Volume 3 PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND THIRTY-SIXTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND 3rd. Session VERBATIM REPORT WEDNESDAY, DECEMBER 11, 1974 SPEAKER: THE HONOURABLE JAMES M. RUSSELL Number 87

December 11, 1974 The House met at 3:00 P.N. '.·Ir. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Tape 2039 IB-1 Before we begin today's proceedings, I would like to welcome the Springdale To~m Council to the galleries with Mayor George Huxter, Deputy Mayor Reverend Ray Brett, town manager Wilson Weir, Councillors Ford Ralph, Ray Whalen, George Warren and Calvin Clark. On behalf of all members of the legislature, I welcome you to the galleries today. STATEMENTS BY MINISTERS: HON. B. PECKFORD (HIHISTER OF MUNICIPAL AFFAIRS AfID HOUSING): l!r.

Speaker, in light of the various questions that have been asked me in the last week or two regarding housing in the province and in St. John's in particular, I thought it appropriate if I should make a ministerial statement at this time regarding housing in general in the province. I have asked the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation to report to me on recent progress in housing, particularly for low income groups and in the acquisition and development of land for residential housing. Recent progress has indeed been remarkable. First of all let me relate the subsidized rental units situation.

Despite escalating costs, in the last eighteen months 571 new subsidized rental housinr, units have been started, 120 units have been completed and 451 are under construction. Of these eighty-seven were completed in St. John's and 261 are under contract. Another thirty units will be made available on a leased basis from entrepreneurs-building under a special scheme. In other places in the province, thirty-three units were completed and 160 are under construction. CMHC is the project manar,er for the St.

John's units which are cost shared on a seventy-five, twenty­ five federal, provincial basis while Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation is the project manager for the other units with financing by way of a ninety per cent loan from CMHC. It is worthy of note that in this period the 571 units in hand represents a one third increase in the supply of subsidized rental housing, 1,498 having been built in all the previous years since Confederation. The corporation as well requested CMHC to enter into a partnership 7950

December 11. 1974 Tape 2039 IB-2 with them for the construction of 3')0 additional units for St. John's to be provided as soon as possible. As soon as this project is agreed, additional units will follow as fast as the trade can produce them. As in the case of St. John's, in other areas of the province such as Corner Brook, we are seeking the provision of additional subsidized rental units as quickly as responses by the building industry will permit. I regret that we have succeeded in getting only sixteen units under way in Corner Brook. Despite our best efforts, the bids received for additional units were unaccentably high. In

summary, the province through the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation and its affiliated bodies, the St. John's Housing Authority and the Corner Brook Housing Corporation, has approximately l.<1(10 units of housing under management for low income families in the form of subsidized rental housing and homes for the needy. In the field of other rental housing, the activities of the corporation include management of some 1,200 rental units throughout the province, mainly in support of industry and for government staffing purposes. Of these there are 558 units at Stephenville where the corporation has established a new office, In

summary the corporation and it affiliates manage some 3,100 rental units throughout the province. The small loans programme - under a lending programme begun by the corporation in 1971 with provincial financing, mortgage loans for home mmership in small corrnnunities and rural areas were made available. In that service to the home Olmers, assisting with land title problems and project organization is given. Under the first programme, 784 units were built 7951

llecemher 11, l'l74 TaJle 2040 PK - 1 under a new Jlrogramme which was negotiated with the federal government sharing seventy-five per cent of the financing. The corporation has to date COllD!litted 540 loans and will make 700 by the end of the current fiscal year. The loans are now aR hiv.h ~R $17,718 a unit

whereas the earlier programme allowed loans of $6,000 then $9,00~, latterly $15,000 a unit. This has been a tremendously received nrogramme and is doing a great deal both to improve standards of construction and to satisfy needs which would otherwise have had to be met by overcrowding and substandard housing. In the field of residential land development this leads them to the activities of the corporation servicing land for residential purposes.

In addition to lands which are now on sale or have been recently sold under this programme nearly 2,100 lots are in process of development at various locations throughout the province and plans arranging from preliminary design to ready for tender call are in hand for another 1,500 units. Thus in the field of serviced residential land the corporation is well under way in meeting the policy ofijective of lots being marketed on a timely and adequate basis. The total annual number of housing starts in the province since 1971 has consistently set new records.

In 1971 there were 3,658 starts; in 1972 there were 3,901 starts and in 1973, 4y831 starts. Looking at the statistics so far available for 1974, the total number of starts to the end of September 1973, were 3,985 compared to 3,848 in 1973, which is an increase of 3.6 per cent. Other statistics relating to the greater St. John's Area show 1,222 starts in 1971, 1,307 in 1972, 1,705 in 1973; by Septemher 30, 1974, starts in the St. John's Area were 5,119 cDll'.pared with 1,364 for the same period in 1973.

These levels of building have been achieved in this province while on the national scene there has been a down turn. I am l\nneful frnm nre.sent indicators that the starts in the province,overall,will equal or surpass the 1973 record ofi 4,831 units. 7952

December 11, 1974 Tape 2040 PK - 2 I have copies, Mr. Speaker, for the opposition and for the press. MR. S. A. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, when the minister rose in his place here to make a ministerial statement, we on this side of the House were expecting to hear some great announcements and to hear some announcements of some great reforms in the construction of houses in this province, especially, Sir, from the new minister responsible for housing but I am afraid, Mr. Speaker, that we have been let down very badly.

The minister, Sir, certainly did not paint a very optimistic outlook for the construction of houses in this province for the future. MR. W. W. MARSHALL: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, on ministerial statements "It is now recognized" I am quoting Beauchesne, "That the Leader of the Opposition or recognized groups are entilted to ask explanations and to make a few remarks but no debate is then entitled under any Standing Order." So the two points of order, number(

l) while there was a bit of laxity in orevious session because it was not quite sure as to whom the Leader of the Opposition was going to be, despite the honourable Member for Bell Island's attempt, he is not the Leader of the Opposition and thus I would contend not entitled to make cotmnents upon statements of ministers. The second point is, of course, the honourable member is going into the realm of debate and entering into the realm of debate not asking explanations or making a few remarks as such. MR. SPEAKER: The Hon. Leader of the Opposition. HON. E. M. ROBERTS (LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION): Mr.

Speaker, if I might say a word to that point of order, with reference to the first point first. The clear practice of this House has developed in recent years, and I think recent means the last two or three and certainly not before that, -is that ~he Leader of the Opposition or a spokesman from this side of the House, we do not have a one man show over here and my colleague, the gentleman for Bell Island - the honourable g~ntleman over there does not even have a quarter of a man's show. 795J

necember 11, 1974 AN HON. MEMBER: "1R. SPE.AKF.R: MR. ROBERTS: Taoe 2040 PK - 3 Inaudible. Order,, please! Mr. Speaker, as I was saying before the Member for St. John's Centre intruded himself into the debate, the gentleman for Bell Island was speaking for us on this side. The second point as to the substance of my colleag ue's remarks the rule or the precedent or the oracticP i;n t hi11 'Hc,nRe 111 that one is al101o1ed a few remarks 7954

December 11, 1974. Tape 2041 RH - 1 that cannot become debate and there is obviously a very fine line between what is debate and what is a few remarks. I submit that what my colleague was saying was entirely in the line of a few remarks. It would be nice to have an opportunity to debate the subject:and if the government would like to arrange to have a debate on the housinp situation in the Province we would welcome that. Jlut I submit that my colleague is entirely in order, first of all in rnakinR some remarks and then secondly, in the type of remarks he was makinp. MR.

MARSHALL: Further to that point of order, Mr. Sneaker. It is up to Your Honour, of course, to determine as to whether or not the member for Rell Island was enterinis into the realm of debate.

That is entirely as Your Honour interprets the p,eneral nature of the remarks that were made but the fact of the matter is that if for one or two years because there has been an awful lot of freedom cast on this House in the past couple of years, i.f because within the past two or three years the goverl11T'ent has permitted other members to speak on ministerial statements and not rise on a point of order that does Il'Ot mean that a custom is established. That does not mean that it is enp.rained in the rules.

The rules are clear and the rules are there for a verv good reason and I would submit that the honourable member for Bell Island - The only person on the other side wlio is able to speak or respond to a ministerial statement is the Lea~er of the Onposition or, and as far as the government is con­ cerned I am quite sure the honourable the member for Labrador South even though he does not represent a group as such, he is not a memcer of the official opposition. !ffi.. ROBERTS_;_Mr.

Speaker, if T may. since we are playing a game of tennis here: !·lhether or not one speaks in this 'louse is not by leave of the ~overnment, Mr. Speaker. This opposition want no privileges from the p,overnment. Pe expect only our rights and Your Honour has been quite zealous and Tam sure will he in enforcing the rights laid down by rules and by precedent. The rules govern that the precedent, Sir, interpret the rules. The practice in this House, I submit, was as I stated it to be. If the gentleman from Labrador South wishes to speak I for one would be 795;:;

Decemher 11, l.974. Tape 2041 RH - 2 happy to hear him at any time. If any honourable memher wishes to speak, fine, but my colleap,ue from Bell Island, I suhmit, has a right to he heard on this matter briefly without debate and his remarks relate to the matter of the ministerial statement. MR. SPEAKER: Well, as honourable members have stated, it has been a custom and sort of a concession granted to honourable members to my right that they are us11ally recognizecl in saying a few words to a ministerial statement. 1 certainly recognize the honourable nember for Rell Island havinp, that right.

I feel though that he was entering into a debate on the substance of the ministerial statement and if he continues in that way I will have to recognize another member. '·IJL NF.ARY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have no intentions of enterinl" into a debate with the honourable minister responsible for housing, Sir, but the minister did not make it clear, at least to me, Mr. Speaker, and perhaps the minister at some future date in the House might be able to clarify two or three qttestions that are at least troubling me,

(1) The minister made no mention of movinp, towards land hanking and subsidizin 6 the price of land which is the biggest contributing factor to the high cost of houses in this Province and the minister di<l not mention whether or not the p:overnrnent would subsidize interest rates. The minister, Mr. Speaker, perhaps at a later date could clarify whether or not the govern­ ment intends to put any more money into the St. John's !l.ousini:: Corporation. We were told s0r.1e time ago by Hr. O'Leary, the president of the corporation, that the housing corporation's plans were stifled hy lack of finances.

The minister did not clarify that. The minister did not clarify either, Mr. Speaker, whether the government were investigating the possibly of gettin? pension fund monies from trust companies and so forth, to finance housinp: in this Province. So all in all, Mr. Speaker, it seems to me that it is p,oing to be a long, long time before young people especially, in this Province are goinp, to he able to own their own homes. MR.

SPEAKER: Before we r.o on to ministerial statements, I have just been informed that we have, I think, in the gallery to mv rir.ht from Klienwort­ Benson, merchant bankers of London, Enp:land, a Mr. Peake and a !~r. Greene. 7950

necember 11, 197Lf. Tape 204 l RH - 3 nn behalf of all members of our legislature, I would like to welcome you to Newfoundland and to our lef'islature today. Are there any other ministerial statements? The honourable ~inister of Social Services. ?-Ill.. MURP!:lY: If 1 may 795/

,J December 11, 1974 Tape 2042 PK - 1 due to many inquiriC's with reference to the recent increase in social assistance benefits, I would like to table in the House, I will not make a statement as such, table in the House the new rates and just again to affirm that we are doing our best to have these rates come into effect the first pav day in January but whether it is possible or ~ot I do not know but we will certainly get them out the latter part of the month. ~- NEARY: It is true before the election. ------ AN HON. MEMBER: MR. MURPHY: AN HON. MEMBER: ~!R. MURPHY : He is really terrified.

The election is February 30 - two months. Inaudible. Mr. Speaker, if I may I would like to table these rather than go through a detailed list and I would like for every member to get a copy of it, any further information we are only too willing to give tl-..em. If the ignorant Member for Bell Island would refrain, Sir, I would finish my few words. Any other further information, Sir, that they would require, Sir, we are only too happy to give it to them. ANSWERS TO QrESTIONS FOR WHICH NOTICE HAS BEEN GIVEN ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER: The Hon. Member for Bell Island. MR. S. A. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to welcome the Minister of Tourism back in the House by asking him how many Silver Anniversary, how many thousand Silver Anniversary calendars were dumped in Robin Hood Bay? MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I think that question was asked on a previous day and I do not consider it to be one that requires an ur~~t and immediate answer, so it is out of order. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, you are quite right the question was asked on a previous day but of the wrong minister, Sir. I was told to direct my question to the Minister of Tourism. Would the minister care to answer it? MR. SPEAKER: Order, plea~e!

