Manitoba Hansard — 22 July 1986 (Sitting 53A, 33rd Legislature, 1st Session)

33-1-53a

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Thursday, 24 July, 1986. Time - 2:00 p.m. OP ENING PRAYER by Madam Speaker. MADAM SP EAK ER, Hon. M. Phillips: Pres enting Petitions . . . Reading and Receiving Petitions . PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES MADAM SP EAKER: The Honourable Member for Elmwood. MR. J. MALOWAY: Madam Speaker, I beg to present the Fourth Report of the Committee of Economic Development. MR. CLERK, W. Remnant: Your commit tee met on Tuesday, July 22, 1986, in Room 255 of the Legislative Building to consider the Annual Report of Manfor Ltd. Messrs. Murray 0.

Harvey, Chairman of the Board, Spencer Balmer, Chief Executive Officer, and members of the staff provided such information as was requested by members of the commit tee with respect to the business and the Annual Report of Manfor Ltd. Your committee examined the Annual Report of Manfor Ltd. for the period ended December 31, 1985, and adopted the same as presented. MADAM SP EAKER: The Honour able Mem ber for Elmwood. MR. J. MALOWAY: Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Kildonan, that the Report of the Comm ittee be received. MOTION presented and carried.

MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS AND TABLING OF REPORTS MADAM SP EAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. HON. R. PE NNER: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I beg leave to table the 1985 Annual Report of the Manitoba Police Commission. MADAM SP EAKER: No tic es of Mo tion ... Introduction of Bills . . ORAL QUESTIONS MTX - visas MADAM SPEA KER: The Honourable Mem ber for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Thank you, Madam Speaker. My question is to the First Minister.

Given recent confusion in terms of statements as to whether there is or is not discrimination against Jews and women in the hiring practices of MTX and its subsid iary in Saudi Arabia, my question to the First Minister is: has he or any member of his Treasury Bench contacted the Saudi Arabian Embassy in Ottawa to determine what their policy is in terms of granting visas for women and Jews who may be working with MTX or its subsidiary in Saudi Arabia? MADAM SPEA KER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. H.

PAWLEY: Madam Speaker, as I indicated on Tuesday, my office was in contact with the External Affairs Department in Ottawa. During the course of obtaining information from External Affairs in respect to the policy on the part of the Saudi Arabian Embassy, we were advised by External Affairs that visas are not rejected on the basis of religion or sex. I am further pursuing that. Also, Madam Speaker, I have forwarded this entire matter to the Canadian Human Rig hts Comm ission so we can obtain an objective finding as to whether or not there is any discrimination insofar as MTS and subsidiaries are concerned. MR. D.

ORCHARD: Madam Speaker, given that Hadid Harsina, who is a visa officer for the Saudi Arabian mission to the U.N., has indicated that visas are not granted to women working in Saudi Arabia unless they're nurses or teachers, and that the chances of a Jewish individual receiving a visa are indeed very slim, given that statement by that visa officer in the Saudi Arabian Mission to the U.N., would the First Minister not undertake to conta ct the Saudi Arabian Embassy in Ottawa di rectly , sinc e it is a Manitoba Cr own corporation which is making applications, presumably, for work in Saudi Arabia, to determine directly from the Saudi Arabian Em bassy whether those visas are granted by the Saudi Arabian Em bassy in Canada to any Jew or woman who may wish to go to Saudi Arabia to work on behalf of MTX or its subsidiary?

HON. H. PAWLEY: Madam Speaker, in addition to the advice which my office received from External Affairs, I have requested further commun ication to the Saudi Arabian Em bassy in respect to this matter. MTX - Cezar Industries MR. D. ORCHARD: Madam Speaker, my question is to the Minister responsible for the Manitoba Telephone System. Madam Speaker, in the near future presumably, we will be reconvening the Public Utilities Comm ittee to deal with the Annual Report of the Manitoba Telephone System and MTX.

Can the Minister assure myself and members of that committ ee in the Opposition that we will have, in advance of the calling of that meeting, the business plan that MTX has forwarded to the Minister 2153

Thursday, 24 July, 1986 and to the board of their investment of $3.375 million in a joint venture with Cezar Industries in California? Will that business plan be made available to members of this Opposition on that committee prior to its sitting, so that we can more adequately peruse that business venture outside of Canada and Manitoba by MTX? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister responsible for MTS. HON. A. MACKLING: Madam Speaker, I believe that I answered a similar question earlier that the honourable member put in concern about a business plan.

I indicated then that certainly before the authorization of monies in respect to the investment with Cezar Industries of California, MTX Board did review projections of the proposed venture. I'm sure that there will be information available at the sitting of the committee which will elaborate on that venture. As to whether or not it conforms to what he styles a business plan , I don't know at this stage .

But I will request that there be a clear indication of the nature of the investment, what is anticipated to be the return from that investment, how the system is - and I believe it's a use of technology - how that technology will be sold and marketed. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Pembina . MR. D. ORCHARD: Madam Speaker , the Minister's answer doesn 't come quite to the point.

In view of the fact that the business plan for the FAST alarm system, which was a competitive venture by MTS in Winnipeg and in Manitoba, was made available to members of the Public Utilities Committee, I simply re ask my question because the Minister has taken it under advisement in the past. Will he not make available his similar business plan which exists for MTX's recent investment in Ceza r Industries in California for marketing of certain technologies? HON. A. MACKLING: Madam Speaker, as I've indicated, I will ensure that as much information as is reasonably possible is placed before the committee.

I have indicated in earlier answers that in the competitive area there is some difficulty in providing some information that might otherwise be requested because it is not fair to another party in a contractt.1al arrangement to provide complete disclosure of anything that anyone wants because that could be prejudicial to those competitive operations . But to the best of my ability , I will ensure that information that the honourable member should reasonably have put before him will be available.

As a matter of fact , I will endeavour to review with him before the sitting of the committee , the information I obtain. MR. D. ORCHARD: Thank you , Madam Speaker. Madam Speaker, the business plan that I'm requesting does not jeopardize any confidential arrangements between Cezar Industries and MTX. It provides .. . MADAM SPEAKER: Does the honourable membe r have a supplementary? MR. D. ORCHARD: Yes, Madam Speaker , I have a question to the Minister . The bu.siness plan outlines MTX 's investment and their projected returns .

In the interests of prot ect ing the Manitoba ratepayers and the taxpayers of Manit oba, that information should be made available to member s of the committee for their perusal in advance to the committee so they can provide . . MADAM SPEAKER: Does the member have a question? MR. D. ORCHARD : Yes, Madam Speaker, so that we can better ascertain whether this business venture is profitable. And I simply ask the Minister : can he assure us that the business plan, which doesn 't conflict with the contractual arrangement with Cezar industries, be made available prior to the next sitting of the MTS hearing? HON. A.

MACKLING: I believe I have given an answer to that question three time s. I will repeat that I will endeavour to provide as much information as possible and as reasonably prudent , in respect to those contractual arrangements and I will do so at the committee; and I will do even better than that, where I had that information before the date of the committee sitting, I will review that with my honourable friend. Stadiums, City of Winnipeg - funding to MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Charleswood . MR. J. ERNST: Thank you, Madam Speaker . My question is to the Minister responsible for Sport.

Could the Minister advise the House why the Provincial Government is not participating in the funding of two stadiums app rov ed last night by Winnipeg City Council , given that the Minister had volunteered or offered certain funding for those self-same projects a matter of four months ago? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister for Sport. HON. L. DESJARDINS: I'll make sure I understand the question; make sure I heard the question correctly . Why did the Provincial Government refuse - (Interjection) - why we're not participating? I guess because the city doesn't want us to participate.

My honourable friend knows the way they work at the city. I'm te lling him that I'm a little fed up. First of all, we tried to get together with the Federal Government , the city and the Sports Federat ion. They 've agreed to work with a group to look at the needs and facilities. We had an agreement , it was a commitment from the two level s of government and the Sports Federa tion to put a certain amount of money in there and have a well-planned , five-year program.

The baseball then, after we had been told that there was no doubt that if we agreed to that they were coming in, we were told that they were no longer coming in. I didn 't hear from the city or the Mayor since then, except on one occasion - and I'll come back to that. 2154

Thursday, 24 July, 1986 I had suggested that we get back and look at what was needed. The city , as they did for a number of months, I would get one answer from the mayor, one answer from somebody else. They would go to council three months after. The council would dump on the mayor, then he'd dump on me and I'm a little fed up with this kind of game. Now, if you want to hear more, we are on record as saying that we need facilities. Here we are on record as saying we would like to work with the city. Councillor Savoie was over to see me and we had agreed that if they sent us something in writing.

They asked us to answer them and made sugges tions that we get together again and not to take all the time. Wo uld you tune in tonight; we're going to do sports tonight after eight o'clock and I'm sure we'll discuss that. MR. J. ERN ST: A supplementary question to the Minister. Could the Minister advise if the province attached to their offer of funding certain conditions that would make it unacceptable to the City of Winnip eg in order to take the funds? HON. L.

DESJARDINS: The agreement that we made was acceptable to the City of Winnipeg; the principle that we agreed with, so I don't know what conditions. lt was being prepared by the legal experts, the Sports lawyers, and it was discussed with them in legal terms and we had agreed to certain things. I requested that we meet with the city, that all I wanted was the commitments that were made.

We even had a press conference - the Mayor with his baseball cap on and the rest of us - and everybody was smiles; and all of a sudden, I don't hear from them, but I'm getting it second hand and from the councillors that want to play games. Bingos MR. J. ERNST: I have a new question, this time to the Minister responsible for Lotteries. Could the Minister advise the House why lic ence fees for non-profit corporations and volunteer organizations have been incr eased 400 percent? MADAM SPEAK ER: The Hono urable Min ister responsible for Lotteries. HON. J. WASY LYCIA-L EIS: Thank you, Madam Speaker.

I'd like to look into that and get specific material back to the member opposite. MR. J. ERNS T: Perhaps the Minister, in taking that as notice, would also take as notice then and bring back a policy why certain legions in the City of Winnipeg have had their bingo dates cut back as well. HON. J. WASYLYCIA-L EIS: Yes, Madam Speaker, I'l l be happy to take the details of that question as notice. I think the member though is also referring to a situation where various organizations are part of a grandfathered clause and they are quite well aware of the process involved for decreased funding over several years.

Mines inspectors, Snow lake area MADAM SP EAKER: The Honourable Member for Niakwa. MR. A. KOVNATS: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I would direct my question to the Minister of Environment and Wo rkplace Safety and Health whose department has jurisdiction over mines inspection. In an

article in the Winnip eg Free Press today, it states that the Hudson's Bay Mining and Smelting Co. has been fined $3,500 on charges relating to the death of a miner at the Spruce Point mine near Snow Lake, January 7, 19 85. Can the Honourable Minister advise how many mines inspectors he has in the Snow Lake Fiin Flon area? MADAM SP EAKER: The Honour able Mi nister of Wo rkplace Safety and Health. HON. G. LECUY ER: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I'm not sure of the exact figure. I can tell the member there is at least one. but I shall check that and bring back the exact information. MR. A.

KOV NATS: To the same Minister, can the Honourable Minister advise whether this one or any others - is the Mines inspector who was a union representative, who was hired over the choice of another inspector within the last year or so who had underground experience? Can the Honourable Minister advise whether this mi nes inspector is the union representative with very little or no mines inspection or mines experience underground? HON. G. LECUYER: The short answer is no, but the premises of the member opposite are wrong. He knows that. The same questions were asked during Estima tes at the beginning of this week.

The answers were given to this question. The individual in question is in Flin Flon. He was employed prior - although he was, I don't know if at that time or sometime in the past, a union rep for the Steel Wo rkers of America. He was hired through the normal process, the Civil Service process, and was found to be the most qualified. Not only is it wrong to say he had no experience, Madam Speaker, but he was under cont ract with the company to do mines inspection in the area of Wo rkplace Safety and Health at the time. MR. A.

