, my question for the Premier is, I will ask the Premier: Is he
suggesting that the CEO of Inco is misleading his shareholders contrary to
Canadian securities, an offence under Canadian Securities regulations, or will
he come clean? Will he talk about the significant progress in negotiations, the
few outstanding items to be resolved and, in fact, whether they have agreed to
sit down shortly and hammer out the details? Can you answer those three
questions for me, Premier?
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
PREMIER GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
I can report this to the Legislature that I do know that Mr. Hand was very
proud to be speaking to his shareholders at their annual meeting on the occasion
of the 100 th Anniversary of Inco in Canada, because that is
significant. It is significant for Newfoundlanders and Labradorians and for this
Legislature because we have been working since 1996, trying to find a way with
Inco to develop a nickel deposit in Labrador for the benefit of Newfoundlanders
and Labradorians. We have been working very hard through the Minister of Mines
and Energy since last June to try to find a way to develop a nickel deposit in
Labrador for the benefit of Newfoundlanders and Labradorians.
Mr. Speaker, I was very pleased - and I am sure the Leader of the Opposition
read The Telegram today - and I would welcome that sense of optimism, and
I hope that Mr. Hand is right. All I can tell people of Newfoundland and
Labrador, as I have said before, is that it is well known in this Province the
general nature of the arrangement that we are trying to come to with Inco so
that we can have this development occur. The people of the Province know that we
support making the development happen for the benefit of Newfoundlanders and
Labradorians. The difficulty is they do not know if the Opposition is for or
against the development, and on what particular basis; and whether or not they
see a reasonable accommodation and negotiations being the right way to go.
So, Mr. Speaker, we are continuing on. There are no meetings scheduled
between myself and Mr. Hand.
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
I ask the hon. Premier now to conclude his answer.
PREMIER GRIMES: We have agreed some time ago that we do know that in the
final analysis there will need to be some final meeting between the two of us,
but it is certainly not scheduled yet. I hope it happens sooner rather than
later.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. WILLIAMS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
As always when we come to this issue the Premier refuses to answer any of the
questions. He makes allegations outside the House that the CEO of Inco is
running ahead of himself, but refuses to answer. It is the mark of an open,
accountable and transparent government. The only thing transparent in this House
is that man over there because we can see right through him.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
The hon. member is on a supplementary, I ask him to get to his question.
MR. WILLIAMS: Let's talk a little more about what Mr. Hand has said.
Mr. Hand also said that during earlier negotiations: the Province wanted an
ironclad guarantee that we will proceed with a commercial hydromet plant. He
said: I could not give it.
Mr. Speaker, I would ask the Premier: Can he confirm, for the people of
Argentia, for the people of Placentia, and indeed for the people of Newfoundland
and Labrador, if he will, in fact, secure that ironclad guarantee from Inco for
a commercial hydromet plant as part of a proposed deal with Inco?
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
PREMIER GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
I am delighted any time the Leader of the Opposition asks about hydromet
technology because, Mr. Speaker, I think that is also well-known to the media
and the people of the Province that it is a technology that requires some
further research and development. Mr. Speaker, nobody right now today is in a
position - nobody is an a position - to give an ironclad guarantee that hydromet
technology, which is the point that was raised, that hydromet technology will
work and will be the kind of plant that is built in Argentia.
Mr. Speaker, it relates back to the issue not of trusting anyone, but that
or tens of millions of dollars in doing research and development which the Blue
Book from the Official Opposition says: a PC government will aggressively invest
in research and development to aid in the development of new business
opportunities in the Province.
a willingness to spend federal dollars on research and development in
Newfoundland and Labrador so that somebody might be able to give an ironclad
guarantee that hydromet technology will work, the Leader of the Opposition, on
ten or fifteen or twenty different occasions in the Province, has changed his
reason each time, Mr. Speaker, but every time has found a reason to say: I am -
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
I ask the hon. Premier now to conclude his answer quickly.
PREMIER GRIMES: - against it. I think the money should be used for
something else. I do not agree with the federal government spending research and
development dollars in Newfoundland and Labrador -
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
I ask the hon. Premier now to take his seat.
PREMIER GRIMES: - to prove up a brand new technology that will see us
leading the world.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. WILLIAMS: The answer quite simply is: No, there is no guarantee of a
commercial facility for the people of Argentia and Placentia. That is the answer
time and time again.
More importantly again, Mr. Speaker, another very important issue. Yesterday,
Inco disclosed their plans for the use of iron ore in Voisey's Bay - what they
were going to do with it. I am sorry, nickel. Their CEO said that the nickel
mine in Thompson - and my apologies to my friends in the gallery - their CEO
said that the nickel mine in Thompson, Manitoba, has nearly run out. It is
actually, in fact, nearly depleted, as well as their operations in Sudbury. They
are going to use our ore from Voisey's Bay as an external feed for those
mines. That is the term. We are now feed for the mines in Manitoba and in
Ontario.
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
I ask the hon. member now to get to his question.
MR. WILLIAMS: Mr. Speaker, my question for the Premier is, and I ask: Why
has our world-class nickel find, our world-class project, been reduced to feed
for the veracious appetites of smelters in Manitoba and Ontario? Why we have no
guarantee, we have no guarantee - hon. members might laugh - this is a very
serious matter. You are all laughing! This is the future of our Province we are
talking about here!
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
I believe the hon. member has asked his question.
The hon. the Premier.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
PREMIER GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
I understand and recognize that the Leader of the Opposition was getting a
little exercised and a little agitated in asking the question, and made a couple
of mistakes. He did, at the end, talk about: you do not feed a mine. He did say
we were going to feed a mine. We do need feed, is the language used in the
industry for smelters and refiners, which he did talk about at the end.
Mr. Speaker, the issue is this: the Leader of the Opposition again, trying to
be a little bit cute about it and not wanting to tell the people of Newfoundland
and Labrador why he really won't support research and development so we can
have leading-edge technology here, moved quickly from hydromet technology, which
is what Mr. Hand talked about. Mr. Hand, rightfully so, because he is an honest,
straightforward person who is leading a very reputable company with a 100-year
history in the country, did say that nobody today can give a guarantee on a
hydromet facility.
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
I ask the hon. the Premier now to conclude his answer.
PREMIER GRIMES: The Leader of the Opposition turned around then and said:
Why is that there is no guarantee that there will be a commercial processing
facility? Which is a different language, a different word and a different
concept, because those who have studied the industry and the sector a bit know
that there are several different types of processing capabilities -
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
I ask the hon. Premier now to take his seat.
PREMIER GRIMES: - and technologies. The one we are trying to get to work
for Newfoundland and Labrador, Mr. Speaker, is hydromet technology -
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
PREMIER GRIMES: - but some (inaudible).
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. WILLIAMS: Mr. Speaker, the point is that this Premier and this
government are going to give away a $50 billion-plus asset without any
guarantees for the people of our Province. That is the problem here.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. WILLIAMS: Mr .Speaker, at the shareholders meeting yesterday, Mr.
Hand also said: The external feed - that is what we are, an external feed. That
is the term he used - from Voisey's Bay will keep operations in Thompson and
Ontario productive and competitive for a long, long time. We are going to keep
them going with our ore for a long time.
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
The hon. member is on a supplementary. I ask him now to get to his question.
MR. WILLIAMS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
He also said that they were going to relentlessly cut costs and hope to
create 300 new jobs in Sudbury this year. Three hundred new jobs with our ore.
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
I ask the hon. the member now to get to his question.
MR. WILLIAMS: Mr. Speaker, I would ask the Premier: If Inco hopes to use
our Voisey's Bay ore to keep Manitoba and Ontario productive and competitive
for a long period of time, what about our ore? What about our project? What
about our families? What about our jobs? What about our future? Shouldn't this
project be for the benefit of Newfoundlanders and Labradorians?
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
MR. WILLIAMS: Charity begins at home, Premier!
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
PREMIER GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
I do, despite the vicious and angry looking attack, take comfort - he is
angry, Mr. Speaker. He does acknowledge that, for the people of Newfoundland and
Labrador.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
The hon. the Premier.
PREMIER GRIMES: Mr. Speaker, I do take great comfort in this because the
same Leader of the Opposition, who is admitting that he is angry today, has
stated for the public record - unless it changes, because they has been known to
happen, too - that has been known to happen - he has stated, for the public
record, that if, in fact, in his reasoned moments, and his non-angry moments,
Mr. Speaker, he has stated that he will support the government if they can
deliver a project and deliver, in this particular case, an agreement, an
arrangement, whereby any raw material that leaves comes back. I believe he has
been on the public record as saying that.
AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).
PREMIER GRIMES: Oh, he is not on the public record; so that is a change,
Mr. Speaker. That has now changed. I guess, again, we do not know what his
position is. Maybe he will stand up afterwards and in a guise of question tell
us what it is.
Secondly, Mr. Speaker, that if we reach our objective, which has always been
to have nickel ore turned into a finished nickel product in Newfoundland and
Labrador, all of it, Mr. Speaker, over the life of the project, all of it over
the life of the project turned into a finished nickel product, right here in
Newfoundland and Labrador, he has been on the record as saying -
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
I ask the hon. Premier now to conclude his answer quickly.
PREMIER GRIMES: - he will support and endorse that if we can accomplish
it. So, to use the language of Mr. Hand, from yesterday, Mr. Speaker -
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
I ask the hon. Premier now to take his seat.
PREMIER GRIMES: - stay tuned.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. WILLIAMS: You had better believe I will stay tuned, because I am not
going to let you sell us out.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
MR. WILLIAMS: You can take that to the bank!
Mr. Speaker, we have heard the Premier talk about equivalent ore, that is the
weasel words, equivalent ore. We are going to get equivalent ore back. Two
premises for equivalent ore. First of all, it will only come back, Mr. Speaker,
if there is a reason for bringing it back.
