British Columbia Hansard — THURSDAY, APRIL 1, 2004 (37th Parliament, 5th Session) (20040401pm-Hansard-v23n5)
20040401pm-Hansard-v23n5
British Columbia — Debates (Hansard)
2004 Legislative Session: 5th Session, 37th Parliament
HANSARD
The following electronic version is for informational purposes
only.
The printed version remains the official version.
Official Report of
DEBATES OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY
(Hansard)
THURSDAY, APRIL 1, 2004
Afternoon Sitting
Volume 23, Number 5
CONTENTS
Routine Proceedings
Page
Introductions by Members
Statements (Standing Order 25 B )
Vaisakhi Day
P. Sahota
Volunteerism in Tri-Cities
K. Manhas
Methamphetamine use
Mayencourt
Oral Questions
Government spending on health care
advertising
MacPhail
Hon. C.
Hansen
Funding for Picasso Cafe
J. Kwan
Hon. S.
Hagen
Mining activities in parks
Nettleton
Hon. R.
Neufeld
Safety of Trans-Canada Highway
between Pritchard and Chase
K. Krueger
Hon. K.
Falcon
Tabling Documents
Simon Fraser University Surrey
Central City Campus Major Capital Project Plan
Motions on Notice
Powers of Crown Corporations
Committee (Motion 107)
Hon. G.
Collins
Referral of reports to committees
and powers of Public Accounts Committee (Motion 108)
Hon. G.
Collins
Powers of Health Committee (Motion
109)
Hon. G.
Collins
Powers of Finance and Government
Services Committee (Motion 110)
Hon. G.
Collins
Powers of Education Committee
(Motion 111)
Hon. G.
Collins
Second Reading of Bills
Water, Land and Air Protection
Statutes Amendment Act, 2004 (Bill 16)
Hon. B.
Barisoff
Miscellaneous Statutes Amendment
Act, 2004 (Bill 18)
Hon. G.
Plant
Committee of Supply
Estimates: Ministry of Human
Resources (continued)
MacPhail
Hon. S.
Hagen
Mayencourt
V. Roddick
Proceedings
in the Douglas Fir Room
Committee of Supply
Estimates: Ministry of Education (continued)
Hon. T.
Christensen
J. Kwan
[ Page 10061 ]
THURSDAY, APRIL 1, 2004
The House
met at 2:05 p.m.
[J.
Weisbeck in the chair.]
Introductions by Members
Hon. S.
Brice: I have the pleasure of introducing a class in the House today not
only from my riding but also from my neighbourhood. I would like to introduce
the 27 grade 5 students from Lochside Elementary School who are here with
parents and their two teachers, Ms. Rowena Keeb and Ms. Donna Thornton. I would
ask the House to make them welcome.
Krueger: In the precinct this afternoon is someone who is making her very
first appearance ever in the precinct. Her name is Johanna Weir. She is a
brand-new baby born to Sarah Bonner, the managing director of our caucus, and
her husband, Patrick Weir. Would the House please make Johanna, Patrick and
Sarah all very welcome.
Nettleton: I am pleased today to introduce to the House Mr. Joe Foy and Mr.
Ken Wu, representing the Western Canada Wilderness Committee. Please join me in
welcoming these gentlemen.
Statements
(Standing Order 25
b) VAISAKHI DAY
Sahota: On April 10 the lower mainland will see thousands of people coming
together from all over North America to celebrate one of the most important
religious holidays of the Sikh faith, Vaisakhi. The Premier, my colleagues and I
will be attending many of those celebrations for this special day. Vaisakhi,
commemorating the founding of the Khalsa, is built around the values of
universal justice, tolerance and shared prosperity. Festivals and celebrations
like these allow us to reflect on the contribution that the Sikh community has
made and continues to make to British Columbia.
People from
the Indian subcontinent have been in Canada for over 100 years. From those
earliest days the pioneers have worked hard to contribute to this country. Today
the descendants of those pioneers are prominent in business, medicine,
education, law and politics. By sheer hard work and determination, they have
given their children better futures than they would have had anywhere else in
the world.
Canada has
given people from all over the world a home to call their own. Those from India,
particularly, feel a special allegiance and loyalty to this great country.
People like Baltej Dhillon, the first Mountie allowed to wear a turban; Shushma
Datt, a pioneer in media; pioneers in forestry like Asa Johal, Herb Doman, Jack
Uppal, the late Tera Singh Ghog and Norm Sangha; and people like Justice Wally
Oppal.
This year
something special is taking place on Vaisakhi, and it is because of a special
individual. Burnaby resident and Rotarian Anup Jubbal is president of Canadian
Eyesight International. Because of his leadership, Canadian Eyesight
International has treated over 100,000 people in India. In the spirit of giving
back and in the spirit of Vaisakhi, Mr. Jubbal's organization has teamed up with
Dr. David Neima and Dr. Amrik Panesar. These eye doctors will be conducting free
eye screening and eye checkups on Sunday, April 11, at the Ross Street Sikh
temple.
I want to
thank all the organizers for offering this service to the community and for
their humanitarian work that they have undertaken in India. Today I salute and
applaud the dedication, determination and perseverance of Mr. Anup Jubbal and
all the pioneers. Happy Vaisakhi.
VOLUNTEERISM IN TRI-CITIES
Manhas: Today I am proud to announce what promises to be a new institution
in the Tri-Cities. Our community's first-ever Volunteer Fest will be held at the
Coquitlam Centre on Saturday, April 24. The event will showcase the various
non-profit and volunteer-intensive groups and clubs that build the fabric of our
community, keep it safe and increase the quality of our life and our
environment. It will highlight the important work done by volunteers in our
region and will celebrate the many positive changes individuals can make by
taking active roles in their community and their neighbourhoods. It is
volunteers that bring out the best in a community and make it the best it can
be.
I want to
thank all the dedicated volunteers out there for making a difference and setting
a great example, and I want to encourage more people to do the same. My
colleagues in the Tri-City caucus and I have been working alongside the
community volunteer connections, the society for community development, Arts
Connect and the Tri-Cities Chamber of Commerce. Each of our municipalities has
expressed support and is considering financial and technical support.
I want to
thank the member for New Westminster for showing a great example that has
inspired us. I want to thank our major sponsors for supporting and promoting the
event and allowing us to make it happen, including the Coquitlam Centre, the Tri-City
News , the Coquitlam NOW , Visual Planet Design Group and others yet to
come.
[1410]
I'd like to
encourage any person or organization interested in participating or sponsoring
the event to contact Cathy Lister at the community volunteer centre or to
contact my constituency office or the office of any of my Tri-City MLA
colleagues to get registered. Space is limited and is filling up very quickly.
I want to
encourage everyone to come out to learn about the organizations and clubs in our
community that make it great, and I want to encourage every individual to get
involved in some way. Take a little bit of time out of your busy life to get
involved in something
[ Page 10062 ]
you care about. It'll make a concrete difference in the world around you.
I hope
Volunteer Fest on April 24, to be held this year on the last day of National
Volunteer Week, will become a catalyst for a stronger, more involved community
for Coquitlam, Port Coquitlam, Port Moody, Anmore and Belcarra.
METHAMPHETAMINE USE
Mayencourt: There's an enemy that has invaded our streets and our homes in
British Columbia. Last year that enemy killed too many people in our province,
and in the first three months of this year we're on pace to double the number of
deaths as a result of this enemy.
The enemy I
talk about today has street names like crystal, ice, glass, meth and shard. It's
a drug called methamphetamine. It's cheap, it's toxic, and it's very addictive.
It can induce violent and psychotic behaviour in users, and it can cause lasting
brain damage and even death.
The United
Nations estimates that worldwide the number of people who have used crystal meth
in the last year is 34 million. Combined with its sister drug ecstasy, global
abuse exceeds that of heroin and cocaine. In my own city of Vancouver, 71
percent of the street-entrenched youth have used crystal meth, and a shocking
number of high school students across this province have experimented with it.
We as a
government are moving against this enemy. This government is committed to
action, and this government is committed to helping the casualties of this drug
in our cities. I'm proud to say that this government will be co-hosting a
western summit on methamphetamine with a methamphetamine response committee out
of my neighbourhood. We'll bring together health care workers, social service
providers, policy-makers, community organizations and law enforcement to develop
a collaborative and holistic approach to addressing the use and production of
methamphetamine in western Canada.
When we
merged health services and addiction, we made a conscious choice. We recognized
that issues around addiction are medical. By including social service providers,
community groups and law enforcement in this summit, we recognized that the
solutions to the crystal meth problem need to be both short term and some
long-term strategies, and that these solutions are for the health of our young
people and of our community.
Oral Questions
GOVERNMENT SPENDING ON
HEALTH CARE ADVERTISING
MacPhail: You can't turn on your TV, open up your mailbox or read a
newspaper without being inundated with an avalanche of charts and graphs
designed to pick a fight with doctors, with nurses and with health care workers.
Millions of dollars are being spent on these ads. But to date, the government
refuses to tell the public how much this is costing the taxpayer.
To the
Minister of Health. Cast his mind back to his briefing books. Can he remember
the
section on advertising costs, and can he tell us how much his government is
spending on health care costs? Just how much are these costing taxpayers?
Hon. C.
Hansen: If you go back to the last year of the NDP government, they had
budgeted about $23 million for advertising across government. Our budget is
actually down fairly significantly from that. The total cost to all of
government, for all ministries, for the advertising that's done through the
public affairs bureau is about $19 million. Included in that is all of the costs
of the health ads. It does not come out of the health care budget. It comes out
of the public affairs bureau budget.
MacPhail: So $19 million in advertising. I expect there's a little twisting
on his comparison to previous years, but this government likes to pick and
choose its facts. That's for sure.
How about a
chart showing how wait times for surgeries have skyrocketed or one detailing the
huge increases in unemployment last month or a paycheque chart showing how
paycheques have gone down under the government? Or how about a chart showing how
little time the Premier spends in the Legislature? I'd like to see that chart.
Or how about a chart like this one…
Interjections.
[1415]
Deputy
Speaker: Order, please. Order.
MacPhail: …that shows deputy ministers in British Columbia are the highest
paid in all of Canada? To the Minister of Health — I'll send the chart over to
him — maximum payments for deputy ministers, highest in all of Canada, at the
same time that he's cutting wages for working people. How about replacing a
chart attacking nurses with this chart on deputy ministers' salaries under his
government?
Hon. C.
Hansen: The good news for British Columbians is that B.C. has led Canada in
job creation in the last two years together. If you compare that to when those
members were in government, when we saw job declines and jobs leaving British
Columbia…. For the first time in years we have seen people coming back to
British Columbia because of the opportunities in this province, as compared to
that government when people were leaving this province. You start looking at
economic growth in this province today, where we are not yet number one but we
are getting there, and contrast that to when the NDP were in power, when we went
from the number one economic growth province
[ Page 10063 ]
in Canada to number ten as a result of the leadership of the NDP.
Deputy
Speaker: Leader of the Opposition with a further supplemental.
MacPhail: I notice the minister didn't want to actually address the
question, but let's see what the unemployment rate was in May of 2001: 6.8
percent. What's the unemployment rate now? It's 7.9 percent and about to go up.
