Manitoba Hansard — 6 April 1981 (Sitting 52B, 31st Legislature, 5th Session)

31-5-52b

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMB LY OF MANITOBA Monday, 6 April, 1981 Time - 8:00 p.m. CONCURRENT COMM ITTEES OF SUPPL Y SUPPLY - NATURAL RESOURCES MR. CHAIRMAN, Arnold Brown (Rhineland): This Commit tee will come to order. 1. (aX2) - pass - the Member for Ruperts land . MR. HARVEY BOSTROM: Mr. Chairman, I believe my colle ague has a few questions.

While he's gathering his wits and his papers about him perhaps 1 can pose a couple of quick questions to the Minister and ask him with respect to the Fisheries since we were on that topic when we broke for the supper hour, if he has had any thoughts about any improvements or changes to the licensing policy re garding the issuing of licences to commercial fishermen in Manitoba and if so what policies or changes he's proposing. HON. HARRY J. ENNS (Lakeside): Mr.

Chairman, I've had thoughts over the supper hour about the course that the debate on the Estim ates in the Department of Natural Resources are going and I really would ask memb ers of the comm ittee to consider the practice that's been established and laid out before us, that we proceed with the items as listed in the Estimates. I can see us getting into nothing but difficulty if we do otherwise. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1. (aX2) - pass; 1. (aX3) - pass; 1. (aX4) - pass; 1. (bX 1) - pass - the Member for St. George. MR. BILLIE URUSKI: Yes, Mr.

Chairman, dealing specifically with the Manitoba Water Commission, there have been requests and petitions and meetings held with respect to the flows of water from Lake Manitoba via Lake Pineimuta, Lake St. Martin and the Dauphin River into Lake Winnipeg, problems that have been raised in this last year or two were to the effect primarily of low water levels in the downstream lakes, Mr. Chairman.

The Water Commission a number of years ago held hearings with respect to the regulation of Lake Manitoba and if I recall generally, I stand to be corrected somewhat, but recommendations were that the range of elevations that Lake Manitoba was generally held at, were fairly fine-tuned in terms of a two-foot range.

Ho wever the effects downstream were from time to time so severe that would cause and have caused a loss of productive land, loss of wildlife in terms of the flooding of nesting areas, muskrats, trapping areas, and as well in periods of low water, problems with fishing during the winter seasons and the like.

If I re call, the Water Comm ission indica ted th at th ere should be a minimum flow of water that would be allo wed through the Fairford Dam, but in order to maintain the regulation of Lake Manitoba within the range of 812 to 815 , if memory serves me right, somewhere close to that 811 to 814, within that range, all right 81 1 to 813, that the effects could not be minimized. Mr. Chairman, I attended a meeting last fall or early winter with respect to this very problem of low water levels on the lake.

The Minister knows that there have been historically, requests from residents around Lake Manitoba that the mean elevations of the lake be dr opped by some six inches, but regulated in such a way as to bring about a more uniform flow of water downstream. What I'd like to know and I'd lik e the Minister's views and the - depa �tment's views, as to whether that is accomplishable in terms of attempting to bring about a more steady flow or more adequate supply of water to the lakes downstream, and thus preventing the severe fluctuations th at have occurr ed historically.

It's common knowledge that the structure of the Fairford Dam and the operati ons ther eof are primarily for the regulation of Lake Manitoba, with very little regard for the downstream resources. So, Mr. Chairman, I would li ke to know wha t the government has in its plans in terms of a revision - 1 don't know if we need another review or another major study - whether or not there is consideration to allow a more uniform flow from Lake Manitoba in through the Dauphin River. MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, the dir ect answer to the Member for St.

George is that the department is not considering a change in the regulation of water levels on Lake Manitoba. I'm advised, and I'm certainly aware of the concerns that the member exp resses, that the department has however managed , and certainly is attempting to better manage in the past year, to graduate the fluctuations somewhat finer than has been the past, where admittedly in order to maintain the levels within the prescribed heights of 811, 813, there were occasions where rather severe or fast draw-downs or build-ups were brought about.

The dir ector of Water Resources advised me that they have fine-tuned that to some extent to lessen the effect of the fluctuations to more gradually bring about the changes. Now whether tha t has any mea ningful improvement or impa ct on the downstream areas that the member is expressing concern about, I suppose is perhaps questionable in the sense that it's difficult particularly at low flows to provide for that kind of steady flow of water that the member is talking about.

But the member is aware as I am aware that the study that was unde rtaken some two-three years ago, now is it or perhaps even more, four or five years ago 1 believe it was, among the many studies that have been undertaken with respect to that body of water, what we don't see or would likely see any reason for it producing any major deviation of the management that the lake is presently under, so we do not perceive any changes with respect to the operation of the Fairford Dam and/or the levels that have been established, or what the lake has been operated under for the last number of years. MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Member from St. George. MR. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, can the Minister indicate whether the contention that the lake - the 2443

Nlonday, 6 April, 1981 mean of the lake - if it was lowered by six inches within the parameters of 811 and 813, whether or not a more regulated flow could be achie�ed as a downstream effect through the Fairford Dam?

If there was a bit more leverage, if I can use that term, or a bit more wider range that would be opEm to the branch in terms of re gulating the lock� . at the Fairford Dam, whether a more meaningfu regime could be implemented downstream, or is it simply a case that in order to minimize the dow nstream effects one would have to continue the mgulation and go ahead with the long studied dam at t ,e outlet of Lake St. Martin and onto the Dauphin Rivm. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR.

ENNS: I think the honourable member is aware and certainly I'm aware as the ML A for a good part of the people that are active and are concerned about the levels of Lake Manitoba, that in l)rder for the department to maintain its comm itmer 1t to the levels that - I won't say are totally agreed upon - but have been found as a result of studies, as being the reasonable ones. The only major improvement that could be considered for maintaining a better level of water in Lake St. Martin, would be to provide a further control structure, a dam of some ki nd, on that body of water.

The type of information that the department gathers over the winter, the kind of runoffs that can be expected or cannot be E1xpected, as is likely the case this year, preclude us from gambling if you like, with operating as a matter of set policy at the lower level of the permissiblE• regime. We would stand a very serious problem of having Lake Manitoba operate under unaccept 3bly low levels. The advice that I receive from the department is that the solution to maintaining better lake levels on Lake St.

Martin would call for some substantial capital undertakings at the outlet of that lake to in effect, regulate and store more acceptat le water levels in that body of water. MR. URUSKI: Mr.

Chairman, by doing thai - let's say that was an agreed upon solution, which I gather from some past knowledge was a fairly E•xpensive solution in terms of the structures that would be required - can the Minister indicate the ef fect that it would have, a further structure, on the regulation of Dauphin River, where we kn ow that we'r e dropping approximately 100 feet between the two elevations of Lake Manitoba, as to Lake Winnipeg? Where does the bulk of the gradient come in? Is it along the Dauphin River, or is it bet wE en Lake Manitoba and Lake St. Martin?

What V!Ould be required to provide more adequate flows on Dauphin River, where we kn ow that if there were not adequate structures provided, we know that the pickerel fisheries in terms of spawning grounds and the like, would be impacted on? As I un jerst and, Lake St. Martin is one of the prime area; for the spawning of pickerel in the Interlake. MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, I belie ve the member probably knows the answer to this lon�tstanding concern that would probably involve, in addition to structure at the outlet of Lake St. Martin along with channel improvements to the Dauphin Ri•ter itself.

I'm advis ed that the major portion of the gradient 2444 takes place on the Dauphin River itself but the member is als o probably aware from his own knowledge that those are projects of substantial size in terms of capital dollars required and as I indicated to the member, are not being considered at this time. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for St. George. MR. URUSKI: Mr.

Chairman, I'd like to ask the Minister in terms of, these projects are not considered in time, whether or not this item could be raised in terms of a federal-provincial context with respect that there have been dis cussions within the Tourist Association, within other groups in this area, in fact the Lake Winnipegosis-Lake Manitoba area, to look at the provision of a waterway for small craft; whether or not some interest between the two levels of government might produce some desirability for the channeling for small craft between the two major lake s within this province; whether or not some discussions along this line might be entertained with repect to the funding.

I would like to get from the Minister, if he would have them available to him, the Estimates that were available at the time for the works that would be required in order to regulate this area, what the costs were? If I recall, it was in the neighborhood of $3 million or thereabouts, but that would be on 1975 dollars or thereabouts. I wonder if the Minister could confirm that. MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, I believe in the first instance that the area was never under that type of intensive study that produced real and hard cost figures.

I think the member is correct when he cites general ized figur es in excess of $3 million and certainly would be well in excess of that in 1981 or '82. As to the question of whether or not there has been any discussion in this area, possible federal government involvement, I would have to say no. That doesn't preclude that at some point in time that it couldn't take place.

I would have to put on the record though that there would be, in terms of priority of funds including federal funds under any shared agreements, there would be an emphasis and a concern with respect to resolving drought problems that, in areas where there has been a considerable amount of advanced study undertaken by organizations such as PFRA - and I'm referring specifically to some projects in the water-short southwestern part of the province - as well as some more immediate and current stud ies that are under way with the Federal Government, recently concluded or signed an agreement with the Federal Government that takes a particularly hard look at what can be done with the possible div ersion of Assiniboine River water into the Carmen-Carberry aquifers and into the possibility of whether or not some additional surplus storage or reservoir should be constructed.

What I'm trying to ind icate, Mr. Chairman, through you to the Honourable Member for St. George, is that in the competition for funds at this particular time and particularly in lieu of the kind of weather conditions that we've been experiencing last year, and what with half of Saskatchewan flying over us tonight, are likely to continue to put pressure on that kind of priorization. MR. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, I realize that no doubt from time to time that proble ms in other areas

Monday, 6 April, 1981 create more difficult problems with respect to some other projects. With respect to the Water Commission, Mr. Chairman, wha t stud ies, what works has the Minister currently - I understand they are doing I belie ve some work on the Red River - could he indicate what he is proposing as their work for the next year? Are they looking at the diversions that he has spoken about with respect to irrigation and filling aquifers with good water and trying to see what impact that will have on water storage in areas that have less good water quality than we enjoy in the Interlake?

What works has he in store for the Water Commission? MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, the member is correct. The pressure that's developing on the department for up-to-date and reliable grou ndwater information is by far one of the most acute. The Water Commission is currently dir ected to study the matter; consultants have been eng aged . We are re ceiving an unprecedented number of applications for the use of groundw ater by farmers who are interested in irriga tion farming, sprinkle r farming.

We have a number of situations where we have had to deny permits for the use of that water simply because we don't have the necessary information as to supply. It would be ill-advised on our part to encourage the invest ment that's involv ed in intensive sprinkl er irrigation farming without that knowledge. So that is very much at the top of the list of priorities within the department and is engaging the activities of the Water Commission at this time. MR. URUSKI: Mr.

Chairman, I seem to recall, or I believe that the PFRA have done studies, or are in the process of doing studies, I believe have done studies, I'm not sure if in Manitoba and the Minister can confirm that, on the effects and projects of the nature that he speaks about.

I'd like to know to what extent this information is available in Manitoba as to the potential and what specific areas is the Water Commission looking at, at the present time seeing as the PFRA have done some work - I've read about it but I'm going from memory as to what area they have looked at - so that there wouldn't be an overlap between the two agencies? MR. ENNS: Mr.

