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April 23,

RESOURCE COMMITTEE

Pursuant to Standing Order 68, Eddie Joyce, MHA for Bay of Islands,

substitutes for Jim Bennett, MHA for St. Barbe.

Pursuant to Standing Order 68, Christopher Mitchelmore, MHA for The Straits

White Bay North, substitutes for Lorraine Michael, MHA for Signal Hill Quidi

Vidi.

The Committee met at 9:00 a.m. in the Assembly Chamber.

CHAIR (Brazil): Okay, ladies and gentlemen, if I could have your

attention. I want to welcome everybody to the Estimates hearings for the

Department of Tourism, Culture and Recreation.

First, to do some housekeeping, I want to note that Mr. Eddie Joyce will be

replacing Mr. Jim Bennett, and Mr. Christopher Mitchelmore will be replacing Ms

Lorraine Michael. That is part of that.

Could I have a nomination for Vice-Chair?

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) Mr. Eddie Joyce.

CHAIR: Eddie Joyce has been nominated.

Any other nominees?

All those in favour, signify by saying aye'.

CLERK (Ms Hammond): You need a seconder.

Okay, sorry, we do need a seconder for that.

MS PERRY: I will second it.

CHAIR: Seconded by the Member for Fortune Bay Cape La Hune.

All those in favour, signify by saying aye'.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye.

CHAIR: Opposed?

Mr. Joyce is the Vice-Chair.

On motion, Mr. Joyce was elected Vice-Chair pro tem .

I would like to first start, before we do introductions, by having a motion

to adopt the minutes of the Resource Committee meeting for the Department of

Environment and Conservation which was held on April 18.

A motion to adopt the minutes?

MR. JOYCE: So moved.

CHAIR: Moved by Mr. Joyce.

I am going to ask the Page to distribute the minutes, please.

I will call that all in favour of adopting the minutes signify by saying

aye'.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye.

CHAIR: Opposed?

Minutes carried.

On motion, minutes adopted as circulated.

CHAIR: I would like to start by welcoming everybody, particularly the

minister, his staff, and the Committee members themselves.

I would ask the Committee members and the staff with the members to introduce

themselves. Then I will ask the minister to introduce himself and his staff.

I do ask, when a question is asked - and, Minister, if you pass it to one of

your staff - that they identify themselves and wait until the light comes on. It

will take a couple of minutes for the flow to go so that the Broadcast Centre is

comfortable with the individual coming up. They will get the light on as quickly

as possible.

We will start.

Mr. Joyce.

MR. JOYCE: I do not know if the minister wants to have a few words. He

usually does.

CHAIR: No, I am just asking you to introduce yourself.

MR. JOYCE: Eddie Joyce, MHA for Bay of Islands sorry.

MR. LETTO: Graham Letto, Researcher.

MR. MITCHELMORE: Christopher Mitchelmore, MHA for The Straits White Bay

North.

MS WILLIAMS: Susan Williams, Researcher.

MS PERRY: Tracey Perry, MHA.

MR. POLLARD: Kevin Pollard, Baie Verte Springdale MHA.

MR. CROSS: Eli Cross, Bonavista North MHA.

CHAIR: Minister.

MR. FRENCH: Terry French, Minister of Tourism, Culture and Recreation. To

my left is Judith Hearn, Deputy Minister; Mark Jones, Assistant Deputy Minister

for Culture and Recreation; and Carmela Murphy, Acting Assistant Deputy Minister

of Tourism. It is her first day on the job so she is taking all the questions

today. Behind me is Barry Petten, Executive Assistant; Denise Hanrahan,

Departmental Controller; and Jason Card, Director of Communications.

CHAIR: Thank you, Minister.

Before I turn it over to you to do sort of an interlude, an overview of the

department's budget this year, I will note that the process I will use is that I

will give each speaker twelve to fifteen minutes so that we can have some

continuity going back and forth.

If you are close to the end of a section, at the end of each

section I will

call for a motion to adopt that section. If you only have a question or so left,

I will ask. If you do, you can continue, or if you would like to turn it to the

other speaker.

Mr. Minister, the floor is yours.

MR. FRENCH: Thank you very much.

Thanks to the Committee for coming out, of course. As always, we will go

through this process. A lot of the line-by-line stuff will probably be done by a

lot of the staff, but certainly I will take most of the questions as need be

throughout the process here.

There are three areas that have gotten the most attention from the

efficiencies we found through this Budget process. Tourism Marketing was taken

back by about $4 million, from $13 million to about $9 million. Since 2006, we

have invested $94 million in Tourism Marketing, which is no small chunk of

change. We are still significantly ahead of some other provinces throughout the

country. Obviously, when we had to find efficiencies that is where we found $4

million of it. That is not to say that $4 million is going to be gone forever.

In this year in particular, we were in such a Budget crunch that is where we

found the largest piece of the efficiency.

The other place was The Rooms. The Rooms had about a $7 million budget. This

year they have about a $6 million. The Rooms had eighty-eight staff working

previous to this Budget process, seventy full-time and eighteen part-time; they

now have fifty-seven full-time and eighteen part-time. Just let me say on that,

speaking personally and I know speaking from all of us in government, there is

nobody who is not affected by some of these job reductions. I, personally, have

family, friends, and so on that are affected, and many of us are. There is

certainly no glory in making these decisions sometimes, but unfortunately that

is the way it is.

The other piece, of course, is Stephenville training centre. The Stephenville

training centre is a facility that costs us between $200,000 and $300,000 a

year. Stephenville training centre stopped being a provincial training centre

about twelve or fifteen years ago. Right now what you have in Stephenville is a

municipal or regional recreation facility, which I am totally delighted they

have, by the way. Obviously, we promote it. We have invested $172 million since

2006 in the recreation infrastructure. So obviously we do not want to see places

close up, but there comes a time when governments cannot provide staffing and

programming for certain municipalities in the Province.

For example, I know my own municipality and I know there is not a

municipality in the Province that would not love to have government running a

recreation facility, staffing it and paying for it. So it is a little unfair to

those we do not do it for, plus the fact that now recreation should be provided

by the municipality or the region it is in, as they do in Mount Pearl, as they

do in CBS, as they do in St. Anthony, and as they do in many other places

throughout the Province.

These are the three that I wanted to touch on because I know these are the

most sensitive. Certainly there has been the most pushback publicly on it. I

want to lay it out for you and some of the rationale for why we went that way.

That is all I have to say, but feel free, open the floor and let her go.

CHAIR: Thank you, Mr. Minister.

I am going to ask the Clerk now to call the first heading and then I will get

into Mr. Joyce right after that.

CLERK: 1.1.01.

CHAIR: Mr. Joyce, for the first heading.

MR. JOYCE: Thank you very much.

Thank you, Minister and all the officials, for showing up today and answering

our questions. Minister, I am going to go through some of the line items first

and general discussions on things that you just brought up later.

In 1.2.01.01, Salaries, last year it was budgeted for $612,000. It went up to

$883,000. It is back to $623,000. Why the big increase there last year?

MR. FRENCH: There is a $270,000 difference. We had two people retire who

have had long-term service. One was a departmental secretary, Mary Pretty. You

probably know her. Of course, the other one was Jimmy Tee. Both of them had been

in the government for a long, long time. Both of them incurred the $270,000 if I

am correct.

Sorry, Rick Hayward was the deputy minister. Rick Hayward was the big chunk

there.

MR. JOYCE: Okay. So Jimmy Tee is still working?

MR. FRENCH: No, Jimmy is retired.

MR. JOYCE: Jimmy is retired, okay.

1.2.04, last year in Professional Services, $7,500; there was no money

allocated but it went up to $7,500.

MR. FRENCH: 1.2.04, yes. Where to there?

MR. JOYCE: There was nothing budgeted and it went up to $7,500, 05 under

1.2.04, Professional Services.

MR. FRENCH: There was a land appraisal done in Cupids for the land we are

in the process of purchasing for the site over there.

MR. JOYCE: Okay.

06, the budgeted was $200,000 for Purchased Services; you only spent $1,800,

but it is back up to $197,000 this year.

MR. FRENCH: We are redoing some work on the Argentia VIC.

MR. JOYCE: Pardon me?

MR. FRENCH: Argentia, the Visitor Information Centre, and it just never

got spent. It never got all out the door, so that is why it is back again this

year. It is for renovations.

MR. JOYCE: Renovations; okay.

In Property, Furnishings and Equipment, there was $250,000 budgeted and the

revised was $42,000, but it is back up to $250,000 again.

MR. FRENCH: Again, that goes back to Cupids. This has been on the books

now for about three or four years and it is rolled over constantly because there

is some debate obviously going on between the owner of the land and the

expropriation of it.

MR. JOYCE: Is this money to buy the land?

MR. FRENCH: Yes.

MR. JOYCE: Okay.

MR. FRENCH: The first $7,500 was for the appraisal and this is for the

purchase.

MR. JOYCE: Okay.

In Grants and Subsidies, there was budgeted $9,459,500 and there was $5

million when it was revised, but it is back up to $9,506,700.

MR. FRENCH: That is the Colonial Building. It is the work on the Colonial

Building. We give the grant to The Rooms and The Rooms spends it. Again, it

never got out the door. This is why it is back to where it was previous years;

continual things, $22 million or $23 million projects, so every year there is

capital that flows through our department.

MR. JOYCE: This is part of the Colonial Building, again. It looks

different until you explain it.

MR. FRENCH: Yes.

MR. JOYCE: Minister, 2.1.01, Tourism Marketing, 05, Professional

Services, there was $255,000 allocated, $126,000 revised, but it is back up to

$233,000.

MS HEARN: This is just a piece that will vary from year to year on

Professional Services contracts. In this year we found some efficiencies in

Professional Services, but the money is back in for the following year because

Professional Services, when it comes to tourism marketing, varies from year to

year.

MR. JOYCE: What type of services, may I ask?

MS HEARN: Oh, yes, of course, it is the tourism research. We just did a

big piece on our tourism research exit survey. This year we would have been

getting the results out. Next year we will be starting research again. So you

can see from year to year the research costs will change.

MR. JOYCE: 06. Purchased Services; it was $12,190,000, it went to

$12,040,000, and this year it is $8,253,900. Is this the $4 million cut?

MR. FRENCH: Yes, that is the reduction to the marketing budget.

MR. JOYCE: Before this decision was made, was there any risk and what

impact would it be? I stood up in the House and praised up the marketing. I

thought it was great, the program, the ads, and the marketing. I just thought it

was great. It was the best I ever saw. Was there any analysis on the potential

impact before the cut was made?

MR. FRENCH: Well, first of all, we had to find savings. We looked through

government and we had to find places. Tourism Marketing is an area that has

grown significantly over the last number of years. Since 2006, like I said, we

invested $94 million in that area alone. So we decided this year we would take

$4 million out of that. We currently have sixteen chapters, as we like to call

them, or ads done that are playing at various rates. I think the last eight or

nine are currently in the market.

The idea of it is to reduce it this year, knowing full well we still have

these amounts of ads in the can. We have to get together now. What is happening

now is our marketing team in the department is sitting down with Target

Marketing and coming up with a marketing plan based on $9 million instead of

based on $13 million.

We are still in the market significant; $9 million is not a bad chunk. We are

still ahead of places like Manitoba and Saskatchewan in our marketing budgets,

and Prince Edward Island. We have not dropped off the table. It is not meant to

be a permanent thing; it is certainly meant to be a temporary thing.

Now, whether we develop with that $9 million for example, the Torngat ad

cost $1 million. A lot of the other ones have cost $500,000. It varies,

depending on which one you look at. The big thing here is that we do not lose

momentum, and we are conscious of that. So now the marketing team has to come up

with a plan.

Of course, another big marketing venue for us now is online marketing. In

2007 or 2008, online marketing was costing us about $200,000 or $300,000 a year;

now it is $1 million a year. That is another area we have.

MR. JOYCE: Before that money was cut, was there any consultation with the

industry or was it just the decision had to be made within the department at the

time?

MR. FRENCH: No, it was a budgetary decision, a straight budgetary

decision. There was no consultation on how big the marketing budget would be for

the next particular year. No, there was not.

Now, having said that, we have a Tourism Board that I have met with, and they

are now putting together proposals of some of the things they would like to see

coming forward. Obviously, no one liked a $9 million cut. It would be foolish

for me to say any different. Everybody was like, oh my God, you are not going to

cut us; and, of course, everybody who loses money who relies on government feels

the same way. It was a tough decision to make, but one that we have had to make.

