Volume XL Tuesday Province of Newfoundland FORTIETH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND Fourth Session VERBATIM REPORT (Hansard} Speaker: Honourable P.J. McNicholas • Nmnber 60 21 June 1988

The House met at 2:00 p.m . MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): Order, please! L'll hen we ad j our ned the House 1 as t ntght at ten o'cJ.ock, I had somE! doubt in my mind as to how we should proCE!ed today. I wilJ. just quote part of Standing Or·der No . 8: 11 Mr.

Speaker shall adjourn the House without question put, provided that alJ. businE!SS not dispoSC:'d of at . t.i"w t.errrdna t·ion of the sitting shall stand over until t h e n C:~ x L s i t. t i n g d a y IAJ h C:~ n i. t 1~.rl J. 1. be taken up at the same stage where i.ts progress was interrupted. 11 I was nol : clE~dr "i.n my m.i.nd whether · we should carry on exactly in debate today . In other 1..uords, that the han. the Leader of the Opposition would immediately CRrry on the debate or whether we should have our ordinary daily routine .

I lookE!d up the precedents of thr:~ House and I found three that ar'E! appropriate. I have ler~t out: the Wednesday ones because it is Private Members' Day and different . The ones I found, if hon. members would like to take note, are: 1977, May 9 and June 9; and 1970, April 27. When the House adjourned at E!leven o'clock on the follo1)dng dates, May 9 and June 9. 1977, and April 27. 1970, thC:~ next day, in ever·y case, the routine Orders of the Day were go n e t h r o u g h bE! f o r e UHc' d e bate was resumed, and in no case was the debal:e stRrted immechately.

So for l:hc:li: rec1SOtl I Feel that what we should do today is get into the routine busi.rH::~ss, and I call for StatemE:~nts by Ministers. Then I will call the hon. the Leader of the Opposition to resume the debate that we had last night . L3 322 June 21, 1988 Vol XL Statements by Ministers MR. DOYLE : Mr. SpE:~aker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the MJ.ni ste r· of Transpor·tation. SOME HON. MEMBERS: H ~:.~ar, hear! MR. DOYLE : Mr ·. SpE! ake r, I am p] E!a sed t:o announ ce to th e hon . Ho usG of Ass embly toda y a Jis t o-f p r o j ect:~; v a J. u e d .:1 1:. $ /.6 . 5 1n i.l.l. ·i. on SOME HON .

MEMBERS : --- ----------- Hear, hear! MR . DOYLE : - to be publicalJ.y tendered by rny department ov er the next few week s for highway upgrading and paving throughout the Province. Mr. Speaker, these transportation improvement proje cts will be carried out during the 1988 construction season . fhey l.rJi ll be funded under the $100 million ERDA Enrichment Agreement signed with the Federal Government yesterday - SOME HON. MEMBERS : HE~ar, hear! MR. DOYLE: - as part of our Newfoundland and Labrador Transportation Initiative. So, Mr.

Speaker, we are moving quil:e expE:~ditiousJ.y indE~ed to gf:~t these projects out so that they can be corn p 1 e t (~ d t h :i. s cons t r u c t ion season. The projects to be tendered are as Follows: 1 . The upgrading of a 20 KM No. 60 (Afternoon) R3322 '

section of Trans-Labrador from Churchill Falls Wabush. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! H-ight~oJay towards 2. The construction and paving of Penetangulshene By--pass, in St. John1S. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. DOYLE: 3. Resurfacing and improvements to intersections on Route 210 between Red Harbour and Marystown. SOME l-ION. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. DOYLE: 4. Paving St. Bride1s to Branch. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! S. The:~ upgradJng of Po-.-i.nt. Li:trlCC:~ Road. 6. The paving of a 12 KM

section of Bur·geo Rodd. SOME HON. MF-MBERS: Hear, hear! MR. DINN: Burg eo? MR. DOYLE: Burgeo Road. MR. DINN: Sure the member is against that. MR. DOYLE: 7. Upgrading 205, H:illvietAJ Within. and paving totAJards St. SOME HON. MEMBERS: He:~ar, hear! L3 323 JunE:~ 21, 1988 Route Jones Vol XL MR. DOYLE: 8. Paving Route 204 from U.ttle Heart1s FasE:~ to Soul:hpo-rt. SOME HON. MEMBERS: He:~c!lr', hear·! MR. DOYLE: 9. Pav·ing Rou l:.e ~~20 and 4-21 towards Jackson1s Arm and Hampden. SOME l-ION. MEMR E f~S: HE!ar, hear! MR. DOYLE: And, Mr. Speaker, a part of our longstanding commitment: 10.

The upgrading and pavjng of Roddickton towards Englee. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. DINN: Sure he is against the agreement. MR. DOYLE: Mr. SpE:~akc~r, thE~ <:·d:wvc;o named projects, r·eptnesE!nt a sigrd.Ficant :.i.ncrr~ase :i.n Hw l:ot:Al a1nount. of:­ highway upgrading and pav:ing to be carr :i.e d o u 1: i n t h P. Pro 1ri. n c c,~ t hi s year under the Federal/Provincial ERDA AgrP.ement. In the Fall of 1987 projE!Cts valued at $34-.6 m:i.ll. Lon I.I.H,~re <Hlnouncc.;!d lHldE!r· this agreement and what we have announced today will total. $61.1 million under the EIWA agreE•mE:•nt.

The project:s to be carried out are spread throughout the Island portion of our Prou:incE!, as IAJEd.l as Labrador. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. DOYLE: This demonstrates commitment on the government to provide efficient network of No. 60 (Afternoon) a strong part of a safe and secondary R3323

roads in the Pr·ovince. In addition to these projects, the $40 million :in provincial projects previously announced, amount to a total in excess of $100 million to be spent on highway - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. DINN : How come the Premier :is not gone dmun to Government House? SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. DOYLE : I am sure that members opposite will want to hear that again just in case they did not get that figure. ln excess of $100 million will be spent on highway upgrading and paving throughout the Prouince this present year. SOME HON. MEMBERS : H(->.ar, hear! MR.

DOYLE: The employment to be gE!nE!rated by this construction activity tAli 11 be substantial and the benefits will be felt in virtually all parts of Net..oJfoundland. Mr. Speaker, the agreement signed with the federal government on June 20, 1988 is for a fifte(>.n year· period and in th(->. months and years ahead I will be announcing to the House of Assembly many additional projects to be undertaken in future years. The Newfoundland Transportation Initiative includes thre:~e major road improvement packages.

The projects which I have just announced for·m only the beginning of a $100 million enrichment of our present ERDA agre~~mE:~r)l :. Over the nr:~xt four years many areas of t h E! P r o v i. n c E! I Ali 11 b e n e F :l i:. F r· o m road improvements from that L3324 June 21, 1988 Vol XL particular agreement . WE:~ have yet to concludE! tl'w precise projects which will form part of $235 million agreement for upgrading regional trunk roads. However, Funding tdill begin on that agreement very soon, Mr. Speaker. Mr.

Speaker, we shall continUE! our progr ess in upgr ading the Tran s-Canada Highway to national s l: a n d cH' d s . ~'

I) h i l. E! no n e o f U1 £?. project s I announce today form part of t:.he Tr ·ans .. ·-Canacla Highway, I fully E!Xpe c t to bE:~ pl a CJ. ng beforo lh:i.s :lou s(; ! on an annual basis an additional $405 million oF lAJO r k as a re s u 1 L oF t h ('! n eL~J Newfoundland and Labrador rran :;por'Lt'IL'i.on Ini t.i.at ·i.v(,;,. Just to gi.lH~ memi:H:~rs oppostt~:!, Mr.

Speaker, somE! idE!a of -thE! e x p e n d i. t u r e s IAJ h i c h g o v e r· n rrHo' n t lo~.Ji J. 1 be undertaking in the fifteen-year l"lfe~ of thai: agreement, th er··e will, as we indicated yesterday, be an $800 million funding package announced by government which will be spent over the next fifteen years. There is currentJ.y $86 million remaining in the present ERDA agreemE!nt.

BaSE!d on a minimum of a $4 .0 million provincial exp(~nd:ittH'€' which the government makes available each year through its roads program, over a fifteen-year period that will amount to $600 million and wiJ.l totaJ. $1.5 b J. 11 i o n lAJ h i c h t h i ~' g o u E! r n rn e n t tJ.ri 11 be undertaking, Mr. Speaker, as part oF its transportation initiative. Add to that the other agrE!ernE!nts, OlJer· and above l:h(,' rai1tAJay that lAJe will be negotiating with the fed0ral gouernmenl during that fifteen-year period, and you haVE! No. 60 ( After·noon) R3324

a package of funding which will be take the people of Newfoundland and Labrador into the 21st Century with a good transportation system. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hea1n! MR. GILBERT: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAI<F.:R: The-?. hon. the mE!ITtber fotn Burgeo Bay 01Espo-i.r. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. GILBERT: Mr. Speaker, I am glad that the minister acted so quickly on the agre~1ment signed yesterday. I am sure the people have suffered during the years who have lived in t:hose areas LlJhere they needed those roads paved.

But I Ll.Jonder :if t h c:1 price we are pet yin g for· it is going to be worth it. There is old expression out in PJ.acent:i.a Bay: 11I wond~1r i.s the shot going to be worth the powder11• SOME HON. MFMBERS: H~1Cir, h(~aln! MR. GILBERT: When it really boils down, what we have herE:1 is a s'i.l~.uati.on tJJhere we are selling the railway to get these funds to do the secondary roads agrE!ement. In other words, we had to sell something to get a secondary roads agreement. In the three years since I have been in this House, we have been promised a secpndary roads agreement, Mr.

Speaker, and the price we had to pay wi.ll have to be checked out in time as we have L3325 June 21. 1988 Vol XL now concluded a deaJ. in which we are going to close the Newfoundland Railway.

As far as my f'i.gurr::1s are concEH'nE!d, very quickly it looks this $100 million that wo are talking about, well that is $63 million from thE! feder,:~J. governmE!nl, th(;! $405 million I am not qui tE:1 sure as to hotAJ i: hi<1-l: J s g oJ. ng l:.o b('! s prt':l a.d. and then there is another $235 rn-i.ll'i.on Lhi"'t .i.s to cotrJ('! som,~timc:' i n t h E! f u t u r e , o f IJJ h i c h $ 1 4· 7 m:i.ll.i.on of thdi: ·i.s cont:i.ng Fr·om the feds. So what we are talking r'E:Hd.ly, l suppOS(o1, ·.:i.s IAJ~~ ar·e talking about ·$235 m:i.llion we have sold our railway for.

I am glad we are going to have a secondary i3.greernc~1nt and ar'E! going to haVE! somE! of these roads paVE!cl since we have IJJai ted a long tirne, but the thing I would be more interested hearing thE! minister say is, instead of announcing aJ.l of thosE:1 proj,~cts he is supposE•d to be announcing over the next ftfteen yc-?.ars, l 1..uould rnuch r·ather if he Ll.Jas going to tE!ll. mE• that there was an agreement in place to be able to maintain those roads once thE!Y IAJerE! in place. That is the question I ask the minister. I 1..uouJ.cl say yo11t' probJ.(:•rn is go:ing to be maintaining Lhis road, Mr.

Speaker, re1ther than the announcements of upgrading. I IJ.Jould not worry too much clbout making the annout'lCE~tnt:!nts if I IJJ(~.r'e the minister. The only annol.ll'lCE!Tnent you should make o~J(:H' there is to call the election, then we will see how the announcements are going to be made. SOME liON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. LONG: Mr. Speaker. No. 60 ( AftE:1rnoon) R3325

MR. SPEAKER: The han. the:~ memb('!r for St. John 1 s East. MR. LONG : -----Mr. Speaker, the whole:~ matter of· the statement by the minister today confirms rny own reaction to the deaJ. as it was announced yesterday . What we have is the government of the day taking a very serious issue, namely, the dissolution of the operation of the r·ailtJ.Jay, and turning it int :o a political campaign. The ministe:~r today comes in and confirms that the whole context in which the deal. tAJas struck yester·day was t.o give the government of this Province more discretionary authority to spend moniE!S for· political purposes.

The:~ t~Jct y l he P rom:i. (-i!Y' and o t h(~ r ministers and other members of the government are appauding the announcements and the promise of mor·e announcements of t:hi .s ldnd to come:~ just shows the essential. purpoSE! oF lhe dr:~aJ. struck by the Premier yesterday was to begin re-election plans and to be:~gin spending money paving roads aJ.l across the Province. I do not think, Mr.

Speaker, the Minister of Transportat-ion or the Premier should take a whole lot of pride in making an announcement and striking a deal with the federal government yesterday on an issue everybody in this Province takes very, very close to their hearts, and to see that the whole resolution of our· histori.c rights to protection of our transportation needs have been resolved in a very political way.

I think the minister today has c o n f -i. r rn ,,~ d t. h a t. the a c L:i. on s of t. h r,~ government are simply designE!d to pave roads tA.Ji.th the~ 'i.nt~:!nti.on of L3326 June 21, 1988 Vol XL winning votes, but I think the people of the Province are not going to respond so warmly and in such a happy fash.Lon as all the ministers across the way are today. PREMIER PECKFORD : Mr . Speaker . MR . SPEAKER : ThE! han. the Prerrd .E!r . SOME HON . MEMBERS: HE:~iH', hear·! PREMIER PECKFORD : Mr. Speaker, I am UE!ry pJE•a sNl today l:.o tab le the annual repor·t of the Canada - Newfoundland Off s hor e~ PetroJ.

N il'n Bo ard for 19 8'7 - 1988, as is re:'quired pursuant to Th~~ At 1.antic Accor ·d lrnplc.;!rn€Hltation Acts. The report covers a pE•riod from rlpr:i.l 1., 1987 lo Mar·ch 31, 1988, the SE!COnd full year of the Roard's operation.

Highl igh ts of th e Bo ard' s Report are as Follows: The federal and provjnciaJ Atlantic Accord T.mplE!ment:.at.ion Act. were simuJ.taneously procJ.aimed on April 4-, 1987; Operations offshore were at about thE! same J.evel as last year tAd. th five new wells spudded and two previousJ.y drilled wells re-entered and evaluated; An exploration well was drilled in the South Whale Basin in 1,577 meters of water - a Canadian water depth record; Four sign ·if i can t e v (;! n t s occurred , including one rig fire which caused interruption of operations but no injur.ies or significant e n t) :i. r o 11111 e n t. a J. r:~ f f e c t. s ; A c a l J. f o r· b :i. cl s o n f~ i. g h ·t. p a r c e 1 s No. 60 (Afternoon) R3326

comprising 258, 141 hectares was issued in March, 1988 with closing to be on September 28, 1988; - Mr.

Speaker, this is a very significant evt::~nt in the J.ife of the board and of offshore dE:~veJ.opm~~nts offshor·e hE:1rC"! becausE:1 we are very interestr:~d, of course both govE:H'nfrJ('.!nts clrr:~. etncl th.is government in particular, in SE!einy thE:~ kind of .i.nt('!rPsi: l:hnt t.AJe get fr·orn this call for bids of eight parcels, 258,000 hectetres, r· e c o g n i z i n g , a s rn o s t h o n . me rn b e r s d o , R n d tho s ~~ p (:! o p 1. 0. fa m i J. i. ;u· lA/ .i t h the industry, that these land s etl e s a r C:! o c c u r· -i. n g lJ e r· y c l o s E! t o the WhitE:~ RosE:~ discoVE!ry.

So t.ue tAr:i.ll be J.ook·ing IAJH:h a greR t. dE:Hd of interest as to the level of interE:~st in th(~se bids in September which, of course, will stimulate additional exploration activity off our shores, given that the bids t.uill be assessed on the basi s of how m u c h the bidders wi 11 bE! p u t t i n g i n to the a c t i v i t y offshore, so that IAJe can E!XpE!Ct and anticipate even now that there L>Jill be an increased in acUvity as i~ result of this saJ.e. ThE:1 level of that increase activity tJJill await as to who will be the successful bidders on those eight parcels of land .

The tot.Rl d:iscovt'!rE!d r·esoiJY'ces Offshore Ne~foundland were est .i.mahc~d by thE! So;u·d, <:\'1.: 50 per· ct7.nt probability of occurE!nce, to be: Oil., 1.?.29 mi .l.l.ion betrt"els; Gas, 4 billion cu.bic feet; and Naturetl Gas Li.q11i.ds at 21.4· million bar·rels . Also during this past year draft guidelines for preparation of development planned applications were prepared and a consultative process commenced with the industry over thesE:1 guidc7.lines for the development plan. L3327 June 21, 1988 Vol XL And a computerized Shotpoint Location System was put into operation by the Board.

As has al.rE~ady been, I l:htnk, prE!Viously announCE!d, Mr·. SpE!aker, and I would just like to highlight it aga:in now for hon. rnernbers -;_ n For rn i'l l:J . o n . t h e Boa r· d :i s proceeding with the building of o l.tr' c o r o s t o r ;:., g o s h rc> d h E~ r c,, , I lhink it is in UlE! 0 1 LE!ary AvenUE! RY'(~a. '~Jh .ic il IAJa s a very :irnpor ·tanl:·. component, both symbolically and J.l'l rt:1i'tl 1:E!I"ffiS. R-Lghl: l'lOIAJ a. lot:-. or~ the core dr.i1led ofFshotnE! and IAJhich ts usod for· exarn-.ination ·.is stored on the Mainland.

One of thE! provisions of the A t.l. ant :i c A c c CH' d tJJa s t hal:. t h c~ cor· e offshore Newfoundland had to be stored in Newfoundland and industry and academia who wanted to do studies and assessment on t he c ore t he n wo u 1 d h a v E! to do i t :in Newfoundland . ThE!Y haVE:1 brought land and caJ.lE!d tenders for the building and it will be f:inished this Fall and then we wilJ.

SE!e, beforE! the end of this year, all of the core material frorn way back in the 1960s, when the driJ.J.ing started first in Newfoundland right up to now, 'AriJ.J. r:ornE'! back t.o Newfoundland and all I1E!lAJ cor'E! drilled ofFshore will remain in Newfoundland and industry from all ove1n thE:1 wor·ld and i:'lcachwd.c pE!Ople will have to come to Newfoundland in order· l:o clo thwlr· assc,~ssrnenl: .s. That is a small, but syrnboJic benefit the~t t.AJ<~ already S{"!E! From the Atlantic Accord, as we do in the oper·ntions, of course, of the Offshore Board itself. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, he~r! MR.

