VOL. l PRELIMDIARY UNEDITED Tl!ANSCRIP'l' HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY E'OR THE PERIOD: 3:00 p.m. - 6:00 p.m. THURsDAY, UGUS'l' 2, 1979 NO. 14

Auqust 2, 1979 The House met at 3:00 P.M. ~r. Speaker ir. the Chair. MR. SP~..AltEP. (Simms) : MR. WINDSOR: MR. SPEAKER: MR. N. WINDSOR: Tapa No. 470 Order, please! Mr. Speaker. NM - 1 The hon. Minister of Municipal Affairs. On a point of privileqe, Mr. Sp~aker. As you may reca.ll 1 I gave notice on the last day, at t.'l.e end of tile day that I would ask leave of Your Honour to brinq up this point of privileqe at this point in time. It arises from an incident of two sitting days ago, some statements that were made in the House of Assembly.

The one I refer ta particularly is a statement by the hon. member for the Stra.i.ts of Belle Isle (Mr. Roberts) and I ~~te,~if~~ may, from- Hansard of July 30th., "And if the Minister of Municipal Affairs (Mr. Windsor) was covering up this seamy little affair, as apparently he was," Now admttedly the hon. gentleman sa.i.d, "as apparently he "'as," I give him that benefit, but tile point I ~sh to make, Mr. Speaker, is that tile impression was clearly left that there was some sort of sordid affair that "'as raisl'd by the. non. member for Lal'oile (Mr.

Neary) which involved a municipality in which I or someone in my department was effectively covering up. The point I want to clarify, Mr. Speaker, is very clearly this,tbat there indeed i~ no seamy little affair other t.'l.an in the mind of the hon. member for t.al'oile 1 I suppose 1 who suggested that there was something amiss in the community of Portugal Cove in relation ta a cOIIIIIIWlity well that was drilled and in relation ta a petition which he cla.i.med ~ forged signatures. There was no petition, Mr. Spealair~ In f~ct,there vas no requj.rement for a petition.

Under the old proqra~~:~u '"' it existed at tile time there is simply an apglication which has ta have a list of names. The hon. gentleman for Lal'oile (Mr . Neary) in his COIIIIIIellts a few days aqo said that these names were all siqned by the same person, by the secretary;, and so they perhaps were; in fact, 1200

Auguat 2, 1979 Tape No. 470 NM- 2 MR. N. WINDSOR: they may indeed na. ve been typed, it wou.ld. not make any d;i,.fference. It is not a petition. It is simp~y an application sayinq that we wish ta nave a well to serve these people. A well was dZ:i.J.led. The hon. gentleman a.lso u.id that it was drilled. in a location · that was not· suitable to the !lliljority of the people, that it was dr.iJ.led only to sene one person who happened to be the c:hai%man of that COiiai.ttee. I 'WOuld like to point out, Mr.

Speilkar, that that well was drilled in a. locatic~~o a.s detezmined by the Department of Health so that it was at a location where suzplus drainaqe and pollution could not enter the well and therefore pollllte the drinking- water. I have, as the hen. gentlem;m for t.aPoile (Mr. Neary)-pointed out . I have the oriqiDal; the one • ··- -· . •. - . I ~t he attempted to tabla in· the Bouse was a copy and Your Honour t'uled him out of order aDd quite cczrectl.Y;.

Auqust 2, 1979 Tape 471 PK - 1 Mr. N. Windsor: I have the original of that with the signatures on it. I have had officials of rny department check and several of these people !:!!i!lly we:!:!! not c1!!1'l!: "" ...t-~t they -'!'e . siqninq. They siqneci a Ji18tition which to th8111 they thouqht that it '4s a pe4tion that they wanted to be hooked up to the well. It wu never the intent of the Cepartment of Municip!U Affilirs, in that particular case,to conuect people to the well.

It was a well that was i ntended to be brouqht to the surface where residents of the area could qet WlU:er, come to a pump house and receive water. . 'l'he chainrlan is connec:ted, as the hon. c;entleman said, but he connected at h.is own expense, not as an expense of this project. And other residents of the nearby area. if they wish to invest in that ·they can connect as we.l.l. so I just want to clarify that point that there is no cover up. and that I would as.lc that the alleqations made by the hon. mamber to be withdrawn. MR. SPDKER (SIMMS): 'l'he hon. member for the Strait of Belle Isle. MR.

ROBERTS: Mr. ~alcer, I - not suze the Minister of Municipal Affairs (Mr. Windsor) has raised a valid point of privilaqe, and evan if he had I would arque that he is badly out of time. But I do not want to discuss the matter on a procedural point, alld inaSDNCh as he brouqht 1D'/ name into it Ji18rhaps I may be penU.tted to respond.

If what he was doinq was lllalcinq wha.t amounts to a ministerial stati!IIIIID.t on a series of evants that occurred in Portuqal cave, tllen I have no objection or quarrel; in fact, I can only wish that he had · made that statement, what amounts to a ministerial stat-.ut,two days aqo, on Tllesday, because the i.nc.identa to which he refernd occurred . hare in the Elowse·, as I recall thE!IIl, on Mcmday. AN BON. MEMBER: Right . MR.. ROBERrS: But havinq said that, let me qo on to make it quite clear that I do not have the words I used before me, but ! 1202

l\Ugust 2, 1979 Tape 471 Pit - 2 Mr. Rabarts: th:ink the word.s were merited, and I th:ink that the words stiulli and speak far· themsel vas. I want to add to: that two thinqa; .f:tzst of aJ.l, if the hOD. ~entleman dret £ram zay word.s any impression, aDii he used the word "impression", I can only ~t that and I can only cite to h.iJII the motto of The order of the ~er, "RoDJ. soit qui mal y pense;;" which means evil. be to him who evil. thinlca .. And.

I would. like to go on aad make it quite clear to the hml. gentll!llliiD.~with whpm: I have no quarrel on this point, that r intended no iaplicati.on of dishonesty or ca:auptian on his part, I have no heSitation in sayinq so. I made no sta~ts that in lilY view qave that imPression, wt if he thinks that tbey did., then let 1118 say that I hasten to lllllke it clear to him that I had. no lNCh intention. I th:ink his ministarial. conduct was not what it ouqht to have b-n,in lilY view.

I think the sta:teaent which he liiAd.e as a lllinister, now, in my view, mak-es. it quite straightforward arid quite clear what happened. I think the people in Portuqal cove and. the people elsewhere who hear it can jud.qa for thell!Selves

Auqu.st 2,1979 Tape No.472 AH-1 M:R. liOl!ERl'S: The fact remains, apparenUy, that a number of names were affixed to a doCillllent without the permission or the know1edqe of the bearers of IAPoile (Mr.Neazy) was asked by a number of people to raise in this Hause the matter qrowinq out of that. That was what the incident was aboUt. The lllinister has now made an explanation and I for one aa quite prepared to accept. Let me say aqain, Sir, that I ao not think there ·is a question of privileqe. Even if it is 1 I submit it is completely out· of time and even if it were not out of time I thinlr: it has no merit.

But let me say there is no 1110tion1 as rrry friend from Trinity-Bay de Verde (Mr.l".Rowe) says; it is simply an effort by the minister to set the record clear. Well,that is fine, tha~ I welc01111!1and if he drew some offence, I am sorry he drew offence and I will tell him aqain thera was no need to draw offence. I think that I can tell him that if I feel he has done somethinq offensive ,I shall make it perfectly clear in this House usinq the procedures and the rules of this House to what he has done and to what his remedies are. SOME RON. KEMBE'RS: Hear, hear! MR. S~..AXER: (Simms) Order, please!

With respect to the issue that has been raised, the point of privilaqe that has been raised, I believe. the. matter haa solMWhat..resolved itself in that the hon. ~~~ember - for- th~ straits has -withdrawn; I. wou-ld ·a.ssullle"" 1 • any implic:ations. cthat. the-.hon-m:inistel:-mi9'ht.J:1ave. suspected- . MR. WBI'l'Z : !Ut. SP!:ADR: MR. WHITE: ORAL QUESTIONS Mr. SpeakaJ: • The hon. member for t.ewisporte. ~ir, I have a question- I would like to direct to the Minister of Health (Mr.House) and I should say that I do not want this matter to be in any way antaqcnistic or anythinq else.

I just want to asJc some straiqhtforward ~stions .,.

Auqust 2,1979 Tape No. 472 AH-2 MR. mrrTE": reqardinq the suspected case of Reye 's syndrome with a six-month old boy in Stanhope, not in Lewisporte as was reported in the paper 1 but in Stanhope. I wonder if thoe ~inister could tell ':he P.o\me whether. or not t.'l.ere !las •"been . a definite diaqnosis of the problem and. whether it has been defini-:.aly determined that the situation is Reye's syndrome and the disease is Reye ' s syndrome 1 MR. SPEAKER: (Sill'IIIIS) Realth. MR. HOUSE: The hon. Minister of Mr.

Speaker, I have been in contact with the Janeway !iospital two or three days aqo when first I heard about it and I think the te:ca that they are usinq is that it has been clinically determined that that is what the ease is, Reye' s syndrane • It has all the symptau but they have not made a definite determination that it is Reye's syndrome 1 but it has all the symptoms of it. MR. "liM'l'E : MR. SPEAlCER: hon. member for Lewisporte. MR. WHIT!!: A supplementary. A supplemenury.

The I sort of qained from readinq some press reports that 111aybe the tnA!Idical staff who are dealinq with this problem - I do not want to eri.ticize them- are not all tha.t. famili.al::.wi.th..it and-:t.am .. wanderinq· if_ thSocminiat~p-lans:: .. -- to brinq in some outside.. expez:ts..oz:-_i.L--anythinq a.l:onqo-those- lines:. a2:eeo. -'---·'c. be.inq comtemplated-at tha-.mcment:. to.. determine- whet.he~ -or,.not-- 1205 -·

Auquat 2 I 1~79 MR. p. WErrE: because it is & serious matter. MR. SPDICE& (S~) - . - MR. HOtlSE& Tape 473 EC - l 'Ihe hen. U1e !U.niste:r: of ifeaJ.th. - Mr. Spe~, this cue, u I 11181ltionac1, is at. the J.n-ay. It is a -dLcal preble• and. one, of COI.IX'Se, wben - Q51ect: tn.a to do what cu be dona aDd - tAiAic th.y .us daiAq ~t can be dona, but I aouat if we could even tl:y 1:0 ~ct t:h.- 1:0 do & cert&:i.A tbiAq. :t belia.,.. that they ars contaetinq .U.l the rMOurc:as thay can 1:0 see wh&t can be done, wnat they think is best for tl1e cbild. MR. r. WIU"r!:: A supple..ntuy, Mr. Spealcer. MR.

SPEAICER: t.wisporte. MR. r. WBXTZ: A suppl.-tary, tba hoD. tl1e Dalllber for Mr. Spau-r, I would. UXe to ask the Minister of HeaJ.th whether or not any extrac:r:d1Auy attention is 9Qinq to be pud to thia. He says it is a <ii.seue and. it is beiDq lullcilecl by the a.clie&l people and so on, but iA view of contro'ft%Siea tha.t lla..,.. ans1111. .Uewb.en 1 -anct- ilJ$. vi.-~"tlJao.ap~~· baz&>md:.-sc. ozr .. ,....ami:: .::.. : : . .. -. . ~ .­ I c:ert:Unl.y do not wmt to liDlc. the. two at this. staqe. __ whe.tbal:.. or not __ _ _ UJ'f extraordi.nuy attention will be pUd to this p&rt:l~ si.tu&ti.cm?- - - - - MR.

SPEAXEl'l.: MR. !lOUSE: Mr. Spealcer, yu, tllera is extr~rcliAuy attenticm.~~-~t:~st&t£:-ckaalt~~O'f'' CO~~- --=""-"'--,;"•- · ;=- · :t -ti.oneG;- b~~cat' "O"f.fiC'8r< :tnirii'S'a~ tbr-'dap~t. ~t:.- a--rbeen.-:- - : ,., - --­ st&tacl# o:f ~ u::7tlze:..~ 'j'g&t".; ~ecir;. "tb&~·tber.-: III&T"bet:sa--: . .... -. .,..,.,. ~~ COilllllct1oll bet!N~ ~ the=.spr&Jr ·'·P404 ·1-...,;._ : X· tbinlr;· th&~ ia. Olll.y.-_z :: - ~:; -~-­ just suapid.oll. 'l:hue hu --r ~ a de~ti.Oil that then ia a umr:.

I belle,. somebody.. .usaa · the:.~ th&L..iJ:...~c:t.iQn_:_th&t:-...:..=::·.:.. .:. __ _ sets iA with a vi.ru. &llli. a m••ical •ncl the?~ mUii.cal.------- . that wu used. a- couple -of years. aqo ·.JII&y-ba tha..ana.-Buto.th&t:.<oua. wa&~ ..... - _ _ -a.eci in tl1e put yu.r alld. t:tU.s c:bi.ld. is j uat fiva .IIICilt.hs old. _.B~tt, .there. will be ext.raortl.i.D£y effort because there is a COIIIIIIi.ttae, I think, wzk1zl.q on that, dDinq resaa.rdl in it, which. is repnsentatiw. of the Mari.tiaaa or the Atl&tic Provinces &ci the Oni.tad Stataa, I bal.iave, thll seaboard states whara the spray llu been conduc:t:ac1 iA t11e put f- years. 1206

Azlquat 2, 1979 IIR. SPEAD& (Simlal) MR. JAMIESON: Tape 473 EC - 2 Tha hon. tha Leader of the Oppoaiticn. Mr. Spaalcar, I aa- ~ quastiou. !or the ID vi- of t.b.a amfusinq allli 1 to s~ da~, Q)llfl.icd.zlq :aports o-r tba . lut coupla of ciaya wi.t:A requd to oll suppl.i.u fol: Eataz:D cu.d& mel ~ po8a:UU.a t.b.ru.t to thea u a n.ult: of ~t: incJec:Uiaft u to wbo ia qoinq to De the uqoU.tinq party !or cauda, and. sizlc:a- iD Newfoandland, of coura-, ara vary laiiCil iDTOl.vaci iD te~ of sec:w:1.ty of supply on vazioua peb:al•- pmducts mel tha lilc.e, I wcmdar i.f tha Pn&u hu bean ia taucll wi t.b.

OttaW&, wtwther or nat: he caD c:a~~t my llg.b.t ou. tha situ.J~.tion or wbether ha ililllllal.l shares o~~~.y of tb.a COnc:al:DII that. ha- baeD axp:ra ... ci? MR. SPDICElb 'l'tw hon. tb.e PruD.er. Well., Mr. Spe&ku, I •• abviowrly, aa ccmc:uned. u any ottwr EaatuD. canedi an iD the whola quutiou. of oll supply ~ hydrocaDIOD. supply for hatun Cm.ill1& u I 9Wla& - Ul. an for a.U 1207

Auqust 2, 1979 Tape No. 474 SD - l PREMIER .E'EClG'ORD: of canma. I have not been in tc=h with tir. Hnatyshyn this IIICJ:ninq but I have ta.J.lced to t:lle Minister of Energy abo~o~t it and we will be punW.Z~q t:l1e matts with Mr. !ina tyshyn and other people in Ottawa. over the next number of days. I iwi an ini ti.U talk with the Minister of Finance (Hon. J. Crosbie) in Ottawa. abo~o~t the matter on Mand&y wt I have nat had an opportunity t:llis morninq to follQ!ol' it up with a. talk with Mr. ·!!natysbyn but we intiUld tc do that, the Minister of Energy a.nd myself,over tha next .• couple of days.

I held off this morn:inq 1 besides beinq bwr.t and bai.nq involved in Cabinet maetinqa this morninq, I held off aJ.so because I wanted to fully discuss it a.t an inte.rqoveri)IIIalltal level with •u-. J4.r'lis , the Inte.rqoverzmaental Affairs ainis ter, w.bc will be llere in the Province in the next couple of days ; he wil.l be bse on Tuesday and I wil.l be havinq extensive meetings with !tim. as -u a.s other matters with him. So, we are concerned and - - fami J; n: with the problem.

I have a.lso, may I say, fourthly, for the benefit of the Leader of the- Opposition (Ml.-. o·.-Jamiesonl and,- ·· fa: the benefit of the House,met . with t:ha Pres;ident of Peuo-Cana.da, week and a.· ball a.qo, I talk- to · M.r• cros.bir,- initially · talked - tc - - Mi.niatc of Energy fa: our l!'rc:rvince (M.r. L. ~) and. with lu-. Jarvis on Tuesday. MR. 0. JAMIESON·s · MR;; SPEAICER: (Silzlms') the Opposition. MR. D. JAMU:SON s I thiulk t:ha bon. the Premier for ll.is a.nswer and I suz:e hope he will keep 1.15 info;cned. May I , on the broader question. which obviously must have fcmned the basis of scae 1208·

AUgust 2, 1979 Tape No. 474 SD - 2 MR. 0. .nu-uESON: of those conversations to which ne re£~d, mat I ask h.i:zl whether in fact NewfourxiJ ADd through him or through one of his ministers has made known to tbe governmant in Ottawa its views with reqcu:cl to tile future of Petro-ca.aada:?

In view of the deep involv~~~~~ent of Petro-<:anada with so much of the offsmr• developiiiBnt and indeed tile rather ccmplementcu:y thiDqs which fram. ~ tQ time the han. the Premier has had. to say about Petro--canada as a partner, wbetner or llOt he is in favour of a.IlCi supports the iclea. il in fact the Federal GoVernment carries out ita original plan to clanqe the statns of that into a privata corporation? MR. SPEAKER: The hen. the PreaU.er. PREMIER PECl:(FORD: Yes, :-~r. Spealcsr, I have given SQI!le initial views ta the Minister of Fiuanc• (Mr.