Chairman, I'm advised that there are two aspects to this, the study that I referred to that the Manitoba Water Commission is undertaking at the present time is a question of sorting out an appropriate licensing proced ure, that ma kes available supplies to the potential users. The work that we are doing in co-operation with the PFRA is the technical exploratory work in determining what the resource is that's available to us in terms of ground water.

I should draw to the attention of the members of the Commission that a recently concluded agreement with the Federal Government involv ed some $9 million that hopefully will enable us to accelerate this exploration work, this technical work on the part of the department , and also lead to wha t we call "drought-p roofing projects " of the kind that I mentioned a little earlier, whether it's the diversion of waters avai lable to water-short areas from the Assinib oine, where there is the construction of additional surface storage reservoirs.

This is the kind of activity that is taking place within the branch. 2445 MR. URUSKI: Along with that of course would have to be, I would assume, further control works along some of the dr ainage systems, di ver sions and storages along the present draina ge systems, conservation work like trees and the like in areas which are prone to soil erosion as well as ground erosion. Are those kinds of options being looked at? MR. ENNS: I think a wide range of options are being looked at; some very specific, potential major projects are being looked at.

It would be premature for me to indicate in greater detail inasmuch as it served no purpose to raise expectations if in fact, they don't prove out. But some of these projects have been looked at for some time. They are being updated. They are being looked at from the point of view of the kind of demands that modern agriculture is now placing on this resource. The rapid ity with whic h div ersification in farm crops and farm planning methods are occurring in Manitoba are putting a very heavy strain on the resources of the department to come up with the answers fast enough. Mr. Downey is a very impatient man.

He thinks that there's a pool of water like the size of the Pacific Ocean underneath our province, and we're not quite sure that's the case. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1. (bX 1) - the Member for St. George. MR. URUSKI: Yes, Mr. Chairman, I just wanted to get back to the Lake Manitoba situation. Can the Minister tell me whether the branch has studied and what their advic e would be, on the impact of regulating the mean on Lake Manitoba within six inches less than what has been the range up till this date?

What is the impact on the resources around Lake Manitoba and what would one expect if that water was available to be let through the dam at Fairford, whether or not a more satisfactory range of elevations or at least flow could be ach ieved, whether that would not be possible and what the impacts of that would be? MR. ENNS : Mr. Chairman, that kind of a study has not been undertaken.

It certai nly could be, and I must admit to some interest in the matter myself coming under some of the same pressures that the honour able member comes under perhaps for somewhat di fferent reasons, but from adjacent ranchers and farmers that are always looking for that extra six inches to cut an extra 180 acres of hay off around the edges of Lake Manitoba.

However, I wouldn't want to leave the impression, that I think the concern the department has to maintain is that while even accepting the problems it may create in discharging the water to maintain the upper level, there is precious littl e we can do if we fall considerably below the accepted level, and the costs to other users and resources around Lake Manitoba have to be borne in mind.

I'm thinking particularly of some of the wildlife resources, the muskrat farming, the fishing industry itself, although Lake Manitoba is not a year-round fisheries operation, but it is very important to those families and those people who do derive a reasonable amount of income during the short winter season. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Minister of Agriculture.

____________________________ l �_o_n_d_a�y_, _6_A�p�r_il_, _1 _98 _1 ________ ____ ____ __ __ __ ____ __ HON. JAMES E. DOWNEY (Arthur): Mr. Chairman, I'll try and be very brief, but I think it's important to note that the work that is being done by the Water Commis sion is going to be work that will in fact give some dir ection to the department and the people of Manitoba. There is a strong desire by people who lrve within the reaches of some of the underground ac1uifers, to buy irrigation equipment to further give ttemselv es an assurance of moisture to produce their c ·ops.

In a lot of cases, people who have traditionally produced crops in these areas are now seei ng what the actual advanta ges are through irrigation and I think it's important tha t a long-term poli cy in licensi ng program be put in place because of the amounts of dolla rs that have to be invested in the kinds of equipment that are available to them. It would not be fair to not have in place a licensing and in fact, a transfer mechanism of water rights and per mils that would facilitate the ongoing use of the water.

Although it may be limited use, it has to be able to be accommodated in those particular light1:, so that we know for the farmers, that the farmers �now that there's an availability of water and that w II in fact continue to be available to the land. Of course, we're all aware of the fact that if there aren't sufficient supplies, then we would be best off not to encourage those people to get into heavy financing of irrigation equipment. MR. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, I'll leave that topic for a minute with respect -(I nterjection)- no, no, Mr. Chairman, with respect to the Minister of Agriculture's comments.

I wanted to get ba•:k to the Minister of Natural Resources when he indicated that he would have some concerns what the impact might be on the resource users around Lake Manitoba should that six-inch range be modif ied to some degree. I think the Minister should check, and he may confirm, I rec all the work that the Water Com mission did and that goes back probably a decade now on Lake Mani toba and the y were primarily inte rested in the reg ulation of Lake Manitoba with little re gard, or at le< st their parameters of study were of little regard, for the downstream effects.

Although they recogr ,ized the impact downstream the study, if I recall •:orrectly, was to deal with primarily the modus operar di of the Fairford Dam in terms of how it was being handled, whether or not the dam operation wa s being operated in such a way as to maintain the range of levels. I think the Water Commission did :onclude that because of the range of two feet that the operation of the dam was working relatively well with respect to maintaining the water levels on Lake Manitoba. But, Mr.

Chairman. while the Lake Manito )a range was being met very well within that two-foot range, the effects downstream from time to tirne were devastat ing. Although we are now, in Manitoba, in the second year of a potential drought, we did have some cause for concern in '77 I believe, there are those other periods.

If I could convince the Minister to say that since he doesn't have the information of what impact there would be on the other r•3Sources and provided that this would have some t1eneficial effect of gi ving more of a stable flow of water downstream. that's really all that is being de,sired by the users of the lakes downstream is to try and move 2446 away as much as possible from the fluctuations but yet try and have a greater flow of water on a continuous basis. Mr.

Chairman, farmers around Lake Manitoba, I bel ieve the Lake Manitoba Floo d Commit tee, historically have attempted to convince governments that at least during the period in June that the lake level should be dr awn down that additional six inches, to permit the very things, the uses, that the Minister suggested such as hay-cutting and the like. At least their position was and one couldn't argue very much against it because by the end of June the hatching season had already passed and if the lake was drawn down the other resources would not be adversely affected in terms of that period of time.

Later on in the fall there would be a possibility of drawing the lake back into the mean area with respect to the former mean and be able to possibly sti ll maintain a better flow for the people downstream. That's really what I'm talking about and if the Minister indicates that we really don't have that kind of an assessment and that kind of information, I urge him to move ahead with that - I don't think it would take that much - in terms of work because some of the basic data was collected in the Lake Manitoba study.

It would be a matter of updating that data, running some calculations and doing some simula tions, maybe on the computer if those programs have been put on and be able to get some kind of an impact with respect to those levels. I would urge the Minister to move at least in that area. Mr.

Mi nister you've ind icated that you have received pre ssures, both of us have as representatives of the east side of Lake Manitoba, and the representations that have been made and continue to be made bear enough merit for that further investig ation, even if that data is not available, to at least be able to say, yes, we've looked at it, either it is possible or it isn't possible and the only alternatives remai ning are the dam and that is done. But if this area has not been thoroughly investigated I urge you to undertake that review. MR.

CHAIRMAN: 1. ( b)( 1) pass; 1. (b) (2) pass; 2.(a X1) pass; 2.( aX2l pass; 2.(bX 1) pass. The Member for Rupertsland. MR. HARVEY BOSTROM: Mr. Chairman, I believe that this would be an appropriate time to discuss the policies of the department with respect to the people who work within the department and indicate to the Minister that it has come to our attention that there has cer tainl y been, over the last few years, a significant morale problem within the department. Mr.

Chairman, I think that is evidenced by the perse cuting of civil servants in the department who happen to express views that may be different from those of the Minister and/or the government. Now this particular department has had several Ministers in charge of the department and the present Minister has only been here a short time. However, I think that he has to bear responsibility for the policy of the government with respect to how civil servants within the department are treated.

I refer to a particular case where one of the departmental people was suspended for a week without pay when he was apparently accused of making comments as a member of the Manitoba Naturalist Society. Apparently he was told by the

Monday, 6 April, 1981 Deputy Minister at that time to refrain from criticizing the branch, the department or its programs before any group organization or the news media. In effect, Mr. Chairman, he was I believe asked to withdraw from his association with the Manitoba Naturalist Society.

I'd ask the Minister if is the policy of his government and his department to so order the lives of people who work within the go vernment and public service, that they should not be allowed to be members of non-political organizations and be able to express their professional opinion while being members of those non-political organizations, even though at tim es perhaps in expressing their professional opinion they may be at odds with the particular dir ection in which the government may be going. I would ask the Minister if he could comment on his impression of that policy. MR. ENNS: Mr.

Chairman, the honourable member ackn owledges that my stewa rdship of the department is relatively brief this time around and I'm not personally apprised of all the matters that he raises. I am aware that it inevitably happens that when fairly substantial and major reorganization occurs that melds in, merges in di fferent divisions, notably the Parks Division into Natural Resourc es, when these changes occur they are, can and do provide instances that are unsettling to staff.

There is a re sponsibili ty I bel ieve within the department and the senior personnel people within the department are charged with that resp onsibility to ensure that there's a deg ree of equity in terms of job classifications, in terms of rate of pay, in terms of responsibilities and when a reorganization takes place some difficulties occurr. To suggest, or to attempt to suggest to committee members that this did not happen within the reorganized Department of Natural Resources, would be less than candid.

I'm advised however that in a very relatively short period of time a large number of staff have come to recognize that within the reorganized department there has been a considerable exp ansion of improvement to their careers. I'm advised that in the past year or less some 50 promotions were made in this rest ructuring that occurred when di fferent divisions or sections of government came under the umbrella of the Department of Natural Resources. I'm not suggesting that al ways ha ppened with every body's concur renc e or to every body's satisfaction.

But I'm advised by senior staff that we are well on the way towards creating an effective department with a growi ng, heightened morale to carry out the respo nsibilit ies that the di fferent empl oyees throughout the department have. MR. BOSTROM: Mr. Chairman, in that regard perhaps I could put the question di rectly to the Minister then. Is it the policy of the government or his department to disallow a member of the Civil Service or of his department to be a member of the Manitoba Naturalist Society or any such group or non-polit ical organiza tion?

And while being a member of such an organization that they be disallo wed to express an informed opinion of a tech nical or philosophical nature while being a member of tha t organiz ation? Can the Minister perhaps comment on that and tell us what the present policy is? 2447 MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, I'm not aware of and I don't bel ieve there exist any such rules or regulations and certainly no such specific direction has gone from this Minister's office to any individual staff member.

However, I would be the very first to acknowledge that staff members have a particular respo nsibility to their department in assisting and in helping to carry out the pol icies of the day, the policies of the government of the day in such a way that they are not impeded, but that they are hel ped to a successful conclusion, a successful carrying out of those policies.

Any action taken on the part of any civil servant that could be construed to be contrary to the interests of the department to carrying out a specific policy, would certainly be brought to the attention of senior staff within the department or indeed the Minister and commente d upon. The indi vidual would then have to examine his own position as to whether or not that kind of behaviour was acceptable in his long-term interests in carrying out his responsibilities within the department. MR.

BOSTROM: Is the Minister saying then that as far as he is concerned that members of the Civil Service are not disallo wed from being members of non-political organizations while they're members of the Civil Service? MR. ENNS: Certainly. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2.(bX 1) - pass - the Member for Rupertsland. MR. BOSTROM: The other question I have, Mr. Chairman, I would like to know if the Minister plans to continue and build upon the police image that seems to be imposed on the department. I refer by police image to the blue and white RCMP-Iooking trucks which have been int rod uced into the Cons ervat ion Officer Section.