KOV NATS: Madam Speaker, I did not state that he had no mine experience; I said little or no. Madam Speaker, I said that he was chosen over another candidate. MADAM SPEAKER: Does the honourable member have a supplementary question? MR. A. KOVNATS: Can the Honourable Minister, the same Minister, Madam Speaker, advise whether this preferential treatment of hiring union representatives over other people is going to be a practice that's going to continue, or is he going to look into it and see that there will not be preferential treatment in hiring unless they're hired by their ability to do the job? 2155

Thursday, 24 July, 1986 HON. G. LECUYER: If the premises were wrong the first time, they have to be wrong the second time because they're the same, Madam Speaker. As I said, I did not hire this individual, Madam Speaker. He was hired through the normal process. He was recommended as being the most qualified individual , who was at the time, as I said, under contract with the company to do exactly that, Workplace Safety and Health mines inspection, and had been doing it for two years at that time. MPIC - appointment of Minister as Chairman MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Riel. MR. G.

DUCHARME: Thank you , Madam Speaker, it's to the Minister of Municipal Affairs in charge of MPIC. I know it has been the practice of the NOP Government in the past to appoint the Minister in charge of MPIC as chairman of the board . Considering the recent announcement , will this recent appointment of the Minister of MPIC as chairman of the board be a permanent appointment? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON . H. PAWLEY: Madam Speaker , I th ink that question should probably be addr essed to myself .

I must advise you, Madam Speaker, without wanting to be immodest, that our experience in respect to appointment of Ministers as Chairs of MPIC in the past has been relatively positive from the period 1971 to 1977. I have every confidence that the present Minister responsible for the Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation will fulfill an effective , useful role , I trust , for many years to come as chair of the Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation. MPIC - general manager reporting to Minister and Board MR. G.

DUCHARME: A supplement, will the acti ng general manager, under this appointment, now report directly to the Minister as chairman of the board? HON. H. PAWLEY: Madam Speaker, the general manager , of course, or acting general manager is accountable and reportable to the chairman and the Board of the Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation. Manitoba Youth Job Coalition MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Ellice. MR. H. SMITH: Thank you, Madam Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Economic Security .

I noticed in today's newspaper that the Manitoba Youth Jobs Coalition, a new group that was just formed, has expressed their concern about a variety of issues affecting young people , one of them being unemployment. Is the Minister aware of this group? Is he going to meet with this group, and is he going to address their concerns? 2156 MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Mi nis ter of Employment Service s. HON. L. EVANS: Thank you, Madam Speaker. Yes, the group in que stion contacted us a couple of weeks ago , Madam Speaker, requesting a meeting after a press conference that they had scheduled.

I believe our office has established a meeting for next Tuesday, at which time we look forward to meeting with them and listening to their concerns and their suggestion s. Employment - student MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Ellice , with a supplementary. MR. H. SMITH: Just how serious is the unemploymen t rate for young people in Manitoba compared with the rest of Canada, the other provinces? HON. L. EVANS: Madam Speaker, according to the labour force statistics for June, the latest figures we have , our rate is 10.7 percent, much above the average for the province but well below the Canadian average.

In fact, I und erstand we're the second lowest in Canada. Madam Speaker, it could be even lower if the Federal Government had not cut back on their spending on new job programs this summer. They cut back 1.4 million last summer and an additional 1.4 million this summer , so we 've lost $2.8 million in the level of spending by the Federal Government. I say that, nevertheless we have kept our programs going , our Career Start Program , $8.5 million, 6,000 jobs. We had our Northern Youth Program going at full steam. Of course , as many of the rural members know, we have 43 Youth Job offices around Manitoba.

MADAM SPEAKER: Order please . May I remind Honourable Ministers to keep their answers brief. Question period time is not a time for debate. Community colleges - federal funding MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Ellice. MR. H. SMITH : Has the Manitoba Government been able to reach agreement with the Federal Government on a new revised National Training Act? HON. L. EVANS: Madam Speaker, regrettably the answe r is no. We have no agreement in effect today with the Federal Government pertaining to our community colleges in Manitoba .

We refuse to allow the Federal Government to cut the funding of our community colleges by 39 percent in three years , meaning a loss of $16.3 million for this province. I can advise the honourable members of the House, Madam Speak er, that I have written to the new Minister of Employm ent in Ott awa, asking for him to review this and suggesting we meet early so that we can get, hopefully, a more positive response from the Federal Government.

Thursday, 24 July, 1986 Road construction - Portage la Prairie MADAM SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Mem ber for Portage la Prairie. MR. E. CONNERY: Thank you, Madam Speaker, to the Minister of Highways. For the last year I' ve been receiving numerous complaints of the condition of the P.R. roads in the constituency of Portage la Prairie. I have brought this to the attention of the House on several occas ions. I'v e also been informed that there is considerable work being done in the area of Dauphin.

Would the Minister inform this House what work has been done in his constitue ncy, in the constituency of Dauphin, and all the various forms of construction, maintenance, etc., the dollar value put on it, and how much has been done in the constituency of Portage la Prairie? I'm sure other members would like to know what is happening in their constituencies also. MADAM SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Minis ter of Hig hways and Transportation. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Madam Speaker, it's interesting to see a question that covers the waterfront, if we have an hour and I'll get out the information I have.

The program here, it is about 50 pages long. We could go through all the work that has been done in all the constituencies in the Province of Manitoba. The fact is that we have dealt with this, the member had an opportunity - the Member for Portage - to discuss all of the work in his area that he was concerned with during the Estimates process. If he did not ask those questions then, I'm sure he's going to have to either ask for an Order for Return or else wait for next year during the Estimates to get his priorities forward.

I'm always open to suggestions from him as to what he sees is the major priorities in this area as well, and he can drop in to see me as well, Madam Speaker. MADAM SPEAKER: The Hon ourable Mem ber for Portage la Prairie. MR. E. CONNERY: Thank you, Madam Speaker. In both of my earlier speeches, I brought out the deplorable conditions of the hig hways in the Portage la Prairie area. In the Estimates, which unfortunately I chose agriculture . . . MADAM SPEAKER: Does the honourable member have a supplementary? MR. E. CONNERY: Yes.

The Minister said in Hansard from the Estima tes that there was flexibility within his program and if it was brought forward by municipalities or M LA's, he would review the responsibilities in those areas. I am asking the Minister to review the amount of money spent on highways in the Portage la Prairie constituenc y. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Madam Speaker, first of all, I did not say there was flexibility in terms of adding additional programs, projects dur ing the year. That is misinformation that the member is bringing to this House.

Second ly, I said that we have approved projects greater than the amount of dollars that could flow and therefore there would be certain projects that would be able to move forward faster than others, but not that we could add projects to the program until next year, of course. In addition to that, Madam Speaker, it should be noted that we do not approve projects for construction on the basis of the constituency that they're in. We base them on overall priorities.

There is no discussion and look at the constituency boundaries, so we're not looking at it from that point of view as well, Madam Speaker. lt should be noted that we're looking at it in regions, priorities for regions in the province. There are areas in this province who do not have any roads at all, who have not had the privilege of having the kind of infrastructure that were present in the area around Portage la Prairie. We have to balance all of the requir ements for this province in priorities, Madam Speaker. MR. E. CONNERY: Madam Speaker, a supplementary.

Am I able to quote from Hansard to rebut what the Minister has said? MADAM SPEAKER: May I remind the honourable member that question period is not a time for debate. MR. E. CONNERY: Yes, I appreciate that, Madam Speaker. But we just had debate from the Minister, I guess that's not possible. North Star Plant, Arborg MR. E. CONNERY: A new question, if I may, to the Minister of Business Development. Madam Speaker, some time in June, we had the North Star Plant at Arborg - it was indicated that it would not be starting up.

Have there been any changes in that development and if there are or not, what has the department also done to try to achieve that this plant will start up? MADAM SPEAK ER: The Honour able Minis ter of Business Development and Tourism. HON. M. HEMPHILL: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I'll be glad to take that question as notice and provide the member opposite with an update. Discrimination - legislation re MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for River Heights. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: Thank you, Madam Speaker. My question is to the First Minister.

The Province of Ontario has legislation which requires Crown corporations and government agencies dealing with forei gn countri es to di scl ose pu blic ly any regulations imposed on them by those countries which are in conflict either with the laws of Canada or with the laws of Ontario. Will the First Minister consider im plementing such legislation in the Provi nc e of 2157

Thursday, 24 July, 1986 Manitoba in order for the public to be fully informed before the fact of potential discrimin ation occurs? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable First Ministe r. HON. H. PAWLEY: Madam Speaker, that sounds like a very constructive suggestion from the Member for River Heights . I would be anxious to review the regulations that she's made reference to in the Province of Ontario and ascertain whether or not they would be beneficial or of advantage to be implemented in the Prov ince of Manitoba . Red River Workshop MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Emerson . MR. A.

DRIEDGER: Thank you, Madam Speaker. My question is to the Minister of Community Services. The Red River Workshop located in St. Malo which hire handicapped people has been receiving grants from the government for a number of years . The amoun t of the grant that was approved for this year was $10,300 · - they normally received it in June. They received $5,000 in July and it was indicated that the balanc e of mor.ey would be received after the Estimates process had been completed within the department. I want to know: did the Min ister authorize that this kind of information be forwarded to the Red River Workshop?

MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Community Services. HON. M. SMITH: Madam Speaker, that's similar to the question that was asked earlier in the week about another workshop. The total grant system has been approved now and the cheques are going out . Problems have arisen with the lateness of the Estimates process , so it's not a problem that should recur . MR. A. DRIEDGER: To the same Minister. Is it the approach of this government that they withhold certain grants until the Estimates are finished?

I fail to understand the rationale of why we have Interim Supply if half of the money has to be held back because of the Estimates not having been completed? HON. M. SMITH: Madam Speaker, there was an arrangement to take us up to roughly the end of July, but I think this government has been extremely careful about not sending out cheques prior to official approval. Liens on property - moratorium on MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Gladstone . MRS. C. OLESON: Thank you , Madam Speaker . My question is to the Minister of Employment Services and Economic Security.

I wonder can the Minister advise the House if he has put a moratorium on the registration of liens on property while legislation concerning it is before the House . MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Mi nister of Employment Services . HON. L. EVANS: Madam Speak er, I believe the honourable member would be referring to muni cipal liens . We have not been in contact with the municipalitie s suggesting that. I don't believe we have any legal ability to place a moratorium. Perh aps the municip aliti es themse lves will have undertaken that action, but that's up to the municipalities of Manitoba to decide. MRS. C.

OLESON : I wonder if the Minister co uld look into this , because I had a phone call this morning from a person whom the department is actively pursuing putting a lien on his property and while he is actively pursuing try ing to register his mortgage . He's in danger of losi ng his house. I wonder if the Minister could look int o that sort of thing . HON. L. EVANS: Madam Speaker, I wasn 't clear from the first question whether the honourable member was referring to a municipal lien or a lien placed by the Department of Employment Services.

Well, it sho uld be clear to the honourable member and to other members of the House that there will continue to be liens placed on certain categories in the Province of Manitoba , both by the municipal government and by the Province of Manitoba. As has been explained, there is a limited range of options for us to place liens . We'll certainly look into that particular question if the honourable member would give me some of the detail. But ther e are certain lim ited areas where we will be placing liens and I think that's been outlined in the legislation . Lake Manitoba levels MRS. C.

OLESON: Now , my question is to the Minister of Natural Resources . The Municipality of Lakeview had recently contacted the Minister about the water levels on Lake Manitoba and that they 're extremely high . I wonder if the Minister has had time to look into this and can advise us what action will be taken . MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Natural Resources . HON. L.