J. ~sbie) in thB context of the pllDlic statlllllllnt.s that ! have made over the last llUIIIber of IIIQnths especially as it relates to our own pard.cular case of offshore development and exploration. We reserve a fiAal position on the 1209

Auqust 2, 1979 Tape Mo. 475 ow- l PREMIER E'Eo:FORD: composition, the lonqevity of Pet:ro-canada until such timet as, for: eJCaJDple, Mr. f!opper • s comments. Mow we have his briefing in the last week f:rom him. I have talked to • the Minister of Finance (Mr. Crosbie) and talked to Mr. Janis, then we will be putting clearly a position forward as to how we see Petro-canada i~the next number of years. MR. D. JAMIESON: MR. SPEJ.XER (S:IMMS) : the· opposition. MR. 0. JAMIESON : A suppleJIIIUltary, Mr. Speaker. one more supplementary, the hon.

Leeder of Just seeking additional informetian,and I can understand that on sOIIII!thing this important the Premier would not want to make any off-thti-cuff co~~~~~~ent, but may I ask him very directly 1 for example, whether or not the Government of Newfoundland would view with conce:n any siqnificant change in the statue of Pet...-o-canada from a Crown corporation to one in which presumably private ownership would dominate? MR. SPEAICER: The horr. the- Premier-.- - · PREMXER P!:OU'ORD: Mr.

Speaker, I cannot give a direct answer to that que•tion because that- is the -whOle substance of the discussions that we are now ha'lring and the br:iefinq we are nov having. I am also eager to talk to so-- o~ U1e--01::her: Preatie-rso about , -this 7 especially. . tha... Eastern Premiers ·,. I· have- not- hlld~·the- o~- ta-talk- a,, Mr. Mac:Lealr-or-- --- -·- --­ Mr. aatfiald or Mr. Buchanan in any detul on this. At the Prudar'lt conference I intend- to ruse - it on t.>teclSth" of August.

I~ thinlc-it ·-· i&- important- also; e"ftlt-thouqh~ lit' -deta-.Ue-d-· poutioa. b,...·go.ve:mmene- - ~, -- -·· right nov carmot be given really, but I think it is impottant for us to give one very soon and I would ' look at a time · frama of-t.'te-end- of August that we would ' be in t position· to• fully · recollllleftd~ to. :Otta-.- ·- -· · , --· · MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for LaPoile. 121.0

Auqust 2, 1979 Tapa NO. 475 ow- 2 MR. 5. NEARY: Mr. Speak~, my queseicn is for the hon. the Premier, . Sir. Would the bon. qentleman indicate to the House if there i!ra ~ new devel~ts in connection wit!\ the t:JI~per Churehill ,~ the I.ow8r Churcbill, any pilot projects plaJmed for the upper Churctlill or for the I.CNer Churchill. Mllsltrat Falls , anythinq at all. new that the hon. ~allan can report on eith~ the cpper Churchill or the :r.o-r Churchill? MR. SPEAICEll: 'l'he hon. the Prem.ier. JRE!«ER PEOCPO!ID: No , Mr. Spealter, I do not think anythinq new.

The :r.a-r Charchill Oeveloplllent COrporaeion an continu.inq their studies aud contracts have been awarde<i to various consul.taDts for work both on the straits crossinq and u it :z:elates to doinq deta.:i.led enqmeer­ inq and usesa..nt work at Mllakrat Falls. The court case is conticuinq on the Opper Churchill. There are 111411Y f%0111 around North America and the world. I quen, wbo are exprasainq interest in Labrador developmant ot one sort and another dealinCJ with power and other thinqs. Most of the ~ are clearly lcnOwn by eve%7body and.- are eaqer to pursue and to ancouraqe the r.over Chureftill.

DeWloplllellt corporation to brl,nCJ iD quickly a "port on

August 2, 1979 Tape No. 476 NM - l PRErMER PECXFORD: their studies so that some kind of a decision as it relates to the Labrador power development can be made in l9BO. MR. NEARY: A supple111enta.ry , !~r. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER ( Simms ) : A supplementary, the hon. ~ember for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Did I understand ~~e hon. gentleman correctly, Sir, that there are no extraordinary plans to try to develop the nydro potential of the Opper Churchill, of Lcbstick Lake,for instance, to develop hydro actually from water that flows throuqh generators that already develop hydro?

Does the . hon. qentlelllall have anything in aU.nd alonq these lines in the ·Nay of a pilot project of anything of that nature? MR. SPEAKER: The hon . the Premier. PREMIER PECXFORD: Mr. Speaker, Lobstick is one potential generatinq source in Labrador that is available . I forget what the megawatt potential of Lobstick is - MR. NEARY: l.S. PREMIER PECXFORD: - around perhaps 100 to 150 ~eqawatts in total. But it would have to be combined with other developments in order to tiUlke it a feasible proposition. - That is- the problem.

If one could ma.ka it. a feasible. prcposi.tioa-f:::om>.& .whol.e:- range. ; of .. diff.erent. . - thinqa-,... either-Mtlakz:at ;t =~. s.,__· of. theo headwat~ t::ha five tiv~ - -·­ bei.nq diverted up that way as well which could qive · you three · or four- meqawatts< wh:icb then could .. pe:::haps;. ·make - the< who:l~ - thinq' feasible~- ·. Bue-ie ·-iso ane;-inter~" pal:t:', ~aa;.~o-r~pac:Jca'FS w&idlranzld;,bF. pu~· · :. ~ ~ - , , _. , -­ eoqether in Labrador power development as we get all the studies done. MR. NEARY: A supplementary · qoesti-on-; - Mr; Spealcer. - ---- .. MR; SPEAKER ts.illrma )':· · - .

A. · final. .· suppl~: -- -the:.ho=-mfl.!.i:le=::.....'"':: .:::·.·:·: .::-.. -.· . - · for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: WOuld the hon. gentleman indicate if one of the people interested in the development of the- Opper Churchi-ll, or · 1212

August 2, 1979 Tape No. 476 NM - 2 MR. NEARY: the Lower Churchill would be Mr. de Rothschild, and ~f so could the han. gentleman give the Souse a proqress report on his meeting yesterday morning at nine-thirty here in Confederat~on Building with my old buddy, Eddy de Rothschild? MR. SPEAKER (Simms ) : The han . the Premier. PREMIER PECn'ORD: Mr.

Speaker, I think I will do some research down in the Regist..ry . of .Deeds in- the. next.- number- of weak.> . to see whether in fact I can find the shareholder list or directors list for a number of companies in Europe, it just might be possible that one of the names that I might come across will be Eddy de Rothschild and his buddy, Stephen A. ~eary. MR. SIMMONS: You will find it under Neary and Rothschild. .SOME HON. MEMBERS: . PREMIER PECKFORD: street with Stephen Neary? MR. F. ---wii:i:Ti; MR. NEARY: PREMIER PECKFORD: Hear, hear! Who is that fellow walking down the Riding in the car-. Riding in the ~bbi tt.

Mr. de Rothschild had a meeting yesterday morning with - me· and re'V'i-ed his -ongoing ·-in1:tK'e!ltc -in=<;etting in;.o-lved"­ c:oiiiPanies .thU. . ha;. i..!L.ras~-- for-Or :in~ i.Jr: . m. anv- - ~ ~o : ·=-= -add.itionaLdellelopmestt:;in:. .t.amado:c:;..; .Of::·c=se.:;.Mr"..: .Rcthsch:dd::- at=.=---=-- - the: · present-moment. :i:s--i:nvoived::: in .companies. .tha~.are... eaqeJ:.. . to..... _ __ : . - ·- = - -,-_ ,~· pllr&Ua..;-thl!"m:an.i.UIII! deve-lopment:" · at.· K±tts~Michel.±n;--He-cwaS" involve<!;; -~~-..:.:- -, -.:. ,::."·:--=-~::- · ..,.. ..., =of:~~ :i:n:.:tna.-tll::i:qj;n:a:ll llpper!:: .~h;i:ll; - deve:l;opmene and: ha::·exp.ressed · :: • · · a general interest in 121.3

AUqu8t 2, 1979 Tape 477 PK - l Premier Peclcford: get~g involved again, not of really specific interest, but a general interest of getting involved or and Labrador power. The gentleman also ~as eager to sell some of his strafflow, low head hydro turbines. There is an Sll million agreement ~ith Ottawa now, just recently siqned,which will see a number of experiments around the Province in low head hydro. There are four or five turbines on the market for low head hydro and - are going to develop a number of sites on the Island in the next number of years to try out this low head hydro. It is h.ighly experimental.

The lll.il rate for most of the low head hydro and the turbines that are used comes in around anywhere from eighty to one hundred mills, which is very expensive power . But it is an experimental thing to see if you can refine it. So it is an interesting turbine that Mr. de Rothschild's c:anpany has and · is marketing around. the· world, _and I think they intend to begin production of it in canada in the near future. So these ~ere the main things talked about in the meeting. And I was very eager to get Mr. de Rothschild' s viewpoint on additiona,l power - aevelopmants .-.in• .

Labl3dor,. and.-w~ ag:z:eed that. we,. would meet a~ · on a.'•·later-datlt' to-:.furl:her- ·discu- these-il14tter&.- aut it was.. more.. general~ than. speci.fic. . The.. blo specific areas . were in having private capital, from sources .· that. ha is aware of, become involved in any future Lallrador power development. MR. SPEAXER (SIMMS): The hon. IJI8IIIb@r for Windsor-Bucha:1s. , MR- rLIGH'l' :· Mr . Speaker, my question. to- -the !l.on- ..

Pr!Diie:~:.. . .. ___ _ is with reqard to the Action cam.dttae i-n- Buctnms-,. a-eCIIIIIItttee' wntclr ·- ·· the Premier is very familiar with, and he has enccuraqad them in t!:eir undertaking. That Committee held meetings over these past couple of

August 2, 1979 Tape 477 PK - 2 ~- Fliqht: days with, qUite posaihly with the Premier b.:imself; they bad n.ot met With. the Premier when I tal.ked to them, but they had -t with tbe Resource ~ttee and. other ministers, and they are in here aDder the threat of almost half the workfort:e of the town havinq notice of layoff and the reirt worlcinq into the early -1980s.

I wonder if the Prellier would be prepared to c0111111ent on . tbe resal ts o·f the meetinqs and. whether the h:tion caaaittea went bac:k to Bucha.ns with ~ ldnd o_f cOIIallit:ments or aware of any activities that would have any . effect in retaininq some jobs in the Buch!ms . area or maintaini.nq an ~11a11y there? MR.. Sl'EAKER (SIMM) : The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PEOQ'Olm: Mr. Speaker, I did not meet with that: · ~· but the Chaiman of the lleSOU%Ce Policy CO.U.ttee of cabinet did meet with that q:rcup anc! I will defer any cletalleci an-r to him.

But just let me say that, yes,.I hAve been very involved in the Action C~tt-, and I thinlt.they aze one of tiM beat q:roaps of individuals representinq an area that I have ever cleaJ.t __ with, a fantastic qroup of people, WDIIderfW.. And I am s-ara the very competent Minister of Mines and Enerqy Ott. Barry) and Industrial. Development, and the Chainnen of the Resource Policy of Cabintst can qive yoq the detaUs 1215 •·

AUC)Uat 2, 1979 T~ 478 EC - l PREMIER PECX!'ORD: can qi. va you the deta.il.ed answer MR. BARR!: Mr. Pt:ellliu, just brief~y, tne IIIAi.u. uaaa that there is· a coan.ction between · B~:&ci:laD.ll'· anct·Soutllwest ~~-- Anct aJ:onq"­ tho-. Un- - di.sc:usaed poaUbla dewl.opMilb in.. the lllininq ancl..fonst:ry uaaa whic:b. miqht laad to access ra&d.s for minerals, for !ores try, whidl West C:Oaat. 'l'he second item th.at wu ciis~llci waa the matter of Pro~ca, and specitical.l.y we disc:u.aed tha potential. for the Bw:llana ana MR. FLI.Gil'l':- MR. SPEAICER: Willdsor - Budlalla. _MR.

FLI.GH'r:.. _ :.. __ ..:.. -_, ______ ..... poarilll.e to brillq into production the various ore bodiu around. the Bw:hana uaa f~ Great B~t -the minbt.r is familiar vith the ora bod.iu. 1216

. N j . . I •·I I' 'I ~ i i 'j t I

__ -_ .. August 2, l979 Tape No. 479 SD - l MR. L. BARE!: The types of assistance, Mr. Speaker, as I understand it, the officials of tha ::lepartmelit. of Mines a.ad Energy are avail.&ble ami b.ave in fact been involved in supplyinq aasiatance in the way of geoloqical informa.ti,gn ai:Ki so on tc t..i.e various ca~~panies.

As far as specific subsidizes are concerned, tb.e way tb.is govermllent operates is not t:.o provide aJlli open ellQed bl.ank cheque to any dewlopment proposal, but rather to have a company co- in with a feasibility s.z:uciy of. a. pa.rticu.lal:...pJ:Cject,_ whether it be m.iniDq or otherwise 1and then - if the- company satisfies goveriJment that certain assistance on . .:..nfra.st:ucture .· sucb.. as_ . roacia is necessary in oz:cier to 111ake the project viable, gover11111ent is prepared to look at that aJlli to !1890tiata with the campany aa to gcvermant's ilwolvemant but not to give a blank cheque aa had, unfortunate.ly 1 in the past lUI;l us into 'di.fficuJ.ty on ~~~any occasions.

MR. G. FLIGHT: ~IR. SPEAKER: (SilJms) :•- ·· for Windsor - Buc::hans. MR. G. E'LIGH'l': Fizal supplementary, Mr. Speake:c. F1il0ll supplementa~:y.,_ ~ilon._ IIIUiber -" . -- ., .. . _ In view of tha minister's ~.

I would like to ask this quest-ian and- uybe we· wi:l-1- s- a new­ approach-~- a-· n-.mimstac.· ' .l!ric.a::: (Hfl~ .Mimu:al.-~'li«ion,-.:--"" """"' .. - . in conj WI!Ction< wiJ:i1,:...ASAIICQ;.: .ha.Ve!. beazt.: s;i..ttiDq, -on. .Xe.- bodiea,. ]QlQwn.._ discovered orao boches.. wil:b;...up.. to_ ontL lllilliQn - tons of re:~arves - ·- des:i.;qa.staclj; • i.ndicated. ·i· f&i.r~r .tU.qh~ qrad...-.a.ad.llas. shown - no dasi.re- ' · -= - ---or- ng:,intem:io=llP"ta...~- pcri.Dto.a t:im.er<-:in-to· br1-nq-i:Dq. tboaa: ora::.· . . ....-. ..:·.;_ bociiea into proauct.i.on 1 aJlli if brouqht into prod.uction 100u.ld. have the effect of prolonqinCJ tNr m..i.:llinq--life-·of - the--Buc:hans -llli-nea- and~ ----· ·!;1ere.by · pmvici:izlq- an · ~.ncmy~-c aa..-.louq; _ does.-~ llli:Dist:er. or :, ~e:-:: .,. ~- · ~ ---- . qovel:Ilment,- how: lOZIIIJ is:- this:.gcnr.e:-=-.9QiD;:. :ta. be.~p.r.epancL .toe.., ·- -~ - ~. -::a.-_ ~ow tilose caupanies to sit on tbaae deposits without brinq.inq tbam intc prociuc:t:i.on?- - 'l'he- base meta~ prices- are- right ·. the· comPany admits that; they are the hiqhest they have been for years 1218

Auqust 2, 1979 Tape No. 479 so - 2 t<IR. G. FLIGHT: an;i no J:eason to believe they will go azJ.Y lti.ghu. The ore is tbere, tbe price is tight, how long is the minister going to aJ.low those cc::mpanies to simply sit on them withaut bringing those ore bodies into production? MR. SPEAlCER: MR. I. • BABRl' : The hen. Minister of Mines aDCi Energy. Mr. Speaker, it is our i.nfomation tllat the ccmpanies concerned are spending a considerable sum in detanti.ninq the feaai..bili.ty.

Cl.f..dev.elapinq .these ,, p~icular _deposits a.DCi of discovering other deposits which might mean that there could be a continued work force in tha Bucha.ns area. liowaver 1 Mr. Speaker 1 it is unrealistic to assume that government can or should get involved in the mining industry. I believe personally ~t this is an area better left to private enterprise. It is an area where we ha.va seen considerable private capital invested i~ this Province. It is not an area where I ha.ve fi&&n governmant show any particular expertise in fiNiinq and davelcpinq lllinlts:o ,: And.:.

I. ·s.uqqa&t..J:latr -;l:t<~.~to:.dep&Dii~ to¥- ~ .. ~"-'·=;;r.,_ " " o -­ qreo~.t extent upon the profit motive- a.J:ICi--upon:·tha-·free·enterpr.i:se_--- · system. ADd I would be very surprised if · ther.a was any..: minua.L . deposit in Newfonndlacd tllat coul.d be profitable -;tlul;t::would not be·· developed~ Ma.ybe..........tbe bon-lelllber..muld jndicat.e..ta..m.e_why_ a___,_~~~-- -- .s;cmpa.a.y~'WOU.ld. no.t. .daveJ.op: . a : dapasi:too~ :i:tJtas - ~IIIO.Il~llq:'_propos~lll.c _ __ . _ . 121.9

·- .· .... "- Auqust 2 , l979 MR. SPEAKER: (SIMMS) MR. R. SIMKmS: Tape NO. 480 OW - l The hon. member for Burqeo - Bay d' .::spoir. Mr. Speaker, I have a question or so for the hon. M1ni.ster of Fillanc:e (Dr. Collins). It has to do with the announced tax on media. advertisin<J which he gave notice of in tha Budqet.

