November 20, 2001 HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY

PROCEEDINGS Vol. XLIV No. 34

The House met at 1:30 p.m.

MR. SPEAKER (Mercer): Order, please!

It is my pleasure today to welcome to our gallery ten members from the WISE

group from the District of Carbonear-Harbour Grace.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Also, in the rush to go before the camera yesterday, I am

afraid we inadvertently neglected to introduce our new page, Mr. Christopher

Hickey, to my right, a fourth-year political science student at Memorial

University.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

Statements by Members

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Bay of Islands.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. JOYCE: Mr. Speaker, I rise today to pay tribute to a very dear friend

who recently became the first female inducted into the Newfoundland and Labrador

Soccer Hall of Fame.

Joy Burt, with fourteen years of soccer experience and provincial awards,

played with the Memorial University team and was a driving force behind the

creation of the first women's soccer league in Corner Brook.

Many may remember Joy Burt for her outstanding ability in the sport of power

lifting, breaking records and representing Canada at several world

championships. However, she also has a history of involvement with soccer, being

the first female Chair of the Newfoundland and Labrador Soccer Association.

Ms Burt's achievements include Corner Brook scoring titles and Most

Valuable Player awards, Newfoundland's best female soccer player in 1970, and

a fourth-time Female Athlete of the Year for the Province of Newfoundland and

Labrador.

Mr. Speaker, Joy Burt was a pioneer for ladies soccer and is a role model for

young athletes and especially young women, and by being recognized by her

achievements, the Soccer Hall of Fame has opened its doors to many deserving

female athletes and also inspiring many young people to become involved in

sports.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

MR. JOYCE: By leave?

AN HON. MEMBER: By leave.

MR. SPEAKER: By leave.

MR. JOYCE: Joy is a Grade 5 teacher at North Shore Elementary in Meadows

and she is definitely an inspiration to her students. Her daughter, Emily, was

so proud of her mother that she completed the necessary information to have her

mother nominated.

I ask all members of the House to join with me in congratulating Joy Burt on

becoming the first female inducted into the Newfoundland and Labrador Soccer

Hall of Fame.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Placentia & St. Mary's.

MR. MANNING: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Last Wednesday evening, November 14, I had the honour of attending a very

special function in my district. The event was the Annual Employer and Supporter

Recognition Night sponsored by the Genesis Employment Corporation in partnership

with the Argentia Area Chamber of Commerce.

The Genesis Employment Corporation is a non-profit organization which seeks

and secures meaningful employment for persons with developmental disabilities.

Genesis Employment Corporation is sponsored by the Labour Market Development

Agreement and the Department of Human Resources and Employment. It was a night

filled with the highlights of another successful year of operation for the

Genesis Corporation.

Representatives of the Argentia Area Chamber of Commerce, the Department of

Human Resources and Employment, the Department of Human Resources Canada and the

Town of Placentia, along with myself, brought greetings and congratulations to

the Board of Directors for their untiring commitment to creating opportunities

for those in our society who are less fortunate than ourselves. Several

businesses, employers, supporters and co-workers were recognized for their

important role in ensuring the success of this organization.

The most important people involved, the clients themselves, were delighted

with the opportunity to show how the Genesis Corporation has played a pivotal

role in improving their standard of living. The gratitude was evident in the

comments of one of the clients, Mr. Charles O'Keefe.

An important part of the evening was the presentation of the annual Employer

Merit Award. This year's recipient was Jeremy's Redi-Chef, Placentia.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

MR. MANNING: By leave, Mr. Speaker?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: By leave.

MR. SPEAKER: By leave.

MR. MANNING: I would like to congratulate owner, Mr. Dan Meade, on the

recognition of his involvement with Genesis and to also congratulate client

Charmaine Hawco and support worker Brenda Dunphy, for a job well done.

In closing, let me congratulate the staff and Board of Directors for the

Genesis Employment Corporation on fulfilling a need in our community and their

passion and commitment to fulfilling the lives of many people with developmental

disabilities.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Burin-Placentia West.

MS M. HODDER: Mr. Speaker, I would like to bring to the attention of all

members an event which took place in Marystown this past summer. During the

month of July, approximately 1,500 athletes between the ages of ten and eighteen

took

part in the first Burin Peninsula Summer Games.

I had the privilege of attending these games and witnessing the sportsmanship

and enthusiasm of those young athletes as they represented their communities. I

was also especially touched by the enthusiasm so obviously displayed by the

Special Olympics group. These Burin Peninsula Summer Games will certainly be the

highlight of all summer activities on the Burin Peninsula as athletes and fans

come together to enjoy and participate.

The Burin Peninsula has a long and proud history of achievement in sports and

I am sure that many of these young athletes are well on their way to the Burin

Peninsula Sports Hall of Fame and to maybe other honours as well.

I would like Members on the House of Assembly to join with me in

congratulating the sponsors, organizers and athletes on the success of the first

year of the Burin Peninsula Summer Games and wish everyone well on next year's

summer games which will be held in Fortune.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi.

MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I rise today to pay tribute to a pioneer and a lifelong friend of the

Co-operative and Credit Union movement in Newfoundland and Labrador. Mr. Wilfred

George Dawe passed away at his residence in St. John's on September 9, 2001,

at the age of eighty-eight.

He was born in Carbonear in 1913 and had a remarkable career with numerous

and impressive achievements. In the mid-1930s Wilf Dawe worked at Ayre &

Sons Limited, a department store, and was a founding member of the Ayreso Credit

Union, one of the oldest in the Province. He was a founder of the Newfoundland

Protective Association of Shop and Office Employees, later becoming the Retail

Clerks Union, and was active in the early days of the federation of labour,

including on its legislative committee.

In 1941, he became president of what became the Newfoundland Co-operative

Credit Society Limited, which later formed a part of the current Newfoundland

and Labrador Credit Union. In 1950 he embarked on a career as a civil servant,

becoming the inspector of co-operatives and credit unions. In 1954 he was

appointed registrar of co-operatives and credit unions where he served until

mandatory retirement in 1978.

In 1988 his lifelong commitment to the co-operative and credit union movement

was recognized when, along with the famous Father Moses Coady of Antigonish,

Wilf Dawe was given the distinguished co-operator award by the Atlantic Council

of Co-operatives. Wilf Dawe's dedication to the principles of co-operation

inspired many people and he deserves full recognition by the House of Assembly.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Torngat Mountains.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. ANDERSEN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

On the third weekend of October I had the opportunity to travel with a bunch

of Aboriginal youth in the Province to attend an Aboriginal Youth Conference, in

Edmonton. Aboriginal youth from every province, country, and territory attended.

Our youth was represented by youth from the Federation of Indians, the Mtis,

Inuit, and the Innu.

Mr. Speaker, it was a pleasure to see our students stand before a microphone

where there were over 400 delegates, and talk about their goals and their

problems in such a manner that would certainly make any member or any person in

this Province proud. It has been said that our youth are among the best in the

Province, in this country, and the world. Mr. Speaker, at this Aboriginal Youth

Conference our youth did exactly that. They proved to us that they are among the

best.

Thank you.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: We will take one more.

The hon. the Member for Baie Verte.

MR. SHELLEY: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

I rise today to offer my condolences to the family of the late Mayor Claude

Ward, who passed away suddenly Monday morning, November 19.

Claude was a very active member of his community. He served for twenty years

on the municipal council, twelve of those as mayor. As a matter of fact, this

fall he returned as mayor again.

Mr. Speaker, for anybody in this House who has dealt with Mr. Ward - I know

many ministers and members in this House know him quite well - know of his

forthright attitude on approaching issues. As the member for the district, over

the years I have certainly had opposing views and agreeing views with Mr. Ward.

I can tell you that we did not always agree but I can say that Mr. Ward, no

matter what the issue, always had the Town of La Scie at heart.

Recalling one of his prouder moments today - and it was suggested that I

recall this on behalf of one of his brothers - is the day that the La Scie Jets

won the Herder Memorial Hockey Championship. How proud he was the day that we

paraded in through the Town of La Scie and into the stadium. That is the way I

will always remember Claude Ward, as a very proud mayor of that particular

community.

Today, Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the House to pass on the condolences

to his family: to his wife, Lorraine; his sons, Roy, Neil, Douglas and Terry; to

his daughters, Lynette, Taffie, Michelle; and his brothers, relatives and many

people on the Baie Verte Peninsula as well as the Community of La Scie.

Thank you.

Statements by Ministers

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance and President of Treasury

Board.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to provide this House with a

mid-year report on the economic and financial position of the Province of

Newfoundland and Labrador.

In the Budget Speech last March, I acknowledged that the Province would be

facing different economic and fiscal realities than those of recent years.

Government recognized that a slowing national economy would impact on federal

transfers and own tax revenues, and the Budget reflected those changing

circumstances.

Economic Update: Mr. Speaker, economic forecasts now project a significant

slowdown in the United States and Canada for the last half of 2001 due to

weakness in the manufacturing and information technology sectors, reduced

consumer confidence and spending, and weak financial markets.

The provincial economy is still expected to experience growth in 2001,

however, we will not be immune to the effects of a global economic slowdown. We

cannot function or think of ourselves in isolation in light of our dependence on

the federal government for a substantial portion of our revenue as well as our

dependence on the U.S. economy as our major export partner. Real GDP, which had

been forecast to grow at an annual rate of 2 per cent, is now expected to be 1.2

per cent. The impacts of the general economic slowdown and terrorist attacks

have been forecast to grow at an annual rate of 2.0 per cent is now expected to

be 1.2 per cent. The impacts of the general economic slowdown and terrorist

attacks have been factored into the revised forecast.

The economic downturn has resulted in a weaker than expected market demand

and lower prices for key provincial exports such as iron ore, newsprint, and

fish products. Lumber exports will remain steady as expected.

Crude oil production from Hibernia is expected to be in line with the Budget

forecast of 53 million barrels. Proponents for the Terra Nova project indicate

that production should begin by the end of this year.

Mr. Speaker, the impacts of the economic downturn have been compounded by the

September 11 terrorist attacks. This is expected to further impact on

export-oriented industries such as the fishery, newsprint, and mining for the

first half of 2002.

Weakness in export markets have not yet had an effect on employment, housing

starts or retail trade in Newfoundland and Labrador. Generally speaking, there

is a lag between changes in export markets and changes in local economic

indicators.

Employment is on track to reach a record high of 211,000, surpassing the 1990

level of 207,400, and the unemployment rate, Mr. Speaker, should drop to16.4 per

cent, the lowest since 1989.

Real disposable income is expected to grow by 2.8 per cent, which should help

boost consumer confidence.

Mr. Speaker, while consumer activity declined somewhat in the days following

September 11, consumer confidence remains strong. For the first eight months,

retail trade is up by more that 8 per cent over the same period last year,

driven by strong employment growth, wage increases, tax cuts and low interest

rates. Some slowing of growth is expected in the last four months of 2001, which

will result in annual retail sales growth of about 6.5 per cent.

