Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 99 (30th Legislature, 3rd Session)

30-3-99

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 8 p.m., Tuesday, May 4th, 1976 SUPPLY - EDU CATION MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 48(a) - the Honourable Member for Roblin. 3329 MR. J. WALLY McKENZIE (Roblin): Mr. Chairman, I'd like to refer rather briefly to the new Provincial Municipal Tax Sharing Act which the First Minister announced in his Budget Address and try and ascertain through that very brief statement of the Minister's, if in fact, that we can solve some of the serious problems of financing the school divisions in the rural area.

I'll give you a quick classic example of one that con cerns me and that's Dauphin, Ochre River, where it is my understanding that they have had to go to the bank and borrow some $600, 000, $700,000 at 10 ! percent interest, and they don't get their first payment under the grant structure of this government until the lst of May.

The next question I'd like to raise to the Minister, how many more school divisions in this province are facing that same most difficult problem having to borrow tax dollars at inflated interest rates, 10!, 11, 12 percent --(Interjection)-- 10! was the Dauphin one --(Inte rjection)-- Well, I'm asking the Minister, there may be some that had to pay 11 because as you well know interest rates, and maybe the former Finance Minister can solve my - and I may not have to even speak on this subject matter. But it is one of concern.

I'd like to know how many school divisions have this problem and. is concerned, and it is my understanding of speaking to these school divisions as of the lst of May they will get their first cheque from the Minister. I think if my memory tells me, it will be about $250,000, then the tax dollars will start flowing in from the municipalities and they will have to • • • But on the other hand, I also hear of municipalities that are having to borrow at excessive rates of interest to pay these levies which are given across to them. And Mr. Chairman, it brings me back to the statement of the Member for St.

Johns and the Member for Inkster who last night said in this Chamber, that as of now the school boards and the municipalities of this province shall have to go and get their dollars wherever they want. We are not interested in them, we want no part of them and we are going to do everything possible to destroy them, we're going to set them up as straw men and knock them down. --(In terjection)-- Well, let the record speak for itself. But I listened to the Member for St. Johns last night and I listened to the Member for Inkster and, Mr.

Chairman, all I want to have on the record of this debate is for some informa tion for me to take back to the school divisions of my constituency and to the municipali ties - and luckily the First Minister's in the House tonight - and I'd like him to spell out, he's the First Minister, he's the Finance Minister, what are you going to do? Are you agreeing with the Minister of Mines and the Member for St. Johns who said in this House last night that municipalities and the school divisions are no longer creatures of this government?

They are no longer under the Act of this government, they can go and shift for their own tax dollars wherever they want. order. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for St. Johns state his point of MR. CHERNIACK: A matter of privilege, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: State your matter of privilege. MR. CHERNIACK: I said the honourable member is distorting any statements made yesterday to such an extent that it's bordering on the untruth. --(Interjection)- Absolutely. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Roblin. MR. McKENZIE: Well, Mr. Chairman, the record will speak for itself. The record will speak for itself.

But over the course of last night to today, I've made some phone calls to the municipalities in my constituency and to the school boards, and I tried to espouse to them what was said in this House last night on this debate on a very im portant matter, a very important matter, especially when the First Minister has said in his Budget that there is a new Municipal Tax Sharing Act. Now I'd like the Minister of Education or the First Minister to fill me in or the people that I represent, where are

3330 May 4, 1976 SUPPLY - EDUCATION (MR. McKENZIE cont'd) • we going? The municipalities and the school divisions were created by

an Act of this Legislature, they're creatures of this province, they're creatures of this government, and I defy the First Minister or the Minister of Education or the Member for St. Johns or the Member for Inkster to stand up and say, as of now we want no part of them. We'll destroy them, we'll do whatever we can, we'll use our own tax incentive measures. We'll create ••• Well, the First Minister laughs. --(Interjection)-- Yes, it is ridiculous. But you read the Hansard and the statements that were made in this House last night on this very subject matter.

So I ask, what kind of interest rates are being paid by school divisions on bor rowed capital? Why can't you create with all the surplus dollars that you've got and we went through the Estimates and the surplus moneys that are flowing in due to inflated tax dollars, why do school divisions have to go and borrow - Dauphin-Ochre River, $600,000 at 10! percent. That's taxpayers' dollars, that's not your money or mine, that's taxpayerE dollars. The system has got to be wrong. --(Interjection)-- Well, sure, the Urban Affairs Minister can speak like he wants on the subject.

Why do they have to do that in this day and age? Surely with all the computers, the staff that we have --(Interjection)-- That's right. And then after the 1st of July certainly, the flow comes in from the municipalities on the ••. --(Interjection)-- No, I'm not, not at all, but I'm suggesting that surely there's a better way and as we progresE my gosh, we don't have to live with the archaic ways of 30 or 40 years ago, and the Firs Minister knows that. I'm just asking, surely there is a better way.

Now may I ask the Minister of Education, how many school divisions had to borrow in the last four or five months to carry them over to the 1st of May or even to the 1st of June or July, and what interest rates did they have to pay? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for St. Johns. MR. CHERNIACK: Mr. Chairman, I'm sorry to interject, but it is a terrible thing to fall into the mouth of a person whp may or may not have been present during the very recent debate, but distorts it so that it is unmannerly of him and verging on the in decent. Mr.

Chairman, he said several times today that he also reported into his con stituency that the Honourable Minister of Mines and I said that we were, as of now, through with the municipalities and school boards and about to destroy them. He quoted us as saying that, Mr. Chairman. Now Mr. Chairman, that is such a distortion, such an absolute distortio n that I am having diff iculty controlling my temper, and I am controlling it, but, Mr. Chairman, really it is a pretty awful thing to fall into that kind of a filthy debate that has been suggested.

I've been around for awhile, longer than the honourable member who just spoke, and I don't really think that the way he spoke - that is a distortion. The absolute mis quoting, deliberate because he repeated it, is something that makes one shrink when one has to be on the record and he said, let the record speak for itself, but, Mr. Chairman, there are other members in the House today who were present when we spoke yesterday. And I know that the Honourable Member for Brandon West was one of them, and I think the Member for Fort Rouge was one of them. I don't know who else was.

But I would like to know whether there are other members in this House who would confirm the state ment made by the Honourable Member for Roblin. Mr. Chairman, there was a time when the municipalities paid to the school boards their moneys, I think it was twice a year, I think it was back in - well I forget the months that they paid them.

And after some discussion, and I remember when we were in opposition, we figured out the kinds of money that the Provincial Government and the municipalities were sitting with and not sending them on to the school boards, that we changed the law on this side, providing for more frequent payments.

Let us bear in mind the fiscal year of this province is April 1st; let us bear in mind that pretty soon the municipalities will be sending out their bills, and when those bills go out and the money starts flowing in that there will be a surplus; let us bear in mind that when the surplus arrives it will be invested at short-term interest rates, it will be earning money for the institutions that the municipalities and the school boards had s' s, t

May 4, 1976 3331 SUPPLY - EDUCATION (\ffi. CHERNIACK cont'd) • received them, and why it is that one has to create this balance is really an unnecessary discussion, it is taxpayers' dollars no matter which dollars change hands. It is taxpayers' dollars whether it's in the provincial coffers, federal coffers, municipal coffers, school board coffers and to make this kind of accusa tion and talk in terms of 12 percent is such errant nonsense, I only wish that the member would tell the truth when he informs his constituents of what is going on here, so they will know the kind of service he gives them. MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Education. MR. HANUSCHAK: Mr. Chairman, listening to the Honourable Member for Roblin, it brings to mind a comment made by a member in this House a number of years ago, many years prior to the time that the Honourable Member for Roblin was elected to re present his constituency, and at that time one member said to another, that if the honour able member had the brains of an enema, it wouldn't be sufficient to physic a flea. MR. McKENZIE: What does that prove? MR. HANUSCHAK: Well, I'll let the Honourable Member for Roblin figure that one out for himself what that proves.

I want to draw it to the honourable member's attention the fact that over the past year or two, as the Honourable Member for St. Johns pointed out, we have been cognizant of the fact that there were periods of time during which municipalities would have a surplus of money.

But the school divisions, even during the days of your government when that occurred because that was what we corrected when we became the government; when we changed the dates of payment from the Public Schools' Finance Board; when at the present time there are spring term advances being paid in April, May, June and July, being mindful of the fact that the school divisions may be strapped for funds; when we give the school divisions their fall term grant in March; when we passed a regulation making it mandatory that the special levies be paid 20 percent on July 31st, 20 percent on September 30th, 20 percent on November 30th and the balance of 40 percent on January 31st, so, Mr.

Chairman, we have been mindful of that fact and we have corrected it. We have corrected it to the extent to which we and the municipalities can keep pace with the cash flow to turn over the due share of the school divisions' funds to them. Now when the Honourable Member for Roblin speaks of excessively high interest rates that school divisions have to pay, this really surprises me, Mr. Chairman, because to the best of my knowledge, all school divisions in the Province of Manitoba can borrow moneys from any lending institution in the province at prime interest rates. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Roblin.

MR. McKENZIE: Well, Mr. Chairman, I do thank the Minister and the Member for St. Johns for their comments on this subject matter and it's a very important one, and I'm sure that the record will speak for itself and we'll carry on. I'm reading now from a recent issue of the Dauphin Herald of a recent school meeting that was held in Dauphin, and this was mailed to me, and it was asked that I raise it during the Estimates of the Minister, and I'll read it for the record, and for the Minister to understand that and the Member for St. Johns to understand what I'm talking about.

"The Dauphin-Ochre Area Board has been operating on borrowed money since the beginning of the year. No Provincial Government grants towards education have yet been received." I'll table this document if the Minister wants it. "Secretary Treasurer, Jack Hrehirchuk reported to the board meeting Monday, that bank borrowings now stand at $662,00011 - and this is May - "on which the interest rate is 10;! percent." A MEMBER: What's the date of that article? MR. McKENZIE: April the 26th.

"Payments of salaries ••• employees, and other expenses, must be met, even though we have not received any moneys, said the Secretary Treasurer. He added that beginning May 1st, and continuing for four months, the area would receive $215, 000 each month from the Provincial Government, and the special levied money from the municipalities would begin to flow in July." Now, Mr. Ch airman, I think that's a legitimate question that I raised. How many :>ther school divisions are in the same problem with Dauphin -Ochre?

How many school iivisions in this province, of them all, are borrowing and what kind of moneys are they )Orrowing, and what interest rates are they paying? S t s o d b

3332 May 4, 1976 SUPPLY - EDUCATION MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR. HANUSCHAK: Well, Mr. Chairman, if there is a problem • MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please. The Honourable Member for Swan River. MR. JAMES H. BILTON (Swan River): Mr. Chairman, I en ter this debate with trepidation, and I was rather concerned that the Honourable Member for St. Johns sort of lost his temper tonight, it's not normal. And he referred to my colleague as making som� filthy remarks, and I think that's below his dignity.--(Interjection)--Your dignity, Sir.

I have respect for you and I suggest that it's below your dignity to use that kind of language in this House. However, I think what my colleague was attempting to do, and I'm sure the Minister and I'm sure the government, I'm sure we all have been concerned over the year1 that the school boards have to borrow money. They have to borrow money to carry on am pay their wages, and pay for the general support of the schools.