Like I said, hopefully it will not be for too long.

MR. JOYCE: Thank you.

Subhead 2.1.02, Salaries: They go from $2,084,000 in the budget, and the

revised was $2,107,000. This year it is down to $1,686,000. How many people were

given their layoffs from the department?

MR. FRENCH: There were thirty-three people in total, thirty-three

positions. Thirteen of them were from The Rooms, overall throughout the whole

department. That is twenty people within the department, thirteen at The Rooms.

MR. JOYCE: The Corner Brook office: Is that going to remain open?

MR. FRENCH: The what?

MR. JOYCE: The Corner Brook office.

MR. FRENCH: Yes.

MR. JOYCE: With one staff or is it

MR. FRENCH: One. There were two IDOs there and there is now going to be

one.

MR. JOYCE: Yes. When this person retires at the end of the month, it is

just going to stay with one?

MR. FRENCH: Right.

MR. JOYCE: Is that a bit of a downgrade for the Western Region?

MR. FRENCH: We still invest significantly from a tourism perspective

right across the Province, whether it is through season extension stuff in that

region. We do a big piece there in the winter, as you are aware of certainly.

MR. JOYCE: Do what in the winter?

MR. FRENCH: I said a big piece we do there in the winter through that big

festival that they have. I am trying to remember the name of it now. You can

tell me; I know it is right off the top of your head. It is a winter festival in

Corner Brook.

MR. JOYCE: Oh, the winter carnival.

MR. FRENCH: Snow West, is it? Snow West for that region of the Province.

We are still investing significantly. You are right, the IDO is going to be

busier, no doubt, and we had to find

MR. JOYCE: Is there any support staff with that?

MR. FRENCH: No, the support staff we have there now is the Western DMO.

The Western DMO is something that we started, as you know, a few years back now

and we fund them. We give them funding for their salaries of $150,000 a year,

plus they get into other pieces of work that we do through product development

and so on, other small amounts of money.

They are doing a great piece of work now whereby we have allowed them to

generate their own revenues from advertising online, so they can have their own

page and sell it to various we are hoping that the DMO is going to pick up a

lot of the work that was done by two.

MR. JOYCE: The what?

MR. FRENCH: The Destination Management Organization.

MR. JOYCE: How many people are on that out in the Western Region, the

Corner Brook region?

MR. FRENCH: On the DMO staff?

MR. JOYCE: Yes.

MR. FRENCH: I would say they probably have three. Do you have any idea,

Carmela, how many staff they have at Western DMO?

MS MURPHY: They do have three.

MR. JOYCE: Okay.

Out of this decrease in Salaries, is that the two or three people from the

West Coast Training Centre also?

MR. FRENCH: No, there is a closure of the VIC in North Sydney and we have

also eliminated three positions, a Clerk Typist and the two IDOs, one in St.

John's do you want to fill me in on this, Judith, where those three positions

MR. JOYCE: How about the staff that was from the West Coast Training

Centre? Is that under Tourism?

MR. FRENCH: No.

MR. JOYCE: That is under Transportation and Works?

MR. FRENCH: No, that is coming. That is in Recreation.

MR. JOYCE: So, this is just part of the layoffs here?

MR. FRENCH: Yes, part of the twenty.

MR. JOYCE: Okay.

Line 10, Grants and Subsidies: It went down to $301,000, the budget and the

revised, and this year it is up to $4,621,000.

MR. FRENCH: That is the Convention Centre. Again, that is where the

capital for the Convention Centre flows in through here and goes to the

Convention Centre.

MR. JOYCE: How much for the Convention Centre out of that? Will it still

stay at $301,000 for Grants and Subsidies?

MR. FRENCH: Yes; $4 million is for the Convention Centre.

MR. JOYCE: So Grants and Subsidies will it increase over $300,000?

MR. FRENCH: Say that again, please.

MR. JOYCE: The Grants and Subsidies for the budget in 2012-2013 was

$301,000, the revised was $301,000, and if $4 million went to the Convention

Centre that means there is $621,000 for other grants and

MR. FRENCH: Actually, it is $4.4 million for the Convention Centre.

MR. JOYCE: Okay, $4.4 million.

The Grants and Subsidies this year has dropped a bit.

MR. FRENCH: Judith, do you want to respond to that?

MS HEARN: Yes, it has dropped a little bit, but we have seen some money

move from

section to

section so you will see the $4.4 million commitment to the

St. John's Convention Centre and you will see that there are other funds that

are picked up in other sections of the budget, so this is Strategic Product

Development. East Coast Trails was funded out of this portion of the budget. It

is now being funded under the marketing side of the budget, so there has been a

little bit of shifting there, but roughly the same pieces are being funded as

last year. The big significant change is (inaudible)

MR. JOYCE: Minister, the Grants and Subsidies, the smaller grants help

out, they do show benefits.

MR. FRENCH: When we get into the Recreation piece, you will see they have

not changed one bit.

MR. JOYCE: Even the small I am assuming these here are the capital

grants? I have seen some positive benefits from the capital grants also.

MR. FRENCH: Oh yes, me too.

MR. JOYCE: Okay, I will call

CHAIR: Yes, if you have completed that section, well you are almost at

the end of it

MR. JOYCE: Yes.

CHAIR: I will go back to Mr. Mitchelmore. Are you good on that part of

Tourism?

MR. JOYCE: Yes, right now I am.

CHAIR: Okay, perfect.

Mr. Mitchelmore, I will go to you on subhead 1.1.01 to start, please.

MR. MITCHELMORE: Okay, great. Thanks, Minister French for yourself and

your staff here to answer questions on the Department of Tourism, Culture and

Recreation.

Before I get into the

section of 1.1.01, I just wanted to ask about the

overall cuts, because the Salary Details lists 106 permanent employees, and the

last public report that was put forward on the organization for 2011-2012 listed

147 permanent employees. So that accounts for a loss of about one-third of the

department staff in the past two years. Is there an explanation for that?

MR. FRENCH: No, just for the efficiencies this time, there were twenty

positions or the equivalent of twenty positions cut from the department. Most of

them well, I guess right throughout the Province. Then another thirteen were

taken from The Rooms. So it is actually thirty-three positions in total in this

coming year, less than the previous year. There is no specific reason, other

than we have grown as a department previous to that. So, this is where we tried

to find efficiencies.

MR. MITCHELMORE: Where were the other twenty-one cuts then beyond the

twenty that you are identifying in this year's budget?

MR. FRENCH: The other twenty-one?

MR. MITCHELMORE: In 2011-2012, there were 147 staff and now there is only

106 permanent staff, so there are forty-one positions actually been cut.

MR. FRENCH: No, not through this unless your part-timers are involved

in that somehow, the part-time people, because we have a number of part-time

people, for example. Let us take the Arts and Culture Centres, for example. So

all our lighting people, ushers, we have a significant amount of part-time

people who do that kind of work, so they are on a call-in basis. That number

fluctuates from time to time.

I remember one place has like eighteen on a temporary list and all they are

is ushers for the Arts and Culture Centre, but that rolls freely. Obviously, the

more part-timers we have, the easier it is to get people, depending on the

demand for the shows and so on.

MR. MITCHELMORE: Do you have a number for your anticipated total staff

complement for the upcoming year, beyond the permanent staff, which would

include the part-time, the contractual employees, and seasonal employees in

total?

MR. FRENCH: I am sure we can get you that. That is, I think, 369. Judith

is laying it in front of me.

MR. MITCHELMORE: Three hundred and sixty-nine?

MR. FRENCH: Yes.

MR. MITCHELMORE: I would certainly like a copy of that.

On the line item of 1.1.01, the Minister's Office here, the budgetary line,

what was revised, was $375,400. What accounts for this increase of $110,000 in

staff last year? Were there additional people hired beyond what was budgeted?

MR. FRENCH: That was for the minister's secretary. That was straight her

severance pay.

MR. MITCHELMORE: Severance pay?

MR. FRENCH: Yes, for the minister's secretary.

MR. MITCHELMORE: Okay.

Under 1.2.03, under the Strategic Planning and Policy, I would like to ask

what in-house planning or policy research is happening for the upcoming year?

There are a significant amount of salaries put forward, and it talks about the

strategies that the department is basically going to be taking place. So can you

give us some information on that?

MR. FRENCH: Can you give us that subhead again?

MR. MITCHELMORE: That is 1.2.03, Strategic Planning and Policy,

"Appropriations provide for planning and research activities that ensure the

continued and coordinated development of culture, recreation and tourism within

the Province."

MR. FRENCH: Do you want to take that, Judith?

MS HEARN: Yes, this is, really, the strategic policy and planning for the

entire department. So there is a director of policy and planning, and then there

is an ATIPP coordinator, as well as our front desk reception, our registrar, and

one Policy Analyst. These people help run the entire department and will be

engaged in our annual planning and our three-year strategic planning exercise,

as well, of course, as all ATIPP pieces, and working with the individual

divisions on pieces of policy work.

MR. MITCHELMORE: Okay.

Would they be involved in the Uncommon Potential strategy of increasing

tourism to $1.6 billion by 2020?

MS HEARN: They do not work immediately with the Tourism Board. It is the

Marketing Division, the Tourism Research Division, and the Strategic Product

Development division that work directly with the Tourism Board.

MR. MITCHELMORE: Under what section, then, would appropriations be made

for the Tourism Board for that particular piece? Is that somewhere here in the

Estimates?

MR. FRENCH: Yes. Do you mean the amount of money we give to the Tourism

Board?

MR. MITCHELMORE: For the allocation of resources dedicated.

MR. FRENCH: Yes, it is the same as it was the previous year.

Carmela, what

section would that fall under?

MS MURPHY: It falls under Tourism Marketing and it is included in

Purchased Services, line 06. The budget for Purchased Services, the $8.253

million, includes all marketing programs and it also includes industry support.

One of those programs is the Tourism Board.

MR. MITCHELMORE: Okay. Thank you for that.

You had listed $1.204 million to Mr. Joyce around the Grants and Subsidies.

Is all of that allocation for the Colonial Building, the $9.5 million, or are

there other projects that will be provided for the capital assets in the coming

year?

MR. FRENCH: I am pretty sure that is all. It goes to The Rooms for the

Colonial Building.

MR. MITCHELMORE: Okay.

Is there an explanation why only $5 million was spent of a $9.4 million

budget?

MR. FRENCH: The only thing is it just never got out through tendering

processes and so on. Sometimes it takes longer and you go past the calendar

year. Right now, for example, on the Colonial Building they are doing the

electrical, plumbing, and that sort of thing, and it is not completed yet. I

know they have a good shove on so that could be one of the reasons, for example,

the contract has not been fully paid out, because work is still in progress.

MR. MITCHELMORE: Right. I guess, then, the Colonial Building is going to

be delayed before it will actually be the restoration process.

MR. FRENCH: No, the goal was 2015 and it is still 2015.

MR. MITCHELMORE: Okay.

MR. FRENCH: Hopefully we can have the Throne Speech in 2015 at the

Colonial Building.

MR. MITCHELMORE: Would the provincial heritage organization still have a

space in the Colonial Building?

MR. FRENCH: I think before it was the Provincial Archives it had offices

in the basement of the facility. That is still the plan. If I have this right,

Mark, isn't it our Provincial Historic Sites offices as well will be there?

I want to be frank with you; I am trying to make sure that we are not using

interpretive space for offices. That is one of the areas. I want to keep the

areas, the chambers, and the library, for example, the original library, as it

was for interpretive reasons rather than have it as offices. At first, there was

some discussion about that, but I am for leaning to keep it as much

interpretative as we possibly can because obviously it is a significant piece of

our history from my perspective.

MR. MITCHELMORE: Was federal funding pursued in this?

MR. FRENCH: Yes, under the Building Canada Fund, we got about $8 million

and change for that. As well, under Canadian Heritage, we got about $650,000, I

think, if I stand corrected. We, the Province, put in about $13.2 million or

$13.3 million. That is the break out of the $22.25 million.

MR. MITCHELMORE: Have the previous federal dollars been expended, and

that is why it is not showing up as revenue in your departmental Estimates?

MR. FRENCH: That is a good question. Judith?

MS HEARN: The revenue is receded in the Department of Transportation and

Works.

MR. MITCHELMORE: So that goes through Transportation and Works. Okay.