I also ask him to comment on rumours that the department is considering the conservation officers using side arms and if such is the case, could the Minister expand on that and tell us what his intentions are with respect to that police image of the department? MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, there's absolutely no foundation to any suggestion that our conservation officers should start carrying side arms.

There's also no truth to any suggestion that because of the current impasse that the Attorney-General has with negot iating a new RC MP agreement with the Province of Manitoba, that our force of blue and white trucks should take over highway patrol or anything of that nature. I must indicate to the honourable members though that quite to the contrary of any negative image that the enforcement arm of the department has created as suggested by the honourable member, we have received some very positive comments about their appearance on the scene.

I can suggest to the honourable members that the department now is receiving inquiries from federal parks people as to how to resolve some of their problems of rowdiness and unwanted behaviour in their park system because of the success quite frankly that the department particularly in the last

_____________________________ M __ o_n_d_a�y,�6 __ A�p_r_il�, _1 9_8_1 ____ ____ ____ ______________ __ __ few years, last year particularly, has had in curbing this kind of activity in some of our parks. MR. BOSTROM: Mr. Chairman, I wasn't talking about parks so much as I was talking about the conservation officer series and that se c:tion, Mr. Chairman.

I am informed has developed somewhat of a police image the last couple of years, c1Jntrary to that which they were developing under thE' previous admin istration, that was an image of being more of a helper to the resource users than being a policeman of the resource users. I believe that is !>omething which is not a good devel opment. I believe that the conservation officers, parks officers should oe people that are assisting the resource users and n1Jt coming around in a very policeman-like way and dealing with resources.

I believe that the conservation officers were taking very fav ourable to the role of being resou rce development people in a total sense ra her than simply being policemen of the resources. They were enjoying the image of being friends of the trappers and the fishermen and the other users of the resource and goin g into the commun ties and working with the communities and the del'elopment of their resources, rather than the old <:ops and robber attitude of the fisheries officers and the conservation officers chasing after people at night with lights flashing and horns blaring and so on and so forth.

I think the image of the department as being a policing department is not a good image. It would be much better if the departm �nt were organized along the lines of being an assistance to the resource users. I note even in the Annual Repor t of the department, that in the first few pages w1ere they are outlining the policy of the departmen ·:, Natural Resource Administration Program, the objectives of the Natural Resource Admin istration Proqram are outlined.

Something which is missing from that in my opinion, there is no mention about insuring to the people of Manitoba a maximum ec onomic return from the resource.

There is no mention Hbout the department being an innovator and an initiator and assistants to developers of the resource arrd that is why I object to the attitude that the P.C. government seems to have towards this department and the attitude which seems to be developing of making policemen out of the development officers and the conservation officers and parks officers, rather than laying down a policy where they could be hnlping the people that are developing the resource. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2(bX 1) - pass - the MHmber for St. George. MR. URUSKI: Mr.

Chairman, being mom specific along the lines that the Member for Rupert!;land was commenting on, could the Minister indi c:ate why there were layoffs of staff in the Interlake region of personnel while they were civilians working in the resource field, there were I believe two (lr maybe more people who had gi ven service to the government and to this branch, one of which I believe in the neigh borhood of 25 years and one heading close to 20 years, when the change in policy with respect to the conservation officer role that was changed, there were actual layoffs, although the se people were not bona fide conservation officers, they 2448 nevertheless worked with the officers in the field and had worked for over 20 years, and for some reason which they couldn't figure out, whether it was felt that their usefulness had gone out the window, that they were no longer useful to the branch, they were laid off.

I'd like to know whether that was a policy just to not allow some of the members who may have been close to retirement or what's the situation with that? Have they been called back with respect to their employment, particularly that I was aware of, in the Interlake region with respect to the changes that my colleague has outlined? MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, I'd be happy to take up any specific and individual cases and provide the precise answers to those cases.

I am advised that there always has been with the department over the years a substantial number of what we would call seasonal staff, many of them were converted to full time and permanent staff situations in the course of reorganiz ation; whether or not in some of these instances seasonal emp loyees for one reason or other felt they could not be accommodated, or whether or not it involved perhaps a change in residence or place of service and then brought about a parting of the way, I'd be happy to undertake to look into those situations for the honour able member. But before I leave that, Mr.

Chairman, I don't want to leave on the record the suggestion that the conservation officers have fundamentally changed their role and become police officers instead, that's simply not true. They are carrying out their traditional role as always has been the case. What has happ ened is tha t there has been a mer ging of responsibilities if you like, particularly with the advent of the parks di vision into the branch where the conservation officer has the dual res ponsibilities of helping and assisting the communities, managing the resource, but as well being part of the enforcement aspect that has always occurred.

We may have and I think correctly so, have provided the enforcement aspect a somewhat higher image of the advent of vehicles and so forth but our perception of the need was, that that was what was required. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN, Lloyd G. Hyde (Portage Ia Prairie): The Member for Rupertsland. MR. BOSTROM: Well, Mr. Chairman, my point was that the department in general has become very much the policemen of the resources, rather than the developer of the resources.

In other words any development concept or development initiative of the department has given way to the priority that the government has set on policing of the resource. Whether it's in parks, or whether it's in resources ad ministration by conservation officers, or whatever, the emphasis is on the policing of the resource and enforcement as the Minister has referred to, rather than the department being an assistance to people in using the resource.

The conservation officer series is really just a symbol of what has happened to the department under the P.C. administration and that is that any resou rce development programs have been either cut or watered down to the point where there is very litt le, if any, resource initiative ta ken by the department in terms of assisting people with

Monday , 6 April, 1981 resource dev elopment. The ent ire emphasis has switched to the traditional role which the Minister refers to quite correctly, of being a police-oriented administration. That is something that was not the case under the ND P admi nistrat ion and it has reverted back under this administration. MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, we will obviously di sagree, and it's not for me to argue with the member's perception of the department, but let the record clearly show that the concerns that the honourable member ex presses simply are not correct.

There has probably not been another period in recent history of the department where on all fronts major devel opmental programs are being initiated, whether it's in forestry, in parks, fisheries. We can refer to them more specifically as we come up to those items in the Estimates, and the results are bearing fruit, Mr. Chairman, in a heightened level of activity and a greater return to the people of Manitoba from the management of these resources. MR. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, the Minister indicated that he would be pleased to look into the areas with respect to the staff. I'll be quite specific, Mr. Chairman.

The staff individuals, I will give him the surnames of McKay, I believe he was stationed in the Ashern area; and an individual, Menkewich, I believe, he had been with the branch for a number of years, but stationed all over the province, the latter having I believe, over 20-years service, and the other just under 20-year s service. I'd like to know, Mr. Chairman, what their services are; whether they've been recalled into the civil service; whether the layoff was just tem porary as a result of the change.

But nevertheless they were laid off last year, and most of those individuals, in the main, worked, if not the entire year service they were employed as assistants and the like, but predominantly most of the every year of service that they had, although they were not, as I indicated, not conservation officers or regular civil service empl oyees. They would have been civilian emp loyees in terms of probably term staff or the like, but nevertheless they had gained that much experie nce and sen iority and service within the branch. MR. EN NS: Mr.

Chairman, I will undertake to provide tha t information to the member at tomorrow's sessi on. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2.(b)( 1) pass - the Member for Rupertsland. MR. BOSTROM: Mr. Chairman, I hope the Minister do es bring up specific examples of where his department has been innovative and showed initiative in development of resources because, in most of the areas that I'm familiar with, there has been little or no innovation or initiative shown by the department since the PCs have been in charge of this department.

I referred to an example earlier today when we were talking about fisheries. 1 mean, here the Island Lake Fishery is going down the drain, and this government and this department is doing nothing about that. They're not showing any initiative there in terms of provi ding an opportunity for fishermen to harvest that resource through the provision of some assistance towards setting up a 2449 processing facility and so on. They've maintained the status quo as far as the Fisheries Freight Assistance Program is concerned which we brought in, Mr.

Chairman, under the previous administration, and they've watered it down as far as the Island Lake communities are concerned. They managed to anger most of the fishermen, if not all the fishermen in the province, with their proposed change in licencing policies. As far as forestry is concerned, Mr. Chairman, there has been no real new developments.

Earlier this session we talked about Channel Area Loggers, and I had assurances from both the Minister of Northern Affairs and the Minister of Resources that something would be done on the east side in terms of assisting Channel Are a Logger s in their relationship with Abitibi, who is showing them very little if no cooperation in their attempts to make that company a viable operat ion. As far as I know, there has been no developments in that area; if anything, there are even more roadblocks in the way now towards making that company a viable venture.

The previ ous Mi nister of Forestry ga ve the admin istration of the forestry of a large part of the east side of Lake Winnipeg to Abitibi. They've taken it directly out of the hands of government; they've abdi cated their respo nsibility as managers of the resource, and they'v e giv en that over to the adminis tration of a private company. I think that's absolutely shocking and inexcusable. As far as parks are concerned, Mr. Chairman, their record has been abysmal in that regard.

It's taken over three years to come up with even a partial plan for the Whiteshell Park, in spite of all of the public up roar over the go v ernment's propos ed condominium development in that area. In the area of more peripheral programs like the Wild Rice Program, although there's a line in the Estimates here for wild rice, I know for a fact that the government has pretty well removed itself from a development role as far as the communities are concerned.

There was a wild rice plant in the commun ity of Paui ngassi which the previous gov ernment assisted in es tablishing so that they could get into the processing business directly at the community level. As far as I know that plant has been sold. There has been no attempt by the government to assist the communities to furthe r develop the wild rice resource through planting programs or through water control measures and so on. If there has been they have been very few and far removed.

So these are all areas that I can refer to where there's been a lack of initiative by the government and an abdication of the responsibility as initiators of resource development in the Province of Manitoba. I'd be very pleased if the Minister could say that some of these things are improving or changing in d1re ct1on becaus e my prim ary concern, Mr .

Chairman, although I'm a political animal, is that there be some things happen in terms of resource dev elopment, in particular in terms of th ose communities that depend on resources as a main economic base, and one which I believe could be more fully developed as an economic base for many people that could use the resources as employment opportunities. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2.(b) (1) pass; 2.(b )(2) pass; 2.(c )(1) pass.

Monday, 6 April, 1981 ---------------------------------- The Member for Rupertsland. MR. BOSTROM: Mr. Chairman, perhaps as we go to each one of these sect ions here maybe the Minister could indicate why he's requesting the dollars listed. We may not have any specific questions, but I think it would be appropriate for the Minister to indicate why he's request ing the moneys. MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, I believe that in most of these instances the normal salary increases and adjustments account for the slight variance c•f figures from last year over to this year.

I think that holds true pretty well for the Administrative Ser11ices. In terms of staff man years in this vote the ·e is no change. The adjustments in the vote call for the usual salary adjustments. Of the $57,000 increase in thi s particular vote, $40,0 00 is di recl salary increases. Then there are some minor adjustments as a result of relocat ions of certain pers onnel; relocation of the

section in a physical sense from the Norquay Building to the Wawanesa Building . and on site printers required, nor to prevent delays in the rece ipt of reques ted pri nt-outs; some · minor equ ipment pur chases; but there have been no fundamental changes in either staff man �rears or moneys requested in this particular

section of the appropriation. MR. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, which branch has moved to the Wawanesa Building? MR. ENNS: The ent ire Admin istrat ive Bervices Branch sect ion. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: 2.(c)( 1) - the Member for St. George. MR. URUSKI : Mr. Chairman, could the Minister indicate when that transfer was made? MR. ENNS: That transfer has just taken plac:e within the last month or so. It began in January.

