Manitoba Hansard — 12 May 1999 (Sitting 26, 36th Legislature, 5th Session)

36-5-26

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Fifth Session- Thirty-Sixth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable Louise M. Dacquay Speaker Vol. XLIX No. 26- 1:30 p.m., Wednesday, May 12, 1999

Member ASHTON, Steve BARREIT, Becky CERILLI, Marianne CHOMIAK, Dave CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. DACQUA Y, Louise, Hon. DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary DOWNEY, James DRIEDGER, Albert DRIEDGER, Myrna DYCK, Peter ENNS, Harry, Hon. EVANS, Clif EVANS, Leonard S. FAURSCHOU, David FILMON, Gary, Hon. FINDLAY, Glen FRIESEN, Jean GILLESHAMMER, Harold, Hon. HEL WER, Edward HICKES, George JENNISSEN, Gerard KOWALSKI, Gary LAMOUREUX, Kevin LATHLIN, Oscar LAURENDEAU, Marcel MACKINTOSH, Gord MALOWA Y, Jim MARTINDALE, Doug McALPINE, Gerry McCRAE, James, Hon. McGIFFORD, Diane MciNTOSH, Linda, Hon.

MIHYCHUK, MaryAnn MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. NEWMAN, David, Hon. PENNER, Jack PITURA, Frank, Hon. PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. RADCLIFFE, Mike, Hon. REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack, Hon. RENDER, Shirley, Hon. ROBINSON, Eric ROCAN, Denis SALE, Tim SANTOS, Conrad STEFANSON, Eric, Hon. STRUTHERS, Stan SVEINSON, Ben TOEWS, Vic, Hon. TWEED, Mervin, Hon. VODREY, Rosemary, Hon. WOWCHUK, Rosann Vacant MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Sixth Legislature Constituency Thompson Wellington Radisson Kildonan Ste.

Rose Seine River Rob! in-Russell Selkirk Concordia Arthur-Virden Steinbach Charles wood Pembina Lakeside Interlake Brandon East Portage Ia Prairie Tuxedo Springfield Wolseley Minnedosa Gimli Point Douglas Flin Flon The Maples Inkster The Pas St. Norbert St. Johns Elmwood Burrows Sturgeon Creek Brandon West Osborne Assiniboia St. James River East Riel Emerson Morris Lac du Bonnet River Heights Transcona Niakwa St. Vital Rupertsland Gladstone Crescent wood Broadway Kirkfield Park Dauphin La Verendrye Rossmere Turtle Mountain Fort Garry Swan River St. Boniface Political Affiliation N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C.

P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. Lib. Lib. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P.

11 77 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Wednesday, May 12, 1999 The House met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES Committee of Supply Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (Chairperson): Madam Speaker, the Committee of Supply has considered certain resolutions, directs me to report progress and asks leave to sit again. I move, seconded by the honourable member for La Verendrye (Mr. Sveinson), that the report of the committee be received. Motion agreed to. MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS Manitoba Day Hon.

Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, I have a statement for the House with copies for members. It is my pleasure to draw the attention of the honourable members to the fact that today is Manitoba Day. May 12 marks the 12 9th bir thday of our province, and with the new millennium soon upon us, this is a most appropriate occasion to reflect on the achieve ments of Manitoba and its people. Manitoba entered this century as a young province, the western frontier of a still-growing nation. We were brash, bold and full of prom ise.

Our doors were open to the world as we invited men and women to come share our dream of a dynamic and pro sperous community, and we still do. Just a few minutes ago, right in our beautiful Legislative Building at the heart of Canada, 38 people took the oath of citizenship and became Canada's newest citizens. We welcome them to share in the opportu nities of our communities, and we share with them the responsibility of being this province's stewards for the next generation.

The citizenship ceremony reaffirms the unbridled optimism of Manitoba's early years and the courageous spirit of our aboriginal communities and of the pioneers that drove us forward with great energy into the 20th Century with a sense of pride and confidence that has never diminished. Down through the generations, Manitobans have come together to build, to share and to dream of a better future for our children. To achieve this great legacy has meant facing great challenges from many sources: war, depression, flood, storm, drought.

We have faced them all as a community, struggling side by side to preserve the legacy and enhance it for those who follow after us. It is therefore appropriate that on Manitoba Day I also share with you the names of the people and organizations who won Prix A wards last night. Since 19 88, our provincial government has honoured Manitobans who have contributed to the province in the areas of culture, heritage, recreation and multi culturalism.

Yesterday's awards were presented to Bill and Shirley Loewen for their commitment and generosity towards the preservation and enrichment of Manitoba's French-Canadian and Metis heritage. The Western Canada Aviation Museum volunteers received an award for their support of an institution that has grown into one of the largest collections of aviation history in the nation. Sharon Reilly was honoured for her work as curator of history and technology at the Manitoba Museum of Man and Nature. * (1 335 ) The Centre du patrimoine received an award.

This Societe historique de Saint-Boniface project ensures that a significant part of

11 78 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 12 , 19 99 Manitoba's history is preserved and made available to future generations through the building of a state-of-the-art archival facility. The new centre is the repository of Francophone and Metis archival material of prov incial and national significance. Finally, Jean Oscar Guiboche received a Prix A ward for his promotion and preservation of the heritage of aboriginal people, the voyageurs and Manitoba explorers through education.

Madam Speaker, these people and their commitment to better our commumttes exemplify the spirit that helped make Canada into the greatest nation in the world. Further more, I consider it a great privilege to speak these words that will go down in history as the final Manitoba Day statement of the 19 00s. The next time we gather to celebrate Manitoba Day, we will have hosted the 13 th Pan American Games and we will be firmly in the year 2000.

I would like to close out this era by thanking all of Manitoba's families for the tremendous foundation of achievement, development, com passion and community service they have built recently and over many generations. Our province is a better place because of your con tinued commitment to turn visions into reality and that is a tremendous thing to celebrate on Manitoba Day. I urge all Manitobans to enter the year 2000 with renewed confidence and optimism and a commitment to ensure that Manitoba's future will always be greater than its past. Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. Ms.

Diane McGifford (Osborne): Madam Speaker, I would like to begin by thanking the Premier for his statement and congratulate his government for continuing the tradition which New Democrats initiated when we were in government. I refer, of course, to recognizing and celebrating Manitoba Day. I was pleased to be present at the Prix Manitoba A wards, and I and my caucus certainly join the Premier in congratulating all winners. Today, May 12 , 19 99, marks the 12 9th anniversary of our province.

On May 12, 18 70, The Manitoba Act created the province of Manitoba and on May 12 , 19 66, Manitoba's official flag was dedicated and unfurled. Subsequently, former Premier Howard Pawley designated May 12 as Manitoba Day because this date is significant in the history of our province. Yet today we would do well to remember our larger history, to remember that the aboriginal members of this Legislature and the aboriginal people thro ughout our province have at least 12 ,000 years of Manitoba history, of which most of us know very little.

We might share in this history through formal study or perhaps by hearing aboriginal elders and joining in their celebrations. We might imaginatively recreate the past, viewing it through the mind's eye: aboriginal people at The Forks or on the buffalo hunt or on the traplines; aboriginal people hunting for food, battling the cold, fighting floods or prairie fires; Portage and Main when there were no buildings; the tall grasses on the prairies when the prairies were virgin; Riding Mountain before it was a national park. My point is that 18 70 is a construct, an artifice of sorts.

We have agreed to recognize this date as important and it is important, but we should remember that it is only a marker and on the other side of that marker, there are other stories, ancient, rich, alive and full, the stories of our aboriginal peoples. We might today as well dwell on the ways in which the present can reconstruct the past and recast our history.

Living in the present and with an awareness of the ways in which colonialism and racism have distorted aboriginal traditions and history, we have a duty to cut through these distortions, revisit the past and take a clearer, fairer, more honest and respectful version to our schools and universities. We have the same duty to the ethnic groups and immigrants who have come to our province to make better lives for themselves and for their children and who, at the same time, have made a better province for all Manitobans.

Because of all our people Manitoba can boast of economic prosperity, social diversity and cultural richness. Together we have made Manitoba a fine place to live, to raise our

May 12 , 19 99 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 11 79 children and to grow old. Two years ago, the defining moment in our history was the flood of the century, an event that tied us to the past, to 18 26 and to 19 50 and the other years lost to the past because they were not written down but are alive in the imagination which transcends dates and places. May 12 , 19 97, like May 12 , 18 70, is alive in the present because we know this year is two years after the flood of the century, a time when spring came early, allowing us to dare the frost and plant our flowers and vegetables before May 24.

History then, our past, ties us to the present and to the future as we all wonder about next year. * (1 340) Unfortunately for Manitobans, respect for history has not always characterized this Premier's (Mr. Filmon) administration. We regret that this government has denigrated Manitoba history by its neglect of Canadian history. First, Canadian history was removed as a required course in our high schools and then reintroduced as a pale shadow of what it should be.

The hiatus in the teaching of Canadian history has meant a backward, outdated curriculum which has not kept pace with major historical events or with other jurisdictions. Still today, as we celebrate Manitoba history, let us transcend this anomaly and remember that we are really celebrating Manitoba peoples, remembering the past, living the present and dreaming the future. We are linked through time and space, living our myths and formulating the stories which, by defining who we are, become our history. Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): I would seek leave ju st to add a few comments on this very auspicious day.

Madam Speaker: Does the honourable member for Inkster have leave? Some Honourable Members: Leave. Madam Speaker: Leave has been granted. Mr. Lamoureux: It is with great pleasure that I rise today on behalf of members of the Liberal Party to pay tribute to this very auspicious day. The United Nations for years past has said Canada is the best country in the world to live. Well, we will go one step further and say Manitoba is the best province to be in Canada. An Honourable Member: That is a vote of confidence if I ever heard one, Kevin. Mr.

Lamoureux: Madam Speaker, it is not necessarily meant as a vote of confidence for the government. We are talking about the province which we all call home and the province in which many people would like to be able to call home. Hopefully, we will see more and more people calling the province of Manitoba home. We make reference to our First Nations people as the people who were here first. If we take a look at Manitoba, as in all of Canada, it is something in which every year there are more and more immigrants who come to our beautiful province.

It is, in essence, what has made us what we are today, whether it is individuals who have come from the Ukraine, to the more recent immigration waves that come from the Philippines, the Punjab, Asia, Poland. Our culture is so diverse, our heritage is so rich, that we should be very proud of the contributions that all members have made to our community. At one time I was the multicultural critic for our party, and I would go out and about and meet with many of the different groups. We always talked about the importance of the many different cultures. I was hoping to be at the citizenship swearing-in ceremony.

I understand that was a little bit earlier today. I have had the opportunity to participate and, you know, it is a very humbling experience to witness individuals take their oath and their citizenship. We have so much to look forward to as Canadians but, in particular, as Manitobans, and when we see a day like today where we should appreciate what we do have, it is worthy of taking a moment of our time just to make mention of all those wonders that we have in the province of Manitoba. * (1 345)

11 80 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 12 , 19 99 I had discussions with members in terms of you know, this building is a very grand, beautiful building. One of the things that I think would be an appropriate thing to do is in the Pool of the Black Star to see-and you go around the steps where we have the names of the different aboriginal reserves, I believe it is, that are along the stairs.