When it comes to your Tourism Marketing, the decrease, which is quite a

significant amount, the $4 million, under Purchased Services, is it possible to

get a breakdown of the funds that are allocated to all of the marketing

initiatives? As was stated by Ms Murphy previously, the Tourism Board gets so

much of this money. So much of this money is going towards making ads. So much

is used towards buying ad shares.

Can we have a breakdown of how this money was divided between the

organizations for 2012-2013?

MR. FRENCH: Yes, is the quick answer, but the biggest chunk of that goes

to Target Marketing. They do our media buys for us. They come up with the

creative pieces. Target Marketing pitches the government, and we go yea or nay,

our marketing department does. Then from there we are billed appropriately based

on staffing hours and so on.

They make a pitch to us and say at $12 million here is the plan and at $9

million here is the plan. Basically they do the buys and we pay them. They are

the team that, along with our marketing team, does the buys and decides which

markets we should and should not go in based on the statistics we have. So the

majority of that goes to Target Marketing for their work.

MR. MITCHELMORE: So they do the newspapers buys; they do the television

ads, the Air Canada ads, and et cetera?

MR. FRENCH: Correct.

MR. MITCHELMORE: Is there an update then as to the reduction of ad space

that you are going to be able to buy with $4 million less?

MR. FRENCH: Not yet, because we are still working the plan. Remember now,

last year's money was only in the market this January; because that is our peak

time, from the end of January to May or late April. That is our peak time. The

plan for next year has not been developed yet, but we will, over this year, have

a plan for the $8 million versus the $12 million last year. That plan has not

been developed yet.

Whether we buy time on airplanes, or how much time we have on TV, or whether

we buy ads in The Globe and Mail for example, that is yet to be

determined. Our marketing team will sit down with Target now and try to find the

best way, the best bang for our buck.

To be frank about it, we have been fighting above our weight now for the last

number of years. Even at $13 million, we have been punching above our weight

because we are getting all these nice articles and stuff written about us. We

target certain areas; we bring in travel writers and that sort of thing. We are

going to continue to do all that.

MR. MITCHELMORE: How much money was given to Target Marketing last year

to do the service that they did in 2012-2013 of this $12 million?

MR. FRENCH: I do not have the exact number. Carmela, would you have the

exact number or do you want to give it to him later? Do you have the exact

number?

MS MURPHY: We can certainly get that information. What I can say is that

we spent about $7 million last year on advertising. That includes a host of

services and projects. As the minister said, that includes creative development,

media buying and planning, as well as all campaigns and expenses related to it.

MR. MITCHELMORE: Okay.

Under the Grants and Subsidies, can you provide us with a list? What would

actually fall under this? There is $1.1 million that was spent last year. What

types of initiatives were undertaken under Grants and Subsidies, under the

Tourism Marketing, line 10.

MR. FRENCH: They are the East Coast Trail, Marble Mountain, and

Destination Labrador as well. One hundred and fifty thousand dollars went to

Destination Labrador.

MR. MITCHELMORE: Okay. You are saying that these things are not going to

fall under like the East Coast Trail, based on past discussion, that is going

to be reallocated somewhere else in terms of marketing, based on questions Mr.

Joyce had posed?

MR. FRENCH: Judith?

MS HEARN: Yes, this is where East Coast Trails is being funded going

forward. It had been funded out of Strategic Product Development; it is being

funded out of marketing, as well as the operating budget for Marble Mountain and

the capital budget for Marble Mountain.

MR. MITCHELMORE: Previously, were all of those under the Strategic

Product Development like Marble Mountain, East Coast? Or it was just the East

Coast Trail that was under Strategic Product Development and now they are being

moved to Tourism Marketing because the product is developed I guess?

MS HEARN: Right.

MR. MITCHELMORE: So then that means that somebody else is not receiving

the funds. There are some organizations or some entities that are being cut

back, whether it is Marble Mountain, whether it is the Destination Labrador.

What is actually being cut in this year's Estimates for the Grants and Subsidies

section?

MS HEARN: Yes, you will see some cut to the Marble operating budget, as

well as to the capital budget. That is the largest cut that is there; $50,000 to

the capital budget, and I believe it is $4,000 to the operating.

MR. MITCHELMORE: Okay.

Under the

section 2.1.02, the Grants and Subsidies that were provided, what

was the amount of $301,000 that was budgeted and revised, what was that actually

spent on?

Were these the funds for the East Coast Trail, and what else, I guess,

because you said there was $150,000 for the East Coast Trail, there would have

been $151,000 for another entity?

MR. FRENCH: It is $100,000 for the East Coast Trail.

MR. MITCHELMORE: Okay, so there is $201,000 for some other organizations.

MS HEARN: That includes grants for Visitor Information Centres, which are

about $136,000 a year, and a grant to the Grand Concourse.

MR. MITCHELMORE: For the Grand Concourse?

MS HEARN: Yes.

MR. MITCHELMORE: Okay.

I just want to go back to 2.1.01, Tourism Marketing, and ask the minister

what the rationale was behind cutting nearly $4 million from Tourism Marketing,

given that the industry has been promoted as having a billion dollars and there

is an initiative of going to $1.6 billion.

We get most of our revenue from residential travel. About 55 per cent of that

comes from residential travel. We really need to look at increasing the

high-yield international tourist that is spending a lot more money, increasing

that air piece. So, it boggles my mind to see that this amount of money has been

cut from a marketing budget.

MR. FRENCH: The fact that you are interprovincial tourism, that is common

right throughout North America. That is not something that is abnormal to

Newfoundland. Fifty-five per cent of in-province tourism is not a bad number at

all. Like I said, that is the rationale. That is the norm, if you will.

The reason we cut the Tourism budget is we had to find efficiencies in

government. We had a $13 million marketing budget. We had to find efficiencies.

We went to $9 million. Like I mentioned earlier, we have invested $94 million

since 2006, since the Find Yourself campaign started. We are on pace to reach

the $1.6 billion by 2020. That is our goal; that remains our goal.

It is not meant to be permanent. As monies flow, as monies improve, and as

our financial position improves in the Province, I have every reason to believe

the marketing budget will also improve. It is one of those things. Like I said,

we had sixteen chapters that we have developed, great ads as everybody

throughout the world sends me nice, glowing letters about them.

Again, we do not know where we are going with the $9 million. We are still in

the market better than places like Saskatchewan, Manitoba, and Prince Edward

Island. We have not fallen off the cliff. We have not stopped marketing, which

would be a tragedy, certainly.

At $9 million, no, it is not as much as $13 million, but we still believe we

can make in impact into the marketplace. We very much have to target our markets

at that amount of money, as most people do in Canada, for example. It would be

absolutely pointless right now for us, for example, to market in Europe. The

only way it would make sense for us to market in Europe right now is with the

Atlantic Canada Tourism Partnership, which is we market in Europe and the US

markets with our colleagues from Atlantic Canada. I think it works out to all

the provinces put in money and then the feds give us 50 per cent or 30 per cent

of that, I am not quite sure. Anyway, we partner with ACOA and we market into

these areas as a group.

If we had to go out, for example, let us take the London Times, and buy a

page in the London Times, it would be insane. We would blow $13 million and it

would be like spitting in the wind. They would not even know who you were. There

is a rationale behind targeting certain areas of the Province. It would be

great, obviously. India, for example, have 150 million people planning on

leaving there as tourists. The reality of it is most of these places and most of

that market would go to Toronto and Vancouver.

Now, it is not that we do not want to get our share one of these days, but we

are still developing very much in the Ontario market or in the Alberta market.

These are the markets that we have been concentrating on right now. When we go

abroad we market with our friends in Atlantic Canada.

CHAIR: Excuse me, Mr. Mitchelmore; do you have much left on this section?

MR. MITCHELMORE: I have a few more questions, but if Mr. Joyce has some.

CHAIR: Okay.

MR. JOYCE: No, go ahead and finish that section. No rush.

MR. MITCHELMORE: Okay, great.

MR. JOYCE: If you do not mind, Mr. Chair, I have no problem.

CHAIR: No, that is fine, as long as you are okay with the time allotment.

MR. JOYCE: (Inaudible).

CHAIR: Fair enough.

MR. MITCHELMORE: Thank you, Mr. Joyce. I appreciate that.

I want to know if there was an analysis done by the department on its tourism

marketing as to the value for dollar that it gets. For each dollar that is

expended through the Find Yourself campaign, what is the return on investment?

MR. FRENCH: I do not have that number. I do not have a number for that,

but I know there has been work done actually. At the Tourism Board they

mentioned some figures to me recently about pieces of work they have done, or

have access to, about the amount of investment you get from marketing versus the

return on investment.

Like I said, again we went from $13 million to $9 million, fair enough. Do we

change our creative piece and market with what we currently have? Do we do more

creative stuff? The whole plan is yet to be developed. What the outcomes will

be, we will find out not next year but the year after.

MR. MITCHELMORE: You talked about ACOA and you talked about some of the

funds that they are matching. Why are none of these funds showing up as

potential revenue that the department is leveraging in its Estimates statements?

MR. FRENCH: The Atlantic Canada Tourism Partnership is money that we give

out of our marketing budget. Carmela, is that correct?

MS MURPHY: Yes, it is a cost-shared program. It operates a little

different than perhaps some that you might be familiar with where revenue comes

back.

It is a $19.55 million agreement. The federal government contributes 50 per

cent over three years, and each of the provinces contributes an amount of money.

Industry contributes in kind. There is the secretariat that bills all the

partners their share. It is not actually a revenue line that shows up. Do you

know what I mean? The money does not come back into the budget as a revenue

line.

MR. MITCHELMORE: Okay. Does the directional signage fall under marketing,

or is that under the product development piece?

MR. FRENCH: I think that is under product development.

MR. MITCHELMORE: Okay. I will ask that question, is that the Strategic

Product Development?

Okay, I want to know what the status is on the directional signage. I guess

the department years ago had started this initiative to standardize signs. It

certainly seems like it is something that has not been followed.

Some people had signs cut down. Throughout the whole process it does not seem

like there is much clarity as to what is really happening with the

standardization of the signs. Can you give us an update as to what is happening?

MR. FRENCH: Sure.

The TODS program is in place in the Province and it is rolling out. We did do

two areas in the Province, full on, if you will. Deer Lake to Wiltondale I

believe was one area, and the other area was down on the Bonavista Peninsula. We

invested it; we rolled out the full TODS program. Then we gave it a year to find

out exactly what the spinout would be.

Having said that, the next year we bought the larger signs going across the

Island, which I am sure you have seen, in the Clarenville area there are two

that jump out at me every time I pass it. We are rolling it out.

Right now, for example, in the areas you can still get a permit to put up a

sign, but it is very clear on your letter that this could happen any day at all.

I think you get a year. If you purchase a sign now it has to follow the criteria

of TODS, but you can put up your own. Eventually as we roll out across the

Province we will have TODS where you will see the fork, knife, the plate, and

the name by it.

It will happen eventually. It is slow moving. We are still getting buy in

from the industry. I think if you talk to the people in Hospitality Newfoundland

and Labrador they are all go for it. In certain areas of the Province, I know

the Grand Falls area, a central area, are big on it. We will get there. We will

take some time.

It is funny how things go. I joked with a fellow there a while back. He said

he was still driving down the road in his camper van listening to his

eight-track radio. We have gone from signage now, but everything is going GPS.

One of the things that I have talked about a bit in the department now is

coming up with new GPS co-ordinates so you plug in. The signage days are almost

gone, believe it or not. Obviously, we will always have signage, but you are

trying to advance other directional modes now. That is kind of where we are, but

now again, the TODS process will happen.

MR. MITCHELMORE: Okay, great. Thanks for that update.

I am just going back to the Atlantic Canadian Tourism Partnership. You talked

about the contribution that was being provided. What is the benefit of this? Are

there future plans pertaining to the specific investment?

MR. FRENCH: We just signed on for another three years with our partners.

Their goal is to get in the European market and, I think, the Eastern US. That

is the kind of a market that we all want to try to penetrate in some way, shape,

or form.

The strategy is that we go into these marketplaces and

we buy together as one with that $19 million I think that Carmela just

mentioned. That is the plan to try to develop, to get people to come to Atlantic

Canada and then we get our chunk of that.

The best way I could describe it is if we bought a page ad, we would have a

quarter of it. The page would be Atlantic Canada and we would get our piece of

it. That has been the strategy over the last I guess this is the second

agreement or the third, Carmela, ACTP or longer?

MS MURPHY: The agreement has been in existence since 1991. This is the

eighth or ninth iteration of this partnership. It is long standing. It is over

twenty years.