First of all. as a pral jmfnary I wonder could the minister indicate whether in fact the tax is now in effect and 1further,if he would indicate - now I presame it is in effect accordinq to the worclinq of the Budqet but if he would c:onfinn th.at - and· secondly, if he would indicate whether gove:mment. now. expects . to.. <Jenerate the kind of revenue · from it that was projected, I think something in the order of the three quarters of a million dollars.

I ask that in liqht of the statements that have bean tll&de or the allegations that have :bean made to the effect that the tax might hava the resul.t of decreasin<J the amounts of money spent on advertisinq~ I wonder then if th& tax is in effect and, s&eondly·, whether the minister is still prepared to stic:Jt with hi:r earlier proj'ec:tion of thre& qum:terF"o-fr~&-m~dcU~~~U'JI'.."',.''<.~~.&!-' . MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of ·Fi:mmc~;- OR. J. COLLINS: Mr.

Speaker, as part" of th~ Budget" debatlr.tbera.-- will be tax bills brought · itrtcrbrincrinter"effece-thrproposa-lis-vat--~-~--. -~. · · In· reqartr ·.tcr antici:pa~-.h&-..net:ecl:-,........,-, .,.,. -.., ._., ~ that there han b&en some ~nts made that ·the retuzns may-not "be-· what - oriqinal:ly·pro:tectee:-·- w.-!Ur¥'8- no---reaaen-~ tbart}los __ ..,._ · · ··· are true • We- are ·- eaz:tai:nly:dzrtend:in~T~e~-~a.t:::iolr.f.l:la1P-;at=- .. ~:>:: ~: . -- · this point:· :izr t.Ule:= we::-ha~no< re.-cm>.:tao:-~ · tha~:t:hc-pza.jM::tions:::-;o"_-.:::::=.,-~ ~ -:: that -.re made by offic:iais- · in.:the .

ElepliX't:lllltnt<-o~ca-were:-not · =· ~ · as accurate as these projeetions=-can-ber.- · They-· are ~expected- to. ,_,. be, I suppose, entirely aecurate 1 they can only be done on the basis of infonnation available; wh.at will ac:t:ually transFi:re is proof 1220

p.uc;ust 2, 1979 Tape No. 480 Dif - 2 DR..J. COLLINS: of the puddinq but as far as the projeetions go we are convinced that the projections were valid ones but we wiU ~check t hem. MR. !t. SIMMONS: A supplamentuy , Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAJ:ER (SIMMS) : A suppleiiiBiltuy, the hon. member for BIU'c;eo - Bay d' Espoir. MR. a. SIMMONS : Mr. Speaker, a supplementuy to the same minister.

I understand that · in. the last few days respondinq to so- press questions -perhaps by radio, as I remember - the lllinister indicated that he had some second thouqhts abOut the ~vartisinq tax in that he is· : prepared to consider certain chanc;es, certain llmpravellleDtS prob&Qly by way of requlation and/or leqislation. I wonder would the minister indicate to the House the nature of the c:banqe11 he is c:cnsiderinq? MR. SPEJUCJ!:R: Han. minister. DR. J'. COLLINS : Mr.

Speaker, I think the hon • member is refarrillq to one i tam that -4PP~&red in . a __ local. paper, I just forqet which one now, but it did quota me, I believe, saying that sQIIIe chanc;e vas contamplata4.~-I-~~~-that_was a_mis~derstanding on the part of whoever wrote the report. At no time have I stated that qoYerN~~eDt was c:cnsiderinq amending or- otherwise changing ·the- · ­ proposal thAt was in> theeBudqe-t -•.

L-, __ .inter.n~y:-~. reportar... .·. _ and I - think- - I.. did: say- that . when- tha ~ter- is. - ~eba.tad.. in....t.he.-l!o_us ~­ it is conc:ai~lr that: an-,amandlaent;,.may . be:-.proposed · &nd-_i.t _ is:.. c. conc:ai vab.l-.thAt. the· Ho.use: _ may---accepe. .. an--aa.ncm.ne.~ .I:R&t, this . wlll.... be in the ordinazy expected situation in raqard

Auqust 2,1979 OR.COLLmS: Tape 481 AH-1 to any debate c;oinq on in the House. I may have actually given the vronq impression and if so I am qlad the hon. melllber brouqht it up because at this point· ·in t.illle there is :10 concrete proposal cr concrete thouqht that this measu:z:e will be amended. MR.SIMMONS: MR. SPEAJCER: (Si.Baal hen. lllelllber .for Burqao-Bay o 'Espoir. MR. SIMMONS: A supplementary. A final supplementary. The Mr.

Speaker, perhaps t.he lllinister can c:onfiZlll my conclusion on this. !s he sayinq that he is satisfied with the nature of the proposal,that in the liqht of information that has c011111 his way both publicly and,I would presume, privately durinq the past few days since he aaDounced the proposal, is he still satiafied that the tax on advertisinq is not ill-advised, that it is not potentially a counter productive tax? Is he satisfied that he is doinc; the rlqht thine; in implementinq this proposal without any chanqes since the time of its announcement in the BudC)et Speech?

MR.SPEAJ:ER::. _ __ _ . . _ . __ _ The hen. Minis:taL .of.......=., ... . _ .,;, Finuc:e. !lR.. COLLmS: Mr.

Speaker, I. -thi.nlc wh~ I can say is this, that:.....t:herLhad.been... ;r. nUIIIber of....ind.i.vidua.ls.....an~ - n'llllber of interests Who ha- since indic:ated ·to. qove:mment-·that:-they· ·are-7nct- 'hllppy=·wi~t:b±s: ax-=.NO¥- .tlu:ll"" - W&e:~ 6 expec:tad"'beC'ausri,· _-::_:"<> , __ =- c · . ­ vexy-!lltJCtr<::doubf:o-:~e=is-hap.PY.: -w~dk'-p&~Cilil.aD:-~ ... --~ "· . --~ 'l!her-havrfta11e~WGU:lt.iri.±ks:t~-=-h-. ·~ -··.-.,.." ·· ......;· indicated:-:tha:t::~ WOitl¢- br. q-.I:a~r~-e---wi.~~:oJ:1tCII-:i..vet ~-... --"-"''= · -- -- - infozmation they would 'care to q.i.ve' • .

And.. t:hat iJt u far as- it has - gone at tha. . p:z:esent : tiJDe. Whether thi.s -All be- a.. counter. p=duct.i ve.. --·--· tax - I t:hinlc one. CIODld:- say:-:that abo~ any ... t.ar • . A:l:l. .t...wou.l4. like...ta..._ - indicate ia.. ~ I.do.. no.t think,.tbat.J:bi.Sl>...is.. a;;_par.tic:IUar.J.y- •. COQilter: productive tax any more than perha-ps any.. tax. on. business. is:_. Azrt tax or any return C)Overnments expects frcm business in order to disc:haz9e its responsibilities can be looked upon as beinq saaewhat 1222

Auqust 2,1979 Tape !{o. 481 AH-2 DR. COLLINS: inhibi tinq to business but I do not consider this particular tax to be any IIK:Inl inhibiting or a different clasg of inhibition,shall we say, than any other tax. !'\R. $PVJCI!!lt: , (Si.lnlns)_ tU. for Oral Questions has expired. I would like to welcome to the galleries on behalf of all non. meillbers the Mayor and Councillors of the town of Marystown. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, near! ANSWEl!S TO QUES'l'IONS FOR· WRIOI NOTICI!:· BAS BFEN - GIVE'N"' -·· -- The hon. Minister of Labour and Manpower. MR. DINN: Mr.

Speaker, in answer to a question for the hon. member for LaPoile (Mr.Neary) July, 20th,l979. Since January 1972 wh<at lawyers or law fi.r:ms within the Province of Newfoundland have been enqaqed to cazry out unleqal work for the Worlaaen 1 s C011'1p8J1sation Board? And I nave one copy only. · MR. ROBERI'S : Law firms? !'!R. DINNz taw firm or law firms? Just to cover briefly what the answer says: "Workemen 1 s Compensation Board, 1972. 'I'hOIII&S and attendance at court, $157.00. 'I'hgmes ! . Williams, draftinq amendments to Workemen • s Compensation Act, $100 • 000 . 'I'hous E.

Williams , opinion~ ~d ~aft::i.nq.,_ l.atters.. on- ·varioUSt matters.: S24S. 00. Total . for-- 1972 - the hon. member obviously does:.not WilDt ma. to. go. throuqh. all - caul•, GUhue· and Goodridqe repre11entinq Mr. Leonard Huqhes , Coamissioner at ~rkemen 1 s Compensation Board enquiry, $175.00. WUlia11111 and Williams consul. tation and Research, $337. SO. 'I'he remaininq ones for 1973 were Williams and. Wi 11 i ams foL a..o total. of ,inc:l.udinq .. Stirlinq , _ --··- .

Ryan, Goodridge, Caule, Guahue and Goodridqe, $3,123 . 46. l974,Williams and Williams, consultation and opinions - just givinq exa~~~ples, on 1223

Auc;u.t 2,1979 Tape No. 481 AH-3 MR. OINN: claims, SSO. 00 and so on. Williams Williams and Coombs, consultation and opinion on clai=s, $20.00, and so on down for a total in 1974 of $4,808.15. 1975, 1224

Auquat 2, l979 Tape 482 EC- l MR. DINH: Willlama, Willlama and Coombs for that year, $6,641.69; 1976: Williama, Willlillllll and COOI!Iba, Willi_, WUJ.iams and total of Sll, 708.36, Worlcmlm • s Compensation Board., l977: Wi~, Williau and Buffett all tl1a way ciown the line , $l5 , 9 39 • 32; l978, just to bnU. the tranci of the hem. the ~ for I.Ai'oi.la {Mr. Neary), the total. for l978: . Willi ... , liilliams and. Buffett all tl1a way down the line, $5,479.88. The lay that on the table of the Souse" Mr.- Spealulr. tl1a bon. tha lllelllber for Baie Verta - Whi ta Bay (Mr.

Rideaut) who asked thereof. woainq dil.iqently th1.s . IIIQrn:inq_ De:weea. g~.oo _ anci 9:.30 .mel rq offic:ials WO%kinq yesterday afternoon, :t. on:ly had. time to. qet-one. answer- . prepuad.. I lla4 the anawer with- JDa; all IIIQxninq anci dici. not qet a cbanca to qet it copied, so I wi.l.l lay tb.is on the table of the House. And for llyqieDa practic:a•; and there is an expla.ll&tion of all the thinqs that they have wh.ic:h.. is of i.mportanc:a to the bon. IIIUiber - the c:ompany haa on fUe the nu.s of all wozlcars who na- been employeci in Albocate operations 1225

-. Auqust l, 1979 Tape 482 EC - Z MR. DDIH: since 1963. Files of 1,600 workers Which include the present work force ara beinq proc:eaae4 so that ~ Clmtral. raqiaay lll&y-b. astai;..i.isbe¢ ·in· th• ·occupad:.onai · ife&lt:b: and. S&fety ~vision. 'ale na.s, Mciie&l. certificate n~ and. oc:c:apatioa.s bald. of all the workers will be stored. with eacll ind.ivicl.ual.' s awat X•R&ys i:t a place to be c:laai.qn&tad in the n- buildinq, u I sUd. yutiU:'day, wben we qet all of ou: st&ff in the 011e b-uil.dinq here in St. Jobll' s. Speciit.L X•R&y equi~t vas qiwn to- Dr.

Mc:I.auqhl.-, .-Profes.ar of- Rluiiol.oqy,--- · Muorial. aniversity, and. Dr. McLouqhlu ucla f.i.lla rac:oD~~~aAcl.at:.ioDL.fo:c.. ~=---ts for X-Ra.ys. 'l'l1e ~tis "-Ppuantly satiafac:tary, but ~:hare axe illprow-ts with respect to film, etc. 1 education p1:0qr~, and. so 011. SO I wi.l.l lay thia on the tabl.e of the !louse ill the nope that any a.d:lers wbo n.A tile illfcmu.Uon.. caD. .qa1: c:opies-frosa the- table. MR. SPEAICER: (SU.S I MR. SDDIJHS: MR. SPEU:Ell: SOIIB ROll. MEMBE1lS a MR. SIMMOHS: Hear 1 baa:!-. ORDE:RS OF THE tlU Orcl.ar 3. Coaaitta&..~y:-aa.Q;. ~-- - - _,~,_ ... _. ....,.. ,._~ , Mr.

Spealc.er. - -- -·. ~ o - '!.'he lloll. the melllber !o:r: Bw:qeo - Bay ci.'Espoi.:r:. Bllcl.qat ~ate-- Al.%1a&cly-._we-....ha.-...~rollll0-~ o_f..fiD.mca. (~J C?l_l fuL - in- bri.DCJiD<T dGIIIDdti.s.Budqet .. aiUi-t:his.. ia... ~ fUst....appol'!'JPj ~ .tb&:..BoQM:..- ~·..., ., . .. - ----,._- _:_ will ha.,..ba t:o -&ddz:e•• -~t:s•J t:-ta:-~udqeto;.; .. ~a,s;,yo~-"'~~- r------~-=. _ Mr. Spe.Jcar1 the · first· spealcar foJ::.-t:he-Oppoai.:i~raply-inq . to..-tb&-qow=-nt.- IIIOticm. in tbJ.a part:.icuU:r: cue does have lmlllaitecl. U... i.Dcludacl. lmdar the new rules.

L h&ve been.. 1a:1a1111t. to spe.C- -in thi.a- dabate ·.- ,. 1226

August 2, 1979 Tape !{o. 483 NM- 1 MR. SIMMONS: for two hours on one occasion and three and a balf hours on another occasion, and I think my friend fr0111 Bonavista South (Mr. Morgan) will remember . an occasion when I spoke for a total of seventeen hours . AN HON. MEMBER: ( Inaudil:lle) . MR. SIMMONS: Well,we bad some things that had to be said a!ld it tOok some time to say them. I want to give notice, Mr. Speaker, that I one, fully expect to avail of my unlimited -time but I have no aspirations to enter into any new

definitions of unlimited time. I do have a few things I want to say but I think we can say them fairly expeditiously and it is not my intent at this point in time to talk for any undue length of time though I will to some degree avail of the provision that the first spokesman for the Opposition, in this case myself, as the spokesman on Finanee for the Opposition, I will avail of the provision of being able to go beyond ~e thirty minutes which is provided for all members under the new rules.but MR. NEARY: The guillotine. MR.

SIMMONS: - the guiliotine rule of thirty minutes but not to qo on indefinituy La5sure membe= of- the. aouse .-- . It seems to me, Mr. Speaker, that the overriding consideration,before we get into matters related to the Budget as such, the overriding . consideratilm.. we. ought ta bear-il L - mind is that. wa._have..a . -.reey. ~erent. Rouse, it. is.. a. new House of Assembly F ~ n-• General. ~ Asa-aLy .. 91-eoteci.>'-oc- Juneo·lSth ·;"' in· wb::i.ch.-. th-!0~-:-:- · people of Newfoundland gave a decisive mandate to the party which nov forms the government, and with that in mind - AN HON. MEMBER.: Hear, hear! MR.

SIMMONS: There is still one person over there happy about that, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

August 2, 1979 Tape No. 483 NM- 2 MR. SIMMONS: - with that in mind, Mr. Speaker, I believe quite candidly and I ha•;e been saying so publicly, and in our caw:u.s meetings , as indeed have all members of our caucus, within a month or two after the election it •.ould be highly counter-productive for an Opposition to spend an undue amount of time taking the government to task for various programmes or various sins of ommission and commission. I believe what we ought to do and what we owe to this House and the:. people _ of.

New£cundl.a!liL.is-tc •.. stand back for a while, not to neglect our function but to do it rather differently, to stand back for a while and to. watch th'! performance of this government.

And so I am giving notice and I think in our actions in the House dux:ing the past month you probably had notice_, de facto notice, that it is our full intention not necessarily to talk all the time but to watch very carefully and to allow this government to operate within its newly garnered mandate in the June 18th. election, give it ' some time --qive it- enougtrropB"ane·eventua-ll?<"it.will~:: da: :the:-::: job or hang itself as the case may be. I have- r:Jrf predictions - on that point, Mr. Speaker, but I wilL save thesa..too •.

It being so new intO -the new mandate ·, and· so- ·hot- · a- SUIIIIIIer' s. day-, - matters other than the Bouse :.i.tself..._ And-_L am sure_my _colleaque · from Kilbride- (Mr; R·--· Aylward)~ -shares:llly:-feelinq onocthat: particala.J:: -- - ~~~atter . Mr . Speaker , there are SOII\9 things- that need to be said about the budget and I shall try to say- - welcome a number of items · in the--Budget ; ·I · am ~very p:leased, as~ "--- "~ I said to the Premier a few days ago, I am--- very pleased· with; the - - Premier's decision · and-the · ·governmene•s- -dec±sion- :i:n--respect-to-the-- 1228

Auqust 2, 1979 Tape No. 483 NH - 3 MR. SIMMONS: Economic council of Newfoundland and Labrador. I hope that he will qive notice, u he inciicated the otller day lle adqht do, qi.ve ~ice very soon and perhaps throuqh a white paper or whatever vehicle, qive notice of sOIIIethinq of the structure and the terms of reference and the mandata of that particular council.