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
The hon. member is on a supplementary and we need no
preambles. The hon.
member should get to his question.
MR. WILLIAMS: Mr. Speaker, I would ask the Premier: If there is no
guarantee that there will be a commercial hydromet facility, there is nothing
for it to come back to, premise one. Secondly, if the Thompson ore is depleted
and Sudbury has been on the go for 100 years, where is this magic ore going to
come from that you are going to return to this Province? Do you know, Premier?
Because there is no guarantee from Inco that we are ever going to get anything
back. Do you know why you don't care? Because you will not be around to see
it. That is why.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
The hon. the Premier.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
PREMIER GRIMES: Mr. Speaker, again let me say this. I do take great
comfort in the fact that the Leader of the Opposition has stated for the public
record that, when those kinds of questions are answer to the affirmative and to
the satisfaction of the people of Newfoundland and Labrador, that he will
support this deal. I look forward to that day being sooner rather than later.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. WILLIAMS: Mr. Speaker, my position and the position of the caucus has
always been that we will definitely support the right deal for the benefit of
Newfoundlanders and Labradorians, no question.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. WILLIAMS: Mr. Speaker, without guarantees, this Province could find
itself in the position in five to seven years whereby there is no hydromet
facility, there is no ore coming back to the Province -
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
The hon. member is on a supplementary; I ask him to get to his question.
MR. WILLIAMS: - and another 55,000 people have left this Province,
probably gone to Manitoba and probably gone to Ontario.
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
The hon. member is on a supplementary now; I ask him to get to his question
quickly.
MR. WILLIAMS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Mr. Speaker, I would ask the Premier: Will you please reconsider your
reckless and foolhardy position on Inco -
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. WILLIAMS: - and safeguard the interests and the jobs and the families
and the future of this Province? Please, Premier!
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Trinity North.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. ROSS WISEMAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
My question today is for the Minister of Health and Community Services.
Mr. Speaker, we understand that as of March 31, 2002, just a couple of months
ago, the health boards in this Province had an accumulated deficit of roughly
$120 million. Mr. Speaker, will the minister confirm today that there are some
chartered banks in this Province who are expressing concern about the rapid rate
of increase of the debts of these health boards, the rapid increase in the size
of the overdrafts and the increase in the lines of credit of these boards; so
much so that they are not going to renew their lines of credit this year without
having significant preconditions attached to them? Can the minister confirm that
for the House today?
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health and Community Services
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SMITH: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
MR. FITZGERALD: Is she gone into bankruptcy, Premier?
MR. SMITH: Mr. Speaker, I would say to the hon. Member for Bonavista
South: No, indeed, she is not gone into bankruptcy.
MR. FITZGERALD: Well, it sounds (inaudible).
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
The Chair has recognized the hon. minister.
MR. SMITH: I would say to the hon. member, when he gets referred to as
the Minister for Health and Community Services then he can rise and speak to the
- and I think that is sometime down the road.
Mr. Speaker, to the issue -
AN HON. MEMBER: With the competition between Ross and Sheila over there,
Roger, you are not going to get in.
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health and Community Services.
MR. SMITH: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
It is a serious issue that the hon. member raises. We are all aware of the
difficulties that we have been confronted with in this Province in the last
number of years in trying to meet the challenges that are out there. Indeed, the
hospital boards have been working diligently, as have the officials of my
department working with them, in coming up with a plan to deal with the
long-term debt. This is no surprise to the people in this Province, and surely
to anyone in this House, the challenges that we have faced in trying to meet the
increasing demands in health care.
I just made a presentation to the Romanow Commission on Monday which outlined
the fact that the costs of delivering health care in this Province have been
increasing significantly in recent years, and this has been coupled with the
fact that during that same period of time we have seen a decline in the amount
of support that has been coming from the federal government. The math is fairly
simple, and it is fairly easy to understand the challenges that we have had and
the difficulties that we have had.
Mr. Speaker, we are working closely with the Health Care Corporations in
dealing with their deficit problems. The budgets for this year have not yet been
finalized. I do say to the hon. member that this minister is -
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
I ask the hon. minister now to conclude his answer.
MR. SMITH: - confident that working with the very capable people we have
working for the Health Care Corporations we will be able to come to a
satisfactory resolution.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Member for Trinity North.
MR. ROSS WISEMAN: Mr. Speaker, will the minister confirm for the House
today that he has advised the health boards to only pay the interest on that
debt and to make no effort in debt reduction at all in this year? Will the
minister confirm he has told the boards that, Mr. Speaker?
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health and Community Services.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SMITH: Mr. Speaker, it is amazing what a change in view, what a
change in perspective can make with a person's outlook. It is amazing. This is
the same individual who, a little over a year ago from this vantage point over
here, had a completely different perspective on the state of health care in this
Province. Also, it is amazing that just by walking this distance to that
distance what a change has been made inside the head of that individual.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SMITH: I am at a loss to understand how things could have changed so
significantly in that simple walk.
Mr. Speaker, the people of this Province are well aware of the commitment of
this government. Last year some 44 per cent of our budget was expended on health
care. In this present year, forty-five cents of every dollar will be spent on
health care. That is our commitment to health care. That is a commitment of this
government.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
A final supplementary, the hon. the Member for Trinity North.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. ROSS WISEMAN: Mr. Speaker, I can tell the minister, that was a very
enlightening walk, a walk that was a path well lit -
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. ROSS WISEMAN: - and a walk that was well directed and well-intended,
and there are 120 million other reasons why the walk took place.
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
I ask the hon. member now to get to his question.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. ROSS WISEMAN: Mr. Speaker, will the minister today acknowledge that
the real reason that he told the boards not to do anything with their $120
million debt, the reason he told boards not to borrow it, because it would
require government guarantee and it would show as an expense on this year's
books and he was trying to hide a $120 million deficit from this year's
budget? Will he confirm today that is what he did?
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
The hon. the Minister of Health and Community Services.
MR. SMITH: Mr. Speaker, again, it is absolutely amazing. To begin with,
certainly the hon. member, as I mentioned earlier, is referencing a very serious
issue. There is no question. We are all aware of that. This is nothing
enlightening that he is bringing to the floor of the House today. The thing that
is really enlightening to me, and certainly to the people on this side of the
House and, indeed, to the people of his own district and the people of this
Province, is how he can rationalize in a radio provincial affairs which he did
back in April, 2001, in which he says: In the last five years there has been a
40 per cent increase in the annual contribution to operating health care
services. It has increased from $1 billion in 1996 to about $1.4 billion in
2001-2002, and such an unprecedented commitment of funds cannot go unnoticed,
but it is clear that this government has proven and continues to demonstrate it
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
I ask the hon. the minister now to conclude his answer.
MR. SMITH: - and is committed to providing good health care for the
people of this Province.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SMITH: Mr. Speaker, I cannot say it any better.
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for The Straits & White Bay North.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. TAYLOR: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Mr. Speaker, the abuses of foreign nations outside our 200-mile limit have
been widely reported in recent months. The latest event was highlighted in the
manifest of the Russian trawler, Tynda that landed in Bay Roberts. It reported
one ton of cod liver on-board, yet only reported 7.6 tons of cod in its catch.
It had thirty-four tons of fish meal with no indication of what species the fish
meal came from and left port with eighty tons of fish remaining on-board with no
disclosure of the species.
My question for the provincial minister is this: How is the provincial
Fisheries Minister informed of the activities in the NAFO regulatory area? Is
there a timely flow of information from his federal counterpart, or does he find
out about it like everybody else in the Province when it is reported in the
media?
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. REID: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
This government, since 1989, is well aware of the problem that we face with
foreign overfishing on the Nose and Tail of the Grand Banks as well as the
Flemish Cap. We have been fighting that battle since 1989 with the Tory
government in Ottawa at the time, from 1989 to 1993, along with the previous
government in Ottawa. We put aside $100,000 two weeks ago in the Budget for a
foreign overfishing campaign to enlighten our neighbours in Canada as to the
need to do something to prevent what is happening to our fish stocks on the Nose
and Tail of the Grand Banks. Again, I ask the hon. members opposite, along with
FANL and the union, who are already onside, to help us fight that battle, not
only in Canada but as well as in the EU.
Thank you.
MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary, the hon. the Member for The Straits
& White Bay North.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. TAYLOR: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Once again, as he has done so many times in recent days, the minister speaks
about working together on this issue. Well, I will borrow the minister's own
words on this at this time, Mr. Speaker. I will ask him: Will he stop, as he
said in the last couple of days, playing cheap politics with this? Will he
denounce the federal minister, the federal inaction? Will he take a stand,
announce his strategy, join the fight that he has been silent on and absent from
on foreign overfishing off the coast of this Province? We will then stand with
him on this issue, Mr. Speaker.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. REID: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
He talks about joining him and the Opposition in Ottawa - the Tory Party in
Ottawa I guess he is talking about - in fighting the foreign overfishing
campaign. I can remember sitting in the Fisheries Minister's office in Ottawa,
one Mr. John Crosbie, who was the Federal Fisheries Minister at the time, and he
told us that there was no way that he could get his government to go along with
sending out the Armed Forces on the Nose and Tail of the Grand Banks because he
would never be able to convince the then minister of External Affairs, Joe
Clark, to take action. Now, that is the people that he wants us to join sides
with in Ottawa.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Labrador West.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. TAYLOR: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
I am not concerned about what happened -
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
The Chair has recognized the hon. Member for Labrador West.
MR. COLLINS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
My question is for the Minister of Tourism, Culture and Recreation.
As the minister knows, this years targeted tourism initiative for Labrador is
called Access North-Labrador 2002. We thought: Finally, Labrador is going to get
the attention it deserves as a great destination for tourism. Imagine the
disappointment, I say to the minister, when I, and others, were looking through
the latest issue of Canadian Maclean's magazine and saw a three
full-page ad for tourism related to this Province and not one of them mentioning
Labrador. The same ads, I say to the minister, ran in Time magazine on
the March 25 issue.