WELLS: No. 60 (AFternoon) R3327

Mr . Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Lecu:Jer of the Opposition . MR. WELLS : Thank you, Mr. Speaker . Mr '. Speaker, tJ.Je tAJill haVE! an oppotntunity to SE!B the report, read J.t, and thE!n addrE!SS the contE!nts. We do not know tJ.Jhat is in it so it is a b·it. difficult. to deal with it now. I am just a Jittle bit confused by · the suggestion that the operations offshore were at about the same level as last year because it seems to me that last night's news reported that they werA down 39 per cent. I do not know which is accurate. AN HON. MEMRER : ·rhis is accurclte . MR. WELLS: Well.

I do not know which is accurate. I cannot determine t.uhich is accurate, but I will check it t.o see. Whether the development of Hibernia is announced in the m~xt fetAl days or not. I hope exploration continues because, of course, the economy of Newfoundland bE! nefi t s g rE!a t.l y from the offshore exploration activity. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) is very important . MR. WELLS: I think it probably will. The economy of this ProvincE:~ benE:!fil:s greatly from exploration act.iviti .es, so I hopE:~ that. U1dt continues at a rE!asonable paCE!.

Unfortuna'l:E!ly. thE:~ policies of the L3328 June 21. 198H Vol XI_ present federal government are not as conducive to exploration as those of the previous government but still it is going on. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear. hear! MR. WELLS: I IAJoul.d also 1 :ike to s uppor·l~. thE! Premier's comments about what he calls a small but syrnbol:Lc gc~s l:ur'e of having the cores stored in NetAJfoundland. I shal"(>. hts vic:nAJ. I think it :is jrnportant that t::hE:•y are, in fact, stored here and accessible to persons interested and who hav(~ a nE'!(->.d t.o see them and access them here.

I think while it may be symbolic and there may bE! sorne indit"ect: bE!nE!fit. but: I thl.nk ii~ is significant and I support the Premier's commE!nts in that r·r,~gard. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. LONG : Mr·. SpE:~cli<E:!r' . MR. SPEAKER : The hon . the ITIE!rnber for St. John's F.:ast . MR. LONG: Mr·.

Speai<Hr, IA.I~~ welcome the publication of the report by thE· Pe t.roleum 13oca·d but ~auld tab:! the opportunity to say to the Prernj er that, :in view of the agr'E:~EHnc~nt signed with the federal government yesterday in tAJhich we have given up our highway without any guarantee of financial return in perpetuity, that the Premier should not, in thE:~ same fashion, for political purposes, run to sl:rike a dei..J.l to~.Jith t:hH consortium to develop Hibernia and to fore:~go (,~ i.-1. r n j, n g s a n d r e v e n u e Ud. s Pro v i n c e has .a right and an obl"igation to 0 n s u r e i: h R l~ I~H :~ c o ll e c t o v E! r· t h e years. tJ.Jhenever the dE:~veloprnent No. 60 (Afl: :f~ rnoon) R3328

occurs. We would not want to see, especially in light of the difficulties that are going to be cr·eated on the fiscal capacity of this ProvinCE!, br:~causii:~ of the moneys we have given up on the raillAJay deal, we do not see this goVE!r'J'lm(Hlt do thE! same thtng, run to strike a major development deal on H:ibc;·rn'ia fur polili .c;:~l pur·posHs and to throtJJ to thE:' L~Jind thE! r··i .ghts IJJe have t~Jon, in pa1n1:. throu~~h sor11e of the good E!fforts of l.: hi s P r· c~ m i e r· o r t h :i s q o tJ (:! r· n m c~ n l-. over the years, to secure our r·r:~ve:~nur;!s tJJhenco~Vr.'!r the deveJ.op1nent occurs.

If that happens in the next little tJJhilE!, the Pr'E!rnier· can I:H~ assured his political future will indeed, with these two deals, be put in great jeopardy. Thank you, Mr. Speaker . Oral Questions MR. WELLS: Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER : The hon. UH:' I . C'! i:H~ f~ r of thE! Opposition . MR. Wf:LLS : In l~hF.! c:lr'r'RI19(~rn~~nt:. annot.tnced yester·day, t hE:~r<o1 IJ.Jas an announcement of an assistance package for ernployE:1es. That, of course, is good, t:o tRkC:~ care or the employees who will be di.spl.aced as c'l resul.l: . of th8 closure of the railway.

There was also an assistance package announced for two particular municipaLi.t 'i.E:1S, Bishop 1 s Fc.'l11.s Rnd Por·t aux BasqUE!S. Mr. Speaker, what about the other L3329 June 21, 1988 Vol XL municipa]jties that will be significantly adversely affected by this, Whi tbourne, Clarenvj 11 e, Gander, Grand Falls, and Badger? A town like Badger. PREMIER PECKFORD : Get your facts straight . MR. WELlS: You rnay laugh at it, but thE~ little town of Badger wi ll lose f o u r· t e e n j o b s , ~~ h i c h i s o n 10:~ ·-· t h j r d of t;.Jhd1 ~ B·i.shop 1 s Ff:'l] Js IAr.i.ll J.oso .

Mr'. · SpC'!i'tkr'·r·, my qu(•st:..ion 1-.:o l:~he Premir,~r is: If thE! govennnent is i'll" r· an 9 i. n 9 $ '7 rn:i. J J. Jon For· B is hop 1 s FalJ.s, tJJhich will lose for·ty-·five jobs, I.AJhy d-Ld thE'IJ no i: ar·r·r:~nc;J~ :! $2 million for Badger, Luhich wi1 .1 lose fifteen jobs? MR. SPEAKER: The han . the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. SpE!aker, therE· a1nE~ va1n:ious ways the governments could have gone about this business. Obviously the Leader of the Opposition does not agrE'E! with thE! way we went about it.

In assessing the economic impact, not only the number of jobs lost but . the economic impact, IJJith the faciliti.es that are Nvailable in Port aux Basques and the fNcil.i.ties that are available in Bishop 1 s FaJ.ls, the ~JOrk t~hat l:ht~Y did reJ.Rtiue to the railway, we thought it important l:o rli:~aLly put o u r· m o n (~ y I;.J h ('~ i" e i:: h c,~ q r C:' <.~ t: E! s 'L: impact was going to be, and that is in those two communities. Even now the town of Port aux BasquE!S, as 1 understr::\nd it, arE! not happy with the $7 million allocation tht:~t l:hE:~Y hav(~.

But t;.Je . thought that it was important to highlight thosE! ttJJo cornmun:i.ties, in particular, becauSE!, as WC:' assess it, the impact there,~ IAJiJ.l bt~ much, No. 60 (Afternoon) R3329

much gre~ter than it is in any other part of the Province. If you start splitting ·it rlown, I suppose, you get all the way down to one job for $50,000, j.f there is onr:' community somewhr:~rE! in 1\JeiAJfounclli.Hld that. J.os<::!S ono job. Not only that., of course, but you hdVE! ptc'Opl.r:~ who wor·k IAri+:h thF:~ railway who live in other communities that do not necessarily have a railway pr·esr:~nce. Do you also pr·ov:i.dr:~ some money to that community, because that. person no longE!r' has a job? You SE!e, it is a difficuJ.t pr·oposition.

We did what we t.h:ink is the wisest and most prudent way to spend thr:~ money to hE!lp those communities which are going to have absor·b largest :impact . We do not apologize for that. We think IJJe did a r~~asonablo job, Mr. Speaker. MR. WELLS : A supplementary, Mr . Speaker . M f~ . 3 P F. A K r~ R : A supplc->.rneni:iH'Y, ·the hon. l:he Leader of the Opposition . MR. WFLLS : Mr.

Speaker, there is also a significant group of employees who worked for many years with the railroad, albeit it seasonally, who have in fact not had any work this summer because CN or TerraTransport has been implementing this agreement now for the past two months. There are some 155 seasonal workers. Why was there not made for those workers who will affected by this as MR . SPEAKfR: some 155 be well? The han. the Premier . L.3330 June 21, 1988 provision seasonal adversely Vol XL. PREMIER PECKFORD : There is provision for seasonal workers to be compensated under this plan. MR. WELLS: Mr. :3pe~ke:~r . MR.

SPEAKER : A tinal supplementary, the hon . the Leader of the Opposition. MR. WELLS : Would the Premier tell. th e House what that provision is? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Pr'E!ITiiE!r . PREMtER PECKFORD: I c a n no t t e 11 ex a c t ly IJJ hat :.i ·t i s because it will be negotiated with the unions, and we have commtJnicat~~d t.hts to thee~ un:i.ons. The two key areas that IAIE~ ZE:H'oed .in on in the f·i.nal. IAIE"C:'ks of thE! negotiations were both employees' compensation clnd towns' compensation areas.

The $70 million-plus that 1Aiil.1 be:~ spc~ni:. on thf:' IAior·kc;!r's' compensation, part of the plan includes allocations through negotiation with the union for all of Uw sr~asoni.'\1 I~Jor'bcH'~;, Mr. Speaker'. MR. SIMMONS : Mr' . SpE!aker. MR . SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Fortune - Her·rni . tage. MR. SIMMONS : Mr. Spr:~aker, just to pursue this line of questioning to the Premier, the impact on Port aux Basques will be, I submit, more devastati .ng i:han on any ol:her community, including Bisho~'s FalJ.s. k\lhfH'E~ i.n Por·t. aux Basquc->.s No. 60 (Af ·ter·noon) R3330

the job loss Js in the ordE!r of 200 from TerraTransport and Marine Atlantic, in Bishop's FalJ.s it is of the order of 45. Plus the fact, I submit to the~ Premier, thE:~ port of Port aux Basques is being downgraded through the expenditures on Argentia, and the transportation industry will not have thE! samE! clout in Port aux Basques that it had before the agreement was signed. I ask the PrE•miE~r, theo'n, assuming 1-.haL thee' drT10t.1nt For· B i.shop Falls of $7 miJ.J.:ion is adt~quate, does ht~ f r~ e l ·L h "' 1:·.

U1 (:! s '" rn (~ a rn o 11 rl'l·. 1~1 r.~ !; fa :i. ,~ for Port aux Basques, or is he ''' b o u I~ t: o r' n IJ 'i o 1~1 t h R i:. o r p r· P p '-" r r:! d to take it under review? MR. SPFAI<FR: The hon. the PrE~rrr"i.er. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, the hon. member confuses th<~~ matt.E!r somc.;!what. Let me say that the Opposttion, by the tAJay, in a r·esolut.i.on some rnonths or somE! wer::~ks ago, did not eVE!n have anything in the:dr r<.;!solution for the towns or the workers - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER PECKFORD: -and noJJJ thE!Y are standing up as grE!at guardians of the• workers and the towns in the Province. And their resolution, which no doubt they laboured over For weeks beforehand, did not E:~ven include anyt.hJ.ng to do '"Ji Lh tJJor·kc~'I''S or· l:hc:! totJJn s . 1\JotJJ this ctgre<o~rnE:~nt: UlRl': IAH~ si.gned yestE:~rday covE:~rs the railway. We a r' e n OIAJ as s e s s i. n g whet h ~::~ r in F R c l~ it IJJill hCJtve any impact on Marine Atlant.j.c.

As I und<~~rst.ood it. fr·om yesterday, I do no·t know whE!rC:~ the 200 figur·e comes fr·om, it I~Jas my L3331 June 21, 1988 Vol XL understanding IAH.;! ar'E! t:alk.ing about forty or fifty, maybe evr::~n fifty-four tn Por·t aux BasqUE!S as it relates to the railway. And there is somE! suggE:~s tion noro~J that. there may bE! thirty to thir·ty--fiVE! as it r·elatE!S to Mad.nE?. Atlantic. We will be assessing that addi.tional impact., IAJhen and if in fact it does occur. WE~ know when the fi.·fty .. -four is g<L.i.nq to occur·. It is going to occur over the next three months.

Wo hdue that identified, and it was For that ,~ e d s o n 1~1 E! r' e s p o n d c:! cl L h r o u g h t h "' agreement for $7 million. We al"(' not~J •'lSsc,'ss·-i.ng IAJhE~I:her' -i.n f'acl: thE!r'<~ will be add:i.tionaJ. nE!gat:iu(• :irnp<:'c l:.s 11pon Por·t: dUX Basqt.I<"!S relative to MarinE! AtJ.ClnUc, and i:tft(:•r 1·.hc'll:_ dSSf~SSirlPrlt: is iJOJ'1C'! t;Je will decidE! IAihE:~the•r, in Fact, ctddit'i.onaJ. e:~fFort.s should bE'! 111adc~ in the Port aux Basques area. MR. SIMMONS: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAI<ER: A supplE:~ITIE!ntary, thE! hon. the member for Fortune -Hermitage. MR.

SIMMONS: The Pre~mie:~r i.s right in thai:_ thE! figure for Marine Atlantic in Port aux Basques t.E:H1cls to be differE!nt depending on lAJho you taJ.k to. I ~Ho~l-i.c~VE! Lhe mctyor usc,~d thr~ figur·e of up to 200, including thE• fiFty-four in Terra Trctnsport. Anothe:~r individual indicated· to rrw that Mdrine AtJ.dntic figures would be comparable, so about fifty. But IAJhcth~V(~r· t:hr,~ fj.guJ"(,~, 1 am, first of all, pleased to hear that. that is being taken under reuJew.

I put the Premier back to response,~ i-.o Lhr::~ Lec.~ciE!r' of Opposition lAJhere he:~ said thE! l o s s :i. s no l:: cl .ire c t.l y r' co' 1 ''' t: e d the economic impact, and -that the brunt of rny fir·st quest'ion. his the job l:.o was No. 60 (Afternoon) R3331

MR . SPEAKFR: Order, please! The hon. member is making a speech . MR . SIMMONS: I a s k t h c->. P r· E! rrd e r : G :i v e n 1: h e economic devastation this will tJJrE:'ak in Port c.ux Basques, is he:~ pr·e:~FHH'Co!d to h<:·\vc,~ Uw amo11nt oF $7 mjJlion reviewed with a view to pushing it upward somewhat? MR. SPEAKER : Th E! han . the PremiE!r . PREMIER PECKFORD: The other problem you have to remember in this is when you look at $7 million, you knotJJ, $7 million can go a long way if it is used wisely.

I know that there are towns or individuals around that - if somebody gave me ten dollars and gave somebody else ten dollars, perhaps the oUH,~r per·son could realize out of that ten dollars fiFty and I mi .ght be only able to realize twenty, because Uwy arc-:~ morE! dggr·essive .::~ nd mor·e innovative than I am. So let us not lose:~ sight of l:he far.t tlv1i: there is a $7 million till there i n Po r t d u x 11 a s q u e s n 01~1 for economic diversification and for j o b c r t:! R ti. on .

The quE~sU .on, as I said last night, :is: iiOIAI many jobs can $7 million realistically create in the Port aux B~sques area over the next couple of years? It could be very, very substantial. I have already answered the hon. member. We arE:' J.ooking to SE!e now exactly what the impact is as it relates to Marine Atlantic, and once that is done then we IAd.J.l fact, assess whether, in additional measures need to be taken or not. L.3332 June 21, 1988 Vol XL MR . SIMMONS: A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker . fJ! R .

S P F:: A K F ~~ : A final supplementary, the han . the rne:>mber for Fo;"tl.lrH:' ·- Hc.;!r'mitag~~. fiR. SIMMONS: With respc-:'C'I: to the PrerntE!r 1 s undertAking tn rel~tion to the MarinE! Atlantic pE•ople, what will bE! LhE! mechan-i .sm no1~1? W:i 1.1 i:HlY additional costs here be Funded urH .IE•r t:hE• t"c;d.ltAJi'\Y d91"E!~~rnc:!nt., Ol" will the pool of money have to be S pl:i. t in ITICH'E• IAii.'lY S 1'10W if I;JI?. introduCE! the extra fifty pE•oplE!? How wtll thE! fu ndt ng be found in the event that it is determined that these people ought: to be compensated, too? MR.

SPEAKER: The han . the Premier . PREMIER PECKFORD : We will considE!r that and i 1'1 I.•Jhi . C h

l) Ed1"i. C l. f:! IJJP IAI:i.J. l. if, in fact, we do it . JI.1R. LONG : Mr. Sp~:!al<er . MR. ~3PEAKFR : d~:·ci .dE! do t:hal: The hon. the member for St. John 1 s Fas L. MR. LONG : Thank you, Mr·. SpE:~dkE!r. In view of the agreement made yesterday, I IJJould like to ask the Pr·emier ''~quest-ion tn r·pcognil: .:ion of the many questions facing th E! communities affected and the individual workers, and in particular the concerns w~th the workers . located in St. John 1 s. I would likE! to ask the:~ Prr:Hnier, now that the company has been given three months to negotiate a spec i a 1 assistance package tJJi. t:. h thes~~ workers, .if that mc-:HHls that No. 60 (Afternoon) R3332

the Province has given up any responsibility for the eventual resolution of the position that these workers find themselves in? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the PrC:~mter. PREMIER PECKFORD: Obviously, the han. rne:Hnber has not clone his homewor·k at all, as most han. members opposite have not. 1 am sor·ry to hc:wc~! to take~! thC:' t_j,Jn(:~ of th\':1 House on this. Your Honour, I a1n c:~t your· di.sposc'l dS to IJJhat you want me to do.

In my s ti:lternc"!nt yest\':1r'di'ly, I).Jhich T l~.l·d.nk everybody on both sides of the HousC:1 had a copy of, 1 go J.nto gr·E~at dc~1tail i'lbout the whole q u C"! s I-. :i. o n o f c o rn p (~ n s i:'l 1.: -i_ o n d s i. t J"E'!latC:1S to thC:1 WOl"kEH'S. I am just lookJ.ng For the page it is on here. I can read it to the han. gNltl.ernan or T ce1n just r·E~rE:1r h:i.m to it. MR. LONG: The queslion is he does he not have any further involvement. PREMIER PECKFORD: 11The Province1s prime concern has, from thE! outset, been the welfare of communities and ernployeE!S most affected by the railway closurE! ...

In our vtew l:he agreement provides sufficient funding for· a fai.r, reasonable and equitable settlement for all existing railway employees. The details of this settlement are to be;! negot:ia t:ud lAJi. th t.: he C~!fllp loy ee s in the coming weeks. I want to clssure rail.IJJRY c~~mpJ.oyc~H:~s t-.oday that the Province will be taking a k•~en :intE:!rE~st -i_n Uws(:1 negotiations to ensure that the IAJOrl< C:~rs 1 in lC:1rC:1S 1-.:s ;~rc.:l i'ln J.ntegrto~.l part of the overall initiative. T , my s e 1 f , i'lrl d M r· .