But I can see that if that council is properly cQDStruc:ted with the proper depth and breath of representation, with a qood fairly unfettered" mandate, ncn:-a 'licence · to say- nasty- · --- · - thinqs for its own sake b11t a fairly unfettered IIIAJlda.te so it will have some I!WloeUlre:rinq 0:00111 to do the job that it has to de. I believe i£ that council br so structured th~ we can look for some fairly productive work fr0111 it. We shollld not see the counc:il as any pa.rti.c:uJ.ar panacea out aqain t .believe I know t.be Pretllier well enouqb. to know that he 1229

August 2, 1979 Tape 484 PK - l Mr. Simmons: will not view it as such at all. And I am lookinq forward very much to that Council. I commend the qove:cuDellt, Mr. Speaker, for its decision to set up the Council. I hope it will now move to do it fa.irly quiclcly without doinq it in such haste as to sacrifice its real effect. Mr. Speaker, I commend;also 1 the government in its decision to support financially The Status of W0111en Council as provided for in the Premier' s estimates.

I think this,too 1 is very much a step in the right direction and others of my colleagues, including, in particular, the Leader of the Opposition, will be havinq sanethinq particular, some specific to say on this particular item. I am only disappointed that the Minister of Education (Ms. varqe) is not here at this particular time because I was goinq to invite her· at some point to give the Elouse t:Ae benefit of her views, her considerable views and experience on this very important subject.

And I hope in time 1 either in the Budqet debate or elsewhere, the Minister of Education will take some time on this very important subject. But just for me to say, Mr. Speaker, at the moment, in passinq,t:hat I commend ~~a government for this particular initiative as well and look forward to its implementation. Mr.

Speaker, there-< are:. oth~~ps:.. in..this 2rmrince _ which have been overlooked in the Budqet, which need some attention, which need a stronq voice, which need sane financi.a..l impetus, I am thinking of... qD)ups such. as. senio:~:. c i ti.zens.,... such_as. .. the. handicapped, suchas the· mentally . retarded.., I do...not . t:hink, Mr. • . Speaker, that -we are gi.vinqo- enough · attentiorrta' those- ·pa:rtic:u:lar · g;r:oups" ·TJ:te- need is there. And I hope gove:rmaent will see the need to a larger deqree than it has, and do sa-thinq about it. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, a point of order. I do not wish to- MR.

SIMMONS: No. It is the noise. problem. MR. NE:Afi: Mr. Speaker, there is an awful hum coming from out in the corridor, sir. I can harcUy hear my hon. colleague even though I am seated right next to him. There is an awful distraction 1.230

August 2, l979 Tape 484 PK- 2 Mr. Neary: coming from the other side of the House, Sir. Could we get it rectified, Mr. Speaker? MR. SPEAKER (BUT"l'l : I aqree. Order, please in the corridors. MR. S:IMMONS: I thank my friend for Lal'oile (Mr. Nearyl because I was getting somewhat distracted and about to make the point myself, but I thAnk him for making it. Mr. Speaker, I want to commend also the government in relation to the Budget for its giving notice to fund the Newfoundland and Labrador Arts Council. is very much a step in the · =ight direction.

I think, too, that this And I like the emphasis tlmt has been articulated insofar as cultural identity is concerned, and I believe the decision 1!:0 fund the Council . is a step in the right direction. And it is like all these matters,they can be used or abused depending on how they are implemented, but only time can tell that and we in time will avail of our full opportunity to criticize or· to appraise where necessary. Mr. Speaker, while I am in the mood to commend there is one other thing in the Budget, at least, I say to the M:inistel! of Finance (Or .

Collins) that I would like. .tc. pal!ticula:d.y commen!4- and that is the government's decision to taka the tax off books. He will recall, I · believe, that-it war.-I wno~· stood · llere":just-afte:r:.he ·.~-- ~ - · --­ becaDMt Minister of.

Finance and dl!ew to. his- attention the. . fact tha.t. we . . _were the onJ.y Province :in._canada_with-..a. taL.on. books-and..L..dc. not . -knew -- if ~- is- where . tha.-i.deA- Ol!i..ginatad or.. not,c .that is nct :cimpor:tanl:'; but I do. lalcw , that: · -addz:essedi.·ourse~s-~to=it-here=samer. mcnthsra~ ~ :-: : Anct I was personally , and particularly pleased · to see the. tax· had. been taken off books as it had already been taken off or never put on elsewhere in Canada. Now, Mr.

Spealcer, these are soma c.£ · the. · things about the Budget Speech and the· Budget::-measm:es whicb:. 7.I· pal!ticularlr. commend. I want to put tr..at right at the top of my few words, because there are some items in this particular Budget that are not quite as commendable. Each of the items I mentioned, Mr. Speaker, the Status 1231.

1\.uqust 2, l 979 Tapa 484 PX - 3 Mr. Slmmons: of Women Council., t'he EcollCIILic Council., The Arts COIUlCil., the decision to take the tax off books, these fCIU' a.nd others , each of these real.ly deserve ~ fair amount of t.imo, a.- fair iQIIOUZl:t of clla.l09UB if we are to do justice to them. But as r said in the beqinn1nq of lilY re'I!Brks, it is· not my intction to launch into eztensiva dissertations on each oi the subjects as much, as perhaps, they are required.

I believe the timinq of the Budqet Speech riqht now is such. that, I aiD not sura a. lot needs to be said riqht now until we qiva time for this govertlllleilt, over the next few 11110ftths7 to test its metal, to put its money where its IIIOUth is, to see i£ it can deliver on the cOlai ·tments to the Newfoundland people, a.nd then come next Budqat time, I think, we will be in ~ mw:h better position to assess. I am aware of the arqumem: , that I have put and others have put that this- AM HQH. ~ (Ina~le). .. ...... 1.232

August 2, 1979 Tape No. 485 OW - l MR. R. SDIMO!lS: -right, the experts, you are right - this gove:rm~~~mt has increased tax so that the rate is not the same the rate of collection, the percentage in 1972 is not the same as 1979. Well, what does that say? All it says is that the government must bear even more responsibility for the increase because it overtly,deliberately and through legislation increased the rate of tax. And, secondly, M:r'. Speaker, it will be argaed, 'Well, the increase since 1972 is related to increases in sales volumes or in personal incomes in this case. AN RON.

MEMBER: Yes, that is the (inaudible). MR. R. SIM!oiJNS: That is right! And they are right again. Of course,a person is earning more per capita in 1979 than he was in 1972. And there I come to rzry point, Mr. Speaker, the government is the benefactllr of a windfall tax. The government is the benefactor of windfall. profits on inCOIIIe tax, on ntail sales tax. Let me do a comparison for you on that 'one.I mentioned that personal income tax has gone up 443 per cent since 1972. What about retail sales tax?

John 'put her under' Cl:osbie in 1972, told us that he expected to collect $50 million on retail sales ·· off the baclcs of the consumers of this Province. $50 million! And he did. Everything cros.bie said he '-«)uld do to the ccnsumers, he always did. His promises to do so-thing for consumers are another. matter because he is up then now saying, 'Well, all the promises we made dllring the election we might not be able to afford them, you know.' MR. S. ~: No, because he is blaming it on the Liberals. Be is doing the same thing up there as he did here. having a wi. tchhunt. MR. WHITE: Be changed the script. MR. R.

SIMKINS: That is right! tish and Chips they call them. Chips is it? MR. S. NEARY: Yes. MR. R. SIMMONS: They call him 'Chips ' • We will Und another name, will you work on it? 1233

August 2, 1979, Tape 485, Page 2 -- apb MR. SIMMONS : "Retail sales tax, SSO million", says John •put her under' Crosbie in 1972. Then there comes another John. MR. NEAU: Oh doctor, oh doctor, oh dear Doctor John/ Your cod liver oil is so pure and so strong. MR. SIMMONS : Another John tells us in 1979 t:hat he is qoinq to collect not $50 million as 'put her under' John did in 1972, but 'Sunset' john, good ol.d "Sunset' John - MR. NEARl': The cod liver oil man. MR.

SIMMONS: - is going to col.lect of£ the backs of the Newfoundl.and people, $203 million - a 300 per cent increase~ A fourfold increase. w1lil.e food prices go up 77 per cent, retail sal.es tax, thanks to this government, goes up 300 per cent. we get al.l worked up about food prices. This guy in the States, what is his name? The tax revolt guy, proposition 13? AN HON. MEMBER: MR. SIMMONS: MR·. WHID: MR. SIMMONS: !Iuqhes. Huqhes, yes. !Ie had the riqht idea. That is Howard Jcu;vis. Jarvis, he had the right idea. And I believe, Mr.

Speaker, that one of those days you are qoinq to have a Jarvis here in Newfoundl.and because lore are missing the whole point, Mr. Speaker. It is a great game for government to draw· attention to items like electricity prices, like food prices, both of which are killing the Newfoundland consumer, but relatively speaking, Mr. SpeaJcer, they are not nearly as crippling as the real cause of the consUIIIer' s probl.ems , the- windfall profits from escalating taxes, the i:ccreue in: big_gove~t:.. .- When you look, Mr.

Speaker, at the salary detail. - it is here somewhere - for this year and compare it to seven yean ago and look not only at the salaries - I understand the individual salary has inflated in seven years, in fact, I get the :eeling they have inflated 1110re than mine has in seven years - but I draw your attention to something else, look at the numbers, Mr. Speaker. If it takes four times as many mandarins to advise the minister in 1979 than it did in 1972, what does it mean? That the minister seven years aqo .,q,s four times as stunned? That the

AUCJUSt 2, 1979, Tape 485 , Paqe 3 - apb Mit. SDIMJNS: utandarins were only one...quarter as intellic:J8nt? I can understand you might need a new analy~St or a new adviser, but I ask gove:m.ent lllelllbers to just looJt at the sal.uy <ietail and l.ooJt at the 1.UlreStra.inad growth u goverJIIDBQt. Look a.t the n1llllber.s who . depend on the public aeasury for a llvalihood and· it is absolutely frighteninq. ADd there is a goo4 part of your cost, in this tittle .blue, appropriately Toxy blue docmment. aqain.

The c;ovemment qets the windfall profits bec::ause of inflati.o .n and says, Well, we have the money, we might as well hire a few mere people. The Minister of Rural Oevel.opment (Hr. Goudie) finds himself in a vexy unenviable posi~. 1235

August 2, 1979 Tape No. 486 so - l MR.. R. SIMMONS: Indeed his .o?~fo:cnance in cclllllli ttee, if I can read 1 if I can interpret from or extrapolate from press reports, !U.s perfo.rma.nce in committee indicates that he gives his answers more in sadness then in pride. His. answen ab9ut the progra11111es of his government, his adminiatration leave him embarrassed. He is not very proud,he does not defend with very liiUch enthusiasm I gather fra11 press reports. And I know the ~~~an, I kiicw him well, ailli I lalaw that ilis embarrasSIIISnt reflect~> !U.s true commitment. to rural Newfow:dland.

And it must be cti.fficul t, I say to the lti.nister of Rural Development (Mr. J. GoUlii.el , to defeJld. the indefensible, to defend. a cutback, to try ancl ver.bali.ze that a cu~ is justi.fible when in your heart of hearts you know it is not ju.stifibl.e, as he knows. I deplore the cutbacks in the resource areas , Mr. Speaker. I deplore 1 Mr. Speaker, about t.h:i.s Bud9et - Mr.

Speaker, I can make this speech in an hour or I =n ,,,;Ual it in ten hours and that will depezxi on whether I have to c:aqM~te for the rest of the afternoon with the two lllinisters across the !:louse who, after you a.sucl th8111 to be quite outliicle, came inside and continued tbair . conversation- - It is very distra~q aDd I have got UJ. the time in the world. 1m. SPEJUCER: (BUtt) Order, please! Allow the hoa. gent.lanan to proceed in silence. Mlt. WHZTE: Hear , hear. :1&.·· R. S:tMK>NS a Now., Mr. Speakal:, !.....depJ.ore: _tJ:Ia, __ - · .· overall dec aptian i.n. this Bwiqat on two poj.Ats.

First of all, in respect to its pronouncements abOut resource development? tf :z~ read tha first half of this docUIIIent, the sentanc:es and the pa.J:aq:apbs the message is t.h:i.s, · tba meaaaqe in the. Speech-_·'' . , . itself is ,we are qoinq to increase our emphasis.. a resaw::ce: __ . development. That is whAt the Minister of Finance (Dr. J. Collins) is sayi:aq. We are qoi.n.q to increase our emphasis in resource development • our biq thrust this year, the Budqet Speech says , is resource development. That is what the first half of this 1236

Auqust 2, 1979 Tape Na. 486 so - 2 MR. R. SI~NS: document says. That is what the half before the nice picture on the front',whic:h I am told is a. sunrise- I shewed it ta a phatoqraphe= and I said, "What i.a it?• ami he said, "It is either a sunrise or a sunset." aJXi I said, "That is my dilEIIIIIIIa., that is my dilEIIIIIIA, tao. I can not make up my mind." If I read the first half of the dacument, it is definitely sum"ise tallt but if I read what CCIIIles after the goad Tory blue page, it is all sunset, dusk talk. There you are not really sure, Mr.

Speaker, it is-: all nice, new dawn, a.:. new day beginning talk, right thare;~- increase- i.n:.res~ . ~---, development.

But • then the lllinister' s enthusiaatic remarks are undeJ:m.ined by whoever added up the figures, they are unde.rmined bec:au.ae,yau see,he says we are qoinq to do 1110re in rural development but tha paqes which fallow the Tory blue paqa say we are qoillq ta do lass, do not believe what t:he minister tells you over l:lera because the other minister tells yau we are qainq ta spend a million do-llars-less orr-rura.l ·· deve"lopment:-. ·And-th-at- ---- ·• "'~""­ is the message all through t.!lis Budget. 00 . not believe wilat the minister says abOut forestry becau.ae we are goinq ta spellli less. That is it.

And that is why, like the pbotoqrapher told me, it c:auld be either.- It cculd - be a swu:i.se.. ~.L SUD:~at. _ ~ up ta this· particular ·page- - I am not sure · what is. wronq with- him but I am qoinq to. figure out pratty soon wnat is wrong with all of you. SOME RON. MEMBERS " - - ·- . - Oh;· oh!- · Order, please! MR. SPEAKER: (Butt) MR. R. S IMM:)NS : Well, if they want the ten hour 'speech I will qive it ta ths. Mr. Speaker, if· they want ·the ten ho~ speec:b. they will bave it, perscll&lly.,:<. cL ~ed the>£ODa:.hour oDa. ~. : :.::.. -4~ • AN HON. MEMBER: So do I. MR. R. SIMMONS: It could be·, Mr.

Speaker, it could be. The Bllliget bas the potential ta be either a sunrise or a

August 2, l979 Tapa No. 486 SD - 3 M!'t. R. S.IMKJNS: sunset document. But it is the figures that give the. government away. It is the figures that betray the rhetoric, it is the fic;ures that 1238

August 2, 1979 Tape No. 487 NM - 1 MR. SIMMONS: make it a bad speech for the minister. The minister himself did a good job, a nice delivery, fantastic wording, a nice setting that day. Everything was right and positive ai;lout the speech until we got a look at the book, until the mandarins made the mistake of putting same facts in the back of the book and when we saw the facts there was no doubt. As the photographer said to a~e, "How could you tell? How could you tell whether it is·a sunrise:- r--­ m~can you not tell from looking at it whether it i~.a sunrise- or a 3UJ1Set?

And he very; coyly said,' "Now you-: ne&U· to- · know--- · more about it," And I said, "Like what?" fie said, "Like when the picture was taken." Yes, that ·rs-what you need to know about this budget too, some of the hard, cold facts. And when you read them, just behind that appropriately Tory blue page,it dawns on you, excuse the pun, it dawns on you, it is a sunset document. It is a sunset document. The sun is going down for ~J;- - - · ­ !)evelopment r say to the minister responsible·~ The sun has long since gone down for the member for Stephenville (Mr. Stagg) - MR. NEARY: MR. SIMMONS: MR.

SIMMONS: keep on dreaming. MR. Si'EAl<ER!- (Butt): :o- .· MR. SIMMONS: Keep on dreaming. MR. NEARY: MR. SIMMONS: Oh yes. It is Arctic midnight · over-there-.-­ Gone down for the Liberal Party. Keep on dreaming 'Jimmy' baby, Order,· plea'Se'~ Keep on dreaming. Keep on dreaming. Not a hair out of- pl~-=~: The sun, ~.-speaker,:.~'Slm-sats-fm: ·· · the resource departments i.f we. can judqe from ·the figures in- ·this particular book. And that is one th.incr ! deplore over-this budget, 1239

Auqust 2, 1979 Tape No. 487 NM - 2 MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, is the deception of the budqet because all the people out there heard that day on television were the words o~ the minister's speech, they never had time to scrutinize the real fiqures. That is happening in small comm:i.ttees, which may or may not get reported since there are two or three of them goinq on at the one time, not getting reported very fully. And so if the Minister of Finance, who is a reputable man stands up and says, "We are going .. to put an emphasis on resource development," the public will believe him.

It is only later down the road that they realize ' that what he said was not 1 in fact , the case, that what he said was a contradiction of the case. It is only later down the road they realize that where he said more he meant they should have read less. And that is what I deplore over this budqet, Mr. Speaker, the deception about the government's emphasis on resource development. And second.ly, Mr. Speaker-, about-~­ this budqet, I deplore the deception in terms of the government's relations, or alleged relations with Ottawa.

