Manitoba Hansard — 24 April 1962 (Sitting 78, 26th Legislature, 5th Session)

26-5-78

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Legislative Assembly Of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Speaker The Honourable A. w. Harrison VoL VII No. 78 8:00 p.m. Tuesday, April 24, 1962. 5th Session, 26th Legislature Printed by R. S. Evans. Queen's Printer for the Province of Manitoba, Winnipeg

THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 8:00 o'clock, Tuesday, April 24th, 1962. MR. CHAIBMAN: Department XV, Resolution 88. MR. GROVES: Mr. Chairman, I was in the middle of a statement when the bell rang at 5:30. I was just wondering whether I should start all over again, or start where I left off. I had mentioned, Mr. Speaker, that some 20, 410 people had patronized these establishments since the legislation was passed prohibiting them, and I would like to say that when I first got these figures, they were challenged.

Somebody got the bright idea of dividing 20,410 by 14, which is the number of labs concerned, and saying that this was a ridiculous figure because it meant so many pairs of teeth per day and that these 14 labs couldn't produce that many. Well I had these figures re-checked -- and the books are available.. They were taken from the books of these laboratories and they maintain that they are correct. We have to keep in mind that at least one that I know of, and another that I don't know of personally, is a fairly large establish ment.

They have quite a number of employees and they can deal with a lot of these peopl e in the course of a day. Now I had expressed the fear that the Dental Association was going to close up these places of business some time after this House rose and that these people would then have no place to go except to the clinic which the dental profession has established and to the dental offices themselves which, because of the shortage of dentists and the limited facilities at the clinic, would not be ab1e to handle this increased volume of business.

Now the Legislature is in a position to cause this not to happen in one of three ways. First of all, by passing a bill similar to the one that was before us two years ago incorporating the technicians and allowing them, under the restrictions which they requested themselves to practice directly to the public. We could pass a resolution requesting that a committee of this House be set up to review this situation and to report to the next session of the Legislature.

We could amend The Dental Act and remove the section.that was put in three years ago which allows the Dental Association to do what they're doing today. We have to remember, Mr. Chairman, that when we are consid ering this, that the House was fairly evenly divided on this matter two years ago, and that many of the residents -- many hundreds -- many thousands of the residents of our province are still patronizing these establishments and will continue to do so, and in my opinion will continue to do so in ever-increasing numbers.

And at least until next year when the Denture Bill will be presented again to this House, I hope that the government and the Dental profession would get together and be reasonable about this matter in view of the large numbers of people that are involved. Referring back to the

article that I quoted from dealing with the private detectives, the Dental profession now has two full-time private detectives on their payroll doing this work and reporting to their solicitor. Since the bill we passed two years ago they have had, if I can re member correctly, three or four convictions. These convictions were for these laboratories having dental plates on their premises without a prescription from a dentist.

About two weeks after the House convened this year, I was informed that these two men were making the rounds of these establishments, warning the technicians that within a very short time, presumably - and this was the impression that was left with those that they visited -- after this House rose, that a drive would be put on to close all of these establishments and to close them up fairly quickly. This prompted the events which led up to my having a discussion with the Minister of Welfare and representatives of the Dental profession.

They advised us at that meeting that no special drive was contemplated to put these establishments out of business that quickly, but that the two men that were in their employ would continue to be employed and as they found evidence they would prosecute. Now, we then have two points of view.

We have the investigators visiting the laborator ies, telling them that there would be a drive put on to .close them up; and we have the point of view of the dentists themselves, who say that no specific drive would be put on to close these establishments but that they will carry on their efforts to keep these two men in their employ . and, as they found evidence to prosecute, they would prosecute. These two points of view mean the same thing, Mr.

Chairman, because the evidence that is needed to prosecute is easily ob tained, and it's easily obtained on practically a daily basis because these people are not yet April 24th, 1962 Page 2163

(Mr. Groves, cont'd) .•. , ... operating underground. They're operating in the open; they're . operating cautiously, of course; but they're still operating in the open. They openly admit it and they make no effort to hide it, even from the private detectives that have been hired by the Dental Society. People· continue to demand their services and they continue to serve them. So it's possible, Mr. Speaker, for these two people, by raiding these establishments daily, or even weekly, to get the evidence that they need without any difiiculty; to prosecute; and to even tually fine these people out of b11sm-e·ss.

Either fine them out of business or fine them under ground, or force them to hire dent.i'sts to act as fronts for their operation. Time, I think Mr. Chairman, will solve the problems that we have in this field and, by rushing it I feel that we can only do harm by forcing this issue at a time when these establish ments are being patronized by so many thousands of people in our province.

It appears that it will be rushed, and rushing it in my opinion will only stir up strenuous opposition on the part of the people whose livelihood is going to be taken away from them, and I might point out that this has been going on now for some 16 years and there are many in this field that have been carrying on this type of establishment for 16 years, and some longer. By rushing it, it will also stir up a storm of protest from the people that are patronizing these establishments and finding them satisfactory for their needs. I would regret that this should be necessary. The issue, as I said, Mr.

Chairman, is not dead. It will be back for the consideration of this House and, in the meantime, I appeal to the government and to the Dental profession no� to let this thing blow up into a war, as all indications are it will do; for if this happens, not only the technicians but the Dental profession, the dentists and the public will all suffer.

I do hope that the Minister of Welfare, as he is the one who has kept most closely in touch with this situation, will endeavour to arrange something with the Dental profession to allow this thing to not blow up into open war until such time as we have had a chance in this House to re-examine the whole situation. MR. CHAIBMAN: (a) -- pass? MR. SHOEMAKER: Mr. Chairman, I have one more question on social allowances.

I understand that presently if a single applicant has more than $499 in cash or liquid assets, or a married couple has more than $999 in liquid assets, that they do not qualify for social allow ance until it has been reduced to that amount. The question, Mr. Chairman, is: has there been any changes in that regard? MR. CHRISTIANSON: In answer to the question by the Honourable Member from Glad stone; the liquid assets are $200 per recipient up to a maximum of $1, OOO per family, Now I don't know -- there hasn't been any change. That was the original stipulation that was laid down.

However, I don't think it's quite right to just interpret it on that basis, because if a person has more than the minimum laid down, they are entitled to some assistance; but the amount they have in excess of the minimum reflects back on the amount of assistance -- if you follow me. In other words, it isn't a flat figure that if they have this, they're not entitled to any- thing a:t aJl; but if they have more than this, the amount of the social allowances is reduced to compensate for their excess of capital, whatever it may be. · There was one question I forgot to mention.

The honourable member was suggesting when he was talking this afternoon that, because of the increase in pensions, the net cost to the Province of Manitoba was reduced. I was talking about the cash allowances averaging $20 per person, but I forgot to mention that the net cost to the Province of Manitoba by the change in the pension from 55 to 65 is in excess of $200, OOO per year, because we pay more out in our half of the disability allowances and the old age assistance than we recover under our Social Allowances Act -- far more.

Now I'd just like to speak for a moment about the situation brought up by the Honourable Member for St. Vital. This clinic which he refers to, and is operated by the Dental Associa- tion, has been doing an excellent job in the past year and some that they have been in operation, and I think his figures on the number of people who have been referred there are fairly accurate.

However, I would point out that the Dental profession is quite prepared to stock this clinic to whatever level. is required to handle the number of people that come to them for assistance and if they require five dentists -- they presently have only one -- if they require five dentists to handle the work that is brought to them, they're quite prepared to do this. They are charging $85.00 a set -- a comp_l�te set -- for dentures, and these are fitted by a dentist and manufactured Page 2164 April 24th, 1962

(Mr. Christianson, cont'd) .. .•.•. in the laboratories of the persons who were licensed to manufacture dentures by this Legislature. The quality and the workmanship is of the highest an.d there is no stinting of quality in order to make the price at $85. 00. Now I'm told, and I have every reason to believe that it's true, that this price is at or below that presently charged by the majority of the dental mechanics who are working illegally and have been working illegally for s·qme number of years, as the honourable member was good enough'to point out.

This clinic is an effort by the Dental profession to meet a need in the com munity and I would like to commend them very highly for the effort they are making in this re gard, because it is a non-profit clinic and it has, in fact, been set up by them at considerable expense and is providing a very good service.

The availability is universal -- anybody can go and get this service; so if there are people who do not know of this service and are for this reason using other services, I can only say that this service is available and that the dentists are prepared to expand it to whatever degree is necessary to meet the needs in the community; and we will be meeting with them immediately after this session to discuss the expansion of this service to the.rural parts of the province. I wanted the Committee to have that information, Mr. Chairman. MR. J. M. FROESE (Rhineland): Mr.

Chairman, I have a few thoughts that I would like to utter and also to leave with the Minister. First of all, as most of the members will know, a new Home for the Aged is being constructed in Altona. It is nearing completion and they have received assistance from the government in the construction of the Home and, if I'm right, they are having open house this week for the general public to inspect and to view the Home for the Aged.

This Home is definitely an asset and a credit to the community, as such, and I'm sure the older people who will resid.e in the Home will be very appreciative of the surroundings that they will have in their new quarters; and I wish to thank the government for assisting in this matter. I have also a few other things that I thought I should bring up at this time. We notice from the estimates that the amount that is going to be spent on welfare ·and on social allowances is being increased from $6, 654, OOO to $8, 231, OOO, which represents approximately a 25% increase.

Likewise, the assistance for municipal aid expenditures is being increased from $1, 468,000 to $1,800,000, also approximately between 24% and 25% increase. I would just like to know from the Minister how long can we go at this rate, increasing welfare and social allow ances and still meet other needs as well. Secondly, it seems to me that we are centralizing our welfare efforts too much. Almost all of the welfare has been taken away from the municipalities for which they were formerly responsible for.

People in the local municipalities knew of the conditions that existed, they knew them first-hand, and I always felt that that was tle place the assistance should come from; and I would prefer seeing a program where the municipalities would receive more aid and that welfare would come through the local government rather than from the provincial. This neces sarily doesn't mean that we have to have as many different types of standard as· we have muni cipalities. I still think that the government could set the standard that they wished to be in effect and the municipal authorities could then carry them out.

It seems to me that the muni cipalities are playing an ever-decreasing role, or a minor role in the affairs of the local community, and I think this should be arrested and that more be given to them so that they could play a more important

part in this matter. MR. SHOEMAKER: Mr. Chairman, did I understand the Minister correctly when he said that, by reason of the recent increase in total disability pensions, blind persons pensions and so on, that it would cost the Manitoba Government $200, OOO a year annually -- that would be Manitoba's share of the increase. My point was that if this

article is correct, and if averag ing the pensions at $10. 00, that the province should be saving $45, OOO a month on their social allowances program or $540, OOO per year, so that if the figure that the Minister gave us a few moments ago of $200, OOO is correct, well then my point is that there is still a saving of some where around a quarter of a million dollars. MR. MORRIS A. GRAY (Inkster): Mr. Chairman, the last thing I would do is defend the Minister of the administration, but I'm afraid I am compelled to in connection with the remarks made by the Honourable Member for Rhineland.

God help the recipient if he has to go to his own municipality and ask for help. He knows the people; he's ashamed to go down there; they April 24th, 1962 Page 2165

(Mr, Gray, cont'd) ......... know him. I think it's bad enough for the provincial government to handle it and not to hand over to the municipalities to do it. Another one I'm very sorry to defend the Minister is on the remarks made by the Honour able Member from st'. James in con nection with the Dental mechanics .... MR. IDLLHOUSE: St. Vital. MR. GRAY: St. Vital, I'm sorry -- because we have threshed it out a year or two years ago for several years. No one stops them from preparing and doing their work in the lab, but I would not like to see that they go in to a patient's mouth without having a dental degree.