C r· o s b j_ e h i:'llH! paid par·-l:'i cular aH:ent:ion ·to this po-L n-t, a ncl IJJE~ hi:\ v E~ rnE~ t IAt"i i:. h Mr· . L3333 June 21, 1988 Vol XL f~on La1JJl.ess. We have~~ b\':1en assur~:'d by M r . Law l e s s , as I a rn sure he IJ..rl.J.l clSSI.Jre you IJJhen he speaks, that not only will CN rnE:~et a11 of the requirE:HnE!nts of the collective agreement , . .

We will be keeping a cloSE! watch upon the n(-?.gotiat.ions of these specjal benefits to ensure thi'lt t:he int.E:~rE!St of the Newfoundland unions and and the welfare of the Newfoundland workers is protected. 11 Pur·suant to this of Newfoundland believE•s that if li"Ue full 1\JeiAJf ou ndl_ and bem~fit of thE!

GOVE'l~nmen t~ and Labrador this :.ls to bE• a package"• For' l::he the Newfoundland IAJO r k c~~ r s 1:: hE:~ n l o cell 1.1 n j_ on l r:~ a cl E'' r' s rnust play a key role. 11 We actually pushed OUI"SE•lvE!S into t h e S j_ l~ I I r:l t i. 0 r1 b E'! f 0 Y' 1'1 t h i S agreemC:~nt IAJas signed and said to CI\J IJJE:~ IAJi"'nt. a gurH'i:\1"1 teE:' L:hat local union leaders will be involVE:!d in the negot-Lations of this package and not just the natjonal union 1 E:1 cl d EH' s , F o r· IAJiri. c h lA I e g o t. a guaranteE!, so our local urdon people wiJ.l be involved.

It shouJ.d bE:1 centered in NE!Wfoundland i'.lnd negotiations should be taktng place here, which is going to be agreed to. 11 BC:~cause of thC:1 'impor·tance of thE• this aspect of the compensation package, the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador has r·equestE:~d 11 .... We havC:~ as I<E:!d and CN has agreed.

We have gom~ through both t.hc~1 dE?.par·tments r·r::1sponsible for CN, as IJJel] as CN thE!rTISE:1lVE:1S -· t.hat we be kept apprised of the progress of these negotiations.11 So we are going to keep a watching brJ.ef on these nGgoliations to ensure that the package that ts negot -Latc~1d i.s d rt'!dSonablc.;! and fair onE! to alJ. of the IAJorkeJ"S in 1-: he P r' o tJ "i. n c r:1 , "L n c l. u d t n g t: hE~ on r:' s No. 60 (Afternoon) R3333

that the Leader of the Opposition mentioned earlier, the seasonal 1.uorkers. MR. LONG : A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: (I suppl.f~mc,~ntar·y, i:he hon . Lhc~ merube1n for St. John's East. MR. I.ONC: T c~pprE!Ctdl-_e Lhe tirno t--.hr:' Prolfl"i.(:!r' has takPn to advise,~ r:~verybody of t.hl~ commi.t-.mc::~nt thf:' Proui.nce h<:lS given to maintaining somE:' kind of monitod.ng r·olE~ in · thE~se-?. negotiations. But it is exactly- MR. SPEAKER : Order, please! MR. LONG: Mr . Speaker, my supplementary question concerns precisely the role that the Province has committed itself to.

In particular, will the PremiE!r givP a n u n d e r· ·1: a k :l n g t h c:~ t. t h e g o v e r· n rn e n t will be making representation to the company to address specifically thr:~ critical point of negotiali .ons, 1.uhi.ch i.s goi .ng l:o be whether employees ar·E:~ ob1 igecl for 1~.hr:~i.r E~nd l:o c,~xE~rc:'i.se l:hr:~ opi:'i.on of ruoving outsidE:! of the Pr·ovince :L n o r d (~ r ~~-o r r· o h,~ c t t h o .i. r· r· ·tg h 1 .. s under thr:1 collectiVE! agi"E:H~ment? MR. SPEAKER: Th<:~ hon . the PI"E~m·ier· . PREMIER PECKFORO: Mr. Speaker, the han. member is r·<-?.ally out of touch.

I hatE! to say that, but: he is. The union leaders understand where CN is coming from and what the package is all about. It is going to be a very, very lucrative, generous package to the employees . And g lot of the material that the hon. member is now asking questions L3334 June 21, 1988 Vol XL about is going to be dealt with at the tab1e, and was yestE!rday. We met IAri.i':h the-?. IHlion lr:~adE!rs, IAJ'.:i. t:h Mr. Lawless and Mr. Crosbie and so on.

Th<-:~y 11ndersti'\nd the parameters in which they are dt~i"'l.ing, dl'lci 1 1-.h.ink IAJe IAJ:i.l.l fE!C-'!1 pretty happy as the negotiations c o n ·d . n 11 (~ . T l·w r· (~ IAJ i. l. J. l:w v a r :l. o u s things there, IAJhether they movE~ Ol" not, or· cc1n si:·Ll.l. stay, and conl:inue t.o have thei1n rights in ~.JE:!IA.Irouncll.r:-lnd Ol" con l·:"i. nue t.o qe l: E:~ar·ly rE:'tir 'e iTIE!nt bent=:~fits as IAJE!J.l as pension benc->.fits, dnd the like . But that is dE•tail, that will now be worked out at Lhe table and we will be kept informed as to hoi.IJ that moves along.

So I would rather not get into every piece-:! of l:hE:~ puzzle l:.hat has t·.o be put together by both sides. But I assure the han . member that we will be keeping a close eye on the situation. And t.hr:~ union lead~~rs are no fools in their own rights, they kno1.u 1.1Jhat they are abOlJt, and I am sure that they will ensure thctt a good package is negotiated . MR. LONG: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: (I finc:ll S11pp1E~ITH:~ntary . MR. LONG: Mr. SpeakEH', I IAJOUld l ·.ikf~ to ask i: h c~ P t' ern i.

E! r· , a s a f i n d l. supplementary on the same gE!neral ·i.SSIHo1, -i.f i.n view of t:hE:1 experience at the Moncton shops in thP l.ds 1.: number· of Yl':'i.H'S and l:he difficulty the employees and the colllpi:'lny t.hEH'e have had in dealing with and applying the co1lective agreement to those conditions, will the Premier give a commitment that if at the end of three months there is no resolution between the worker·s and th:i.s company, because of the difficulties in lAJhich the employf:1es a r·(~ :l.nvit.ed t. () move No. 60 (Afternoon) R3334

out -of---Provi.nce to pr·oh:-:~c 1·.: th~dr· rights, that the government of l~. h -L s P r' o v i n c r:~ I Ali 11 pl. <:·1 y a r o 1 t~ i. n c-?.nsuring that there is, indeE!d, a special assistance plan, put in place for the workers of this Province to allow them to stcty here in this Province? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Hypothetical, Mr. Speaker. MR. FURF.Y: Mr. Spc,~akc:H'. MR. SPEAKFR: The hon. the member for St. Batnbe. MR. FUREY: Mr. Spei'lk(~r, to t:he Prc,~rn-i.or'.

In his statement. t.o the media y~~s l~er·day on UH,~ r·,~i.J.IAli.'lY, 1-".ht:~ Premier stated, 1We have sought c'lnd obh•..-i.rH~d assttrcHlcc,~s of a continUE!cl cornnd t.rnent by thE:~ ff~dc~!Y'c:ll r,;Jovernrneni:: fflf~c~l::ing Ot.lr' futulnE! tr·anspor·tation needs. 1 Co 111 d Uw P r· lWri e r t. e 11 I:.I·H~ H o u s ~~ t.llhat specific assurances they have r·ece-i.ved in this regard? Has the Province gotten these specific assurancf:~s in t.llrit:Lng, and is the Government of Canada legally bound by thesE:~ assurance no1.1.1, and c->.:ight years from now? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

PREMIER PECKFORD: There are ongoing memorandums of understanding between the Government of Canada and the Gov~~rnmenl: of N~~IJJfotlndland for ongoing regional economic doveloprnent i.ni.t"i.c1ti.vHs, :i.nc11Jcli.ng h·ansportation, Mr. Speaker, as t-:her·e h<.·1V{:~ bec~n :in l·.he pds_t.. So thfH'e t.llil.l bE! ongoing EIWA c:'lgrc:H:~HH:~n'i·:s, d~; l Sdi.d l.cUii:: ni.ghi-., L33 3 5 June 21, 1988 Vol XL o n r o ct d s , o n a g r' i. c 1.1 1 1.: u r c->. , o n r u r a l development, on forestry, and on tni.ni.ng. r~oads i.s VE~ry much a pf."irt of that.

As a matter of fact, of all our regional economic development agreements, the one that has more money in it than any other is the• roads agrE!eiTIE!nt. It: tJJas befor·e t.his rai1tAJay agr·eemt>nt was signed.

There was $186 miJ.lion, or· IAJhate:~VE!Y' it IAJas. ~:;o there are agreemE!nts in place, ot" mc'!tnOr<:'ldutns or· undE!Y'stand:i.ng, bE:~tween the two goVE!rnrnE!nts signE•d by Or'dE~r in Council. by both governments ensuring ongoing ERDA agr·ec"~rtlf'!nl-.s for r·oad r'E~I·1aboi.l.:i.tation and paving and so on, on into thE~ nexl:. cr;!n'l::t.II"Y, c:1~; 1-.:her·c,~ dr'e ·For· other regional economic dc=!tJel.oprnent "i.n·i.t·.·i.dt·i.v(~S -in 1nining, forestry, rural development, and a g r' -i. c ul. 1-. 1 1 r' a 1. s e c I: o r s o F t h c,~ economy. MR. FURfY: A Sllppl.e:~rnE:Hlh:try, Mr·. SpE~di<E'!r.

Mi~. SPEAKER: A supplernE!ntary, thE! hon. the ITH:~flltH:!r for' Si~. Bar·be. MR. FUREY: Mr. SpeakE!r, to the PrE!fnier again. Could the Premier tel.J. us, with respect to the reopener clause eight years from now, if there happens to be two divergent opinions lJJ:i.t.:h t'C->.SpE!CI:: to ti·Li.S clause, if Canada takE•s pos:iUon A and Newfoundlc'lnd takes pos"i.tion Z, what security is there within thjs reopener clause that Newfoundl.and is not gojng to take a royal scre1"ri.ng l.i.kc->. they almost did under Term 29? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the PrE~mi~~r. PRFMIER PECKFORD: Very hypothetical, Mln.

Comi.ng fr·orn a l..i.beral. IAJho No. 60 (Afternoon) SpeakE:'In. did not R3335

have reopener clauses, I am amazed. MR. FUREY: Mr. Speaker, a final supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary, the han . the mmnbc;!r for· Sl::. Badlc'!. MR. FUREY: Mr. ~:JpE:~cd<(:H', is thE:1 Pr'(:1nd.er ·t. e l.l. i. n g l. he P r· o tJ j n c E:~ 1·. h d t: 1111 rJ, ,~ r· ·Hd S r'(!Of.!NJ(:! I" C lc.lU s e that hE! n e g o t ·i. i'l t f~ rl 1:. h t::• l" <o~ -i_ s n o s <:1 c u I" -i. t y for this Province?

Eight years fro111 no1~J i.f C.~'lnddd Sr'l'jS, 'Your· roads arf:' on pal" tJJith thE:~ Mar i t i JOt->. s , ' -1:. h c:1 1: -t. s i. t , i. 1: -is ,:'l '1.1 over, there is absolutely no security for the Province? Ml~. SPEAKEI~ : The han . the Premier . PREMIER PECI<FORD: Is that a question, Mr . Speaker? I do not k now . The 1 a s t ph r as e IAJas. 'There is absolutel.y no security for thE! Province.' I under·stand that Js a dt~cJ.arative sentence and not a question. One would think, Mr.

Speaker, that in the nonnd1 co1trs~1 of events it will be Co'asy to dete1nmine, through factual. examination of the state of the rodds in NE:~tArfoundland, the Tr·dns -Cani'lrl<"' e1nd Lh1:1 r·c,,g-Lond1 r·oads and aJJ the r·est of it., that l:.h<'!r'e tAJi.l.l. not be C:'l disdgr·c,~ernc:!nl: over fact as to whether th(:~re are h.o~Jo uri.l.es of fo1~r trti .l.E:~s or· t<:Hl miles. That should bE:' pl"e ·l:.ty easy t.o deter·mine.

To construcl-. an ar·gurnf :!n 't l.JkC:~ thE:~ hon . member did, as a premise to hi.s quE:~s t i.on, that suddenly tber·e would be somebody in Ottawa who would be saying, 1 There are four miles paved,' and there would be somebody in Newfoundland says, 'There are two miles paved, 1 L3336 June 21, 1988 VoJ. XL insults the intelJ.igence of any homo sapiens. MR. GULLAGE: Mr . Spt~aker . MR . SPEAKER: Thf~ han. 1-.hc,~ ITif~rnbor· for· Wat.:f~rfoi"d -· Kenmount. MR. GULLAGE: A q tH ~ s t i. o n ~~ o U·H,~ P r· r~ rn :i. CH ' , M r· . SpeakE!l".

The pr·ess r'E•lE!CISE:!S st.:<:d:E! l·.hrtt: l"diltJ..I·:~y lctncl !; ·l:hr 'o ughou l: Lht:! Province will be event ually i·:r'd l'l!> fO I"rHc:i fi"Oirt t:hE'! ft'!cll :'r·al governrueni: to th t:~ Pr ovin ce , but: i: h c;• r· r,~ i. s n o rn E~ n -1:. i. o n o f IAJ h ('! n t h -L s is going to take place and no br·( -~akdol~Jn of l:.he $5 rn-L1l:ion, lAJh -Lc h we assume might be legal and other cos l:s of do .. i.ng l:h( :! l:r·ansfc; !r'. But could the Premier expJ.ain when in fact these lands will be transferred and what comprised the $5 million? MR. SPEAKER : The hon . the Pr·emiE!r' .

PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr·. Speaker, all. thc->. qUE!St.ions that have been asked are in the docwnE!nts . T do not understand hon. members opposite . Read the docuwc~nt. PJ.c ,~asE:~ redd! Read Lhe document. The document is here For· r· to'"' d i n g . T h d t oi. s c o v e r· f'! d :i. n here . There w:l .J.l be a comrrdttee C'!S-i".abl·i.shc,~d ·i.rmllt~ch,,,i".<'!liJ -- loi'H:! CN, the f E:~d e ral gov E:~ r·nrne nt and ortt 'S:.:'lV<:~s 111h-i .c h wi .l.l. thc~n negotjate the dispersal of the ass t'! t :; . T hal: : 'i. s IAJh y t h C:' r· c~' is no time in there.

There are a lot of physi.cctl assets, in addition to just a track and a right-of-way, in Sl:.. John's C:-Hld Bi.shop' s FalJ.s, those two main CE!ntrE!S in particuldr, so you cannot give a time for it where 1.11e ar·e gcd ng to sit dotJJn tAJi th a comrni t. tee represenU.ng the three parU es and 1\Jo. 60 (Afternoon) R3336

work out a timetable for doing Llyis. ~~hat. dor::~s CI\J rH~erl to continuE:! its ongoing opet~ations hc~r·e, IA.Ihi'l. t i. t i. s l.:hE:~Y do no 1: nc"1f~d, especially as it relates, for example, to St. John 1 s and Bishop 1 s Falls. It will be easy to do thE! roddbl;!d, br::~causc,~ CN IAJill not need that any more. So there is going to be d

schedule established by this committee and as that

schedule is established we will be announcing it and the time frames in which the various assets t..lli 11 be t a k E! n o v E! r . B u t that i s dll covf~rc;!d he:1rf~ in the booklet, Mr. Speaker·. MR. GULLAGE: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the member for w~terford - K C:! 11Til0 IHll-.. MR. GULI.AGE: Mr. Speaker, the Premier appears t 0 b e s o:-l y ·i. n g i: h d ~~-~~ h l'! r· f:~ ·i. s n 0 l·. h "i n g concr·etE~ t"jghi-now.

We have totAJns r'l n rl c i. t·. i e s l~ h r o 11 g h o u 1~. 1·. h (~ P l" o tJ i. n c f:' affected adversely with employment being l.:dken away, ldnds and properties being taken away, and no dc.;!tcril.s. MR. SPEAKER: Ordet~, please! MR. GULLAGE: W'i.J.l the Prc"'mir::1r give somc"1 deta-Ll as to exactly what is happening? And IAlhat lands and properties are involved and where they are located in the Province? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

PRFMIER PECKFORD: All of the railwdy lands in the Pr·ovince, all the:1 th'i.ngs that. the CI\J 01Ali1S ·i.n l·.l·lf~ ProtJoi.ncf~ oH'C::1 go'"i.ng to be examined and the need 1 .. 3337 Jttne :n, 1.91l8 Vol XI.. identified by CN of what they want t o k c,1 c,1 p , e1 n d HHHl t h e r· e s t t~o.d 1. 1 b 1'::1 transferred. And fJ~oru tirnE! to i::i.um, c:1dCh rnonl·.h or· l~.wo, 1~1e ~~o.d.ll be in consultation with sorne of the muntcip~li~ies that will be affect.E!d. We wiLl. be sitting dot.~m t~o.Ji.l.:h thE!rn, wh~~re i.l: is ·in a murd.cipal boundary.

WhE•r'E! it is not, <:lnd .it is just on Cr·otAJn J.dnd or whatever as a right-of--way, tJ.H:' wi.J.l be announcing the orderly transfE!r of thE!SB asSE!tS. But none of the assets will be transferred unless parties who h d v C.;! s orn~1 ·i. n l~. c-?. r· e s l.: in l:. h o s c;! ass<>. t s arE! consulted before any final d <->.cis tons i'H'<"1 tndd .::~. So '"'e tAla n l~. to do th~i.s on an orderly basis, t:l'li"Ol.lgh a cn1nrni.l:.l::en l:hat lAiill. now be established as is called for in t:h(=! M~1rnorr:lndun1 oF Undr>.r'S l~.and-:.i.ng relevant to the agreement. MR. GULLAGE: Mr. Spee1ker. MR.

SPF.AKER: A final supplementary, the hon. 1. h (-:~ Tf1 (o1 rrJ bE! r· j-0 T' ~~ i'l 1·: (! r• f 0 r· cl l<enmount. MR. GULLAGf.: Mr. Spe;:~!«H', can the Pr·em:ier· explain whether or not this counni l:t<"'~~ that i.s going to be struck will include representation fr·o111 the rnany tot~o.ms a.nd t:l·w couple of cities involVE!d?