Now 1 we can have a long discussion about there being kindred spirits now in Ottawa and St . John's but I want to get away from that particular discussion to the overall thelllll' of this. a.dlllin.istl:atiOD:,-and::. tha thema- ·is· thi.s ·, in- ·· the budget, in otber statements by government officials, the theme about less dependence. a:a- you heard that before' , Mr. Speaker? The government is. going_ to:.. ba.-les.s~ dependen.t. • . · .. .The. l'.rovince. _is gai.ng - to be less dependent on Ottawa . Does that not sound familiar ' from a Tory platform? Does that not sound familiar somewhere?

Less dependent on ~tawa, did you hear that" somewhers: -l:!efore?" Lat:-- - us look at the fiqures, Mr. Speaker. Let us see.. how les.s dependent - have become since the. Tories took office seven .years aqo. Let us have a look at it. Let us deal · in fiqures -. -I- know it is embarrassing, Mr. Speaker, for the government to talk about 1240

AuqUst 2, 1979 Tape No. 487 MR. SD!MONS : h.arc! cold facts, because the hard c.old facts usually belle the Aice statements they write in Budqet speeches-. Sometimes, Mr. Speaker, as hard as it is to do, SOIIIetimes you actually got to look at the facts.· And it is a nice s"tatauumt. It is a 1110therhood s"tatement. lie will become less dependent on otta-, but somewhere the records should say sCXIIIJthin.q7 scmewhere they should put their 1110ney where thai.r 1110uth is. Wall, let us have a. look at their lliOJ18y, Mr. Speaker, to see where their- mouth--is .•.

Let us. qat on to. this. theme about . dependence on Ottawa. Let us watch how it has chanqed over the last seven years since th.is proqressive qoven=ent took office. · Let us qo back to the beqi.nni.nq of the IIQ.llenium, qo back to 1972. Do you remember this document? This is an historic document, Mr. Speaker 7 this is Budqet '72. This is the first budqet presented by the ·rory admj .njstration. Do

AU<;USt 2,1979 MR. SIMMONS: Tape No. 488 AH-l you remember who presented it? The hon. John c. Crosbie. MR. MORGAN: !lear, hear! "'P • <;: T!'4W'IIf!; • HP~~, hear: I ~ay. AN HON. MEMBER: A qreat man (Inaudible) MR. SIMMONS: !Ia was a qreat man. !Ia was a qreat man. Mr.Speaker, this docament is historic for two reasons, because it was admittedly the first document by a Tory administration in this Province but , you know, it has now bec0111e of national. historical significance.

Once the people upa.lonq, in ottawa and BC and New Brunswiclc and all these other places up there; once they hear about this document I suppose it will beCCIIII8 a collectors itam, a collectors it!!lll. Because you see, Mr. Speaker, what I hold here i.s the first speech made by John Crosbie as he beo;an the process of fiscally puttinq N-foundlanc! under. Now, Mr. Speaker, all canadians should read this and they will learn his method,ahead of time I hope,about how he has the capability to put Canada under.It should be required readinq, Mr.

Speaker, required readinq for all qovernmental people across this nation because it. demons.trates . clearly where we went wronq fiscally and. how we beqan to 90 wronq under the stewardship of John Crosbie, the man who now holds the purse strinqs for all of canada. The Budqet of 1972. And here are a couple of thinqs that the Budqet of 1972 tell me" First of all it talls me that in 197~-72, the last year of. a Lilleral . c;avermnent in this Province, -ottawa· paid. out to.

New.foundland...S249_mil.l.ion~ __ A quarter of. a- bi:llion. dollar.t . ottawa· paid out . to us. ~ that i.s a lot of. loot and can you not sympathize with an administration that says, "We have to stop that. We have qot to stop this quarter of a billion clollar- dependence- on- ott-a-;" We-l:l;; let us put it in' context. What is a quarter of a 'billion? How IIIUCh of ~.he· Budqet was it in 1972? Our tgtal sources izr 1972- were SQII!eth-:nq- ±n--the order of $590 or $592 million, all sources. Federal qove~~ent, sales tax - then called Social Security Assessment, SSA, you re111ember-

August 2,1979 Tape N'o. 488 AH-2 MR. SIMMONS: gasoline tax, licenses and fees, all sources of revenue, ~592 million. We got ~249 million of that from Ottawa. That works out to about forty-two per cent . ForTY-two per cent of our current and capital requiremen~ in 19'2 came from Ottawa and that was the last of the bad Liberal years, Mr. Speaker, that is when we had so increased the dependence on Ottawa that it was time · for a new government to come in and reverse the trend, do s0111ethinc; about it. We had her up, Mr.Speaker, to forty-two par cent of_ all the 1110ney we neede!i in this .

Prevince. coad.nc; in a handout from Ottawa accordinc; to the Tories , Forty- two per cent, almost half. forty-two par cent. Forty-~~o cants of every dollar. Sh-ful 1accordinc; to the Tories . We have got to reverse that trend. And ilo here is what ha{lllend, Mr. S;M!aker. Give them a year or two, it takes time to do these thinqs. 1971 and 1972 we were gettinc; forty-two per cent frcm Ottawa.

By 1978- 79 - I have some figures, actually, for a year or ewo before that if th& Hou5e is interested, by 1975-76 that forty-two per- cent- -: ­ dependence- on~·. bad;,.gone. ,~ .down • un~- ~o.ries;,but: _ h&a... . qone. up to forty-five per ceDt. NeD~ - are gettinq forty-fi ·ve per cent of our money frOJII. Ottawa. TWo years latez: it had gon• to forty~even per cent. A year later it had gone to forty-nine per cent and this year, .. Mr.

S~eaker, or last year 1978-79 would you believe.. that ..of:. all.:..our:li:Cil&y.- .:_that-.:. 'llle_ nat!d. c to,-.rwt: this · ~.J:Qvin,c;e , fifty point- five per cent, over- ·half the 111oney- was- ccminq · from- · · Ottawa last-- year~ · - Pift:y< ·"point fi~" per - cent up·.· from-_ forty-twa._~ .. Eight and" one..-half points .. up.- frcllr< fo~~ -by- ·a- 9Qvern!N!nt. that: -- wu goinq to decrease our dependence. But then you say, "That was under the former administration. That -s under Franlc Moore's adlllinistration.

That .was unde~-tha· ::-alJ:Iatrosa--.~e.z;~ Tha+-"w&a ::::lder.: o~ . the fellow we are trl' nq. to-.fo~et.~ Why, do yoU;-not. look at: the.:.. · .. . ;_, _ . record now under our 1243

Auquat 2,_ l979 Tape 489 EC- l MR. SIMMONS: new Premier. Well, I w.u.J.. Laat year 1111.da% bad boy, Frank it was up to SO.S ..-r cm1t. This year whan it hu a..n azmo~mcaci ~t they are· going ··to· ciacru.M l:he depelldllnce an Ottaw• it is not SO.S p.r c.1t. No! ThU year the Mbistar of ~CII (Or. J. Colli.na) hopes to get $Sl. 7 mill i-oA f.z:oa Ot.taaa. HaW a th•t for dac:raasinq your dapandanca an Ottawa.? Thi& year ha hopes to get 51.7 per celt. All HOH. MEMBER: (Ina.ud.i:ble) ; Mft. SIMIIJNS: The mniJiter f:am St. John's Eaat {Mr. Hush.

U) asks where - I get that. I qet thill.t on Page 25 of the :SUdqlat, ExiUbit U:t - Current aDci Capi~ Ra'INIJluas, leda%"&1. Gove~nt $664,889 or Sl. 7 per c.1t of total. rewnuas. 'l'hll lllinistar c:.a aak a. queaticn to ~ly that I do not ha.w the facts but in this p~ar c- I have tham rlqb.t in frant of - - Sl. 7 per ~t of cur:ent anci Coilpit&l. re--• for the cominq year aDci this year wldch. we ue iD. now wil.l co- !ma ottaw.,.. Sl~1 per cent aumdecLoff .. to ..

S2 .per cent, co~ .ta-42- .per...cent.. . se-. ye~ ilCJO" vbea. : tlUs. 90~~al:ficcr.; And this gQ'IIW:cm.At ~ WIUltlt "' US to~btll.irlrt:lzat: thay. are.· ~uiAq---~--· ·· on o=-•2- Wb:a.t a daception ·!· ·Wlra.t·an · Ull'CU'ti:E! -- ·-:--- MR. NEARr: It is hypocritical."'- MR. SIMK)NS: It ia l1ypocrl.tical.. It is hypocritical. _ fc=. thL.Minisu:: '" oL finili!.C&,. to. qat.. u;~. aD&L.. tal.1.. .us... in. a.. :S\IIiqat.. sp-ch that... tha.

B.adqa.t:.vi;.U;:-~de,.....S~"Qlt; QH:awa.~~~:;~_;_ - .U.. : to""o~~ - tb.e~~:bzd:ic:at:a:~tha: ·.vexy. ·.ra~;J.a:.ll~q-,c:. · .- . .;_-, : .that. sincc~~72:..·o.w;. ~OE: ftsc•lJy.· on ottawa· lno"" in~ ,·, _ __ :,_· __ percentaqa points fraa 42 pe: cent to 52 pe:: cent of total. ru.nua, tha.t •- in . ~ year when- h&w b.a.d a. ctula.ge - this. ~i~· f.z:oa the bali 'foriu. .to. the . good. . 'ro~ tb&t.. .i.L ;a..goo4..way •• ta.. .. put. it.,. i.L.it nat2. .. HR. IIIEAR!'~ - - • - : MR. SDMJHS s . - it ~Wed. to be s&id about partiu tb&t the only di.tferenaa in it was thilt. one wu in and the other wu out.

Well, IIC'If you can apply it to t1w Tory Party, the Tories that are out of pawar and. the Tories that are in power - -u, · tha Tod.es th.t -re in power lut year that are nov out of power, 1244

Auq\lllt :Z, 1979 T~ 489 EC - :Z the outlawed 'l'ories, the lm-Toried Tories In. Rual.a. aftar you =-it the llltim.ata. llliacm..ADaw: they ~ you, yoia bac:alia aa. Ull-parson. w~. ~~ is wtl&t !. MAll wt1aA L say tiw·- un-Toried Tories·; you know, Frank ~res' un-Tor.ied Tories, the bad Tories, coupons yet, I wonder? Ma.. SI.MM:lNS• Did he give them back their (inaudible) The un-TOried Tories w~ qe.ttin~ . SO per cent of all thai: fUDCis ta ran t:ha qo-rnman.t t=a Ott.a. · 'l!. s~tul. thiDq! • sa.ici the Tory 'l'or:i.aa, the iD-Tor.i..es, the good. Tori.es.

So wna~. do they do? '121ay go mel sq, 'Yea, - will talc• the SO per cea.t auci - will. e-. oa ·=upla man perceDCAqe points too. We will. iD=-ua tha depelldaDce.' But, DJ:. Co.ll.J.Da, but,--.r tor St:. J'obD's South• bu~. MiDUter of P.i.Aauce, do DOt tal.l the pllbllc: t:h&e,... tall. t:11a. . tba appaa:ita.. _ Tell ~ iD your Budqat speec:ll, 'We ara dac:::a&ainq the dependance,' btacauae they will buy that, beca~me you b.ave au honest fac:a. They will. bel.ie'INt you. lrihAt hypoc:r:i.sy!_, .. AncLtha.t. ia..wll&t...I...Aepl.Qn... i..D. tbi • Jwige:t...,_~~-j:ba_ .P!t«J2l• of Navf~Q...

UL.ba.i.DqA.aca.1.1111~~tha4..PQ.i.I¢L.:....on....~---. ··-. ·~- · ·- cutt.i.Dq back iD .. t:ha ~u:ca.. ~.ml~~s. deception iD ;:aspect ta dependaDc:a on Ottawa .men they say the de~ca ia. leu and. I th.inlc t. ~- cl.aa.dy. d.ellaaaU&tad.. ~- t:hiL dependenca. ia IIICIJ:Il. ADd I have: qlmtacl· chap~ ~~L-ha.-.. ~ f1 cp•rea· f=m:.-..tha;_l;lwi;e.Q. =llC8omecl , ta · - ·' -- - .- sbow~deJiM"'dep,..-h••·~~pe::: cea.t...l)£.CAPi.~ . aud::.~ . - . , ra'INtD--tao-~~CIIIl1:::·~~ - ~~ffice ... AD.ci •. siD'*- thiA.... - -·· quui-chaaga iD adlli.DUU&ti.on, t:hi.a chaaqa frQJ~,. . tba.bali.

Tor:i...,_ta .tha-. gaoc1 Tor:i.aa.,. - thua.haa...a.ftll bMG..aa....illc::a ... _thua, t.roa l.~t y .. r _to t.ta;.a _ yea.r ,_ ~..s.Q .s.:.pa: : CIIZI.t o:f:rllftllue:;;~..l:..p~,~t.. f?'R:: s.4e:pu. ~. o£. ~-- ~.--· . llliDiatar ,.--hoaeat · lllilll~ '·· -- af . .-:iDtaqnty, ·• th&11>--.-h~ ~w.i.l;;k,; r~~ ·-.­ ~t QI)Jltradi,c:ticm l:letwaen- __ , ~'"--"--- . - 1245

. '-:: . ..:.~. ,.. :; August 2, 1979 Tape 490 PK - 1 Mr. Simmons: his statement and the fact which he proffers to sUppOrt his statement, but which contradicted the statement. I hope he .. wUl :o;ma.~ :econci!c ~::.s · :obame!".ll.- c=t:a.~ctio:l wher.- he rises to speak at same point in this particular debate. Now, Mr. Speaker, I have said a couple of thinqs I deplore in this Budqet. There are one or two others.

I think I implied in Question Period that I cannot see the rationale for the tax on media advertisinq. that the <;QVernment will collect some dollars on it_, but, I think, it will have the net effect of reducinq the would-be advertisers advertisinq budqet by the amount of the tax. That has an effect on local radio stations - I know the minister said the other day that it is not qoinq to hurt the locals, it is the national people. aut do not forget that it is the national advertisers .. who supply . a l.arqe .. part_of. the revenue for the : local stations and the local papers here.

And ifOU cannot ilffec:t the national advertisers adversely .w.ithau't....havin~. = -- ~~ ~ - - - . a domino effect, . without . having an effect,_ ._ an. advarse, . eff.ect.~n .the.. __ ··-·· local media. Olltlets.,. ftu:. ex.ampla-. . .. ::· -- I believe i 1::-· is:. a···-co~mter-pmd'DC:t:i:w .... ~ r.' thiJlk~ --c ··,..,_ ~ ... -··· it was very ill-advised. :t. think the m.inister . demcnstl:ated -~- in. ___ _ answerinq questions that he is -not very sure he is doinq the riqht thinq.

A.a. a. matter of. fact, :t..qat the.. impl:&ss.icn f:r-am.his s.tatelilent.s _today : .tha~ they made , the- decision and now they. ara>-qo.i.nq...to, listen..t~ advice . . - ~· -· - · ­ --a.ft&D:- c · -Wel,J,,:thaf:,.. is:. =poor . .time.~. to: J i sten- tD! adv;ice;._ - -.I. _am,. not ... · - ~qqastinq.c-that · averr · time.-'thay · contempia.te -· a·•taz..,.Ch~ qi.ve,- notica--1>0 , the people wh.o-· do- not want the ta&, but Lwould. hcpe. tha.t _ the-y did a .. fairly intell.iqent.. aruL..wide~d...s.auudinq_ ~muLto .see._ what. the _economic: impact of sac!r-a taz:::wallld..:lB-- .-::..:.:.']j]e:a is- on.l.y,--:Ona· othel:::· .p:roJI'ince. c izt.,-~ " :.~-: · ·. . . . canada and. .. that is.

Quebec, . or ona:..other jurisdid:ion. · .in::.N.orth Allier~~ .. I am told,wtr.ich levi~~ taz:: .on · adver:t:ising; and::~that · i:s-Quebe<:, ·and ' ... I think that...i..s..only~ on. an aspect · af th•utedia,~-r-·- th.Ulk,. broadcast - ~ - ~ ­ revenues only. 1246

Auquat 2, l979 Tape 490 MR. WHITE: Radio sales. MR. SIMHJNS: Radio revenua.,. aDd tha.J:ata. is 2 per_ cent rather tDaD. 4 per cent. ife are t.ald:nq a fa.iJ:J.y basic: ciep~ue r:rca - tha utal:lllshed tax poli.c:ias of other jllrisdi~ in c~ and. the United sue.., md. I would like to beAr t11a llliniatar say._, __ mn thinqs about it. But for the ~ beinq I fiD.d the tal£ on udU. advertisinq oa~mtar-p~ve. L tbJ.nk, it will-be •.. . :t.predi.c:t. it wil.l..})e. ___ x_ t:hiDk. it. ia vary Ul-adv1aed me!

I would hope tha llliniatar would,- rec:oaaiclar -- - -- - -­ before ba qaea. too fa: with it aaci btinqs in tha Tax Sil.J._ conca:auad. Now, Mr. Speaker, there is so-tll.inq elsa that I daplara ~-lit the Buciqat. 'rhere is qldta a talk about ~atudiu in tba Blld.~t. 'they are qoinq to stuc:ly •-rythinq in Education aqain, they ua goinq to stw!y' evezyth;inq in Health aq.&in-, they &m goi.nq to st'Wiy ewrythinq in F:Lahar.l.u aqain. Now, Mr. Spealtar, I ha,._ uotbi.ncJ;--~:. : : .· :. _­ aqaiDat studies. But you s- it is the ccmtraciic:tioll in ear- aqai.n.