I ruled the ouestions out of order. 795d

December 11, 1974 Tape 2042 PK - 2 MR. NEARY: Mr. S1Jeaker, this one here, Sir, ! have is a very urgent matter, very urgent indeed, one of the most important questions ever to be asked in this House. Will the Minister of Social Services inform the House if he acted on the advice of the Planning and Priorities C=ittee or the 8ahinet SecretariAt when he made the major policy decision of discontinuing assistarce to welfare recipients to bu:T.ld outdoor privies? MR. SPEAKER: MR. MlJRPllY: MR. ROBERTS: he has not yet MR. SPEAKER: MJ,. NEARY: Order, please'. The question is out of order.

Just for the reco:rd he is way down low now. He is just trying to get down to the minister's level, Order, please! Mr. S~eaker, that is a situation that could backfire on the honourable minister. Sir, I -would like to ask the Minister of Transportation and Communications if he could tell the Rouse how much it is going to cost to finish the St. John's Harbour Arterial Road? MR. SPEAKER: The Hon. Minister of Transportation and Co=unicationa. HON. J. G: ROUSSEAU (MINISTER OF TRANSPORTATION AND COMMUNICATIONS): I could not venture an accurate guess. We have some cost estimates.

Depending on our negotiations no-w with DREE as to the further financing of the road, we feel that if the money is a-.,ailable next year we will do a cost estimate but t.1e are looking 1n the area of anywhere from $25 million to $30 milHon to $35 million in that area but I have no idea until next year because of the inflation and the costs that are rising, the cost of equipment and so on we cannot tell but somewhere in that a-rea. MR. NEARY: Mr. - Sueelcer, a suppl ementi:,,:y question- Surely the minister's department has anoroached Ot~e.;;a looking to-r assistance to finish that road.

Could the minister tell the Hou1,1e how much they have asked Ottawa to con.tribute? MR. ROUSSEAU: One hundred ,1er c'.lnt of the cost, MR. NEARY: llut how much? I m2o1, c~rt;,inly Ottawa :'-s not going to give the province a ;.,1e.ni·. cheqt,e- Ho~- much did the department ask for? 795~

December 11, 1974 Tape 2042 PK - 3 MR. ROUSSEAU: You know I cannot recall the exact figure now, it is down in the office I will get it for you tomorrow, if you would like me to? MR. NEARY: Okay, Mr . Speaker, tomorrow will be fine . Sir, I would like to welcome the Minister of Finance back into the Uouse by asking him if it waR nece,,Rarv to ~o ~Jl th e way out to Alberta to get an Assistant Deputy Minister of Finance? And would the mini ster care to make the announcement here in the House and give us the name of the new ssistant Deputy Minister of Finance? MR. SPF.AKER: order. !R. NEARY: MR. TROMS: ?IR.

NEARY: Order, please! That question is certainly out of Out of order, Sir? You are getting the boots today, Steve boy! Well let m.e see, Sir, if I can rephrase my question. Would the Minister of Finance care to elaborate on public statements that have been made that the province now has a new Assi stant Deputy Minister of Finance. MR. SPEAKER: The Ron. Minister of Finance. HON. H. R. V. EARLE (MINISTER OF FINANCE): Mr. Speaker, I was away and 79 -' 0

Decrml,er 11, l 'l74. Tnpc "n4J Rll - l did not hear the !)Uhlic statements. I have only heard a report on the public statements which, fo the lir,ht of the nerson who started this inquisition) I think are very appropriate to his usual tactics. What the Department of Finance has been attemptinp to <lo and narticularly in this instance is to upgrade the top civil servants in the Department of Finance, iD other words, to pet the best possihle help we can in that department.

We follower! the well defined nro cedure in this narticular case by asking the Chairman of the Civil Service Commission and two other top ranking civil servants to sit on a selection committee and of the thirty odd applicants the gentleman about which the inquiry made was selected as being by far the best. His name happens to be Mr. Greg Warner and the fact that he comes from Alberta I do not think should cause the House any undue concern . I would hope that if Newfoundlanders of ,M!e similiar oualities were looking for a job in Alberta they would get it.

We contend that l<'e have the best person that we can find for that particular job. MR. NEARY: Would the l'linister confirm or deny a report, Sir, that has bee.n brought to my attention that instead of Scrivener Consultants, Scrivener En~ineerinp over here at Memorial University at the Health Science Complex, instead of calling public tenders, Sir, would the minister confirl'l or deny that tenders were invited from a carefull y selected list of contractors on phase I of the construction? DR. FARRELL: Mr. Speaker, I do not understand the question correctly. Phase I. phase I of what?

MR. liEARY: Of the Health Science Complex. MR. DOODY: That was awarded before we p;ot in. DR. FARRELL: That whole contract was awarded to Scriveners before we p;ot into power. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, perhaps I am not making - A."l HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. NEARY: The question I am putting to the minister, Sir, I am asking the 7961

December 11, 1974. Tape 2043 RJI - 2 minister if the government, if the minister's department have completely abdicated their responsibility for calling public tenders to Scrivener? DR. FARRELL: Mr. Speaker, in answer to that question we certainly have not abdicated our powers and controls in this area to my knowledge and I will double check this for the honourable member from Bell Island. All of these standards will go out for public bids and that is where the situation is as I understand it. There is Quite a strong control through the Department of Public Works on this project. MR. NEARY: Hr.

Speaker, a supplementary question: Would the minister then confirm or deny that whether at the present time_,now I am not talking about when the project started, the continuance of work on certain aspects of the Health Science Complex is being negotiated on a fee basis by the people who already hold the contracts rather than call public tenders? The continuance of the work is being negotiated with the present contractf DR. FARRELL: To my knowledge no, Your Honour, but I will certa~nly check that out for the honourable member. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable member for Labrador North. MR. WOODWARD: nr.

Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the Minister of Transportation and CoTT1rnunications. Would the minister care to tell the House if there are negotiations goin~ on with Ottawa concerning the Trans Labrador Highway and if we can expect to see any action in this respect durin~ this coming season? nR. SPEAKER: The honourable ~Unister of Transportation and Communications. ~!R. ROUSSEAU: Yes, we have just about completed our comprehensive brief, the brief before that was not comprehensive enough. As I understand it, Quebec has 1ust :about completed theirs.

He would hope to get together with ~uebec so~etime, if not late this year, early next year and go to Ottawa immediately and hopefully meet with them. Certainly the honourable me1o1ber can aopreciate the fact that the matter of a Trans Labrador Highway is a personal concern of mine. I think I have heard somewhere that it was to he suggested that I keep my mouth shut about it and not bring·it out in public as much as I have because Ottawa's cost of course, you do not want to put the pressure on them. 7962

DeceJ!!he r 11 . l ')71.. RH - 3 AN l!ONOl'_RABLE ml!!lF.R : Tnautlible. MR. RO~_i:'iEAU: >:ot here. 1 ru'l -just sayinr the <iu~/lestion has n•.ached me bu t never t heless - AN HO?IOURABLE ~1!::MJIF.R: In-audible. MR. ROUSSEAU: I do not know. I nm just sayinit the s111>eestion has reached r-m. r do not know .,hether that is true or not. k~ HONOURABLE MF."'ll'P.R: Inauclible . 1-!R. ROU<;SEAU: J do not know . 'iomebody has su!"i:ested. not in the wvernment by t he way but the suizitestion has cone to me. [ do not know who. I said t he SURRest ion but U 1 remember correctly - A"I HONOURABLE HE~IDF.R: l:naudible.

M'R. ROUSSEAU: l do not recall that either to bo truthfull with you. Tt was not anybody of a hiph official office but of course, Mr. Trudeau and Hr. J amieson clid 'lujl,t e st that they were reedv to talk about it and we are rire­ pnred to talk about it . He will be tioin'1 f;O hopefully in the new -,ear. '-IR. SPF.AKER: The honou r able Member for <;t. llarhe North. 'IR . f'. ROl<F.: 'Ir . Speaker, a question to the Minister of ~1un1cin2l Affairs a nd Rousinr. . Has t he minister received any reoresentatjon from anv councils anywhere in the 7963

December 11. 1974 Taoe 2044 PK - 1 the province indicating concern over the fact that school tax authorities were infringing or cutting in on their own tax source or tax base? MR. SPEAKER: Does the Hon. Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing have a ministerial statement? MR. PECKFORD: !1R. F. ROWE: ------ No, Mr. Speaker, I have not. Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the Minister of Finance could indicate whether wnen he was Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing whether he received such representation as the one that I just mentioned? MR. SPEAKER: The Hon. Minister of Finance. MR.

EARLE: May I ask for a repetition of the question, I thought it was directed to the former - HR. F. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, what I was asking; had the minister when he was Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing received any representation from any councils anywhere in the province indicating concern over the fact that their tax ba~e or tax source was being cut into by school tax authorities? MR. EARLE: Mr. Speaker, I cannot recall any such instance.

I know that on many occasions councils of various kinds came in to complain that they did not have sufficient money to onerate hut thPv nevPr u~ed such an excuse to the best of my knowledge or such a statement. MR. F. ROWE: ------ Mr. ~peal -er, has the Minister of Education received any such representation? MR. ~PEAKER: The Hon. }linister of Education. HON. G. OTTENHEIMER (MINISTER OF EDUCATION): Mr.

Speaker, I recall having received what appeared to be a carbon copy of a letter and I am not sure to whom it was addressed 'in which a town council said something to the effect that they did not agree witt it, that they did not agree with school taxation in their area. It was a carbon copy of a letter addressed to, and I am not sure to whom it was addressed.

I think probably one point which might need clarification,is that, it was never stated, never the policy of this government or the former governm~nt that revenue in this area is exclusively for municipalities, that they have an exclusive right of taxation therein. That was never the policy 7964

December 11, 1974 Tape 2044 PK - 2 of this or the former administration. MR. F. ROWE: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Would the three ministers in question undertake to research their files in this connection and table any such letters of protest? MR. OTTENHEI}IER: Mr. Sneaker, in answer to that I am not sure that private correspondence,from people all over the province or various organizations, letters to ministers or copies thereof to ministers are necessarily opened, you know, for tahlinP. WP mav ai, well table our entire mail, bring the mail up here after it is opened and out 1t all on the tahle.

I really do not think that, that is the puroose of tabling information, that correspondence going to ministers is all tabled. AN HON. MEMBER: AN HON. MEMBER: MR. SPEAKER: It was a perfectly legitimate question ••••• •••• public protest. Order, please! The honourable Member for St. John's North. MR. J. A. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, I have a question that I would like to address to the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. Would the minister please inform this Rouse whether he has any more information for us on the house for house legislation that I asked him about a few days previously? !-1:R. SPEAKER; The Hon.

Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. MR. PECKFORD: Mr. ~peaker, I have a partial answer here. The only reason why I have not tabled it up to now is because I want to get some clarification on a number of sections to the Act under which this falls. A full answer will be given the honourable member within the next day or two. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Member for Fogo. MR. E. wINSOR: Mr. Speaker, may I direct a question to the Hon. Minister of Fisheries.

In the light that many fishermen did not get their report of claim in on the deadline of September 10, because of various reasons, could the minister now tell the Rouse whether those claims will be honoured and those fishermen will be paid for storm damages suffered last spring?

December 11, 1974 Tape 2044 PK - 3 MR: SPEAKER: The Hon. Minister of Fisheries. HON. J.C. CROSBIE (MINISTER OF FISHERIES): Mr. Speaker, the position is that the deadline date, I think, was September 10 and I think it should have been September 1. There was tremendous publicity in all of the media as to that deadline date. In addition, to that every fishermen in the island was sent a letter, in the areas effected,as to the date and the deadline for havirg any applications in, if they had lost any gear due to ice conditions. As I say every fisherman was sent a letter to that effect.

There have been some letters coming in nmJ from people who say, they did not realize before that they had to apply by September 1 or September 10. The position is that September 10 is a deadline and we are not accepting any applications that come in, that were not notified or sent in before Sent~er 10, 1974. AN HON. MEMBER: Shame! MR. CROSBIE: It is not shame at all. MR. NEARY: No • MR. WINSOR: Sir, what the minister is saying, 'is that they will not be paid for - MR. NEARY: would not - MR. SPEAKER: MR. NEARY: MR.