Seriously, seriously, the chart, the chart… It's so accurate. Deputy ministers
in British Columbia get paid more than anywhere else in all of Canada — more
than Ontario, more than Quebec — and the number of deputies that this
government pays has skyrocketed since they came into power, but you can't find
that anywhere in their ads. Nowhere. Absolutely none.
The
minister says the health care ads are all about getting the facts out. Well, if
he were telling the truth, he'd make an honest effort at getting his facts out.
The minister won't tell us how much the health care ads cost. Is he saying that
he can't isolate out the cost of the health care ads, or is he simply keeping it
a secret because he's embarrassed about putting health care money into ads that
simply don't tell the real truth about where their government is putting money?
Hon. C.
Hansen: There's actually quite a contrast to the advertising that we're
doing. We're actually providing factual information to British Columbians about
their health care system — unlike the ad I remember where when this member was
the Minister of Health in this province, she actually put herself in the ads.
You know, talk about self-promotion. I can assure the member that there is not
one dollar out of the Ministry of Health Services budget that is going into any
of the health ads that you have been seeing on TV or in terms of the information
that's been in the papers.
FUNDING FOR PICASSO CAFE
J. Kwan:
While the government spends millions on useless partisan advertising, extremely
useful programs for street kids and other kids — youth at risk — are being
axed. I want to ask the Minister of Human Resources about the closure of Picasso
Cafe because of his elimination of $180,000 in government grants — the cost of
one deputy minister. The Picasso Cafe has been an institution in Vancouver's
west side for more than 15 years, helping hundreds of troubled young people
improve their lives. The cafe had to shut its door, leaving these young people
outside in the cold. The government is heartless — we know that — but these
young people are very hopeful that it is the case that the Minister of Human
Resources…
Interjections.
Deputy
Speaker: Order, please. Order.
J. Kwan:
…will have a heart. Will the Minister of Human Resources agree to go back to
the table with the Picasso Cafe to work out an arrangement that keeps the cafe
open and at-risk youth employed?
Interjections.
[1420]
Deputy
Speaker: Order, please. Let's hear the answer.
Interjections.
Deputy
Speaker: Leader of the Opposition, would you please come to order. Let's
hear the minister.
Hon. S.
Hagen: The Picasso Cafe themselves have said that they want to get out of
the restaurant business and into the job-training business. The reality is that
we're still delivering services to these students in Vancouver, and we deliver
these job-training services through MOSAIC, Immigrant Services Society of B.C.,
Vancouver Eastside Educational Enrichment Society, the YWCA…
Interjections.
Deputy
Speaker: Member, please come to order. Let's hear the answer.
Hon. S.
Hagen: …the N.V. Food and Service Resource Group. I can tell you that we
spend $6 million a year delivering these services to the people who need these
services in Vancouver. Included in those services are basic life skills, a job
search skill, specific skills training, job placement and follow-up supports. We
believe that, for anybody, a job is always better than welfare.
Deputy
Speaker: The member for Vancouver–Mount Pleasant with a supplemental
question.
J. Kwan:
Yes, a job is always better than welfare, and that is what Picasso Cafe was
doing before this government cut its grant — a grant of $180,000. That's why
they're closing.
Vancouver's
downtown east side is one of our province's poorest communities and harbours
many young people facing incredibly difficult challenges. Already two out of
three safe houses for at-risk youth on the downtown east side have been closed.
Part of our job here is to ensure that these young people are given the chances
and opportunities they need to find success. The Picasso Cafe is all about
giving troubled young people with no work experience a chance in life, a chance
to develop life skills they otherwise would not have been offered.
Again to
the Minister of Human Resources: let's put the partisanship aside. On behalf of
these young people, would he please announce in the House today that he's going
to take steps to find a way to keep the Picasso Cafe open and running for
troubled young people?
[ Page 10064 ]
Interjections.
Deputy
Speaker: Order, please. Let's hear the answer.
Hon. S.
Hagen: What I am pleased to announce to the House today is that this
government has actually spent $300 million on job-training programs over the
last three years. This government does recognize that many of the youth
participating in that program have specific barriers to employment. That's why
we're providing services to these young people through the Vancouver
training-for-jobs program, the community assistance program and the bridging
employment program. This government is committed to performance-based contracts
for job training, and the Picasso Cafe is perfectly welcome to bid on any of
these requests that come out for future contract opportunities.
MINING ACTIVITIES IN PARKS
Nettleton: I would like to ask the Minister of State for Mining to clarify
the Moving Forward 2006 provincial parks development policy proposal being
considered by the Premier and caucus. When I first received access to a leaked
e-mail document being circulated in caucus on Monday, I thought it was an April
Fool's joke. Then I thought it must be a sign that freedom of expression is
finally being allowed in caucus for such harebrained schemes to be distributed
among members.
Interjections.
Nettleton: It seems like I've touched a nerve, Mr. Speaker.
Interjections.
Deputy
Speaker: Order, please. Let's hear the question.
Nettleton: A scheme seemingly intended to rip up and sell off portions of
our provincial parks, including Windy Craggy and the world famous Tatshenshini
provincial park, for the benefit of the mining industry — this despite the
government's new-era commitment to ensure that parks are safe from mining and
logging.
[1425]
Does the
Minister of State for Mining personally support the mining of provincial parks?
I hope he has the courage to stand up and answer.
Hon. R.
Neufeld: It's a pleasure to answer this question. Our policy in this
government is that there is no mining in parks of British Columbia. We committed
to that during the election under the leadership of Premier Campbell, and we'll
continue moving forward with that.
But the
thing that surprises me is that it took this long for this member to realize
that you can come up with ideas in his caucus and actually talk about them.
That's the April fool's joke we see here today. He just woke up to that thing.
SAFETY OF TRANS-CANADA HIGHWAY
BETWEEN PRITCHARD AND CHASE
Krueger: During the Leader of the Opposition's harangue, I was thinking
about Mike Harcourt's promise to four-lane the Trans-Canada Highway from
Kamloops to the Alberta border and thinking how, when she was….
Interjections.
Deputy
Speaker: Order, please. Let's have some order.
Krueger: Three women from my constituency were killed last summer in a motor
vehicle crash in the area of Hoffman's bluff on the Trans-Canada Highway. Those
three women died because when that member was Minister of Finance, she failed to
put money into keeping Mike Harcourt's promise. We have deadly dangerous
stretches of the Trans-Canada Highway through British Columbia, and seven people
died in that area — the area from Pritchard to Chase — last year. That
member did not put money….
Interjection.
Krueger: That member heckles me while I'm talking about women who have died
in my constituency because of her negligence. I've been very concerned about
this for a long time.
Interjection.
Deputy
Speaker: Order, please, member. Leader of the Opposition, please come to
order.
Krueger: I've been working on this issue for years. I know that our
government plans to do something about it. It's an expensive fix. When these
people were spending $363 million on fast ferries, when they sunk $300 million
into a defunct pulp mill, when they did all these things, they weren't thinking
about the safety of my constituents.
Deputy
Speaker: Question, member. Let's have a question.
Krueger: I'd like to know from our Minister of Transportation: what are we
going to do about Hoffman's bluff and this dangerous stretch of the Trans-Canada
Highway?
Hon. K.
Falcon: I do know that the member for Kamloops–North Thompson and, indeed,
the Leader of the Opposition would love me to correct one little piece of
information there. Actually, the previous govern-
[ Page 10065 ]
ment blew almost $500 million on the fast ferries, and I know we wouldn't
want to lowball that number.
Actually,
as the member for Kamloops–North Thompson knows, safety is the number one
priority for the Ministry of Transportation. Shortly after I was fortunate
enough to assume this position, the member for Kamloops–North Thompson was
very expedient in visiting my office and bringing to my attention the real
challenge with Hoffman's bluff, and I appreciated that.
I am
pleased to let the member know that that particular section, which is about
three kilometres of the No. 1 highway, is going to have some improvements
undertaken immediately. We will have those improvements completed by the summer.
Those improvements will include median rumble strips, double-solid centre lines,
and increased signing and repaving. That will be some very positive news in
terms of reducing crashes, and I think it will also make the road safer for
those New Democrats who are trying to rush down to join the Liberal Party.
[End
of question period.]
Interjections.
Deputy
Speaker: Let's have order, please.
Interjections.
Deputy
Speaker: Order, please.
Tabling Documents
Hon. S.
Bond: In accordance with
section 14 of the Budget Transparency and
Accountability Act, I am pleased to table the Simon Fraser University Surrey
Central City Campus Major Capital Project Plan .
[1430]
Motions on Notice
POWERS OF
CROWN CORPORATIONS COMMITTEE
Hon. G.
Collins: By leave, I move Motion 107 standing in my name in the Votes and
Proceedings . It's the appointment motion for the Select Standing Committee
on Crown Corporations.
[That the Select Standing Committee on Crown Corporations be
appointed to review the annual reports and service plans of British Columbia
Crown Corporations.
In addition to the powers previously conferred upon the
Select Standing Committee on Crown Corporations, the Committee be empowered:
(
a) to appoint of their number, one or more subcommittees
and to refer to such subcommittees any of the matters referred to the
Committee;
(
b) to sit during a period in which the House is adjourned,
during the recess after prorogation until the next following Session and
during any sitting of the House;
(
c) to adjourn from place to place as may be convenient; and
(
d) to retain personnel as required to assist the Committee,
and shall report to the House as soon as possible or
following any adjournment, or at the next following Session, as the case may
be; to deposit the original of its reports with the Clerk of the Legislative
Assembly during a period of adjournment and upon resumption of the sittings of
the House, the Chair shall present all reports to the Legislative Assembly.]
Leave
granted.
Motion
approved.
REFERRAL OF REPORTS TO COMMITTEES AND
POWERS OF PUBLIC ACCOUNTS COMMITTEE
Hon. G.
Collins: I move, with leave, Motion 108 standing in my name in the Votes
and Proceedings . It's a motion that refers the reports of the auditor
general to the Public Accounts Committee and charges the Public Accounts
Committee as well.
[1. That the reports of the Auditor General of British
Columbia deposited with the Speaker of the Legislative Assembly during the
Fifth session of the Thirty-Seventh parliament be deemed referred to the
Select Standing Committee on Public Accounts, with the exception of the report
referred to in
section 22 of the Auditor General Act which is referred to the
Select Standing Committee on Finance and Government Services, and in addition
that the following reports of the Auditor General of British Columbia be
referred to the Select Standing Committee on Public Accounts:
• Auditor General Report No. 4, 2003/2004 Alternative
Payments to Physicians: A Program in Need of Change (November 2003)
• Auditor General Report No. 5, 2003/2004 Monitoring the
Government's Finances (December 2003)
• Auditor General Report No. 6, 2003/2004 Audit of the
Government's Review of Eligibility for Disability Assistance (February 2004)
• First Follow-up Report on Managing Interface Fire
Risks (June 2001)
• First Follow-up Report on Transportation in Greater
Vancouver: A Review of Agreements Between the Province and TransLink, and of
TransLink's Governance Structure (August 2001)
2. That the Select Standing Committee on Public Accounts be
the committee referred to in sections 2, 6, 7, 10, 13 and 14 of the Auditor
General Act.