HARAPIAK: Madam Speaker , in responding to a similar question from the Member for Portage la Prairie, I brought information to this House which indicated that the lake levels on Lake Manitoba were within the desirable range , and I can report that still is the case. MRS. C. OLESON: Well, if the Minister would please look at the letter from the R.M. of Lakeview, I'm sure he will learn from that their opinion is the lake is considerably higher than the allowable level. It was high before the recent rainfa ll and is rising . So would the Mini ster please undertake to look at that and get an answer to those people .

HON. L. HARAPIAK: Lest some people doubt the information that I am bringing forward today and that 2158

Thursday, 24 July, 1986 I brought forward for the Member for Portage la Prairie, I would like to indicate to this House that the figures that are being provided are not readings from the Province of Manitoba, but in fact readings taken by the federal people. MRS. C. OLESON: Could the Honourable Minister tell us what difference it makes who does the readings when you go by them? HON. L. HARAPIAK: Madam Speaker, I would like to point out in fact that it doesn't make any difference who takes the readings.

I was simply wanting to share with the members that, if there was some ques tion, as I had indicated that the level was within the desirable limits as expressed on the information that was made available. I only wanted to give them further reassurance that there were people other than provincial employees looking at this matter, and I simply wanted to share that information. Legislative Building - tours of MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. D. ROCAN: Thank you, Madam Speaker, my question is to the Minister responsible for Government Services.

Could the Minister tell this House who is responsible for giving tours of the Legislative Buildings, and what are the hours? MADAM SPEAKER: The Hono urable Mi nister of Government Services. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Madam Speaker, I will get the information on the tours for the honourable member, and bring it back to the House. Native business development corporation - establish ment of MR. D. ROCAN: A new question, Madam Speaker, to the Minister responsible for Manitoba Hydro.

A consulting report prepared for the government by WMC Research Associates Manitoba Lim ite d recommended the es tablishment of a Native business development corporation to coordinate joint ventures and bonding assistance to Natives. Has such an agency been set up, or have the WMC recommendations been rejected? MADAM SPEAKER : The Hono urable Minis ter of Energy and Mines. HON. V. SCHROEDER: Thank you, Madam Speaker, I'll take that question as notice. Native employment re Limestone MR. D. ROCAN: A new questio n, Madam Speaker, to the Minister responsible for the Status of Indians.

Madam Sp eaker , this same consultant who has received over $1 20,000 from this government stated: 2159 "Our assessment is that the Limestone Project is unlikely to result directly in sustained economic growth in the Northern region. In fact, substantial further declines in this sector have occurred since 1981 and prospects are poor." Since this government has estimated that Limestone will create only 35 permanent jobs, will the government commit to hiring Natives for those permanent positions? HON. V.

SCHROEDER: I'm pleased to say that report the member has quoted has led to the preparation by this government for the construction of Limestone in such a way that we have been able to hire hundreds - not 35 but hundreds - of Manitoba northern Natives, whom we have been able to provide with training, who are now recei ving experience and who will then be entitled with that training and experience to obtain employment along with other Manitobans.

WMC has provided us with very valuable information, has provided us with very sensible structures as against other consultants who said that would not work, as against what the Tories said, that we shouldn't have those preferences during the election campaign. We said we will have them. We will ensure that we will do every thing possible to have Native northern employment. They will get experience; they're getting it. We're not getting as many of them on as we would like.

We're doing everything possible to improve that, but we are doing a far better job than has been done on any previous northern construction job in ensuring that there is northern Native involvement. Workplace Safety and Health regulations re sch ool divisions MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Ste. Rose. MR. G. CUMMINGS: Thank you, Madam Speaker, my question is to the Minister responsible for Workplace Safety and Health.

A large number of school divisions in this province have expressed a considerable amount of concern regarding the regulations of Wo rkplace Safety and Health being imposed on the school divisions, and they'r e conc erned about th e cha nges that were implemented without consultation in these past recent months. Wo uld the Min ister give this Ho use an undertaking to consult further with the divisions of this province regarding these regulations? MADAM SPEAKER: The Hono urable Mi nister of Workplace Safety and Health. HON. G. LECUYER: Thank you, Madam Speaker.

I have met with representatives of the school divisions. In fact, I'v e given them an extension to respond to the draft regulation until some time in mid-Septem ber, Madam Speak er. Therefore, they're having all the opportunity that they desire for consultation on that particular re gul ation. I' ve met, as I said, with representatives of a large group of school divisions. But for the information of the member, I have to say that the school divisions generally - well, not generally - everyone, without an except ion, including the school

Thursday, 24 July, 1986 districts, have implemented the Workplace Safety and Health joint committees. In spite of some of the problems associated with such implementations, they have all agreed that Workplace Safety and Health applies to the school system, and I'm glad to see that has happened . As far as consultation , that is why there is a draft regulation . That's what they're asked to do, Madam Speaker, is to give us their feedback . MR. G. CUMMINGS: That's exactly one of the problems that the divisions have.

They have not received the draft copies , and have not been able to be involved in the consultation process. My question is to the Minister of Education . Also, Madam Speaker , will he be supporting the divisions that have expressed concerns abou t the fact that they are overregulated , that they are regulated by every pu blic governing bod y in this province that has anything to do with public gatherings or public institutions? Will he be supporting the school divisions in trying to have some relaxation of the regulations that are being applied? HON. G.

LECUYER : Madam Speaker, one of the bodies involved in the school system, that is representing the bus drivers , had not originally received the draft of the regulation. But to correct the member , as I've stated the other day, that is the reason why we've extended the period of time for which they can provide us their feedback . Having been informed of that oversight , we have proceeded to make sure that they all receive that draft cop y so that they can provide the feedback , Madam Speaker. MADAM SPEAKER: The time for Oral Questions has expired.

COMMITTEE CHANGES MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Ellice . MR. H. SMITH: Madam Speaker, I have some changes to announce for the Public Utilities and Natural Resources Committee: the Member for Concordia replacing the Member for Ellice; the Member for Thompson replacing the Member for St. James; the Member for Gimli replacing the Member for Elmwood . MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Emerson . MR. A. DRIEDGER: Madam Speaker, I have a change on the Standing Committee of Public Utilities: Kovnats for Orchard . HANSARD CORRECTION MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Charleswood. MR. J.

ERNST: Madam Speaker , a Hansard correction, if I may. Page 2089 , Paragraph 2, third line, first word, change the word " error" for the word " air." NON-POLITICAL STATEMENT MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER, C. Santos: The Member for River Heights . MRS . S. CARSTAIRS : Mr. Deputy Speaker, could I have leave to make a non-political statement , please ? (Agreed) The Int ernational Baccalaureate Prog ram is functioning in three high schools in Manitoba: Kelvin High School in my constituency of River Heights; Mile s Macdonell in the constituency of Rossmere; and Silver Heights in the constituency of Sturgeon Creek.

Students write exams set in Geneva and marked throughout the world. I am delighted to announce that, yesterday , the 1986 results were received. Nineteen students at Kelvin High School and four stu dents at Miles Macdonell received diplomas indicating high levels of achievement in six academic subjects, an extended paper in theory and knowledge. Thirteen additional students received credits at Kelvin , and thirty-two students at Mile s Macdonel l. It would appear from past results that their marks are well above the wo rld average.

Thes e students, in completing work at a very high level of academic achievement, have show n through their hard work and initiative that they 've accomp lished a significant goa, and deserve our congratulations. Unfortunately , the Silver Heights School is closed, and I was unabl e to receive the results from that school. However , I am assured that there will be great satisfaction there on the part of both students and teachers. ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: I have been advised that Her Honour the Lieutenant-Governor is about to arrive to grant Royal Assent to Bill No. 7, the Interim Supply Bill.

I'm therefore interrupting the proceedings of this House. ROYAL ASSENT DEPUTY SERGEANT-AT-ARMS, Mr. A. Roy MacGillivray: Her Honour The Lieutenant-Governor . Her Honour, Pearl McGonigal , Lieutenant Governor of the Province of Manitoba, having entered the House and being seated on the Throne : Mr. Deputy Speaker addressed Her Honour in the following words : MR.

DEPUTY SPEAKER: May it please Your Hon ou r: We, Her Majesty 's most dutiful and faithful subjects, the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba in Session assembled , approach Your Honour with sentiments of unfeigned devotion and loyalty to Her Majesty's person and Government, and beg for Your Hon o ur the acceptance of this Bill : Bill No. 7 -

An Act for Granting to Her Majesty Certain Sums of Money for the Fiscal Year Ending March 31, 1987 and to Authorize Commitments to Expend 2160

Thursday, 24 July, 1986 Additional Money in Subsequent Years and to Authorize the Borr owi ng of Funds to Pr ovide for Cash Req uir ements of the Go ver nment (The Interim Appropriation Act, 19 86); Loi allouant a Sa Majeste certaines sommes d' argent pour l'annee financiere se terminant le 31 mars 19 87, et autorisant le gouvernement a engager des depenses pour les annees subsequentes et a faire les emprunts requis pour subvenir a ses besoins de fonds (Loi de 1986 portant affectation anticipee de credits). MR. CLERK, W.

Remnant: Her Honour, the Lieutenant Governor, doth thank Her Majesty's dutiful and loyal subjects, accepts their benevolence and assents to this Bill in Her Majesty's name. Her Honour was then pleased to retire. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The House will come to order. The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. J. COWAN: Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker.

Before moving the motion to move us into Commit tee of Supply, I'd like to indicate that there is an inclination on the part of members on both sides of the House to waive Private Members' Hour today, and to carry on with the discussion of Estima tes of Health and Education until 5:30 p.m., and commencing again at 8:00 p.m. I move, seconded by the Minister of Health, that Mr. Deputy Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve into a Commit tee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty.

MOTION presented and carried and the Ho us e resolved itself into a Commi ttee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty with the the Honourable Member for Burrows in the Chair for the Department of Health; and the Honourable Member for Kildonan in the Chair for the Department of Education. CO NCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY - EDUCATION MR. CHAIRMAN, M. Dolin: We are on Resolution 4 7 dealing with Ite m No. 2., Statutor y Boards and Commissions. But before questions, the Minister has some repons es to qu estions asked at pr evious meetings. The Minister of Education. HON. J. STORIE: Mr.

Chairp erson , a couple of questions were raised yesterday about the difference on 1.(

f) and 1. (

h) between what is really the adjusted vote or the actual, as he put it, and the figure shown, the actual and the adjusted, I should say. The differences essentially are a result of adjustments in mid- year, which resulted in the transferring of positions within different branches. For example, the 1.(f), there was a position transferred to the Educational Tech nology Program in 4.(b).

There was also a transfer of responsibility for the Media Net Film Booking system, through Dynamic Research, to Instructional Resources Branch in 4.(f)(2) 2161 in the amount of $5 1,000, and a transfer of responsibility for Computer Assisted Data Entry equipment to Red River Commun ity Colle ge which is 5.(c)(2). In 1. (h), it was a merger of the Teacher Certification Br anch with Admin istrative Services Br anch, a difference of $1 75,000 in salary and 42,700 in operating. Those were adjustments that occurred during the year. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Fort Garry. MR. C. BIRT: Thank you.

As it relates to the (f)( 1) adjustment, I take it those were three positions then? One went to 4.(b); one went to 4.(f); and then one went to 5.(c)(2). Therefore, there would be some sort of corresponding increase in Salary reflected under those areas. HON. J. STORIE: I believe it's only one position, but some operating dollars. The breakdown is $45,000 for the position, and $84,000 for operating. That's for the differences that were noted in 1. (f). In (h), it is salaries in the majority. The 17 5,000 figure is for salaries, and the 42,000 was for operating.

There were a number of other questions raised by the Member for Roblin-Russell, I believe, on the cost of operation with respect to cont ract services. At this point, th ere has been no special study of th e relationship, but I could indicate to the member that there is only one division in southern Manitoba which is not a small - in other words, there are five northern urban divisions which have contracted bus services, and only one southern division, which is the division of Pelly Trail which is fully contracted. So the member had indicated that was a problem.