WINSOR: If they wanted to get a liquor outlet though he Order, please: The deadline would not amount to a row of beans. Mr. Speaker, may I direct another question to the Hon. Minister of Fisheries. Can he inform the House when he will be or the Premier will be appointing a 7960

December 11, 1974 Tape 2045 IB-1 Deputy Minister of Fisheries? JIB.. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, the Premier, I am sure, on my recommendation will appoint a Deputy Minister of FisheriPs as soon as we have found a man. 2· :'!EARY:_ Inaudible. 2-'.!'~'...S-~OS!lIE: _ I would not care if it is Alberta, the Nortli West Territories. Japan, ~rea or Germany or what country in the world. If we can find a suitable man with the capabilities to head up the Department of Fisheries as deputy minister. he will be appointed from I do not care what corner of the universe. To get back to the question, we have advertised, r!r.

Speaker, both here - ftl'i HONOURA!lLI )!EMBER: Inaudible. 1!R. CROSBIE: Dr. Valdmanis is no longer available. Tionourable gentlemen opposite talk about appointing people from outside because they have forgotten, they have short memories. We have advertised both here and on the Mainland Hr. Speaker, and we have had some, I think, fifteen or sixteen applications which will have to he reviewed by a Selection Board. In addition to that we hope to contact - we are trying to find leads ourselves on people who might be good candidates for the post. As yet, there is no appointment being made. Mr.

David Vardy who is the secretary of the Resource Planning Committee or the Planning and Priorities Committee, has been doing a magnificant job as acting Deputy :rinister for the last month. So, that we are always short staffed but he is doing a very capable job and we are delighted to have him there but an intensive search is still under way. HR. F. ROI-JE: Mr. Speaker, this question requires a little bit of a

preamble to the Hinister of Fisheries. Sir, this file here represents representations I have made to the minister's department on behalf of the fishermen for loss of gear suffered in the spring. What has happened is that the field representative from the Department of Fisheries has not gotten around to seeing all of the fishermen in the District of St. Barbe North. The question I am putting to the minister -

December 11, 197 4 Tape 2045 IB-2 t·~• __ S.!'._F_!,._Kr:R: Order, please! The honourable member is setting to a long

preamble and attempting to make a speech . .:..;.~-_F . ROWE : My qu£stion to the minister, Mr. Speaker, is that if the fishermen have not had an opportunity to be interviewed by that field representative, are they automatically disqualified for assistance or compensation for loss of gear? l!J'.. CROSBIE: I can certainly rest the honourable gentleman's mind and put the honourable gentleman's mincl at rest about that. No, that is not the case.

As long as they advise that they had a claim before September 10 or notified, wrote or notified the fisheries officer or whatever that they had lost gear, it does not matter whether it is now or two months ti.me that the inspector gets there, they are still eligible for assistance. Now, the honourable gentleman knows there are just so many regional representatives in the Department of Fisheries and they may go to an area and miss that man and they may come hack again and still miss him. AN HONOURABLE N"D!BER: Did you lose your voice when you were in Ottawa? Speak up . :_fJI .• CROSBIE: Hr.

Speaker, when I was in Ottawa I was treated with great c-onrtesy and there was decorum. I am not used to this invidious atmosphere, that is why I am losing my voice. The opposition is frightening me to death. So , they will get to them eventually, as long as they are notified i,efore September 10. '-~--~~.:.Y__;__ l-lr. Speaker. I wonder if the Minister of Hanpower and Industrial Relations would inform the House what time his government intends to recommend nc>w members for the Worlanen's Compensation lloard to replace the civil servants that are now operating that board? HON.

E. 'IAYllARD (1!IlltSTER OF HA."fl'0·mR AND INDUSTRIAL 3-F.:.~ATIONSJ_:_ "r. :=~2 °,e r:. a ."ei ect ~o r, ~oar:d ~as now heen set up to screen the applications - do you want me to answer the question, '-1r. Speaker? ~ N IIO!tO_l'RABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. HR . J:~ ~~r. Speaker, we advertised some time ago for a chairman for the ITorkrnen' s Compensation Board. The applications are in. We have now set up a Selection Board to screen the applications. Hopefully within another week or so, they will make their recommendations to me. I in turn 796d

llcc cmhc, I 1. 11)74 nake my reconune.ndations to cabinet. At that timc- o chairman 'W'ill be appointed. After a chairm an is appointed, the co.,m,issioners of ci1e 1:ol'.!;Inen' s Compansation Board will follow clo'lely thereafter. 11\-J 1~-- CARTER: Hr. Speaker, in connection with my question to the honourable :•inis ter of Municipal Affairs and iiousing, may I request at this time that this matter be debttted furt her on Thursday at five-thirty? :m.. SPE.AY..!:R: Order, please! I do not think that question is quite in order. I do not think cbe honourable member can direct a minister;request that he have the answer to 796~

December 11, 1974 Tape 2046 PK - 1 a question on a certain date. MR. ROBERTS: If I may speak tn the point of order. The honourable gentleman may have slept upon his right although he attempted to rise and was not quick enough off the mark but as I understand the rules governing the late show, all he has to do is say that he is dissatified with the answer given by the minister to a question and then notify Your Honour in writing for a certain point. It is not a matter of requesting, it is a matter of a private member choosing to be dissatisfied. Now the gentleman for St.

John's North may have slept upon his rights, that I do not know, that is a matter for Your Honour although I would submit there that the ~entleman did try to rise but he was not very forceful, my colleague for Bell Island out:hustled him again. But, I think, if the honourable gentleman wants to put it down for the late show, he should be allowed to. 'MR. SPEAKER: The Chair has no objection to that. I am sure it is not the Chair's place to inform the honourable member exactly what he has to do with regards to getting an answer to a question. The honourable Member for Bonavista South. MR. J.

MORGA.~: I have a question, Mr. Speaker,for the Hon. Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. In view of recent press reports in a possible plebiscite on school taxes in the St. John's school tax area) could the minister outline to the House of Assembly the position of his department and indeed the position of government with regards to plebiscites on taxes, in particular, school taxes in school tax areas. MR. NEARY: The Order Paper, Mr. Speaker. On a point of order- that question was asked yesterday and ruled out of order. Put it on the Order Paper. !'ffi.. SPEAKER: Order, please! AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Whether or not the question was asked yesterday is of no concern to me in a sense because I was not here. The only thing that bothers me is - 7970

December 11, 1974 Tape 2046 PK - 2 MR. NEARY: It concerns the House, Sir. Will Your Honour - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I would ask the honourable Member for Bell Island not to interrupt the Chair when it is trying to make a ruling. MR. NEARY: It is the business of the House - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! AN HON. MEMBER: Throw him out! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I will ask the honourable Member for Bell Island not to interrupt the Chair when it is trying to make a ruling. MR. NEARY: Inaudible. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! If the honourable Member for Bell Island insists on interrupting the Chair I shall name him.

MR. NEARY: Why not go down to Lewisporte and try and straighten out your problems down there. AN HON. MEMBER: Name him! Name him! MR. SPEAKER: Order, 1>lease! I invite the honourable Member for Bell Island to retract that statement. MR. NEARY: I do, Sir. mt. SPEAKER: With regards to the question asked by the honourable Member for Bonavista South . The answer to that question may be one that requires a rather lengthly answer and I do not think t.hRt fR the point of the question period. It may be a matter to put on the Order Paper or for another ministerial statement later. MR.

NEARY: A question for the Acting Premier. In view of the fact that Mr. McGrath, the Tory M.P. for St. John's East has publicly stated that there is going to be massive layoffs in Newfoundland in the next few months - AN HON. MEMBER: The Order Paper. MR. NEARY: That is not for the Order Paper. Twenty-three per cent by the 1st. of January. Would the Acting Premier care to make a comment on Mr. McGrath's statements? 79'71

December 11, 1974 Tape 2046 PK - 3 AN HON, MEMBER: That is for the Order Paper. MR. NEARY: Well, Sir, let me get back to my old buddy over there, the Minister of Public Works. Would the Minister of Public Works care to indicate to the House whether or not the new liquor store in Harbour Grace is yet opened, and if so, has his department entered into an agreement with Babb's Construction? AN HON. MEMBER: MR. NEARY: AN HON. MEMBER: MR. NEARY: Inaudible. 1 Sir, I am looking right at the minister when I - Inaudible.

Would the minister indicate to the House if the minister's department, the Minister of Public Works, the Department of Public Works has entered into an agreement with Babb's Construction in Harbour Grace to lease space for the rewfoundland Liquor Commission to sell booze in Harbour Grace? Got it nowf AN HON. MEMBER: Order Pa1.1er. MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, to clear the honourable gentleman's mind.

That has nothing to do with the Department of Public Works it has to do with the Newfoundland Liquor Corporation, and the Newfoundland Liquor Corporation called for proposals in the Town of Harbour Grace or the Harbour Grace Area for new premises for a liquor store. They called for proposals in Springdale. They called for proposals in Lewisporte. They called for proposals in two, three or four other places last year.

The Board of Directors of the Newfoundland Liquor Corporation reviewed all proposals received and the proposals that involved the lowest rent per square foot - the most satisfactory lease terms and the best facilities and the best location in the town and so and so forth was 7972

December 11, 1974 Tape 2047 IB-1 awarded the lease. In the Town of Harbour Grace Babb was one of I do not know how many, three, four or five people who made proposals and Babbs was accepted because it was the best proposition. The government had nothing at all to do with it. It was done by the Board of Directors of the Newfoundland Liquor Corporation. :•,R. NEARY: Would the Minister of Finance who speaks for the Newfoundland Liquor Commission in the House undertake to table a copy of the lease between the Newfoundland Liquor Commission and Babbs. !!R. ROBERTS: All of the leases. HR.

NEARY: All of the leases and any proposals that were submitted to the Newfounrlland Liquor Commission. l!R . EARLE : Hr. Speaker, I see no objection whatsoever to tabling leases which the Board of Liquor Control had made. In fact, they would be quite a revelation in comparison with some leases as were made in the past. ~ ~~ ROBERTS:_ A supplementary question, '.·\r. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER· Order, please! Order, please! The Chair has recognized the honourable Leader of the Opposition. ~R_._RQ_BERTS: Hr. Speaker, a supplementary question to the Minister of Finance. Would he also undertake to table the proposals?

I ask that because we on this side find it a coincidence that the Babb Company have once again managed to secure a contract without benefit of public tender. !!r. Speaker, the minister does not have to answer but is he just going to say nothing. Is he going to say yes or no or will the next royal commission discover it? We sav it in this House - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! His silence speaks for itself. ~!R. _ROBERTS: __ Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question. Would the honourable gentleman table Lewisporte, Springdale and wherever else they wish?

I do not know anything about the Minister of Fisheries asking about Lewisporte. I do not know anything about Lewisporte. I am concerned about the Babbs. J\_(~_l_!_O_t~q_U_!'_~LE MEMBER: Do not know anything about Lewisporte? ~!_11:,~00_~::_~S_:_ No, I do not. Not about liquor stores in Lewisporte. 797J

December 11, 1 CJ7/1 Tape 2047 rn-2 DR. FARRELL: What about St. Lawrence? ' ~-~A.!'~~:_ Hr. Speaker, if I could get a chance to answer. I have already answered the honourable member, that I would be happy to table all the leases that they require. ~~ RO~ERTS: We did not ask about leases, we asked about proposals. Nr. Speaker, a supplementary. The minister did say he would table the leases. We heard that and understood it. He still has riot dealt with the point of the proposals because unless the proposals are tabled, there is no way to know whether the lowest was accepted. 'MR. CROSBIE: !!r.

Speaker, they can easily wait until the honourable gentleman finds out. The other people who made proposals,when they hear what the terms of the lease are, if they tender something lower, we will certainly bring it to the honourable gentleman's attention. So, I do not think he needs to be worrying about. The leases will be tabled. 21!_.___s~KER: _ Order, please! /IN HO~TOURABLE l1El!BER: You hiding anything "John"? MR. SPEAKER: Order,please! NR. NEARY: A question for the Minister of Health.

Could the minister inform the House, Sir, whether or not he is in a position to reassure the people on the Burin Peninsula that their proposed hospital is not steeped in politics and they will not have to wait 100 years. ~~SPEAKER~ Order, please! HR. NEARY: - and that they will not have to wait 100 years for their new hospital. ~fl3._. MARSHALL: On a point of order. Sir, this is not what the question period is intended to do. This argumentative type of question is entirely and absolutely out of order. HR. ROBERTS: l!r. Speaker, to that point of order.