Housing starts through the first three quarters are up by almost 18 per cent.

Starts are expected to slow in the fourth quarter and. on an annual basis, are

expected to grow by 8.7 per cent to almost 1,600, the best performance since

As projected in this year's Budget, capital investment is expected to

decline by 3.5 per cent, due in large part to the winding up of the Terra Nova

construction project, the one-time ferry purchased by Marine Atlantic in 2000,

and the completion of several major health care facilities. Investment, however,

should remain above $3 billion for the third straight year.

Preliminary population estimates indicate a decline of about 0.6 per cent in

2001 due to continuing net out-migration. The Province's population is now

533,761, down from about 580,200 in 1993.

Fiscal Update: Mr. Speaker, the Province's fiscal position depends greatly

on federal transfers as well as our own resources. While government's

own-source revenues are on target for this fiscal year, equalization and CHST

transfers are expected to be lower. As I have previously reported, recent

estimates indicate the Province will receive $13.4 million less in federal

transfers than originally budgeted thus far. We will not know our final position

for the current year until February, when further federal estimates are

expected.

Mr. Speaker, government must continually balance pressures to spend with the

need for sound financial management.

Our health care sector is grappling now with this challenge. This year's

Budget added $50 million to the base budgets of the institutional and integrated

health boards to stabilize board funding and allow them to operate within

balanced budgets. This funding was on top of what government provided for

inflation, funding for reclassification of health professionals, and on top of

negotiated salary increases for public sector unions. Yet, as we have seen, the

additional funding did not forestall operating deficits for many of those

boards. We are now working with those boards to deal with these deficits.

Mr. Speaker, in the last six years, government has increased health care

spending by 38 per cent, an investment of $381 million. We cannot maintain this

level of unprecedented growth in funding given our Province's finite

resources. In fact, no government could ever sustain this kind of growth, even

those with much greater fiscal capacity than our own.

Collective agreements with our public sector unions also put some pressure on

our Treasury. These agreements included a 15 per cent wage increase over three

years. The additional cost associated with the public service salary increase

this fiscal year will be around $30 million.

Government will honor the negotiated public sector wage increases. Public

servants deserve the increase and government is proud of this agreement.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Mr. Speaker, as a result of the additional cost of the

public service salary increase, the drop in federal transfers due to a slowing

economy, as well as additional costs associated with servicing foreign currency

debt, we now expect an $80 million deficit this fiscal year, up from the $30

million originally budgeted. Our final fiscal position will depend on

maintaining effective control of our expenditures and our final revenue

position, which we will assess in February.

We have undertaken certain measures to curb our deficit situation, including

the implementation of a freeze on non-essential hiring and travel. In addition,

government announced it would defer the third year of its personal income tax

reduction strategy. As we said when we announced the initiative, reductions in

personal income tax would be assessed annually. We assessed it annually and we

concurred we would only do this if the Province could afford it.

Even though the third year of our program is being deferred, it is important

for taxpayers to realize that there are continued savings as a result of the

previous two years of tax reduction measures. Cumulative savings from provincial

and federal tax reductions since the year 2000 will return $321 million to the

provincial economy next year: $198 million which is from provincial measures,

and $123 million through federal measures, Mr. Speaker.

Notwithstanding these responsible measures, we recognize that government is

in a difficult position leading into years 2002-2003. We are in the process of

reviewing options to address the challenges that are ahead of us as we prepare

our next Budget.

Mr. Speaker, the global economic situation continues to be volatile and it is

being monitored very closely. The recovery, anticipated in the second half of

2002, should allow production in export-oriented industries to recover.

Private sector forecasters predict real GDP growth for Newfoundland and

Labrador to be at 4.5 per cent for 2002. This is consistent with our view and

will mark the fourth year of strong growth since 1997.

Growth in 2002 will be concentrated in the oil industry. The combined

production from Hibernia and Terra Nova should increase. We expect White Rose

construction to begin, pending government approval, and offshore exploration

should increase.

Voisey's Bay and the Lower Churchill are not factored into this forecast

for 2002. Development of these projects would represent an incremental benefit

to our Province's economy.

Overall, Mr. Speaker, the economy of the Province is more diversified now

than at any point in our recent history. We believe consumer confidence and

spending will remain strong, driven by gains in employment, new major project

activity, increased capital investment and wage gains. Retail sales growth is

expected to be somewhat lower than in recent years.

Employment growth of 0.7 per cent is projected for next year. Growth will be

restrained by the winding down of construction activity related to the Terra

Nova project and the impacts of the global economic slowdown.

Net out-migration will continue to decline in 2002, as it has for the past

three years, slowing the rate of decline in the Province's population. Next

year, however, the number of deaths in our Province is expected to exceed the

number of births for the first time in our history, and this will contribute to

a 2002 population decline in the range of 0.3-0.4 per cent.

In conclusion, Mr. Speaker, it is clear that the Province is facing

uncertainty heading into 2002.

We have taken appropriate actions to address our deficit situation this year.

Government spending as an economic stimulus is not the answer to the short-term

economic uncertainty; it will only add to any uncertainty. Pervious tax cuts

will continue to benefit the Newfoundland and Labrador economy, as will our

continued commitment to sound fiscal management.

Mr. Speaker, we will continue to advise the people of the Province, as we

have thus far, of any further new information on the Province's financial and

economic position as it becomes available.

Indeed, Mr. Speaker, government will again be seeking the views and advice of

the people of our Province in how to best respond to the challenges ahead. I

will be announcing soon the details of our pre-Budget consultations, which will

be held in the coming weeks and months.

Government will continue to be responsible in how we manage the finances of

this Province as we prepare our Budget for 2002.

Mr. Speaker, we are proud of our Province, we are proud of our governance,

and we will proudly continue our fiscal prudence.

Thank you very much.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Ferryland.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The minister makes reference to - her projections are off on growth for the

Province, down to 1.2 per cent. I think the minister is still - in the budget

she presented back in March - counting a little high. We may see a 1 per cent,

or even slightly less than 1 per cent. She has to keep in mind that 60 per cent

of our growth increase last year in GDP came from Hibernia. That is 60 per cent

of our growth increase. We are expecting lower oil prices to occur and that

should significantly impact in a reduction, accordingly, in GDP.

The minister has indicated here that - as the public probably knows full

well, that the Terra Nova is not going to come on stream until the end of the

year. The minister further indicated in the statement here that the September 11

terrorist attack is going to have an impact. I wish, when we are dealing with

almost a $4 billion expenditure, that she would get on the same wavelength with

the Premier of our Province.

The Premier said back in late October: Newfoundland's economy should not be

adversely affected by terrorist attacks. It goes on to say: Grimes says he doesn't

think the downturn, that is predicted elsewhere, will occur here. I wish the

Premier of our Province and the minister, who is responsible for $4 billion in

our economy, would get together and show the proper direction that we should be

moving in, or at least say the same thing.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SULLIVAN: We all know there is going to be a lag in our Province in

growth. This lag is not only going to help us marginally, in the remaining

quarters of this year, the lag in the downturn in the economy is going to impact

us more significantly next year because it is going to be later before we come

out of that lag and the economy starts to rebound again.

The minister makes reference to an $80 million deficit. We know that $80

million deficit comes from a $30.5 million budget deficit that was brought down

in March, and one month later, after that Budget, the minister presided over $30

million in public sector increases when she knew that when she budgeted at the

time - when the Budget came down you should budget for a worst-case scenario,

not a best case scenario. She budgeted for 3 per cent when she should have

budgeted for 5 per cent, and give the people the truth upfront in the Budget.

Therefore, we are stuck with $30 million that this minister did not allocate in

this Budget. Now we have to feel pain over a short period that could have spread

over a long period and have much less impact in a long term than in a short

term. That is over $60 million.

The equalization shortfall that we are going to get is over $13 million

because 50 per cent of our debt approximately is in foreign currency, U.S., and

other currency; Swiss, franc and the Japanese yen. We are going to find that the

devalued Canadian dollar is contributing another $7 million basically in extra

costs. So that is over $80 million. What the minister is not telling us here

today is that the health boards in our Province are over budget $20 million; $18

million in institutional boards; and an estimated $6 million to $7 million in

community health boards. They cannot meet the services on the money that

government gave them, and they are asked to cut. They are being told by some

boards that they cannot find it. We are falling millions short. They are not

also telling us that the accumulated debt, or deficit, over the past few years

is $80 million. Boards are even starting to go out and convert that into

long-term debt that requires more interest payments, more financing, less money

for services, which means longer waiting lists, more pain and suffering by the

people in our Province as a result. That is not prudent and responsible

management of our economy, that is imprudent and fiscal mismanagement of the

affairs of our Province.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SULLIVAN: The minister has indicated that we expect a 4.5 per cent

growth next year. If you stay on target for a 4.5 per cent, then you will fall

short. You have to be realistic, I say to the minister, in your projections. The

IMF is telling us now that Canada's growth is going to go from 2.5 per cent

next year down to 0.8 per cent. I think we should budget on a conservative

basis. We should not go on a whim and a prayer, that the economy is going to get

better. Now we find we have a big hole to fill in the dyke here and it cannot be

done by ordinary means.

The minister said: our economy "...is more diversified than at any point

in our recent history." I say to the minister, we are more dependent on

primary commodity exports than we ever were in our history before. That is where

the growth is occurring. It might be more primary export commodities but they

are still primary and therefore, we are more dependent on it than ever before.

We haven't diversified the economy. Could someone tell me where we are seeing

the diversified economy in this Province for this administration? Because, I

have not seen it.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. SULLIVAN: No, the sky is not falling but we have $100 million to deal

with this year.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) health care.

MR. SULLIVAN: Mr. Speaker, I ask for protection from people here, and an

opportunity to have my response. I have limited time.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. SULLIVAN: On top of what this government has done, besides the almost

$200 million she is talking about, this year we have spent - and will be

spending before the end of the year - $196.8 million in deferred revenues that

were collected last year and not used because it would have shown a surplus and

carried to this year. We have to find in next year's budget $196.8 million,

plus another $100 million - that is $300 million - and an estimated $80 million

to $90 million for other public sector increases. We are in the $400 million

range now, which we have to find to be able to produce a balanced budget in this

Province.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. SULLIVAN: To me, that is far from fiscal and prudent management of

our Province.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

Does the member have leave?

MR. SULLIVAN: Leave to finish my response?

AN HON. MEMBER: No leave.

MR. SPEAKER: No leave, I am sorry.

MR. SULLIVAN: Mr. Speaker, could we find out who denied leave because I

heard someone saying I have leave?

MR. SPEAKER: Does the member have leave to continue?

AN HON. MEMBER: By leave.

MR. SPEAKER: By leave.

