Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 14 (27th Legislature, 2nd Session)

27-2-14

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

ELECTORAL DIVISION ARTHUR ASSINIBOIA BIRTLE-RUSSELL BRANDON BROKENHEAD BURROWS CARILLON CHURCHILL CYPRESS DAUPHIN DUFFERIN ELMWOOD EMERSON ETHELBERT-PLAINS. FISHER FLIN FLON FORT GARRY FORT ROUGE GIMLI GLADSTONE HAMIOTA INKSTER KILDONAN LAC DU BONNET LAKE SIDE LA VERENDRYE LOGAN MINNEDOSA MORRIS OS BORNE PEMBINA PORTAGE LA PRAIRIE RADISSON RHINE LAND RIVER HEIGH'l'S ROBLIN ROCK LAKE ROCKWOOD- IBERVILLE RUPERTSLAND ST. BONIFACE ST. GEORGE ST. JAMES ST. JOHN'S ST. MA TTHEWS ST.

VITAL STE, ROSE SELKIRK SEVEN OAKS SOURIS-LANSDOWNE SPRING FIELD SWAN RIVER THE PAS TURTLE MOUNTAIN VIRDEN WELLINGTON WINNIPEG CENTRE WOLSELEY NAME J. D. Watt Steve Patrick Hon,Robert G. Smellie, Q. C. R. 0, Lissaman E. R. Schreyer Mark G. Smerchanski Leonard A. Barkman Gordon W. Beard Hon. Thelma Forbes Hon. Stewart E. McLean,Q. C. William Homer Hamilton S. Peters John P. Tanchak M. N. Hryhorczuk, Q. C. Emil Moeller Hon. Charles H. Witney Hon. Sterling R. Lyon, Q. C. Hon. Gurney Evans Hon. George Johnson Nelson Shoemaker B. P. Strickland Morris A. Gray James T. Mills Oscar F. Bjornson D. L.

Campbell Albert Vielfaure Lemuel Harris Hon. Waiter Weir Harry P. Shewman Hon. Obie Baizley Mrs. Carolyne Morrison Gordon E. Johnston Russell Paulley J. M. Froese Hon. Maitland B. Steinkopf,Q. C. Keith Alexander Hon. Abram W. Harrison Hon. George Hutton J. E. Jeannotte Laurent Desjardins Elman Guttormson D. M. Stanes Saul Cherniac k, Q. C. W. G. Martin Fred Groves Gildas Molgat T. P. Hillhous e, Q.C. Arthur E. Wright M. E. McKellar Fred T. Klym James H. Bilton Hon. J. B. Carroll P. J. McDonald Donald Morris McGregor Richard Seaborn James Cowan, Q. C. Hon.

Duff Roblin ADDRESS Reston, Manitoba 189 Harris Blvd. , Winnipeg 12 Legislative Bldg,, Winnipeg 1 832 Eleventh St., Brandon, Man, 2 - 1177 Henderson Hwy,, Winnipeg 16 102 Handsart Blvd., Winnipeg 29 .steinbach, Man. Thompson, Man. Rathwell, Man, Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg 1 Sperling, Man. 225 Kimberly St. , Winnipeg 15 Ridgeville, Man. Ethelbert, Man. Teulon, Man. Legislative Bldg. , Winnipeg 1 Legislative Bldg. , Winnipeg 1 Legislative Bldg,, Winnipeg 1 Legislative Bldg, , Winnipeg 1 Neepawa, Man.

Hamiota, Man. 406 - 365 Hargrave St., Winnipeg 2 142 Larchdale Crescent, Winnipeg 15 Lac du Bonnet, Man. 326 Kelvin Blvd., Winnipeg 29 La Broquerie, Man. 1109 Alexander Ave., Winnipeg 3 Legislative Bldg,, Winnipeg 1 Morris, Man. Legislative Bldg, , Winnipeg 1 Manitou, Man, 7 Massey Drive , Portage la Prairie 435 Yale Ave. W., Transcona 25, Man. Winkler, Man. Legislative Bldg. , Winnipeg 1 Roblin, Man. Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg 1 Legislative Bldg, , Winnipeg 1 Meadow Portage, Man. 138 Dollard Blvd., St. Boniface 6, Man. Lundar, Man. 381 Guildford St., St. James, Winnipeg 12 333 St.

John's Ave., Winnipeg 4 924 Palmerston Ave., Winnipeg 10 3 Kingston Row, St. Vital, Winnipeg 8 · Room 250, Legislative Bldg. , Winnipeg 1 Dominion Bank Bldg., Selkirk, Man. 168 Burrin Ave. , Winnipeg 17 Nesbitt, Man. Beausejour, ·Man. Swan River, Man. Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg 1 Killarney, Man. Kenton, Man. 594 Arlington St., Winnipeg 10 412 Paris Bldg. , Winnipeg 2 Legislat.ive Bldg., Winnipeg 1 I I �

THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2:30 o'clock, Friday, February 21 , 1964. Opening Prayer by Madam Speaker. MADAM SPEAKER Presenting Petitions. MR. J. E. JEANNOTTE (Rupertsland): I beg to present the petition of Roland Couture and others praying for the passing of

an Act to incorporate The Catholic Foundation of Mani toba, or La Fondation Catholique du Manitoba. MR. JAMES COWAN, Q. C. (Winnipeg Centre): Madam Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Traders Mottgage Company praying for the passing of

an Act respecting Traders Mortgage Company. MADAM SPEAKER: Reading and Receiving Petitions. MR. CLERK: The petition of Stewart Millet and others, praying for the passing of

an Act to Incorporate The Red River Exhibition Association. MADAM SPEAKER: Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees. MR . R. 0. USSAMAN (Brandon): Madam Speaker, I beg to submit the report of the Stand ing Committee on Municipal Affairs. MR. CLERK: Your Standing Committee on Municipal Affairs begs leave to present the following as their first report. Your committee met for organization and appointed Mr. Lissa ma:J. as Chairman. Yo:.tr committee recommends "that for the remainder of this session the quorum of this committee shall consist of_ six members. Your committee has considered Bills No. 3,

an Act to amend The Soldiers' Taxation Relief Act; No. 6,

an Act to amend The Municipal Boundaries Act; No. 7,

an Act to amend The Metropolitan Winnipeg Act; No. 8, .

an Act to amend The Local Government Districts Act; No. 15,

an Act to remove the City of St. Boniface, the City of Portage la Prairie and the City.of St. James from supervision of the Municipal BoJ.rd; No. 19,

an Act to amend the Winter Employment Act; and has agreed to report the same with out amendment. Yo..1r committee has also considered Bills: No. 9,

an Act to amend The Municipal Act; No. 10,

an Act respecting the provision of planning services to municipalities and agencies of the government and for the preparation of planning schemes for regulating the use and dev elopment of lands and buildings; and has agreed to report the same with certain amendments; all of which is respectfully submitted. MADAM SPEAKER: Notices of Motion. MR. LISSAMAN: Madam Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Hoaourable Member for Morris, that the report of the committee be received. Madam Speaker presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MADAM SPEAKER: Introduction of Bills. HON. STEWART E. McLEAN Q. C. (Attorney-General) (Dauphin) introduced Bill No. 44,

an Act to amend The Real Property Act. MADAM SPEAKER: Before the Orders of the Day I would like to attract your attention to the gallery where there are some 70 Grade 8 students from Beliveau School under the dir ection of their teacher Mr. Loewen. This school is situated in the constituency of the Hon ourable Member for St. Boniface. There are some 25 Grade 11 students from the Manitou Collegiate under the direction of their teacher, Mr. McGinn, and this school is situated in the constituency of the Honourable the Member for Pembina; 26 Grade 8 students from St.

Ignatius School under the direction of their teacher, Sister Electa Maria. This school is situated in the constituency of the Hon ourable the Minister of Industry and Commerce. There are ten Grade 7 students from Earl Grey School under the direction of their teacher, Mr. Friesen. This school is situated in the constituency of the Honourable Minister of Industry and Commerce. We welcome you here this afternoon. We hope that all that you see and.hear in this Leg islative Assembly will be of help to you in your studies. May this visit be an inspiration to you and stimulate your interest in provincial affairs.

Come back and visit us again. HON. DUFF ROBLIN (Premier) (Wolseley): Madam Speaker, before you call the Orders of the Day I think I have an announcement that may interest the House. A short time ago I was awaited upon by Dr. Cumming and Mr. Russell Robins and Mr. Sydney Halter, the members of the Metropolitan Corporation of Greater Winnipeg Review Commission, and I had the pleasure of receiving their report. There are not as yet sufficient copies for distribution. We are February 21, 1964. Page 325

(Mr. Roblin, cont'd). .. hoping to be able to make a full distribution to members of the House, to the press and the general public, on Monday and at that time to make available the contents of that report. I have just received it; I have not read it myself, but I will do my best to see that copies are available for the members at the earliest possible date. MR. GILDAS MOLGAT (Leader of the Opposition) (Ste. Rose): Madam Speaker, I want to thank the First Minister for his statement. Could he indicate to the House whether he has yet received such a visit from the Honourable Mr.

Michener and other members of that Commission? �· ROBLIN: I must tell my honourable friend I have not yet been so honoured. MR. MOLGAT: .......... poss ible that he might have booked an appointment for these honourable gentlemen, Madam Speaker. MR.' ROBLIN: No, Madam Speaker, I must rise in their defence. They have only been working some -- well hardly twelve months -- less that that -- and, while they haven't produced the report, they have given some indication to me that they are well advanced in their work and I would rather compliment them upon their diligence. HON. STERLING R.

LYON (Minister of Industry and Commerce) (Fort Garry): Madam S9eaker, before the Orders of the Day are proceeded with I should like to lay on the table of the House a Return to an Order of the House No. 8 on the motion of the Honourable Member for St. John's dated February 18t h of this year. MR. DOUGLAS L. CAMPB ELL (Lakeside): Madam Speaker, before the Orders of the Day are proceeded with I would like to make a correction in a report that appeared in one of yesterday's newspapers.

I refer to a report in the Free Press of Thursday, February 20th, this year with the heading, "Pay Hike Isn't - Campbell." I don't know that the heading has any particular significance. The sub-'heading says , "Molgat hasn't received voted increase" and I shall not read all of the press clipping but part of the fourth paragraph says this: "According to Mr. Campbell, Speaker Mrs.

Thelma Forbes also failed to receive a raise voted for her during the last ses sion of the Legislature." I would never have been so ungallant, Madam Speaker, to have left you out of any representations that I was making if I thought that you should be in cluded in them, but I did not make the suggestion that's attributed to me b.ere. I did not couple your name with the ones of those who had not received the increase that was voted for them last year.

As a matter of fact it was the Honourable the First Minister who brought your name into the discussion, and I at that time disagreed with him by saying that I was sure that the statutory bar did not exist in your case because of the fact that this legislation had been passed some years ago. HON.

MAITLAND STEINKOPF (Minister of Public Utilities) (River Heights): Madam Speaker, before the Orders of the Day may I advise the House that a memorandum explaining the federal-provincial centennial grants program has just been prepared and will be mailed to all municipalities and local government districts over the weekend. I have arranged for a copy to be handed to all of the honourable members here this afternoon. MR. MOLGAT: Madam Speaker, before the Orders of the Day, I'd like to address a question to the Honourable the Attorney-General. A news

article last week some time, or before, indicated that the Attorney-General, in replying to a question about one police force for all of the province, replied: "There's a good deal to be said for a central police force." In view of the statement, is the government contemplating es tablishing a provincial police force on the same basis as the Ontario provincial police? MR. McLEAN: Madam Speaker, the Attorney-General ought really to learn to keep his mouth shut. The answer to the ques tion is no. MR. MOLGAT: Madam Speaker, a subseq uent question then to the Minister.

I had under stood that the federal government, some days before this news release, had been in touch with my honourable friend suggesting that they might be prepared to consider some enlargement of RCMP work in the province. I think he was contacted. There was a news release on this from the federal Minister of Justice. Could my honourable friend indicate to me what action he intends to take? MR. McLEAN: I haven't received any communication, Madam Speaker. MR. E. R. SCHREYER (Brokenhead): Madam Speaker, I'd like to direct a question to the Minister of Municipal Affairs.