MR. MITCHELMORE: The Department of Innovation, Business and Rural

Development has an Air Access Strategy. Is there anything being done in

partnership to look at creating access? That is one of the biggest inhibitors

for people from Europe, especially coming to the Province, is lack of direct

flights in places like Ireland and what not. What is the Department of Tourism,

Culture and Recreation doing to try and ease the access of getting, especially

those with culturally significant relations, to the Island and the Province to

come and visit?

MR. FRENCH: I will ask Judith to comment on that. Before I do, my

understanding of that is it is driven by the airline industry. The airlines

would apply for specific routes.

It is not something that Tourism would necessarily obviously we were

consulted on the plan first when it was developed. It is more geared to the

airline industry that wants to put on direct flights and to assist them in

enabling them to do that.

I do not know if there is anything you can add to that Judith.

MS HEARN: No, only that Tourism, Culture and Recreation does work with

IBRD, they confer with us. We certainly provide the tourism perspective on air

access, although they do have the lead for the file.

MR. MITCHELMORE: Under the Strategic Product Development, Transportation

and Communications, we are seeing a reduction of $35,000 in this year's Budget.

How are these savings going to be? Is it primarily through transportation,

reductions in staff travel to visit key areas?

MR. FRENCH: We send a significant amount of people throughout the country

to different trade shows, various buying. The $35,000, specifically where it

will come from, I do not think we have decided to cancel any places that we

currently go. We want to stay in the market. I think it is just basic savings

that we believe we can chisel off here, there, and everywhere. I do not think

there is anywhere specific that we decided to cancel going, if that is what you

mean.

MR. MITCHELMORE: Is there an allocation for the Assurance Program that

Hospitality Newfoundland and Labrador, through the department, is looking at

initiating? Are there funds allocated under Product Development for this to

create that level of standardization in the industry?

MR. FRENCH: As you know, we fund HNL as well. We give them a significant

piece of money every year. I do not know if it is a specific piece to that. No,

I do not think it is, not for the Assurance Plan itself. It is industry driven

but we have been part of the consultation. We fund those positions there

depending on the work.

MR. MITCHELMORE: Right. So they will be doing that in-house basically

through their current funds? It should not cost additional dollars to bring

forward that strategy?

MR. FRENCH: I do not know if it will cost extra funds, but it is

certainly something that we believe in. I do not think it will cost extra funds

because they are there now I think or pretty well there.

MR. MITCHELMORE: What is being done to extend the tourism seasons?

MR. FRENCH: I am glad you asked actually. Season extension is one of the

things that I am a big believer in. As you know you have Trails, Tails & Tunes

coming up now on the Northern Peninsula, and you have Roots, Rants and Roars in

Elliston. These are things that I am a big believer in because I believe we have

to get into the shoulder seasons.

Obviously, we protected that in the Budget process. That was something that

was a personal thing I believe in, and I think our Marketing Division does as

well. There is a certain amount of money that is set aside for those types of

festivals to draw people to certain areas of the Province.

I think that is where our head is and that is what we have been doing over

the last several years is try to get into the season extension. I think if you

talk to most of the people out there in the industry now, they will tell you

that their Octobers were like their old Septembers, and their Septembers were

like their old August. It is working; we are getting outside into the shoulder

seasons. It is a tough slog, but it seems to be working. Our numbers in the

Aprils, Mays, Septembers and Octobers continue to grow which is a good sign.

MR. MITCHELMORE: I just have a couple of more questions for you under

these sections. You made reference to the Destination Management Organizations.

Will they be posting publications, annual reports of their activities as to what

they did last year?

It seems that they are moving back towards the marketing piece because you

had mentioned they are looking at generating revenue through their Web site by

going to the industry and doing promotion. Is that counterproductive on some

levels to the newfoundlandandlabrador.com doing the advertising as well, almost

like a double take from the industry?

MR. FRENCH: No, I think it complements it quite well actually. We work

very closely with the various DMOs out there. We are all on the same page. We

have the Tourism Board, which all the DMOs sit on, as well as industry players,

as well as government. So it is driven from the ground up now, I believe, the

tourism industry in this Province, and it is doing very, very, very well.

No, I do not think it takes away from it. It is a way for the DMOs to

generate extra revenue for things they might want to do. They have their own

Chair, their own board, and do their own thing. We provide them with a grant of

$150,000 a year toward their salaries and then they raise money on their own

through this another way to raise general revenue. I also think they get money

from IBRD as well, a small piece from IBRD, but that is project driven, I

believe.

MR. MITCHELMORE: Since you brought up the tourism advisory board, I am

wondering what they had done last year in terms of reviewing the tourism assets,

the gaps that exist, what levels of private investment were leveraged? Will they

be releasing, I guess, a report on some of these initiatives to your department?

Who else sits on the advisory board? Is this public information?

MR. FRENCH: The Tourism Board?

MR. MITCHELMORE: Yes.

MR. FRENCH: Oh, it is very much public. They are a separate entity. They

are certainly not a government entity as such. They are a separate entity that

we fund a position, a position and one-half or something, and they meet on a

regular basis and they drive the industry. I know HNL sits on it, all DMOs sit

on it, and we have departmental people sit on it. They are a separate entity all

of their own. I think we as a government appoint the Chair.

Would you like to add anything to that, Carmela?

MS MURPHY: The minister is correct. The DMO Chairs sit there, and IBRD,

the Deputy Minister of Tourism, the Assistant Deputy Minister, as well as ACOA

officials and industry operators.

MR. MITCHELMORE: I guess there are a number of groups that receive

funding through the Department of Tourism for market development, like the

Heritage Cluster Pilot Project, the Shorefast, the Coaker Foundation, and

Outfitters Association. There are a number of them throughout the Province. Are

these groups at risk at losing their funding through the department, through

significant cutback?

MR. FRENCH: I do not recall correctly but I know when we were going

through the Budget process, it was one of the areas that we really concentrated

on. For example, the heritage groups never lost five cents. These types of

groups, the multitude of groups out there that are running small operations,

doing great work on very little money, our little piece just adds to ways that

they are able to generate their own revenue. No, we are very conscious over

touching those pieces.

I just forget now, Mark, how many we fund under the heritage

MR. JONES: About 120.

MR. FRENCH: About 120, and that will continue. There is no reduction in

funding for those groups.

CHAIR: Excuse me, Mr. Mitchelmore. In the mode of fairness, I would like

to go to Mr. Joyce there now. I can give you thirty seconds to conclude that

section because I think Mr. Joyce wants to go into subheading 3.1.01.

MR. MITCHELMORE: Sure. I had one last question just on the commemoration

board about the events that were taking place. Other than that, that would be

it.

CHAIR: If you can ask that in thirty seconds and the minister answer in

thirty seconds, and Mr. Joyce would agree.

MR. MITCHELMORE: Is there a status on what is happening there, on events

this year?

MR. FRENCH: Yes, this year we were budgeted $367,000 to continue planning

toward the big years coming up. That will increase, no doubt, over the next few

years as we try to ramp up. We had a staff person on last year and this year we

will have another staff person on.

Our goal with the commemorations and where the thinking is on it is that we

want to find a way to get more students, more of our young people, involved but

also more people at Beaumont-Hamel. I had the privilege of going there a couple

of years ago representing government as happens every year, of course, and it is

something to behold. If you ever get the opportunity to go for the July 1, the

one thing that jumps out at you is that we do have young people there, but we do

not have enough of them. Our whole goal is around that.

There is a whole education piece being developed as well for that five-year

piece so we can narrow in even though some of it is taught now in our school

system, we can narrow in on groups of kids to do that. Of course, we will have a

large contingent travelling to Beaumont-Hamel as well.

We are looking at finding ways to put another monument originally it was

one planned for Gallipoli that never, ever occurred. We are in the process now

of working through the federal Department of National Defence and the Turkish

government to find a way where we can put a monument there. What it will be who

knows? They have numerous monuments, I am told. I have never been there, so I

can hardly speak to it. Obviously, it would be significant.

It was in the planning originally to have another monument there, another

caribou there, but it never did happen. That is something else we are working on

as well with our federal colleagues. We are negotiating now with Turkey as we

speak. Well, not as we speak, but certainly the conversation is ongoing. That is

a big piece of work for us and one we are very interested in carrying out for

obvious reasons.

MR. MITCHELMORE: Thank you.

CHAIR: Thank you, Mr. Mitchelmore.

Before we move to Culture and Heritage, subsection 3.1.01, I am going to ask

for an adoption of subsections 1.1.01 to 2.1.02.

Moved by the Member for Bay of Islands; seconded by the Member for Bonavista

North.

All in favour, signify by saying aye'.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye.

CHAIR: Opposed, nay'.

Motion carried.

On motion, subheads 1.1.01 through 2.1.02 carried.

CHAIR: Okay, Mr. Joyce, we will move to subsection 3.1.01, Culture and

Heritage.

MR. JOYCE: Minister, under that subsection, 01, Salaries, it looks like

there have been no layoffs. The budget was $1,677,000, the revised was

$1,699,000, and the Estimates for this year are $1,698,000. There have been no

layoffs in that?

MR. FRENCH: No, correct.

MR. JOYCE: Why is that?

MR. FRENCH: From an arts perspective, we realize as a government it has

been one of the priorities of our government since we have started actually. We

have taken an Arts Council that was floundering at about $800,000 a year to now

it is over $2.2 million or $2.3 million a year.

The arts are a thing that we believe in as a government. You can go through

it; the Newfoundland film corp, for example, did not lose any money, the

Newfoundland and Labrador Arts Council did not lose any money, the heritage

council, and all the sectorial organizations did not lose any money.

It was one of the things that we believed in. Even when we were involved in

the Olympics, for example, we showcased our artists at the Olympics. It has kind

of been a staple of this government. Plus we realize that the arts in particular

generate quite a bit of revenue for small communities in rural Newfoundland.

You take Theatre Newfoundland and Labrador, for example, on the Northern

Peninsula, and the revenue they generate. They work well with our tourism

industry, too. I could list a number of cultural events that happen across the

Province. One of the things is it makes us all feel good at home, but certainly

it entertains our tourists, too, when they come here.

MR. JOYCE: Minister, 06, Purchased Services, the revised budget from last

year was $157,800; this year it is $254,000.

MR. FRENCH: Do you want to take that Judith? It is the reduction you are

referring to, is it?

MR. JOYCE: No, it is about the same actually.

MR. FRENCH: Okay.

MR. JOYCE: Last year the revised budget was only $157,000 when the

original was $258,000. It is back up to $254,000 this year: Purchased Services,

MR. FRENCH: We had a situation in the department where we had two

vehicles with our Provincial Historic Sites and one of them was leased, costing

us X amount of dollars I forget what it was and the other one I think the

transmission gave out in it. By purchasing two new vehicles, we could actually

save money in a year. So, that is what we did. We will save money because the

lease on the vehicle I cannot remember the exact amount, but it was high. By

purchasing the vehicle, we were much better off.

MR. JOYCE: Okay.

Under Property, Furnishings and Equipment, the budget was $5,000, the revised

went up to $37,000, but it is back down to $5,000 again, an increase of $32,000.

MR. FRENCH: Do you want to take that, Mark?

MR. JONES: That reflects the reallocation from other lines for the

purchase of those vehicles.

MR. JOYCE: Okay, thank you.

In 3.1.02, Arts and Culture Centres, the Salaries were $2,591,700, the

revised was $2,637,400 and this year the estimate is $2,377,900. Is that a

decrease in part-time staff at the Arts and Culture Centres?

MR. FRENCH: Yes, actually the Arts and Culture Centres is a real

interesting model because the busier they are, the more your salaries go up. It

is very often hard to determine what is going to happen throughout the year, so

you are generally off a little bit. We did make cuts at the Arts and Culture

Centres based on the fact that we have three in the Province that are very low

in rental nights.

In three of them, we put the managers to part-time instead of full-time.

There is a Word Processing Operator, for example, a couple more that were made

temporary not temporary, part-time. Now, you have to remember that all the

rest of the staff that operate out of the Arts and Culture Centres are part-time

anyway because the lighting guys are called in or the sound guys, the ushers;

they are all temporary staff.

The other thing we did in St. John's was we eliminated a full-time position,

as well. We had a reduction in three of the centres from full-time to half-time.

There were seven employees affected who went from full-time to part-time, in

Grand Falls, Stephenville, and in Lab City. We eliminated one position in St.

John's.

