Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 19A (31st Legislature, 4th Session)

31-4-19a

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Time : 2:3 0 p. m. LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANI TOBA Tuesday , 18 March , 19 80 OPENING PRAYER by Mr. Speaker . MR . SPEAKER, Hon. Harry E. Graham (Birtle- Russe ll ): Present ing Petiti ons. READING AND RECEIVING PETITIONS MR . CLERK: The Petition of The Agri cultural and Community Distric t of Newdale , Praying for the Passing of

An Act to amend

an Act respect ing The Agri cultu ral and Community Di strict of Newdale. MR . SPEAKER: Pre senting Reports by Standing and Special Committees . • Ministerial Statements and Tabling of Rep orts. .Notices of Motion. .Intro- duction of Bills ••• INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MR . SPEAKER: Before I call Oral Questions, I would like to draw the hon ourable member s' attention to the gallery , where we have 23 students from Grade 5 from the Crane School under the direction of Ms . Tethman. This school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Minister of Health .

We also have 36 students of Gr ade 7 standing , from the Warren Elementary School , under the direction of Mr. George Shadlock . This school is in the con stituency of the Honourable Minister of Government Services. On behalf of all honourable members we welc ome you here this afternoon. ORAL QUESTIONS MR . SPEAKER : The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR . HOWARD PAWLEY (Sel kirk ): Mr . Speaker , my question to the Minister res ponsible for Public Works, responsible for Information Services.

Can the Minister confirm that Room 68B, the press conference room, is available to ministers and opposition members of the Legislat ure at all times? MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Government Services . HON. HARRY J. ENNS (Lakesi de) : Ye s, Mr . Speaker , I can confirm that to be the fact . There may be occasions where scheduling is a problem but certainly as a matter of policy , that is a fa ct. MR . PAWLEY: Mr .

Speaker , can the Minister advise whether or not it is the policy of his Ministry and of Government Information Services, to te rminate sound after a news conference held by a Minister of the Crown, at such time as a critic may wish to re spond immediately thereafter ? MR . ENNS : Mr . Speaker , obviously the Leader of the Oppos ition is dealing wit h a specific situat ion or occasion. I would have to take that question as not ice and report to him at a later date . MR . PAWLEY : Mr .

Speaker , I would like to deal wi th a specific instance whi ch will assist the honourable member in taking the question as notice. Pertain ing to the press conference held by the Minister responsible for the Environment Sunday afternoon. On completion of that press conference, the critic for the Environment immediately went to respond, using 68B , to find that the sound - 1091 -

Tuesday , 18 March , 1980 had been cut off and the technicians there indicated that they would not re-establish the sound because only the Minister had made arrangements for the use of 68B . MR . SPEAKER : The Honourable Minister of Government Services . MR . ENNS : Mr . Speaker , I think, like any other request of service of one kind or another from government , it 's a matter of courtesy and ju st common sense that prior arrangements are made for the use of that facili ty .

Again , I don't know the specification of this particul ar situat ion but if there was no request for that service made prior to the news conference in quest ion , then it may we ll be that the personnel in Room 68B had not scheduled their time to facilitate additional members using the fac ili ties at that time . MR . PAWLEY: Mr .

Speaker , then to the Honourable Minister , will the Hon ourable Minister ensure that there is adequate flex ibil ity so then when there are snap press conferences called , that the critic for the individual department in volved has suitable opportunity to utilize those faciliti es, to respond in the event of a snap press confe rence held, conducted by a Minister of the Crown. MR . ENNS : Mr.

Speaker , as indicated earlie r , I am more than happy to give the Leader of the Opposition the undertaking that I will look into the matter and can assure him and other members of this House that all members will be treated fairly in this regard in Room 68B . MR . SPEA KER : The Honourable Member for Inkster . MR . SIDNEY GREEN: Mr . Speaker , I would like to direct a question to the Honourable the Minister of Urban Aff ai rs .

Can the Minister of Urban Affairs as sure the people of North Winnipeg, who have been long awaitin g another traffi c artery to that part of the ci ty , that the monies which the Provincial Government would make avail able , and promised to make avail able for the Sher brook-McGregor Overpass, will still be available to the City of Winnipeg should they wish to pro ceed with that fac ility? MR . SPEAKER : The Honourable Minister of Urban Affair s. HON. GERALD W.J. MERCIER (Osborne ): Mr .

Speaker , we have, as a provincial government , allo cated some $7 .6 milli on of UTAP monies to the City of Winnipeg for construction of the Sherbrook-McGregor Overpass. As the Member for Inkster will be aware, the federal government , prior to the May election in 197 9 , unil aterally undertook a review of that particular projec t. I understand that review is now completed , al though I have not yet recei ved a copy , although we have been request ing one for some time .

It has long been our position , al though rail relocation is a desirable alte r native, that before that rail relocation can be undertaken by the city and by the province, there has to be a fi rm commitment from the Federal Government as to their position with respect to cost sharing . That has never been received from the federal government and we have been pressing them on that matter . Mr . Speak er , as far as we are concerned , the Sherbrook-McGregor Overpass should proceed unless the Federal Government have an al ternative program which they make a specific commitment to. MR . GREEN : Mr .

Speaker , since the possible pie in the sky of rail relo cation has been used to deny the ci tizens of North Winnipeg that additional facil ity for the last 12 yea rs, would the Minister see whether there is any way of dealing with the problem so that there will be a facili ty and if rail relocation comes, that will be an additional benefit rather than something which is used to deny the citizens of North Winnipeg that artery? MR . MERCIER : Mr . Speaker , I want to assure the Member for Inkster that the day after the Cabinet appointments were announced , I wrote to the new Federal Min ister , Mr .

Pepin, to bring to his attention immediately the serious concern that - 1092 -

Tuesday , 18 March, 1980 we have in this province with respect to this facility and I hope that we will get an early response and decision from the federal government . MR . SPEAKER : The Honourable Member for Inkster with a final supplem entary . MR . GRE EN: Yes, Mr . Speak er, on the same quest ion.

If there is , in the Minister 's vi ew, going to be again interminable delays with regard to this facil ity , would the Minister consider discussing with the Minister of Transportation another great separa tion as between the portion of Winnipeg south of the tracks to that portion of Winnipeg north of the tracks at King Edward or Keewat in or other suitable location? MR . MERCIER : Mr . Speaker , the question is based on the assumption that there will be interminable delays . Mr . Speaker , my lette r went to the new Min ister the day after his appointment , just a few days ago .

I have not yet received a re sponse. I hope that the federal government will act with some certainty , and quic kl y , with respect to this matter and considering that the new Minister has only been in office for a few weeks , Mr . Speaker , I'm prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt . But as the Member for Inkster has indicated , this problem has been before the city for a considerable amount of time .

There are questions related to the Urban Transportation Agreement itself and the funding under that agreement and whether funds will lapse , and the added inflati onary costs that de lay brings to this project , and we , together with the City of Winnipeg , will be pressing the Federal Government for an early and quick response to this matter , Mr . Speaker . MR. SPEAKER : The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge . MRS . WESTBURY : Thank you , Mr. Speak er .

Some of the comments made by government members last evening have raised some more quest ions and I would like to address a question to the Honourable Minister concerned with the Environment relative to the MacGregor derailment . When did the Minister speak first to the Federal Minister of Transport or to the Federal Minister charged with the Environ ment in connection with this derailment? MR . SPEAKER : The Honourable Minister of Consumer and Corporate Aff ai rs. HON. WA RNER H. JOR GENSON (Morris ): Mr . Speaker , discussions with the federal people have been carried on at the offici al level.

The representatives of Environment Canada and rep resentatives from my department have been in constant consultation. MRS . WEST BURY: Mr . Speaker , wou ld the Honourable Minister confirm then that after he was talking to the federal Manitoba Minister , the Minister assured him that any federal assistance that was necessary was available , and specifi cally that there is an Emergency Measures unit on duty 24 hours a day for the Department of Transport that was available and is available to the Government of Manitoba on requ est , and that still no request has been made for that unit? MR . JORGEN SON: Mr .

Speaker , I do not see the necessity of activat ing such an organizati on, since I don't perceive of any emergency at the present time . MR . SPEAKER : The Honourable Member for Churchill. MR . JAY COWAN: Thank you , Mr . Speak er . My question is to the Minister of Labour . Can the Minister indicate if he has directed any personnel from his de partment to the derailment site outside of MacGregor, and if he has done so can he indicate what role they have been playing throughout this cleanup of the vinyl chloride spill? MR . SPEAKER : The Honourable Minister of Labour . - 1093 -

Tuesday , 18 March , 1980 HON. KEN MacMASTER (Thompson): There have been several of my staff who have visi ted the particu lar scene, Mr. Speaker . MR . SPEAKER : The Honourable Member for Churchill with a supplementary? MR . COWAN: Yes , thank you , Mr . Speak er . The second part of that question is, wha t role have they been playing and could the Minister be more specific as to indicate what positions they have occupied while they were there and how long they have been there .

Al so, can the Minister indicate if any non-federal employees have been employed in the vinyl chloride spill cleanup and if so, can he indicate if they have been advi sed by his department of any potential or possib le safety and/or health haz ards they may face , and have they been advised of the proper procedures to follow in order to avoid undue exposure to vinyl chloride and/or any other hazards at the vinyl chloride spill site? MR . SPEAKER : The Honourable Minister of Labour . MR . MacMASTER : The Member for Churchill asked a series of que stions.

I think they 're more in order if he was to write them down, Mr. Speaker . Again I repeat , there have been several members of my department out there . Some required for speci fic dutie s, others in an observing capacity . MR . SPEAK ER : mentary . The Honourable Member for Churchill wit h a final supple- MR . COWAN: Ye s.

I'd ask the Minister then if he has had any discussions, or his departmental representatives have had any discussions with eit her represen tatives or member s of the Maintenance of Way Union in order to in form them of the serious and potential health hazards they may face at the MacGregor derailment site, and if so can he indicate when they were and what exactl y was discussed? MR . MacMASTER : Mr .

Speak er , the presumption is that there is a serious health hazard at the particular derailment site as it relates to those that are working on a specific site, and that hasn't been determined that that in fact is a fact , Mr . Speaker . MR . COWAN: Mr . Speaker , can the Minister then confirm that the CNR has belie ved this to be of serious enough consequence to call in 10 workers for med ical exami nations today and 18 maintenance of way workers for medical examinati ons tomorrow and that they are directing specific examinations in regard to vinyl chloride exposure be conducted on those employe es?

Can he confirm that at least CNR thinks it 's that serious? MR . MacMASTER : Mr . Speak er , I stated a day or two ago , and the re cord will determine when that wa s, that I had been in touch wit h C.N . and they had told me at that particu lar time they were going to set up a medical review of those people who were involved . In conjunction wit h the union they have done this . There are, in fact , 10 people coming in and I wa s talking to the national rep resentative of that particular union approximately an hour and a half ago . They are having these people come in to (

a) register them , such as I said in the House a couple of days ago , should be done ; (

b) to have thorough medical s, which I had suggested is a very commendable suggestion on behalf of the union. This is taking place today on 10 men and tomorrow I understand , 18 are coming in. Thi s is to relieve those people of any fear that they may have as to the re lationship of the contaminant that they migh t have been within "X" distance from. This I have all made clear in this House befo re , that this was going to take place. To the Member for Churchi ll, it is taking place, just as I said it would . MR . SPEAKER : The Honourable Member for Church il l with a fi fth question. MR .

COWAN: Thank you , Mr . Speaker . While the Minister indicates that these physicals are taking place to relieve the employees from any fear of - 109 4 -

Tuesday , 18 March , 1980 exposure , can he confirm that these physicals are taking place because these em ployees have been exposed to levels of vi nyl chloride and the physicals are being conducted in order to ensure that they have not been overly exposed and that they are not now sufferin g any significant health hazards and that they may in the future not suffer any signif icant health hazard? Is that the reason for the exam inations or is it , as the Minister indicated , the reason only to relieve them of their fears? MR . SPEAKER : Order please.