The honourable the House Leader has no right to say that a question is argumentative. !le has a right to contend that it is argumentative hut the honourable gentleman's arrogance is getting the better of him once again. He thinks that Your Honour must jump to his command. I invite Your Honour to rule upon the question. I submit that the question may he phrased in the colorful language for which my friend and colleaeue is so well known but that !11 a 7974

December 11, 1974 Tape 2047 IB-3 long way from argumentative. ~~ BARRY: To that point of order, J!r. Speaker, if I might. ttr, Speaker, here we have an instance of the honourable member for Bell Island engaging in the normal practice of referrin~ to an unnamed newspaper reporter. \-!hat is even worse in this case is that the particular newspaper report, the story is put out as the comments of an unnamed source, t•:r. Speaker. On this the honourable member is attempting to base a rational, intelligent question to the ltinister of Health. Mr. Speaker, do we have to put up with this? MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, to that point of order, Sir. I wish to inform the House that I am quoting, Sir, from "The Daily News" this morning, the Burin Peninsula

section of the morning news. I believe the gentleman on the Burin Peninsula who is responsible for w-riting these articles for The Daily News' is none other than ~Ir. Larry Hudson, P.C. t!R. ROBERTS: Defeated Tory candidate in Placentia West. •-~'._SPEAKE~ Order, please! The question raised by the honourable member for Bell Island is out of order. I would like to inform the honourable members that the thirty minutes for the question period has expired, indeed we have gone over somewhat.

Being Private !!ember's Day I recognize motion no. (6) as it appears on today's Order Paper, I think, to be moved by the honourable Leader of the Opposition. :-IR. ROBERTS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The motion before the House, Sir, if I can find an Order Paper - what is today? Wednesday, is it not? The motion before the House is a very short one. It says simply that a comm~ttee on the public accounts and on the report of the Auditor General be appointed with power to send for officers and papers and to sit in session or out.

I still think that should be without but be it as it may, the clerk at the table has put it on the

December 11, 1974, Tape 2048, Page 1 -- apb Order Paper in that form. Now, Sir, I do not propose to take very long in speaking in support of this motion. I would hope that it will win appr~val from all honourable members and I would hope that it will win speedy approval. We can then go on to discuss the motion which stands next on the Order Paper, the motion on student-aid policies which stands in the name of my friend and colleague the gentleman from St. Barbe North . AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) MR. ROBERTS: ----- I am sorry! I thought it was somebody making an intelligent comment but it is only the Minister of Social Services. ~._MURPHY: (First

part inaudible) a stupid goon. MR. ROBERTS: Now, Mr. Speaker, - MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order, Sir. I do not know whether Your Honour caught that comment but members on this side of the House heard the Minister of Social Services refer to the Leader of the Opposition as a stupid ~oon, Sir, and I ask Your Honour to direct the Minister of Social Services to retract that remark, it is unparliamentary, Sir. MR. SPEAKER: The Chair cannot ask the member to retract any stateffient the Cha:lr did not hear. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, members on this side of the House heard the remark, Sir, and we would ask Your Honour to send for the tapes, Sir , and if Your Honour can recognize it to ask the minister to retract the statement and apologize to the House. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Tourism: HON.T.P.HICKEJ_ (Minister of Tourism): The remark made by my colleague t.'le ~!inister of Social Services was in c•·'<!,'"'"'" u, .,n unparliamentary statement by the Leader of the Opposition. What is wrong with the Member for Bell Island? MR . ROBERTS: I beg your pardon! I made no reference at all to the Minister of Social Services .

It was in the least way dero t ga ory . I forget what it was I said about .him. What did I say? AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) 7976

December 11, 1974, Tape 2048, Page 2 -- apb MR. ROBERTS: That is right! What I said was that I thought I heard somebody make an intelligent remark but instead it was only the Minister of Social Services. I submit, if that were unparliamentary Your Honour would have immediately leaped to Your Honour's honourable feet and called me to order. .fa.~ HON . MEMBER: Repeat what was said please! MR. SPEAKER: Order please! I submit that the point raised by the Member for Bell Island and subsequent discussion was not a point of o~der and I recognize the honourable - MR. NEARY: Point of order, Mr . Speaker.

You can use whatever language you like in this House on your way out through the door and get away with it. MR. SPEAKER: Order please! Order please! That may be the opinion of the Member for Bell Island. The Chair did not hear the honourable Minister of Social Services nor the honourable the Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: To further that point of order I am asking Your Honour to send for the tapes to see if Your Honour can pick it up on the tapes. That is fair enough, Sir. There is an official record of the House. MR . SPEAKER: Order please!

The Chair recognizes the honourable the Leader of the Opposition. '.'1R. ROBERTS: Well, Mr. Speaker, for my colleague's valiant efforts to defend me I am grateful. Who really gives a hoot what "Hank" says, one way or another? Now, Sir, MR. HICKEY: Point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. ROBERTS: A11:ain? What is the matter with him? He has been out of the House for a week. MR. HICKEY: If Your Honour would permit, I would like to repeat what the Leader of the Opposition said and what the Minister of Social Services said in response. Maybe we should get the tapes, Mr. Speaker, because this kind of thing should stop.

SOME HON • ME!iB.ERS : Hear! Hear! '707'/

December 11, 1974, Tape 2048, :Page 3 -- apb MR. HICKEY: The Leader of the Opposition looking towards the door as the Minister of Social Services was leaving the chamber said; "I thought it was somebody intelligent coming :ln but it is only the Minister of Social Services." Now, Your Honour, that is unparliamentary. A few days ago in this Rouse it was st11.ted and it was ruled by Your Honour that any reference ,to the integrity of any persons, ministers or members of this House was unparlianentary and out of order. In response to that the Minister of Social Services made his response. MR. SPEAKER: Order please!

I assumed that matter bad been dealt with and I recognized the honourable Leader of the 0ppoaition. I think it is only fair though that I remi_nd all members that I think any member does have the right to be clllled by hi.s official office rather than by his name. MR , ROBERTS: M.r. Speaker, I referred to the honou .rable gen tlemliO by his official office, the Minister of Social Services, 79 7d

December II, 1974. Tape 2049 RR - 1 unless he has been dismissed as he so richly deserves to be, he is still minister to my knowledp,e. Now, Mr. Speaker, - A."1 HO~OURABLE MF:MBER: Inaudible. MR. ROl\F.RTS: -- - ---- He is back. I am delighted, Sir, to see him back and I hope that the minister will speak in favour of this. MR. SPEAKER : Order, please! MR. ROBERTS: I hope that he will vote in support of it. As I recall it, in long ago days, he has forgotten when he was on this side of the House. Mr. Speaker, does the honourable gentleman propose to let me go ahead? I will gladly engage in - Mr. Speaker, - MR.

MURPHY: ------ He said that I fo:q,et and I do not forget and I want to put in on the record. T do not forget, so he quiet. I have a right to object - MR. ROllERTS: May I - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! MR. HURPUY: Inaudible. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! It appears as if members to my left and to my rir.ht are insisting on interrupting the honourable member whom I recognized to speak. I would request them and inform them,as I am sure they are aware, that any member speaking does have the rif!:ht to be heard in silence. MR. ROllF.RTS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

As I was saying, the honourable the Minister of Social Services I hope, will speak in this debate and will vote in support of this rP.solution because as I was saying before he interrupted me in such an unparliamentary fashion, in the long ago days when he sat on this sine of the House as he will again if he is returned to this House, unless he goes to the liquor hoard or some other nost he so richly deserves, - Ml 1JO~OURAJ\LE ME~1JlER: Cut the price of beer - MR. ROBERTS: - - ----- Mr. Speaker, he used to move this type of motion, he and his colleagues ~uite regularly.

I think it is a sad commentary indeed that it is necessary for an opposition in the day and age of this enlightened Tory administration to have to move such a motion. Yet it is necessary, Mr. Speaker. That is why I moved it, that is why I put it dol-m on the Order Paoer and that is why I speak in support of it today.

DecPmber 11, 1974. Tape ?04~ RP. - 2 ?low, Sir, this has been around f.or a whi]e. It first apoearen on the Order Paper in this session on the eighth day of February. It was the fifth sittinf! day of the session and today according to the Order Paper is t~e seventy-fifth sittinr. aay of this third session of the thirty-sixth general assemhlv. So it has been around for seventy sitting days. Considering that we haa a prolonged adjournment from ahout the enc1 of .June until we r.athered for a little pre-ChristTT1as cheer at the end of November, it has really been around for about ten months.

At any point, Mr. ~peaker, during those ten months the administration through the l!ouse Leader or throuP,h any spokesman for it could have either called the motion and I for one would have agreed to let it go through without any debate for my

part insofar as I had anything to say on that issue as one of the forty-two members of this House and I know my colleagues would agree with me on that or they could have put down their own motion to appoint a committee on the public accounts but they have done neither, Mr. Sneaker, they have done neither. That is why this motion is before us today. Tt should not he necessary to put it in, Mr. Speaker. It is necessa .ry to hrinP; it in but it should not have been necessary.

If this P,Overrunent had some belief in the principles th,;,v usrn to espouse ~nd were not self-confessed, self-admitted hypocrites, they would have moved on this a lonr, time ago. Mr. Speaker, back in the days when the once again fortunately absent Minister of Social Services they once said of uoh Stanfield, he is the only man who adds something to a room by leavinr, it, equally true of the ~inister of Social Services. AN HONOURABLE MF.MBER: Inaudible. MR. ROBERT~: I must say, Mr. Speaker, I wish he would stand when he is speaking. It is hard to tell at times. }!R· SPF.AKER (STAGG): Order, please!

The honourable the Leader of the Opposition is debating a topic which has been on the Order Paper for some time. Certainly it is his right to debate it. It is not his right to harass or berate any other honourable members as they come in or out of the Rouse or refer to their nhysical stature or any other of their attributes or lack of them. I sur,gest the honourable member be relevant at all times. 79JO

n~cemher 11. 197G. Tape 2049 !!.11 - 3 I will do my very hest to be r elevan t , Mr. Speaker. As 1 w;is sayin'-, when the honourable r.entleman, the Minis t er of Social Services and his collea11ues sat over here, they used to move this t ype of motion quite re~ularl y . AN 110:'<0URMLF. MF.~t:BF.R: Inaudible. 'IR .. ~'!_l?RT~: I do not know how many times . I have not looked it up but it was a numher of ti~es. I have no doubt that if T were in the Ebuse when a vote was taken on it, I voted a~ainst i t. J have no doubt of that .

I have not hothered lookinA it up but anybody who wants to check the 1ournals or the Hansard or the record will find it there. What t dtri t t.lid and what t did not do, I did :,.ot do . AN l!ONOURAllLF. ~<P.i,q\ER: lnaudible . MR. P.OBERTS : - ----- No. C:ir, orinciples have not chanAed but I am (!Uitc will!~ to adnit that what 79 J .l

December 11, 1974 Tape no. 2050 Page 1 - MW was a mistake in the past should be corrected in the present. I co1D111end that to the gentleman from Placentia West. His constituents feel exactly the same way. Now, Mr. Speaker, as I was saying - MR. CROSBIE: (Inaudible). MR. ROBERTS: As I was saying, Mr. Speaker - tlere is another gentleman who bas never changed his mind, the Member for St. Jolm's West,the fellow who used to wear the groove going back and forth here , old number two. He has to try harder because he is only number two. Now, Mr. Speaker, as I was saying before the gentleman from St.

Jolm's West returned to the Chamber and added thereby a great deal to the Chamber, the Tory Party used to believe in a committee on public accounts. Back in 1970 - AN HON. MEMBER: The rules - MR. ROBERTS: I will come to the rules because the administration have not honoured the rules. They have 11&de no effort to live up to the rules. Back in 1970, mn May,16, there was held (I BIR not sure where it was held. Perhaps it was in St. John's or perhaps it was held in Gander.) a Tory Policy Convention. AN HON. MEMBER: Gander. MR. ROBERTS: Gander. I believe the gentleman from St.

Jolm's East, that great intellect was chairman of the committee • . AN HON. MEMBER: Not the one where somebody tried to light a fire. MR. ROBERTS: No. They burn down the Gander Hotel during annual meetings. There was a Tory Policy Convention - was it at Gander? The gentleman from St. John's was chairman of it. AN HON. MEMBER: St. Mary's Hall, MR. ROBERTS: St. Mary's Hall, was it? Is that the one where the present Premier was made leader? 7932

December 11, 1974 Tape no. 2050 Page 2 AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. ROBERTS: Right! That is the one where a number of other people were not made leader. Now, Mr. Speaker, thate was aTTory annual meeting and one of the resolutions passed there was that a standing committee on the public adcounts be established. Well in May, 1970, that was the opinion of the then opposition and certainly they could not be held responsible for not implementing it, they were not the government . In due course, in the course of events, they became the government.

On April 19, 1972, that was after the infamous Saunder's election but after the election in which they had quite a good majority, thirty-one or thirty-two or thirty-three or whatever it was, the speech which His Honour read opening that sessiontsaid among other things: "My government will requew& the setting up of various internal committees composed of members of both sides of this h•nourable House, including a public accounts conmittee." It goes on to name a number of other conaittees. The Tories gave every impression of carrying through on their platform, their stated promise, their stated goals.