In addition to the powers previously conferred upon the
Select Standing Committee on Public Accounts, the Committee be empowered:
(
a) to appoint of their number, one or more subcommittees
and to refer to such subcommittees any of the matters referred to the
Committee;
(
b) to sit during a period in which the House is
adjourned, during the recess after prorogation until the next following
Session and during any sitting of the House;
(
c) to adjourn from place to place as may be convenient;
and
(
d) to retain personnel as required to assist the
Committee,
and shall report to the House as soon as possible, or
following any adjournment, or at the next following Session, as the case may
be; to deposit the original of its re-
[ Page 10066 ]
ports with the Clerk of the Legislative Assembly during a
period of adjournment and upon resumption of the sittings of the House, the
Chair shall present all reports to the Legislative Assembly.]
Leave
granted.
Motion
approved.
POWERS OF HEALTH COMMITTEE
Hon. G.
Collins: I move, with leave, Motion 109 standing in my name in the Votes
and Proceedings . It is the motion to charge the Select Standing Committee on
Health.
[That the Select Standing Committee on Health be empowered
to examine, inquire into and make recommendations with respect to finding
effective strategies to change behaviour and encourage people to adopt
lifelong health habits that will both improve their health and sustain the
health care system.
1. Conduct consultations and report on recommendations from
the Select Standing Committee on Health Reports from 2001 and 2002.
• Investigate other successful health promotion
campaigns in other jurisdictions to analyze their potential effectiveness in
BC.
• Undertake discussions on how to promote "healthy
lifestyles" including the appropriate use of incentives and
disincentives to help influence public behaviour.
2. Consider any potential financial savings to the Health
Care system as a result of improved fitness of the general population and
children and youth in particular.
In addition to the powers previously conferred upon the
Select Standing Committee on Health, the Committee shall be empowered:
(
a) to appoint of their number, one or more subcommittees
and to refer such subcommittees any of the matters referred to the
Committee;
(
b) to sit during a period in which the House is adjourned
and during any sitting of the House;
(
c) to adjourn from place to place as may be convenient;
and
(
d) to retain such personnel as required to assist the
Committee,
and shall report to the House no later than November 25,
2004 to deposit the original of its reports with the Clerk of the Legislative
Assembly during a period of adjournment and upon resumption of the sittings of
the House, the Chair shall present all reports to the Legislative Assembly.]
Leave
granted.
Motion
approved.
POWERS OF FINANCE AND
GOVERNMENT SERVICES COMMITTEE
Hon. G.
Collins: I move Motion 110, by leave, standing in my name in the Votes
and Proceedings . It is the motion to appoint the Select Standing Committee
on Finance and Government Services.
[That the Select Standing Committee on Finance and
Government Services be empowered:
1. To examine, inquire into and make recommendations with
respect to the pre-budget consultation report prepared by the Minister of
Finance in accordance with
section 2 of the Budget Transparency and
Accountability Act and, in particular, to:
(
a) Conduct public consultations across British Columbia
on proposals and recommendations regarding the provincial budget and fiscal
policy for the coming fiscal year by any means the committee considers
appropriate, including but not limited to public meetings, telephone and
electronic means;
(
b) Prepare a report no later than November 15, 2004 on
the results of those consultations; and
2. (
a) To consider and make recommendations on the annual
reports, rolling three-year service plans and budgets of the following
statutory officers:
• Auditor General
• Chief Electoral Officer
• Conflict of Interest Commissioner
• Information and Privacy Commissioner
• Ombudsman
• Police Complaint Commissioner; and,
(
b) To examine, inquire into and make recommendations with
respect to other matters brought to the Committee's attention by any of the
Officers listed in 2(
a) above.
(
c) That the Select Standing Committee on Finance and
Government Services be the committee referred to in sections 19, 20, 21 and 23
of the Auditor General Act and that the performance report in
section 22 of
the Auditor General Act be referred to the committee.
In addition to the powers previously conferred upon the
Select Standing Committee on Finance and Government Services, the committee
shall be empowered:
(
a) to appoint of their number one or more subcommittees
and refer to such subcommittees any of the matters referred to the
committee;
(
b) to sit during a period in which the House is adjourned
and during any sitting of the House;
(
c) to adjourn from place to place as may be convenient;
and
(
d) to retain personnel as required to assist the
committee,
and shall report to the House as soon as possible, or
following any adjournment or at the next following session, as the case may
be, to deposit the original of its reports with the Clerk of the Legislative
Assembly during a period of adjournment and upon resumption of the sittings of
the House, the Chair shall present all reports to the Legislative Assembly.]
Leave
granted.
Motion
approved.
POWERS OF EDUCATION COMMITTEE
Hon. G.
Collins: By leave, I move Motion 111 standing in my name in the Votes and
Proceedings. It's a motion to charge the Select Standing Committee on
Education.
[That the Select Standing Committee on Education be
empowered to examine, inquire into and make recommendations on the following
matters:
1. (
a) To follow up on the 2002 recommendations of A Future
for Learners: A Vision for the Renewal of Education in British Columbia; and,
in particular;
[ Page 10067 ]
(
b) Based on the 2002 recommendation for a process for
public post-secondary institutions to report back to the Select Standing
Committee on Education on the enhanced tuition revenues to benefit students,
the Committee is hereby empowered to request and receive reports on this
matter from public post-secondary institutions.
2. The Committee may consider any other matters referred to
the Committee by the Minister of Education and the Minister of Advanced
Education.
3. The Committee shall prepare a report no later than
November 25, 2004 on the results of this review. In addition to the powers
previously conferred upon the Select Standing Committee on Education, the
Committee shall be empowered:
(
a) to appoint of their number, one or more subcommittees
and to refer such subcommittees any of the matters referred to the
Committee;
(
b) to sit during a period in which the House is adjourned
and during any sitting of the House;
(
c) to adjourn from place to place as may be convenient;
and
(
d) to retain such personnel as required to assist the
Committee,
and shall report to the House as soon as possible, or
following any adjournment or at the next following Session, as the case may
be; to deposit the original of its reports with the Clerk of the Legislative
Assembly during a period of adjournment and upon resumption of the sittings of
the House, the Chair shall present all reports to the Legislative Assembly.]
Leave
granted.
Motion
approved.
Orders of the Day
Hon. G.
Collins: I call second reading of Bill 16. As well, I call Committee
A. For the information of members, they'll be continuing the debate on the
Ministry of Education.
Second Reading of Bills
WATER, LAND AND AIR PROTECTION
STATUTES AMENDMENT ACT, 2004
Hon. B.
Barisoff: The amendments contained in this bill continue to modernize the
province's environmental management. They improve the efficiency and
effectiveness of a number of ministry functions. These changes have been
developed on the advice from solicitors and the Attorney General, who have been
working with my staff in the ministry on general review of the legislation. The
review of this has been going on for the last three years, and a number of major
legislative changes have come out of that review.
Some of
those changes were enacted last year, and the process of change is continuing
this year. Given the size and scope of changes made last year when we replaced
the 20-year-old Waste Management Act with the Environmental Management Act, some
fine-tuning before the act is brought into force should be expected. The
amendments I am introducing today focus on authorities under five statutes: the
Environmental Management Act, the Integrated Pest Management Act, the Ecological
Reserve Act, the Park Act and the Wildlife Act.
The
Environmental Management Act and the Integrated Pest Management Act were
introduced and enacted last year. These changes represent a continuation of the
development and fine-tuning of these new statutes in order to ensure a smooth
transition when they are brought into force. Changes to the Park Act, Ecological
Reserve Act and Wildlife Act will harmonize certain compliance authorities in
those acts with the new features contained in the Environmental Management Act
and the Integrated Pest Management Act.
addition, the proposed amendments will make a number of other changes to bring
these older statutes up to date and to provide clear language and address
questions of
interpretation. Changes to the Environmental Management Act will
clarify conservation officers' authority to provide compliance and enforcement
services under various government statutes with approval of the Solicitor
General through the Lieutenant-Governor-in-Council.
This
provides much greater flexibility to the conservation officers as circumstances
change over time, amends the definition of the term "conservation
officer" in the act to ensure that special auxiliary officers do not
unintentionally receive the general powers of conservation officers, and
clarifies the circumstances under which search warrants may be issued. These
changes will reduce the likelihood of constitutional challenges.
[1435]
Changes to
both the Environmental Management Act and the Integrated Pest Management Act
will limit the application of provisions of the Offence Act to instances where
property is seized as evidence as part of an investigation of possible or
alleged offence. The Offence Act requires that the items seized by peace
officers be brought to the attention of a judge. However, this judicial
reporting requirement was never intended to apply to the taking of samples for
regulatory inspection and monitoring purposes.
The
amendment will ensure that the Offence Act reporting procedures will not apply
to routine taking of samples for inspection purposes. This will greatly relieve
the administrative burden that would, without amendment, be created by the
Environmental Management Act when it's brought into force.
Changes to
the Wildlife Act will revise the definition of "resident" in the act
to clarify that to qualify under this definition, persons must have lived in the
province for a certain period of the year leading up to the date in which the
application is made. They will clarify that
section 75, "Accidental killing
of wildlife," is intended only as a reporting requirement and does not in
itself authorize the killing or wounding of wildlife. Any accidental kill such
as an animal crossing a highway must be reported to a constable, conservation
officer or regional office.
Finally,
the following changes will apply to the Environmental Management Act, the
Integrated Pest Management Act, the Wildlife Act and the Ecological
[ Page 10068 ]
Reserve Act: delete redundant instances of the phrase "and the
regulations" occurring after the phrase "under this act" to avoid
any unintended judicial
interpretation of the redundant phrase; harmonize the
limitation periods for laying charges under the acts by amending the relevant
provisions to provide for a limitation period of three years from the time of
the offence or 18 months from the time the alleged offence comes to the
minister's attention. This will provide certainty regarding the time limits
available to initiate prosecutions and will reflect consistent policy.
This
province needs clear and consistent environmental legislation. These changes are
important steps that improve the legislation of the Ministry of Water, Land and
Air Protection — make it more responsive. They promote greater efficiency and
provide improved clarity. These changes ensure consistent stewardship of our
natural resources for all British Columbians.
Mr.
Speaker, I move second reading.
Motion
approved.
Hon. B.
Barisoff: I move that the bill be referred to a Committee of the Whole House
to be considered at the next sitting of the House after today.
Bill 16,
Water, Land and Air Protection Statutes Amendment Act, 2004, read a second time
and referred to a Committee of the Whole House for consideration at the next
sitting of the House after today.
Hon. G.
Plant: I call second reading of Bill 18.
MISCELLANEOUS STATUTES
AMENDMENT ACT, 2004
Hon. G.
Plant: I move that the bill be now read a second time.
This is a
miscellaneous statutes amendment act, and as is the usual practice in the case
of omnibus legislation, I will provide an overview of the changes in the bill. I
expect that if there is any significant debate about those changes, we can have
that debate at the committee stage when we proceed through the bill on a
section-by-section basis. Let me provide an overview of what this bill will do.
Rather than do it numerically, we'll do it to the extent possible by subject
matter or by category.