MR. JOYCE: Can we get a list of what reductions for what centres? Like I

know in Lab West

MR. FRENCH: No problem.

MR. JOYCE: I think there were reductions in Corner Brook also.

MR. FRENCH: No, no reductions Corner Brook.

MR. JOYCE: Can we get a copy of what reductions? Could you do a printout

for us of what reductions?

MR. FRENCH: Yes.

MR. JOYCE: Thank you.

In 07, Minister, the budget for Property, Furnishings and Equipment was

$40,000, the revised was $40,000, and this year it has gone up to $75,000.

MR. FRENCH: Judith.

MS HEARN: Yes, we had reduced the budget last year and we have put the

money back in this year to cover various different needs of the Arts and Culture

Centres. So it is actually restating where the budget had been in previous

years.

MR. JOYCE: Thank you.

Subhead 3.1.04, The Rooms, line 10, Grants and Subsidies: There was a

decrease last year of $1 million for the revised budget to this year.

MR. FRENCH: Yes, that is a reduction of $1.05 million reduction in The

Rooms. One of the things they tried to do to find the savings, they tried to

minimize the impact on people who were visiting the facility. Obviously that was

a big concern of ours. They have significant numbers go through there every

year.

That is why we took the positions, like I said, out front. We had seventy

full-time and eighteen temporary; we now have fifty-seven full-time and eighteen

temporary. We cut thirteen full-time positions in The Rooms. It is unfortunate.

As well, we are going to adjust the hours, and we are still working through

that. Just to give you a quick example, all these other types of facilities

across the country are usually closed for a piece of January or some other times

throughout the year for renovations, cleaning, they do extensive cleaning, they

put out new displays, or whatever the case may be. We are one of the few, I

think, that does not shut down at all.

For example, it is a possibility we may shut down the first week of January,

which is something we never did before, just to do extensive cleaning throughout

the building. I just forget the name of the other facilities across the country

that does the same. For example, that might happen. We currently are closed on

Mondays anyway. Again, we want to minimize the impact on the people who visit

the place, so that is our main goal.

MR. JOYCE: Was there any consultation before this was done, or was that

just, again, a budgetary item that was done?

MR. FRENCH: No, that was a budgetary decision. We had to find money. We

still give The Rooms a $6 million grant every year, so that is a significant

piece of change as well.

MR. JOYCE: Subhead 3.1.06, Historic Sites Development, there was an

increase last year of $22,000 for Supplies, 04.

MR. JONES: The nature of the business, Provincial Historic Sites, year to

year, whether the money needs to be in Transportation and Communications,

Supplies, or Purchased Services, it varies. The vote, however, remains the same.

MR. JOYCE: Okay.

The same thing, Minister, with Purchased Services; it was budgeted $65,000,

it went down to $33,000, but it is back to $65,000. Is that the same? It just

varies?

MR. FRENCH: The total budget is $100,000 whether it moves one

section to

the other.

MR. JOYCE: One or the other, yes.

Special Celebrations and Events, 3.1.07, you see the Salaries again. Is this

the same type, that it varies? It is $121,200 and the revised was $68,000, but

it is back up to $121,000 this year.

MR. FRENCH: Yes, that is part of the commemorations. There is a salary

budgeted there for $121,000 from a previous employee that we kept, but we only

staffed it up with one person because we are in the early stages of planning. I

think you will see this year now we will probably bring on the second person.

MR. JOYCE: Oh, that is what that $100,000 increase is for, that second

person?

MR. FRENCH: Right. Correct.

MR. JOYCE: Yes.

You see here Professional Services under the same heading, Minister, 05. Last

year there was nothing budgeted, the revised was $11,000, and this year it was

$160,000.

MR. FRENCH: Again, that reflects the $367,000 we got in this year's

Budget to start the World War I commemorations. That is where it is put, right

there.

MR. JOYCE: Is all of that funding going to be used this year or is that

to start in what way? The $161,000, Professional Services, is that to outside of

the department?

MR. FRENCH: Yes, for example, right off the bat we are negotiating with

Turkey right now, our federal counterparts are, to see where and what kind of a

monument we can build. Our goal was to put a full-sized caribou. That is what we

would ideally like to see, but because of the amount of commemoration plaques

and so on that are in Turkey we do not know. That is a negotiation that goes on

beyond us. Hopefully, if we have the staff, for example, getting a plaque done

or a bronze cast done, we will take the money from there and start that process.

MR. JOYCE: Just a question: I know Veterans Affairs is under Municipal

Affairs; why is Tourism doing this instead of Municipal Affairs?

MR. FRENCH: For whatever reason, we do kind of special events or special

celebrations, if you will. World War I commemorations are seen as one of those

types of events. It is a cultural thing. The Olympics was another thing that

went through the department that we planned when I was there before. The JUNOs,

for example, is another thing that went through our department that we helped

plan with outside groups. This would be no different.

MR. JOYCE: Okay.

Purchased Services, the next headline, $92,000, is that for the same event?

The budget last year was $75,000, it went down to $6,100, and this year it is

$92,000.

MR. FRENCH: Yes, the same event.

MR. JOYCE: Is it for the same event?

MR. FRENCH: Yes. It is for planning toward it, yes.

MR. JOYCE: Grants and Subsidies, Minister, line 10?

MR. FRENCH: Again, it is the same thing. It is for First World War

commemorations.

MR. JOYCE: Did I tell you the story of what I did over Easter?

MR. FRENCH: Pardon?

MR. JOYCE: Did I tell you the story of what I did over Easter? Do you

have a minute?

MR. FRENCH: Yes, go ahead.

CHAIR: Go ahead, Mr. Joyce.

MR. JOYCE: We had medals in our family for eighty years. We were down and

talked to our brother (inaudible), who was named after my grandmother's brother

who died in the war. He was named after him. We were going to donate them to a

museum or some Canadian Legion.

When we tracked it back we said, okay, we will donate it. Where are we going

to do that? We looked at the side and got the number. We had to go to the

British Embassy to see the number. When the number came back it was not his

medal. It was another cousin of his who was from the same town.

We tracked down the family. I brought them down to California to an

eighty-seven-year-old, an eighty-six-year-old, and an eighty-three-year-old

daughter of the father who owned the medals.

MR. FRENCH: Go away, boy. What was he in? He was in the First World War?

MR. JOYCE: The First World War, yes. This person who owned the medals

went to Nova Scotia and joined up because he was too young to join up here. He

joined up in Nova Scotia.

MR. FRENCH: He is originally from Newfoundland, though, your father was?

MR. JOYCE: Originally from Newfoundland, yes.

MR. FRENCH: Wow.

MR. JOYCE: He crossed on the boat to join up. He was too young.

MR. FRENCH: How did they end up with the medals? How did they lose track

of the medals? Somewhere he left them?

MR. JOYCE: Somewhere along the line they sent it to the wrong person,

with the same names and everything, but it was just different serials. It was a

different name, but close to the same families so they sent them.

MR. FRENCH: They were probably holed up in a drawer somewhere now, old

fashioned, through the years.

MR. JOYCE: Yes.

Minister, 4.1.01, Recreation - Operations.

MR. FRENCH: Yes.

MR. JOYCE: You mentioned here the Stephenville training centre. How much

does it cost to operate the Stephenville training centre?

MR. FRENCH: I know it is over $200,000.

Mark, do you want to speak specifically to that?

MR. JONES: The cost was split over our department and Transportation and

Works. Our costs are approximately $100,000 or so in salaries. The building

costs, maintenance, heat, light, upkeep, and et cetera, are maintained by

Transportation and Works.

MR. JOYCE: Any idea how much?

MR. JONES: Ballpark combined, approaching $300,000, so about $200,000 for

Transportation and Works, but I could be off there. That is the ballpark.

MR. JOYCE: Minister, how many other facilities in the Province does the

department I think there is one here in St. John's and one in Happy

Valley-Goose Bay?

MR. FRENCH: Obviously we fund the Provincial Training Centre here in St.

John's. That is the crown jewel, if you will, for our provincial teams, our

Canada Games teams, and so on. There are three other facilities, much like

Stephenville; I have arranged meetings now with the mayors of the municipalities

throughout the three areas. The only difference is the three of them have pools.

For example, we have Corner Brook, we have Gander, and we have Labrador,

Goose Bay. The three of them, and they are the only game in town. Obviously when

it came to the Stephenville facility, we believed there are other places where

people could have recreation when it comes to the gymnasiums. I know up my way,

for example, they use the schools for floor hockey, basketball, badminton, and

so on.

In the meantime, just going back to Stephenville for a second there, we have

had some significant interest in Stephenville as well, by the way, for people

taking over it; having said that, the other three have pools. Right now, what

government is doing in three municipalities in the Province is that we are

programming pools for local residents. For example, we pay for lifeguards,

swimming instructors, and so on. There comes a point in time whereby government

does not pay for swimming instructors for everybody and every pool in the

Province, so we have to find a way forward. I have called all three

municipalities and arranged meetings that are coming up, and we are going to

find a way to move forward.

In the case, for example, of Corner Brook, it is in the Arts and Culture

Centre. Obviously we own the building, so that makes it a little different, too.

It is the same with in Gander. That makes it a little different as well. In

Happy Valley-Goose Bay, it is only the pool in the area. Obviously there is more

sensitivity in closing down a pool when it is the only game in town.

MR. JOYCE: There is another pool in Corner Brook, there at the college.

MR. FRENCH: Yes, but this one is in the Arts and Culture Centre, so we do

not want to chop it off. The building is open. We are operating the building.

MR. JOYCE: Yes, but the logic is that you are operating a building in

Stephenville also without a pool, Arts and Culture. If that is the logic the

department is using, then there is a pool at the Grenfell College. So the logic

that we are only subsidizing the facilities that have pools does not because

that is the only game in town.

MR. FRENCH: The other piece of that is, the Arts and Culture Centre is

there. We opened the building. The pool is in the basement of the building. The

building is there. That is the case in two of the three. In that one in

particular, the pool is actually in the Arts and Culture Centre, so the building

is open. We do not want to close off the building.

MR. JOYCE: Just a question, you mentioned that you operate the training

centre here in St. John's. The problem with that, from someone who played sports

and coached kids who came in here, is that if you close down the centre in

Stephenville a lot of great athletes came from Stephenville who would never be

able to get to the Provincial Training Centre unless they have a place to train

back home, or even to start. This training centre is so vital, not just for

Stephenville but for the whole Port au Port region.

MR. FRENCH: I am sure there are examples of people who use this facility

currently to train, but there are very few. The PSOs have all their facilities

when they have their camps and so on, there are very few having camps in that

area any more, in Stephenville. What the rationale is for that, I cannot speak

for the PSOs. All I am thinking is just because of the population base, it

probably costs less to bring the kids to this area of the Province, simply

because most of them are here; just the raw population.

There is a private gym now, for example, in Stephenville that you could be

competing with. If you lived in any other region of the Province and you are a

part of a Canada Games team, the coaching team we are doing very well at this,

actually, coming up with training programs for young people. There are always

adjustments made.

If you are in St. Anthony, for example, and you are on a provincial team, you

would have to find a way. Usually they do it through the gym, and they provide

them with a coach and so on. We believe those facilities exist in Stephenville

outside of that; now, having said that, we have some great interest from people

who want to keep that facility as a recreation facility. We are going to have an

RFP out. Hopefully, within the next twenty-four to forty-eight hours you will

see an RFP in the paper. That is what it will be geared toward, keeping it as a

recreation facility.

MR. JOYCE: Just from a point of view of someone who knows the area, this

logic that there are other gyms in the area, that does not hold water out in

Stephenville.

I use judo, for example, there is no other facility out there that can hold

the 600 mats that they have. There is no recreation, no weight gym that can hold

600 mats, let alone be able to have judo, tae kwon do, basketball, and all the

other activities that are there. So whoever is advising you that there are other

gyms that can supply this here, it is

MR. FRENCH: No, the goal is to keep it as it is. It is just government

should not be paying for staffing as we do not pay for it in Corner Brook or in

Bay of Islands, for example. We do not pay to staff up a provincial facility.

The idea of it is

MR. JOYCE: You do, two Arts and Culture Centres and the swimming pool.

MR. FRENCH: Yes, but if you go to Conception Bay South, there is nobody

paid. If you go to Bay Roberts, you go to Carbonear, or you go right throughout

the Province, all of these municipalities and local services districts would

love, obviously, for us to be staffing up the recreation facilities.