Given thE! fact that these lands, t.he lands in particular outside of the roi::ldbeds "i.n que:~stion, J.ands t.1.dth:in their boundaries and near their boundary, thdt can be developed for either business or industria]. use, can the Pr~?.m:ier explain whether or not these cities will, i.n F<'lct, hdv~~ some of thl'::~se lands and buildings transferr'E:~d to them T'Cll·:i'wr· rhan just tr'<HlSf~H·r·~~d to the Province? MR. SPEAKER: 1\Jo. 60 ( Aftf:!Y'I'lOOn) R333'7

The han. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, I have already answer·ed that in my previous answer, ·l~.hat t:hE:1 municipalities involved 1.uill be consul.b~d on t.hc:1 matter. Obviously, if there is a business interest there, we clre eclger to pursue it . If there is a tour··i srn in I~C"!r·es t·. tht-:!r'(~. ~~~c~ dr't~ eclger to pursue it. lil"~:t of aJ.J W(~ haVE! got to ge ·l~ s OlllU l.pg;'ll 1.: lri. ng s do nr~, and r:-1 n jdE:1nt:if:i.cation of tA.Jhat it is that lid::! dr'(:' go :oi.ng 1-:o l·.r·c:HlS r~("!r I I:H>.CCIIIS!::! thc~I"E:! a1"e cet"tcdn assc:'·l:s that CN tArill. !;i·.i.ll IAkHll:

h) hold on l·.o be c au s e t h 101 y iH' E:' g o i n ~~ to l: r y a n d increase their freight market share in the Province through their trucking anrl water modal. systems. But we intend to, as we sc:dd yesterday, as I sai.d in answer to the previous question, as I t.uill say again now, that t:hat process will be under way, municipalities will be fully involved, business who wan ·t to take over some of this property and develop a business, in whatever type of business 'it may be, that is what we welcome and that ls what we want to see happen.

Our first initiative must be to establ.'i.sh a cornrni.ti-:.E!C~ l·:o gc~L t-.hl:1 ball rolling and then everybody IAJi.l.J. be cons11ll-.r:1d <'lnd i.nvol.vc:1d to ensure thi'.:tt thE:! asSE!tS and roads clnd everything else thctt happens w:iJJ I:H;1 for· th~:! b101nE:1fit of alJ. thE:~ P r· o tJ i. n c e r'1 n d lh~~ Hluni.cipaJ.ii -.·Lr::'S invoJ.ved. MR. F:FfORD: Mr. Spec:lkc ,1r'. MR. SPEAKF.R: The han . the member for Port de Grave. L3338 June 21, 1988 Vol XL MR. EFFORD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. SpE:1aker. rny question is aJ so to the Prern-i.er·.

Given l:he fact that thE! railway is notJJ gonE!. thE! question on Lop of all. people's minds is what about the future of h i.ghiJJays in Nc'!tJJfoundl< .Hld? T. IJJOiil.d d S k l".hE:1 Pr·~~rn:i .c,,r·, vr;!r'y clearly and ver y sensibly, given l·.he: ' F•:lc'l·. 1·.h;.11~. he hc::td b< '!e n portr·ay:i.ng him se lf as Th (! Fighting NeiJJfoltndJ.arH:k!r', I)Jhy IJIOitl.cl he ~>"i .gn an agi"E:'E!ment t.uith l:h~:· fedE!I"al g u tJ <'! r· nrn t-:! n 'i': IAJi. 1· h n o p I" o u i s 'i o n i n the contract for· the cont:inu'.i.ng rna ·i.ni ... t~ni'lnce of +.h101 highw<::ty sys l':.<"!ln 'in Net.ufoundland? MR.

SPEAKER : The hon. the Premier·. PREMIER PECKFORD: I- am· delighte-d to answer that question. I arn absolut.r:~J.y dE!lighted to answer . I rnoan, when Mr'. SmalltAJOod lAJclS do·inq his dr·:ive in 1965 with all this 90 - 10 or 95-5, rnonE!Y t.hE:•n, t.uh·.ich :i.s notAl 50-50 and 60-30, and 60-40 and so on, t)Jher·e IJJi:lS the rni:dntE!nance agreement? Who looked after mai . n lc:d ni. ng i. L. MR. SIMMS : f'h<:1 M"i.n ·i.s i:c:!r' of l..dbour . PRFMIF.R PF.CKFORD : The Province looked after :it.:, Min. S p 1::1 a k 1::' r· . (1 n cl i·. h :) b r:~ t: +: <'! r· ·t-. h (~ r· o ad , th(:' less the maintenance.

Th:i.s is c'l t' (~ rl he r· r· i n g o F l·: h l'! f "i r' s 1: or d E• r , about a maintenance agreement. Whc~r·e IJJi:lS the flli'l inhHlfHlC~?. on the Argentia Highway when they gave up the brdnch l"i.ne to Argenti.a, to Placentia, Mr. Speaker. Where lAJclS the maintendnce agreement? SOME HON. MEMBERS: You gave it up! No. 60 (Afternoon) R3338

PREMIER PFCKFORO: 1\J o , L: h c"~ 1.. c"1 i'l dE! r' of U1 E! 0 p p o s :i. U . on gavt! it up. There it is ther·e in Uli. s l. f:~ t 1-. E~ r . T h ~~ 1_ e <.·u:l l'!f' o f I: h e Opposition gave it up. MR. DAWF : T~w TCH 1~1as btli.ll·: ·t-.o rq>1dCE:~ i".hf:~ passenger service. PREMIER PECKFORD: Yes. the Wh~H'e The TCH was built to replace passenger SE:'rvice u.Jas it.:? t~Jas th~~ rna-Lnteni':l.n cc'! ? Nowher~~! MR. SIMMS: The Minister of labour was responsibJ.e in those days for that, for maintenance. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr . Speaker, this is the reddest of red herring. MR. EFFORD : Answer Jt .

PRFMIER PFCKFORD : T. dHI .:·lrlSIJ.JE!r'"i.ng i.t. Thl'! better' i·.hr~ r·oad, Ht(:! less the maintenanc(~ . We t..1..1i.l.l. hav~:' lr~ss ntd i.rli -.enancH on the:~ Burgc'!o Road next YE:!ar, because tt~H"' 1 V l:~ lfl i. l. (~ s 0 f i. t i. s l".o b l"~ p i:W loH:I, than WE1 had this year. Is that c 1 ear +·.o UH,~ ho n . nHWJ~HH' for' Po r' i·: de Gr·aue? Does he understand that? We wilJ. haue less mainb:~nance on the road from Rorldickton to Fnglee next year because it is to be paved this year. MR.

DOY LE: The ra ·t.io is fotJr to orH::1 , PREMIER PECKFORD: t-our to one is the ratio, the Minister' of r r· i:\ n s· p o r t a t .i o n says. So it :is not a question of a ma'intenance tlri.ng. Thr:-1.l·. hds alu.Jay s bE-)81'1 thE1 r(-:!Sponsibility of pr·ovinc~~s, i.n 1:. hE:1 S (olflllc1 IAkly AS L.3339 June 21, 1988 VoJ XL provincial gouernmE!nts ouer the yeclrs haue negotiated ferry agreemE:~nts.

You arE~ late corning t:o l~ht~ i-.dbl (~ -i.f you <:·lr'c;! goi.ng to make t.he:1 argument on maini :enance, bt "~Cd11Sto1 yo11 shottl.d havE~ m<lldl:~ the argument years ago when you talked dboui·.: nJ.l. l·:hE~ fr,,rr ·y systems +·.hat we took ou er', because thE! f E'dE•ral go u c,>r· nlllf'! n 1: btri .l. t I·Jw tJJha r' u t:1 s to the Island and to the mainland and l: h t~ n l': h t~ P Y' 0 V :i. n C E! 0 p E! Y' 61 t C~ d l:: h e fE!rry systE!m, in the samE~ way as thE'Y haUl-'! bt.t.ilt ldnd-Lng st:r· ·ips .in Labrador, Liberal Governments and P .C .

Governments in Ottawa, and then the maintenance contract became the responsibility of the ProvincE:'. The prE!CedE!nt t~.Jas sEd; a J.ong titne ago i.n ol::her paJ"ts of Canada as well as in Newfoundland, when the passenger service was giuen up and thE• TCH was built in Uw b ~~ <:r'i. nrr'i. n g ,,.Ji _ t h n o m a "i. n tc->. n cll'l c e agreement. We are very p1eased, Mr. SpeakE!r, ·l·.o b~:~ .:~ b l . e l·.o g r:• 1... our' roads upgraded and paued so tfli:-1 "i.nt:c-}l'li.'tnct~ co~; 1·.!; t•d ll be~ than they ar·e now . That j s is goi.ng l':o hctppen .

Trans-Canada maintenance, Bur·gc-:!O Roclcl main'l".E!ndnc:r::1, t:hc->. Point Road maintenance, OUI" 1 ~=~ s s what The the Plum the Soncwi.s 1-.A il:i.ght•Jc:ly rrti·l'i.ntenance, ;;ll.l. of that maintenance cost t..1..1ilJ be~· l. Co~ s s be c au s e of 1~1 hat lAH?. d :i. d yesterday. MR. EFFORD: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the han. the member for Port de Graue. MR. EFFORD : Mr. Speaker, l. (~ t f(l(:' say to i: hE! han. the Premier, tlAJO u.wongs do no I~ rna k E:1 <'I r•"i.g h·l- .

In l:: h (:1 past agr'eE!ment there were tl..I..IO modes of l: r· A n s p o r' h:l t i. o n , i:Uld l-.od i'l y l·:hE!r'B .. i.s No. 60 (Afternoon) R3339

only one. MR . SPEAKER : Order, please! MR. EFFORD: I would ask thE?. PrE!mier : Given t h e fa c t t h a t t h e r· e i s g o :l n g t o be less maintenance but we arE• stiJ.l going to need money For maintenance, will the Premier tell t: h ,,, p e o p 1 e o f i·: h 'l s P r· o v .. i. n c e t~J h e r· (~ thE:! ntoney is going to come from For· ln;:.,i.n-1-.l~nr.,nce, t.J.Jh-Lch h~~ ·1-".el.l~; tiS is going to be less, but nr'!l.J(:~r·thc'!l .:~ss f:ht:!J"E:' ·i.s go "i.ng tube,' l'lti'.IJ .nt E:!rti:ll'tCe ln~:!qU:i Y'li:!d? MR. ~jPf:AKFR: nw hon ' l:hc~ Pt't:HWi.f~t· .

PREMIER PECKFO~D: T ant very sor-ry m~~Hlbc~r For Por·t att~ck his leader MR. FFFORD: to see that the de Grave would that way. A f·i.nal supp1c,~mlHltiH'Y, Mr·. Spr:~r.lker . MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary, the hon. the member for Port de Grave. MR. EFFORD : Mr. SpeakE:H', it is cl.r:~ar· that the Premier does not have an answer to the->. quc,~st ·ion. l .. et.

HJC->. ask t.he Premier, given the fact that we do not hc1ve any rnonE:~Y for· hospi.l-.dl.s, we do not have any money for E~ducdLi.on, t~Je do not. hcwe any ntcHtE:!Y for· maintenance now, 1..uhere 'i.s lhf:~ lllOtlE:'Y yoi.ng to COifiE:~ fr·om when aJ J. i he~ t has to bE:~ looked dfh'!r', c:tnd i':ht:~ lflc:d.nh'!n.:·HlCC:~ of l··.hc~ hight..uf.lys, too? Whr:~rr:~ is the money g oi . ng

h) c onH'! from? MR. SPEAKFR : Thr:~ hon. the Pr·r:~rrriEH'. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, I am sorry that the L334-0 June 21, 1988 Vol XL member for Por·t de Gr·avc-?. in t:hi s House has not reaJ.ized that $600 mi.ll"i.on -is going :i.nto he a 1 ·th Caine this year. MR. EFFORD: And beds closed! PREMIER PECKFORD: And thE~ hon. Tfll:!Hlb~:!r jus ·l~ sa:i.d that. there was no money going into h o s pi . 1-: '" 1. s t hi . s y n a r . N otAI, :i. f he wants to play around with $600 rn:i.l ."J.-i.on l.""i.kt'! l:hi :\t, br:! 1ny gLIH~'.r .. That is just not so .

Where we did t~H,~ f-i.nc:l HH~ rnorH,~y afhH' ·H l(! 'Dr·::i.\H :! in, 65'? WhE:~Ine d:id tAlE! Find 'lht:! tnonE!Y ~'fj ~l:!r' Lht::! ()r·ge!nl ··i. ,,, r·or:~d t.\JdS upgraded and we had to mainta in il·? ~\le F·ii'Hi i.l- . otJl ·. of gt:!l'lf'•r'<·11 1nevenue, and noJJ.J IJ.JE• 1Ari.l1 havE! to Fi.nd l.t:'SS bl:'CdllS~) l·:hr'!l"l>. dr'l:~ hdr·cJly any net..u roads, except the fr•ans -Labr·ador· Hi.ghiAJ<"Y, ··.i.n l::h:is package. They are all existing rodds on u1hi.ch rnaintenanc:::~ costs are very high, and JJ.Ji th thE!m bEdng upgr·ad~:!d IAJe IAJi.]l r·educe maintenance costs.

So, if a n y U ri n g , 1'-1 r· . S p (,' a k e r· , IJ.ll->. 1.1.1 i 11 save maintenance money bE!Cause of what we did yesterday. MR. SIMMS: rh(->. is the->. ar·gunwnt t:l'lt::!Y usc,~d to get their roads paved, sure. PREMIER PECKFORD : All i~he lflE'!rrJb('!rS oppos:ii .. E:~, IAJhen they g e t up with the i r p E! t i t i on s , s.:~y, liOIAJ s+:tlp-i.d "i.s tht-~ Pr'l:~trr.i.er· and the Minister of Transportation and t.ha L govc'·r·nrnc-)ni: OlJc"!r' UH'!r··c,~?

Do thr:~y not reaJize that if t.hey gaVE! ti·H~ monl:'Y For· pc:w ·i.ng fr·om community A to communi t.y B, i·t I~JOIJld nol: cost: yo11 so rnuch nt'!Xt year on maintenance? SOMF. HON. MEMBERS: Hr,,ar·, hE:~i:'lr'! PREMIER PECKFORD : No. 60 ( Aft.er·noon) R334-0

That was that lovely argument that you 11 sed . ' How stu pi . d d r e you ov~n· ther·e! You are being f i. S C r:'\ l.l. 'j i. r• reS p 0 1'1 S i. b l. (~ t 0 all . Olll this r·oad not to bf::! pavE:~d becausE:~ yo 11 c d n s d lH:~ III<HH:~ y . ' T c d n s ,.~ (~ t·he hon. r11embE:H' fo1" Ronavist.s J\Jor•l· :h (rJlr·. IIISh) .,_:jt:~ti· .'ing lip ~Uld givJ ng us a l.ectur·E:~ on that.. I C d 1'1 S E'! E:~ h "i. rn c:J 0 J 11 g i. 1-. , b I·'!

C a I I S (:~ , rJ! t' . ~3 p e a h~ , .. , ::i. t rna 1((.;! s a 11. ld n d s of sen se and IJJhy do es l:hc,~ 1nin'i.sl: ~~~· not see the rationality of my i:tr' g Uln<'ll1 t? SOME liON. MEMBERS : Hear, heal~! MR. KELLAND : Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: The han. the member for Naskaupi . MR . KELLAND: Thank yo1.1, Mr . SpE~akt:'r . Tf of i.n UH~Y g,;lVE:~ Os cars Ass E~mbJ y he would h "i. s OIJJn 111 ·i. nd, no SpE:'akE:H'. in U1P Ho1.1sE~ be a J egend cl o u b l:. , r-1 r· . HoiAleVE:H', my qUE!St.ion ts not for· l hE~ p o s i~ 1 J r i. n g Pre rn i. f:>r' I:)IJ 1: t: o I: hr.:.~ MJnister of Transportation.

In h i. s s 1-. c\ t.<:~ me n t 1. o cl e~ y p r· i. o r i. 1-. y o rw , I would take it , since it is numbt;!t' one :i.n ~J"i.s str'lh~lnE:~ni:, indicated that tHndc·H's IJJill be called for the twenty kilometer

section West of Churchill Falls on the frcHlS ···Labrctdor· Hight}.IC\Y.

In the F.ROA Enrichment package towar·ds the end, he:~ i.ndi.cal:ed that there were tu1o s e c t ions , that particular twenty kilometer section, plus the upgrading of the portion between Happy Valley-Goose Bay and Churchill Falls - even t h o u g h .l t s a y s a c c ~~ s s t. o L a b r· i:l d o r· West :it means Churchill FaJ.J s, and kc->.c.;!ping ·i.n ud.nd that you cannot tell a prospective contractor what L33'1 ·1 Jun.:~ 21., 1.988 Vol XI. to bid, can you port:i .on of l:hdt $1.9 be a11ocated to ki .J.OIIli;!I:E!t' :;ecti .on, tell me what is left prH't:? MR. DOYLF : Mr . Speaker. MR .

SPEAKF.R: r·he hon. the Transportation . MR. DOYLE : indicate 1.uhat mi .ll . i.on IJJOU lrJ the tWE!nty <~nd thE!t'C:'bY For the other rJli . ni. s b H ' of Fi.rst of nll. l<'!t 111e say, Mr. Speaker, I arn so1nr•y thE! hon. gentl~:·mcHl could not jo·:i.n 1ne Saturday on the road between Goose Bay and Church·] 11 Falls, bE!CaUS E! I djd a little tour of it, as a rnattElr of fdct, 1.11i.lh rny co lleague, the member for Torngat Mountains (Mr. ~'liarren) . Mr. Speaker, the porU on right now that we will bE! upgr·adi.ng, l:hr •1t tiAlC ;!nty koi.lolnC'!

"l::E!Y' portion, wil] be from ChurchjJ.l Fa] l.s i:.OI~li:llnd 1.1\labus h. T bc'!J. '"i.c;!V8 thE! hon. rnE!mbE!I" is asking hot..ll much 111oney 1~r.i .ll br~ cll .l.ocdl ··.,=!d. llllt:'J.l., Mr. Speaker, I cannot rE•alJ.y say r·i.ght. no1~1 l:o H1E! hon. gent.l.EHrk.trl how much money is going to be allocated on that c6ntract . Tenders wj 11 bE:~ called, hopefu1ly 1~ri . i: h -L n 1: h r,~ n E~ xi : 1: h t' e (~ or four· d i;\ y s it could be in thE· paper :.~dtur·di.'ly, ;,,s ;:1 1n~·1t.l:er· of fact: -·­ and two weeks from then we will knotAl l..llhcll: i·.ht:~ b:ids ar·e.

