Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 32A (30th Legislature, 4th Session)

30-4-32a

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

TIME: 2:30 p.m. OPENING PRAYER by Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER, Honourable Peter Fox (Kildonan): Presenting Petitions; Reading and Receiving Petit ions; Presenting Repor ts by Standing and Special Committees. MIN ISTER IAL STATEMEN TS AND TABLIN G OF REP ORTS MR. SPEAKER: The Honou rable Minister for Highw ays. HONOUR ABLE PETER BUR TNIAK (Dauphin): Mr. Speaker, I'd like to present the Order for Return No. 24 on the motion of the Honourable Member for Roblin. MR. SPEAKER: Any other Ministerial Statements or Tabling of Repor ts? Notices of Motion. IN TRODUCTION OF BI LLS HONOUR ABLE RUSSELL PAULLEY, Minister of Labour (Transcona) introduced Bill (No. 11 )

an Act to amend The Legislative Assembly Act. (Recom mended by His Honour the Lieutenant Gover nor.) MR. BURTNIAK on behalf of Mr. Toupin introduced Bill (No. 54)

an Act to amend The Intoxicated Persons Detention Act. HONOUR ABLE RENE TOUPIN, Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs (Springfield) introduced Bill {No. 57)

an Act to amend The Manitoba Telephone Act. MR. LLOYD AXWORTHY (Fort Rouge) introduced Bill (No. 55)

an Act for the Relief of Anne Marie Mumford. MR. THO MAS BARROW (Flin Flon) introduced Bill (No. 58)

an Act for the Relief of Peter Martens. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opp osition. MR. STERLING LYON (Souris-Killar ney): Mr. Speaker' I wonder if I might have leave to make a brief statement with respect to the Member for Riel. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opp osition. MR. LYON: Mr. Speaker, in view of the number of inquiries we've had from members of the House and others outside of the House, I thought it would be of interest to report to you, Sir , and to his colleagues in the Legislature that the Mem ber for Riel, Donald Craik, is resting comfortably at the Health Sciences Centre.

His condition is stable and showing some improvement and naturally I know that all of us on this side are joined by all members of the House in wishing him a quick and speedy recovery and a return to the House before the end of the session. MR. SPEAKER: The Honou rable Minister for Labour. MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Speaker, in the absence of Premier Sch reyer and on behalf of our group, I think that the table slapping indicates how we feel about it and I would like the Honourable the Leader of the Official Opp osition to convey to our friend Don, the Honourable Memb er for Riel our best wishes for his speedy recovery. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie. MR. GORDON E. JOHNSTON : Mr. Speaker, with leave, I wou ld like to associate our group with the remarks that have been made by the Official Leader of the Op position and the House Leader of the day, and also add that the Mem ber for Riel, I think, is highly regarded and has given a great contribution to this House and we hope that he will be back soon. ORAL QUE STION S MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for River Heights. MR. SIDN EY SPIVAK (River Heights): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Mines and Natural Resources.

I wonder if he can confirm that additional layoffs have taken place or will be taking place tomorrow at Flyer Industries. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Mines. HONOUR ABLE SIDNEY GRE EN, Q.C. (lnkster): Mr. Speaker, I have no intention of dealing with that. I have indicated from time to time that ther e will be layoffs at various plants ope rated by the public when ther e is a necessity to do so. MR. SPIVAK: Mr.

Speaker, I wonder if the Minister is in a position to indicate the bottom line so far as employment is concerned at Flyer Industries so that it can be anticipated how many additional layoffs are going to be requi red. MR.nGREEN: No, I couldn't, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPIVAK: My question is to the Minister of Industry and Commer ce. I wonder if he can indicate whether his department has been informed of layoffs to occur in the agricultural supply and manufacture industry. MR. SPEAKER: The Honokrable Minister of I nd ustry and Commer ce. HONOUR ABLE LEON ARD S.

EVANS (Brandon East): Mr.nSpeaker, I have had no information from the1department on that matter. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for River Heights. 1495 THE LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMBLY of MANITOB A Monday, April 4, 19 77

Monday, April 4, 19 77 MR. SPIVAK: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Mines and Natural Resources. I wonder if he can indicate to the House whether there will be layoffs shortly for Man For at The Pas. MR. SPEAKER: The Honou rable Minister of Mines. MR.nGREEN : Mr. Speake r, I answered that question in the first answer that I gave. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Membe r for Birtle-Russell. MR. HARRY E. GRAHAM (Birtle-Russell): Thank you, Mr. Speake r. I have a question for the Honourable Atto rney-Ge neral.

I'd like to ask the Atto rney-General what actions his department is taking or what directives his department is giving to the police with in the Province of Manitoba to curtail the illicit drug activities that are existing in this province. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Atto rney-Ge neral. HONOUR ABLE HOWARD PAWLEY (Selkirk) : Mr. Speaker, I think that the direction is very very clear that those that are responsible for enforce ment pertaining to drugs are to enforce the laws as they are and are to proceed accordingly. MR. SPEAKE R: The Honou rable Member for Fort Rouge. MR. AXWORTHY: Thank you, Mr. Speake r.

I have a question for the Minister of Mines and Natural Resources and Environmental Protectio n. On Th ursday last, in reply to a question of the Memb er for Portage, he indicated that the only criteria for the envi ronmental review assessment procedure was contamination. In light of the fact that the paper issued in January 1976 has 1 O other criteria , can the Minister now indicate that the gover nment has changed all the regulations concer ning the application of the Environmental Review Agency? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Mines. MR. GREEN: Mr.

Speaker, I don't think that the honourable member is properly interpr eting my answer. If he will read it in Hansard, it will be indicated that I said that the part that cur department is concerned with is contaminants to the air, land and water. That was the criteria then, that is the criteria now. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Membe r for Fort Rouge. MR. AXWORTHY: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker.

In inte rpreting the remarks of the Minister in reply to the question indicated, what criteria is be ing used to deter mine those projects that wo uld come under the age ncy, and the reply was, "All those dealing with contamination." I am, ther efore, asking if the paper that was issued in July 1976setting out the 10 crite ria that will be used has not been rescinded by the government. MR. GREEN : Mr. Speaker, my honourable friend is talking about two different thi ngs. The nature of the project that would come under the Environmental Protection Review Agency has not changed.

What the Review Agency does insofar as the Environmental Protection Branch is concerned relates to co ntaminants of the air, land water. MR. AXWORTHY: Mr. Speake r, then to resubmit the questio n. In the case of the highway being built at the Thomas Lamb wildlife management area which comes under the criteria of the July 1976 paper that was issued, can he indicate why that particular project has not been subject to the review of that agency. MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, I'm not sure that it comes under the crite ria. I'll look at the question.

If it comes under the criteria, it may or may not be reviewed by the Agency. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Flin Flon. MR.nTHOMAS BARROW: I direct this question to the Minister of Labour. Due to the fact that they've closed the Cranberry Portage Curling Rink and due to the fact that people think they are being hard done by, the inspectors bei ng overzealous, could we look into matters and see if it warrants closing on the changes he considers necessary? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister for Labour. MR. PAULLEY: Mr.

Speaker, I thank the honourable member for telling me that he would be asking this question and I want to say the first I heard of the situation prevailing at Cranber ry Portage was reading a news

article that appeared in the Winnipeg Free Press this morning. I want to assure my honourable friend and the people of Cranberry Portage that I will investigate this matter fully and see if ther e may be some alternatives that can be taken to prevent the closing down of this important activity in the Town of Cranberry Portage. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Membe r for Emerson. MR. STEVE DERE WIANCH UK: Thank you Mr. Speaker. My questio n is to the Minister of Corrections.

Would the Minister confirm that he has received a resolution from Local Gover nment District of Stuartb urn requesting that the new penite ntiary be located near the Town of Vita? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister for Corrections. HONOUR ABLE J. R. (Bud) BOYCE (Winnipeg Centre): Yes, I have, Mr. Speaker, and as with other correspo ndence I have forwarded this to the Solicito r-Gener al for his consideration. MR. DERE WIANCHUK : A supplementary.

Could the Minister indicate whether or not the Local Gover nment District of Stuartburn would be given serious consideration as a possible future location for the penitentiary? 14 96

MR. BOYCE: Once again, Mr. Speaker, this is a decision of the Solicitor-G ener al. I imagine he wo uld like to locate it anywhere we could get the co-operation of the local community. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside. Orde r please. The Honourable Member for Emerson. MR. DE REWIAN CHUK: Another supplementary, Mr. Speake r. Would the Minister agree as the area in the LGD of Stuartburn has only marginal land insofar as agriculture production is concerned and that as it has no present , industrial development and no real hope of MR. SPEAKER: Order Please. The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR.

HARRY J. ENNS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I direct a question to the Honourable the Minister of Mines and Natural Resources as the Minister responsible for the Water Control Department. Has the Minister any infor mation as to whether or not the Portage Diversion and indeed the Winnipeg Floodway will be put to use this year? MR. SPEAKER: The Hono urable Minister tor Mines. MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, I don't know whether my honourable friend is being serious. I'm usually refe rred to as the Minister responsible for floods and I though t he was going to refer to me as the Minister responsible for drough t this year.

I think that right now ther e are many people in Manitoba who will hope that they would be put to use but I see no prospect tor that at the moment. No. MR. ENNS: Mr. Speaker, a supp lementary question. I want to assure the Minister, I am aski ng a serious question, the putting into operation of both these works has had some attending prob lems with it and the re are constituents of mine ... MR. SPEAKER: Question please. MR. ENNS: ... as we ll, as I know on Turnbull Drive that are concerned about. .. MR. SPEAKER: Orde r please. The Honourable Mem ber knows the routine. Will he ask a question? MR.

ENNS: My supp lementary question. Will the Minister solicit from his departmental people, at the earliest date possible, as to whether or not the Portage Floodway and the Winnipeg Floodway will in fact have to be put into operation this year? Thank you. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister tor Public Works. HONOUR ABLE RUSSELL DOERN (Elmwood): Mr. Speaker, about a week or more ago I was asked a question by the Honourable Member tor Crescentwood concerning some vacant space on the fifth floor of the Norquay Building. I'd like to mention a few points concerning this.

One is that the re are some six million squ are feet of space that our department administers and our vacancy rate is under three percent. In this case however we are dealing with about three-q uarte rs of a floor of the Norquay Building, which has been undergoing an extensive upgrading progr am and reassignment of space for the past four years. I am not too pleased with the fact that this floor has been vacant torso long but I wo uld like to point out a number of thi ngs concerning it.

One is that various floors have been used for staging areas for the renovation going on in the building and this one was utilized the longest in that regard. Secondly the re was a change of staff, someone leaving our department and a problem there. Third the entire ceiling has been replaced in that space. We are attemp ting to systematically replace the lighting in the building wh ich is found to be not that efficient and also ther e have been some breakage problems over the years so a new lighting system in the ceilings has been installed in the building on various floors and has been done there.

And we will be also completing the floors and partitions in that space. I guess those are the main points that I wanted to make, Mr. Speaker, and while I am on my feet I would like to ask leave to submit an Order for Return, No. 18 , on motion of the Honourable Member tor Wolseley. MR. SPEAKER: Is it agreed? (Agreed) The Honourable Memb er tor Fort Garry. MR. L. R.(Bud) SHERMAN: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Honourable the Attorney-General reporti ng tor the Liquor Commission.

In view of the continuing difficulties and the mounting number of complaints, can the Attor ney-General advise what the stage of proceedi ngs is betwee n the Liquor Commission and the parking lot landlord from whom the Commission rents parki ng space in Fort Garry in the ongoing rental dispute at 13 10 Pem bina Highway. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-Ge neral. MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Speake r, I received a communication from the Honourable Meerf or Fort Garry last week in connection ther ewith and I am in the process of preparing a response to him.