I suggest to the honourable member the question is argumentati ve. The Honourable Leader of the Opp osition. MR . PAWLEY: Mr . Speak er , my question is to the Minister responsible for the Environment . Can the Minister confirm that he has received a request from one J .W. Werier for assistance in ensuring the transportation of some polychloride phyble (sic) , some 45 gallon tanks, from Manitoba to other points in Canada where such chemical could be destroyed? MR . SPEAKER : The Honourable Minister of Consumer and Corporate Aff airs. MR . JORGEN SON: Mr .

Speak er , I wish to thank my honoura ble friend for gi v ing me notion of his intention to ask this qu estion. The answer is as follows : On October llt h, the Environmental Control Branch was informed of the existence of PCBs in a J. Werier and Company warehouse . The company had purchased five 45- -gallon drums of Pyrnoil from one of the rai lways as salvage . We have been unable to determine when the purchase was made, howeve r, we are endeavouring to search this information out from the company records or from the railw ay .

Immediately upon notice, the Environmental Control Branch advi sed the company as to the proper method of storage and disposal of the material. They were sup plied with the names of three companies that undertake the transportation and dis posal of PCBs . Upon the advice of our personnel, the material wa s removed into isolated storage. Since the original notice was receive d , branch people have been in contact on several occasions with the company , urging them to make arrangements with one of the companies we identif ied for them for safe removal of the PCBs .

It appears that the company is somewhat reluctant to undertake the removal because of the cost involved . We understand that one disposal company has quoted a price of $64 5.0 0 per drum . --(Interj ecti on)-- I wonder if my honourable friend wants to hear the answer to the question or he wants to continue mumbling from his seat? Today we learned that a piece of electric al equi pment was moved into the same storage area this morning and in the move, liquid material leaked from the equip ment . The company that last serviced the equi pment was contacted , it was found that the material was oil , not PCBs.

The Fire Department has inspected the storage area , is aware of the material and the fire risk . Mr . Sam Werier , president of the company , wrote to me asking for financial assistance in the removal of the drums. It is noted that no financial assistance was extended to Canada Packers by the province, nor to Hydro for removal of their material s. We will investigate this matter further , howeve r, and if there are some mitigating circumstances , some consideration may be given to Mr . Werie r' s requ est . MR . PAWLEY: Mr . Speaker , my further suppl ementary to the Minister .

Can he advise the House as to when his minis try first became aware of the existence of the PCBs? MR . JORG ENSON: I think , Mr. Speaker , I indicated that in the initial part of my statement on October llt h , last year . MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opp osition. - 109 5 -

Tuesday , 18 March , 1980 MR . PAWLEY : Mr . Speaker , leaving asi de the question as to costs of insur ing the immediate transportation of the PCBs out of Manitoba , can the Minister assure us that steps will be taken to ensure that the PCBs, in fact, are trans ported out of this province at the earli est possible occasion? MR . JORGENSON: Mr . Speaker , that goes without saying . We are not inter ested in keepin g PCBs here any longer than it is absolutely necessary . However , I want to suggest to my honourable friend that it wa s Mr .

Werier that bought the PCBs and we feel that, unless as I said there are mitigating circumstances, that it is his re sponsibil ity to move them out. MR . SPEAKER : The Honourable Member for St . Johns. MR . SAUL CHERNIA CK: Thank you , Mr . Speaker , I 1 d like to address the Honourable Minister of Consumer Aff airs . On March lOth , he undertook to look into the FLIP flex ible loan insurance plan and of how The Mortgage Brokers ' Act pro tects people to ensure that they have full knowledge of the implications and ramifications of the plan. March lOth is when he undertook to look into it and advise us . MR.

JORGENSON: My offici als are going through the Act to determine whether or not the precautions and the safety is contained in the Act and as soon as I have that report , I will communicate to my honourable friend . MR . CHERNIACK: Mr . Speak er , just as a supp lementary , may I ask that the Minister ensure that - has the Minister been advised that there is a stepped-up program, apparently , been announced even more recently which may or may not be of a similar nature , but still by the same organization that seems to be sponsoring the FLIP plan. I don't have the details on that.

Could he also investigate that aspect to ensure that the department is kept up to date and is ready to act as quickly as possible. MR . JORGENSON: I think it wou ld be helpful if my honourable friend could identify that particular program . However , I will try to endeavour to find out if my departmental officials do have information on it and do as he has requested . MR . SPEA KER : The Honourable Member for St . Johns wit h a final supplemen- tary . MR . CHERNIACK : Mr . Speaker , I thank the Honourable Minister . This is a new matter I'm raising with the Minister .

In connection with the discussion we had recently , which was cut off by the termination of the question period a few days ago dealing with the finance company which had what is termed il legal loan contracts or contracts which are improperly set out and resulted in breaches having been found, can the Minister in dicate what progress has been made in ensuring that interest adjust ments to the borrowers affected by the breaches of this unnamed company have been carried out to date? MR . JORGENS ON : My memory is not faul ty , Mr . Speaker .

I believe that the incident that was indicated by the Director of the Consumers' Branch was one that took place some time ago . I will find out whether or not full settlement has been made in that particular instance , as I believe it has. MR . CHERNIACK : Yes , Mr. Speak er , I thank the Honourable Minister in that regard , and possibly it has been attended to alrea dy .

Could he indicate whether , in view of the fact that there appears to have been only two or three audits a year out of a very large number of firms dealing with these contracts, and in view of the knowledge of the defaul t and the impact on the consumer , has the department stepped up the number of audits that are being conducted amongst these firms? MR . JORGENSON : The practi ce, Mr . Speak er , has been to act upon complaints from people who are involved , and if there are a number of complaints directed towards the same company , then we carry on an audit . If they are isolated , then - 109 6 -

Tuesday , 18 March , 1980 they are just simply drawn to the attention of the company and almost invariably has been corrected so there has been no need for the au dit. But as I indicated earlier if it goes beyond that , then evidence is submitted to the Attorney -General 's Department and they make the decisi on as to whether prosecution is proceeded with . MR . SPEAKER : The Honourable Member for Rupertsl and. MR . CHERNIACK : •• Mr . Speaker , on a point of order , I had a supplemen- tary question entitlement . MR . SPEAKER : The Honourable Member for St. Johns with a fifth question. MR . CHERNIACK: No , Mr .

Speaker , with a second supplementary question and that , Mr . Speaker , is to get to the Minister for Consumer Aff airs , to ask whether he is prepared to increase his program of public education to invite more invest igation to ensure that their rights are being protected under The Consumer Protec tion Act. MR . JORGENSON: Mr . Speak er , that's part of an ongoing program by the department and it was during that particular process that the matter became public by the newspapers when it was raised .

In light of the controversy that arose , I hope that the director of the Consumers Branch is not going to be reluctant to carry on in the manner that he was prior to that time , because I feel that he carries on a usef ul function in drawing to the attention of the public , the manner in which they are being protected and I hope nothing interferes with his ability and his desire to do that. MR . SPEAKER : The Honourable Member for Rupertsl and. MR . HARVEY BOSTROM: Thank you , Mr . Speaker . My question is to the Minister of Labor .

Given the Minister 's statements of concern to the House this past week , can he explain why , as Minister of Labour , he did not ensure that the workers on the site of the vinyl chloride spill were wearing the proper protective clothing and proper protective breathing devices? MR . SPEAKER : The Honourable Minister of Labour . MR . MacMASTER : I am sure , Mr . Speaker , that the Member for Rupertsland has heard the answer before; the answer specifically being that I do not have juris diction on the particular work site.

But I did say to this House repeatedly that we did have concern and we were in touch with every conceivable authority that could be associated with that particular incident , Mr . Speaker . MR . BOSTROM : Mr . Speaker , disappoint ing answers from this Minister are like the disappointing answers from the Minister of ••• MR . SPEAKER : Order please , order please . The question is out of order. Would the honourable member care to rephrase his question? MR . BOSTROM: Yes , Mr . Speak er , my question is to the Minister of Environ ment .

I would ask the Minister if he has had his staff or any one from his department investigate any potential danger to the soil and ground water in the area of the vinyl chloride spil l, and any subsequent danger to the residents of the area through any contaminat ion of the soil or ground water? MR . SPEAKER : The Honourabl e Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affair s. MR . JORGENSON: Mr . Speak er , constant monitoring has been taking place at the site and I don't intend to repeat the results of that monitoring, they are well known.

Our departmental officials are out there working in close co-operation with the federal authorities and the CNR in ensuring that the environment of the province is protected . - 1097 -

tary . Tuesday , 18 March , 1980 MR . SPEAKER : The Honourable Member for Rupert sland with a final supplem en- MR . BOSTROM: Yes , Mr . Speak er , in this same regard , can the Minister then assure this House that his department will be doing everything they can to ensure that the saturated soil and/or snow in the area of the vinyl chloride spill will be cleaned up bef ore the spring melt? And I might remind the Minister that that spring melt is already occurring before his department 's even taken action in this regard . MR . JORGENSON: Mr .

Speak er , my honourable friend 's knowledge of the situation is now coming to the fore . If he is suggesting that in the process of transferring the chemical from the damaged cars to new cars on the track , that we should be digging around in the snow to see if we could find vinyl chloride, then he is mistaken, because our best advice is that the spill site should be left exactly as it is until the cars have been removed . MR . SPEAKER : The Honourable Member for Burrows . MR . BEN HANUSCHA K: Ye s, Mr .

Speaker , I wish to direct my question to the Minister responsible for Information Services and it arises out of a statement made by that branch . My question is, is Dow Chemical continuing to refuse to co-operate with the government and thus continuing to make the government look like goddam idiots, which his department is quoted as saying . MR . SPEAKER : Order ple ase, order pleas e, order ple ase . The question is out of order. The Honourabl e Member for Burrows . MR . HANUSCHAK : Yes. Mr . Speak er , I was quoting from an

article which appeared in the press today, a statement attributed to a staff person for whom this Minister is responsible . MR . SPEAKER : The Honourable Minister of Government Services . MR . ENNS: Mr . Speaker , I welcome the opportunity of responding to that question and indeed perhaps the Minister of Environment can add to it , but simply to indicate through you , Mr . Speaker , and through the medium, to the people within the Community of MacGregor , that there will be an opportunity for information to be gained by all residents of that area at a communi ty meetin g at noon tomorrow.

I believe the Honourable Minister will be present alo ng with independent and company experts to explain fully and in detail the exact situation that the community of MacGregor now faces. Mr . Speaker , I think it was prudent on the part of the offici als of my depart ment , Information Services, and/or others, not to give hasty and perhaps not accurate or misleading statements to anybody when that information as yet was not avail abl e . MR . SPEAKER : The Honourable Member for Burrows . MR . HANUSCHA K: Ye s, Mr . Speaker , I have a supp lementary question to the same Mini ster.

Would the Minister confirm a statement made by provincial informa tion officer , John Heath, when he said last night , "I am not getting any co-operation from Dow"? MR . ENNS : Mr . Speak er , I cannot confirm that. I can confirm that a great deal of attention has been paid to getting the ve ry best information available to be handed out and to be readily available by the residents at MacGregor and that has of course taken some time . In one instance , it meant the bringing to MacGregor a renowned expert from the University of Montreal . MR . SPEAKER : The Honourable Member for Elmwood. - 1098 -

Tuesday, 18 March, 1980 MR . RUSSELL DOERN : Mr . Speaker , I'd like to direct a question to the Minister of Education and ask him whether he would admit that he was in error last Tuesday , when he indicated that provincial funding would not help taxpayers in a division this year , if there was an increase in provincial funding, because it wou ld come after the board had set its 1980 budget and "would have no particular effect on this year's mill rate11• Would he admit that that statement is not, in fact, true at this point in time? MR . SPEAKER : Order . Order please .

May I read to the Honourable Member for Elmwood Citation 362 from Beauche sne: "Re ading tele grams, letters or extracts from newspapers as an opening to an Oral Question is an abuse of the Rules of the House . It is not good parliamentary practice to communicate written alleg ations to the House and then to ask the Ministers eith er to confirm or deny them .11 The Honourable Member for Elmwood. MR . DOERN : Mr .