Well, maybe what we should be doing is designating that area as a multicultural room where we can actually see contributions from the many different immigration waves to the province, much like when we have tourism, many thousands of tourists who come to our province. They come to this building because of its majestic appearance and so forth . The tour guides do a wonderful job of explaining the building-to designate the Pool of the Black Star, as we know it, Madam Speaker, as something that clearly shows Manitoba's history of immigration, I think would be a positive thing.

I look to the government to give the idea some thought, that we need to do what we can in terms of promoting our culture, our heritage. We are, in fact, a very young province. It is with great pleasure, and I thank members for allowing me to pay a special tribute to today, given it being Manitoba Day. Thank you. TABLING OF REPORTS Hon. Jack Reimer (Minister of Housing): Madam Speaker, I would like to table the 1999- 2000 Departmental Expenditures for Manitoba Housing. Hon.

Mike Radcliffe (Minister of Labour): Madam Speaker, I, too, am pleased to table Supplementary Information for Legislative Review for the Department of Labour for the year 19 99-2000. Introduction of Guests Madam Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, first, I would like to introduce two delegations in the Speaker's Gallery this afternoon. There is a delegation from Ukraine led by Mykhaylo Stepanov, member of the Parliament of Ukraine. This delegation is in Manitoba this week under the auspices of the Canada-Ukr aine Legislative Co-operation Proj ect, studying pensions and social policy.

Also seated in the Speaker's Gallery this afternoon we have the Honourable Judy Bradley, Minister of Highways and Transportation from Saskatchewan. Also, seated in the public gallery this afternoon, we have 16 visitors from Red River College Language Training Centre under the direction of Mr. Tom Eischen. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable member for Br oadway (Mr. Santos). On behalf of all honourable members, welcome you this afternoon. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Child Development Clinic Physician Resources Mr.

Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Madam Speaker, the Child Development Clinic located at the Children's Hospital is responsible for assessment and diagnosis for preschool kids. It deals with autism, fetal alcohol syndrome, development delays and other absolutely valuable services for kids before they go to school. There is a six-to eight-month delay at that centre, and the doctor situation is very serious. I would like to ask the Premier: what impact is the existing doctor situation at that centre going to have on an already existing delay for our preschool kids? Hon.

Eric Stefanson (Minister of Health): To address that very issue, additional resources were provided starting last year. I think, as the member opposite knows, the Winnipeg Hospital Authority received some $385 ,000 to provide for five and a half additional speech therapists, additional audiologist and additional support. As well, there has been an additional $950,000 provided to our regional health authorities right across Manitoba, to all of the regional health authorities, again to address this very important issue of providing the services necessary to bring those waiting lists down. * (135 0) Mr.

Doer: The minister did not answer the question. I asked specifically about the doctors

May 12, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1181 at the centre. As we understand it from the information we have received from parents, there are two and a half doctors at that centre. One doctor is on sick leave; another doctor has given notice a number of months ago that they are leaving in June. The waiting lists are already six to eight months for those preschool kids, and there is a decision that has been made not to replace the doctor that is leaving in June. I would like to ask the minister: why has that decision been made?

Why are there not funds to support that centre, and what will the impact be on families and children that need those services? Mr. Stefanson: Madam Speaker, the funds are there to support that centre, and I have just outlined for the member opposite that the funds were enhanced last year, in 1998, with an additional $385,000 in the case of the Winnipeg Hospital Authority, throughout the rest of Manitoba an additional $950,000 for all of the regional health authorities to address those very important issues of reducing waiting lists for pediatric speech therapy services.

So, again, additional resources have been provided to address that very important issue. Mr. Doer: Madam Speaker, Anne Gajerski Cauley and her son Cedric visited us today with a petition signed by 180 parents-and I will table this for the minister-who are concerned that losing the doctors will lengthen the waiting list dramatically. They want to ensure that adequate funding is there so the full-time doctor can be replaced for the kids that need those services. Madam Speaker, the WHA is one funding authority; the university is another funding authority.

Whoever has made that decision has basically determined that the doctor will not be rep laced. Will this minister take action and make sure that an already too long waiting list will not be lengthened any further with inadequate resources to hire doctors for these kids? Mr. Stefanson: Madam Speaker, again, I can only point out to the Leader of the Opposition that not only was the existing funding maintained, the funding was also enhanced by an additional $385,000 in the case of the Winnipeg region alone.

I am certainly prepared to look into the specific issue that he is referring to in terms of the individual doctor and the whole issue of the retention or recruitment, but certainly the financial resources have not only been maintained, in fact they have been enhanced. I am sure that is one of the many reasons why they chose to support and endorse our 1999 budget. *

(1355) Health Sciences Centre Operating Room Closures Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Madam Speaker, again another re-election regurg itation announcement of this government leading up to the provincial election. The government made an announcement today, and I think it was entirely appropriate that a doctor stood up at this announcement and said: Well, Mr.

Minister, finally it is fine and dandy that you are trying to start to do something in health care, but what are you going to do about the fact that the Health Sciences Centre is considering closing 50 percent of the operating rooms over the summer because of a shortage of nurses and the fact that the doctors do not want to stay around if they cannot get opera ting time? I wonder if the minister might respond to that. Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Health): Well, I thank the member for the question and he rolled in many different elements, because he did join me this morning over at St.

Boniface Research Centre for an announcement of some $29 million to increase access to diagnostic services and medical services for all Manitobans. A major part of that announcement was an additional $1.5 million to bring down waiting lists for MRI diagnostic tests. We have seen significant reductions in our diagnostic testing waiting times, Madam Speaker, whether it has been CT scans, ultrasounds or other areas. I am certainly pleased that he was able to join us for that very important announcement. He has asked this question before about HSC.

I want to remind him that when it comes to adult and pediatric operating room data for inpatient surgery, this last year alone services for adults were up by about 2 percent, pediatrics

11 82 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 12 , 19 99 were up by 7 percent. Projections from the WHA are that the volumes will continue to grow again in 19 99. As we have discussed, there is a need for some intensive care nurses. We have some 15 graduating this October through our program here in Manitoba. We certainly expect that the majo rity of them will remain in Manitoba. We are doing everything to be sure that is the case, that they will remain here to continue to fill the vacancies that are in our system.

We have indicated on many occasions that we are dedicated to bringing more nurses into our health care system. We have a number of initiatives in place to do just that. Mr. Chomiak: Madam Speaker, can the minister explain something that was told to me by a senior physician, a world-renowned physician in Manitoba whom I talked to who said the reason the doctors are leaving is because of the uncertainty of conditions in this province?

Can he answer for me what that doctor asked him today, at what was supposed to be a regurgitation of another good-news announce ment, why doctors are leaving this province because they do not trust this government, because operating time is going down because they cannot- Madam Speaker: Order, please. The question has been put. Mr.

Stefanson: The member is dead wrong, and he heard from a doctor this morning at the announcement that he was at who spoke-and he is obviously a prof essional in the whole area of diagnostic serv1cmg-very clearly to the significant reduction in waiting times for Manitobans when it comes to a number of tests right across our province, whether it be CT scans, ul trasounds or whatever other tests.

Again, with the additional resources that were announced today, those waiting lists for MRI testing will continue to go down, and that is a part of the additional resources that we continue to direct in those very important areas. I have also indicated to him very clearly, when you look at the operations for adults and for children in terms of inpatient surgery in our health care system in the city of Winnipeg, those volumes are going up, Madam Speaker. We are doing more and more services for the citizens of Manitoba.

They were up by some 2 percent for adults, up by some 7 percent for children, and the projections from the WHA are that those volumes will be up again. That is in large part because of the resources being dedicated to provide the technology, to provide the support services and so on. We do acknowledge we need more nurses. We have said that provinces right across Canada-it is not unique to our province.

We have a number of initiatives in place which this party across, I gather, is supporting because they endorsed our 19 99 budget that includes a number of initiatives to bring more nurses into our health care system in Manitoba. * (1 400) Physician Resources Recruitment/Retention Strategy Mr.

Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Madam Speaker, can this Minister of Health, whose government did not recognize waiting lists two years ago when we had a waiting-list line and only now is recognizing in an election, explain why we have lost the best pathologists in the country, why we are losing one of the best tr ained plastic surgeons in the country, why one of the best pediatric neurologists is leaving this province because they do not have faith and trust in this government's ability to plan- Madam Speaker: Order, please. The question has been put. Hon.

Eric Stefanson (Minister of Health): Absolutely, positively not true, Madam Speaker. They do have confidence and trust in this government for a number of reasons in terms of what we have done with the finances by living within our means, by paying down the debt, by having the resources to dedicate to health care where 35.5 percent of all of our spending goes to health care. This budget alone, which those members are supporting, increases health care by $19 4 million or some 10 percent, up to $2. 1 million.

Again, the resources are being dedicated to continue to recruit, maintain and retain our very important health care

May 12 , 19 99 LEGISLAT IVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 11 83 prof essionals, whether it be our nurses or whether it be doctors in a number of specialty areas. Election Call Premier's Conditions Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam Speaker, my question is for the Premier. Yesterday, and no doubt in other places in the halls of the Legislature, the Premier has been indicating that there are all sorts of conditions that he wants to see dealt with prior to this government calling the election. He cited, I understand, CUPE; he cited the nurses' vote. My question to the- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh.

Madam Speaker: Order, please. I am having difficulty hearing the question being posed. Mr. Lamoureux: My question to the Premier: can the Premier indicate for the record inside the Chamber as to what conditions he is expecting to see passed or put into place that would allow the Premier in fact to call the election come Tuesday? Hon.

Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, I find it fascinating that the member opposite and his Leader are portraying this tremendous sense of confidence about their future possibilities for election when they have, I think, about 20 candidates nominated to date out of 57, and two of the ones that they previously announced are talking to our party about running for us, so I just suggest to him that, as in anything, there is a whole variety of issues that have to be looked at.

I am consulting with many people, listening to many people, and having a variety of different discussions that will assist in making a decision. I will say, of course, that now that we have a consensus government here in the province and that we have a vote of confidence from the official opposition, obviously certain things are not nearly as crucial or as urgent. Obviously, the public will know with great confidence that there is a great commitment to working together in this House. But I suggest, Madam Speaker, that is a matter not for the discussion of this House.

Obviously, these are things that are left ultimately to the government to decide, and we take that responsibility very seriously. I am sure that in the course of the next while, he will get more and more inform ation about this. Mr. Lamoureux: Madam Speaker, I guess I look to the Premier and ask him the question in terms of does he not agree the comments that have been attributed to the Premier are in fact of significant importance to all Manitobans when he says that he wants to see the nurses' issue resolved, he wants to see the other health care unions resolved.