This go-~t wu elected oa l.- ~~at· .qoi.mJ-'-fO~-=t-d.nta~;tb.e=l9.80s;-:~;c: .... : .·'<o·:o, -­ · aad:!-~~h-.~~~~ ggj:n~abaaa:i,>..thay-~~ t:imF: - ~-.-,_ . ,.- • ~U3.,_re, .• they Jm.w-=--tD; ·put .. b.ac!--i=:4onr~"taa:q8fL~~~- .... -!,- •• • :,.......- ~ But now, Mr. · Speaker: -- MR. S'rAGG• Ma. SDIMCIIS.. Nor Mr. Speaker, - aver in Stephanv.Lll.a, qiwe• ~:tb.M:~~ ~ m~aya,-ll&aa- n. ~- y4K,-~J.A. ~ vq:s.. tblm:-. -~. ::::: ~- :.-: .. __ ha ~.. -'-'l'h&t:- i:a- ~-of a coa.Dt on-lti:at 1:ball'- lla'r- ···--- --·- .... --~ - - - MR. STAGG: - n;-· SDIK)NS" :-- __ : :, •• oau~tua.ts. MR.

SPUIZRl- (S~I MR.- SIMMllfs:s:' -_:_~ _ ._'-:;_~ :.o :, (Inall!W3lal-- - ~- - - ..:- -· We lcDov, ..,..,..-tu, .a--IWIIIbe:.: a~ ya:a:--~- ~~ ~-= -~-: - -- a~. plau•}-- ·· - -· .. Mr. Spealutr,:.r..:~-~ -pl•uant:F-:-=:-~.z::_-,-· . . it. wu vG.Ir;.'tll• -..-..,: ,_w..._. · ""c:k;.;-w-.s~.-.-pra'Cti.ciag;..-l:&w; "' : : ~r-· ~ --~-.. -.. :· wi.ll a.gzea·-.:tt.h ~~ Qil tb.ia,_-tbac-·.t: -started o~ttDdlly>- to · 0...-¥8EY - ni.ca.- · ~:..- .,., - -­ kind m4 -rr· poait1-. I .. . beinq . 'uadW.y h&ruseci, .t_t.hink, by tht:- mamber for Stepbe.nv1ll• (Mr. SQ.qql md I wUl t:y to ignore him 1247

Auquse 2, 1979 Tape 490 IB-3 as difficult as that is. Mr. Speaker. the. ~a ~ .Newfoumland were given the clear impr!lssion prior to Jane 18th that they were electinq a gcveaaent which bad a san- of direction, which la1ew where it wanteci to take thiS PrO'II'ince. we are told by the Minister of Fi.Jlanc:e (Or. Collins) now that such is not the case, that it is a hold-the-line, that it is a wait-aDd-see, it is a !:nzyinq-tima budqet whil.e they study sc:me lll)re. Well, Mr. Speaker, no llUlllber of studl.es: will prove thllt you do not need a hospital on the Bari;n ~.

No nlllllber of studies will prove that you da not need an el¢eusion to the Gran4 Falls Hospital which affects a lNIIIber of people in rrq dl.stri.ct. No n'lllllber of stud:l.es will prove that you da not need a l'ospital. in Claranvllle or I?Ort aux Basques, no number of studi.es. Or is the qovertlment . ;·· ~· - 1248

Auqust 2, 1979 Tape No. 491 GH-1 MR. SIMMONS: government now telling us that when they put up the billboards before the '75 election, they were wrong, .. or that they were out deliberately conning some people. No number of studies, Mr. Speaker, will tell you that the kinds of school facilities that exist around . this P.rovince. the . .fire traps in many communities, are adequate. No number of studies will prove that. ! deplore, Mr. Speaker, the deception in this. . Budget.,._ the... false hopes it ra;i.ses a.bout education and a.bout health". - ~.

Speaker, r - have-- spent some time talking about . wbat I like a.bout . this . audget and some time talking about what I dislike in the Budget. There are more things I dislike that I could talk about, but I want to emphasize the three or four I have mentioned. The one that I want to underline is the overall deception about resource development and about the government's financial relationshi-p - to- ottawa, and then I have. come, . . Mr. Speaker, to a couple of specific points that I dislike.

Before moving on to· what- will be- my- fina:l:• one- or · -twa-points-, .. ·I' want to -:-.~--:-~·., ..,."" ··· address :.mysel:f- .. t:a .: the-~. ~if±c:': pai.n1;._ .. wb.±.c:.h ~is.. not. .pac:tic:ularly "'· ., ._ , :: therefore, bears ment:ioning:....ri:ght. her~.n.aw-.Jt is: _a_very_pa~ticular, :. point and a point which affects a number of ind;i.vidual·!fewfoumilanciars.: -=-- --- ··: and I am hoping I can get. the attention. of. the..M:inister of Finance would hope- he·'t'Ol%:l.d· - -r--waso· j ust- ·-saYingo- -I hope- ·I can" · just-qat th&-·· ear- of. th~ Milristar-af.

Finance . for: anuoment on this-particular - item. :· . . ' It is an--i'teiL partly-of4- ~on!ll!lti'OI!'S"-:tt'CWoul<i• seem- .•.l:±ke-c--Slllltil --item.;.- ~t it is an item that affects a number of people. It has always receivab.las- q:i.ven.. tiJ!Ia: _- - ~ ·de ·-nat. argue-:- tba t.¢:u:en. ~, ·appropriate- ··-:. ·-,= .- receivable is owing government and the person that owes does not pay up, then you have to take the appropriate legal steps to get it. 1249

.- -· August 2, 1979 Tape No. 491 GH-2 MR.

SIMMONS: What I always found a bit of a contra­ diction in terms was while the government"wil~ only allow the fellow who owes government money a month or so to pay up, he expects the same fellow to allow the government six months to pay up, and I can give the minister a list as long as his arms, mine and feet and all to show people who, for instance, have - and I am ~alking about small people ..mo need the · 30 bucks or the · 100 bucks · or ·the- ·200-- bucks · involve& -.----­ I can give him a list as lonq as your arm where it takas five months for a fallow to get SJO for a cha.insaw .rental ., .for example..: , MR.

NEARY: (Inaudible l MR. SIMMONS: Right. Or where a fellow is cutting wood for Department of Transportation and Communications, I say to the minister responsible, and I can give the minister - show him bills now- $3,500, $3,500, some of them as much as five and a half months old.

One individual trying to make a living in a small sawmill operation where he is cutting -spec±alty it~ .. for Transportatioft---·- and Commun:i;c:ations~ arid;..he>· has.:..wa:i:ted,_f.i.ve., months-. fi.ve: liiOnths;- _ to. gat:;, ~ ·---'. , ,. his receivable· on thae. from· the-.pubiic::-treasurr.- --!JOW7_that ltind~.of...:.-:-.- . ::=-.:. -- - person, and: we are. talkin~ a..bout. .=.eati.no;._joba...cr: :hdping". tounake:. ,· -·-- -..:.._ ___ .. small industry healthy in this Province, that kind of an individual, a · · · one-man · ope:atioa~ does..not. bav~ tba..t....kind of...cash flow. _ fie iust -~o~.r.

Speaker, :r: say: to tha Minister-of Finance there · are hundreds of ·people in those- two categories' r hav~ mentioned ·who are- working·, say, ow a forestry;. pz:o'jece or-~ scu:i:a::l:- seJ:Vices project: and; · they: rent· ::-: · .their cba.insaw or their equj.pment or their vehicle, and then there are the small suppliers to government who are being owed, you know, misc:eUaneoils; SUIIis;: a£- money · .i:te·tez:ms-: of . tot-a:l :·gcvernlliSI'l-t. re..venu!t7r: :o1:"',· : ~J - but· sullis "iiig:e ;·emjugh ta·.Put~fell-ow- int.a.::·l:linlcruptcy .. _v..i._e_wed-. fro~ o _._ · the vantaqe- poine- of- tft8' --persorr 'ccn1Cerned.-' '-! -wi:H: not- dwti.l·on- tha.e-- · - -- - - in terms or ·taking- tima--or-not, -but- I-·see- ·from- ·the-!llimster-' -s · indie4ti-on---- - -­ that he obviously has the point and it is a point that I have talked at some length with various of his officials about, and sometimes 1250

Auqust 2, 1979 Tape 4512 IB-1 MR. SIMMONS: the problem is not in his department as such but down in the supplying depart::lllent or the deparbnent that has supplied or 7 in this case,received the services. But wherever it is it is a point that affects a number of hundreds of people. Now, Mr. Speaker - OR. COLLINS: Would the hen. member permit me? MR. SIMMONS: Sure. DR. COLLINS: The hen. member, Mr. Speaker, has brought up a point o:f considerable importance I think. I think there is no doubt about it tha-t in the past government was slow in paying its bills.

However, there are two measures underway• Firstly, one of the problems was that our acc;:oWlts were not computerized and accounts now are of such a size that it is difficult to keep track of them unless they are computerized. There is a project underway now which will see this remedied as quickly as possil:lle . The second thing that we have done - and this is a new departure - is that qavernment will now undertake to pay interest on the outstand.inq accounts a.fter sixty days. This is now in effect and this will afford some relief 1 especially to the small suppliers to government. MR.

S:IMMONS: Well, I am g~ad to hear ' it is iA effect and I thank tha minister for his response. I would suqqest it has not been lonq in effect. I talked to an individual on Monday of this week who is. owed about $3,500. My ~lleaque fraa , 'rOrnqa.e- (Mr. Warren) hacL a ­ s:illlillar example · as recently: as; yesterday. · But the point has been reqirtered aJid··r du not think we- oaql:rt to debate "i.t in -my­ detail hera a:ad I hope the miniatar will pursue it further and report to us in time. Mr.

Speaker, I want to come to another point or two before cluinq up. ·I had a look at food prices in the last few years and I found, Mr • . Speaker-; that =in- the . last few years there · has been a dramatic increase in food prices, not surprisinq to anybody here but I want to relate it to another point in a minute. I found that since the new government took over 125l.

------- ----- Auqust 2, 1979 Tape 492 IB-2 MR. SD!MONS: in l972,the price of food, the consumer price index has risen by 7'7 ~r c'en-4: in seven yee.~s. T!l.e conSU!!Ier price - illdex has risen by. 11 per cent in seven years, that means that in 1972 7 if you bought a dollar 1 s worth of groc:eries, you are paying now S 1-. 77 for the same groceries. One dollar in 1972 and Sl. 77 now today. So you say, well wbat is he on this particularly IIIWldane point for?

Well, I want to impress that u~ your ~d because I want to make a comparison with another rise, a rise that . we do not often look at, another rise in cost over the past seven years since this government took office. The one I ~ talking about first, the consumer price indez, is !lOt one that you can completely lay at the feet of this government.

There are other factors over which !:his government has no control when we talk about food prices going from a dollar to Sl. 77, when we talk about the person who paid out $100 for a grocery bill in l972.and he pays Sl'Z7 ~. for , the_sama __ groceries , nClll . . i.n...l9;79.-- ~­ s~ of the rea&ens_that.___has. gone._ f:r::am. SlOil to_ $177. are completely _ .. outside ths control of this, particular ga~ent •. ------ - · - But let us look at some.thinq . e~--- · -- -"- .. . .. Mr. Speaker.

Let us look at how taxes ha.ve inc::eas.ed. since 1972 and cc:mpare it with food prices because now we are talking about something that is within the controL of _ this _ gove:rmnant~ What- has happened- to taxes sinc::e-1:972? · Wall, food haa- gone ·. up.-l;ly __ 17 -pe:c. cent, almost .. - . doubled. lfav.e:. taxes -doubled. since- ~~3-12 would Y-OU. say? . . Ha.ve- -they .- -- gone- -.up by- -77· per.- cent? Perhaps- SO · pm!· _cent?. Perhaps .. 60 per cent?. Let us look at the figures. In .l97-2, the year that. this government .. . took over, this administration, the-..

Province collected from about soo, aoo Newfoundl.anders , __ excl.~ thosa~ wha.>.- were~ not- . on- -iDCOIII8', , · -- t.lie children and so on- but:. in _ terms ·. of popttl.ation ,_ t;he.o Province ·-. · received, the · Public Treasury.. reeeiYad- in· persosml: .inc:ome-,.tax- ~ - · S28 million in 1971-1972 according to John C~ crosbie. In.1912 1 the. man who will now do for canadian finances what he did for Ne.wfound~ finances - I did not hear too many 'Amens 1 that time, . 1252

August 2, 1979 Tape 492 IB-3 MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker- the man who will do for Canadian fillances what he did for Newfoundland finances, ~~e man who will put her under nationally like he did provincially .-·- 1253

·- A~a9UBt 2, 1979 Tape 493 EC • l MR. NE~: He will be hated in six 1110nths i.n Ottawa. MR. SXMKJNS: He is looldn.q ova:r: his sboulder Ul:eady and tba six 1110nt11a. are not up yet. As a matter of fact• if Ius· can keep Sinr: samm. undar cont:ol for tllrtla 11101:1.t.hs he will be a luc:ky UD. Tba savinq c;rac:a for the people of CaDAd4 is thAt under thee federal sya~ t:!M U.titution of Tre.uuzy Boarcl is quite well esta.bu..bed, and While the Minister of Finance in Ottawa III&Y daci.da th&~ -tllinq is 90inq. to be dona, it is. Tre.uw:y SO.J:d.- that makes. -tba. ~ dac::i.sion...eonc:exn.inq Ilia dar:iaion..

He· llliqbt. re=-nci. ~-.SO-tllinCJ . .ia..c;ain; to o-~-- --· h.e, the Minister of Pi.D.aDc:a, but it is ha, Sinr:lair Stavens, the President of Treuuey Boarcl, wba lllakas the final decision. Now, the finmc:ial mark_et llliqbt not find that particularly sobarinq - they may find. it vary sobarinq, they miqbt not find it vary helpful, but t wauld say, Hr. Speaker, that the peop~a of Cauda hav. reuoll to thaDlc. their ~ th&t~thL. fi.naL dac:ia.imL is Sine's, not Jobn's. Mr. Spaakaz:o; Johao~(;.-:.CmaO~:tg~~.:!:.:...;,;: 4.•'"'""-- _,;-.• :.: .; • 1972 · - thiada · Jobad: .. ~~12;:pu:..b•r · .

UDdmt;,aua.;.~~ .. inr.a72.!1&. : ... .;.::_._;,. -.... .. .- __ .. told \IS- ~bat-~ 1:D1<1:0Hact::-$-~~-i-n,. . hXc,pnci-,~d.-- =''·;. _;: . Mil. NEAR!: Mil. SI!QIJHS: . It is killd of an_ uzu»J:takar. .' s Bue{qat, - -· __ .... - ..

IMIIba·J:I' ~' J'ob!L~ti--Scnatlr;4:he .. p:c-Ul:1 MiAi~ oio; !'tmmca=·tc:;; , .-.I:, CoJ.·J j-nst; : ·• c-:::- - ~-. b:F-~~l=.t8:1ilz>-~~~wa-. ph.,.,;c:aLl""--.:;..'~ " -....­ p:caaent wh.aJI 'flfl£'l.ittla fallar~. -~&...-b&l..f;:_y_-.r al.lt~ _wu:.:_ dal:iftZ:ed ::- _ _: :-. - I IIIU8t say., h• is~lllllc:lr-better. dall'ftrinq:::~~,ia,;_~i:ao.; a.,...,,= , . -..-: ,_. a P, !_~~ ~ daa-"nCJ:.b~-·t:llull.a~--~1!1'-- pll1::'.J.~-)illl~thaJ;;:)I._ .• -,;:;:..'i.;,·., ••-~_,! ,_.._ I bcpe my ~, ~~ caA<c,in, ao .way .be:-=-c:t8d0 ~u.a~tJU...,.,_ _., _,... _•=-"'-- ·.: paxtic:ulAr ·BQdqet.. . ·!fet-·cJ..i·ki.lld..,of • ~---» ti.l.l.-Da.t.

S&y-....i.t..:. ,. ~J. th.i:J& ,. -· - --· -~- :t have lllilltads tne::.~~cm<.arb&s ~~, .- ••. speaker· :.-.""~-=- .. _ '· "· MR.. NEARY': MR.. SDIIJNS: AN HOM. MEMBER; !u, that i.s riCJh,t. I thiDk I will. get back to BUd98ts. {IIlaudil)l.e) • 1254

Auquat 2, 1979 MR. SIMMONS: ' SOME BON. MEMBERS i MR. SIM!IJNS: Tape 493 EC- 2 How co- I c;et iLLl those ideas D.OW Oh, oh! We sbau.Ld. bald. our C&UC\1MS up hera. In 1972, Crosbi.e te.l.U ws. $2S.IIIi.ll.ion in.~~ tax off the backs of the Newfo~d. people. In 1979, ~ praaent MiDis~ of .FiJluc:e _ Ulr- ~-Coll.insl- . tal.l.L..us..he-.axpec::s. .. to ---- _ collec:t not $28. lllil.li'on off tha s-- h&U mi 11 jon popu.La.tiOD.-but- $l52-•i 1 1 ion, an iA=-ue, Mr.

Speaker, of 443 pa:c cent,. wh:U.a. . !cOd.-~ .... wbl.dL-­ e,.~ u awful.l.y worked. up about, CJQ up 77 par cent, wbila wa an payi.Aq $177 naw for what - bauqtlt for $100 iA 1972, panon&l. iAc:o- t&x is qoiAq up f%011l-- $28. !!!il1ioa to::-$1S2 · mj]}ion.:.-.CJQ1A.9:-vp-b¥=-443 -pa:-~ --- - - .. And- an suppoaecl to taka. that OD- the. chiA bacaus..our.l:laaevolant... ... at tha daor o:f t:hia. qo-=-t-..-a-40~ caAt-i.D.crll...._i.A..pc:aon•l in,.,_ -- -- ... . tu.