MR. IDLLHOUSE: Or washing their hands. MR. GRAY: Well they could wash their hands, but that doesn't mean anything. We have dentis.ts .and this government, and by the way the request of our group for years, have estab lished a Dental College here. Dentistry in the Province of Manitoba -- there is still .a shortage of it, and I think that we should encourage them in every way possible. But above everything else, �'m riot calling a plumber if I have appendicitis, I call a doctor.

They are maybe special ists in their own field, arid this is preparing the teeth in the lab that they are working in, but I would not like to seen an untrained, unqualified, a non-degree man to go and fit the teeth in a person's mouth, although it may be less money I don't know, but the health of the patient is more important. I apologize, Mr. Minister, for defending you. lVIR, CHRISTIANSON: I'd like to thank the Honourable Member from Inkster for coming to my assistance.

I would like to, however, join with the Member from Rhineland in commend ing the group in Altona who have been instrumental in building their very fine Ebenezer Home. It's a tremendous institution; it's a wonderful place; and I know that the people of Altona will give it the care and the attention that is required in order that it shall remilin a very fine home for their elder citizens. The Honourable Member from Gladstone has raised this question again. I would point out once more that the total increase in pensions occasioned by the increase from $55. 00 to $65. 00 is on the order of $450, OOO. 00.

However, the net saving under our social allowances grants -- cash allowances -- is only about $250, OOO;so the net cost, when it's all added up, comes out at about $200, OOO. 00, Now this is because not all of the people who are getting the extra $10. 00 in old age assistance or disability allowance were receiving $10. 00 under social allowances. Only some of those were, but they all received the increased pension -- every last one of them.

In fact, the average pension increase was greater than $10. 00 because with the calculations that are iiivolved. in setting the amounts of pension, if they have income slightly in excess, or assets slightly in excess of the maximum, the pension is reduced a little below the $55. 00 level. In fact in the old age assistance, the average pension was something like, if I remember correctly, $52. 00; and the average increase in pension is on the order of $11. 00 rather than $10. 00 in that particular case.

So you'll just have to believe me when I say that the net effect has been an increase in cost to the Province of Manitoba of something in excess of $200, OOO. 00. If this explanation hasn 1t been clear enoµgh, I'd be glad to go into it again. in my office at a later date. · MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Chairman, before we pass the Minister's salary, this afternoon I raised the question of Medicare cards and exemptions ·from hospital premiums. I contended in my remarks that if a person was exempted from paying hospital premiums, then automatic ally, that person should be entitled to a Medicare card.

The Minister pointed out that such was not the case. He pointed out that in respect of old age security, a person becoming 65 under a means test, there were certain financial conditions to be met before the old age assistance pension was met. Now I would like to know from the Minister where the line is drawn between that person who is entitled to become a recipient of a Medicare card as between that of a person who is only entitled to a hospital premium exemption. Where is the line drawn?

My honourable friend said this afternoon if he is a recipient of social allowances, then he automatically becomes entitled then, as I understood the Minister, to a Medicare card. Where is the line, and is there any specific amounts of money that the person concerned has, as income over and above the allowable allowance under old age assistance, which is taken into consideration before a person is granted a Medicare card. It seems to me, Mr. Chairman, that there is insufficient information as to where one starts -- or as to how one qualifies for a Medicare card. My colleagues have raised this point too.

I don't know if there is any such a leaflet or document Page 2166 April 24th, 1962

(Mr. Paulley, cont'd) .. .• •.••. available that one might use -- I haven't seen any advertise ments from the department where this line of dema rcation is, that a person must come under in order to receive a Medicare card, and I'd like to hear fully from the Minister in respect to this questici:J.; MR. LAURENT DESJARDINS (St. Boniface): Mr. Chairman, I'm sorry I missed part of the speech of the Honourable Member from St. Vital, and I'd just like to ask one question and make it clear before we pass this "item.

Is the member actually suggesting that a certain group of people should be encouraged, or at least allowed to break the law? I didn't quite get that. I got the answer from the Honourable Minister and he did mention that the Member from St. Vital had suggested that they were breaking the law. Now was that the nature of the speech of my honourable friend from St. Vital, that a certain group of people should be encouraged or at least allowed to break the law at the moment. MR. GROVES: Mr.

Chairman, the answer to that is that this has been going on for 16 years and it's been getting bigger every year, and up until two years ago -- by the bill that was passed in this House, we gave the Dental Association the responsibility for upholding the law -- nothing was done. MR. DESJARDINS: Mr. Chairman, I would still like to have an answer. This does not give me an answer -- what happened 17 years ago.

It is true that two years ago there was some change made and apparently both sides agreed to the change, and I'm wondering if he's suggest ing now that we should allow -- or close our eyes on a certain group of people breaking the laws of this province. MR. CHRISTIANSON: Mr. Chairman, I'd just like to correct one minor omission that the Honourable Member for St. Vital made.

I don't want to get into the middle of this fight at all, but the Dental Association has always had the responsibility for policing their act, as has always had all the other professional associations including the doctor s and the lawyers and all the rest of them. Each of the professional associations polices their own profession. This has always been the case and it has been the case for the last 16 years that I know of in Manitoba. The Honourable Leader of the NDP is still trying to equate our Social Allowances Act with the classiC impression of a means test.

Well I don't know how many times we have to tell him that there is no line of demarcation -- there is no line of demarcation -- there is no rigid inflexible· limit of income, high or low, against which a person is measured before he is el igible for social allowance. The only criterion is need. Now a person living in Winnipeg who has absolutely no resources, who is living in rented accommodation, has one level at which their income must be in order for them to maintain the basic necessities of life.

Now a chap living in the Village of MacGregor, for instance, who owns a small piece of property, who owns his own home, has another level of income that he requires to sustain himself in the basic necessities of life. Conversely, a mother with four children needs one level of income and a mother of eight children needs another level of income to sustain themselves in the basic necessities. This is the only criterion -- the need that exists in the particular case. There is no infilexible or rigid limit.

Now the federal government has said that if you have an income qualification for a single person of $1, 140, you automatically are entitled to a MHP hospital premium exemption. That doesn't mean that the person is in need necessarily, because if they have some resources in the way of living accommodations or what-not, they clearly have their basic needs met.

Now I can't disagree that a person who has been accustomed to a fairly high standard of living or even a slightly more than modest standard of living in their lifetime and then has to find them selves, through their own lack of foresight in providing for their old-age, or through misfor tune dependent upon the state to maintain them, that they're going to be completely satisfied with the level that we have set. But, Mr.

Chairman, we must have full regard for the resources that we have available to meet these people's needs, and the Honourable Member for Rhineland pointed out that the increase is pretty substantial. Now we feel -- and it was mentioned this afternoon that some of our regulations had been changed and they have been. They were changed, and were in the process of being changed, prior to the change in the pensions. We changed the comforts allowance for people who were not living in the homes of relatives or in institutions, because we felt that this was a clear case April 24th, 1962 Page 2167

(Mr. Christianson, cont'd) .......• of special need. We changed the rent allowances for people ,who are living in heated accommodations because, here again, these people were not having their needs met. Since the change in pensions, we have instituted further a pretty thorough study of our calculations - the calculations that were used in arriving at the basic allowances for food, for clothing and for shelter, in conjunction with the Department of Health, and we will be reviewing the other spects of that as soon as this study has been completed.

But the honourable members have got to understand that we don't have a rigid inflexible income limit against which a person is measured before they can be classified as in need or entitled to social allowance. We meet the need as we find it, and in many cases people have Medicare cards and their incomes may be considerably in excess of the disability or the old age assistance income limitations set by the federal government, I say again, Mr.

Chairman, it is dealt with on an individual basis because this is the most economical way it can be done and this is the only way it can be done to maintain the dignity and the pride of the individual applicant. MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Chairman, my honourable friend -- I don't know whether I'll have to write him a letter or whether he'll have to write me one.

The previous Minister of Health and Welfare and inyself used to have considerable arguments in this House on the terminology "means test" or "needs test." The previous Minister of Welfare used to tackle me because I referred to this problem as that of a means test and used to tell me, figuratively speaking, that I was all wet; that you don't apply a means test at all, it's simply a needs test. And now my honourable friend rambles off into the realm of social allowances every time I've raised this particular point today.

Now I want ta read for his edification his own, report, on Page 22, which deals with the question of the payment of assistance to persons in the age group 65 to 69 on a means test basis. MR. CHRISTIANSON: Mr. Chairman, on a point of order, privilege or something - isn •t that the report of the Pensions Branch, Mr. Chairman? MR. PAULLEY: This is the report, Mr. Chairman, the Annual Report of the Depart ment of Welfare and it is the report of the Old Age Assistance and Blind Allowances in the report. MR. CHRISTIANSON: Exactly, Mr. Chairman. Now before he gets carried away, I would like to point out ..... . MR.

PAULLEY: I'm not going to get carried away. MR. CHRISTIANSON: •..... that this is the

section of the Welfare Department that is administered in accordance with the regulations laid down by the federal government and this is the area that covers the MHSP exemptions -- you see? Now Medicare is not a federal instru ment. Medicare is a provincial instrument and it comes under The Social Allowances Act - you see? There's two little bits of pieces there. MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Chairman, I'm perfectly aware of all the points raised by my honourable friend.

I'm arguing this, and I would suggest this, that our federal authorities are not the over-generous authority and they have applied -- they have applied in respect of people between the ages of 65 and 70, a means test to establish as to whether· or not they should be entitled to a pension prior to receiviil� the social security pension at the age of 70.

They have said that a person who is in receipt of this old age assistance, as they call it, between the ages of 65 and 69 inclusive, that because of their need or their lack of need, they therefore become entitled ta receive free hospital premiums because they haven't got the income, at least in theory, to pay hospital premiums.

Now then, let my honourable friend have that firmly in his mind first, that on the basis of a means test an investigation is made into the financial circumstances of these people and, after that investigation has been made on the awarding of a pension, the people are granted ex emption from the payment of hospitalization premiums. True, the regulations are those of the federal government and the cost of this is paid jointly on a 50-50 basis between the provincial authority and that of the federal authority. Now my contention is, notwithstanding that, Mr.

Chairman, that after these people have once gone through a means test insofar as their finances are concerned in respect of hospitalization premiums, they should not then have to undergo - and to use, so that I don't get into difficulties with my honourable friend the Minister of Health -- undergo a needs tes� to ascertain as to whether or not they should receive Medicare, because Page 2168 April 24th, 1962

(Mr. Paulley, cont'd) • , ..•.• to use a phraseology that my honourable friend's report states, that it is at this age that the requirement for medical care is increased. Let me repeat that phrase once again that is used in this in respect of medical care so that the words are not mine. "The Medicare aspect" -- and this is the phrase in my honourable friend's report -- "the medicare aspect of the social allowances program continued to be the most significant part of the services. Especially among the aged is this noted.