We ar·e not in a position right now to say IAlhr.ll~. 1-:.hCll~. t.I~JE!rlt.y k:i.l.OifiC-'!t:.t'!r S(->.Ction is going to cost, jt is impossible to put a figure on i.i:. I suppose I could get some information for the member basc:'d on what other contracts for other twenty kilometer sections cost on that road. There mtght bE! some ·indicat.-Lon I could gi.vt:' h:irn. But I surely cannot givE:~ him any indication now cts to what the contract is going to come in at 1\Jo. 60 (Af'l ~t~r·noon) R334.1

and 1.1.1hat the tender will be awarded at. That i.s sorneth:i.ng we are going to have to look at. MR. SPEAKER : Order, please! The time for Oral Questions has elapsed. MR. KELLAND: A point of order, Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKE I~: A pain l: of order, the han. the member for Naskaupi. Ml~. KELLANO : Just a point of clar·ification in my po ·tnL of ordc:!r. In ·Uw r·esponsE:~ l:o my first question, Mr·. Sper.tker·, i~he rni.n'i.ster -jnch.catecl he 1.uas sorry I did not accompany him up l:o the ChurchJ.ll FaJ.J.s road on Saturday. I invited the minister to go up on Friday. MR. SPEAKER : Olnder, please! MR.

KELLAND: On a point of privilege, Speaker. MR. SPEAKER : There is no point of privilege. MR. SIMMS: Sit down standing. MR. SPEAKER : when Order, please! the Speaker There is no point of order. MR. KELLAND: Mr. is That is a cheap shot, Mr. Minister . Answers to Questions for which Notice has been Given L3342 June 21, 1988 Vol XL MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister· of Public Works and Services . DR. HIIOMEY : Thank you, Mr. Speaker . I wish to tabh~ in this han. HousE• answers to three questions asked by the han. mernbE:~r for· Burgee Bay d 1 Espoir, questions 105, 186, and anothE:~r question aslu=!d in carnE!ra.

MR. SPEAKER : The hon _ the Pre side nt of LhE! Council. r.IJR. SIMMS: T. to~.ri. s h to t: a b 1 Co~ i'l n s wo r· s l-. o l)Jr' ·.it: t: en questions poSE!d by thE! hon. rTH :!rnber · For Menihek (Mr. Fenwick); questions Nos. 148, 149, 150, 151, 152, 1.53, J.f)l\., E>'), E>6, 15'7, 158, 159, 160, 161, 162, 163, 164-, 165, 166, 16'7, 1.68, 169, and ques t.ion No. 170, aJ.l of which were the Sdtne questions t:o all the ministers. I haVE! prE!parE :!d a response on their behalf. Orders of the Day MR. SPEAKER : Order, pleasE:~! As han. members know, thE!

Governrnc:Hlt House LE:~ader Ci3.lls l::he order of the day, and the p a r t i c u l. a r· -.i t e m t h a L IAJ e a r e dealing with today was called by t h e h o n . t: h e Go lJ e r nrn E:! n t H o u s e Leader yesterday. It 1.1.1as r.tdjot .lrned by me at elevt>n o 1 clock. So I will now call on tha hon. tha Leader of the Opposition to continue on third reading of 11

An Act To ArnE:'nd And Consolidate The Law Relating To The Usc;! And OpE:~rr.ttoi.on Of Vc,~hi.cles .. 11 No. 60 R3342

The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. WELLS: Mr. Speakt?.r, when IAJ(,~ adj ournE-~d last. evE:~ ni ng I tAJas talking about th<,~ -i.rnpdct on OIH' hi.ght.•.Jays throughout this Province of the closure of th<,1 rcti.lway. t IAJ<'l:> talking about alternatives that we can use to Bvoid that, and expressing the view that there IAH :! r e c o n s 1: i t 1.1 t i o n a l. a l. l e r n a t i v e s u.Jhj ch the government has ignorE!d. This governi!IE!nt, v.Jh 'i.ch used to proclaim our constitutional rights, have now chosen to say they no longer exist. The sirnplE! fact. is, Mr. Speaker, they do ex:ist.

They arc::1 t..uritten in Term 31. The Premier talks about the legal opinions he had, and he tables something that he calls a synopsis or an excerpt, but I have not yet seen a legal opinion. I understand legal opinions have been wd.tten, but. I have yet to see t.hE!tn. It has not beE!l'l t.ablE!d in this House. What was tabled hc::~r-e t..uas a sharn or a pretence for a 1 c::1gal opinion. It was not the legal optni.on of a lawyer t..uho had looked at it in the constitutional sense. So lAJhen UlC::! Prerni.P.r taJ.ks about legal opinions, I would like to see l::h<c'IO. Now, Mr. Sper.lk<'!r, looking r.lt.

T(:!t~m 31. -· this is not. just my opinion alone, thi.s is the op:i.rLi.on oF a great many other lawyers with whom I have spoken about the provi.sions of this term - when this term was written, they were dealing u.Jith a particular situation, how to provide for transportation in Newfoundland. We have to remember that at that time, Mr. Speaker, there were no roads in Newfoundland. The transportation system in Newfoundland was the Newfoundland Railway and the L3 343 June 21, 1988 Vol XL Steamship and Marine Services around the coast.

That was our total transportation sysb~m. with the exception, perhaps, of a road around Conc~>.pl :i.on Bay and one between Bishop's FaJls and Grand FaJls and one between Corner Brook and Deer Lake. That was essentialJ.y i.t. Other than that there UJE!re no roads in th-.:Ls Provi.n<:E!. ~::;o t.hr:-1.1:. 'is lAJhat t:he people who negotjated the Terms of un ·ion and IAJho went: l::o Ottat..ua l:.o get the position of the federal governmenl wore negot·Lating at the time. They talked about hou.J this lAJou]d b<->. in l:.egrated . For •~xarnple, ~~r.

Speaker, when the federal government responded to questions raiSE!d by rnE,rnbers of Uw National Convention as to what the position was with respect to transportation, here is what thG!Y said, here is their written rE:~sponse. MR. J. CARTER : May I pose a serious question? r.IIR. WELLS: A ser i.ous qtwstton afteru.Jards, but I am going to finish this first. Their serious response was that U10 t.:t..uo conuni.t.Leo.:; r:-lgr(~(~d that. a committee would be struck to E:~Xatn:i.nG c:Hld r(~port upon pr·obl(:!l ·ns involved in the integration of thE!

NE!I..Ufoundl.i'lncl GOVE:H'I'HrWnt RaJluJay System with the existing transportation facilities in Canada. Now that is what they were doing. They recognized that one of the fundamental responsibilitjes of the federal government was to provjde for this nation a national transportation system. If hon. members will reflect back for a rnoment on their history, they will No. 60 R3343

~ remember thr.~L thr.~ ·t 1.vas the reason that this country came into existence "i.n th~~ fi.rst pJ.ace, primarily to provide a transportation connection amongst the colonies, and that was their primary activity for the first twenty years or so that the Government of Canada existed. That was their primary objective and this was recognized at the time. Mr. Speaker, here is the posiU .on taken by the federal government as contained in a memorandum from the Assistant. Secretary l:o the Cab"i.nE!t to the Secretary of State for External Affairs with respect to th~~ railt ..

Jay. 11 In the event of un·i.on [ th-Lnk :i.t IAJOuld b(,~ almost inevitable that in the course of time the rai.l.IAJay tuouJ.d become p<.'lrt of the government-owned system since we now prouide a governmental transcontinental systE!Tn cove:~ri.ng all. protJ.'i.nces and could scarcely make an exception i.n the case of one. 11 Now, Mr. Sp~::~aker, th(,'Y can no mor'~:! make an exception for Newfoundland in 1988 than they could make an exception in 1948.

They could not walk away from their responsibility to maintain across this Province the national transportation system that tiE!S the country together fr'orn British CoJ.umbia to Newfoundland. They could not do it in 1948, and they can not do it in 1988. There is a constitutional right, it is provided for. It may not be technically, sp(~cifi.cal.J.y, -.id~::~alJ.y worded, but it is clearly provided for, and no feder'r:-ll. governmE~nt worth its salt would walk away from it. And we haue Mr.

Mulroney's word for that, 11 that thoy IAJOitld honour "i.l·:, 11 ~H:~ sai.d, except that this government was so L3344- June 21, 1.988 VoJ. XL anxj .o11s l:o get its hr.~nds pal try dollars that they L'l'i.rthr'i.ght, thE!Y sold our down the drain for it . on a few sold our her'i tage SOME HON. MEMBERS : H(c~ar, h(~dln! MR. WELLS: There were othE!r exarnple:~s, Ml". Speaker. Here, for example, is an extract from a mE!rnorandurn writ .'tE!n by th<:~ Assistant. ::3ecr'c~tary to l:.hc~ Cabinet to thE! Secretary of ~HatE! For External Affairs, ,"''r. Louis St.

Laurent, and talkE!d about thE! capital expE:~ndit:ur'E!S that tAJould be nE•cessary to maintain and opE:!rab:! the rR'i.lway in Newfoundland. A n o t h (,~ r o n (~ , f"l r' .

S p (c~ a k ('! r' , L·. h :i. s o n E! dealing with the question of debt.. ~ion. memb<c~rs IAril.l. rerm~rni:H:~r yE:~sterday I spoke about de:~bt, that: it llli:'IS UH~ d~~bL oF 1\JE:~IA.Jfoundland in respect of the railway that droue it i.nl:o bankruptcy in 1934, and wi i:h - the program providE!d fol'' in this Rgreement For the transportation system will be a debt that will drive thts Province into bankruptcy in the future i.f we allow it go ahead on this basis . NotA.J, Mr.

Speaker, the extra debt will comE! from buiJ.ding the roads we will need in the future to take the freight and traffic that thE! railtAJay tAJould haVE! car·r'ied had ·it been left in place and operating. DR. COLLINS: You do not believe the figures? MR. WELLS: No, I do not believe the figure of fourteen trucks. You would have to be an idiot to bel."i.eve it. Her·e ·i.s anothE:~r exE:H'pt, Mr. Speaker, talking about the '" J. t. or' nat-. ·i.tH~ fin an c-i. a l ;:u·r'C:Hlgerne n l: s with NewfoundJ.and. This is an No. 60 R3344

extract from a memorandum by members of the Interdepartmental Committee on Newfoundland, which was a committee made up of members of the federal Cabinet. Here is IAJhat thE:~Y said about. the r·c..d l.tAJay. "It is suggested that assumption of the"~ r·ai lt~Jay and stec:unship ser·vices would be justified on the ground that :i. t IAJas HHH'f~l.y Hw t~xtension of the coast-to-coast t r· <Hl s p or tat ·i. o n s y s t cHn to l a k (:~ c a r e of the needs of a neiJ.J province." Thdt is whal~ thE!Y '"Jere doJng IAJ-i .lh Term 31, that is what Term 31 rc:d=-lects.

Thr·1l~ is whai U·. rE:~i'llJ.y met'.lns. that the federal government did for Newfoundl~nd what it is doing for· every other provinCE! of t:his Canada, maintaining IAJil:hi.n the Province of NewfoundJand the Newfoundland portion of the national transportation system. Mr. Speaker, I just ask hon. members to listen car·efully to these words. Here is what the Government of Canada was saying that it mE!ant to them at the U .mE! that it IJJas negot:iated.

"It is suggested that assumption of the railway and steamship services would be justified on the ground that it IJJas merely the extension of the coast-to-coast t r a n s p o r t a t i. o n s y s 1: em t o t a k e c a r· e of the needs of a ne1JJ province. 11 1\loiJ.J, H1~1l-. is '"Jhat t:he Fed~~ral. government should have done, assutnE!d rc:!sponsHri.l.ity for it, and that is what thE:~Y werE:~. in fact, do-i.ng. r h E:~ r 8 a r e o l:: h e r a r t i. c J. e s • M r· . Speaker, that deal with it, other memoranda written by Canadian representatives which indicated the manner in which they saw it at the time.

Item 2 in this particular one written in August of 1947: "Canada was to take over and oper·ate the raihJay IJ.rith its steamshj p SE!rvices." Another L3 345 June 21, 1988 Vol XL memorandum dated August 13, 1947: "Canada to take over the Newfoundland Railway and its associate steamship services and operate thE!m in a rnannE!r no lE!S s s e r v i c c"~ a b 1 E~ t. o l~ hE~ N E!IJJf o u n d 1 a n d public than at pr·esent. 11 No1JJ, that :i.s hoL11 l::h~~Y v'.iE!IAJPd Uwir responsibility at the time, Mr. 5 p E~ a k r~ r . d n d t·: h i:·1 l: .i s 1..1J h a t :i s reflected in Term 31.

Here is another one where they crer:-~I:Gd r.1 spHci,'lJ. sttb - conllnil:ter ,~ of the tiJJo dE!lE!gations meE!tin~J j n 0 t: 1:: atAJ<'l l: o cl e a J. ~~~ 'L l h t h -L s -.i s s u E! . Here is the task they gave the sub--comrnil::tE:~E!: 11 To br·:ing t.ogc'd:.hE!In inforrnatjon on the Newfoundland Railway and Steamship Services 1.1Ji th a viE!IAJ to enablj ng thE:!

Canadian representatives to examine the problems that would be involved, in the event of union, in the integration of the Newfoundland Government Railway and Steamship Services with the Canadian l:ransportat.ion system. 11 So all they were doing was integrating that. into the nationaJ transportation system and recognizing that it was nothing more l::han di.scharging, for thE! new Province, the national obligation to provide For the national transportation system. Now that, Mr. Spc:!aker, I say clearly indicates the proper construction to be placed on rerm 31 of the Terms of Uriion.

When they taJ.k abot .tt Laki .ng OIHH' and will., i3.S from the date of union, relieve the Proutnce of Newfoundland of the public cost incurred in respect of each system ti3.ken over, namely. "the NeiJ.Jfoundland Railway, including steamship and other marine sE:~rvices." That ts what they were t~lking about, Mr. Speaker. MR. J. CARTER: No. 60 R334S

Would the hon. member permit a question? MR. WELLS : A brief question, yes. MR. SPEAKER: The hon . the member for St. John's North. MR. J. CARTER: I appreciate that the Leader of !:he Oppo:;i t:ion has yieldPd for· a moment, and I will be very brief. I think he~~ :is making a good argument. I think hjs arguments are sound, as far as they go. But I tAJE~ll remember in 1949 it was quite unthinkable that frtdght tAJould be moved other than by r.:dl or by wab:~r, qcl'i te unthinkable. ThE:~ large. hf~avy ·-duty tr·ucks, the so-called super highways, were not even concei.lJE:~d, let dlone b11i .J.l: .

NolAJ, :if this was still 1949 or even 1952, you would be right . Mf~. WF.L.LS : That is not a question. MR. J. CARTF:R: But you are tA.Jrong, bE:~causc~1 - MR. WELLS: The han . member can make his speech lal:-.t::~r. That is the last time I wilJ. yield . That is not a question but a part of his argument, and hE! can make it when he spc-?.aks. NolAJ, Mr. Speaker, t~li:'lt is clear·J.y what Term 31 was intended to do, intended to achieve, to reflect those arrangements and those proposals.

The government which maintained that position at one time suddenly does a reversal when it wants to do this deal and get its hands on some money . (lnd !.:hr>. Pl~erni.er· E:~xplains it by saying, oh, IAJE:'ll, I l.llt-\S only pt·act: .i.C'Lng a l. 3 346 June 21, 1988 Vol XL. deception l.llhAt hE:~ practicing time . at that time. That is said, 'I was only a deception at 'l:he . It was political posturing.' That is what this Pr emif:'r does, politicdl posturing . Mr . Speaker, if you want to get tc-?.chn.ica 'l i'lnd ar·gue that t:hE·r ·e ·is no obligation to operate the railway. that. .is t:echn·ically correct.

I have never suggested t.hc,'r'e was. Anybody \)Jho looks at the Liberal position stated clr:1ar·ly over l:he last numbfH ' oF months knows that the obligation is to ma:int.atn \Ali l:.h.in NE!IAJfoundland the Newfoundland portion of the national transportation syst em . And if that is bE~st done by highway, okay. le ·t :i. t be clone by highway. It doE:1s not haVE! to bE! rai ltAJay. But j_ t dOE!S not in any manner diminish thr:~ constitutional obligation to do just that. And fllrl:l·lel~mor·e, iF you tAJant to just get technical about it and J. 00 !c i'\ 1: i-h(~ t·.f~ C hnJ Cdl.

IAJOY'd S, the Province could take over and operate the rctil.wciy, on the technical words, and send thE! bill. for the defi. c i.l:. to the GovernmE!nt of Canada, because the Government of Canada has unquestionably undertaken to relieve the ProvinCE! of Newfoundland oF the cost involVE!d in the operaUon of .it . ·rhat could be done. DR. COLLINS : Are you advising that? MR. WELLS: I do not r e co mrn f:HI d i. t • but it is stupid to abandoned constitutional rights. It is s.ill.y, Mr.

Speaker, to abandon constitutional rights dnd i.n orcf(:1r to pr~::~sent this package to the public pretend that tAle hi'IVE! no ri.ghl s und E!r T<.;!rrn 31. That is clearly wrong, d(: 'rnons l:rabl.y lAJr'ong . ThE! r·-i.ght .s No. 60 R3346

are there . Mr. Speaker, that is opinion alone. It was an that uJas expressed by Peckford before. It not my opinion Premier was an opinion that was expressed recently by Prime Minjster MulrorHo1y, who said ·in August, 1984, "A Progressive Conservative GOV(::'r'nlrl('!nt v.d.l.l. support. and continUE! to operate the 1\Jt;!I~Jfounclland f~d ilt.~.Jay. 11 Was ho practicing a deception too? Was thAi: jus{-. poliLical. post .11ri .ng? MR. TUI .I<: It couJ d bE! . MR. WrLLS: Th<;! then De pu t:y Pr·ime r'li. ni s +.:e r, the hon.

Erik Nielson, was asked about thi .s in 1986: "Wi l.l the Deputy Prime Minister assure us that since this task force recommend the abolition of this raiJ.tJJay, the governm<oHlt IJJi l.l Jive up to its election promise to the people of Newfoundland and keep that raLlway? 11 Here is uJhat the Deputy Prime Minister said, 11 Mr. Speaker, what the Leader of the New Democratic Party is exposing is his ignorance of the Terms of Union between the Government of Canada and Newfoundland. Clearly all Ulf~t the Pr ·i1n<;!