Speaker , I then ask the Minister whether he now recognizes that given that there is a meeting set for the Cabinet and the Wi nnipeg School Division on Friday , the 2lst , that the city's deadline for making adj ustments to its budget are on March 24, and if anything is submitted at that time it can still be incorporated in the March 26 budget . Would he concur with that set of dates? MR. SPEA kER : The Honourabl e Minister of Educati on. HON. KEITH A. COSENS (Gimli ): Mr . Speak er , I understand that the informa tion the Member for Elmwood has just given us is correct.

That the 24th is the deadline date in this regard. MR . SPEAKER : The Honourable Member for Elmwood with a final supp lementary . MR . DOE RN: We ll, Mr . Speak er , I belie ve this is my first supplementary , since you ruled the first question out of order . Mr . Speaker , I would ask the Minister whether he is now considering, or he has reconsidered ways and means of providing additional funding to the Winnipeg School Division, over and above the sugge sted $1.5 million special grant , in an attempt to reduce an expected 17 percent tax rise in the city this year? MR . COSENS : Mr .

Speaker , I think I have answered this question previously but certainly we' re qu ite prepared to meet with the board on the 2lst to hear their concerns and then to give those concerns due considerati on. MR . SPEAKER : The Honourable Member for Transcona. MR . DOE RN : Mr . Speaker , on a point of order. I believe I have a question MR . SPEAKER : Order please . There is no point of order raised by the Honourabl e Member for Elmwood. Recognition during question period is purely the prerogative of the Chair. The Honourable Member for Transcona . Orders of the Day . The Honourable Member for Ste. Rose. MR .

A.R. (Pete ) ADAM: Mr. Chairman, I have a question to the Minister of Agricultu re . In regard to the leasing of grain cars, I would ask the Minister if he could advise if the province is leasing cars from the rai lway companie s or from a leasing company, or both . MR . SPEAKER : The Honourable Minister of Agricul ture . HON . JAMES E. DOWNEY (Arthur ): Mr . Speak er , the cars that have been le ase d to this point come from another company , not from the railroads. - 1099 -

Tuesday , 18 March , 1980 MR . ADAM : A supplem entary , Mr . Speak er . I wonder if the Minister could advise if the grain cars that the province is leasing, are cars that have been rehabilitated by the taxpayers of Canada. MR . DOWN EY: No, Mr . Speak er . MR. ADAM: My final supplementary , Mr . Speak er . I would ask the Minister if he would table the leasing agreements in order that members could have access and peruse these agreeme nts. MR . DOWNE Y: Mr .

Speak er , in light of the fact that the province is in current negotiations on some additional cars at this particular point , I don't know whether it would be possible to table the lease agreem ent . I think in the best interests of the province, we would have to give considera tion to that and assess it very careful ly. MR . SPEAK ER : The Honourable Member for Transcona . MR. WILSON PARASI UK : Thank you , Mr . Speaker . My qu esti on is directed to the Attorney-General .

In view of the fact that his department has been aware of this followin g case for at least five months , is the Minister in a position to report on the whereabouts and safety of four children, aged 3 to 10 , who were kidnapped from a constituent of mine last October by her legally separated husband and have not been heard of since? MR . SPEAKER : The Honourable Attorney-General . MR . MER CIER : Mr . Speaker , as a result of the attention given that matter by my department , a warrant was issued for the husband in that particul ar case . I will undertake , Mr .

Speak er , to ascertain the success or lack of success with respect to that warrant and advise the member . MR .

PARASI UK: I'd ask the Minister as a supp lementary , when he is looking into this matter , if he woul d check into the fact that the kidnapper apparently slipped through a supposed police trap of January 15, 19 80, when the kidnapper picked up a repaired vehicle , and this was despite Attorney-Gen eral and police assurances to the mother of these children, that this person would be picked up and that this person has since been told that no action is being undertaken to look into the whereabouts, the safety of her four children, and this person's becoming increasingly distraught in the apparent absence of any concerted eff ort on the part of the system of justice in Canada , to deal with this problem of kidnapp ing.

MR . MERCIER : Mr . Speak er , I'll take that question as notice. MR. SPEAKER : The Honourable Member for St . George . MR . BILLIE URUSKI : Thank you , Mr . Speaker , I'd like to ask the Attorney-General a question as we ll. In view of the al legations made by residents of the community of Vogar as to moneys that were solic ited by the Institute of Cultural Affairs for projects that were supposed to be destined for the community but had not material ized , would you consider to have ei ther your department or the RCMP Commercial Crime

Section investigate those al legations? MR . MERCIER : Mr . Speaker , I'm not aware of any complaint to my department in respect of that matter and I'l l there fore take the question as notice. MR . URUS KI : Yes , Mr . Speaker . While he 's taking it as notice, would he investigate as well what the actual donations were to this organization by private companies and members of the public . It 's this organization 's proposed budget and the disburs ement of funds that were made supposedly to this charitable organiz a tion? - 1100 -

Tuesday , 18 March , 1980 MR . SPEAKER : Order please . The member is asking for some fairly detailed informati on. I wonder if it couldn 't bette r be served by an Order for Retu rn. The Honourable Attorney-General . MR . MERCI ER : Mr . Speaker , I' ll take that question as notice, too. MR . SPEAKER : The Honourable Member for Lac du Bonnet. MR . SAMUEL USKIW : Yes , Mr . Speaker , I would li ke to address a questi on to the Minister in charge of the Environment .

I'd li ke to ask the Minister whether or not he can assure the House that there is no danger of vinyl chloride permeat ing the soil and reaching the ground water supply system in the MacGregor area , or whether there is any danger of it leaching out into the rivers and streams of the area. MR . SPEAKER : Order please . That question was already asked today . The Honourabl e Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affair s. MR . JORGENSON: Mr . Speak er , I have no obj ections to reassuring my honourabl e friend that upon the best advice that I've been able to get , there is no such danger. MR .

SPEAKER : The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR . PAWLEY : Mr . Speaker , a question to the Minister responsible for the Environment . Can the Minister confirm that statements made by him to the effect that there were no immediate health or environmental hazards may very well have encouraged some of the workers to work in the area without the appropriate pro tective garments and other materials? MR . SPEAKER : previously today. Order please , I believe that question was also asked MR . SPEAKER : The Honourable Minister of Consumer and Corporate Aff ai rs. MR .

JORGENSON: The statement that I made - and I just looked it up - I said that there was no danger to the environment beyond 100 feet from the spill . My concern was for the environment outside the immediate area . The responsibility for matters at the site of the spill falls under federal environment autho ritie s and the Canadian National Rai lways . MR . PAWLEY : Mr .

Speaker , a further supplementary to the Minister respons ible for the Environment , can the Minister confirm that statements have been made by Dow Chemical spokesmen to the effect that the vinyl chloride may, in fact, dissipate into the atmosphere by the time the derailment is cleared? MR . JORG ENSON: Mr . Speaker , I wou ld be something more than a mortal human being if I was to be abl e to prognosticate how long it will take for the wea ther to dissipate that snow or , indeed, how long it wou ld take to transfer the chemical from the damaged cars to the new cars.

I have no knowledge of how long that would take , and I have no knowledge of when the snow will melt. MR . PAWLEY: A further supp lementary to the Minister . Is the Minister attempting to ascertain, then, ways and means that action can be undertaken now to ensure that the vinyl chloride is not evaporated into the atmosphere , prior to the fact that the derailed cars are removed ? MR . JORGENSON : Mr .

Speak er , I will again repeat that the best advice that I've been abl e to receive from several sources is that the safest way to ensure that no accident occurs is to leave the snow alone until the cars are loaded and moved out of the area . - llOl -

MR. SPEAKER : allotted time . Tuesday , 18 March, 19 80 Order please . The time for Question Period is past the Before we proceed with Orders of the Day , I took a matter under advise ment and I have copies for various members here . Prior to the adjournment of the House last evening and after the completion of the discussion of a matter of urgent public importance, the Speaker called Orders of the Day in accordance with Rule 27(4 ) of Rule s, Orders and Forms of Proceeding of the Legi slative Assembly of Manitoba. The Honourable Member for St .

Vital rose on a point of order to point out that the Business of the House was set aside for a matter of urgent public importance before the question period and, consequently , the House should not proceed with Orders of the Day until the Question Period has been utilize d by the House. After li stening to the various points of order raised by several members of the Legi slature , the Speaker took the matter under advisement to al low time for consultation with Legislative Counsel on the point of order raised by the Honourable Member for St . Vit al.

At the same time , the Speaker asked for the consent of the House to proceed wit h Orders of the Day with the provision that such action could not be considered to establ ish a precedent , ending an offi cial rulin g from the Chair. Such consent was not forthcoming ; consequently , the House adjourned . After consultation with Legislative Counsel , I should like to refer members to Rule 19 of Rul es, Orders and Forms of Proceeding of the Legislat ive Assembly .

Rule 19 is divided into two parts: Rule 19 (1) deals with the ordinary daily routine of business in the House which is fi xed and cannot be changed from day to day except with the unanimous consent of the Hous e, or by consent of the House in adoption of a reported change from the Rules Committee of the Assembly , or by the use of Rule 27 (1 ). This fixe d portion of the business of the House appears on the daily agenda for business under the heading of "Routine Busine ss" on the Order Paper .

Rule 19(2 ) deals with the flexible portion of the business of the House, which changes from day to day and covers all matter relat ing to government business and private member s' business . This appears on the daily agenda for business under the heading of "Orders of the Day" on the Order Paper . Under Rule 27(1 ) of Rule s, Orders and Forms of Proceeding, a member may move to set aside the ordinary business of the House. However , he cannot move to set aside the Orders of the Day . He must make his motion before Orders of the Day have been called .

What portion of that ordinary business he chooses to set aside is a matter of his own choosing, subject of course to his recognition by the Speake r. Once a matter of urgent public importance has been discussed , Rule 27(4 ) dictates the course of action to be fo llowed by the Hou se . The Speaker of the House is not the author of the Ru les of the House, nor should he be. The House itself , through either unanimous consent or th rough the Rul es, Orders and Forms of Proceeding, dictate the manner in which the business of the House is to be conducted.

Any changes to the rules are usually recommended to the House by the Rules Committee of the House. I hope that points out to honourable members the advice that I recei ved from Legi slative Counsel . NON-POLITICAL STATEMENT MR . SPEA KER : The Honourable Member for Point Dougla s. MR . DO NALD MALINOWSKI : Yes, Mr . Speaker , before the Orders of the Day , I wish to ask permission of the House to make a non-pol itical statement . MR . SPEAKER : Has the honourable member permi ssion? (Agreed ) The Honourable Member for Point Dougla s. MR . MALINOWSKI : Thank you very much . Mr .

Speaker , early Friday morning on March 14th a Polish Airline , LOT, flying from New York , crashed while approaching Warsaw Airport , killin g 77 passengers and 10 crew members aboard . I am informed that among those kil led in the crash were - 1102 -

Tuesday , 18 March , 1980 several members of the dipl omatic corps and 22 members of an American amateur boxing team. I wish to take this opportunity to express condolences to the executives of the Polish Airlines but , ab ove al l, I wish to express my condolences to all those fami lies affected by this tragedy , and I hope that this House will join me in doing so. Thank you. MR. SPEAKER : The honourable member has brought into this Chamber a rather personal matter. Is it the wish of the House to proceed with his request or • • I'm at the mercy of the Chamber. The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR.

PAWLEY : Mr. Speaker , speaking on behalf of the Opposition, we wish to endorse the honourable member 's request. MR. SPEAKER : Is that agreed? (A greed ) ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. SPEA KER : The Honourable Government House Leader. MR. MERCIER : Mr. Speaker , I move , seconded by the Minister of Government Servi ces, that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself in to a Committe to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Maje sty.

MOTION presented and carried , and the House resolved itself into a Committee of Supply with the Honourable Member for Radisson in the Chair for the Departm ent of Labour and Manpower ; and the Member for Virden in the Chair for the Department of Highways and Transportation. CONCURREN T COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY - HIGHWAYS AND TRANSPORTATION MR. CHAIRMAN, Mr. Morris McGregor (Vird en): order. We are on l.(c )(l). The Member for Ste. Rose. I call the committee to MR. ADAM : Thank you , Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN : The Member for St. Vital . MR. WALDING : Mr. Chairman, just on a point of order.