Elderly people value highly the medicare card which relieves them of the continuing anxiety of existing or feared medical, optical, dental and drug costs." Again, so that there's no misunderstanding, "First of all, the people in the age group between 65 and 69 go under a means test to establish whether or not they're entitled to receive a pension under The Old Age Assistance Allowances Act" -- and then my honourable friend says, and he agrees with me -- "and then they are in receipt of an exemption for hospital ization premiums. 11 I say it is an injustice to these people that, having once established their means under the means test that they should receive at this particular age a pension, that they should not have to undergo another needs test.

Again, so I don't get into difficulty with the Honourable George Johnson, in order to receive a Medicare card, because if it is recognized under The Old Age Assistance Act which is federal, they should not have to further qualify for one of the most important aspects of health care, namely, the medical care under The So cial Allowances Act of the Province of Manitoba. If your act was accomplishing what it should be accomplish ing, then once a person is established as being exempt from the payment of hospital premiums, I suggest, Mr. Chairman, that they should automatically become entitled to a Medicare card.

This is the point that I wish to establish. MR. SHOEMAKER: Mr, Chairman, I think that it would be very helpful to the committee, and in particular to the Leader of the NDP, and it would answer his question, I suggest, if the Honourable Minister would tell us the maximum amount of cash assets you can have and qualify for Medicare; the maximum cash assets or liquid assets you can have at age 65 and still qualify for Old Age Security; and the maximum amount of cash or liquid assets you can have at age 70 and still qualify for premium exemptions.

If we had an answer to those three, it would, to some degree, answer the question that has just been raised by the Leader of the NDP, because as I unders"tand it now, in order to qualify for Social Allowance a recipient cannot have more than $200 in liquid assets or $1, OOO for the entire family. I understand that it is quite possible for a married person to have liquid assets of at least $5, OOO at age 65 and still qualify for total disability pension if he has no other income.

I understand that you can qualify for premium ex emption at age 70 if you have no more than $1, OOO so the whole point is that there's three Means Tests. I'm not saying they are right but there are three, and I think if the Honourable Minister would admit that and tell us that in effect there are three different tests applied in the three different categories, that probably we wouldn't be satisfied but we would have the answer. MR. FROESE: Mr. Chairman, I have a few more things that I wish to ask the Minister at this time. First of all, I would appreciate getting an Annual Report of the Department of Wel fare.

I notice the other leaders got one and I think I should be entitled to get the information as well. Secondly, does a case which is entitled to social allowances receive the same amount of allowance whether they are in the rural or an urban or city area if the need is the same -- if it's identical? Is there a discrepancy as between the amounts that they receive in social allowance whether they're rural or urban? I'd also like to ask the Member for St. Vital a question through the Chair, if I might, and that is whether the denture clinics are running ads advertising their services and their locations.

I would like to know about it. MR. CHRISTIANSON: Mr. Chairman, I'm sorry about this report business. I should have answered it this afternoon. There is no printed report of the Department of Welfare be cause we haven't been in business long enough as a separate department. The Department of Health will be printing the report as a part of their report for fiscal '61-62. We will be print ing our own reports for fiscal 162-63. Now the reports that were tabled were for the calendar year and were

summary reports -- a statistical report only. I'm sorry that the Honourable Member for Rhineland didn't get a copy and I hope to be able to give him one tomorrow. We tabled, I think, 4 copies and there should ;have been one for each leader of a Party. Now I would just like to read a paragraph from the regulations for the Honourable Mem ber from Gladstone. I'm sorry he's not in his seat but perhaps somebody could relay the April 24th, 1962 Page 2169

(Mr. Christianson, cont'd) .•.•....•. message to him when he comes back in.

Section 6 (1) of the regulations dealing with The Social Allowances Act: "In determining whether or not an ·applicant is eligible to receive social allowance the director shall take into account, according to the circumstances and needs of the applicant, the total cost of the basic necessities of the applicant and his dependents, from which he shall deduct the financial resources of the appli cant and his dependents, and if the cost of the basic necessity is in excess of the financial resources, he may pay an allowance." Now I suggest that's perfectly clear.

To go back to the Honourable Leader of the NDP, what he says is quite true and I re gret very much that it isn't possible to set up one department to administer all - in fact to do away with the old age assistance and blind pension and the disability pension and simply admin ister it all through The Social Allowances Act.

If all the other provinces andManitoba had a similar type of social allowances legislation with respect to what we have here in Manitoba, I think that it wouldn't be too hard to talk the federal government into doing this, because they know as well as we know that the most sensible way to handle welfare is the way it is being han,dled in Manitoba, on an individual needs basis. Now this has been the experience all through the United States.

There are reams of statistical information available for the members of test cases that have been carried on in particularly depressed areas of the United States, and in every case where public welfare has been administered on an individual basis with trained people, the result has been a net decrease in the cost of the welfare burden.

Now the point that the honourable member is raising is certainly a valid one, but if you look at it from the other side for a moment, what he is saying in effect is that if a person has the income qualifications that entitles him to an old age assistance pension, then. they should automatically be entitled to a medicare card. But what happens about the person whose basic needs are in excess -- are in excess of the income qualifications? Say they are $1, 142 a year. What happens to him? Does he not then get a social allowances card?

In Manitoba he can not only get a social allowance, a medicare card, but he can also get a hospital premium exemption -- you see?

One other point -- and I really think that the argument of the honourable member is kind of a technical, semantic argument that in practice isn't really too valid, because if a person, when they are making application for disability pension -- and you must remember that these things are laws of the land that have been in force for many, many years and are fairly deeply ingrained in the people of the province -- these have been rights that they have come to know, as the Old Age Security Pension at age 70 is a right that everyone has come to know and accept as their dividend for reaching the age of 70.

Our Social Allowances Act is relatively new and not all people are aware of it, although I must confess that most of the members of the House are very diligent in carrying the message to all corners of the province and I commend them for it.

But the thing is, that a person who applies for a disability allow ance -- their application, if they feel that the disability allowance, after talking to the pension investigator, the welfare worker in the pensions branch, that their disability pension will not be sufficient to meet their needs; that they require further help; all they have to do is indicate that they want their application considered as a social allowance application and it will be for warded directly over to the Department of Welfare and will be dealt with hi the normal fashion, and having once been interviewed by a worker and the form properly filled out, there is usually no problem in completing the application.

Now the honourable member shakes his head, and I couldn't agree more that it is unfortunate -- it is unfortunate that we have these two categories, but until the recently announced program of the federal government in research and training starts to bear fruit and starts to make itself felt in all the areas across Canada, I really don't think it will be possible to meld these two programs together. Now we hope and we believe that in the not too far distant future we may be able to work it all through one.

We are presently, in fact, working it through the offices in the country; we hope in Winnipeg, too, to be able to work it all through one office; but really the accounting provisions that are required by the federal government in the report that we must make to them -- I was going to say onerous -- they are quite detailed and it's far and above what is required in the social allowances category so it hasn't been prudent -- I thirik is the proper word -- to meld the two programs together just yet.

But we hope that we will be able to accomplish this, and when that day come.� it's very probable that almost all of the people who qualify for a Page 2170 April 24th, 1962

(Mr. Christianson, cont'd) ...•.. pension will qualify for Me dicare, as they do nearly all now. MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Chairman, my honourable friend keeps beclouding this issue. Why he brings in the question of if everybody else, if every other province had the same Social Allowances Act as we have, there would be no problem and then we would have a joint scheme. Heavens to Betsy, our particular party has been fighting for this for years and my honourable friend says that if we adopt the suggestions of the federal party of his, then we'll have this. I suggest, Mr.

Chairman, if we have to wait as long with his party. to bring this in as we did with the party to my right, the people are going to go without Medicare cards for a long time. But the point I want to raise, Mr. Chairman, is simply this, and this is where my honourable friend is beclouding the issue when he brings in the question of other provinces: The fact of the matter is, Mr. Chairman, that we've got here in Manitoba this Act which my honourable friend the former Minister of this Departm ent, and also the present Minister, holds up to us as the model for all of Canada.

He says it's the fact -- the back benchers -- particularly the whip over there says it's a fact. The fact of the matter still remains, Mr. Chairman, that despite the beclouding of my honourable friend the Minister, we have

an Act in Manitoba that is supposed to provide Medicare cards for those over 65 and in need and we don't have to wait and we shouldn't have to wait if this legislation is a model for all of Canada -- for all the rest of Canada to adopt this model before the people who have already undergone a means test to receive Medicare cards.

What about the people over 70 who are only in receipt of $65. 00 a month in respect of old age security pension who, on application, because of their lack of financial ability, simply make an application -- and it's almost as simple as that, I give to the credit of the government -- in respect of exemption for hospitalization premiums. I think I'm basically correct when I say it's almost a question of simply making an application, and the exemption for hospital premiums is granted recognizing, Mr.

Chairman, the inability to pay a hospital premium of $2. 00 per month in respect of a single person, or $4. 00 in respect of a family. Now then I say that if they're entitled to receive that exemption it's an indication of their need for the foregoing of hospitalization premium and should therefore be automatically entitled to the other part of health care, namely a Medicare card, It's just as simple as that. We have got the Act. My honourable friends opposite say it's the model for Canada -- if not for the North American continent.

I say put your model into actual effective use and grant to these people who have undergone these means tests -- all of them -- a Medicare card because they need that even more, in many cases, than they need hospitalization. MR. CHRISTIANSON: If they need the Medicare card they get it. . . . . . . • . . . continued on next page April 24th, 1962 Page 2.171

MR . GUTTORMSON: Mr. Chairman, a matter of considerable concern to me is the plight of the Metis and the Indian in my constituency and perhaps I should say throughout the whole province. I was very interested in the program that was undertaken at MacGregor last year where assistance was provided for some of the Metis people in that district. I'm just won dering what plans the government has to expand this program to the people in other areas of the province.

I know some members of this House have probably visited the Metis in their homes and seen the conditions in which they live but I'm sure that some of the members have not, and it's a very depressing situation when you see -- go into homes with dirt floors, the wind whistling through the walls, no chairs, no tables, no beds for them to sleep on. These people are living under very extreme hardship. I know I feel very helpless when I go into these areas and talk to these people and if they seek help.

I just wonder what encouragement the Minister can give me to offer these people when I see them again, in the way of assistance, be cause I think that the Minister is proud of what happened in MacGregor and I think that perhaps he's got good reason to be. Anything I've heard about this particular area has been very favour able. Now I understand from news reports that this is a program that is to be enlarged. I wonder if he could tell us tonight what he has in mind? MR . CHRISTIANSON: Mr.

Chairman, the best encouragement that can be given to the Metis people of Manitoba is to support the community development program of this department, but the essential feature of this community development program is that the people themselves are the instrument by which their lot is improved. Too often in the past has a department of government gone out and said: "We're going to do this for you," and these people have not, in many cases, responded to this kind of treatment, because it's more in the nature of a gift and it requires no conscious effort on their part.

Now I think this is not true so much of the Metis, because I think that nothing has been done for them in the past, but it is true of the Indians in the community. Now the important thing, before any housing project can be started, is that you must have the whole-hearted support of all the people in that particular community before it has any chance of success, because if they're not all in favour of it and not all willing to make the effort and the sacrifice that is required, it won't succeed -- it just won't succeed. This is a thing that has been demonstrated time and time and time again.

These people in the situations that my honourable friend is talking about are at a very low cultural and social level. Things that we take for granted have to be, by them, learned and learned almost as you would learn a skill.