MR. SULLIVAN: Four hundred million to find; the sky is falling. The sky

is falling, I say to the minister.

We have a minister who is at the steering wheel of this Province and she has

put it on automatic pilot. She has put it on automatic pilot, because we are

making short-term decisions. This government has taken $160 million that we

could have received under Term 29 - $8 million a year for $20 years. They spent

that $130 million upfront in three years. They took $55 million on a South Coast

ferry service, spent it all, and now we have to pay for that. They have taken

$350 million out of the Trans-Labrador Highway, a very needed highway, in

exchange for the ferry service. We still have to provide a very great service.

What they have done in this Province is they have taken short-term solutions to

long-term problems, and that is the fix we are in today in this Province, Mr.

Speaker. It is about time someone took control of the wheel and put it back

there to get this Province back on the road to recovery.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi.

MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I want to respond briefly to the minister's financial statement. First of

all, let me say that I agree with her and not the Premier, that we cannot really

be in isolation of the economic effects of what is happening in Canada and the

rest of the world, but we are not an isolated country so I agree with her on

that. I cannot disagree with her on the birth rate or the death rate. These are

matters of fact, but what disturbs me about what the minister said here today

when she patted her government on the back for having an unemployment rate of 16

per cent, she did not talk about the fact that this means, when we have a much

lower unemployment rate in St. John's and the capital area, that we end up

with a very much higher unemployment rate in areas of rural Newfoundland, two

and three times that amount, Mr. Speaker, that this government has nothing to be

proud about, and has done nothing to address in this fiscal statement.

Mr. Speaker, the other thing that disturbs me about what the minister said

today when she is talking about how we have addressed, and they have addressed,

they say, the fiscal position and the budgetary position of the Province. It is

what she is not saying; because while we were being delivered in our offices

this fiscal statement of the minister, which says nothing about the following

issue, we were receiving telephone calls from employees saying they received

layoff notices this morning at 10:00 in Works, Services and Transportation,

indicating that there are layoffs across the Province in the Department of

Works, Services and Transportation of people who have never been laid off in

twenty years.

What I want to know, Mr. Speaker, is why the minister, in rising in her seat

today to talk about the financial situation of the Province and the budget

measures being taken, there is not mention of that. What else is she hiding from

the people of Newfoundland and Labrador? What else is this minister and this

government hiding about measure that are being taken within government this very

day, on the same day that we are receiving a financial statement? Who is telling

the people of Newfoundland the whole truth here today? That is what disturbs me

about this financial statement, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health and Community Services.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MS BETTNEY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I am pleased to rise in the House today to provide my colleagues with an

update on the series of regional health forums which I held throughout the

Province during October.

As my colleagues are aware, since September government has engaged in the

most extensive consultation process ever undertaken in this Province on our

health and community services system. The purpose of this consultation is to

reach a consensus on the key principles which will guide the decision-making on

the future of the health system in this Province.

Following the release of a Province-wide discussion document entitled Reaching

Consensus and Planning Ahead, I co-chaired with the regional Strategic

Social Planning Committees seven regional forums throughout the Province. At

these forums, we brought together approximately 400 health professionals,

municipal leaders, community leaders, community service group representatives,

advocates and so on. Their input on the strategic health issues facing the

Province and the major health planning areas has been invaluable.

Mr. Speaker, I will not speak in detail today on the views which came forward

during these forums; however, I will note some key areas:

First of all, there is overwhelming support for greater attention on health

promotion and on the prevention of illness;

There is widespread consensus that the primary health care system needs to be

changed in order to ensure better access to basic health and community services;

and

There is strong consensus that quality' needs to be maintained.

And the one message that underpinned all other issues discussed in this phase

of the consultation was that indeed there is a need for fundamental change in

our health system. People recognize that we cannot continue as we are, running

deficits year after year. Nor can we continue to put more money into the system

- frankly, this Province just does not have the resources to do so.

While people want the federal government to contribute more to health

funding, participants rejected having the Province raise taxes, borrow, or take

money from elsewhere in government. With forty-four cents of every dollar that

government spends on programs and services going into the health system, there

is a realization that we have to live within our means - that we can have a

quality health system that will meet the needs of the people of this Province

within our existing fiscal framework.

Mr. Speaker, this government faces many challenges in delivering the kind of

health and community services and programs that the people of this Proline

expect and demand. This is despite the tremendous amount of financial resources

that government continues to invest into the health system. Approximately

one-third, as the Minister of Finance has indicated, of this Province's global

budget is spent on health and community services. In real terms, $1.4 billion of

taxpayers' money is spent on health.

Rising costs, high public expectations, and recruitment and retention of

health professionals are among those challenges which we share with other

jurisdictions from all across this country. Not the least of these challenges is

financial sustainability.

We are now facing the daunting task of improving our health system - making

it one that meets the needs of the people of this Province - and accomplishing

that within our current resources.

Of course, we have and will continue to make sure our voice is heard with the

other provinces in asking the federal government to return its investment into

health to 1994 levels, along with an appropriate escalator. Yet, while we know

we need more funding from the federal level, we also know that money is not the

only answer.

Mr. Speaker, next week, on November 27 and 28, I will bring together more

stakeholders and representatives of this Province to take this consultation one

step further. And I might indicate that I have extended an invitation to my

colleagues, Mr. Jack Harris, the Leader of the NDP, and the two health critics,

Ms Sheila Osborne and Mr. Ross Wiseman, to join me at this provincial forum, to

also be able to take

part in this and hear what has to be said.

Based on what I have heard throughout the regional forums, I look forward to

a very productive session in which we will achieve a consensus on what the

cornerstone of our heath system will be. It will be from those cornerstones that

we will build a new model of health delivery.

It is our hope this model will ensure the people of this Province have access

to appropriate, affordable, quality health programs and services. I look forward

to the completion of this consultation process and proceeding to a strategic

health plan for our Province.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Trinity North.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. ROSS WISEMAN: Mr. Speaker, I want to acknowledge the use of the word

extensive in the minister's statement, because it was the most extensive

invitation list that ever existed in the Province. I am not sure, Mr. Speaker,

how we can say that we have had extensive consultation when it was by invitation

only, it was a very restrictive process.

I want to pick a couple of words from the minister's statement, Mr.

Speaker. The use of the word consensus: If we look at how those forums were

structured, they were very structured, focused on twenty pre-orchestrated

questions. At any given time we only have about 115 to 120 people bringing

consensus around either one of those questions and there are 530,000 people in

the Province. So are we going to have 115 to 120 people speaking on behalf of

over 500,000 people in this Province?

Mr. Speaker, I would agree that primary health care is the cornerstone of our

system, but when we start talking about primary care reform and we start talking

about how we are going to do that and building consensus, why is it that the

minister has a ministerial appointed committee looking at primary care? There is

no consultation around primary care, and primary health care is fundamental to

every single person in this Province. That is very fundamental.

There is one other key thing, Mr. Speaker. I want to just read a portion of

the minister's statement where she says, "that we can have a quality

health system that will meet the needs of the people of this Province within our

existing fiscal framework."

Is the minister suggesting that the existing fiscal framework that includes

an operating deficit this year of somewhere in the range of $20 million, is she

talking about the fiscal reality that says health boards have accumulated

deficits and have long-term debts somewhere in the range of $80 million to $90

million, is that the reality?

The reality, Mr. Speaker, is that if we had true public consultation -

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

Could we listen to the member?

MR. ROSS WISEMAN: If we had true public consultation, what the minister

would have been told is the same thing that Vision Research found out when they

did a poll of Newfoundlanders on November 10-11.

Here is what 84.3 per cent of Newfoundlanders said on November 10-11: that

they were very concerned with the integrity of the health system when you can

take $18 million out.

Is that the fiscal reality that we are taking about, and is that living

within our means?

Mr. Speaker, there is one other thing about which I am glad to see the

minister has finally changed her mind. The minister has finally said that

recruitment and retention of physicians is a challenge; because last week this

government was running newspaper ads saying we had stability in our medical

community. What she did not tell them was that we had a 35 per cent turnover of

physicians in the last five years. That is what she did not tell people.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

MR. ROSS WISEMAN: By leave, Mr. Speaker?

MR. SPEAKER: Does the hon. member have leave?

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

If this debate is to continue, I would suggest that the members on both sides

of the House pay attention to what is being said by the speakers.

The hon. the Member for Trinity North, by leave.

MR. ROSS WISEMAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I will just conclude, Mr. Speaker, by suggesting that if the minister purely

wants to get some solid input from the people of this Province, she needs to

really open up the consultation process beyond a select few.

I would agree that primary care is the cornerstone of the health care system

in this Province, and purely that is: every single person in the Province will

access primary care. We may not access other levels but we will access primary

care, Mr. Speaker.

If the minister really wants to know what people think, take the consultation

process out into all the nooks and crannies of this Province and find out what

the people are really saying when they cannot get the access to health services

and they have to travel long distances, stay overnight, long waiting lists for

physicians, and cannot get much-needed medical attention. If she wants to get

that message, take it outside of seven communities and extend the invitation to

530,000 people.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi.

MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The health care forums that were held by the Minister of Health and Community

Services are not something to which we can object. To have consultation

throughout Newfoundland and Labrador is a good thing, but these particular

consultation have been criticized as being by invitation only, in that only

certain people whom the minister wished to invite were invited. Others had to

seek invitations to be able to get to come. They had the element of being a

consultation amongst the elites, and a lot of people felt that they were left

out of these consultations. I do not want to criticize the minister for

consulting, but the form of consultation left a lot of people out.

One of the other problems that I saw with it, Mr. Speaker, was that although

the minister's documentation urged those involved in the consultation not to

have any hidden agendas, what I saw in the questions that were being asked in

the documents that were provided was a little bit of a hidden agenda of the

minister's own. What I am worried about, Mr. Speaker, is that the minister may

have an agenda to put forth the idea of user fees for health care in this

Province.

I want to say here and now that if that is on the minister's agenda, they

are going to be fought by this party and this member as long as we possibly can.

Mr. Speaker, we asked about the problems in health care. We know there are

limits on the amount of money. When I asked yesterday about the cuts in home

care, the minister tried to defend them, but today I am faced with a constituent

who is in St. Clare's Hospital, who cannot go home. The doctors say she needs

four hours more of home care, is medically able to be discharged, but she is

still occupying an acute care hospital bed because her department will not

provide four hours of home care which are recommended in letters by her doctors

and her therapists at St. Clare's and are not accepted by her department.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

MR. HARRIS: By leave?

MR. SPEAKER: Does the hon. member have leave?

AN HON. MEMBER: By leave.

MR. SPEAKER: By leave.

MR. HARRIS: If the minister wants to save money and run a more efficient

health care system, she will have support from me if she is going to do that by

providing better home care services and having a more efficient system, but not

by user fees on the consumers of health care in this Province.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health and Community Services.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MS BETTNEY: Mr. Speaker, I rise in the House today to recognize a very

important day, that being National Child Day.