Well I believe the gover1 ment is in the better position to borrow on behalf of the school boards, and I think this is the only point that my colleague was trying to make in his own way and in his own lan. guage. It was to try and eliminate --(Interjection)-- You'll never lmow. But to try and eliminate, Mr. Minister, this situation between what you collect and what you pay out, and what the school boards have to pay out in the meantime, that's all he was trying to do.

And all the school boards throughout Manitoba in recent years - I've heard it and I'm sure the Minister's heard it, I'm sure the Premier's heard it fro m time to time - that there is a delay, that after your officials approve the school board's budget for the year, as to when the cheque comes to them, and you lmow as well as I do, Mr. Minister, - I'm talking very much as a layman, I'm not an expert in this - you know as well as I do, what you tell them you're going to pay them.

The differ ence between what you're going to pay them is they go to the local councils and the local councils have no other alternativ e but to tax the local .property owners to make up the balance. --(Interjection)-- Just a minute. And the local taxpayer meets his bill, meets his taxation, but there is that delay between what you'll allow them and what you're going to pay them, that they have to go and borrow money in order to pay the people that they hire.

And all my colleague from Roblin is asking of the Minister and of the govern ment is to make that area between what they ask for and what you're going to pay them much closer so that they don't have to go and borrow money. Because the local taxpayer, not only has to pay what he's assessed, but he also has to pay the interest on the money that the province owes and has approved that school division, and why you delay in deliver· ing that money is the point my honourable friend was trying to make and that's all. That': all. Can you do something about it? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Education. MR.

HANUSCHAK: Mr. Chairman, if there was some delay in the mails, then I don't lmow how the Honourable Member for Roblin can hold us accountable for that, but I want to assure the honourable member that the April advance to the Dauphin-Ochre School District, I will repeat this very slowly because I see that the honourable member is making notes because he wants to inform his constituents, the April advance was mailed to it in the sum of somewhere in the order of $290, 000 on or about April 26th. The fall term grant was paid on March 31st and surely, Mr.

Chairman, the Board is aware of the regulations which have been passed by this government, under which we operate, which make it mandatory that the fall term grant be paid by that date. Again, I could only re peat to the honourable member if there was some foul-up in the mails, then there's really no problem for the school division to get in touch with my department, pick up the phone, write us a letter, spend eight cents on a stamp and say we haven't received our March 32st cheque - where is it? It's as simple as all that.

And the 1975 adjustment, the final adjustment on the grants will be paid when their financial report for the year-end is filed with us. MR. McKENZIE: Mr. Chairman, I thank the Honourable Minister for his com ments and I do recognize that the mail service is not as good as it used to be and I think it's fair ball to say that a cheque that left his office on April 26th would likely arriv' e s d n- - s e

May 4, 1976 3333 SUPPLY - EDUCATION (MR. McKENZIE cont'd) • in Dauphin about May 1st, which is what I said. But Mr. Chairman, that was not the question that I raised, the question that I raised and the information I'd like, how many school divisions have had to borrow money and what interest rates did they have to borrow it at to carry them from January 1st to May 1st? MR. HANUSCHAK: Mr. Chairman, I answered that question when I said that every school division can borrow money at prime interest rates, prime interest rates, whatever they may be on any given day, which vary from time to time, Mr.

Chairman, but they're the best interest rates and school divisions can borrow money at those rates. And really, Mr. Chairman, I cannot understand why Dauphin-Ochre School Division can not borrow money at those rates, in fact, I do believe that it does borrow money at prime interest rates. But I think that the problem lies with the Honourable Member for Roblin, he doesn't understand that. MR. McKENZIE: I'll try once again, Mr.

Chairman, and members of the com mittee, to ask the Honourable Minister who has a tremendous staff and he's asking us to spend, to approve a budget of several millions of dollars, does he know or does his department know how many school divisions in this province had to borrow money for the period January 1st to May 1st and what interest rates they had to pay? Now if he doesn't have that information and he has no access to those figures, then let him stand up and say so.

But I suspect that as the Minister of Education for this province he should know that that's a serious problem and if that's the archaic system that we have to live under today with this government fine, because we're going to move them out within a year or a year and a half, and I guarantee we'll change that system real quick where those school divi sions will not have to go out and borrow money - Dauphin-Ochre $662,000 at 10! percent.

It's the most crude, archaic system; it's unbelievable in this day and age, with this govern ment that made all the promises which the Member for Brandon wrote into the record last night, and all the staff that they've got, that this Minister can't stand up and tell me how many school divisions in this Province of Manitoba had to borrow money for the period from January 1st to May 1st, 1976 and what interest rates they had to pay. Now if he doesn't have that information, that's fine, I thank him. MR. HANUSCHAK: Yes, Mr. Chairman, I do have that information.

All school divisions may have at some time or another during that period of time, for longer or shorter periods of time, have had to borrow money and I'm quite satisfied, Mr. Chairman, that all of them borrowed money at prime interest rates, at the same rate that the Pro vince of Manitoba pays when it has to borrow money. MR . McKENZIE: Well, Mr. Chairman, then I guess we in the opposition are not entitled to those figures or those estimates of what is taking place in the Department of Education, and with that I'll sit down. MR. HANUSCHAK: Mr.

Chairman, the honourable member could check the annual report which lists all the school divisions, and that would indicate to him the number of school divisions that may have had to borrow funds at some time or another for a longer or a shorter period of time. Now, Mr.

Chairman, the honourable member wants that information as of when - May 1st - and the amounts, the overdrafts the school divisions may have carried most likely would have varied from day to day and today is May 4th, three days after May 1st, and the honourable member expects me, right now, to contact all the school divisions at 8:30 in the evening and during the course of this debate get him a precise answer as to the exact amount the school divisions have had to pay by way of interest on their overdraft for the period commencing January 1st of 1976 and ending May 1st of this year. MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MR. AXWORTHY: Well, Mr. Speaker • • • the Minister a dime for a }ilone call to the Winnipeg School Division, but I indicate that last year all the school divisions in Greater Winnipeg borrowed money and it came to $6 million, which is an awful lot of money to be spending on interest rates to a bank I'd expect, particularly, Mr. Chairman, when previously many of the school divisions had reserve funds that were taken over during the time of Unicity and were in fact being used at that time to do the bridge financing on operating costs. It would seem to me, Mr.

Chairman, to do the bridge financing --(Inter jection)-- That's right, and if you'd like to talk to the members who represent the St.

3334 May 4, 1976 SUPPLY - EDUCATION (MR. AXWORTHY cont'd) • • . James area, you'd realize how much money was taken over at that point. They had a reserve fund. --(Interjection)-- Oh, yes they did. Well, I just say I wouldn't want the government to spend any more money than necessary, so that I hope would save the Minister at least a few cents for a phone call for that information within the Greater Winnipeg area.

But it does indicate, I think, a problem that is not only in Ochre River but probably every school division and the total amount that was paid in interest rates was $6 million last year, so that would pay the salaries of a lot of school teachers. --(Interjection)-- They were taken over at the time of Unicity and absorbed. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Urban Affairs on a point of order. HON. SAUL A. MILLER (Minister for Urban Affairs)(Seven Oaks): I think be fore it goes too far, Mr.

Chairman, I think it should be noted that at no time were school board funds taken over by any of the municipalities or the one municipality that came into being in 1972. MR. AXWORTHY: Mr. Chairman, I said that there were reserve funds available for example in the St. James-Assiniboia area that were available to the school board at that time to do their bridge financing of operation costs so that they did not go into the banks and as a result that they were able to provide a way of offsetting their fairly high interest rates that are now being paid because of inflation.

It would seem to me that comparable to other kinds of operations that it would be possible to set up a reserve fund, a revolving fund in order to overcome that particular problem in the financing of schools. It's obviously going to continue happening and it is a problem of cash flow and it would seem to be simply a matter of sort of developing a reserve fund to compensate for those kinds of interim financing requirements. Now if the government doesn't want to do that, that's its business, but that seems to be a solution to a problem that they might look at. Mr.

Chairman, I did want to come back to the Minister's statements this after noon which were halfway aborted. He never quite finished explaining what or how the government was going to provide for the financing of the special needs programs under Bill 58, and considering the fact that the potential cost of such a program, if it's done properly, would amount not to millions of dollars, but probably tens of millions of dollars, it would be of some interest I'm sure to this House to get something more of an explana tion from the Minister.

All we really received from him was the indication that he is proceeding in a logical, clear, forthright sequence of steps which from the very source from which it comes makes that questionable, but I would suggest that rather than being clear and logical in its progression, in fact has been very fitful, uncertain and totally without direction in terms of developing a program for special needs.

I would suggest that the advisory committee that he set up last fall has prepared certain reports, none of which have been responded to, there has not been --(Interjection)-- Well, if he started at twenty-five after four, then I'm presuming he might have had the privilege of standing up to continue those remarks rather than ignoring them. I think that that is --(Interjection)-- MR. HANUSCHAK: • 4:30 went to Private Members' Bill, according to the rules of this House. much. MR. AXWORTHY: Mr. Chairman, I think that the Minister doth protest too MR . CHAIRMAN: direct remarks to the Chair, not ••• MR.

AXWORTHY: Yes, Mr. Chairman, I'm quite happy, very happy to carry on.

The point that we're trying to make is that last year in this Legislature we passed Bill 58, I think probably under somewhat false pretences, that we were not given any indication of what was going to be involved in the implementation of that bill in terms of the kind of major reorganizing that would have to go on within the school divisions to supply the necessary teachers, the class sizes, }Xtysical alterations, and all the other kinds of major activities that would have to be undertaken in order to provide for even a basic implementation of mainstreaming exceptional children, children with different kinds of disabilities and handicaps, into the ordinary class structure, In those areas of certain schools that have tried, to some limited degree, to mainstream handicapped children or gifted children in some cases and those with disabilities, they find that it brings on an enormous change in the classroom procedure, does require a very heavy introduction of

May 4, 1976 3335 SUPPLY - EDUCATION (MR. AXWORTHY cont'd) • • additional resources, and creates a very strong pressure upon the classroom teachers themselves, and without any kind of resources or assistance, that classroom teacher is oftentimes in an untenable position.

And that when we talk about the mainstreaming program, it's obviously going to be something that will require a very massive effort and a major commitment by this province to do the job properly, and I indicated this afternoon some of the kinds of financial resources that were involved when certain American Schools Systems tried it to the point where school budgets would almost double in a matter of two or three years. So, Mr.

Chairman, it is an issue that really begs some very serious answers and at this stage they have not been forthcoming, and I would suggest that the procedures that have been followed thus far leave an awful lot to be desired. There has not been much consultation going on with those schools in which cer tain amounts of integration of children with learning disabilities or physical disabilities have been tried, there has not been that consultation going on. The classroom teacher is disturbed and uncertain about what is going to take place, and so are the school principals.

They are simply again fearful of the same kind of trick that was played in the past, time and time again when the Province of Manitoba, and the Department of Education announces a program, it becomes Mr. Nice-guy to everybody and shows that they are prepared to undertake a major reform in the school system and then they're not prepared to put the bucks up to pay for it, and simply allow the thing then to kind of fend for itself, get the tag end of the resources and never really get the full kind of support and commitment that it needs. And, Mr.