I believe that I was asking some questions of the Minister when the clock ran out at that last meet ing. I wonder if I might continue with those quest ions. MR. CHAIRM AN: I wasn 't chairing that last meeting, if the Member for Ste. Rose will forgive me? MR. ADAM : We 'll let him fi nish his line of question ing, I'l l talk after he 's fi nished I've got to be polite today. MR. CHAIRM AN: The Member for St. Vital. MR. WALDING : Thank you , Mr. Chairman.

I was asking the Minister some questi ons under Computer Services and al though Hansard is not available for that time , I do recall that the Minister told me that the total expenditures of his department on Computer Service s , other than the Motor Vehicle Branch, was some $709 ,400, of which the 397 is the amount that comes under (c). Can he confirm that my recollection is correct? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. - ll03 -

Tuesday , 18 March , 1980 MR. ORCHA RD: Yes, Mr. Chairman, $709 , 400 is the computer budget for the Highways Branch, of which 397 ,700 is identified in (c) (1 ) and (2) . MR. WALDING : I believe I asked the Minister the last time this was before us if he could give me an indication of what the comparable amounts were for last year? MR. ORCHARD: Last year 's budget on Computer Services , Highways Branch , $589 ,600.00. MR. WALDING : I assume , th en, that that is the comparable amount to the 709 ,000 for this year , in dicating then an increase of about $100 ,000 in computer Services? MR.

ORCHARD : That 's correct. MR. WALDING : I beli eve the Minister did indicate that there is one extra staff man year for this department in this

section for this year. I would like to ask the Minister if he could give us an explana tion of the need for one extra person and the need to spend an additional $1 00 ,000.00? Can he explain to us what problems were developing in the department that needs this extra expenditure? MR. ORCHA RD: Mr. Chairman, the department is undertaking setting up a new inventory control program for the warehouse stores system since we are integrated now with the Transportation Division of Northern Affai rs, plus our own.

That new inventory program is under design and the one extra SMY , plus approximately $100 ,000 of additional budget is to set up the new computer inventory system to accommodate the system that we hope to have in plac e. MR. WALDING : Mr. Chairman, can I ask the Minister if all of the computer time involved in these expenditures will be with the Manitoba Data Services or are there other sources of computer time? MR. ORCHARD : It will be all with MD S, Mr. Chairman. MR. WALDING : Thank you , Mr. Chairman, just one more question .

In his orig inal answer to me , the Minister mentioned that computer expenditures were connected with Motor Vehicle Branch and MPIC. He later corrected that as far as the Motor Vehicle Branch was concerned and said that they had their own expend itures for computer faciliti es. Can he explain the reference there to MPIC and the Department of Highways? MR. ORCHA RD: Wel l , the reference to MPIC that I made on Friday was indic ating that Motor Vehicle Branch , by the registration of vehicl es, etc. , performs a service for MPIC.

And those joint functions that have existed ever since the inception of Autop ac are carried under a entirely within the Motor Vehicle Branch appropriation and are not part and parcel of the fi gures that we have just discus sed. MR. WALDING : Thank you , Mr. Chairman, I don't want to break the rules of the committee by discussing something that we haven 't reached yet , but if the Minister can confirm then that computer-related services related to MPIC are not a part of eit her (c ), which we are on now, or any other part of the Highways Estimates other than Motor Vehicle Branch. MR. ORCHA RD: Yes. MR.

WALDING : No further questions , Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Ste. Rose. - 110 4 -

Tuesday , 18 March , 1980 MR . ADAM: Yes, I'm not sure whether the Member for St . Vital asked the question as to whether the expenditures for computers was done to a government agency ; is it to the Manitoba Telephone System? MR . ORCHARD: No . MR. ADAM: Wel l , who is this money paid to? MR . ORCHARD: Manitoba Data Services. MR. ADAM: Is that owned by the publ ic or is it a private firm? MR . ORCHARD: That's Manitoba Data Services. MR . ADAM: That's ours? MR . ORCHARD: Yes. MR . ADAM: And has all this money been expended that was appropriate d last year ; has it all been spent or is there a carryover?

What happens to any moneys that are not spent? Has it all been spent last year? MR . ORCHARD: Well, any moneys that aren't expended are lapsed automat ically . MR . ADAM: Was all the money spent last year that was appropriated for Data Services or did any amount lapse last year ? MR . ORCHARD: There was a certain amount that lapsed last year , yes . MR . ADAM: So this would end up in general revenue? MR . ORCHARD: That's my understanding , Mr . Chairman. MR . ADAM: Well, what amounts were not expende d? MR . ORCHARD: Well, Mr.

Chairman, we won't know the exact fig ure until March 31 at year end, but there will be a certain amount . At this stage of the game , it appears will not be spent in our last year's appropriation. MR . ADAM: Well, I am just wondering how can we find out then ••• Will we have to wait til l next year to find out how much money has not been spent through out these Estimates that has gone into general revenue s?

This is the problem that I have right now because we wou ld like to know what portions of the appropriations for last year have not been spent on whatever proj ects there are and for whatever they were appropriated for , if we could be provided with a list of every depart ment and how much has not been spent so we would know how much has lap sed. MR . ORCHARD: Mr . Chairman, at this stage of the game , when we are almost at the year- end, we have estimates as to what our expenditure for a given appro priation is going to be. However , the final numbers, even at March 31 , are not exact numbers.

They have to be confirmed , of course, in the normal process of the audit . And the exact expenditures are available at the time of the Annual Report , and that's been a normal ongoing situation probably even since we have undertaking budgeti ng within the department. MR . ADAM: Well , since the budgetary practices , the ways of keeping the budget have been changed and we have a quarterly report which changes from time to time , from quarter to quarter , there should be some approximate estimate of what amounts are going to be lapsed .

Otherw ise , how can the government come out with a quarterly report if they don't have these figures from each department? This is my problem, we'd like to know ••• - ll05 -

Tuesday , 18 March , 1980 MR . ORCHAR D: Well , Mr . Chairman, to date , in the quarterly estimate of expenditures within the department, we are projecting that wit hout any unfore seens, such as the latter part of March involving three feet of snow, we are pro jectin g that we are going to be about on target for the department as a whole and will expend the budgeted dollars that were given to us. When it comes to specifics by individual departments, of course those figures are gue sstimates until even March 3lst and aren't verified until the final statement of the year- end audit comes from the auditor . MR .

ADAM : Is the Minister saying then that it will not be possible to get any figures at all on what we 're dealing with here . We 're dealing with these Estimates now; we 're not deal ing with them , you know, after the 3lst . The Minister is asking us to approve monies for the program for 1980-81 and it wou ld be, I belie ve , only just that we receive some kind of an answer to those questions because they are important to us . This is our responsibili ty; our job is to look at the Minister 's Estimates and try and analyze exactly what 's happened and I hope the Minister can provide us wi th some kind of ••• MR .

ORCH ARD : Mr . Chairman , as the Member for Ste . Rose has indicated , this is when we study the Estimates of the fiscal year 198 0-81 and I can assure the Member for Ste. Rose has indicated , this is when we study the Estimates of the fiscal year 1980- 81 , and I can assure the Member for Ste. Rose that it will be the department 's utmost undertaking to assure that that $149 ,1 60 ,200 is expended in the year 1980- 81. We project by the last quarter that we have prepared the internal financial statements that we will indeed expend the total budget or very very close to it. I think the Member for Ste .

Rose can appreciate that you 're not going to be right on to the last dolla r and cent , but we are going to be, by all projections and barring, as I have mentioned earlier , some rather unforeseen weather circumstances that may throw our mainten ance budget for the month of March helter-sk el ter, we will be by and large on target for last year 's spending Estimates . And I think that should adequately allay any fears that we voted ourselves too much money la st year .

I think, qui te the contrary, the department has been undertaking to assure that , for instance, on the capital construction budget that we are very close to target . MR . ADAM : Yes, I'l l probably be raising these questions again unless some of my coll eagues want to raise it now that have diff erent questions to ask in this regard . I will be raising it again as we go through the Estimates.

But the former Minister of Highway s, I believe , said a couple of years ago, or last year even when we were questioning him on this budgeting , the new system of keeping books , that in order to do $75 million worth of projects, they had to program for about $125 million. I'm jus t speaking off the top of my head , but I mean figures are figures and I'm just using those figur es. But I think that's about the way the Minister was explai ning it to us , that in order to MR . ORCHA RD: Thank you , Mr . Chairman.

If I might interj ect at this point, that refers only to the construction budget where there is that multiple of the voted amount . Wi thin departmental Estimates there is no such mu lt iple involved . That is only in the construction budget , which is very complex in that you cannot always expend exactly every dollar you approve in a given year . That only applies to Appropriation 15 ( 6), Mr . Chairman , so that particular refe rence by the former Minister does not apply to the appropriations that we 're dealing wi th right now. MR .

ADAM : On a point of information, would it also apply to 83 on mainten ance, the same formula? MR . ORCHARD: No , Mr . Chairman . The maintenance budget lapses and shows it as exact dolla rs. MR . ADAM: So is the other one. - ll 06 -

Tuesday , 18 March , 1980 MR . ORCHA RD: Mr . Chairman , there is no 1. 6 mu ltip le on the maintenance budget. We have to expend as close to the voted maintenance budget as is possible . We do not have the benefit of a mul tiple as we do in the construction budget , the capital construction budg et. MR . ADAM : Well , we have , I believe , on record the former Minister 's comments that any unexpended allocations of moneys for construction would lapse at the end of the year as well? That is the same thing . MR . ORCHA RD: Certainly . MR . CHAIRMAN: The Member for St . George . MR . URUSKI : Ye s, Mr .

Chairman, just along this line . Can the Minister indicate whether in terms of their last year's overall budget , and I pre sume as he has indicated that the maintenance budget they have to go , in terms of expendi ture s, follow as closely as possible what is voted and there is no carryover? Are there any funds in la st year 's construction budget which have not been used , of what was voted last year? MR . ORCHAR D: Mr . Chairman, no. We expect to be very very close to our voted capital budget on construction for last year; very very close. MR .

URUSKI : Has the accounting system that the Department of Highways uses changed substantially from what it was in terms of accounting for the construction budget and the budget changed in the last several years; the way they do their books? MR . ORCHARD : Do you mean in terms of lapsing of • • • well , of course , there wasn 't a lapsing of capital , but you mean in terms of meeting a target , a voted target for capital? MR . ADAM : Ye s. MR . ORCHA RD: By and lar ge, no.

The only diff erence now, as I understand it , would be that if we don't achieve our capital budget as voted , say we had $70 millio n voted last year and we only come up with $65 million at March 31 , then we would lose $5 million of our capital budget for that particular year and it 's not carried over . MR . CHAIRM AN: l. (c)( l) --pass; l. (c)( 2) --pass; (c ) --pass . Resolution 81 , 2. (a) . The Member for Ste. Rose. MR .

ADAM: I wonder if the Minister could give us an overview of what is happening in Management and Engineering , if he has anything new to report to us on any new things that have happened during the year . And in particu lar I would li ke to know if the Minister could advise us of a study on transportation that was, I believe , requested of the University of Manitoba on transportation in the Province of Manitoba. MR . ORCHA RD: Well , I don't know what study in particular the Member for Ste.

Rose is referring to but in terms of the operation of Management Services and Engineering , there are no changes in their basic operating mandate from last year , Mr . Chairman. MR . ADAM: Well , it seems to me , Mr . Chairman, in Traff ic , for one of the components of this department that we 're going to go into, there have been changes made in regard to reciprocity between the provinces. MR . CHAIRM AN: I wonder if I could jus t draw the attention of the committee to Traffic does come later in the same item under 2. (

e) at the bottom of the same page, and stay within 2. (a )( l). - 110 7 -

Tuesday , 18 March , 1980 MR. ADAM: I realize that but I thought we could get an overview of comments from the Minister on the heading , on the Operations and Contracts which covers a lot. MR. ORCHAR D: Well , Mr. Chairman, this is where our contract engineer is paid from, the one who eventually lets all contracts for our capital construc tion. Our director of Operations is in this appropriat ion, construction engineer , and our maintenance engineer and their various support staff and includ ing the typing pool that's available to these people. MR.