Is he just saying that in the hallway, or is he quite sincere that if in fact they are not resolved, and that is the question, then there is not going to be an election call? Mr. Filmon: I would be happy to repeat those statements here, Madam Speaker. I do not want to contemplate a situation in which the patients of this province are put at some risk as a result of a decision that I or my government takes. So, certainly, those are areas that are weighing on my mind as I weigh the decision. Mr.

Lamoureux: Then I wonder if the Premier can indicate, in making his decision, does he believe, if there is no election call this Tuesday, that in fact then we are looking at a fall election, that we are not going to be going any further than that. Mr. Filmon: Madam Speaker, if I can help the member for Inkster with his vacation planning, I would like to tell him that- Madam Speaker: Order, please. Point of Order Mr. Lamoureux: Madam Speaker, the Premier is definitely imputing motives. In Beauchesne's and in our rules, the Premier should not be imputing motives.

I wish I could only have half the number of holidays the Premier has, quite frankly. But having said that, I think Manitobans want to know: are we going to have a spring election with Filmon, or are we going to have a fall election with Mr. Manness? What is the scoop? I think Manitobans are interested in knowing that.

11 84 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 12 , 19 99 Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honour able member for Inkster definitely did not have a point of order. * * * Mr. Filmon: Madam Speaker, I have I think indicated that election dates have rarely, if ever, been set for July and August, and with the very busy summer

schedule here that I suggested to the media, I guess, yesterday that if it were not called in the next week or so, September would be the earliest time that an election could be called. That was just a matter of being as open as I possibly could with the people of Manitoba. So, if the member wants to have further input to the discussion, I would be happy to sit down with him at some point and find out what his views are on the matter. Grain Transportation Freight Costs Review Ms.

Rosano Wowchuk (Swan River): Madam Speaker, this morning federal Minister Collenette was in Winnipeg to announce that Arthur Kruger would be the facilitator to further the process of rail grain transport reform based on the Estey report. We were, however, disappointed that the federal minister did not agree to a freight grain rate cap review as has been called for by all organized farm organizations. If we are going to have a fair review in process, we must have base rate-line information.

I would like to ask the Minister of Highways and Transportation if he will show leadership today, and given that the federal minister will not call for this review, will he set up a process for a review of the rail line rate costs to ensure that Manitoba producers have the information that they need for this process to take place. Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Highways and Transportation): Madam Speaker, the member for Swan River and I believe the member for Dauphin (Mr.

Struthers) joined us this morning along with my colleague from Saskatchewan, the Honourable Judy Bradley, who was here for the same meeting and announcement. One of the points that was made very strongly by the federal minister today-which I take some hope in because I think we do share the same principle at least-is that if you are going to do a review of grain transportation and ensure that the No. 1 ob jective here, which is to have efficiencies that go back into the pockets of farmers across western Canada, you have to know your base and you have to have some method of ensuring that that happens.

Whether that be for the method called for by several farm organizations or the member opposite or another vehicle remains yet, I think, to be decided. But I can tell the member that part of the discussions we will have and the input that I welcome today in the process for putting some meat on the bones around the Estey report, Manitoba of course will be looking to ensure that there is a proper accounting system included in that. * (1410 ) Ms.

Wowchuk: Madam Speaker, given that the efficiencies have not been passed on to producers and it has been proven that the railways have gained up to $200 million annually, will the minister indicate more clearly whether he will facilitate the process so that we can have clear base-line numbers to start this process so that the returns can actually go back to the producers and not to the railways or to other groups but to the farmers in this province? Madam Speaker: Order, please. The question has been put. Mr.

Praznik: Madam Speaker, I welcome very much the comments of the member for Swan River where I think she has clearly acknowledged that the status quo in grain transportation has not been productive to the farmers. As was ref erred to this morning by many producer groups, the system, the current status quo system has failed, shut down in 1997 and was not adequate, so that there is an acknowledgement. I welcome the New Democrats joining with us and the work of my predecessor in ensuring change.

I can tell her that the point she makes about ensuring that this process results in savings to farmers is critically important to Manitoba, and that position will be advanced.

May 12 , 19 99 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 11 85 Ms. Wowchuk: Madam Speaker, then I would like to ask the government if they make the same commitment to ensure that in this process the powers of the Canadian Wheat Board are not undermined, as is being recommended in the Estey report. Will this government make a commitment that they will take the position that the Wheat Board must remain a strong tool for Manitoba farmers as farmers have asked for? Mr.

Praznik: Madam Speaker, the member and I sat through the same presentation this morning and a host of organizations, producer organizations, were present and made comments, and generally speaking there was an acceptance of the principles around Estey. Part of the whole issue that has to be developed, of course-and it is regrettable, it is really regrettable that the New Democrats have jumped to conclusions about this process.

What has been announced and what the governments of Saskatchewan, Manitoba and Alberta had called for was exactly what is happening this morning, is a process to flesh out the details, put some meat on the bone so that we can see exactly how this process would work before we judge it. I would hope the member for Swan River might do something unique for New Democrats and that is keep an open mind on this process. Aboriginal Health Strategy Development Mr. Oscar Lathlin (The Pas): Madam Speaker, I have some questions for the Minister of Health.

For some time now, I have been ratsmg concerns here in the House for the need of the government to reconcile the state of aboriginal health, which is still largely in a treatment mode on the state of health for nonaboriginals which has pretty well evolved to the prevention and awareness mode, in order that a more appropriate health care can be devised, one that would accommodate aboriginal people no matter where they live in this province. I would like to ask the minister if he has a plan that would accommodate and achieve what I have just described. Hon.

Eric Stefanson (Minister of Health): Well, Madam Speaker, we have certainly been continuing to work on an aboriginal health strategy. I have had an opportunity to review many elements of that. It obviously is some thing that requires the co-operation of a number of individuals and organizations, certainly the aboriginal community itself, obviously the federal government because of their responsibilities in the case of Fir st Nations people on reserves and so on. But again, there are various elements of that strategy that I certainly will be prepared to share with my colleague opposite and others very shortly.

Nursing Shortage Northern Manitoba Mr. Oscar Lathlin (The Pas): My other question to the same minister, Madam Speaker, is that I would like the minister to advise this House as to what he has done so far to resolve the critical nursing shortage in northern Manitoba's northern nursing stations which serve largely aboriginal people. Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Health): Again, Madam Speaker-and it really is unfortunate, in many respects, that we do end up with jurisdictional issues between the two levels of government.

I certainly hope we can get to the point where that is no longer the case when it comes to meeting the health care needs of Manitobans, all Manitobans, and certainly Fir st Nations people on reserves. In terms of the issue that he raises, that issue has been raised by some reserves as a critical issue, as an important issue, and we are certainly working with the federal government to resolve that issue. Mr. Lathlin: My last question, Madam Speaker, is to the same minister.

Perhaps then he would like to tell this House if he will use some of that $7-million nursing recruitment and retention fund that he originally armounced to address this very serious nursing shortage in northern nursing stations that service Fir st Nations. Mr. Stefanson: Well, I thank the member for the question, and I am certainly prepared to look

11 86 LEGISLAT IVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 12 , 19 99 very seriously at that, Madam Speaker. The whole objective of that fund is to bring more nurses into our system, to keep more nurses in our system, whether it is on reserve or anywhere else in Manitoba. I am certainly prepared to look at utilizing that fund to also assist in that area in terms of providing the required nursing services on reserves throughout Manitoba. Education System Basic French Program Enrollment Ms.

Jean Friesen (Wolseley): Madame Ia presidente, je voudrais poser une question au ministre de !'Education statistiques de-j'attends le ministre, Madame. Madame Ia presidente, je peux Ia poser en anglais aussi, s'il le pretere . Madame Ia presidente, les statistiques du Bureau de !'education franyaise nous indiquent qu'il y a un declin des inscriptions d'eli�ves aux cours de franyais de base de presque 20 pour cent.

Je voudrais demander au ministre de !'Education s'il pense que c'est une vraie politique educative pour Ia prochaine generation de Manitobains. [Translation] Madam Speaker, I would like to ask a question of the Minister of Education. The statistics of-I am waiting for the minister, Madam. Madam Speaker, I can also ask it in English if he prefers. Madam Speaker, the statistics of the Bureau de !'education franyaise indicate to us that student enrollment in basic French courses has declined by almost 20 percent.

I would like to ask the Minister of Education if he believes that this is a true educational policy for the next generation of Manitobans. Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Education and Training): As I hear through the translation, Madam Speaker, I think that the honourable member's question does call for an opinion from me, and sometimes I wonder if the honourable member wants my opinions, because they are not always ones that she shares, in any event.

But I am pleased to preside over a depart ment that has made significant strides in recent years in partnership with the Franco-Manitoban community to increase emphasis and pro gramming in the areas of French language education at all levels. Ms. Friesen: Madam Speaker, then would the minister confirm that enrollment in the basic French courses rose steadily during the 1980s and that it began its decline in 19 89 and registered its steepest decline after the introduction of the New Directions curriculum document with its much more rigid timetabling? That is the cause of it. Would the minister confirm that? Mr.

McCrae: I certainly do not accept that. Children of whichever language group in Manitoba have to make their way in the Canada of the future and the Manitoba of the future, and parents of Francophone children as well as Anglophone children are extremely interested in knowing that their children are attending schools where there are standards, something that may be somewhat foreign to the honourable members opposite and something for which their support is questionable.

But, Madam Speaker, I am telling you that the future depends on an education system today that has within it standards and something that shows us that we are meeting those standards. Whether you are getting an education in French or in English, you still have a real world to work in, in the future, and to live in and to share with our fellow citizens. I think that is something that the support of honourable members opposite for having standards in our system is very questionable indeed. * (14 20) Ms.

Friesen: Madam Speaker, would the minister tell the House what plans he has to deal with the situation where we have 20 percent fewer students across Manitoba taking basic French courses, impor tant in a new global economy? This was drawn to the attention of his

May 12 , 19 99 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 118 7 department over a year ago. Will he tell us what plans he has? Mr. McCrae: One way to ensure declining interest in French language education is to ensure that there are no standards, which seems to be something that is supported by honourable members opposite, Madam Speaker. We stand for having standards, and we stand for achieving those standards, whether it be in the French language or the English language of instruction in Manitoba. Honourable members opposite's questions demonstrate clearly they do not support standards in education.

We clearly disagree on that point. Physician Resources Female Practitioners Ms. Diane McGifford (Osborne): Madam Speaker, today we heard about doctors who say that they have no reason to stay in Manitoba. This is not news to us. We already know this. As well, studies tell us that female physicians have particular problems in establishing their practices, and there is a particular problem in the recruitment and training of female physicians. At the same time, Manitoba is suf fering from a serious scarcity of female doctors, and of course most women want female doctors.

So my question for the Minister of Health is- Madam Speaker: Order, please. Would the honourable member please pose her question now. Ms. McGifford: Yes, Madam Speaker. To the Minister of Health: is it not about time that someone actually sat down and read the physician resource plan developed by Manitoba Health and by Manitoba physicians and actually addressed the issues of recruitment and retention and followed the advice offered in this document on recruiting and training, particularly of female physicians? Hon.