Chairman, to suggest at this stage that a $2, 000 planning grant per division is in any way enough to provide for proper planning, I mean, I don't know what the Minister thinks $2,000 gets him these days.

But when you come down to, first having to access the wide range of needs, special needs in the community, you know, people with physical handicaps, emotional handicaps, or learning disabilities, gifted child ren, exceptional children, there is such a wide range of those kinds of needs, that even the initial screening and assessment takes far more than that sort of measly $2,000; and when you say $2, 000, I assume that for a school division that has 30, 000 children, it gets the same amount as one that has 3,000 children in it.

So that to talk about planning on that kind of basis is not planning at all, it's a fitful gesture and a gesture towards a problem that begs an awful lot more serious commitment. So, Mr. Chairman, I simply say that I don't think there is planning going on.

I think for the Minister to suggest that planning is going on is simply wrong and as a result we have created sets of expectations on the parts of parents, of children who have certain kinds of learning problems - physical or otherwise - they have those expectations set up, a bill was passed with a fair degree of fanfare last spring and now we can't deliver, we can't deliver because we don't even know what it's going to cost us. We don't know what's going to be in the school budgets next year to begin, we don't know what the timing is going to be and the Minister says well we're going to phase this thing in.

Well surely to goodness, Mr. Chairman, we must have some idea, the Department of Educ ation must have some idea in mind of what it's trying to do. It can't be so totally passive and permissive as though somehow this $2,000 planning grant is going to be the manana that solves all the problems and the school division will come forward with full-blown plans for next fall and say now here's how we start. Mr.

Chairman, the thing that I objected to so strongly is that the Department of Education undertook a program for which it was not prepared, prepared neither in terms of planning properly, it was not prepared in terms of the resources it was going to make available, and certainly it was not prepared to be forthright with the public and the parents who are going to be desperately involved and with the teachers and school administrators who are going to have to implement this program. So as a result, Mr.

Chairman, at this stage, this very important program, a program which has as much to do with civil rights as it has to do with education is really being proceeded with in a vague foggy kind of way, and I think that it is very important, at least at this stage, during the consideration of these particular Estimates that the Minister describe and designate what kind of fiscal resources the government is prepared to commit to the initial stages and what are we looking at over next year and the year following, what kind of increases are we going to

3336 May 4, 1976 SUPPLY - EDUCATION (MR. AXWORTIIY cont'd) • be prepared for and what kind and to what degree is the Foundation Program going to reorganize its formula to take into account these prob lems. Is it going to be on a grant basis, i.3 it going to be part of the Foundation Pro gram, in other words there's a number of important fiscal questions that should be answer ed in order for the school boards to do their proper planning. Because until they know what kind of money they have to pay for what kind of teachers, they can't plan.

If they've been given no parameters within which to plan, it's not planning. You have to know what kind of character you have to deal with and that has not simply happened. The Minister, in fact, is almost honour bound, considering that legislation was passed, passed on his recommendation, I would say, and I think the rest of us share a responsibility for, in a sense, allowing that bill to go through as unexamined as we did, perhaps not asking tough enough questions about it.

I think the Minister is now honour bound to be much more specific and clear in the kind of resources that the department will be offering to the school boards above the grant, what kind of time frame he sees it taking place in, so that they can then start doing their planning with some basic criteria in mind, and some time scale on order. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Education. MR. HANUSCHAK: You !mow, Mr.

Chairman, you may recall having heard very much the same speech from the Honourable Member for Fort Rouge sometime after 4 o'clock this afternoon which ended at about 4:25, at which time I had risen to my feet to commence responding to it. Now, of course, all the honourable member need have said in demonstrating his concern to the House about this issue is simply - if he wished to, he didn't have to, but if he wished to - to remind me that he had posed the questions which he did this afternoon, and he would like the answers to them. Instead he chose to repeat his speech. Now, that's his privilege.

And it so happened that at the stroke of your gavel, Mr. Chairman, at 4:30, that I had reached the $2,000 per school planning grant, so the Honourable Member for Fort Rouge assumed that that's it, that's the end, that's all that's available, $2,000 per school division, and he goes into a lengthy oration now on that basis. Well, Mr. Chairman, if I may continue from where I left off at 4:30, in re sponse to the honourable member, and point out to him that the very issues and concerns that he appears to be so concerned about are the issues and concerns that we are well aware of and have made provision for.

If the Honourable Member for Fort Rouge would care to listen.

I did mention this afternoon that to deal with the matter of special needs of students and to devise programs that would be suitable for their particular purposes, it's not just a question of or a matter of drawing a figure out of a hat which would indicate the number of dollars that a government would include in its· estimates and say to the school division, here you are, here are X millions of dollars, go ahead and plan a special needs program for the hard of hearing, for the visually handicapped, the multiply handicapped, the physically handicapped, emotionally disturbed, what have you, that it's not as simple as all that.

The school division, the school boards the trustees, the teachers, superintendents, recognize that fact, Mr. Chairman, they have been working very closely with my department over the last while in designing a program. And if the honourable member has forgotten I will repeat it again for his benefit, if all other members remember, but I will repeat it for him; that that was the prime reason why that

section of the legislation was not proclaimed upon the receipt of Royal Assent because we knew that the school divisions in the Province of Manitoba were not prepared as of a year ago to there and then immediately deliver a special needs program to the children within the school division, that it did require planning preparation and design prior to its being implemented.

And I did indicate to the honourable member that the working group set out with the preparation of a statement of intent defining the goals and objectives of such a program, because the honourable member is quite right, that it is a very expensive program, a very expensive program, and what we want to design is something that we could live with, something within our means, and at the same time will do that job that we want the program to do. So that being so, that brought us to the next step, the plan ning grant of $2,000, on the average of $2,000 per school division.

Some school divisions will spend that amount, some school division will spend less, some perhaps may spend

May 4, 1976 3337 SUPPLY - EDUCATION (MR. HANUSCHAK cont'd) . • • . • more. Some school divisions may be farther down the road in the planning and design of their special needs program than others, and may have a more sophisticated program developed today, and may not need to spend this particular appropriation, or that full amount, that would vary from school division to school division. Secondly, Mr.

Chairman, some school divisions that may have a very sophisticated program developed to meet their own particular needs, but there may be no program developed to meet the needs of the neighbouring school divisions, and the neighbouring school divisions may not be .in a position to develop a program of their own, and hence that leads to a need for the development of some co-operative programs for the sharing of a special needs education program, Mr. Chairman. I'm sure, Mr.

Chairman, that many of the school divisions bordering on the Winnipeg School divisions, and probably all of them, are not in the position to develop a program of their own, Interlake, Whitehorse Plains, Morris�·McDonald, one can go the complete circle around the City of Winnipeg, Mr. Chairman, and I'm sure that neither one of them are in a position to develop a full blown, complete, special needs program designed to deal with all the physical and mental handicaps of children on their own, without resorting to some co-operative effort with a neighbouring school division.

So it's not just a matter of dollars, it's a matter of co-operative effort on the part of teacher, superintendents and trustees of all school divisions, and it is at that stage we are at with the majority of the school divisions in the province. So it was for that purpose, Mr. Chairman, that the $2,000 per school division planning grant was included in the Estimates, because, Mr. Chairman, we do believe that this is a logical way to go.

There is a commitment to meet increased demands, which Bill 58 no doubt will bring about, and there being that commitment to meet increased demands, let's plan and prepare a program properly in a sound businesslike fashion. So, the planning grants will enable the department and the school divisions to examine their needs over the next while, examine ways and means in which they could provide for those needs individually, co-operatively, and then take the next step toward the implementation of them. Also, Mr.

Chairman, in the process of identifying needs one has to undertake and venture into a certain screening process, screening particularly in the areas of vision and hearing. And here again, Mr. Chairman, it's the intention of the government to provide a service jointly, drawing upon th e expertise of my department and that of the Department of Health to provide this type of screening process to identify the children suffering from visual or hearing disabilities. Insofar as identifying the hearing handicapped, that, Mr.

Chairman, at this point in time is well under way and the visual screening is in the process of commencement. Again the honourable member is quite correct for the second time around tonight as he was this afternoon that there is a matter of staff development which cannot be ignored. When we talk about staff development we have to concern ourselves about two issues. Two issues really stand out. One is that attitude of teachers.

Many of the difficulty which some teachers and administrators presently envisage can be corrected simply by a change of attitude on the part of the teachers and the supervisory staff and the boards. Coupled with that, we do recognize the fact, Mr. Chairman, that there is the need for the development of certain skills which some of the teachers, or perhaps many of the teachers who will have to work with children in the category gf special needs, skills which they do not presently have. These skills will have to be developed within the teachers. Staff development funds will be earmarked for that purpose.

The honourable member this afternoon tried to make a big issue of the fact that I used transportation as an example as being an added cost. There's no denying that it will be, particularly in the rural areas and in those urban areas where at the present time there is no provision for transportation support from the province. In rural areas, this would add to the cost tremendously. Also need for additional equipment, of course, Mr. Chairman.

So to give the honourable member, and to set his mind at ease, that we're talking about much more than merely a planning grant of $2,000 per school division and this again is related to size, related to size and need.

3338 May 4, 1976 SUPPLY - EDUCATION (MR. HANUSCHAK cont'd) • • Comes the next step. When we've reached the point where we can take definite steps towards the initiation of a speCial needs program, grants would be provided to school divisions based on the merits of their proposed projects for providing programs and services to special needs children in the division and grants for this purpose will be up to a total of $111,000 for the province. Plus $93,000, Mr. Chairman, for resource personnel training.

This is the concern that the Honourable Member for Fort Rouge spoke about a moment ago and this we will not be able to resolve in one year. This may take three to four years to do a proper personnel training job in the field of both resource personnel training and classroom teacher training. Because if most of the children that would fall in the special needs category are going to be integrated into the mainstream of a classroom there will be need to provide this type of assistance, assistance by way of training for the classroom teacher. Mr. Chairman, I had mentioned earlier the screening for this year.

It'll be $150,000 for the identification of those children, to identify those requiring special needs primarily in the areas of hearing, vision and motor skills. For this year, for the acquisition of special learning assistance equipment, some of which perhaps would be assigned or designated to certain divisions, some would be of a portable nature that could be moved from division to division, but $80,000 is earmarked for that for the current fiscal year. Then, Mr.

Chairman, when we get into the next fiscal year, in 1977 it is the government's hope that I would then be in a position to indicate what additional resources will be needed to give effect to the statement of intent of Bill 58. At that point in time the legislation can be proclaimed and made mandatory after having obtained as accurate an assessment of the needs, of the special needs in the province, having made an assess ment of the resources that we could provide, of the assistance that we could provide to the school divisions to meet special needs.

At that time the legislation could be made mandatory and a time line could be stated within which period of time the school divisions ought to develop the types of programs that they have demonstrated the need for and for which there is a need in their particular community. Mr. Chairman, when the Honourable Member for Fort Rouge talks about a grant of $2,000 per school division for the development and implementation of a special needs program he is only about $413, 000 out.