First, in
order to facilitate the coming into force of the new Business Corporations Act,
this bill makes minor housekeeping changes to that Business Corporations Act,
the College and Institute Act, the Private Managed Forest Land Act, the Royal
Roads University Act and the University Act. These are primarily
cross-referencing changes in keeping with the fact that the name of the old
Company Act is being changed to the Business Corporations Act.
Second, a
minor
section reference error in the Community Care and Assisted Living Act is
corrected.
[1440]
Third,
consequential to the repeal of the Community Financial Services Act — the act
which established the Four Corners Community Savings institution in the downtown
east side of Vancouver — amendments are proposed here to the Corporation
Capital Tax Act; the Finance and Corporate Relations Statutes Amendment Act,
1999; the Financial Information Act; the Freedom of Information and Protection
of Privacy Act; the
Interpretation Act; and the Miscellaneous Statutes Amendment
Act (No. 2), 1999.
Let me say
something about the repeal of the Community Financial Services Act. The Four
Corners savings institution, sometimes called Four Corners Bank, was established
in 1996 to provide banking services to the residents of the downtown east side
of Vancouver. Unfortunately, although the government has given Four Corners
every opportunity to succeed, including investing $11.6 million in it to date,
the institution continues to incur ongoing losses. The bank was supposed to
become self-sustaining after five years. It's now year seven, and that still
hasn't happened. Indeed, with Four Corners' assets sinking close to the $5
million minimum required to operate a financial institution in the province, the
bank is at risk of being shut down by the Financial Institutions Commission.
It's our
government's commitment to use tax dollars efficiently, productively and
effectively. From that perspective, no government could ask — and this
government will not ask — the taxpayers of British Columbia to support an
enterprise which, sadly but unfortunately, is realistically unsustainable.
Accordingly, we are left with no viable alternative but to close the bank.
However,
that is not the end of the road for those who have depended on the bank's
services. The government will continue to support those who are working to
improve living conditions in the downtown east side of Vancouver. Four Corners
clients have been informed of the closure, and bank staff have been assisting in
transferring accounts and helping people make other banking arrangements.
Letters were sent to bank patrons. Signs were posted throughout the downtown
east side, and ads were placed in Vancouver-area newspapers. Ministry of Human
Resources staff have worked to ensure that clients are aware of the range of
options available to them.
We are
especially pleased that VanCity Savings is collaborating with the Portland Hotel
Society, a local community service society, to operate a branch of VanCity in
the downtown east side. This government has been assisting VanCity Savings in
every way possible in order to ensure a smooth transition from Four Corners to
the new Pigeon Park Savings branch. I am confident that every effort is and has
been made, and will continue to be made, to minimize the impact of the bank's
closure on its clients and on the community it has tried to serve. As I've
indicated, however, the institution is unsustainable, and because of that,
government has no choice but to close it.
Bill 18
also makes a change to the Crown Proceeding Act, transferring the responsibility
to report to the Legislature on payments made under that act to the Attorney
General from the Ministry of Finance. This
[ Page 10069 ]
legislative change will better reflect the existing ministerial
responsibility for expenditures under the Crown Proceeding Act.
Bill 18
corrects minor drafting errors in the Health Professions Amendment Act, 2003, an
act which enacted significant changes to the Health Professions Act in response
to the recommendations of the former Health Professions Council.
Next, Bill
18 amends the Hydro and Power Authority Act to increase B.C. Hydro's business
flexibility and to eliminate duplication and overlap. These changes will allow
the corporation to become more efficient and cost-effective, and will also
assist the corporation and government to implement a provincial energy plan by
supporting low-cost electricity.
Bill 18
also makes three distinct additional changes to the
Interpretation Act, which is
the provincial statute that provides guidance for interpreting other provincial
statutes. These changes include the addition of a new provision to clarify what
is to happen when a bill is set to come into force on a date that is earlier
than the date on which that bill receives royal assent.
[1445]
The changes
in the
Interpretation Act also change the definition of "newspaper,"
which is a longstanding definition found in the
Interpretation Act that is then
relied upon by other statutes where there are statutory obligations to publish
notice of pending transactions or activities. The operation of that definition
and the wording of the definition, as it has existed for many years, have
limited the definition of "newspaper" to publications that had
subscription lists or were paid for; that is, where you had to buy the paper.
The
newspaper business has changed a lot over the past number of years in British
Columbia, and the result is that across the province there are many, many very
valuable community newspapers that are, to all intents and purposes, distributed
free of charge. That's certainly true in my community of Richmond. We have two
very good newspapers: the Richmond News and the Richmond Review .
They're both newspapers that land on my doorstep and on the doorsteps of many
people in Richmond at least…. I think it's twice a week for both papers.
They've done so for many years. I don't pay to receive them, but they are very
important tools for communication in my community. They are important vehicles
for learning about what's going on in the community and a very valuable way to
reach the citizens of my community.
What we're
proposing here in the change that is part of this bill is to change the
definition of newspaper so that it no longer excludes these community papers.
That will allow people who have to publish notices of things in newspapers a
wider range of choice in where they are to publish and, in some communities,
will ensure that the notice will actually be published directly in the community
where notice needs to be given.
I've
already referred to the change in the
Interpretation Act which eliminates the
reference to Four Corners from the definition of "savings
institution."
The Jury
Act has long contained disqualification provisions — provisions that limit the
ability of a very small group of citizens in the province to serve on juries.
Usually we're talking about people who have law or administration of justice
responsibilities. What we're doing in this bill is amending the Jury Act so that
employees of the federal Department of Justice are disqualified from eligibility
to sit on a jury. We're also clarifying that with respect to jury eligibility,
employees of youth custody centres will also be ineligible. And I think there is
a regulation-making power being introduced to ensure that as the federal
government or this government reorganize themselves from time to time, we have
the ability to, by regulation, make the changes necessary to ensure that justice
system personnel who ought not to be members of juries because of their jobs and
their work are not eligible for jury service.
Bill 18
makes a minor housekeeping change to the Land Title Act by removing a reference
in a particular
section to the Attorney General and replacing it with a
reference to the word "minister." The result of this change is that
the
section will be read to mean the minister responsible for the section, and
at this point that means the Minister of Sustainable Resource Management.
addition, Bill 18 makes minor changes to the Social Workers Act. These changes
focus on the Board of Registration for Social Workers and ensure that that board
does not unintentionally lose jurisdiction due to vacancies on the board. It
also extends the appointment of board members from one year to maximum
three-year terms.
Bill 18
also amends the Tobacco Sales Act so that it fits better with recent amendments
made to the Tobacco Tax Act. The Tobacco Sales Act's definition of the word
"authorization" is altered to reflect the use of that term in the
Tobacco Tax Act.
Bill 18
makes changes to the Trinity Western University Act regarding the authority and
mandate of Trinity Western University in Langley. This amendment is intended to
streamline the degree program review process for Trinity Western's academic,
baccalaureate and graduate degrees. This change ensures consistency with the
government's recently enacted Degree Authorization Act and helps government meet
its commitment to a more efficient and integrated post-secondary education
system.
[1450]
The Workers
Compensation Act is also changed by Bill 18, in three distinct ways. First,
given the high volume of cases handled by the review division, the chief review
officer is given the power to delegate her duties to staff with the appropriate
limitations and conditions.
Second, a
past drafting oversight will be corrected in that workers and employers in the
commercial fishing industry will be given access to the new workers compensation
appeal system, including the Workers Compensation Appeal Tribunal, on the same
basis as other workers and employers in British Columbia have access to that
system.
Third, the
bill removes an unwieldy requirement that the Workers Compensation Appeal
Tribunal must
[ Page 10070 ]
not retain a health professional to provide independent assistance or advice
if that person has treated or is treating a member of the worker's family.
Instead, the tribunal will be required to meet the standards set by another
provision, which is that a health professional not be used in circumstances that
could result in a reasonable apprehension of bias. That general principle is
sufficient to ensure that the system has integrity and that health professionals
are not, in effect, arbitrarily restricted from providing assistance or advice
in cases where that assistance or advice may be helpful.
Finally,
Bill 18 validates a bylaw that was enacted and ratified by the Association of
Professional Engineers and Geoscientists back in 1992, before the provision of
the Engineers and Geoscientists Act authorized that bylaw to be made.
Motion
approved.
Hon. G.
Plant: I move that the bill be referred to a Committee of the Whole House to
be considered at the next sitting of the House after today.
Bill
18, Miscellaneous Statutes Amendment Act, 2004, read a second time and referred
to a Committee of the Whole House for consideration at the next sitting of the
House after today.
Hon. C.
Hansen: I call estimates debate. For the information of members, we'll be
debating the estimates of the Ministry of Human Resources.
Committee of Supply
The House
in Committee of Supply B; J. Weisbeck in the chair.
The
committee met at 2:55 p.m.
ESTIMATES: MINISTRY OF
HUMAN RESOURCES
(continued)
On vote 27:
ministry operations, $1,301,425,000 (continued) .
MacPhail: Thanks to the minister for giving me the chronology of time limits
materials posted on the ministry Internet site. We ended off in discussions
around the manual amendment, letter No. 16, and the e-mail of February 10 on
case management process. I was asking the link between the two.
Hon. S.
Hagen: The question posed by the Leader of the Opposition regarding whether
employment and assistance workers have tools/information/instruc-tions available
to them regarding application of time limits policy. The member referred to an
e-mail ADM message "case management process" from ADM Alison Meredith
to all regional services division staff. The e-mail refers to details of the
interview and related case management processes and can be found in a practice
advisory posted on the field guide; URL address — Web link — is listed.
The member
infers that this URL is not available, and thus staff do not have the
information required to do their jobs. The URL links to an internal ministry
intranet site with access limited to MHR employees. The link is live and
available to staff with correct access authorization, which includes MHR field
staff. The field guide is an internal tool with access to all related
documentation, template letters for staff to use and links to the legislation,
regulation and policy manual. The electronic field guide provides an excellent
tool for staff to use to ensure information is current and accessible. The newly
introduced electronic on-line resource guide will provide even more
state-of-the-art electronic information tools for employees.
"The
practice advisory advised" — first of all, originally dated February 10
and updated February 27 of this year — "clarification that ongoing
eligibility for assistance is dependent upon compliance with the terms and
conditions of the employment plan. The employment plan and its effective
management are critical to ensuring clients have supports needed to move
towards sustainable employment.
"Expectation
that intensified case management be undertaken with clients reaching the
24-month time limit to ensure that they have updated employment plans and that
their personal circumstances are reviewed to determine why they have not found
employment….
"Clarifies
that clients in compliance with the employment plan will not have the time
limit policy imposed….
"Describes
procedures for ensuring that clients are contacted by telephone and letter to
set up interview appointments to assess employability, review compliance with
their employment plans, apply sanctions where appropriate and make referrals
to job placement service providers as required….
"Expectations
clearly stated that all clients are to be contacted and interviewed by the
last working day of the month and instructions about follow-up…."
"Instructions
about reviewing clients' employability and consideration whether client is, in
fact, temporarily excused from looking for work or should be considered to be
a person with persistent multiple barriers…."
The
question: is practice advisory still being applied in the field? The answer is
yes. Standards require that employment plans for clients at 24-month eligibility
time count are reviewed every 30 days.
[K.
Stewart in the chair.]