When the Access North program was launched the previous minister stated that
as of 2002 everything was ready for the launching of Labrador as a tourism
destination. I ask the minister: Given the fact that there is an emphasis on
Labrador tourism this year, why are full-page ads running in national magazines
that do not include one mention of Labrador?
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Tourism, Culture and Recreation.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MS BETTNEY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Mr. Speaker, this very excellent marketing campaign that all of us have seen
in the magazines that the member has mentioned is just one facet of our
marketing program for the Province as a whole, and in this case it is a generic
piece of marketing which is intended to attract people generally to the Province
of Newfoundland and Labrador. There is every intention of also doing very
specific marketing around Access North - Labrador 2002 celebrations. In fact,
Destination Labrador has prepared a marketing plan which will lay out a strategy
which positions Labrador in the key markets across the country and
internationally.
The member can expect to see some very high quality targeted marketing on
Labrador in the days and weeks to come that will certainly focus on the
unspoiled environment that we have there on the Moravian Celebrations and on the
excellent outdoor, very unique, sport-type opportunities that exist. So there
will be followup to this marketing. It is just one piece of our overall campaign
for the year.
MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Member for Labrador West.
MR. COLLINS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
I say to the minister, that may be all well and fine, but it may be a little
too late. Most people do not want until June to decide what they are going to do
for their vacation that year.
I ask the minister: Given the fact that this is a year that is designated to
tourism in Labrador, will the minister guarantee that in future ads, whether it
be for this year or years to come, that when there is mass advertising in
national magazines, will there be some area of that ad dedicated to Labrador?
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Tourism, Culture and Recreation.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MS BETTNEY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Mr. Speaker, perhaps I should provide a few more details, then, on some of
the ads that will be provided here. We are talking about running a full
colour-print ad in Ontario and in the Maritimes that will feature Labrador. We
are talking about a four-page insert in the Maritime newspapers, in the Toronto
Star , that are featuring Newfoundland and Labrador, and Labrador
specifically. We are talking about direct mail of a CD to 70,0000 households
across the country, that includes the wonderful video that has been developed on
Labrador, Spirit in the Stone.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MS BETTNEY: So, there is a lot more that will be happening in Labrador.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
MR. SPEAKER: Question Period has ended.
Petitions
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Bonavista South.
MR. FITZGERALD: Mr. Speaker, I have a petition today to be presented here
in the House. The petition reads:
To the hon. House of Assembly of Newfoundland, in legislative session
convened. The petition of the undersigned residents of Newfoundland:
WHEREAS Route 235 from Birchy Cove to Bonavista has not been upgraded since
it was paved approximately twenty-five year ago; and
WHEREAS this
section of Route 235 is in such a terrible condition that
vehicles are being damaged, including the school buses serving schools in the
area, and school children are finding their daily trips over the road very
difficult;
WHEREFORE your petitioners urge the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador
to upgrade and pave the approximately four kilometers of Route 235 from Birchy
Cove to Bonavista.
Mr. Speaker, this particular part of Route 235 is on the lower end of the
peninsula from Birchy Cove leading into Bonavista. Approximately six kilometers
of roadway there has been in deplorable condition. People from outside the area
have written letters. I have received petitions with names on them from pretty
well all across the country, because it is a popular place in the summertime.
Tourists congregate to this area to see the beauty and to see the nature of the
Bonavista Peninsula.
Mr. Speaker, I have had the minister down over that
section of roadway twice
in this last year, to his credit. He has made two trips down over that
section
of roadway. Last year we were fortunate enough to get 1.9 kilometers of that
stretch of roadway upgraded and paved. We are still looking for approximately
three-and-a-half to four kilometers.
Mr. Speaker, a few years ago there were many meetings that took place. The
former Minister of Works, Services and Transportation, now the Minister of
Forest Resources and Agrifoods, made the trip down with me and knows full well
the deplorable condition of this stretch of roadway. In the past two years, I
have had two ministers and the deputy minister down looking at this particular
stretch of roadway and they have all agreed that something needs to be done with
it. The problem is, it never seems to get done. This
section of roadway, this
five kilometers, has now been attempted to be repaired and upgraded for a
five-year period. We have gone down there and done ditching one year, and put in
culverts. The next year we have gone down there and we have done 400 meters.
Another year we went down there and did a small
section of roadway which I would
say was about 150 meters. Last year we did 1.9 kilometers and we are still
asking and begging and pleading with the government of the day to come and
upgrade and repave this
section of roadway, one of the main highways leading
into the Town of Bonavista.
Approximately three years ago, the residents in the area there wanted to
highlight the concern and the need to have this road upgraded and repaved.
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
The hon. member's time is up.
MR. FITZGERALD: By leave, just a minute to conclude, if I may.
MR. SPEAKER: Does the hon. member have leave?
SOME HON. MEMBERS: By leave.
MR. SPEAKER: By leave.
MR. FITZGERALD: Mr. Speaker, being responsible, they did not want to go
out and block the roadway. They did not want to stop people from going to work.
They did not want to stop seniors from accessing health care. They did not want
to stop school children from going to school. What they did is, they stood on
this
section of highway, I say to you, Premier, and they handed out pamphlets to
ask people for their support. That is how understanding those people have been.
The plea, Mr. Speaker, is simple. The plea is to have this
section of roadway
considered in this year's capital budget to go and upgrade and pave the
approximately three kilometers of the main roadway leading from the end of Route
235 from Birchy Cove to Bonavista.
Thank you.
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for St. Barbe.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. YOUNG: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
I, too, have a petition on the roads in the District of St. Barbe, which are
in deplorable condition, and I will read the prayer now.
To the hon. House of Assembly of Newfoundland and Labrador in legislative
session convened, the petition of the undersigned residents of Newfoundland and
Labrador;
WHEREAS the District of St Barbe is in a desperate need of road improvements;
and
WHEREAS the District of St. Barbe supports large amounts of traffic
especially during tourist season; and
WHEREAS many roads in the District of St. Barbe have deteriorated to the
point where they are a safety risk;
WHEREFORE your petitioners urge the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador
to invest in the necessary restoration and improvements so that persons using
the roads in the District of St. Barbe may do so without compromising their
safety, as in duty bound your petitioners will ever pray.
Mr. Speaker, as I have just read, much of the District of St. Barbe is in a
deplorable condition. As the minister who toured the district, just a few weeks
ago, can attest to himself. The roads have continuously deteriorated and last
year we did not see any improvements whatsoever, and there were no sections of
the road done. One of the things that we have done on the Northern Peninsula is
turn to tourism since the cod moratorium, hoping that this would supply jobs for
the much needed shortage of work.
One of the areas I would think that the minister should be looking at is down
in Gros Morne where the park will be doing so much of their road upgrading this
year, and out of that is the Sally's Cove enclave which the Province is
responsible for. If the park is going to do the 6.4 kilometres maybe the
minister should look at the 4.2 kilometres in the Sally's Cove enclave.
As well, Mr. Speaker, maybe the minister would consider up in the Anchor
Point area. I think he had taken the time to go and see the mayor there and look
at the conditions of the road. Anchor Point is one of the more fortune
communities on the Northern Peninsula with a shrimp plant and the heavy traffic,
because of that plant, has made living in that community unbearable in the
summertime. So, I think it would be a suggestion maybe if the minister would
consider that as well. The thing that the minister must remember is that road is
twenty-five years old or older and much of it needs to be resurfaced.
Thank you.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Labrador West.
MR. COLLINS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
I rise today to present a petition on behalf of residents of Labrador West,
and indeed all Labrador in some cases. I will read the petition:
To the hon. House of Assembly of the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador in
parliament assembled, the petition of the undersigned residents, humbly sheweth;
WHEREAS the Labrador Transportation Initiative Fund was set up with $347.6
million from the federal government for transportation in Labrador; and
WHEREAS this fund requires that money in the fund - the act requires that
money in this fund be used for the maintenance of marine and ferry services to
Labrador, construction of the Trans-Labrador Highway, and other initiatives
related to transportation in Labrador; and
WHEREAS the Liberal Government announced in the 2002 Budget that $97 million
would be taken out of the Labrador Transportation Initiative Fund and added to
the general revenues of the Province to be used for purposes outside this act.
We the undersigned petitioners believe that the raiding of the Labrador
Transportation Initiative Fund is a gross violation of the purposes of this fund
and a breach of trust with the people of Labrador and hereby petition the House
of Assembly to direct the government to immediately put this $97 million back
into the fund to be spent on transportation initiatives in Labrador.
I can say, Mr. Speaker, that $97 million could be easily spent on
transportation initiatives in Labrador. When we look at the vast amount of road
network that is already established, that will require constant upgrading
because it is a gravel road that in the spring of the year certainly encounters
major transportation problems with washouts and with softening of the road.
Maintenance is always something that will be required to be done throughout
different periods of the year in order to make it fit for the travelling public.
In addition to that, the number of businesses that use that highway to
transport their goods are increasing each year. So, it is a priority for a lot
of people who live in Labrador and who do business in Labrador, that this road
be maintained in a good condition. We have a fear, Mr. Speaker, that will not be
able to be done, given the fact that now roadwork in Labrador will have to
compete with roadwork on the Island portion of the Province for the same few
dollars that is available throughout all of the regions;
whereas prior to this,
we had a pool of money that we could draw on - even the interest - that would
improve road conditions. What we got for this $97 million was a promise, and
people keep referring to over the next six years'. Well that is not really
true because it is six years from the time the environmental impact study is
done and that is not completed yet, and may not be for some time to come. We got
a promise that six years following that we will have a link between Cartwright
and Goose Bay.
AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).
MR. COLLINS: Just to conclude, Mr. Speaker?
MR. SPEAKER: By leave.
MR. COLLINS: Just to conclude, Mr. Speaker, thank you.