Now7 tha- ~-az:u=~q:~~Gid!'!~ba.~-~Cl.L.=''·.:_.--.. ._-.c:: · sq. it-fo:o..tbaa.-!Cir-,..butw;;b~G;;,~..f~-tb&t:o. '.--=. ,Y...,.'"' tha~.ara__, I.; wU.l. - , ., . ,, - ,. . telJ. .you wb&t:-thaY,~'Dlc-..a::.t·J:eaPmP ., .ttl.c.:~·9'9DI!Q4-QDIIFWWGD.tCt~lial-•..,.,..,..~-·"_..-'-'_._.-"'· · ··-··~­ iA.c:a&aad •'ftXY"'t&X si.ace- U72-;··-- AN: BCli. MEMBER::- -:--::::.::.:~.. ~. : _ __:_, MR. SDOIJMS: ·-·-· ~li.n·f - ~~-~m.~dAII1Iillai"Ce>p'D'::Cjmmw,-~~,..--""--c:.=:· : · wi.-tllou~tm-CRF~ 11 UUF~-~~~r.~- - · ·-~ · ---· . 1255

.- _-.--,If·--·. ; ~ - -·· Auqust 2, 1979 Tape No. 494 GH-1 MR. SIMMONS: it says, "'Hell, we got the !!lOney, we might as well hire a few more people", and t.'lat, Mr. Speaker, is- the issue, the issue of increi!lsed tax burden over the past seven years. I have picked seven because this is the life of this administration. I could easily have picked another time frame, and it is not happening only in this jurisdiction, but that does not make it right in this jUrisdiction. E'ood prices -· 77 p~--cent increase-t· tax -rates, tax - burden - 300-440 per cent; that is the issue, Mr. Speaker; that is- the issue.

The tax burden in this !?rovince has become intolerable, absolutely intolerable and the fault for that !DUSt be placed at the feet of this particular administration, because this particular - administration committed bolo· sins on this-matter, ·one a sin of· commission, and two a sin of omission.

The sin of commission was in continu.illg to- sock ·it to thl!lll;· ·i=ea:se- the- retril·salesr"tale',- · ~theo-· --~ personal income tax, that was a sin.- of! cOIIIIIlission·.~:-- The.-~si.n of· ---:- -"' -. omission, the ·thing it--di:d··not do, --was--it did · not:-·recoqnl::ze- · a-e~- - ----.. • - ~ lea~t· ~lic:l.y·. that' it·. wa-s..: r .ec:ei.v;i.nc;.. wincif.all. .pr.ofi.t&. tiu:!ougtJ.,...taxa~ .• ,.,-. ... . · -·• · beeause a£'-' .inflation, becosuse · of· increased pr±cea; ~-am:t•:incz::eased ·· ·--- · - · ·-- - ~~- - per capita· ·income-, an~ did . .not:::-plouqbc-· those:. wi:ndfa:ll: profits,-. ba.ck."tor.tha· consUIII8r .

And that is what the =nsumer needs-;- .. then- ·hlt' can· afford · his 77 R,er.. .cent in=easa. . i;L consUIIIer p,ric.es .•. . if. we- .started giving ..- '"'·-:--. theta,-bacle""'soma. . ~ the . ta.lcas. he-_, sho\li.d haVI!" becausa:· of: -t:b±s- wUnii.fa;l;l;- .... · --·profits- factor that'·:t· ·have· mentioned.- -- · --- . - Mi.

Speaker, I be-l.ieve the- new-- -Minister or: Pinance · :1Dr;. ·J:; ·Collins )··nas-. t:g, take. a lo~,:.- hard · look- - ' ··"" .at the effect of the risinq burdlm-o£· taxation ·; the effect --it:- ·is ·-­ having on the average consumer's p-urchasing- · power ·; t:ne· average-con-- - - · sumer' a. and."'bcclleowner" s · ab±li ty-:'1:a:-meet..budgets-r= t=malte:.-f.inanci-a:l ·. · · · --=-'" plans within..·the fami.ly . c.ontex.t- I:.:ft;nd- it, Mr• · ·Speaker; absolutely shameful . tha:l:: . such windfall: profits .:should.::haYe.: been:- made, .::and..I....:.:::- · -- find it sOiilewhat ccuri.ous::::that-.:i'b-shoa:ld-·be: made: .wit:holrt.-any_. pa:z;t::icular;~-~- ·.- • ~ 1256-

August 2, 1979 Tape ~o. 494 GH-2 MR. SIMMONS: public outcry. Yet, while I say I find it curious, there is a context in which I do ·not, becaus .e t:he process of taxation, the way it is taken from the consumer, is in bits and pieces. You go down today and yow: tax is . seven per cen~. so if you buy a dollar item you pay seven cents, and two or three years later you go down and it is ll per cent, so instead of paying Sl.07 for the dollar item, you pay Sl.ll.

It only sounds · like four cents and four cents does not sound like .much until it . i~ all added up;.· ,,. - - in terms of a budget receivable, in term~ of revenue for - a-government ~- ·you find that that four cents or whatever translates into percentages of the order of 300 per cent inCreases over th~ seven years, - MR. MORGAN:· Are you all finished? MR. SD4MONS: I was just giving the crowd over there a chance. 'rhere ·are so basy-tal.k:i.ngo,- I ·thought they .•.r.snted to do.::i.t . without ary interruption. - .Now, Mr. Speaker; · that r- •have- · their- ~ -- - attention· -::::: MR. NEARY: - East (Ms.

Verge) for a seating pa.J:.tner .,_ you.. wouJ.d_ be .. ta.lkiD.g- .tOD.---- . MR. SIMMONS: I do not know·, I t.h..ink.-! '~ould. listen, :_ ~ t _think I woul.d just. Usten... . -:-- .,-·- . -- MR. NEARY.: - - ·-. Valley (Mr'. : W; aouse) • - We-are· all jeal.ous . of-: him·; .· MR. SIMMONS~ . : r only saw tliiL that happy· on'Ce- before..--:-:-'- --.. the hon.

Minister of·-Educat:ion (Ms:.:- VeJ:qe) - has=co~~~e. back. inUl- the._, __ Chamber-, early in illY c0111111e11ts ozr the- Budget· debate: r· mentioned' that' -· · '•!omen iSSWI'•:: - I. did it ve.ry . hriefly-:arui.:I.~think . my .colleaqus,_ the:-.·:- - use the occasion, perhaps in the Budget debate or elsewhere, to give us the benefit of her views and her knowledge on it.

August 2, l979 Tape No. 495 so - l MR. R. SIMMONS : I knew it is considerable and. she and I have t.alkeci about it an a numbel: of occasions. MR. S. &EARY: Oh, wa thouq.ht she was a ~&l. whan we w~U:e down arowxi the table there. MR. WHITE: MR. R. SL:o!MONS: is a Liberal. t-m. s. NEARY: She .is a Liberal. She is a ~al. Of cow:sa, she The memt:er for St. John's Centre (~. t'.J. McNicholas) has no authorit:y, he is a Liberal, coo. t1R. R. SL~CNS: where she is put MR. STAGG: liR. WHITE: MR. NEARX: yourself. 1111.. SIMMONS: Mr. SpaiUcar. MR. STAGG: Of course, sha is a Liberal. r.ook Mr.

Speilk~U:, ! suqc;est (Inaudible) • Sit down, boy, sit down, Sit dawn, do not ba maiti.nc; a fool of Is the IIU!m.ber on a · point · o~ order; - - Yes. MR. SIMMONS: I will certainly hear his point of order hcwavar -riciiclfJ..ous-c, Mr; · Spe4Jcer. I certa.i.nly- ··will,- i.f h-....·has-­ a pout of order~ MR. STAGG: on a pout . of. order, Mr •.

Spea.Jo:.er. a.is · the helD• mlllllbel: yie-ldeci2 ·The non. lll8lllber caunct. stand i n lUs. -.- plil.ca and say notllimJ and. :-expac:t; othm: . hon- mlllllb4u:s... act.. .. tc:.a.sk.i.oz:::... .-. - .:_· _ ___ . .:.__ tbe floor. so, if the hl:ln. memear is goinq to speak ·, wall by all means, · wa will hear , him. 1111.. s . NEAa::! : ·· Mr~ Speaker, Yow: l:longu;: ha&:.:ta r:lti.a on a point: of· order- alld it ·is just. ·a· IDAttar- of- ·fo:cma:l.i.ty-~·weo ,, ... ~··. --o, -· have to ·c;et it off the record:.

Thara:--is ~J:7,po.int' cr£ ~ --'l'h•· --- . -­ - -"~o.ti: -gentlemAD, obviously, · Sir, the hot wea.ther ·outside-'is- getting to· h.iJn. If he does not lllca it, he can always qet aboard Newfoundland's 125S

Auqu:ot 2, 1979 Tapa No. 495 so - 2 MR. S. NEARY: ;inast a.nci just head ne.r back to the - West coast. MR. SPEAKER: (Butt) Order, please! On tha poin~ of order. This is merely a. differ~ca of opinion between b«l hon. IIIEUIIbers, please continue. MR. R. SIMMONS : Mr. Speaker, certainly it is that in parliamentary te.rms, it is that a.nci it is more than thilt b11t in tuma of substance it is m:uc:h more than that. It is an ins!Ut, mt only to me but to the mi!II!Cer for !iumber West (Mr. R.

Baird.) • As a. matter of fact, wb.i.le the member maycnc~..ha.VIt' been... listeninq, wba.t I was doinq when ha says I was doinq nothi.cq, I was inviti.Dq his colleaque to address the assemely at some point on a Verf important subject. Now, he may thinq that is nonsense b11t I happen to think it is not nonsensr. ·I wcqld like-to·hear -· whAt the lad.y from liumber West ~s to say a.boqt the sta=s-of - -­ '«llllen iUid if he does not like it - MR. BAil!D: '·'" From liumber- E:ast·. -.... ~ -:, ·:· .. · MR. R. SIMKlNS': - frcm Humber· East, the member· fr~ -c- liUIIIber West ·(Mr. R.

Bai.rd.l is nc· lady• SOH! liON. MEMBERS : MR. -SPEAICBRt= ~Bu-tt)-. MR~ S • NEXB.r: - ·---- -~~ ST!m.ING: Oh, oh! -o:r~. pleasaL ... c=~···~- -- fie- wal.lcaci-· inta that ona.-· .... - - •-- -·-.-:· : The member.-for·!iumber-·West o does know --a lot abou..t. .the. stat\ls.: of: women;. · 1-IR. R. SUlMON&: : =---: : -·- · · , . .r·wauld--l.ik&;)to; h&ve:.,hiai:..vi.&.1111S;as ~""'.U..."'"'~:-"-' ·'--..:. Now, Mr.

Spealca:r, without pw:sW.nq tnll point, I woul.d bcpe t.'lat a.a non-sensical a.s it sounds to the lllind from Stephenville, I want to hear SOllie- d.ialoqu• on. it- a.mi-tbt.lad¥- .fl:cat:...H~East . -{Ms·. --E.- Verg-e):- -~·-"·• ··-- -- . ---: has been so..qood. to indicate tbat she=miqht· do- that in-time. I was referring,; .i;n, particular:,- ta· ,liea4: :309:,;.-.;t:he-. :e.r~-::Ad.Y.i.so~ -.. :__~ -~-~~ -.- . .-·- · - counc:ll on ' t:lle:- ·status of-WQIIIen..-...= ..::-.·'- =·=, MR. S. ~: speech. I cannot wait for her to make her main 1259 --

Auqust 2, l979 Tape No. 495 SD - 3 HR. R. SIMMJNS: She will, she will. Now, Mr. Speaker,- I do not kJlgw what I do to this House.but everyt;ime I get up it seems there are about twenty guys t:alkinq at one time. CiQwever, the girls in Hansard can not blame me. They will have to bloima the fallows who are lcicJcinq up the fuss. Now, Mr • Speaker, I am t:ryinq so hard to clue tb.is us within an hour , but I ha.va run just over an hour but t am just abcut throw;h and then I will be sittinq down. And ::: 'WOuld hope MR. J • :«>RGAN: That is gcod news to hear. MR. R.

SIMMONS: It is better news for lll8 then it is for the member fran Bonavista south (l1r. J. 1·1orgar.l • !~ow, Mr. Spealcar MR. S. NEA!n': He is not allowed to speak this session. He has not spoken yet. ~11!.. a. SIMMONS: - t:hat,more than any ot.'ler issue about this Bud.qet that needs tg be talkecl <Wout is its deception. It is a very dec:eivinq doCUIIlant. The doCUIIlent: says-- !:hare· will · Oe- ano- increase in resource davelgpment. The figures say there will be a deooemphasis in resource development. The doCUIIlent says we will be less dependent on Ottawa.

The fiqures say we are even li!.Ore depeJllient" on Ottawa · than· aver before ·. That, Mr. Speaker, . is..wha.t.. I deplore 1110st· abcut: this ~ant". I have- s4-i.d that ~a· are certain thinqa I welcaaa .about the dOCUIIlent and I :ouppose the iliqhliqht of that, M.r. Speaker, is the· P:emier's decision · in· respe~ to the Econcaic:.

Mvisos:y CO.W:lC:ll•· I... have--lonq held the-,. view ., that we> do liCit often aDQuqh seek the axpertiae wtU.c:h is available to us in vati.ous fields before we maka a. decision, saaat:imes a precipitous decision, saDetimes a decision which we.. qat...lo<:ked intg and. - can IIQt al.ter vezy easily for 1260

Auqust 2, 1979 Tape 496 IB-1 MR. SIMMONS: parliamentary reasons or for political reasons or for fiscal reasons. I have 1onq held the view that before ~tting into 1Arqe econcmaic_ · and fiscally oriented" decisions that we ought to have available the best o!ldvice, the best kncwledqe,the best research that there is. MR. WHZ'l'E : I want to raise a point of order. MR •. SIMKlNS: Olcay, qo ahead. MR. WHI'l'E: Mr. Speaker. MR. SP~ (SIMMJNS1: The hen. member for Lewisporte. MR. WHJ:'l'E : I want to raise a point of order, Mr.

Speaker, and that is why I am risinq because it is almost five o'clock and under Standing order 31 (kl "Not later than 5:00 o'clock p.m., on any Thursday, the Spealcer shall indicate the matter or matters to be raised at the time of adjournment,• referrinq specifically to the Late Show. That has not been done and I just wondered if it was goinq to l:le done today or not. DEPUTr SPEAXER (BOT'l') : The Speaker will take the Chair and he will make known of that. MR.

SPEAKER (SIMMS.) : It is not quite f.i.ve o'clock but u..ther than have to interrupt the proceedings later on I wt~uld like · to inform the a:ouae that I have received notice of one matter for debate at five thirty when a motion to adjourn wLll be deemed to be before the Housa ..... notice given. .by the. han.. maab~. for_r.ewisporte . arisinq. out of a question- asked. the- hen:.. th& .Minister - o£ Con~ Affairs and ~t. Uirs~ .Newhoak)_. 'a&, suhjec:t...matter,.I. . belie.ve,.wa~­ related to the spraying . o:f chemicals on, our highways. Bay d'Espoir. MR.

SIMMOHS : The hon. member for Burgeo Thank you, ~ Speaker. Mr._ Speake:r::. it is the _ deception in this .· particu:lal:.budget..:tba:t.:::is:cparti.c.ular.ly _ d:iscoru:erting and I hope the Minister of Finance . (Dr • . C~ll.ins) . in time wi.:U 'address. h.imself to it because it kind of puts him out on a limh. ! am sure that the speech he made he made in_ good faith. I think he made it 1261

------~- August 2, 1979 Tape 496 IB-2 MR. SIMMONS: fee~inq he had the best command of the facts but somewhere, either his co11eaques in cabinet or h:is · senior officials let him down because in one mouthfUl you cannot say there is less dependence on Ottawa and then in the nextT the few pages in this particu~ case, you find that the dependence on Ottawa in tezms of actual dollars or percentage dollars ru.s gone f:rom 42 per cent in 1972 to 52 pu cent seven years later. That is more dependence on ottawa - and it. is. deceivinc;. . fQr the , Minister of Finance (Or.

Collins) or for the government to make statements to the contrary, very deceivinq. The resource development issue is one that we will address ourselves to more. But aqain the message is out scmebcw that this government is doinq thinqs for resource developllle.nt . But the figures do not back up that messaqe and, therefore, it is a very deceivinq, a very deceitful messaqe. Mr.

Speaker, the consumers in this Province . have a bone . to pick. with 1;his government because · whiJ.e.. .this government has lamented - and-talked . lonc;.and. hal:d_ about how the food prices have gone up to a shoc:kinq deqree....:- and .they have, do not get me wronq, they have. They have gone from a base of. ~100 in 1972 to S177. They have gone up 77 per cent. That is a hefty increase.

But compared to tax increases , Mr .• speaker, tax increases decided .by · this · gavernment, . bz:ouqht on., by this government, il:l'· te:cns·-or tar.-revenues- ·on - -personaJ. inca~~a. and. on cr.etail . sales, _ __ _ fOod priC'I!S: · ~ ilrt8%li!S! o:f. com.puison . ... . Sevent.y .-savren , per . cent-- .-·.:· per cent, 300 par cent increase in · retail · sales- tax. That, Mr. s~ar, is the bona these people out thus have to pick with this government. Why is it, Mr.