Prior to the opening of the House this afternoon, I was pleased to

participate with children, their parents, educators and other care providers in

the lobby here, in the celebration of National Child Day.

A day such as this demands that we take a moment away from other pressing

issues, to celebrate the importance of children and to remind ourselves of their

value and rights as individuals.

The adoption of the U.N. Convention on the Rights of the Child was a

momentous event in our country's history and one which has had an impact on

those who work with children.

As part of the celebrations which were held earlier, the organizers took the

opportunity to highlight the variety of programs which have been designed to

meet the needs of children and their families within their communities. It is

rewarding to realize that these programs assist in ensuring the rights of

children.

Mr. Speaker, as a government we have been pleased to be able to provide

significant support to children's programs over the past several years. The

National Child Benefit Investment/Reinvestment Programs announced in 1998 have

resulted in $18 million being available annually to support children's

programs. These programs include family resource centres, increased child care

subsidies, support infant care centres at three of our high schools in the

Province, strengthen other child care services, and support community youth

networks.

Our most recent announcement regarding the Early Childhood Development

Initiatives, Stepping into the Future, will see an additional $36.6 million

invested in children's programs over the next five years.

These programs, likewise, include additions to our family resource centre

structures, child care services, establishing early literacy and transition to

school programs, early intervention services including autism, and income

support initiatives. In the very near future I will be providing further details

on how we will invest $5.2 million through this initiative this year.

These programs are significant; yet, they are not able to provide all that

children and families need in this Province. This can only be accomplished

through effective partnerships with the community and we look forward to

continuing the existing partnerships we have and establishing others.

This government realizes the importance of having effective and appropriate

programs and services available to our children. That is why we are proceeding

in this fall sitting of the Legislature with a bill to establish the Office of

the Child Advocate. And, I am pleased that this office will further ensure the

rights and interests of children and youth are protected.

The programs which are supported by this government foster the vision of the

Strategic Social Plan. Our Strategic Social Plan recognizes that one of the best

ways to improve the long-term outcomes for people is to focus on prevention and

early intervention, particularly strengthening programs for children and

reaching out to young people.

When we celebrate children today, I would also like to acknowledge their

parents, their educators and their care providers. On a daily basis these are

the people who have the greatest influence on the social, physical and

intellectual development of our children.

Finally, in recognition of this day, I am asking my hon. colleagues to, with

me, wear a blue ribbon. They will be distributed shortly, and let us all

celebrate together children in this Province.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for St. John's West.

MS S. OSBORNE: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

Once again we have a statement that sounds really good, but still -

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MS S. OSBORNE: But still, one out of every four children in this Province

today go to school hungry. Clap for that.

The act respecting Child Care Services, which was passed almost three years

ago in this Province, mentioned children under the age of twenty-four months;

still no regulations so that these children can avail of health care. The

minister refers to the strategic social plan. She talks about the strategic

social plan recognizing that one of the best ways to improve the long-term

outcomes for people is to focus on prevention and early intervention,

strengthening programs for the very young, and reaching out early. It sounds

wonderful, but once again, no continuum of resources out into the community to

see that this plan is put in place for the children out in the community.

The minister refers to a child advocate. Now, the government has been looking

for policy - I would suggest to the minister, and to the government, to look at

this if you want to talk about a child advocate. For the record, a PC government

will immediately establish an Office of the Child Advocate. A PC government will

immediately establish a child and youth secretariat which will function within

the government as a coordinating body to integrate all services that affect the

lives of children and young people, to ensure consistency, sensitivity and

communication among the various agencies and departments working for children.

How is that for policy? A PC government will put in place a family policy grid

so that all legislation -

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MS S. OSBORNE: - so that all legislation, all regulations -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The member's time has expired.

MS S. OSBORNE: By leave, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: Does the member have leave?

AN HON. MEMBER: By leave.

MR. SPEAKER: By leave.

MS S. OSBORNE: A PC government will put in place a family policy grid

through which all legislation, all regulations, and all government policies will

have to pass; and whose basic standards they will have to meet before becoming

laws or regulations, or policy of our government. The family policy grid will

ensure our decisions advance the interests of children and strengthen the

integrity of family in our society. How is that for policy?

A PC government will affirm its commitment to family support services through

programs that support family resource centres, child care, home care, services

for the disabled, and other resources to help support the families of the

working poor. You wanted policy; that was our policy.

Thank you for finally bringing a children's advocate before the House of

Assembly for passing.

Thank you.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Labrador West.

MR. COLLINS: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

I would like to say that it is all well and good for the minister to rise

here today and recognize National Child Day. So she should, Mr. Speaker, given

the alarming statistics concerning children in this Province. Statistics such

as: one in four children are living in poverty in this Province; 40 per cent of

food bank users in this Province are children; one-quarter of our children are

going to school hungry. A recent study shows in excess of seventy schools in

this Province are in dire need of a meal program. Coupled with what I said

yesterday, about a living wage and not a minimum wage, where people can still

work hard and still remain in poverty and not be able to provide for their

families.

I have to respond also, Mr. Speaker, to the previous speaker. I do not recall

child poverty in this Province starting in 1989. I thing child poverty has been

around for a long time. It has been around for much too long. I can guarantee

you that the resolution that was adopted, unanimously, in our federal House of

Commons to eradicate child poverty by the year 2000, still has not been acted

upon. There are still more children today in poverty probably than there was

when that resolution was enacted. Mr. Speaker, I think the minister has to do

more than recognize National Child Day -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

MR. COLLINS: By leave, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: Does the member have leave?

AN HON. MEMBER: By leave.

MR. SPEAKER: By leave.

MR. COLLINS: - and take definitive action, Mr. Speaker. The minister

should be taking action to make sure that the children of this Province have a

right to be free from hunger when they attend school and as they are living

their lives.

Thank you.

Oral Questions

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. WILLIAMS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

This economic statement that was presented today is yet another sad milestone

in the history of this government.

Mr. Speaker, the Auditor General for this Province has stated that she is

extremely concerned about the current state of the finances in our Province. In

the spring Budget which was presented in this hon. House, the government stated

that $30.5 million would be a prudent and a fiscally manageable target. The

Opposition told the people of this Province, at that time, that the numbers did

not add up and that, in fact, the deficit would be significantly higher. Again,

prior to September 11, the Opposition critic for Finance told the people of this

Province again that the numbers did not add up and that the deficit would be

significantly higher. Today, we are told that the deficit will increase nearly

threefold, to $80 million.

My question is for the Premier. The people of this Province were asked to

trust your judgement in the spring when you delivered your Budget and you were

wrong. Should they trust it now?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

In following with the tactic from yesterday, in which I understand you would

like yes or no answers, the answer to that is yes.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MR. WILLIAMS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

My first answered question by the Premier. Thank you Mr. Premier.

Mr. Speaker, in fact the Auditor General has also said that she is concerned

with the manner in which the government is calculating its surplus and its

deficit. She further said that she is concerned that government can adjust its

actual revenues and expenditures to achieve whatever number it desires; whatever

number it desires. I ask the Premier again: Should the people of Newfoundland

and Labrador trust these numbers when the Auditor General of this Province

clearly does not?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, I would ask that the Leader of the Opposition check again with

the commentary of the Auditor General. The Auditor General has confirmed that

all of the documentation done by the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador is

in accordance with accepted accounting practices under the Financial

Administration Act of Newfoundland and Labrador.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER GRIMES: So, Mr. Speaker, I am sure that a lawyer and a businessman

would not want to mislead anybody on a point as important and as clear as that,

because it is a fact that standard accounting practices under the Financial

Administration Act of Newfoundland and Labrador have always been used by this

government, and that has been attested to and confirmed by the Auditor General.

Mr. Speaker, what is telling though, in the commentary of the Opposition from

the very beginning, because the Finance Minister laid out the causes of the

variation from $30 million to $80 million. Thirty million of it is a public

sector raise - that we are very proud of - that you do not agree with.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER GRIMES: Now, come clean and acknowledge, first and foremost, and

stand up and be a man and declare something for goodness sake, because you

cannot turn around and condemn the $30 million and, at the same time, suggest

that you support the long overdue increase for the public servants of

Newfoundland and Labrador.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the Premier to conclude his answer.

PREMIER GRIMES: We are proud of that, Mr. Speaker. We know it has added

$30 million to the deficit. The Minister of Finance and myself, as the Premier,

acknowledged that to the people of Newfoundland and Labrador the very day that

we signed the agreement. So if you would like to call that mismanagement, giving

the people of the Province who work as public servants and provide the actual

services a 15 per cent increase, than sobeit, we will test that in the court of

public opinion any time.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. WILLIAMS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, I cannot remember using the word mismanagement. I think the

Premier used the word mismanagement. I happen to use the exact words as the

Auditor General used and I quoted her verbatim, directly word by word.

I understand that the Premier considers words to be very important. I noticed

in the economic statement, which was read by the minister today, "...the

impacts of the economic downturn have been compounded by the September 11

terrorist attacks." The Minister of Finance, some months ago, said: We

would be silly and we would be foolish, and we would be irresponsible not to

acknowledge the impact of the September 11 terrorist attacks on our economy.

MR. SPEAKER: I ask the Leader to get to his question.

MR. WILLIAMS: Subsequent to that statement, the Premier said: September

11 would have no affect on our economy. My question for the Premier: Who is

silly, foolish, or irresponsible, the Premier or the Minister of Finance?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The Leader of the Opposition suggests he would never use the word

mismanagement. Let me quote from a speech to the St. John's Board of Trade on

November 1.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

PREMIER GRIMES: Let me quote, Mr. Speaker. A direct quote.

AN HON. MEMBER: It depends on the day does it, Danny?

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

PREMIER GRIMES: It does depend on the day, and every day is important in

Newfoundland and Labrador. The Leader of the Opposition in speaking to the Board

of Trade: You have heard our party position on fiscal mismanagement. A week

before the September 11 tragedy our finance critic, Loyola Sullivan, was calling

on Minister Aylward for a six month report card because we could see the

Province was in a much deeper financial hole than it was telling the people of

Newfoundland and Labrador.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER GRIMES: Now, Mr. Speaker, the real answer is this: These people,

the employees of the provincial government, the business community, the

consumers in Newfoundland and Labrador, the bond raters and the lenders have all

said that there is no fiscal mismanagement in Newfoundland and Labrador, and

they have every confidence in what this government has done year over year, and

again this year, in handling the finances of this Province.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. WILLIAMS: Mr. Speaker, I indicated to the Premier that I did not use

the word mismanagement today. Believe me, Premier, ministers, and Minister of

Finance, you are going to hear the word mismanagement time and time and time

again.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. WILLIAMS: Mr. Speaker, the people of Newfoundland and Labrador

deserve to get the truth. They do not want books that are cooked up, they need

to get the cold, hard facts. They do not mind the truth. They do not need the

books juggled; they do not need them cooked up.