Need less to say every effort is bei ng made to negotiate a reasonable rent but the Liquor Control Commission on the other hand cannot be held up to a rental value which is exorbitant or is beyond any reasonableness as to market value. That has been the pr oblem that has confronted the Liquor Control Commission basically. MR. SHERMAN: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Can the Attorney-General advise whether the Liquor Commission is actually meeting with the landlord and with the other disputant in the case to resolve the issue or whether everything is just bei ng done at arm's length. MR. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker, the re certainly have been meet ings and discussions and in my 14 97 Monday, April 4, 19 77

Monday, April 4, 19 77 response to the Ho nourable Member for Fort Garry I wi ll be providing more specific information. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR. SHE RMAN: I thank the Atto rney-General for his information, Mr. Speaker. I have a question for the Honourable the Minister of Labour. I would ask him whether he can confirm thal the unemployment rate is 28 percent in the Manitoba construction trades as reported by the Winnipeg Labour Relations Council? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour. MR. PAULLEY: No, Mr.

Speaker, I cannot confirm that 28 percent of the construction industry is unemployed at the present time and I believe my honourable friend is refe rring to an

article in the papers the other day, a statement of Mr. George Akins connected with the Builders Exchange. I do know that some of the various components of the construction industry have a considerable nuero f unemployed at the present time. I do receive , Mr.

Speaker, on a monthly basis as a courtesy to me from the conftruction trades, an indication of the numbers of people - and I must say that these are from the trade unions and not a survey of the industry as a whole, including non-unionists -a nd the indications are from the assessments made to me that the unemployment rate is not near the 28 percent referred to by Mr. Akins. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. James. ' MR. MINAKER: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Honourable Minister of Public Works.

I wonder if the Hono urable Minister can advise the House: How long has the space at the Norquay Building been em pty? I know in his report that he indicated certain information. Would the Minister confirm how long this space has in actual fact been em pty? MR. DOORN: Appr oximately a year. BUSI NESS OF THE HOUSE MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. ENNS: Mr. Speaker, I wonder by leave if I could be given permission to make seve ral changds with respect to Standing Committees .

On Public Accounts, substituting the name Craik, the Member for Riel, with the name McGill, the Member for Brandon West and on the Public Utilities and Natur al Resources Committee' also substituting the name Craik, the Memberf or Riel, with the name Minaker, the Member fo r St. James. ORDERS OF THE DAY ADJOUR NED DE BATES - SECOND READIN G MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable House Leader. MR. GRE EN: Mr.

Speake r, I wonder if we could now proceed with the adjourned debates on second reading as they appear on Page 2 of the Order Paper, in the order of their appearance following which we will be moving into Committee of Supply. MR. SPEAKER: Thank you. Proposed Bill No. 4 by the Honourable Minister of Public Works. The Honourable Member tor Birtle-Russell. MR. GRAHAM: Stand. MR. SPEAKER: Bill No . 5 as we ll. MR. GRAHAM: Stand. BILL (N0.8) -

AN ACT TO AMEN D THE HIGH WAY TRAFFIC ACT MR. SPEAKE R: Bill No. 8 proposed by the Attorney- Genera l. The Honourable Member for Roblin. MR. J. WALLY McKENZIE: Mr. Speaker, these amendments to the Highway Traffic Act that are before us give wide discretionary powers to one police office r who is granted the power and the authority to request any driver of a motor vehicle to surrender his driver's license providing that one peace officer has reasonable grounds - and I wo uld hope that the Minister wo uld be more elaborate in his explanation of this bill and advise us what "reasonable grounds" means or whether he's going to put reasonable grounds in the definition

section - reasonable grounds to believe that the driver of a motor vehicle has consumed alcohol, drugs or some other substance in quantity sufficie nt to . affect his physical or mental faculties. I guess as the Minister said in his remarks on the bill that under the Crimi nal Code which was implemented in Decemb er 19 76 with the alert system, under this legislation now if the warning indicator lights up, then the police officer has the authority to lift the license. Of course, Mr. Speaker, right away is the return of the vehicle

section of the bill. I'm wondering can any of the next of kin of that pa rticular driver take and drive the vehicle away after the driver of the vehicle has had his license lifted? I believe in reading it, that it mentioned some twenty-fo ur hours before the vehicle can be released. I wonder, too, if a grievance procedure or the lack of an appeal procedur e - supposing a driver was wrongfully charged charged, what rights does the individ ual have when one police office r comes 14 98

Monday, April 4, 19 77 and says, "Well, as of now, my friend, you give me your keys or your driver's license. " It's a wide power to be granted to one police office r and I thi nk members of the Legislature and other s we ll recognize that police officers are like everybody else, the re's some that are quite temperamental and some that are maybe in a bad frame of mind on a particular given day and he could quite simply take driving privileges away from somebody without having cause, maybe on personal grounds.

The other concern that we have is the fact that will this judgment of one police officer lifting his driving privileges, will that driver then be charged with the demer it points that are listed under the Highway Traffic Act or will he be allowed to just get the driver's license back the next day without demer it points, Mr. Speaker? The other

section that has caused us some concern is the towi ng away of the vehicle, the removal of the vehicle. We we re discussing the possibility of a driver being apprehended as an exam ple betwee n Cranberry Portage and Tho mpson, out in the middle of nowher e and it's natural that the vehicle couldn't be left ther e unattended. But how are you going to move the vehicle in the case of only one driver? Would a tow truck be involved and then would those towi ng charges be assigned back to the driver of the vehicle? Those questio ns, I think, need a more detailed explanation. The other sectio n, Mr.

Speaker, I wonder how soon after the blood test in the early termi nation of suspension section' was it eight hours after or ten hours or is ther e any definite time for a driver whose license is suspended to voluntarily submit to a test at a place designated by the peace officer? Does that have to happen within eight hours or ten hours or ... ? Ther e's nothing specific there. The other one, of course, Mr.

Speaker, and the one that does concern us and mainly at the start of the bill again: What do you mean by "reasonable grounds?" I think we have to have a much more definite and firm definition of the legislation because that "reasonable grounds" is a pretty wide avenue to leave for one person to take the rights away from another. So, with those few questio ns, Mr. Speaker, we 'll move the bill on into Committee and hope fully have more questions of the Minister when we get it into Law Amend ments. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General will be closing debate. The Honourable Attorney-Gener al. MR. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker, I appreciate the comme nts by the Honourable Memb er for Roblin. First, I do think that we ought to ensure that the "reasonable grounds" are clearly understood and as far as my intent is concerned, they should relate to the use of the alert machine so that whe re the alert machine reads "warning", then the suspension would take place and I wo uld concur with sentiment' if I heard those sentiment s expr essed correctly, that the discretion should not widen beyond the ambit of the alert machine.

If in Committee, it is felt that we need some clearer wording in order to ensure that it relates to the alert machine, then I for one am certainly prepared to see that type of restriction imposed. The trouble with legislation such as this, its aim is so very very important, to curtail some of the damage and the injury and death on our highw ays due to the mixing of drink and driving.

On the other hand, one cannot play into the hands of the tendency that can take place if people are given too much power, for them to over-exe rcise it and certainly it is my intent that the use of the suspension should relate clearly to the alert machine and reasonable cause should ther efore be on the basis that from the utilization of the alert machine the re is a very clear indication that the driving motorist does have in excess of 80 milligr ams per 10 0 millimeters of alcohol in his blood system.

The result, therefore, is a choice at that point wher e the police officer could take the motorist in for a natural breathalyzer test, which is the principal means of evidence gathering here, even though he may only be a few milligr ams over or simply providing him with a twen ty-four hour suspension.

As I indicated earlier, I think from the point of view of the best use of the police officer's time and the convenience of the motorist, certainly within that area, ther e is every reasonable justification for the suspension rather than the breathalyzer test and as I indicated in introducing the legislation we have already had some instances with the Alert machine, whe re even though it read a little over the 80 milligrams, and ther efore the person should have probably been taken in for the actual test but wasn't, because of that just slightly over, the motorist was allowed to proceed and then ended up in an accident.

And that is the sort of thing that we are attem pting to avoid in the legislation before us. Demer it points: Certainly ther e ought to be no registration of demer it points because ther e is no conviction, and ther efore, we should not be confronted with the imposition of any demer it points arising from this legislation.

Insofar as the towing: Well that would be a cost which would have to be borne by the motorist, ther e is certainly no reason that that type of cost sho uld be imposed upon the community at large because the police officer is acting with reasonable cause, on the basis of information and facts which that police office r can produce to show that he or she is acting reasonably, and ther efore, the cost ough t to fall upon the motorist that, in fact, has placed him or herself in that position, that in all likelihood that motorist would fail if a breathalyzer was right ther e at that time and the test was being taken right ther e at that moment.

So that is an expens e that should not be borne by the community as a whole, the taxpayer of the entire community, but rather by the motorist. 14 99

Monday, April 4, 19 77 Ther e are appeal provisions: Yes, certainly any motorist that feels that ther e is someth ing very much wrong here can certainly insist upon appeal and that appeal is to insist that the police officer take him or her to the breathalyzer machine immediately, and by the test, to prove that he or she is not .in excess of the legal limits, because certainly the license ough t not to be taken away during any time that the individual is registeri ng less than the legal limits of 80 milligrams.

So that the appeal is ther e for permitting the motorist to insist upon that, insist upon the breathalyzer test, but, of course, knowing full we ll that the motorist in insisting upon the breathalyzer test could in fact be walking into a much bigger problem, in that of course if the motorist goes in fo r the breathalyzer test and then fails in the breathalyzer test, then the motorist is going to be charged with an offense under 231 of the Criminal Code in failing to pass a breathalyzer test in that that motorist had in excess of .08, so that ther e is a heavy responsibility there.

The motorist I am sure wo uld only insist upon that appeal if he or she felt very very confident that he or she had not been drinking to such an extent as to push him or her over the legal limit. Mr.

Speaker, with those few remarks I welcome the opportunity to take this bill on to Committee in which we can deal with more specif ic questions, and also exam ine the need that possibly wi ll rise from some clearer wording, because I do not disagree with the need to ensure that the limits of the discretion be restrained so as to minimize the possibility, and I say it is only a possibility, I don't think it would happen very ofte n, but it could happen, of abuse if that reasonable clause was interpr eted in too liberal a fashion. QUESTION put, MOTION carried.

BIL L (NO . 18) - THE RETAIL BUSINE SSES HOLIDAY CLOSIN G ACT. MR. SPEAKER: Bill No. 18 , proposed by the Hono urable Minister of Labour. The Honourable Memb er for La Verendr ye. MR. BOB BANMAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a few comments to make with regard to this bill. When the Minister of Labour was introducing the bill he mentioned that he had had a fair amount of mail' and a fair amount of contact with the constituents throughout Manitoba with regard to this bill, urging him to bring in some form of Sunday closing.

I would like to say that I have had the same type of correspondenc e from my constituents as we ll as many phone calls with regard to this particular bill. The majority of people that I have talked to in my riding favour a form of legislation whic h would make Sunday a day of rest, and I noticed when the Memb er for Fort Garry spoke and the Member for St.

Johns, they both did not get involved in the fact that it is a religious holiday as far as many of the people in my riding are concerned, and I wo uld like to underline that to the members of the House here that many people in my community feel that it should be set aside as a religious holiday. It is a day of rest when people can go to their respective churches together and this is one of the reasons that I am supporting this particular bill.

I would however like to point out at this time that I wo uld like to see an amendment made to the bill with regard to the option of the individual either closing Saturday or Sunday. I feel that we should take the approach that Ontario has taken, whereby everybody is supposed to close Sunday unless the person, by religious beliefs, the ope rator of the store, applies to the government and can show cause that, because of his religious be liefs, he wo uld like to close on Saturday, then we should allow provisions for that. But I think the way the bill is written right now that particular

section should be omitted because it allows too much leeway for the individuals. Seve ral points that were brought up by some of the members before and I would just like to underline, is that consumer habits, and being in the retail business myself, consumer habits are interes ting, and I think, the majority of us will realize that ther e are only so many consumers and the re is only so many consumer dollars to be spent.