Eric Stefanson (Minister of Health): Fir st of all, Madam Speaker, the number of physicians in Manitoba has remained quite stable over the last 10 years at just over 2,000, so to try and portray that we are losing physicians and that we have a major physician retention and recru itment problem is absolutely wrong.

I have certainly had the chance to meet with a number of the organizations, the organization for family physicians, the organizations representing various doctors and so on, and again we continue to look at all kinds of initiatives to retain as many of our graduates as possible, certainly from our Faculty of Medicine, to continue to retain as many as we can. I have been provided inform ation that the majority of this year's graduating class has one example of anesthetists choosing to stay in Manitoba.

So again, we continue to focus on doing just that, being sure that we keep a good number of the people graduating from our Faculty of Medicine to provide the services here in the prov ince of Manitoba. Ms. McGifford: Madam Speaker, I asked the minister to address the question of the training and retention of female physicians for Manitoba women who want female physicians. He has not answered the question, not even begun to answer the question. Mr. Stefanson: I believe there are more female physicians than ever before in the province of Manitoba.

Certainly keeping physicians in total, male or female, is something that is very important. Those people who come through our educational facilities, who come through our Faculty of Medicine, I believe it is incumbent . and important for all of us to keep as many of those graduates here in our province of Manitoba. I believe fundamentally the majority of them want to stay in the prov ince of Manitoba. I have also had a chance to meet with organizations representing family physicians.

We have had an opportunity as a government to address a number of the issues that are very important to women and to women who are family practitioners. We will continue to do just that to make sure that the Faculty of Medicine continues to be a very positive career opportunity for both men and women in the province of Manitoba. Ms. McGifford: I guess the minister simply. does not have a plan. Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honour able member for Osborne was recognized for a final supplementary question.

11 88 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 12, 19 99 Ms. McGitTord: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I would like to ask the Minister of Health: given recent statements in the jo urnal Health Policy, and specifically in the

article Can Women Change the Health Care Agenda?, I would like to ask the minister if he can make a commitment to this House today to train not only more specialists but also more female specialists to ensure that there are female specialists and specialists in this province. We know we have no- Madam Speaker: Order, please. The question has been put. Mr. Stefanson: Madam Speaker, again, I repeat for the member, we certainly are focused very much on retaining the majo rity of our graduates through our Faculty of Medicine. We have more female medical practitioners in our province than we have ever had in history.

It certainly is an excellent career opportunity for both men and women. I have met with family physicians; I have met with female physicians. We continue to address a number of the issues that are of concern to them, whether it be issues dealing with women's health care issues or whether it is with the whole issue of how we compensate our doctors through our tariffs and through our fees.

Again, we have been listening to family practitioners, we have been listening to female family practitioners as to what are the things that we can continue to do to make practising medicine here in the province of Manitoba a very positive and rewarding experience for them. Seniors Housing Tenant Associations Ms. Marianne Cerilli (Radisson): Madam Speaker, I visited the other day a tenants association from the seniors public housing at 101 Marion Street.

They raised concerns with me about everything from the lack of supports for seniors living there to the fact that they are paying twice for hydro, they have had rent increases, there is a lack of maintenance including basic things like wheelchair accessibility for the main floor washrooms.

I want to ask the Minister of Housing why this tenant association and its president, who have been organizing more than 25 events for seniors, once the tenants organization started asking questions about the management of public housing, they have been told to close shop and have been audited, shutting down all of the services that they provide for seniors. Hon. Jack Reimer (Minister of Housing): Madam Speaker, one of the great pluses in regard to the Housing portf olio is the fact of working with tenants associations, and I encourage tenants associations to be formed in all of my tenants buildings.

The idea behind the tenants association is to have this type of dialogue. It is to bring forth concerns and expressions of concern and change that they feel are necessary in their complex or in their building that they are living in. As to 101 Marion, if there are specific problems that the member is aware of , I am certainly willing to look at them and try to address them in the best interests of the tenants of that complex, Madam Speaker. * (14 30) Ms. Cerilli: Madam Speaker, the tenants association that has been operating there has raised these concerns with the government.

I want to ask the government why is it when they start asking questions about their management, that the president is apparently evicted or the percentage of seniors for eviction [inaudible] have your deputy minister hand delivering a letter to the president of the tenants association. Is this what your deputy minister does? Mr. Reimer: Madam Speaker, not taking into consideration the various accusations that the member has brought forth, I would have to look into the specifics, whether this individual is leaving on his own or he or she has been terminated for cause.

I am not totally familiar with the case in regard to the one individual as regards his or her termination at this building. I certainly will look into it for the member for Radisson and report back to her. Venture Capital Funds Board Nominees Mr. Tim Sale (Crescentwood): Madam Speaker, the Vision Capital Fund and Manitoba

May 12 , 19 99 LEGISLA TIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 11 89 Capital Fund blew through over $10 million in losses due to bankruptcies in companies they were funding in the last 12 or 14 months. I wonder if the Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism can tell the House today who his nominees are on the boards of those two capital corporations to represent the interests of the public sector in the province and the funds that have been given those corporations. Hon.

Mervin Tweed (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): Madam Speaker, I would just like to inform the member opposite that in '94 the task force identified the need in Manitoba for risk capital, and the companies and corporations such as Vision and Venture were brought in. I would be more than happy to provide the answers for the member in Estimates, which we will be going to soon. Mr.

Sale: Madam Speaker, will the minister who apparently does not even know who is safeguarding the province's interest in these funds, the people who are presiding over which have lost about $10 million in the last 14 months, will he tell the House what instructions have been given to the representatives of the province on this board to stop the losses that have been taking place of Manitobans' money in the unprofitable bankrupt companies that have gone belly-up in the last 14 months? Mr.

Tweed: Madam Speaker, collectively the four provincial government-sponsored risk capital pools, Vision, Crocus, Manitoba Capital and ENSIS, have invested more than $10 0 million in Manitoba-based, small-and medium sized businesses. Just a point on that is that the reason and the benefits of this is that in jobs the return is over 23 percent, sales increased by 31 percent, so we see it as a good investment for all Manitobans. Again, I would be happy to elaborate further in Estimates in the near future. Madam Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has expired.

Speaker's Ruling Madam Speaker: I have a ruling for the House. On April 22, 19 99, the honourable member for Sturgeon Creek (Mr. McAlpine) raised a point of order about the honourable member for Transcona (Mr. Reid) not directing his comments through the Chair during debate of Bill 17. Having read the Hansard transcript, it is evident that the honourable member for Sturgeon Creek did have a point of order. The honourable member for Transcona repeatedly addressed his comments directly to the honourable Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship (Mrs. Vodrey) rather than directing his comments through the Chair.

MEMBERS' STATEMENTS 55-Plus Games Mr. Denis Rocan (Gladstone): It gives me great pleasure to announce that the Manitoba Public Insurance-Manitoba Society of Seniors 55 Plus Games will be held in Carman on June 15 , 16 and 17. These games are very important to many seniors in Manitoba They look forward to the friendly competition and the opportunity to socialize with seniors from across our province. In order to reach these finals, seniors must first compete in regional play-downs, with the top four winners going on to the provincial games. Last year over 1, 000 seniors attended the games in Gimli.

Carman, this year's host community, has been busy organizing and planning this event for many months. The hosting of these games involves the whole community and Carman has certainly met this challenge with great enthusiasm. It does not matter whether you are one of the competitors or an enthusiastic cheer leader, you are sure to have a great time. The welcome mat is out and I know that everyone who comes to Carman this June or any time will receive a warm welcome and enjoy their friendly hospitality. OCN Graduates Mr.

Oscar Latblin (The Pas): Madam Speaker, I am proud to rise today to share, with you and the Assembly, experiences I had attending graduation ceremonies in Vancouver,

11 90 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 12 , 19 99 British Columbia, on May 3, and on May 7 in Calgary, Alberta. In Vancouver, I was proud to witness the convocation of Reverends Hagar Head and Lydia Constant with degrees in the Master of Divinity program. In Calgary, I was privileged to attend Charles Jebb's graduation from the City of Calgary Police Service training program. Indeed, I felt moved and extremely proud to see Mr. Jebb marching with the rest of the troop. All three graduates are members of OCN, and I am sure that all of OCN is proud as I am of the accomplishments of these individuals.

Job well done, Hagar, Lydia and Charles. Thank you. Driver Education Program Mr. Jack Penner (Emerson): Madam Speaker, it gives me a great deal of pleasure to indicate to the House today that the Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation will undertake two important new initiatives that will enhance our efforts to create a new generation of roadwise Manitobans. First of all, fees for the highly successful High School Driver Education Program will be cut in half from $10 0 to $50. The drivers ed program is a wonderful program that teaches young people how to be safe and responsible drivers.

It aims to create a positive driving attitude amongst young people, and in producing safe drivers, this program ultimately benefits all Manitobans. By cutting rates in half beginning of September, MPI believes that enrollment will rise to 15 ,000 students by the year of 2004. MPI will also be introducing a roadwise children's traffic club starting in the fall. The program will be taught to 18 ,000 children in 572 days starting in September. This program will teach young Manitobans to recognize potential road hazards and instill safety habits in them at an early age.

This is a joint initiative between Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation and the government's Department of Education and will comprise several modules: safety awareness, road and vehicle dangers, bus ridership and personal safety. As an MPI board member, I am very proud that we are reducing the cost for our young people to participate in the driver ed program and increase their driving skills.

It is my belief that this program has demonstrated its effectiveness in ensuring that young Manitobans can be trained to be safe drivers and therefore save the general public a huge impact on the driver costs and repairing. I believe that it is never too late to train young people and to ensure that their driving habits will be sustained and enhanced over the years. West Broadway Community Cleanup Ms.

Jean Friesen (Wolseley): I would like to ask all members of this House to join me in congratulating the residents of part of my community, West Broadway, for the very successful annual community cleanup that they held on May I. Madam Speaker, two weekends ago the West Broadway community swept, cleaned up the debris of a long winter, brushed the sidewalks, cleaned up the back lanes, removed all the excess material from the large garbage cans.

It is a community initiative which is very well supported and organized by businesses, by the community police, and it is one that contributes certainly to the safety of the community through the rest of the year.

I particularly want to congratulate the students from Gordon Bell High School who did a lot of the back-breaking work on the day before the Saturday, on the Friday afternoon, and to congratulate the West Broadway Neighbour hood Centre and the people who organized this, as well as the residents and indeed people from outside the community, friends of West Broadway, who came to help in this regular and now much-looked-forward-to community event. Thank you. An Honourable Member: Go ahead. Madam Speaker: Order, please. Today is Wednesday. The rotation is two government, three of ficial opposition. * (1 440)

May 12 , 19 99 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 11 91 Urban Aboriginal Strategy Mr. George Hickes (Point Douglas): I just want to put a few comments on record, because I was on a radio program yesterday pertaining to the so-called urban aboriginal strategy that was announced. From the response of most of the panel that were there, there was a lot of disappointment.