When a local municipal council is not just too sure of how to operate under a particular statute or regulation, and if they request assistance or enlightenment Page 326 February 21, 1964

(Mr. Schreyer, cont'd)... from the department, is it usual practice for the department to give them such assistance or enlightenment as to what a particular statute or regulation means? HON. ROBERT G. SMELLIE (Minister of Municipal Affairs) (Birtle-Russell): Usually the municipality will consult their own solicitor first. If he can't help them, or if they think there is something wrong with the legislation or the regulations, then usually they come to the de partment and we've always tried to help them. MR.

SCHREYER: That being the case, Madam Speaker, 1 would like to direct a question to the Minister of Education. 1 would like him to explain why it was that when the Winnipeg School Board asked for·soine guidance with respect to carrying out the provisions of the law regarding religious instruction, why the Minister dismissed their request so curtly -- the Minister of Education, Madam Speaker. HON. GEORGE JOHNSON (Minister of Education) (Gimli): Madam Speaker, could he be more clear with that question? Or maybe 1 should just take it as notice and determine what he has asked ... MR.

SCHREYER: Madam Speaker, 1 will clarify the ques tion. I notice, according to a newspaper report, that the Winnipeg School Board did ask the Minister of Education to give some guidance and clarification as to how best they could carry out the provisions of the statute respecting religious instruction, and according to the report the Minister was not inclined to do so at all, and I'm simply asking, in view of the fact that it is a common practice to give assist ance to local authorities from time to time, why the Minister did not do so in this particular case. MR. JOHNSON: .....

I answered the question put to me by the City of Winnipeg and followed the Act as it is written. MADAM SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. Address for Papers. The Honourable the Leader of the New Democratic Party. MR. RUSSELL PAULLEY (Leader of the New Democratic Party) (Radisson): Madam Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Inkster that an humble address be voted his Honour the Lieutenant-Governor for a Return showing copies of all correspondence between the Government of Canada and the Government of Manitoba respec ting the Canada Pension scheme as proposed by the present government of Ottawa.

Madam fpeaker presented the motion. MR. ROB LIN: Madam Speaker, we accept the ques tion with the usual reservations about the consent from Ottawa. MR. PAULLEY: Madam Speaker, may I be permitted just one word in connection with this correspondence. I'm referring to the numerous proposals of the government at Ottawa, not just the most recent one. MR. ROBL1N: Madam Chairman, if I may ask a question of my honourable friend. That raises a point. I had assumed here that what he was speaking about was what is known in common parlance as the LaMarsh scheme. If that is correct I have nothing to answer. MR.

PAULLEY: That is precisely it. Madam Speaker put the question and after a voice v0te declared the motion carried. MADAM SP EAKER: Order for a Return standing in -the name of the Honourable Member for Brokenhead. MR. SCHREYER: Madam Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the member for Seven Oaks that an Order of the House do issue for a Return showing the number of road or highway construction contracts let by the Department of Public Works in the year '63 that were let on an hourly rate basis; the name of the contractors involved in each case, and the nature, extent and area of the work; and (

c) the rate of payment or the total sum paid for each work project. Madam Speaker presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MADAM SPEAKER: Order for Return standing in the name of the Honourable the Member for Brokenhead. MR. SCHREYER: Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the member for Elmwood, that an Order of the House do issue for a Return showing (

a) the name of the succes sful tenderer for the constructionof the Hydro transmission line from Grand Rapids to the Rosser sub station; (

b) and with leave, if I might insert a few words -- a copy of the agreement or agree ments exclusive of engineering data, relative to this particular construction entered into between Manitoba Hydro and the succes sful tenderer. February 21, 1964 Page 327

Madam Speaker presented the motion. lVIR. STEINKO PF: .There are approximately 50 exhibits appended to the main agreement, and I presume these are what are referred to when you say the engineering data, and it will be ikay to accept the order on that basis. Madam Speaker put the question and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. ll!IADAM SPEAKER: Order for Return standing in the name of the Honourable Leader of the New Democratic Party. lVIR. PAULLEY: Madam Speaker, I beg to move , seconded by the Honourable Member for Inkster, that an Order of the House do issue for a Return showing: 1.

The number of needy persons disabled for employment for more than 90 days who have made application for Social Allowances either personally or by the municipalities on their behalf; 2. The number of the above who were granted social allowances; 3. Th<3 number of unemployed widows under 65 years of age who have received aid; 4. The number who were rejected from receiving dis ability allowances but who were given social allowances by the Provincial Government. I might say, Madam Speaker, the above questions are related to a letter issued by the Deputy Minister of Welfare about a year ago.

Madam Speaker presented the motion. lVIR. ROB LIN: Madam Speaker, the question seems to be in order by my colleague isn't here and there might be some points he would like to raise before we accept it. Could we allow it to stand until he returns? lVIR. PAULLEY: Yes, I appreciate the position. MADAM SPEAKER: Agreed? Order for Return standing in the name of the Honourable the Member for Brokenhead. MR. SCHREYER: Madam Speaker, I would like to have the leave of this House to with draw tho3 order so that I might submit it three weeks hence. MADAM SPEAKER: Has the honourable member leave? Agreed.

The adjourned debate on the proposed motio,n of the Honourable the Member for St. James, and the proposed amend ment of the Honourable the Member for Wellington, and the proposed ame.1dment to the amend ment of the Honourable the Member for Assiniboia. The Honourable the Minister of Industry and Commerce. HON. GURNEY EVANS (Minister of Industry & Commerce) (Fort Rouge): Madam Speaker, the future of the overhaul base at Stevenson Field has never been more in doubt than it is at the present moment.

There is only one thing that could remove doubt about the future, and that is to ensure that whatever facilities exist here are adapted as time goes on to take care of modern aircraft as they appear in service. This can be done.

The premises either exist for it now or can be adapted with only moderate cost, and the skilled personnel are pre sent in Winnipeg and this neighbourhood who either have the skills required now for modern aircraft, the jet aircraft and those to follow, or can probably be retrained for whatever new ·� responsibilities there might be more reasonably than perhaps any other work force in the country. I say the Federal Governm•3nt has got to stop either pussyfooting or being pushed around by one of its own employees.

There is too much at stake, as far as we are concerned in this part of the world and as far as Canada is concerned, for any other course to be con- templated. More than 2, 000 jobs in this area are affected, 800 of them direct in the overhaul base itself, and when the supporting industries. and suppliers and service industries are considered, the total number rises to at least 2, 000. Eight thousand people , including some 700 school children are supported out of the earnings of these more than 2, 000 people.

Twelve million dollars in consuming purchasing power -- that is, the personal disposable income -- is involved. Nine million dollars in retaii sales representing the purchase of food and clothing and drugs and the other necessities of life. Two million dollars a year for owner-occupied or rental housing accommodation. This is the measure of the importance of this matter to Winnipeg.

Not only that, but a matter of very mu·:Jh wider import is involved, and that is the whole regional development policy of the country, a policy that the present government at Ottawa has espoused, saying that there must be regional development of this country, and that whole policy is at stake because , in this area particularly, the industrial development of this region will Page 328 February 21, 1964

... (Mr. Evans, cont'd)... depend to a very large extent upon the pool of skilled labour that we have here, because we have no resource comparable to it as a base upon which to base the industrial development of this particular region. And we depend to a more than usual extent upon the skills of the aircraft industry of a single industry for a supply of skilled workmen upon which our iPdustrial expansion can take place. Our situation is much like Pittsburgh who built great industries upon the pool of skilled labour that began to cluster about the steel industry and was expanded from there.

This labour pool around Winnipeg in the aircraft industry is unique. It has had intense training and years of experience to develop them to a skill, and I might say further, a sense of respons ibility well beyond the degree to which these qualities are required in the average workman. Now I'm deeply sorry that the Liberals have decided to play politics with this matter of the TCA base. Manitoba has presented a united front at Ottawa in its requests for attention to this particular problem, and in every case we have presented a united view.

The Leader of the Opposition accompanied the first delegation that we took as did the Leader of the NDP. Then, he didn't-- my honourable friend corrects me on that. He discussed the question of coming without an official invitation , and did not come ... , but the Leader of the Liberal Opposition did accompany the delegation and appeared with us. MR. MOLGAT: C01.1ld I ask the Minister a question? Is it not true that the government attempted to stop me from going on that delegation? MR. EVANS: This is not true, entirely not true, because when my honourable friend appeared at the aircraft I welcomed him.

When we arrived in Ottawa I inveted him to attend the meeting that we had before the delegation went there; the night before I presented him with a brief at the same time that I presented briefs to the other members of the delegation; I wel comed him on that occasion, and he went with us .and helped us to make our presentation. MR. MOLGAT: Madam Speaker, is it not true that the union representatives who were inviting people to go on the delegation were specifically told not to invite any of the NDP and myself, and on that basis telephoned me and gave me that information that they had obtained from the Minister?

MR. EV ANS: That is not correct, because .... MR. MOLGAT: It certainly is. MR. EVANS: My honourable friend was not invited as a leader of an official political party. The delegation was formed and consisted of the membership of the Manitoba Trans portation Commiss ion, and other individuals were added in their personal capacities. The second delegation that went -- there was an invitation extended to both parties officially to attend, and both parties accepted.

But now we have speeches in which the Leader of the Opposition attempts to place some responsibility or some blame upon me or upon this government for the situation that exists. He makes reference to the Throne Speech as being critical. I have re -read the reference in the Throne Speech. I can •t see anybody that they were critical of, and then my honourable friend from Assiniboia stands up and says that wal I may have done something quite lately about this thing that really is four years too late, and why didn't I do some of these things.

Well, my honourable friend should have done some of his home work, because this entire delegation and movement to represent this point of view and to try to stop the move of the overhaul base was very largely my own pers onal creation, and I propose to go ahead and give him some details of the work that I have done and that the government has done.

I think it's most unfortunate that my honourable friends across there should be trying to find, in my opinion, a scapegoat, so that they will have somebody to point a finger at when their friends at Ottawa turn down the reasonable demands of this part of the country for the retention of the base here, and to try to find a fall guy, if you like,·· to blame for what they greatly suspect or perhaps know is going to happen with regard to this particular action.

My honourable friend across the way.as ks: "Well, what about the government action the last three or four years?" I would ask, what action has been proposed from that quarter of the House that has not been taken? What did the Liberal Party advocate last year that wasn't done? Or the year before, or the year before that? Or indeed, what co�structive sugges tion have my honourable friends in that quarter of the House made at any time with respect to this? And I would ask my honourable friend from Assiniboia when he appeared in the matter up until the February 21, 1964 Page 329

(Mr. Evans, cont'd)... time he spoke the other day. I don't recall him, as the representative of an area of the city that was deeply concerned with this, paying any attention to the matter. I don't recall seeing him at any of the delegations when we either had meetings or during the crowds when we were seen off, or at any other time appearing in this matter; and now he under takes to be critical of the role that we are taking. MR. STEVE PATRICK (Assiniboia): Madam Speaker, on a point of order, I would like to tell the Honourable Minister that we did take objections through the St.

James Chamber of Commerce in St. James, and I have used this, as a matter of fact during the election campaign a year ago, and at the same time I don't believe that any member of the government did make any mention of it. MR. EVANS: My honourable friend did not attend my meetings or he would have heard very considerable mention of the whole matter.

Well, I can say this, if my honourable friends will consult the people most closely con cerned, the workers themselves living in his own constituency, I think he will find that they have some opinion that perhaps the government has undertaken a very considerable amount of work to try to sus tain this base here, and in fact when the Maaitoba Federation of Labour called on the government quite recently and presented us with their brief, they wera good enough to volunteer.

They 'remarked in their introduction about as follows: "that we wish to commend your government for its interest and good work in its efforts to keep the TCA Maintenance and Overhaul base in Manitoba." And I shall try to stifle my blushes by going on to read the rest of the sentence, which says: And special word of commendation to the Honourable -Gurney Evans and his department." And I read that because the department is mentioned and not myself.