And I th ink by going ahead and opening it up to seven days a wee k, all we are doing is spreading the shop ping over seven days, and I don't think that that is, number one, an econom ical way of doing things, and number two, a thing that most of the people in Manitoba want. By having stores open seven days a week what does happen is that, I think, in the final analysis, if the cost of operati ng tha t facility increases in a year's period, it is definitely passed on to the consumer.

I think too often we go ahead and we say, we ll listen we are going to pass certain legislation which will force the store owner s to do this, or force the m to do that. We have to realize that if ther e is increased costs, as far as the operation of a business, they are passed on to the consumers and the consumers are the ones that are going to pay. So, I think , that the consumer habits as far as Sunday shopping is concerned, it's someth ing that can be brought down to a six:-day, keep it in a six-day framew ork, and I think it will be beneficial to everybody.

I woud would just like to in closing, reiterate again, that I would like to see that one

section of the Act changed , and I hope that when amendments are brough t forward in Committee , that the government will give some serious consideration to closing that particular part, which I thi nk is too loose right now. and I think that should be clarified. But I would again like to say that my constituents, 1500

Monday, April 4, 19 77 as we ll as myself, are in favour of a form of Sunday closing; we agree with the bill, except we feel that the one area is too loose. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Memb er for Lakeside. MR. ENNS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Just one or two words to support the position just put forward by the Honourable the Mem ber for La Verendr ye, but also to indicate to the Honourable Minister, and the Gove rnment gener ally, a shortfall that they have a habit of making from time to time when they suggest to us that a particular piece of legislation is similar to that as has been in practice or introduced in other jur isdictions. I recall distinctly when the bill was introd uced, the Minister introducing the bill, indicating that Ontario, Conservative Ontario, had introduced similar legislation. Mr.

Speake r, the Act in force in Ontario is not anywher e near the Act that is being put before us today, it is quite different, it is quite different. And I would hope that perhaps during the Committee stage of the bill we can convince the Minister and the government to, in fact, adopt the Ontario piece of legislation by making the changes which are essentially those that have been suggested by the Honour able Memb er for La Verendr ye. The re is a difference, and I just object, Mr. Speaker, from time to time to have somebody tell me that

an Act that is be ing introduced in this Chamber, is the same or very near the same, or in fact identical to legislation that another jur isdiction way, has passed, and in that particularly if it is passed by a good Conservative administration, in another province, then that should pull the wool over my eyes and I should not ex amine the bill and pass the bill in speedy fashion. Well, Mr. Speake r, this bill before us is not the same as in Ontario.

We wo uld be very happy if the Minister wo uld make that change, that amendment, to make it coincide with the Ontario piece of legislation; you wo uld have full co operation, Sir, from our side of the House in speedy passage of this bill if you decided to do that. Thank you. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Minnedosa. MR. DAVID BLAKE: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Memb er for Virden, that debate be adjourned. MOTION presented and carried. MR. SPEAKER: Bill No. 20. Proposed by the Hono urable Minister of Health. The Honourable Member for Rhineland. MR. ARNOLD BROWN: Stand, Mr.

Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Bill No. 21 pr oposed by the Atto rney-Ge neral. The Honourable Memb er for Sturgeon Creek. MR. J. FRANK JO HNSTO N: Stand, Mr. Speake r. MR. SPEAKER: Bill No. 22 proposed by the Honour able Attor ney-Gener al. The Honourable Mem ber for Fort Garry. MR. SHERMAN: Stand, Mr. Speake r. BIL L (N o. 26 ) -

AN ACT TO AMEN D THE PERSON AL PROPER TY SECURIT Y ACT AND CERT AIN OTHER ACTS RELATING TO PERSONAL PROPER TY. MR. SPEAKER: Bill No. 26, proposed by the Honourable Minister of Labour. The Honourable Mem ber for Swan River. MR. JAMES H. BILTON: Mr. Speaker, I stood this for the Honourable Me mber for Fort Garry. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. PF MR. SHERMAN: Mr. Speaker, only a brief comment is necessary on this legislation.

I've had a chance to study it and to exam ine the Minister's introductory comments at the time that he introduced the bill fo r second reading, although I was out of the Chamber that particular afternoon that he did so. I certainly am in sympathy with the principle of the bill; I wo uld suspect that it wo uld :nake it a great deal easie r for apprentices indentured in their trades to be able to receive the kind of trades training they need to receive their licenses and their papers.

It would exped ite the graduation of a wider number of skilled tradesmen and craftsmen in our industrial community, particularly in the building construction field. I think that is desire desirable. I think also it wo uld have a benef icial effect in terms of of the employment situation in the construction field, in the building fie ld.

The only other thing I would have to say is that in addressing myself to a bill of this kind I would hope that the Minister might be thinking of some rationalizations of apprenticesh ip and tradesmen's qualifications generally in terms of the time necessary to qualify as journeymen in many trades, particularly in the construction field. That is a subject that I would hope the Minister and his department might be looking at. It seems to me th at some apprenticeship and trades training requi rements call fo r possibly a longer period of time than is either des irable or necessary.

So I would hope that some thought might be given to a speeding up of some of the time frames necessary for qualification in some fie lds. With that one side suggestion to the Minister, Mr. Speake r, I want to assure him of our support for th is bill. We would hope it could move forward quickly. 15 01

Monday, April 4, 19 77 MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour shall be closing de bate on this subject. MR. PAULLEY: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the remarks of the Member for Fort Garry. I'm glad that the bill is going to be proceeded with. I think that it is well worthw hile.

I would not have said anything had it not been for the closing remarks of the Hono urable Member for FortGarr y and I want to indicate to him that for about a year-and-a-half or two years I've had a committee looking into all aspects of The Appr entice Training and The Trade smen's Qualifications Act so I assure him that it is an ongoing procedur e. I do hope before long, possibly before the end of this sessio n, to receive that report so that I can take a look at this to see what may be desired by way of a different methodology in The Appr entice Training and Tradesmen's Qualifications Act itself.

Question put, MOTION carried.

AN ACT TO AMEND THE HI GHWAY TRAFF IC ACT

(2) MR. SPEAKE R: Bill No. 30 proposed by the Honourable Minister of Highways. The Honourable Memb er for Ro blin. MR. McKENZIE: Mr. Speaker, this bill is of considerable interest for many many reasons. I believe two years ago that pressures of suppliers and manufacturers of mopeds were brought to bear on the govern ment and the Minister to see if they wo uld license them and make them legal on our routes and travel areas in Manitoba and of course the government didn't see fit to legislate mopeds at that t)articular time. I believe they said the reason was they couldn't define them .

And then of course last year I think the Honourable Memb er for Assiniboia, if my memory serves me correct ly, brought a resolution before the House on mopeds and the Minister amended that resolution to assure the House that he would be dealing with them in 1977. So, Mr. Speaker, the Hig hways Minister under great pressure from buyers and sellers of mopeds has finally reacted to what the needs of the people are and brough t this legislation in.

And sure, maybe some of the staff in the department are kicking and yelling and screaming and say, "We don't want to come along", because it took them so long to be able to find out a definition for a moped . And it's intere sting that the definition her e makes rational sense. It's simple. It's a motorized bicycle, small motorcycle with pedals on. And the safety of mopeds and the safety of the oper ator, no doubt, is of considerable concern to the department and the Minister and I am sure that he can rest assured that we join him in that respect. It's an interesting th ing, this moped .

In times now of an energy shortage, it will go I think about 200 miles per gallon and is capable of obtaining a speed of 40 miles per hour or more, so they are fairly fast veh icles. And I wondered why the Minister saw fit to tie them in The Highway Traffic Act with motorcycles and bicycles and why they couldn't have left the mopeds by themselves, being such an economical little mode of travel and maybe not charged a fee at all for the licensing of mopeds.

It would have been an inter esting expe riment for the gove rnment for once to see what wo uld happen if somebody qualified and got a licence without having to pay some dollars. So I would hope that maybe in the committee the Minister and the government will take a look and see if it isn't possible for us to licence these simple little veh icles at no cost to the oper ator.

The mopeds naturally have caused some concern to the police depa rtments but apparently the !egis lation in other jur isdictions across Canada have assured us that it's a poor man's mode of transportation and they get along very we ll and they don't seem to be causing any great trouble or anxiety in the other jurisdictions that are using them. So, with those few words, Mr. Speaker, we'll move the bill along and deal with it in committee and I'm sure there will be other questions raised there. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. ENNS: Mr.

Speaker, I wasn't going to say anything but I was moved to make a few remarks because I have a particular vested interest in this bill that has been exp ressed to me by none other than my father- in-law, Mr.

John Klassen, who may not quite fit the poor man's mode of travel description that the honourable friend from Roblin has described; but it does prompt me to say that this method of travel is increasingly popular with not just the younger generation or younger set but by many of our senior people who find them selves bicycling and cycling now more than ever for health reasons but often find themselves two or thr ee miles removed from their home or origin and facing a stiff wind on the way back need that little bit of he lp that this motorized unit can provide for them.

Or indeed , if their travels take them across some hilly terrain or a bridge. At least, my father-in iaw complains that it would be very handy from time to time to have the ability of, which I understand the moped can do, on or off power more or less at will. So if the senior citizen wishes to pedal out to his favourite destination thr ee or four miles through the park but then, perhaps under doctor's order s is told to constrain himself from overly exer cising, he can flip his moped energizer on and scoot home safely without too much taxing of his abilities. So, Mr.

Speaker, on behalf of those people such as my father -in-law and other s who have waited for this legislation, I am pleased to see the Minister introduce this piece of legislation and he has my avid support. QUES TION put, MOTION carried. 15 02

Monday, April 4, 19 77 BIL L (NO . 35) -

An Act to amend The Highway Traffic Act

(3) MR. SPEAKER: Bill No . 35 proposed by the Hono urable Minister of Highways. The Honourable Member for Roblin. MR. McKENZIE: Mr. Speaker, the re are many changes in the Highway Traffic Act in Bill No. 35 whereby the Minister of the department and the governmen t now have seen fit to include motor homes under The Highway Traffic Act and slide-in campers. Mr. Speaker, under the registration plates, permits, and registration of motor vehicles' sections of the Act it is amended to cover in-transit slide-in campers and I wonder the intent of the legislation.

It appears that an interim registration sticker will be required or a temporary registration dealer's plate while they're being transferred or transported by a manufacturer to a distributor or a dealer, and I was wondering if the Minister maybe would explain the reason for this type of legislation, Mr. Speaker. I wonder under the semi-trailer truck sectio n, Mr. Speaker, wher e the licence plates I believe now shall be attached to the tractor itse lf itse lf, if maybe the Minister could explain.

Has ther e been some problems with the trucking industry putting a licence plate on the van and not on the tractor itse lf? And then of course the other question comes up, Mr. Speaker, if the licence plate is on the truck I'm sure that the police officers or the licence inspectors couldn't see it anyway because of the fact that the semi is tied on to the truck. The other sectio n there, the qualifications of a motor vehicle inspector is amended.

I wonder maybe if it isn't time fort he Minister to now put special uniforms on these motor vehicle inspectors so that the man on the street can recognize who these people are, or mark the cars in which they are travelling. They have caused a lot of concern and anxiety amongst people out in the rural areas; I'm not so sure about the city. But under this amendment the motor vehicle inspector is a qualified mechanic and he is engaged in the business of repair of motor vehicles and has had - it used to be five , and now it's down to two years' exper ience in diagnosing vehicles.

Under the issuance and renewal of motor vehicles, the inspector's licence is amended. I'm not sure, maybe the Minister could explain 'the word "the" I believe is struck out and the word "now" is added, "now upon payment of prescribed fees the Registrar may issue a licence to any person who complies." And I think it's renewed every three years instead of, I believe it's annual at the present time. Then, Mr. Speaker , we find under the mention of vehicles that farm tractors are now added to the special mobile machines.

And while maybe there is need for the farm tractor being defined, and espec ially with the cabs that they have on them, I was wondering if the Minister could be more specific and give us a bette r idea of why that change was req uested . The n, the weig ht restrictions' section. There is an amendment ther e whereby, Mr.