Hopefully, in the case of Stephenville, what you are going to see is an

outside entity take it over, whether that is the municipality, like all other

municipalities run their recreation facilities; or you will see, I do not know,

some private group.

MR. JOYCE: When I asked a question last week, and Minister Dalley

answered it, he said negotiations have been on the go for several years with

groups.

MR. FRENCH: The first meeting I had out there on that was in June, 2010.

That was the first meeting I had out there. It was a coming together of a number

of people throughout the whole region who came to a meeting. Three meetings

later, there was nobody there; there were a couple of people who showed up. So,

this started a long while ago.

There have been conversations held by previous ministers with stakeholders in

the region and there was no take. As you know, going back to 2000 or 20001, it

almost happened then. I think there was a move afoot to close the facility back

at that time. Not close the facility, but turn it over to a private group.

MR. JOYCE: No, back then, if anything, it was an expression of interest.

Does anybody want it? No one wanted it, so they just continued on. It was not

saying we are closing it down. It was: Is there some other way, but if there is

not, (inaudible).

Minister, the other thing the group asked for, and I will give you an

example, is a year's extension. I know some groups when I was contacted were

told on Tuesday, and I use judo for example, to have your 600 mats out by 12:00

o'clock on Thursday. There was a provincial tae kwon do that was cancelled.

Whatever happened here, there was absolutely no consultation with the groups or

with the town council. Even the mayor said he did not realize this was

happening.

If there is any way that you can give them an extension for a year, maybe.

Three months is not a long time. I know they have a group set up out there now.

Dave Murphy is the Chair of the group, trying to see what they can do and if

their user fees can pay for it.

Is there any way the department can find the funds to try to give them an

extension for a year? At least there is some reprieve and the pressure is off

the local individuals.

MR. FRENCH: Shortly after the announcement was made that we were closing

the facility, obviously, we started to find out more information from the local

people out there on the ground and so on. That is why we went to the ninety

days.

Actually, it was the Mayor of Stephenville who I had several conversations

with and he impressed upon me and I did not realize there was a provincial

tournament there, for example, when it came to the judo. We took all of that

into consideration.

The main thing that was on our minds was to get to the end of the school

year. We thought that in the summertime, for example, after the school year is

over, in July and August it is very low, the numbers who use the facility. It is

like that everywhere. Just in the summer, people are outside playing different

sports. You will not see as much basketball and badminton, for example, in July

and August as you will at other times of the year. We knew all of that.

We knew the people who use the facility were down in July and August anyway.

So we said the sixty days should get us to the end of the school year, and we

are still hoping to turn that around. My goal is to turn that around by the end

of June so that there is a natural flow. However, having said that, July and

August are the slowest months. Should we need a break of a week or two, I think

we could handle it with very little, but like I said, I have had

MR. JOYCE: The idea for a year extension is off the table?

MR. FRENCH: No, it is not on.

MR. JOYCE: It is not on?

MR. FRENCH: No.

MR. JOYCE: The mayor has stated publicly that his town will not take it

over. It has to be a regional facility.

What has happened now, it is falling into the hands of some local individuals

who started their own group to try to find a way through it. It is almost like

these individuals are just private citizens and they are trying to find some

way. The pressure is on them now with less than two-and-a-half months left to

try to find a way to come up with $200,000, $250,000 through the year. Even a

little reprieve for the year, which is not a lot of money when you look at the

overall budget for the Province, for that whole region... That will not be

considered?

MR. FRENCH: I think if somebody is serious about taking it over, I think

they can come up with a plan in ninety days. I know if I was serious and put

together a committee I think I could manage to come up with something in ninety

days.

I have had several groups, not only private individuals but local; I had one

or two other local groups who are not-for-profit groups we will say, also

inquire about the facility. My goal and my hope is I guess when we get the RFP

out there and we get all of the submissions in, then we will have a look at them

and whoever can provide the best recreation, obviously, that will be one of the

main criteria in where we move forward.

MR. JOYCE: That is off the table. I can tell them that is off the table?

MR. FRENCH: Yes, ninety days.

MR. JOYCE: Ninety days.

MR. FRENCH: We are extending it to ninety days.

MR. JOYCE: Can I ask how much and I am not sure if you have it here

with you now, but I can get it in the next couple of days the cost for the

department for the training centre in Stephenville, as compared to the

provincial centre here, as compared to the one in Happy Valley-Goose Bay? You

might not have all the numbers here, but what it costs for Stephenville and the

provincial training centre.

To me, personally for that whole region which has been for forty years to

have a provincial training centre, when a lot of the athletes in that region now

are losing their main centre where they can train to be able to advance to that

provincial training centre. It is almost like cutting off that part of the area

for a lot of athletes I have to say, especially now where government is out

promoting recreation.

I can assure you there is no other facility out in Stephenville that can do

what they are doing. In Corner Brook you can because there are a lot more gyms,

but in Stephenville that and for the whole Bay St. George, not just

Stephenville. If I can get that, Minister.

MR. FRENCH: Yes, we should be able to get you that.

MR. JOYCE: Yes, okay. This just may not be able to happen, but in the

budget for this year are there any other cuts to any other facilities? Or is it

just this one out in Stephenville?

MR. FRENCH: Not right now. Everything is going right now; however, having

said that, we are in the process of moving forward with getting out of the

business of providing programming for the other facilities, as I mentioned.

The pools that we operate in other areas of the Province are no different

than Stephenville, to some degree. We will be moving away from staffing and

programming those facilities as well.

MR. JOYCE: Okay.

Something else and there is no need to go through it here now; the

department can send it to me in the next little while what special events and

celebrations are planned for this upcoming year? I would like just a list of

special celebrations that are happening in the Province.

MR. FRENCH: Yes, I can give you that.

MR. JOYCE: Also, Minister, I know I am not usually too outspoken on this,

but if you can supply and I can get them but it would be easier now through

Estimates a list of applications for special grants and assistance and any new

or any changes to them?

MR. FRENCH: No sweat.

MR. JOYCE: We can go through them now, but it would save a lot of time if

you could send me them.

MR. FRENCH: Yes, no sweat.

MR. JOYCE: Yes, just to send them so I can have them. Besides the $4

million, is there any other marketing strategy going to be cancelled this year

about tourism because of budgetary cuts?

MR. FRENCH: No, the strategy is developed every year and things come and

go, when it comes to the strategy. So, the strategy was based on $13 million

last year. This year it will be based on $9 million. So right now is the time

that they start working on the strategy for next year; again, as I mentioned

earlier, whether that be radio, television, newspaper, whatever the case may be.

So now they are in the process of developing a plan for the next marketing year.

MR. JOYCE: Okay.

Minister, I am going to bring up something that we discussed before I get to

it, and it is about the T'Railway. We discussed about that break in the road

just below Georgetown Road there. Is there any way that you can get somebody

and I know the two or three I spoke to out in Corner Brook agreed to meet with

myself and the two or three residents, and I mentioned to you that with the

flood that was in the area, no one wanted that replaced absolutely no one.

We had Transportation and Works down who looked at it and twenty feet up, you

can put a bridge across. There is not a lot of traffic area that comes through

that area, because down below Georgetown Road, that you visited yourself, there

is s big parking area, and it is not as busy as the main street down.

Is there any way that someone can meet with these residents? I will meet with

them also. This is not a confrontational meeting. I know the letter I got from

you stating the cost, but no one ever did the cost. The only cost in the

response and I understand where you are coming from is to replace this

whole, but there was never any intent to do that.

MR. FRENCH: Obviously, as you know, that is part of the provincial park

system. So, I would suggest you meet with Minister Hedderson and have a chat

with him about it.

I think the T'Railway is something that we have to continue to develop more

and more, because again, when you talk about tourism and I do not know how

many I have run into, and it seems to be growing, that now they would like to

come to Port aux Basques and go Argentia, and vice versa, on the ATVs along the

rail beds.

As for certain pieces like that, I would suggest that you meet with Minister

Hedderson on it. For me at the time, if I recall correctly, when I was briefed

on it, it was straight cost. That was the cost of repairing that

section

(inaudible).

MR. JOYCE: That full section, yes.

Is that still on the tourism radar, the T'Railway?

MR. FRENCH: No, it is part of the provincial parks. All of our parks are

part of our bag. I mean, if I get a complaint on the park, obviously I will make

sure I mention it to Minister Hedderson or his department. That is usually where

it goes for me when it comes to but the parks fall under the Environment and

Conservation.

MR. JOYCE: Oh, I know, but where you are the previous minister; is it

still a priority for the tourism?

MR. FRENCH: Well, I have to tell you, I have a real soft spot for the

provincial T'Railway. I love that part of the Province. It is not many people

who can boast of a provincial park that goes from east to west and I just see it

as a

CHAIR: Excuse me, Mr. Joyce, I will give you a couple of more minutes,

then I will be back on track with even time. Then I can go to Mr. Mitchelmore

and then come back to you.

MR. JOYCE: Sure, go ahead.

CHAIR: If you only need a few minutes to conclude a section, that is

fine.

MR. JOYCE: No, I have lots of questions.

CHAIR: Okay, then you can come back.

I will go to Mr. Mitchelmore.

MR. MITCHELMORE: Looking at the Culture and Heritage

section of the

Estimates, I see that there has been a cut in funding overall. Even though some

of the organizations did not receive cuts, they certainly did not get any

increases either. It appears that The Rooms certainly took the brunt of those

cuts.

I wanted to ask, under

section 3.1.01, Culture and Heritage, about the

Purchased Services. I know that Mr. Joyce had asked a question specifically

around that. I am not sure if I got the clarification that I needed around the

$157,800, what that was actually spent on, and why was there $100,500 that was

left unspent.

MR. FRENCH: Mark, do you want to have a run at it?

MR. JONES: It is a combination of things there. It was the reallocation

of some of the monies to other areas in the operations. Some monies were taken

from Purchased Services and T&C Professional Services, et cetera, for purchases.

The vehicles that were mentioned previously is one avenue. Some monies went

unspent, some efficiencies were found, and fiscal year operations, year to year,

not all monies get spent every year.

MR. MITCHELMORE: Right.

What is the amount of funding for the Arts and Letters Competition?

MR. FRENCH: I am thinking $125,000, but I can get that number for you

exactly. I do not know why $125,000 rings a bell, but that seems to ring a bell

with me.

MR. MITCHELMORE: Would that be allocated under the Grants and Subsidies

section under this?

MR. FRENCH: Mark, do you want to respond to that, please?

MR. JONES: The Arts and Letters program actually is run directly out of

the department. There are staff assigned to that role. All expenditures for that

program actually come from various operational areas of the budget, so you would

not see that represented in the Grants. The $125,000-ish or $100,000, whatever

the minister said there, some of that is Salaries and some of that would be in

Transportation and Communications

MR. MITCHELMORE: Okay.

What about the Art Procurement Program? What is the status of that?

MR. JONES: Status quo.

MR. MITCHELMORE: They are not being cut any type of funding; it is

staying in terms of operation?

MR. JONES: Correct.

MR. MITCHELMORE: What funds to historic sites are allocated under this

subheading? What are the specific amounts to the historic sites? Could you

provide a list of how the funds are being allocated?

MR. FRENCH: Yes, there is no reduction in funding for Provincial Historic

Sites. That varies from year to year. We could be doing work on one this year,

for example, we are doing work on the Bonavista Lighthouse.

MR. MITCHELMORE: Okay.

MR. FRENCH: We are painting the Bonavista Lighthouse. We are hoping to

start the work of exploring how we are going to fix the fence around Mockbeggar.

Next year that could be a Provincial Historic Site somewhere else. That moves

around depending on maintenance and so on that is required at each facility.

Where I am going with it is the funding pot has not changed, but where it is

spent will change to

MR. MITCHELMORE: Where it is spent, yes.

I am very pleased to hear that there is going to be some work done at the

Bonavista Lighthouse. I know that was an issue last year around the actual

physical structure. Having our sites up to a standard is highly important.

The Province increased the fees to Provincial Historic Sites.

MR. FRENCH: Yes.

MR. MITCHELMORE: Do you anticipate that is going to have an impact on

visitation and the additional revenue or not that would be generated? It seems

like despite the increase what was budgeted last year, the $65,000 line item,

really only generated $45,000. You are either anticipating an increase in

visitors or the 10 per cent increase in fees may help get you back up to

$65,000. Is that the anticipation?

MR. FRENCH: No, I do not expect a reduction in the number of people who

go there. The reason for the increase there are a number of reasons. Obviously

it is a revenue generator; it goes into the general revenues I believe. Does it,

Mark?