Mini .s+.:c~r tJJa:; saying in that speech that tAJa s quoh:!d by thE:1 hon. c:JE!nt.l.ellli:Hl I.•Ms a t·l':~affirrnation that this government intE!nds l~o honour t.he fE!r·ms of Unjon between Canada and NeiJJfoundlRnd, <:Hid Hldi". i.s onE! of thE:'TTI. 11 What is it? To continue to op<~rate the 1\Jei.~.Jfoundl.t'lnd Railway? Now that is what the Prime Minister thought of it in 1984 and that is what the Deputy Prime Mi.ni.s l:E!Y' sai.d i.n 19H6. W<=!re they practicing political posturing i:Hld dec<:dving ·t:oo?

ClE!arly there is a constitutional obligation, recognize~ by L3347 June 21, 1988 Uol XL everybody, that has been abandoned, sold out by this government to prouide it with some money to run an E!lE•ction in desperation because they krww what is going to happE•n when the next election is caJ.J.ed. DR. COLLINS : That is all water bridge. Tt hds nothing the issue at hand. MR. WELLS : under the to do with T t: h <'Is .'\ gI n f'! <.-1 t: de r'tl. t: o cl o 1~1i t. h the issue at hand.

What the g o IJ <:H' nrn C"! n t ·i s d o ::i. n g i s transferring and continuing to l::rdnsFc:!r to 1\J(~wFounciJ.and, r.'lnd l.:hJs is wher<~ my conCE!rn cornes i.n -·· UIE! finEtnc:iaJ. bur·ciE!rl L:hi"'tt Lhe fE:'cl( :1r·al government undertook in 1949. Because, Mr. Speaker, you have to bear in m~ind that in 1949 thE!re were 2,990 employees on the railway and another 761 E!rnploycH>.s in thE• steamship services a tota1 of 3, '7~10 employN!S for lAJh:i.ch the federal government took responsibility.

Today there are 642, and that is the extent to which the burden has already been transferred by allowing the r<'lilway to deteriorat:e and allowing diversion of traffic from !:hr:1 rc-dl.t.~.my ont.o Uw hightAJay, and it is this Province that is car·ryJng th<:! burd(:!n of paying i::he people who would otherwise have rna"i.JTI:r'l:.i.rH~d th(~ rai.llAJay but now have to maintain the highway.

So l:ho bur·den hi'IS bf~t=!l'l tr·ansf(=•rrE!d l~.o the Province by that means and I: hi . s gotJ ern me nl: has f <'~ i 1E!d to enforce those rights, failed lfli.sr~rabl.y 1:o (>.nforce those r·ights, and now they say they do not c~xi.st. Thos(~ IAJor·ds mec:~nt something, they dealt with a fact:IJi:'ll . s"ltudt:ion that E:1Xist.E"~d iHld continued to exist, and the government has abandoned the No. 60 R3347

constitutional sold it out. r-i .ght, th<::~'j hc.we The real problem, too, Mr. Sp<::~ak(:!r, is nol: just Hld-.i.ni'.:enanc(~ costs. fverybody recognizes that maintenance cost is a prouincial responsibility . The building of highways is a provinc ·Lal responsibility, the maintaining and oper·ating of th~:>rn is Cl provincial responsibility, but, Mr·.

Speaker·, i::hE! point. we mRb~ is jf you arE! going to abandon the railway and increase the provincial burden w'it:h respect to highways, then it. is fair that. th<::~ federal government, which had responsibiJ.ity for the railway, should take that burden as L.IJelJ.. That is IAJhy IAJe say they ShOIJld pay the capital cost of twinning the highway and the additiondl costs of maintenance made necessary as a result of the tw"i.nning .

Not the basic maintr:~nancE:~ cost but the addi.t.ionctl cost rnr:=~de nec:E:~Ssdr·y r:~s a r·E:~sul t. of divc:H'ting tr·affic from 1-. hE:' r· a i l.IAJi?l y onto t. h l:' hi g l'll•kl y system, necessitating a more e:~xb"!nsive sy~d:(~rn. ThaL i.s 1~1hc:~t H1eir responsibiljty is, that IAJas what was prouided for in the Terrns of Union, and that is what this gov<::~rnment hi~ls sold out., cledrl.y sold out. The statemPnt that was issuE:~d yesterday indicates that they expect it is going to cost $2.5 million per ki1omE:~ter to constuct four-lane divided highway.

Ultimately, that is going to have ·to be done in this Pr·ov-i.nce because the traffic is diverted from the raih1ay to t.hr:~ highiAJay. That is what wi11 necessitate it at. an earlier· stage than it would ever otherwise have been done, and IAJhen it is, if this agreE:~rnent goes t h r 0 ugh as it is 11 ow I that burden will be this Prouinces's burden and that is what concerns me . If 1_3 31~8 June ::?1, 1.9138 \Jo 1. X 1.. '.'i.l: i.s too (:!Xp<::~n~d~H~ no1;.1 For thE~ federal government to do, what is i.l: goi.ng l-.o be~ for Hri.s Pr·ov:incc:! that cannot even keep its hospitals operating properly?

What is it going to bE! for this Provlnce where school children have to go out and raisE• rnonE•y so HH:~ schools Ci:Hl hdV(:! lnat.E!Y' "i.al.s l:o work with? That is the situation 1~1e ar·e "i.n. Tn t:h~~ n1.::~antirne, Mr· . Sp(:~al<c:H', just. look at the other side of j t, The federal govPrnmen t is being relieved of the $40 million a year deficit on the operations of Terra-- Trans port, thE!Y ar·e being relievc:!d of an addit. .ional $20 mi11ion a year deficjt on the raj] sc:'Ct.ion of the Gulf operations, so that is at the very least $60 mi11i .on a yHar.

Now, if the federal government E!Ven continued l:o di .sche1rge !':hat. obligr: ·ltion, c:<tnr.l did nothing more over the life of i'.hf:~ l S .. yr::~~:n· agn :H:'Tflenl·., it IJ.IouJ.d require $900 m:il1ion, IAJhich is rno r· E:~ l-. h. :~ n l hey so ·1. cl thE! t h ·i. n g out for. It clearly indicate s, Mr . ~3 p (:~'"

b) r I t h r:~ 1·: i'. h (:! y i·n:~ \) e all OIAIC'! d us to be taken to the cleanE!rS. Not only ·~ll.OIAJE~d 1~:>, butT t.h"i.nk, Mr. Speaker, they have pushed us on the way, and they will never be forgiven for it. MR. TULK : They took us to the pawn shop . MR. WELLS: That is right . While we cannot E!VE!n operate our· own hospitals and schools, the Government of Canada is being relieved of its responsibility totally. Mr. Speaker, bc,~fore I would like to address po"i.nts rnr:~d(~ by hon. sit. dOIJ..Jn I a couple of rriC'!ITibE!rS Wh(:!n MinJster of they spoke . The No. (i0 lB348

Health talked about maintenance and the cost of maintenance, dnd that it is a provincial responsibi l.ity and the Pr·ovince should take the responsibility for it. That is the same minister· who last year, as Minister of Finance, prostrated himself before the Government of Canada begging for money becaus(-:! Nc,~IAJfoundland 1.1Jas :in financial chaos, and thE! sam(:~ Premier· IAJho spoln=:! tJ ·1os~:! wor·ds, 11 Newfounclland is in financiaJ. chaos. We have gol to go cap-in--hand begging to thE! GovE:~r·nlnc,~n 1·: of Cdnddd. '' And Lhey do this dE~al :in this IJ.Jay!

It is c l. e C:H'l. y , M r· . :3 per:\ kl~ r· , S h or t -I: E:' r·m gcdrt fol" Jong---tc,~rm pa:in. That is t~Jhal: . l:hE!Y hdve dunn. lhey h<~ve reversed Mr. Crosbie's complaint. TI'H:~Y hdvc imposed on us long --1-c;!l"rn pain in order to give them some short-term gNin, and the people of this Province will not forget it. The Minist:er· of l-ler.tl.th also sa-.-i .d that i~his Pr·ovince should be the:~ l e a cl e r· i n E a s t. E! r· n C a n a d a , b e c a u s e it has the resources and the pE!Ople. I agreP IAJith him, w~~ should be the leader.

If it were not for this government taking office in 1979, we would have been the leader. Up until the t"i.me they took office, even under P r·emi e r· Moor c,1 s , IAH~ IJJ(·H' e 1-: he l. E!ad e r of the Eastern Canadian pr•ovi.ncr:1s.

WE~ IAH:H'e gro1.~.ri.ng nttH'E:! rap:idly, our ear·ned income was increas i.ng 1nor·~~ rapi.dl.y I o11r population was increasing at a mor·e rdp·i.d r.:\1-:E:~, 11nl:-i.l. 1-.:hi .s government took off:ice and they p u L: u s b a c k b e h i. n d e IJ 1::1 r y b o cJ y -i. n the country to the point were our populai:i.on i.s dE~croasi.ng, our growth in earned income is far l. (~ s s l: h a n 1.1.1 h i'l t :i. t -i. s 'i. n a n y o f 1:: h (:1 ol her AtJ.anti c provinces. . We are way behind each ~nd every other one when we were once ahead of !:.hem a] l..

The~t is compl.imc,~nt_s of L3349 June 21, 1988 VoJ XL thj s government, and that MinistE!r of Health had a gr·e:~at deal to do with it, because he was Mini. ster of Finance for rnost of the tirne. Of course, we should be the leader "in Atlantic Canada, but undE!r that government, Mr . Speaker, we nE!VE!In w:i l. l be:~. The member for St. John's North raises the qUE!Stion: WhE!re lAJa s Uw constitutione~l. right when the passenger service was abandon ed? Thr:~t js ''-'good q11esl:.io n, so jt deserves a good anstJJer.

I say to h·i .m, i.t IAJi'IS tJ.Jor·k· ·inq C'!ffectoi.u( :!l. y and well and provided For us an a l. i:ernai::itu~, U1e I:)IJS transportation system. This gOl)('!f'l'liiiC'!I'l+: 1-Jd S SO}d the IAJOt'kS IAJ:'i i·:h no alternative, no alternat:ive h-i.ghwdy For the whol0 rdilroad . That is exactly what they have rlone. MR . PATTERSON: You so.J .cJ you di.d. y o u r· s E:) 1. f , t h a l: i s IAJ h a t You should be ashamed. MR. WELLS : Mr. Spc-?.Hkc;!r, tJJould you ask thE! han. member to get out of the House, or back to his seat, operate properly, and abide by the rules so that I can finish my speech? MR.

SPEAKER : Or·dt~r~ plE~ase! MR. PATTERSON: The Liberal party (i .n<:luriibl.c,~) llni-.i .l. you scene. MR. WELLS: Mr·. Spr~.:~i<er· I hon. member WOiil.d removed never had carnE• on the you if have the he cannot control h"i.s rubbr,1r 11101.1th? MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! No. 60 R3 3 4 -9

MR. WELLS: Mr. Speaker. I would like to be cl.bl.c-:1 to fi.ni.sh. The consti.17.Uti.onr.ll r·ighl ... s I•Jf:'Y'C:! aJJ .ve and working well, Mr. Spe~ker, when ~he passenger sc-H·vice was abandoned. It had the affect oF getting Acceptable alternatives, the bus transpor·t.at'i.on sysh)ln. Rui·. Lh·i .s govE.~Innrnent has abandonE:1d thE! r·ight.s tot.ally. They gdV(~ l:hetn etiAJa y in C 1 au s e 10 ( 1 ) of this ITlernor·anduiTl of undc'!r·stand ·ing, and they g a v e thE! m at,ua y for vi r t u a 11 y noUdng, for IAJhat. I~.H~ lAJOI .il.d hdVC:1 gotten anyway had thE!re never been such an agreement.

I JAJould just like to have a few tAJords. as well, on the Pre!rrder 1 s comments. He says if there is an obligation to maintain the railway, how come the gov8rnrnent agreed to abandon the passenger service? I hctve just expl.ctined that. We have never· mcd.ntained l: h d t 1:: her· e t.•.lt'l s c\ n o b 1. i. g l'l 1: i. on 1. o rnc.d.rd:.c.tin thr:~ r·ailtAJay.

It is not HH:! re, but ~-- hE:H'E! -i. s an ob 1. i.ga 1·.-i.o n to maintclin within Newfoundland l:h(:1 l\lE:1l~JfOIHH'Il.and por•l·:i.on of-' l .. _ht:1 ncltional transpor·tation service. and l:hat 'i.s c,1Xi'lcl-.l.y t•Jhdt IAJ<:ls done by substituting the buses for the r "' -i_ 'l p d s s e n g E! r· s c::1 r· t; ·i. c c,1 . I i: IAk\ s c:-1 mot··e '~ffectiu(:~. r.l mor'E! efficient llll-:1r.HlS, dnd l::hey subsl:tl-.ul ·:f~d a rnor·c ,~ efficient service for the one that wcts being abandoned.

So it was working well, and the constitutional obligation recognized that, and the federal government recognized it and provided for the alternative service. He also cornmentc,1d on the ArgEHJti.a Branch , and he waved this letter around, all marl<!:,,d up tn yellow, and all han. members were shouting about i. t. L3350 June 21, 1988 Vol XL 1\lotAJ, Mr. Sp,~i'~klc!r, l,~ -1-·. rnr::1 bd.l you how fundamentally dishonest this k:i .nd o·f iHl approach is, hotiJ fundamentally dishonest it ts. To bc:!~:ri.n LlJi.~h. th1::1 .lE~I~ter· -i.s a let.Ler· written by the Hon. J.W. P i. c kE:' r' s g Ll . l 1~ o M r· . T .

C . Do u glf:.~ s o n May 13. 1967. and what it says is i-:11a: ~ 11 i.nsoFdr a~; l::he ,:,lppli.ci'11:.~i. o n for abandonrnE!nt -.is concerned, it i. s b E~ --i, n g u n d Q r t. l'l !< e n p r -L n c i p a ll y o n an understanding reached with thE! CovE :!r·nrnent : of 1\lE!tAJfoundJ.i:'ind tAJhE:•n the federal government undertook to pi:lY the fu11 cost of bu"i.l.dinq a modern highway from Argentia to t.he rr·ans----Candda llightAii:IY. II At that timE!. the provincial government agreed that it would offer no objection to the abandonment of l:he rciiJ.way after the highway had been opened. Now. Mr.

Speaker, let me raise several. points. First, the agreement he was talking about was done in 1965, just for the PrE!rnier 1 s E:1di ftcation, long beforr:1 t was euery near poJ.itical activity or in the Cabinet. But that does not bother the Pr'E:Hnic-:1t'; i~r·ttl:h or fact or dccur·acy have never bothered the Premier. Tf hE:1 IAJClnLs i·:o S<:1Y sornE~th ·i.ng, he just says it anyway. Truth, fact, s u p p o r· t f o r· IAI h ,:'1 1: h C:! ·i. s s a y .i. n g h a s never botherE!d him, nor· dOE!S it: boLhr.:H' hon. rnf~lllbc ,!rs oppos 'i. h:1 IAJho jump on the bandwagon and say th(! sc.HII(:~ si.l.J.y -thi.ng.

The other thing that the government at the time did, of course , was ins 'is t t. hat 0 t t. at.1.1a pay the full cost of the road and that it be done and compJ.eted before there was an app]ication to abandon - that it be done and completed before. As well, Mr. Speaker, it was a b r a n c h 1 oi. rH~ . Now let me tell. you No . 60 R3350

the rest of the t.r·rrl -.h. Mr. Speaker; in fact the Liberal GoVE!rnrrrE!nt rH~!Vl~1r did abandon. They persuaded Ottawa to continue . Do you know r.uhen that branch line was abandoned? In December. 1986, by this government. That is whE!n it was abandoned! SOME HON. MEMBERS : HE!ar, hear·! MR. WEI _LS: Lies, deception do not mean anything to thHm. Pul : on a shobl, divert attention when you ar ·e b l.;! . i. n g s 1'.: u n g I c.·1 n d IAI h o n y o u d r H bE1:ing hurt say anyth:ing to divE1rt a-t:teni' :'i. on. II: . doc~1s no!: rrrdl':tE't' that ::i.t is not tr·ue. Say anything you want to divert attention.

MR. PATTERSON : Mr. Speaker, a point of order . MR. SPE(.)KER: A po·.'i.nt of ordc.;!r', Uw hon. the merrrbN' for Placentia. MR. PATTERSON : CN made application to the Board of Transport Commissioners in 1966 to abandon the branch line, providing they would not oppose the transfer of the South East Coast Terminal to St. John 1 s. You were a minister in the gov ernrne nt. You IAle r·e the r·e. You are a quisling. You sold out the raih.Jay. MR. WELLS: Mr . Spc.;!aker, that is not a point of or·cler. MR. PATTF.RSOI\J : That is the truth. MR.

SP[AI<fR: To t h e1 L p o i. n 1.: o f o r· d c~1 r' , t h (~ r c~1 "i. s no point of or·der. L.3351. June 21, 1988 Vol XL The~ hon. the Leader of Opposition . MR. WELLS: Thank you, Mr . Speaker . Whatever arrangement was between Mr. Pickersgill and SmallrAIOod tAJas made sornet·.irTIE1 1964 or 1965 long bE!fore I thought of politics . the ITli'H.i e M1~. in E!Ver But in any eVE!nt:, Mr. t.~li'll-: int:c~r·ject. 'i on shot.vs use anything to divert from the reali ty of what done. SpE!akel~ I l.: h ~:!

Y lAJ:l. l.l attention l·:h!:'!Y ha~1 e Then ti'w Pt~emier· taJ.ked about thE! r· <:' opE! n ro! r· c l. <:·11 .1 s P , , .. h ;,1 1: :i. s g o .i. n g l: o soJve everything . That reopener cl..::~trse ·i.s dl'l dbsol.ui ".('! noti'dng. I l:. has got about as much substance as fog . n ll . :i. +: say s i. s 1·: here tAli ll be a review. For what purpose? What does the Federal government und~:,rtake to do after the revielAJ? 1\Jol::hi.ng. Absol.ut.Ply. nothing! Mr.

Speaker. even Term 29 had a requi.remen t For· add:i tional financial assistance, that the Federal government would provide additional financial assistance, and look at what happenE!d t.o T<.;!rrn 29 that the Liberals fought so hard for and the Tories resisted. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. WELLS: Now th is so -cal.lerl rev iew is nothing. Other than I.UE! L~ill sj t doi~Jn dnd look 1:·11·: 'i.t· ., t.h<~~r·c~1 :is no obligatton to provide onE:' furthe1~ si.ngl.e c~~nl · .. It ·i.s i:-1 cornplet:e smoke-screen to divert attention <'igt'li .n.