Speaker , municipal by-laws limiting weight subject to the approval of the Highw ay Traffic Board, I thi nk the Council of a City, or the municipality, or the town, or the village may now by by-law increase or decrease the weight of vehicles that may be driven on any particular highw ay in respect of theirown particular by-laws, instead of ... I believe in the

section befo re it just said "limited". The railwaycrossing amendments are rather interesting, Mr. Speaker, wher e a driver is approaching a railwaycrossing and if the re is a Stop sign erected by the railwaycrossing then the vehicle must stop fifteen feet from the nearest rail, in restricted speed areas, but if it is in a restricted speed area then the vehicle must stop fifty feet from the railwaycrossing. Mr. Speaker, the n we moved on into I be lieve the accident reports'

section which is amended, wher e a report of an accident causing bodily injury to or the death of any person, I think those amendments are in order and that the limit sho uld be increased from $200 to $300.00. The prohi bition offen ces and the penalties'

section reads: whereby no person shall register a motor vehicle that is not a truck as a truck. I wonder if the Minister maybe could ex plain that, as in reading that how could it possibly be for somebody to register a truck that is not a truck. It may be the definition

section of a truck would need to be clarified. Then of course comes the

section which the Farm Bureau and other groups have been promoti ng for some time, and that's to allow persons under the age of eighteen years to ope rate a semi-trailer truck or farm trucks in a farm ope ration. I'm sure that the Minister is we ll aware of the concerns that have been raised by the farming community for some time over it, especia lly in harvest time, the need for this sectio n to be repealed and farmers included.

Some concern was expr essed to me this morning by people wondering why only farmers -w hat about the bulk fue l dealer in the country who faces the same labour prob lem as a farmer, or the im plement dealer? It's the same labour market that they all draw from and they wondered if ther e was any special status that farmers had above these other people - maybe the Minister would take a look at that in committee when we arrive at it. The detention

section of vehicles, Mr. Speaker, has been repealed here and a peace office r now can detain a motor vehicle with which an offence has been committed for not more than th ree days but the vehicle may be released sooner if the evidence so provides. Then, Mr. Speaker, ther e was the ordering for extending period of detention wherein motor 15 03

Monday, April 4, 19 77 11eh icles could be detained under and the officer may apply to adjust it in orde r to continue the detention. Th ose were all new sections and I'm sure the Minister while in his remarks didn't fill us in on all the details, that he will give us the reasons for the need of the period of extension and the personal property portion that is to be returned. Th ose' Mr. Speaker, are some of the things that are of concern. I notice the regulations now are be ing amended so whereby the noise ... The Highway Traffic Act was under the impression that they could control certain noise levels under the Act and it appears now that that

section has been repealed and they no longer are going to try and control levels of noise. So with those few remarks we 'll move the bill along, Mr. Speaker, and have more questions when we arrive in Law Amend ments. QUES TION put, motion carried. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable House Leader. MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable the Minister of Co-operative Development, that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a committee to consider of the supply to be granted to Her Majesty.

MOTION presented and carried, and the House resolved itself into a Committee of Supply with tne Honourable Member for Logan in the Chair fo r Consumer and Corpo rate Services, and the Honourable Member for St. Vital in the Chair for Hig hways. 15 04

CON CURR ENT COMMIT TEES OF SUPPLY ESTIMATES - HI G HWAYS MR. CHAI RMAN, Mr. D. James Walding (St. Vital): We have a quorum, gentlemen; the Committee will come to order. I would refer honourable members to Page 36 in their Estimates Book, the Department of Hig hways, Resolution 67, Management Servi ces and Engineeri ng, (

f) District Offices, (1 ) Salaries and Wages. The Honourable Minister. MR. BUR TNIAK: Mr. Chairman, I am just wonde ring if it would be agreeable for me to go back and answer a couple of quest ions that were posed to us on Thu rsday night, I believe, when we met in this Committee last. If I may, Mr. Chairman, one by the Hono urable Meer for Roblin who enqui red about the formula for sand and chemical mix and application.

The answer is that the rate of application and type of chem ical and formula used depends on the air tem perature and thi ckness of ice and also wher e it is being applied, that is, whether it is on the straight section, the hills, or curves. When 100 percent che mical is used, the application is from 300 to 700 pounds per lane mile mile and the te mper ature range could be anywhere from zero Fahrenh eit to 30 deg rees Fahrenheit. For hills and curves a mix of 100 pounds per yard is used and is applied at the rate of about two cubic yards a mile.

For tempe ratures below zero Fahrenheit a mixture of sand and calcium chloride is used of 200 pounds a yard and applied at two cubic yards a mile. The other quest ion we took as notice was from the Honourable Meer for Birtle-Russell. He wanted to know about studded tires, if ther e had been an increase or a decrease in the use of studded tires. The latest information we have is 1975-76. The statistics are the most recent ones that are available.

These indicate that the use of studded tires was down 4.9 percent over the 1974-75 period which in turn was down 8.9 percent over the 1973-74 period; 28.5 percent of the vehicles in Manitoba used studded tires in 1975-76. It appears that the use of studded tires is steadily decreasing by that statis tic we rece ived. The other quest ion from the Membe rf or Birtle-R ussell was in connection with a purchase of land, the Order for Return regarding property purchased on PTH No. 4.

As I pointed out at that time the Land Acq uisition Branch is under the Department of Public Works and we accepted the Order for Return and the Land Acqu isition Branch is prepari ng the information now and it should be available very shortly; I would think that I will be tabling that information in the House once I receive that information from the Ministe r of Public Works. In regard to the Me on er for Minnedosa, regarding the bridge PTH No. 24 at Rapid City, tenders are in the paper of Saturday, Apr i l 2nd .

Contracts wi ll be awarded once tenders are opened provided that funds are approved by the Legislature, whic h I have no doubt that they will be. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 67. The Honourable Member for Minnedosa. MR. BLAKE: I realized , Mr. Chairman, that the tenders have been called and they close on the 13th or 19th of Apri l.

We we re all thrilled when we realized the rapidity with which the Minister had let this tender but the people that will be bidding on it te ll me that with road restrictions ther e is no way they will be able to move any mate rial on site until late on in June probably, so it is going to be late in the fall before the bridge is finished in any event. I just wonder about planning. Was this not evident to the department and could they not have got the mate rial on site before road restrictions or something came in? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR. BUR TNIAK: Mr.

Chairman, I am informed that the completion date for this bridge is August and in the usual capable manner in whic h the Department of Hig hways operates, we will make sure the material gets ther e somehow to have it completed by that complet ion date. MR. BLAKE: Very good. I thank the Minister. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 67(f) (1). The Honourable Meer for Roblin. MR. McKENZIE: Mr. Chairman, I wonder, would the Minister advise us if all the engineers and the assistant engi neers in these district offices are qualified engineers? MR. CHA IRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR.

BUR TNIAK: The district engi neers, yes, I would think so, and the one assistant. MR. McKENZIE: In every distr ict office the district man and the assistant man is a qualified engi neer? MR. BUR TNIAK: Yes. I am told that only in one district, our district engineer in that one particular district is not, but other than that they all are. MR. McKENZIE: Could the Minister advise us which one that is? MR. BUR TNIAK: That is in The Pas. MR. McKENZIE: That is all I have for the moment, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 67(f) (1 )-pass. (f)

(2) Other Expenditures. The Honourable Member for Rock Lake. 15 05 THE LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMBLY of MANITOB A Monday, April 4, 19 77

Monday, April 4, 1977 MR. HENR Y J. EINARSON: I wonder if the Minister could give us a breakdown on Other Expenditures, $686,000? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. -MR. BURTNIAK: Mr. Chairman , when the honourable member says $686,000, thalis somewhat of an increase from $669,000. I wouldn't want to create the impression that that was the additional expe nditures. MR. EINARSO N: Oh, I am sorry, yes. MR. BURTNIAK: No, these are increases due to the general rise in the cost of materials, services, travel expenses and office operations. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 67(f) (2) -pass; (f)-pass. Reso lution 67(

g) Hig hway Traffic Inspection,

(1) Salaries and Wages. The Honourable Meer for Rock Lake. MR. EINARSON: Mr. Chairman, I pose a question for information here - under Hig hway Traffic Inspection is it in order to question about the road restrictions coming on? I would like to make a comment about this if I mayif that is in order under the Hig hway Traffic Inspection? Wher e can we question on that? MR. BURTNIAK: I wo uld think, Mr. Chairman, if the honourable memb er wants to discuss that now we will accept it. MR. EINARSON: Yes. Well, Mr.

Chairman, we have a situation weather-wise that is most unusual and the Minister announced road restrictions to go on at 6 o'clock this morning in southern Manitoba where we have had practically nil moisture. The weather is cooling off now, it could be a colder April than we had in March. I was wondering whether or not it was necessary to put on restrictions on some of our trunk highways such as No. 2, for instance, or even No. 3.

I would think there would be some difference because in the north you have had considerable moisture and I am wonderi ng whether it is really necessary to bring on road restrictions in the southern part of the province where we have had no moisture to speak of and as a result with the dry soil last fall, the frost penetration wou ld not have nearly the effect on our road system at this time of the year because of those conditions. I wonder if the Minister would elaborate on that. MR. BUR TNIAK: Mr.

Chairman, I wo uld think that the honourable meer knows quite well that when road restrictions are suggested or brought in, they are watched very closely, and although it may seem as though we have had a dry summer and dry fall last year and it is qu ite dry again this spring, so that one like the honourable member himself is wondering why restrictions should be even considered . The th ing is, Mr.

Chairman, that each district in the province is watching the deflections on their highw ays, especially the paved portions, and as soon as there is any indication that these deflections so indicate that there should be some restrictions on the roads, that is when restrictions go in. And in spite of the fact that we may think it is very dry and all that, those deflections indicate that there are going to be breakups, that is the reason why we are doing it. It is very difficult to speculate on these thin gs.

When one says that the weather is getting colder and all that, well you know one really can't tell ahead of time. It may be cold for a day or two and then turn mild anyway and again and if you don't put restrictions on early, I think you might as well not have any restrictions at all. That is way the department feels; I would say that is the way I feel about it too. Now from her e on in what happens, we will watch it closely again and there may be a situation where it might be feasible to suggest that we not go any lower than 350 pounds per inch for the tire.

This is not policy but we will have to wait and see what happens. If the deflections show we should, we will continue to do this, to bring in the same type of restrictions as we have in the past. MR. EINARSON: Well, Mr. Chairman, I appreciate the comments that the Minister has made, but he made a statement last Friday about road restrictions going on on the hig hways of the Province of Manitoba to indicate to the people that restrictions are going to be on all roads.

I am wondering then, is the Minister allowing any discretion that the engineer of each district will have something to say as to when the restrictions will be put on because I make mention of the very situations that differ from one community to another in the . province. MR. CHAI RMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR. BU RTNIAK: Usually that information comes thro ugh the district and you know, if they feel that the conditions are such that restrictions should put on these particular roads with in a district, they will so indicate. I did not, by the way, Mr.

Chairman, have time to read the various roads or PTHs that these restrictions would apply as of this morning. It does not mean that all highways in the province - primarily asphalt surface treatment, ASTs. There was a list. I didn't bother reading the entire list over but there was a list prepared and th ose are the ones that are bei ng restricted at this time, but that's not all the roads and hig hways in the Province of Manitoba. MR. EINARSON: Thank you. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Mem ber for Roblin. MR. McKENZIE: Mr.

Chairman, the Manitoba Trucking Association has been in touch with me regarding your inspection system in the province. They say that out-of- province carriers are creating all kinds of hardships on our Manitoba truckers and the inspection department is not 15 06 I

Monday, April 4, 19 77 inspecting these veh icles. The system is lax and somewha t weak. I wo nder can the Minister give us some idea of how many inspections of out-of- province trucks is being conducted at the various inspection points. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR. BUR TNIAK: Mr. Chairman, I don't know if it's correct to say that the system is weak. Like anything else of course, ther e is room for improvement. I think all of us can probably stand some improvement as we ll.