There is only one division which fully contracts its services south of The Pas. There are a number of other divisions which have a joint school division operated transportation system and some contracting of services. MR. L. DERKACH: Can we have some numbers on that? HON. J. STORIE: Pardon me? MR. CHAIRMAN: He wants some numbers. HON. J. STORIE: The numb ers for which, Mr. Chairman? MR. CHAIRMAN: Could the member clarify which number? MR. L. DER KACH: What are the divisions that have a joint combi nation of divisio n-owned and con tract buses? HON. J. STORIE: The number is 13. MR. L.

DERKA CH: 13 divisions in the province? HON. J. STORIE: Yes. MR. L. DERKA CH: Outside of Winnipeg?

Thursday, 24 July, 1986 HON. J. STORIE: The 13 would include Winnipeg; 5 of those 13 are within the city itse lf. I should indicate that many of those are essentially for special needs ; that they contract services for special needs children . Mr. Chairperson, I don 't think there were any other questions which were taken as notice which have not been replied to. MR. L. DERKACH: Mr. Chairman , we'll come back to this particular

section when we deal with transportation, so we'll be able to elaborate on it at that time. MR. CHAIRMAN: We are on 2. Statutory Boards and Commissions - the Member for Riel. MR. G. DUCHARME: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, to the Minister. When Bill 72, The Teachers' Pension Act was passed last year, being a new member here this year and not in the Session, I un derstand it was a free vote at the time.

There was certain concerns expressed at the time of the presentation of the Teachers' Pensio n, and I believe the original intention of the act was, first of all, the removal of revenue guarantee ; provide a formula for pensioned teachers at age 55, providing they have them teaching for 30 years; no costs to the government over the next five years; and that this will open up opportunities for newly-graduated teachers at the bottom scale as these 55-year-old teachers take advantage of the opportunity for early retirement.

There were several concerns as a result of this particula r a ct being passed and I erred, it was a free vote on the Opposition side . Some of the concerns when the bill was passed, and one of them was concerns expressed by even the members who actually voted for the passing of the bill, was a very high percentage of these teachers who retired at 55.

One of the concerns was that he go back in the job market within a year and they'd be taking the jobs of others that do not require the same level of training and the same standar d of education that they have and they will be taking jobs that could be filled by people with lesse r qualifications. Has the Minister had any feedback in regard to one of these concerns or that concern? HON. J. STORIE: No, Mr. Chairperson, I have not had any feedback or reporting that there was a problem , either from the teachers or from school divisions administration. To my knowledge, it has not happened. MR. G.

DUCHARME: Are we doing any studies on this at all in regard to finding out where these teachers are going when they do retire? HON. J. STORIE: To my knowledge, there has not been any, but I will certainly raise the issue with staff and see if there is some way to track . MR. G.

DUCHARME: Also, during the debate, other questions came about and I can understand it was new at the time, but there seemed to be - there wasn't a question answered; we all realized that for the first five years there would be no cost to the government, but has there been any costs established from the 6 to 10 years in regard to the cost to the government? HON. J. STORIE: Yes, Mr. Chairman, just to back up.

I want to point out to the mem ber that when he inquires about the likelihood of a retired teache r re-entering the teaching workforce , that certa inly we would have an indication from school boards relatively quickly that was happening. Als o, it 's unlikely, given tha t a retiring teacher , in all likeliho od, is going to be at maximum on the scale, that it would be much more expensive for school boards to do that; so it's not likely to happen in that con text.

From my knowledge of teachers and the pres sure that teachers are under from the commencement of their careers, it is unlikely to happen for a lot of different psychological reasons . I think that 's one of the reasons why early retirement and the provisions made a lot of sense with the education al system as a whole. I did have one other question raised on Tuesday evening with respect to teachers retiring and I had indicated tha t 248 teach ers had retired. That is in the year 1985. That was an accura te figure.

The request was for an additional estimate of retirements for the next five years, and I can indicate that the estimate for the current year, 1986, is somewhe re in the neighbourhood of 270-285 and the pro jections are that kind of figure would be maintained over the next number of years. The numb er of earl y retirement s that were produced in 1985 was approximately 75 and the number in the full year of 1986, recognizing the timing of that legisl ati on was such that it left the question in a number of the minds of some tea chers.

That number would rise in 1986 to somewhere in the neighbourhood of 170 to 180 early retirements, and that is at the age of 55. So that in itself, that number of teachers represents a sign ificant saving to school divisions on the assumption that man y of the teachers that come into the work force woul d be at 50 percent or two-thirds of salary. So not only do you have a rejuvenation of the teaching wo rk force , but you also have a significant cost savings to those divisions who had early retirements. So the rationale for the early retirement , I think, was making sense.

To answe r your specific question about project costs to government post-1990, the answer is approximately $1 million a year. MR. G. DUCHARME: I can sympathize with the teachers after sitting on a school board for six years and realizing the importance of the bill. The other thing I was wondering, of the 248, you did guesstimate 75. You came in at 73, so you're very close in your estimation during your speech or during the previous Minister 's talks on the bill. I have consulted with several school divisions. They of course have not had the opportunity to get the numbers.

But has there been or is that definitely a saving fact or, as you previously mentioned, about the letting go of the higher priced teachers , or what levels are they finding that they're coming back into the work forc e? Are they definitely coming back in at the level - of cou rse , the y can 't come any lower than level 4. Are they coming in substantially lower at the work force? Have we got any marks for that? HON. J. STORIE : Mr. Chairman, recognizing this is only an assumption, but assuming that some 170 or 2162

Thursday, 24 July, 1986 180 teachers are early retiring and that the majority of the teachers coming on stream are less than maximum, many of whom will be early beginning teachers, Class 4 teachers starting the salary scale, the saving would be approximately 12, 000 plus per teacher. The saving on that figure is something like $2 million to the system for an early retirement cost of $1 million.

You spread that out over a period of years, and you have a tremendous saving to the system, apart from the question of rejuvenating the work force, teachers coming on who have up-to-date pedagogical skills and all the rest of it. MR. G. DUCHARME: The other explanation I'd like is, maybe the Minister could explain the reference and maybe he could explain to me the removal of the revenue guarantee, which was described earlier from the earlier Minister as a time bomb ticking off. Could the Minister explain what happens when you remove that guarantee? HON. J. STORIE: Mr.

Chairperson, essentially my understanding is that the revenue guarantee was put in place to protect the fund in the event of some catastrophe. If it lost a significant amount of money, the province would then be obligated to make sure that the liability of the fund was funded essentially. As an example - and this is a real example - in 19 85, CCB, Canadian Commercial Bank, went under. The TRAF had some $6 million invested in the bank. That in fact, of course, lowered th e Fund's resources, reserves, whatever.

If that would have continued over a period of time - I believe it's a three-year average - the province would then have a liability. lt would be responsible for putting money in. In fact, if the revenues coming into the Fund remain the same for the next couple of years, for this year at the cu rrent rate, that revenue guarantee would have cost the province probably $1 million. But because, in negotiations, that revenue guarantee was eliminated, we have probably saved an additional $1 million pre- 1990 because of the negotiations that went on.

So it has already saved the province money, and it was in fact a time bomb in the event that the investments that the Fund was making deteriorated rapidly for some reason. MR. G. DUCHARME: Can a member who has retired go back into the school divisions? HON. J. STORIE: There is nothing legally that would prohibit that to my knowledge. MR. G. DUCHARME: Say, he sits out for two years and goes back in with the school division, where is his starting point and what happens in the early pension plan? Where is his starting point? HON. J. STORIE: Mr.

Chairperson, he would be like a beg inning teac her other than, of course, his experience would be counted on the salary scale, and he would go in at a Class 4 maximum. MR. G. DUCHARME: Also if he goes back into the work force, you say there isn't anything in the act. Are you finding that the teachers are going back as substitute teachers and taking places of probably some of the part-time, the working mothers, this type of thing? Is there anything to indic ate that these people - because that was one of the reasons for passing this act probably was to get these people and maybe have more part time. HON. J.

STORIE: My understanding is that there are curr ently less than 25 who would be active even on a part-time substitute basis. I would indicate that, as a matter of course, I would certainly discourage school divisions from rehiring a retired teacher. Like I said, financially it doesn't make sense that they would do it anyway but, in terms of what I think the Teachers' Society wants to achieve, what the schools boards wanted to achieve, and what the province wanted to achieve, that would be counter produc tive. MR. G.

DUCHARME: That was a concern of some of the teachers that I've been in touch with and the ones who were on the substitute list, because you have a problem with some of them. There are long lists out there that school divisions can draw from. They were quite concerned about that. Mr. Chairman, could the Minister explain to me the Form 2, Employment Form, that a teacher takes out? HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairperson, the Form 2 contract is the standard contract that a teacher joining a division would sign. MR. G. DUCHARME: Has there been anything further added to that Form 2, when this Pension Act came in?

Was there anything added to that Form 2? HON. J. STORIE: The answer is no. MR. G. DUCHARME: I hate to go back to the original intent. I think that there's something coming forward right now in regard to changing the act, if I'm inc orrect, is there something changing the act that they would move the year back to 19 73 to qualify under this pension? Is there something in the mill to do that? HON. J. STORIE: Yes, Mr.

Chairperson, there are amendments curr ently before the Legislature which would provide for transfer of benefits with provinces or jurisdictions where there are reciprocal agreements; but I add, that is before the Legislature. MR. G. DUCHARME: Can the Minister tell me why the year '73 was picked? HON. J. STORIE: The year '73, I understand, was picked because previous legislation referenced the year 1973 as the cutoff before which we would not recip rocate transfers. MR. G.

DUCHARME: One last one is that: I had a problem on other calls from some teachers, and in lieu of the penalty being dropp ed of taking the early retirement in the act, now I understand - and I don't know if the Minister has heard any feedback, and I 2163

Thursday, 24 July, 1986 know the Minister doesn't get involved in negotiations - there are teachers or divisions that the teachers are now negotiating saying we'll take the early retirement if you give us a cash-out of 70 percent of our last year at the age of 55. That concerns me, because I think that probably goes right back to costs to the taxpayers again. The intention of removing the penalty was the intention to get them to retire early, not now to negotiate, to get a cash-out at the age of 55. HON. J. STORIE: Yes, Mr.

Chai rperson, there were a number of divisions and certainly the member is correct when he referenced to the fact th at is part of negotiations, part of the collective bargaining process. However, I suppose the school division, on its own basis, would have to look at the costs and benefits of doing that. Referencing the figure that I gave the member earlier that some $1 2,000 or $1 5,000 per year could be saved by hiring a be gin ning Class 4 teacher as opposed to one at maximum, that a buy-out, as the member referenced, might prove to be a saving over a very short number of years.

Again, there are so many other benefits attached to that, I can only say that particular issue hasn't been raised with me directly previou sly. But to the extent that it is going on within school divisions, obvious ly, if it becomes a concern, I would want to sit down and see if there is some way to address it. Just referencing back to the 25 figure that I gave you about people who are retired substituting or working part time. That 25 includes people who may have retired 10 years ago and may not have in fact taken early retirement simply means those who have retired. MR. G.

DUCHARME: You mentioned earlier, in regard to a retired teacher going back in the work force and starting back like a new teacher. This was another question that was given to me. When they go back, do they have immediate tenure when they go back or do they go through the same process of the year later. HON. J. STORIE: I'm informed that they would have a new process. MR. G. DUCHARME: Because the tenure is throughout the school divisions. HON. J. STORIE: That's right, interdivisional. MR. C.

BIRT: The Minister had indicated I believe in this 19 86 year, of some 270 to 285 people taking retirement, 17 0 to 18 0 are estimated to be taking advantage of the early retirement provision that was put into place. Is there any indication of what they can expect for the next year or two? I'm in formed that the Manitoba Teachers' Society has apparently been holding an extensive number of counsel ling courses for those people who are contemplating perhaps taking that option. Is there any guessti mate or estimate of what the numbers will be in, say, the next two, three, four years? HON. J. STORIE: Mr.