Thl~1 ferh:H'al gov<~!Y'rliiiE!nt could do with _ this the same as IJ'i.!::1F<~1nbd!o:!r did l11:i.l:h T~:!rm 29, which gave Newfoundland nothing, tJ i. r 1-. u ,::~ 1.1 y . No. 60 R3351

MR. PATTERSON : What did the L.i beral s do with the I.W.A.? MR. WELLS: As thE:' han . the member· for Fortum~ Ht:H 'JIIi.tdge s<:-1i .d, T dnJ also r·t::~sponsiblE:! fuJ" thE:~ TJnojiHI horsE:~. T h E:! n , f·1 r· . !3 p e f'l !((;! r , t.: h l"! y s a y l: h e r· 1::~ :is no cons{-j tutional obligation. RuL look ai: ~~Jhdl: Cldus:~ lO (

l) says: 1 Th(,~ for·E~goj ng ar-r-ang(,!TTJE:~nls c\r'(,~, hOIAlC:!VI::!r, offl'!J"eci ~WY' E:~" i.n by Canada as a comprehensive t r· d n s p o r· 1:. a t -i. o n p a c k c:·l g f:~ i n t f'! n d I'! d t·: o address the parties 1 concern to p r· o v i d l,~ a f u l l a n d t'! F f <:! ct-i . v e transportation service for the Island of Newfoundland Following the closure of the Newfoundland Railway.

It is offer·ed ln full satisfaction of all Canada 1 s constitutional obligations r·ela l:.ed to railways on the Island of Newfoundland 1 - 1 In full satisfaction of all Canada 1 s constitutional obl. i.gab.ons, 1 but none exist according to the Premier - 1 ctnrl Newfoundland acknowledges that these iH'r'cHlg (,~me:~ nl: s <:H' (,~ m~1d (:~ For· such purposes, and accepts that when carr· -i.e cl out. and perfor'JII~~d in 01 c cor· dancE:' w'.i t h thE:~ p r· o v j s ions and inh =!nl': of Hd .s Mf~lfiOt'<HldiiTII of Und E!r' standi. ng, t.hE:!Y wi 11 J"e prE:' s E~ nt c:·1 rnec~ 1-. :i. ng, l~o U·11,, s "'t· ."L !) Far: t .. i. on oF Newfoundland, of Canada 1 s cons 1·: -i_ tu +·. i.o nc'll ob 1 i.ga ·i·.'.i.o n s r·~~ ·1. •'11 -:E:!d to ra:iJways on 'thE:~ Island of Newfoundldnd. 1 Now, Mr .

Speak er, no Liber~l. Government would ever sell out our her·ltage r:'lnd our· constitut:ionc1l rights in that manner. would ever abandoned or ever allow the Government of Canada to abandonE!d lts constitutional obligations in that matter. And I am happy to say. Mr. Speaker. that the Federal Liberal Par·ty has agreed that as 1..3 3 52 JunE:~ 21, 1.988 Vol. XL soon C\S the gover•nrnent is chang(:>d in Ottawa and the government is ch<Hl9€~d h€~r(:>, Hl(:~ 1-.I.JJO govc:H'nrnent.s will get together and, Mr. S p E~ c:'lk (~ r , r· o s hH' €~ 1-. o N E:!

IAJf o u n d 1 a n d her constttutional r'ights under· Tt::!r'lfl :11.. SOME HON. MEMBERS : H (,~ c:H' I h e ct r· ! Ml~. WEL LS: We will make sure, Mr . Speaker, i·.l'h'1t Ter'1n 3'1. i.s dffl('!l'ldC'!d ·i.n such a manner as to g'iVE! Canada l:hE! In €~ s pons 'i. b i. ·1 :i. l'.: y For· I Tid .i. n t. a .i.n ".L n q within Newfoundland the 1\I(,'I."JfoundJ.and por·t· "i.on of l::hr; national transportation system, even !:hough it mr.1y be a highway . SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. WELLS: It IAJi ll be rnadE~ abundantly clE!ar, Mr . Speaker - DR.

COLLINS : ~\loul.d they do l·.:hc\t for· all provinces, or just this Province? MR. WFLLS : F:IJl,~r·y pr'OIJ'i.nce '"lht :!r'(,~ l:ht:=! nationdl railway is abandoned totally, yes. SOMF. HON. MFMRFRS : Hf~dr, hei'lr' ! ·- MR. WELLS : Every province IAJher·e thE~ national rcd.l.l~k~Y is abemdorH~d t.o tall. y, because it is fundamental to this country thdt ~he federal government maintain an effective national transportation system. That is the precept on which this country was built. DR. COLLINS: How would ~ou handle the education system and having to fund that also? No. {)Q R3352

MR. WE'L L.S: We iH'P not handi .ng OIJf:'r <'lny education system. Any province l~hat. doc,~s no1-. 1~1ant i.t. can r·l':~fLISC:~ it. DR. COLLINS: How lJ..Jould this be set out to HH>. Government? MR. WELLS: That is a IndPed, it response . pretty weak response. is a very, very weak Now, Mr·. Spt~aker, the govt>r'nrnE!nl:. sits in this House and pretends that they hcive gotten a grec'lt dE:~al. E:i.ght hundrE!d mJlJ.ion. they say • $40 f:i rni.l.l . :ion for· t. h (·'! Trans-Canada Highway in lieu of t h ~~ r• d i.l.l..llr'l y . r•1r . ~ fl E! d k l:H' , IAJE!

IJJouJ d ha.ve gotten that much or 100r(~ ove:~r fi.fh>.Hn Yt'ar·s l.o~ri.thnu-1: th:J s agreement.. We probabJ y would hdve got:I:E!n lllOr'l-:1. Ol)l::~r· l ... h1::~ l•~st fift..t=:~EHI year·s, j n hH'n1s of federa] funds For· r·:~bui .J.d ·i.ng c:·lnd I"E!Sti"Uctur·ng thE:~ hjghl..lli-:lYS, WE:~ got rnore thcul t:hc:~t l.o~Ji.thout: hdtri.ng 1-.o abandon anything. So it is a not.h-Lng, Mr. Spf~i ~kE!r, that thc,1y s o J d it o u t for . I wi 11 t e 11 y o u what they sold it out for, the $100 million that they can use and announce now to rnake thern look good for election purposes.

That is exactly l.~oJhat they sold :it out for, $100 m:i.llion slush fund, and they sold out the future of the Province. MR. MORGAN: Your time i.s up . MR. WELLS: No, it is not. rJJr . Spf<:1ak~H', 1-.h,:li : ·i.s 1-.hE! t'edl 'i.l ... y of it· .. MR. J. CARTER: The I edder of th~! Oppos:iUon's L33 53 J1me 21., l91l8 \Jol. XI_ time is up . MR. WELLS: I r:~l.so spokc :1, Mr·. Speaker ·, dur·ing Question Period about the other t.ol.o~Jn s aff P c t.E:!d, and t: h J s .i. s a s er·iou s rna t ter. You cannot sol u E~ tl'wsc->. pr·oblerns by giving l:.wo towns some benefit. What about thE! o t h <->. r· t.

OIAJtl s l: hat p r· o p or· t: .l. on at<:! 1 y are E!qualJ.y adverSE!ly affE•ctE!d? What dboul~ those to1.o~ms? You cannot walk away from that respons-Lb ·iJ.i ty, l'-1r'. Speclker. particularly not where you give it +·.o some,~. It l.o~Jould bc.~ eas:i~H' l::o do, clnd fairer, if you prouidE!d non~1 i:'ll:: r:~ll, bl.ll".: to pr'OIJ "i.dE:! j 1: 1::-0r onJ.y two of the towns that are g o ""i. n g i: o b e '' i. g n i. f i. c a n \: 1 y adversely affected is clearly IAJr'O 1'19. rJadger· i.s onH of 1 ... hOS(:! towns. Badger wilJ lose a third of the l'll.lrrlbt:H' of r:HnpJ.oyc:!(''S i-.hr.d·.

Bi .shop' s Falls IJJi11 Jose. There t~.,dJ.l be a s i. g n :i. F ·i. c ,,, n i·: d d v r.:! J" s r-:! l:! con o rn·.:i. c impact on Badger. ThP railroad l.o~Jor·k Ct't:>I)JS opcH'dl~f:! out:. of Badger during the Summer and buy their goods and suppl.:i.~:1s th<:~rE:1, so the town will be significantJ.y adversP.ly C'lffecb->.d by th""i.s, and it is wrong to provide an alternative for Bishop's Falls and none for BadgE!r. I also mentioned seasonal l.o~Jor·ker·s.

No1~o1, nothing :i.s mentioned in this package about sE:.asondl l~oHH'ker·s, but l::ht:~ Prern ·.i c~r told us in the House today that UH:1r'e i.s goi.ng to be son1e benefit for them, and I am glad to hear of i: h a 1: , M r' . !'i p ~1 a k e r· . T 1.o~ri l l. n o t s a y any more about seasonal. workers u nf.·"i.l . T hE~cH' i. n d(d:a i.l what. l·.:hEd r b~~ n~~f-L I~ s a r·e. Mr. Speaker, I 11.J:i. t. h ol1 1. s "' y i. n g , cannot si t down i.n g~:!rll'!t'i'll +:f'!r'rns, this gover·nrnent has beE:!n v~~lny No. 60 R3353

shortsighted. They have taken a look at our long-term interests in ·this Province and thrown them to the dogs "i.n or·der to ge ·t sowe short--term benefits. That may be bHnefid.al pol:itiec:llly, but l do not know know whether they will b (:~ n c,~ f 'i. 1-. pol. -L 1: i. c c:1ll . y or not . T h '~ t depends on how desperate pc-:oople <:~re for· 1~1ork. The,~ extt:!nt.: 1-:o I1J~l"i.ch our· pe:'oplc,~ hav~:) be~~1 ·1 di":i ven to d t'! s p E! r· r.l I: -j o n , b E! y o n d h d lJ --i. n g 1: u leav~~ the:!

Pl"ovince, U1c:~Y might appr·ov(,~ of .:'lny ·l-.h··i.nq l~l"i.l- .h l:hl:~ prospect of getting a few weeks IAHH' k s 0 1: h cl t-. 1·: h e y c d n p l.l 1~ F () 0 d 0 n thEdr· l.ab]es 1.uit :h a rnod:icum of r· (~ s p n c t. a n d d i. g n i t y . MR. SIMMONS : They are desperate but not crazy. MR. WELLS: They arE:~ desperate but bel-i.eve they ar·e crazy, not believe our people taken in by this. I do not and I do will be Mr·.

Spc,~aker·, :Ln t.er·ms oF its lasting adverse impact on this Pr·ouince, it i.s pr·obably the IAlor·s t agreement that any government since 1832 has e:~vt-H' nt~gotii:l+.ed for Hd s Province and they ought to hi:l.ng th~~-i.r ~Wt:lds -i.n shdlll(~!. T h a n k y o 1.1 , M r· . ~) fH~ d !<e:' r· . SOME: liON. MFMB F f~S : Hear, hE:!cH'! MR. SPFAKFR : ThE! hon . the:~ rnt::'mber for· Bonav::i .sti'.l Sou l·.h. MR. MORGAN : Mr. Speaker, having listened to t. h e 1 a s t s p (-:o a k c,~ r , i n p a r t ·i c u 1 cH' , I find it amazing that he would close IAii.t.h such a negative commt:!nt on such an importani issue.

I listened very carefully to what he had to say and I listened very L3354 June-:- 21, 1.988 Vol XL carefully to his points of argument as it pertains to the Constitution, and I say at the o u t set . , on reflect .in g b a c k , I w·i s h he had taken the same stand on the ltJ d t·. f?. r· R ~?. lJ (:~ r· s i o n i-1 c t a n d t h (~! l.l p p c->. r Churchill. recall case, he had used 1 .. he Sc:lniC:~ k-i.nd of ~:!nHn~~di :·ls rn <Hlcl the sarne sense of support for this Pro lJ ·i. n c l:~ 1: h c-:~ n "' s h c?. d o C::! s t. o d a y f o r· the railway. Rut no, Mr. Speaker, h1:~ Sl" .OOd ·i.l'l l:h:?.

COIIr•i:hOIISC:! and i'll"gued against OUI" Province and d<_:jr'\inst t:ht:! r· 'i.gh 1 ... s l-or· IAldl'.:c:·r· r·euersion i.n a VC::'ry ar·t:iculate and si .ICC(!:;~;I~ill. IJ.lr:\1), unfor··t- .u ndl'.:Hly For· NE:~IAl'found1and. SOME HON. MEMBERS : liecH', herH'! MR. MORGAN: No member· of t.h.is House can stand today and look at this whole issue cll'ld say somebody i.n this House is responsible for the diversion of t:h~?. tr·afftc of ti·H~ r·ai.liAlay to the~ road, of thE! freight from the rai 1 to l~.he r·oc:uJ. Look be~ck at ·it., Mr. Speaker.

Transportation is a tool of c->.conomi .c dLwelopln(-:ont anytAihE!r·e in the developing countriE!S today i.n t.h~?. world, and in our· CHAin developed country of Canada. Tr·r:-lnspor·tat:ton -Ls t:he tool of economic development! Let me pose o n e q 1.1 (:~ :; l: -i. o n : I s a n o t.l 1': d a t. ~'! d , narrow gclge railway a tool of c,~concJifri .c de::'V e::~J.op rrlf:~nt :in l·:h i.s Province anymore? SOMF l-ION. MfMRERS : No. MR . MORGAN: Mr. Sp~?.i:lklc~r, l::hE:~ anstAH'!Y' l:o t.hat question is quite obvious . It has not been for fifteen years or longer in this Province, fifteE!n year·s .~t lE:~ast.

Back in the days of the Moores' administration I SE:H'Vt'!d for· thr'C::H'! yc-:oar·s as Minister of Transportation and at that time No. 60 R33S4

lo~H~ couJ d ~C:H:! t.hE:~ dE:~misE:~ of thE:~ r·ai_li)Jay appr'odch·Lng, not by l·:he goVE:!nlnH:!I'Jt of the day, ei t.he:~r j n 0 t t i;UJJa or· hE! r· (,~ , b 1.1 t by t h 1-~ p Po pl. 1::~ who IJJE:H·e rnoving fr·e:~:i ght :in Ud s Pr·ov 'i.ncl'!, fr·orn 1--.hE~ opf~n-Lng gat(,~ to o u r· Pro v :i n c e at Port au x B a s q u e s , 0 t' f t' () rn c:-Hl y 0 Ul (! r· p iH' ·I~ 0 f 0 u r Province. Who chose to divert? The pl~!Opl.E:~.

Tl'wy cl·wsr:! to move thEdr fr·e:dght in ct more e:~fFicient IAJay r.u1d a rnor·e benefic.i.al !)Jay; they chose to moue it from the r a "i l t. o the r· o ad , b 1::~ cause , Mr· . Speake1~, road transportation is a more effective transportation systEnn. Today we haue a situation where UH,~ 1 .. :-i.bEH'al Par·t·y "i.s hur·t·ing badly on an :issuE:~ because:~ not t.oo long ago, fl-1r·.

SpectkfH', and this i.s fact, a certa:i n ITIC:'mber of the 0 p p o s -i_ 1.: :i. on s i~ o o d "i. n a c <~! r· 1.: .:1 i. n public pJ.ace and sa:i.d, 1 I c t~! r l .:1 i. n l. y h o p c~ my r· o a rl cl o e s n o 1-. g<,q paVE:!d. 1 And LIJhE:~n somebody a <; k ('! d I)J h lj ' h lc~ s i·l ·j rl ' I T F i. t d 0 (,~ s no·! gE:~t· paVE:'d, I <:trn assurE:~d of r•r.:! .. ··el.ecti on. Cf 1--.h~,~ PCs pr.wr.:> ifiiJ l"oad and sc,~nd down a good candida~e. do you know what is going to happen? He or she could get elected and I do not want that. I do not t.uant my roads pave:~d. 1 Thc-:!y stand 'i.n HH-:!

House:~ E:~very clay and play politics. They moan and groan and attack the gouernmE!nt. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. MORGAN: My good fr:i.end for· the Strait of B e 1.1 e I s l e s h o u 1 d b e p r· o u d t o d c1 y . I s uppor·ted him a number of tj rnes 1.uhc-:!n hE:! pr·esf~nt.E~d pE:~I::.i.l:-i.ons in thE?. HousE:~ asldng for· road pavement in th<,~ Rocld'i.cki--on .. _ E:ngJ.r-:!1·:! ~~r·c,~a. lir,~ rnoanE:~d and a-rtackE:Hl the governmE:~n·l~ s a y "i. n g , 1 Y o u d r· 1:~ i:l I" r· o 9 "' n t: .

Y o u IAJ:iJ.J. no-t· do anyt.i'dng fo1~ us, 1.uh:iJ.e 1..3355 Jun(~ 21., 1.9BB lJol XL keeping his fingers crossed that IAJl:~ ~~JOIJld no·l·:. ThHn ,~J.ong earn~~ !:hE! mc-:!mber· for· Bur·gE:!O --Bay d 1 Espoj_r. For· db0111~ f.itJc~ c:lc:'lys -Ln d rotAJ he,~ brought in petitions asking for I~Jhr:'l·l:? Tlnpi"OVc-?.rnen·l--.s 1--.o the'! Bur·gc'!O Road. At thE! samE:~ tiiTIE!, he !AlaS hoping and pr~ying we would not ansLIJE!r the praye•r of thE! pE!t:ition 0 f (: h (,~ p (~ 0 p l_ ~~ , b 8 C <.'1 US(~ ·.i. f !AlE! cl.:i. cl , he would be hurt pol:it:icalJy.

The Leader of the Opposition s c or· ~=! d .i t h o 1 n e at l:: h f~ c l o s C'! of h -L s debate today by sc~ying, 1 this rnr.ly be of political benefit to the goVE!rnrnE!nt. 1 That L\Jas his conCE!r'n r· i. 9 h t (: h t' 0 U g h 0 Ll 1:. h j_ S !AI h 0 1. (-?. S p E:' (~ C h on th:i.s new agreement, where we i'll"(,~ go"i.ng t:o SI:'!E:' 'liilOO Jn·i1l.:i.on spE:'nt in this Prov:i.nce as resu]-1: o F 1J c,~ s h?. r· d d 1J 1 s d g r· e lc~ lfH:! rd:. l~. o 1: a k E! care of all the road work in p J. '~' c r~ s 1~1 h f~ r· (;! p f~ o pl.