But the latest information that I have - Number of prosecutions in 19 76 which is the year we are dealing with in our Estimates, the prosecutions we re 2,016 ; 1, 931 corrections, 74 are stayed and 11 dismissed. If you are interested to know the number of fines collected, ther e we re $1 27,4 68 of fines collected and out of these, out-ofpro vince, ther e we re 22 percent. That's dealing with prosecutions. Twenty-two percent were out-of-prov ince people, truckers. MR. McKENZIE: Of those 2,016 prosecutions, what are they. Basically overwe ight? Is that the majority of them? MR.

BUR TNIAK: I would think overweight, and perhaps something to do with the axle spacing as we ll, licence or wh atever. It could be a number of things. MR. McKENZIE: I was wondering the identification of vehicles ... Do all trucks, anything over a half-ton, have to report at these inspections? MR. BUR TNIAK: Yes. All trucks must report. That's what the sign says. Now I th ink the honourable member is probably aware of the situation as well as I am, where the re are times people that are driving a half-ton will report and the inspector ther e may say, "Well, look. Why report?

You don't have to report." This has been done. Other times they're called in. I think it does create a bit of a problem for the small trucker. But basically, all trucks have to report to the scales and I would think, maybe when you talk about half-ton trucks, I'm just think ing in my own mind whether or not we should even bother with having half-ton trucks reporting to the scales. MR. McKENZIE: I wonder, Mr. Chairman, if the Minister is conside ring putting a mark or a name on these vehicles. They we re marked at one time and we had an idea of who was the owner of the vehicle and whe re he came from.

But now they are not identified in any way, shape or form. Some of the trucks now are dressed up maybe better than the private automobile. The tr uck, in my impression, has always had a certain useful duty to perform on a farm or in a business. But now with the trucks that are hauling campers and this type we are in to a new type of a pretty plush truck. Now do all those trucks report that are carrying campers to thes e inspection stations? MR. BURTNIAK: Strictly for we ight. I might point out too , Mr.

Chairman, I believe I'm correct in saying that anything over a three-quarter ton truck has to have a name on anyway, for identif ication. But below that, you don't have to. And I don't th ink that is a problem. MR. McKENZIE: Can I ask the Minister, does every truck over a half-ton, does he have to display the maximum we ight on his vehicle someplace that he is allowed to carry, does it have to be in a prominent place? MR. BUR TNIAK: I don't believe so. MR. McKENZIE: It's not displayed anywhere on the vehicle itself. MR. BU RTNIAK: No, the only place wher e it would be shown is on his registration.

You don't have to display. MR. CHAIRMAN: The H onourable Member for Roblin. MR. McKENZIE: That's all I have for the moment, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAI RMAN: Resolution 67(g)(1). The Honourable Member for Ste. Rose. MR. A. R. (Pete) ADAM (Ste. Rose): I have particular questions on a half-ton. If a half-ton had a camper on it and that was high er than the allowable load, can that be considered an infraction? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR.

BUR TNIAK: As I pointed out earlier, if the truck is pulled in, even a half-ton, and he has a camper on it as you suggest and is we ighed and is found that he is overw eigh t, of course, he can be prosecuted. MR. ADAM: So the camper is load. It doesn't form part of the truck once it is attached to the truck. You can buy them as a unit now almost. MR. BU RTNIAK: You can buy the m as a unit also. Ther e are new types coming out. But those that are not as a unit, that a camper is placed on a truck, that's part of the truck load, it's not truck we ight. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 67(g) (1).

The Honourable Member for Roblin. MR. McKENZIE: I wo nder would the Minister describe for the committee maybe what are the qualifications of a highway traffic inspector? MR. BUR TNIAK: Well, I think, Mr. Chairman, perhaps it might be a good idea to take that as notice right now and perhaps I can give that background tonight or next time we meet. MR. McKENZIE: I wonder would the Minister advise the committee, how many traffic inspectors are ther e in the department? I am referring to the ones that are out in the fie ld, those types of inspectors. MR. BUR TNIAK: Mr.

Chairman, I don't have that breakdown but for the whole of the Traffic 15 07

Monday, April 4, 19 77 Inspection Division, we have 58 staff man years but I don't have that broken down as to how many in the field. MR. CHAI RMAN: The Honourable Member tor Pembina. MR. GE ORGE HEND ERSON: Mr. Chairman, when you're talking about traffic insp.ectionar e you talking now jus t about weights or could you talk about anyth ing else in this department. MR. BURTNIAK: I wonder if the honourable member could inform us what he means by "anything else". MR.

HE NDE RSON: One time last year the re were inspectors that went out - now I don't know whether they'd be from the Migays Department or the Finance Department, but they were checking ve hicles tor gasoline, the color of gasoline and they were coming right on to the farmer's yard and into his fields to check these vehicles. MR. BURTNIAK: Mr. Chairman, wh atever inspection they were trying to carry out, that certainly was not one of the hig hway inspections. Those we re from Finance. MR. HE ND ERSON: Well if they were from Finance there's no use pursuing it. MR.

CHAIRMAN: Resolution 67(g} (1 )-pass; (g) (2) - Other Expenditures-pass; (g)-pass. Resolution 67: Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty, a sum not exce eding $8,056,0 00 tor Hig hways-pass. Resolution 68, Planning and Design, (

a) Salaries. The Honourable Memb er for Rock Lake. MR. EINARSON: Mr. Chairman, under this

section I am wonde ring has the department any thoug hts about, or are they going to continue - I th ink this comes under the purview of this

section here - plans tor the deve loping of a primary and secondary road system. In other words, the maintenance, is that not part of this, or is it the material that is being used. Explain what you mean by "est ablishes design criteria and plans tor the deve lopment of a pri mary and secondary road system which will meet present and future transportation needs economically." The n I think, Mr. Chairman, we talk about railway abandonment and so on, would that be under the purview of this? Do we have to be concerned about the future of our road system? MR. BURTNIA K: That, I would think, Mr.

Chairman, in a sense would be qu ite right to say that. MR. EIN ARSON: Yes, Mr. Chairman, I think it is very important. What, if any, plans does the department have in regard to the future of our primary and secondary roacjs? Has the Minister had any contact with the responsible Minister in Ottawa insofar as our transportation system is concerned? What is the future? The way this is worded I would think that this is something that we have to be concerned about, and I am wondering what is the Minister of Hig hways doing insofar as the road system in this province is concerned?

If we are going to abandon some of our rail roads we have to have some further input into improving our roads for the heavier traffic that may be borne on those highways. And has he done anything to consult with the Federal Government to probably share some of th is cost, because I think transportation by rail is a federal responsibility. MR. BU RTNIAK: Well, Mr. Chairman, that is a very broad topic and I suppose we could probably debate this issue tor quite some time here in Comm ittee and maybe we should.

But insofar as the question on what is the department or the Minister doing in this regard , first of all I want to say that the governmen t as a whole is very concerned about the possibility of some of the branch lines that are be ing proposed to be abandoned, and we are making every effort to try and stop this abandonment policy that apparently the Federal Government is trying to ... on us. We have made a number of submissions at regional meetings as we ll as other meeti ngs, through the Minister of Industry and Commerce, and myself and other members of governm ent.

I think we have stated our views very clearly as to where the province of Manitoba stands, the Provincial Gove rnment stands, on the question of branch line abandonment. At the same time we have agreed with the Federal Govern ment, to strengthen some of our hig hways to carry 11 0 pounds gross vehicle we ights, which we are now in the process of doing. I think this is a five-year program and we are in the fourth year of the five-year program as most of the members know.

Now , in regard to some of the other roads, the province has undertaken on its own to allow for an increase in gross vehicle we ights on the remainder of our PTHs, from 7 4,000 to 80,000. Not all but I would say most of the PTHs in the Province of Manitoba have been put on higher load limits. Now how much more can be done is another question, but I would like to say this , Mr.

Chairman, in all sincer ity, if we are going to do more than probably what we should, and what I mean by this is simply that if we were to consider the increase of load weights on most of our PTHs, of 11 0,000 pounds for ex ample, as I refe rred to the agreement we have with the Federal Government on some of the other PTHs, I would also warn member s that by doing that it would be inviting problems.

Because I th ink that the Fede ral Gove rnment would then turn around and say, "Look this road and that road can now carry 90,000 or 11 0,000 pounds, and the refore, ther e's more reason why we should abandon this or that branch line." Because if the honourable members attended any of the hearings that wer e held th roughout the Province of Manitoba, when they talk about delivery points of grain, - delivery point A as opposed to delivery point B - immed iately they will look-w hen I say "they" I am talking about the railways -t hey will look at what ki nd of road exists between these two points and they will always 15 08 '

Monday, April 4, 19 77 refer to a road. Now, if we go ahead and we strengthen or upg rade these roads to carry greater amounts on these particular roads, then I think we are definite ly playing into the hands of the railway companies. I am not suggesting that we shouldn't do anything, I thi nk, as I said earlier, we are trying to suggest to the gove rnment, to make very strong representat ion to the Federal Government, the faults and the wrong that would be done by the abandonment of the branch lines' because ther e is no way, Mr.

Chairman, - I think the members will agree - that the re is no cheaper way of transporting grain than by rail. Roads cannot - it is virtually impossible to compare because the costs are so much greater for the construction of roads, the maintenance of roads, and actually the kind of loads that can be hauled. You know when you take a diesel train on the railway it can haul an awful lot of grain as compared to even the larger trucks.

So that when we look at all these things, that is why I say we are making strong representations to the Federal Govern ment to try and avoid as many of these line abandonments as possible. Now, I also say and I th ink we all have to agree too , that some branch lines may have to go. We know that some have been abandoned already, not too many, but some have been abandoned and we can't save them all. I think that many of those that are due for abandonment, that the Federal Government should be taking another look at it and I think that we, as a Provincial Government, are doing every thing to do that. MR.

EINARSON: Yes, Mr. Chairman, I thank the Minister for his comments and I hope I didn't leave the impression that I was advocating the railway abandonment. I posed the question to find out wher e is our position and what is our govern ment in the province doing to instil! in the minds of the federal authorities that we want to maintain as many of our railroads as possible to avoid the ho rrendous cost that would have to take place in improving our highw ay structure if we are going to have to carry an extra load, and that is why I posed the question, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Gladstone.

MR. JAMES R. FERGUSON: Yes, Mr. Chairman. I don't know whether this is the place to ask or not, but I wo uld like to make some inqui ries as to what the setup will be at the junction of 1 and 258? Is this the proper section, Planning and Design? The four-lane system going throu gh there. There's a lot of concern on the part of the people there. MR. BUR TNIAK: Mr. Chairman, I am told that it will not be what we call an interchange, but the re will be a yield, I believe it is. A turning lane with a yield sign. I don't know if that is what the honourable member is asking. MR.

FERGUSON: Yes, this is what I am asking, is what the set up is going to be there? It will not be a traffic light, it will be a - what a blinker? MR. BUR TNIAK: That decision has not been made, but as I said before it is not going to be an interchange. It is still in the making right now. Mr. Chairman, it is very difficultto answer these kind of questions, I am sure the honourable members appreciate.

These are technical questions that we just don't have at our fingertips, but I would think that if the honourable member would give me a note or somet hing I am sure we can answer more fully, even if not now, maybe some time in the next few days. If that is all right with the member. MR. FERGUSON: That is okay, Mr. Speaker, but the reason I am bringing this up, I've got seve ral petitions plus a considerable amount of phone calls and inquir ies so I would like to have some indication of what is going to be there in any event. MR. BUR TNIAK: Mr.

Chairman, I would just like to point out we are taking note of that and we will give the member the infor mation once we get it. MR. FERGUSON: Okay. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Minnedosa. MR. BLAKE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I suppose this is the department to bring it up under this section. I wonder if the Minister could give us some ind ication of what roads the Hig hways Department has been responsible for on Hecia Island, why they are not involved with the roads say on Black Island. It seems that we have th ree departments building roads now.