MacPhail: Good. Thanks. The policy manual amendment letter No. 16, I want
to…. Perhaps the minister needs to isolate out portions of his answer for
this. It said that the purpose is to introduce important changes to the B.C.
employment and assistance program effective February 6, 2004. It concerns
employment obligations, and it states that changes have been made to three
sections of the manual.
Can the
minister outline what those three sections are and the nature of the changes?
[1500]
Hon. S.
Hagen: The first one is
part 6,
section 1, the application and employment
plan. In order to continue
[ Page 10071 ]
receiving assistance, clients who are expected to work must also continue to
meet the employment-related obligations as set out in
section 13 of the
Employment and Assistance Act,
section 12 of the EAPWD Act.
Secondly,
under
part 6,
section 5(a), clients must be advised of the conditions of the
employment plan and that complying with the provisions of the employment plan is
a condition of eligibility. Clients must also be advised of their
employment-related obligations as set out in the EA Act,
section 13, and the
EAPWD Act,
section 12. Refer to
part 7,
section 7, eligibility employment.
Thirdly,
part 7,
section 6, eligibility and sanctions. Sanctions for employment-related
obligations — sections 9 and 13 of the EA Act and sections 9 and 12 of the
EAPWD Act. Clients with employment-related obligations are required to fulfil
both the requirements set out in
section 9, EP;
section 13, employment-related
obligations, of the EA Act; and sections 9 and 12 of the Employment and
Assistance for Persons with Disabilities Act. A client can be non-compliant due
to their failure to meet employment-related obligations — for example, fails
to demonstrate reasonable work search or non-compliant due to their failure to
comply with the conditions of their employment plan; for example, must attend
school in the evening and does not fulfil the employment-related obligations;
for example, fails to demonstrate reasonable work search. Then the sanctions for
both sections 9 and 13 apply concurrently.
Note that
there may be legitimate situations in which the conditions of the EP prevent the
client from meeting the conditions of
section 13 of the EA Act. For example, the
client is attending a full-time, short-term course leaving very little time to
search for employment.
The wording
section 9, "subject to the conditions of an employment plan," means
that
section 9 takes precedence when the two are in conflict. Thus, if meeting
the conditions of an EP causes non-compliance with
section 13, sanctions should
not be applied. Refer to EP standards, sections D(1)(
a) and D(2)(a).
If the
client is declared ineligible under both sections 9 and 13 and appeals the
decision, two separate requests for reconsideration forms, HR100s, are required.
Applying
sanctions. Sanctions are applied from the date non-compliance is determined and
continue until the sanction time has elapsed. For example, if a client reapplies
for assistance one week after they are determined ineligible under
section 13,
they continue to be ineligible until the one-month sanction period has elapsed.
However, if the client reapplied for assistance three-months after they were
determined ineligible, then the sanction for
section 13 would not apply as the
one-month sanction period had already elapsed.
MacPhail: Is there any way the minister can kind of boil that down into
Interjection.
MacPhail: No, it's a plea.
Hon. S.
Hagen: It might be easier to translate it into Norwegian.
This is
public information. I'm pleased to share it with you. I don't know how I can
MacPhail: Let me approach it this way. If one takes away the sanction aspect
of it — I assume the sanction is that you no longer can collect welfare —
what else has changed? Those seem to be pretty familiar — to me anyway, but
maybe I'm wrong — requirements that have been in existence for quite a while.
[1505]
Hon. S.
Hagen: Let me try this. This describes employment plan versus employment
obligations. This may help. If you look at requirements first, under the
employment plan…. When required, all clients with employment-related
obligations are required to comply with the condition of their employment plan.
The employment-related obligations, then, under that are: all clients with
employment-related obligations are required to (
a) accept suitable employment,
(
b) not voluntarily leave employment without just cause, (
c) not be dismissed
from employment for just cause or (
d) demonstrate reasonable efforts to search
for employment.
Under the
sanctions part of it, under the employment plan part again…. Non-compliance
for failure to meet conditions of an employment plan results in ineligibility
for assistance for the entire family unit. Under the employment-related
obligations part of that, under sanctions…. Non-compliance for failure to meet
employment-related obligations (
a) results in ineligibility for income
assistance, disability assistance or hardship assistance for a specific time
period; or (
b) results in rate reductions dependent on family composition.
MacPhail: What kind of family unit would be subject to the two-year time
limit, given the 25 exemptions?
Hon. S.
Hagen: An employable family unit.
MacPhail: So that would mean a couple. Are there any kids that would be
affected by this? I'm curious. The minister just read that if one person of the
family unit falls out or has sanctions laid against him or her, then the entire
family unit is ineligible. What if any children could be involved in that
situation?
Hon. S.
Hagen: As long as one in the family unit is compliant, a couple would not be
affected by time limits, and that includes a couple with children as well.
MacPhail: The manual amendment states, as I understand it, that the changes
relate to the importance of monitoring. Can the minister explain how monitor-
[ Page 10072 ]
ing takes place now on these matters in comparison to how it would have been
carried out before? What are the changes?
Introductions by Members
The
Chair: At this time I would like to just take leave of the chair to make an
announcement. Present with us in the gallery is a group from Garibaldi high
school, which is the school in the riding next to me, from the member for Maple
Ridge–Mission. It's a school my daughter graduated from two years ago. I would
just like to introduce them. There are 39 students from Garibaldi's grade 9 and
10 class there, also accompanied by Ms. Gibeault, Mr. Hausknecht, Ms. Williams,
Mr. Bikic and Mr. Zuchetto. Would the House make them welcome.
[1510]
Debate Continued
Hon. S.
Hagen: The employment plan is the new part under BCEA, or B.C. employment
and assistance. It depends on the actions identified in the plan. Whether it is
reviewed once a month or once every two months, it depends on the work done
between our front-line worker and the client for reviewing and completing the
plan.
MacPhail: Is that all new?
Hon. S.
Hagen: Yes.
MacPhail: What's the change in caseload, then, for financial assistance
workers to carry out this new workload?
Hon. S.
Hagen: This can be carried out because the caseload of employable clients is
on the decline and has declined by 70 percent.
MacPhail: No, I'm asking what the caseload is per FAW who has to carry out
what the minister describes as new work.
Hon. S.
Hagen: I'm informed that we don't have that broken down. It depends on which
office it is, and I guess there are a lot of variables. We don't have that
information.
MacPhail: Is it that the minister just doesn't have it here or that the
ministry doesn't keep track of it? They used to. It was a major component of
deciding the work of an FAW.
Hon. S.
Hagen: I'm told that we don't track that or keep track of that any longer.
MacPhail: Well, then I expect that the minister was accusing me of sort of
taking the word of one FAW on the radio this morning and was saying that I was
out of order for taking that FAW's word that the pressure was on. How can the
minister possibly know whether front-line workers can carry out in a proper
monitoring fashion these — as the minister has described — new requirements
if there is no monitoring of the workload of FAWs?
Hon. S.
Hagen: Regional executive directors monitor and allocate the cases to the
front-line workers in each of the PWD offices. Depending on the office type, the
regional executive directors are responsible for that and monitor it.
MacPhail: What's the range of caseloads per FAW? What's the smallest
caseload level, and what's the highest?
Hon. S.
Hagen: We don't have that information, but we can get it for the Leader of
the Opposition.
[1515]
MacPhail: I'm really trying to get at what all of these changes are meaning
for people on the front line and clients as well. This is why I'm exploring all
of this. If the government is sincere about moving people from welfare to work,
then these employment plans which the minister seems to claim are new…. I
think the only aspect of this that's new is the penalty associated with it being
harsher than it was before. People did get removed from welfare if they weren't
looking for work or had an employment plan. I'm just trying to figure out how
this is going to work so that it's effective, at least toward the government's
goals.
Let me ask
some specific questions on how it will work on an individual basis. At the level
of an individual financial assistance client, what must the client demonstrate
in an employment plan in order to prove her eligibility for continued
assistance? What are the details?
Hon. S.
Hagen: The ministry has had a 70 percent decline in clients in the expected
work category and an overall caseload decline of 35 percent. This has obviously
created more time for the front-line workers to work with clients.
MacPhail: Well, that's only true if there is the same number of FAWs. That's
why I'm asking the question. The FAWs have been laid off; offices have been
closed. That's all I'm asking, but my question actually had moved on.
Shall I
repeat my question? I said: at the level of an individual financial assistance
client, what must the client demonstrate in an employment plan in order to prove
his or her eligibility for continued assistance? What does an employment plan
look like?
Hon. S.
Hagen: I will read into the record again, for the benefit of the member, key
messages of the part on employment plans:
[ Page 10073 ]
mandatory employment plan is designed to help increase the rate of leaving and
to reduce the rate of cycling back on to income assistance. The employment
plan focuses the effort of the ministry and the client on finding sustainable
employment. Clients who are compliant with their employment plan, who are
actively looking for work, will not be subject to time limits' consequences.
Most people don't want to be on welfare" — as I've said many times —
"but they may need assistance in finding a job. We want to make sure that
such clients are first in line for the jobs."
This is important.
"Ministry
staff develop the employment plan with the client using the employability
screen and the client employability profile. These have been specifically
developed to assist with employment planning. Staff work together with each
client on an employment plan that will provide specific direction and
suggestions to lead to employment and independence. Plans may include referral
to independent work-search, job placement or training-for-jobs programs as
well as non-ministry programs and services. Clients not required to have an
employment plan can access services by signing a voluntary participation plan,
which outlines steps to help the client prepare for and participate in future
employment."
[1520]
Here's what
a worker has said:
"As
an EAW, I completed many employment plans and find this a valuable tool. I
also find this provides clients with clear goals that they would achieve
either long- or short-term. Not only does the employment plan help the clients
who are employable — and those who have barriers have provided me with
positive feedback…. Some of the comments I recall are: 'This plan helped
them organize what they wanted to do and helped them deal with their barriers.
The conditions in their plan were simple ones but ones that were put together
by themselves with help from myself.'
"'I
referred them to local programs and provided information to them, and this was
outlined in their plan. This enabled the client to achieve some of their
goals. For example, one of my clients came in and thanked me for helping them
complete the employment plan and found it helped her gain some control of her
situation.'
"'Some
of my clients have put their copy of the employment plan on their refrigerator
as a motivating tool so that they knew where they were going or what they were
going to be doing that day.'
"'Several
clients have started working due to the conditions of their employment plan,
and as each client has unique circumstances, their employment plan is tailored
to their needs.'"
This is an e-mail received from an EA worker.
MacPhail: What's the date of the e-mail?
Hon. S.
Hagen: Today's date.
MacPhail: Then it's retroactive. I'm trying to figure out what's changed as
a result of this exemption being put in place. My experience is that these
employment plans have been required all along. Is that not correct?
Hon. S.
Hagen: Yes, that's correct.
MacPhail: That's what I'm getting at. What's changed here with these new
rules? Is it just the sanction that has changed? All those issues that the
minister read into the record have been in place for years — constantly
evolving, but employment plan requirements in place for years. There was also a
requirement for an employment plan, if one was employable, or else you didn't
get welfare. You got cut off welfare.
I'm trying
to figure out what's changed here. Is it the sanction that has changed?
Hon. S.