I would like to make my comments on record that I believe that this is just an election gimmick, election ploy by this desperate government, trying to get by the window of an election because every year-I have been here since 19 90-I have been asking this government for an urban aboriginal strategy and just prior to an election this government announces more study, more consultation. On that panel was the president of the Manitoba Metis Federation, David Chartrand, who says no, we were not consulted; we were only asked to make a presentation, not as a true partnership.

Also, the Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs-a representative was there-stated exactly the same thing. That is what I suspected all along, that the true leaders of the aboriginal community that are elected by their membership-just like every member in here is elected by our constituents to be the voice of the people who elected us. We do not get 10 0 percent of the votes, but we are the voice of the people who elected us to bring their issues forward.

The government should have had the decency and the respect of the elected aboriginal leadership to go and meet with the leadership and say please, we are trying to develop an urban aboriginal strategy, please go to your membership and talk to the membership and get your membership involved because we respect you as a leader, we want your true input, instead of going out and saying we are developing a true aboriginal strategy, when it is only to get by the election window.

If the government was serious, they would not have cut funding to friendship centres, BUNTEP, Access, New Careers, the northern fishers' subsidy, northern highways and no abandonment of the inner city housing programs, the emergency home repair programs. If the government was serious, they would have rectified those and put the funding back in first, then develop a true aboriginal strategy with aboriginal people. Thank you, Madam Speaker. ORDERS OF THE DAY Hon. Darren Praznik (Government House Leader): Madam Speaker, I would ask if you could call for second reading Bill 23.

I do not think this will take more than a few moments to do, after which we will be going into Committee of Supply to consider Estimates. I will then move the motion. SECOND READINGS Bill 23-The Order of Manitoba Act Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the honourable Minister of Environment (Mrs. Mcintosh), that Bill 23, The Order of Manitoba Act;

Loi sur l'Ordre du Manitoba, be now read a second time and be referred to a committee of this House. Motion presented. Mr. Filmon: Madam Speaker, on Manitoba Day I am pleased to be able to present for the consideration ofthe House Bill 23, The Order of Manitoba Act. Throughout the history of the province we have taken the time to recognize those within our society who have nurtured and laid the foundation for our communities, provided the necessary leadership in order to stimulate economic activity and enhance our quality of life.

In 19 57, the Order of the Buffalo Hunt was established by the Campbell administration. It has been symbolic of our province's recognition for excellence in achievement within our society. At times it was used for ceremonial and promotion purposes. However, over the course of the last 10 years we have insured that the high standards on which the Order of the Buffalo Hunt was designed have been maintained in selecting recipients. Madam Speaker, Bill 23 builds on these strengths and establishes in legislation an order comparable in intent to the Order of Canada and the six other provincial orders which already

11 92 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 12 , 19 99 exist. The objective of the Order of Manitoba is to recognize through the establishment of a formal honour individuals who have demonstrated excellence and achievement in any field of endeavour benefiting in an outstanding manner the social, cultural, or economic well being of Manitoba and its residents. With the establishment of the Order of Manitoba we are joining six other provinces who have moved to formalize the recognition they give their citizens. The Order of Manitoba will be in the official list of Canadian honours.

As the Lieutenant Governor stated in the Speech from the Throne, he has accepted the position of Chancellor of the Order. Appoint ment to the order will be based on submissions made to the Order of Manitoba Advisory Council. Membership on this council will see members automatically appointed by virtue of their office, namely, the Chief Justice of Manitoba, the Clerk of the Executive Council, and the President of the University of Manitoba, Brandon University, or the University of Winnipeg, each serving for a term of two years on a rotating basis in the order that they are listed.

Four additional appointments of prominent Manitobans will complete the composition of the advisory counc il. The advisory council will recommend appointees to the chancellor for induction. Madam Speaker, as we developed as a province we modified and enhanced our practices and traditions, always remembering the past and looking to the future with confidence and conviction. Through the establishment of the Order of Manitoba we will recognize those who helped build our province and contributed to the strength of our society.

We should look at this order as another symbol of recognizing what makes us proud to be Manitobans. It is a vehicle through which we can recognize those within our community who challenge us to have a renewed sense of pride, optimism, and confidence in our province. As we approach the end of the century and the start of a new century it is timely to proceed with this legislation to honour our citizens. Madam Speaker, I commend this bill to the House. Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the member for Wolseley (Ms. Friesen), that the debate on Bill 23 be now adjourned.

Motion agreed to. Hon. Darren Praznik (Government House Leader): Madam Speaker, before I move the motion to go into Committee of Supply, I would ask if you could canvass the House to see if there would be leave to waive private members' tonight. I know that there was always co operation between the parties when events were being held. I certainly, on the record, would extend the same offer to members opposite when their party has a function.

Madam Speaker: Is there leave of the House to waive private members' hour? [agreed] Can I just clarify if the adjournment then will take place at five o'clock. [agreed] * (14 50) Mr. Praznik: Madam Speaker, I would then move, seconded by the honourable Minister of Environment (Mrs. Mcintosh), that Madam Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Most Gracious Majesty. Motion agreed to. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY (Concurrent Sections) EDUCATION AND TRAINING Mr. Chairperson (Gerry McAlpine): Will the Committee of Supply please come to order.

When the committee last sat, the critic for the of ficial opposition was making her opening remarks and has five minutes remaining. The honourable member for Wolseley, to complete your opening remarks. Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley): I will simply summarize I think by saying that the government's policy on education, I believe, is one that has led to some serious difficulties for parents, for teachers and for families in Manitoba. I believe that it is a narrowly conceived education policy, that it has led to

May 12 , 19 99 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 11 93 reductions in a number of areas and that it has led to increased taxation at the property tax level which has put considerable hardship on, I am sure, many of the minister's constituents as well as those of mine. I think we are looking at user fees, unequal education across the province and in many ways a very inappropriate lack of accountability on the part of the department. The government has said a number of times that it would be producing an indicators report, and for 11 years we have seen nothing. This is not something that has to be invented.

It is something which is done in other provinces very simply, but this has become a government which is extremely secretive and which is unprepared and refuses after 11 years to produce an indicators report for the benefit of Manitobans so that they can see at least what changes are happening in education. Some of them may be positive and the minister may want to have presented them in that way, but so far they have refused to.

In post-secondary education it is a government which has a fee policy that is left open to the market and which I believe is affecting the futures of many young people quite seriously, a government which before the last election was prepared to put a cap on at 5 percent and before this election is not prepared to even look at any cap until the increases in tuition fees go to double digits. So, Mr.

Chairman, I think we are not looking at a rosy future in education, and I think much of this has to do with government policy, with the kinds of narrowing of the curriculum, with the way in which the curriculum has been implemented. I think the government lost a golden opportunity there to introduce good, new curriculum. Much of this curriculum is good, and it is new and is welcomed by many people in the field, but the manner in which it has been introduced, the lack of resources and the reduction in support from the department I think has not given it a fair chance.

It has also divided people within the education community one against the other, and I think that is very, very unfortunate. The government had a golden opportunity. I think it threw it away, and it did it for reasons which I can only begin to think of, but I guess, as we go through this book, we will suggest some of them.

Finally, in the special needs area, the government very successfully slid this through the last election by promising it in '93, in fact, even speaking in its annual report of 19 94 that it had begun the special needs review, and then year after year there was no reference to the special needs review.

On and on it went till the next election, and the government then began a review which was not a public review in the normal sense but was a series of focus groups which were interesting in themselves but which did not initiate a public discussion across the province on the needs of children in schools and on the needs of all the children who face difficulties in having access to public education in Manitoba.

So here we are at the next election, and the government now, I assume, is studying the special needs review report and manages to get itself through another election without having done anything in special needs and without having addressed the structural issues and the regional issues and the growing lists of waiting lists of children with special needs that have occurred as a result of their policies. So, Mr.

Chairman, I am very disappointed in this, something that we have raised over and over again, and the government has now come to a next election without having to, in fact, put forward any policy or plans. * (1 500) I regret the kinds of divisions which have occurred in Manitoba education. I regret the inequalities which are coming. I regret the loss of languages, as I spoke in the Legislature today, and I think much ·of this could have been avoided.

But we have, I believe, in the Education department-I have no way of judging this minister yet, but certainly we have seen a series of quite authoritarian ministers who ignored time after time the suggestions from the field, who ignored time after time until the year before an election the advice of their own advisory committee on education finance and who seem to close their ears to any kind of evaluation or criticism and, Mr. Chairman, I think that has done a great disservice to Manitoba education. Mr. Chairperson: I thank the honourable member for those opening comments. Under

11 94 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 12 , 19 99 Manitoba practice, debate of the Minister's Salary is traditionally the last item considered for the Estimates of the department. Accordingly, we shall defer consideration of this item and now proceed with consideration of the next line. Before we do that, we invite the minister's staff to join us at the table and ask the minister to introduce his staff present. Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Education and Training): For the moment, Mr.

Chairman, I would introduce someone I am sure is already well known to the education community in Manitoba, the Deputy Minister of Education, Mr. John Carlyle, who has been I think the deputy minister for a number of years now, and provided significant leadership not only to the department but also to the field of education in general. Mr. Chairperson: We thank the minister for that introduction. We will now proceed to line 16 .1. Administration and Finance (

b) Executive Support

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits on page 46 of the Main Estimates book. Shall the item pass? Ms. Friesen: We are on a line here which looks at policy in the department and the setting of policy. I would like to ask the minister about the response to the special needs review. Could the minister tell us what plans he has, what kind of costing he has done on the implementations of special needs, when you review what the timetable is and what kind of personnel have been allocated? Mr. McCrae: Mr.

Chairman, I thank the honourable member for identifying the special education requirements of Manitoba's children as enough of a priority to bring it forward at the very beginning of this discussion. I share her assessment that special needs in our schools must be a key priority. It was identified for me, if I did not know it already, very early in my term as minister as I made it my job to seek input from educators, parents and school business people. I learned early on that the special needs review was a matter very much on the minds of people in the system.

I think there is a general recognition, too, that the review is important, and that the government, having been the one to commission the review, should be commended for that. In addition, funding for special needs in Manitoba's schools has doubled in the past decade, which is an indication not only of support and priority on the part of the government, but also a recognition that anything that is growing by way of requirement at that rate ought deservedly to be the subject of a report of the type that we have received from the proactive organization.

The report was fairly fresh in terms of its release by the time I took office on February 5, and I made it my business to engage in discussions, as I pointed out already, but also discussions with Mr. Carlyle and members of the department to ensure that the department shared with me the view that special education requirements ought to be treated very seriously and as a priority. They, of course, agreed with that, because much work had already been done in preparation for the future. But the report is fairly well received, I think quite well received, by the education community.