ADAM: Could the Minister advise, under the first paragraph there , whether or not there is any work being done on maintenance or anything that comes under here , are any of those contracts done without tender? Is all this work tendered or is some of it done ••• ? MR. ORCHA RD: Wel l , Mr. Chairman, whatever work is done out of House is tendered but we do have in-House work ; that is, district office crews and con struction crews do on behalf of the government using government equi pment and government personnel. And those of course aren't contract , I don't think, because it's in-House work. MR.

ADAM : But then, I outs ide work is all tendered. contract. understand that anything apart from that, any There is no work whatsoever done by private MR. ORCHAR D: Well , certainly there is a lot of work done by private con tractor, but it's always by public tender that any other contracts are awarded. MR. CHAIRM AN: The Member for St. George. MR. URUSKI : Thank you , Mr. Chairman. I wo uld li ke to ask the Minister where in his budget , whether it's in this area or is it in Planning Des ign.

Would the staff that assists in the overall planning mechanism of the province's land use planning input and as well , where does the staff that deal s with input on giving out cost estimates and policy advice to the government with respect to impacts that, what shall we say , abandonments of railways will have on the roads and that kind of inf ormation? Where would we discuss that kind of an item under? Is that under Planning and Desig n or is that under Operations and Contracts? MR. ORCHA RD : Mr. Chairman, to the Member for St. George , those functions are located under Resolution 82 , Planning and Des ign.

That's where we have those personnel. MR. CHAIRM AN: The Member for Burrow s. MR. HANUSCHAK : Mr. Chairman, I wou ld firstly li ke to ask one que stion. Does the printing of a map come under this appropriation? MR. ORCHA RD: Yes , Mr. Chairman. MR. HANUSCHAK : Very well then. I have two suggestions to make with respect to the map. No. 1, I note that there is an index of towns and cities and vi llages and one of Indian reserves. Of the cities and towns , they are lis ted in alphabetical order which are quite simple to locate. The Indian reserves for some reason, are li sted in numerical order.

Now the Minister might say that that 1 s been the practice of long-time standing. Well, be that as it may , I would sugge st that the Indian Reserves al so be shown in alphabetical order , in the same manner as the ci ties and tow ns, because I think the Reserves are better known by name than by number , even by the residents of them. If I want to find Brochet on the map , I've got to look down the entire column because it happens to be number 19 7, third from the end,

whereas if it were in alphabetical order, it would ap pear in its proper place. That is sugge stion number one. - 1108 -

Tuesday , 18 March , 1980 Sug gestion number two : The highway map now is done metric , that 's fi ne, and I would suggest to the Minister - and I would suspect this also comes under Manage ment Services - that in preparing his highway construction program, that it be done in metric too and then it would be easier for me , Mr.

Chairman, you know, looking at the construction program and looking at the map and get ting a more accurate overview of the distribution of road construction in the province, you know, to fi nd out - rather than have to convert every mile into kil ometres as one would have to do if one would want to see whether there is a distribution of con struction projects in all ridings or whether , as the map seems to indicate , you know, three ridings have received very li ttle : namely St. George , Lac du Bonnet and Ste. Rose. MR. ORC HAR D: Mr.

Chairman, I think that the Member for Burrows has an excell ent sugge stion, in terms of presenting the Indian Reserves in alphabetical order rather than numerical order, and I will give him this assurance that I will lia ison with the Federal Department of Indian Affairs to see if there is any particu lar reason why we should not be able to make that undertaking in next year 's map.

I have no idea of what sort of terms and conditions and parameters they might have on the list ing of Indian Reserves in any ju risdiction; however , if there is no problem I can see no problem in alphabetically listing the Indian Reserves . In terms of the gross oversight in having mileage on the construction program, I have to admit that it 's probably my farmer tendency showing through where I still identify road construction by the mile , by the quarter

section and the

section , and my apologies for the terrible amount of confusion it has caused the Member for Burrows. MR. CHAIRM AN : The Member for Ste. Rose. MR. ADAM : Yes , I have a further sugge stion to make. I don't know if the map does show, but when I am checking over the map to try and fi nd where a partic ular road is on the map , a number for a ro ad , I find it pretty difficult because there is qu ite a network of roads in southern Manitoba, and I'm wondering if we could no t have a list of the highway s, designating in the same way as we do the towns.

So where do we fi nd Highway 204 , or wherever it is, and it could be shown as one , wherever it is. There are numbers on the side of the map and there are the A, B, C, at the bottom, so that we can locate where a road is. Sometimes you have to look for 10 or 15 minutes to fi nd where a particular road number is, and I'm just wondering if that wouldn 't be of some assistance. So I put that sugge stion forward to the Minister for his consideration and maybe he can look at this for another ye ar.

But before I leave that quest ion, I would li ke to ask - there 's an increa se , I believe , of two SMYs in this department and an increase of $300 ,000 , approximately $300 , OOO . 00 . Could the Minister explain where these two SMYs are going and the requi rements or the need for an extra two SMYs? MR. ORCHA RD : There is no increase in SMYs in this department, Mr. Chairman. MR. ADAM: I apologize; I believe it 's on the next item. MR. CHAIRM AN: The Member for St. George. MR. URUSKI : Thank you , Mr. Chairman.

I would like the Minister to indicate whether or not there has been any change in procedure in terms of letting the contracts on highways projects , whether there 's been any change in the method of makeup of the contracts as in the past. MR. ORCHARD: No , Mr. Chairman. MR. URUSKI : Mr. Chairman, the contracts that are being le t, in terms of quant ities of materials used , are they us ing the conventional method or are they using the metric method now, in terms of the contracts? - 11 09 -

Tuesday , 18 March , 1980 MR . ORCHA RD: The highway , the road portion of the contracts are still le t. MR. URUSKI : The build ing? MR . ORCHARD: Pardon? MR . URUSKI : The building, the base bui lding? MR. ORCHA RD: Yes , the road contracts, the quantities of base , etc., etc. , are still let on the old system, cubic yards or tons. The Bridge Division is in the process of switching , and we have contracts which are capable of being let eit her way , either with the metric or with the old system.

The Deputy points out that the concrete industry , the cement industry , is in tonnes, so that 1 s the exception to anything I've said in terms of ••• •• MR . CHAIRM AN: The Member for Lac du Bonnet . MR . USKIW : Yes, Mr . Chairman, I would li ke to know under what

section we would discuss the situat ion where the department has to intercede where there is a contract in place and the aggregates are not adequate or don't meet the specs and there are other solutions that have to be introduced to resolv e such a problem. Perhaps I could be specifi c; that might he lp the Deputy Minister , Mr . Chairman.

My understanding is that on Highway 317 , east of Number 12 Highway , that the stockpile of aggregates that was establ ished by the contractor did not meet the specs and that as a result , the department was in the position of having to spend additional sums of money on that particular projec t. I'm wond ering whether that is a correct assumption of not , Mr . Chairman and, if it is, in what area was the Highways Department responsible for extra expenditure? That perhaps might be too dated for the Deputy to respond today, but perhaps he could take it as not ice . MR . USKIW : Mr .

Chairman, to the Member for Lac du Bonnet , the analysis of quality of aggregate to make sure that it meets with our department 's specs falls under the ju risdiction of (

b) Laboratory and Material s, and it would be them who would determine whether material stockpiled was up to our specification. MR . USKIW : All right , I'l l raise it then. MR. CHAIRM AN: 2. (a) - the Member for Ste . Rose . MR . ADAM: I have a further question to ask the Minister while we ' re on contracts - I believe we can bring it up on this particular item and that is in regards to the rates for gravel ha uling , I don't belie ve they have been changed for a number of years and I am receiving some complaints from truckers that the rates have not increased for a number of years and maybe, it 's time to.

In view of the fact that costs of equipment is increasing and cost of fuel is going up and insurance is going up , could the Minister tell us if there is anything happening there? MR . ORCH AR D: Mr . Chairman, this branch of the department review s the rates paid every year and we are reviewing them presently and may well, in view of some of the factors that the Member for Ste. Rose has brought to their attention, be increasing the rates thi s year . MR . ADAM : Yes , could the Minister indicate just when the last rate in crease took place? MR . ORCHAR D: Mr . Chairman, I believe it was two years ago. MR .

ADAM : So the Minister , then, is assuring us that very li kely , very shortly perhaps , that the people who are in the business of trucking for the Highways Department or contractors who have tendered for jo bs - they would be sub contractors, guys working for the contr actors; those are the ones that are tied to - 111 0 -

Tue sday, 18 March, 1980 the rates, eh , working for a contractor; these guys are subcontractors - the Minister can assure us, then, that there will be so me consideration given to these people. MR. ORCHA RD: Oh , yes, Mr. Chairman, as I mentioned, these rates are under review at the present time. MR. ADAM : Could the Minister give us an indication when this review will be completed and when the people can expect Will it be in time , Mr. Chairman, for the summer run for the summer ? MR. ORCHARD : Yes. MR. ADAM : Thank you , very much. MR. CHAIRM AN : The Member for Rossmere. MR. SCHROED ER : Thank you , Mr.

Chairman. I see in this item that we're dealing with some research ; I'm jus t wond ering whether the Minister could tell us what type of re search is involved and the kind of money being spent on that research. MR. ORCHAR D: Well , Mr. Chairman, it 's difficult to give the Member for Rossmere a specific dollar value that 's being spent on research because , for instance, we have on a regular basis personnel from, as an example , Labratory and Materials, Bridge s, Traffic.

Those three , in particular , we on a periodic basis send members of staff within those divisi ons to various conferences and informa tion seminars so that they can gain further information into some of the new techniques that are developing throughout all ju risdictions in highway construc tion and br idge design. And we have personnel who are working on, from time to time , a specific research proj ect into the better use of aggregates , for instance. But , in ter ms of having one man spending one full year researching a speci fic subject , that 's not easily identif iable.

It 's in the mix of duties that we have given the various people within the staff of these divisions. MR. SCHROEDER : Thank you. So the person who is providing management services with respect to Bridge De sign , Engineering , Traff ic , or Maintenance is doing, in addition to those func tions, he 's doing some research to keep up to date wit h the latest technology. That 's the purp ose for the use of the word "research" . MR.

ORCHAR D: Yes, he may well be and th en, as well , he may have , for instance, someone, a person employed below him in the department, take on for a two-week period a given research proje ct; like say a new method has been proposed by another ju risdiction and he will give it to one of his staff members to see whether that has an appl ication within our department and with our construction or mainten ance program. MR. SCHROED ER : Thank you. MR. CHAIRM AN: The Member for Ste. Rose. MR.

ADAM : Yes , I would like to just revert back to a question I asked the Minister be fore in regards to tendering, whether all work was tendered out. Would this include the winter road program, as well ? I'm referrin g specifi cally to the winter road program, for instance , Me-Ke-Si Company and Oxford House Indian Band and so on, Gilbert North Air Strip. MR. ORCHA RD: Mr. Chairman, the Me-Ke-Si contract on winter roads is not contracted out. That has been a contract that was negotiated some three years ago, and we do not have an option to provide that to date to anyone else .

That one is a negotiated contract. - 1111 -

Tuesday , 18 March, 1980 MR . ADAM : So then it is not correct, the statement that we received before , that some of the roadwork is done by private trea ty ; there are some excep tions to that rule . Would the work done by Oxford House Indian Band from Oxford House to Cross Lake , would that be a similar arrangement? MR . ORCHARD : In the case of those series of contracts , other than Me-Ke-Si , we invite tenders from the communit ies involved and we do choose the lowest tender amongst the communitie s. MR .

ADAM : Yes, then, if I understand the Minister correctly , say, the Oxford House, the Indian Band contract $69 ,000 for 42 mi les, that would be the lowest tender received , is that correct or whatever? And Gilbert North , for 23 mil es ; I'm not using ki lometers ei ther , Mr . Chairman, I'm us ing miles because that 's how it showed in your report . Th at 's how it showed in your news bulle tin, so I just copied it down. Would that be a private treaty or is that also a • • • ? MR .