The reason why he is out by that much - because he remembers very well that I had commenced to answer his questions this afternoon and ' I did not have the time because we did run out of time because it was 4:30 and time to go into Private Members. He did not have the courtesy to allow me to continue with my response, he chose to make another speech. So he made his speech, I gave him the bal ance of my answer and I hope that he now appreciates the fact that it is not $2,000 per school division but a total of $484,000 that we're looking at that's in our appropriation for the implementation of Bill 58. MR .

CHAIRMAN: Resolution 48(a) - the Honourable Member for Brandon West. MR. McGILL: Mr. Chairman, I didn't intend to intrude upon this exchange between the Minister and the Honourable Member for Fort Rouge but if I might just comment very briefly. When the Honourable Member for Fort Rouge says that somehow we didn't realize, at the time this bill was passed, the impli cations and the massive amount of funding that would be needed to implement the individual divisional treatment for exceptional children, I hope that he is speaking for his own group.

It may be that he was absent when the bill was dealt with by the Official Opposition but I clearly recall, Mr. Chairman, that the principal thrust of our critical comment of this bill was that therE was some principle involved here which the department had apparently approved without having provided any backup study in terms of the financial resources that would be neces sary either from the department or from the individual divisions in which to fulfill this promise that was provided within the bill.

I would like to think that perhaps as a result of those critical comments in bringing these matters to the attention of the Minister that that particular

section of the bill was not proclaimed at the time that the rest of the bill e

May 4, 1976 3339 SUPPLY - EDUCAT ION (MR. McGILL cont'd) • • • • • was proclaimed. So, Mr. Chairman, I am sure that the Honourable Member for Fort Rouge was not including the Official Opposition in his apology for not having dealt with the bill and realized the implications contained within that particular section. Mr. Chairman, I am not sure that this final item that I have to bring to the attention of the Minister properly belongs in Appropriation No. 3. It relates to the school building program and I'm not sure whether you, Mr.

Chairman, would like to have this item brought up at this time or whether you wish me to withhold it and deal with it during the consideration of the Minister's salary. MR . CHAIRMAN: The honourable member. Nobody's calling the honourable member to order. MR. McGILL: Thank you.

This matter relates really to a subject that the Minister dealt with at great lengths in the earlier stages of the debate when he alleged that there was great political maneuvering in the decisions made by a former administra tion in respect to the location of schools. --(Interjection)-- Well I hope the Minister won't fall into the same category as another member of the House that was criticized just a moment ago for delivering the same speech twice. I don't think that we should suffer the same from the Minister. Mr.

Chairman, I know that the inferences made by the Minister about the kind of political decisions that another administration had made with respect to the building or not building of schools that were proposed, must be somewhat the result of his having had some political pressures himself. I think that would be not unusual perhaps for the Minister of Education to have had some pressures during the early formative stages of school proposals for the building or the major additions to schools within the province. I'd like to refer, Mr.

Chairman, to a statistical report for the Winnipeg School Division No. 1 for December 31st, 1973. The Division in that report gave indication of an extensive building program. Part of the program involved the building of new schools to replace old ones as well as building of major additions to existing schools. Some of the schools listed, Mr. Chairman, in that report were Daniel Mcintrye, King Edward, Lord Selkirk, Machray, Sargent Park, Shaughnessy Park, William Whyte and General Wolfe.

Now the question I would put to the Minister is this: are all of these schools or addition to schools either completed or under construction at this date? MR. HANUSCHAK: Mr. Chairman, firstly if I may respond to the honourable member's comments re Bill 58 when the Honourable Member for Brandon West dis associates himself f'rom the comments of the Honourable Member for Fort Rouge by indicating that last year on Bill 58, at least the Off icial Opposition was well cognizant of the financial implications of the bill. I'm not quite sure what the honourable member is attempting to imply in making that comment.

Is he attempting to say that he is in some fashion opposed to the implementation of Bill 58? Is he saying we ought not move in the direction of providing for special needs within our school system or what? I really don't know, Mr. Chairman. Perhaps during the course of the debate the Honourable Member for Brandon West will have an opportunity to clarify that statement. Then he went on to talk about our building program and listed the schools, the construction of which may have been approved, not necessarily commenced, three years ago, some commenced quite recently, some still under construction. Mr.

Chairman, if the. honourable member is unaware of how the school building replacement process works then I do regret that he does not have that close a contact with a school di vision in his own riding, namely the Brandon School Division. If he did have a close liaison, a close line of communication with it, he would know that the first step toward the building of any school is taken by the school division; it is the school division that submits a letter of intent within which it requests for permission to build a school, build an addition, under take major renovation, whatever it may be.

The initiative is not taken by the department but by the school division. I don't believe, Mr. Chairman, I don't believe for one moment that the school divisions the formula that the Tories had in this memo of June, 1968, when they rated constituencies as to being solid opposition, solid government, volatile opposition, etc. on a point scale from one to six and then multiplied that times the effectiveness of the program from a minus one, where program effort has a negative

3340 May 4, 1976 SUPPL Y - EDUCATION (MR. HANUSCHAK cont'd) • • . • • impact to a plus two, where program effort is exceptionally important, giving you an eighteen-point scale, and on that point decide where to build the next school. I don't think that the school divisions use the same formula which the Tories had in their possession in June 1968, on the eve of the 1969 election when they were defeated you will recall, Mr. Chairman - probably in an attempt to adhere to that formula. So .the initiative comes from the School Division and not from the department. I will respond to those that I can.

Machray School is complete; King Edward School is under construction; Shaughnessy Park - and I should point out, Mr. Chairman, if the honourable member doesn't know that Machray School was rated amongst one of the oldest in the City of Winnipeg, built way back at the turn of the century. That has been demolished and replaced with a somewhat smaller structure.

Lord Selkirk School, it too was built around the turn of the century and the building of it has been completed; King Edw ard is presently under construction; Sargent Park, the school was over-crowded and there was need for an addition to be built there and I do believe that the addition to Sargent Park has been complete. I will double check that if the honourable member is really concerned about the present stage at which the construction of that addition is at, I believe it's complete.

The Shaughnessy Park addition, if I could speak on behalf of the Honourable Member for Inkster, I would gladly, on his behalf, take the Honourable Member for Brandon West into his constituency and show him the addition to Shaughnessy Park School and show him what has happened to that community in recent times to make it necessary for the building of an addition. William Whyte School is complete. That too was a replacement for an old building, a very old building. Not only was it an old building, Mr.

Chairman, but the engineer's reports, which the school division had, also indicated the building to be structurally unsound for educational purposes, for public school purposes. General Wolfe School, I drive past it practically every week and I' m very pleased to see the progress in the construction of it. The sod turning took place last fall as I recall it, September or October or .it may have been a bit earlier than that. My recollection seems to be it was in the fall, but the construction is under way. General Wolfe, I should also mention, Mr. Chairman, that too was a replacement.

That was a replacement for a building built in the twenties which, if not all of it, a sizeable portion of it at. any rate, was meant to have been a temporary structure to take care of the expanding enrolment which occurred after the First World War. Then with renovation, with repair from time to time, it served the community for over 50: years. But it reached the point where again it was just - number one, it was impractical and not economically feasible to repair or do a major renovation job of it, that was point number one.

Point number two, it too was found to have been structurally unsound for educational purposes. Daniel Mclntrye Collegiate, that is an expansion to an existing building. The existing building was built in the twenties, perhap:; not in the early twenties, I would think that it was most likely in the mid�twenties. Nevertheless at the time that it was built it was built for a somewhat smaller community than it now serves, a less densely populated community. At that time it served its needs very well.

Today the Winnipeg School Division finds that the needs of the community, the size of the community, has outgrown the school and hence the need to expand it. I do regret, Mr. Chairman, that that is one school that I cannot give you a progress report at this point in time as to whether the addition, I believe the addition was complete but really I cannot say, Mr. Chairman. I do regret that but that is one of the few schools in Manitoba that I cannot give the honourable member a progress report of. MR . McGILL: Mr. Chairma n, I thank the Minister for a rather elaborate answer to a very simple question. In

summary I would take it that all of the schools and additions that I mentioned are either completed or under construction. Mr. Chairman, my next question to the Minister is this: did all of these pro jects indicated above have a positive recommendation from the 8-Jhool Buildings Project Committee, that is the Committee of the Public Schools Finance Board, as well as the approval of the Minister ? I will just repeat 'that question, Mr. Chairman, to make sure the Minister understood it. Did all of these projects indicated above have a positive recommendation from the School Buildings Projects Committee as well as the approval of the Minister ?

May 4, 1976 3341 SUPPLY - EDUCATION MR . HA NUSCHAK: Mr. Chairman, if the honoura ble member would read The Public Schools Act he would find that the recommendation ·c omes to me from the Public Schools Finance Board. They did have the approval of the Public Schools Finance Board. MR . McGILL: Well then again, in

summary, the Minister is saying that each one of these projects that were enumerated, that are either completed or under constr uc tion, were recommended by the Public Schools Finance Board? MR . HAN USCHAK: Yes, Mr. Chairman. That is with reference to these, but the honourable member also knows that under The Public Schools Act there is a right of appeal. A school division has a right of appeal from a decision of the Public Schools Finance Board to the Minister, and his decision is final. MR . CHAIRMAN: Resolution 48(a)--pass - the Honourable Mem ber for Roblin. MR. McKE NZIE: Mr.

Chairman, I wonder if the Minister can fill me in on the details of the new roof that's going on the elementary school at Roblin? Six hundred thousand dollars and a fairly new building. What part of it are the local taxpayers going to have to pick up and what part the Province of Manitoba is picking up for the construct ion of that roof? MR . HANU SCHAK: Mr. Chairman, I'm not quite sure what the honourable member means by giving him the details of the construct ion of a roof. Does he want me to fill him in on the details? --(Interjection)-- How much tar paper, how much tar? Mr.

Chairman, insofar as capital construction is concer ned the Provincial Government picks up all approved costs. MR. McKE NZIE: I only have the list of those that tendered for it, I don't have who it was awarded to. The tenders were released on the 9th of February but the last report that I have, there were several tend ers came in but I never heard who was the one that was successful in the bid. I was just wond ering how the costs - is it strictly • • • ? It's a matter of architects, and contractors and it's • • • I just wond er, maybe it was the architect's fault, maybe it was the cont ractor's fault.

Maybe we should be more selective in these contracts or maybe we should be tighter on those that are doing the architecture because that school has caused a lot of anxiety and the one at Gilbert Plains for years, because the architecture maybe was a little ahead of the times or something. I'm just wondering as I gazed at the notes on my desk, if the Minister had some informa tion. MR . HA NUSCHAK: Mr. Chairman, the honourable member is raising two issues. The honourable member is raising one, the cost of repairing a roof that was either falsely designed or constructed; that's point number one.

Point num ber two, the liability of the one who perhaps should be held responsible for the faulty design and/or construction. Insofar as the latter is concerned, we do have I'm certain, Mr. Chair man, a very competent judiciary to deal with that issue. Insofar as the former is concerned I would repeat again that approved capital construction is a responsibility of the government. MR . CHAIRMAN: Resolution 48(a)--pass; 48(b) --pass; 48(c) --pass - the Honourable Member for Brandon West. MR . McGILL: Mr. Chairman, in this matter of the Miscellaneous Grants of $194 ,4 00.