It's difficult to believe but this, nevertheless, is true and until these people are willing to accept the fact that there's something -- I was going to say ennobling but that's not really the right word -- that it's better to live in a house with a wooden floor and to have chairs and tables and a bed to sleep in -- that this is a better way of life and that it's worth the effort that's required to be able to sustain this standard of living, there really isn't too much point in pouring money in.

However, when people do come.to this point, and we are working with a great many groups of the province -- the community development officer we have at Grand Rapids is working down through the Fairford area and will be working down through the Fair ford area this summer -- Joe .Dufore, stationed at Camperville, has been working mainly with the Camperville, Duck Bay and Pine Creek Indian Reserve -- but he will be working .as far north as the Shoal River, Pelican Rapids area and down into the Ebb and Flow area. I think that this is bordering on the territory of my honourable friend.

We also hope to -- well we have now a man in Winnipeg who is looking after MacGregor and making visits to other Metis communities within a radius of Winnipeg and, while we expect to transfer him out to another area, we will be bringing another man into Winnipeg and we hope to continue this particular program in the southern parts of the province as well. But it isn 1t enough to just say, well we 're going to do something in this community. The community first has to be prepared for it and it has to be willing to make the effort itself.

Now this maybe sounds like a pretty altruistic and far-fetched approach but it's an education al process and it's not the ordinary type of education that the child learns in school. It's an education in learning how to live in the community that they're a part of. In MacGregor one of the problems has been that some of the fellows there still believe pretty strongly in the pow er of one man to cast a spell or a curse on another.

One of the reasons they have lived in widely separated spots is because the cursing power varies inversely as the distance between them and, while this is difficult to believe in this day and age, it's nevertheless a fact. Now Page 2172 April 24th, 1962

(Mr. Christianson, cont'd.) •••• these people -- there have been a great many kids in Mac Gregor and yet they've been living not too far from school, who have never been to school - children of 15 and 16 years of age that maybe got Grade 1, because they have never thought of it as important that the child should go to school regularly.

It's a tremendous problem and the only way it can be done is through patient, diligent work in the area and with the particular group, and as soon as we are able to bring a group to the point where they will respond, where they will make an effort and we think there is a chance of success, why we are quite prepared to make whatever efforts are required, to put up whatever sums of money are required, to al leviate their lot, and in this connection I want to give full marks to the Department of Indian Affairs because they've been helping us 100% in this project and are sharing our program on a 50/50 basis right down the line.

MR . GUTTORMSON: Mr. Chairman, I realize this is a very difficult problem. I just wish that I was capable of giving the Minister a solution to end this problem, but I regret that I can't do this. But as I said before I'm very interested and I'd like to know -- if the Minister could tell me -- hei mentioned that in order for such a program to succeed in an area, that the people themselves and the people in the area must make a contribution. What contribution did the people in MacGregor make in order to make that particular project a success? MR .

CHRISTIANSON: Well over quite a long period there were meetings between the community development officer and the group at MacGregor. There were two groups there. There was a group on No. 1 Highway, immediately north of MacGregor, and the group a mile east of MacGregor and some distance south of No. 1 Highway, and this was by way of a pilot project if you like. The actual contribution made by the people in that area was 150 hours of labour from each person. This was their actual contribution -- 150 hours of labour. MR . GUTTORMSON: White people? MR.

CHRISTIANSON: No, no, the people for whom the houses were being built. The Town of MacGregor and the municipality bought the land that the project was built on and that was the contribution of the municipality and the village. The money was advanced by the pro vincial government, shared 50/50 with the Department of Indian Affairs and the recovery will be -- these people are being charged a rent of 10% of their income. Now this may seem like a nebulous sort of an arrangement but already we are having fairly good success.

One of the men from that community has just two or three weeks ago gone up to Thompson and has se cured work up there and three of them were working in Portage in the last little while, and two or three of the people who have resided in this community -- strangely as it may seem - have had full-time occupation, full-time work in the Village of MacGregor. And this is another of the very difficult to understand facets of this whole program.

So while this may not seem like a very large contribution on behalf of these people, we had first of all the willingness of the people to attempt the project and we had the odd backslider too as I mentioned before. But the majority of the people were willing to try it and they were willing to make the effort and to date our faith in them has been justified. MR . GUTTORMSON: Mr. Chairman, as I understand the Minister then, the contribu tion of the people, that is the municipality of MacGregor, was the land acquired for the pro ject. Is this correct?

But I have a different problem in my area because where my Indian and Metis people are located in unorganized territory, and some of these areas -- there are very few white people around even to offer advice -- and I wonder if the Minister could assist me in-how I could tell these people to get such a project in their own area started because we have no municipality to make any contribution at all. It would have to be forthcoming from the government. And while I'm on my feet, before the Minister answers, I think it only fitting that we pay tribute to Jean Lagasse, the man who has been working with these people.

I think he's done a terrific job in assisting these people and I'm sure it's been through his terrific interest and sincerity in this work that this program is taking effect. And I'd like to use the Fairford Re serve as an example. Would the Minister tell me how those people can get help in that particu lar area? As you know, they're an unorganized territory; there's no municipality to make any contribution. If anybody makes a contribution, I think it'll have to be the government themself because they own the land. MR .

CHRISTIANSON: Well in the case of MacGregor, of course, there was no April 24th, 1962 Page 2173

(Mr . Christianson , cont' d.) ... . unorganized or unowned land or provincial gove rnment land near enough to the sch ool and this, of course, was the important thing that the community had to be built near enough so the people could go to school . And it required a fair amount of mon ey to buy the land required to build these houses on . The Fairford people have already been in touch with the Department of Comm unity Development and I think that this is a developing pro cess.

I understa nd that they have formed a commit tee in this area, a local commit tee, and are making the first efforts at se lf-improveme nt . And I'm sure that when they get to the point where we can feel that they are able to carry the project through, they will be able to be given every considera tion, and in this case because there's no problem with land , as you point out, it's unorganized or Crown land .

The financial considerations , if you like, won't be nearly as severe or as difficult as they were at MacGregor beca use it was a very difficult thing and this held the project at MacGregor up for some months -- the actual purchasing of the land . Sever al people didn't want to sell this land near enough to town . We had quite a battle and eventually they bought a piece of ground that was not as big as they would have liked to have had for the project. However, it seemed to be am ple and events have since justified the decision .

I mentioned our Director, Jean Lagasse, this afternoon and I cert ainly concur ' and would go even further to say that we are very fortunate to have a man of his capabilities running this departm ent . He is a leader in this field, I think I'm safe in sa ying, in North Amer ica, he's certainly a leader in this field in Ca nada, and we 're very proud of his efforts and the efforts of all the people in his department, because he has done a wonderful job in training the men who are working for him . · , MR. GUTT ORMSON: Mr .

Chairman, well then, do I understand correctly then that if the people of Fairford, we'l l use them as a case in point for this discussion, show sufficient in terest to start a project of their own , the gove rnment will provide the land and, as I understand, they will provide the material for the homes . Is this correct? And the people will be expected to pay 10% of their ear nings back towards the gove rnment to pay back for the cost of the materi als used in such a proje ct . Could the Minister tell me ,· are they sort of bound, or any contract, or that they must pay this then over a period of years ?

What happens in periods of unemploy ment ? MR. CHRISTIANSON: Well the ar rangement is that the 10% applies for five years after which they will receive title to their homes. In the case of MacGregor, half the people are trea ty Indians, half are non-t reaty and the federal gove rnment , in times of unemployme nt, will be paying their rent for them , and this will be one way that we will recover some of the costs . I wouldn 't make any commi tments as far as any other area goes . The decision in every ca se will be the directo r's .

It is up to him to decide on the individual merit of the case -- what the possibilities are for the project being success ful. Because in this kind of business, a failure in one area can be very, very disastrous . The essential thing is to build up the confidence of these people in their own ability to make the effort required, and if you move to precipitously, if you move too quickly, try to rush them along , you find that they won't go with you . They won 't make that effort and then it's just money down the drain .

Whethe r we agree with this at first hearing it -- I agree that it may seem like a pretty far-fetched sort of an idea -- but neve r theless this has been the experience; it's been the experience in Puerto Rico, in Africa, in many other areas -- South Ame rica, in many othe r areas of the world . And if the people ever start to move though , it move s at a pretty good rate . I would point out the experience in Berens River. That started with a makeworth project last summer to clear some land for an emergency airstrip in an area where they could grow some grass or hay for their livestock.

Following that, it was the organization of the Producers Co-Op. Now those fellows were out there chopping wood all winte r long . Now it wasn't a very highly paying proposition beca use those fellows -- the economics of the thing and the best con tract we could get for hauling the pulp out of that remote area by barge -- only left those people about $5 . 50 a cord for cutting the wood. Now if a fellow can cut three cords of wood a day that's not too bad; he 'll make $15 . 00 a day -- $16 . 50 a day. But the experience there has been that they are not able to cut that much wood.

In fact, they were lucky if they got up as high as a cord a day so we had men out working in snow up to their thighs and putting in long hard days makin g $5 .50 a day. Now this is not a very princely wage , it's true . But they were making as much or more money as they had ever made in any similar occupation and the point was that Page 2174 April 24th, 1962

(Mr. Christianson, cont'd. ) •... they made the effort themselves . The commi ttee of 12 that ran it -- they had $500 that they collected amongst themsel ves, put it in a kitty. They bought six power saws . They decided who used the power saws; they decided on how the thing was go ing to be run themselve s; we didn't. We helped and advised them but they did the work and they ma de the decisi ons . They ma de the hard decisi ons as well as the easy ones. Well the project has been succes sful and I think it has been an inspiration to a lot of other people around Lake Winnipeg. MR . GUTTORMSON: Well, Mr.

Chairman, one of the problems as the l\'linister knows, and as I say I'm dealing again with the Fairford area -- this is a case in point because I know this is typical of so many areas -- there is �o employment and these people are at a loss to find work .

When the officers of your department are ass isting these leaders of these com munities is this ma tter taken into considera tion that they should maybe loc ate in an area where employment would be easier to obtain, because I know, and I'm not suggesting that these people mo ve away from Fairford, but I do know this that employment isn't easy to obtain in that par ticular locale and I just wonder if this is one of the problems that we should consider when we 're doing this . MR . CHRISTIANSON : Yes . Well this is why I say that each one of these cases has to bi; on its individual merit.

There's no point in building a village where there's no reason for a village being there . It certainly isn •t going to do the people any good; it isn't going to do the program any good at all . You've got to try and set these people in an economic surrounding where they do have an opportunity to make a livelihood. Now at MacGregor , you see, they're on No . 1 Highway; there's a large farming com munity around there; there's a good demand J;or summer labour; there's a good. dem and for casual labour and it looked as if there was enough economic activities for them . .This may not be the case at Fairford.

It may be decided that they should mov e 10 or 15 miles or ma ybe even further. But this is the decision that all the people have to ma ke and they have to come to the point where they're willing to make the de cision on their own . You can't force a decision like this on anybody . The decision has to be made by the people themsel ves acting freely. So this is just one of the ma ny ramifications that you get into when you start setting up one of these types of projects . MR. JOHN P. TANCHAK (Emerso n:): Mr . Chairm an, I'm just going to ask two ques tions . One is deal ing with treaty Indians .

I understand that the Minister indicated that the treaty Indians are not covered by soc ial allowanc es but since we're discus sing this subject I think this would be in order . And I wonder -- in my constituency there is a co-op effort in its initial stages of planning. The Indians are interested in ma rket gardening and also probably growing strawberries and so on, and I wonder if the government is prepared to help them in the form of gardens and financially to get this movement started. I think it would be very ideal there. The soil is just right for it. But that's my first question.