We have got Renewa ble Resources, we've got the Tourist Branch, we've got Hig hways. I wonder if he would care to comment on - are they designing the hig hways and someone else is building them? MR. BUR TNIAK: The Department of Hig hways does the survey work for these roads. On Hecia Island we did build that road, and as a matter of fact also some time ago the causeway was also built by the Department of Highw ays in conjunction with the Federal Gover nment under the FRED progr am, as I recall. MR. BLAKE: I realize the Minister might have to get this information.

I wonde r if he could te ll me what has been spent on road deve lopment on Hecia Island in say the past three or four years. If he had that at his fingertips it wo uld be helpful. MR. BUR TNIAK: Mr. Chairman, the road that I say we built, which is under the Department of High ways, was PR 233, which comes from the causeway onto the island. Ther e was four miles which was done just this past winter to the tune of $950,000 that the Department of Hig hways spent on PR 233, which leads from the causeway onto the island. But others, Tourism, the Department of Tourism 15 09

Monday, April 4, 19 77 MR. BLAKE: Have you any idea how much Tourism has built? MR. BUR TNIA K: I wo uld suggest, Mr. Chairman, that the honourable member perhaps should keep that question in mind and probably deal with that in the Estimates of the Department of . Tourism. MR. BLAKE: Further to that, Mr. Chairman, you just let a contract on Hec ia for further work on 233 for $750 ,000 or $703,1 50, eh? That's pretty near $2 million on roads on Hecia. MR. BUR TNIAK: No, no, Mr. Chairman, the honourable member is talking about the same contract that I just mentioned .

That is the contract that has already been finished. MR. BLAKE: It is finished now. MR. BUR TNIAK: Yes, the total cost is $950 ,000 ... MR. BLAKE: The re was an overrun on the ... MR. BUR TNIAK: No, no, the figure you have does not include materials, this includes materials, it's not overrun. MR. BLAKE: Okay. Wouid that include the tender for gravel at $79,000 also? MR. BURTNIAK: Right. MR. BLAKE: That was the same tender, so it is $703,000 plus $79,885 for gravel hauled to the site. MR. BUR TNIAK: Yes. MR. BLAKE: All right.

Your department would have planned and designed, or surveyed rathert he road on Black Island? MR. BUR TNIAK: No. MR. BLAKE: Renewable Resources. MR. BURTN IAK: As far as our department is concerned, on the Black Island road, we just surveyed that area, that's all. MR. BLAKE: Would the Minister just care to give us an off-the-top-of -h is-head reply to the rumour we hear that it was $700,000 over the estimated cost? MR. BURTNIA K: On which? MR. BLAKE: On Black Island. MR. BUR TNIAK: I am not able because I don't know, we don't have the answer to that question. MR. BLAKE: All right.

Is ther e furthe r work planned for Hecia? Are ther e any large tenders such as this one coming up for further work on Hecia? MR. BUR TNIAK: Not at th is particular time. MR. BLAKE: Noth ing in this program here, I just haven't gone thr ough it to check it, so ... MR. BURTNIAK: No, th at's right. MR. BLAKE: All right, thank you, Mr. Chairman. MR. BU RTNIAK: Mr. Chairman, I'm sorry. When I say not at the present time, as far as the extra work, ther e may be someth ing on by other departments, by Tou rism, but not as far as Highways is concerned, I just want to make that clear. MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Roblin. MR. McKENZIE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. On this Hig hway Strengthe ning Program , I wonde r if the Minister can advise us what routes, what arteries, provincial trunk high ways, or PR roads are be ing designated in th is province as to our future transportation system under this program? Can we have a list of those highw ays? MR. BUR TNIAK: Mr. Chairman, under the High way Strengthe ning Program ther e are no PRs included in that. MR. McKENZIE: Just PTHs. MR.

BURTNIA K: Just PTHs, and I may also point out that the province, the department or the government, did not set out as to which roads ought to be under the highway strengthe ning. This was done by the Canadian High way Systems Study, or something like that, which was strictly under the jurisdiction of the Federal Government . They said these were the roads that they would participate in, and there it was. As a matter of fact I might point out that Highwa y No. 6 was not even included on the list whic h we fough t very diligently to get on the list.

So they finally agreed in the final analysis, but the roads that were chosen were not chosen by the Department or this Government, it was chosen by the Federal Government. MR. McKENZIE: Well is the Federal Gove rnment paying the cost of that strengthening program, the total cost? MR. BUR TNIAK: They are paying 50 percent of the cost, right. MR. McKENZIE: Fifty percent. MR. BURTNIAK: Up to $32 million, whic h also includes the inflation and so on. But what that really means is that they pay strengt hen ing for anything over and above the 7 4,000 up to 11 0,000 pounds.

Ther e is no money involved, this program does not involve any money for any new construction wh atever, it is on the existing roads under the system, and only for strengthening to bring the load weights up from 74 to 11 0, they pay 50 percent of that. MR. McKENZIE: Mr. Chairman, do I understand then that the Federal Gove rnment, with this Hig hway Strengthening Program, that is in all provinces across the west, it is not only Manitoba, it is 1510

Monday, April 4, 19 77 the other provinces as we ll, they are putting up 50 percent of the money and the Province of Manitoba is matching that dollar for dollar, putting up the other 50 percent and yet they wi ll not accept any of your recommendations as to what roads should be strengthened and which ones will give us the transportation system we are looking for into the turn of the century. MR. CHAI RMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR. BU RTNIAK: No, that is quite correct. I wasn't in on the initial negotiatons but perhaps I can check this out.

Maybe this is unfair to say at this time but perhaps it was a case where eit her we bough t the package or we don't get participation. I am not sure if that is too strong language to use or not but like I say I wasn't in on the initial negotiations on this, but it appears that way. MR. McKENZIE: The Manitoba Northlands program - that is another federal program of planning transportation routes. What kind of input are we getting from the Federal Government from that progr am? MR. BUR TNIAK: Mr.

Chairman , previous to this year, I guess, they did participate on some of the existing roads, any work to be done on the existing roads. I th ink at the present time they have done away with that policy, I think it has got to be pretty we ll new construction although we were not all that much involved with the weste rn North land as tar as the Department of Hig hways is concerned. It is more with the Departments of Renewable Resources and Northern Affairs.

But we have had some participation under this program but basically mainly on the existing roads, any improvements on the existing roads whic h apparently is no longer the policy. MR. McKENZIE: Well, then, our road system is under the jurisdiction of th ree separate departments, the Department of Northern Affairs, the Department of Renewable Resources and this department. Is that correct? MR. BUR TNIAK: Basically that is correct. MR.

McKENZIE: The federal dollars then come filtering through your office, or does the Federal Gove rnment grant X nuers of dollars to Northern Affairs, X numbers of dollars to Renewable Resources, or how does that money come into the province and how is it allocated out? MR. BUR TNIAK: It does not come thr ough the Department of Hig hways wh atsoever. It comes in thr ough a different source and the re is a committee that sits on the planning and setting out a program under the Western North land. We are consulted but we are not members of that committee as such.

We are consulted from time to time but these are roads which are basically in the remote areas in the north and so you know we don't participate that much. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please. In accordance with Rule 19

(2) I am interrupting the proceedings of the Comm ittee for Private Members' Hour and shall return at 8 p.m. 15 11

THE LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMBLY of MANITOB A Monday, April 4, 19 77 ESTIMA TES - CONSUMER AN D CORPO RATE SERVICES MR. CHAI RMAN, Mr. William Jenkins (Logan): I refer honourable members to Page 1414o ft heir Estimates Book, Resolution 32, Consumer Bureau, Ad ministration

(1) Salaries $582,700. The Honourable Member for Wolseley. MR. ROBER T G. WILSON: Before we pass this section, Mr. Chairman, I wanted to just sort of recap. It indicated to me that the thi ngs I was trying to .share with the Minister and his administration was some of the thoug hts pertaining to the role of the rentalsman and of course the Act he has to impose pertaining to their role with the particular landlords and the Minister has indicated in the media that changes were coming to make the enforcement of certain sections more eq uitable. The other

section - and it's too bad he's not here today - was one in wh ich the Minister became the darling of the press, I guess the Free Press, and was backed up by the Memb er from St. Matthews. Well, the thing that really bothe red me about that was if the Member from St.

Matthews could get away with the comments of calling this particular critic a weasel, based on the fact of my 20 years experience in the credit industry, then I had to ask myself if he's going to call me that, what is he going to call the Minister because the Minister himself comes from a credit industry background and his number one man comes from a credit and finance background - Mr. Mason having formerly worked with ... Finance. His number two man, Mr. Locke, was formerly head of Goodall Rubber Company in town here dealing with credit and repossession and collection work. His number three man, Mr.

Maurice Therri en, was one of the credit union pals I talked about who, similarly, was in the credit, collection and repossess ion work. All of these thr ee top gentlemen in the Minister's department all have the same kind of credit industry background as myself. So if the Member from St. Matthews is going to infer that this critic is a very uncomplimentary name then I'm sure that maybe now the Minister might apologize for him because he is in fact painting him and his staff with the same brush.

I did want to say that, in the Landlord and Tenant Act, the position of the Rentalsman certainly has gone up in leaps and bounds. When the job was first advertised the salary range was $1 0,41 6.00. 1 see now where Mr. Mason's salary, formerly the Rentalsman, is now $33,037 'and Mr. Locke, the present Rentalsman, makes almost $21 ,000. So it seems that the position that the Member for St. Matthews didn't put much importance in has gone up considerably in the inflationary spiral.

It's also interes ting to note that the very uncomplimentary reporting which appeared in the paper which sided with the Minister and did not take any of my thoug hts into consideration. It said, "Mr. Wilson failed to do so." Mr. Wilson did present and read into the record the Penner matter and Mr. Wilson has and will be presenting to the Minister many other suggestions where I have detected a bias on behalf of his staff dealing with small businesses pertaining to debtors and the Minister himself, pertaining to the Rentalsman, seemed to indicate an admission of that in the news media.

It just seems to me to be very unfair to stand up here for two hours and offer very constructive thought s pertaining to the expenditur e of almost $800,000 in the Minister's Estimates and then to be torn apart by one-sided reporting, because number one, the Minister is comp letely inaccurate himself because he mentioned that the fees that he charges to collection agencies covers the cost, and that's a very vague statement and the Minister should explain what he means because, number one, he corralled this particular revenue and licensing from the City of Winnipeg.

Just a few years ago that responsibility was the City of Winnipeg's. The reve nue from that was the City of Winnipeg's and the $75.00 that the City charged was for a corporate license that covered all the business names under that corporation. But not this Minister, his staff rules that you must pay $330 per name. Every name you use you've got to pay $330. So that was the experience that I was talking about. The Minister corralled this revenue and corralled this so-called cost from the City of Winnipeg and surely the costs haven't gone up from $75.00 a corporation to $330 per name.

That was my comment pertaining to how it was reported pertaining to the Memb er from St. Matthews. I now have in my possession the very

article I was talking about where the Memb er from St. Matthews, under the discussions pertaining to the new legislation dealing with the Landlord and Tenant Act, said that this Act will be the best rental law and the best in North America. He said, "I t will attract many intellectual and aggressive Americans." And he says they can now live with some dignity by moving into Manitoba. That, my friends, is the type of bias against landlords and such a pro-intellectual as the Mem ber from St.

Matthews is that he could drag his friends like Professor Rogers, who wasn't even wanted in his own country and who the University of Winnipeg soon got rid of - intellectuals, that's all the Member from St. Matthews wanted under this new law. He wasn't concerned about the wo rking man and the discrepancies that had existed in the past.

And this is the kind of thing I spent the weekend researching because I was very very concerned that I had come up here with the idea of saying, all right we have got all this money to spend and I've indicated the great jump in the salaries under this department, and I don't know whether the workload has tripled like some of the salaries have, but maybe that is the case, but it just seems to me that I was trying to convey a message that maybe we cou ld gender more consumer protection and less red tape. 1512

Monday, April 4, 19 77 So with those few remarks, I basically wanted to indicate that I was less than happy the way the Minister came out being a hero because of the way he had inferred innuendoes by saying, refe r to the courts, refer to this, refer to that. He didn't stand up and te ll the Member from St.