Can the Minister tell us what the principle items are contained in that Miscellaneous Grants? MR . HANUSCHAK: I'm sorry Mr. Chairman. Woil.ld the honourable member please repeat his quest ion. While I was finding the proper page in my book I did not hear the question. MR . McGILL: Mr. Chairman, the quest ion was: what are the principle items in the Miscellane ous Grants of $194, 400, item (c)? MR . HANUS CHAK: Yes, Mr. Chairman, Council of Education Ministers $56,000; Canadian Ed ucational Association $20,000; Manitoba Metis Federation $50,000 - that's two thirds of the $194, 000 right there.

Those are the three major ones: the 56, 20 and the 50. The others are the Manitoba As sociation of School Trustees $10, 000; Associations of Student Councils $10,000 and a number of $2, 000 grants: a $50 0 grant for the Home and School and Parent -Teacher Federation; the High School Bonspiel $400; the Greater Winnipeg Schools Orchestra $3 ,000; United Nations Seminar $2, 500; Frontier College $4,000 and the like. If the honour able member wants me to take the time of the Committee I can list them all, but I believe he asked for the major ones which I believe I did.

3342 May 4, 1976 SUPPLY - ED UCATION MR . CHAIRMAN: (c)--pass - the Honourable Member for Roblin. MR . McKENZIE : Mr. Chairman, I wonder if the Minister would elaborate on the $5 0, 000 to the Manitoba Metis Federation, give me some breakdown on how that money is expended in say my constituency, or was it in fact? MR.

HANUSCHAK: I'm sorry I cannot indicate to the Honourable Member for Roblin the exact number of dollars that the people of his constituency have been the dire ct beneficiaries of because this is for a counselling service for the Metis people, to make them aware of the programs offered at our post secondary education institutions, make them aware of how and where and when to apply for student aid and where to register for different courses and this type of thing, as well as a modest bursary allocation, The bursary allocation is really a to-meet-crisis-needs type of thing, A student finds that he needs a couple of hundred dollars within the next couple of weeks because he's on his way in to Winnipeg or to Brandon or wherever, or to The Pas to register and he needs the money for tuition fees, he needs the money to pay his first month's board and room or whatever.

So just to tide him over - in the event he should be a late registrant and until such time as his student aid application is processed and this sort of thing, Also the publication of literature that's distributed in Metis communities making them aware of our post secondary education programs. For that reason it's practically impossible for me to indicate whether the people in Camperville community have benefited to the extent of $1, 000 or $2, 000 or $3 , 000 or whatever, of this $5 0, 000 Appropriation, MR. McKENZIE : Just for clarification, Mr. Chairman.

I guess the moneys are directed then from the Minister's Office and they don't filter down through the Duck Mountain School Division or Inter-Mountain School Division, This money it never gets into their hands, it strictly comes out of the Minister's Office . Is that correct? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Education, MR. HANUSCHAK: Mr. Chairman, if the honourable member was listening to me, 1 said that this is a grant to the Manitoba Metis Federation, I do not believe that the Manitoba Metis Federation and Duck Mountain School Division or any school division in the Province of Manitoba are synonymous .

MR , CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MR . AXWOR THY: Thank you , Mr. Chairman, I just wanted to raise this is sue with the Minister. He has talked a good deal in the Es timates about his desire to consult and to deal with the public and particularly to work with parents and the commu nity at large.

On that basis I was wondering why he decided, I gather through a person al , , , to discontinue the grant that were to be given to the Home and School and the Parent-Teacher Federation of the Manitoba Schools which has some 25 locals in the City of Winnipeg and I gu ess several other locals outside the city.

I believe the grant was for about $1, 500 or has been over the past several years which in the $1 94, 000 Budget doesn't loom that large, It would seem to me that the organization to a degree would provide a vanue for parents and others to express the concerns of the community about education and provide a fairly important service, one that in the past has been very essential to the creation of the school system. I'm just wondering whether or not it's a false economy to have cancelled the grant at this time, particularly in light of the kinds of concerns being expressed by parents about the nature of the schools.

I wonder if the Minister could give us some more explanation why he decided to discontinue that grant. MR. HANUSCHAK: Mr. Chairman, if the honourable member missed this, the Home and School and the Parent-Teacher Federation will receive a grant of $5 00 which I'm advised is equal to approximately one-half of their current year's Budget. With all due credit to the Home and School and Parent-Teacher Federation of Manitoba, I suppose at one point in time the Home and School Associations of Manitoba served a very useful function and I know that at one point in time they were more active than they are today.

Ev eryone knows, Mr, Chairman, that over tba past few years the membership in the Home and School Associations has been declining and is down now to only a handful of schools attached to which one would find Home and School Associations , That being so, I think that the level of support that we offer is a fair and equitable one. We also are aware, Mr. Chairman, that in the meantime various other forms

May 4, 19 76 3343 SU PPLY - EDUCATION (MR. HANUSCHAK cont'd) ••••• of liaison and communication between the community and the school boards has developed in the form of IDeal Advisory Committees, Parents Advisory Committees attached to the School Boards Advisory Committees , located in the various towns and communities in the rural divisions and so forth. You will recall, Mr.

Chairman, that some of the pilot projects that we have and some of the projects that the Honourable Member for Fort Rouge himself endorses and in fact has criticized our govern ment for not doing enough in that area, if one were to take a real close hard look at their aims and objectives - one wouldn't even have to take that close and as hard a look at their aims and objectives to discover that it is to do not only that which the Home and School Ass ociations had aimed to do in the past but perhaps much more .

We are in a state of flux at this particular point in time in terms of the development and the establishment of vehicles to maintain the type of con tact, of communication between the community and the school board. The Home and School Associations, the levels at which they are oper ating at the present time, I feel that the province is paying its fair share toward its support to them. MR . AXWOR THY: Mr . Chairman, the Minister indicated that he has provided in his Es timates for $5 00.

However in February of this year, 1976 , he wrote to the Home and School, Parent-Teacher Federation and said he's ha4 the staff review the re quest and in that welcome of all phrases: "Although I cannot offer any financial assistance at this time, I wish you well in your efforts on behalf of parents and children in Manito ba" - Which was generally known as a "kiss-off" I guess in that jargon . All of a sudden now we'r e getting an indication that this letter has since been res cinded .

It was reported in the March Newsletter, Association Bulletin of the Home and School Association, and I assume now that either the Minister has changed his mind or that the $500 in the Estimates Book is not to be spent or that somehow or other there has been another letter sent since this one was communicated to the Home and School Association. Mr . Chairman, I'd like to take some issue with the Minister's assessment of the usefulness of such an association.

While I would concede that in certain of the community type schools there's a different type of organizational base in the community, that many schools do not have that sort of base, they're not organized in that way and that there are , I believe, at this time some 25 Home and School Ass ociations active in the area of Winnipeg in the different schools. Again while I can't comment on the quality of the liaison they provide with the school it would seem to me that if it's not as strong as it should be then perhaps some steps should be taken to strengthen and enhance that particu lar role .

The assessment I would make of one of the severe problems of the Department of Education in the way it works is that it doesn't really understand very well what is going on in the community. If you keep groups like Home and School and Parent-Teacher groups in a skeleton basis then they're not able to provide the kind of outlook and attitude that might be more useful and prevalent in shaping school policies.

First I'd like the Minister to clarify if in fact the letter of February, 1976 has since been res inded or if in fact there is some other alternative that he is thinking about and request of him that he think again about this decision to either totally eliminate the grant or to cut it down to the point where it almost becomes meaningless. MR. HANUSCHAK : Mr . Chairman, I've just indicated to the honourable member that there is $500 contained in the Estimates for the curren t year. I have announced it in committee and that will appear in the record. That Mr .

Chairman, is a commitment on the govermnent's part to pay the $500, If the honourable member has any doubt about it I will send him a copy of the Order-in-C ouncil, of the letter accompanying the Order-in Council, accompanying the cheque, whatever else will be sent to the Federation of Home and School Associations, so that he will be able to close his file on that particular matter and set his mind at ease as to wh ether or not the Home and School Ass ociations will re ceive the $500 or not. Mr.

Chairman, when the Honourable Member for Fort Rouge speaks about 25 Home and School Associations still active in the Province of Manitoba, 25 out of how many schools total? A thousand? There are about 1, 200 school units in the Province of Man itoba at this point in time ranging in size from a handful of one, two, three-room

3344 May 4, 1976 SUPPLY - EDUCATION (MR. HANUSCHAK cont'd) ••••• classrooms , all the way up to the size of some of the larger ones we have in many of our urban communities. The 25 schools in terms of the number of school units represents something in the order of two percent of the total number of school units. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge on a point of order. MR. AXWO RTHY: I think the Minister is falling into his conventional habit of misunderstanding things deliberately . I said there was 25 within the Winnipeg area itself. I couldn't estimate a number throughout the whole province.

So I think he should keep those figure s in mind. MR. HANUSCHAK: I'm very much mindful of what the honourable member has mentioned because he will find that if he checks it out for himself he will find that the vast majority of the Home and School Associations are within the City of Winnipeg and very few outside its boundaries. He would also find , Mr. Chairman, that the vast maj or ity, if not all of the Home and School Associations - or let me put it in the reverse.

Very fe w, if any, of the Home and School Associations are functioning within those com munities wherein there may be the greatest need for a close liaison between the school and the community that it ought to serve. Secondly, he will find that for whatever reason, but it appears to be a fact , that the Home and School Association becomes somewhat ineffective at grade levels above Grade 3 or 4. Kindergarten to Grade 3 it seems to generate in some schools - and again very fe w, very few - a certain amount of parent-teacher involvement but very little if any beyond that.

Hence the concern of government and hence the pilot projects that we have dealt with for many hours earlier in the debate of my Estimates under an appropriation that has already been approved, our concern to design models that would be effe ctive in schools in general. Not only in Kindergarten to Grade 3 but continuing from Kindergarten to Grade 12 that would maintain that type of a close relationship and involvement between the community and the school . MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 48{c)-- pass; Resolution 48{d) - the Honourable Member for Brandon West. MR. McGILL: Mr.

Chairman, there was an increase in the assistance to schools in remote settlements this year of approximately $220, 000. I wonder if the Min ister can account for this . MR. HANUSCHAK: Mr . Chairman, three schools account for about 91 or 92 percent of this $1 ,2 40, 000. They are Falcon Beach, Hillridge at Ebb and Flow and Stedman at Fairfo rd. The schools in areas outside school divisions within which there is very little if any local tax base upon which one could draw a special levy and hence this appropriation.

These amounts that appear in here, $1 37.4 thousand for Falcon Beach, $516 .6 thousand for Hillridge at Ebb and Flow and the $484 .4 thousand for Stedman at Fairford are in a sense comparable to what any other school division would likely be able to raise by way of special levy. This is based on our estimate of the operating costs for the forthcoming year . I'm sure that the honourable member would agree with me that he 's pro bably really looking at a diff erence of about 50 or 60 thousand dollars because 10 to 15 percent he would consider to be quite normal in this period of infla tion.