"And to you, sir" -- he was addressing the Premier -- "for the great interest that you have shown in heading up the last delegation to Ottawa." Well, I'm going to not rest my case upon that, but I'm going to tell my honourable friends that I was the one who succeeded in breaking through the wall of silence that had been raised by TCA in this matter. They had been silently <tnd, I think, deceitfully extracting workers from the Winnipeg Overhaul base and gradually bleeding it to death, while all the time giving vague assurances that thi.s, in fact, was not happening.

This has been repeated so often I think it's generally accepted here. Well, I'm much indebted to my honourable friend from Winnipeg Centre, Mr. Cowan, who from time to time learned of individuals who were being moved east, and he kept coming to me with these ......... , and other members of the Assembly did as well. And so I began to take up the task of finding out whether in fact these moves were taking place despite the assurances, and in March 11, 1960, I made my first representation to the then Minister of Transport in Ottawa, Mr.

Hees, and I received a general reply from him giving me the same usual assurances, which undoubtedly came from the TCA management. Well, I couldn't understand that, so I wrote back again on June 10, 19 60, and requested an appointment with the Minister, an appointment which I subs equently kept, and �fter those events, on August 8th I received a further letter from Mr. Hees saying that he would talk to Mr. McGregor again; and then on AL\gust 16, 1960, Mr. Hees wrote to me that the base will be moved, and that was the first time that we had a breakthrough and exposed the scheme of Mr.

McGragor to move this base secretly and without rousing the proper reaction which indeed did follow. There are other times upon which I called this matter to the attention of the House. I immediately summoned the Manitoba Transportation Commission and laid the matter before them, and it was from that point that the delegations were created and the three delegations were taken to Ottawa.

Well, I might say that at the time this situation was exposed, the first task that had to be accomplished was to arouse people in Winnipeg, first of all to the gravity of the situation, and second, to a belief that something could be done about it. If you had asked the average person in Winnipeg, or almost anyone, whether or not there was any use in taking these delegations East, they would have said, "certainly not, " that the thing was an accomplished fact and all we had to do was to wait for it to happen.

Nevertheless, the Manitoba Transportation Commission, with the additional membership of the mayors and reeves of the 19 municipalities of Greater Winnipeg, did take up this task, and they took it up very vigorously, with the results that we know about. The first brief, of course, was made to the Diefenbaker government, and exposed the Page 330 February 21 , 1964

.. (Mr. Evans, cont'd) . . . deliberate deceit and trickery of TCA, and I use those words deliber ately. The federal government froze the staff pending the study, and at the time the staff was thought to be frozen -- that we got assurances from the government at that time that it would be frozen -- the staff was 997 in number, and the numbers are now 800, so one can see how effective the freezing was. The second brief was made to the Pearson government, and the Prime Minister gave assurances in general terms that the numbers of people there would be maintained.

The third brief, on December 12 , 1 963, at that time the Prime Minister repeated this statement that he .made· in Parliament on November 22, 1963, that for at least as far ahead as planning extends, that is, for at least ten years, the Winnipeg facilities will continue to be used. The Minister of Transport said that I indicated that I expected the em ployment level would be maintained or even increased beyond the present low level. He said that during the debates of the House of Commons November 26th, which will be found on Hansard at Page 5104. At this point, something new entered the picture.

Up to this time, TCA had been ignoring the expressed \Vish of the government, but from now on the TCA management began flatly to contradict the Prime Minister of Canada after the Prime Minister had said that the president and officers of the TCA appeared before the Sessional Committee on the Railways and Airlines, and here are the words that are quoted from the proceedings of that meeting: "There will have to be a certain strength maintained at Winnipeg, which we seem to have established at 60 0, not the 800, which was the strength at the time that the Prime Minister gave his statement.

As long as we are operating 34 Viscounts, this study goes to 1973. As to what happens after that, I would hope that the number of Viscounts beyond 1973 would drop quite sharply. I thought it would happen in 19 66 , but as long as we have a substantial number of Viscounts, we must keep the base in operation in Winnipeg. But, if in 1974 or 1975 the number of Viscounts in service-., or even before that time -- drop into the 20's, we would certainly have to shut down Winnipeg and offer transfers to other places in the company to experienced personnel.

And those who accepted would be transferred, those who decline transfers would be asked to leave. Those were the proceedings in this committee. The Minister of Transport tried to explain that statement away during a visit to Winnipeg on January 17t h last. On the occasion of the opening of the new airport terminal, the Minister of Transport stated that the testimony of the TCA management had been misinterpreted. Well, I've read those proceedings word by word, and there's not the slightest room for misinter pretation of what was said. And now to cap it all, Mr.

McGregor says that he has had no dir ective from the government, in spite of the fact, as my honourable friend has pointed out, that we've received assurances from the Prime Minister of Canada that he would convey to Mr. McGregor the assurances that he had given to the delegation when we met them in Ottawa. But even in spite of that, surely the Minister of Transport is in touch with the head of the TCA, and surely the head of the TCA can read a newspaper. I say this , that C. D. Howe would have known what to do, because he said explicitly what he would do in circums tances of this kind.

He said explicitly what he would do in exactly this situation, because concerning the freezing of em ploy ment at Winnipeg, he refers -- and I refer to the minutes of the proceedings and evidence of the Sessional Committee on Railways and Shipping of April 5, 6 and 7, 1949 : "To allay widespread and justifiable fears of a severe cut-back of TCA, the late Right Honourable C. D.

Howe, Federal Minister then responsible for TCA said" -- and these were his words reported in the minutes: "I think if an attempt was made by the directors to move the overhaul department or accounting department after the remarks of the president, I would have good reason to put a veto upon these suggestions. I say that, as an added assurance to those em ployees who are fearful of having to move, they need have no such fear." Well, there was no doubt in C. D. Howe's mind who was boss, either the people of Can ada, or one of their em ployees, and I think C. D. Howe was right.

There's a clear divergence between the wishes of the federal government and the actions of the TCA management. TCA agrees with the federal government's wishes and directives only when the agreement suits TCA' s purposes. The national interest which TCA is expected to serve is almost entirely overlooked. I think this is another mf(jor factor in the situation tq which we should pay some attention. ' Crown corporations , including Trans-Canada Air Lines, are established to fulfill February 21 , 1964 Page 331

(Mr. Evans, cont• d) . . . special requirements which are considered to be uf benefit to the public at large. Trans-Canada Air Lines was incorporated to provide Canada with a national air system. It was expected to operate at losses in some regions, and today important links · in the TCA are maintained at substantial losses, and there's considerable detail in this in the com mittee's report that I have referred to before. In the interest of national unity and develop ment, these losses were subsidized by the National Treasury. Further, TCA •s competi tive position is protected as a matter of national policy.

Operating under public subsidy and protect ion, TCA has developed as one of the major airlines of the world. It could not have developed to its present status without the public assistance which it is still receiving. In the course of its development, TCA has become an integral part of many communities in Canada. Its management, however, has lost sight of its original objectives to the extent that it is openly defying the federal government and the public who support and protect it.

The Dixon -Speas study, however, important as it may be, and the controversy over its release are only incid ents that provide another demonstration of the arrogance which TCA displays to the Canadian public and to the Federal Government. A full public enquiry into the conduct of the management of Canada's national airline and the entire matter of Winnipeg's base is required. The Prime Minister and the Federal Govern ment have a responsibility to the people of Canada to convene such an enquiry.

Meanwhile TCA activities in respect to the phase-out of the Winnipeg base should be halted by the Fe:.ieral Government without delay and stabilized until such time as a public enquiry into the TCA management is completed. Now, having said those things, I must turn to the amendment that was moved by my hon ourable friend from Ass iniboia, and I find myself in a difficult position here because I agree with almost all that was said in the amendment.

There are one or two items in it, however, which I find imposs ible to support and I'll give you my reasons for it; but this is an amendment to an amendment, and it's not possible for me to further amend this particular motion and so I must· vote against it, and I would like to discuss the one or two items that I find I cannot support. For example , item No. 2 speaks of "imme diately accept the copy of the Dixon-Speas Report offered to it by the Federal Government some months ago, for further analysis and study. " We have received no offer of a copy of the Dixon-Speas Report.

There was a reference in the press, I be live, to a possible offer of a copy to be sent to us in confidence, to be allowed to be read and returned. The offer was not made officially and if it had been I would have been forced to decline an offer which would thereupon have gagged me so far as referring to the matters contained in th at report were concerned. MR. MOLGAT: ... ... permit a question? MR . EVANS: Yes. MR . MOLGAT: Did he not receive personally an offer of this report? Did he not make that statement himself at a meeting of the delegation prior to going to ottawa in December? MR.

EVANS: I don't recall what statement my honourable friend may be talking about but whether or not-- there was no official offer, there was certainly nothing in writing, and when this reference came up in this resolution I tried to recall whether I had seen it in the press or how it came to me, but it doesn •t matter I think, because I would have to say this, that if a copy of the report were offered to me in confidence it would not be possible for me to accept because that would gag me on the subject.

I would not be able to refer to the report without violating a confidence, and so it was not possible for us to accept it. So I cannot accept the resolution in that particular. Item No. 4 of the resolution calls for a provincial enquiry such as was mentioned by the Prime Minister in Ottawa.

This would not be suitable because it would not be within the competence of a provincial enquiry to compel the attendance of the officials of TCA or those who had compiled the Dixon-Speas Report or any of the papers in the possession of either TCA or naturally of the Federal Government, and so a provincial enquiry would not be effective for the purpose and could be defied just as readily by TCA as the TCA is defying the Federal Government today.

Item No. 5, is to give consideration to the advisability of establishing a commission or committee made up, if possible, of representatives of the Government of Manitoba, the Government of Canada, the murJ.icipalities concerned and other interested bodies, and to list the objectives below. Well we already have this body because -- I don't know that my honourable Page 332 February 21 , 1964.

;., (Mr. Ev ans, cont''.d) ... friend is aware of this, that the delegations that went to Ottawa were delegations of the Manitoba Transportation Coli' mission to which were added for the purpose the mayors and reeves of the municipalities affected and others, and onto this body we could add any additional personnel. They already have studied the matter. There are already a large body of papers in that connection and the staff are acquainted with the matter, and con sequently it would be far better to adapt that particular organization, the Manitoba Trans portation Commission, than to create a new body.

So for these reasons -- not that I differ with the object of the resolution itself, because it does nothing more than perhaps amplify the previous one. It contains material that is all to be found within the briefs, with the exception of the items that I have noted. I have no option but to vote against the amendment to the res olution for the reasons that I have mentioned. MR . MOLGAT: Madam Speaker, I wonder if I could ask a question of the Minister. Does he deny that he was offered a copy of the Dixon-Speas Report? MR.

EV ANS: There was no offer to the Manitoba Government by the Government of Canada of a full copy of the Dixon-Speas Report. MR . MOLGAT: Madam Speaker, is the Minister telling me that he didn't get an offer from Ottawa perso nally that he would get this Dixon-Speas Report if he was willing to accept it? MR. EVANS: Perhaps my honourable friend will tell me who made the offer and on what " occasion. MR . MOLGAT: Yo•� answer the question. MADAM SPEAKER: Are you ready for the question? MR . LAURENT DE SJARDINS (St.

Boniface): Madam Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Member from Assiniboia, that the debate be adjourned. Madam Speaker presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MADAM SPEAKER: The adjourned debate on the proposed motion of the Honourable the Member for Seven Oaks. The Honourable the Member for Elmwood. MR . STAN PETERS (Elmwood): Madam Speaker, when I adjourned this debate I adjourned it for my colleague the Member for Seven Oaks, but if he speaks now he would be closing the debate so if anybody else wishes to speak they are privileged to do so.

MADAM SPEAKER: Does any member wish to speak before the Honourable Member closes the debate? The Honourable the Member for Seven Oaks. MR. ARTHUR E.

WRlGHT (Seven Oaks): Madam Speaker, one of the reasons that I introduced this resolution was because of the many complaints or suggestions from my con stituents, and I must admit that the Honourable Member for Wellington certainly did a good job in the preparation of his speech, and I thank him for that, but it took me quite a while to find out whether he was for me or against me because he did mention on several occasions, and he quoted experts to prove, that it might be poss ible that certain harm was beil).g done to our children, and although I have a high respect for higher education, I still believe that 'When it comes to knowing what's good for childrenithink that perhaps the mothers and fathers do have a little knowledge here too.