I felt that, you know, just having the report and giving some lip service as to how we might implement it or when we might implement it simply would not be sufficient. I think I needed to demonstrate, not only to the general public but also to the department itself, that this remains a significant priority. So I asked Mr. Carlyle and I asked the government for some support for some early steps that could be taken that would demonstrate that we are very serious about meeting the needs of those who have special education requirements.

I was pleased to be able to come forward with an additional $2 million for this year's budget to attach to the 2.3 percent spending increase for the school system, to make it a total of 2.6 percent. But that $2 million, I am very quick to underline and underscore and emphasize, is a first step in the implementation of the Special Education Review report. I attended the MAST convention-! think the honourable member for Wolseley (Ms. Friesen) did, too-and was there for the debate with the party Leaders. Dr. Gerrard, the honourable member for Concordia (Mr. Doer) and the honourable member for Tuxedo (Mr. Filmon)

May 12 , 19 99 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 11 95 participated in that debate. They all committed themselves to implementing the special needs report. That is a good thing, because it demonstrates that there is a commitment on the part of everybody to move forward. * (1510 ) In addition to what was said that day, we have the $2 million to begin our response to that report. It is much more than simply responding to a report because there are so many different segments of the education community and the rest of the community as well who ought to be concerned about this and involved in the implementation.

It is a very multifaceted report and requires a comprehensive approach. We felt it important enough that someone of the calibre of Carolyn Loeppky could be asked to head up that unit in the department that would take this on as a singular area of responsibility, the special needs requirements in our schools. I had it brought very forcefully to my attention that this is not simply about children with special needs, this is about the whole classroom.

This is about the teachers and the parents and the whole system, because there are children who are not getting the benefits that might be available to them if we had implemented this report. So that is what we will be doing. We have set up a special unit in the department headed by Carolyn Loeppky, assist ant deputy minister, and this unit will make it their business to work with other staff in the department as well as those with whom the department works year in and year out to develop the strategies that will need to be developed to put into practice the recommen dations in the report.

Now that is a general response, and if there are specifics that I can discuss, then we can do that too. I should, before going on, introduce Gilles Richard who is a financial analyst in the Administration and Finance branch of our department, and Jim Glen. I have known Jim a little bit better over the last few years. He is an assistant deputy minister for Administration and Finance. I understand that Jim is not going to be with us for too much longer, but he has been around in government for almost 25 years. I think that people like Mr.

Glen deserve to receive some recognition for not only the years that they have put in but for the things they do during those years. I think we have come quite a distance in the Education department and in the whole education scenario. I do not agree with everything the honour able member for Wolseley has said, but none theless I do not think she says that with a view of getting at anybody other than the leadership of the government. I appreciate that. But a lot of progress has been made in these changing times, and Mr. Glen has been involved with the department all that time, and I appreciate it very much.

I thought I would mention that rather than simply just introduce him. This may be his last Estimates review process, and we wish him well. Ms. Friesen: Yes, I understood there was a retirement on the books. Congratulations and best wishes in retirement. I wonder if the minister could give us some more detail. He said that the new-I do not know whether to call it a new position, but the new unit headed by an assistant deputy minister.

Could the minister tell us what kind of staff there will be in that unit and whether that unit is to be funded out of the $2 million that the minister has initially appropriated for the funding of the special needs review? The question that I asked in the earlier question was actually the entire costing of the special needs review. Has that been done, because there certainly are numbers floating around out there. I would like to hear something from the minister on what he estimates the cost will be.

I would like a specific costing on location in the Estimates book of the $2 million for the special needs that has already been allocated. Is it, for example, simply added to individual students to be part of the Level II and Level III allocations? Is it for a particular program? Is it for dealing with professional development? How has that $2 million been allocated? Mr. McCrae: Mr. Chairman, we expect the overall cost of implementation of this report to be significant. In fact, although costing of each and every activity that might be required as a

11 96 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 12 , 19 99 result of this report is not complete-and I do not think it would be complete for some time yet. But I do know that in order to completely implement all of the recommendations, we know we are going to need something in excess of $20 million in addition to what is already in the budget, in addition to the $1 11 million already spent on special education Twenty million, it could be much more as well. At this point it is too early for us to tell what the price tag would be.

If it were that precise, I am sure it would not take several years to implement, because we would be able to implement very quickly if we knew that kind of finite detail for what it was going to cost. If we knew what it would cost, we would know what was being paid for, and so therefore there would be more precision. But that is the best I can do at this point. I would hope in our next Estimates to be more specific with the honourable member when these questions come up. I think that the other part of her question there were a number of questions, but she asked about the make-up of this review team. Mr.

Chairperson: Order, please. There has been a call for a recorded vote. The committee will adjourn to the House. The committee recessed at 3:16p .m. After Recess The committee resumed at 3:40 p.m. *

(1540) Mr. Chairperson: Order, please. Just for the committee's clarification, prior to the recess there was a reference made to adjournment instead of recess, so prior to the recess I just want to clarify that it was not an adjournment, it was in fact a recess. Prior to the recess for the vote, the committee was considering line 16.1 .(

b) Executive Support

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits on page 46 of the Main Estimates book, and the honourable Minister of Education was answering a question. Now, did the honourable minister wish to continue. Mr. McCrae: Whether it was a recess or an adjournment, we are all back together once again, Mr. Chairman. The question was whether the $2 million which we made available for special education, whether the special needs review team and their budget would be taken from that $2 million. The answer is no. Those $2 million will be distributed to the school divisions.

I do not think I said everything I needed to or should have about the team itself. At the present time the team consists of Assistant Deputy Minister Carolyn Loeppky, who heads the unit and a secretary and an administration officer and two analysts. As we address the issues set out in the report, that staffing arrangement will no doubt have to be reviewed, and the funding for various programming that takes place will also be the subject of various proposals that will come forward. We expect the proposals to come forward from divisions.

The $2 million is a formula, and it is based on the number of pupils in a given division between the ages of five and 12 , which is the group that this $2 million is intended to provide services for. Ms. Friesen: Mr. Chairman, we are actually sort of proceeding on two parallel lines of questioning, one on staff and one on money, so I will continue with that. I would like to know from the minister where the staffing is located. It is an ADM position, and I understand it has two policy analysts. Could the minister tell me which line that is on? Mr.

McCrae: The unit is made up of stafftaken from the School Programs Division who were previously involved in special needs pro gramming functions, in any event, so that the unit is taken from within the department from the School Programs Division. Ms. Friesen: Is the minister saying that the line that I would find this on is the School Programs Division, or is it the ADM line? What I am interested in is tracking this obviously in subsequent years. So where do we find this unit?

May 12 , 19 99 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 11 97 Mr. McCrae: You will not see it in this year's Estimates because the funding that we were able to secure carne late in the process. So you will not see it as a line item. The School Programs Division from which these people come to form the new unit, you will see that next year. You will see the separate line for this unit in next year's Estimates, but you will also be able to ask us about reductions in the School Programs Division, which would account for the creation of that unit. Ms.

Friesen: So essentially it is being funded out of existing resources this year, though, in fact, people-there are two analysts and an ADM who is already an ADM, two analysts who are already analysts and are listed in the School Programs Division. So in effect the Estimates to that extent do not reflect what is actually happening. Mr. McCrae: I think that would be correct. The idea here is not to enlarge the overall bureaucracy of the department, because we have some very talented people in the department who are used to the kind of outreach work that has to be done with the community.

So you will see, as I have said, the unit referred to specifically as a line item in next year's budget, but you will not see a growth in the department so much as you will see growth in activity outside the department. Now, I do not know, it may be that at some point the department will have to bring in some particular special expertise, and I cannot say that that will not happen, nor can I say today from where that expertise will come. But, to this point at least, the people who form the unit come from the department and are not additional in terms of expenditure.

The dollars that we have earmarked, we want to be used directly for programming. Ms. Friesen: To go back to the other question, which was the $2 million, the minister said it is to be used for children between the ages of five and 12 . I just want to clarify whether it is actually going to individual Level II, Level III students, or whether this is a particular program. Is it a new program or is it following existing programs in the ages five to 12 ? *

(1550) Mr. McCrae: I think we should invite Carolyn Loeppky to join us at the table, because she is already very well on top of these issues. As I said, because these are first steps and early steps at that in the response to a report-probably some kind of record had been set, I think, in terms of the speed with which we have been able to make some kind of early response. We are dealing with children between the ages referred to who are emotionally and behaviourally disadvantaged to a point that it is affecting their performance in school.

This is in the area of prevention and intervention so that it could include children at the various designated levels, but it could also include children who we could prevent from ever having to be one of those designated Levels I or even II and III. But I think that we need at this early stage to find out from divisions how they see these dollars being useful to them in their taking early steps in response to special education require ments in their divisions. And there are about 57 of them, as I understand it. When you divide $2 million amongst them, for some of them it is a relatively small amount of money.

So we are also encouraging at this early stage, because this will be very important later on, that divisions find ways to use whatever dollars that are available for special education kids. If partner ships can make the investment a better invest ment, we want to see that happen. Obviously, in some of our rural divisions where schools are far flung, it does not make much difference to the child which division they are in. If there is a regional type of program available that they can benefit from, we want to see that happen. As I say, Ms.

Loeppky and her team are doing a lot of work to get ready to deal with this in a more substantive way, but certainly I think identifying those children between the ages of five and 12 , I think everybody will agree that the earlier we can do things to prevent and to intervene to make the learning experience something positive, something effective, the more money will be available later on for those who will require on an ongoing basis inter vention on the part of the system.

11 98 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 12 , 19 99 So I think that is the whole substance of the report, and we are confident that we have the right people certainly in Ms. Loeppky to work with the system and bring about programming that will make the most sense to the greatest number of children so that we are not spinning our wheels in the education system dealing with kids who are clearly needing something more than the system has previously been able to provide for them.

Having visited in a few schools now as minister, you learn things that you do not learn when you are not a minister because you are not as focused in the same way. I have been fortunate to see the effect of some of the programming that is available. I have also been able to see the need that still has not been met. It makes you want to do something really quick. To take some kind of knee-jerk reaction is not a good idea. It might be well intentioned, but it is not a good idea.

I think by careful examination of the recommendations here which come about as a result of quite a bit of consultation with people who do know more of the answers than I do, I think by taking that approach, planning a series of measures and planning an environment in Manitoba for our children for the future and taking the time that is necessary to do that will result in the best results in the longer term. Ms. Friesen: I am still not clear where this $2 million is going. Is it, for example, money that the divisions have to apply for? Is it, for example, matching grants?

Do the divisions have to have plans in place that indicate prevention? I understand or I assume that that $2 million is on the School Programs line, but I am interested in the policy here. The minister has made a specific move in pre-electoral terms, frankly, I think, to put some money into special needs, and I would like to know exactly where it is going. An Honourable Member: That is a pretty gross assumption, and I worked for two years on that special needs review, obviously- Ms. Friesen: Mr. Chairman, I think the former Minister of Education wants to put something on the record. An Honourable Member: May I?