Subsequently, shortly thereafter on May 2, 1972, the House resolved unaniJnously without debate to appoint a select committee on the public accounts.

Five honourable members were named to it: The Member for Trinity South, who I think was then a backbencher and who is now the Minister of Rural Development, when he is around; the Member for Harbour Grace who then, as now, sat as a private member; the Member for Fortjne Bay, the present Minister of Finance, who I believe was still a minister - no, I am not sure whether he was Minister of Economic Development .or not; my colleague from Bell Island and the practice was followed to let the opposition designate the chairman. The chairman was hhe honourable gentleman, my friend from Labrador North.

The committee were appointed. 7 0'). ' .-;, 0 .1

December 11, 1974 Tape no. 2050 Page 3 My colleague, the Member for Labrador North, certainly if it is necessary, will say just what happened. As I understand it, the committee met twice. They did appoint a secretary, Mr . Colin Baird, C.A., a prominent chartered accountant. He practices here in St. John's under the fi:ra name of Baird and Baired. There were two meetings. The first meeting had a reasonablJ good turn-out. At the second meeting, my friend from Bell Island appeared, the gentleman from Labrador North appeared and I am told that was it. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR.

ROBERTS: The present Minister of Finance, I am told, did appear, be it a short or long time. The minister may speak in the debate. I am passing on what I am told. The minister I would hope will get into the debate. That was the end of the public accounts committee. In due course, that session was prorogued and, of course, the committee being a sessional committee, disolved with it. I would imagine we canld have quite an interesting little argument as to where the responsibility should lie.

My colleague, the Member for Labrador North, said then and has said subsequently in the House and outside that the House by that stage had adjourned for the summer and members had indicated that they would not come to a meeting. 7934

December 11, 1974 Tape 2051 PK - 1 They were not available for a meeting. I was not at any of the meetings, I have no knowledge. I can only pass on what I have been told and I do. That would put that committee in a similar position to the committee on public accounts which was appointed during the last year or two of the Smallwood Administration. I was on that committee, Sir, as was the then Member for Port au Port, Mr. William Callahan, and now the Editor of "The Daily News" here in St. John's and I believe the Minister of Justice also sat on that committee.

We sat to work with a will and a-half, we were well on into our work when the House was prorogued and subsequently dissolved. There was a general election. The Member for Burin was returned, the Member for White Bay North was returned, the Member for Port au Port as he then was met an unhappy fate at the polls. Your Honour may have some knowledge of that fact. Then that committee lap~ed with the prorogation and dissolution and its work came to naught. Now, Mr. Speaker, we could go on at any length one wants about what went wrong in the past and what the cononittee should or should not have done.

I, for one, feel that the Minister of Justice as he now is and myself and Mr. Callahan did go a bit astray in 1971, I think, it was on that Public Accounts Committee. We set out, in effect, to rewrite the Revenue and Audit Act. It is now called the Financial Administration Act. I think it was foolhardy of us, overly boid, overly ambitious and not the job of a Public Accounts Committee. We set out to do it.

We had gone quite a long way towards g~ttin~ somP. preliminary points established and getting well into the body of the work when the usual_ faith of a democratic government intervened and we had to face the electorate and it went on from there. My concern is to make sure that a committee is set up now. That it has, I do not specify a number of members, it could be five or seven, and if any honourable gentlemen wish to amend it, I suppose such an amendment would be in order. If no amendment is made, I believe, it has seven members, although our rules do speak on the point and the rules 79d~

December 11, 1974 Tape 2051 PK - 2 would supervene. The tradition is that a member of the opposition be appointed as Chairman of it. I would hope and expect that tradition will be continued. It is a tradition here, even more than that , it is a tradition of well established authority at Ottawa. Mr. Speaker, the page seems to be in a conspiracy. I mean, I know we only have one and he has a lot of work to do but can a fella get. a drop of water? I know the page is working, I mean, I am not implying he is down trying to get his unemployment insurance but - Thanks very much. Mr.

Speaker, my concern is where do we go from here? AN HON. MEMBER: Go out and get the fresh air! MR. ROBERTS: The fact remains that in all thP. vearR R1ncP. r.onfederation under both the Liberal Administration and the Tory Administration we have not had a functioning ~ublic Accounts Committee. I think, we should have one. I believe, we should have one. I hope that all members of the House, every honourable gentleman will agree with me. I think there is a very great job of work which could be done by the committee.

I do not think it is their job, Sir, to rewrite, what used to be called,"The Revenue and Audit Act",I believe, it is now called "The Financial Administration Act", call it what one may but it is not their job to rewrite the basic financial legislation governing the control of the handling of the public funds of this province. I think, if the House wishes to tackle that job, I think, we should set up a select co111D1itte for that purpose. I do not think we should do that incidentally the legislation we have was updated a year or so past, it seems to function fairly adequately.

It has defects but these will be corrected by amendment from time to time. I think that the function of the committee is to take the Report of the Auditor General, who is our servant in this House, reports to the House, answers to the Rouse, and can be removed only by the House. Mr. Speaker, I have a good voice and I am able to use it hut honourable gentlemen beyond the House in the lobbies are being unusually loquacious and 7930

Decemher 11. 1974. Tape 205~ RH - 1 unusually loud. A'T JT()Nl'ITTI½_Jlg_ !~MJl"F:R: And rowdy. MR. ROUF.llTS: Well, it is too early in the day for them to he rowdy but I mean could they go into their cO!T11!1on room if they are going to he that COTi'"!nn, 1'1r. Speak er, - A"! HONflURAllLE l'ff'MBE!l: That does not mean you, "Joe". MR. ROllI:RTS: ~lo, I am not referring to the gentleman from Labrador West. He is having a drop of coffee. AN !!O"lOURAfll.E MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. ROTIERTS: Well, that is his best view. "r.

Spea!r.er, as I was sayin?: hefore these slings and arrows of outrageous fortune are hurled at l'le fror.i al l sides, my frien,Ts, my political foes. There are a nlllllher of matters I su11;gest the col!II'littee could look into. I think we could tak e the nost recent report which is for the Financial year ended 31 March 1973 and there are a number of points which the Auditor General brings to our attention as a House of Assembly iri his reoort in which he sup.;p,ests all is not well.

I think the committee could send for witnesses to go into these matters to ~et to the bottom of them because the significance of what the Auditor General reports, Sir, let us be clear on that, the sip.nificance is solely with the fact that money has been spent without proper legislative sanction be :It prior or be it subsequent. That, 5ir, is what the Auditor General's iob :Is. That is his 1ob. 1t is not his 1ob to inquire whether a given sum of money, whether we should spend Sl million on roads or $100 million on roads.

That is a matter for the House to determine when the estimates are passed and when the necessary supplementary supply is passed. That determines where the money is spent and how much is to be spent. We decide that as a House. Practice, that means the government, practice that in turn menns the Treasury lloard and given a strong '-linister of Finance that we had for a couple of years before the present minister assumed office, the N1.nister of Finance would have a lour! voice in that. That is not the Auditor General's job, Sir.

It is of no concern to hi~ whether the people nf this Province spend $100 million on a Confederation r.elehration or $1 million. His concern is simply to make sure that money that hRs heen spent has been authorized by this legislature. That is his joh as Auditor General. That is his sole function. In his report he has 1981

December 11, lC)7l•. Tape 2ns2 RH - 2 raise.cl a numher of ouestions, a number of points where, in his cininion and hC' citeF his eviclence. l'IOney has been snent contrary to ler.islative authori­ zation. That is what the document is all about. Many of these, Mr. Rpeaker, there may have been a perfectly straightforward explanation} the Mere fact that money is spent without being properly authorized by legislation does not necessarily mean that it has been robbed or stolen or misappliecl or wasted or anvthinp else; it means that this House has not apnroved the expenditures.

T would smbl'lit that it is the ioh of the committee to inquire into the report of the Auditor General, to send for witnesses, to send for officials. to send for paoers and then to see what has been clone and to see what lies behind it, shonlcl further action be taken, has action been taken where it is necess;i_ry anc then to renort hack to this llouse. In addition, Sir, the committee has a mandate, it has the same mandate at ~ttawa to look into other matters it wishes to raise. The Auditor General can raise mattPr".

The committee h;i_s a ripht to check into other matte.rs it wishes to raise. !low, just let me refer briefly to the "'Ost recent report. It was tabled here in this Hons<' earlier this session, the report of the Auditor General. Let me just refer to a number of the paragraphs in which he makes c.omments th;i_t I submit shoulc1 be looked at by a committee. 1'arapr11ph 33 deals with the matter of collection of some revenue anc1 timber rov;,lties.

The Auditor r.eneral nakes a comment that the denartnent does not have adequate procedurPs for the snhsennent collection of ar>ounts clue resu 1 tinp from cheques returned N.S.F., non sufficient funds. "'My st11ff (the Auditor General's staff) have cited examoles of this to officials of the denartment and requested that written instructions he prepared detailinp the pro- cedures to insure collection.'' Sn the committee when it was a;0pointed wou]d simnlv senc1 for the denuty ministe>r of the department.

Tt would say "Deputy Minister with reference to oRrR<'rRnh ·n, what have you done?" anrl if I then say to the J\uditor C:enera] or one of his staff. "In your opinion, is this adequate. are we protected now.'' We will p;et a report. 792d

Decemher 11, 1974 Tape 2053 rn-1 The committee cannot make the governr.ient do anything. All they can do is report hack to the !louse anc! to say uhat they have found. Paragraph (34), 'The weaknesses in the system of internal control, water power rentals, a little over $1.1 r.iillion. ·• The Auditor General says, "The audited revenue from this source disclosed the following system weaknesses. It goes on to a number of detailed collll'\ents about the way this rather large sum of money is accounted for or not accounted for.

Paragraph (36) refers to Sl00,000 penalty which has been ir.iposed upon Ilowaters Limited under legislation but which, by virtue of an Order in Council dated October 19, 1972 - I am sorry, that was the one which imposed it or which informed that it was imposed but no further action was taken. No further action has been taken as of the time of this report. Again, what action has been taken? Have Bowaters paid the $100, oorl? The Auditor General went to the Justice Department to ask for an opinion. At the time of his report he had not received an opinion. Has he received one subsequently? What does it say?

It is $100,000 that should come into the public chest. It is under the act that they have to pay so much a cord for export. There may or may not be something wrong. I do not know. There is no allegation that Ilowaters have attempted to rob $100,000. There i~ no thought of that. It is simply a question of sloppy procedure, sloppy controls and action being taken to correct them. We could go on. Paragraph (40), subhead 4-06-01 - general continr,encies entertainment, Expenditure charged to this subhead includes an amount of $517 paid to the Act III Restaurant, Arts and Culture Centre, St.

John's, as the cost of a dinner for the Progressive Conservative Caucus. In my opinion this payment does not represent a proper charge against public funds. I think most honourable members, ~r. Speaker, would agree that to pay $517 to a very expensive restaura~t for a dinner and presumably all that goes with it, is hardly a charge against public funds because with thirty of them at $517, that is about seventeen dollars or eighteen dollars a head. They had a pretty good meal and quite a few drinks for that. Now, in any event the money was paid out.

The committee would have the power to find out, first of all, whether that money has been repaid. 798~

December lL 1974 Tape 2053 IB-2 Obviously it should he repaid. The treasurer of the Tory Party - ,Jho is it. Dick Green offi.cially treasurer? J'e is the bag man? Then, who is the treasurer? Don Dooley, '.•1r. Dooley. A': i!O~'OURAJlLE ;n:imER: --------- The liquor expert. ~ ,_ _ROB_ERT~ Yes, he handles all those li(Juor agencies. !Jon Dooley, the treasurer of the Tory Party, should, if he has not already, should draw a check payable to the exchenuer account for $517 and he should send that forthwith with a little note saying, ,·Dear Exchequer Account or dear comptroller, dear !lr.

Martin, please find enclosed herewith n check from t~1e Progressive Conservative Association for $517. We submit this to reimburse you for the money which inadvertently was paid on our account. Or was it inadvertent - that, Sir, is something the committee would have to find out as well because although Your l!onour may not be intimately faniliar vith it, that amount could not have been paid by the treasury, a checJ.. could not have been draim unless somebody signed a voucher form. l1ow, tr,at is the interesting thing.