Matthews that even his brother -in-law did collection and repossession work, that members of his staff and himself included were familiar with th is type of credit background and this to me is a plus to be able to head up a department that deals in retail purchasing, that deals with door-to-door salesme n, that deals with all aspects under consumer protection. And ther e's nobody that has bent over backwards since the 19 50s and helped tenants and landlords alike in a dispute and I feel as qualified as the Rentalsman sitting ther e today t'o be able to adjudicate these type of problems.

So when I stand up to ex amine the Minister's Estimates for over $3 million then I fee l that my particular knowledge in this particular

section is one that I want to put on the record . I want to put it on because I think that I indicated that I was concerned with the amount of credit that people were able to obtain. I was concerned with the amount of interest the banks were charging. I was also concerned with wher e we are going and the Member from St. Johns said, "We ll the stores simply add an extra $30.00 or $40.00 on to the cost of the product they're selling to take into -(l nterjection) Well, you said they won't recover a full return anyway, so they mark up their prices to take into account bad credit.

So wh atever it is I'm not saying that I disagree with you. Maybe that is something. But the point is, isn't it about time we told the public that when you're buying yourself a television set and you wonder why that same television set is $299 in Grand Forks and it's $499 in Manitoba, then you better look at the enti re umbrella of the problem because maybe part of the problem is that we're just making things too tough for the small businessman to be able to collect his just obligations. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 32(a) (1). The Honour able Member for Fort Rouge. MR. AXWORTHY: Thank you, Mr.

Chairman, I certainly don't rise to my feet to prete nd I have the same experience or background or qualifications that the Memb er from Wolseley has in th is area of looking at matters of credit. In fact I even come close to borde ring on one of those dangerous, at times, one of those dangerous creatures he just mentioned. But I have some questions for the Minister nonetheless and perhaps even some observations for him about the wor king of the Consumer Bureau. The first one I really have, Mr.

Chairman, arises out of the events of this last winter when the Rentalsman and the Consumer Office was involved in attemp ting to enfor ce the application of the Condom inium Conversion Act. And it raised in my mind at that time a question about the role that the Civil Servants in the Consumer Affairs Department have, particularly the restrictions that they have in pursuing legislation that is on the books .

It seemed to me that what had occurred in that case was an inability, not necessarily one of personal likes or dislikes, but of direction and instruction about the extent to whic h they are able to prosecute or ensure the enforcement of a particular Act of the government. I know that, Mr. Chairman, in the past I've argued in this house for a system, perhaps of a form of consumer advocacy, wher e ther e would be ability to undertake action on the part of aggrieved parties when parts of the Acts dealing with Consumer Protect ion were not being fulfilled.

Now it is quite apparent that this is not in any way part of the mandate that has been given to officers of the Consumer Bureau to undertake a more positive initiative and, to information giving and perhaps some attempt at mediation, but no attempts at advocacy or support of consumer interest in cases wher e ther e has been an abrogation or a perceived abrogation of the Act. And that is not something, Mr.

Chairman, I th ink that is necessary simply because gener ally consumers who are not organized in any large scale fashion do not have the same resources, legal.and particularly legal resources, sometimes economic resources, to compete with those who can hire them. In this case, while I know the re's been some defense of the landlord and I th ink that probably the Act does bear some review, but what is also true is that many landlords can afford to hire lawyers, consummers cannot, to help protect their interests in these matte rs.

It seems to me that one of the actions of a Consumer Bureau would be to provide for a more progressive and positive application and enforcement of Acts when ther e appears to be transgression of them. It seems to me, Mr. Chairman, as a result we have a Consumer Bureau which is relatively weak, almost puny I suppose, in terms of the actual kinds of strengths that you bring to consumer protect ion. I believe very strongly that the reason we have a Department of Consumer Affairs is to do that, to defend the consumer. I for one don't like the idea that we have a Department of Consumer and Corpo rate Affairs.

I think they are two very distinct interests that are be ing looked at and I th ink that the Minister was caught in that area. I have every support of those who attempt to defend corporate interests but I also th ink that to try and defe nd the two forces one into a totally ambiguous situation and oftenti mes ambiguity simply results in inactivity. I think that that case was clearly demonstrated in the case of the conversion problem at Regency Towers. It distressed me somewhat, Mr.

Chairman, that the apparent mandate the officers of the Consumer Bureau were wor king under was so limited as to not to provide for the full range of protection that should have been or could have been afforded consumers who were unquestionably confused by the actions being taken by the owner in that case and simply needed more than an 15 13

Monday, April 4, 19 77 answer and a phone call when a request was made. I thi nk it just simply required more series of positive initiatives in that particular circumstance. I expect, Mr. Chairman, that the same is true in many other instances that we don't seem to have yet a clear idea of exactly what the defined role of the Consumer Bureau should be. Is it simply information giving? Is it simply to provide for some form of mediation or is it to pursue, advocate the interests of consumers under the different Consumer Acts that we have presently in the statutes?

And if so, then I would say that if the last activity is considered to be part of the role then I don't think that role is being fulfilled' certainly not as well as it should be. So I think what's very important in this case, Mr.

Chairman, is that the Minister define for us, very clearly, what is the mandate under which officers of the Consumer Bureau ope rate and to what deg ree are they limited or restricted in the enforcement of the consumer laws that are on books so that we have an idea as to whether in fact the Consumer Bureau should be strengthened or at least have its mandate altered to take into account what is considered to be its more legitimate role, which is consumer protection. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 32(a) (1 ). The Honourable Memb er for Wolseley. MR. WILSO N: I had two small questions under the Consumer Protect ion Act.

I wonder if the Minister could explain the move -w hat was the desire of the Minister's department? I notice under

Section 111 (1) that any moneys collected by the credit industry, if they can't find the person who is ent itled to receive the money, they are supposed to turn the money over to the Minister. I wonder if the Minister might be able to tell us how much his gover nment collected last year in this way. How much did you receive from the credit industry under

Section 111 (1 )? If I could read it, maybe I could refresh the Minister's ... It says, "In this respect The Consumer Protection Act makes provision under

Section 111 (1 ) that moneys collected under such circumstances are to be remitted to the Minister." The second

part is, "In the application for employment or for a license, the Minister has a

section which deals with a period of ten years" and I wondered if this was not a little long in time. It seems to me, under the Criminal Code, usually after five years a juvenile's record is wiped out. It says here that a person can be refused emp loyment if it should be proved that he has been convicted under any federal or provincial law under this

Section or has a criminal record or has been convicted of an offe nse. It seemed to me to be rather punitive. Under the Human Rights Act you have the ability of people that have judgements, bankruptcies, that are in debt and possibly have a criminal record that are able to work in other industries and I wonder if the Minister might care to comment if he fee ls this ten year period is too long. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR. TOUPIN: Mr. Chairman, could I ask the Honourable Member for Wolseley to clarify his last question please? MR. WILSON: Well, I have before me a Form 1. It's called Ap plication for Licenses as a collection agent in the Province of Manitoba and under

section 4, it says, "H as the applicant or any person named in Item 2 of this application and in

section (

b) been convicted of an offence under any federal or provincial law within the last ten years?" My comment is: Does the ten year period not see m a little punative? MR. TOUPIN: Well, Mr. Chairman, in regard to the initial comments of today of the Memb er for Wolseley, I have never considered myself to be the darling of the Free Press. I don't believe that any

article that they published on the wee kend would justify the comment made by the Member for Wolseley and I'm certainly not in the position to apologize, if apology is desired on the part of the Memb er for Wolseley from the Member for St. Matthews. If the member feels that he should get an apology, he should seek that apology from the Member that made the comments that were printed by the Free Press.

I've never felt that my background in saving and credit was a detriment to my possible contribution to society whether it be in public, private or co-ope rative life and I've never indicated that the credit or collection background of the Member for Wolseley would give any adverse reaction to his political actions of today or in the future. I thi nk we're often judged by people who don't really know what they're judging. I th ink we should, as individ uals, be reluctant to judge others and if we are to judge any one or deal with any one, we should deal with them as we like to be dealt with ourselves.

I wo uld like to indicate, Mr. Chairman, that the license fee for collectors is a license fee that, I repeat, that brings approximately $8,000 in revenue. It's ther e to just about break even in regard to costs related the reto and here I'm referring to what I said last week in regard to the $330 fee, so what else can I say? I can't justify a fee of $75.00 for the City of Winnipeg. I don't know why they had such a fee or if they had less of a staff or related expenses pertaining to administration of such a fee but I'm indicating that the amount that is raised by this

section of the department is approximately $8,000 and covers costs of staff and other expenses. The Memb er for Fort Rouge indicates problems pertaining to the administration and the enforcement of the Condominium Act and he put on the record today, as he did a few months before 1514

Monday, April 4, 19 77 the opening of the session, the Regency Towers. The Honour able Memb er knows of the file that we have in regard to Regency Towers and other blocks that had an intention of conversion. For his benefit, I could bring that file up to date; I don't have it before me now. I happen to believe that possibly ther e could be more done by our office pertaining to bringing to the forefront the right s of individuals that are tenants, espe cially whe n we 're told of complaints by tenants. That I see as a role of the Consumer Bureau itself. I think it's basically reacting to complaints by consumers.

Unfortunately, and I could relate some of the thi ngs we are doing in the urban and rural areas in the province in regard to educational material and courses that are being given in schools and othe r meetings that are be ing held to inform as best we can consumers but basically the time spent by our consumer officer s are spent in regard to - I wo uldn't say figh ting fires, but certainly in regard to reacting to complaints and informing consumers of the ir rights pertaining to the Consumer Protect ion Act and Reg ulations.

For the benefit of other members of the House certainly, I wo uld like to quote some of the responsibility unde r the Consumer Protection Act as passed in 1969 and early 1970 that related to The Consumer Protection Act. The Landlord and Tenant Act was amended by the addition of

Part IV. This, as the honourable member knows, changed a law pertaining to residential tenancy and provided for the establishment of the Office of the Rentalsman. The office commenced operation later in 1970. Since incepti on, the Bureau and the Rentalsman have experienced annual increases in public demand for thei r services, and I could go into very finite details pertaining to the number of complaints and wher e the complaints originated from to leave an indication of what is being done. Some of the recent increases are shown in the tables that I could refe r to.

Both Acts have been amended as the necessity became apparent. Furthermor e, the Bureau has since been assigned responsibility for the administration of The Personal Investi gation Act, The Private Trade Schools Act, The Cemeteries Act, Bedd ing and Up holstery Regulation under the Public Health Act and part of The Hearing Aid Act . The additional responsibilities has increased the work load for the bureau staff. With increasing responsibilities and activities, it has been necessary to increase the staff in each of the offices.

In the last th ree years, however, the rate of staff increase has declined and this can be largely attributed to improved staff capability and performance. The function of each of the offices is basically to receive and investigate consumer and landlord-tenant complaints. These are remedial activities. Equal attention is given to a preventive program. Wher e citizens are knowledgeable of their legal rights and remedies as we ll as their social responsibilities, misunderstandings and frustrations can be avoided.

In an endeavour to improve public knowledge and awareness, a comprehensiv e consumer communications program is be ing continuously developed and presented through various mediums. The program included some advertising but this has been somewhat curtailed in accordance with the exp enditur e restraint program. It is not felt that the program has suffered, however, because greater empha sis has been placed on personal contacts and presentation on individual as we ll as collective basis.

The extent to which the services of the division are utilized by the public, demo nstrates the value of modern progressive legislation that is relevant to current market practices and products. Eventually the need for other new legislation may become apparent and at that time, appropr iate recommendation will be subm itted for consideration by the House. In the meantime, the division will continue to funtion, I believe, effectively with fairness and impartiality for the benefit of all Manitoba citizens.