We do not believe, the people in Labrador - many of the people I speak to and
talk to - do not believe that this will happen as the government says it will
because the money will just not be there to do it. We had the money and now the
government intends to take that, and we feel that the
section of highway to hook
up the Labrador Highway complete is in jeopardy by this move.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Baie Verte.
MR. SHELLEY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
I rise today to present yet another petition from my district, Mr. Speaker.
Today it is from the people in Jackson's Cove, Langdon's Cove, Harry's
Harbour, that area of the Province. In the Green Bay
section of my district, and
I will make note of that in a minute. I want to read the petition first:
We, the undersigned residents of the district, do hereby petition the House
of Assembly to upgrade and pave our roads. The deplorable and unfit conditions
of the roads in our area make travelling to and from school unsafe for our
children, as well as jeopardize the safety of the travelling public; but also
hurt economic growth opportunities and betray a lack of commitment to rural
areas of Newfoundland and Labrador.
Mr. Speaker, this is a another petition, as I said, I am presenting to this
House today when we talk about roads; but the people who always sign these
petitions say the same thing. They do not want to be going door-to-door getting
petitions signed because they have a gravel road that they have to go over every
single day.
The people in Green Bay, Mr. Speaker - as a matter of fact I will make this
statement, that many people over the past have said that Mr. Peckford, former
Premier of this Province, that was part of his district - he believed that every
single road was done in Green Bay. Well, I am here to tell you that it is not.
This particular road is probably one of the most deplorable gravel roads that I
have ever seen. As a matter of fact, there are even people in the depot - the
minister's own people who work in the department - when a request for a grader
is given to at least do that, they turn around and say it is not even worth
grading anymore. There is nothing left there to grade. They have been grading it
for so long that it has gone down to bedrock. That is the problem we have now,
besides the fact we have these gravel roads; then you turn around and you have
1,500, 1,600 kilometres of old paved road. They are starting to crack and pop
up. So now we have a double problem of gravel roads in the Province and old
pavement in this Province.
As my colleague from St. Barbe talked about earlier today on the Northern
Peninsula, up in The Straits & White Bay North, in Bonavista South, and
throughout the Province; in Twillingate, where I was a couple of weekends ago.
It is all over the Province. We have a major problem that has been accumulating
and escalating in this Province that has never really been addressed.
Over the last ten or twelve years, Mr. Speaker, it is simple mathematics when
you look at $18 million to $20 million again this year. The minister knows, and
everybody in this House knows, that he has at least a demand for $300 million
worth of work that needs to be done; that is urgent. Mr. Speaker, how is it
going to work? It cannot work. That is not a plan. All that is, is every year a
one-stop gap where we try to calm people down in the spring of the year by
putting out a couple of kilometres here, a couple of kilometees there, settling
everybody down. It is not a plan. The truth is, the problem has gotten so large
now that the only real solution is for this government to go with their cousins
in Ottawa to come up with a new program, a federal-provincial program. It is the
only way to attack the magnitude of this problem now.
Here are people in this part of Green Bay, Mr. Speaker, with over fifteen
kilometres of gravel roads, school children every morning getting on a bus,
beating up and down that road. It is hard enough to encourage your children
sometimes to keep in school, but if you have to do that every morning that is
another obstacle in their way. That is something else you have to convince them
that you have to do what you have to do.
Mr. Speaker, there are times when people call me from this district and say:
I feel like I am going over a scrub board. There are other times they tell me
they are going down in potholes and their cars are being damaged and so on. It
is just simply that people are sick and tired that in the year 2002, in
Newfoundland and Labrador, we have gravel roads. It is unimaginable if you stop
to think about it. What they are asking is: Where is the priority in spending
going? On things that are necessary like roads, water and sewer and so on, that
is where they think the money should be spent.
Mr. Speaker, on behalf of the people in Green Bay, Harry's Harbour,
Jacksons Cove, Langdon's Cove, Silverdale, these people believe they deserve a
sensible transportation route from their community, just like anybody else in
this Province. They do not want double-lane highways, just a simple bit of
upgrading and some pavement for these people.
MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!
The hon. member's time is up.
MR. SHELLEY: I support this petition, Mr. Speaker.
Thank you.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
Orders of the Day
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Government House Leader.
MR. LUSH: Order 2, Mr. Speaker, and I move that the House resolve itself
into Committee of Supply.
On motion, that the House resolve itself into a Committee of Supply, Mr.
Speaker left the Chair.
Committee of Supply
CHAIR (Mercer): Order, please!
The hon. the Minister of Finance and President of Treasury Board.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
MS J.M. AYLWARD: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Today I understand under the Orders of the Day we will be dealing with the
Consolidated Fund services for the Province. For the people of the Province
listening, this is a very technical issue, but I think it is obviously a very
important one. It speaks to the expenditures made which represent the interest
costs to the Province and the management expenses associated with servicing the
public debt of our Province, and also the funding of our pension plans. So, as
the day goes through, I will be happy to answer the questions. Again, I will
provide the best detail I can. If there is further information required, I will
be happy to provide that information to the member opposite.
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
CHAIR: Could I ask the Clerk, perhaps, to call the first Head.
CLERK: 1.1.01
CHAIR: The hon. the Member for Ferryland.
MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I have questions on the first item, 1.1.01., Temporary Borrowings.
Appropriations provide for interest expenses on temporary borrowings. Last year
it was $400,000 spent on that item, and forecasted this year is $500,000. What
was the total amount at any one particular time? I would assume it must have
been in the $10 million range. Would that be accurate? If not, could the
minister give me the specifics on that particular one?
CHAIR: The hon. the Minister of Finance and Treasury Board.
MS J.M. AYLWARD: Thank you, Mr. Chair.
There are varying amount, but I think that is about accurate, approximately
$10 million.
CHAIR: The hon. the Member for Ferryland.
MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I am just judging. The reason I asked that amount is because I am just
assuming, at ongoing interest rates, I am just taking a shot at what the
interest would be. If there is a variation there, I guess it will be picked up
in due course in answers to the questions.
Mr. Chairman, will I move on to 1.1.02., or do you wish to call each one?
CHAIR: No, it is my understanding that we will debate the entire
(inaudible) of the bill.
MR. SULLIVAN: Okay.
I will make reference to 1.1.02., Treasury Bills. That is the interest
expense on Treasury bills borrowings. When you look at that amount of $17.5
million, I would assume we are probably talking about what? In the $400 million
range? Would that be inaccurate? Could the minister give me a rough figure that
we had out, in total, to garner that amount of interest?
CHAIR: The hon. the Minister of Finance.
MS J.M. AYLWARD: Yes, the exact amount is $494 million dollars.
CHAIR: The hon. the Member for Ferryland.
MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
The next one is Debentures. That is an actual amount paid there on
debentures. It provides for interest expenses on debenture debt and other
borrowings. That amount in total there was $453 million. I guess, when we look
at Appendix II, it would show what our debt is. In the next one, too, I will
just make reference to both the Canada Pension Plan of $62.5 million. I think if
we reference Appendix II, I think that one is spelled out pretty clear there. I
think Appendix II shows that our Canada Pension Plan totals $62,565,500. If we
total all that up, I think we are talking about maybe in the vicinity of $600
million, I would assume, borrowings on the Canada Pension Plan. Would that be
correct? I guess the total of each of those there is in that ballpark anyway.
That would be the only expense under this item. I cannot see anything else.
Would that be accurate, I ask the minister?
MS J.M. AYLWARD: What number is that?
MR. SULLIVAN: Under 1.1.04. That is strictly our borrowing, I am
assuming, under the Canada Pension Plan, which are listed in Appendix II at the
back of the Budget document there. It shows the different - I think there are
fourteen different borrowing terms. There is a twenty-year term on the Canada
Pension borrowings, I understand. Each of these are listed and, of course, the
interest applied to this year is listed as 62-something, so that would be the
only ones, I might add, that would be there? Would that be correct?
CHAIR: The hon. the Minister of Finance.
MS J.M. AYLWARD: Thank you, Mr. Chair.
You can see under the vote, the vote is Canada Pension Plans, so it only
refers to the Canada Pension Plan.
MR. SULLIVAN: Exactly the same?
MS J.M. AYLWARD: Exactly the same, and they are all listed out in
Appendix II of the text book.
CHAIR: The hon. the Member for Ferryland.
MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
In 1.1.05, it shows some revenue there that is revenue of available cash that
you would have at any one time in the money markets or bank balances and so on.
That is showing $1.5 million. If there is any big variation, maybe the minister
can comment; but I am assuming we are talking in the range of $30 million
usually at any given time borrowing to bring around that amount of interest.
CHAIR: The hon. the Minister of Finance.
MS J.M. AYLWARD: Yes, and the reason you can see the change is because
obviously this is a very fluid piece associated with the investments, because it
could be anything from overnight to a day to a week and it depends, obviously,
based on the length of time and the rates at that point in time. It is very hard
to predict, but obviously you are very dependent on the rates.
CHAIR: The hon. the Member for Ferryland.
MR. SULLIVAN: I just wanted to ask the minister: What was the average
rate that was received, we will say, last year? What would be the approximate
amount that you would receive to receive that amount of interest?
I guess also, while I am asking that question, what would be the amount that
we might have had to pay out, I guess, in 1.1.01.? What roughly was the rate
that we paid on interest, and what they would receive on cash that we may have
had in the money market or cash sitting in an account. If you could just give us
the two ballpark figures for each one.
CHAIR: The hon. the Minister of Finance.
MS J.M. AYLWARD: Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Right now our Treasury bills are ranging between about 2.3 per cent and 2.4
per cent. Our ninety-one day Treasury bill interest rate, which is what we do
most frequently, as you know, is about 2.34 per cent. The bond ratings is about
5.5 per cent. Ten-year bonds, 6.15 per cent, and the thirty-year bonds, 6.5 per
cent.