ORCHAR D: Well , the Gilbert North • • We 've got a somewhat unique situation with winter roads in that we make every attempt to employ the native communities and sometimes I think it 's fair to say we use a littl e bit of poetic licence on our contract tendering, in that we will negotiate with the bands to assure that their tender is the one that is chosen by the department so that the communiti es themselves get the employment . It 's not like the situation where we have a road construction contract where basically it 's thrown out to the wolves in the free market bidding.

There is a certain latitude given so that we can assure the native communities get the work . MR . ADAM : Yes . Well, this opens up the question as to how many bids were there on the Oxford House ••• ? think tion. and I MR . ORCHA RD : Well , Mr . Chairman, we 're getting into some specifics which I the information can be provided when we get to our Winter Road appropria I don't have the specif ics on each tender, if that 's what the member wants, can certainly get that for him , come 8.( b), where we deal with Winter Roads. MR . ADAM : Yes .

I'm more concerned about the policy now than what specific tenders or contracts or bi ds, whatever there were . What I'm more interested in is if you receive two bids and one is hig her than the other and you go back to the other fell ow and say , "Well, now, look , you 're too high , you should come down", I'm just sort of wondering whether that kind of a thing exists or not. MR . ORCHA RD: No .

What will often happen, if two communit ies for instance, from point 11A 11 to point 11B11 with a community on each end, bids on the contract we will often split the contract down the middle and give some to each community , not all to one. That 's causes some problems but in the long run we feel it 's better to provide a piec e of the pie to both communities rather than have one community take it . MR . ADAM : Yes . Well , Gilbert North , is that an Indian Band or is that just a private individual? MR . ORCHA RD: I don't know. I don't know, Mr . Chairman. MR .

ADAM : Well , I'll wait till your administration or your assistants •• And while I'm waiting, Mr . Chairman, perhaps I co uld. . • Also there is the Berens River Band contract for 41 ,600 mil es, south of Berens River . MR . ORCH AR D: Mr . Chairman, if we want to move to Appropriation 8.( c) , we can get into the details of each and every winter road in the province . But I suggest he 1 s asking policy quest ions but then he gets into the specifics of each road which are more appropria tel y , Mr . Chairman, dealt with when I have my approp riate staff who handle the road program. MR .

CHAIRM AN: We are on 2. (a )( l) . The Member for Lac du Bonnet. - lll2 -

Tuesday , 18 March, 1980 MR. USKIW : Mr. Chairman, I wanted to know from the Minister whether or not, what amount of research dollars are bein g applied to areas of Safety Resear ch. I believe I've raised this be fore. Is there a program within the department that is solely preoccupied , you might say , with the question of design , whethe r it's br idges or abutments or the signs, or whatever it is, that would make the highway system safer. And I don't say safer , Mr.

Chairman, from the point of view of everything being normal, I say safer from the point of view of some abnormality taking place in the course of the car that one is driving , in the course of weather conditions that occur from time to time , and so on. You know, it all has to do with , for example , if you're bui lding roads it has to do with slope , whether or not there is sufficient slope to pretty well assure that you wou ldn't have a roll-over situation under certain conditions. I recal l, not too long ago , Mr.

Chairman, a trial by error situation where there were a number of tragic events that took place before the Highways Depart ment changed their polic y , it had to do with the solid concrete abutments in the middle of a highway where people have crashed right int o them and have ki lled themselves, and so on. Surely there must be some research capacity that deals with the question of design and all of these things that would minimize traffic accidents and death.

The other area that comes into mind is not necessarily a Safety Research Program in that connection, and that is whether it isn't time for the Highways Department to look at the question of illumination at major intersections in order to reduce the number of accidents. I know that the Highways Department will say that it isn't the policy of the government to light up the intersections, other than overpasses and four leaf clover s, and so on. But it seems to me , Mr. Chairman, that that's a logical area of extension from the safety angle for the Highways Department to consider.

There are many accidents that occur because of the lack of proper visab il ity at key intersections, people overshooting the intersection or turning in the wrong place, and so on. Surely we can spend a few mill ion dollars out of the Highways Depart ment budget in the area of better illu mination in these key areas, Mr. Chairman. MR. ORCHAR D: Well , Mr.

Chairman, the Member for Lac du Bonnet brings up quite a number of points and I think, by and large , the department, as I indicated to the Member for Rossmere , that by and large the department does address itself to the issues that the Member for Lac du Bonnet raises. Although I cannot identif y within the department ; (

a) an employee who is specifi cally year round spending his time on Safety Research , but as a for instance, in terms of testing new products which will enhance the safety of our highways. Last summer , I believe , or was it two summers ago that we incorporated an ice- melt ing compound in an overpass at the Headingley cloverleaf in an attempt to test new safety features that can make overpasses, which become particularly slip pery in cold weather or be fore other stretches of the highway. Every time we undertake the upgrading of a PTH or a Provincial Road , Mr.

Chair man, we undertake a survey and design and part of the crite rion of undertaking that survey and design is where possible , where feasible and where economical , to remove any potential danger spots in the grade. For instance, a sharp embankment , a poorly al igned bridge , a blind corner, an angled intersect ion, etc. , etc. Our ali gnments are always part and parcel of any upgrading that we undertake on Prov incial Roads or PTHs.

In terms of the overall general pictu re of safety we have staff whose member ship is very active on such things as the Canadian Conference for Motor Transport Administrators and in a number of other cross-Canada and International Safety organizati ons, which meet on a regular basis to discuss the very newest of such things as pavement designs, the crash barriers in front of overpass concrete support s, some of the things that the Member for Lac du Bonnet has mentioned.

I th ink , by and large, as I mentioned on Friday , I think the department is, in terms of relative success, you can never have 100 percent successful Highways Department in terms of safety because you cannot one hundred percent eliminate human error from the traffic fatality statistics or injury statistics. But by and large , I think , in comparison with other juri sdictions, I think the province can consider themselves quite proud of the job the department has done over the past - 1113 -

Tuesday , 18 March , 1980 number of years of incorporating as much of the current safety technology , let 's call it , into our road system of the provinc e. And I think by and large, Mr. Chairman, although , and I fully appreciate the Member for Lac du Bonnet 's concern in terms of safety , that 's a concern that each and every one of us has. I think by and large , in a very positive way , the department undertakes very very good and successful eff orts in making our highways safe . MR . USKIW : Well , Mr . Chairman, I appreciate that the Minister is recept ive to the idea. He is, however , unable to identify any particular thrust or any parti cular

section of his department that has the responsibility of dovetailing wit h the engineering people and the construction people to make certain that these kinds of criteria are follo wed . And I am certain the Highways Department is doing everything that it knows that it can do in that regard . But I am certain, Mr . Chairman, that there are jurisdict ions in North Amer ica where considerable amounts of moneys are spent in researching this very area and that perhaps a lo t of this information is available without having to spen d a great deal of money .

It 's a matter of looking perhaps south of the border to see what they are doin g and maybe the department is doing it . I would be pleased to know that they are . But it seems to me that a small branch or component in the department that is totally preoccupied with that question would serve that issue bette r than sort of having everyone generally aware that there is a need in the area and that they should be cognizant of it . I think a specific thrust of a

section of that department would be the solution to making sure that we do every thing possible , that in the construction and the maintenance of our highway system that we reduce the number of deaths, the number of accidents through the predeter mi ned actions of the department , in the construction period and so on. MR . ORCHA RD: Well , Mr . Chairman, if I interpret the Member for Lac du Bonnet's sugge stions correctly , he is sugge sting that we set up a separate safety research branch per se, and that is a sugge stion that will be looked at and no doubt has been looked at in the past by the department.

But I think in bringing out his requ est , I hope the Member for Lac du Bonnet hasn't failed to recognize that in fact the province has a very good safety record and I think our staff, by and large , keep very much abreast of, as I mentioned befo re, international as well as cross-country safety developments. I see on a regular basis across my desk, as a matter of information, a number of safety bulletins and jour nals that come up from the United State s, various United States jurisdict ions, in hi ghway safety . Mr .

Chairman, I would suppose we could make a comparison here to Manitoba Telephone System and for instance, Bell Telephone , where Manitoba Telephone System operates minimal research into research and devel opment

whereas Bell Telephone does, by and large, the major innovative research into telephone and communica tions te chnology. Like wi se , I think our department, not unlike most other high ways departments of its size , relies on the research and development done by other better financed and more mature development and research people into safety . And our department avails themsel ves very very well of new developments, I could safely say in all ju risdictions in North America , of recent highway safety innova tion. MR . USKIW : Well , Mr .

Chairman , I could think of a whole host of things that would add positively to that question and I'd throw this out as a sugge stion to the department and I know that in doing that that they are not the ult imate department that is re sponsible here . But it seems to me that from time to time we read about high speed chases on the part of the police trying to aprehend a person that was speeding or whatever . And that I don't know whether it isn't worthwhile considering , Mr .

Chairman, that the Department of Highways and Transportation and the Att orney-General 's Depart ment take a look at that one from the point of view of determining whether it is worth the $50 fine that you are going to get out of a person that you catch speed ing, as opposed to the hazards that you have exposed a whole number of people to duri ng the chase . Not only the party in question but others, eit her travelling in the same direction or in the opposite direction. - lll4 -

Tuesday , 18 March, 1980 And you know, I just know of a situation not too long ago where the police car was totally demolished in a chase. I don't think that a $50 ticket is worth it , Mr . Chairman. And maybe there has to be some new thoughts given to the mechanics of apprehending people on the highway in such a way that it doesn't endanger other people . It 's al l right to say that the guy has broken the laws of the land, the speed limits, or has gone through a red lig ht and we 've got to arrest or do something but I don't think it 's at the pri ce of endangering someone else .

That 's why I think a good safety operation within this department could highlight , not only in the area of constructi on, engineering, design, etc., but in the area of management of the highway system . And I wo uld hope that the Department of Highways wou ld want to play a role in that as a department concerned with the overall safety of our motorists, Mr . Chairman. MR . CHAIRM AN : The Minister of Government Servi ces. MR . ENNS : Well, Mr .

Chairman, I jus t wanted to take this opportunity to put on the record, on the subj ect matter that the Member for Lac du Bonnet raises re safety on our highway s, the continuing difficulty and problem that the depart ment faces and one that very often earns less than the compliments of the general public , but very important to this question and that is access onto highway s.

All of us from time to time have burdened a Minister of Highways , as we will continue to burden this Minister of Highways , pleading for special cases or causes to have accesses bui lt onto highway and these very often not in the best interests of the motoring public and very often contributing to, over the yea rs, a hazardous situation. Perhaps the most notable one, of course , and I am pleased to see in these Estimates that the department is doing it , is that stretch of road on Canada West from the Perimeter to Headingley. That situation developed because of the problems of restricting access over the years .

It didn't happen in a year; it didn't happen in fi ve years; it happened in over 20 to 30 yea rs, as the traffic volume grew. All too often, the department, in redesigning and build ing a fi rst-rate safe facil ity is then put under the pressures over the yea rs. A commercial develop ment , a motel , is bui lt somewhere which really should not be accessing onto a high-speed modern highway facili ty at that point , but it 's this kind of pressure that the Department has to withstand.

But they do so, and as I say , often earn themselves less than complimentary remarks , be ing accused of holding up develop ment or not being suffici ently understanding of the individual farmer 's needs, or the property owners' needs. But this undoubtedly contribute s, perhaps in the most major way, to the problem that the department faces in maintaining a high level of safety factor built into the roads. Mr . Chairman, I only want to put that on the record.

I wou ld hope that the Minister and his department continue to monitor this situatio n, and indeed, in this instance, the alte rnative is sometimes at some public expense, private develope rs' or owners' expense when accesses are denied and service road fac iliti es, for instance to a safe meet ing ·c rossing, have to be considered in this situation. Thank you , Mr . Chairman. MR . CHAIRMAN: The hour of 4:3 0 having arrived , I am leaving the Chair for the Private Members ' Hour , and will return at 8:0 0 o'clock . Committee rise. SUPPLY - LABOUR AND MANPOWER MR . CHAIRM AN, Mr .