Well my seco nd question is : The Minister also indicated that The Social Allowances Act has not fully been proclaimed yet. There's mothers who have been neglected -- neglected mo thers who have to wait a year and mo thers whose husbands are in gaol have to wait a year . I wonder whether the Minister could indicate when the balance of this Act will be proclaimed by the government? MR. CHRISTIANSON : We haven't proclaimed the balance of the Act with respect to treaty Indians because treaty Indians are still fully the responsibility of the federal government.

At least they are still fully looked after by the federal government. We do, however, any off treaty Indian, any Indian person who has lost treaty status, is accorded the full rights and privileges of any other perso n in the province. And with regard to helping the people in that area to improve the ir economic status, this is precis ely the objects of the Commu nity Develop ment Corporation -- precisely .

And I might say that beyond that the Department of Agricul ture, the Department of Industry and Commerce, the Department of Mines and Resources have given us whatever aid and assis tance we have asked for on any of these particular projects .

And I indicated this afternoon, I thought pretty fully, that we would be decl aring the remaining sections of The Social Allowances Act just as soon as we were able to . -- (Interjection) - Well, if the honourable member looks at the case loads in the report that his Leader has and if he looks at the increases in spending and if he has been listening to the complaints about de lays in processi ng applications, he will realize that the problem is still a large one. MR . MOLGAT: Mr . Chairman, coming back to the MacGregor construction of homes, April 24th, 1962 Page 2175

(Mr . Molgat, cont' d.) ...• a project with which I heartily agree -- in fact my interest in it is seeing that it's expanded to other areas . The Minister indicated that the ma tter of employ ment is an important one before a decision is ma de on the location of new construction, with which I also completely agree because this is the perennial problem at the moment with a good number of our reservations and the group that always live on the outside of reservations who are not treaty Indians but are principally the problem of the province .

Insofar as MacGregor is concerned, the department analyzed the situation there beforehand and found that there were suitable employment possibilities in MacGregor before proc eeding with construction. Is that correct? MR . CHRISTIANSON: Well the member will appreciate that I wasn't in the department when the decision was ma de . I think they agreed that there was a reasonable potential . Now, of course, if you didn't build the houses there or if you didn't relocate the people into the vi cinity of MacGregor, where would you locate them ? These people had been living there in shacks , by choice , for a long time.

The oldest one , I am told, was living there for som ething in excess of 50 years . Fie would go away for awhile and he would come back again. In that particular case I don't really think there was any alternative than to locate these people there .

Now I would point out, too, that one or two of the people have had pretty full-time empl oyment in the Village of MacGregor and that they have been able to get a fair amount of casual farm labour in the area, but how fully -- I think I, knowing the workings of the Commu nity Develop ment Department, I think that they realized that it wasn't an ideal situation -- that if they could have persuaded the people that they should move som ewhere else where every man would have au tomatically had a job; they certainly would have done it, but it was the best situation that was available under the circumstances and it was a solution that offered a very good ·chance of success and I would point out that, to date, this has been subst antially true .

It has been meeting with a good deal of succ ess . MR . MOLGAT: Mr. Chairman, the department then, I presume, will continue to expand this program . Could the Minister indicate what other areas he contemplates proceeding with housing this year? MR . CH RISTIANSON: There are no other areas that are yet progressed to the point where I would want to make a statement that there will be something proceeded with this year . Now these things can develop fairly rapidly.

As I pointed out we have a man in Winnipeg who has been working in the area around Winnipeg; we hope, not in 162-63 but in 163-64, to appoint at least one, and perhaps two, more commu nity development officers in the southern part of the province to cover the other areas down around Brandon, up Amaranth way and up into the Interlake and in the eastern and southeastern parts of the province, but this is a program where one must make haste very slowly. You can't force it .

The people have to go at their own speed and while they may decide that it would be very nice to have a new hom e, they must be prepared to make the sa crifices and the efforts that are required. But I can assure the hon ourable member that we will be working and doing our utmost to stimulate them , as we are do ing, and we're very encouraged with the success we are meeting. I would say, too, that the Department of Indian Affairs is following our approach very closely, are working very closely with us .

We hope to be able to convene a conference between the federal government and our selves as soon as pos sible to discuss all the ramifications -- education, health and all the rest of it -- as it applies to Manitoba so, while I don't want to make any spe cific statements about areas that we are going to move into, I think I can safely say that by this time next year we will have undertaken quite a few more of these projects . MR . MOLGAT:. Mr .

Chairman, I'm frankly disappointed that the Minister has not got some more projects in the works for this year, having made an excellent start on MacGregor along No . 1 highway and I think he's aware that there are a lot of other areas in the province where this same problem exists . I would like to have some more information on the MacGreg or project before I carry on with other comm ents that I have in this regard. There were 13 homes built at MacGregor . Could the Minister indicate how many families here were treaty Indians and how many were non-treaty? MR . CH RISTIANSON : Yes, they were about half and half.

Now I think there are still two or three homes to go and those belong to the people who lived on the north side of the high way who are non-treacy Indians . The Roulettes, who were mostly treaty Indians lived east of Page 2176 April 24th, 1962

(Mr . Christianson, cont' d.) .... MacGregor, have all been moved into the new hom es and we recently purchased a home just south of the area in which the homes were built . Now I'm a little surprised at the honourable member for being imp atient with it . We certainly have made a pretty substa nti al start in this program and I must frankly sa y we 're star ting from a long ways back -- a long ways back. MR . MOLGAT: Mr . Chairman. , I'm really not too concerned how far back the Minister had to go . The point is that during 1961 he did something .

During 1962 he tells the committee that he has no project on hand . Now I'm wondering why the gap; why was he able to do some thing in '61; why has he nothing planned for 162 . That 's the problem that I see beca use he, I am sure agrees, that there is a substantial problem, not only at MacGregor, it exists in many other parts of the province . And what I am surpri sed at is that he has no project -- having got this plan under way -- that he has no project for '62. MR . CHRISTIANSON : Mr . Chairm an, the white man has been in Manit oba and Manitoba has been a province since 187 0.

Nothing has been done before for the Metis people in any sub stantial or organized way . We were not in office, Mr . Chairma n . We were sitting in Oppo sition -- (Interjecti on) -- It ill behooves the honourable member to be ma king such remarks after his politi cal party held the reins of office for so many, ma ny years here in Manitoba. MR . DESJARDINS: I thought we were dealing with the -- MR .

CHRISTIANSON: We're dealing with the present, and the present is the result of the past, and the mistakes of the past do now have to be corrected and we are proceedi ng with all haste to correct those mistakes and we have ma de a good start at MacGregor ; we have made a tremendous start at MacGregor . If you will look at the estimates for this departm ent you will find that the total expenditures for this year are $120, 835 as against $8 5, 850 for last year .

There are not include d in these estimates any monies that may be required for spec ial projects for a very, very good reason beca use I would not want to stand up here and give any hope to the people of Fairford or the people of St. Lazare , or any of the other backward communitie s, that this year we were going to do something for them beca us e, Mr . Chairman, I can't, in all con science make any promises in this regard.

But I ca n assure the honourable member that if any of these communities come to the point where we feel a housing project has a chance of suc cess , the money will be available and the project will be proceeded with . There is another housing project as well, $75, OOO in special warrants were authorized this year for loans to people at Grand Rapids to build houses. Now all that money hasn't been spent as yet . Most of it has but the re is still some 15 to 18 thousand left in that special war rant and we expect that it will be expended in the com ing year .

The only reason it hasn't been expended is because land was not available on which to build the houses . These were loans ; straight loans; mortgage loans to the people on a three-year term , and I'm very pleased to re port that one of these loans has already been repaid . Now if the people in Norway House ; if the people in Berens River; if the people in Poplar River or Bloodvein or wherever, come to us in the corning year with a project that the director feels has a good chance of succe ss, it will be carried out and the money will be ma de availa ble . And, Mr .

Chairman, if somebody says: "Why haven't you got more projects in here, " my only comment is that he doesn't und ersta nd the basic philos ophy behind the community development approach. He doesn't unders tand what we are trying to do here in Manitoba and if he doesn't attach any significance to the words that we are starting a long ways back, he had better just look very closely at his record beca use , whether he likes it or not, it's his record. MR. MOLGAT: Mr . Chairman, I am quite surprised at the political ta cks that the Min ister takes -- (Interjection) -- There is no political considera tion -- MR .

CHRISTIANSON : .....• accuses us of not having any projects for 1962,. MR. MOLGAT: Mr. Chairman, my comments were very straightforward. If the Minis ter wants to be political, that 's fine . I have no objections to being politic al. I am quite pre pared to get in that discussi on . The point was, Mr . Chairman, that in 1961 the Minister did something at MacGregor . I co mmended him for it and I agree that it's a good start .

What I want to know is what is he planning to do in '62 and he told me he had nothing planne d in 162, and I think it's a very fair question to ask: "Well why did you have something in '61 and if it's a good project, why is it not continuing in '6 2? " Because there are problems in other areas and the Minister doesn't need to sa y that we don't know what the Community Development April 24th, 1962 Page 2177

(Mr . Molgat, con t'd.) .... Project is all about . We are quite familiar with the Comm unity Development project. In fact the basis on which the government is operating is the report that was produced by this party when we were in office . The member who was sitting in the seat of honour here, a little while earlier today, who was then the Member for St . Boniface, Mr .

Teillet, is the one who originally proposed the resolution in this House requesting that a study be made by the Province of Manitob a on the people of Indian origins and particularly those who are not treaty Indians because those are the responsibility of the province . Following on, I will say, the unanimous ac ceptance of that resolution in this House, which included the mem bers of the Conservative party -- some of them are presently here in the House . This was passed; the government acted upon the resolution. The Comm ission was appointed, Mr.

La gasse who is now the Commu nity Development officer, was the one who did the survey, and I'll agree there completely with the comme nts of the Honourable Member for st. George, Mr . Lagasse produced an excellent report. I think most of the members of the House will have read with considerable interest -- certainly tho se of us, who have in our constitu encies people with these particular problems, were very concerned with the report; read it very care fully and have a great deal of interest in it and I fully agree when the Mini ster says that you have to have local participation for this to work.

It's the basic element of the commun ity de velopm ent program . I agree with him that you cannot come along and impose this from the top because if you do it doesn't work and that was probably the weakness in the past in a lot of the things that we attempted to do for the people of Indian origin in this country.

There was too much attempted from the top by governments and this includes any government that was in office previously -- too much done from the top without enough co-opera tion by the people in volved and the community development program , in my opinion , is an excellent one and I'm happy to see that the government is proceed ing with it, but I want to see it proceeding through out the provi nce . Now I know that you've got to walk before you can run, and you can't simply go out all over and start these projects all the way through but what I want to see, Mr .

Chair man, is a consist ent pattern and a prog ram . I don't want us to be going in fits and starts -- I don't want us to be proceeding and doing things along No . 1 Highway, where there's a lot of traffic , and not in other areas of the province where the problem is just as great but not quite as visi ble. MR . LYON : ..... doing nothing at all. MR . MOLGAT: If the Attorney-General wants to get into the fight he's quite welcome to. He's more than welcome into it, Mr . Chairman . And what I want to see then is a consistent pattern throughout the province . This is the purpose of my question, Mr .