CHAIR: The hon. the Member for Ferryland.
MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
In 1.1.06: Appropriations provide for interest paid to the Province on loans
to various public and private entities, as well as interest collected on loans
by the Province's various lending agencies. What would be some areas, various
public and private entities, that would be covered under this particular one?
Could the minister mention some of those?
CHAIR: The hon. the Minister of Finance.
MS J.M. AYLWARD: Thank you, Mr. Chair.
This account represents the interest on a number, as you pointed out, of
public and private entities, and they include some of the commercial entities
and municipalities. It also includes the return of interest from collections we
have made from the Fisheries Loan Board as well as the Farm Development Loan
Board and ENL.
MR. SULLIVAN: I missed the last one.
MS J.M. AYLWARD: ENL. We have Corner Brook Pulp and Paper, which was one
of those.
MR. SULLIVAN: What would that amount be?
MS J.M. AYLWARD: Well, there is nothing estimated for this year because
it is actually paid off, but it was $243,000.
MR. SULLIVAN: The expense for last year was $243,000?
MS J.M. AYLWARD: That is right.
The St. John's Regional Sewer System was a 1983 account.
MR. SULLIVAN: Okay.
MS J.M. AYLWARD: That is a declining amount, obviously, because the
principal is being reduced, so the payments now are being reduced.
MR. SULLIVAN: What is left on that now?
MS J.M. AYLWARD: It is predicted now, the payment for - the total amount
owing over the life of it I would have to get for you, but in terms of this year's
Budget and what is due is $89,100.
The other obvious one is the Department of Development and Rural Renewal, or
the Department of Industry Trade and Rural Development right now. The amount
there again has decreased because, in fact, we have, as you know, the policy of
this government - we have delivered fewer loans. One of our policies is that we
are into fewer loans. Most of those are already in place. Also, a number of our
larger accounts have been settled out.
MR. SULLIVAN: Yes.
MS J.M. AYLWARD: Therefore, obviously, we are collecting less because
they have been settled.
CHAIR: The hon. the Member for Ferryland.
MR. SULLIVAN: I want to ask the minister: Would that be the only private
one, Corner Brook Pulp and Paper? I guess, if you look outside the immediate
(inaudible), the St. John's Sewer one, are there any other private companies
that are included in this particular section?
CHAIR: The hon. the Minister of Finance.
MS J.M. AYLWARD: I will repeat again, the three are: Corner Brook Pulp
and Paper, St. John's Regional Sewer System, and the Department of Development
and Rural Renewal, for a total of $1.53 million.
MR. SULLIVAN: Okay.
MS J.M. AYLWARD: As the number reflects in the Estimates.
CHAIR: The hon. the Member for Ferryland.
MR. SULLIVAN: Okay, thank you.
I guess the Department of Development and Rural Renewal is not really
private, but I guess the loans are out to private people. I guess that is why.
MS J.M. AYLWARD: That is correct. It is an encapsulated amount of the
loans that are outstanding, and many of these would be obviously to private
sector companies and other arrangements associated with that department.
MR. SULLIVAN: Okay.
CHAIR: The hon. the Member for Ferryland.
MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Under 1.1.07., that is, I think, fairly explanatory. Under 1.108., Interest
Subsidy - CMHC, Appropriations provide for a subsidy from the Canada Mortgage
and Housing Corporation relative to interest on debt issued for the extension
and renovations completed during 1987 at the Harbour Lodge, Carbonear.
Basically, that amount here of $151,400, how long more, basically, are the
subsidies going to continue? It was the same amount last year and again this
year. What is the lifetime of that? Over how many years would that be before we
stop receiving it? I guess we would stop receiving a subsidy, I would assume,
once the debt is retired. Would that be accurate? Could the minister just give
me the specifics there on how long it is projected to continue?
CHAIR: The hon. the Minister of Finance.
MS J.M. AYLWARD: Thank you, Mr. Chair.
It is to be paid over a thirty-five-year period. It started back in
1986-1987. The amounts right here, obviously, are $151,400; but, again, as the
principal reduces the amount will change. But for last year and this year.... I
think the amounts change every five years and they will decline appropriately.
So it is a thirty-five-year arrangement. I guess there is always an option of
doing a refinancing at some point in time, but right now it is a
thirty-five-year arrangement that would be retired and the amounts will decline
over that period of time.
CHAIR: The hon. the Member for Ferryland.
MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I guess the reason it is the same last year and this year is because, like
you said, it is a five-year term so there wouldn't be a change in the amount
in that five-year period. On renewal, I guess, we would expect in the next term
that it would be lower than that and it will be decreasing unless, for some
reason, there had to be a refinancing which would create a different set of
payment
schedule and a different requirement.
Under Investment Recoveries, Capital, 1.2.01., here it says: Appropriations
provide for principal recovery from various loans, advances and investments.
Could the minister tell us which loans, advances and investments, and the
amount that is appropriated to each?
CHAIR: The hon. the Minister of Finance.
MS J.M. AYLWARD: Thank you, Mr. Chair.
The
schedule of the loans include Corner Brook Pulp and Paper, which I just
identified a moment ago now has been paid off, and I think that is very good
news; Newfoundland Industrial Development Corporation, $900,000; Newfoundland
and Labrador Housing Corporation, $10 million; St. John's Regional Sewer
System - this is again more on the principal - $62,900; and the windup of the
Gull Island Power Company or GIPCo, more commonly called, at $3 million. That is
the total, and that adds up to the $13.9 million at the beginning of the vote.
CHAIR: The hon. the Member for Ferryland.
MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Why would, in the last fiscal year - there was $17.687 million budgeted, but
actually the revised amount is $4.7 million. Why would the difference there be
$13 million less than was budgeted there in that area? Could the minister give
me an explanation for that?
CHAIR: The hon. the Minister of Finance.
MS J.M. AYLWARD: Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Again this reflects, as was read in the Budget, the deferral -
MR. SULLIVAN: Deferred income.
MS J.M. AYLWARD: - of $10 million, Newfoundland and Labrador Housing
Corporation, and also the $3 million from GIPCo, which was also deferred.
CHAIR: The hon. the Member for Ferryland.
MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I understand the previous year, too, there were deferrals -
MS J.M. AYLWARD: There was. That is right.
MR. SULLIVAN: - from the previous year, and they have been going on now
for three years, I think. This is the third year of deferrals, I understand,
under the hydro one, but I think the GIPCo one, it is probably the first time
for GIPCo, is it? In my understanding, that was budgeted for last but this year
it was deferred revenue into this year.
MS J.M. AYLWARD: But it is not the first year for Newfoundland and
Labrador Housing.
MR. SULLIVAN: No, it is not. I am aware of that.
The next page, 1.3.01., Various Facilities: Appropriations here provide for
payments into sinking funds established for the purchase of various leased
facilities at the expiration of the respective lease terms.
Could the minister provide to me, that $89,500, which leased facilities, and
the amounts that are appropriated to each of these facilities?
CHAIR: The hon. the Minister of Finance.
MS J.M. AYLWARD: Thank you, Mr. Chair.
This is a thirty-year lease period that will expire in 2023. It includes the
facilities of Burgeo, Port Saunders and St. Lawrence, and to the best of my
knowledge these are annual contributions to a special fund lump sum payment. It
is not broken out individually. That is the total cost of the three of them put
into that one fund. It covers those three facilities only: St. Lawrence, Burgeo
and Port Saunders health care facilities.
CHAIR: The hon. the Member for Ferryland.
MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I am quite familiar with that one now, I might say to the minister, as the
three Trans City ones and the particular ones that went to the highest bidder as
opposed to the lowest bidder, that is normally done in a public tendering
process. I think that is being adjudicated, ruled on, and the courts have
rendered their judgment on that one.
What the minister is indicating, I gather, is that this is the money
initially now that, at the expiration of that lease, we are going to have to pay
out a certain value to buy back those facilities, where they are leased.
Initially, I didn't think there was going to be any money paid on buy back,
initially. Only about a dollar. My understanding now, and I do not have a copy
of those cases there but I do remember reading them back a few years ago, that
we are going to have to pay back probably 60 per cent, I understand, 60 per cent
of the value of those even after paying for them to have them built. That is why
we are setting this aside so that government can, over that period, set aside so
much a year so they can pay that to buy back those facilities now that we really
do not own, that we are really only leasing now. Would the minister confirm
that?
CHAIR: The hon. the Minister of Finance.
MS J.M. AYLWARD: Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Under the lease arrangements, these annual contributions, together with the
earnings and the amounts, provide about $16 million towards the purchase of the
facilities which will be completed at the end of a thirty-year lease period
which expires in 2023, so that is correct.
CHAIR: The hon. the Member for Ferryland.
MR. SULLIVAN: The minister is saying about $16 million we will have
accumulated in that fund at the end of the period? Is that what I am hearing? I
think the cost of putting them there was in the vicinity of about $28 million;
$27 million or $28 million. That would be 60 per cent. Sixty percent of $28
million would be 16.8. So I would assume the facilities that we paid for out of
public funds, basically, we are going to buy back. Because I think at the time,
one of the companies involved in that, one major insurance company, I think,
went into receivership and it had to be changed after that. I do not know all
the specifics. Really what the minister is saying now is, at the end of the day
when these leases are up, and I guess the lease should be up, the minister said
thirty years, I think, that thirty years should be up roughly, I would assume,
around 2022?
MS J.M. AYLWARD: 2023.
MR. SULLIVAN: 2023, close. So, in 2022 we are going to have to pay out
roughly $16 million and we are building up so much money per year for that
eventuality, I think the minister is saying.
I could talk about that one for a long time, Trans City. I am not sure
whether I will do it here. I will probably leave that for Budget debate there.
MS J.M. AYLWARD: I am here, whatever you want to do.
MR. SULLIVAN: I will stick to specific questions and answers in this
period and I will leave that for another day.