If he wants me to give him a complete detailed breakdown of the differences in the expenditures for this fiscal year as compared with last year I'm prepared to do that. If he wants it - MR . McGI LL: Mr. Chairman, the Minister mentioned the remote schools of Stedman, Hillridge and Falcon. How many staff members are employed there, in those three, during 1975-76 and how many will be employed in 1976-77. MR. HANUSCHAK: At Falcon Beach, three full time teachers --{Interjection)- Very well, I'll go through this slowly.

There are three full time teachers ; there is three-eighths of a caretaker .a nd there is one part time and the fraction isn't shown of the secretary. At Hillridge, 16 full time teachers - 18 I would think: 16 full time, 2 natives - five aides, three technician aides, three caretakers, two attendance offi cers. I would think, Mr. Chairman, that under other Salaries, caretakers, attendance offi cers, lunch room supervisors, secretary, miscellaneous help, the figures that I have before me , total

May 4, 197 6 3345 SUP PLY - EDUCA TION (MR. HANUSCHAK cont'd) ••••• up to 8, But I woukl doubt very much whether those are full time because I notice that the appropriation for those 8 people plus miscell aneous help was $45, 000, So it's very very unlikely that those are full time . Some of them no doubt are. I would think that two or possibly all three of the caretakers are full time but I would very much doubt if the attendance officers are full time . At Stedman, 21 -1/ 2 teachers .

There are two permit teachers there, one student teacher, four teacher aides, And again I regret that I cannot indicate to the honourable member how many of the caretakers and secretarial help, the secretary, attendance officer is full time , But it has shown three caretakers, one attendance officer, and two lunch room supervisors. Well here again I think that the lunch room supervisors , that no doubt they are paid on an hourly basis for two or three hours a day, or whatever length of time that they may be employed in the school, which may be less than a day, and a secretary. MR .

CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Brandon West, MR . McGILL: I take these to be the present employment statistics for those three in most school divisions. MR . HANUSCHAK: Mr . Ch airman, I have nothing to indicate any change in the staffing for the forthcoming year, No, I have no indication of any change in the staffing at the present time , because I do not believe, Mr . Chairman, that we know at this particular point in time what our st affing requirements will be come September 1s t.

We may have a better knowledge of that fact come the end of May; well even then, because then we would know what staff would have to be replaced, But in terms of any population shift, any population changes. any influx of even a few families in some of these com munities may necessitate the hiring of an additional teacher, A few families moving out may leave the school district in a situation where there may be an additional teacher over grant, So that, at this point in time, is impossible to answer. MR . McGILL: Mr. Chairman, I was interested - he mentioned two attendance officers .

How many schools or divisions have attendance officers in the province now? MR . HANUSCHAK: Very few, Mr . Chairman. Very few in the sense of having someone specifically earmarked as an attendance officer . If one reads The Attendance Act, one finds that the administration of The Schools Attendance Act is the responsibility of each school division, but the manner in which it is administered may vary from divi sion to division. I would suspect, Mr .

Chairman, that in schools such as Hillridge and Stedman, that the attendance officer probably is something of a cross between an attend ance officer and a counsellor in a sense. You know where there might be some cross cultural problems, and so forth, where the attendance officer has to spend some time to point out, perhaps even to the parents, the wisdom and merit of seeing to it that the children attend school regularly, and hence the need for two people to be assigned to this particular function. MR . CHAIRMAN: Resolution 48(d) - the Honourable Minister of Education . MR .

HANUSCHAK: The Honourable Member for Swan River speaking from a seat other than his own, says that it could be dog catcher too. Well if that's his esti mation of the needs of the native and the Metis people in his riding, well he speaks for him self but not for the government, nor I would hope not for anyone else in this House. MR . CHAIRMAN: Resolution 48(d)--pass; Resolution 48(e) - order please, Resolution 48(e)--pass; Resolution 48 (f) - the Honourable Member for Brandon West. MR . McGILL: Mr .

Chairman, I'd like to know what items are inc luded in this item of $7 5, 000 for Ev aluation, Research and Policy Analysis. Why is it separated from the Appropriation No, 2 where we have a resolution covering that item ? MR . HANUSCHAK: The reason why they are separated, Mr . Chairman, is be cause these are paid by way of grant to the school divisions . If the honourable member will give me a minute, I could give him a breakdown of the grant. Of the $75, 000, $50, 000 is schools for urban neighborhoods. That, Mr.

Ch airman, is tied in with - you will recall that when we were dealing with Evaluation, Research and Policy Analysis, that branch of my department is very closely involved with this program, and I did describe the programs at that time . But those are the

3346 May 4, 1976 SUP PLY - EDUCATI ON (MR. HANUSCHAK cont'd) ••••• funds that are paid to the school divisions for their added costs in the operation of the schools for Urban Neighborhoods Program. MR . McGILL: Mr. Chairman, that item was one listed under the original appropriation, I believe for Ev aluation and Research, and so forth. Now here's another appropriation that's going through from the other direction by way of the divisions . Why are they not contained in one? MR . HANUSCHAK: Mr . Chairman, under Appropriation No. 2, these are costs, expenses incurred by the Department of Education.

Under Item 3, that we're dealing with now, these are grants paid to school divisions. This is the portion of the costs of this particular program, which is being operated jointly by my staff, my staff employed in Eval uation, Research and Policy Analysis , jointly with the Winnipeg School Division and the Brandon School Division, and this represents the amount, the cost of that program that is borne by the school divisions and paid to them by way of gran ts , and hence, the separate appropriation. But it is no duplication whatsoever. MR . CHAIRMAN: Resolution 48(f) . The Honourable Member for Roblin. MR .

McKENZIE : ••• Mr . Chairman, therefore there's what ? 45 . They'd all get about $1 , 500 in school divisions for doing their own evaluation and research and policy. Is that correct? MR. HANUSCHAK: No, Mr. Chairman, nor is it my intention to teach the Honourable Member for Roblin a lesson in arithmetic. If this figure of $75, 000 divided by three gives him $1 , 500 then he has a problem in arithmetic. MR. CHAIRMAN: 48(f)--pass; Resolution 48(g)--pass - the Honourable Member for Brandon West. MR . McGILL: Mr.

Chairman, I presume something of the same explanation will be given here because under Appropriation No. 5 we have Child Development and Support Services , and again here the increase is rather sizeable here from last year's appropriation, approximately $45 0, 000. I wonder if the Minister can explain the increase in this appropriation. MR. HANUSCHAK: Yes, Mr . Chairman, the increase is largely due to an expansion of Child Development Services Programs in various parts of the Province of Manitoba.

For many years, child development services was essentially the Child Guidance Cl inic within the City of Winnipeg and offering some service to the neighboring school divisions, to the neighboring Winnipeg school divisions and minimal service, if any, beyond that.

Now we are in the process of establishing a regional form of delivery of child development services at the request of the school divisions where the school divisions have grouped themselves into teams and thereby providing themselves with psychologists, with reading experts, with social workers and whomever else they feel that they require to meet their particular needs, and I'm speaking particularly of one group, Selldrk, Agassiz , Pinawa, Pine Falls ; another, Fort LaBosse, Souris Valley, Turtle Mountain, Antler River; a third, Beautiful Plains and Rolling River. So this, Mr .

Chairman, is at the initiative of the school divisions and this is our support for that type of program. MR. CH AIRMAN: Resolution 48(g)--pass; Resolution 48 . Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $1 65, 762, 400 for Education--pass. Resolution 49. External Support Services. (

a) Field Services Branch (1) - Salaries . The Honourable Member for Brandon West. MR. McGILL: Mr. Chairman, last year the Legislature voted $873, 500 for the Field Services Branch, and the current Es timates show that last year we voted $73 3, 300. There's a $140, 000-odd difference there. Why the difference, Mr. Chairman? MR. CH AIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR. HANUSCHAK: That difference, Mr . Chairman, is the result of a reorganization. I would appreciate it if the honourable member would give us a couple of minutes and during the course of the debate I'll have the answer to his question.

But as I've indicated, this is largely due to a reorganization of this particular branch where some of the funds that were previously contained within it may appear under another appropriation, and I would indicate to the honourable member, where they do so appear.

May 4, 197 6 3347 SUPPLY -E DUCAT ION MR . McGILL: Yes, well while the Minister is turning up that information as to where the transfe r occurred and precisely what appropriation that $14 0, 000 now appears in, I'd ask him then again in respect to the Estimates for this year, there's a proposed expenditure of $7 24,800 for a non-existent branch. Why ? MR. CH AIRMAN: Does any other member wish to speak to resolution 49(a)(l )? The Honourable Member for Brandon West ? MR. McGILL: Well Mr.

Ch airman, I thought the question was fairly clear and perhaps has an answer that doesn't need to be tabulated or found from his financ ial records . I'd simply ask why they are asking for an expenditure of $724, 800 for a non-existent branch, the Field Services Branch, which no longer exists ? MR . HANUSCHAK: Mr . Chairman, the honourable member expresses an opinion, he's entitled to his opinion.

It was the honourable member who said it's a non-existent branch, and if in his opinion it's a non-existent branch, well if that 's the way the Honour able Member for Brandon West chooses to interpret the activities and operations of a de partment, well he's entitled to those opinions . I maintain that it is not a non-existent branch. So therefore my answer to the question is: Because it is not a non-existent branch but because it is a very much existent branch. And that's my answer to his question, If that 's the type of questions he's going to ask me, that's the type of answer he's going to receive . MR .

McGILL: Mr. Chairman, about 20 persons were dislodged from their positions in the Field Services Branch on March 31st. Are they all now reassigned and active in th eir new appointments ? MR . HANUSC HAK : Yes, Mr . Ch airman. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 49(a) . The Honourable Member for Brandon West . MR . McGILL: Well Mr. Chairman, my information is that as of the 26th of April there were approximately five of the field off icers that were not re-assigned and were sort of in a holding pattern, being paid their regular salaries but having no specific duties to perfo rm.

I wonder if the Minister can give me some informa tion as to that situation at the momen t . MR. HANUSCHAK: Their duties continue as previously assigned . MR. McGILL: Well, Mr. Ch airman, I would suggest to the Minister that a number of the se fie ld off icers do not yet know what their positions are and they have been told to wait . In the meantime, they are earning their usual $75 to $100 a day.

Now if the Minister has stated that the Field Services Branch is being eliminated for reasons of economy, and if all the members of the branch are going to be retained and paid the same as before , where is the economy entering into the picture ? MR . HANUSCHAK: Mr . Ch airman, once again I must repeat for the honourable member that the Field Services Branch is still very much in existence , and I don't know how much clearer or more emphatically I must make that statement to the honourable member to make him understand. --(Interjection)-- Mr .

Chairman, if there was some lack in basic skills at any time in our school syst em, I would suggest that it was at the time that the honourable member went to school. MR . CHAIRMAN: Resolution 49(a)( l) . The Honourable Member for Brandon West. MR . McGILL: Mr. Chairman, if as the Minister sugg ests , the Field Services Branch is very much in existence , can he tell me the name of the Director of the Field Services Branch ? MR . HANUSCHAK: Mr. Howard Dunfie ld. MR .