Chairman, because in my own constituency there are areas where housing is badly needed by th ese people and they are anxious to see somet hing do ne . That 's why I want to know from the Minister what his plans and his programs are for 1962 ; why I'm disappointed that he has som ething for 161 and nothing for 16 2 and we don't know what for 163. Well I hope he will continue on a planned program . Now comi ng back to MacGregor .

Is it correct to assume then that in the case of MacGregor - and this then will be the pattern elsewhere -- that if the land is supplied and the individuals are prepared to put up 150 ma n hours of labour, that the department is prepared-to proceed with the construction ? Is this the accepted program ? MR . CHRISTIANSON: I answered that que stion a little while ago, Mr . Chai rman. Every case will be dealt with on its own merits and in many, many cases where these people are in difficulties they are living in unorganized territory -- the land will not be a problem .

Now with regard to the individual contributions , as I pointed out, in Grand Rapids we're not ma king any contributi on -- we're merely making mortgage loans because the people up there have jobs to work at and they're able to pay back loans and this is all the help they require and what 's more they're very happy to get it -- they don't want any gifts -- they want to be self-sufficient people -- they have just as much pride as we have -- so in that case we didn't give them a red cent.

All we gave them was a mo rtgage loan and as I sa id, and I'm very happy to report, there was a good fishing season up there this winter and one of the loans has already been paid back in full . Now I mentioned earlier in my remarks when I started off -- I said that the program was only two years old. One of the problems in this program is getting personnel. This is the key to the pro gram, the particular person who is sent into the area to try and stir up interest -- to Page 21 78 April 24th, 1962

(Mr . Christian son, cont' d.) .... try and stir up the activity of the local people . It's a pretty tough thing to get a man to go into a place like Beren1s River or Norway House where your only communication is by air in the winter and by boat in the summer -- to go up there with your family and go into the bush as it were for a long period of time, and it's a very slow process - it can't be done overnight.

We have , as I indicated earlier, three new positions for the com ing years -- one at Churchill, one at The Pas and one in.the forebay area behind the dam at Grand Rapids where the people of Cedarville. are being moved and what not --and we also hope to have an extra per son in Winnipeg and we hope to be able to continue the program in the southern parts of the province at the same time as we're continuing in the northern part of t..h.e province. Now we have a full partner in this, the Department of Indian Affairs .

They're giving us ex cellent co-opera tion and we are co-opera ting with them in the areas where we both see the greatest need and, if you like, the greatest potential. Now that's not to sa y that they aren't all in need beca use they are, and with respect I'd suggest that the number of projects that come up in the coming year -- that are brou ght forward in the coming year -- will be in direct pro portion to the number of community development officers that we have working in the province . Now last year we had four and some of them were appointed late in the year . Mr .

Birch went up to Beren's River in Dec ember; Mr. Dufore went up to Campe rville-Duck Bay I think in the summer; Mr. Whitford was in Grand Rapids about 18 months ago I guess; and Mr . Langon into Norway House just slightly over a year ago . So the projects that will be coming forward Pm sure will be in direct proportion to the number of people that we have actively engaged in the work in the field. I am quite confident -- quite confident -- that there'll be several projects come forward in the coming year .

I might report too that the Department of Indian Affairs is going to co -operate with us -- I believe as part of the Committee on Manitoba's Economic Fu ture -- as part of their study on additional ways to improve the livelihood of these native people , particularly living in the Pre-Ca mbrian Shield -- in the area east and north of Greater Winnipeg . So we have no apologies to make for the fact that there is nothing in the estima tes this year and no projects specifically stated as such -- no apologies whatsoever.

We stand re ady -- the honourable member seems to have gotten the principle behind community development -- it has to be a community effort -- it has to be one at the local level. There isn't one at this moment ready to be set into operation . There may be one next week, there may be one the week after next, but there isn't one at this moment and until it's read y to go we don't feel we 'd be doing anybody a se rvice to announce it beca use we would only be leading people astray . MR . GUTTORMSON: Mr .

Chairman, the Minister sa id that in order for such a project to function properly they had to get the co -operation from the people in the area itself. Could he indicate what perc entage the governm ent or the com mittee feels is required in order to go ahead with the project . Take MacGregor, for instanc e, did they have 100% interest or was it 80% or what perc entage does the Minister feel is required in an area to make the project a suc cess; and before he answers this question, is the government assi sting in the comm unity centre that's operating in Winnipeg at the presen t time?

I believe there's one on Selkirk Aven ue . Could he indicate what as sistance is being offered to these people in this regard? MR . CHRISTIANSON : Yes , Mr . Chairman, I'd be very pleased to . We're very proud of the effort made by the peo ple whc organized and are operating this Indian-Metis Friendship Centre . It's a model of its kind in Canada . Believe me, it's an outstanding example of what can be done for these people, particularly in a large urban are a. I should pay particular trib ute to Canon Sc ott and to Miss Adam s who is the full-time worker there . We are making a sub stantial contribution.

I had occ asion to be over there at their third anniversary the other day and presen ted them with a cheque for $4, OOO which is our yearly contribution to their proje ct . We have, in addition, authorized some extra funds in co-opera tion -- or at least we hope it will be in co-opera tion -- with the Department of Indian Affairs, toward the attachm ent of a probation officer to the staff of this Indian-Metis Friendship Centre to deal with the cases that come up in the local courts and to try and reach out from the Centre -- to try and enlarge the sphere of influence, if you like, of the Centre .

Now when I was talking about per centage of concurrence by the people in the com munity, I'm only speaking of the Indian people in the comm unity. I'm not speaking about the white people in the community and there again it.would of necessity be on an individual case . If, in April 24th, 1962 Page 2179

(Mr .

Christianson, cont' d.) •••• a commu nity you find a strong leader, one who is capable of carrying the people along, and one whose motives are -- I shouldn't say proper -- but one who has good motives, who has the right kind of motives, then you don't need to wait until you have everybody 's concurrence in the project before y·ou can proceed but if you have an area or a comm unity where you have one or two strong men -'-and there are always strong men in every one of the se commu nities -- who are not in favour of the project, then you've pretty near got to have 100% agreem ent before you can go ahead because as soon -- (Interject ion) -- In MacGreg or ?

MacGregor was a case where we had nearly 100% agreem ent . Now there wasn't com plete agreem ent because the Roulette family was a bit of an obstacle, and particularly the sen ior Roulette, and he has been a problem -- or at least he was a problem right along .

However, we feel that now that problem has been solved but there again you see you had men -- the Beau champs , who lived on the north side of the highway, who were earn ing a reas onable livelihood, notwithstanding the fact that they were living in very poor surro undings, they were earning a reas onable livelihood and their children were going to school so that we had a core, a nucleus if you like, of people we could depend upon to carry the project forward.

Then also we had ex cellent support from the Town and Village of MacGregor because they really wanted to do some thing for these people too, notwithstanding the TV show which may have given the impressi on that the people of MacGregor were completely neglecting these people . The Village of Mac Gregor has always been very kind to these people but because it wasn't felt that the people themse lves were making an effort, the kindnesses that they were bestowing on them were never yielding too much fruit.

So, to go back again, every case will be judged on its merits -- it has to be judged on its mer its and as soon as a project has a chance of success we'll be ready to procee d. MR . DESJARDINS: Mr . Chairman, I can't understand why the Minister is so touchy on this question and why he feels that it's wrong for my Leader to ask questions .

I can't under stand why he has to tell us that they have to be careful but then criticize all the former govern ments and I must say all -- I can't see where he can skip over the Conser vative Governm ents of the past -- I can't see how that could be done , especia lly when so much of the work has been started by a government that I certainly don't take any credit for, but a Liberal government, and I think the man whom I replaced, Mr. Teillet is one of the men who did the most of every body -- anybody in this province in this question of Indian and Metis .

I can't see why it's so wrong at the estimate time to ask questions, espec ially when nine , ten weeks ago we heard the Speech from the Throne and I'll read a paragraph here -- I quote -- "My Ministers are pleased to state that the experim ental program of commu nity development designed prim arily for In dian and Metis citizens, is beginning to bear good fruit. You will be asked to provide addition al funds to expand and strengthen the program ." Why is it so wrong to try and find out about this at this time, Sir? MR. CHRISTIAN SON: Mr . Chairman, there's nothing wrong with asking questions .

No thing at all -- (Interje ction) -- and I guess that I am one of those people who doesn't like having allegations ma de . Now I guess it all depends on where you sit as to how an allegation goes over. It's pe rfectly all right for the honourable members across there to make allegations, but if I ma ke allegations this is neither fit nor prop er . Mr.

Chairman, if I am guilty of reading some thing into the dem ands of the Leader of the Opposition -- if I am guilty of believing that he was accusing us of not proceeding with this program -- I must apologize -- I must apologize be cause I must say that this is what I thought and this is what I inferred from his rem arks , but if he didn't infer that we were not going ahead fast enough, that we had no programs to announce and our whole commun ity development program was bogging down, well then again I apologize for speaking a little louder than is my custom . MR . ORLlKOW: Mr .

Chairman, I think it's fair to say that until some six or eight years ago that the governments of all the jurisdictions in Canada -- federal and all the provinces - were, in as far as the problem of the Indian and Metis are concerned, were really only offer ing welfare -- were re ally only offering sufficient relief so that people would not, very often at least, die of starvation or die of cold because of inadequate housing .

The last half dozen years I suppo se, ma ybe a little longer, has come, and I think it's long overdue ; a realization that merely to provide assis tance to keep people alive is not enough . We've known that about other group s in the com munity. for many, ma ny years, but in the last few years we've begun to Page 2180 April 24th, 1962

(Mr . Orlikow, cont' d.) .••• realize that this applies to the Indian people too, and that they need to be helped in such a way, as the Minister said, that they will basic ally help themse lves .

Now I think that the community development program which was -- and let's give credit where credit was due -- which was first proposed in a report comm issioned by the former govern ment and then because of the accident ....•. or what you want to call it, of the election, was then instituted by this governmen t -- (Interje ction) -- Well, it was an accident in term s of when it started for these people, that's all I'm talking about.

That is somet hing for which, I think, we can all be happy, because what we have learned from the beginning, and I think the Minister said, and said correctly, we've only ma de a beginning on this program , is that the best way to solve this problem , the only way to solve this problem , is to help these people learn to help them selves .

I'm one of the members, and I'm sure there are ma ny of this House who have had occas ion to go to visit the Indian and Metis Friendship Centre, and it certainly is a wonderful feeling to see 75 to 100 young people there on a Sunday evening and to realize that if this facility had not been provided for them that many of them in all likelihood would have been in some much less desirable place, some rest aurant in one of the poorer areas of Winnipeg and would probably have wound up in some considerable difficulty.

So we are making strides and, if as I see in the estimates we are providing in this coming year sufficient money to hire four new community development officers, I'm quite certain that, as the Minister says , we will find places for them . I'm not so concerned about the fact that the Minister doesn •t know tonight in what particular area they will be put. I recognize the problem of getting ade quate staff. There are not too many people trained in this field and certainly less people who have the proper philosophy. At the same time, Mr .

Chairm an, I would not entirely agree with the Minister that every thing is being done which can be done . That doesn't me an that I have any specific recommen dations that instead of four it should be six or it shouid be eight . I do think however, Mr . Chairm an, that if the four have proved their value, that the eight will certa inly prove their value and that probably we need a good deal more than eight . And if I have any criticism , Mr . Chairm an, of this particular program from what we know about it up till now, it is that ! feel that the departm ent should be -- after all Mr .