Under Loan Guarantees-Statutory (Except Where Specified), 1.4.01.,Guarantee
Fees-Non Statutory. Appropriations provide for fees charged private companies
and certain Crown Corporations which have debt guaranteed by the Province. It
says here; 05., Professional Services, $50,000, amount to be voted. Okay. That
is Revenue - Provincial $14,059,500, Guarantee Fees - Non-Statutory.
We are looking at, I guess in that $14,059,500 that is really revenue we are
getting for guaranteeing fees. Out of that fourteen I am assuming that a big
chunk of that, probably in the ten to twelve range, is coming from Newfoundland
and Labrador Hydro. I don't know the exact figure. The minister can give me
that, I am sure, the big percentage of that. Maybe what I will do to make it
easier, the minister can just get up and give me the amounts that we are
guaranteeing for which companies, which Crown corporations or entities, and
amounts for each one.
CHAIR: The hon. the Minister of Finance and President of Treasury Board.
MS J.M. AYLWARD: You have moved over to Professional Fees and you are
into 1.4.02. Is that correct?
MR. SULLIVAN: Yes, 1.4.01 and then underneath that, 1.4.02 really because
- well you can comment on the Professional Fees too. I would not mind knowing
the nature of them.
MS J.M. AYLWARD: Okay, I will just answer the first one first. You asked
for a listing of the $14 million.
MR. SULLIVAN: Yes, the names and how much of each.
MS J.M. AYLWARD: That includes hydro, the normal allocation, the normal
loan guaranteed fees of $14 million.
MR. SULLIVAN: Fourteen for hydro?
MS J.M. AYLWARD: Yes.
MR. SULLIVAN: Okay.
MS J.M. AYLWARD: Then there is a grouping of other corporate guarantees
of $59,500.
MR. SULLIVAN: What are some of them from?
MS J.M. AYLWARD: I would have to get you the list of those ones. I think
there is a group of smaller ones, but I would have to get them for you. I know
the bigger one, the $14 million, is Newfoundland Hydro.
MR. SULLIVAN: Are the smaller ones private companies?
MS J.M. AYLWARD: I will get you the information, if you want -
MR. SULLIVAN: If you could, I would appreciate it.
MS J.M. AYLWARD: - and then you can have the accurate information rather
than give you anything other than the facts.
MR. SULLIVAN: Okay.
MS J.M. AYLWARD: With respect to the $50,000 fees on the previous page,
the Guarantee Fees; again, this is an activity for, I guess, safeguarding the
Province's security for various loans and guarantees and often includes
availing of the services of a certain group, or groups, to hold assets or to do
the legal fees around securing -
MR. SULLIVAN: Investment dealers?
MS J.M. AYLWARD: Yes, some investment dealers. For example, this year we
actually hired Ernest and Young to seek their advice on some transitional work
on the CN Dockyard. So it is that kind of thing associated with professional
fees and the guarantees outstanding.
MR. SULLIVAN: Okay.
CHAIR: The hon. the Member for Ferryland.
MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Of course, hydro, I think is pretty public knowledge. We guaranteed the debt
there and we are getting - that is right, $14 million, if I remember, is the fee
in the Budget. I think forty-four is in deferred revenues from hydro. I think
fourteen of that fifty-eight that we took, or fifty-eight point one this year
that is deferred with hydro. Fourteen was guaranteed fees and, I think,
forty-four was - or point one was in deferred revenue, I think.
I am certainly interested, and the minister did say she would provide that.
When she does get them, which private companies - I would be interested in -
that we were guaranteeing debt and collecting on there, in that case.
While I am on that I want to ask the minister: In the ones that we are paying
a fee to guarantee the debt - I guess we certainly have a contingent liability
on those - has there been any defaults or any problems with any of these private
entities that may have cost us money to have to pay a fee?
MS J.M. AYLWARD: (Inaudible).
MR. SULLIVAN: Okay, the minister says no. I will accept that.
The next one is Issues Under Guarantee. I guess that is on Capital, the other
one was Current. Basically, this one here, "...honouring loan guarantees
extended by the Province to certain private companies," if the minister
could just - I guess it would be the same case. Would the minister have these or
is that on the Capital side of these other ones that she would not have at the
moment? If she has these, I would like to know which private companies and
amounts here that are appropriate for each one.
CHAIR: The hon. the Minister of Finance.
MS J.M. AYLWARD: I can provide that information. I think the main one
there is the Fisheries Loan Board. We haven't actually made any further
payouts at all. So, the only one was an issue under the Fisheries Loan Board.
This amount really is an allocation, inasmuch as we are able to collect.
CHAIR: The hon. the Member for Ferryland.
MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
The next one, Debt Management Expenses - Statutory, under Discounts and
Commissions. It says, "Appropriations provide for underwriting commissions
and management fees on new capital market borrowings by the Province. Discounts
and premiums on such borrowing are also reflected under this activity."
Could the minister indicate - I know last year we estimated $2.8 million for
Professional Services, we spent only $1,250,000, but this year we are budgeting
$3,675,000. Could the minister first explain why the difference in last year? I
would assume it is because the same amount of activity wasn't required. That
would be the logical - if there is something other than that, I would like you
to elaborate on it. This year, who are availing? I know at this point in time it
is possible that all the professional services may not have been identified,
because of certain transactions, but if they have, I would like to know which
ones and what amounts is it anticipated these fees will be.
CHAIR: The hon. the Minister of Finance.
MS J.M. AYLWARD: Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Just to sort of give you a bit of background for last year. There was an
amount of $200 million Canadian borrowed. That was through a ten-year debenture.
We also refinancing a maturing $100 million loan for another four years, which
also, of course, allowed us to increase Treasury Board borrowings. This was all
done in place of a long-term $400 million borrowing, because we had better rates
on the lower ones, obviously. We are still paying the same commission for that
service which is seven-tenths of 1 per cent, .7 per cent. Again, this year we
will be paying .7 per cent on the principal and we expect to complete two
issues, and both of these issues will total $525 million, with the commission
being on that, the .7 per cent. That is why you see the increase in that.
MR. SULLIVAN: Okay. Who does the Province normally deal with; or a
variety?
MS J.M. AYLWARD: A variety.
CHAIR: The hon. the Member for Ferryland.
MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Under General Expenses, 1.5.02, it says, "Appropriations provide for the
printing, legal, paying agency and various other fees associated with the
issuance, servicing and redemption of the Province's debt."
Rather than ask a whole series of separate questions, I think I will just ask
the minister if, when she is on her feet, she could elaborate on each of these,
03, 04, 05 and 06. I know budgeted last year and actual paid was the same, so I
guess the budget and the revised came out the same. This year we can see the
budget again is projecting much the same, just a little higher on Professional
Services. Could the minister elaborate on the nature of these in this Budget?
CHAIR: The hon. the Minister of Finance.
MS J.M. AYLWARD: I just have apologize. I am not quite sure of the
numbers to which you are referring but it is 1.5.02., and you wanted me to run
through 03. and 04.?
MR. SULLIVAN: That is correct.
MS J.M. AYLWARD: I think the important point here to identify is that
this
section of the Consolidated Fund is statutory so we are obliged to pay out
these amounts, as opposed to a non-statutory amount.
MR. SULLIVAN: To whom, for example?
MS J.M. AYLWARD: Transportation and Communications, which is 03., relates
to visiting, for example, when I go to visit Standard and Poors or Moody's
about our ratings and to make presentations to those groups.
Supplies, which is a $6,000 allocation here, refers to subscriptions to the
rating agency journals, which obviously we need. Also, printing, legal and
registration fees, and also routine office supplies and subscriptions, as I have
pointed out. Again, this is an statutory amount. I asked the same question
myself, why that amount would be the same, but it is statutory and we are bound
from a very long time ago, when the act was put in place, to make these; as is
the next allocation of the Debt Management Expenses in another statutory expense
associated with Professional Services. Did you come to that or do want me speak
to it?
MR. SULLIVAN: That is your total you are doing there, right?
MS J.M. AYLWARD: I am doing the total. I am doing 1.5.02.05.,
Professional Services.
MR. SULLIVAN: When you said Debt Management, the next line, that is the
total for the previous sections, right?
MS J.M. AYLWARD: Yes.
MR. SULLIVAN: The Professional Services fee of $390,900, what would be
the breakdown, paid to whom? Who would be the major ones, for example, the top
two or three?
MS J.M. AYLWARD: What this includes is paying for the agency and the
banking commissions, and the expenses of the maturing bonds. We called, as I
pointed out earlier, some bonds and coupons. Also our rating agency fees, our
Treasury and risk management opportunities and expenses relating to the transfer
agencies.
This year in 2002-2003 we have Swiss Franc Bond Issue which matures and we
have to pay the agency commission here. That is why it is a bit higher, because
obviously the commission on the Swiss Franc Bond would be higher. We did not
have one that came to maturity in 2001-2002, but because of it being due this
year there is a commission that is going to be required to be paid because it
comes due. That explains for the increase from $336,500 to $390,900.
CHAIR: The hon. the Member for Ferryland.
MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
When that one become due, Swiss S-8 Series, and there is an S-7 Series due
next year, basically is it the government's intention then not to - a goal to
avoid international market? I know we have moved our percentage of foreign debt
from about 50 per cent down to less than 30 per cent now, I think. It is gone
down considerably, which gives a little bit of stability certainly in terms of
exchange. Is it our intent to avoid borrowing, for instance, Swiss Francs? I
will use that one now because that is the one that is coming due. We have been
going to, I guess, the Canadian market and less so to the U.S. market. Is that
the intent now, or is the government open to looking at the market, because
internationally you might get a lot lower rate percentage wise but a lot of
times the currency devaluation has really hit us hard. What is the government's
outlook on these? Are they sort of turning their back on it internationally? Are
they still keeping it open as an option, depending on what the rates are?