Speaker, that this qovernment- ·is· prepared to sit- ther. · and -- finance their . mao. -schemes, their Cole contracts, finatlee · their mad schemesr Mr. Speaker, on-- - -· . the windfall profits of the averaqe Newfoundlander, the windfall profits from these taxes . Why not, Mr. Speaker, instead of continuing 1262

August 2, ~979 Tape 496 MR. SIMMONS: to add to the bureaucracy, instead of cantinuinq to dream up mAd schemes like the Cole contract, why not, Mr. Speaker, a tax rebate, ~y not for a year or so a tax decrease. 1263 IB-3

August 2, 1979 Tape No. 497 GH-1 MR. SIMMONS: The Premier during the election promised there would be no increase beyond ll per cent in the retail sales =x, no 1.ncrease oeyonci l.J. per cen~ 1.n the re~ai.i sa.l.es t:ax. Well, do not forget, Mr. Speaker, who put it up from 7 per cent to 9, or from 6 to 7 to 9 to 9 to 10 to 11, the Tories put it up there to 11 per cent. They socked it to them, Mr. Speaker, and then '"-hey got it up t:o ll par cent and after socking it to the taxpayer, then the leader of the government said, "We are not going to increase it any further". Now, what kind of an undertaking is that?

That is the equivalent of saying, "First I am going to kill you, and then I will not hurt you. First I will shoot you, and then I will not lay a finger on you. First I will knock the financial gOod out of you, I will drain you for what you are worth, and then you got my word that after that I will leave you alone.

First· I. will kick you, _ but then I will not kick you any harder·- · I 'ldll. just. keep: kickin~you_ to c the .~= rate of 11 per cent, but no harder. ~ And. then ·he goe,s,.-on.· to- admit.­ of· course~ that the: real: reason, heo is-·-noe increasing the-- tax is· · · because increasing prices are going to- give him more: .r£urn. on the .-_ same t:ax anyway. He is going to get the windfall profit. we are back to the old windfall return again. Mr.

Speaker, I say t:his go-vernment could. do a great service t:o the people of Newfoundland if· it looked at: it$. tax policy as- it. .affects.. tbe: Newfoundlandoconsumar and redistribute · some- of-.that :·windfitil . t:ax;-profit- back to the- conSUIIIeae,::.----­ ., -·instead-'" of using -- it to, bui-ld . on-= a.lready:<larqe:o bureaw:raC?-----. ;. ,__ Mr. Speaker, thesa:are· just . soma of the concerns I have about the Budget.

I have already said . that at once I would like to address·-mysei:f ··to many; ·many-othar--issues ,·in thi-s~- ·- particular Budget. ' There c are many hare-that need to be-. addrassed . ... _ . __ . . Some of them we will have the opportuni.1:y _of~ addressing . ..in.. COIIIIII.i.tte.e, -- ----~--- .. ·•· - -· - ·o-thers, . I· ur- sure,· we- wi:ll·get : an opportllJUty:ta. address-in_ the -:­ Address and: Reply and: m · the.:.variaus~ , bi-l::l~,-:t-he-."1!10ney bi--Hs. a~- they come before the House. But, Mr.

Speaker, for the time being, I just wanted today to highlight my concern about the Budget deception 1264 - ------ - -- -- . .. :

Auqust 2, 1979 Tape No. 497 GH-2 MR. SIMMONS• on a number of points and the escalating tax revenues which the Newfoundland people are paying, and I believe paying unjustly, and I believe this government ought to be d<ling something about it. The .onus is on this government_ to do something about it and I hope they will do it fairly quickly. MR. SPEAKER: (Mr. Simms) MR. STAGG: hon. gentlemen and ladies. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The · hon. the · member for Stephenville. Thank you, Mr.

Speaker, thank. ·. you, · _ well, I think that Hansard may record and maybe the people who listened to the hon. member this afternoon can say that the member for Burqeo -Bay d' Espoir ~oned interminably or at least what appeared to be interminably, because he had five - or - six points to make, - he made -them:, c and- then cbecause · ..

Jla-:haa · mada, _them~"" --:-: -::~-.-- .: . - ·- .-:~ • in the first ten minutes he : decided-:-~•- -·~WI!fl.-1;-"'L ·have: lllllim:t:l;ed - ti.mew.:: .c-:-~'­ -consequently- I must- speak- as- if- I · ha~ unl-imited· mater±ai u "" ---·- •• - -- - - ·-- Onfortunate-l.y :, .. he. had. very- . limited: matm:i.U. : and:. one,: of. the= ma.i:n: . points in his argument was-ter-atta-ck "the- Minister - of E'inance-.- the former Minister of Finance for Newfoundland, and the present Minister of Finance for Canada.

The hon. member seems to have the opinion . tha.t.tha Ministar=OLF1nanca. ~ranada is Ul. .d.isqra.ca,_ .tha.t.. _____ . - - - --··- scmehow · orr~ other the. peopl.a. of.. NewfoundlaDd. and.- .the: . people .on . this.. ; .. __ side' of the- '!iouse ·and- the;.· people:--qenera:ll'f'·-th:ink · tha t-·.--the:. Hcm;;.-Jchn---c.. .

Crosbie mad~~' · a~ foal ' of.:ll:i:msalr.:--wtril.e>ehe- waso Miniistar.o:f: F·iiJa.m::a-.for- : -:=-· -.. . -::-: ·NewfoUIIdl.and ,__ ancbhas=.gone--up; . ta.-~an.cr.. ·.dantr ths- S&llle>.t:hincr-- -·~ · .. ---·-· - ... - . • New, I will say to you and I woul.d suggest that the people of canada and the Ron. Joe Clarke t!:ti.nlc. otherwise, ·thae .. the Ron.;- John C; Crosbie; whose . talents -were iecognized- very-·ear:l.y· by- ~e.--then P.r.emi.er..--of-:cthe- ,·:o:- · c Province, the Re. Ron -. Jcseptt R. - Small~·- who;. nabbed · ·hi.m- i:nt~ his-- Cabinet in. 1966 and - _._ .. MR. NEARY: ­ MR.

STAGG: Re is not Rt. Ron~ -Not Rt. Hon ., well, maybe he should be . - the Hen. Joseph R. Smallwood wanted him and he proved to be such a handfUl and he was so competent that he. had to get ..:tid of. him. 1265

Auqa.st 2., l979 'l'ape No. 497 GH-3 MR. S'rAGG: l!e had to qet rid of him, and I would - sU!Jqest that the lion. John C- Crosbie . is one. of the c;uat. patriat$, one of the ~eat Newfouncnanders tnat wa will see in t:hl.s qilUtar centuz:y, maybe one of the great NewfoundJancters of the twutietb centlU'y. ADd it ill behoov- any llll!lllber of this · Rouse of Assembly to -be.· sta:adinq up and castinq aspersiou on him. and I will qi.ve you UIOtber e.xalilple, l.aciie:s and qantl~ of the qallary and hon. 1118111bers, Mr.

Spealce:r:, and Whoever el.Sa.lllay.ba--listen.i.Dq ., af:_tha_ so:r:t:of ... thinq t.M.t the member foe Bu:r:qeo - Bay. d.!Espoir. (Mr. s.i.Jaax)aa) .is capal)le of. I have befare ma a publication ca.Ued Atl.aDtic Insiqht, a ve:r:y qood pW,U.C:.tion, I rec01111118Dd it to cyona, and there is an

article in there by Bill Kelly. I p:r:esUIIIIl that is the Bi.ll Kelly who used to be with the EVening: TeJ;eq:am, a r;ewfoundJander. It says, "Lin~ Fare-. -May Gat sappy EDdi.ncJ",- · · · -- ·-·· · · 1266

August 2, 1979 Tape 498 IB-l MR. STAGG: and in the second paragraph there - I am quoting- from t.'lis maquine !lOW - it .sa.ys, "Liberal., .Roqer · Silnlllons-, aecusedo provincia~ cabinet Minister, John Crosbj,e, of havi.nq a "vested interest" in the government takeover of the lllil.~ from John c. Doyle's Canadian Jave.lin back in 1972." Nov, if the hon. member did 110t say that I wo~d certainly like fer him to at some staqe gat up and say that he did net. But it ·appears. .quite. el.ear .to.-me.--- at least Bi~l Kelly, a Newfoundlander, says that the man who is presentiy the member for Burgee-Bay d 'Espoir (Mr.

S1mmons) accused the hon. John c. Crosbie of beinq a crook. It is as s.imple as that . "Sillllllons said crosbie, now a heavy", - I am quctinq aqain from the publication - "Simmons sa.id Crosbie now a heavy in Prime Minister aark ' s government provided "a gravy train for one or two members of the Conservative Administration". Again quctin9-, " " I.ibe~r Stave ' ~aJO?i ~ .o=r._ -- •• .. ·-- .UD.laashad . hia-own...tiradll-~ s:a..~- about.-a-1110Duman~p.-OU-~- __ .: Crosbie waa- the-Cha iTl!IIU) of . .thai:. crcwn .. ow:ned;;. llloi.J.l-" :-aow.r--Mr. . -- - . - .

Speaker, I waul.d like to address myself a littie bit to industrial ·· development gen~~y and- to· speak about · Labrador- Liner.board somewhat'; I thinlc this is re~avant to the Budget Debate . It. certainly is as relevant aS=-tha,~:tliP~r of. dialoqua: ~the:-. type a£;. tirade .th&~t:ba- . - memb~fa:c: ~1!&-y..:cL'. EapQil:...- bad.-i;, ~r!. . .subllit:.,. M:.-Speaker,. that:. it is. a· possibll;i~if:.-thr.: . paopl.&' oL.Ba.¥: - St-~·;cGeo:r:qe.: in: 1975;:: ·- 7 . had. ~ seeiP fit:ta=Plect= pi c;;S· too.·th&-110~o:f,A .. semb4'o· tbae- ·lltllybe.- .the· linerboarci. IILill. llliqht net. .have: c-losed down.

You might say, wall they ,::. .-.- clo•ed it down-. beca.us~. thay-had.,_el~ld-I.ibm:aJ;s_ ZDd:i.l:ectly.:.tmu::"llla¥~ -::.;..... --­ ba true because, it. . bee-. tha.- ·pol.i<:y ,. of the.: cLiheral ·lllelllbers:- fl:I!R:'- ~--- ·- '"- • . Bay St.· Geo:r:qe. and with --the< active part±ciptlltion o£ the, however- many .thers:. :lnlr'& ' on-· th&, ~siae:,.: ~or. s~: to.. kill. ·the:" govUmae!!t:c~;··.~- ­ . throllg'h I.abzado~Lin~ and:.::!.t-di.d " not - ma.tter ~ that-~:: _...;c..--=.. : · Linerboard miqht go down with it. That did not matter. And I k!IOw, Mr.

Speaker, havinq l.ived there and gone through the menta.! anquish 1267

August 2, 1979' Tape 498 IB-2 .IUL S'l'l\GG: and the economi.c anquish tbat besets a cQIIIIIIUIUty when your main indust:y is bee~ a political footl:lall, beinq paraded a!xNt aDd thrown allov.t by people wbo do not cue anythin~ about you. All they are after is po.-r, pdWC. ADd so as a route to power the destruc:tion of Labrador Liner!xiud. What encauraqement would the han. c. w. caociy have to keep La:bzador Liner.baa.rd open

---~ · ~ Auquat 2, l979 Tape 499 EC - 1 MR. STAGG: woz:kara a.t LaDrador LineztxJard, -ssaga• and Ulbarruainq intonation .., .. fed i.a. ·tt~ue provaeiu bt'OWD' an-lopea- · to·IIIUibers. "Of • tn..Oppoal.~ ·-' · --. to be pUb.l.i.d.zad a.t tha IIDSt propi.tioua liiOJDUlts . pollti..cally.., an4. .I.sutlmt that llc.D.. --.bers 011 the othar sida are re•ponailUe for tha <:l~illq of Laarador r.inemaard in 1977. I INks that .u a. politi~ arqumant.

Maybe hoD. ..a-n on the othe:c side mar wUJ! to ~apond to it. .au.t as a. penon wbo wu llvinq the:~:~~ ·met- not:: ill pollt::!:cs ·a.t-tnc--c-,, -ttlat; - --­ ia tha war I •- it.

I woulli su.q~t that i.f a. 1110:1:11 a:m&t:ul:tiva- appro~-­ to it h.a4 been talceA it is po••~le thAt. the 90'l11CU1181lt lliqht lla.'l11 stzuqqled a.l.onq with it for another c:ouple, of year. to find a. buyer, but wha.t · en.c:ow:aq-t w.u tha:~:~~ for the gow=-nt to da anyt!Unq with Wbrador r.i.ae~ except <:loee it wbell all. that wu OOIIinq ou.t frOIIIl tba OppoBi.tiou speecb:-her.-in·thr'ftmme-Speech-daba~--It>-~ pare of- tb_f .. lincJ ~--- · -· Stapanvillrinciwrt.xi.-&1---a.--lcpl*lt· ·th&t-penad88- pollti~ d.z:cla&- i.A •. t.h.i&__ - P~-an4-I....z.eroed.. i.D.. Qll;;oth-..pub.llc:..nrli.c:&-, but.

I suq~t_ that_ there .. __ -· - .:.·llappeudo. iz»<S~.J.&..,.....~-th~Mo-v.&y.>-~thinqa to be-.tp~M:t:j,c~~-- - ~­ ·AAcl; I-.aa.:tt:-. ~~- liiUIIba:&.~gppoaj.~~woal-4:.s~tb:iA~ . l.Ute ---- =~·. -,:,.-- _ e -~ --.,."7. ~- --,-, "-~~-tbi&= --alllk'..-..:fa&<~·lcz'DR_-tblly:, azao,.~teck- a;,~- of:;: tileo ~ti.oDc ..• -,.; .. 7' -..,;:. - ­ wbo woal.d s-ar tta.t .1otut: c:o.Da •. ~Mi.nis~ of: Pm&Dc-. . in 19-72.-; one of --- tb8' ~e p&~O~">'&:LftSt•d -,-i.A~j.Q,<t,bsw;-"0.-..-::-. ·'='·--"-'··-- .. . ---... . 1269

--------~~~ ~ - ... ""..:. August 2, 1979 Tape No. 500 GH-l MR. STAGG: that the people of N'ewfounclland gave a verdict on the type of representation, the type of philo~ophy that they ·wane to· se~, the type · of philosophers; if -you- wish; ·that· they . want to see running this Province, and they gave their verdict on June 18 , and they opted for this side over. here. They opted fo.r positivism. They opted for a fresh look into the 1980's. The bon. member for Burqeo - Bay d.'Espoir (Mr. Simmons) may have been the Freudian slip.

Be t4lked about looking · forward in1;.o the o·l97a•s ana· he did not correct himself. It 111ay have been the E'reudian slip • _ _ that is all I know about Freud, bue maybe the hon. member might be a good subject for Freud with some of the thinc;s that have come out of b.i.JII. Now, Mr. Speaker, havinc; dealt with that as expertly a&,Lposs.ibl,y coul~which-.!..suqqest.._ .~.adequate;...; __ ;.·.::..:...~ - ·-·· I would like to"~talk:.about ona-:o~,the ~ iniLia.ti.ve8;'-takan...,bY>.~= -·, -_,'"""''-"'', aclministrat:ton:...-:~t:-with: . .t::na...cero~cm--o£..-ehl!r!

O~t:.icm · bu%....-.-: ~ :..• _ _ ~ neverthe-l:esso;••it- wa&- a ~~~ain~ plaak - -in-. tha..e.lec.tion..caJIIPillqn.~ UL.tbe . _ _:_ -· ___ _ Premier -'-s ann:=cements' ~eafter.~-,.It•-waa.-the. -, sec.tin~.l.lp of...tha. _._,_ --~ . __ Committee system. Now, · as· one- of the COllllllittee- · cha±rmen,.- I· ·a~~~> - ~e" to say that I believe the- COII!IIIittee · syrtem- is working very, very .,ell - - MR. F. B. ROWE: ...In spite of.. the chairman. -MR.

STAGG·:-··-:-:-.:.' .. ... -. and· I would suqqeat.. ..,. in- spit~ o~ dur±nc; :-the:-ccn=rance:debabs:-. biU:;...I:"'Cilld :. suc;qes:t;;. to- hon .... mem.b.ers=-:-:-::_. ~- - .:. . -....,=-- and'- to-~y-. when: haa.' been.- foJ.lowt~~thef. - Sw:b;et.• d-Hl&1:a:. or:. tiler Est imatH--~-' in the past, that tha · type- of· speech thae- th~~r melllber for surqeo - say d I Espo:i:r · gave-here- m·the-Badqat--dab&"t!e-r is- typ.i.ca.lr- of •. the..~, ._ • . --: ·of speech that" used. to . c~ .from..-twoe-o~ three . of.. the. ~heavy--i<}bta~"- -· .. .. on tha other side ·durlnq:cthe- -.!s'tima,tes .·-· -.!l:ber. -.would . qet qp ' and . havinqo~- · - practicallY "' unlimited - -::ime::durinq:_ . the~ Estimates, : that.. ·:is-the.-sort · c~f. · · - , · - -:-,.: · " thing · would= COllie ' out. ' of.: them, ;:.ana I. ~~t !want . to, tel.lc- the- . ~l.e.Jwl:~- _ '" '"" .. _ •=: - .. _ . who spoke this morning in the Estimates on Transportation and 1270

.·· August 2, 1979 Tape No. 500 GH-2 MR. STAGG: Communications. The minister spoke first, then the member for