Lagasse made, in his study and in his re port on the bulk of the Indian communities in the province, and it seems to me that the one thing which we need now is for the departm ent_ to ma ke an assessme nt of what the total problem is and to set itself an objective . I have no objections to four more per year. It may be that that is the rate at which we can grow and which we should grow .

But if I have any criticism, and it's certainly not a great criticism this year, is that I feel that there should be an assess ment of the total problem and that the department should make some five-year or ten-year or whatever length of time the departm ent feels will be required to get a program for the whole province starte d. And that I think should be put before the Legislature and should be approved.

I know that one legislature can't bind future legislatures, but it does seem to me if we had that kind of approach to it that we would be dealing with the problem -- and it is a problem , the greatest problem in the field of welfare which faces not only the Province of Manitoba but, I think, all three Prairie Provinces at least, -- but we could deal with it in a much more consist ent and a much more thoughtful! manner than in what seems to me to be a somewhat "catch as catch can" bas is . This year we propose four, and I'm all for it; next year it may be two or three or six.

It seems to me that this is the one thing I think we could do which is to work out some over-all objective with some time table . • •.••.••••.•••••••.•. Continued on next page . April 24th, 1962 Page 2181

MR . CHAIRMAN: (

a) passed. MR . MOLGAT : Mr. Chairman , there are still some questions on 1 (a) , Mr. Chairman. MR . HILLHOUSE: Mr. Chairman , the matter which I wish to raise in this committee is a matter which is outside a provincial jurisdiction but it deals with citizens of Manitoba and, for that reason,· I feel that I am justified in bringing it up here. At the recent conference of Indians and Metis held in Winnipeg on February 7th, I believe that Chief Albert Campbell of the Peguis Indian Reserve made a charge of fraud against the federal government arising out of the surrender of St.

Peter's Indian Rese rve, which Reserve was originally situated just north of the Town of Selkirk. And I think for the purpose of making my remarks as brief as possible , I may be excused from reading this

article which appeared in the Winnipeg Free Press on Feb ruary 8th, under the byline of John Gordon. The

article reads : "A Manitoba Indian Band will ask the federal government for a cash settlement in a 54-year old land fight. If the Band doesn't gain satisfaction , the Chief says , he will try to take the matter to the United Nations . The plan for action was revealed to the Eighth Annual Indian and Metis Conference in Winnipeg, Wednes day, by Chief Albert Campbell of the Peguis Reserve ." And I understand he's no relative of the Honourable Member for Lakeside . -MR . CAMPBELL: I wouldn 't be too sure . MR .

HILLHOUSE : "Chief Ca mpbell maintain s that in 1907 , his band was defraude d out of its original reserve, St. Peter's, on the northern boundary of the Town of Selkirk by agents of the federal government. He says this was done so government supporters could buy the land for specula tion. The matter was brought up in the Commons in 19 10. In 1915 a Provincial Royal Commission found the Indian had been defrauded , said Mr. Campbell . Since then the Band has attempted to have two petitions of rights filed, the last in 1936. The matter has never been settled.

Chief Ca mpbell , however, is determined it is about time the white man did the right thing to us . The Chief says that in 1936 the Band filed to have $1 ,0 00 of the Ban d's funds allocate d to pay a lawyer to file a petition of rights. The federal government refused to approve the expenditure, he said. In 1907 the Band Council was bri bed with liqu or, land and money to turn the land over to the government, Mr . Campbell said. Most of the Indians voting for the surrender didn't know what they were voting for. G. H. Bradbury , M.P. for Selkirk brought the matter up in the Commons in 1910.

Acc ording to Hansa rd, Mr . Bradbury charged the sur render of the land was arranged at the request of the then sitting government member just prior to a general election to provide money to reward party stalwart s. Mr . Bradbury charged the Indians were not sufficiently informed of the government's intention to ask them to surrender their lands and to move them to another reserve. Most of the discuss ion went on in English which the Indians didn't understand and took place in a very small room where only a few Indians at at ime could gather. Tl:ie rest had to stay outside . Mr .

Bradbury said the Chief and Coun sellors were bribed with promises of land and money to induce .them to sup port the measu re. When the time for the surrender came , Mr . Bradbury said , the Indians were told to go to one side of the hall or the other to signify their intentions. He sa ys , that a government representa tive announced the vote by telling the Indians , those who want $90 go to the side favoring the surrender . The then Deputy Minister is reported to have said just before the vote , "l have $5, OOO in my satchel.

If you vote for the surrender tonight, I will distribute this $5 , OOO among you; if you do not vote for the surrender, I will take my bag and go home and you won't get a cent. " Individual Indians were granted a few acres of land which was then grabbed up by specu lato rs, according to Mr. Bradbury. In 1915 , a provincial royal commission judged that fraud and bribery were proved in the transfer and recommended that action be taken according to Chief Ca mpbell.

Chief Campbell is working with lawy ers to get the support of federal members of Parliament , he said , and indications are encouraging ." Now I don't know whether everything that's in that

article is true or I don't know whether part of it is true and part of it is false -- but the point is this , if we ever want to have that mutual understanding between the white man and the Indian in this province , and between the while man and the Metis , it must be based on trust and it must be based on faith.

And as long as a situation like this prevails , as long as the Indians feel that they have been defrauded by the white man, I think it is incumbent upon us as th eir representatives in this House , and they have a perfect right in Manitoba to sit in this House ; they have the franchise; they are in all respects first-class citizens , although federally they're still treated as second-class citizens . And , Page 2182 April 24th, 1962

(Mr. Hillhouse, cont'd.) . • . • I think, in view of the f act that they have equal rights in this province with us it's ��cumbent upon us as their representatives in this House to investigate this matter and find out whether or no there is any truth in the statements that have been made by Chief Campbell. I know, for a fact, that the Howe Royal Commissio n did make a finding. Now whether they found that there was bribery or fraud , I don't know. But I know that they did impose a lien, or register a lien under the St. Peter's Indian Reserve Act agairist all the lands in the St.

Peter's Indian Reserve which had been transferred or sold by Indians prior to the receipt by them of a patent; and I know that lien is still in existence although no efforts whatso ever are being taken or have been taken by the federal government to collect that lien . That lien is bearing interest, I believe, at five percent compound interest from June 1, 1950 , and it now amounts to about $3 . 20 an acre . I feel that since we have in Mr .

Lega sse, an excellent individual who is genuinely inter ested in the welfare of the Indians and Metis in this province that we should do something as a province to find out from the federal government whether or no they are prepared to reopen this whole case with a view to seeing what can be done to better the lot of the Indians who were moved from the old Peguis Reserve out to Hodgson. I understand that that money that is being paid under the St. Peter's Indian Rese rve lien is being held in Band funds at Ottawa.

Now I don't know under what terms or under what conditions it is released to the band, but my under standing is that when an Indian of that band becomes enfranchised he gets a certain share of the funds . Now if that money could be released to that Indi an Band now , I think that it could be used for the purposes of rehabilitation and for other purposes; it could be used to their advantage .

And I would certainly ask the Honourable Minister of Welfare to take this matter under advi se ment and to see .whether something could not be done to get to the bottom of this whole sorrow ful affair , because this is nothing new; it's been going on for years . When I first went to Sel kirk in 1923 I first heard about it. I've interviewed numerous Indians who claimed that they sold land to the white man for $10 and a bottle of whiskey, and I believe that in some insta nces they were telling the truth.

I fee quite sincerely that this is a matter which would be worthy of the attention of our Department of Welfare. Let's get to the bottom of it and find out whether or no the charges made by Chief Albert Campbell are true; whether they're partly true or whether they're false . And if they're true or partly true, let's see what we can do to assist these people in righting what they claim to be a wrong. MR. CHRISTIANSON: . . the honourable member any information on that, but I certainly will endeavour to fi.Iid out something about it. I want to correct an impression left by the Honourable Member from St. John' s.

The men in question are going into Forebay area, into.C hurchill and into The Pas and one in Winnipeg. The program is well in hand and the future planning is also well in hand as I indicated earlier. We have planned in the coming years to expand into the western parts of the province , based, I hope, on Brandon to cover all the western parts , and perhaps from Winnipeg or some other point to cover the west shore of Lake Manitob a; the Interlake area as well as the southeast and the east side of the province .

We are indebted to whoever started the ball rolling on this matter of Indian and Metis affairs ; and if it was the previous member from St. Boniface or if it was the Member from Inkster, I certainly want to give them full marks, full marks, because the effort, the resolution, or wha tever was the force that prompted the appointment of Mr. Lagasse to conduct the inquiry, was certainly an effort or a force that was long, long overdue. I can assure the honourable members that Mr .

Laga sse has lost none of his zeal and he has , in fact, gained a tremendous amount of intelligence and experience from his exp eriences in the last two or three years . I wanted to inform the Honourable Member from St. John's as well that the limiting factor , as I said earlier, the limiting factor in the program to date has been the ability to engage competent staff for these remote areas . MR. MOLGAT : Mr.

Chairman , now that we've gone a full circle round and we're all together again on the community development program, and all agreed that we want it, I'd like to ask some further questions of the Mini ster on it. And now I'm speaking as the member for Ste.

Rose constituency and not as Leader of the Opposition specifically , because when I was asking him questions about this program I had in mind some specific areas in my own constitu ency where housing is badly needed; and what I wante d to be sure of is that we could in those areas organize a group who would undertake to have local co-operation and local effort, and if April 24th, 1962 Page 2183

(l\Ir. Molgat, cont' d.) . . . . • they were prepared to do that, that they would meet with the approval of the department and of the Minister in the ir de sires for improved hous ing. There 's one area in particular which has been a problem area for many years , right near the big Indian Rese rve at Sandy Bay or Amaranth -- the locality known as Marius . Now here I'm sure that we can obtain the land. They are presen tly squatting on land owned by private individuals and I'm sure that this can be obtained.

Provided this can be done , provided that they are willing to do the amount of man-hours of work that were done at MacGregor, is the department then prepared to consider this year , their request for assistance in housing? That's the main thing that I want to cover in this particular regard; and then of cou rse , throughout the province as the same situation develops , is the government prepared to take into considera tion and pro vide the funds in the coming year ? Ma. GRAY: Mr . Chairman , I think perha ps , I know the situation of the Metis as good as anyone else in the House .

I have brought this question up years ago.· I had once a reso lution on it and it was amended to appoint a committee. I don't think that there is any good purpose to debate who is to blame and who is not to blame . What I said many years ago, there was an other government at that time, another administration, and the same applies to this adminis tration. Some of the Metis hang around the corners of Logan and Main. I talk to them every day. I try to find out their livelih ood; I try to find out what interest have they got in life ; why do they stand on the corner all the time .

The information I have is that they live in 1 or 2 rooms -- sometimes a family of six or seven. They don't know what to do; they cannot get a job, and we all know it. The average employer would not employ them in any kind of work and how they live , I don't know. Most of them are on relief; others on soc ial welfare . But instead of arguing who is to blame , for God's sake , let's quit it. Let's find out what we can do for them. They are human beings and the longer we postpone some kind of a remedy for them, the worse it gets and the more expensive it becomes to the taxpayer .· They are hopeless and help less .