In comes a bill from it does not matter where, whether it is sent d01cn from the eighth floor or whether it is sent in fror;i the Arts and Culture CentrP 0r Phrther it is sent in by the postman, it does not matter, into the disbursement

section of the Department of Finance there cooes a bill, Arts and Culture Centre, c:-ne dinner party, $517. 'loboriv in the treasury, Sir, under the controlled system that has been in effect in t11is province, I do not know, certainly since commission of government ,.lays, the one Jim Thompson and Walter '~arshall designed back in commission clays or uh0ever rlid rJesign it - tl,ese are the two men I first knew in connPc tion with it, the controllecl system is that nothing can be paid unless (1) there is a voucher to authorize it and: (2) there is a subhead ap;;iinst which it can he charged. ,q pn:;orn.t-BLE :ir.:'.BT::R: Inaudible. - --··- --- - - - -- -- !~3_.__l,_O_D_l':RT~.

Yes, ?'r. Halter 'larshall was quite properly, quite strict on it. So he should have been. That control is the hE'art of this ~iouse's control over expenditures. It is very simple, if there is a subhead against which it can be charged and if there is a voucher authorizing it J I woulcl assume there was such a voucher) if not, some official in the disbursement, tlw check paying division of the Department 79.;0

necemher 11, 197~ Tape 205 3 IB-3 of Finance should be on the carpet. I mean if we have officials down t here who are in thP ha.hit of sendinr, out checks without vouchers to cover th=. t hen ..,e shoultl know about it because it is only S517. ~!aybe next time son1ebody will send r.eors:e : 1.cLean half a million for walking Money or anything could happen . l mean, that one control is the heart of the legislative control over the expenditure process . That is why the Depu ty "!inister of Firulnc e is also comptroller. 1'hat is his r.iore important title. That is really the title to which he is appointed and paid, 793J.

December 11, 1974 Tape 2054 PK - l Comptroller of the Treasury. He is not paid .as Deputy Minister of Finance. He may be getting an addendum. I know when Denis Groom was there he was paid a total amount which came from two subheads, by vote of the House. But, I believe, now that Mr. Martin is paid only as Comptroller of the Treasury. You can look it up in the estimates, Mr. Speaker. So that is the key to it. A voucher. Now was there a voucher for that $517.00? If so, who signed it? ~P.cau~P. whnPVPr signed it will have to answer for having authorized an improper expenditure.

And that gets to be a more serious matter now. Who did sign it? Did the Premier sign it? Did someone on the staff of the Premier's office sign it? Did the Minister of Finance sign it? Who signed it? Where is the voucher? That is why it is so important to have the power to send for papers. After all the committee represents the House and the House, in theory, at least, Sir, controls the government.

The committee must have the power to send for the officials and say; "Bring with you please the voucher, the papers in connection with this expenditure or any other." Then when we know what action has been taken, we know what the situation is, the committee will be in a position to say what further action, if any, should be taken. It goes right to the heart of the whole process, Sir, the whole process of legislative control of expenditure. I would think that particular little item, I have no doubt it was a grave error. The bill comes into the Premier's office, the boys had a bit of a party over there.

That is fair enough. I do not begrudge the Tory Party a meal at the Arts and Culture Centre, if they want to pay for it themselves. MR. NEARY: It was like the bulldozer. MR. ROBERTS: Right! It was like the bulldozer. We will come back to the bulldozer. But if they want to have a little party at the Arts and Culture Centre, that is fine. I mean, you know, it is a free world is it not? But when it comes to be paid by the government of this province then, Sir, that is too much. If it was a mistake, fine but if it was 799t.

December 11, 1974 Tape 2054 PK - 2 not a mistake, again I want to know why. If it was not a mistake it represents a conscious attempt to defraud the people of this province. It was not a proper expenditure. What I want to know, was it repaid? The same with the Power Commission. At one stage the Tory Party owed the Power Commission,after the interesting events in Hermitage, owed the Power Commission a couple of thousand dollars which they had run up. MR. CROSBIE: MR. ROBERTS: MR. CROSBIE: MR. ROBERTS: He owed the telephone company. No, I am not aware we owe the telephone company anything. They were on "Open Line".

I am not aware - we owed Abe Godwin some money but Abe Godwin is not a crown corporation unless the Tories have done something I do not know about. MR. NEARY: A Tory representative down in Harbour Breton - MR. ROBERTS: But now, Mr. Speaker, we owed Abe Godwin some money, sure we did. We paid him. We paid him well, whatever his bill was. Abe Godwin did not raise it on "Open Line" it was one of the few Tories left in Harbour Breton after the election.

But in any event, Sir, the Power Connnission were owed a couple of thousand dollars by the Tory Party for acconnnodation which they provided at Camp Boggy, the camp in behind St. Alban's. The Power Commission rent out that accommodation and provide meals. They provided them to us as well.

It is quite cosy, Your Honour, on one side of the dining room there would be three or four of us valiant freedom fighters and on the other side there would be eight or ten ministers and flunkies and helicopter pilots gobbling it up but all of them, in theory, at least, Sir, being paid for by private groups such as political parties. We paid our bill. We had to take up a collection, The Member for Labrador North, Sir, had to give practically his last dollar bill, as a matter fact, he has a five year old - how old is little Mellie? Five or six? MR. WOODWARD: Seven, MR. ROBERTS: He has a seven 799J

December 11, 1974, Tape 2055, Pa!?e 1 -- apb year old son, Sir, and the poor little fellow's baby bonus had to go into the kitty to pay for the stay at Camp Boggy. The Member for Twillingate had to take a day's revenue from the ''M.V .Twillingate" and put it into the kitty. The gentleman from St. Barbe North, Sir, well, I will not say what he had to do. In any event, the point is made. The point is made. Public funds should not be used to pay party expenses.

Paragraph (42) on the Arts and Culture Centre, talks about the ways in which monies derived from the operation of the Arts and Culture Centre are not beinp.: handled in accordance with the Revenue and Audit Act. It refers to a total of receipts and disbursements of about $75,000. A fairly large sum of money, Your Honour, to have floating about without proper control. (45) refers to an expenditure of $244,000 which included $24,000 which were made to companies for the production of slide presentations for six government departments.

Of course, this was the infamous George ~1cLean rip-off or one of the many infamous George McLean rip-offs. Mr. McLean or his company was paid $24,000 for producing slide presentations for six government departments. The bills submitted by the company, there is no question of who signed the vouchers here, it was my friend from St. Mary's. The bills submitted by the company to the Department of Education and Youth we.,re approved for payment by the minister, so the minister's initials or name or something is found on them. I mean, it is straip,htforward insofar as it goes.

The Audi tor General goes on: ''In conducting our audit of these expenditures we, the Auditor General, we were unable to determine; (1) whether or not there was a contract with the company to produce these slides at an a~reed price; (2) what the slides were used for; (3) where the slides are at the present time:' The date of that was the date of his report, January 31, last. Eleven months ago. Why the cost of producing slides for other departments of government was charged against the appropriation of the Department of

December 11, 1974, Tape 2055, Page 2 -- apb Education and Youth? Why should the Education Department have to pay for, for example, the Highways Depart:Jnent? Some of those were those terrible thipgs of little cars going in and out. The minister was not the minister at the time. He may have seen them on the television. Little cars going in and out and the slide presentations or film presentation? Then the Auditor General concludes his list of things he was unable to determine by saying whether in fact the slides were ever received by the government. Now, here is a juicy little item.

It is only $24,000 it ceuld be said, It is only $24,000 but it would appear from what the Auditor General was able to find out, and remember, Mr. Speaker, the Auditor General has the right to go into a government department and to send for papers and books and to get information and documentation. As a matter of fact, unlP.Ss it has been changed, a copy of every Order-in-<:ouncil authorizing an expenditure or every Gabinet Directive or Treasury Board Minute authorizing an expenditure is automatically sent to the Auditor General. Automatically. Mr. Channing, the Clerk of the Co1mcll and Mr.

Young the Secretary of the Treasury Board, unless their instructions have been changed, these are standing instructions. The Auditor General has a right to become involved in the internal workings of the administration of the Government of this Province and he is unable to find out whether the slides were even received by the government. So, Mr. McLean's company - we know they got the $24,000 but nobody knows whether they did anything at all for it. Maybe they did)maybe they did not.

We know the minister authorized it and so the Minister of Education and Youth should be made to appear before the committee and to testify. Did he authorize it? If not then that ends that. If he did, why? Then maybe he could tell us whether there was a contract and what the slides were used for and where the slides are now. We paid for them. The people of Newfo\llldland paid for them. True, you could say, Your Honour out of $750 million or whatever our ·· 798J

December 11, 1974, Tape 2055, Page 3 - apb total gross expenditure will be this fiscal year, $24 ,000 is not much, but, Sir, if there is $24 ,000 hw much more is there? $24 , 000 in itself if it is improperly spent should be recovered. Remember the Auditor General is not saying that Mr. Geor~e McLean should not be hired . We say that because we think the man is the worst kind of political patr011age. That is not the point.

The point is that the man or the company, let us say the comoany, were l!iven $24, 000 of public funds with the written approval -of the Minister of Education and the Auditor General cannot find out why . Now the minister owes the people an explanation, he owes the committee an explanation and it may be that N.r. licLean owes the government $24 ,000 , 7990

December 11, 1974 Tape no. 2056 Page 1 - MW although it will be a frosty Friday in Hades, Mr. Speaker, if we ever get that money out of Mr. McLean or his company. The Auditor General makes a reco11111endation with respect to this curious state of affairs.

He says with regard to the foregoing: "In my opinion:(1), there should have been a written contract between the government and the company for the production of slide presentations.~ The next time they want something from McLean they should not just ring up and say, "George, buddy, how about doing some work and send us the bill?" More than likely what happened was that they said: "George, buddy, we will get you some money, do something for us, Band us the bill and we will send you the money." In any event the Auditor General recommends that there should be a written contract.

That is a fairly straightforward and reasonable reco111Dendation indeed, It goes on: (2) "The Department of Education and Youth should not have charged its appropriation.-,witt, expenditure relating to the production of slides for use by other government departments." The minister should be heard to say why that curious state of events was.

Mr, Speaker, are we next going to have the Department of Health paying for the coat of sending the Minister of Finance around the world, Are we gaing to have the Department of Education paying for the coat of paving a road in St, Mary's District, That makes a mockery of the whole financial control system of this province and this legislature, But yet, $24,000, it would just as easily have been for anything, It was not proper to have it paid by the Department of Education and Youth, They should not have done it just because they were trying to pay off Mr. McLean, That is all they were tyjing to do, 799i

December 11, 1974 Tape no. 2056 Page 2 (3) :"The Department of Education and Youth should have not applied to the Department of Finance for an issue of public money to pay the cost of these elides without certifying, as requi~ed by Statute 51 (l)(

A) of the Revenue and Audit Act, the goods had been received. " I have gotten a new flaw in the system. How big is the flaw? The government, in the course of a year, Mr. Speaker, buys tens of millions of d~lare worth of goods. Can these be paid for without somebody certifying that they have been received? Not according to the ievenue and Audit Act. It says quite categorically: "Before a voucher can be issued, a responsible official has to say we got them." We got it so you can now pay for it.

The Minister of Education and Youth should be heard to say why he authorized this payment without even making sure that the goods had been received. It is bad enough that they were done without contract. It is bad enough that the department was paying for things that it should not have paid for but apparently there wa~ no effort made to find out whether they had been received or not. As a matter of fact, I am not aware to this day, whether in fact they have been received to this day. They ils.y have been or they may not have been. I do not know.

Maybe next year's edition of the Auditor General's Report will conment on that point. (4) : "The Department of Finance should not have issued a cheque in respect of the application received from the Department of Education and Youth since it was not properly certified in accordance with

Section 52 (l)(

A) of ·the Revenue and Audit Act . " Somebody should then have a look at the Department of Finance. 'lhey did the same thing here as they did in connection with the Arts and Culture Centre. They send out cheques to pay bills without proper authorization. Now are these the only two examplee1 799d .

December 11, 1974 Tape no. 2036 Page 3 Remember, Hr. Speaker, the Audi~br General does not audit every single tranaaction. In the course of twelve months, I would not be surprised if the government had several hundred thousand transactions, in-end-out entries on journals of one sort of another, maybe more than that. If there are 30,000 people receiving cheques from the government for payrolls that is 360,000 entries right there and more than that now because we are ~eing paid twenty-six times a year. I suppose there are several million entries.

Then every thing the government purchases, every payment they send out and then all the cheques that go out from the Department of Social Services each month, all of them, cheques sent out from the government - Is our Department of Finance now in the habit of sending out cheques without somebody checking. The Auditor General has found at least two examples. All he does, of course, Mr. Speaker, is s-ple. That is the auditing technique. He makes a test. Be uy take every one hundredth voucher. I do not know 'how he does it. He makes a test. He has found at least two ell:allples.