Hagen: Under B.C. Benefits there was no employment plan. The employment plan
in place now is a service screening tool and is an employability profile that
assesses the client's ability to work.
MacPhail: We actually have a couple of FAWs monitoring the debate, so we'll
see what they reply to that.
Every
single one of the requirements that the minister read into the record was in
place when I was Minister of Social Services, so I'm not quite sure what the
minister's talking about — that the employment plans weren't required. Maybe
they had a different name, but we had people dedicated to this. It's not like
the experts aren't watching.
Let me ask
this, then. What are the penalties — the new penalties and sanctions — now,
as of this morning? How has that changed?
Hon. S.
Hagen: I'm told that when the member opposite was the minister, there were
no employment plans in existence. The other tool that is being used is the
service screening tool I described before.
[1525]
MacPhail: I just find that unbelievable. I really find it unbelievable that
the bureaucracy is alleging that. I really do, and I take offence to it, quite
frankly. The front-line workers will tell you differently, and they're
monitoring this. In fact, we actually had financial assistance workers dedicated
as consultants to develop employment plans for clients. There was a specific
category of them, so I don't know how…. I don't have any idea what the
minister is alleging there.
Let's go to
the penalties and sanctions, then. How has that changed under this government?
Hon. S.
Hagen: I'm told that when the member opposite was the minister, there was
nothing formal with regard to an employment plan, that not every client was
referred to a training consultant. That has changed. Now every client has a
file, and every client is referred to a training consultant.
MacPhail: How many training consultants are there, and what's their
caseload?
Hon. S.
Hagen: Every worker works with clients on employment plans. We're getting
the exact number, but it is approximately 1,200 workers.
MacPhail: This is my third time asking this question. How have the penalties
and sanctions changed?
[ Page 10074 ]
Hon. S.
Hagen: One of the changes is that there is a stronger emphasis on seeking
work. We've asked to have the way it was done when the member across from me was
the minister compared to how we do it now, and we'll provide that in writing.
[1530]
MacPhail: I am asking about penalties and sanctions. I understand that this
is difficult, because it's a highly technical area, but the February 6, 2004,
manual amendment makes references to penalties and sanctions. What does it say
about penalties and sanctions? Are those new penalties and sanctions, and if so,
how are they new?
Hon. S.
Hagen: There were no new sanctions introduced on February 6, if that's the
question you're asking. The new exemption, the twenty-fifth exemption, has the
effect of extending people past their time limit as long as they are seeking
work. The sanction is not applied in these cases.
MacPhail: Is that what the amendment to the manual made on February 6 says?
It makes reference to sanctions and penalties. Is the reference that the
exemption precludes people from sanctions and penalties?
Hon. S.
Hagen: Yes.
MacPhail: The minister refers to EAWs. Is that the old FAW?
Hon. S.
Hagen: Apparently, it is.
MacPhail: Are EAWs expected to meet any kind of quota or target?
Hon. S.
Hagen: No, they don't have quotas or targets.
MacPhail: How does caseload reduction get monitored? How does one know that
one is meeting the target for this year's budget cut of almost $80 million? Does
it just happen?
Hon. S.
Hagen: My staff at headquarters monitor the numbers on a monthly basis
through the administrative data provided by the management information system.
We then look at it on a regional basis, on a monthly basis.
I just want
to remind the member opposite that the intent of time limits is not a punitive
thing. What we're doing is trying to encourage people to get into a job, to get
into work. The principles that guide time limits are the principles of
reasonableness, fairness and common sense.
MacPhail: What other jurisdiction in Canada has time limits for welfare?
Hon. S.
Hagen: British Columbia is a leader in this field.
[1535]
MacPhail: British Columbia is the only one. There is a good reason for that,
and it is because Canadians actually believe in a social safety net and payment
of last resort.
How many
people are expected to be excluded from the two-year rule as a result of the 25
exemptions?
Hon. S.
Hagen: We don't know the exact number at this time, but the projections are
that the people who will be sanctioned or removed from welfare over the period
of the next year, starting in late April, would be…. Our estimate is 339
people affected. I'm hoping the number will be lower, because I think what's
happened, even in the last two months, is that this has spurred people into
getting into the workforce.
MacPhail: Well, we have no idea whether they're getting into the workforce
or not, and the minister's own exit surveys demonstrate that. We'll get into
caseload questions in a minute.
The
minister said there is no incentive or target. Does anyone in his ministry at
any level get performance bonuses?
Hon. S.
Hagen: The deputy minister in my ministry receives a performance bonus.
MacPhail: Upon what basis is a performance bonus awarded to the Deputy
Minister of Human Resources?
Hon. S.
Hagen: There is no target in the deputy minister's plan for caseload
reduction. There are a number of items, though, including the ministry achieving
its allocated budget.
MacPhail: Yes. I'm not picking any aspect of bonus for the deputy minister,
but the budget reduction is about caseload reduction. There's no other way of
achieving the budget reduction — or is there?
Hon. S.
Hagen: Yes, the reason our budget is coming down is that we have fewer
people on our caseload.
[1540]
MacPhail: Well, that's not true yet. That's not true. The $79 million is a
cut for this coming year. Let's look at some of the information for the
caseload. Can the minister tell me what the caseload for social assistance for
the province is right now? The most recent figures I have are for February,
which is fine.
Hon. S.
Hagen: The latest numbers we have that are posted are January '04. The total
caseload, January '04, is 114,674.
[ Page 10075 ]
Mayencourt: I would like to get back to some earlier questions regarding
disability. In an earlier question the minister indicated there were roughly
9,000 new applicants or new recipients of disability benefits in British
Columbia. I'm wondering how many individuals applied for disability under this
new form of benefits.
Hon. S.
Hagen: In that time period there were 19,019 applications received, and 77
percent of those, or 11,777, were approved.
Mayencourt: I would like to ask the minister just for some historical
context. I mentioned a little earlier about
schedule C.
Schedule C was to help
individuals living with catastrophic illness meet their needs in terms of
medical care, bottled water and so on. I understand that in the period of time
between 1996 and 2001, somewhere in the neighbourhood of 600 individuals applied
for
schedule C, and many of those individuals were granted
schedule C by
tribunal. I wonder if the minister can tell me how many of those tribunals or
those orders for
schedule C the Ministry of Human Resources appealed.
Hon. S.
Hagen: This is before my history, obviously, or my time in the ministry, but
I'm told that under the previous administration these requests were mostly
turned down. All cases that were turned down went to appeal, and nearly all were
won at the appeal.
MacPhail: In January '04 the caseload was — sorry — 114,000….
Hon. S.
Hagen: It was 114,674.
[1545]
MacPhail: It was 114,674. Can the minister break that down for me in terms
of the categories of social assistance? And if he could just read it slowly,
please.
Hon. S.
Hagen: Under temporary assistance, 47,178; persons with disabilities,
51,448; persons with persistent multiple barriers, 11,615; children in the home
of a relative, 4,433 — for a total of 114,674.
MacPhail: Those are cases. Thank you for that.
How does
that translate into people?
Hon. S.
Hagen: The number of people is 166,479.
MacPhail: Could I have that by category? The areas that I'm particularly
interested in are…. Well, no, I should not. I'm interested in all of them —
if the minister could break them down, please.
Hon. S.
Hagen: These will be read out in the same order as the other ones were. The
first one is 84,505; then 4,433; 14,733; and 62,808.
MacPhail: I'm referring to a monthly statistical report dated November 2003
that I got from the website. That's the document which I'm comparing. It just
goes up to November. That's why I'm asking for these additional cases.
It's as the
minister says. It is temporary assistance cases, then persons with disabilities
and then PPMB — that's persons with multiple barriers, etc. I'm just looking
at the trend here.
I could do
my math quickly, but what portion of the client base now are children under the
age of 18?
Hon. S.
Hagen: Approximately 600 children under the age of 18.
[1550]
MacPhail: Sorry — 600 children under the age of 18 in the whole caseload?
Interjection.
MacPhail: No, I don't mean independent living. Sorry; my apologies. I meant
total. How many children, whether they be…? I was going to ask that question
separately. So there are 600 children on independent living. Fair enough,
but….
Hon. S.
Hagen: I apologize for that. The other number that you want is 42,962.
MacPhail: The independent living number. That, I understand, is children who
are under 18, but someone has assessed them to be able to live on their own and,
therefore, collect social assistance. What is the change in the number of people
on independent living — calendar year '01, '02 and '03, please?
Hon. S.
Hagen: We don't have those numbers; we'll get them. But it has declined.
MacPhail: Last year there was a report by Family Services of Greater
Vancouver that 15- and 16-year-olds were being diverted to welfare. The reason
why I was asking that question beforehand is because last February there were 22
16-year-olds and one 15-year-old receiving income assistance, and the previous
minister said that was not an increase. I'm just wondering what the numbers are
now.
Hon. S.
Hagen: We'll have to get that number for you.
MacPhail: In terms of the way the exit surveys are done for the minister, I
had previously asked the ministry for statistics on the number of people who are
unable to access financial assistance — for instance, those who apply and are
turned down. I've never gotten that information. Is the ministry tracking the
number of inquiries or cases opened but never followed through?
Hon. S.
Hagen: These are called pre-applications. We don't have them, but we'll get
them for you.
[ Page 10076 ]
MacPhail: That's good. We have asked for them before, so I really would
appreciate getting those numbers, if I may.
[1555]
We've had a
bit of discussion about the reduction in the budget — the $79 million for
budget reduction for temporary assistance and then the employment programs
reduction of about $39 million. I want to ask the minister: how much of his
budget reduction is encapsulated by office closures?
Hon. S.
Hagen: The amount attributed to office closures — including salaries,
benefits and capital — is $10.2 million.
MacPhail: I'm talking about the year '04-05. The minister nods that he is as
well. What will be the reduction in full-time-equivalent staff?
Hon. S.
Hagen: We've already accomplished our reduction in staff. There will be no
further reductions in the '04-05 fiscal year.
MacPhail: I'm referring to a link from the minister's website called
"2004 Information for Clients," and it's entitled…. There's a
listing of service delivery changes by date. For instance, it says: "March
19, Service Delivery Changes." It's all under the headline of "2004
Information for Clients" changes.
It says
"Service Delivery Changes." I want to ask the minister about whether
the changes are a reduction, a relocation or a closure. Can we start with March
19, "Office…."
I'm
wondering. Maybe the minister can just find that. I can do it verbally just by
asking the office locations, or the minister may have the website. It's not
necessary. Do you want me to start by just asking the various offices?
Hon. S.
Hagen: We have a list of the offices that are closing, if you'd like.
MacPhail: All right. The minister has offered a list of the offices
to close. I'll ask later for a list of offices relocating, if any.
Hon. S.
Hagen: There are 26 amalgamations or closures of offices. All of them are
amalgamations except Parksville, which is closing. The other amalgamations are
occurring in Nanaimo, Campbell River, Sidney, Victoria, Vancouver, North
Vancouver, Coquitlam, Pitt Meadows, Abbotsford, Surrey, Burnaby, Kelowna,
Cranbrook, Vernon, Kamloops and Prince George.
MacPhail: When the minister says it's an amalgamation — for instance,
Prince George — what's amalgamating?
Hon. S.
Hagen: An example would be in a community that has two offices that are
amalgamating into one.