There 's no future for them . They simply exist and it is our duty to see what could be done . We cannot send them anywhere , they are here ; and as someone expressed, they are Canadian citize ns longer than any one of us . It's a problem and the problem should be solve d. It's getting worse from day to day. Little kids running around down there on Main Street with our their paren ts' guidance begging for a penny; begging for something else ; and if you look in to their faces you see the tragedy of a child.

The child itself realizes - - 4 or 5 years old children realize they are handicapped and there is little hope for improvement. They go around in shabby clothe s and no one to take care of them. Go down there on that corner sometime during the day -- any one of you -- and have a talk to them . They're intelligent; they realize their position . They realize the tragedy but what can they do ? And instead of accusing one Minister or another there's no program -- we'v e discussed it for years -- Let's have a pro gram. Instead of criticizing, let's suggest something. Let' s help them.

But for the last few years anytime this question comes up, one blames the other. In the meantime these poor people are suffering. Some improvements have been made , I realize it; some concern has been given by this House , I realize it. But for God's sake , let's help th em, and help them directly. It is not a question of a year or a month or 10 years or 5 years, it may be requested for years and years and generations, and they're all on our hands . It's our responsibility. They are not here to talk for themselves and as a matter of fact they have an inferior ity complex.

But if you start talking to them and hone stly, it's a disgrace for civiliz ation that human beings suffer. I would suggest that let's do something instead of squabbling; let's do something instead of criticizing the others . This will not help . Action -- that will help . And after we consider they are not a second-class citizen in this country; they are just as good as we are -- just as good. Unfortu nately, for the last -- probably centuries -- we have not tried to do anything for them . The same applies to the Indians , but I'm not so familiar with their tragic life .

But I am familiar fully the tragic life of the Metis , and the one thing I can ask this House is quit blaming one another . Let's get together. This is not a political issu e . I don't know what political party they belong to but it's immaterial . They are human beings ; they are suffering; it's a tragedy. Let's help them. MR. CHRISTIANSON: . ·. . . assure the Honourable Member for Inkster that we are proceedi ng as quickly �s we can, and we are ce rtaiJily fully cognizant of the human dignity of Page 2184 .April 24th, 1962

(Mr. Christianson, cont'd) .. ..... . these people and we are treating them in that way as we could treat any other human being -- any other human person. Concrete evidence of wh::tt he says, of cour,se, is the fac t that out of the some 100, OOO -odd people of Indian ancestry in Manitoba, 50, OOO of them are self-supporting citiz ens . With regard to the question from the Honourable Member from Ste. Rose , I've already indicated that we are prepared to accept or to proceed with any project that, in the opinion of the director and the members of the slaff, has a good chance of succ,ess .

It would be wrong of me to say that if they meet certain ma terial qualification, that we will automatically proceed with the program , because I don't want to placfl any false hopes in anybody's way or I don't want anybody to read any promises into anything I may say, because this is a very complex problem and the decision to go ahead on any given project will depend on the particular set of circums tances surrounding the indiv idual case. But I can assure him that every case that has the chance of success will receive the most sincere and the most sympathetic consideration. MR. FROESE: Mr.

Chairman, I don't think my question that I asked the Minister before was answered regarding the social allowances in the case where the need is identical be tween rural and urban ca ses .

If there is a difference, and I think the answer circulated among the me mbers here that there was a difference, I feel that -- and I doubt whether there should be a difference, because it seems to me there is a tendency that once they become a welfare case that people will tend to move to the cities to enjoy the facilities and conveniences of cities rather than to rema in in rural centres; and as a result, it just costs the governm ent more in social allowances . I'd like to know from the Minister what the differences amount to. Is it 10%; could it be 20% as an average , or what difference is there ? MR.

CHRISTIANSON: If the honourable me mber would care to call at my office tomorrow morning , I would be pleased to give him a copy of

Chapter 57 of the Statutes of Manitoba, The Social All owances Act, and a copy of the regulations appertaining thereto. I might even, if the time permits, endeavour to give him the same short course as I have had in the mechanics of applying the regulations and the Social Allowances Act, but I really don't think we should bur den the com mittee with the detailed explanation at this time. MR. MOLGAT: Mr.

Chairman, earlier -- well I shouldn't say this year, actually it was last fall -- the report was carried in the Free Press on the 7th of September, a headline: "Study ordered into The Pas social problems to inves tigate pros titution and bootlegging. The provincial government will initiate a study of soc ial problems in The Pas , Premi er Duff Roblin announced Wednesday. " And it goes on that he issued a -- it says here, "a very carefully worded statement saying we have set on fo'ot a study of special problems which may be assoc iated with The Pas in connec tion with a situation as a commu nication centre .

The study will touch on soci al problems arising from this fact." He also shortly before that, I think, had had a Cabinet meeting in The Pas and has some speci fic requests from the town council with regard> to law enf orcement in the area and assi stance for additional constables beca nse of their special location and special problems. I wonder if the Minis ter could tell us whether the report is completed; if not, at what stage it is and what he can tell us about the situation. Has the govern ment agreed to assist the Town insofar as their special problems in this regard? MR. CHRISTIANSON: .. ... ..• Mr.

Chairman, by the Deputy Minister of Welfare , Municipal Affairs and the Deputy Attorney-General , and Mr. Legasse went along as secre tary. They heard briefs from all the local groups in the area. The report is very nearly completed. I don't know whether it's being printed or just exactly -- it's in the final stages of preparat ion at any rate.

Since that time we have had other mee tings with the people from The Pas interested in se tting up the Friendship Centre; and as I've already indic ated we hope to be able to appoint a com munity development officer in The Pas in the very near future to help with the lndian Me tis problem that they have in that area. I'm sorry that the report isn't available yet and I can't indic ate how soon it will be, but it won't be very long in coming; it will be comi ng fonvard fairly quickly.

I think the members are aware, too, that in the estimates of the Department of the Attorney-General there was mention made of a gaol for women at The Pas. I think this was probably a decision that was made prior to the visit at The Pas of the Deputy Ministers. How ever, that has been ma de since that time anyway. MR. MOLGA T: Will the report be made public when it's co mpleted, Mr. Chairman ? MR. CHRISTIANSON: Indeed it will, Mr. Chairman. April 24th, 1962 Page 2185

MR. MOLGAT: Has the government decided yet whether or not to assist the Town of The Pas with its request for special or additional constables because of the problems in the area? MR. CHRISTIANSON: That decision has not been made yet, although I think it's fair to point out that the Town of The Pas does not differ too substantially from other commu nities of similar size because there are several other commu nities who have similar problems in the Province of Manitoba.

I realize that The Pas condition is aggravated because there is a larger concentration of people in the area and because of the tremendous number of transients that go through The Pas on the way to and from jobs in the north . However, I can't indicate whether any decision has been made because I really don •t know; and , as I indicated, the report is not yet completed. MR. MOLGAT: Mr� Chairman, I want to ask some questions as well of the Minister on the matter of adoptions . Is this the proper item under which to ask those questions ? MR.

CHRISTIANSON: It would come under Ward Maintenance or Grants to Charitable Institutions .... ; ... MR. MOLGAT: Under 2 (

b) or (f) .•. MR. CHRISTIANSON: (

b) or (f) . Yes. MR. MOLGAT: Mr. Chairman, before we leave the matter of Indians and Metis, there is some pressure being put or, if not pressure, at least requests being made by the federal government now on the matter of the reservation and their schooling , and in a number of areas in the province the federal government are approaching local school boards -- obviously not in the reserves, but local school boards in areas adjoining the reserves -- with a view of inte grating their students from the reservation with the students from the properly cons tituted local school board in the area.

Does this come through the department of my honourable friend and are they in consultation with the Commu nity Development group in this regard? I think there's a very important aspect here to be considered. If we accept, and I for one certainly do accept the principle that integration is the direction in which we must move, then I think it is essential that assistance be given towards this integration in the schooling system.

I know that at the moment in the case.of at least one reserve, the Ebb and Flow Reserve for example, on the shores of Lake Manitoba, the federal department now are prepared to consider taking students from there and putting them in the schools of the adjoining areas. Now this will mean special problems obviously for the schools there -- space, teachers and so on. Has consultation taken place ? Is the departm ent aware of this ? If the local school boards want advice and sug gestions , can they come to the departm ent for assistance in this? MR. CHRISTIANSON: Mr.

Chairman, we' re always ready to give whatever help we can to the local people with regard to the special problems that they have . This matter doesn't come under our jurisdiction. The Commu nity Deveiopment Department is kind of an odd bird in a way, it doesn't have any legal entity -- if I may use that word -- it doe sn't have any legis lative responsibility. It's only an advisory body; it has no legislative duties· responsibility. The com munities must work through the Department of Education and through their local school boards . However, we always stand ready to give whatever help we can.

And I must say that -- I not only must say, I want to say that we encourage, we encourage wherever- possible the inte gration of the Reserve children because the Metis children are already going to the local schools -- the reserve children into the school system of the province. I notice the member shaking his head. This may be in some cases where the Department of Indian Affairs operates a school and the Metis children from outside the reserve attend the school that the Department of Indian Affairs operates.

In other cases, the reverse is true, the Department of Education in the Pro vince of Manitoba operates the school and all the children in the area go to it.

In any event we are doing our best to stimulate and to encourage this integration process and, in particular, where we have areas in the more remote parts of the province where the language problems are apt to crop up we have been trying to talk to the Department of Indian Affairs into establishing kindergartens so that the Indian children when they come to school will have an equal chance with the white children solely by virtue of the comma nd of the language, if for no other reason.

The language handicap can be quite a problem in the early years and it's the belief of the people in my department that if the Indian children can be given some instruc tion in language prior to going to school that their progress will be equally rapid as that of the other children. Page 2186 April 24th, 1962

MR. CHAIRMAN: (b} passed; (c} passed; Resol ution -- MR. ORLlKOW: Mr. Chairman, I wonder if we could get from the Minister a statement as to how many -- I know here we're only dealing with the salaries, I suppose the money pro vided is in capital -- but can we get from the Minister a statement as to how many units have been provided and how many are in plans? I know there's the big project which the Minister mentioned in Sherbrook and Portage, put what other projects are more or less definitely plan ned and what are the long-range plans of the department?

How much money, for example, is it expected that there will be available for this type of project ? Because I think, without start ing a major debate and without seeming to be critical, I think the Minister would have to agree that we, so far -- although we have made some progress in the last few years -- we are so far really only nibbling on the edges of the problem. I certainly don't claim to be an expert on this question and, of course, I know less about the problem as it affects the rural areas. The Minister said that some areas are concerned whether they have over-built.

That may be so, and I express no opinion, but certainly in the urban areas although we have a number of projects in operation the vast majority of elderly people who are living by themselves are living in very meager and completely unsatisfactory rooms in the centre part of the city. We have a long way to go, but I wonder if the Minister could tell us in some detail what the plans are, not just for 1962 but, say, for the next three or four years. MR.

CHRISTIANSON: Well dealing with the immediate future, there are presently a total of 346 beds under construction and the grant requirement in these particular beds is 452 , OOO. There are a total of 46 projects in the planning stage at various levels and the grant potential in these projects is one million nine, approximately. There are a total of 20 projects that are either under construction or approved, and the total grant on those is one million one. Quite a bit of this has already been provided in past votes; and the balance will I

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	26-5-78
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	26th 5th hansardpdf 78.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	a40de27d71f3297ba4f0d4ca008c1f80bf557744

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