Chairperson, I had indicated to a question earlier that it was our expectation that the numbers who have early retired this year would be relatively the same over the next few years. There has been an expectancy that there will be a slight incr ease over the next few years. MR. C. BIRT: There's an indicated potential saving, I think, of some $2 million a year. In the hiring statistics, can the Minister show with some degree of certainty that, in fact, new employment has been created because of the early retirement of some 17 0 to 18 0?

Have the divisions actually been implementing this program of acquiring new, younger, cheaper people to fill these positions, or is it still just theory and there's no evidence to support that proposal? HON. J. STORIE: We have not done a definitive study, but the number of teachers in the province has been relatively stable, if not increasing marginally. Obvious ly, with a relatively stable student population, I would expect - I think it's quite clear - that there are relatively the same number of teachers. There has been no increase to my knowledge in teachers from out-of province.

That would lead one to conclude that the additional staffing required, because of retirements, comes from within. Given there's a relatively stable population of teachers, new blood obviously has to be brought into the system. MR. C. BIRT: Will the Minister be doing any studies to determ ine if in fact the proposal is working as far as creating employment for new teachers? Will they be monitoring it in any way, shape or form in the next two or three years? HON. J. STORIE: Yes, Mr. Chairperson. I think it's safe to say that situation will be monitored.

The Member for Aiel had raised an additional question that I think we would want to monitor over the next couple of years. MR. C. BIRT: If I understand it, under 2.(a), this is the payout figure for pensions, or is it the sum that's being put into the pension plan for the year? Which is it? HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairperson, that is the payout. MR. C. BIRT: it's incr eased some 19 percent, roughly $3.4 million. Is that almost exclusively tied into the large number taking early retirement? I think of the potential retirees, from the figures the Minister gave, it would be about two-thirds.

Wo uld the large increase be primarily because of the early retirement? HON. J. STORIE: Yes, Mr. Chai rperson, given that almost two-thirds of the retirees are. There are a number of other factors which determine the incr ease. There's generally an increase in the number of retirees, both those who have early retired and those who are retiring at 65. Their cost-of- living adjustments and adjustments to The Pension Benefits Act was the other factor. MR. C. BIRT: 2.(

b) refers to Other Statutory Boards and Commis sions. Could the Minister advise what boards and commissions are referred to in this area? HON. J. STORIE: We 're moving to 2.( b), Mr. Chairperson. 2164

Thursday, 24 July, 1986 MR. CHAIRMAN: I have another member wishing to speak. Perhaps we might finish on 2.(a) - the Mem ber for Roblin-Russell. MR. L. DERKA CH: To the Minister, teachers who retire early often go back to the work force in one shape, form or another. Are teachers who have retired allowed to do consulting work for divisions? HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairperson, there are no restrictions on the activities of retired teachers, as there are no restrictions on the activities of retired police officers or retired civil servants or retired executive officers from Great West Life or retired ML A's. MR. L.

DERKA CH: There are no restrictions then or there is no intention to restrict teachers who have retired from bec oming substitute teachers or getting on the list of substitute teachers that a division has. HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairperson, I have indicated that has not been a problem. We will be monitoring that situation although, as I've said, having some knowledge of the stress and the professional psychology of teachers who have been in the system for some time, it is unlikely that will become a problem. MR. L.

DERKA CH: Have ther e been any figur es compiled to indicate how many divisions are actually hiring on additional staff, or are divisions who have teachers that are retiring simply reducing the number of teachers within those divisions? HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairperson, I have indicated that the number of teachers within the province has been stable for the last few years. There have been small increases in the number of teachers.

The student population again has been stable for the last four or five years, which would lead me to conclude that there have been no reductions in staff as a direct result of early retirement certainly. From time to time obvious ly, depending on the movement of students and the enrolment projections, there may in fact be reductions in a given division. But they do not appear to be directly related to early retirement or retirement per se. MR. L.

DERKACH: With respect to the early retirement, is there any possibility that early retirement and payout can become a part of the negotiating contracts in the future with school divisions? HON. J. STORIE: Mr . Ch airpers on, if ther e are additional negotiations that go on between a school division and their collective bargaining associations, that would be up to them. As I'v e indicated, I'm not sure at this point, having not thought through all of the possibilities. there may not be some benefits to doing that, for a school division.

But that, of course, would depend on what kind of a payout there was and what kind of terms staff could negotiate, staff and their school boards would negotiate on that kind of an issue. MR. L. DERKA CH: Has there been any representation by MAST with respect to this particular area and the concern about it being a part of the negotiating contract? HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairman, I can indicate that, no, they have not raised that specific question. I can indicate that they are extremely satisfied with the early retirement provisions and the impact that it has had generally throughout the system.

At least that's my understanding. MR. L. DERKACH: I'm not sure whether this is the place to ask this question, Mr. Chairman, and I would ask your ruling on it, it has to do with the tenure, teacher tenure. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Minister seems to feel we could ask it here. MR. L. DERKACH: Have there been any problems encountered in reducing the teacher tenure from the two years to the one year? HON. J. STORIE: Not to my knowledge. MR. L.

DERKACH: Have there been any indications wher e young teachers who may be marginally competent, might I say, may in fact be released because there is a fear that once they are there for more than the one year, they will receive their tenure and it will be much harder to be relieved of their positions. HON. J. STORIE: To my knowledge, there have been no problems. Certainly none have been addressed to myself. I think that debate was carried forward when the changes were made to The Public Schools Act.

The point is that evaluation of teachers and the decision by a school board to release a teacher, particularly a beginning teacher, is one that is best made at the school division level, is best made through the evaluations of teachers and superintendents in the school division. To my knowledge, the changes have not unduly affected that process. lt has speeded it up, I suppose, but there have been no problems related directly to myself, and staff indicate that there does not appear to be a problem. MR. L. DERKACH: With respect to the 2.(

a) figure, $2 1 million, after 19 90, is the Minister saying that there will be an additional $1 million added to that specific figure? HON. J. STORIE: Yes, Mr. Chai rperson. As I' ve indicated, the costs post- 1990 would be approximately $1 million per year. MR. L. DERKACH: We've seen approximately what, a $3 million increase there this year. Is that in addition to this kind of incr ease that might be expected on a yearly basis? HON. J. STORIE: Mr.

Chairperson, I'v e indicated that the $3 million incr ease was not related specifically - not the sole factor which went into the incr ease - that there were cost-o f-living incr eases, increased costs due to The Pension Benefits Act changes and, of course, obviously because of the additional retirement, the hump, if you will, of early retirement. 2165

Thursday, 24 July, 1986 MR. L. DERKACH: Well, obviously th is could become , or may become, a very expensive area, in fact, if this kind of increase is to show up on an annual basis . Have there been any projections done? What will happen over the next two or three years, or the next five years in this area? HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairperson, I've answered that . This will be the third time now. The cost to the province, because of changes to TRAF, will amount to approximately $1 million per year post-1990 . Currently, they are costing the province nothing .

Currently, there is a benefit of approximately, I'm saying, in the neighbourhood of $2 million - that is only an estimate, obviously. In addition to that , the changes also benefited the province because the province was no longer obligate d to provide a revenue guarantee to the fund. That , in itself, has saved the province perhaps an additional $1 million, that's yet to be determined . I think the member's assumptions are faulty. This, in effect, will save, in all likelihood, save the system money and will provide a lot of other spinoff benefit s to the educationa l system. MR. L.

DERKACH: I think that's a hypothetical argument, Mr. Minister, because , in fact, that argument was being made when this particular bill was being debated. In one specific school division, I know that figure, the projected figure of savings, did not in fact occur , simply because everybody moves up the ladder - the school teacher who is retiring is, of course , at the high end of the scale , but not necessarily will divisions be hiring the teachers at the bottom end of the scale .

That maybe happens as an natural thing, but many times school divisions will advertise the position of a senior teacher, which will be filled by a retiring teacher, and which will be filled by a teacher who has experience, from anothe r division, who wishe s to find employment in this particular division. So that does not generally hold true, at least we haven't found that within the division that we 've had experience with teachers retiring . When you're talking about a $2 million figure, I think that's a very hypothetical figure and one that could be argued at both sides. HON. J.

STORIE: I've given the member an estimate only, it is an estimate, but I'd indicate that I would believe that very few schools divisions throughout the course of retirement, would not be hiring staff with much lower salary requirements than the retiring individual. I think that certainly most school divisions, I believe, would be looking at the potential for a salary savings in the event of retirements and , as I've said , not only that , bringing new staff into the division, a teaching mix . MR. L.

DERKACH: If we can get back to that figure of $21,484,000, is the Minister then saying that we should not see that kind of an increase in the next year's Estimates. HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairperson , that would depend on the number of retirees. However, I have indicated to the member - the member's question was what do we anticipate to be the additional cost to the province of the changes after 1990? I've indicated that will likely be $1 million . MR. L. DERKACH: What is the cost going to be from now until 1990 then? HON. J. STORIE: As a result of changes to TRAF, zero .

I should indicate that there is a cost to the fund and that cost is paid by the teachers. That was part of the negotiated settlement. MR. L. DERKACH: Can we have some more specif ic - I don 't know , perhaps I wasn 't listening that carefully, but can we have a more specific breakdown of this $3 million incre ase? HON. J. STORIE: The $2.4 million increase breaks down as follows , and I've indica ted that there were four different components which created the increase . There is an increase in the number of retiree s, and there is an additional full year cost for those who retired previously.

So that takes us into the previous retirement last year. That cost is some $2.1 million. There is a cost-of-living adjustment which amounts to some 595 ,000 .00. There are some additional costs because of The Pension Benefit Act changes, which amount to some $306 ,000.00 . There is a recovery from the Fund due to the contributions of teachers of some 629 ,000, leaving the $2.4 million additional amount for this fiscal year. MR. L. DERKACH: I'm just not clear on a few things here.

First of all, the full years cost of $2.1 million, is that a cost to the regular retirement of teachers or is that a cost to the early retirement teachers or both? HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairperson , that's both. MR. L. DERKACH: Will the Minister then tell us what portion of that cost is attributed to the teachers who took early retirement? HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairperson, the answer is 629 ,000.00. That was the share that the teachers contributed to the fund. MR. L. DERKACH: The cost of living was $595,000.00. Was that cost of living to the regular retired teachers or both? HON. J. STORIE: Both. MR. L.

DERKACH: What portion of that then is attributed to the teachers who retired early? HON. J. STORIE: I missed the member's question because I was asking - (Interjection) - well, Mr. Chairperson, a small fraction of that. That cost-of-living adjustment relates to the benefits that go to some 3,500 retired teachers. MR. L. DERKACH: Is a teacher who takes early retirement allowed to get benefits from Unemployment Insurance? 2166

Thursday, 24 July, 1986 HON. J. STORIE: I'm not sure, but I believe the Federal Government has changed the legislation with respect to the payment of UIC benefits on retirement, but that again would be a federal matter. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Ste. Rose. MR. G. CUMMINGS: Mr. Chairman, my question is on the pension plan also. When it was being proposed, there were a lot of figures bandied around, the same as the Minister has given us now. Are there records being kept of the qualifications of the - because the number is not large, I would think these figures are probably available.

So I would ask: do we know the qualifications of the teachers who are leaving on early retirement? HON. J. STORIE: No, Mr. Chairperson. The Teachers' Retirement Board does not keep those statistics. lt is concerned only with the retirement. But it seems to me we should be able to get those, and I will. As I'v e indicated to the Member for Riel previously, that is something that we could track, I think. MR. G. CUMMINGS: The reason I am interested in that figure, Mr.