MacPhail: What guidelines for closure were put in place in terms of client
access to an office?
Hon. S.
Hagen: I think the Leader of the Opposition's question was: how are clients
getting access to information? I can list a variety of ways.
[1600]
The
ministry continues to deliver essential programs and services to clients through
the use of new technology and more efficient practices, which of course frees up
workers to spend more time with clients on employment plans. The ministry's
electronic services provide all British Columbians with 24-hours-a-day,
seven-days-a-week access to B.C. employment and assistance information through
new telephone and Internet services. The automated telephone inquiry at
1-866-866-0800 offers British Columbians toll-free access to information about
ministry programs and contacts. Ministry clients issued personal identification
numbers can use the system to access information about their own income
assistance cheques.
Electronic
services allow individuals to complete their required B.C. employment and
assistance orientation session on line. Individuals may also enter personal
information into the on-line income assistance and child care subsidy estimators
and receive a rough calculation of their eligibility for assistance. The
ministry continues to effectively serve clients in remote areas of the province,
where offices have closed, through a telephone service centre. Those individuals
have access to electronic services as well as a line that connects them directly
to ministry staff.
MacPhail: How often, on average, is a client required to attend at an
office, and then how often do clients, on average, actually attend an office?
They are two different things.
[J.
Weisbeck in the chair.]
Hon. S.
Hagen: I know the member opposite asked two questions, and the answers are
different, but they're also different according to the category. If you look at
persons with disabilities, they don't have to attend an office very often, if at
all.
MacPhail: Who?
Hon. S.
Hagen: Persons with disabilities.
It might be
once a year that they have to do a financial document or assessment, but it may
be that if they're severely disabled, the worker may go to their home and do
that, so they may not have to come in at all.
[1605]
With the
employment client, it can be done by phone or by coming into an office. In some
remote communities, it might be done at a government agent's office. The
government agent can, in fact, deal with the client. It might be once a month in
that case; it might be once every two months. But it can be done by phone,
[ Page 10077 ]
by computer, by government agent's office or by coming in, in person.
MacPhail: If a person is required to attend at an office and doesn't, is
there a penalty?
Hon. S.
Hagen: Again, it's very individualized. If a person misses an appointment or
doesn't come in when they're supposed to, then the worker tries to contact them
by telephone or however. If they can't contact them, then their cheque will be
held in the office until they get in contact with them.
MacPhail: My constituency office is at Nanaimo and Hastings in Vancouver. I
don't know whether my riding is an exception or not, but my constituency
assistant opens up my office to people on social assistance for phone use,
computer use and fax use to communicate with the Ministry of Human Resources. I
must tell you that there is a huge demand for that. It's a proper service that
the constituency office should offer. I'm sure I'm not alone in that. There's a
huge demand. But what that also means is that people who are on social
assistance don't have their own phone, fax or computer.
Is there
ever a time when a person is penalized? Is the only penalty that they have to
come into the office to pick up their cheque?
Hon. S.
Hagen: I'm told that that is the only penalty. If they can't get in touch
with them, then they would have to come into the office to pick up their cheque.
MacPhail: In the latest
article I can find in the newspaper about office
closures, there was concern raised by some local politicians in Colwood and
Langford. They're having three neighbourhood offices of the Ministry of Human
Resources closing effective today, and several councillors — Cynthia Day being
one — are raising concern about the closure of the offices. When the ministry
closes offices, do they sit down and talk to the local service agencies or local
politicians?
Hon. S.
Hagen: Our staff don't talk to councillors, but they certainly talk to staff
in the municipal office to ensure that the service is carried out. I know in the
case of Langford, the MLA was out talking to the Langford council very recently.
[1610]
Roddick: We as a government stated time and time again that we would not
impose cookie-cutter methods in delivering services and that common sense would
prevail. The people of my riding of Delta South naturally move north-south —
i.e., to White Rock or to the Richmond-Vancouver area — hence the arrangement
that Delta Hospital actually has made with Richmond General Hospital.
Delta
South, though, has been rounded up into the Fraser region — their offices are
in Surrey — to report to for all Human Resources services, including training,
retraining programs, etc. This means a two-hour bus ride and SkyTrain transfer
each way. To attend the same series of offices or programs or whatever in
Richmond or Vancouver, it's a 20- to 30-minute single bus ride each way.
I know the
regions are funded separately, but surely to heaven, common sense can prevail
here and some arrangement could be made to allow my constituents reasonable and
timely access to services provided under your ministry by taking a leaf out of
the Delta-Richmond health accord.
Hon. S.
Hagen: I thank the member for her question, and I can assure her that in our
ministry, common sense always prevails. Our offices and regions are contiguous
with the Ministries of Health and of Children and Family Development. If there
is an anomaly there that isn't working and if you bring it to my attention, I'll
be happy to look into it.
Mayencourt: Just getting back a little bit further to the disability issue.
I need a bit of a refresher here from the minister. I had asked two separate
questions. One was dealing with
schedule C, and I think the minister said that
there were approximately 600 applications for
schedule C, approximately 600
approvals and approximately 600 appeals by the ministry. In other words, the
ministry said: "No, we don't want to pay this money to these
individuals." Upon a tribunal reviewing those requests, the clients were
actually awarded the benefits. Have I got that right?
Hon. S.
Hagen: Yes, that's correct.
Mayencourt: In other words, the previous government's Ministry of Human
Resources, as a matter of course, appealed all
schedule C applications. I know
this is before your time as Minister of Human Resources, but these individuals
would be people living with HIV/AIDS, with cancer, with Lou Gehrig's — people
that really needed extra income in order to meet their medical care needs.
How long
would it generally take from the time that they were approved by the Ministry of
Human Resources to receive the money — or rather the time in which they were
approved to receive the money — to the ministry appealing that? Do you know
what the time frame was? How long did that take? In other words, how long were
they waiting to get the award they were entitled to?
Hon. S.
Hagen: That program was called the monthly health benefit, and the appeal
process could take six to nine months.
Mayencourt: That is the kind of information I had been hearing in my
community, and I think it was one of the things that really provided me with an
impetus to get involved in this, because I saw that as a fundamental flaw in the
delivery of services to Ministry of Human Resources clients.
[ Page 10078 ]
[1615]
A few
minutes earlier I asked the minister…. There's been an increase of roughly
9,000 new clients eligible for the new disability under the Employment and
Assistance Act. He gave me an indication of the number of people who have
applied, and approximately 77 percent of those individuals have been approved.
Is that correct?
Hon. S.
Hagen: That's correct.
Mayencourt: Of those 77 percent that have applied, did the ministry appeal
any of their awards for enhanced benefits for disability?
Hon. S.
Hagen: The ministry does not appeal.
Mayencourt: That's refreshing.
I want to
tell you that I witnessed, in my time in working in the AIDS and cancer world in
Vancouver-Burrard…. For many years I helped individuals with
schedule C, so
I'm acquainted with the kind of agony and despair and worry and delays that
affected those individuals. It's nice to see that this government has, I think,
a more humane and compassionate approach to dealing with individuals living with
those disabilities.
Mr. Chair,
I would like now to talk a little bit about an announcement that I had the
opportunity to make in the downtown east side this week. I'm sure it got a
little bit of air time. The minister was unable to be with us at that
announcement, but I know it was a demonstration of his commitment to that
community. I would like for him to say…. Why did you come up with $3.25
million for the downtown east side employment programs?
Hon. S.
Hagen: I appreciate the member for Vancouver-Burrard raising this, because
it is an important agreement, the Vancouver agreement — $3.25 million. It's
also a partnership approach. It involves the federal government, the city of
Vancouver and the province of British Columbia. It's really a way of trying to
solve some of the problems faced by our most barriered clients.
Mayencourt: As the minister knows, although I represent the riding of
Vancouver-Burrard, I am quite often in the riding of Vancouver–Mount Pleasant,
and it's because I like the folks down there. I really enjoy spending time with
them. I see some of the challenges they face. I have been at times critical and
at times very supportive of the Vancouver agreement. I see some really strong
pieces to that arrangement and some weaknesses as well.
I know that
our government had committed $10 million earlier this year, plus the $3.25
million that was announced just this week, and I know that the feds have put in
$10 million to that same program. All told, we've got about $23.5 million that
has been contributed by the two senior levels of government. I wonder if the
minister can let me know how much the city of Vancouver has contributed to the
employment program.
[1620]
Hon. S.
Hagen: The funding from the city of Vancouver, I think, is focused on some
of the other issues like homelessness, while our money is focused on employment.
But it is very, very important. Since I've become the minister, I've met with
many, many city councils and councillors and mayors from around the province and
other agencies. It's important that we work in a partnership. You know, there's
a limited amount of money, and we want to make sure the money is going to the
people who need those resources the most. I'd be pleased to get the member more
detail on the city of Vancouver's portion of the funding.
I just want
to talk a little bit more about the Vancouver agreement. This will assist about
700 clients in that area to move towards sustainable employment through a
combination of individual assessments, coordinated case management services,
skills training targeted at growth sectors — for example, construction — and
post-employment supports. This strategy will unfold over a three-year period due
to the multibarriered nature of the client group, which I talked about before.
We will also release an evaluation report at the conclusion of this
demonstration project, which is important. This report is anticipated to provide
valuable insight into which services are most effective in assisting the
multibarriered to become more self-sufficient.
Mayencourt: I had the opportunity to visit with some of the folks that are
actually affected by this grant. You know, when you look at it, I think there
are 5,000 residents in the downtown east side that are dependent on ministry
supports. We're really looking at about 15 percent of those people and saying:
"You have the desire to get into a training program. We're going to help
you with this." I think the unique thing about this particular program that
is so inspiring to me is that it's not merely job training. It is recognizing
that job training is a pathway to a job.
In the case
of people like Fast Track to Employment or the Cook Studio Cafe or Tradeworks,
this is truly the kind of work that they are doing. They are helping people with
developing skills so that they can be prepared to go to work. They are
developing in them conflict resolution capabilities and helping them deal with
some of the issues of just, you know, getting up for work on time. Then they're
training them. Whether they're training them to be a warehouseman or a framer or
a chef or a courier or any number of those jobs, they're actually spending some
time with them and getting them trained for that job. Then they go through about
an 18-month mentoring or supportive job placement.
The idea
behind this program that I just think is marvellous — and it's refreshing and
new — is that it's not really about inputs. It's not about how many people or
how much money we're putting into it. It's how many jobs we are going to end up
getting out of it.
[ Page 10079 ]
Now, I don't expect that we'll have 100 percent of those 700 people getting
back into the workforce, but I do know that with the kind of goals and the kind
of people that are there championing this whole effort, those kids, those young
people, those elder residents…. We have people in that at Tradeworks, for
example, who are 54 years old. I mean, those people are going to have an
opportunity to build a great life for themselves, so I really applaud the
government for its involvement in this.
I also
applaud the efforts of the other levels of government. As the minister said in
his comments, we can't do this alone. Whatever the differences I may have with
the Vancouver agreement from time to time, I recognize that there are some
people that sit at the table there from the city and from the federal
government, who have a huge commitment to that neighbourhood, and I'm glad we're
at that table as well.