For instance, I might say I spent a couple of winters out at the University in workers ' educational classes studying child psychology when my children were small and I did learn much there. I did learn, too, that there is great disagreement among the psychologists. · You know, Madam Speaker, we have the experts telling us on TV that when you hear the commercials they're not any louder. They offer all sorts of scientific argument to prove this, but after all, we were given the blessing of hearing and it's pretty hard to convince many of us who listen to TV that it isn't louder.

It's certainly objectionable, no matter what they say with their scientific approach to the matter.. The honourable member said that he felt that the TV industry was being persecuted today, and this was certainly not my intention in bringing in this resolution. The intention was to throw some light and have some discussion on a subject that I think is of paramount importance to parents today.

I have a great respect for the television industry and I am particularly proud of our CBC because, from the stand point of educationa1 advantage, I think it's second to none; and it i� because of this top place in the home and its ability to do good or evil that I think we should be discussing it. The honourable member quoted Walter Lippman as saying -- and it might not hurt to refer to that February 21 , 1964 Page 333

(Mr. Wright, cont'<;l). .. again. He said that Waiter Lippman stated: "The re can be no real doubt that the movie and television, and the comic book, are purveying violence and lust to a vicious and intolerable degree." I think that's right, but he said that psychiatrists maintain that not much harm is done to the child if the child is well adjusted, if the child comes from a home where harmony prevails; and I'm inclined to agree with him. I think that this is true but I don't think we should be making the job of parents more difficult by having to sort of counter act the various types of violence shown on TV.

I think that , as I said before, we must respect the wisdom of parents in deciding what's good for children and, as the honourable member has agreed with me very, very much of what is shown on TV, especially during the supper hour, is certainly not considered good for children. In fact, I think that in _the last week or so a program called "Outer Limits" has been switched from the supper hour to a later hour.

So it wasn't with the idea, in submitting this resolution, that I wanted to give it any undue pub licity, especially adverse publicity for the TV industry, because as I said before I have quite a respect for the ability of TV to be a teaching medium; but I think that in the everyday com mon sense of people who are trying to raise children much could be done to time programs.

I wasn't advocating censorship but I think there is a lot of senseless timing, and as I said in my original speech in opening this debate, one of Walt Dis ney's finest nature films was shown at 11 o'clock at night, and this is the sort of thing, despite all the opinions of the psychiatrists who claim that children are not being impressed adve rsely by television, I think that we have to respect the opinion of parents. It was with this idea that I submitted this resolution and I solicit the support of the House in just merely asking the Board of Broadcast Governors to consider the problem of timing.

Madam Speaker put the question and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR . PAULLEY: The ayes and nays please, Madam Speaker. MADAM SPEAKER: Call in the members. The question before the House, the proposed motion of the Honourable the Member for Seven Oaks ,

Whereas children today spend many hours per week watching television and

whereas this mediLtm of entertainment is constantly subjecting the plastic mind of youth ..... A standing vote was taken, the result being as follows: YEAS: Messrs. Alexander, Barkman, Beard, Bilton, Campbell, Che rniack, Cowan, Evans, Froese, Gray, Groves, Guttormson, Hamilton, Harrison, Hillhouse, Hutton, Jeannotte, Johnston, Klym, Lissaman, McDonald, McGregor, Martin, Moeller, Mol.gat, Patrick, Paulley, Peters, Schreyer, Shewman, Shoemaker, Smellie, Steinkopf, Tanchak, Vielfaure, Watt, Wright, and Mrs. Morrison. NAYS: Messrs.

Baizley, Bjornson, Johnson, Lyon, McKellar, McLean, Roblin, Seaborn, Stanes, Strickland, Weir. MR . CLERK: Yeas, 38_; Nays, 11. MADAM SPEAKER: I declare the motion carried. MR . MOLGAT: Madam Speaker, the Leader of the House h2s been defeated in the House. Is it his intention to resign. MR . ROBLIN: . . . . . . democrats. I do what the majority say and the majority insist on my keeping my present office. MR . MOLGAT: On the contrary, the majority of this House has just voted against my honourable friend. MR . ROBLIN: Ah, but I listen to the voi<;:e of the people. MR .

PAULLEY: In keeping with the tenor of the remarks of the Honourable the First Minister that he believes in democracy, then the sponsor of this resolution can exr::ect to receive a copy of a com munication to the Board of Broadcast Governors very shortly, carrying out the intent of this resolution. MADAM SPEA KER: The adjourned debate on the proposed resolution of the Hono.trable the Member for Seven_Oaks, the Honourable the Member for Hamiota. MR . B. P. STRICKLAND (Hamiota): ... ... the indulgence of the House to have this matter stand. MADAM SPEAKER: Agreed.

The adjourned debate on the proposed motion of the Hon ourable the Member for Carillon. The Honourable the Member for Fisher. MR. EMIL MOELLER (Fisher): Madam Speaker, for the last year and a half we have heard so much about sugar. Sugar --a known thing for sweetening, but how bitter can it be at Page 334 February 21 , 1964.

(Mr. Moeller, cont'd)... times to one group or the other. One time it's the producer, the next time it's the consumer. Since beet growing has started in Manitoba and sugar refining in the year 1940, the Manitoba beet growers have lived a rough life. When fathers contracted more acres and sons and daughters had to do the work, and hard work, and the wives of these beet growers got so far then said, "W ell, we're going to divorce our husbands. There's just no end. Trying to produce something sweet but we always get the bitter end.

There wasn't . enough money in growing beets, but things. change, and for the last year and a half the price has risen, not due to Manitoba beet growers. It's the world market that controls these things. For a good number of years the Canadian Beet Growers .As sociation has tried to get a national sugar policy for this country, to stabilize the price so it wouldn •t be any hardship on beet grower nor consume r. We only produce about 14 percent of the sugar consumed in Canada. Eight-six parcent are importe d.

Most nations have a sugar agreement with other countries, but not all sugar is under an agreement, and that sugar that's loose is on the world market and it's usually called home less sugar, and this small percentage makes the price just like the 15% of hogs that come to our public market makes the price for the balance. So after all this time, the beet growers didn't receive anything from the Federal Government. The only thing that was that we came under the price stabilzation with all sugar beet growers. This isn't too bad. It's not too good either. It fluctuates.

But when the prices rise there is no stabilization and the consumer has to pick the bitter end. Why can •t we produoe all the sugar in Canada we need? Or, we'll say about 50 percent to be modest. In the western part of our nation, in B. C. the cane refinery gives B. C. enough sugar. .Alberta has two big factories which supply .Alberta with their sugar, about 33 parcent of what is there is exported from .Alberta to the sister province of Saskatchewan, but about 8 percent has been coming to Manitoba. Manitoba didn't produce eno;�gh sugar before, not until this last year, and our sugar came from the east.

Our sugar came in at a preferred freight rate and at times when we had a little extra here in this province and tried to export it to Ontario we have to pay double the freight for our sugar going east, than sugar coming from the east. Are we measured in this country with two different kinds of sticks ? What is wrong with our Federal Govern ment? Can •t we get anything what is good to us all? Then the Member for Carillon, he made a very good speech and I agree to most of it, but not quite.

He said, "I have been convinced that there would be many advantages to the people of this province if a second sugar factory could be established in Manitoba." What would that d:> to the existing beet grower, to the existing factory? This year we have an over-production in Manitoba, and maybe 100, 000 bags of sugar have to �e carried over to next year. If we try to put our sugar into Ontario today and the prices should become lower again, what will the cane refinement do to us?

They might choke us, and it's the first time in the history of Manitoba beet growers that sugar is cheaper in Manitoba than in the east, but people usually don't realize these things. So there we go on and on. I fully agree, if it was possible that we have another factory in Manitoba; there is something in it; more industry, more work for our labour; like last year 1, 300 of our Manitoba Indians were em ployed in thinning and hoeing sugar beets. Their take home pay was $1 91, 000. Then they were employed during the sugar campaign at the factory and those are not the only ones.

It's all th<3 o:he rs ...... it's the line, it's the bags, and anything that's conn•3Cted with it that's used in Ma:1itoba. It's a good industry, but with the freigh� rates against Manitoba it's just not possible if sugar prices should come lower, that we can afford another sugar factory. Therefore, if the sugar stays high we build another factory, maybe one factory would be strangled and the other one, the new one would commit suicide before she gets going. I'd like to make one correction in my honourable friend's remarks there when he said the sugar content went as low as 11 percent.

I state that the sugar per centage was 16. 9 average so that's not very far off from the 17 that was estimated. .And I'd like to make an amendment to the motion -- I beg to move , seco·.1d-ed by the Honourable Member for Dufferin, that the resolution be amended by adding after the word 'Manitoba' in the last line thereof, the fo!lo·wing words -- "as soon as accessible markets make such a factory economica lly feasible. 11 Madam Speaker presented the motion. MR . J. M. FROESE (Rhineland): Madam Speaker, I beg to move, secoc1ded by the Honourable Member for Brokenhead, that the debate be adjourned.

Madam Speaker presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. February 21, 1964 Page 335

MADAM SPEAKER: The adjourned debate 0�1 the proposed motion of the Honourable the Member for Emerson. The Honourable the Member for ·Turtle Mountain. MR. P. J. McDONALD (Turtle Mountain): Madam Speaker, I rise at this time to speak to the resolution placed before us from the Honourable Member from Emerson.

I certainly was very, I might say happy, to hear him get up and say that once upon a time we had dis crimination probably in roads and what have you, but this is no longer the case, because we have this Minister out at least three different times to spend some time in that community , and I think I'll have to have a little heart-to-heart talk with my Honourable Member the Minister of Public Works , to see if I can't get him to spend a little bit of that time in that south-western part of the province that I represent.

Madam Speaker, the resolution that has been presented to us refers to S'3Condary highwa ys, and I couldn't help but feel that .probably the member was anticipating or hoping what might come out of the Michener report; and we all know that this report will be coming up reasonably soon and look forward to what it has to offer. In referring to the secondary highways being taken over by the government, while the province has taken over each year we have taken over some additional roads that it has been felt was too heavy for the municipalitie s.

Actually the miles have declined that are now secondary.highwa ys, because the government has taken over more than they have added, so I think that they have realized and recognized the responsibility that they have to take a look at this time. I would like to point out to the hono..trable member, that on secondary highways, he was mentioning that local gov ernment only have one source of income.

Well, I believe that there is more than one source of income because, taking secondary highways for instance, the government pays 75 percent of the construction and also 75 percent of the upkeep, and I'm sure that we have to consider that this is an income. When it comes to market road systems, any municipality can enter into an agreement on a 40-60 basis and get up to $1 0,500.

In addition to this, there's grants for education, there's grants for special projects and welfare, and I think that there isn't any doubt that we can be looking forward to a complete report coming from the Michener report on gov ernment and financial taxation for the municipalities. I was certainly pleased when I heard the member refer to the secondary highways , but I don't think it's broad enough for us to accept just the secondary highways.

Take for the muni cipality that I represent, this would be of no help to us at all, because there's no secondary highways in the province; and based on these few reasons, I feel that I couldn't support this resolution. MR . JOHN P. TANCHAK (Emerson): ...... question. One of the reasons given by the member was he can't support the resolution because he has no secondary highways in his area. What about considering the rest of the province? MR. McDONALD: Well, Madam Speaker, I think that this is something that I suggested that wasn't broad enough.

I think that we should be recommend ing to the government something on a much broader scale, something that"would help all the municipalities. MAD AM SPEAKER: Are you ready for the question? MR . ALBERT VIELFAURE (LaVerendrye): I beg to move , seconded by the Honourable Member from St. George, that the debate be adjourned. Madam Speaker put the question, and after a voice vote, declared the motion carried. MADAM SPEAKER: The adjourned debate on the proposed resolution of the Honourable the Member for Inkster. The Honourable the Member for Swan River. MR . JAMES H.