F art of it was occasioned because of additional demands for some space in the Norquay Building, individuals that were previously in this building were being shipped to the Norquay Building and consolidation of the Admin istrative Services in that particular building was found to be advantageous to the depart rnent. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: 2.( c)(1) - pass 2.(c)(2) - pass; 2.(d)( 1) - the Member for Rupertsland. MR. BOSTROM: The same question applies, Mr. Chairman. MR. ENNS: This particular

section provi c:tes the support to the adm inistration in terms of being responsible for the libr ary services; it coordin ates the transportation requir ements; it's responsible for the ad ministration of the main departmental warehouse at 40 Muir Street; it provides and coordin ates the general services, emplo yee housing, inventor(, credit card space, updatings, etc., etc. Again, I'm advised there is no increase in staff man years here. The relatively minor increase in dollars is attributable to salary adjustments ·- some $30,000.00. MR.

DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: 2.(d)( 1) - pass; 2.(d)(2) - pass; 2.(e)( 1) - the Member for Rupertsla 1d. 2450 MR. BOSTROM: The same question, Mr. Chairman, if the Minister could explain what this vote is for. MR. ENNS: This is our Public Information Services divi sion of the department providing the departmental pamphlets, brochures, for every branch within the department headed by Miss Carol Scott, is it?

As you members would be aware we do a fair bit of radio, some television work, in the making up of informational advertisements with respect to usually the regulatory aspects of the department, wildli fe, dates for seasons openings and closings, general information of that nature. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2.(e)( 1)- pass; 2.(e)(2) - pass; 2.(f )(1) - pass; 2.(f)( 2) - pass.

Be it resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty the sum of not exceeding $2,425 ,300 for Natural Resourc es - pass. MR. URUSKI: Before it passes, I just want to make sure that I understood the Minister. There are no staff increases in this entire Admin istrative Services. Do I understand him correctly, the whole vote? MR. ENNS: I'm advised that's the case to the Honourable Member for St. George. MR. URUSKI : Were there any vacancies in the division that were approved in previous years and were not filled? MR.

ENNS: I'm advised that there are one or two vacancies in the division although the control in this aspect is reaso nably tight and that vacancies are by and large filled as they become vacant. The division is not carrying a large number of unfilled staff man year allocations. My dir ector advises me as little as one or two from time to time may be vacant. MR. URUSKI: Could the Minister indicate between the Executive Admin istration and Adminis trativ e Servi ces as of this fis cal year-en d, how many vacancies would there have been in terms of staff complement within these two divisions? MR. ENNS: Mr.

Chairman, to be accurate I'd be happy to take that question under advisement and have staff provide the information specifically for the honourable member tomorrow. MR. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, then possibly it will save the asking of the question in other divisions, that can be done through out the department in terms of the vacancy, the actual staff persons or the vacancies that are there because there's no doubt that the SMYs that are requested of course are not always filled and that makes it a bit of a difficulty in terms of looking at the statistics that are provided from time to time. MR. ENNS: Mr.

Chairman, we would be happy to unde rtake to provide that information. I'll ask the staff to summarize the situations with respect to SMYs and/or vacancies and have that prepared on a listing for you if you like, sometime tomorrow. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 100 - pass; 3.(a)(1 ) pass - the Member for Rupertslan d.

Monday, 6 April, 1981 MR. BOSTROM: Well, the standard que stion, Mr. Chairman, if the Minister could outline what he's asking for? MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, again, there is no change here. This provides of course for the operation of the offices of the Assistant Deputy Minister and Executive Director of Operations, support functions to the Assistant Deputy Minister's Office. No change in the staff man years. The dollar figure again reflects the adjustments necessary as a result of salary increases. MR.

BOSTROM: Ha s the Minister made any changes in the admin istrative organization of the department since the Annual Report was introduced? MR. ENNS: I have been advised that there have been no changes made since the last time you considered the se Estimates; Mr. McNa irnay being the Deputy Minister, Mr. Surrendi the Assistant Deputy Minister. I think honourable members are reviewing for themselves the organizational chart of this

section and there have been no changes made to that chart at this time. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3. (a)( 1) pass; 3. (a)(2) pass; 3.(bX 1) pass; The Member for Rupertsland. MR. BOSTROM: Just by way of introduction of this

section perhaps the Minister could outline what he's asking for. MR. ENNS: I didn't get the question. MR. BOSTROM: Mr. Chairman, the question is basically the same as I've asked for the others. What is the Minister requesting in terms of this section, if he could explain it? MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, this is the Operations Administration. The senior staff official one Mr. Frank Berr y and the ob jectiv e is to provide for the administration and co-ordination of the field delivery of the department's programs. The division consists of the following branches: Engi neeri ng & Const ruct ion, headed up by Mr.

Bill Ne wton; Regional Services and Su rveys & Mapping. Delivery services are provided in response to programme requirements of the resource branches. The separation that took place during the time of the departmental reorganization separates, perhaps most graphically depicted in the Water Recources Department from the Water Resources Planning, to the field delivery of actual provision of the services, the digging of the drains, the building of the bridges and/or the actual field work that is carried out in the parks.

That comes under the Executive Directorship of this branch entitled Operations Administration and the deliv ery then flows out from this branch. This appropriation covers the cost of that admini stration. MR. URUSKI: Mr. Ch airman, in this area, the delivery of the operations, do I understand from the Minister that the engineering services that is being provided now for both Water Resources and Parks Branch is handled by the same individuals within the same branch? 2451 MR. ENNS: That is correct, Mr. Chairman. MR. URUSKI: Mr.

Chairman, how and who does the priorizing with respect to the splitting off of the services that are to be provided to the various departments, Mr. Chairman? MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, the di fferent dir ectors priorize their programs, the Parks Director at the outset of the year in the preparation for Estimates priorizes his programs, development programs, that he would like to carry out within the park system; likewise the same is done in the Water Resources Branch.

Th ose are establi she d , the priority of programs are established by the directors, approved through the Minister's office in the Estimate process and the delivery of the programs is then carried out by this branch, this organization. MR. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, that's my very point, the delivery of the services that is to be carried out Mr. Chairman. We know that the Engineering Sectio � now is in a bit of a dilemma with respect to the carrying out of services to the two various branches. Prior to the reorgan ization the Engineering

Section carried on their mandate dealing with the water resources and the planning and deta iling out of projects throughout the province. Now they have an added responsibility, and I'm not saying that they shouldn't have, but the fact of the matter remains is who sets the priority whether or not we go and work on departmental priorities of drainage or do we deal with the parks. Mr.

Chairman, I bring to the Minister's attention, we had the same situation in the Minister of Northern Affairs Branch with the changing policy of having the Department of Hig hways do the actual construction of road work in Northern Affairs Community Council areas. Mr. Chairman, it really came down to the fact that the department, while the y budgeted for certain sums of money that projects would be undertaken, Hig hways did their own thing, they had their own priorities, Mr . Chairman.

While the staff in the branch were saying to the councillors, community committees in the field, yes there's adequate money, but you couldn't get the Hig hways Depart ment, because of their own workload, to do those projects, Mr. Chairman. Those projects happen to always have to be left when the branch had time. It appears to me that this type of reorganization in this instance would come out in the same way, where someone has to make a decision whether we're going to deal with priorities of this branch or that and leaving both in a likelihood of an unsatisfactory situation, Mr. Chairman. MR. ENNS: Mr.

Chairman, it's entirely possible 1 suppo se, particu larly in the fir st year of any reorganization that from time to time something can fall between stools, as the saying goes. But on the other hand the whole rationale for the reorganization is to prevent and to do away with costly duplication of services. What in effect was develo ping, the example you used, was that Northern Affairs was busily creating a miniature Department of Hig hways when it could be questioned, the question could be asked whether or not that was their mandate and were they the best department to provide tha t delivery?

Simila rly, in the situation that we had where a fair amount of road work or other engineering type work

Monday , 6 April, 1981 was being carried out, was necessary in th � provision of services in parks, was to some exte nt, in our judg ment and I don't expect neces sarily for honourable members opposite to concur with me, but nonet heless it was the judgme nt of the government of the day that greater efficiencies within the governmet services could be provid�d by the types of reorgan izat ion that was und ·�rtaken . I believe as we move into the second and third year of these organizations that they're proving out to be right.

The priority setting of course, perhaps unlike the time that honourable members wer government, is still very much the role of the elected off cials, your members of the Cabinet and we intend tc carry out those responsibilities. MR. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, I certa inl'f lik e the comments of the Minister of Natural Reso urces. I'm pleased to receive his comments and how dedic ated and supportive he is of this kind of a ct ange, Mr. Chairman. The type of change that we have evidenced, Mr.

Chairman, and I think his predecessor who had much to do with these reorganizations can be described as reorganization to do noth ng.

If you want to create the image that - and you did when you were elected , you had the big Task Force on go vernment reorgani zat ion and to bri ng about efficiency of service - like in the M rnister of Northern Affairs Department you made a B Jdget and you said yes, we're going to spend X-mrmbers of thousands of dollars to do road building or whatever services that we're going to providn to our communities and then the delivery of thH services were to be put into other departments who had their own prioriti es so at the end of the �1ear, Mr .

Chairman, if the jobs didn't get done tne deficit position of the Minister of Finance of the day could be lessened. Although you said you had ample Budget room and you had provided amplE> financial assistance the moneys nevertheless were not moved out. Certainly, Mr. Chairman, in a reorgan izati•)n of that nature you could reinvent the wheel any day of the week and make reor gan ization for the sake of reorganiza tion. Whether you'r e going to have an effective deliv ery system that's really the e; sence of the exercise. Mr.

Chairman, that remains to be seen whether or not the deliv ery system in that department is proving as efficient as the Minister has lead us to believe. It certainly isn't evidenced in some other departments, Mr. Chairman , and that remains to be seen in his own department. MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, I suppose I shculd leave well enough alone by agreeing with the honourable member, that remains to be seen. But IE ·t me do what 1 know I shouldn't do and invoke a debate at this particular time.

But to suggest that sorne of the efficiencies that have occurred aren't as c ear as a crystal ball the honourable member is hiding his head in the sand. I have nothing aga inst social workers but they don't happen to make good water systems work. When we took over the Department of Northern Services provided a water systerr delivery to 20 communities, 19 of them didn't work after the one year.

So you ask yourself when you have in the Department of Government Services, or in this case in the Department of Agriculture. a division that over the years has provided water systnms for 2452 communities large and small across the width and breadth of Manitoba, why should that group not be the ones called upon to provide and build the water systems in the northern communities, which they are now doing and the water systems are now working. I cite that one example of a very apparent efficiences in the kind of reorganization that have been carried out.

I acknowledge that I suppose there's always a desire on the part of a department to run or do as much of the activity on it's own, but I think what we are demonstrating or what this go vernment is demonstrating is a far greater awareness of the util izat ion of the best resou rces within total government to be applied to a particular resolution of our problem.

We belie ve it's being done daily and monthly in Manitoba in a way that is provi ding better service, very often for the same or fewer dollars, and serviced by people who are best equipped to provide that service, whether it's building highways or roads, whether it's providing engineering services in our parks, or in any other aspect where reorganization has occurred. MR. BOSTROM: Yes, Mr. Chairman. The Minister makes some grandi ose generalizations.