Interestingly enough, there is a common thread between these two examples. Each of them involves the Tory Party. Each of them involves favouring the Tory Party with public funds; one a payment to Mr. Mclean or his company, the Tory advertising agency; the other a payment in behalf of a great big wine and liquor and dinner party, attended solely and only by the Tory M.H.A.'s in the House. Was there any undue pressure? I think that that is a question the committee could ask the finance officials. Are these the only two that were approved?

If so, is it a coincidence that these two benefit the Tory Jarty improperly using public funds? If they were not the only two approved, then what is wrong with the system and what changes should be made? It is a fertile ground for the committee, Sir, to look into. That takes me up to paragraph 45. Paragraph 50 refers to payment to the Royal Canadian Mounted Pllice, more money than should have been paid to them under 799~

December 11, 1974 Tape no. 2036 Page 4 contract. Again tbi.s is an improper proceeding. There is no suggestion here of impropriety. It is just a matter that the government are paying more than they should have pa;l.d. It notes also the fact that as of that point, the end of January last, this year, two courts for several months were in arrears in sublllission of their monthly reports and remittances to the Departlllent of Justice. Now, Mr. Speaker, this could be a serious matter.

Within the past five years, one magistrate has been sentenced to jail and one court clerk, I believe, got a jail sentence, I am not 1;1ure. At least two men, 11111ong the hundred1;1 re1;1pondble for handling money in the courts, have fallen afoul of the criminal law. In each case, they have been prosecuted and in each case a penalty was imposed after they were found guilty. Here we are, just ten months ago, there are still tw.o courts which are in arrears in their reports. I Ila not saying that there is anything wrong. I do not bow. That is uuvo

December 11, 1974 Tape 2057 IB-1 the point, !·tr. Speaker. I do not know and nobody else can know. The Auditor General cannot tell us. That is why he points it out. It is a fair amount of money. One court had a balance in their bank account of $24,000 in round figures. Another had a balance of $87,000 in round figures. There is no way to know whether this is the full amount or not. Let us assume it is. Mr. Speaker, unless the procedures are followed we have no way to be sure of that. Paragraph (52) - the Auditor General referred to the curious arrangement which he previously referred to.

I guess we were guilty of this. It is still going on. The lawyers in the Department of Justice still have a little account down there in which fees that they earn for services to government agencies are deposited. Then out of that money is spent. The Auditor General says that these funds in his view should be deposited tci the credit of the Newfoundland Exchequer Account. Some interesting monies have been spent out of it. Money was lent from this fund to cover an office staff Christmas Party. The loans were repaid as luck would have it. The sheriff of Newfoundland was given an advance of $1,500.

In due course the sheriff returned the amount. He was given it to enable him to pay anticipated trial expenses related to a criminal case, a perfectly proper sutject of expenditure. The Auditor General is saying and he is right, that it should not be paid for out of this fund. In fact the fund should not exist at all. This money should have been paid out of the regular subheads of the Justice Department. A loan of $3,000 was made on October 13, 1972 to the police department to enable that department to carry out certain activities. This loan was recovered on August 28, 1973. Now, what in deuce is this?

What are the police department doing with $3,000 of public money that has not been voted by the legislature? I do not know. I have not got the least idea. It may or may not have been proper. I assume it was. Uhat are they doing with this money. If they need the money to carry out their police duties as well they might, then surely, 0001

December 11. 1974 Tape 2057 ID-2 '·lr. Speaker, the government can put it in the subheads, in the estimates and the money can he paid out to them and handled from there. Paragraph (56) refers to a payment of $420,0.00 to the !Jniveristy without any appropriation. The payment was for a proper purpose. It was to the university with relation to the construction of the Thol'rpson Student Centre. The point was that the money was paid rithout any authority beinP, voted prior to the payment or suhsequent to it hy this Hcuse.

As luck would have it, it was a proper payment but it could as easily have been, say, to George "cLean hecause once the control is rroLen, l!r. Speaker, we, the House, have lost the right, have lost the ability to control expenditures out of the public treasury. It is shameful. The Newfoundland and Labrador !lousing Corporation were caught at a very old gnme of some giggery- i=okery to try to conceal the fact that they had not spent about $800,000 which had been appropriated to ther1.

Your llonour is aware that if a department does not spend the money which they are authorized to spend !,y the end of the fiscal ye'lr, !larch 31, the halance drops. Hell, a little giegery-pokery down here at the Housing Corporation involving $:irin,ono. So, in effect, Sir. the !lousing Corporation had S!)Oo,non more to spend than they were authorized to snend by this House. Kot improper, no question of impropriety but a very grave and real cruestion of the control of this House over expenditures.

The HighwEYS Department, paragraph (65), contract without public tenders or formal contracts, ei!'ht projects, ~l,100,000. I thin!: the officials should be asked, summoned before the co1nmittee. Hho authorized these contracts? Why were they given to a given company and not another? Another six projects involving $3.8 million, there were contracts but no public tenders. Again why does one company get selected? Were any of these given to our friends at Babb Construction? They got contracts without public tender on the Carbonear hospital when the present .'Iinister of Finance was :,finister of Puhlic Works.

We never had that one satisfactorily explained. It nay or may not have been proper. It certainly has never been explained. The Auditor General concludes that in his opinion section (51) noo2.

Oecember 11, 1974 Tape 2057 of t he Revenu e and Audi t Act was contravene d in that comcdl:rlents for the payment of public money occurred which were in excess of the ,ippropriation approved by the legislature. IB-3 Another one, again in the Hi ghways Department. Apparently t heir system of controlling payments is a little weak. They have paid a ~22,500 invoic e twice . Again as luck woul d have it, the Audi tor General disco vered it and the money was 1:ecove red. Otherwise, it would have been gone down the dr;iin. The same invoice, the same payment, the sar.ie pur chase was paid twi.ce.

Has cJ,e depa r tment acted to set tha t strai ght? Po they no,,, have a procedure whereby this sort of thing cannot happen again? A valid question. The curious situation of the paint used in the 1972-1973 year. I wonder if that has any rela t ion - I would like to know who is t he agent for t he paint. I wonder who it :ls. I do not know. Paragraph (70) , •·111ghways paintin g c.osts in excess of original contrac t . •· 0003

December 11, 1974. Tape 1058 RE - 1 A contract for the supply of 1972-71 paint requirements as deternined hy the DepartmP.nt of llighwavs for highroads ]ine markinr, etc. was awarded to the second lowest tenderer for a total price of !;fl2.'llR. The first question is why the second lowest tenderer? There may have heen a good reason or the,re may not. There was a reason. What I would like to know is what that reason was so that people can judge whether it was a good one or no. I suspect the answer will lie with the naJ11e of the supplier or the name of the agent for the supplier.

The note from the Auditor General 11:oes on. Sir. '' The quantity requisition was insufficient and three additional purchase orders were issued to the suoplier durinp the season, no more tenders. The company had been second on the tender orip.inally. He had ~ot the business and then three more orders were given and they were not for small amounts. You can see it if there were iust a few gallons more needed to finish paintinr. the line along the Trans Canada Highway, if there was a mile or two not done. No, Sir. the original auantity of paint ordered was 28,000 gallons annroximately, so says the Auditor General.

The additional orders covered 17,440 p.allonst well over sixty per cent of the original order. What is this all about? Is somebody petting a little pay-off on the side? Was somebody beinp, rewarded for some reason? I do not know but the suspicion is there and until a committee on the public accounts can send for the officials and send for the papers, we will not know. Maybe the committee will be back and report that it was just an error, an understandable error, an error without any malfeasance and there the matter rests.

Until it is looked into, Sir, the suspicion is there and the Auditor General's job is to report these things to us and that is why he did it. He goes on because there is more than 1ust a little underestimating and more than giv1.nr 1.t to the second lowest tenderer. ''Increases in price per r;allon were incurreci in the three supplementary orders and the cost of these unit price increases above arounted to $11,540. The total increase in the cost of traffic paint purchased for the year over the cost of the quant1.ty originally requisitioned was $59,397. Now, is this a little deal? Is somebody getting paid off?

I do not know, Sir, and I certainly do not say it was but I ask the question. This Auditor noo4

December 11, 1Q7!.,. Tape 2058 RH - 2 General's report was made public nine or ten months ago. The then Minister of Finance, the gentleman from St. .John's West tabled it in the House. Since that time tl!ere has been no word publicly to deal with this. Nobody in the administration has acted in the least to dispel the obvious and inesc;ipable inference that there was some hanky-panky. Now what was the situation? Is it the same as the George MacLean slide photos?

No, at least they got the paint but they p.ot it by being second lowest on a tenderer and then a marvellous little deal, I can just pi_cture it now, tender for the first lot and we will increase it afterwards. 28,000 pallons given to the second lowest tenderer; 17,000 p:allons then given in subsequent order without any tenderer and at a higher unit price. There is some more comment on the Jlighways Department and the traffic lines. The minister ,,;hould really have a look at his officials down there whoever is in charp:e of the tra.ffic line. The minister should hear this.

I do not know if he has read the comment or not. The 1972-73 requirements for painting of traffic lines by contract were determined by the Department of Hiphways to be,mileage to be covered, RlS miles· paint required 18,500 gallons. On the basis of these specifications tenders for painting services, now that is not the paint, we have already had a little deal on. the pa.int, the tenders for paintinr. services were issued and the bid for applying the paint at the rate of $3.25 per gallon mis accepted. He do not know whether it was low or not 1,ut th:1t was the ]-,id that was accepted, the Auditor r..eneral says.

However, by the end of the season only 600 miles approximately in highways had been covered, not 815, 601'l were covered. Remember, Mr. Speaker, they wanted 800 miles·of lines to he painted and they were going to use 18,500 r.allons of paint. That is about 2.15 gallons per mile. I am sorry, Dion'! than that, 0005

December 11, 1974 Tape 2059 PK - 1 twenty-one point five gallons per mile. I am doing arithmetic in my head and I do not claim to be a calculating wiz. But let us take, the ratios will hold true, twenty-one point five. Lo and behold! What happened? Remember whoever the lucky fellow was who got this contract was being paid not by the inch nor not by the yard nor not by the centimeter nor the meter under the new metric system but being paid by the gallon slapped down. Only 600 miles had been honoured by having a coat of paint placed upon them, the little lines, the traffic control lines.

But 31,565 gallons of paint have been used, fifty gallons a mile. What a lovely - you know, I do not know if it is appropriate here or not but it is certainly relevant. The Salvas Cotmnission in Quebec was set up by Monsieur LaSage and his administration to look into the hanky-panky of the Union National Government in the early sixties. The Salvas COllllllission found that one of the great rip offs in Quebec, in the Duplessis years, and if history is any judge of, that is saying a lot, Sir, one of the great rip offs was in paint contracts.

A minister went to jail over it, a foreign minister, Monsieur Joseph Begin went to jail for being involved in rip offs involving paint. Now that is why I get suspicious. The Auditor General has pointed out a very curious set of facts regarding the supply of the paint that goes on the highways. The amounts in themselves are not important nor is the subject. The important thing about the subject is getting them down and the Safety Council complained, drivers complained and people all over the province complained.

The important thing in this, is that, in almost every aspect the department's handling of the purchase, an application for paint, was questioned by the Auditor General and no reputation has been made. There may be one. I would invite any honourable minister or any honourable gentleman for that matter who has it in his possession to give us that reputation, to give us the explanation. There is a reason whatever it is. There is a reason for this state of affairs. Were there some little friends getting OOOci

December 11, 1974 Tape 2059 PK - 2 rewarded, 5upplying the paint and then being taken on ! The minister shakes his head. I mean, he will have to stand and say it and the committee then will have to look into it but it is the committee's job, and a proper job. I submit, one of the reasons why there should be a committee. Who got the contract? Why was it given to the second lowest bidder? Why1 And why, Mr. Speaker, was he then given three contracts for sixty per cent more, at a higher unit price? And then why was somebody hired to lay paint at so much a gallon? They figured twenty-one gallons a mile would do it.

It came out that he put down fifty gallons a mile, being paid by the gallon. Instead of getting sixty dollars or seventy dollars a mile, he got one hundred and fifty dollars or one hundred and sixty dollars a mile. You know, not a lot of money but too much if there were crookedness. One cent is too much if there is crookedness. The only way to find out is to have the report of the Auditor General and have the matter looked into. Get Mr. MacDonald, the Deputy Minister of the Department, the permanent head, Mr. Gordon MacDonald he is responsible in law for the expenditures of that department or Mr.