BILTON (Swan River): Madam Speaker, before speaking to this re solution, may I suggest that this is the first time I've taken

part in debates in this session in your presence. !would therefore extend to you my good wishes for your continued good health and success in your heavy, and sometimes tedious respo.1sibilities. Madam Speaker, in speaking to this resolution, it is with a feeling of respect toward the Honourable Member for Inkster. While he refrained from going into detail, I remember his eloquent appeal of last year. His continued interest in the well being of the senior citizens is understood..

Madam S9eaker, I want to assure him that many others, both inside and outside this House, have a burning interest in doing their best toward bettering the lot of those unfortunate enough to find themselves in need in their declining years and unable to provide for themselves. Madam Speaker, no one questions that the rising cost of living is dealing a heavy blow to our senior citizens, as it is with most everyone else. I do, however, make no apology Page 336 February 21, 1964.

(Mr. Bilton , cont 'd) ...•. for the efforts of this 'government during its term of office in helping in this sphere of endeavour. Added to this there's the effort made by people in Manitoba toward providing a means of substance and a life of dignity, to which my hon ourable friend refers. My honourable friend stated that the cost of living has increased 34 percent sine� 1949 . I note that he overlooked the fact that pensions in that time have increased 150 percent . He will no doubt . recall that the pension in 1949, a year he men-. tions in his resoluti on, was only $30 .0 0 a month, not $55 .0 0 as intimated.

He will also recall that in 1952 , the pension was increased to $40 , 00 . Furthermore, it was that year -- 1952 that the Old A:ge Assistance Plan was extended for those in the age group 65 to 70 . Demands , Ma dam Speaker , for assistance continue to be high, but through the steady progressive action by the government, and communit y-minded organizations , a large marjority of those requiring attention are being accommoda ted. Over the past fiscal year , some $830, 894 has been alloca ted for hostels and housing units as an assistance to local organizations, with ail increased forecas t for this year.

J said e�r.lie.r, my friend opposite did not go into any length in the support of his resolution, nor, Madam Speaker, do I intend to 'whip the horse' today; All have listened, read and seen for themselves problems facing our elderly people. No co mments of mine, insofar as statistics are concerne d, will serve any purpose at this particular time. I have no doubt during the estimates on welfare, facts will be brought forward for the interest of all.

I would, however, like at this time to extend to you Madam, and members of this House, a few personal experiences which leads me to mentLm the Senior Citizens' Lodge in Swan River, which was opened only a couple of years a50 and is presently housing 50 people in surroundings of com fort undreamed of five years ago. This Home , Madam Speaker, provides all-i nclusive -- and I repeat that -- all inclusive accom modation with private, beautifully furnished suites in a price range of $65 to $75 t'>er month. Not exce ssive, I'm sure you will agi:ee, at this particular time.

The depart ment assists individuals in this Home financially where necessar y, and the local taxpayers, the taxpayers of th•3 Swan River Valley, have picked up the tab for the initial construction and furnishing costs, which I can assure you, Madam Speaker, is no sma ll item. Similar homes, Madam Speaker , have been and are being developed all over the province. So I say, while there is yet:much to be done, progress -- substantial progress is being made and I reiterate that these people are not being forgotten. In fact I defy anyone to say so, and really mean it.

I do say however, Madam Speaker, that from experience , I find there is a tendency these days for some to abandon their parents -- parents who have reached cheir twilight years. Too often, parents are forgotten and cast aside as a charge to an interested organization, or the state, if you like .. This, I submit, is wrong and such people should pause awhile and remember that the day will probably come when the same fate may befall them. This condition, Madam Speaker, without question aggravates the situation and I suggest a little more human approach toward this problem within family life is long overdue.

In passing Madam Speaker, the resoluti on put forward by my honourable friend will require in the neighbourhood of $50 million to meet the needs of approximately 50, 000 people over the age of se venty years, and some 28 , 000 in the age group of 65 to 69 years -- all this in Manitoba. It is not hard to realize �hat hundreds of millions of dollars will be reqLlired Dominion wise to meet the suggestion put forward. While this is for the most part a federal proble m, let there be no mistake. Manitobans will have to bear their fa1r share of the taxation to underwrite any given situation.

We are all aware, Madam Speaker, tbilt the subject of universal pensions is a matter presently being considered by the federal parlia ment, out of which all of us would hope and pray that the needs of the senior citizens, the pioneers of this vast land of ours, will be given the consideration they rightfully deserve. After all, we in this House and thousands beyond its borders recognize this basic problem . We -- or at least I- - have no quarrel that the need does exist.

It is on the manner we resolve the problem that we would perhaps dis agree. 0L lr society, Madam Speaker for generations have accepted this responsibility, much more today than every before. In recent years great strides have been made. All must admit this. In all honesty, Madam Speaker, I just wonder how long we can continue to keep using the power of the state to constantly demand increases toward our ever mounting tax load.

In other words, are we not taking from on•' part of our society -- the 'toilers -- an increased levy of the citiz ens ' earned dollar and handing it to another part of our society more and more, February 21, 1964 Page 337

(Mr. Bilton, cont'd ). .. and in saying this , Madam Speaker, I would want you to understand that I am excluding the aged, the sick and the maimed. With these few remarks, Madam Speaker, I am sure you could probably presume that I cannot support the resolution. MADAM SPEAKER: Are you ready for the ques tion? MR . NELSON SHOEMAKER (Gladstone): Madam S.peaker, I beg to move , seconded by the Honourable Member for Lakeside , that the debate be adjourned. Madam Speaker presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried.

MADA M SPEAKER : The adjourned debate on the proposed resolution of the Honourable the Member for Inkster. The Honourable the Member for Brandon. MR . LISSAMAN: Madam Speaker, when the Honourable Member for In:kster was pro posing this resolut ion to the House he used the words descr ibing the conditions around which divorce may be obtained as cruel and brutal laws. I think that we should never for one mom ent foreget that basically what is at stake are the regulations surrounding the marriage ceremony, and I would much rather members remember that this is a firm and binding but very just contract.

Now, as to ::: ruel and brutal laws I would ask each me mber to question himself in his own mi nd. Cer tainly there is no doubt about it, that people can be very cruel and brutal to each other but I think the Honourable Member for Inkster would be well -advised to reconsi der his descr iption of legislation in this manner. Now, having said that, I would still like to say that I am not so far apart as I may have seemed to by saying these words, from the honourable member.

I think any com mon, decent person, realiz ing what tragedies can develop from ill-m ated marriages is , in some degree at least, of agree ment with the expressi ons aimed at in the honourable member's resolution. However, I cannot find myself in agreeme nt with many of the reasons he suggests should be given as considerations for divorce, particularly those in which the reasons are defined as being considerations for divorce, particularly those in which the reasons are defined as being time periods .

Now I know any honourable member could reasonably and rightly say, "Well, for goodness sakes, if the marri age is a sad affair, if people are incompati ble, if they are cruel to each other, if there is desertion, well then certai nly no one should be condemned to going on the rest of their lives bound by such a contract. " And I think all thinking people today would agree that there must be some reasonable term at least, even in years of how long they mu st abide by a bad contract.

Now, in addition to coupli ng this with a period of yea rs, I think me mbers would agree that in singling out insanity, continuous and recurrent, as being a reason, what about many other ailments that a person may develop which would make life very mi serable for a pair living together. _S o I think it's not wise to single out a si ngle illne ss such as insanity. As a sixth reason, the Honourable Member for Inkster suggests legal separation for more than two years .

Well now, I wonder what the Member for Inkster means when he says "leg al sep aration" because if two people agree mutually to separate I can see nothing illegal in this. I wonder if the Honourable Member for Inkster had in mi nd a separation such as under our Wife and Child Maintenance Act. Now, legal grounds for separation under this Act are given as -- conviction for assault on the wife; failure to provide reasonable maintenance for the wife or children; third, habitual drunkenness; fourth, desertion without lawful excuse , and fifth, pers istent cruelty.

Now I propose, Madam Speaker, to amend this reso'.ution and while I will be in some degree, I suppose, discussi ng my amendment, I would like to propose the idea. to the House that rather than define these particular reasons , as the honourable member has set forward, with their rather short term of two years in at least three instances -- and I wonder if this is a reasonable peri od to place as a reason for divorce , because there's the very real danger of people who mi ght otherwise get together and make a reasonable go of things 1f the period were not too short and I think we should make every effort to make the marri age contract one which is not too eas ily to be broken, for the good of the nation, for the good of moral standards; and I sugg est, rather, that if we were to delete all the reasons given after reason one, and substitute somet hing in the nature of a legal separation which has been in exis tence for at least four or more years as a reason in addition to the first reason given in the resolution, if this mi ght not be quite a reasonable approach at least for the federal auth orities to consider as a further grounds for divorce .

Page 338 February 21, 1964. - I

(Mr. Lissaman, cont'

d) I might suggest to the honourable member proposing the reso lution that really, in effect, it does take into consideration many of the items which he has suggested as reasons but puts it on a more general basis , and probably more acceptable basis , for authorities to consider. Therefore , Madam Chairman, I beg to move , seconded by the Honourable Member for Morris , that the reasons No. 2 to 6 inclusive in the resolution be deleted, and that the words , "where there has been a separation sanctioned by the court which has existed for four years or more" be substituted. · Madam Sp3aker presented the motion. MR.

T. P. HILLHOUSE (Selkirk): Madam Speaker , I wish to move, seco nded by the Honourable Member for Lakeside that the.del;ate be adjourned. Madam Speaker presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MADAM SPEAKER: The proposed motion standing in the name of the Honourable the Member for Inkster. MR. MORRIS A GRAY (Inkster): Madam Speaker, in view of the fact that there 's another resolution on sugar, I shall have the permission of the House to let it stand until the other motion is disposed of. MADAM SPEAKER: Agreed ? MR .

EVANS: ..... ... the point of order that my honourable friend will ask for the item to stand on each occasion on which it appears on the Order Paper, we agree to the Order stand ing today. . ....... Continued on Next Page. February 21, 1964 Page 339

MADAM SPEAK ER: The proposed motion of the Honourable the Member for Portage la Prairie. MR. JOHNSTON: I beg to move , seconded by the Honourable Member from Assi niboia,

whereas there is a rapid increase in the number of vehicles using Trans Canada Highway No. l between Winnipeg and the junction of No . 4 west of Portage la Prairie, and wh ereas there is a continuing high accident rate and death toll on this

section of highway, therefore

be it resolved that this government consider the advisability of proceeding at once to construct two additional traffic lanes to provide a four lane divided highway from Winnipeg west to the junction of No. 1 and 4 west of Portage la Prairie . Madam Speaker presented the motion . MR . JOHNSTON : Thank you, Madam Speaker, I shall be brief. Madam Speaker, it was just about a year ago today that this resolution was put forward by myself and the government , when they spoke to the resolution,ma de two points I believe.

One of the points was that this action would be taken when it was needed, and during the debate the people who spoke in favour took the view that the need was then -- that is, one year ago , and I'm still labouring this point that the need is here now. It's not some time in the future .

Also there appeared to be some inconsist ency I thought when the Honourable Member from Roblin spoke , and he suggested to us in his speech that the corrective measures that had been taken were stop- gap enough to hold this position -- hold down accidents , and satisfy the need of the time , for some time to come , although he didn't elaborate on the time that we could wait for this suggested action. Now I have here, Madam Speaker, a few newspaper clippLY!gs that have to do with this stretch of road in the past year, and I would like to read parts of them into the record.

One is from the Daily Graphic , October 24, 1963 , and the headline reads - "B randon Man Dies after Collision. One man was killed and three other persons escaped serious injuries as a result of a two car colli sion on the Trans' Canada Highway 3 miles east of Portage la Prairie about 1: 00 P. M. Tuesday afternoon. " The other -- and I won't complete the reading of that -- the other clipping I'd like to refer to in the same newspaper November 26 , 19 63. "Death Strip Claims Two More Por tagers.