We do not see it as such. Any time that government takes in money it goes

into general revenues. It does not go back into the pot, if you will, for

Provincial Historic Sites; it goes into the bigger picture.

The reality of it is when we came to look at the fees that we are charging to

our Provincial Historic Sites, we are significantly lower than some of the other

privately-run sites around. Here we were and it seemed like we were

undercutting. I just forget the number, but everywhere I think we were $2, $3,

$4, and $5 under sites that were all around it, the whole tourism cluster.

It was important that we be kind of seen as on a level playing field. That

was one of the reasons why we put it up, because it would generate very small

amounts of revenue. The increase will be very minor. I do not know exactly the

amount of money, Chris, but the increase would be very, very small that flowed

into general revenues. We wanted to stay on par with the rest of the

organizations throughout the Province.

MR. MITCHELMORE: Is that something that the organizations were lobbying

for, an increase in fees? I have travelled to many countries and things that are

state or owned by the country itself are generally of a lower fee or a reduced

or free entry type thing, because it is so important to be promoting the culture

and heritage of a region. Increasing fees can be restrictive, and we do not get

to tell our stories the same way to the people who are coming.

MR. FRENCH: We have increased that very, very small. It has gone up from

$6 to $7, or $6 to $8, over the next three years, those kinds of increases. They

are very, very minor in nature.

MR. MITCHELMORE: You said that the revenue that is collected goes through

general revenues. Can you explain the line item 02, Revenue Provincial, why it

was budgeted at $65,000 and only received $45,000 in their 2012-2013 budget?

MR. FRENCH: Mark, do you want to take that?

MR. JONES: Quite simply, not as much revenue was collected through ticket

sales for admissions to the sites. That does not necessarily translate into

decreased visitation, however, as many clients receive complimentary admission,

Sundays, et cetera, groups; so not all of it is directly controlled by ticket

sales at the site.

MR. MITCHELMORE: Okay.

CHAIR: The minister just had to step out for a second. Unless there is

something you can direct to one of his staff, I would prefer if you wait until

the minister returns, if that is fine.

MR. MITCHELMORE: That is fine with me.

CHAIR: We can take a quick five-minute recess if somebody wants to

stretch their legs and go to the washroom. We can come back at 10:50 a.m., in

six minutes.

MR. MITCHELMORE: That is great, thanks.

Recess

CHAIR: Mr. Mitchelmore, you have five minutes remaining on your allotted

time. Continue with the questions to the minister and his staff, please.

MR. MITCHELMORE: Okay, great.

Under Culture and Heritage, 3.1.01,

section 10, Grants and Subsidies, that

has been cut by $362,500. Is there a list, or can we have a list of who was

provided grants and subsidies from last year?

MR. FRENCH: Yes. I can pretty well tell you what the difference is there,

too, by the way.

MR. MITCHELMORE: Okay, sure.

MR. FRENCH: We are doing a pilot project of $75,000 on the Northern

Peninsula, which you probably have heard of up your way. It was coming together

as a cluster to try to that is correct is it, Mark?

MR. MITCHELMORE: The Heritage Cluster Project.

MR. FRENCH: It was ongoing for three years. The hope is now they are

going to continue on and follow through on that.

The other program was CEDP. There were two programs under the CEDP. One was

the Fisheries Heritage Program, which has gone from about 100 per cent take-up

down to about 30 per cent take-up on it. We have done like 150 sheds, stores,

and wharves over the last number of years and there is no buy in. It has been

like that for the last several years; it is less and less and less and less and

less.

There are still programs available whereby people can still apply to have

heritage structures designated and funded and so on. This one has outlived its

usefulness, basically.

The other one was a program that sent artists abroad, is about the best way I

can describe it. It was picked up by us in 2009 when the feds cut the program.

That program did some great work, but if we never had five cents cut out of the

budget this year, that is one program that I would have wanted to see realigned

or changed or something done with it. It was with that in mind, that program

ended too. It was a federal program that we picked up and I was not a big fan of

it.

MR. MITCHELMORE: Okay.

So those two programs are specifically dropped completely?

MR. FRENCH: Yes.

MR. MITCHELMORE: The CEDP has changes. Is that correct? There is still

some money available for local artists to tour and gain market access for its

projects.

MR. FRENCH: Correct.

MR. MITCHELMORE: The money that was in the budget previously for doing

that is still there?

MR. FRENCH: No, those two specific programs that I mentioned are no

longer there.

MR. MITCHELMORE: Right, but to tour within the Province like, for

example, Theatre Newfoundland and Labrador or theatre companies

MR. FRENCH: Yes. There is money as well under the Newfoundland and

Labrador Arts Council that you can avail of for that type of activity.

MR. MITCHELMORE: So how much money is available under the CEDP, or is

there is no money available under CEDP for this type of travel? I am just trying

to get some clarification here.

MR. FRENCH: The CEDP covers a wide range of that is a big, significant

pot of money that goes a long ways. Mark, I do not know if you want to respond

to that and provide some specifics.

MR. MITCHELMORE: Can we maybe have itemized funds as to where it was

previously and where it is now?

MR. FRENCH: Sure, we can get you that. That is no problem.

MR. MITCHELMORE: The school arts program is being cut by the Department

of Education, and that included visiting artists programs and ArtsSmarts touring

programs in the schools. These are going to have a big impact on the culture and

heritage sector and how we reach out to future artists, audiences, and

opportunities.

Did the Department of Tourism, Culture and Recreation have any input on the

decision that was made by the Department of Education on this cut that is going

to impact the artists and the audiences and, really, growing the industry, our

own local talents?

MR. FRENCH: We work with the Department of Education all the time and I

guess the three of us are partners with the Newfoundland and Labrador Arts

Council when it comes to designing programs, but through the whole budget

process and efficiencies, we all had to do our own thing and come up with ways.

So that was a decision that Education made.

The program is still not wiped out. My understanding, I think it was cut in

half. Is that correct, Mark? I think the program was cut in half, so I think

they are still going to maintain some form of that program. We are still doing a

significant piece of work with schools and with young people through our various

programs.

MR. MITCHELMORE: I think cuts to these programs are going to have

far-reaching impacts to our future generations when it comes to preserving and

fostering that type of culture and heritage, those values. There should be some

consideration for looking at where your department is with expending its money

when it comes to culture and heritage. It has received cuts, that sector

especially, and given to consideration that your department's overall budget has

increased for this year.

MR. FRENCH: Just to comment on that. If you will notice from the arts

piece, in particular, you will notice that a lot of the arts have not been

touched at all; and, in particular, the creation of art has not been touched

either. That was something that was important to us.

MR. MITCHELMORE: There was a working group formed last year to correlate

the cultural statistics. Is there a progress report available on that?

MR. FRENCH: Mark, do you want to respond to that?

MR. JONES: That work is ongoing, working group, steering committee, of

which we have our sector partners, the Arts Council, the Film Corp, on board

there. We have some internal resources dedicated to that. A report, no, but the

work is continuing. If you wanted to have an offline chat with the people

responsible, I am sure we could have that.

MR. MITCHELMORE: When it comes to the Arts and Culture Centres, Mr. Joyce

asked a number of questions around it, and you had committed to providing a list

of where the positions are going to be lost; and, providing that, I would

certainly like a copy of it.

MR. FRENCH: There are seven positions in total and they went from

full-time to temporary, and there was one position at the Arts and Culture

Centre in St. John's that was eliminated.

MR. MITCHELMORE: When it comes to looking at the Arts and Culture

Centres, what is the department doing to make it more accessible to non-profit,

community groups, making the rental fees more affordable so that they can be

utilized more, generating additional revenues, so that these types of cutbacks

do not have to happen?

MR. FRENCH: We have been encouraging people to use the facility. For

whatever reason, Corner Brook is doing very well; St. John's is doing extremely

well. We have some other places in the Province where there is no take-up. It is

unusual because these are areas where the economy is good, there are lots of

things happening, but for some reason the communities are not coming out and

patronizing it. Now, that is why we give money to all the theatres and theatre

festivals, and we do what we can to encourage, and we will continue to do what

we can to encourage people to use the facilities, but you cannot physically go

and drag them by the scruff of the neck onto the stage.

Whatever it takes that is why we have a CEDP for creation of art over $2

million. That is why we fund the Newfoundland and Labrador Arts Council, the

film corporation, and the list goes on and on. Visual artists, for example, some

of the artists use it to show their work. We have continued funding for those

areas in the creation of art with the hope that obviously they go into the

buildings and use them as much as they possibly can.

CHAIR: Mr. Mitchelmore, I am going to give you one more question and then

I am going to go to Mr. Joyce. Then we will go back and forth again. I am going

to stick to my fifteen minute time frame back and forth.

Mr. Mitchelmore.

MR. MITCHELMORE: Okay. Is there any initiative being put forward to

beyond looking at the centres itself, because there are so many areas that are

under serviced when it comes to access to performances and theatre that would

surround these geographical areas. Just looking at the Northern Peninsula or

looking at various areas of Labrador that these mangers would be looking at

maybe organizing. If they had a tour happening at their own centre, if they

could be looking at co-ordinating other sites and travel to try and bring up

revenues, because we have had tours happen.

The Theatre Newfoundland and Labrador group have been highly successful going

into schools and regions and picking up revenue. Maybe some of that revenue then

could go back into the Arts and Culture Centres and really bring out these

assets that we have.

I think something further needs to be done when it comes to the tools that we

have at hand. We cannot just look at the Arts and Culture Centres as a bricks

and mortar building. There has to be further outreach being done and these staff

being fully utilized to reach out into the communities as well. Is there any

type of movement done on that?

MR. FRENCH: Mark, do you want to respond?

MR. JONES: Quite a lot, actually. In particular, in the past two years we

have changed the way we think about our Arts and Culture Centres. Not just about

the six bricks and mortar buildings that the Province owns.

We have done two very significant pieces of work. One is our partner circuit,

Bonavista and NaGeira, at the NaGeira Theatre in Carbonear. In Bonavista you

have the Garrick. In Clarenville they have a new theatre.

Just last year actually, Theatre Newfoundland and Labrador based out of

Corner Brook, works out of Cow Head, we supported them through the Arts and

Culture Centre to tour Tempting Providence to sixty different locations

around the Province. Where appropriate, we go into schools. It is a nice segue

into the second piece that we are doing, which is we have a school tour program

where our staff work to produce pieces of work.

We are also interested in working with other producers who may want to

produce work tied to the curriculum outcomes so that we can get more productions

with developing that audience, young people in schools. In the past two years

there have been some significant changes there, and the uptake has been

fantastic. The number of productions is up, and the number of sites that we are

touching with those productions is up.

CHAIR: Mr. Mitchelmore, I am going to move to Mr. Joyce.

Thank you.

MR. JOYCE: I have some general questions to the minister or the staff on

a few things here.

Before I go any further, Minister, I would just like to thank the staff from

the department for the work that is done around the Province, in case we do not

have time at the end. I know it is a challenging job and there are always

evolving issues, so to the staff around, a good job with the tourism ads.

Minister, your Executive Assistant there, Barry, I have to say thanks for all

your help in the previous department. I know when you call upon him he is always

there. He is always there to help and always cordial. I just want to put that on

the record. It was great to be dealing with him.

MR. FRENCH: Government and Opposition do work together on occasion, don't

they?

MR. JOYCE: They do, and I am a firm believer that you have to work

together. When people work with you on issues, you have to recognize that also

and not be selfish and just complain, but there are times when there are a lot

of things going on. I know on one or two big projects, Barry has helped our

office a lot and kept us informed. I just want to recognize that also.

MR. FRENCH: Yes, that is good, and that will continue.

MR. JOYCE: I am sure, yes. I just wanted to recognize that and have it on

the record, Minister.

Will there be any investment restoration for the Matthew this year

down in Bonavista? Is there any money allocated for that?

MR. FRENCH: No, there will not. We do, however, provide them with a grant

every year through the CEDP. It is now up to, if I recall correctly, a little

over $30,000 a year for operational. Is it $30,000 Mark, does that sound about

right? It is about $30,000 a year we provide for operational.

The last time that I met with them I just recently met with Glen Little

about it who has been advocating. The reality of it is that they are looking for

about $1 million to redo that vessel. There are a number of things that the

committee has to decide. Do they enclose the vessel and keep it in?

The last time I visited down there, last year or the year before, they had

the vessel inside then. They kept it in. You could tour the vessel but it was

inside the building. It was not in the water. I guess that is a decision, but it

is an awful lot of money that they need right now.