MR. SPEAKER: I ask the member to get to his question.

MR. WILLIAMS: Mr. Premier, you and I know where this Province is headed

financially. The Minister of Finance knows. I ask the Premier to tell the people

of Newfoundland and Labrador: What is the forecast for next year? Will the

deficit be $100 million?

AN HON. MEMBER: Rain.

MR. WILLIAMS: Rain! Is that the comment? This is a very serious question.

Did someone say rain?

Will the deficit be $100 million, $200 million, $300 million, or $400 million

as suggested by the finance critic?

Tell us the truth, Premier, just give us the straight goods.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I know the reputation of the Leader of the Opposition is that he likes to get

things done and get on with life. Come back in March and we will give you all

the information in next year's Budget, every bit of it, every single bit. That

is when we present the Budget for the people of Newfoundland and Labrador. We

will do that, and we will present a Budget every bit as good as the Budget we

presented this year, and it will show two things. It will show, as this year is

showing, that those things that we control are completely and totally under

control, which was my answer to the media, because the media said: Mr. Williams

- because he was outside the Legislature at the time - has been saying that

there is fiscal mismanagement and there is a crisis.

I was saying: No, that is not the case. For the things that we control, they

are completely under control and there will not be negative impacts on the

economic circumstance in Newfoundland and Labrador.

You have heard the numbers. The housing starts have not collapsed in

Newfoundland and Labrador. All of the consumer confidence has not dissipated and

disappeared in Newfoundland and Labrador. The parts where we raise money

ourselves in this economy are strong. There are some adjustments that are

now playing out in our Province; because we do, unfortunately, still get almost

not have control over that and the bond raters, the lenders, the business

community, consumers, they understand that. We might hear mismanagement from the

Leader of the Opposition repeatedly, but we will not hear it from the employees,

we will not hear it from the business community, we will not hear it from the

consumers, we will not hear it from the bond raters, and we will not hear it

from the lenders, so his lonely voice -

MR. SPEAKER: I would ask the Premier to conclude his answer.

PREMIER GRIMES: - can go ahead and continue on.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Ferryland.

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The Premier has indicated that we will get the full story in March. We did

not get it this past March. We are getting a different story today. Why should

we expect the same story - a true one - next March?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SULLIVAN: My question today is to the Minister of Finance.

Other Canadian provinces, and the Canadian government, are pursuing tax cuts

to stimulate the economy. The same is true across the United States. In fact,

economists tell us, and history has shown, that tax cuts increase consumer

spending. In view of what is happening today, and all around us, I ask the

minister: Has she changed her mind and will she bring in the scheduled personal

income tax cuts that she had promised to bring in on January 1, 2000?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance and President of Treasury

Board.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I just delivered a statement on the economic status of the Province a few

moments ago, and I announced for the second time that we would be deferring the

tax cut this year for obvious reasons. I would like to take a moment to explain

those.

I have spoken with economists at our last meeting with the federal Minister

of Finance, who made a comment which I think is important for the people of the

Province to hear: Unless you are prepared to put huge and significant amounts

into the economy, you will not generate short-term growth in your economy.

Mr. Speaker, we have generated long-term growth in our economy. We have put

$200 million back into our economy through two years of tax cuts and we will do

that, as we have said, honestly, openly, to the people of the Province, when we

can afford it. But, when every minute of every day you hear: more money for

health care - and even yesterday the Member for Ferryland asking for more money

for the roads to pave Ferryland road - we have to make choices. We are

responsible, and I have to say it is easy to be irresponsible. It is easy when

you do not have the courage to put forward your own policies, to ask for

everything. We, Mr. Speaker, will be responsible and we will continue to

prudently manage our finances.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Ferryland.

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

That is the short-term parochial thinking that got us into this problem in

the first place. The minister just gave notice in the House yesterday that she

is now getting rid of the Economic Advisory Council. That should tell us

something, Minister, I might add. There is a bill before this House; you are

going to get rid of it. Do you have bad advice, I ask the minister? All

employment -

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SULLIVAN: If she wants advice, we will give her good advice, I can

assure you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. SULLIVAN: All employment growth in the Province this year has been in

the service sector, and that is a sector that responds to consumer spending.

That is due to a stimulus given by lower interest rates and by tax cuts. In

fact, it has also contributed to a reduction in expenditures on social

assistance.

MR. SPEAKER: Would the member get to his question, please.

MR. SULLIVAN: I want to ask the minister - tax cuts today reap benefits

down the road. You have to look beyond your nose to get the economy moving. Why

is the minister being penny-wise and pound foolish in dealing with our Province's

fiscal situation?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance and President of Treasury

Board.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Mr. Speaker, in fact the opposite is true from what the

member has just said about being penny-wise and pound foolish. Mr. Speaker, we

have not eliminated any cuts. Remember, we have injected over $200 million into

the economy with the first two years of the tax cut. We have not eliminated

those tax cuts. They will continue on and accumulate.

Further, Mr. Speaker, we will continue to implement the third year when we

have said we will be able to afford it. We are not doing anything different than

what we said. We said each year we would look at our own situation.

Mr. Speaker, being able to account for $25 million when these members every

other day are saying: more money for drugs, more money for home care, more money

for cardiac surgery, more money for roads being paved, and on and on it goes.

Someone has to pay the bills and we are the responsible elected officials, as

government, that must assume responsibility. We have our policies. They are here

for everyone to see. It is easy, Mr. Speaker, to ask for everything when you are

not responsible to anyone and you do not have the courage to put your policies

down. Let us see where they would spend the money. Let us see what they would

do. We are all anxiously waiting.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary, the hon. the Member for Ferryland.

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

You know, the minister just does not see the benefits of instituting cuts and

getting a long-term result. I want to remind the minister that the first two

years of the personal income tax cuts in this Province saw the Province take in

$76 million more in income tax revenue than at the higher level. Why is the

minister now trying to put a damper on consumer spending at a time when it is

needed most?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance and President of Treasury

Board.

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Mr. Speaker, thank God we are not going to admit and

believe and try to convince the people that the sky is falling, because it is

not falling. Our consumer confidence remains strong, we have the best employment

levels since 1989, our housing starts are up, consumer spending is strong. I am

sorry, but we on this side of the House are not going to agree that the sky is

falling. We have confidence in our Province, but we live in the real world.

MR. SULLIVAN: (Inaudible).

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

Allow the minister to conclude her answer.

MS J.M. AYLWARD: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

We live in the real world. We know that our finance, our economy, is

depending on two components: our provincial economy and the federal economy. We

are very dependent on that, Mr. Speaker, on both. We are confident in our

provincial economy, and we remain optimistic, but we have to be realistic about

what is happening in the country and the world. We are impacted by the federal

government but, most importantly, whether we want to acknowledge it or not, we

are impacted by what happens in the United States of America as our major export

partner.

We remain confident, and we urge the members opposite to instill confidence

and not instill the sky is falling' mentality, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for The Straits & White Bay North.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. TAYLOR: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

This past year, Mr. Speaker, has been one of great uncertainty in the fishing

industry. We have witnessed some consolidation in this industry. While there are

many concerned about overcapacity and overcapitalization of this industry, we

see the minister encouraging and licensing the building of more. Now, Mr.

Speaker, it appears that Fishery Products International is in the process of

acquiring ownership of a significant player in this industry, Quinlan's.

Mr. Speaker, could the Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture inform this

House and the people of this Province what he knows about FPI's move to take

over Quinlan's or any other operator in this Province, and how that fits into

provincial fisheries policy?

Thank you.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. REID: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I appreciate the question, and I also appreciate some of the things that he

mentioned in the

preamble about overcapacity. Just on Friday past, he criticized

me for issuing a licence to the Town of Twillingate to do shrimp because, he

said, there was an overcapacity in the shrimp processing sector. That same day,

in the same press release, he said that I should issue a crab licence to St.

Anthony. By the way, Mr. Speaker, the crab industry right now has thirty-two

crab processing licences for 51,000 metric tons of crabs. There are eleven

shrimp licences out there for 60,000 tons of shrimp. So he talks about

overcapacity one day - and it seems to be a trend that has developed on the

opposite side in the last couple of months, that they say one thing outside the

House and say something totally different inside the House. So it is a bit

difficult, Mr. Speaker, to react to a question that they ask.

Anyway, Mr. Speaker, there has been a rumor out there in the industry this

year that FPI is looking at purchasing Quinlan Brothers. Right now all I know is

that it is a rumor, and I would rather not speculate on rumors.

Thank you.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for The Straits & White Bay North.

MR. TAYLOR: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I am not sure what the minister is talking about, a press release that I put

out on Friday, because I certainly did not put out a press release on Friday. I

did do an interview on Thursday with CBC.

Mr. Speaker, last winter the minister -

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. TAYLOR: Mr. Speaker, if the members opposite are not interested in

hearing the questions I have to ask, the people of the Province are interested

in having these questions answered.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. TAYLOR: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Last winter, Mr. Speaker, the minister announced plans for a review of the

fish processing licence policy in this Province. Since I can see no evidence of

this happening thus far, I would like for the Minister of Fisheries and

Aquaculture to inform us if this review is taking place and how people in the

industry can have input into this review.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. REID: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Yes, I did say there was a review ongoing in the processing sector of the

industry. I also appointed a panel to look at the corporate consolidation within

the industry, and next week I hope to announce another panel to look at the

shrimp processing sector of our industry.

Yes, Mr. Speaker, we have been out around the Province. We have been

consulting with all the stakeholders in the industry, and we will continue to do

so.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for The Straits & White Bay North,

on a final supplementary.

MR. TAYLOR: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I will ask this question, Mr. Speaker: Will the minister explain - because I

don't understand where he is going in this department, and he doesn't know

where he is going with it either, by the way - will the minister explain how

government policy apparently allows for the building of more capacity in an

industry that is plagued by overcapacity, and allows consolidation in that same

industry because he feels that consolidation needs to happen, and there is too

much capacity in the industry?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Fisheries and Aquaculture.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. REID: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

What I would like the gentleman opposite to answer for me is: What is his

stand on this issue? One day in the same interview - I apologize, because I said

it was a press release - but in the same interview on CBC Radio on Friday, the

gentleman opposite condemned me for issuing a licence because he said there was

too much capacity in the industry. In that same interview, Mr. Speaker, he asked

for a licence for St. Anthony which would increase the capacity in the industry.

Mr. Speaker, he talks about not having a plan. The last plan that I heard

from the members opposite was in their Blue Book of 1996, when they proposed to

open seventy-five fishplants during a moratorium.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Member for Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi.

MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

My question is for the Minister of Government Services and Lands and concerns

the proposed changes to automobile insurance in the Province.