But when you get down to the specifics I would like to ask him to consider for a moment the organizational chart which he has to work with for his department, where he has a number of directors of various branches. I might say they could be called client groups because you have the Wildli fe Branch, Forestry Branch, Fisheries Branch, each of which deal with very specific client groups within the Natural Resources field, as well as the Lands, Waters and Parks Branches. They each have their particular ax to grind when it comes to devel oping particular programs for their client groups.

What I would ask the Minister is how do these programs, that are developed by each branch and approved by the ministry, become a priority of the Field Services Branch which are laid out here as a completely separate branch altogether, one which has a Regional Services Branch Di re ctor who I assume in the Civil Service hierarchy would be approxi mately the same level as each of the directors of the client group branches that I referred to.

So given that situation where you have people more or less at the same level, each pursuing what they may consider to be very important priorities, how do those get sorted out in the process so that the necessary programs of the gov ernment are effe ctively delivered? MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, the Director of the Field Operations plays a very integral role in the mapping out of the department's coming year's activity.

A dir ector in any one of these other di scipli nes suggests or priorize a particular service; the dir ector of field opera tion's res ponsibility is to tell us what is required in terms of dollars, what is req uired in terms of staff, what his capabilities are in delivering that program; that then is all married together with the overall resources of the department and then at the senior level within the department the hard priority decisions are made.

The dir ector of field services in each instance tells us, if we wish to embark on an aggressive drainage program in the coming year - a program which in this year, by the way, is going to

Monday, 6 April, 1981 have to receive some additional attention - we have already served notice that there may be considerably more clean-out work that will have to be done this year because of soil erosion that has taken place over the winter. The dir ector of resources, and if that becomes a matter of concern, a priority item with me as the Minister as related to me and is pressed upon me by members of my Caucus, mem bers of my Cabinet, I then pass that on through the chain of command to the dir ector of Field Services.

He'll very quickly tell me I can do that but only at the expense of somet hing else, unless I'm provided with the additional supp ort or dolla rs to carr y out that program. That's a fairly normal procedure which both honourable memb ers who have served in the Treasury Bench are aware of in terms of priorizing your workload with the dol lars that you have available and with the priorities as the individual di rectors can place them in front of the Minister for considerat ion. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3(b)(1) pass; 3(bX2) The Member for Rupertsland. MR. BOSTROM: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Well, I brought this up not as an issue for debate but something for the Minister to consider. As I look at the organizational chart I think, with my experience, I can see all kinds of problems there with respect to the interrela tionship between the various depart ments and their abilit y to co-ord inate the activities and programs of government and I know that that has been a continuing problem in that department and one that I'm sure this Minister will be addr essing as he gets further into the administration of the department.

I don't see it as a political partisan issue, it's simply one of getting the most effective delivery of programs and I only bring it to the Minister's attention for his consideration. MR. CHAIRMAN, Morris McGregor (Virden): The Honourable Minister. MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, and I certainly accept it in that light.

I would indic ate to the honourable members tha t it's ent irely within the re alm of possibility that some additional changes, particularly at the senior level of the department, may well have to be effected to provide the kind of balance that the honourable member refers to and to ensure the kind of flow of programs that we look for in the department. MR. CHAIR MAN: 3(b)( 1) pass; 3( b)(2) pass; 3(cX1) pass. The Member from Rupertslan d. MR. BOSTROM: Yes, Mr. Chairman, as the previous ques tion, if the Minister could outline what this

section is proposed to do in the fiscal year that he is demanding funds from the people of Manitoba. MR. ENNS: This, Mr. Chairman, is essen tially the planning unit within the depart ment, has as its objecti ves to formulate br oad departmental programs in such areas as outdo or recreat ion, scarce resources, multipl e resource allocations, to prepare departmental positions in respect to land and its use.

Specifically some of the activities they're 2453 undertak ing: the Outdoor Recreation Plan, they are a group that is heavily involved in such things as the Whiteshell Master Plan; Environmental Assessment and Review Processes; Ecological Reserve Technical Advisory Commi ttee; Tourism Licen cing Advisory Commit tee, we play a role, that is the Department of Natural Resources, even though the Department of Tourism does the actual licencing of lodge operators or tourist facilities, they do so only upon the advice received from this planning group; Departmental inputs under The Provincial Planning Act called upon by other departments to voice an opinion as to land allocation or land use, applications that are made under The Provincial Planning Act; has a heavy input into the Indian land claims working group; Resource Allocation Review; Monitoring Co-ordination; and the Northern Agricultural Study Committ ee.

Some of the immediate areas of concern by this planning group are: the sale of Crown lands, tourism resources and development and use, and the Indian land claims. There are no changes in the SMY requests in this division. The $28,000 increase in moneys for the division reflect the changes in the salary vote. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3(c)( 1) pass; 3(c)(2) pass; 3(dX 1) pass. The Member from Rupertsland. MR. BOSTROM: The same question applies, Mr. Chairman. MR. ENNS: Mr.

Chairman, this as indicated in the appropriations is an evaluation gr oup within the department to evaluate the effectiveness of the programs in terms of att empting to meet their objectives. Specific activities undertaken under the direction of Mr.

Wayne Fisher, who is the senior official, involve the Wild life Branch Aerial surveys; they review the Department of Tree Nur sery Operations at Birds Hi ll and at Hadashville; they review the depa rt ment's refo re station efforts; com prehens ive review and analysis of the Park Branch activities; park campground survey related to roudi ness; preparation of line of questioning for Fire Review Board hearings; evaluation of a Wild Fur Development Program, all these new initiatives that this department is involved in; prel iminary work related to departmental equipment review; review of opportunities for contracting out certain activities and/or leasing equipment now owned; review of the effects of special ARDA grants on fur production and review of the Fire Detection Program.

Mr. Chairman, that gives the honourable members an overview of the activities of this division. There is no increase in staff man years requested in this di visi on. The increased cost of some $15, 000 again reflects the salary adjustments in this year's vote. MR. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, it was interesti ng, the Minister indicated one of the program evaluations was done with the leasing of equipment rather than purchasing some equipment.

To what extent was that evaluation done and what areas, what type of equipment are we talking about and what were the background of the study and the recommendations flowing therefrom? MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman , I don't have specific details but I would make the assumption and would

Monday, 6 April, 1981 ---------------------------------- ask staff to provide them for me tomorrow; but I would assume that in a department such a!; Natural Resou rces that has a su bstantial amount of equip ment in its inventory receives of course the usual amount of requests from individuals, operators, or the people that have equipment available for hire from time to time, much as it occurs in sorne other departments, particularly for some of the occasional type work that is req uired.

The policy prob ably dir ected most specifically towards the• Water Resources Branch, and that is their Field Operational Branch, where we do contract out for hire at certain levels of jobs. I believe the figure is $25,000 and less where we have been shown tha t it's just good busi ness to go on an hourly basis, rather than through the normal tendering process. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3(dX1l pass; 3(dX2) pas:;. Be is resolved that there be gr anted to Her Majesty a sum not exce eding $650,500 for Natural Resources pass. 4(aX 1l pass; 4(aX2l pass. The Member from St. George. MR. URUSKI: Mr.

Chairman, with respeci to the long term. I presume this is the time that the Minister dis tributes the program with respect to, 11ormally spea king, with respect to the Water Resources Construction Program? MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, I'm advised that takes place under the Acquisition/Construction Physical Assets portion of the Estimates and we v1ill have them available to the honourable members at that time. MR. BOSTROM: Mr.

Chairman, seeing that we are moving right along expeditiously in the E:;timates here, I wonder if the Minister could unde11ake to provide the members of the committee with copies of his program in advance of our arriving at thai

section so that members who are interested, as long as they are available, say first thing tomorrow so member could ask questions on it. MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, I am being advi:;ed that we are moving ahead expeditiously, not just in these particula r set of Estima tes but general ly as the consideration of Esti mate s of the go ve:r nment spending for the coming year is being considered, that we've been perhaps caught somewhat !;hort on time. The Director of Water Resources indit;ates to me that they will be available on Wednesday.

I would undertake, in my usual generosity of dealing with members of the committee, not to take an11 undue advantage of that and to provide all membe•s every opportun ity to di scuss those plans and the allocations for dollars in the various proje:ts and indeed, if need be, revert back if we should tonight happen to pass the entir e Esti mates of the Department of Natural Resources. MR. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, the Minister really loves to tell good stories and tonight happens to be one of those even ings.

The reason that we'v•� raised the question of course, while one can make all kinds of requests and statements with respect to various problem areas that come up, all that can be really impinging on the time of the committee 1f these 2454 requests and dis cussions take place, when we know tha t the project is within the program for construction in specific areas, Mr. Chairman. So that's basically the reason that we've raised it, would make it much simp ler . That's the rea son, Mr . Chairman. MR. ENNS: Except, Mr.

Chairman, I appreciate the member's concern but the items that we're dealing with here again are th ose associated with the issuance of water power and water rights licences, designa ted area permits, flood forecasting, provision of grants to conservation dis tricts, this is the Water Resource Planning Section, Division if you like, of the department, again as we come to the Acquisition portion of the Estimates, that would still provide an appropriate moment to dis cuss those matters as well as I suppose when we come to the field services in terms of the actual programming of carrying out various water related projects.

MR. CHAIRMAN: 4.(aX2l - pass; 4.(bX 1) - pass - the Member for St. George. MR. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, earlier on we dis cussed the matter of Water Licensing. Is this the area that deals with The Water Power Act with respect to the licensing and issuance of permits for Manitoba Hydro and the changes that have taken place? Could the Minister outline those changes that have taken place in the Water Power rental rates and the kind of revenue changes that have resulted from those changes? MR. ENNS: Mr.

Chairman, again, not in any way to avoid the question, but those changes brought about at the dir ection of the Depar tment of Finance essentially viewed at this juncture as a straight revenue question for the Province of Manitoba as opposed to the original granting or not granting the licence in the first instance.

We are dealing now with water licences granted to Hydro some many years ago not affecting any changes in the operation or the regulation of those licences but, I am generally aware of them as is the member, having had changes I think of the order of doublin g the water rentals tha t the gov ernment through the Department of Finance now charges the Hydro utility.

I haven't got, and I don't believe my stall has the dollar figure associated with them but that would certai nly be avai lable through the Depart ment of Fin ance's Estim ates and I could undertake to provide them for you as a matter of courtesy tomorrow, but it is a revenue matter at this juncture. MR. URUSKI: From the Minister I am assuming that Finance does all the bookkeeping on the revenue matter orders. No? Well, Mr.

Chairman, I see the stall within the department do the bookkeeping and I would ask that the Minister provide the details on that matter although as he has indicated, the move was a government move and Finance being the collector of revenues, but if the admin istration of the record keeping is within his department I would like that information if I could, Mr. Chairman. MR. ENNS: I'm advised, Mr. Chairman, that the amounts in question are roughly an increase of some

Monday, 6 April, 1981 $7 million from the $5 million prior to the recent changes for a total revenue of some $12 million. MR. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, is than an annual figure, fiscal year to fiscal year, or is that from July when they were implemented, to the end of this fiscal year? What is the annual figure of revenues that accrues to the province on an annual basis? If that's provided for tomorrow that will be fine. MR. CHAIRMAN: 4.( b)(1) - pass - the Member for St. George. MR. URUSKI: Well, . . . MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, I think I'd be advised to provide that information as accurately as I can tomorrow morning.