Knight if he were the deputy minister then, have them before the committee or bring up the accountants, bring up the vouchers. Who authorized these things? We have a right to know. Mr. Speaker, the Auditor General makes a number of other references. I could go on. If any honourable gentlemen wished I would be delighted to make some references again to the weakening of control of the House over funds. Now, Sir, all governments, I suppose, do things differently in power than they did in opposition. There seems to be a great change that comes over a crowd of men whether they are on that side or this side of a House.

I am certainly not going to say that the cabinet of which I was a part were perfect. If the debate is to proceed on that levelJwe will have an interesting debate which will be completely sterile of any benefit to the people of this province but we can have it and when HOOi

.IL December 11, 1974 Tape 2059 PK - 3 I speak in closing the debate, if that is the tenor the debate is taking 11 shall join in with a heart and a-half but I hope we do not have that, because it would be sterile and counter productive. What I want is a collllllittee set up now to deal with it. I want a committee set up to look into this. I referred only to the most recent report, the report on the current year( The year ended 31st. March, 1974 and it bas not yet been tabled. The year ended six or seven months ago )which should be shortly coming into thP. handR of thP. Mini~ter of Finance and he 1s required to table it immed.i.ately. I think the law is fifteen days is it,or something? · UOOd

December 11, 1974 Tape no. 2060 Page 1 - MW anyway he is required to table it very quickly. He has no choice. This is the most recent report we have. We can go back through all of them. In years past,they tend to be even thicker because the public accounts were bound together with the report of the Auditor General. That io longer is so. In years past, there may have been more paragraphs. There was one year, Mr. Howley, the Auditor General, who is doing a magnificent . job - Mr.

Howley succeeded in drawing the ire of the deputy minister of the day and the administration of the day and it ended up in a confrontation here in the House, with the deputy minister and his officials over there and the auditor general and his people over here in a thundering, great row. It came to the sum total of nothing. Leaving aside the points that the Auditor General had quarrelled with and he had a right to ~uarrel with and so forth, the deputy minister, the comptroller and the Auditor General differed substantially on accounting practices. One could take whichever view one wished to take.

In any event two honest men, expressing their honest opinion differed. - It is not an uncommon proceeding in .the world. I am concerned now with going on from here. I would -like to see the Auditor General's committee look into the use of government aircraft, My colleague from St, Barbe North has a question on the Order Paper about that, I was told that the Premier had the private use of a helicopter this summer. For two weeks he came down to the Gander River each day.

He was sort of staying there as the people's guest for two weeka at the cabin and each morning the helicopter, given fine weather, would come and pick him up and carry him off fishing. Now if that is so, I would submit that it is an improper use of government funds. I would like to know whether the Minister of Tourism has paid back to the province any of the money which was spent to provide him with a private car, a government car for private purposes a couple of years ago. He gave the car back after it 000~

December 11, 1974 Tape no. 2060 Page 2 was exposed that he had it. Has he repaid the money? The man drew a car allowance in respect of that same period, as does every minister and so do I. It is not unknown for a minister to have the use of a government car even while he is drawing a car allowance. There are a number, I suppose hundreds of precedents of that and they are all, as far as I know, perfectly in order. For a man to have exclusive use and control of a car for four months is wrong. The Premier admitted that at the time. What has been done to recover the money{ It is a very relevant question.

Now, Sir, I said what I have wanted to say at this stage in the debate. I have not tried to be partisan. I could be. There is material in this for a cracking-good speech. I am more interested, Dlllch more interested, in making a motion to have a committee set up. I 1 hope the motion will be accepted. Lately, there has been a flurry of activity. My colleague the gentleman from Fogo , who is acting as our House Leader, tells me that he has received certain communications from the gentleman from St. John's East.

The Government House Leader and t would deduce from these conversations that the government intend ,to set up this committee. I hope so. It will not be able to get very much work done because it will lapse with prorogation. Then it should be reappointed. Under' the new rules, I think it must be reappointed very quickly when the House opens early in the New Year. I do not know when it will open in the New Year but whenever it opens the House should quiclly move to appoint this committee. I have not looked at the new rules, specifically, recently with this point in mind. I think it requires very quick action. Mr.

Speaker, I would hope that when it is set up it will get down to work. I propose two of my colleagues to serve on the committee. I believe that they will bring distinction to its work and that they will bring the proper spirit and a willingness to dig into this matter. UOiO

.L December 11, 1974 Tape no . 2060 Page 3 SOiiE HON. MEMBERS : Hear ! Hear J MR. ROBER.TS : My friend frOlll Bell Island is chaiman of the commit.tee. The gentleman from Hermitage, my fr.iend and colleague, as the c,ther member. I would think that these two men w1i1 - One of them hss a great knowledge of public affairs and another has a great knowledge of private affairs which together, they will bring a formidable array of intellect, skill and devotic;,n to the interests of the people of this province to bear upon thie questi.on. AiiJ HON, MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. ROBERTS: I leave my colleagues to decide which is which, Sir. Ilene my colleagues to decide this. 13 0 ~.1

December 11, 1974, Tape 2061, Page 1 -- apb The gentleman for Placentia West, Sir, did not even get to be No.(2) so I do not see what he is so concerned about. I would hope the government would accept the motion. I think it is a valid subject for a House of Assembly. Members opposite supported it when they were in opposition, they supported it as a government, it was in 1972. They fell away from that high standard and in 1973 they made no action at all on the question of a public accounts committee. It never came before the chamber.

In 1974 the government made no motion so I put a motion down on the eighth day of February. Here it is now the eleventh day of December, the day of the Prayer Breakfast and I am glad to see that some honourable gentlemen were praying early in the morning. Your Honour prayed, my friend from Hermitage prayed, the 11inister of Justice prayed, the Minister of Tourism, who generally is not conceded to have a prayer, in fact did pray. I did not see any other honourable gentlc•men present praying although my vision may have been clouded at that hour of the morning.

Any other honourable gentlemen present prayed - A,.1 HON. MEMBER: The Member for St. John's South. MR. ROBERTS: Was the Member for St. John's South present and prayed? A:~ 1101\. MEMBER: They are having pangs of conscience. MR. ROBERTS: The honourable gentleman from St. John's South, Sir, he too has a prayer. If only he had the courage to go with his prayers he would be okay. ~r. Speaker, I put the motion forward and I hope it will be accepted. I asswne the House Leader is going to speak for the government in reply and I would hope he will accept it.

If he wants in behalf of the government or if any honourable gentleman wants to play the game of "What went on in the past?" I will join in with a will and a half. It will be great fun. If they want to put the debate on those levels, let them. I have confined my remarks exclusively to the most recent report. I have all the others and uo -~ ') .t. '-

December 11, 1974, Tape 2061, Page 2 -- apb would love to get into them. It would be great fwi. I would hope whether we have that kind of dickering or no the 1tovernment will accept this motion that the committee will be appointed. They will not be able to get a great deal of work done now because ten months of the year have gone by. I understand we are to prorogue when this Christmas Session adjourns, which will be about Boxing Day Morning the way we are gain~, and then I hope they will be reappointed early in the new year. I move the motion and I do so with every hope that it will be accepted. 'fR.

SPEAKER: The honourable Minister without Portfolio: ~IR. ~SHALL: Mr. Speaker, with all of the talk about praying the honourable Leader of the Opposition has spent about an hour praying but really preying upon the credibility of the people of this province. Really, Mr. Speaker, I cannot concede how the Leader of the Opposition can get up now in opposition and actually stand in his place and say; "Yes, I voted against this." He voted against it more than once, he voted against it time and time again and still retain any kind - SOME HON . MEMBERS: (Inaudible) MR • MARSHALL : silence or - MR. THOMS: MR.

SPEAKER: :-i:R. MARSHALL: If I may, Mr. Speaker, I would like to speak in We wish you would. Order please! Order please! Order please! And retain any kind of credibility whatsoever. How in the name of heavens! Now I know there are people who will be instant experts on this, who will take different stands. That great representative in Newfoundland, the Lord Thompson of ,~ewfoundland, Mr. William Callahan will spew for th in "The Daily News" also, giving us all sorts of advice on what we should do and what we should not do with respect to this and why he took different stands. I say, Mr.

Speaker, it is a very, it is really a very sick society, that can sit back and see individuals such as the Leader of

December 11, 1974, Tape 2061, Page J -- apb the Opposi tion take a stand such as this and not ho1-d him to his previ ous s ta cements. God in Heaven! Is there no accountability left in this province at a.11? so~ HON. MEMBERS: Hear : llear ! HR. MARSHALL: The honourable the Leader of the Opposition gees up in this House and spends about an hour readin g off the report of the Auditor General and he comes out as only he can do it, as only he can do it and Tha11k God, I cannot, he comes out with all of his partisan stuff on the Auditor General's report.

I do not know if it is reaction or what it is but at the end of it say·s on very sonorous tones; "I hope that this is not going to be a partisan deba·te . " The fact of the matter, Mr. Speaker, is that we were for a public accounts committee, we were for it in opposition, 1,;e are for it in government and we heartily endorse public accounts committees. As a matter of fact, one of the first mves of this HOl4 ·-

December 11, 1974. Tape 2062 RH ~ l government was to reform the rules of the !'ouse of Assembly. Consequentlv we have things which were unknown in this Honse in recent yearg such as a question and answer period. ,n1en we were in opposition, Mr. Speaker, you were not allowed, there was nothing provided on the Order Paper. There was no order of answers to questions or neither was there any order on the Order Paper with respect to oral questions. AN HONOURAllLE MEMBER: That is not true. 'ffi.

MARSHALL: You had to jump up before Orders of the Day were called and you were constantly told that there were no questions to be asked because they were not of an urp:ent nature. When we reformed these rules and many others, one of them was a stand to provide for certain standinP, connnittees in this House. Now, obviously the Leader of the Opposition when he was referring to it - he misses I think, the member for White Ray South. He obviously must because he did not really address himself to these rules. The first thin~ we did was - MR. ROBERTS: The rules were not in effect - MR.

MARSHALL: The rules are in effect now. MR. ROBERTS: That is true. ~m. MARSHALL: For the provision of standing committees in this House. But as with a lot of things that have been done by this government, lasting benefit will endure after this Assembly is over because these standing committees cannot-and all the Leader of the Opposition can do and he can read, all he has to do is read new rule 84(

a) which says, "At the commencement of the first session of each Assembly certain committees will be appointed." MR. ROBERTS: What has that got to do with today? MR. 'fARSHALL: Certain col111!littees will be appointed, Mr, Speaker,• and any oerson who has gone through any kind of kinderparten, I suppose, in parlia­ mentary procedure will know that a standing committee is one which stands, stays in, is constituted and remains for the whole Assembly. It does not end when a session is over as any select committee would be but it is a standing committee for the whole session. '!"hat is why it is provided that these connnittees will be appointed on the first session of each Assembly OOlo

December 11, 1974. Tape 2062 1m - 2 and so they wi 11 be, ~•r. Speaker. So in twenty or th1 rty vears whc,n the Liheral Party ~et back in power apain, if they ever do, they will then be forced for the first time in their existence, they will be forced to appoint a standinp committee on public accounts. "low what rlo we c!o in the meantime? Have we chanred in the meantime?

One of the first thinp.s that we dirl when we were in government was appoint a select committee on puhlic accounts. 'Jow that haprenecl to be the seconcl select col'lillittee on public accounts, I believe since 19l19, but certainlv in recent days. The Leader of the Oprosition r.eferred to the other one. The first one was appointed in the dyinr., gurglinp years of the Smallwood administration and that was appointerl, 'lr. Speaker, because I was a mell'her of the M,semhly at the time.

The Leader of the Opposition was on it at the time herause he voted against the motion time and time for a standin~ committee on pnhlic accounts but in those <lays, ~r. <;peaker, when Mr. <;maJlwood said to the member for White lJay North, "Thou §halt serve." lle rlid serve anrl he served on th1tt committee. l-!luat ~•as the purpose of that co111mittee?

The ptirT>ose nf. that committee was to nrevent us in the opposition from doing e~actJy the thing that the Leader of the ()!"'!"'os:ltion was doinr: today in th:ls new and !!lore democratic Assembly, in order words, reading the report on the public accounts hecnuse when·~ver any of the members) t! en opposite., r,ot U!J to refer to the Auditor General's report. the l'remiPr of the Province, Mr. Smallwood, as was his wont, would r.et up and say, ''Ah! Ha! We cannot talk about that. J-1'r.

Speaker, because the items of the Auditor General's report have been referred to a puhli c accounts committee and it is under consideration by the committee so it cannot be talked about by the House.'' ,qow that was the func