" The opening paragraph says "Two Portage la Prairie residents have been killed in accidents along the infamous death strip of the Trans Canada Highway between Headingley and Elie." Without going into the whole

article , Madam Speaker , this particular item refers to two different accidents at different times . The other accident occurred near Headingley. I would like now to refer to an announcement that was made by government officials shortly after the debate that took pl2-ce last year, and in this particular announcement it says here , "The Pro vi ncial Government soon will begin negotiations to acquire enough property for a four lane super-highway between Headingley and Portage .

Deputy Minister George Collins said Thursday the necessary rights-of-way will be gradually acquired ." Madam Speaker, I would like to draw the honourable members' attention to the phrasing here -- "gra dually acquired ." While it does say later in the

article that some of the money will be appropriated this year, it suggests I be lieve that the land is going to be acquired over a number of years, and if we can take this for the face value , it wouldn't be too much to assume that the construction is going to take place ov er a number of years, and Madam Speaker, I contend that this particular construction project is needed and needed desperately, and by waiting two , three, four, five , whatever number of years before the completion , is not in the best interests of the people of this province . It is of such importance I believe that it should be started.

The acquisition of the land should be rushed th rough, the whole construction program should be carried out in the nature of a crash program , to have this desperate need fulfilled. Now, I know that when we come to talk about the cost of such a project -- to add another two lanes, 50 some odd miles -- that my honourable friends on the other side of the House are going to say that we are always advocating the spending of money but the money needs to be raised also .

Well , I have a suggestion that may be of some help there and this suggestion comes from our friends across the line who are acknowledged the best road builders in the world, I believe , and that is to consider the advisability of the use of toll roads . We know it 's an expensive proposition . We know that the money has got to be found.

In this particular case there is a highway -- the old No. 1 now called No. 4, that runs from Por tage to Winnipeg, and the people who didn't wish to pay the toll , they have an alternative , but for those who want modern highspeed travel, which is what four lane highway provides with safety, then this alternative could be considered. Madam Speaker, I am urging upon the Page 340 February 21 st, 1964. I

(Mr. Jobnston, cont'd) .••.. government the need for immediate action, not some action sometime in the wmamed future . MR . HARRY P. SHEWMAN (Morris) : Madam Speaker, I wish to move , seconded by the Honourable Member from Dufferin, that the debate be adjourned. Madam Speaker presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MADAM SPEAKER: The propose9 resolution standing in the name of the Honourable the Member for Lake side . MR . CAMPBE LL: Madam Speaker, I move , seconded by the Honourable Member for St. Boniface,

whereas on April2, 1957 , March 26 , 1960, and February 21, 1961, Mr. Speaker ruled that a report from a special committee could not be referred back to that committee , and

whereas by letters dated February 23 and February 24;, 1961, the opinion of Honourable Ro land Michener then Speaker of the House of Commons , Ottawa, was sought; and

whereas Honourable Mr. Michener requested Mr. Leon Raymond, Clerk of the House of Commons to ad vise on the matter; and

whereas the opinion of Mr . Raymond, concurred in by Honourable Mr . Michener, was that, following the practice of either the Canadian Parliament or the United Kingdom Parliament , a report of a special committee may be referred back to be amended .

Now therefore

be it resolved that the rulings of Mr. Speaker of April 2, 1957 , March 26 , 1960, and February 21, 196 1, as reported on Pages 283 , 282 and 30 of the Journals of the House, 1957 , 1960 , and 1961 respectively, shall not be considered as precedents by this Legislative Ass embly. Madam Speaker presented the motion. MR . CAM PBELL : Madam Speaker, the honourable members will notice that, to a large extent, the subject matter of this resolution is similar to a motion that I made in the House last year .

It covers the three Speaker's rulings on this occasi on, rather than one , because the Honourable the Attorney-General of that day pointed out there were two other cases where somewhat or exactly similar rulings had been given; so. I thought it wise to include it in the reso lution at the present time .

I would not want it to be thought that I was trying to be techni cal about this matter, because I don't believe greatly in the technicalities, and I repeat what I have said on other occasions that I hold firmly to the view that the rules are intended to be the servants of the House , and not their masters , and I hold also to the view that while the rules are often quoted as being for the protection of the minorities , and certainly that's an important function of the rules, yet they are also , and I think quite properly, for the conduct of the business of government which is above all important in the House too.

So my submission is that it's important to all of us that the rules be correctly interpreted, and, having been correct ly interpreted , that we do our level best to live up to them . I do not intend to take the time to develop this matter that I did on the last occasion. The honourable members had the opportunity to read those portions of the correspondence with the Honourable Mr . Michener at their leisure be cause I placed them on Hansard for that purpose . If they have read them I'm sure they will have arrived at the conclusion that Mr .

Michener has said that the Canadian practice and the United Kingdom practice both permit of this being done. I have the conviction, Madam Speaker, that it was only because of the lateness of the hour , both in the day and the session, at which this matter came up for debate last year , that the decision of the House was to not support it. I think if we had not been rush ed at that time that we would .have given more careful considera tion to it and that an agreement could have been reached. This is one reason that I have made it a point to get it on reasonably early in this session.

So I leave it to the judgment of the House, once again, to consider this matter carefully -- consider the information that Mr . Mich ener has given which I think is completely authoritative, but equally important to read once again our own rule on the matter. It's said, Madam Speaker, that the old Roman statesman , Cato, used to end every speech that he made during a certain period, with the statement that Carthage must be destroyed.

Well, I don't .want to become famous for one single statement of 'read the rules' , or •read our own rule book' , or' go by our own rules' , but I do feel constrained to say time and time again, to newer members of the House , that, though I do not pose as an expert, I feel sure that if we just acquaint ourselves with our own, rule book , that we can get along very well in the vast majority of cases. And, while I'm not one that believes that the . rules should be too severely applied, I certainly am one that believes that these rules have February 21st, 1964. Page 341.

(Mr.

Campbell cont'd) .•.... arisen from a long, long history of parliament , that they have simmered down through discussion and debate and precedent through the years, and that they have been developed as something that will best achieve those two main objectives of protect ing the rights of the minori ty, no matter how small they are in the House , to be heard and to get their point of view before the legislature , and at the same time facilitate the ':-usiness of the government, which also is important , both from the point of view of principle and of practi ce ; and in this connection , I want to mention once again that, just as the provincial gov ernment in the sphere of responsibility that is assigned to it is equally authoritative in its own sphere as the federal government is in its large sphere, so our own rules here, where they apply are the final resort and not any others .

If you look at the general rules at the first of our rule book, you will find that it is only when our own rule is held not to apply, that we go to the Parliament of Canada for their custom or rule. And so to me it is abundantly clear in ou r rules that such an. amendment is permis sible, and now we have that point of view reinforced by the argument of Mr . Michener and Mr.

Raymond that the same is the case in both the Can adian Parliament and the United Kingdom Parliament, which is a good indication that it is from both sources that our own rule has come , that I would think that on this occasion, we could all agree that these rulings should not be considered as precedent, and that during the course of the debate that we can resolve to once again take a close look at · the procedure dealing with commi ttees which is covered quite fully on Page 28, 29 and 30 of our rule book, following a pro cedure through the various committ ees, the setting up, the conduct of the committ ees, the re ports by the chairm an, and then coming to -- and incidentally dealing with both spending and special comm ittees , and then coming to Rule 73 , which says in what seems to me to be the clearest of language , "a report from a comm ittee shall not be amended by the House , but it may be referred back to the commit tee." So I recommend a. consideration of those particular sections to any member of the House that is interested, and I hope that we can on this occasion set the matter straight, not by blaming anybody for what's gone on in the past, and I have no intention of doing this -- I'm sure that any rules, any of these decisions that are referred to, were ma de with the very best of intentions by the speakers concerned, but because I thin¥ they do not agree with the strictest

interpretation of our own rule and the opinion that Mr. Raymond and Mr. Michener have given to us that we should now make this change . If the honourable members are anxious to hear me at any greater length, which I sincerely doubt, I shall be pre pared to say something more at the conclusion of the debate. HON. ABRAM W. HARRISON (Minister without Portfolio) (Rock Lake): Madam Speak er, I beg to move , seconded by the Honourable the Minister of Public Works that the debate be adjourned. Madam Speaker pre sented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried.

MADAM SPEAKER: The proposed resolution standing in the name of the Honourable the Member for Brokenhead. MR. PETERS: In the absence of the Honourable Member, may we have this ma tter stand? MADAM SPEAKER: Agreed. Second reading of Bill No . 20. The Honourable the Leader of the New Democratic Party. MR. PAULLEY presented Bill No . 20,

an Act to amend The Transcona Charter, for second reading. Madam Speaker presented the motion . MR. PAULLEY: The purpose of this bill, Madam Speaker, is to permit an amendment to the City Charter of Transcona, so that the elected mayor and aldermen of the City will be enabled to take office at the end of the month following in which the municipa l elections take place .

As I'm sure honourable members are aware that at the present time , under the provi sion to The Municipal Act, members who are elected to new positions on Council , or re-elected, that they do not take their positions on the Council until the January following , albeit the election is in October. It is felt that this is a practice which while prevalent over the years has been established, that mig ht be changed so that there isn't a 'lame duck' period between the time of the election and the time of the incumbent taking his seat on the council .

Now, this provis ion has already been ma de in the wisdom of this legislative body, and I suggest , Madam Speaker -- Page 342 February 21st, 1964 . I

(Mr. Paulley cont'd) ...... good wisdom -- insofar as the City of Kildonan is concerned. The forward looking community of Transcona requests the same for them and I sincerely trust and hope that this will have the support of the Assembly. I might say that the matter was dis cussed at the Urban Convention -- the Manitoba Urban Association at Swan River this year . It was given a co!lsiderable amount of debate.

The general consensus of opinion at that particu lar time by the majo rity was that, while we have no objections in principle, we thought -- this wa s the tenor of the convention -- that they would not apply to the government for holus-bolus change of the Act at this time ; but they agree in principle , I am sure, Madam Speaker, that with a charter of an in\lividual City this is quite within their rights and quite proper for them to obtain these privileges . Madam Speaker put the question,. and after a voice vote, declared the motion carried.

MADAM SPE AKER: The adjourned debate on the proposed motion of the Honourable, the Minister of Mines and Natural Resource s. The Honourable the Member for Rhineland. MR . FROESE : Madam Speaker, I beg the indulgence of the House to have this matter stand. MADAM SPEAKER: Agreed? MR . EVANS: Madam Speaker , at this point, I would propose to call the adjourned debate on the motion to go into Ways and Means , and I have just asked the Whip on the other side if he would find out whether the Leader of the Opposition is prepared to proceed at this point.

I would be glad to delay proceedings of the House until I have that answer, if I have un animous consent to do so . I think it's a courtesy to him which we would like to extend. And now, I just wonder whether I should -- to occupy the space . • . . . quite sure I can spare the House any speech of mine just to fill in the interval, and if it's acceptable to you, Madam Speaker , perhaps you would allow a minute to see whether I can have an answer to my inquiry . MR . ELMAN GUTTORMSO N (St. George) : Madam Speaker, with the indulgence of the House I'd like to have the matter stand until next week. MR .

EVANS: That's agreed? MADAM SP EAKER: Agreed. MR . EV ANS: Madam Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Minister of Mines and Natural Resources, that Ma dam Speaker do now leave the Chair, and the House resolve itself into a Co mmittee to consider of the supply to be granted to Her Maj esty. Madam Speaker presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried, and the House resolved into a Comm ittee of Supply with the Honourable Member for St. Matthews in the Chair. MR . CH AIRMAN: ...•. Provincial Secretary. Res olution No. 23 -- Emergency measures Item 10. MR . STEINKOPF: Mr .

Chairman , before we proceed on that, there were a few ques tions that were asked of me last evening and I had the courtesy extended to me of giving me the time to reply to them, but I see that the honourable gentlemen are not in their seats , so I guess I'll give them the answers if they come in a little later on, or do I give them the answers now, MR . ROBLIN : ..... probably be in after. MR .

STEINKOPF: The question by the Honourable the Member for Lakes ide referring to a chart in the annual report of the Civil Service Commission, chart on page 15 , asking an explanation 'why the number of employees in one colUmn total 6,0 35, and in another column , 5, 382 . I'm replying to the question that was asked of me last evening. MR. CAMPB ELL: Thank you very much. MR.