I am now being advised that the total figure for this year is $7.7 million but whether or not that is on a full calendar year or because it was only applied half-way through the year or th ree qu arters of the way through the year, let me undertake to provide you with that information. If the staff will make a note of that que stion we will ende avo ur to provide you with the information tomorrow. MR. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, have there been any changes in any of the licences that have been issued to Manitoba Hydro with respect to their operations on any of the bodies of water that they require? MR. ENNS: Mr.

Chairman, I'm advised that there have been no changes. MR. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, we had discussions earlier in the evening dealing with the licensing and the requests for water licences to deal with irrigation and the studies that are being undertaken by the Water Commission and the department to look at the extent of the resource and how best can this resource be put to the fullest use without any long term harmful effects on the water supply of this province. How many permits have been issued, say, in the last year and a breakdown that the Minister might have with respect to the departments?

I presume there would be departments applying for permits and individuals that deal with applications for water supplies and areas that we are talking about. Are there areas that there have been more applications and I'm presuming the irrigation area - we're talking about the As sini boine Riv er , the Portage Ia Prairie area and possibly some other areas - that there have been requests? MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, I again would have to have staff tabula te the actual numbers of existing temporary licences because that's all that we have at the moment.

I can ind ica te to the honourable members as I suggested earlier the kind of pressure the department is under. From one area alone, the Carberry area, we have applications for some 138-13 9 requests for groundwater sources, new requests and that, I think members will appreciate, places a lot of pressure on the department and we have to be extremely careful about the de cisions that are ma de. These are operations that often involve many thousands of dolla rs in the expensive, pivotal , sprinkle r-type irrigation equipment that is required.

Unders tandably, money providers, whether it's MACC or banks that are loaning or providing the farmer s with the necessary capital for this investment, ask a very immediate question, what kind of tenure do you have on your source of water?

For this reason, the Minister of Agriculture has been unrelenting in his pressure upon this little Minister about coming to some resolve of this question and I have been equally unrepenting in my pressure on the Director of Water Resources here in coming up with the answers because agric ultur e is an important ind ustry in this province and cannot book being stalled on this important matter. MR. URUSKI: Mr.

Chairman, while the Minister's fl owery words may impr ess some people, nevertheless, if the branch is not aware of all the implications of issuing those permits, have there been requests - and he indicated some 130 in one area - were all those requests granted last year with respect to the demands on water and how many requests would have been turned down? MR. ENNS: Mr.

Chairman, I perhaps should remind honourable members about the opening statement that I made in the introduction of the Estimates where I indicated the Manitoba Water Commission's particular assignment in this area of dealing with the issuance of licences and let me separate the two.

The study that they are undertaking as to how to equitably handle the requests that are being received by the department and how to ensure that we can provide interim licensing, perhaps to bridge the gap but without endangering the resource, the technical aspects of this study are being undertaken as I mentioned earlier with the co-operation of PFRA and the resources of the department to do the necessary studies to determine capacity in this area. Mr.

Chairman, ag ain, the Di rector of Water Resources indicates to me that we will have an up to-date tabulation of actual requests, the numbers tha t we have been able to accommo da te, the numbers that are outstand ing. It's not simply related though to groundwater resources as well, the request for irrigation is such from some surface streams as well - the La Salle River particularly coming to mind - where again we've been unable to meet the numbers of requests.

Particularly again, the year that we face again with the reduced runoffs, the possibility exists as we had to do I think on two previous occasions, supplement the flows of the La Salle Ri ver with pump ing opera tions from the Assiniboine simply to provide adequate water for those existing operators that are now operating and drawing water from the La Salle River. It also impresses upon us the urgency of studying as we are, the possibility of a diversion from the Assiniboine under controlled circumstances to the La Salle.

There are problems that could be associated with that, that have to be investigated to see whether or not it's feasible, as to whether or not we can ensure a quality of water that's acceptable. There are some difficulties with salinity in the area that could do the reverse. So while there is extreme pressure on the department to provide the water, we have to know and hope the department will come up with the answers relatively soon. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for St. George. 2455

Monday , 6 April, 1981 MR. URUSKI: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The study that the Minister has indi cate d in hi�. opening statement of some approximately $9 million over a three-year period, that's the study he is reterring to I presume and how is that cost-shar ed with the Federal Government? MR. ENNS: I'm advised it's on a 50-50 ba�;is. MR. URUSKI: The 50-50 would be of $8.95 million or $17.5 million? MR. ENNS: $8.95 million, I believe. yes. MR. URUSKI: So then the provincial share would be $4.5 million approxi mately, Mr. Chairma n .

What areas have been targeted when he indicates the Turtle Mountain-Carberry-Southwestern, is that the extent of the study or are there other areas that are being investigated other than the general areas of Southw estern Mani toba, Carber ry and Turtle Mountain? MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman , those areas that the honourable member just mentioned are the specific areas where intensive grou ndwater studie s will be carried out. The other areas that have been ident ified for possible surface diversion or storage of water include the areas immedia tely south of Portage to the Hespeler area down to the Morden area.

Some work is being done immedia tely north of th·� Portage area, in the so-called vegetable belt area. J, possible combination of a storage of a new major reservoir somewhere along the Assiniboine between Brandon and Portage, these are some of the project> that are being considered in that area. It includes the La Salle River as wel l. I suppose one of the major aspects of it is the potential diversion provided that adequate supply is provided through some other means to the south to the Hespeler area and towards the Morde11 area of the province. MR. URUSKI: Mr.

Chairman, what is the di:; tance - and I don't have the map in front of me ·- that is being contemplated with respect to As�. iniboine LaSalle pos sible di versi ons? What are we really talking about? MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, it's not a large dis tance. It would not be a major capital project in terms of dollars. I think the channel req uired is in the· order of a couple of miles, two to three miles.

There are other concerns, nature, the soil conditions that we would be bringing this diversion about. the possible tapping of undesirablo! ground water supplies with high salt content, etc., tllat cause us our concern, that make it prudent for us to study the matter before we simply dig the channel. The obvious solution would be to dig a ch �nne I as quickly as possible.

We have now spent, or perhaps my colleague has spent some $120,000 in temporary pumping measures, and when you consider that projected project costs of that kind of an operation is perhaps in the order of $500,000 or $600,000, it becomes apparent that the sooner we can satisfy ourselves that this is a fea sible alternative, that we should get on with the job of undertaking it. MR. URUSKI: Mr.

Chairman, what about the waters of Lake Manitoba, in terms of while you ha\le now a 2456 di version to take away excess water from the Assiniboine into Lake Manitoba, I believe historically there have been dis cussions at one time or another of the possi bilit y of water in reverse from Lake Manitoba, is that part of the entire process as wel l? While no doubt it will raise gr ave concerns in some areas along the lake, nevertheless is that bei ng looked at? MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, the Honourable Member for St. George just doesn't give up, does he?

He does want to get those six inches off Lake Manitoba one way or another. But I'm advised, seriously, that it is a possibility that has some merit, and while it hasn't received the intensive study, but certainly is being locked away in the overall planning of our water resources. MR. CHAIRMAN: 4.( b)(1) - pass; 4.(b)(2) - pass; 4.(c)( 1) - pass; 4.(c)(2) pass: 4.( d)(1) - the Member for St. George. MR. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, can the Mi nister explain the

section of Water Management? MR. ENNS: I thought we just passed that a little while ago. The kind of activities involved in this division calls for planning studies for provincial water resou rce development, interprovincial and international water resource studies.

We are involved in several of them, the major one being with our friends in North Dakota while we hear only of the Garrison concerns of course, but we are actively pursuing some accommoda tion, some resolve to the Pembilier-Aux Marais and Buffalo Lake area that's near and dear to the heart of my honourable friend, the Member for Rhineland, planning and priorization and feasi bil ity stud ies for drainage systems development. This really is as distinct from the field operations, and I know that honourable members are familiar enough with the branch, there has been this separation of the two operations; Mr.

Newton being responsible for the operations in the field; Mr.

Weber being responsible in the planning and carrying out of the studies, the priorization and the feasi bilities of the di ffe rent systems; water resource report; mult idiscipli nary stud ies; water resou rces and planning support to conservat ion districts and planning districts; flood damage reduction studies and fea sibili ty stud ies for flood control projects; review of subdi visions, planning schemes and planning statements as they relate again to The Manitoba Planning Act; regulation of all provincial dams and flood control works; coordination of construction and maintenance of all water control works; development of construction and maintenance standards for water control works; dam safety program - that's a dam fine program - studies to provide physical impacts of projects; suspended sediment studies.

That's a range of the activities of this division, Mr. Chairman. The main issues of concern - if I can just indicate to honourable members, there's always some that are on a little hotter burner than others - are the continued problems that we have at the Rock Lake regulation as well as the Dauphin Lake regulation. We have much the same kind of issues and concerns, it seems, wherever there's a substantial

Monday, 6 April, 1981 body of water as to marrying the interests of the dif ferent groups, cottage owners versus ranchers and farmers versus trappers, and so forth. MR. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman , there's been some considerable discussions between your branch and the town and the R.M. of Gimli and the LG D of Armstrong, dealing with flood protection works for the community of Gimli. I'd like to ask the Minister, where is that situation at and what's happening to th at program of flood prot ect ion that was announced? MR. ENNS: Mr.

Chairman, we are currently gathering additional information, hopefully to satisfy our federal cou nterpar ts to cost-sh are in that program. It is a combina tion of that prog ram. I believe a similar program in the community of Ste. Rose as well as the more major one perhaps, in Carman, tha t the gov ernment has for the past number of years hoped for some federal participation in an overall flood reduction program to be carried out in these three communities.

The initial reaction from the Federal Government has not been all that favourable, and particularly in the instance of Gimli the request for additional data that would assist in the cost benefit studies req uired to bring about federal participation. However, I want to make it very clear, particularly the Gimli project is one that I'm personally aware of, having been involved in the situation on a few occasions where flood damage occurred, and one that the department considers very high on the priority. MR. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, the announcement for that project, I believe, had been made.

I wonder now why the Minister would have proceeded with making the annou ncement or else his predecessor making the announcement, and now holding back on the project , in view of his present state ment, Mr. Chairman. I wonder if the Minister could explain that to me. MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, the announcement that was made, in fact the action that was taken by having money allocated in our Estimates last year for the project, indicates the province's very sincere desire to proceed with that work.

It was however, done with the anticipation and hope that we would be able to, as we have on other project s, successfully negotiate some federal sharing on this and the two other particular projects that I'v e indicated, Ste. Rose and Carman. MR. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, can the Mi nister indicate the extent of the negotiations that have taken place prior to the announcement being made last year? How far did you get, or are you prepared to go ahead now since you've budge ted for the money last year, notwithstanding any approval or non-approval or concurrence from Ottawa? I mean, you made the announcement.

How far were you with your negotiations? MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, the announcement was the willing ness and the preparedne ss of the Govenment of Manitoba to proceed with this project, subject to the cost-sharing. More than that, dollars were allocated in last year's Estimates. A sim ilar situation occurred, if the honourable member will recall, there was di scussion of some length about it in the Ho use dur ing last yea r's Es tima tes with respect to the somewha t more substantial work that is required for the community of Carman.

However, we have indic ated to the Federal Go vernment that we are prepared to proceed with a less than usual share, if the cost benefits do not trigger or match federal participation. These are the kinds of negotiations that are taking place. In the case of Gimli, however, as distinct from Carman, it was a matter of not having sufficient information to satisfy Environment Canada as to their participation and we are in the process of accummulating that data, and hopefully we will have that in place for this year's construction program. MR. CHAIRMAN: 4.(d) ( 1) - pass - the Member for St. George. MR. URUSKI: Mr.