The minister has stated that with the removal of the right to sue for most

injuries from automobile accidents, the government would consider mandating an

immediate reduction in third-party liability rates estimated at 35 per cent.

Now, Mr. Speaker, at the same time we have the insurance industry going around

the Province telling people that these changes would not reduce in any reduction

of rates for consumers but rather might prevent increases. Who is providing the

proper information to the people of the Province? Is the minister's department

misleading the people of the Province, or are we getting the full truth from the

insurance companies?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Government Services and Lands.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. NOEL: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

What the industry is saying is that if you restrict the right to sue you

would reduce rates by approximately 35 per cent from what they would otherwise

be. They are not saying that they would be reduced from what they are today

because they might increase between now and the time that it would be brought

in; if it were brought in. We are not saying we are going to bring that in. We

are asking citizens if they want to do something like that in order to try to

control interest rates. We are being told by the industry that rates are going

to increase somewhere between 30 per cent and 50 per cent over the next several

years, and our government wants to see if there are some options which we can

suggest or bring in to ensure that insurance rates do not rise any more than

necessary in our Province. The other side, Mr. Speaker, has no solutions. They

have no suggestions. They have no options to present. All they are saying is do

nothing. Well, if we do nothing people are going to have substantial increases

in their insurance rates, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi.

MR. HARRIS: Mr. Speaker, the minister's press release of November 14

says exactly: "If the restricted tort option were to be adopted, government

could mandate an immediate reduction in third-party liability rates, estimated

at 35 per cent."

That is a quote from the minister, Mr. Speaker. Not that they might not

increase by 35 per cent, but that they will be reduced. Will the minister, if he

wants to support this option, come out and say it and have people answer him

instead of pretending to have no position and expecting the people of the

Province to come up with the answer?

Mr. Speaker, the people of this Province want to be able to sue if they have

injuries, whether they are automobile drivers, whether they are passengers,

whether they are bicyclists, whether they are third-parties. Why does this

minister do the bidding of the insurance industry and issue information which is

misleading to the public?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Government Services and Lands.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. NOEL: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

If the people of the Province want to continue to have the right to sue, they

will continue to have the right to sue.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. NOEL: All we are doing, Mr. Speaker, is trying to find out if there

any ways that we can do something to reduce the increases in insurance rates

that the industry and our own regulators are telling us will occur. Now, I don't

know what is wrong with the logic of the hon. member. What we are saying is that

if we were to bring in this kind of system then we would legislate, at the time,

to ensure that there will be a reduction at that time. That does not mean there

will be a reduction from what the prices are now because we do not know what the

prices might be at the time such a system would be brought; which would not

happen until, at the earliest, about four to six months time.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Waterford Valley.

We have time for one quick question and one quick answer.

MR. H. HODDER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

My question is for the Minister of Human Resources and Employment. The latest

stats, released this past summer, show a dismal profile of child poverty in

Newfoundland and Labrador. Child poverty rates for all provinces, except in

Newfoundland and Labrador, have decreased in recent years. On National Child

Day, Mr. Minister, can you inform the House as to what new initiatives your

government is adopting to ensure that our children are not robbed of their basic

birth right to adequate food, adequate shelter, and adequate clothing?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Human Resources and Employment.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SMITH: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I certainly welcome the question from the hon. member opposite, and I think

it is a good day to raise this question. No doubt, of late, we have seen the

reports that have been carried in the media pointing to the problems of child

poverty. Nobody in this country is happy if we have one child who is hungry or

one child living in poverty. Certainly we, within this government and within

this Province, have been making tremendous efforts over the last number of years

to introduce initiatives directly geared towards reducing, and eventually

eliminating, child poverty. I look at things like the National Child Benefit,

the Newfoundland Child Benefit. I look at the fact that we have extended drug

card coverage to families of low income to enable them to get into the

workforce, to increase their earning power.

The real solution, Mr. Speaker, is to get at the economic development in this

Province and get to the point where everyone, who wants to, can have a

meaningful job. That is the challenge that we face. That is the direction and

the commitment of this government. I can say to the hon. member, just look at

and pay attention to what is happening in the Province and you will see -

MR. SPEAKER: I ask the minister to conclude his answer.

MR. SMITH: - that there are, in fact, some very significant initiatives

that have been undertaken. This government is proud of what they have done, but

we will not rest until child poverty is eliminated in this Province.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Question Period has now concluded.

Notices of Motion

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Cape St. Francis.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I rise in my place today to move the following Private Member's Resolution:

WHEREAS the residents of dozens of communities in Newfoundland and Labrador

rely on ferries for transportation; and

WHEREAS seven of the twelve government-owned vessels in the ferry fleet are

older than twenty-five years of age; and

WHEREAS the normal life expectancy of a ferry vessel is about twenty-five

years as reported by the Auditor General in her 2000 annual report; and

WHEREAS there has not been a significant upgrade of the Province's fleet of

marine vessels since 1993, with the exception of the Captain Earl Winsor

and the Ahelaid ;and

WHEREAS the Captain Earl Winsor , purchased from the Government of

Canada for $300,000 in October of 1997 when it was twenty-five years old,

required refit to meet Canadian standards and departmental requirements at a

total cost of $3.6 million to date; and

WHEREAS the Ahelaid, purchased from Estonia for $764,000 plus $166,000

in custom duties in May of 1999 when it was thirteen years old, also required

refit, which is not yet complete and which will cost in excess of $4.1 million;

and

WHEREAS many in the Province who rely on ferries are often deprived of

acceptable ferry service or any ferry service at all because the vessels are

broken down or unable to operate ; and

WHEREAS the provincial government in the 1980s, while following a policy of

constructing ferries at the Marystown Shipyard, built the Gallipoli , the Beaumont

Hamel and the Flanders and planned to build a sister ship to the Flanders ,

though that project was cancelled after the Liberal government was elected in

1989; and

WHEREAS constructing modern ferries at the Marystown Shipyard instead of

purchasing old and derelict vessels would ensure the Province has a reliable

fleet while also revitalizing the struggling local shipbuilding industry,

stimulating spinoff economic activity, increasing employment and boosting

provincial government revenues;

THEREFORE

BE IT RESOLVED that this Honourable House call upon the provincial

government to implement a vessel replacement policy of constructing new ferries

at shipyards in Newfoundland and Labrador instead of purchasing vessels from

outside the Province.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

Petitions

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for St. John's South.

MR. T. OSBORNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, I present in the House today a petition, the prayer of which

reads:

We, the residents of Newfoundland and Labrador wish to petition the House of

Assembly, with copies to the House of Commons, to oppose the bulk export of

water from this Province.

Every major resource, such as Churchill Falls, that has been developed in

Newfoundland and Labrador has resulted in the majority of benefits going outside

the Province. It is time we demand our full and fair share! With water being one

of the few resources remaining, where we have the opportunity to deliver maximum

benefit through jobs, spinoff from secondary processing, as well as royalties,

we demand that any water sold must be bottled and processed in this Province.

Mr. Speaker, I fully support this petition. We have petitions today from a

number of areas throughout the Province and we continue to receive these

petitions on a daily basis, almost. The people of this Province do not want this

resource shipped out in bulk. The people of this Province want this resource

bottled and processed in this Province to give maximum benefit to the people of

this Province, to provide the jobs in this Province, to provide the spinoffs,

possibly bottling, manufacturing, transportation of the product, in this

Province.

Mr. Speaker, we cannot afford to continue to let our royal resources go out

of this Province without maximum benefit to the people of this Province. That is

what the people on this petition are asking for, Mr. Premier. No more, no less.

They are asking that maximum benefits from our resources go to the people who

own the resources, the people of this Province. The people of Newfoundland and

Labrador own this resource. The people of Newfoundland and Labrador are asking

for their fair share of the resource, which is maximum benefits, jobs, royalties

and whatever else comes with the resource.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

Orders of the Day

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, I would like to move some first readings today.

Motion, the hon. the Minister of Education to introduce a bill, "An Act

To Amend The Teacher Training Act," carried. (Bill 21)

On motion, Bill 21 read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow.

Motion, the hon. the Minister of Finance and President of Treasury Board to

introduce the following bills, carried:

A bill, "An Act To Amend The Health And Post-Secondary Education Tax

Act." (Bill 28)

A bill, "An Act To Repeal The Economic Advisory Council Act." (Bill

31)

A bill, "An Act To Amend The Uniformed Services Pensions Act,

1991." (Bill 40)

A bill, "An Act To Amend The Financial Administration Act No. 2."

(Bill 50)

On motion, Bills 28, 31, 40, and 50 read a first time, ordered read a second

time on tomorrow.

Motion, the hon. the Minister of Forest Resources and Agrifoods to introduce

the following bills, carried:

A bill, "An Act To Amend The Forestry Act." (Bill 22)

A bill, "An Act Respecting The Protection Of Farm Practices In The

Province." (Bill 41)

On motion, Bills 22 and 41 read a first time, ordered read a second time on

tomorrow.

Motion, the hon. the Minister of Health and Community Services to introduce

the following bills, carried:

A bill, "An Act Respecting The Child And Youth Advocate." (Bill 46)

A bill, "An Act To Amend The Registered Nurses Act." (Bill 26)

A bill, "An Act To Amend The Health Care Association Act, Hospitals Act

and Licensed Practical Nurses Act." (Bill 23)

A bill, "An Act To Amend The Child Care Services Act." (Bill 53)

On motion, Bills 46, 26, 23, and 53 read a first time, ordered read a second

time on tomorrow.

Motion, the hon. the Minister of Government Services and Lands to introduce a

bill, "An Act To Amend The Securities Act," carried. (Bill 42)

On motion, Bill 42 read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow.

Motion, the hon. the Minister of Justice and Attorney General to introduce

the following bills, carried:

A bill, "An Act To Amend The Judgement Enforcement Act." (Bill 39)

A bill, "An Act To Amend The Law To Consider Same Sex Cohabiting

Partners In The Same Manner As Opposite Sex Cohabiting Partners." (Bill 36)

On motion, Bills 39 and 36 read a first time, ordered read a second time on

tomorrow.

Motion, the hon. the Minister of Municipal and Provincial Affairs to

introduce a bill, "An Act To Amend The Assessment Act," carried. (Bill

24)

On motion, Bill 24 read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow.

Motion, the hon. the Minister of Tourism, Culture and Recreation to introduce

the following bills, carried:

A bill, "An Act Respecting The Protection Of Endangered Species."

(Bill 33)

A bill, "An Act To Amend The Provincial Parks Act." (Bill 56)

On motion, Bills 33 and 56 read a first time, ordered read a second time on

tomorrow.

Motion, the hon. the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation to

introduce a bill, "An Act To Amend The Public Tender Act," carried.

(Bill 25)

On motion, Bill 25 read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow.

MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, that concludes first readings for today.

MR. SPEAKER: Are we now clear that all the bills that need first reading

have received first reading?