Ms. Friesen: Absolutely, be my guest. Mr. McCrae: As I was consulting with my deputy, I missed out on the dialogue that was going on. It is probably okay ifl did. In any event, I did hear the honourable member for Wolseley speak about pre-election measures or something like that, and I am sure we will get into a discussion of that at some point in these Estimates. Whether something happens, as the honourable member states, just before an election or just after an election or sometime between, there is never a wrong time to do the right thing for our kids. I feel very strongly about that.

As an Education minister now, I would like it to be more than $2 million. If I thought that I could get $10 million and throw it on the table and overnight everything would be all right, I would like that, but that is not the world that we work in, and the member knows that and realizes that, I know. In fact the review told us that this is really is not about money so much as it is about doing it right. The best pra ctices are referred to. We want to bring out and discover all of the possible best practices there are. The dollars that are being distributed to the divisions will be distributed upon application.

This is not a question of matching, no requirement that there be matching. Now, the reason for the require ment that there be application for this is so that our unit can work with these divisions to ensure that best practices are what are being sought after and hopefully achieved at the end of it all. This is very much a working document, this particular report. I dare say, depending on which party Leader you listen to, it is going to take anywhere from three to five years to get this accomplished, but even then I ask myself: are we really going to have the job done?

I do not know today and neither does anybody else. I do not think even Ms. Loeppky probably knows that. It is a question of making sure that we continue in our system to meet the needs. The needs today are not the same as the needs were 15 or 20 years ago or even 10 years ago. In fact, in my visits, it has been made very clear to me that each year different issues are coming

May 12 , 19 99 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 11 99 forward. Children are presenting to school with problems on a scale that we have never experienced before. This is something that is probably worthy of a study all by itself to figure out why this is happening but, I mean, I think we know enough to know that programs like EarlyStart and BabyFirst are a good direction to go in as well. * (1 600) I believe that we are going to see more attention paid on that in the future than we have in the past, and that is probably the best investment I can think of.

I remember being present at the announcement of those programs for the regional health authority in the Brandon area, and I think educators would agree with me that the sooner we get at issues related to problems for kids, the better it is going to be not only for those kids when they get into the school, but the teacher is going to be much more efficient because the teacher is going to be able to deal with a class that is more ready to take on the lessons that are part of the teacher's work. So there is no doubt in my mind.

In fact, I have been preaching this for some time in my various previous portfolios as well. Let us get at the problem. It was years ago that I became aware of the Headstart programs that have existed in other places. The startlingly positive results that come out of those really give us good justification to move in the direction we are moving with special education, not only special education but programs brought in by the Child and Youth Secretariat. Recently, I think, out of an abundance of zeal I have made the point that the Minister of Family Services (Mrs.

Mitchelson) was behind these things, but it is really the Child and Youth Secretariat. I knew that, totally a slip of the tongue, but I think it is necessary to repeat that the Child and Youth Secretariat probably needs greater visibility in our society because they bring together departments in a way that departments simply were not structured to come together in the past on their own, no comment or criticism of anybody, but the unit was, in my view, the right thing to do, because it results in things like BabyFirst.

There is other program ming like that that is out there that once they are fully operational and meeting the needs of more children we will definitely see a difference as they enter the school. But even then, we are going to see children who, whether they slip through the cracks or whether the services simply did not do the job, we are still going to have kids with emotional and behavioural and other problems in our schools. So I am very pleased that we have made a beginning on this. But I caution the honourable member, it is simply a beginning at this point.

As a minister, for me it is an expression on my part and that of my department, of good faith with all of our partners that we are definitely moving in the right direction. We have the blueprint there in the report. Ms. Loeppky and her team have already, in a very short time that their attention has been exclusively riveted on this, done a lot. I am really happy about that, because it is another little piece of comfort for me that we are definitely committed to this and we are definitely moving in the right direction.

So, yes, it is a matter that we want the divisions to apply for, because we want to see what kind of programs they are going to come forward with. We want to have and we are going to fast-track these things so that we can evaluate what they are coming forward with to determine that it is one of the best practices that we can arrive at and then, to the extent that it is appropriate in other areas in Manitoba, recommend those best practices so that we are getting the maximum value for the dollars.

We have to remember that we are dealing with little human beings here that are pretty important to the future of this province and to their own future and that of their family. So I think that there is a general understanding right around the table and well beyond that this is the right way to go. It was, after all, the government of Manitoba that commissioned the Special Education Review. The government of Manitoba paid for it. The government of Manitoba supported it. The government of Manitoba welcomed it. My predecessor very kindly left it on the desk for me.

There was not anything else on the desk when I took over but that report, a little message

1200 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 12, 19 99 from my predecessor about what is important. appreciated that too. Ms. Friesen: Well, it is good to hear the minister speak about early childhood education in that way and of the years, I think it is about 25 years at least now of research, all of it tending in the same direction on the benefits of early childhood education. I welcome this as a change in expression of policy, certainly in this department, from a minister who talked of it as an expensive frill in earlier years. It does make one wonder why the government is- Point of Order Mr.

Chairperson: The honourable Minister of Environment, on a point of order. Hon. Linda Mcintosh (Minister of Environment): Yes, Mr. Chairman, I would like to correct some inaccurate information that was just put on the record. The honourable member has said the previous minister talked about special education as an expensive frill. She is wrong. I said nursery school was a costly enhancement, which it is, an enhancement, not a frill. I never used the word "frill." I said if you want to enhance education, this is a wonderful way to enhance it, but it has a cost and we need to find the cost.

We need to fund that from other sources, which we are now doing, looking through the Children and Youth Secretariat. She is leaving a wrong impression on the record purposefully, because she knows I was talking at the time about funding it from sources other than classroom sources. So I just want to correct the deliberate false impression she is attempting to mislead the committee with. Thank. you. Mr. Chairperson: The honoura ble minister does not have a point of order. It is a dispute over the facts. *** Mr. Chairperson: The honourable member for Wolseley, to continue with your question. Ms.

Friesen: From the perspective of the field, can the minister tell me what kind of criteria are going to be or have been established for them to make their applications under? Has, for example, a letter gone out to all of the divisions that would give them a sense of what kinds of things are appropriate in this area? Mr. Peter Dyck, Acting Chairperson, in the Chair Mr. McCrae: Mr. Chairman, I am glad we got that other little matter sorted out. I think we can avoid any of that sort of thing. There are ways, I know that the honourable member for Wolseley and I and the honourable member for Assiniboia (Mrs.

Mcintosh) all know how to do that. Mr. Chairman, in regard to the question, yes, a letter has gone out to each and every division and district, and it has been sent to super intendents and chairs of school boards and student service administrators announcing the purpose of the initiative. In addition there have already been held regional information sessions to inform school divisions and districts about the purpose of the initiative, approval criteria, and we can go into more detail about the approval criteria, the approval process and the timelines for submission and approval of applications.

There is more than one department involved in this. We are going to be working with an inter-departmental team to review the proposed programs and to give feedback about the programs and to share those programs. The reason we were quick to get going on it is that it is imp ortant to make some early starts. The school year only lasts so long. We only have so much time in which to spend these dollars. I want to make sure we spend them properly, and that is why all of this has already been happening.

There is an intersectoral program review team consisting of the departments of Education, Family Services, Justice, Health and the Children and Youth Secretariat, and it is going to help review and evaluate the proposals and make recommendations to the department and to myself. This intersectoral approach to the review of proposals is going to ensure co ordination, and in some cases, enhancements to school division and district efforts. Now I know when you include all those people, there is a tendency for it to take longer and this is a concern that I would have. I simply

May 12 , 19 99 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 12 01 do not want, in the interest of collegiality and in the interest of making sure everybody's base has been touched, that it does not result in an unnecessary waste of time, because I think that is a disservice to the kids, so we have the benefit of the report which is kind of a guide for everybody, which I hope will help to speed up the process. But these are the right people for us to be working with. If we tried to do it alone, I have no doubt that there would be reason for criticism that we have left some important segment out. This is not the way to go.

It sounds cumbersome, but I think it will still be doable and it will be a better result. I am confident that the initiative will provide divisions and districts with opportunities to ameliorate negative behaviour problems by getting involved early in the students' learning experience. * (1610 ) The type of criteria that we are going to be looking for, and it is good that these questions are being asked, because anybody then can access this information and get going on proposals.

We want some evidence of research into areas of program design that will be coming forward so that we can do a quick analysis, a quick and effective analysis, with all the parties we are going to have involved and then make decisions, flow the money and get the help to the kids. We want to include other service providers, and we want everyone to know that we expect results. We do not want to be back here a year from now saying: Are we not good? We have spent all these dollars when we cannot show you that we have got some results.

And I think it is right that you should expect results when public dollars are being spent, especially when all these good people are doing their best to put programming together that will benefit these youngsters, which is what it is all about. So we do want results. We do not want to spend money unless there is an expectation of results. We simply will want to know what type of evaluation process they are using so we can have some confidence that there will be results. We do not want this to be a bureaucratic or cumbersome review.

We want it to be efficient and expeditious and that is what I want everybody to be reminded of because I think that in the past we have tried to do too much all by ourselves, or some other agency has tried to do too much all by itself, and they are not equipped. They do not have the money, the expertise, whatever. They do not have all of that and with this multisectoral, multidisciplinary approach, all the experts are recommending this these days and it is for very good reason. Ms. Friesen: Mr.

Chairman, I wonder if the minister could table the material that has been sent to the division which I anticipate gives us an indication of the criteria and the timelines and the evaluation processes. Mr. McCrae: If we can get it right away, we will; if not, we will have it for you in the morning. Ms. Friesen: Mr. Chairman, one of the issues that was raised with me which applies to both the special needs review and the at-risk task force which the government had within the system on its own account some months ago.

Both of these seemed, to the people who contacted me, to be very limited in their aboriginal participation. The special needs review had no aboriginal people on the committee of direction. It did not meet in any aboriginal communities. I am not thinking of reserves particularly, but I am thinking of areas where schools are shared between reserves and Metis communities. The same was true, I understand, of much of the at-risk study as well. So I wonder if the minister had some comments on that. I have raised it in Question Period. It is a very genuine concern on the part of these people.

It is one that I think has significant consequences for the way in which the implementation of the special needs review can be met. Mr. McCrae: I certainly can appreciate the concern that might be raised and has been obviously with the honourable member. This was a study and a work conducted by the proactive organization. It is imp ortant for us to ensure that aboriginal organizations and individuals were consulted in the process of this work because I know that aboriginal children

1202 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 12 , 19 99 have amongst them their share of children, and probably more than their share of children, who need special education services. My staff is shuffling through the papers. I had a list which I should have shared with the honourable member when she actually raised this. It is quite a long list actually of aboriginal organizations and individuals who were consulted throughout the process, which may not suit the honourable member's question if she is talking about membership on a panel or something, but the fact is the input was there.

I can undertake and will undertake to bring that forward in a subsequent answer. Ms. Friesen: Yes, I look forward to receiving that list. One of the issues that was raised was that the steering committee had no representation of aboriginal people. There did not appear-and this is part of my difficulties with this review, it is a semipublic review in many ways-that the public discussion and conversation has not taken place. I understand, although I do not agree, with the kind of strategy that the government adopted on this. I think I can figure out their political reasons for doing this.