STEINKOPF: The figures in column one which would be under December, 1963 , are all of the employees as of December , 1963 , whi.ch would include the employees covering off establishments , all the full-time civil servants, the term employees and the ca suals as of that time . And in the column immediately bes ide it -- for example, corn ing off 33 7 of the estab lishments under Agriculture and Co nservation, you'll see an Item of 302 . This shows the number of civil servants in established positions .

The total number of positions that were set up in the estimates for that department were some 337 , so you only had 30 2 of them covering off 337 of the establishments , and then the balance would be ma de up 9f casua l help and term employees . I hope that that is reasonably clear. MR . CAM PBELL : I always find it a little -- I thank the Minister for his explanation. February 21 st, 196ib. Page 343

(Mr. Campbell , cont' d) ..... I do find it a little bit confusing to try and follow the figures. I don't have my list here now but as I remember the figures last evening there was something ju st over 6, 000 employees shown in that third column on the page . MR. STEINKOPF: ...•. 5, 082 in the other column. MR. CAMP BELL : Yes . MR. STEINKOPF: If the member would like , I could go into this with him after we're sitting here and discuss this in detail . MR. CAMP BELL : Yes .

I think perhaps that's the better way, because I would like to check that at the Minister's convenience and I don't want to hold up the other matters that are here at the time and I will check the figures on Hansard in the explanation and can ask some other questions later. MR . STEINKOPF : There was a question posed to me by the Honourable Member for Selkirk in connection with the Purchasing Department, requesting information as to the policy of that department insofar as revealing information as to the successful bidder, his name , and the price that the successful contract was let at.

I've ascertained the policy of the department is not to reveal these figures and this has been a long time well-established policy of the de partment and has been considered in the best interest of the department and of the taxpayer in that there is a feeling that if the prices were revealed to others that probably it would cost the department and the taxpayer considerably more , because there is a benefit in purchasing without revealing the price that was paid.

N�w this is a practice that has not been adopted lightly -- I presume that it has been in force for a number of years -- but it certainly isn't one that has to be fixed and I think it is one of these things that we're looking into and I think that it could be modified to a degree and in the report that we're working on we'll have a little further to say on this particular point . MR. HILLHOUSE: Mr .

Ch airman, I wish to thank the Minister for the information that he has given me and naturally I urge that the Minister do try and introduce the system which the federal purchasing agent uses, that of revealing particulars of the successful tender . I believe that it would result in better public relations . I believe that there is a feeling today through the non-disclosure of these facts that there might be something to hide .

Now, I'm not saying for one moment there is anything to hide , but there is the possibility of that feeling arising, and I think in the interest of good public relations that it would be well to frankly dis close to the unsucces sful tenderers particulars of the successful tenderer's bid. MR . CHAIRMAN : Item 10 , Emergency Measures, Resolution 23 -- MR. MOLGAT: Mr . Chairma n , is the Minister going to make a statement on the ma tters of civil defence, which I believe come under this Item , although the name has been changed? MR.

STEINKOPF: I prefer to answer questions if I could, rather than make a general statement . I could if you prefer. MR. MOLGAT: Well , Mr.

Ch airman , we had quite an extended debate on the matter of civil defence last year, and my suggestion to the government then was to either get value for the money we were spending in this, or to cease completely the experiments, and we had ma de some specific recomm endations at that time -- my honourable friends across the way are always asking for us to be positive , and we had been positive in a number of matters -- but I've seen no action on the part of the governn1ent on this .

For example , we have proposed that the Manitoba Telephone books, both the city and the rural one , should have a much better civil defence

section in it than what they have at present. I believe that th ere's been no change since last year. Only one page is devoted to civil defense information ,

whereas there are several pa ges devoted to 2-dvertising the Telephone System and so on . Now here is a book that is in virtually every home. I think it's fair to say that every homeowner knows exactly where it is because they have to consult it with fair regularity. It seems to me an ideal means of getting the basic information that we re quire to get to people on the civil defence .

I'm sorry that there's been no action and I would recommend to the new Minister that he have a look at th is, and due to the fact that he 's also Minister of Public Utilities he should have no trouble what soever in co-ordinating these activities . I'd also suggested last year that we should look at the American system of marking the evacuation routes. When you go into America n cities the evacuation routes are clearly Page 34 4 February 21 st , 1964 . I I I

(Mr. Molgat cont'd) ...•• marked; there 's no difficulty insofar as the residents in the various areas knowing what course to follow. Well, here we haven't done so . It's in the telephone book and if people go to the trouble of getting in touch with Metro they can get the information in booklets , but once again I think if we're serious about civil defence that we should take some further steps and set this up. We had some questions last year ·on the ma tters of sirens, for example , the fact that at that time there was no siren, I'm told, _at the University of Manitoba. I wonder if this is so .

I also would like to know from the Minister whether the siren system has been expanded or whether it is the same as last year . There had been some difficulties on the last test that I know of in that the sirens were. not effective beca use they could not be heard in all sections of the city. Now in spite of my criticisms in the past I would like to say this, Mr.

Chairman, in fairness to the organization, that last summer I had the opportunity of working quite closely with the civil defence group during an army exercise at Ca mp Sh ilo , and in fairness to my honourable friend's group, we had to make use of his vehicles and his setup for communications which turned out to be most efficient. The station wagons equipped with the radio system were really the only relays that we could depend on and they obviously had a very efficient radio set up which I believe extends throughout the province , so in that regard I would like to compliment him on this development.

I would appreciate if he could give me an answer to my questions and let me know whether we can expect action to be taken on these measures . MR . PAUL LEY: Mr . Chairman, this is the item which gives us an opportunity in this House to make some comment on the question of the world situation, particularly in regards to civil defence and other adjectives of weapons of destruction and preservation. It seems to me that we should take advantage of this opportunity to make a few com ments each year . You may recall last year , Mr .

Chairman , that we had a considerable dis cussion in this House on the question as to whether or not Canada should permit the domiciling of nuclear weapons on our soils . And I think if I recall correctly, that from the tenor of the debate at that time the majo rity opinion in this House was that we should not. I think members of this House are fully cognizant of the fact that it appears, or possibly that history will reveal, that a political party lost an election beca use of divisions within its party on this very vital point of nuclear weapons .

I think also history will recall that insofar as the federal situation at the present time, that the government of the day, despite its original opposition to the domiciling of nuclear weapons in Canada ,despite the fact that it was only prior to an election that they changed their mind, but more important, despite the fact that the majority of the people of the Dominion of Ca nada rejected the domiciling of nuclear weapons on Ca nadian soil, that this ma jo rity government of Cana da has per mitted these weapons to be domiciled in Ca nada against the overwhelming majority of the people of Canada , Now I want to make a protest in this Legislative Assembly of Manitoba of the actions of the government at Ottawa in this regard.

It seems to me , Mr .

Chairman, that even in the minor amount contained in the estimates for Civil Defence in the budget of my honourable friend the Secretary-Treasurer that we're going against the tide even here in the Province of Manitoba, for while we have noted recently in the Dominion House that the appropriations in the Department of National Defence have been reduced in many areas -- there have been curtailments in naval forces and naval equipment; there have been reductions in air staffs; there have been reductions in military staffs -- that it seems to me , however, that insofar as our local appropriation is concerned there's an increase .

Now I'm sure that my honourable friend the Provincial Secre tary will be able to explain and fully justify why it is that here on this item of emergency meas ures which has always been considered is in general lack of civil defence , we are asking for about $6 0, 000 more in total expenditures this year . Even the Federal Government, despite .its rejection of the major ity opinion of the people of Ca nada in respect of nuclear weapons , has �n fit to reduce the burden -- the monetary burden -- on the taxpayer of Canada by reduction, here we have an increase.

It seems to me that we're in a better atmosphere , Mr. Chairman, today, insofar as the world situation is concerned than we have been in for many yeq.rs. And I say this in full cognizance of the fact that in many areas throughout the globe there are tensions -- ne'3d I mention Cyprus and Vietnam and many others -- there are still grave tensions and spots of February 21st, 1964 . Page 345

(Mr. Paulley cont'd) ..... disturbance , buti think on the other hand, Mr . Chairman, it is only proper to be able to say here today that the main area of contention seems to be a little more eased than it has been for a good long time. It seems that Ca nada and the Soviet Union haVe been able as the result of our trade negotiations at least to be able to talk to each other, and indeed it even seems that maybe more miraculous , Mr .

Chairman, even than this, that the nation to the south of us, who have always been more vigorous in their denunciation of com munism that anyone else , have come along the road to at least recognize to some degree of the necessity of trade with the Soviet Union. My honourable colleague from Inkster, speaking in debate the other day, suggested that we should sponsor or join in a petition for the recognition of Red China in order to fur ther the easing of tensions in the world. So I say, Mr.

Chairman, it is I think a happier note that we can meet on and discuss the question of civil defence than we have been able to meet under for the last few years . So I want to know from the Honourable the Provincial Secretary a full explanation as to why it is that here in the Province of Manitoba , notwithstanding the ea sing of tensions that I have mentioned, notwithstanding the reductions in expenditures at the federal level, we have increases here . Now my honourable friend, the Leader of the Opposi tion, just talking a moment ago , seemed to indicate at least to me , he wants more . I want less.

I think this is one area of human endeavour where I cannot see eye to eye at all with my honourable friend, the Leader of the Opposition, who is clamoring for more and more gad gets and gimmicks in the area of civil defence . His government at Ottawa, despite my com plaint of their rejection of the will of the people of Ca nada, have gone along the line of saying less . • . • • . . I suggest to my honourable friend that he should do likewis·e here in the Province of Manitoba.

Instead of saying, "Well now last year we suggested this, that, and the other, you haven't done it, so therefore. you shouldincrease your recommended amount of expenditure," I say to you, Mr. Provincial Secretary, you should have a su bstantial reduction in the amount of mmi.ies that are required for civil defence . I was happy last night to hear from my friend the First Minister that he recognizes pretty well the validity of what I am saying today, when he sa id last night, Mr . Chairman, that he has abandoned his ideas of building a bomb shelter.

Now, I'm sure that he remembers the day when he stood up when the Honourable Member for Lakeside was the Leader of the Opposition, he invited the Honourable Leader of the Opposition and myself to come over to his house to help him build his bomb shelter -- I forget exactly the words of the Honourable Member for Lakeside who was then the Leader of the Opposition; I think it was something to the effect: "Well if one hits me I won't be around so it doesn't matter whether I've got one or not" - - I rejected it completely at that time .

My honourable friend has co me along -- I don't know what's happened to the Honourable Member for Lakeside in the mea ntime, but -- Oh, he's still here, and there's still been no bombs and I'm suggesting that a lot of the expenditures and the worries and apprehensions that persisted before in this mat ter of civil defence have been dissipated because of a real , true, considered approach to this subject, and I'm suggesting that that is not reflected in the budget of my honourable friend respecting civil defence and I certainly would like to hear from him. MR . STEINKOPF: Mr .

Ch airman, I wish it were within my power to answer both my learned friends with one statement but I'm afraid that it'll take a little longer than that. Tha t's not quite possible , but almost. I entered the field of civil defence with a great deal of trepida tion and uncertainty in my own mind as to what approach should one take in a matter as ether eal as civil defence, and I must admit that I've come out of it with a rather definite opinion as to what our approach on the matter should be .

The Government of .Manitoba accepts responsi bility in an emergency , as you know, for the preservation of law and order, control of traffic, reception services, medical and public health services, maintenance and repair of highways, organization of municipal and other services for the maintenance and repair of water and sew age systems, organization and control of municipal and other fire fighting services, except in severely damaged or heavy fall-out areas , maintenance and repair of electrical utilities, training of civilians as civil defence workers.