Abe Kovna ts (R adisson) : This committee will come to order. I wou ld direct the honourable members to Page 70 of the Main Estimates , Department of Labour and Manpower , Resolution No. 91, Clause 3, Manpower Divisi on, Item (2 ) Canada-Manitoba Northlands Agreeme nt, (

a) Salaries--pass - the Honourable Member for Lac du Bonnet. MR . USKIW : Mr . Chairman , I don't want to take the time of the House , but the other day the Attorney-General rose on a matter of urgent public importance - 1115 -

Tuesday , 18 March , 1980 and argued that we could debate the MacGregor situat ion on this item, and I would just want you to rule whether we can or cannot. MR . CHAIRMAN: The MacGregor situ ation? MR . USKIW : Ye s. MR . CHAIRMAN: Well , to the honourable member , it just doesn't seem reason abl e at this point . No matter how I look at it , - you know, even the letter "M'' doesn 't seem to be consistent in • • • so I would rule that it wou ld be out of order. MR . USKIW : Thank you , Mr . Chairman. MR . CHAIRM AN : (a)- -pass ; (b )-- pass ; (c) --pass - the Honourable Member for The Pas. MR . McBRYDE: Mr .

Chairman, I wonder if the Minister could inform us as to how this program went last year ; whether he accepted the advice from members of this side during last year 's Estimates in terms of improvements to this program; whether he could give us some detail as to the number of youths who were employed ; and if in fact there were any federal programs in existence last year in this category and if so, how they divided the responsibili ty between federal and prov incial youth employment programs. MR .

MacMASTE R: We think this year that we will be able , we don't think, we will be in fact expanding the program this year from 28 0 jo bs to 310 and the program money is increased over last year , Mr . Chairman. MR . McBRYDE : Mr . Chairman, maybe the Minister didn't hear my que stion. I asked if the Minister could give us some report in terms of the success of the program over the last summer . MR . MacMASTER : I could forward a review of the program at a later date.

As I've outline d befo re , we are reviewin g all the programs and I can forward them across for those that are of interest and pretty logically and geographically , the member is certainly interested in this one and I' 11 assure him that upon comple tion of the review of the entire program , I will forward it personally to him. MR . McBRYDE : Mr . Chairperso n, I wonder if the Minister , though , could still give us some prelim inary uncompleted review at this time in terms of how the program went over the last year . And while I'm on my feet , Mr .

Chairperson, I wou ld ask the Minister , since we are deal ing with North lands funding under this section, if he has consulted with his coll eague, the Minister of Northern Affa irs , as he committed himself to do bef ore , to see if the annual review of the Northlands is available to the House at this time? MR .

MacMASTER : I've been assured that the Minister of Northern Affairs will be discussing Northlands as he comes into it and he 'll be talking about , hopefu lly , and I don't want to put words in his mouth , but he certainly in general, if not specific terms, will be outlining to the members opposite what he hopes to negotiate in upcoming years in that type of program. MR . McBRYDE : Mr .

Chairman, I don't know if the Minister 's memory is fai ling him but when we previously met I asked him if in fact he would check with the Minister of Northern Affairs whether the annual review has been completed on the North lands Agreement because many items within this Minister 's department relate to that agreement and whether the Minister has had a chance to check with the Minister of Northern Affai rs. Mr .

Chairman, perhaps the Minister of Northern Affairs could tell us himself about this item since it 's his Manitoba Northlands Agreement that we 're deal ing with , whether the review of programs under the Northlands Agreement have been completed and whether it will be available to members of the House as we 're dealing with these items . - lll6 -

Tuesday , 1 8 March , 1980 MR . MacMASTER : I can only say, Mr . Chairman, that the Minister responsible for the Northlands Agreem ent , as I was last year , is responsible for the overall amounts. Individual departments, and I've outl ined this to the member before , are responsible for diff erent pieces of it . Northlands money comes up under a variety of departments; mine is one.

I have assured the member that certainly there is absolutely no hesitation in our forwarding to him a review of that particular portion and, in fa ct , I think as I said before , other Northland chunks on the way through our Estimates. I'm prepared to share the information on that . I think it's worthy of all people knowing ju st how well the money is being spent and how successful the programs are . I have no hesitation in sharing the review of the portions I'm resposible fo r.

The Minister of Northern Affair s, either during question period or during his Estimate s, I'm sure , will enlarge on what they are doing about the total Northern Affairs Agreem ent . MR . McBRYDE : Mr . Chairpe rson, last year when the Minister was responsible he tabled in this House two books, and I forget the exact title - one was the Annual Review of the Northlands Agreement for that year and I think the other was an Annual Review Community by Community , or the community-by- community effects of the Northlands Agreem ent . One is in a green cover and one is in a blue cover .

What I asked the Minister to check the other day and he said he would and apparently he hasn't , whether or not those reports have been completed for the past year . I wonder if he knows if those reports - maybe they're not being done any more , I don't know - are those reports going to be done for the past year and if so, are they completed? MR .

MacMASTER : Well , for the Minister of Northern Affairs to fi le a complete report on all the programming, that wou ld be I would say - with the danger of us ing the word "i mpossible" - virtu ally impossible at this particular moment, because we haven't quite fin alized our reports on our portion. Now, maybe we're the last departm ent within the entire government to do that , I don't know. Maybe we would be the fi rst ones to forward them to the Minister . But that's all I can tell the member at this time . MR . McBRYDE : Yes , Mr . Chairman, I'm assuming then that the Minister didn't check with his colleague .

Last year the Annual Reports were tabled in March; and my question was very simple , are those reports completed yet by the Department of Northern Af fairs? In fa ct, it's a joint report issued by DREE and the co-ordinators of the Department of Northern Af fair s, whether that report is available to us yet , whether it is completed yet and I don't think it's that complicated a questio n. MR . SPEAKER : The Honourable Minister of Northern Affai rs. HON . DOUG GOURLAY (Swan River ): Yes, the reports that the Member for The Pas is requesting , I will be tabl ing those at the time of my Estimates.

They should be ready by then. MR . McBRYDE : Mr . Chairman, I'm not sure now because the Minister added his comments at the end, if they're ready by then implies that they are not ready yet . And , Mr . Chairman, if those reports are ready when we' re still considering North lands item under Other Departments besides his own , I wonder if he wou ld table those review s because they'll help us more effectiv ely and more efficiently to do our job in terms of all the departments that have programs under the Northlands Agreement . MR .

GOURLAY : Yes , I can check on that and if they are available I'll table them sooner. MR . CHAIRMAN: (c) --pass; (d) --pass; (2) --pass.

(3) Selkirk Training Plant (

a) Salarie s. The Honourable Minister . - 1117 -

Tuesday , 18 March , 1980 MR. MacMASTER : Just one second , Mr. Chairman. Last year , Mr. Chairman, there were 11 SMYs in this particular operation. During the course of the year one transferred out and 10 transferred in, so now we are talking about 20 SMYs. These were term positions that were transferred in from the Parks Branch of the Departm ent of Natural Re sources . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Lac du Bonnet. MR. USKIW : Mr. Chairman, I wou ld like to have the Minister tell us what the program is in the plant. It seems to me that we ought to know more than ju st the staff complement of the plant.

I would li ke to know what the operation is all about, not only the staffin g of it but what are they doing , how many trainees, how many trained staff that are on the payroll, what their respective functions are, and what is the area of the market for the production? MR. MacMASTER : The object ives are to facili tate deve lopment of special needs individuals to enable them to enter the workforce, or to pursue further training.

They produce a wi de variety of wood and metal items for Manitoba parks , and we 've been assured - that 's the second quest ion, I think the member asked - is there a market for it , and the answer is yes. The plant operates in conjunction with Red River Community College , Canadian Manpower provides an initial two month Industrial Life Ski lls Program, foll owed by four to five months of on-the-job training, and all items are purchased by the Manitoba Parks. The number of trainees per course are 24 , and the number of courses per yea r are four.

The number of the trainees at the beginning of the last fiscal year was 45 ; the number of trainees that were accepted to the program during the course of the year were 76 , that 's an additional 76 ; the number of trai nees who withdrew for their own reasons was 41 ; the number of trainees who were dismissed was one ; the number of trainees who went on to other employm ent was 24 ; the number of trainees who went on to additional training was two ; the number of trainees that are presently in the program , Mr. Chairman, is 53. I'm not sure if I covered all the questions the member wanted , I think it 's close.

MR. USKIW : Yes , Mr. Chairman, I would like to know from the Minister ju st what the government's object ives are wi th respect to the continued operation of this plant or otherwise. What is the policy position of the government as to the longevity of this operation? Is it the intent of the government to continue the training facili ty at Selkirk? Is it the intent of the government to wind it down and eventually sell the asset? What are the obj ectives of the government with respect to the plant, Mr. Chairman? MR.

MacMASTER : Well , there 's no thought in my mind, certainly today, or I can't foresee one of winding the particula r operation down, so I think the member should feel relieved if that was the reasoning for his quest ioning, if he had some fear that we were prepare d to wind it down for any reason, shape or form. There are no thoughts in my mind of doing that. We think it 's serving a valuable need , it 's introducing people to the work habit , if you wish, it 's introducing them to an environment that some of those particular people were not familiar with before.

We think it 's introductory to the point where it 's permitting them to get on their feet and get out and follow up and get other jobs. The thing that has not been in place, and we 're going to be implem enting that, it 's in the stage of verbage at the moment , we 've been tal king about it , but we want an ongoing review of where the cl ientele are going, very similar to what good AFM centres do throughout the province. They can tell you a year or two later where the clients were that went through their establishment , and that's the kind of system that I'm talking to my staff about.

They concur that this is really something we want to know three years from now, four years from now, how successful we 've really been. MR. USKIW : Mr. Chairman, I was hoping that the Minister would be able to give us some statistical analysis on what happens and what has happened to people that have been trai ned by that facility , in terms of gett ing plac ements in the private sector job area. Is there a foll ow-up that would indicate to us, or - lll8 -

Tue sday, 18 March , 1980 analysis of a fo llow-up that wou ld indicate to us that a fair perc entage of the trainees graduating from that plant are indeed finding their way into the main stream of our labour market , or the workforc e. Are they securing jo b opportun ities outside of a shelte red area, such as this one? Because this is, indeed, the thrust of this plan , Mr . Chairman, and if it is not meeting those objectiv es, then we have to review whether or not we should make some changes in the operation in order that those obj ectives be real ize d . MR .

MacMASTER : Wel l , I was just candid enough and honest enough with the Member for Lac du Bonnet to tell him exactly the things that he 's asking are not in plac e. And, again, I was candid enough with him to tell him that that's some thing that we have discussed ourselve s. It 's a process that I want to establish so that I can give him something a year from now, hopefully , God willing and the voters, fi ve years from now if I'm still here . That right at the moment, it 's only 24 that we 're positive of that have other employment and two that are going on for future training . That isn 't satisfactory to me .

I expe ct, from the member 's questioning , it 's not satisfac tory to him and I can only say to him that this time next year we 'll have a better handle on where people are going and what has been happening . There is no history that we can determine , because this question was asked by myself , well , what is the history of the people that are passing through this establi shment; have we any idea where they are and how well off them are , or what problems they 're having, if any, or how successful they are in life? Those questions couldn 't be answered ; I can't answer them today. MR .

USKIW : Well I recognize, Mr . Chairman, that if the Minister hasn't had the capacity to do that kind of review that he obviously can't answer the qu estion . A way back in 1977 , Mr . Chairman, we had some discussions; I had dis cussions as Minister responsible for the plant with the staff there , with the view of setting up an analysis capacity so that we indeed would satisfy ourselves as to whether or the not the obj ectives of the program are being me t. That was the one thrust that we had hoped that we would put in place very shortly . It is two years later , Mr .

Chairman, and obviously we still don't have that capacity and I would hope that the Minister can assure us that is something that isn't going to be held back because of some sort of spending restraints by his government . I wo uld hope that he 's in a position to tell this House that as soon as he can fi nd the bodies to do this for him, that he would get with it and try to determine whether or not we are spending our dollars wisely in this area. The other aspect of it , Mr . Chairman, is whether there is any expectat ion on the part of the Minister and the government to provide in-house permanent employ ment .