Chairman, is that my experience is that the teachers who are leaving the system on early retirement, the majority of them are not the highly qualified, highly paid teachers. They are, in fact, the teachers who didn't qualify themselves highly during their career, and have come to a stage in life where they're prepared to take early retirement. Yet, they will be replaced by a Class 4 teacher minimum coming out of the system. That in fact will put the ki bosh on the fact that there would be savings to the province. HON. J.

STORIE: I wouldn't dispute the member's assumptions that there may be currently a large number - I don't know whether it's a majority - but there may be a large number of teachers retiring with less than Cla ss 4, which obviously there's a tr emendous difference currently in most colle ctive agreements between the payment that goes to Class 3 and Class 4. But I think, recog nizing that there is no cost to the province until 19 90, we've seen over the last few years a con tinuin g impro vement in the qualificat ions of teachers.

In other words, we have plus 85 percent that are now Class 4, and an increasing number that have Class 5 and Class 6, Class 7. So what we're going to see is the increasing likelihood of more savings in the future, as the discrepancy between starting salaries and finishing salaries inc reases. The member, I think, may have a point in terms of many of the teachers who are retiring currently or some of them certai nly would not necessarily be Class 4. MR. G. CUMMINGS: I guess my point, Mr. Chairman, was that we are making assumptions that have not been necessarily proven yet. MR. G.

DUCHARME: Just along the same line to get back into the mention of the costs and the costs later on of the ones re-entering the work force or the ones who are leaving, when you do your study, will the Minister try to do a study from division to division on who's coming in, when these early retirements are leaving, not the ones who are retiring at the regular but the early retirements, so we do have those costs? Maybe we might find that the cost scale that we've set up, maybe there has to be some renegotiating down the road , either for the better or for the worse.

I think that's what the members are mainly worried about, is that there are those problems of not knowing what's going to happen. If those figures are provided over the next couple of years from the different school divisions, that would probably answer a great many of the concerns that were expressed by the members here on the original bill. HON. J. STORIE: I think that's certainly a possibility. I would just add to my remarks to the Member for Ste.

Rose that, recognizing that someone on scale Class 1 would also be receiving a very substantially lower pens ion, that the costs to the pension fund are significantly lower than the Class 4, 5 or 6. So there's a balance in that as well in terms of the cost. I point out, in reference to the Member for Riel's question, that the benefits are not a question of simply the dollar. I believe that one can make a pretty fair safe assumption that there are benefits, dollar benefits, to the educational system, not necessarily directly to the province but divisions, in the amendments that were brought in in 19 85.

But I wouldn't want to discount the benefits to the educational system of the involvement of new teaching staff in our system, whether it's new to the division or people coming in as recent graduates of the Faculty of Education. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2.(a) - the Member for River Heights. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: In his first answer, the Minister said, and I don't think he meant it in the way it came out, but he implied that the young teachers coming in would have up-to-date pedagogical skills. I would like to make it clear that I think current teachers also have up-to-date pedagogical skills. HON. J. STORIE: I stand corrected.

MR. CHAIRMAN: 2.(a) - the Member for Kirkfield Park. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Mr. Chairman, to the Minister: how often has the province had to put money into the pension fund under the former revenue guarantee? HON. J. STORIE: I understand, Mr. Chairperson, that the province has paid five or six times in the past because of the guarantee. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Wo uld it be possible to get when and how much money was paid in each time? HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairperson, I will certainly take that under advisement.

I would point out, in terms of the revenue guarantee, of course, that if something happened, like a major calamity on the investments, that the amounts of money could be substantial. So when the previous Minister referenced this guarantee as a "ticking time bomb," 2167

Thursday, 24 Ju ly, 1986 there is that potential without being overly melodramatic about it; it's a possibility. I'v e indicated here today that given the collapse of the Canadian Commercial Bank, there is a very good likelihood that had we not eliminated that guarantee, it could have cost the province $1 million or in that neighbourhood. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Yes, I just have a couple of questions on teacher tenure. If the first time a teacher is hired under - I believe there's a new contract 2(a) - and they are rehired after the first year, could they still be under probation? HON. J.

STORIE: Currently if they were rehired on a Form 2A, they would be on a Form 2A and subject to the conditions. I should indicate to the Member ... MRS. G. HAMMOND: I meant if they were then hired under Form 2. I'm sorry, I didn't make that clear. HON. J. STORIE: Oh yes. If they were hired under a 2A and subsequently hired under a 2, they would have due process. If they had a full year under 2A only; if their term of work under the 2A contract was six months, that would not be the case. Then they would be subject to the initial one-year probationary period. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Mr.

Chairman, is the Minister saying then that if they have a full year under the 2A, it would be considered the same as if it was under a 2 contract? HON. J. STORIE: Yes, Mr. Chairperson. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Is the department finding that any of the divisions are using the contra ct 2A to get around the probationary period, both for first-year teachers and for experienced teachers moving from one division to another? HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairperson, it's funny that the Member for Kirkfield Park should reference this issue.

I had lunch with the president of MAST and the executive director to discuss this issue. lt has been raised on a number of occasions, both with the previous Minister and myself, by the Manitoba Teachers' Society in particul ar, and although there is general agreement, I believe, amongst MAST members that the Form 2A contract has been working, there were a number of areas where clarification was required.

I believe, as a result of today's mee ting, that we have resolved essentially the outstanding issues and I understand that the president of MAST will be contacting his members sometime in September clarifying, I think, the very positive aspects of the 2A Form. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Could the Minister indicate what needed to be clarified? HON. J. STORIE: I'm sorry, I missed the question. MR. CHAIRMAN: What needed to be clarified . . . MRS. G. HAMMOND: I'm sorry. I wonder if the Minister could indicate what needed to be clarified. HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairperson, essentially two issues.

No. 1, I guess was the requirement that a 2A Form be used after a period of 20 days of substitute teaching. There was some concern about that number and I think there's agreement that, although it's not satisfactory to everybody, it is a fair and reasonable resolution of the matter, that after a 20-day period, Form 2A would then be required. The other issue was the question of whether or not an individual who was hired on a Form 2A for the specific purpose of someone on leave, would then be requir ed to renew on a Form 2A. I think that we resolved that's probably the best way to go. Mr.

Chairperson, the question was raised by the Member for Kirkfield Park about the cost. There was a period of five years, from 19 70-74, in which the guarantee cost the province some $3.7 million. In today's dollars, that would be more like 10. There are five separate years. That's the total over the five years, 3.7 million. MR. L. DERKACH: On several occasions now, the Minister has indicated that early teacher retirement is going to be a benefit to the education system per se.

I would like to suggest that our questions on this side do not, in any way, try to take away from that aspect and we're not disputing the fact about the quality of education improving at all. All we're trying to ascertain is that this is going to become and is bec oming a very expensive area for the taxpayers and for the province.

I would st ill lik e to come back to this Teachers' Retirement Allowance Fund and get some kind of an idea from the Minister what his projections are for incr eases in this particular fund that are going to be the province's responsibility for the next few years, be it three or five years. HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairperson, just on the first part of the member's statement, I recognize that some members in the Conservative Party do support and did support the amendments that were brought in in 19 85 that was not unanimous.

Secondly, in his comments he refers to the fact of the cost and I'v e indicated that while there is a cost to the province, I believe there stands to be substantial benefits to the school divisions in terms of their costs. I've indicated that the revenue guarantees so that, in effect, if you look at the benefits in financial terms, that there may be greater financial benefits in what has been done than if nothing had been done. MR. L. DERKACH: Well, I still haven't gotten any indication from the Minister as to what his projections might be for the next five years. HON. J. STORIE: Mr.

Chairperson, the projections are based on the number of people that retire; the number of people that take early retirement. If the member is referring to the changes that come about as a result of the amendments brought into TRAF in 1985, that would amount to approximately $1 million a year I'm told. Over five years would be some $5 million. There are some other benefits. There are some other changes that would provide additional costs and those relate to The Pension Benefits Act. 2168

Th ursday, 24 July, 1986 MR. L. DERKACH: The Minister still hasn't answered the question. I'm asking the Minister what projection he has for the line 2.(

a) for the next three to five years? MR. CHAIRMAN: I might point out, under the rules to the member, there is no obligation on the Minister in question period ... I'm going to let you answer. The member is being insistent I'm saying that there is no obligation on the Minister any more than there is in question period. You know, one should not assume there is an obligation - the Minister of Education. HON. J. STORIE: Mr.

Chairperson, I just want to be clear that, over the next five years, it is antici pated that the costs will incr ease in total some - total cost of amendments during the first five years; okay, I've got the right column - $4.8 million which is roughly $1 million a year. I have indicated that till 1990, the actual costs to the province will be obviously somewhat less than that because the enhanced early retirement, which will be paid by the fund - in other words, the teachers - amounts to $3.3 million of that. So I don't know how to reph rase it any differently. I don't know what the member is looking for.

Do you want me to give you a year-by-year on that? I can give the member a year-by-year if he would like. The costs to comply with The Pension Benefits Act are for 19 86-87, $486,000 - I believe I have given that figure - that will be $8 1 8,000 in 19 87-88; $1. 2 million in 19 88- 89; and 1. 4 million in 19 89-90, for a total of 4.1 million - that's from 19 85, I should add - there is $1 97,000 in 19 85.

The amendments which provide more equitable treatment of part-time teachers, which was part of the amendments that were introduced in 19 85 that runs from 46,000 in 19 85-86; to 121 in '86-87; to 15 0 in '87-88; to 18 0 in '88-89; to 212 in '89-90 - for a total of 709. If you add those together, you have a total cost of the amendments of 4.8 million and the enhanced early retirement to be paid by the fund is a total of 3.3 million. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2.(a)- pass. 2.(b) - the Member for Fort Garry. MR. C. BIRT: Could the Minister advise what statutory boards and commissions fall under in this particular line? HON. J.

STORIE: Yes, Mr. Chairperson, there are six separate boards under this sub-appropriation: A Board of Reference, the Education Advisory Board, Col lective Agreement Board, Arbitration and Conciliation Board, Certificate Review Commi ttee and Langua ges of Instruction Advisory Committee. MR. C. BIRT: Is it mostly departmental staff on these boards and therefore the costs are just part of the payroll in their appropriate position and this just merely refers to administrative costs for the operation of these five boards? HON. J. STORIE: Mr.

Chairperson, no there is a mix of representatives from government departments and private ind ividuals. As an examp le, the Board of Reference is chaired by Mr. George Sch reyer. The mem bers of the board are Lilly Wiklund, Eleanor Schellenberg and Russell Newton; the secretary to the board is Mr. Charles Bridle. The member is correct that the amount of money that is shown in 2.(

b) references the costs of operating all of those boards. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2.(b) - the Member for Ste. Rose. MR. G. CUMM INGS: One question regarding the Board of Reference. Can the departmental people tell me if there has been an ongoing number of requests or petitions to the Board of Reference this immediate past year? HON. J. STORIE: Yes, Mr. Chair person, interestingly enough, the number of references to the Board of Reference actually has decreased from 1984 where there was 12 to 5 in 1985. MR. G. CUMMINGS: I guess I'm pleased to hear that.

I'm wondering, however, if that's not a result of the fact that no one ever seems to be very completely satisfied after having gone to the Board of Reference. I guess I'm seeking an opinion from the department - if there is any work being done on redrawing of the division boundaries in the province? HON. J. STORIE: No, Mr. Chairperson, there is not. MR. L. DER KACH: With respect to division boundaries, does the Minister and his department initiate changes in boundaries or does that have to come from the local people or the local divisions? HON. J.

STORIE: lt has not been the practice of the department to initiate changes. MR. L. DERK ACH: Does the Minis ter and his department not think it's time that some of the divisions, because of declining enrolments and especially in the rural areas, does he not perceive this as high time to start looking at division boundaries and to perhaps look at changes so that divisions can become more efficient and more effect ive in carrying out programs and also reduce perhaps some of the costs of transporting students? HON. J.