McGILL: I understand that the former director of the Field Services Branch has only one function now which is to act as the chairman of the Projects Review Committee . This committee is secondary to the School Buildings Projects Committee of which the director was formerly the chairman. There is now a new chairman of the School Buildings Project Committee. The director now is in a holding position since the chairmanship of the Projects Review Committee is very much a part time job. Now if he is still the director of the Field Services Branch then perhaps he should be advised . MR .

CH AIRMAN: Resolution 49(a) (l) - the Honourable Minister. MR . HANUSCHAK: In addition to that he is also chairman of the Discipline

3348 May 4, 1976 SUPPLY - ED UCATION (MR. HANUSCHAK cont'd) • • •• Committee and secretary to the Advisory Board which is a job in itse lf. MR . CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Brandon West, MR . McGILL: Mr. Chairman, I'd ask the Minister how often the Dis cipline Committee meets . You say he 's chairman of that committee, How often does the Disci pline Committee meet during the course of a month? MR . HANUSCHAK: It varie s from time to time, Mr. Chairman, The Dis cipline Committee meets when the need arises for it to meet . MR. McGILL: Mr .

Chairman, the Minister suggested tha t the former director of Field Services is now se cretary of tbe Advisory Board, Would he suggest that this would take more than two or three hours a month? MR . HANUSCHAK: Mr . Chairman, in replying to the honourable member's questions about tbe particular functions of specific individuals , what they're doing today or what they were doing yesterday or what they may do tomorrow, I certainly don't mind giving honourable members a certain amount of latitude and complying with their requests and responding to their questions . Mr .

Chairman, I was neither appointed Minister of Education, nor prior to that did I run for office as a member of the Legislative Ass embly with the hope of becoming part of the majority party which would form the governmen t, on the basis of either hiring anyone or promoting anyone or demoting anyone or dismissing anyone.

I ran on a plat form of making commitments to implement and deliver certain programs , If the honour able member wants to discuss the role and function of the Field Services Branch now as it existed previously , I'd be quite happy to do that , But I have no desire nor will I enter into a discussion of individuals , not about any one of the hundreds of individuals employed by my department.

If the honourable member is going to ask me, and if I'm going to respond to him, why did I assign or allow someone to be assi gned to some particular function which in his opinion appears to be some decrease in his responsibility, then he may also have the right to ask me why did I promote someone, why did I assign to someone certain additional functions to those which he previously had. Then he has the right to ask me why somebody wasn't hired to do a certain particular job, The debate could go on endles sly, On program, Mr. Chai rman, I'm prepared to answer each and every question.

Insofar as the employment of staff, Mr. Chairman , the assignment of staff, I am not prepared to enter into that type of discus sion about individuals on my staff. My respon sibility to this Hou se, to the people of Manitoba, is for the delivery of government pro grams . MR. CH AIRMAN: Resolution 49 (a) (l) - the Honourable Member for Brandon West. MR. McGILL: Mr.

Chairman, this really is the first time that the Minister has denied that he has not dismantled the Field Services Branch, We have discussed it from time to time during the discussion of the Es timates, particularly in relation to eval uation of the school programs . Tbe point was made on many many occasions that we now lacked that kind of assessment role formerly provided by the Field Officers .

The Minister accepted this and attempted to explain how now he would be able to proceed without the services that were formerly provided in that manner , Now he denies completely that he has in any way dismantled tlE Field Services Branch and I can't really reconcile his position now with the debate and discussion we've had on this whole matter during tlE whole course of the debates of his department, and also in the way in which he has answered questions from time to time when the future of the Field Services Off icers was a matter of concern, When it was suggested to him that their services had been terminated, the Minister said that was not true, that was garbage, that they had been transferred and they were still within the employ of the Province of Manitoba in some form, He did not suggest that they were continuing to perform their functions as Field Officers .

My point now, and I put the matter directly to the Minister, is he now re versing his position completely and saying we haven't done anything to the Field Service

May 4, 1976 3349 SUPPLY - EDU CATION (MR. McGILL cont'd) ••••• Branch. It 's all there; we've got a full operating Field Service Branch wit h a director and all of the Fi eld Officers arc now going to resume their work in the assessment of the programs being delivered in the schools of the province. If that's what he is saying, why that's fine . We should have that on the record . But let me have some clear understanding of which position the Ministe r is taking that we sho uld now endorse.

Is it his present position as of this evening, or is it his position of the previous days when he concluded that there were other ways in which the programs could be evaluated. MR. HANUSCHAK: Obviously th e Honourable Member for Brandon West does have a problem in understanding and he has my sympathy, my deepest sympathy. The Honourable Member for Birtlo -Russcll if he wishes to ente r the debate , he is quite at liberty to do so and I'd be glad to hear whatever contribution he may have to offer.

Mr. l_!hairman, again I must repeat that if the hono urable member wishes to de bate the role and function of the Field Services Branch at the present time , I'm quite pre pared to debate that with him . But in debating that issue wit h him, I'm not going to de bate with him what job some friend of his is doing or not doing. That type of debate I'm not going to enter into with him because I have not been elected to hire anybody. I was elected to deliver programs and the honourable member has every right , he has every right to question, scrutinize , examine government programs to his heart's content .

For that I am msponsible but I'm not going to answer to the Honourable Member for Swan Rive r nor for Brandon West whether in the course of the delivery of that program I have hired Mr . Smith or Mr. Brown to do a particuhr job. I'm glad that the Honourable Member for Swan River is speaking from another seat and I have resolved that point . I hope that he conveys his understanding of it to the Honourable Member for Brandon West. It may assist all of us in tin s committee Mr.

Ch airman, since the formation of the unitary school divisions in 1967 at which time there was a staff of 50 school inspectors - not 25, there were 50 - when you were the govern ment. MR . McGILL: How many are there now ? MR . HANUSCHAK: Tilere were 50. MR . McGILL: How many are there at the present moment ? MR. HANUSCHAK: I would suggest to th e honourable member that he train him self to attempt to think in a logical sequence rather than skipping around here, there and all over the place . Then he may have a better understanding of what has taken place.

There were 50 school inspectors when the unitary divisions came into being and the num bers gradually decreased. They decreased during the previous administration and they de creased during the present adnlinistration for a very obvious reason, for a reason that was as obvious to that side of the House when it was the government as it is to our side of the House now that we're the government.

The reason is - and now apparently the honourable member's mind is off the PHutik case - I'm glad that he is showing an interest in this de bate • One of the factors which contributed toward a reduction of the complement of school inspectors was the hiring of school superintendents which were non-existent prior to the formation of the unitary div isions , in the vast majori ty of the school divisio ns . They were non-existe n t in those school districts within which the Field Officers or school inspectors , as they were then known, assumed the most active role . So the local super inte ndents , Mr.

Ch airman, took over a great deal of the work which had formerly been done by the school inspectors . Despite the modification of operation in the utilization of the Fiel d Officers and team evaluations and special inve stigatio ns , it was quite evident , Mr. Ch airman, that there was a continuing parallelism of departmental jurisdiction in relation to the superintendent's role as an employee of the school board in the local school division .

So the re was evidence of a fair amount of duplication , in that which the school inspector or the field officer was expected and assigned to do and the role and function of the superinte ndents . As a result of this parallelism in the functions of the two, a decisio n was made during this year's Estimates, in the area of Fiel d Se rvices, rather than con tinue to have it function in the previous capacity to utilize this particular appropriation,

3350 May 4, 1976 SUPPLY - EDUCA TION (MR. HANUSCHAK cont'd) ••••• utilize the staff that's employed within here to offe r a consultative role and be of consultative and advisory assistance to the school divisions . In the proce ss of doing so, it's true that there were transfe rs of staff and the transfers of st aff occurred in such a manner as to maximize the utilization of the exper tise and the experience of all staff conce rned, those employed in what is now Imown as the Field Service s Branch and to whate ver other branch some may have been assigned to. Mr.

Chairman, this is nothing unusual in any departme nt, a transfer of staff in order to maximize the utilization of any individual's talents and abilitie s. That's nothing strange , nothing unusual. That, Mr. Chairman is simply the most efficient management of a de partmen t. Sure ly , Mr.

Chairman, the honourable me mber wouldn't sugge st that if some particular function bec ome s extinct , or becomes a duplication of something that is done in anothe r fashion, in anothe r way, or is being done elsewhere , that it should be retained just simply because some time in the past the de cision was made to employ ce rtain individuals in a certain capacity. The staff has to de live r the programs that the Department of Education is expected to delive r to the school divisions and hence the staff is utilized accordingly. MR . CHA.m,MAN: Resol ution 49(a)(l) - the Honourable Member for Brandon West . MR .

McGILL: I can't quite interpret the mes sage that the Minister is now de livering . I just have to ask him again if he has ever made the state ment that the Field Se rvice s Branch was being eliminated for reasons of ec onomy.

Have you, as the Ministe r of Education, made that state ment , that you were eliminating the Fie ld Services Branch for reaso ns of ec onomy, and then proceeded to transfer the Field Off icers to othe r appointments in various functions where you say you 're maximizing their abilities And who did you appoint to perform the functions formerly done by the Fie ld Off icers, the school inspecto rs ? MR. HANUSCHAK: Mr. Chairman, now the honourable membe r wants me to list the name s of all the peo ple appointed . That, Mr. Chairman, I'm not going to do at this time .

The honourable member asks me if I did not make the state ment that we intend to make such a change in the in terests of ec onomy. Mr. Chairman, we make many changes in the inte rests of ec onomy, both in the inte rests of ec onomy and in the intere sts of delivering gove rnment programs to the peo ple of Manitoba, the types of programs that they want in the most efficient manner possible • MR . McGILL: Mr. Chairman, did the Minister then make that statement that he was eliminating this Department in the interests of ec onomy, the Field Service s Branch. Now that's a specific statem ent.

He says he 's made many statements in the interests of eco nomy. Did he say that the Field Se rvice s Branch was being eliminated in the interests of ec onomy? MR . HANUSCHAK: Mr . Chairman, I said - and I did not exc lude any branch of my Department nor any othe r branch - that we make many change s in gove rnment in the inter est s of ec onomy, number one, and number two, in the inte res ts of delivering gove rnment programs in the most efficient manner possible . MR . CHA.m,MAN: The Honourable Member for Roblin. MR .

McKENZIE : I wonder if the Minister will go back and give us that figure of eight hundred and some thousand dollars that was approved last ye ar. We see $733 in this Estimate • Where did the $140, 00 0 or the hundred some thousand dollars go ? MR . HANUSCHAK: No, Mr. Chairman, at this point in time I do not have all the portions of the diff erence in that figure assembled to give the honourable member an answe r. MR. McKENZIE: ••• in the inte rests of the Member for Brandon West and the committee and myself if we could have that figure at the earliest possible date and an explanation of it . MR .

HANUSCHAK: I'll attempt to provide not only the Honourable Member for Brandon West, but the members of the committee with this information as soon as I possibly can.

May 4, 1976 3351 SUPPLY - EDU CATION MR . McKENZIE : Another question under the $724, 80 0 the Minister is asking to approve: how many people are involved in that program ? MR . HANUSCHAK: The exact rrum]:)O)r is 26.26. MR . CH AIRMAN: 49(a)(1) - the Honourable Memoor for Roblin. MR . McKENZIE : I have a question, Mr . Chairman. The Ministe r already said that the school inspectors, that some of them have ooen phased into another role and that 's in a consultative of ••• of the school divisions.