But it seems to me that the kinds of reports and advice that was of fered by a wide variety of organizations, not just aboriginal organizations, but school divisions, organizations which represent Manitobans in a broad sense such as the Society for Manitobans with Disabilities, that the advice and material that they submitted should be part of a pu blic process. I have spoken to the department about this. This is not a new issue. I have spoken to the consultants about this. Each of them replied that it was in the hands of the minister.

So I am wondering, for the purposes of a public conversation, whether all of the information, with the permission of those people who wrote it, whether that can be formulated into a collection in the library, in the archives, so that they can be consulted. I am not sure if the minister understands what I am getting at. Mr. McCrae: I am not sure either. Ms. Friesen: Basically, what happens is that people across the province wrote to the reviewers. I have no way of knowing what was said in Thompson, for example. I have no way of knowing what was said in Selkirk. I went to ones in Winnipeg.

Similarly, I am not putting just myself in this position, people in Selkirk do not know what was said in Thompson. Nobody knows what was said in the many submissions. The minister is going to give me a list, I assume, from aboriginal organizations. Nobody knows what was said in those. So from the perspective of trying to understand what Manitobans said at one point at the end of the 20th Century about special needs, there is not a good and full public record. We have a report. I trust the report to have reflected some of those views, but I do not know whether that report reflects all the views.

That is why I think people need to know about the public discussion. What I am asking for is a full public record and whether the minister is prepared to make a commitment to have that in the library. Other government reviews have done this. make reference in particular to the one on freedom of information. Initially the govern ment said they would publish it and do a second paper. They did not. But they did at least put all of the submissions into a binder in the library where they could be consulted. I thought that was a fair way of going about things.

It was public review, public discussion, and everything was available. Is the minister prepared to do that with the special needs review? * (16 20) Mr. McCrae: The issues around special needs children sometimes are very sensitive ones. We, I should not say we, but the system chose this methodology on purpose because of that. We wanted people to be comfortable with the process. I think that is what we achieved. I look at results.

If the report at this point is the result, at this particular point in time, I am pleased at what I am hearing from certainly the leaders of the political parties and others is support for what is in there. So if there is anything I can share with the honourable member that I should be sharing, I would like to do that. I want there to be some level. Between the lines, I am getting a sort of a cynical report from the honourable member. I do not think the motives

May 12 , 19 99 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 12 03 are at all questionable. I think that our motives are the same ones that the honourable member has. I do not like to be accused of having the wrong motives in dealing with a matter like the special education needs of our kids in this province. So anything that I can make available to the honourable member, I will review that with my staff, because I do not want her to feel this way about it. There are people who do not want their issues discussed openly. That should be respected. The honourable member, I am sure, would agree with that.

So what I will do is, if there is some submission or some piece of information the honourable member wants, then, if she could be specific, I would be pleased to look into what I can do. I am not interested in holding back information for political or partisan purposes. I am quite sincerely interested in getting program ming ready for the children of Manitoba so that they can benefit. It is as simple as that. I simply do not have it in me, I do not think, to engage in a process that is deliberately designed to leave some group or organization out. That is really counterproductive.

So if the honourable member will be a little bit specific about it. I mean, we cannot go back and do the whole process again. I think a lot of the people who were involved in the process appreciated the way it was being done. Again, I go to the result. I mean, what are the reviews? The party leaders are saying: This is a good report; this is a good product, however you got it. I am sensitive to what the honourable member says, and I have a long list of organizations, aboriginal ones especially, that were consulted as part of this. That list is something I want to recite for the honourable member.

I cannot do it right at the moment, but the Special Education review report identified the need for a variety of actions that will strengthen the entire system for special education students. I have to say this is really the first time that I am getting any message or signal, which is clear to me at least, that there is a problem associated with this report. If there is a way we can fix that problem, then let us do it, but I do not think we want to go over another couple of years of review and all of that when I know that lots of affected people and knowledgeable people have been consulted here.

When I know all of that, and I have a report that generally receives support, I do not know what there is to go back over, but I am quite happy to answer to the best of my ability any questions or issues the honourable member raises. The work of the report identified the need to work towards the development of stronger initiatives that would create supportive learning environments as well as the development of special education programs that were culturally appropriate.

No doubt that culturally appropriate point has to come from input from people who have issues and concerns about culturally appropriate programming. The report also indicated that the literature on aboriginal children and special education tends to focus on the ef fects of social conditions rather than on culturally based best practices. This is an area that we will be working on as the recommendations are implemented. We will not be doing it alone.

As we have pointed out before, it is multisectoral, and that is for good reason, because we do-whether I like it or whether the honourable member likes it-work in a political environment. Politics do find a way into these things. I wish they did not, but that is the reality. Some people will use children with special needs as some kind of a pawn to make some kind of a political point. I do not appreciate that. I do not want to play that game, and, to the best of my ability, I will not play that game, because this is too big for mere politics, in my opinion.

It is our intention also to continue our partnership and dialogue with reserve and federal educational officials in order to share the learnings and any of the subsequent actions that are undertaken. I do not know what else I can say. We are trying to be as open as we can. I do not think there is anything sinister about any of the effort that has gone into this. If I find out that there was, I will be dealing with it in the most effective way that I can. No one has come to me. This is the first indication, really, that I know of, that there is something amiss here.

So, if the honourable member can maybe spell it out a little better for me, I will have a better under standing. Ms. Friesen: The minister will note that, when I presented the question to him, I talked about the

1204 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 12 , 19 99 actual conclusions and review recommendations as quite separate. But what I am concerned about is the process of a pu blic review. For example, I had to ask the minister what aboriginal organizations were consulted. There is not a list in the review. Normally, reviews have a list of all the public presentations that have been made. I make reference, for example, to the Norrie commission, the boundary review report, which did have all of those. This particular review does not. It is not that I am implying there is anything sinister.

I simply want to know who presented. I do not want personal information. This is an area obviously where there will be individual presentations of personal information. Fair enough. Quite separate. But organizations-! specifically made reference to that in my question-the aboriginal issue is one issue that has been raised. The other is: What organizations did make presentations? Where is the list of them? Is it possible for the public to view those presentations, which were made to a publicly appointed review body? Mr. Chairperson in the Chair Mr.

McCrae: The report itself outlines a lot of the people with whom consultations were had. I think the honourable member keeps saying presentations, because I think that sometimes people think of an effort like this as maybe being a committee room like this where there is a microphone at one end of the table, and everybody comes forward and makes their presentation. Not everything works that way, and this one does not. This was a consultation. Mr. Chairperson: The honourable member for Wolseley, on a point of clarification. Ms. Friesen: Mr.

Chairman, yes, just for the minister, what I am asking for is the list of written presentations, because the committee did ask for written presentations if people wanted to make them. That is all I am looking for. Mr. Chairperson: I thank the honourable member for that. Mr. McCrae: What I am going to suggest for the honourable member is that the report itself has in it a list of all of the education groups and organizations, other organizations; for example, the Hanover Teachers' Association; the Brandon School Division, Mr.

Jim Reid; Salisbury Morse Place School; and on and on, and then organizations like the Cerebral Palsy Association-! am not going to go through them all; do not be worried about that-Manitoba Down Syndrome Society; Manitoba Society of Occupational Therapists, Movement Centre. It is there, and it goes on and on and on. What the honourable member wants to know is about written presentations.

She can contact any of these groups, and that might short-cut the whole process, that rather than us going through the process of making them all available to the honourable member, she may find that it might be better for her to contact the organizations for their permission or to ask for a copy of the presentation they made to the inquiry. * (16 30) The other point that needs to be made is that this thing involves case studies, lots and lots of case studies, in-person interviews with people, and all of these case studies, including the Agassiz School Division, but not limited to, the Brandon School Division, Mystery Lake, Red River, Turtle River, Winnipeg, for example, all ofthose had aboriginal persons involved in those case studies.

You may not have, I am advised, the list in the appendices, so this list that I have in my hand is something that I can make available to the honourable member, and then she can have a look through that. If she wants to know what presentation was made by any individual organization, she can be quite free to have maybe her research staff or somebody contact them, and that is the best way to find out if they want to share that with the honourable member. They may well want to, and they may not, too. I do not know. That is up to them. Ms. Friesen: Mr. Chairman, I have a copy here of the proactive report.

I do not believe it was in that copy. Now, I have a loose-leaf copy, and perhaps there are other reasons for that, but perhaps if it is wide, if it is general, that that list is not in all the copies, perhaps the minister could table them, so it does become a public document.

May 12 , 19 99 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 12 05 Mr. McCrae: I assure the honourable member that the appendix that I am talking about, all these names on it, is part of the report, and if the honourable member did not get it and wants it, simply put, we can get it for her or anybody else who wants it. Ms. Friesen: Well, would the minister table it then, so it is part of a public document in case other people got copies that did not have it in? Mr. McCrae: Yes, we will do that, if not this afternoon, tomorrow morning. Ms.

Friesen: Could the minister tell me whether that appendix lists the aboriginal consultations which were held and any aboriginal written presentations that might have been made to the committee? Mr. McCrae: I think we are sort of formulating what we are going to make available here on this. I am not sure what the honourable member asked specifically on this last one, but I think the tabling that I am going to do is going to answer that question. Ms. Friesen: The minister said this is already part of the report, which is a public document, so there should not be any problem in tabling it. Mr. McCrae: There is not.

Ms. Friesen: Good, okay. So what is the problem? Mr. McCrae: Either later this afternoon or tomorrow morning. Ms. Friesen: I think I asked if that included the list of aboriginal organizations which had either been consulted or had made written represen tations. Mr. McCrae: You see, the way the people doing the report did it, they did not identify political organizations. There were case studies of people involving divisions, and aboriginal people were very much part of that.

But I do not know that anything comes out identified that political organizations representing aboriginal people have-I may be wrong about that. We spotted one, but there may be others too that in one way or another were, so I am having a little trouble. I think the honourable member is trying to make the point that aboriginal people feel left out of this process. I am trying to make the point that should not be the conclusion that should be arrived at, but I cannot tell the honourable member what conclusion to arrive at. Ms. Friesen: I am simply looking for the evidence that that is not the case.

The only evidence that I can think of at the moment are the kind of presentations which are either solicited or offered. The case studies, yes. Obviously any case study in any school division in Manitoba is going to involve-well, not any one but most of them are going to involve aboriginal students. So the minister is making the case that I should not think that people were not represented or consulted. Well, all right, where is the evidence? Is there another kind of evidence that the minister has if there are not any listed in this partkular list? Mr.

McCrae: I think that as part of the process of doing this work, schools and divisions that had aboriginal populations were particularly picked out for consultation knowing that aboriginal people and students and children were part of those division

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	36-5-26
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	36th 5th hansardpdf 26.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	a29939474f18c02e676310115c7bb969bff29844

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