STORIE: Well, I would like to be remembered for many things, but starting this kind of war is not one of them. MR. L. DER KACH: All the Minister is telling me is he ha sn't got the courage to init iate ch anges where necessary and this is typical of the kind of attitude this Minister is going to create with problems that might surface. I'm wondering why he's sitting in the position he is.

Now, it disturbs me a little bit to find out that there are many divisions in this province, especially rural divisions, who have raised with the former Minister the fact that boundaries should be looked at and should be changed. Here we have a new Minister saying: well, I'd like to be remembered for a lot of things, but one of them is not starting this kind of a war. 2169

Thursday, 24 July, 19 86 HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chai rperson, I understand the member's attitude is somewhat anti-democratic. The school divisions . . MR. L. DERKA CH: Oh, point of order , Mr. Chairman. HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chai rperson, I have ... MR. CHAIRMAN: We have a point of order. A point of order takes precedence. MR. L. DERKA CH: I object to that kind of statement from the Minister and I wish that he would withdraw it. MR. CHAIRMAN: I would sugg est that the hyperbole from both the member and the Minister be under control.

The member suggested that the Minister was without courage, which I consider unparliamentary and let pass. In the course of the debate, I would suggest th at both the mem ber and the Min ister rest rain themselves and stick to the subject matter at hand. The Minister of Educa tion. HON. J. STORJE: Mr. Chairperson, the member knows full well that, if a school division - and the member referenced that school divisions had come forward making those suggestions.

If there is a serious request on the part of a school division to make a change in boundary or if two school divisions decide that a change in a boundary is appropriate - in fact, a school division has come forward, and suggested that a school division should be divided to create two school divisions. I remind the member that school divisions were not created simply as a means of efficien cy. They were created, because of certain geographical contingencies. They were created, because of the desire of local people to have some control over their own affairs.

When anyone is considering changing those boundaries, you are in effect taking a right away from people to determine their own future with respect to education. Most people, Mr. Chairperson, take that right very seriously, and would regard it as interference in the extreme for the Provincial Government to unilaterally, which the member is suggesting we do as a matter of leadership in his words, is I think shocking. MR. L. DERKACH: The Minister is certai nly not listening to what I said, because I asked him whether they would consider taking a look at boundaries in this province.

That's the whole essence of the thing. Nobody's suggesting that you do it on a unilateral basis at all. HON. J. STORIE: You exactly said it was leadership planning. MR. L. DERKA CH: I know that there was a request to the former Minister of Education to take a look at a boundary of a specific school division, and the response at that time was that it was not on that Minister's plate. Her plate was full at the time, and she wasn't going to consider it at the time.

All I'm asking is whether this Minister is going to undertake and show some leadership and look at the bounda ries of school divisions, and perhaps commun icate with school divisions as to whether it is time to look at changing some of the boundaries of the school divisions. HON. J. STORIE: lt seems to me the member is rephrasing his initial request. I certainly have indicated that the board of reference has in the past and will in the future look at requests for changes of boundary.

The larger question of whether it is time for a major review of boundaries with the involvement - and I emphasize "with the involvement" - of organizations such as MAST, then that's something that can be considered. But I certainly have no intentions of doing that unilaterally. MR. G. CUMMINGS: One of the reasons that I understand the Board of Revision, in adjusting boundaries or not adjusting boundaries, has indicated is that school divisions were also originally set up as a financial area from which funds could be drawn.

I think there are implications in this that go beyond simply holding to hallowed boundaries, because the ability to finance divisions is, first of all, related to the funding that comes from the province but, second ly, special levy in the local divisions is getting very badly out of whack across the province. Some divisions are considerably at a higher level than others.

I think my colleague from Roblin-Russell and myself are raising this in all sinc erity as part of the problem that the department may very well be facing on several fronts which is going to, in the long run, probably affect divisional boundaries. Because we have some school divisions where the local levy has reached a level that is probably on the verge of creating a tax revolt, if nothing else.

I would think that the Minister would do well to consider what we're saying, not as an attack on him, but as a true concern of some rural school divisions where, of course, they are concerned about whether or not they would have their division disappear. There's a pride and a history that is attached to some of these divisions, but there are situations out there that I believe will require some investigation and possibly some study, starting very soon. HON. J. STORIE: I appreciate the member's remarks.

I would indicate two things: No. 1, I'm not sure that the way to address that problem is by changing the boundaries of school divisions. lt may in fact, in some areas, provide some efficiencies. I indicate, however, that I believe fundamentally in the right of people in an area to be able to define their own educational goals.

I believe that the process we have in place allows people a democratic choice to choose their school board representatives and function in what they see as the best interests of the people in a given area, and that bigger , in th at respect, isn' t always better , particularly in the sense of how people feel that they control and have some involvement in the system. So that's one of the reasons I'm reluctant. On the second point the member makes, I point out that one of the ways in which the problem the member raises can be addressed is through equalization.

In fact, equalization has incr eased from about 23 million to 63 million in the last three years. So people can still 2170

Thursday, 24 July, 1986 maintain control, but the financial problems that the member raises, can be addressed in another way. MR. G. CUMMINGS: I guess I didn't set out to get into a philosophical argument with the Minister, but I resent the implication that we are saying that people should have their democratic rights taken away through boundary changes. We've got people right now who consider they're on the wrong side of the boundary, and their requests are denied because of the financial implications it would have to the home division. That is merely the concern that I'm trying to put forward.

I have no intention of taking away anybody's democratic rights. In fact, if it's anybody who holds democratic rights very dear, it's those of us on this side of the table. HON. J. STORIE: lt seems that we both hold democratic rights near and dear. MR. L.

DERKACH: Just a comment again with respect to boundary changes, one of the reasons that I think school divisions have asked for boundary changes or have indicated that maybe it's time to look at boundary changes is the fact that some childr en have to tr avel vast numbers of miles to a school, whereby there are schools that are much closer in a neighbouring division which could serve the needs of those children. Because of small schools having been closed in the last number of years, this has caused children to start leaving home at seven in the morning or quarter after seven in the morning.

This is the primary reason probably that some of the parents are saying, isn't it time that we started looking at changing our boundaries of our divisions because, in rural areas, populations are beco ming sparser. That was my only intention for asking the Minister to undertake to at least approach this topic with school divisions throughout the province. HON. J. STORIE: I appreciate that clarifica tion. I think the short answer to that is that of course the Board of Reference has, over the recent past, reviewed those kinds of issues when they have been raised.

I grew up in a school division in which the boundary changed several times, and people were transported first to one division and then anot her. Part of it was for the reasons that the member raised. I would indicate that certain ly, if those kinds of issues are raised, the Board of Reference has the authority and has, from time to time, made those adjustments to suit the wishes of the parents and provide some rationality to the system. MR. G.

CUMMINGS: I guess the bottom line becomes that, when the Board of Reference feels unable to make a decision because they know they would be taking special levy funds away from a have-not school division, if you will, if they transferred properly into another division at the request of the parents, they have denied these requests, in my opinion, because of the financial concerns that we are expressing. I freely admit that it would be a very volatile topic. However, I think it also is a part of the overall concern that we have to have for the educational system in the province. HON. J. STORIE: Mr.

Chairperson, I do know that the issue the member raises is a factor on some occa sions. 2171 I would point out again that the resolution, particularly for the concern that individual school boards have about the possibility of losing a large portion of their special levy or whatever, that the issue of equalization, the movement away from the reliance on property tax and the possibility of moving from 80 percent to 90 percent funding would resolve a lot of those issues or some of them. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2.(b)- pass.

Resolution No. 47: Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceed ing $2 1, 5 14 ,200 for Educa tion, Statutory Boards and Commissions, for the fiscal year ending the 31 st day of March, 1987- pass. lt is my understanding the committee wishes to move to Item 8. at this point. Is that correct? Item 8., Page 56, Expenditures Related to Capital - the Member for Ste. Rose. MR. G. CUMM INGS: Regarding the commun it y colleges, can the Minister explain what is included under Acquisition /Construction of Physical Assets?

Are there also funds included in there that can be used to maintain or remodel certain parts of these facilities? HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chai rperson, essentially the Acquisition/C onstruction is for purcha se of equipment in the case of the community colleges. MR. G. CUMMINGS: I'm sorry, I only got part of the Minister's answer. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Minister said the allocation is for purchase of equipment for the community col leges. MR. G. CUMMINGS: Is there any further breakdown that he can give us at this stage? Wo uld that explain the numbers varying the way they have? Does this go into shop equipment?

Are there instructional aids included also, or does that come under separate funding? HON. J. STORIE: The explanation is that it's major pieces of equipment over $250 in value. The member is quite correct in that there are simply fewer purchases in this current fiscal year. MR. G. CUMMINGS: lt also includes under the heading Construction of Physical Assets. Is this granted to the colleges on the basis of application or on a formula? I guess my experience is more with the public school system where formulas and needs are shown. How are the community colleges eligible for these funds?

What process to they go through? HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairperson, they bring specific requests, project requests forward. They are priorized, and some are approved and some aren't for the current fiscal year. That is done internally within the department. MR. G. CUMMINGS: Could the staff indicate what percentage of the funds that were applied for were granted? HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairperson, the allocation is determined for the community colleges in this particular

Thursday, 24 July, 19 86 area of the budget, and the community colleges priorize within that allocation. So the priorizing is actually done within the community college, in conjunction with the department and also in collaboration with the advisory boards within the community college. MR. G. CUMMINGS: Does that mean that they would know ahead of time what their possible allocation might be, and they're requir ed to priorize within that figure? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Minister of Education is nodding. HON. J. STORIE: Mr.

Chairp erson, essentially that is it, unless there are additional urgent requests or emergencies or whatever. MR. G. CUMMINGS: If the Minister would allow me for a minute, if we could deal with (1), (2), (3}, and (4) as a block, we could get No. 4 out of the road in terms of an explanation on the Canada-Manitoba Skills Fund. Is that a program that has been eliminated? HON. J. STORIE: Yes, Mr. Chair person. The Manitoba Skills Real Fund was a federally-sponsored project which concluded. The dollars that appear on the left hand side of the page were recov erable from Canada. MR. G.

CUMMINGS: That was a program that had a definite beginning and end? HON. J. STORIE: That's correct, Mr. Chairperson. MR. G. CUMMINGS: Can the Minister indicate on the - Keewatin has a considerably smaller sum of funds, as related to Assiniboine and Red River. Is that also relevant to the enrolment? HON. J. STORIE: No, not directly, Mr. Chairperson, not over a short time period. MR. G. CUMMINGS: Then my question would be: why is it that much less? Was there less application from them, or were they reduced in some way? HON. J. STORIE: Mr.

Chairperson, it very much reflects the individual needs, the need for expensive pieces of equipment. lt's not clear here whether in fact, in previous years, it was the reverse. lt depends on the needs of the community colle ges at the time, and obviously to some extent on the ability to fund. MR. G. CUMMINGS: If any of these institutions were wanting to expand their physical plant, that would be funds over and above. HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chair person, that would be construc tion, and that would appear through the Department of Government Services. MR. G. CUMMINGS: I'm finished in that area. MR. L.

DERKA CH: With respect to the community col leges, can the Min ister tell us, at Keewat in Community College, what the enrolment there is as compa red to the other two colleges? Are they fully booked in terms of the enrolment there? HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairperson, I understand that virtually all of them are at capaci ty. Keewatin currently at the moment is down to about 90 percent, but they are virtually at capacity across the board. MR. L. DERKA CH: What kinds of capital - is this for the equipment and replacement of equipment that these monies are allocated? MR.

CHAIRMAN: I think that question was answered, yes. HON. J. STORIE: Yes, Mr. Chair person. MR. L. DERKA CH: In terms of Red River Communi ty College, there's been a significant drop there. Have there been any programs dropped at Red River or at any of these colleges which would not require some equipment and that sort of thing? HON. J. STORIE: Not directly. I think the only course that has been changed was the Photography course. Mr. Chairperson, most of it would reflect simply lower level priorities for this current year. MR. L.