AN HON. MEMBER: Agreed.

MR. SPEAKER: Agreed.

The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, Order 7, continuing on with the debate of Bill 32,

An Act To Amend The Dental Act.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Trinity North.

MR. ROSS WISEMAN: Mr. Speaker, I welcome the opportunity to make a couple

of comments on this amendment. I think it is a bill that is long overdue. It

provides an opportunity for dentists in the Province to operate in a business

fashion, in a manner in which they would normally carry on their practices, and

provides some excellent benefits for them in terms of maximizing their revenue

potential.

Also, Mr. Speaker, one of the other significant things it does is, it

provides a good opportunity for us to have a better access to recruitment

strategies and also it is an excellent retention strategy for dentists in the

Province. I commend the minister for introducing these amendments.

Just to make a couple of points for the minister's consideration, I

appreciate her comments in the introduction with respect to not wanting to limit

the liability and the ability for residents of the Province to be able to sue,

should there be some malpractice charges against dentists. However, I am not

really certain in

section 25.7(2), whether or not it is actually clear, whether

or not you would sue the corporation or you would sue the individual

practitioner. That is a question on which I ask the minister for some

clarification.

The other thing, Mr. Speaker, I would just comment for the minister's

clarification, whether or not there is a piece of companion legislation in the

Medical Care Insurance Act, whether that needs to give some consideration to the

ability of these corporations to be able to bill MCP in the same fashion as the

physicians would. If you recall, last year there was an amendment to the act to

provide for a professional medical corporation to, in fact, bill, and this is an

entity that has a different legal name and I just question the minister whether

or not there is that ability. I suggest you may want to consider whether that is

an ability there to, in fact, bill under MCP in the same fashion as physicians

might in the Province.

Otherwise, Mr. Speaker, I commend the minister for having introduced these

amendments.

Thank you.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Waterford Valley.

MR. H. HODDER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I, too, wish to stand and speak on this particular bill,

An Act To Amend The

Dental Act. I note that last year I was part of some consultations that led to a

submission by the Newfoundland Dental Association on this particular matter. Mr.

Speaker, this will assist the dental profession to become more competitive in

comparison with their colleagues across the country. As was said yesterday, this

will assist in the retention of medical specialists, dentists in particular, in

our Province.

I am told that this will certainly help in the recruitment and will help in

the retention of dental specialists, and anything that we can do to assist in

that regard is to be commended and to be encouraged. It also puts this Province

on a level playing field in comparison with the practice in other provinces,

particularly in Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, Alberta, British Columbia and

Manitoba. I should say that most of the other provinces are now considering

similar legislation.

Mr. Speaker, we commend the minister. She has consulted adequately with the

dental profession and we, on this side, support this piece of legislation

because it is very positive and because it will assist, in particular, with the

retention and recruitment of dental specialists throughout all of Newfoundland

and Labrador.

Thank you very much.

MR. SPEAKER: If the hon. the minister now speaks, she will close debate.

The hon. the Minister of Health and Community Services.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MS BETTNEY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

As I indicated in my opening comments with this particular bill, this brings

us much more in line with the rest of the provinces across the country. I

believe there are eight other provinces that have this provision for

incorporation for dentists.

As the Member for Waterford Valley indicated, this is intended to respond to

the requests from the Newfoundland Dental Association and from dentists, and it

will provide income tax relief, particularly for specialists who are very, very

difficult to recruit, and this will be an added benefit for our health boards

and for our communities in trying to attract dentists to our Province.

There are some questions which the Member for Trinity North had indicated. I

am sure at the next level of debate I will be able to provide the responses to

those particulars, but this is a well-developed piece of legislation, as has

been indicated through considerable consultation, and I understand that it is

well accepted by dentists throughout the Province as well as from all of the

other stakeholders.

With that, Mr. Speaker, I conclude the debate.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

On motion, a bill, "

An Act To Amend The Dental Act," read a second

time, ordered referred to a Committee of the Whole House on tomorrow. ( Bill 32)

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. LUSH: Order 8, second reading of a bill,

An Act To Respect The

Practice of Massage Therapy. (Bill 38)

Motion, second reading of a bill, "

An Act Respecting The Practice of

Massage Therapy." (Bill 38)

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health and Community Services.

MS BETTNEY: Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to speak to the Massage Therapy Act

which we are bringing forward at this time.

The purpose of this piece of legislation is to govern the practice of massage

therapy in this Province. Of course, the effects of this legislation would

provide for self-regulation status for the Newfoundland and Labrador Massage

Therapists Association.

This organization represents about seventy-five members in this Province,

many of whom have voluntarily written exams in order to allow them to be

registered in British Columbia or in Ontario. By doing so, they have proven that

they possess the skills to work in these regulated areas, and they are very

similar to the standards that we are trying to attain here.

The remaining members of the Association who have not actually achieved this

particular level of credential have been required to pass an admission

examination given by the organization, which is very similar in its level and

standards.

Members of the Massage Therapists Association, by virtue of being part of

that Association, have to adhere to standards of practice. They have to carry

professional liability insurance, continue their education and so on; however,

membership in the organization is voluntary and the most severe disciplinary

action that the Association can take is simply to cancel a therapist's

membership.

For a number of years, the Massage Therapists Association has been requesting

of government to provide legislation to govern the practice of massage therapy

in this Province. This is one of the most fast-growing areas of health in the

Province. In fact, membership in the Massage Therapists Association has grown by

600 per cent in the past five years.

While government has approved a training program for the profession, at the

current time it simply does not regulate it and graduates are able to begin

practicing without the safeguard of an independent examination and therefore

without having that level of public accountability.

Given that people, of course, refer themselves - it is a self-referral system

- the provincial government and the Massage Therapists Association have strong

concerns that patients may access therapists who do not have the proper

qualifications. The legislation that I am bringing forward today will help to

ensure that only qualified professionals are involved in this increasingly

popular health care profession. It will also see that disciplinary actions are

open to the Association and the licensing board should a massage therapist fail

to comply within these guidelines.

What the legislation provides for is a tripartite committee which includes

Government Services and Lands, Health and Community Services, and the

Association. It has used the White Paper on new proposals for occupational

regulations to assess this proposal from the Massage Therapists Association.

The paper that was brought forward relating to self-governance concluded that

this particular profession certainly does warrant self-regulation. The

association has received support for their request from a number of other

self-regulated professionals, including the Newfoundland and Labrador Medical

Association and the Association of Registered Nurses of Newfoundland and

Labrador.

This legislation, I might add, is quite consistent with our labor mobility

provisions for the practice of massage therapy, which are being developed

nationally in accordance with

chapter 7 of the agreement on internal trade. So

this means that standards that are outlined by the association are consistent

with those in other provinces and there will be no difficulty in complying with

our standards around labour mobility and, for people who are trained and

practicing here, to be able to move from one province to another.

Massage therapy is currently regulated in Ontario and British Columbia. The

professional associations in a number of other provinces are also moving on this

track to try, as well, to gain status and to become self-regulated. Therefore, I

think this is a positive move that will provide something that the Massage

Therapists' Association has certainly earned in terms of its approach to date

and will provide a level of public protection to consumers and people in the

Province.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, and I introduce it at this time.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MADAM SPEAKER ( M. Hodder): The hon. the Member for St. John's West.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MS S. OSBORNE: Thank you, Madam Speaker.

I have been speaking to a member of the Newfoundland and Labrador Massage

Therapists' Association re this bill and, as the minister said, they are

extremely pleased that it is finally being brought before the House of Assembly.

It has been a goal of theirs since their inception some eleven years ago when

they began with just five massage therapists. Now, with the education of so many

people in the massage therapy field, obviously there is certainly a need for

greater regulation, which will give protection to the massage therapists as well

as a great level of comfort to the consumers of massage therapy, who certainly

realize the wonderful therapeutic effects of massage therapy.

I note that

section 5, the board that will be established under this act,

will examine all degrees, diplomas, licences and other credentials of an

applicant; prescribe continuing education, examinations; approve registration

and issue licences to persons who meet the requirements; and establish

procedures to deal with the disciplinary requirements under the act.

It is nice to see that they will be self-regulated. It will certainly provide

a protection for them, enhance their qualifications and, as I said before,

provide a great level of comfort to the people out in the community.

As a protection to massage therapists and to consumers again, "A person

other than a massage therapist registered and licenced under this Act shall not

use the title "massage therapist" or an abbreviation or variation of

that title." Once again, that is good. Once this bill has been passed and

legislation is in order, any consumer who is using massage therapy will be

protected. They will know that the person is, in fact, a licenced therapist.

Section 8 of the act - and I really like this part, "For the purposes of

registration and the issuance of a licence under this Act, the board shall

recognize and approve examinations and schools of or pertaining to massage

therapy and shall make provisions for the holding of examinations as it may

consider necessary for those purposes, but the standards of the examinations and

schools recognized and approved and of the examinations held shall not be lower

than the standards prescribed by the Canadian Massage Therapy Alliance."

That is certainly good for the massage therapists and good for the consumers as

well, because it puts the massage therapists of the Province of Newfoundland and

Labrador on a par with their counterparts on the mainland.

Another part that I like to refer to is the grandfather clause, and that is

for the protection of those people who have been practicing massage therapy

prior to being educated formally.

Section 9.(2), "A person shall not

practice or perform massage therapy in the province after one year from the

coming into force of this Act unless he or she is registered and licensed under

section 8." Notwithstanding this subsection, a person who has

"practiced massage therapy in the province for not fewer than 7 years

immediately before the coming into force of this Act" shall be recognized

as a massage therapist. If they have "been a member of the association; and

have completed courses of instruction and have practical experience that the

board considers to be equivalent to the requirements of paragraph 8" which

lay down the requirements for being licensed as a massage therapist.

"The board shall appoint at least 3 members of the board, at least one

of whom shall be a member of the board who was appointed to represent the public

interest..." This is re complaints to the disciplinary panel which will be

handled fairly by the appointment of a member who will represent the public

interest.

I have no problem in speaking to this act and I am certainly sure that I will

have no problem in voting.

Thank you very much.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Cartwright-L'Anse au Clair.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MS JONES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I wanted to rise and have a few words of support on Bill 38.

Madam Speaker, basically what this bill does is assists the Newfoundland and

Labrador Massage Therapists' Association within our Province to basically

streamline their organization and also to streamline the actual industry itself

in terms of an overall association and licencing procurement process.

At the present time, Madam Speaker, as was already indicated by others who

spoke on this bill, there is no regulation within the industry. It is very

difficult to be able to track the number of massage therapists that are

currently operating within our Province. No doubt, our statistics tell us that

the Career Academy itself which offered a Massage Therapy course between 1995

and 1999 have graduated up to twenty-five people every six months. I think those

are remarkable numbers.