Chairman, contrary to some of the news reports that have come out in the press from time to time with respect to the non-agreement between the two councils of the R.M. of Gimli and the LGD of Armstrong, these would not be any of the factors that would have held this project up, is that correct, Mr. Chairman? MR. ENNS: That is correct. MR. URUSKI: Mr.

Chairman, if the Minister recalls and I think his staff recall going back to the latter part of '77, I corresponded with the branch on behalf of people within the Fraserwood area who would have been in the upper reaches of the Gimli floodway or the draina ge system th at fl ows into Gimli, requesting that some of this water in this area be diverted into the north branch of Willow Creek.

Does this proposed diversion of the waters - it would be in Township 19 range - in any event, approximately within the LGD of Armstrong in the area of about seven to 10 miles west of Lake Winnipeg along the Provincial Road 231 to the northwest of there, would there be any difficulty of the LGD proceed ing with their planne d or at least appr oved project s, of sending water into the north branch of Willow Creek as was approved by the branch and your former colleague in '77, wherein the LG D of Armstrong will be advised - and I'm quoting from a letter of November 22, '77 - "that it will be in order for them to proceed with the construction of the drain in the upper reaches of this watershed, using the Willow Creek drain as an outlet".

I gather there was some di spute, or at least some disagreement between the two councils, or at least it was indicated, that if this water was not allowed to continue to go its present course, that it might change the fea sibility or the impact of the proposed flood protect ion works around Gi mli. Is tha t a consideration that has now changed from '77 or whether the LG D of Armstrong still has that approval to proceed with their works to the north branch of Willow Creek. Is that still approved? MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, I am advised that is the case that the two are not contingent upon each other.

It's a qu est ion of we 'r e se eking federal participation in a flood protection measures as 2457

Monday , 6 April, 1981 opposed to carrying out what we would describe as a normal drainage program for which we don't expect and don't await federal parti cipati on. I'm advis ed by the Di rector that ap proval that was granted to the areas that the honourable member mentions still stands. MR. URUSKI: Mr.

Chairman, I thank the Minister very much because there seems to, at least in minds of some people in the area, rightly or wrongly, that: 1) that the Gimli diversion or the flood �r otection works for some reason have had an impact or would have had an impact on the LGD of Armstrorrg having their waters to be sent into the north branch of Willow Creek. That being the case that thme is no problem there of the approval as given in '77, 1 think that probably should, from the comments that were made to me, should put many minds to wst and I thank the Minister for that information. MR.

CHAIRMAN: 4.( dX 1l pass; 4.(dX2) pass The Member for Rupertsland. MR. BOSTROM: I just had one question ilere, Mr. Chairman, that is with respect to the department's efforts in the area of rese arching the underd eveloped power in Manitoba. I note from the Annuc I Report that there's an estimated four million of ccntinuous horsepower available with . . . MR. ENNS: Could the honourable member indicate the page of the report that he's reading from? MR. BOSTROM: I'm looking at Pa!Je 144, Undeveloped Water Power in Manitob a.

There's some in excess of four million estimated continuous horsepower av aiiable on a number of rivers in Manitoba that are at the present time undeveloped or at least this particular horsepower is unde veloped.

I'm wondering if the government can indicatB, seeing the Minister indicated earlier that he was ir terested in new initiatives and innovations, I would as k if they are looking at resear ching these rivers further or other rivers further, particularly with respect to the use of this natural flow being utilized in an innovative way, perhaps with smaller generating planls which could be run by hydro power for the purposes of powering industrial sites or small communitie>, etc. MR. ENNS : Mr. Chairman, the function of the department in this instance is to pr ov ide the statisti cal information to potential users.

We of course in the Province of Manitoba have only one potential user if it's the generation of hydro power involved. This information gets passed on to the utility in a regular updated manner and t�e y then have the water informa tion, the hy dro logical information on which the y can base future development, future expansion of the hydro-electric system in the Province of Manitoba. Our role' here is again to provide the kind of basic data, in te rms of the water flows, the historical record, the kind of base information that has to be fed i 1to the computer systems first before any project is even dreamt of.

MR. BOSTROM: Perhaps the Minister could answer the first part of my question. That is, what other rivers are being investigated and what rivers are 2458 proposed to be investigated as to their horsepower availability along the lines that these rivers have been investigated? MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, with the substantial reserve of this kind of unused water power that is available to the province along the systems that we are well familiar with, essentialy the Nelson, there is no active investigation going on in other lesser streams at this time.

The direction is fairly clear as to where the next developments with respect to hydro plants will occur. MR. CHAIRMAN: 4.(dX 1) pass; 4.(dX2) pass. The Member for Rupertsland. MR. BOSTROM: I note that the department in the past has certainly looked at the capacity of various rivers as indicated in the Annual Report and I'm wondering how they came to actually estimate the availability on these rivers. What statistical technique have they been using? MR. ENNS: Mr.

Chairman, I'm advised that this information comes principally from ongoing hydrometric studies that the department and the province co-operates with the assistance of the Federal Government in providing us with this kind of information. I would have to say principally again on the rivers and streams that we're familiar with. MR. BOSTROM: In relat ionship to the other question which I asked. The Minister seemed to indicate that the only agency that could potentially develop a water power site would be Manitoba Hydro.

Now I'm not familiar enough with the Act to know if that's prohibition on anybody else attempting to develop a site for their own use, for community use or for indus trial use. I'm wondering if the Minister has entertained any applications from individuals or groups or companies that may want to look at the possibility of developing a small site for community use or industrial use and if that would be possible under the present regulations and laws of Manitoba. MR. ENNS: Mr.

Chairman , it would certainly be possible as far as the reg ulations that this department is concerned with, the division of water resources concerned with. I too must acknowledge not having full knowledge of all the clauses of The Manitoba Hydro Act as to whether that precludes anybody from developing their own power resources. I suspect rather not. It may preclude them from using the distribution network or system of Manitoba Hydro in a way that could I suppose be competitive with Manitoba Hydro.

Whether or not an individual installation to service a particular plant or a need is precluded is an interesting question, one that I will take up with the Minister responsible for Hydro or invite the honourable member to take up with him. But the Director of Water Resources indicates to me that we would provide the same statistic al information with respect to water flows on this or on any river system in the province to an applicant. He also advised me we have not received any such application. MR. CHAIRMAN: 4.(dX2) pass; 4.(eX 1) pass.

Monday , 6 April, 1981 The Member for St. George. MR. URUSKI: Mr. Cha irman, could the Minister ind icate this br anch in terms of reg ional management. Would that deal in drainage systems within regions? MR. ENNS: The activities taken by this division of the department ess entia lly enu nciate and relate pol icy to local go vernments.

Official branch repres entation for example to conservation dis tricts and Fe deral-Provincial project com mitt ees, articulation of local concerns to the branch, guidan ce to long-range planning, development of yearly regional maintenance and construction programs, again regulation of water control works and liaising with other go vernment departments, local government councils and boards and provides the ongoing interface with the Engineering Construction Branch with respect to branch programs.

Some of the particular areas of concern are: In the southwest region the Souris River flooding; the Whitemud River flood ing; Pelican Lake regulation; Rock Lake regulation; beaver problems adjacent to the Riding Mountain National Park; in the Interlake region; the Council of the Rural Municipality of Gimli in the Town of Gimli are of course concerned about the flood protection which we've already dealt with; in the eastern region we have major studying and negotiations taking place with the newly developed Cooks Creek Cons erva tion District involving the resolution to some of the drainage problems in that area of the province; in the southeast region we are working with the south lateral drain with the RM of Hanover; the Town of Emerson is concerned that improvements are req uired with respect to their dikes in that community; the RM of Macdonald is impatient, it's required to get on with some dik ing in the Brunkild community.

In other words, it is the division that works with the various regional concerns, with the local governments, the LGDs and with the five Water Conservations Districts that we presently have operating in the province. MR. URUSKI: Yes, thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I have some specific questions dealing with, it would be I presume the Birch Creek Watershed District in the LG D of Grahamdale, and that deals specifically with areas of what are known as the fishline drain area where the commun ity of Moosehorn has been flooded annually. 1980 during the period of drought one would, by looking at these pictures that I have received from some of the residences there, would say that we have a beach and a lake where the round bales are half in water - the big round hay bales. Mr.

Chairman, that drainage basin has long given this area many problems with respect to backups and flooding of vast areas of land. I'm sure the branch is probably at certain times almost sick and tired of the amount of letter that I have written on this subject. There was some work started on a portion of this drain last year on what is known as the Dog Hu ng Creek portion of -(l nterjection) that's just about as bad , Mr. Chairman, on that portion of the dra in. I wonder, Mr. Chairman, and I ask the Minister whether there will be some further works on this drain.

There are many residents in the community of Moosehorn and all the farming population along the roads and drainage in this area were flooded and have been flooded - I would say in the last five years probably three out of the five years have been severly hit. I could show the Minister some of the pictures that were given to me of the floods of August 21 of 1980 where the vast tracts of hay land and crops were inundated as a result of the rains and the backup of water that this system could not handle.

I ask the Minister specifically whether this drain will be, or at least the beginnings of this drain will be, upgr aded this coming year. MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, we intend to proceed up Dog Hung Creek in a deli berate fashion and we have allocated an additional $75,000 towards that project in the coming year. I can appreciate the honourable member's concern having visited that area, after what I'm sure he will admit, unprecedented rainfall, particularly this fall in a very few hours.

I doubt very much whether draina ge in many parts of the province could withstand that kind of unprecedented rainf all; however, I don't di sagree with the honourable member that area doesn't generally need some drainage improvements. I think I can only indicate to him that in the overall priorities of the program, the areas receiving some attention - that we can discuss perhaps more fully when we get to the capital portion of the Estimates - but I can indicate to him now that some additional work is being planned in that area. MR.

CHAIRMAN: 4.(e)(2) - pass; 4.(f) (1) - pass; 4.(f)(2) - pass; 4.(g)( 1) - pass the Member for St. George. MR. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, in terms of the Flood Reduction Agreements, are there other communities that the branch has on record with respect to flood reduction in terms of priorities, in terms of costs and damages that have been done in the past? MR. ENNS : Mr. Chairman, for the member's informa tion, the title on this

section of the appropriation may be somewhat misleading to the honourable members. This is a program that's carried out by the branch that covers a large number of the communities in Manitoba in the mapping, surveying and identifying the flood plains, flood areas, throughout the Province of Manitoba. There are some 45 Manitoba communities involved to date; five communities have been designated. These are the Towns of Melita, Wawanesa, the City of Winnipeg, the Town of Souris and Elie. Negotiations are taking pla ce with the Federal Government for an agreement respect ing additional flood forecast ing information.

This is not the flood reduction program that I think if I'm correct that the honourable member is referring to, that is the raising of buildings or the removal of buildings and/or the provision of individual dik es where that's called for. I may be wrong but I assumed that perhaps was the program that the honourable member had in mind. MR. URUSKI: Yes. MR. CHAIRMAN: I wonder, Commit tee, if I could back up just a little bit. I missed calling 4.(f)(3), if we allow the Chairman to 4.(f)(3) - pass; and back on to 4.(g) - the Member for St. George. 2459

Monday, 6 April, 1981 MR. URU!iJ<I: I'm saying as we were back there, Mr. Chairman .. MR. CHAIRMAN: It's got to be the mistake of the world. MR. URUSKI: I thank you for the apport mity, Mr. Chairman, could the Minister detail the grants from the conservat ion dis tric ts and possib iJ' explain whether there is any change in the grant structure dealing with the funding of conservation districts in terms of the drainage construction and r1aybe he can bring me up to date on the percentage:; of costs that are now shared under the present prog ·am? MR. ENNS: No, Mr.