I wonder if hll could advise me, has the school divisions in my constituency asked for this he lp, or is it ooing charged back to their budget, or how is it going to oo financed? MR. HANUSCHAK: The constituents of Roblin constituency will oonefit from this to the same extent as the constituents of other constituencies of the province . MR . McKENZIE : Well I thank the Minister for his comments , but I'm wondering, he said in his earlier remarks that some of the inspectors would oo utilized in a consulta tive role to the school divisions.

Now I'm asking first if the school divisions asked for this , and if they did naturally they 'd be asked to pay for it, but if they didn't request this service , wh o's going to pay for it ? MR . HANUSCHAK: Mr. Chairman, we don't parachute any consultants into any school division. MR . CH AffiMAN: The Honourable Memoor for Brandon West . MR . McGILL: Mr.

Chairman, how many school inspectors have ooen given notice of transfer from the department, whether this transfer is actually taking place at this mom ent or not, how many have received notices that they will oo transferred to another area, either in education or in some other department of governmen t ? MR . HANUSCHAK : Mr . Chairman, the honourable memoor tries to make it sound as if pursuant to an edict issued by someone, suddenly the day came when someone received notice that he is going to be transferred to wherever.

I want the honourable memoor for Brandon West to know that that is not the manner in which it occu=ed. I want the honourable mem]:)O)r to know that my senior administrative staff does at all time s meet with any staff person that may oo deemed, either at his request or in the opinion of his senior officer, that a transfer may oo desirable; there is a meeting ootween the two, and alternative s are explored, and a transfer to the mutual satisfaction of all is then ar rived at, as had ooen in these cases. MR. McGILL: Mr.

Chairman, then how many such officers have had a letter, have had a meeting and mutually explored the possibilities and probabilities of transfer, and are now in the process of being transferred out of the Field Service Branch ? MR . HANUSCHAK: In some respect or another practically all of them, Mr.

Chairman, are still going to oo very much involved in functions very closely related to those that they were performing previously, just to give the honourable member an example, and I repea t again that it is not my in tention to discuss the life history of any one or any number of my employees , oocause I'm not responsible for that , and --(Interjection)-- The numbers ?

There are about 21 , some to Administration, some to External Administration Support, some to consultants in science , teacher certification, consultant services in Thompson, Parklands Region, and no doubt the one in Program Development in the Park lands Region will oo working very closely with the Duck Mountain School Division in devel oping the type of program that the survey which was done in Duck Mountain School Division, and funded by us, indicates that should have ooen done, so he would still oo very much involved in that, and program development as in language arts and vocational program development and vocational education, program development working with the program secretariat in Winnipeg and functions of that kind.

So the long and the short of it, Mr. Chairman, is that whatever transfer may have resulted did not in any way remove the field officers all that far from the functions they were previously performing, they're still functioning in a very closely related area, and perhaps - well in a more closely related area, and a more necessary function to oo performed at this time for which there is a much greater need as demonstrated by School Divisions, oocause in each and every instance whe re the field officers whic h ma y have ooen transferred to other branches within the department, they are operating within areas

3352 May 4, 1976 SUPPL Y - EDU CATION (MR. HANUSCHAK) • • wherein school divisions themselves have said to us, we need help in these areas, we need help in developing a vocational education program, we need help in developing a language arts program, we need help in developing a more meaningful and relevant science program for our school system, so it is in those areas that they are functioning. MR. McGILL: Well if there are 20 or 21 people moving out of this branch, why is the appropriation not taking into account some reduction in the cost of operating the Field Service Branch?

If you're talldng about 20 school inspectors who might average in the $20, 000 category, then we 're talldng about $400, 000; now why is the Minister asldng for an appropriation this year that is roughly the same as for previous years ? MR. HANUSCHAK: Mr. Chairman, they're going to be operating in these variow: capacities, but the funding, their salaries are going to be paid out of this appropriation, so hence the need for the funds . MR. McGILL: Mr.

Chairman, I can't understand how the Field Service Branch can request an appropriation of that size when these people are leaving that branch for some more meaningful employment or a better application of their sldlls , why is the Minister asking for ap proximately the same appropriation to run this department when he is going to have a greatly reduced staff in that department? MR. HANUSCHAK: Well Mr.

Chairman, because insofar as private schools are concerned, and insofar as remote schools are concerned, and insofar as the requests of some school divisions, small schools, are concerned the traditional role of the field office1 still remains and hence the need to retain this particular branch, and hence there it is, but I suppose it may well be that next year or the year after one may find a significant reduction in this particular appropriation. But really, Mr.

Chairman, it really doesn't matter because if I were to take X dollars out of one appropriation for one staff person and transfer him to another branch that X number of dollars would have to appear else where. --(Interjection)-- And now, the Honourable Member for Swan River again spealdng from another seat, says what's a million ? I don't get the revelance of that particular comment of his at all .

I'm simply attempting to explain some very basic arithmetic, which the honourable member prides himself in having learned in a little red school house that he attended priot to enrolling in the Northwest Mou nted Police, when he said that they really taught good hard sound arithmetic. All I said, Mr. Chairman, is that if you transfer X dollars out of one appropriation into another, it's going to ap pear in that other appropriation in exactl:}l the same amount.

Now to answer the honourable member his question for the $100, 000 difference between last year and this year, it's ma:de up of two items: $48 .7 thousand, which was the Home Ec consultants, or supervisors, and $51 .9 for Phys Ed, which appears under 21(5)(c in this years Estimates. MR . CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Roblin. MR . McKENZIE : Why was it reduced from what was approved last year to show this year ? That same figure should have appeared in the Es timates this year ? We ap proved it last year. MR .

HANUSCHAK: Because of the manner and the nature in which the branch was structured and changes in staff and so forth, it was purely a bookkeeping convenience that it was easier to make the transfer into those other branches this year, and it could have just easily appeared under the same appropriation, exactly the same number of dollars MR . CHAIRMAN: Resolution 49(a) (l ). The Honourable Member for Brandon West. MR . McGILL: Mr. Chairman, I just don't know how to interpret the varying positions of the Minister of Education with respect to the Field Services Branch.

It just seems incredible to me that we are getting this kind of a snow job on a well known situ ation that has been discussed for some weeks, if not months, in respect to the changing of the whole function of the school inspectors and their removal from the Field Services Branc.h to employment in other areas, and now the Minister is attempting to tell us that nothing has changed; he doesn't admit that he has ever said that there was any intention r ) . r s

May 4, 1976 3353 SUPPLY - EDUCATION (MR. McGILL cont'd) ••••• to eliminate this branch for reasons of economy. Why he has adopted this position now, I don't know, but I hope that somehow, some way we will be able to understand the vacillating kind of attitude which the Minister is displaying to us in this debate •. Mr. Ch airman, I think we just simply have to continue to ask the Minister ques tions about the performance of the former school inspectors, and how he intends to continue to try to justify approximately the same appropriations for the Field Services Branch as have been allocated in the past.

Perhaps in some way the Minister will again be able to explain this strange, strange attitude which he now has of saying that what everybody has been discussing as having happened over the past weeks and months has not really happen ed at all, that everything is the same as it was before except that we 're going to have now functions performed by school inspectors for which they are eminently more qualified and as the result everything will be happiness in the department and standards will rise, and so on. I don't know really, Mr.

Chairman, how we can proceed with the discussion of the whole appropriations here with those explanations that have been provided up to this point by the Minister , nevertheless we will try and see what develops in the course of time. I would suggest now, Mr. Ch airman, that to the Minister in respect to this Field Service Branch, that the school inspectors have in recen t years, as he knows, been desig nated as field officers, but that title has no legal basis in the various Acts pertaining to education, nor in the regulations under the Act, that is the Public Schools Act or the Attendance Act.

Inspectors legally are still named in the Public Schools Act and in the related Acts and in the regulations. Now my question to the Minister, Mr . Chairman, is, who now can grant perma nent certification to teacher.> in a division or a school district without a superintendent? Who can now grant permanent certification to those teachers in a division or a school district without a superintendent? Or who can grant permanent certification in a private school or an independent school? MR . HANUSCHAK: Mr.

Chairman, nothing has happened which in any way has We have not taken it upon ourselves to amend the Public Schools Act behind closed doors. The powers that my staff have unde r the Public Schools Act, under the Education Department Act, my staff still has those powers, and as I have indicated to the honourable member, less than three minutes ago, certainly no more than five minutes ago, that with respect to ce rtifications the honourable member knows and I think he mentioned this fact, that in school divisions which have superintendents it is the superintendent which grants permanent certification to teachers.

In those schools that do not have superintendents, name ly the remote small schools of our province, wherever they may be, that person who is assigned the duties and functions of • , , the sum total of all those functions that are contained within the Public Schools Act that a school inspector, a field officer, call them what you want, is expected to perform, that person is the one who assumes the responsi bility for the granting of permanent certification, so nothing has changed.

Now may I repeat again, for the benefit of the honourable member that, for I don't know how many times, the Field Services Branch still exists, the Field Services Branch has not been disbanded, the role and function of the Field Services Branch may have changed to meet the needs of the school system, as demonstrated to us probably by many of those who voted for the Honourable Member for Brandon West, because I wouldn't be so presumptuous as to say that every person who voted for Brandon West, and he may have been a school trustee, doesn't know how to run the school system, isn't aware of his needs , of the needs of a school division, and the school divisions are telling us that the type of service and assistance that they require from us today is not one of a type of a function that the school inspector performed traditionally over the years, but that they do require someone in advisory and a consultative capacity to assist them , in the develop ment of programs to assist them, in the evaluation of programs to assist them, in the development of vocation education programs, language arts , science, and so forth, all being performed within this branch, Mr.

Chairman. The func tion has changed to meet the changing needs of the times, but the staff is still there, and I really don't know,

3354 May 4, 1976 SUPPLY - EDUCATION (MR. HANUSCHAK cont'd) ••••• Mr. Chairman, why the honourable membe r, who pride s himself so much at what his basic skills education has done for him , the 60-75 years ago, or wheneve r it was, that he went to school, fails to understand that. MR. CHAffiMAN: Resol ution 49(a)(l ). The Honourable Member for Brandon West . The Honourable House Lead er . MR. GREEN: Mr. Chairman, since the honourable mem bers are having so much diffi culty unde rstanding each other maybe it would be a good time for the Committee to rise . Maybe they will unde rstand each other better tomorrow.

MR . CHAffiMAN: Committee risP.. Call in the Speak er. Mr. Speak er, your Committee of Supply has conside red certain resol utions, req ue sts me to report progre ss and begs lea ve to sit aga in. ill SESSION MR. DE PUTY SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Vital. MR . JAMES D. WALDlliG (St. Vital) : Mr. Speak er , I move seco nde d by the Honourable Member for Ste . Rose, that the Report of the Committee be recei ved. MOTION pre sented and carried . MR . DE PUTY SP EAKER: The hour of adjournment having arrived the House is now adjourned and will stand adjourned until 2: 30 tomorrow afternoon .

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	30-3-99
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	30th 3rd hansardpdf 99.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	a294ba4968447a000a821f3de1e0af875b87fedc

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