DE RKA CH: By red ucing the amount of expenditures on capital, for example, for Red River, will that in fact have a negative effect in future years because there will be greater demand for equip ment that has had to run longer than it should? HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairperson, I point out that it's not only for the replacement of, but purcha se of new additional equipment. MR. L. DERKACH: Well, the same thing. Will there be more demand say, in the next fiscal year, because of the fact that we didn't live up to the needs this year? HON. J.

STORIE: I don't think that would necessarily be reflected in the budget. lt would depend on the demand and the length of time that a piece of equipment lasts and so forth. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Brandon West. MR. J. McCRAE: Mr. Chairman, I'd like to ask the Min ister what the expen ditur es for Br andon's Assiniboine Commun ity College are, the $489,000.00. What are the capital expendit ures for? HON. J. STORIE: Perhaps the member missed the introduction. This is for the purchase of equipment essentially over $250.00. MR. CHAIRMAN: Does that answer the member's question? HON. J.

STORIE: I understand it could be anything from a front-end loader to a lathe. MR. J. McCRAE: In this sec tion, Mr. Chairman, do we also ask about the capital grants to universities and school divisions? 2172

Thursd ay, 24 July, 1986 MR. CHAIRMAN: When we get to

section (b), yes. The Member for Roblin-Russell. MR. L. DERKACH: When equipment is being replaced in any of these three areas, what is the way in which the department disposes of the equipment that is used up or is being replaced? What is the process there? HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairperson, I'm told that there are a variety of ways in which assets are disposed of. No. 1 is that they may be turned over to Government Services for Crown assets disposal in the normal course.

Some of the equipment, for example the front-end loader that is being used or a piece of equipment that is being used, would then be cannibalized, or it would become a working piece that students would work on. Other pieces of equipment, perhaps the outdated pieces of equipment, are actually sent from time to time to underdeveloped countries. MR. L. DERKA CH: Is any of this equipment disp osed of by means of a sale to private companies, individuals, that sort of thing? HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairperson, I'm informed that it has to go through Crown assets.

The Department of Government Services has a sale of Crown assets from time to time. lt would normally go through that process. MR. L. DERKACH: Is the college, for example, in Brandon, the Assiniboine Communi ty College, allowed to keep any of the equipment that may in fact have depreciated out or have been replaced ? Are they allowed to keep any of it as an extra piece of equipment or as a spare or as equipment that they can dispose of if they want to at some later date? HON. J. STORIE: Mr.

Chairperson, yes, they in fact can keep it for other pu rposes, for example I' ve indicated, to cannibalize for used parts or for training purposes, but they cannot dispose of it on their own. They are the ones who determine when the replacement or un der what conditions a replacement will be requested. But the piece of equipment, if it was going to be disposed of, would normally go to Government Services for disposal, if it was going to be sold to private individuals. MR. L.

DERKACH: One of the public percept ions, I guess, about some of the equipment that is being replaced and I guess is left at the colleges per se, is that it's just left in a place where it, you know, either weathers to the point where it's not usable anymore. There seems to be a perception in some areas that there is a considerable amount of waste, because of the fact that the equipment isn't taken away as soon as it's replaced or it doesn't seem to be used for any useful purpose. I'm wondering whether the department is aware of that kind of a perc eption, or whether it's ever come to the Minister's attention.

HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairperson, I can indicate that has not been brought to my attention. I have had an opportun ity to visit all of the community colleges, meet with staff in some instances. But it's certainly not a matter of policy or, I believe, a matter of good practice if that is occurring. I would hope that, given that we have had to struggle to maintain and enhance the funding of community colleges, those kinds of practices would not be occu rring. MR. L.

DERKACH: In instances where equipment is being replaced and there isn't any specific use for it by the college or by anyone in Government Services immediately, what would be wrong with offering that equipment for sale and getting the funds back into the department? HON. J. STORIE: Well, Mr. Chairperson, given that the funding for the colle ges comes from general revenues, it actually does because it's sold by Government Services, and the money comes back to general revenue. So that is in effect happening. lt is not done by the community college. The selling is done by Government Services.

In a roundabout way, it does end up back in supporting community colleges. MR. G. CUMMINGS: One last area that I would like a little bit further explanation on, in the area of financing capital assets for the colleges, it seemed to me that the Minister said that - in my question, I indicated is there a budget set and then people fall within it, or is there an application made. First of all, if there's a budget set, what criteria is used for setting it? Is it based on the need of the college, or is it based on the student population? The reason I ask the question, Mr.

Minister, is I got the impression that this is almost an open-ended type of funding, and that sounds pretty good if it is. HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairperson, it certainly isn't open-ended. Obviously, the allocation of funds was based upon a com bination of historical need, replacement, etc., of equipment, and on the unusual or additional requests that come through. I think that, if we had a look over the last 10 years, you would find a pretty consis tent level of funding for these kinds of purchases. The member is correct.

If there are additional courses, as the college change s its orienta tion, there are additional needs. Current ly, with the coming on stream of the Manufacturing Tech nology Training Centre, there are going to be additional needs. You will see those probably next year as we staff up, and those will be, in a sense, what are called hump costs in the Acquisition and Construction budget. MR. G. CUMMINGS: There are other questions relating to programming, but I presume that the Minister would sooner they came under other parts of the Estimates. Do you have the appropriate staff to answer some now? MR.

CHAIRMAN: If you'r e sugges ting under the Community Colleges , we will be getting to that next, I understand, by agreement. HON. J. STORIE: We can go back to that then. MR. CHAIRMAN: We 're not going to be too rigid here. MR. G. CUMMINGS: I guess my question was related to the programming, the demand for programs, and 2173

Thursday, 24 July, 1986 what the waiting lists are at the community college level right now. HON. J. STORIE: I understand there are substantial waiting lists in some of the areas, but certainly not all. For a lot of different reasons, some are more popular at certain times and over certain periods than others. So there are some where there are pretty extensive waiting lists. The community colle ges deal with those, I guess, in a variety of ways. We're cer tainly trying to improve that. We're doing that through a number, I suppose, of initiatives.

One is the movement from rigid entry points for different courses to a more flexible entry point that allows us to obviously utilize the equipment and staffing somewhat more appropriately. MR. G. CUMMINGS: I think I should wait with any questions in that area. I appreciate the Minister's flexibility, but it would also be unfair of me to be jumping all over the place. MR. CHAIRMAN: 8.(a)(1) - pass; 8.(a)(2)-p ass; 8.(a)(3)- pass; 8.(a)(4)-pass. We are now on Item 8. (

b) Capital Gr ants: ( 1) Universities - the Member for Brandon West . MR. J. McCRAE: Mr. Chairman, how much of the Capital Grants to universities this year goes to each of th e univ ersities under the ju risdiction of the department? HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairperson, the member is referring to the mis cellaneous capital? MR. CHAIRMAN: He wants to know the allocation py university. Is that correct? The Member for Brandon We st, the correct question is that you want to know the allocations for Item 8.(b)(1) by university? MR. J. McCRAE: Yes, if that's available. HON. J.

STORIE: We have 19 85-86; we're getting 1986- 87. Mr. Chairperson, could we continue with another question? They're still looking for it. MR. J. McCRAE: I guess, Mr. Chairman, specifically on 8.(b)(2), School Division, I understand there's to be a new school built in Brandon. Is that for this fiscal year? HON. J. STORIE: Yes, Mr. Chairperson. There is a school planned for this year in Kirkcaldy Heights. MR. J. McCRAE: Is there not also planned an addition or an extension to the King George School for this fiscal year? HON. J. STORIE: Yes, Mr.

Chairperson, there is a replacement, I understand, for Earl Haig, which was the junior high I believe. MR. J. McCRAE: That's really all I had, Mr. Chairman, except for the Capital Grants to the universities. HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairperson, the miscellaneous capital is allo cated as follows: 2. 7 million to the University of Manitoba; 634,000 to the University of Winnipeg; 415 ,000 to the University of Brandon; and 17 7,000 to the College Universitaire de St. Boniface. MR. J. McCRAE: Can the Minister tell me what projects are planned for th e $4 1 5,000 for the Brandon University? HON. J. STORIE: Mr.

Chai rperson, that grant is miscellaneous capital. lt would be distributed from bricks and mortar to paint, upgrading throughout the university , I unde rstand, as well as infrastructure equipment, heating plants, things like that. MR. J. McCRAE: Mr. Chairman, I understood that there was to be an extension to the library at Brandon University. When will we see that? HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairperson, I noted a degree of cynicism in that last question. MR. J. McCRAE: lt's a simple question, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: lt will not read that way in Hansard. HON. J. STORIE: Mr.

Chair person, as the member kno ws, a promis e made is a promis e kept - (Interjection) - oh, slogans already, right? I can indicate that some $200,000 has been set aside for the architectural plans for the drawings for the new library and the plans will be proceed ing. MR. J. McCRAE: Will they be proceed ing this fiscal year, Mr. Chairman? HON. J. STORIE: Yes, Mr. Chair person, the plans will be procee ding this year. MR. J. McCRAE: Mr. Chairman, the Minister sounded interesting and a little bit cute again when he said that a promise made is a promise kept.

This is a promise that's been made for years and years and years - elections and elections and elections. So I'm very pleased to hear that the $200,000 for architectural plans is being spent this year. Does that mean that in the next fiscal year the actual construction of the library extension will begin? HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairperson, that would of course depend on how the planning proceeds, but I can indicate that, to my knowledge at least, this is the first time a firm commitment has been made, was made, although I recognize the discussions have gone on for some time.

I gather there have been priorities and those change from time to time within the univ ersity community itself. MR. J. McCRAE: Mr. Chairman, it comes down to a definition of what a firm commitment is I guess. That's all I have on this. MR. C. BIRT: If the library was to proceed, as the Member for Brandon West had referred to, and I think 2174

Thursday, 24 July, 19 86 your cost of the press release was 4.4 million, and if it was to proceed next year, would we show an incr ease of some 4 million in it in the (b)(1) category? lt was 4 million last year, it's 4.4 this year. Wo uld it then jump say to 8 million? MR. CHAIRMAN: Maybe I can clarify. My understanding is that Capital Construction comes under Government Services and it will show up there. This is, as I think the Minister explained earlier, equipment, supplies and things of that nature. HON. J. STORIE: No. The member is quite right.

Next year, any additional funds that would be for construction would appear in that designation, at least that's my understanding, recognizing that what I have indicated is that some $200,000 have been set aside for the planning, that it would be the previous fiscal year. Whether that amount would all flow in that fiscal year is another question. Quite often projects are staged over a number of years. So that would depend very much on what was possible, I suppose. MR. CHAIRMAN: I stand corrected. HON. J. STORIE: He stands corrected. MR. C.

BIRT: I'm sorry, if the Minister explained this while I was out of the room, but is there a formula then for granting capital grants on an annual basis? Is it a percentage of the total? How do you arrive at 4 million one year and 4.4 the next? HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairperson, I understand that the miscellaneous capital grants are provided essentially on the basis of square footage of buildings, etc., but there is some flexibility depending on emergency needs, specifically identified needs, so that you will see some flexibility, some variance.

That miscellaneous capital also can apply to major pieces of equipment as well. MR. C. BIRT: Mr. Chairman, there are two areas that I want to get at. The one is the purchase or replacement of equipment, and the other one is dealing with the preservation or repair of the plant. Now is the Minister saying when it relates to the plant, there is a certain formula set out based on the square footage? Under normal circumstances, you would use it as depreciation or a depreciation allowance in a business or under normal financial circu mstances.

Is this to represent a depreciation allowance that has been set up and is given to them f

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Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	33-1-53a
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	33rd 1st hansardpdf 53a.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	a33e6260db482cd458d4096c0bdd377dc8a419af

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