Because we cannot predict, really, in ten years or twenty years time the
volatility and so on, and where the Canadian dollar is going to sit on the world
scheme.
CHAIR: The hon. the Minister of Finance.
MS J.M. AYLWARD: Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Right now, we have 68.6 per cent of our direct debt payable in Canadian
dollars. The answer to your question is that obviously you would look at the
markets; you would look where you would get the best rate. If we were getting a
better rate in dealing with the Swiss Franc than we are getting in a Canadian
market or in a U.S. market, we would be hard-pressed not to go and avail of
that, because our objective is to get the best rate of return so that we are
able to service our debt with as little as possible and to put that money
elsewhere. So, yes, the answer is we keep our options open but we have been
clearly going in a direction with 68.6 per cent of our borrowings out of the
Canadian markets as opposed to the U.S. and foreign markets. Obviously, that is
the direction we are going in, and the reason is not because we are committed to
the Canadian markets inasmuch as we are getting a better rate there and it just
makes good financial sense to do that.
CHAIR: The hon. the Member for Ferryland.
MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Sometimes, too, if the rates - and I am sure if experts within the department
and so on make decisions on that, if there is not a huge amount to choose it is
probably a lot better going out to a more stable situation of going to our own
markets rather than Swiss. I know the Swiss one on this one was, I think, only
3.75 per cent at the time of the S-8 Series. The S-7 Series now, a year later,
in 1991 it was 7 per cent. We can see the one now due was a five-year, 1997
term, so we can see recently, I guess, there are certainly more competitive
rates out there but there is no guarantee. If the rates are down, sometimes it
is advantageous, too, to look at the term in a more favourable sense. If you can
get a good term on a foreign, it might, in the long haul, be much cheaper for
our Province, although I am a believer in having as little risk as possible out
there. The less risk there, the more we are into our own markets. We have the
less risk out on the market. At least we know where we are going from year to
year.
The next one I will touch on is 2.1.01., and that is Contributions to Pension
Fund. It says: Appropriations provide for government matching pension
contributions and other payments under those pension plans which form part of
the Pensions Funding Act.
That is basically government's contribution to that particular plan; a
share of contributions. I guess that is pretty straightforward, isn't it? If
there is anything other than that, I would like to hear it. If not, I will just
move on. That basically, I think, seems to be pretty straightforward.
The next one, 2.1.02., Ex-Gratia and Other Payments-Non-Statutory. It says:
Appropriations provide for special retirement and other payments as approved by
Treasury Board. As required, funding will be transferred to departments during
the year.
There is $8 million there. I am assuming that we are looking at NCERP,
Northern Cod Early Retirement Program, I would think would fit in this category.
Would that be correct? This is in a separate area?
MS J.M. AYLWARD: (Inaudible).
MR. SULLIVAN: Okay. Any older workers' programs or any of these? Could
the minister just tell me which ones happen to come under this specific heading
here which amounted to around $8 million? It is going down, I guess that is
because the programs have been on the go for some time, and as people reach
retirement age of sixty-five they are starting to drop off there and our
commitment is getting lessened. I assume that is the reason for the decrease
this year.
CHAIR: The hon. the Minister of Finance.
MS J.M. AYLWARD: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
The attrition rate, I think, it is clear that some of our employees are
passing on, they are older, because of some of the programs that are covered
under this Ex-Gratia payment. The pensions that we are talking about, there is
an ex-gratia payment of $561,000 and really, this was a plan that was put in
place, basically, to cover anybody who literally fell between the cracks of all
the other pension plans over the years. Again, that number has been decreasing
for the same reason through attrition.
There is the Hartt Pension Plan and I think everybody -
MR. SULLIVAN: Pardon, which one?
MS J.M. AYLWARD: The Hartt Pension Plan, which is a pension plan
specifically for the Waterford Hospital; and NAPE members in fact, if I am not
mistaken. This was done a number of years ago in the 1980s as part of a strike
settlement. Again, you can see that -
MR. SULLIVAN: What is the amount paid under that one?
MS J.M. AYLWARD: $1.3 million.
There is a widow's pension as well, which again is declining in amount,
$245,300. There is a workers' compensation commission and this was a pension
plan that was originally put in place before the new regulations were put there.
I think there is only one person, in fact, left receiving that pension plan.
There is an amount of, I think, $26,000 associated with this amount. There is
also a redundancy pension which is under this category, and that amounts for
$1.8 million. Again, that is down from last year.
MR. SULLIVAN: Would that be included for payments for somebody to go out
early to make up the difference during those early years?
MS J.M. AYLWARD: That is part of it. I think it has been there quite
awhile. It has not been accessed for quite awhile.
MR. SULLIVAN: If they went, for example, three years earlier, that amount
would be appropriated for those years until they kicked in at the regular?
MS J.M. AYLWARD: Out of that fund, yes, that is my understanding.
MR. SULLIVAN: More like bridging the gap for that period.
MS J.M. AYLWARD: It is a bridging, yes, and you can see again that it is
declining because our pension plans are more specific now in terms of being able
to collect, and your age and years.
The last category under it is: Severance Pay Equity and Other. That amounts
for $4.1 million, and that adds up to your total of $8.1 million. Again,
overall, the total as well as many of the subcategories have declined. Mostly
for attrition reasons.
MR. SULLIVAN: So, the severance of $4.1 million would apply to severance
for whom?
MS J.M. AYLWARD: Pay equity and others. From restructuring government
agencies mostly. It is a catchall area.
CHAIR: The hon. the Member for Ferryland.
MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Is that last amount you referenced under the $4.1 million category, is that
amount less this year than last year? Is that going down also?
MS J.M. AYLWARD: No, that is the same amount that has been budgeted last
year.
MR. SULLIVAN: The next item, Mr. Chairman, Railway Pensions; I think that
is pretty self-explanatory there. That has been dropping off too, as people
reach retirement age. So I will not ask a question on that one.
Special and Other Acts: Appropriations provide for pension and other payments
under all statutory arrangements which do not form part of the Pensions Funding
Act.
Could the minister just relate which ones they are, for example, and any
amounts that could be appropriated to each?
CHAIR: The hon. the Minister of Finance.
MS J.M. AYLWARD: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
The pension payments are for the following groups: Newfoundland Broadcasting
Corporation employees; Gander Airport employees; Memorial University transferred
employees, and public officers; and all of these plans were all closed out prior
to 1967. So, this is again, an amount that has been in this budget for a long
time. All of these apply to the plans that were closed out prior to 1967. Again,
you can see there are declining amounts; less this year than last year for that
reason.
CHAIR: The hon. the Member for Ferryland.
MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
The next questions are on the final page of Consolidated Fund Services:
Province's pension liability associated with former employees of the Province
who transferred to the Federal Government in 1949.
Now that is strictly, that item only - and there is nothing else under that
and as we can see, that amount has been declining significantly. How many would
be left now - if the minister could give me a figure. How many would still be
left under this particular one?
MS J.M. AYLWARD: Well, to the best of my knowledge, it is $20,000. I
would think it is a handful at most, maybe even one or two. I am not quite sure.
I think these are, if I am not mistaken, post office workers who are availing of
this portion of this now. I am not exactly sure how many, but with a pension of
$20,000 -
MR. SULLIVAN: Not very many. Well in 1949 terms, probably a handful.
MS J.M. AYLWARD: Not very many, it might be handful.
CHAIR: The hon. the Member for Ferryland.
MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
That is basically my direct questions under the Consolidated Fund Services at
this time. I am not sure if any of my colleagues want to speak under this
particular one. I think we could probably, Mr. Chairman, move along under this
one here unless some speakers from the other side of the House, or the third and
partial party in the House here might want to have some comments.
CHAIR: Shall subheads 1.1.01 to 2.1.05 inclusive, carry?
All those in favour, aye'.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye.
CHAIR: All those against, nay'.
SOME HON. MEMBERS: Nay.
CHAIR: Carried.
On motion, subheads 1.1.01 through 2.1.05 carried.
On motion, Consolidated Fund Services, total heads, carried.
CHAIR: The hon. the Government House Leader.
MR. LUSH: We are calling Executive Council which is -
MR. SULLIVAN: You told me the Legislature.
MR. LUSH: I told you what?
MR. SULLIVAN: Consolidated Funds, Legislature, Executive Council; in that
order.
MR. LUSH: No, it is Executive Council. Do you want to do the -
MR. SULLIVAN: (Inaudible) we do not care, but I mean, that is what I told
the guys.
MR. LUSH: You did? We meant it in the other order, but it is okay. We
will do it. We said legislation?
MR. SULLIVAN: (Inaudible).
MR. LUSH: Okay. Alright, we can go to the Legislative expenditures. They
are beginning on page 56, I believe.
MR. SULLIVAN: Yes, 56; 57 anyhow.
MR. LUSH: Okay.
CHAIR: Head 1.1.01.
The hon. the Member for Cape St. Francis.
MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Chairman, I want to say a few words with respect to the Legislature and
the Estimates under the Budget this year for the Legislature. Of course, there
are a number of subheadings under the Estimates for the Legislature. I want to
say a few words, I say to the Government House Leader, first, and then probably
have a few specific questions as time goes on.
Under the Legislature there is the Office of the Auditor General itself. We
have had many instances over the past number of years, Mr. Chairman, where the
Auditor General has brought this Administration to task. Basically, one of my
pet peeves, of course, is the circumventing and not following the Public Tender
Act. That is one office that falls under the Legislature.
Also, of course, the newly appointed Office of the Citizens'
Representative, which we have been calling for, for years and years. The
Ombudsman, I suppose, he could be referred to as. I remember back in the early
1990s when the former Premier, Clyde Wells, cut out the Ombudsman. I think it
has been a wise move that this Administration listened to our calls for the past
number of years for the Citizens' Representative. Of course, the estimates for
that position and that office are here within our Estimates under the
Legislature.