This responsibility exists and is there and will always be there. The stress in the ea rly days of civil defence was on a nuclear attack and what would happen if we were subjected to one. The term "ci vil defence" soon became almost a bad or nasty word, and the title of the organization was changed to "Eme rgency Measures Organiza tion, " and when one looks into that they will realize that it was done for a very good reason. Page 346 February 21st , 1964 . I I

(Mr. Steinkopf cont'd) .....•. Not only fs our government involved in man-made destruction, but also in the event of any natural disaster of any kind, and it is more in that field that our Emergency Measures Organization is now operating, and if one has had the opportunity of look ing into it, as I presume that the Honourable the Leader of the Opposition has last summer, he comes away a little bit more satisfied that it is performing a very useful function in much the same manner as I have done. The increase in the estimates is some thirteen-odd thousand dollars and not $60 ,0 00 .oo.

The figure last year was $53 ,2 00 and this year it's $65, 625 .0 0. This represents 25 percent of the actual cost, the other 75 percent being borne by the federal government. It is a fietd that I was sort of amazed that the federal government did not use the axe rather early . I thought this would be one of the first economies that they would try to effect, but they didn't, and that also gave me more reason to wonder why they didn't and confirm my own opinion.

We are establishing, in the Province of Manitoba, a first-class organization for looking after any disaster that may happen here , and I believe at a cost of a fraction of what would be required if we did it on our own, because not only are we just being asked to pay 25 percent of it, but we are also getting the advantage of excellently trained men and the use of the · armed services in training our own personnel and working very closely with us .

Some of the things that have been done, in reply to the more specific questions - - I, too, looked at this escape route that was in the telephone book and it certainly isn't very much. It's there and that's about all you can say for it, and this I came about on my own, not realizing it was then an issue in the House last year, and only this morning was working with the head of the telephone system on a new kind of a draft plan -- a map -- that would be a little easier to read and a little bit more dramatic .

So I be lieve that we will be able to have something better in the next telephone book than what we had before , and there's still probably room for improve ments but we've given it the best that we can so far. The organization, I think, has done an excellent job in connection with the emergency communication system .

This was referred to by the Honourable the Leader of the Opposition and I do not want to go into detail on this -- I have it all here -- but they have base and mobile stations all over the province , and this system is based on the existing telephones and the De partment of Mines and Natural Resources radio system . They have established a series of mobile feeding units . These at the moment are located at Portage la Prairie, Brandon and Dauphin, and these units are capable of serving 200 simple meals per hour.

Now this may not seem like very much but keeping mind a local disaster such as an airplane tragedy that happen ed in Montreal recently, there the services of the Emergency Organization were called into play, and within a very short time they had a very well -organized effort operating.

I also have felt right along that although the public think that we 're playing at soldiers when we work on civil defence, if, God forbid, anything did ever happen, they would point a finger at us , and probably rightly so , for not hav·ing provided the kind of service that they expect the people in government circles to provide for them.

We have a very large stockpile of emergency medical supplies located at a central location in the province, and plans are now under way to disperse many of these supplies, and a pharmacist is being added to our staff in this '64 and this is part of the increase that we're asking for, to carry out this task. Three trailers to carry this equipment -- that is the pharma ceuticals -- are located at Portage la Prairie , Shilo, and again at Dauphin. Fire or rescue trucks are located at Winnipeg, Brandon, Dauphin, Selkirk, Birtle, Swan River and Minnedosa.

A trailer suitable as a base of operations for natural disasters is now located in Winnipeg, and it will be equipped with two-way radio and emergency power supplies . There is a long list here of minor other items that I do not want to take the time up unless you'd like to hear anything specific , but my feeling is that the training that is being given to the professionals in the field of emergency measures or civil defence or disasters alone is worthwhile the cost of the opera tion, the $65, 000 .00.

The firemen, the policemen, the heads of the municipalities, the mayors , the reeves , and the members of the council are all being trained in what role they should play in the event of a disaster . The emphasis has been taken away from the civilian. The need -- I must concur in the remarks of the Honourable Member for Radisson that the worry of a nuclear attack is probably diminishing, but one never knows if a P.lane should get off course , or if one of these things -- somebody turns a clock just a little bit wrong it might land in Mani toba, and it may never have been planned that way.

So that the cost that we have here , I think Feb ruary 21st, 1964. Page 347

(JHr, Steinkopf , cont'd) , , , , , it' s probably one of the best bargains that the province is getting, and certainly it's the last item on the Provincial Secretary's budget, and probably the best dollar one by comp arison, say, to a thing like we were talking to the Honourable Member for · Lakeside last night on Hansard, and I would strongly recommend that we approve this item . MR. MOLGAT : I want to thank the Minister for his answers .

I would like him to as well give me an answer on the sirens, whether or not they have been tested, because, as I mentioned I think, on the last test they had proved to be ineffective. I believe that last year the Minister had indicated to us that there was some talk about going into a home alarm system connected either with the electric system or with the telephone , I wasn't sure which, but some type of system which has been used in the United States, and I wonder if any progress has been ma de on this or whether he intends to go into it further.

I would like to correct my friend, the Leader of the NDP , as well , that I was not seeking an increase in the expenditure, rather I am seeking to make sure that we get good value for the money that we spend in this , And I think this has not always been the case because I don't think there was a real sense of direction and no clear-cut idea as to what it was that we wanted to accomplish in civil defence . Insofar as the use of the phone book, I visualized no added expenditures there as the book is in use in any case .

I wonder, too , if the Minister could tell us, how the recoveries are shared -- the $268 thousand shared between Canada and the municipali ties. What is the basis of the sharing there ? In other words , what load are muni cipalities carrying in th is? MR . PAULLEY: I wonder, Mr. Chairman -- I have one or two points along the line of the last remarks of the Honourable the Leader of the Opposition.

May I first of all say to the Provincial Secretary, I appreciate the fact that if you subtract $65 thousand from $52 thousand you have a net gain of about $12 thousand but I direct the attention of my hon ourable friend to another figure , namely, the total expenditure of $33 0, 67 4 for this purpose , so we 1 re not actually when we're talking of an expenditure for the overall question of -- what do they call it now , emergency measures -- we're not dealing with an insignificant figure of $65 thou sands of dollars , actually we 're dealing with a third of a million dollars for this purpose in the Province of Manitoba.

And I too, would like to hear from the Provincial Secretary as to a breakdown of the recoveries from the Dominion of Canada and also the municipalities -- I presume it' s Manitoba municipalitie s, While the Minister is doing this , I wonder whether or not he might be able to enlighten us as to other costs , because it' s my understanding the people of -- the taxpayer of Metropolitan Winnipeg -- are paying out a considerable sum of money for the purpose of emergency measures in civil defence.

It's my understanding that , subject to correction, that within Metropolitan Winnipeg orbit or council , there is another division for civil defence emergency measu res. Is this a duplication of what my honourable friend has in his estimates ? How much is this? If I recall correctly it was only a few days ago I saw an advertisement , Mr .

Ch airman, where on application, I believe it was to Metro, you just drop us a line or a card and we'll send you back a whole sheaf of leaflets telling you how to build your bomb shelter or reinforce your basement , or make provisions for larder down your basement and how you can have all your -- pardon -- (interjection) -- Even a liquor cabinet. I'm not sure of that, but how you can have your thermos flasks and the likes of that fully protected in the event of this .

Well , now this is the thing that my honourable friend the Provin ci al Secretary was saying, "we've got over this to a considera ble degree now, " but this is the same balderdash that they gave us fifteen years ago of the ne cessity of this, and they're still appealing to us to send them a card and they'll send us back the same blinking information that they'r e prepared to do at that time . Now I suggest, Mr. Chairman that there has been a change .

If it is just attempting to get rid of old literature that's been taking up space in basements and the likes of that , I'd say that well there's some useful purpose. But the last, the last bunch of informational bulletins that I saw was the same old tripe , and I want to know whether or not part of this expenditure is not for printings -- more of the guff that we've had in the past. MR. LEONARD A. BARKMAN (Carillon): Mr.

Chairman, I'd just like to add a few words in regard to this matter -- I'm sure the honourable minister does not need my assistance in speaking on behalf of this , but I couldn't resist, but wonder if it mig ht not be a good idea if the honourable membe r, the Leader of the NDP , and I think he has taken his course some time or other, I think he should go back and take it all over again , because I had the opportunity Page 348 Februar�-21st, 1964. • I

(Mr. Bar km an co1it' d� ....• of attending last September, I believe it was, and as he says , "the concepts and ideas have changed so much today, from possibly three or five years ago" and f()rtunately there's also some literature available -- it happens to be federal literature , but it is coming out and it's really up-to-date. · I have some at home and it's good.

On the other hand, I think this is one place where regardless of what political stripe, this is a place where we cannot spend too much too quick, espec ially with the new dangers possibly coming up; things they're building today right across the line, I think this could become very serious much sooner than we realize. I think we all know that you can't build up a civil defence just in that kind of a hurry and I believe we should keep at it until we have it as perfect as we can. MR . STEINKOPF: Thank you for the help. (Interjection) -- Yes , well that helps Mr.

Chairman , answering the money question first, the total amount expended by all is the $333 , 67 4 that's made ·up of $1 55 , 732 for just general head office and all the things that they do; and Metro Winnipeg, $92,5 00 ; and all the other municipalities bulked together, $8 5,4 42 ; a total of $333 ,67 4. 00 . Now, the municipal share of that when you work it out backwards is $1 7, 795; the federal share $254 ,0 00; provincial share $65 ,6 25; making a total of $333 ,6 74.0 0. So the Government of Canada and municipalities, the way it is there, is $268, 049 leaving a balance of $65,6 25. 00. Is that okay ? MR .

PAUL LEY: .••.. your figures jibe . MR . STEINKOPF : On the question of the sirens which the Honourable the Leader of the Opposition asked me . This is not within the scope of the Emergency Measures Organiza tion, it is in the hands of the army; there is rather an elaborate system, a telephone fan-out attack warning system tied in with our telephone system and it's four pages of how it works here , but it seems that it is working and it has been tested regularly by the army, but this is a matter for them . I don't have a detailed report here on it. MR . MOLGAT: Mr .

Chairman , I wonder if the Minister or possibly the First Minister, could give us some information on the very large and expensive headquarters that were established at Shilo for my honourable friends across the way .

I think the previous Federal Government are the ones who built this structure which we affectionately call "the mushroom factory", being a very large underground establishment and I would like to know from my honourable friend, whether the province has contributed anything to the cost of this structure; anything to the furnishings of this structure;· and whether the Provincial Government has tried it out as yet; and what their reactions have been? MR. STEINKOP F: This has all been paid for by the Federal Government and does not show or come into the estimates we have here.

As far as trying it out is concerned, I've been there and seen it. If that constitutes trying it out, why then it has been tried out, but it loo.ks to me as if it would be quite operative and very comfortable, too , in the event that an emergen cy arose . MR . MOLGAT : I wonder if my honourable friend could indicate to me , which accommo dation is supplied there? Which ones of the Cabinet Ministers are considered to be those who would have to go to that headquarters , and what exactly is the breakdown on. this structure?

I think this is important to the people of Manitoba as well, beca use should my honourable friends evacuate to that area and some of us want to get in touch with them , well we would want to know which minister is where. So , I wonder if he could indicate to us the system exactly of priorities. MR . STEINKOPF: .••.• definite part of the detailed civil defence plan. I think that they will have the say, rather than the Le ader of the Opposition as to which Ministers are dispen sable and which ones aren't.

But those that aren't provided for out there , and most of them will be , the balance are loca ted in another place which is at the moment still on the secret list as I understand it, and it may be a good thing for a lot of people not to know where certain Ministers are for quite a long period of time , MR . MOLGAT : Well, I presume I will not be able to get the information, Mr. Chair man , on the secret group. Co uld the Minieter indicate to me which group are scheduled for the "mushroom factory" at Shilo ? MR. CH ERNIAC K: Mr . Chairman, I suppose it's amusing to hear these comments that we've just heard.

I don't know whether the Honourable Memb�r from Ca rillon finds it amusing because he seems to take this seriously enough to say that "you cannot spend too much February 21 st, 1964. ;page 349

(Mr. Cherniack cont'd) •.... too quickly on this matter" and I'm inclined to feel that most of us feel that there is a limit to what you can spend and I'm inclined to think that the Le ader of the Official Opposition too , would

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Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	27-2-14
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	27th 2nd hansardpdf 14.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	a3b7151ae0a506dc2612c038180bdef30a55d40c

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