Chairman, I'm ad v ised that there has been no change to the progr am as originally set up. The sharing arrangements continue to be th e same; there are some dif ferent classifications, 70-30, as between the province and the districts. MR. URUSKI: On No. 3 drains? MR. ENNS: On No. 3 drains. That's right. MR. URUSKI: And down? MR. ENNS: 70-30 on all of them, all of them, I'm told. MR. CHAIRMAN: 4.(f)(3) - pass - the Hc nourable Minister. MR.

ENNS: Pardon me - the other question the honourable member asked - there's been a general increase to take into account the increased costs of providing these works of some $121 ,000, some what in excess of 7 percent, 7.5 percent. It's a cc,ncern to me, the capability of the conservation diHtricts to maintain the level of their programs.

We have found that we have been able in some instances, some of the districts that had be�n in the program for a longer period of time have been able to do with somewhat less - although I don't believe any dis trict actually is receiving less dollar:; - but we have for instance allocated to some of the newer districts, the Cooks district for instance receiving in excess of this amount because of the fact 1 hat they are just coming on stream and have a great deal of work to do. MR.

URUSKI: So therefore, roughly $8 00,0 00 increase in the grants would take into account these increased works that the Minister has spoken about. MR. ENNS: That is correct. Mr. Chairmar ,, before we leave that though and I'll just touch on it now, not to enter into a discussion about it, in addition to that there has been a federal -provincial agreement signed involving drainage. This was undertaken by the Department of Agri culture in their valu.�-added program which is being di rected again in specific areas.

One of the areas under consid eration is the conservation district that we're just now di scussing in the Cooks Creek area which, if satisfactory final negotiations can be concluded , could com;iderably increase the availability of funds in that area. 2460 MR. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, have any projects that have boon requested by dis tricts, have any of them had to be put back because of provincial funding not being available, the matching up? MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, these are grants that are provided annually to the districts.

They then make the decision as to how Jpey are applied and on to what projects within their di stricts. We do not predetermine for them as to their application. MR.

URUSKI: Yes, I realize that the program is a grant but I am assuming - and the Minister can correct me - is that the branch that deals with the conservation di stricts is the same branch that provides the gr ants and also provides the engineering advice to that district, so that basically it's a hand-in-hand operation I would assume unless the Minister is telling me that these distric ts are hiring their own consultants and their own engi neers to do their work.

I am assuming that the branch would be involved very closely with the districts and that it would really be a matter of recommendations to the local board by the engineering services and then the decisions would be made as to what extent the local municipalities can participate in, in the size of project that they decide upon. I'm assuming that's basically the process that is undertaken by the boards. MR. ENNS: I think the Honourable Member for St. George descri bed the program fairly well, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: 4.(f)(3) - pass - the Member for St. George. MR. URUSKI: Then, Mr.

Chairman, the Minister did not answer my question. Have there been requests for funding that have had to abide by the district board that were not under taken as a result of the level of funding that is provided from the branch? MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, it would be highly unusual if dis tricts such as these did not have a shopping list considerably greater or longer than what a government, any government, can respond to in any given year. I'm advised that I believe this year their requests were in the order of some $375,0 00 additional moneys.

We were able to come up with $121,000 additional increase to moot that request. So a short answer to the honourable member is, yes, there have been projects that have had to have been delayed for lack of money. MR. URUSKI: The Minister indicated there are five conservation dis tricts that are now in operation. Are there any others that are near the fruition stage anywhere in the province at the present time? MR. ENNS: No, Mr. Chairman. I should indicate that it was the hope of my immediate predecessor, and continues to be my hope, of bringing into force a revised Water Management Act.

It may still be possible for me to, if not pass it through this session, but to table the legislation if I can get it to that point. The legislation calls for a fairly substantial change in the relationship between the Provincial

Monday, 6 April, 1981 Government and municipalities in how to carry on with the provision of an overall water management in their areas. It has some difficulties in terms of water being what it is, that the contributing municipality isn't always faced with equal costs and I would want to have a substantial amount of discussion between municipal and local government dis tricts prior to the introduction of any new and fundamental changes to Water Management policies in this province. I cite that only because that possibly has been one of the reasons for lack of further development of conservat ion districts.

I will leave any other spe culations to the Ho nourable Memb er for St. George. MR. CHAIRMAN: 4.(fX3) - pass - the Member for St. George. MR. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, we'll allow (

f) to pass. I'm sorry. MR. CHAIRMAN: 4.(g)( 1) has passed; 4.(g) (2) - pass - the Member for St. George. MR. URUSKI : Mr. Chairman, there have been numerous delegations and requests from the Village of Riverton with respect to some further flood protection for that community. The community was flooded as a result of the diking system not extending far enough beyond the community as a result during the high waters a number of years ago. The flood waters were able to come around the diking system and flood a part of the community includ ing the high school and a numb er of residences.

There have been requests for either a diversion which would probably prove very costly or an extension of the di king system from the community to PTH 8, a distance in some areas of about a mile but not all areas would have to be diked, it would only be the low-lying areas where the floodwaters did jump the river bank. I wonder whether the Minister and his branch have any intentions of further ex tending the requests for diking around the Community of Riverton. MR. ENNS: Mr.

Chairman, Riverton is one of those areas that has been designa ted in the Canada Manitoba Flood Reduction Study Plans and that really should be acknowledged as the first step towards some greater attention to it. The mapping and surveying can be undertaken under this program and then places us in a better position to have the necessary data available to us to, in the future, apply for assistance under the· Flood Protection Program; but Riverton is an area that has been so designated. MR. URUSKI : Mr. Chairman, since it has been designa ted, to what extent is the study being undertaken this year?

Is Riv erton one of the communities that the necessary preliminary work will be undertaken in terms of dete rmining to what extent and what the alternatives are in terms of providing ad equa te flood protect ion for that community? MR. ENNS: I'll have to undertake to get that information for the honourabl e member, it's not available to me at this time. 2461 MR. CHAIRMAN: 4(g)(2) pass; 4(h)( 1) pass; 4(hX2) pass; 4 (j) . The Member from St. George. MR. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, under (

h) there has been a deletion of the expenditure under the Prairie Provinces Water Board, Water Demand Study, can the Minister explain the reasons for that? MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, I'm advised that the study is to be completed this year and therefore not additional funds are being requested. MR. URUSKI : Mr. Chairman, can the Minister outline briefly for me what the study was about? MR.

ENNS: The objects of this program are to do an inventory and evaluate available data on water req uirements and useage in the Saskatchewan Nelson Ri ver basi n; to determine current water demands and use in the basin; to analyze the built up of uses and how they occurred; to ident ify weakn esses and inaccuracies in exist ing ... information, collection and retrieval systems and to recommend improvements. MR. CHAIRMAN: 4(h) - the Memb er for St. George. MR. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, the study dealing with the Nelson Ri ver Basins, were there recommendations that the government has acted upon from that Study Board?

MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, it has to do with demand and supply. The first study identifies the available supply and we now are in a position to marry that to the deman d, particula rly with the interprovincial passage of waters dealing with the Saskatchewan Nelson River basin. The current activities will be incorpo rated into the water provinces, annual operating budget, of which Manitoba is responsible for paying one-sixth.

The Water Resources Branch, at the request of the Board, has also undertaken, or has arranged for all required studies in Manitoba with respect to municipal and industrial water supply water used for power generat ion, environ mental considerations, agricultu ral water use, and recreat ional water use. MR. URUSKI : Mr. Chairman, there would be marrying up and there were no shotguns involved I'm assuming in what the Minister was speaking about. Would the requirements of a project like ManFor be involved in that study? MR.

ENNS: Very much so, that would come under the heading of the industrial potential, you know, current water users and/or potential water users. MR. CHAIRMAN: 4(hX2) pass; 4(jX1) pass. The Member for St. George. MR. URUSKI: Mr. Cha irman, could the Minister explain the specifics of the expenditur es? Is that primarily dealing with the Cooks Creek area that he mentioned before in terms of the value added, or are there other projects involved in this? MR. ENNS: The specific projects that are under review in this value-added problem is to demons trate

M·tmday , 6 April, 19 81 ----------------------------------- impr oved draina ge and water mana·�eme nt technology for the Almasippi wet sands crea, to develop optimum draina ge pla ns for se lected watersheds having potential for value-addE'd crop productions - and that involves the Cook�; Creek district, that involves the La Salle ... The moneys for these projects are under the capital Acquisition/ Construction Assets, these are again are the studies and there is an area, in the Portage area, referred to as the Overh ill drain. There are about three specific areas that are involved. Is that right gentlemen? MR.

URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, how does this type of study differ from what the branch presently does in terms of determ ining the cost-benefit analysi!. of any draina ge program that they now undertakE!? How does this type of program vary from what they now presently undertake? MR. ENNS: Fundamentally there is no difference in the approach to any other drainage unde rta� en, the cost benefits are established. The dif ference here, the additional imput here is the value of thB crops that these particular lands or se ctions of the province have been identified by the Department of Agriculture.

In other words, with the applicCition of more intensive draina ge, potential application of sprinkler irrigation in some instances, to specialized di versified crops, that is added to the formula in arriving at the cost-benefit figures that a1 e then applied and even tually pla y a role in the determination of whether or not the project can or should proceed. MR. URUSKI: Well, Mr. Chairman, I hope I didn't hear the Minister correctly.

I'm hoping t11at the Minister is, and I will ask him, is he indicating that type of an analysis of the value of cro� s in a particular region, when drainage is being imoroved, is not now being undertaken, when a draina!Je is to be improved or not or actually built? MR. ENNS: No, Mr. Chairman, that observat on is a corre ct one. Th at consideration is alwa �ts and generally applied to the est ablishing of cost--benefit ratios. These are, however, specific zones in the province that have been identified by the Department of Agriculture for being particularly suitable for the application of special crops.

It could be the question of increasing corn production in certain a1eas or increasing certain vegetable production in certain areas and it's a combination of identifying, rr arrying the soil base, kind of agricultural diversifica tion that can take place. Great program, Mr. Chairmar , again one of those innovative efforts on the part of this government that Manitoba farmers have come to expect from it. MR. CHAIRMAN: 4(j)(1) pass. The Member for St. George. MR. URUSKI: Mr.

Chairman, just so that I und erstand the Minister correct ly, this p1·ogram varies no dif ferently from any other assessmE,nt that is being done, other than a governmental priority in terms of designating specific area agreeme nts? MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, I want to exercis·� some caution here because the determination here does 2462 not dr ess solely within this depart ment. The Department of Agriculture is heavily involved and the determination of the soil base is a very important determ ining factor in selection of these zones. I would want to assure the honourable member that politics play no

part in this designation if that's what is concerning the honourable member. MR. URUSKI: No, Mr. Chairman, I mean, I hope the Minister himself is enough of a politician that he does make political decisions in terms of what programs receive higher priority and which don't and he has already indicated, through our entire dis cussions this even ing, some areas receive greater priorities than others, a decisi

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	31-5-52b
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	31st 5th hansardpdf 52b.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	a375a66f765b9f5109cc8f2e8adf643967264114

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