The Consumer Bureau has responsibility, as I indicated, for The Consumer Protection Act itself, Personal Investigation Act, The Hearing Aid Act, The Cemeteries Act, The Private Trade Schools Act, Bedding and Uph olstery Reg ulation. I can go into the detailed responsibility and growth in regard to complaints if that is desired by our honourable members. This is quite lengthy but I believe it's information that I can either read into the record or make available to honourable members. MR.

WILSON: I wonder if the Minister might tell me if he's still in charge of The Cemeteries Act, does this mean that the high cost of burial in the province is the responsibility of the Minister over ther e because it does say that the rates charged by the owner s are subject to his approval? I wondered if the Minister would care to comment on his duties under this Act. MR. TOUPIN: Yes, Mr. Chai rman, it comes under the responsibility that I now ... Before an increase is authorized, it has to be justified and a recommendation is made.

But that doesn't mean that I happen to believe that all costs related to funerals are necessarily at the level that they should be. I happen to believe that funer als could be performed for a lesser cost, possibly by a different method, and I've talked about this quit e often. As an example, in Alberta, they have a system that I be lieve could be looked at very closely here in the Province of Manitoba where, as an ex ample, a coffin is not sold but leased and it's a temporary coffin. The box itself is dropped and the coffin is leased again. I don't see why this is not be ing considered in the province here.

It's much cheaper and you know, what's the use of bur ying an 1515

Monday, April 4, 19 77 expensive coffin? You know, these are things that could be looked at by the co-ope rative move ment, by private industry, by any group. I don't happen to believe that it has to be done by the Crown. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member tor Fort Rouge. MR. AXWORTHY: Mr. Chairman, the Minister's reply to the questions I raised indicated that he carries some of the same reservations with the way the Consumer Bureau ope rates that I have about the kind of role they can play in consumer protection and it does really twi nge my curiosity as to what's he going to do about it?

He mentioned two specific cases that ther e was going to be, he felt or should be, a greater activity in terms of the information given about rights that the tenants have in relation to the different Acts, whether it's Condom inium or Landlord and Tenant, and secondly, that in the activity related to consumer, I think he was talking about -w e got into some of th ose words I think that can only be drafted by good speech writers, something about "if and when circumstances are appropriate, then recommendations will be made to the House." Well, I would like him to be more specific. What circumstances?

Does he th ink the circumstances now are appropriate for us to review the operation of the Consumer Bureau in terms of its ability to prosecute the interest of consumers, whether through legal means or other means, in a more aggressive way as opposed to simply becom ing the repositories for information if and when a complaint is reached? I can recall, Mr.

Chairman, that in the Province of British Columbia when it had a government of the same party that the Minister belongs to, they brought in a very different kind of Consumer Protection Act than the one we had in Manitoba, one that I would suggest is far more prog ressive than the one we have here - speech writing aside -w hich did give the Department of Consumer Affairs in that province a capacity to initiate certain actions on be half of consumers and eve n moved to the point which I think could be a very important change, would be the initiation of class-action suits.

The one thing that we do not have in this case, Mr. Chairman, is the ability wher e consumers who again are limited by their resources as individuals, when a certain transgression under the Consumer Act is taken, that the abil ity to take a class-action suit could be a very important means of protection provided that the change of legislation and giving them the right to take that action into the courts. Now, that would put a certain onus on the Consumer Bureau to help initiate and support such class actions. Again I think, Mr.

Chairman, if you consider what the record is if you're interested in consumer protection and not simply having

an Act by that name and having a group that gives out some pamph lets every once in a wh ile, if you really are interested in consumer protection, then you have to have things that have some teeth in the m, you know, that have some power to it and not simply go through the motions of bei ng a kind of a quasi-educational body or refe rral agency.

Protection does mean that you have to equalize strengths and if ther e is a case where one group has far less strength than the other, then to my mind, the role of the Bureau should be to equalize those strengths to make sure the consumer is at least afforded the same abilities to pursue their interest as does the corporate side whic h is the other side of the Minister's jur isdiction which is again I say why I don't think having the two roles in the same department make much sense.

But be that as it may, I would think that perhaps the Minister could indicate to us, based upon his description to us that ther e may be times whe n the role and activity of the Bureau should be reviewed and the legislation should be changed, whether in fact he is taking into account or looking at the potential of changing the legislation to allow class action to be undertaken in the protection of consumer interests, whether he sees changing the role of the Consumer Bureau to the more aggressive in enforcement of those rights and, in fact, allowing the Bureau to initiate proceedings when and if it's necessary to ensure the protections are made as opposed to simply it's present infor mation and ed ucational role.

Now that does take the Bureau one very significant step further down the track of consumer protection than what we presently have. I would like to really know what the Minister is doing to make that kind of assessment, whether the degree to which the consumer is prese ntly protected is considered to be adequate, how does he judge that, and if so, wha t other kind of evaluation is he undertaking to deter mine whether the kind of changes which I simply raise as suggestions should be looked at? MR. TOUPIN: Well, Mr.

Chai rman, again, in regard to what is possible by the multi-facet responsibility of the Consumer Bureau itself, there will be legislation, ther e is legislation now forfi rst reading before the House that will, I be lieve, certainly rectify some of the problems that we talked about last Friday.

I believe that amendments to regulations pertai ning ther eto, and again we're not in a position to discuss the Landlord and Tenant Act that was introd uced tor fir st reading because we don't have the bill before us and I don't think it would be proper to start discussing such amendm ents, but that certainly would be a way of rectifying some of the problems as I see them. There have been amendments to regulations in the short while that I've been given the responsibility for this department.

Ther e is discussions taking place now pertaining to the subject matter raised by the Honourable Mem ber for Fort Rouge in regard to class action and that the Bureau should commence class actions on be half of consumers. Ther e is no legal basis at this time for such 1516

Monday, April 4, 19 77 action by the Bureau and I happen to believe that we'd need additional staff people to be able to do this effectively and I can tell the honourable memb er that it's being considered in regard to advisability but it is not planned in the budget that we have before us that this service would be offered in the year 1977 so that's you know, poor consolation in a sense to possibly those suffering from that lack of service. But again, I believe it's impossible for any bureau, whether it be at the provincial or fed eral level, to answer all the needs of consumers all at the same time.

It has to be phased in. This year was not considered to be the year to increase the amount drastically in regard to the budget of Consumer, Corpo rate and Internal Services. I happen to believe that the combination of respon sibilitie s of Consumer, Corpo rate and Internal Services and even Co-operative Development don't clash with one another. An MLA, certainly a Minister sho uld be flexible enough to deal with problems of many people at the same time and to respect the rights of all of them. That's exactly what a Minister has to do. Civil servants usually worki ng in the consumer

section of the department are able to do so while feeling divorced from the Corporate Branch and the recommendations that I receive, as an example, from the Director of the Consumer Bureau, although he can consult with the director of the Corpo rate sector, usually it is somewhat in isolation of the needs of the other sector so I don't see a conflict. It is not because I presently hold those responsibilities but I believe that it is an acceptable combi nation, not one that I am willing to recommend a change. On the contrary I recommende d a similar arrangement back in 1969. MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Meer for Fort Rouge. MR. AXWORHTV: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I think the Minister is beginning to provide us with some further amplification of what might be expected in the Consumer Bureau. Let me just raise with him a couple of other questions, that if he now says that the question of class action is being considered , I thi nk the next question is: By who m? Is it simply a matter of internal study with the department itself? Is it being looked at from a point of view of Cabinet discussions?

Have they undertaken discussions with different of the private groups, both the Consumers Association, perhaps the legal fraternity, perhaps tho se in the Chamber of Commerce, they may also be affected?

In other words to what degr ee have you extended the examination of this issue of class action which is an important one to make sure that we have a full weight of opinions being brought to bear on it and it would be very helpful for members of this House to know at what stage there has been or perhaps at what stage the examination of this issue has now reached and is it really a matter of being form ulated into a policy proposal that might be considered by the government or is this simply a matter of speculation? And if so, Mr.

Chairman, I would raise a second question whic h comes back to not a question of spe nding more money in the Department of Consumer Affairs, but spending it in different ways.

That if you in a time of restraint are limited to the number of staff that you can employ, I might suggest to them that the employmentw ould be very utilized in terms of the prosecution of consumer interests as opposed to the supplying of the pamphlet side of the operation wh ich from the experience I have had reaches relatively few people, does not have a wide spread circulation, and while I respect the interests of going into schools and stuff and would not necessarily want to deny that, I am wondering again when it comes down to the defi ning of what the real role should be, whether in fact we shouldn't be transferri ng the priority more into the enforcement side than into the educational side.

And I believe that the range of education that can be done through Consumer Affai rs might as easily be handled ofte ntimes by the private associations wor king in the field, like the Consumers Association, and that the real activity of the Consumers Bureau would be one of making sure that the laws thems elves are upheld strictly and fairly but also making sure that if there are any inequalities that are faced because of the inequality of resources, which is the practical problem, tho se would in fact be rectified.

And I wo nder if in fact the Minister has any plans, not only to consider the question of class action, but also to consider re-establishing or restyling the priorities of the Bureau more in the line that I am suggesting. MR. TOUPIN: Well, Mr. Chairman , again I guess it is a question of who is setting the policy and for what reason.

First of all the honourable meer is aware that yes, we may feel or reflect an attitude of wanting in this area pertaining to actions by the Consumer Bureau in helping people place and help individuals in regard to class actions, but yet if we look at the Legal Aid system in the Province of Manitoba, it is considered by tho se involved in service that it exceeds Legal Aid service in other provinces in Canada. Not all provinces, but some provinces in Canada, have a Legal Aid system that is inferior to ours.

I happen to believe that pertaining to the consumer education that yes, we do have to fight hard, we do have to help people in need, but I happen to believe that in helping people prevent problems is the solution instead of fig hting fires aftert he fact. That is why I have accepted to recommend the type of policy that would see to it that an educational system in our public school system would come before this. What is contemplated here in regard to the class action study, it's inter nal. By all means we are 15 17

Monday, April 4, 19 77 discussing same with other departments of government involved and individuals in the industry but it hasn't come to the Cabinet level, say, recommendation stage, yet because we are not ready for this. We are not ready to ask, say, for X nuer of staff man years and, say, X numbers of dollars for the service and I am not in a position to recomme nd that we cut off, as an example, $25,000 in pamphlets from the general pub lic or the school system, to offer this at this time.

So that is really wher e we are at but that doesn't mean that we don't attach importance to what the honourable member is talking about because the study has not started today because he raised it, it was under way and it has been ongoing. I don't exactly know how long but it has been looked at and hope fully when funds become available in regard to raising additional funds or cutting existing programs that this would be one that wo uld be considered to be advisable to look at very seriously. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Hon ourable Mem ber for As siniboia. MR. STEVE PATRICK: Mr.

Chairman, under this item I am somewhat concerned if the Consumers Bureau is doing the job it was supposed to or intended to do when the legislation was passed in this House. I think perhaps our expectat ions were too high at that time but I am convinced now perhaps much more than I ever was that I am not satisfied that the Consumers Bureau is really inform ing the general public and it seems that at least our youngsters are not aware of their rights when it comes to consumers' rights.

Now I am sure that the Minister can tell us a little more about the kind of calls that he is getting, how many calls he gets in a year, how many complaints are resolved and what kind of comp laints he is getting from the people because surely I believe that the consumer should be able to use the Consumer Bureau by phoning and having his complaints rectified.

Has the Minister under this department, and I think it is a very important part of his department, the Consumer Bureau, has the Minister enough legislation or has he got powers to issue an order to cease and desist when he knows that there are fraudulent practices going on or somebody is carrying out a fraudulent practice? Can he stop that or does he have to apply to the courts and this may take a long time. I am not fully convinced that what was intended under this legislation, because, Mr.

Chairman, in my opinion across the line in the United States their consumer legislation is much further advanced than ours and it is doing a better job and people are more aware of their rights. We still have to talk about such things as warranty systems that many people have problems with. The problem is, Mr. Chairman, that somehow there

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	30-4-32a
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	30th 4th hansardpdf 32a.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	a2af705522358f0a3540cab0d512c1b466edecea

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