The industry itself has grown by 600 per cent in membership in the last five

years. That is certainly an indication of the caliber of service and business

that is being offered throughout our Province within this particular sector.

Madam Speaker, this is an industry in which we have seen tremendous growth.

We have seen great participation from the public in the use of these types of

services across the Province. What the Newfoundland and Labrador Massage

Therapists' Association is basically asking for is that they have an overall

association that will allow them to put in place different licensing practices

for their members and for the people that are operating. That is what government

is doing in the passing of this bill. Basically, they are allowing them to set

certain standards for the delivery of these types of services and those

standards, no doubt, will fall in line with what is being done in other

provinces at this particular time, in the Province of Ontario and the Province

of British Columbia. Madam Speaker, there are other provinces across the country

that are endeavoring to pass similar legislation or to put together similar

legislation in order to have regulatory status for massage therapists in their

provinces as well.

Because the massage therapy services in the Province are mostly self

regulated, the request by professionals to have an actual association that would

regulate and license them as an entire body, will certainly enhance the service

to the public and also enhance them as an organization.

I certainly support this particular bill, especially in light of the growth

that we have seen within this particular sector all across the Province.

Certainly, I am sure many of us here, and around the Province, have availed of

the services that are being provided by these particular businesses. We know how

important it is that we have good licensed professional services and we take

comfort in knowing, and the public takes comfort in knowing, that when they do

avail of the services of this particular industry that they will be doing so

knowing that all the safeguards have certainly been put in place and that what

they are getting is no doubt a first-class service that has been regulated by

those individuals themselves who are within the industry.

I guess, in order to ensure the safety of the public, the association will

have elected professional members of their governing body or council, and they

will certainly be responsible for overseeing and administering this particular

organization. All the massage therapists who will be enrolled as members of this

association, which will be all of them who operate within the Province of

Newfoundland and Labrador, will have that level of comfort in knowing that any

cases they had will certainly be heard by a peer review process of council that

will make sure that they adhere to all the standards of practice.

So I think this is, no doubt, a very important bill and a bill that is

required and has been requested by the Newfoundland and Labrador Association of

Massage Therapists. I am pleased today to support the minister and government in

the passage of this bill.

Thank you.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MADAM SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Trinity North.

MR. ROSS WISEMAN: Madam Speaker, I would just like to make a couple of

comments about the bill. I welcome it's introduction. As we have heard several

speakers comment on, it does provide for good public protection. I guess it

raises the question, Madam Speaker, in terms of, we have a diverse number of

people entering the health profession, and health providers, in recent years. I

think it speaks to the notion that we need to be very careful in ensuring that

we introduce legislation very quickly to make sure that we provide that kind of

protection to the consumer.

This association has been in existence since the 1990s and, inasmuch as it is

welcoming to see the legislation now, I guess it poses the question in and

around how we license health providers and how we provide protection to the

consumer.

I think, Madam Speaker, the minister might be advised to start looking at

some umbrella legislation that protects consumers and ensures that, before

anybody - because we are not certain what will be the next emerging profession

providing health services and we need to have some umbrella piece of legislation

to ensure that the consumer and the public is protected from anybody who may

want to just hang a shingle and decide they are going to practice some form of

medicine.

The other comment I would make is more in the form of, I guess, a query of

the minister. The legislation does deal with the issue of registration and the

issue of those people who are currently in practice, Madam Speaker. The other

question that would arise I think, Madam Speaker, is for those people who may be

registered outside of the Province. The legislation speaks to the issue of

registration of those who are practicing in the Province and may be licensed

with some other agency or some other jurisdiction. I think the issue here is one

of what might be an issue of registration for those who might be in other

jurisdictions.

Just a couple of comments or suggestions for the minister.

Thank you.

MADAM SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health and Community Services. If

the minister speaks now, she will close the debate.

MS BETTNEY: Thank you, Madam Speaker.

I am very pleased - oh, I am sorry!

MADAM SPEAKER: I am sorry! The hon. the Member for Signal Hill-Quidi

Vidi.

MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Madam Speaker.

I don't think I was able to catch your eye before the minister closed

debate inadvertently, and I thank her for taking her place and allowing me to

speak to this legislation.

Madam Speaker, the legislation before the House respecting and regulating the

practice of massage therapy is something that I think is important in this

Province. I should say, I suppose, that the massage therapist professionals are

very lucky in some respects. They are a relatively new health professional group

in this Province, particularly in offering services to the public, and they are

already receiving recognition through legislation, through this bill before the

House.

I know that some other professionals who have been around for decades, Madam

Speaker, such as the social workers, who probably for decades themselves were

lobbying government and in some cases fighting with government - not this

government but previous governments - to seek recognition as an independent

group of professionals. We had many people who had a master's degree in social

work, a bachelor of social work program at Memorial University for fifteen years

or more. We had people acting in government with social work degrees, and yet

they had great difficulty getting the government to recognize them as an

independent professional group entitled to self-regulation, entitled to the

exclusive use of the term social work, in their case, entitling them to be the

ones who are in charge of the designation; in other words, able to establish the

educational standards by which to give a designation of social worker.

As I say, Madam Speaker, there were other groups who had equal difficulty.

The chiropractors, for example, had a great deal of difficulty getting

recognition in the Province as professionals. The denturists were another group

who had some difficulty, perhaps because there was fear by other professionals,

such as the doctors and dentists in both of those last two cases, that there may

be some turf wars going on or they did not want others to be recognized as

professionals.

Here is a group, Madam Speaker, which I think has very good reasons for

recognition as a separate professional group because it is an area where it

would be easy for someone to hold themselves out as a massage therapist. It

would be easy for someone to just say that they are offering massage services to

the public without the necessary training, without the necessary expertise, and

in a field, Madam Speaker, where it is quite possible to, in fact, inflict harm

on a patient receiving massage therapy if the therapist is not well trained and

does not know what they are doing. There have been cases, not in this Province

thankfully, where the actions of a massage therapist, without knowing a medical

or physical problem that the patient had, in fact caused very serious harm, and

can cause very serious harm.

It is important that there be protection of the public, which is the purpose

of the type of regulation and registration that we are talking about, but it is

also important that we have a group that is going to be able to regulate

internally the profession, respond to complaints from members of the public

about quality of service or other ethical issues, and to establish standards of

practice for the profession of massage therapy.

I should say, Madam Speaker, there has been some considerable debate in the

past number of years about the profession of massage therapists. I recall four

or five years ago, or not as long ago as that, when we had a course being

offered by a private training institution which was offering a course in massage

therapy, and when there was no registration in this Province they sent their

students to Ontario to take the Ontario board exams. Many of them came back,

Madam Speaker, having failed those exams, unable to qualify according to the

College of Massage Therapists of Ontario, and those practicing massage therapy

in this Province would hold themselves out as RMTs or Registered Massage

Therapists. They were registered, but not in this Province. They were registered

in Ontario, because Ontario and British Columbia were the only provinces that

had a designation, a registration system for Registered Massage Therapists.

There was a concern that this government's response to the crisis when the

Career Academy went bankrupt as a result of the bankrupt policies of this

government in promoting post-secondary education through the private sector

without placing adequate controls and supervision, there was a great problem

because the students who had paid in many cases as much as $22,000 or more to

the Career Academy to get proper designation, there was a concern about the

quality of education that they received.

Now, I have not had the kind of consultation with the registered massage

therapy group or other interested stakeholders of this, as I would like to have,

Madam Speaker. The reason that I have not and I suspect that most members have

not is because this government has chosen not to use our Legislation Review

Committee system that has been in place in this House for many years and in fact

was in very widespread use a number of years ago.

I recall sitting on a committee, the Social Legislation Review Committee,

when we looked at the Social Workers Registration Act. I recall sitting on a

Legislation Review Committee when we looked at the Chiropractors Registration

Act and we heard from the chiropractors, we heard from others, we heard from

members of the public, and we had hearings where it was explained to us how this

registration of the professional group would protect the public, and whether or

not certain people would be grandfathered in or grandmothered in, as the case

may be, because of their particular training that may or may not have met the

standard that was being -

AN HON. MEMBER: Grandparenting.

MR. HARRIS: Grandparenting. The Member for Lake Melville has the generic

term grandparented in. It is a rather awkward phrase, Madam Speaker, so I would

rather use grandfathering or grandmothering. Just as I say Madam Speaker instead

of the generic Speaker, I guess we could leave out madam or mister and just say

Speaker.

Nevertheless, Madam Speaker, we have had in the past the Legislation Review

Committees of this House so we are not faced with thirty or forty pieces of

legislation in what will be, I believe, twelve sitting days in which we are able

to deal with legislation in this House and committees will have had an

opportunity to review the legislation clause by clause and help the House to

make the legislation better.

My own experience on these committees, these Legislation Review Committees,

is that there have been areas where the legislation is found to be deficient and

the legislation has in fact been improved before it comes to the House, with

recommendations for amendments that the government has seen the wisdom of

because the act itself has been deficient in some way, or that there is

something that the minister or the minister's officials had not thought of, or

something that had not been fully considered.

I think, Madam Speaker, as time goes on I would hope that this government

will see the wisdom of reconsidering the use of Legislation Review Committees. I

did not hear all of the minister's speech because I was asked to answer some

questions of the media outside of the House, but I understand the Registered

Massage Therapists Association is satisfied with the legislation and I am sure

that they are probably very grateful with the speed at which the department and

the minister has responded to the request to have the massage therapy

registration act put into place.

I do wish to commend the minister on responding to this group of health

professionals in a much more timely fashion than some of those others who have

been around a lot longer, such as the chiropractors and social workers who had

to wait many, many years for the kind of recognition that the massage therapists

have been given.

I do have some experience, Madam Speaker, in the use of massage therapy for

aliments, and I do have to say that I am pleased with the quality of care that

is provided by Registered Massage Therapists. I am speaking in particular of

those who have achieved the registration standards that were in place. I guess,

in default of having our own registration system, individuals who received

training in massage therapy would advertise the fact or hold themselves out as

being RMTs, which really means Registered Massage Therapist, but they were

actually registered in Ontario. Ontario was, in fact, providing the standard for

this Province and other provinces as well.

I would hope, and perhaps the minister can assure us in her closing remarks

at second reading, that we will have no less of a standard in this Province

through the education requirements that are being expected, that the licensing

issued by the Registered Massage Therapist organization in this Province will

adopt and will approve, and we will have no less of a high standard for

Registered Massage Therapists in this Province as the Province of Ontario has

had for many years. Perhaps the minister can tell us what dealings they may have

with the College of Massage Therapists in Ontario, for example, who have been

operating for many years, and other boards throughout the country, so we can be

assured that we will not have a watering down of standards but rather a

comparable standard, a standard that is based on consultation with other boards

across the country who are establishing standards for massage therapists such as

we do in the legal profession, for example, in the medical profession and others

who have national bodies by which they have comparisons for mobility, for

example, where a person who is