I know at one point we got money to do some ropes, for example. I think the

rigging one time, but that was specific to a small job. We worked with them

through that. I think IBRD actually got them the money that time through us.

Through IBRD we work together.

Right now, they are looking at over $1 million. That is a significant sum.

Obviously, you would want a long-term plan when you are coming forward looking

for that kind of money. It is a great facility. I love the facility itself, but

at that price and that cost they have to come up with a plan. Government is not

in a position to give them a million dollars every year for maintenance on a

boat that is in the water.

MR. JOYCE: How did Marble Mountain do this year? Is it just the

preliminary I know it is a bit too early.

MR. FRENCH: It is a bit early. I think they were on par with last year,

if I recall correctly, but it seemed like they had a lot of snow this year. It

seemed like it was pretty good there for a while. I do not know the exact

number. I can provide you with that as time goes on.

MR. JOYCE: When you get that, can you supply us with a copy of that?

MR. FRENCH: Yes, that is not a problem.

MR. JOYCE: Minister, the other thing, which is an issue that was brought

up in Public Accounts, is the chalet. Are there any thoughts in the department

to get rid of the chalet? As we discussed in Public Accounts, is the debt ratio

to the Marble Mountain Corporation, is the chalet at the bottom of the hill. Are

there any plans for that, or ?

MR. FRENCH: No, I cannot say there are thoughts about getting rid of it.

I know the board themselves have talked about trying to come up with plans to

redevelop the area to try to make it more cost effective.

My understanding, and something that I have learned about ski hills I am

still no expert when it comes to ski hills, but apparently ski hills that

survive and do well, it is more about the infrastructure around them than the

actual sales for the ski passes. I think that is where the head of the board was

the last time I met with them, was trying to come up with a plan to I think

they have, actually, come up with a plan now of ways of developing the base of

the hill. There is no plan, as such, to get rid of the chalet at this point.

MR. JOYCE: When we discussed it, and the Chair can if I am right, there

is about 20 per cent occupancy there at the chalet. It is low for standards, and

the keep. Capital cost and the maintenance is extremely high. I do not if there

is something that, or if we can find some other way to use it, because there are

a lot of private industries, I would say, that would be interested in it, or

there is already a lot of private at the hill that can supply a lot of the

skiers.

MR. FRENCH: Well, I am sure I can't speak for all of government, but I

can tell you I would certainly entertain anything, and I am sure the board

would, ways to generate extra revenue to maintain the hill as we currently do.

It certainly would not be a closed shop. If somebody knew somebody who wanted to

have a discussion about anything I would be certainly more than willing to open

the door.

MR. JOYCE: Will there be any other ski hills receiving funding this year

out in Clarenville?

MR. FRENCH: Not that I am aware of. I know there is a cross-country group

that skis there at the base, I think, at Clarenville. I think they may have

gotten a small recreation grant, like Lark Harbour, something of that nature to

help do up the trail or something, but that would be the extent of it.

MR. JOYCE: Okay.

The Republic of Doyle this year, I do not know if you have all the

figures, the total cost for the investment for the Republic of Doyle . Do

you have that now or can you

MR. FRENCH: Yes, I can give you that. It is $3 million, $1.5 million over

two fiscal years. Actually, now what we have done with the new season coming up,

because they have gone from twelve episodes to sixteen, it has gone from $1.5

million to $1.25 million, but it is over a three-year period now. That is the

little difference this year. Where they have increased their number of episodes,

we have increased our investments, but over a longer period of time and for a

number of different reasons.

Just to point out, for the money that we invest, it is a significant amount

of money spent in this Province that would not be spent here. For our investment

of $3 million, it is over $20 million that we get from outside sources that

funds that show. It is employing about 175 year-round staff, employees. There

are times it is up to 200 and 300 people on set. It is good paying jobs. We have

really developed an industry. The film industry was absolutely dead here in the

Province. I should not say dead, that is not fair for me to say, but it

certainly was not at the level it is at today.

Last year, for example, because of the Republic of Doyle and because

of investments in the industry, last year the highest budgeted which most

people would not know. The highest budgeted film made last year in Canada was

made in rural Newfoundland and Labrador, in Old Bonaventure or New Bonaventure.

MR. JOYCE: New Bonaventure.

MR. FRENCH: Or both. These are the things that are happening because of

the investments in Republic of Doyle . Now you are seeing this spin out

into other regions of the Province. So, it is good stuff.

MR. JOYCE: Minister, you mentioned and I will use an example of the

theatre Bay of Islands Enhancement Committee for walking trails out in Lark

Harbour, York Harbour. They put in applications for minor grants. They are

looking for minor recreation grants, which sometimes goes to municipalities,

which I think is great. Are there any other applications that they can apply for

through the department?

I will just give you an example. They probably have about thirty, forty

kilometres of hiking trail now up through the mountains, up over Blow Me Down

Mountains, overlooking Lark Harbour. People come from all over Newfoundland to

go to the trails. They are almost stuck now for funding.

I do not know if there is any major capital funding for it because the trails

are and I walk them all. Some are moderate, some are easy, and some you have

to use ropes to get up. I do not know, through the department, if there is any

other or if the department can send me some applications that I can forward to

them.

MR. FRENCH: Yes, we will certainly send you the application for the small

and large capital grants for our capital recreation grants. The maximum is

$15,000 in those. They would probably be looking for something more significant

than that, I am thinking.

MR. JOYCE: Yes.

MR. FRENCH: I know that there is probably and I do not know, but I

think IBRD may have money available for that sort of thing. You know the way it

goes, ACOA and IBRD, and all hands are in at the one time. I think that would be

the only place. We do not have major capital like that. Ours are much smaller.

MR. JOYCE: Yes. They put one in for the capital grant $15,000, but then

that usually goes in to municipalities.

MR. FRENCH: Not necessarily. They could very well qualify for the

$15,000. That is no problem at all.

The way we do it, we give every district $15,000 in a large capital grant.

That is the way it has been for years, and that remains. If they were to apply

and they were have a look at it. If you wanted to speak to me about it, I

would certainly have a look at it for them, no problem at all.

MR. JOYCE: Yes, but I believe they are looking at more of a major one,

probably in Industry, Trade and Rural Development.

MR. FRENCH: Yes, that is what I figure, for that amount of trail. The

small ones that we have, you might construct a bridge or some road gravel. Small

stuff compared to what I am thinking. We have the same issue in CBS with our

rail bed. Our recreation grants are no good. They are looking for big money.

MR. JOYCE: We mentioned about the new signage, the TODS program. I am not

sure if it is tourism. Why are some singled out and some not? I know I am

probably putting you on the spot because I am not sure if it is your department.

Usually it is Transportation and Works.

You can go to one area and people are told to take down their signs. You can

drive twenty, thirty kilometres and the exact same signs are up again. Is there

any systematic approach to say here is what we are doing as we move across?

MR. FRENCH: No. I mean the TODS program is in place right now. There are

an awful lot of people I should not say this, but I am sure there are people

putting up illegal signs. That is the way it is. When TW goes around they take

them down, that is the nature of the business.

You can, right now, apply for a sign to put up as long as you meet the

requirements of the rules of the game. It has to be tourism related, so on and

so on. You can get a permit for up to a year. If you qualify and it is okay to

put it up, you have one year.

We have done a full TODS rollout in two sections, as a pilot project. We are

still encouraging people, rather than go out now and buy a new sign to put up,

to get a permit and put it up because in a year's time your

section could be

done. We are rolling it out in sections. We are suggesting: Listen, instead of

doing that, why don't you buy a TODS sign and put it up? Then you have no

worries about it.

MR. JOYCE: Can we get a copy of where you are going next so we can, like

out my way, inform the people of Bay of Islands? Because it is haphazard the way

it is being enforced. If we had some way of saying, here is what we are doing

next, so you could inform people. If you do this, this is what is going to

happen next year. So do not

MR. FRENCH: We have not picked a

section for a total rollout yet, but in

the last couple of years what we have been doing is installing the bigger signs

across the Province to get people's head around.

Like I mentioned earlier, in Clarenville, for example, we have been buying

the bigger signs, the big ones for the Trans Canada. I guess now as time goes on

we will branch out. That is where we have been the last twelve months, is the

larger, bigger signs. Sure, I will certainly inform you when we make a decision

on what area we are doing next, no problem.

MR. JOYCE: Okay.

Do you want I had fifteen minutes.

CHAIR: I am going to go back and forth.

MR. JOYCE: Yes, good idea.

CHAIR: Okay, Mr. Joyce.

Mr. Mitchelmore.

MR. MITCHELMORE: When it comes to the Arts and Culture Centres, 3.1.02,

has the federal government changed its funding allocation? Because last year it

was $58,500 and this year it is anticipated to be $75,000?

MR. FRENCH: Yes, they have been reduced. A 10 per cent reduction to the

arts presentation and a 10 per cent holdback, and that will be received when the

final report is done apparently.

MR. MITCHELMORE: Okay, thank you for that.

Under the Newfoundland and Labrador Arts Council, that is the next section,

Grants and Subsidies remain the same. Has there been any change to looking at

what the average grant and the applications that can be put forward? Because it

seems like we have a small sum of money for the number of applicants that are

being applied. There are so many who are being turned away each year. Was there

no consideration for looking at an increase?

MR. FRENCH: Any time that you have a grant-driven program, you are going

to have a number of people who will not get money. We have taken that fund from

$800,000 I think it was, or $750,000 to $2.1 million. We have made significant

investments.

Unfortunately, there is never enough money to go around never. I am sure we

could make that fund we could double it tomorrow and we could easily move it.

It does not matter what area you are in, whether you are in the arts, whether

you are in recreation, whether you are in Municipal Affairs, or TW, there is

just no end to the amount of people who want support. Some of them are very good

projects, but you cannot be everything to everybody. That is the reality.

MR. MITCHELMORE: How does our Arts Council funding rank in terms of the

other Provinces?

MR. FRENCH: I would not be able to tell you. I do not know. I have no

idea.

MR. MITCHELMORE: Is there anyone on staff who would be able to answer it?

MR. FRENCH: I know we are in the game. We are not the lowest in the

country, if that is what you mean, per capita. Exactly where we stand, I do not

know. I am sure the Arts Council could tell you exactly where they stand.

MR. MITCHELMORE: Okay, I will certainly touch base with them.

The Rooms Corporation received over a $1 million cut in funding. You had

noted that there were thirteen positions that were being laid off or deemed

redundant, that included archivists and conservators. That really has an impact

on the Archives Division really to collect, preserve and make the historical

records available to the public. Is the department concerned about its

legislative mandate to the Archives?

MR. FRENCH: No, we believe we can still maintain the services that we

have provided all along. We are not worried about that. Like I said they had a

staffing the interesting thing about The Rooms is that there were three groups

that came together when The Rooms was formed. There was the Museum Association,

the Archives, and the Art Gallery. These were all provincial groups that came

together with their staff complements.

A staff complement of eighty-eight people is fairly significant. We figured

that in working with the group down there where we wanted to find savings was

not so much in how we wanted to reduce the impact it had on people who visited

the site. We had to find the savings. It is unfortunate that these people were

let go, but that was the reality. Like I said I did not take any delight in that

process, but it was a necessary evil.

MR. MITCHELMORE: Right. I have done quite a bit of research on The Rooms

in my past studies at Memorial University and throughout that process as part of

retail management. I am concerned that these cutbacks will have a significant

impact. I am a member of The Rooms annually.

Just looking at what they do, their programming, that they reach out to

children, to others, looking at their impact and role they play at heritage

fairs, at school tours that they give, and other children's programs, they are

certainly going to have to be reduced when you reduce your staff to that

amount, it is quite a bit of downloading.

Is the department concerned of the impact that is going to have on the

culture of Newfoundlanders and Labradorians, to be able to promote and expand

our quite a significant part of what helps our tourism budget grow as well.

MR. FRENCH: Well, people who come here, from the tourism perspective, go

to The Rooms. If I know people who come here I always bring them to The Rooms,

for example, if asked friends and family, and one thing and another but we

are not exactly down there with a nail bag strapped on and sheets of plywood

tacking up to the windows. That is a $6 million investment annually. It employs

fifty-seven full-time employees and eighteen part-time, so it is not like we are

turning our back on the place and boarding it up.

It is still a significant investment from government's perspective. I

believe, and government believes, that it can maintain the services that it

provides, and that is our goal. We had to find efficiencies in