The Office of the Chief Electoral Officer and its staff are covered under the
Legislature. I expect - I am not sure if the Minister of Finance or the
Government House Leader will be answering questions. The Government House
Leader. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Also, the Office of the Child and Youth Advocate falls under this heading,
under the Estimates. These Estimates, of course, Mr. Chairman, give us what was
budgeted last year, the revised budget, what was spent and the estimate for the
upcoming year.
I was in Estimates Committee meetings this morning with the Department of
Municipal and Provincial Affairs, and the Minister of Municipal and Provincial
Affairs was there, him and his staff. I must say, Mr. Chairman, that he did a
good job in answering the questions. Some of the answers I probably didn't
agree with, but at least we got some answers, more so than we normally get from
the Members in the House of Assembly or the ministers in the House of Assembly
when we ask them questions, and particularly, of course, the Premier who very
seldom answers questions, who is very good at skating around issues.
The Legislature itself, Madam Chair, covers the heading, Administrative
Support, House Operations, Standing and Select Committees, Hansard and the
Legislative Library. Of course, all of these sections are very important to the
efficient running of the Legislature, the House of Assembly as we refer to it in
Newfoundland and Labrador. I do have some questions - and I will get to those in
a little while - to the Government House Leader. I am sure he will be able to
answer them.
Madam Chair, we have forty-eight districts in the Province of Newfoundland
and Labrador, and there has been some question over the years as to how many
seats should be there, to represent the people of the Province of Newfoundland
and Labrador. The former, former, former Premier, Clyde Wells, had a commission
put in place some ten years ago, and I think the present Premier was talking
about putting a commission in place to have a look at the number of seats in the
Province of Newfoundland and Labrador.
I probably did not know myself, before I got into politics, what an MHA does.
We are all different. We all have different seats. We have rural seats, we some
urban/rural seat combinations, and we have urban seats. Every district is
different. I can account for the Member for Baie Verte and the Member for
Bonavista South and the calls that they get on all-ranging issues. I have many,
many issues in my district. It seems to me that sometimes the further from the
urban districts you go, from the urban centers, to rural Newfoundland, you get
more and more calls. I can apply that in my very own district. Some of the stuff
that we do for the people out there, they probably don't know, and sometimes
we are questioned. We all get tarred with the same brush, I suppose, that we are
paying the politicians the big dollars and they do nothing. That is not quite
accurate, I can say. Every politician is different. Some apply themselves more
than others. It is like in any profession; you have good and bad. Like any
profession, you have good and bad. You have good and bad lawyers, you have good
and bad doctors, you have good and bad teachers, you have good and bad police
officers, I suppose, and what have you.
On the whole, most people in this House of Assembly, I will say right here
now, and I don't mind saying it, are - what would be the right word? -
dedicated to their districts and they do their best. I think most MHAs do their
best.
AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).
MR. J. BYRNE: I think the people on the other side are agreeing with me.
Of course, I don't see why they wouldn't on that issue. They do their best.
We get many, many calls. Some of the stuff that we do - I do a number of UI
appeals.
AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).
MR. J. BYRNE: EI now, but we used to call them UI then. EI appeals,
Canada Pension appeals, workers' compensation appeals, social services
appeals, land issues, all these various issues that we deal with.
Personally, some politicians and people think that these big issues that you
get, you might get a new school in your district or get some road work done, but
I think, in my personal view, the most satisfaction I get is when I do something
for an individual. If I do an EI appeal and win it for someone and we find out a
short time after, or we do a Canada Pension appeal. These things directly impact
upon people's lives, and the people out there appreciate that.
All of us, I am sure we all do it, on this side and on that side of the
House, do these things for the individuals in our district. I think they
appreciate it and we all get personal satisfaction out of that.
As I said, there are some forty-eight seats in this Province of Newfoundland
and Labrador. The seat of the Minister of Municipal and Provincial Affairs, down
on the South Coast, geographically, I would say, is a nightmare. The Member for
Baie Verte, his district, thirty-six communities, I think.
AN HON. MEMBER: Thirty-three.
MR. J. BYRNE: Thirty-three communities in his district. Bonavista South
and others across the Province, just to visit those communities alone can take
days, and we hear stories about them. In my district alone, I have five towns
and a part of the City of St. John's. Volunteer Fire Departments, different
organizations, we all attend those functions all the time.
I just wanted to say that up front, so some people would understand the
workings of the House of Assembly and what we do for our money. Plus the fact
that the work of the House of Assembly itself - there are some people, I am
sure, out there and they look at the House of Assembly. Question Period can be
very robust, I suppose. It can be very loud and we can all get a bit aggressive
on this side of the House and that side of the House when we are answering
questions or asking questions; but the workings of the House of Assembly, the
stuff like the critic for Finance was up the past two days, the day before
yesterday and the day before that, responding to the Budget, two hours or
two-and-a-half hours responding to the Budget, is very tedious work. No doubt
about that, it is very tedious, but he is doing a good job. He takes his job
very seriously, to ask the questions, to respond and to point out what needs to
be pointed out to government where we feel, on this side of the House, they are
not doing properly.
One of the things, of course, that we said the past number of years, when I
was the Finance critic, of course, one of my main issues was the abuse of the
special warrants and trying to manipulate special warrants to affect the bottom
line of the Budget to show we had a deficit or a balanced Budget, whatever the
case maybe. It has been abused. The Auditor General has said that, no question
about that, and that has been confirmed. We hope that this Administration will
finally learn that it is not the thing to be doing.
We talked about the deficit. The Auditor General has confirmed, over the past
three years, we have it there, each year - one year it was $22 million that the
government was saying in the Budget that it was a deficit of $22 million. In
actual fact it was over $200 million. The next year they said it was $33
million. We said the deficit was over $300 million and, of course, it was
confirmed by the Auditor General and confirmed by the government's own
auditors in the fall of the year. This year, the Minister of Finance has put a
Budget forward and said that the deficit this year is going to be some $93
million. In reality it is going to be over $400 million. The Auditor General
will - I do not know if there is a new Auditor General appointed yet - the
Auditor General will confirm that. I am sure it will be over $400 million, and
the government's own auditors will confirm that, in the fall of the year I
would say to you, Madam Chair.
Now, with respect to certain specifics in the subheads, under 1.1.01
Administrative Support, I say to the Government House Leader, on page 57, we
have 05. Professional Services. You had $100,000 budgeted, $45,000 spent last
year, and it is back up to $160,000 this year. Does the Government House Leader
want to comment on that, why the difference?
MR. LUSH: That is 05. Professional Services.
Madam Chair, the $100,000 that was budgeted in 2001-2002 and only $45,000
spent and then this year with a budget of $160,000, that was for furnishing for
the Library, the Legislative Library, and it was not done. It was scheduled to
be done in 2001-2002 but it was not done, so the savings were taken from there
and put into 2002 so we now have an expenditure of $160,000. It is for shelving,
furniture, in the Legislative Library.
MADAM CHAIR (Ms Hodder): The hon. the Member for Cape St. Francis.
MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you, Madam Chair.
In the next subhead 06. Purchased Services, you had $400,000 budgeted, you
spent $400,000, and this year you have $300,000 budgeted. Would you want to
address that $100,000 difference?
MADAM CHAIR: The hon. the Government House Leader.
MR. LUSH: Madam Chair, that is a result of decreases in that area to
accommodate the government's decreases for departments, so there is a decrease
in that particular department in Purchased Services to try and meet the Budget
requirements.
MADAM CHAIR: The hon. the Member for Cape St. Francis.
MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you, Madam Chair.
The Government House Leader, would he be able to respond at this point in
time? It is only this past year, I think it was in January, that we started
televising the House.
AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).
MR. J. BYRNE: February?
AN HON. MEMBER: Last fall.
MR. J. BYRNE: Last fall.
Could the minister now tell us, at this point in time, the actual cost of the
renovations to be able to televise the House, the cost of the cameras, the total
cost, and also the cost of - actually, the satellite cost, I suppose. Is there a
cost there for satellite hookups? And, are there any plans to - I do not know if
people out there want to know this or see this. When we sit late in the
evenings, of course, sometimes it is televised and sometimes it is not. I think
you have to book the satellite time, to look at when the House closes, say, 5:00
p.m. or 5:30 p.m., whatever the case may be. I have heard this from some people,
believe it or not: Why is it that we do not replay it in the evenings, or
whatever the case may be? Can you address the cost involved so far, the
satellite time, and that issue?
MADAM CHAIR: The hon. the Government House Leader.
MR. LUSH: I will get to the simple question first, on the cost. The total
cost for getting ready for televising, getting the furniture, the entire
equipment, comes to about $2 million. That is the figure that we have been given
for the cost of providing television feed.
The other question with respect to replay, replaying what you are now seeing
playing in the evenings to a larger audience, to the people who work and cannot
view this very important and interesting activity, we would like to do it in the
evening, but I can only say to the hon. member that it is not being contemplated
yet. We have not made any provision in the Budget for it, but maybe with
requests coming from him and other people we will have to look at it to see what
we will do in the future. The short answer is, we haven't made any decision at
the moment. We have not contemplated doing it.
MADAM CHAIR: The hon. the Member for Cape St. Francis.
MR. J. BYRNE: The Government House Leader made a statement that it is
very important and interesting, the stuff that is happening in the House of
Assembly. I don't know about the interesting part but it is very important, I
agree.
He didn't answer the question with respect to - I am not sure if I was
clear on it - the satellite cost budgeted this year to cover the cost of the
House of Assembly to be on TV . Is it a per hour cost, a contract, or whatever
the case may be?
MADAM CHAIR: The hon. the Government House Leader.
MR. LUSH: If the hon. member is asking what it costs to televise the
House, it costs $300 an hour. That is via the satellite, yes. I am assuming that
people understand that is how we are televised. Sending the signal to satellite
and sending it right throughout the Province of Newfoundland and L