We had also discussed the idea and the feasi bility of expanding the operations of the plant so that in those areas where we are importing products into Manitoba that perhaps we might have a secondary component to the pl ant which would be the production end, the assembly line end, that wou ld not be a training program but wou ld be an opportunity for the trainees to graduate, too, and stay in the plant as permanent employees if they so desired , if they didn't want to go into the market for other job opportunitie s. And only to the extent , Mr .

Chairman, that we would not be displacing other employees in Manitoba producing the same goods were we prepared to look at that. It seems to me that it 's very obvious , Mr . Chairman, that there are a tremen dous number of products imported into this province, furniture products, from Ontario and particularly from Quebec , and it seems to me that it would make a lot of sense to be able to add a production component to this plant that would not only supply the Parks Branch but that would make products available to the general market , those products that are now imported into this province.

It seems to me that 's the logical thing to do with respect to this kind of a facili ty . I wou ld hope the Minister would take a look at that and at least not take a phi losophical position that he doesn't want to get involved in any ki nd of entre preneurial operation beyond a training program because I think , Mr . Chairman, we discussed the other day the very lack of opportunity for a great number of our people who are in the category of the chronically unemployed . And I think here 's an opportunity for the government to do something in a permanent way for that - 1119 -

Tuesday , 18 March, 1980 elem ent of our society without disturbing unduly other sectors of the economy, Mr. Chairman, and I would hope the Minister would take notice of those points and hopef ully respond in a positive vein, Mr . Chairman. MR . MacMAST ER : Well the first positive thing is a repetition of what I said , that we have to put in place a system to review, first , the peop le , secondly the program and certainly , as the Member for Lac du Bonnet has said, the dolla r value of what 's happen ing there . That process has to be put in place.

Maybe the Member for Lac du Bonnet talked about it or thought he talked about it or thought he had something started but , to the best of my knowledge , it 's not in place, and I'm sure he shares wit h me the desire to have that system in place. That's my prime concern. The other is to assure ourselves that the training component of that operation is run to the fullest and to the be st of its ability . And as far as future expansion goes, I would ju st take that under consideration at the particula r moment . MR .

USKIW : Yes, could the Minister advise us whether or not the plant is subsidize d in any way , and by how mu ch, or whether the Parks Branch is, through its purchases , making the plant viable without any other subsidy , Mr . Chairman. MR . MacMAST ER : If the member wou ld li ke , I could go in to some depth as to reviewing tendering procedure for parks equi pment and see in fact whether the government is paying more than what might be the tendered pric e; that could then be construed qui te logically to be a subsi dy .

If he wants that particular point pursued , I could assure him that I could do that and get back to him at a later date . The only other speci fic subsidy in place to day, not disregarding ju st the few words I've said for a moment , is $9 0,0 00 coming from the federal government towards this particular opera tion. MR . USKIW : Well , Mr . Chairman, I think that we recognize that it 's a training fa cil ity and that there fore there is bound to be some form of input.

My only question was whether there is any input outside of the direct purchase agree ment with the Parks Branch and the moneys recovered from the government of Canada, and if there aren 't any ex ternal inputs that 's the answer that I'm looking for , Mr . Chairman. MR . DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: 3. (a )- -pass ; (b) --pass ; (c ) --pass ; 3. --pass . 4. Canada-Manitoba NORTHLANDS Agreeme nt , (

a) Salaries - the Honourable Minister. MR . MacMASTER : The New Careers - we are setting up somewhat of a new procedure wit h the New Careers program and I'd li ke to outline it , as I spelled ou t that I wou ld previously . There are going to be two application cut-off dates which will be establis hed each year . These dates will be March lst for contract consideration for the new fiscal year and Sep tember lst for in-term contracts within the fiscal year .

Having a second date each year will allow greater fle xib il ity to employers and allow for consideration of additional contracts should slippage occur during the first six months . A percentage split has been established between private, publicly funded and government department employer s. Funds for these three sources of employing bodies will initia lly be divided into one-third each . Such ratio will be periodically review ed , and could change as demands change. Some fle xibili ty is also bu ilt in to allow for situations where sufficient applications may not be received from one sector .

An Application Review Board is being establi shed, consisting of the New Careers Manager and other Manpower directors . This board will review applications sub sequent to cut-off dates and make recommendations to the Executive Diretor of the Manpower Division for approval of contracts. Such expansion of contract selectio n crite ria will be incorporated . In addition to current crite ria, two points have been added . The eventual employing organization must commit their supervi sory personnel to a brie f orientation to New Careers.

Secondly , selecti on of contracts will also be based on the needs of the labour market for skilled personnel. - 11 20 -

Tuesday , 18 March , 1980 I'd like to elaborate on both those points. We think it 's very important that an employing authority in government, private or Crown corporation or whatev er , that the people that are going to be super vis ing these New Careers people should have an orientation program established with our department, and the second, we want to look down the road as to the labour market for skilled personnel. We want to look down the road as to the ongoing viabil ity of the person being in a particular trade or prof ession.

We don't want to fi nd ourselves in the position that we are training "X" number of people in "X" classifications and find out way down the road that two or three years down the road we 1 re going to be so over-staffed that those peopl e cannot be employ ed . The length of the training program will have greater fl exibility . This length will be dependent upon a determination of the nature of the job and the needs of the trainee in becomi ng competent on the job. This should reduce the length of training in numerous areas, al lowing programmed hours to be spread furth er .

Academic training will also be directed to the needs of the job. The maximum length of the training will still be two yea rs. Staff -wise , in 197 9 we had 61 ; this year we have 60, one less than there was last year , Mr . Chairman . That 's in the south end , I'm sorry , I maybe confused things there . That is New Careers South . There is a New Careers North which I'l l deal with right after this. MR . CHAIR MAN: The Honourable Member fo r Rupertsla nd. MR . BOSTROM : Mr .

Chairman, just on that point of the Minister's la st statement , I beli eve we 're on 4.( a) , which is Canada-Manitoba Northlands Agreem ent , New Careers, 4. (

a) which I would expect is New Careers North. So has the Minister given us the information on 5.(

a) rather than 4. (

a) in this case? MR . MacMAST ER : The member is co rrect; I've got the wrong numbers in the wrong part of the province. The north is 68 and there are 68 today. MR . BOSTROM : Just to make some general comments on this sect ion, Mr . Chairman, the New Careers program, jus t to give you a bit of background , is one whi ch was developed by the New Democratic government when they were in government and it is, in my view , a program which ideally suits the cli ent group to which the program is directed .

And as you can see from the object ives of the New Careers program, and I'll jus t briefly go through them, it is to train unemployed and/or underdeveloped adults to a level of competency which enables them to obtain positions within the public and private sector ; to increase the job skills in employments of adults that are confronted with special barriers to employment and education; and to increase the number of trained personnel in fi elds where li ttle or no academic training resources exist within the province; and also to increase the number of trained individuals from a particular geographic area and provide them with competencies which allow them to deliv er necessary services to the area.

So , Mr . Chairman, this program was designed to fi t the special needs of particular groups within our society , as well as the special needs of particular geographic areas . One of those geographic areas , of course , and the one we 1 re discussing under 4. (

a) is the north, and in the north, this program is designed to be able to answer a number of problems . One is that there are necessary services that must be del ivered in the northern area. At the present time most of these services are being del ivered by people from outside the area.

That is in a remote community where there is need for teache rs, where there is need for health personnel, where there is a need for environmental protection, where there is a need for some maintenance, industrial engineer-type people , most of these positions have been fi lled in the past and largely are still fi lled by people that are brought in from southern locations. They'r e transplanted into the community . In many cases they 're just there to earn a quick dollar and le ave the community . They don't intend to make that community a home for themselves or their famili es. And meanwhile , Mr .

Chairman, the people who live in those communities are facing high levels of unemp loyment . This program was designed to deal wit h that problem and to take the people who live in the area and, as the program ou tlines, train unemployed and/or underdeveloped adults to a leve l of competency which - ll21 -

Tuesday , 18 March, 1980 enables them to obtain positions. And here are the positions. You can clearly identify the positions right in the communities . They are positions that are now fi lled by outside people who do not desire to live in that community , and there are people who desire to li ve in the community , who are li ving in the community , who are not trained to fi ll those positions. So this program can, theoretically , take the disadvantaged person, give them the training on the job for a very specif ic job which is identified to them. So it makes the training very meaning ful .

And I think that I can recommend this kind of training to the Minister in almost all areas where there is a need to take someone and give them an upgrading type of training . Many types of edu cation, Mr . Chairman, whe ther it be university or even community coll ege , are not always meaningful to the student, to the person who is taking the training , because they do not see at the end of that training a concrete job , a concrete result or benefit from taking the training .

In this case , the people who are chosen to go into the New Careers program are hand picked , and they are specifically picked to fit int o a particula r job . It 's almost like interviewing someone for the job two years in advance of them taking the job, and over the two year peri od, or a period at lea st up to two years - some training programs may be le ss they are given training to fi t into that particula r job . Some of the major corporations and even some government departments have attempted training programs of a similar nature, al though not directing their programs at disadvantaged groups .

Many corporations and/or government depart ments, government agencies, will take a student out of high school who already has a very basic foundation or education and give them a very specific training program, whether it 's in computers or accounting, or the basics of a particula r technical aspect of a business , and they will train them for that job. But Mr . Chairman, no one before the New Careers program wa s developed ever gave the underdevelo ped , uneducated - uneducated in the sense of formal education - ever gave that kind of person an opportunity to take training for a job .

Many of these jobs are not requirin g a high level of formal education , and these were the types of job s that were idenitifi ed . I notice that the Minister in his annual report ou tlined some of the types of jobs that the New Careers people have been trained for and are continuing to be trained for , such as air mechanics , la boratory technicians, dental assistants, audio-vi sual technicians, chemical abuse counsello rs, correctional office rs, ju venile counsel lors , residential child care workers, day care worker s, recreation workers and so on. Mr .

Chairman, many of these things require a human ab ili ty , which does not necessarily come from having a high formal education. Many people have been educate d through their life in many other ways than taking a formal education in the school system. And these people have just never had the opportunity to really be taken seriously to fill in a position of a para-professional level of occupa tion. And it 's the obj ective of this program to take that person and fi t them into that kind of job. I commend the government for continuing this program.

I was afraid when this government took over that , given the phi losophy of this government , that they wou ld cut this program entirely . I think that they have seen the value of the program; I think they have been converted to see the value of the program . I think that 's an example of some of the sell ing that we did while we were in government. It 's one of the legac ies of our government that we put in place programs li ke th is, which were practically impossible to remove afterwards because they were so clearly beneficial to the group that they were designed to serve . Mr .

Chairman, this is one that stands out in my mind , and I think that it stands out in Canada as an example of a kind of program which is absolutely ideally suited to assisting in the training of in dividuals for permanent , useful empl oyment . The thing I'm disappointed about, Mr . Chairman , is that this government has not seen fi t to increase the level of assistance through the New Careers program.

I believe that it 's still not at the level at which it should be becau se , as I look around northern Manitoba particula rly , I still see many of the jobs in the north fi lled by people who do not come from the north, who do not come from the communi ties that the jo bs are designed to serve . I see people working in the nursing - ll2 2 -

Tue sday, 18 March , 1980 stations . I see that the federal Department of Medical Services is having great difficulty finding people to work in the nursing stations in northern Manitoba. I see , at the same time, many people in those communities desiring to have employment who do not have employm ent , who have the intelligence and abiliti es to be able to take on those positions, but they must be given the opportunity. And Mr . Chairman , this program and other programs like this could give them that opportunity .

And as long as the government is not funding it to the adequate level that it sho uld be funded , then these individuals will continue to not have the opportunity , so that there is still much that has to be done. I would suggest to thi s Minister that the level of funding for this program is inadequate and I would say to him that if we

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	31-4-19a
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	31st 4th hansardpdf 19a.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	a41f651a5a5a9d15e9d60f4790416501f2c63bc1

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