E~ h a t.J c-?. b E'' l:~ n E:~ating dust. for year·s, J.ongj ng and long i.ng l~or· gr·,:·wPl. r'odds i-:o be paued. That :i.s not going to do 1··. h (:~ I ·i. b I'! r· ;:t l. P i'l r· i·.y d n y g o o 1 I , ~-1 t" . Speaker, and the LE='cldel~ of Uw Oppn:;:i.l·.·ion ·i.s conc::.r·ned c\boul~. Lh<:'tt .. F' o r· (:! x "'m p l. :~ , IAH·:o rn e rl'l-: i. o n E:~ d 1:: h ~=! Labrador H:i ghway. Tenders IAJerE• Cc:lll.(o~d -l-:odc'\1).

Thl:~ RE~d Gay Ro61d, thE:~ Plum Poj nt towards Engle<:~ Road; Jdckson1s Ar·rn, l:hc,~ Bur·qc0o Road and all thE~se ar·eas ..... ther'E:' i. s n o p o i. n t g o i. n g o v C:! r· 1:: h 1:0 I--.L s t again -there is no question in rny 1ni.nd l::hat pE:~ople i.n these arEu'1s will say, What did we euer get from the r·dil.t.uay 'i.n our· ctrf:!c'.l? D-:i.d we get jobs? A few years ago they clos(~d clotAJn t:h~~ br'cHlth r·ai11AJay on the Bonavista Peninsula, closed it: doLIJn l:.h~~ Sdlrtf~ IAJay, Mr·. SpE:'al<c.;!r', they closed down the coastal seru-i.ce years ago. SOME liON. MF.:MBERS: He<-H', hear! MR.

MORGAN: No. 60 R331jS

The Leader of the Opposition said, Oh, well, there is no point ln using the rail passenger service as an argument that we have some constitutional rights here, because t:hey have replacc,~d L t wi l~h an ad~1quate bus system. Mr. S p c-?. a k e r· , the r· e 1..11a s an o u ~ c r y -i. n thj s Prov:i nee from St.. John 1 s to Por ·~ aux BasquE: 1S i:lg r:dnsl· : Uw bus sysb:!m. We,, had pE!tjtions :in ·this Housf:1, vo1 ~Hd on un<:'lnJrnotlsly by ;::~ll fll~:!rllbel" S oF thP House, against the r'E:'llloval of lhc-) r·.:t1 .l pd~;serlt.;Jt :'r' ~;C-?.r'v:lcE ~. but :U: tJJas don~~.

Why was i. t: d o n e ? 11 ::! c o:1 u s f:1 1·: h r'! r· l:1 1~1<'1 ~; n o c on s t it u t .i. o n i'l1 1. a 1~1 w h j c h s aid ·t hey 11111 :; i: 1r1cri. rd: ;·,1 in t: h .:·11- . ~; t'! r' tri . c: H . MR. S[MM~ : Who d~id it? MR. MORGAN: It !AidS done by cl l_'i,bf~rr.\1 Government . We fought it togethE!r as a party and a Pr·ovi.nce - the:1 ttJJO p;u·ties. MR. CALLAN : No, Joe did away with it . MR. MORGAN: No, this is the rail StH'Vi.ce. So to r:'lrgiH~ suddE!nly thdt a change undt:'r Ter ·m 31 Tc·H'IrlS oF Urdon -· MR.

SJ.Mr.IJONS : passenger t I'HH' ~~ -L s of the ThE!rC-! is and thc.d: is alJ thE:!rE:! is. SOME liON. r.IJFMR E RS: Oh, oh! MR. MORCAN : Mr·. Speaker, why !Alas there no ar·gument wht~n we lost our· coas L.-~1 boat service along the coast of N E:11..1lf o u n d l a n d , _ b o t: h t h P. 1\J o r t. h ~~ a s t Coast and the South Coast, a VE!ry impor't.i'lnt ser•uice which was ti'lken L3 3 ~6 June 21, 1988 Vol XL away under the same Term? wer·E~ tht~ Ar·gent.ta, Bonavi.sta Carbonear br·anch lines takE!n and not replaced?

Why and away My good fr -Lenrl over there for Twillingate, I can see him now lJE!t 'IJ much oppos t:1d and Fighting ve:1hernentJ.y as a ME>rrtbE!r of P a r 1 i r'llfl ~~ n ;·: , IAJ 'i. 1-. h a 11 NE!IJ.IfoundlandE!Y'S behind him, do no{: Cd k (:' r:11Aii''IJ our' pas'): :! ngf ~r- sf'! r·u ·L c r:•! It IAJas shown quite cJ.ear·J.y at l:.hat U .liW' r'll'lcl l·.h :~ hon . +:hf~ Hll'!lllbHr ' r~or· TtAiilJtngal :E! is atAiar·e of Ur:is, that ·. L h 0.! r· C! 1~1r-1 :; n n cons L i .. , .. 1.1 t·: .-i. on c1 1 argument which could be put FOl "l~lt.H'd l".hi.'\l: Ol.t.diAid IAJOU l.cl recognize. But suddenly, Mr .

Spc:1C:·1kt-:!r, +:.h(:' l.~'!i :\cler· of l".ht;! Opposition is going to ar ·gue thE! only d t' g 1.1 HJ(~ n l: h c-?. has to t l" y to offset this massive spending p r· o g r· a rn , 1.v hi c h ·'i, s g o ·L n g 1:: o b to?. of benefit to this governmE!nt. which i.s that Uwrc,~ hHs to br:~ a lega1 way under the Constitutjon to make sure they maintain the railway . Mr. SpeakE!r. thE! :issue is not: mt:l. ·.-i.nta.· .in·illg l:he r·allt~o.li:'liJ. lrJho wants to maintain it? It is gone! Last year, gt:d:U .ng 20 freight Mr. Speaker, pE!t' c~:!nt-. of movement in IJ.IE' all Pro v-i . n c e .

F o 1 1 r· I)(~ o"H' S a q 0 IJJC"! 34 p(:H' cent, and it has tJJe re t:he this had bE'( '!n C!)l'ni.nq 1970s . cl 01Alrl Nobody s :i. n c; r:~ t h f'! (:1 a r··ly is usj ng the l"ai1 s l:! r· lJ :i. !:C:1 1"1'11) 1110 r· c) • MR. YOUNG :

I) n '~ s 1'. h t-:1 m C.:! Ill b E! r· f n r· R u r g r::! o d 1 Espoir use it? Bay MR. MORGAN: The fact is the Government of Canada had and relieve public cost, it. No. 60 a right lo take over the Province of that but not l~_o rnr:.tintain R3356

Thf:~ only r.\ryl.llnent l:h<::~y <H'l~ usi.ng, Mr·. Speaker, ts, Oh, well, fifteen yt:~clr'S dOIJJJ'l t-.he t'l)o '\d IJlht,Hl i:hr~y g~;:~j ~ Hd.s 1'10-l~l h'.ight1.JCI.Y bu:ill : - I can see :U .: noiJJ, in UH~ n,,,x+ : h*''lllt~ HJon l·.h per· ·i od, bul J do7er·:. and pav'.i ng JnCl c h ·i. n ,,~ s o:1ll. o v P r· t h c~ pl."' c ~::' , r-1 n d a] 1 ovE~r the place on the rr·ans ··C<!ln<'ldi:l lhghJJldY s-i.gns up for· you to 1.uatch our fo1" a]] the e1cLi.viL:ies. SOME liON . ME'MB f~ RS: Hear, hE!ar! MR. MOI~GAN: Oh, boy! Great! And someonE! wjJJ. say, 'Yc,~s, but Mr·.

W<::1l.ls, l.l,~ad(·"r' of the Opposition and Leader of thr:' '-'i .b(:n·al Party in NPJAJfoundland, is concerned about one major thing.' 'WI'ldt is th<:lt:?' 1 HH~ movement of dangerous goods on the hi.ghway. 1 The-:! movt:}lllent of dangerous goods on the highway. M r .

S p ~~ <~ k 0. r· , h c-:~ -i. s c: on c C'! r· n c~ d <!I b o 1.1 1: t h f:~ b u r· d E:1 n o n t h ::i s P r o v i n c e of lflcd.nl<·l i.n ·i ng 1:hl:1 hi .ghlJld.Y, IAlhHn d1H'ir1g thE:! '6'~ Dr:ivE~, and I r·eca1l i. ~~ q 1 1 i. ·i: 1,1 c 1 c-:1 c:1 t' l. y ·!·. h r-~ I . c,1 d d f:! r· o f 'l"lw Opposition Pt:lrty has good r·~>.ason l::o sh :ly <;\l~ld.Y fr·om Uu>. Housl':' tJJhE:Hl this man stands to speak, bece1use he i s dl.ways afrc:1id of 1~1hat I cHII goj ng to say. AN HON. MFM8ER : About his s.:1l.ary? MR. MORGAN: No, no. Back in the mc-:!lnbc-:!Y' J.o~Jas man in Western lawyer.

Not only he was a bus'lnessman. AN HON. MEMBER: Yes? . MR . MORGAI\J: the days of 1965, a very prominent Newfoundland, a WCI.S he a lawyer, very prominent Yii:~s. indE:1E!d. He was very much U357 JllnP ?.l, 19133 Vol . XL ·i.ntJo l11 C'!d 'i.n b11s i rw s s. T I~Jould say, Mr. Speaker, he was a very SIJCCf:~!)!;Flll biJs ·i.nPssrnAn, dnd mor·e power to hj m. But do you recall 1 F·i .n·i ~;h l:ht~ Dt·J.'H~ ·i.n '()!:)? Do yo11 rc,~ca] 1 t.uhat we got for· the Dr·'.ive 'i. n 1 6 !:i? ~\1~~ <'~ l.l. s i_·\IAl 1~1h d I~ ~~H'! got: for· the DJ"jVH in '6r).

WE~ ~~ot a r· o .:-1 c:l 1~1 h "i. c h -i s s u b s t: "'n dar· d , second-class, the main reason bE:1-i.ng t:hc,1 contractor'S d.t thdt t-.irnc->. were incompetent . MR. PATTERSON : And cost-plus. MR. MORGAN: And !:he cost ... plus ;u·r·angeJnc ,~nts . The hon. gentleman shou]d know . HE~ J.o~Ja s l n v o J. v (:~ d JAd . ·(: h d coup l. 1:=> . SOME l-ION. MEMBERS : Oh! Oh! MR. MORGAN: Oh, yE:1s, a sharE:'ho]dE!I~ in COinp.:~nic,1~; IJlh i.ch l.o~H:~t'f~ ·:i.nvolved "i.n buiJdjng the highJAJay in 1965, IAlhE!I1 Mr ·. ~')JndlliJJood br ·ought <-1ll l:.h'i.s monc,,y j n. Mr.

Speaker, since 1965, JJJhE!I'l the r'Oi :ld I~J<'IS f·i.n :i.shed, l.o~H:! h1'\VE! had a substandard highway all across Hli. ~; P r· o IJ i n c e , r· i. g h {-_ f r o rn P o r· t a u x Basques, up until a fE!L\J YE!ar s ago when we werP successful ln arranging major funding for the Tr'i:HlS .. Cdni·ldd Htgh1Ald.Y. Up unt· .i.l that time, we had a substandard highway across our Province and, in most cases, we had to place restrictions on truck traff·i.c. Mr . Speaker, what I .~m saying is we have maintained that highway since then at a cosl: t:o the taxpayers of this ProvincE!.

NoJAJ i.f J~H:~ could ~:~ffor·d to rnal.nti:dn a substandard highway, very much s 1.1 b s +. ,,, n d r:H' d , f o t' f 'i. f., .. _ E:H! n y ear!> -· MR. FFFORD: ~.Jo. 60 R3357

How much is a railway car worth (inaudible)? MR. MORGAN: Now, gentlemen, lei-. rnc~ f-i.nish. We maintained a substandard highway for fifteen years, st. r·i. c t 1 1J Net;,Jf o u nd l. and Go vI:! r· nrnEHl t dollar's . We did that. Now suddc,~nly I;,Je S(~t'! d $'WS 1tdll ton program going into the T r· eHl s ··· C ;:-nl d d d I h. g h l~kl y ·i: o i rn p r' o v e ::it ·, to make it saf er'. We ar· e go tng 1-:o l·:1~r·i .n lH fJf '!Y' Cl'!nl: of i:hu h:ighLIIdY , U1e only pl"ovince :in (.') 1: l. ,_..,., t-. :i. c c Rt 'l a d <'I 1~rU : h 1. 8 p r-H' c 1'! n 1: huj nn:ing.

MS UF:"RGF : Th• :\ i. 1. s on f·. 0 fl () f I~J h i:l t I~J (:~ hdd bef CH'Cc!. MR. MORGAN : That is on ~op of what we had bE:!fore and what IAJI::~ did before. We are going l~o SE:'E! a rnoder·n, ai ~ least rnode!rn compared to 1965, when we had a substandard cow path bu:i]t across the Provtnce. That is what it was, d l.ii:t .le nar-r-otAJ two lane road. But we have maintained that old road at our cost. For fifteen or sixteen y ~::~ a t' s , t h E~ t a x p a y E! r· s o f Newfoundland totally covered that CO!;t.

NOIAI lAIC'! ar'e gE~l:t:i .ng i'l bi.g new road bui:i t and the Opposition say I 11 0h' hell;,) iH'e you go-Lng l:o ~H~ able to afford to maintain that r· o c'\ d o v c,~ r· 1·.·. h ~~ n c~ x t f ·i. f l: f~ c,~ n y ~~ t'l r' s ? How you go::i ng to be a

b) e to affor·d i-:o llk\·ird:,:·d .n i.l:? Yo11 h<:lt.Jr~ no monf:~Y to keE:~p thE~ hosp'itals go:ing? You c<:~nnot bu"i.l.d new schools. Mr· . Sp~->.dkE:H', U11,~ s:i.l:lli·\1: -i.on ·1.s, quite clearly, that the nJdi .nt:f:~nanco oU'gl .llrtf:~nl : i.s Ollt-. i.:h~~ IAJ::i ndot.u. It is d rE:'d h~:!rr·j ng. I llldt'l<c~i ··. l.oh; of I·H ~r·r··i.ng i-.hto~SP dt'lys, and it :is a rc,~d her-ring. 1,.3358 June 21, 1988 Vol XL SOME HON. MEMBERS: H e d r , hear· ! MR. MORGAN: Mr·. Spc,~r:~l<tn·, lt~t us go back to thE! point I made i ni U ally .

ThE! t'ai.li..IJdY ·.is no long1::'r' a l::ool IAih .lch can be used for our dE: 'VE!J.opmE !nt . II·: c.:~nnol :. be USE ~d ,:,nyrnor·r=• to i::i.e into any economic developm ent w e h c:-~ tJ P p r· o p o s (~ d o r· p l a 11 n E:! d f o r· l:: h e futUJ~e, none, so W E:~ hav e to ha vE! d n d rl :=! q u d L r'' 1: r' i"o"t n s p or· l··. d 1: j. o n s y s l:: u 111 . A r· tc~ no l: !"". h c,, p f:! o p l t~ -j n B 1.1 t' g t:• o en titled to a paved road?

Over h :=! r' t:! llll'! ~; .:-~ y y P s . (1 r· (,' f·: hE'! p ~=! o p] H jn t:.he Plum Po int rH 'E!a, up to Rodd:i.r:kt:on dncl Fngl .t,~('!, (c'nl ·.·it :l.P cl t.o a paved road? Sure they are. Are l:: h t;! pI"'

I) p l (~ 0 F 1·: h t" n 0 n d v "i. s t cl Peninsula entitled to a new hi.ghtlldiJ, l.inkc,~cl 1-.o H11 ->. Tt'r :Hls Canada Highway? Yes t.hE:~Y ar·e, and l:l'w y a r' e go ·i. n g '1: o g e t: i t . SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. MORGAN: Nobody mor·~~ vic iou sly oppo sed t-Jw closing of the Bonavista branch line of i-.he r·aoi.h1ay !:.han this rnan here, as the mE!mber for the arE! a . I opposed "i.t viciously here and 1n Ottawa at me etings of the T r· d n s pori-. d 1:. i. on Co rnrn t t. t. e (~ , in the minister • s office and, on one occasion, in t:h f'! Pr· -i.tne M-i.nisLc~r·• s off'ic e.

We fought it, but thE ! i.ss111:~ IAk\ S d*~<'~rl. HP l.ookf:!d iTJ(.:I str·aight in th e eye and said, 11 Mr . ri!Ot'tjdl'l, ·jn I)OIIr' oH'Io'i'l, I~Jho ·i!; Us-.i.ng thE ! ndJway? 11 I hfld to J.ook bf.lck <:Hld hon~'S 1-.l.y sdy, 11 T t~Jo bus i nE:! ssE:~ s . 11 That. was a 1.1 I co u J d r ·i. n rl 1~1 h!) l~lf~ I''(~ the BonavJst:a t'l.t'gi .IIIH ~n[: !~IdS constitutional o t h f:~ r· !< i. n d o f gone. Nobody m o tJ · i. n 9 f t' e -i. g h 1-. o v e r br·anch line. So the all. gone. The argument or any <H'9UiriE!I'li-., i.t 1/Jd S cl11. wanted to use the t' a i. 1.1~1 a y b e c: a u ~; E!

"i.t was ineffi c ient-: No . 60 R3358

in moui ng frE:~i.g h L Ml". Spf~•·lkr,~r·, on i:he i.ss1Jr~ of t·:h1,~ qur.wt:i.b E:~s of funds, there is no q u E:~ s t-: i. on . T h l-) r· c~ i. ·; Cl f i f l-. (,~ E:' n y ~,~·'I r· J"E:~opener c] ausc->.. The leader· of l:ht~ Oppo:;i.1·. ·i.on sho11ld not: l·.o:;:; ·that· k:i nd of a tl'd ng out, a rPopr'!l'll:~r· cl.di.JS!:~ e i.gh l: YE!•:-lr's do1~1n t-1'1(:! J"oad. J Hd nk I can quote ft'Oifl hi .s COiflniP.I11S. Jip Srri.d i 1: l,tlr.lS I mad e notE! of IAI h d t he had l o s;:-1y. Mdybu '[ cl· ·i.d not·:, br:!CiiiiJ~;f'! T: d:i d no l t:hj nk it IAJas not:. so .lmportan t -- USf