[1625]
I know that
later this week there will be a management committee of the Vancouver agreement.
Obviously, you've committed $3.25 million for the employment programs. To what
extent do you report to that management committee, or is someone else from the
province responsible to do that?
Hon. S.
Hagen: Yes, my ministry does have direct representation on there, and the
person representing us at that table is the assistant deputy minister of
employment and labour market development.
Mayencourt: That's great. I think the management committee plays a pivotal
role in how the $3.25 million is going to be allocated, and I think it plays a
pivotal role in how the $20 million that was committed last year is allocated.
God knows, we can really make some great strides in the downtown east side with
the right people at the table, and I'm glad of that.
I know I've
had the opportunity to take your deputy and other members of your staff to see
organizations like United We Can, which provide very low-barriered employment
for people. We have people that go out and pick up cans in alleys, and they're
making a living from that. They're building their own source of income, and so
United We Can plays a great role in that community.
Fast Track
to Employment is one program that I want very much for you and your assistant
deputy minister to be familiar with. I think it holds a certain extra promise
for that neighbourhood and probably for other neighbourhoods that face similar
challenges. I want to push that a little bit and tell the minister a little bit
about that.
Fast Track
to Employment is an organization that has gathered together 90 individual
businesses from the lower mainland, from Vancouver. They're businesses like
Borden Ladner Gervais, which is a law firm. Another law firm is Fasken Martineau.
We have VanCity. The Ministry of Human Resources even does some catering through
it.
Basically,
what Fast Track to Employment has developed is a portal — a place on the Web
for an individual company that wants to give back to the community, that wants
to support people who are low income, that wants to support people in employment
programs and trying to make a better life for themselves. They can go to that
portal and say, "I need to buy flowers, so I'll buy those flowers from this
group that's training people to be florists in the downtown east side," or:
"I will buy my courier services from this courier company that's in the
downtown east side."
This portal
is a really exciting thing. Sometimes websites and all that aren't nearly as
exciting as the Web designers think they are, but this is exciting. It reaches a
business community that has a social conscience, a social responsibility to
those that are less fortunate. They want to support those that are less
fortunate, and this is a vehicle for letting them do that.
I would
very much like to take the minister and his deputy along to see the folks at
Fast Track to Employment, to visit some of the services that are down in the
downtown east side that are just blossoming, whether that's United We Can, Cook
Studio Cafe, Fast Track to Employment — any number of these things. PEERS, for
example, helps young women and men that are in the sex trade develop their work
skills.
I'd like
very much to do that. I want him to know that in my meetings with those groups
in the last few weeks, they are so appreciative that our government has made
this commitment. I know that many of them wrote to the minister last week,
because they copied me on it, but I think it would be just great if we could
take an afternoon one day and take a walk through there and have those people
talk to you directly. You'll see the people, the lives that are being changed in
that neighbourhood. It's very heartwarming. It's very touching. It's very
humble. It's important work that we as a government must do, and I'm glad we're
doing it.
Hon. S.
Hagen: I'd just like to reply to some of those comments. First of all,
absolutely, I'd be pleased to go with you one afternoon and visit some of those
areas. I am going to spend some time in the middle of the night with the
Vancouver city police, as I've done with the Victoria police. I've met with
PEERS Victoria but have not yet met with PEERS Vancouver. I would be pleased to
do that.
[1630]
I also want
to tell you that Fast Track to Employment will certainly be able to put a
proposal forward for funding from part of the $3.25 million provided through the
Vancouver agreement.
MacPhail: Well, let's continue along the line of employment programs. Can
the minister say what the total budget for '04-05 is for employment programs?
Hon. S.
Hagen: The total for '04-05 for employment programs is $71.475 million.
[ Page 10080 ]
MacPhail: The budget last year was $110.108 million, so what employment
programs are being cut or contracts expired?
Hon. S.
Hagen: I'd be pleased to answer that. I just want to point out to the member
that while the budget was $110.108 million, that amount was not spent. The
amount that we anticipate will be spent is closer to $83.938 million.
MacPhail: Does that mean that there was no requirement to spend the $110
million?
Hon. S.
Hagen: Yes, it wasn't fully subscribed; the demands weren't there.
MacPhail: Okay. There are two parts to the question. What was planned to be
spent that didn't need to be spent in '03-04 — what employment programs?
Hon. S.
Hagen: The two main underexpenditures were training-for-jobs and the job
placement program.
MacPhail: Okay. Well, what are the various kinds of employment programs? The
minister mentioned the training-for-jobs program. That was underspent. What's
the nature of that program, and can the minister predict why it was underspent?
Hon. S.
Hagen: The training-for-jobs program was a new pilot project that was
implemented. The training-for-jobs program provides clients with short-term
skills development training and other supports required in order to obtain and
retain employment. Approximately 4,572 clients were served in the first year,
and approximately 1,631 clients will be served in the second training term. The
ESL component will serve 231 clients.
[1635]
MacPhail: So it's being cut by half, or there's a prediction of an uptake of
half of what it was for the last year. Could the minister give me an example of
what kind of client is enrolled in the training-for-jobs program, and for how
long?
Hon. S.
Hagen: A couple examples. One would be the HardHats program delivered by
Destinations. The other would be the…. I can't remember what the name of the
program is, but they were training young people to work on Mount Washington, to
deal with skis, some mechanical things like ski bindings and that sort of thing
— where they train people and then place them in a job.
MacPhail: Well, let's take that in two parts. Is that a wage subsidy
program?
Hon. S.
Hagen: No, it's not a wage subsidy program.
MacPhail: Well, then maybe the minister could tell me how it operates. Does
the person stay on social assistance and work for the person? The minister said:
"And then they're placed in a job." After the training is over, is the
person guaranteed a job?
Hon. S.
Hagen: There's no subsidy. The client gets trained, and then they get a job.
In the case of the one that I saw in the Comox Valley, they all got a job with
Mount Washington. I got a report back a few weeks ago, because I was interested
in seeing what had happened to them, and most of them were still working on
Mount Washington or in other jobs. I think one had left the province.
MacPhail: What's a bridging program compared to a job placement program?
Hon. S.
Hagen: The bridging program is for clients with more barriers. It assists
survivors of violence and abuse to overcome employment barriers that prevent
them from making successful transitions to sustainable employment. The program
assists participants to deal with issues in order to enable them to move towards
independence and self-reliance and, eventually, to reduce their dependence on
employment assistance or funding under youth agreements through the Ministry of
Children and Family Development.
MacPhail: How does that compare to a job placement program?
Hon. S.
Hagen: The bridging employment program has three components. One is
community bridging, one is special bridging, and one is former sex-trade
workers. That's the type of program that PEERS — for instance, PEERS Vancouver
and PEERS Victoria — would deliver. It's really, I guess, to help them
overcome their barriers, which in some cases were through experiences of
violence or abuse, so they can move towards finding and maintaining employment.
MacPhail: PEERS is a bridging program, as I understand it, and the ministry
is saying it's funding that bridging program. What's a job placement program?
Hon. S.
Hagen: The job placement program was implemented on July 1, 2002. Under the
JP program, as they call it, ministry clients are referred to contracted service
providers who place clients in jobs and support them to become independent of
income assistance.
There are
four service providers currently who deliver the JP program, and these were
chosen through a request for proposal process: WCG International, which is Job
Wave; Grant Thornton, which is Destinations; Kopar Administration Ltd.; and
ASPECT, which is the Association of Service Providers for Employability and
Career Training.
[1640]
MacPhail: Do all financial assistance clients who are employable get
referred, or clients with multiple barriers? Do they all get referred to some
sort of train-
[ Page 10081 ]
ing program? How does that work? Who does the referral?
Hon. S.
Hagen: Yes, the EAWs refer all clients who are in the expected-to-work
category to job placement programs.
MacPhail: Are all programs run by private agencies?
Hon. S.
Hagen: Private and not-for-profit agencies.
MacPhail: All employment programs — the full budget that's going to be
this year, $71 million — are in the form of private contracts. In other words,
there are no government-run employment training programs. Is that correct?
Hon. S.
Hagen: That's correct.
MacPhail: Given what's happened in the Ministry of Children and Family
Development, what performance-based contracts does the government have with
these agencies? What's the detail for ensuring that there's value for money?
Hon. S.
Hagen: Job placement contracts are performance-based, as she said. The
service providers receive milestone payments over a period of time based on the
accumulated months of client independence. The success of the JP program is
measured by the ability of clients placed in employment to become and remain
independent of employment assistance.
MacPhail: What auditing measures are in place, or accountability measures?
Who looks after that inside the ministry? What official? Are there public
reports of accountability and performance measures of this $83 million for the
last fiscal year?
Hon. S.
Hagen: The assistant deputy minister of employment programs is responsible
for the delivery of the job placement programs. The ministry receives monthly
reports as to who is achieving independence from those deliverers. Job program
providers also are in regular contact with the EAWs, and each of the regions has
assigned liaison staff to the program deliverers.
MacPhail: Is there any link provided between the exit surveys done by the
ministry and the statistics collected within the agencies?
[1645]
Hon. S.
Hagen: The exit surveys are completely independent from the information that
is received from the job placement providers.
MacPhail: Okay. Well, that's interesting, because I was looking at all of
the anecdotal evidence on the website. It actually says that the job placement
statistics, the record of this government since it took office, are that 26,774
people have been placed in jobs. That's up until last month. The 85,000 people
who have left the welfare rolls haven't gone into jobs that this minister can
account for. He can say that less than a third of the people who have left the
welfare rolls have gone into jobs.
I also
wanted to ask the minister this question. Does this number of people that he
says have gone into jobs — 26,774 between June 2001 and February 2004 —
refer to the number of people who have stayed permanently off welfare or only
people who have found at least one job during that period of time?
Hon. S.
Hagen: I just want to qualify one of the comments that the Leader of the
Opposition made. That was with regard to the 85,000 figure, which is the
reduction of people on income assistance, and related to the 26,000 or 27,000
that have found jobs through our job placement projects, I guess.
People who
have been on income assistance also find their own jobs without having to go
through the ministry, so there's a portion of that difference who are in the
workforce because they actually went out and got their own job. They weren't
placed in a job-training program by the ministry and then trained for a job.
In answer
to the member's question, the clients that are placed in a job, which is what
that number of 26,000 or 27,000 indicates…. If they lose a job or the job
disappears, then they come back on income assistance, but they stay with the job
placement program. In other words, the caseworkers monitor them and stay with
them. So if something happens, they have a place to come back to. They have a
person to come back to, and they are assisted by the job placement people in the
ministry to find another job.
MacPhail: My question was that the 26,700 people who the ministry says
they've placed in jobs…. Could that include the same person being placed in
two different jobs with a period of social assistance in between?
[1650]
Hon. S.
Hagen: Good question. It doesn't count as another placement. Those are
people who have jobs, and if they go into another job, they are not added to
that list.
MacPhail: Given the fact that the ministry itself is claiming that 26,774
people have been placed in jobs as a result of their programs, how is it — and
the exit surveys don't come anywhere close to suggesting that they've examined
more than a third of the people in exit surveys — that government can make
this statement?
"Refinements
in Employment Programs." This is a fact sheet that I just pulled off.
"Nearly 85,000 people have moved off income assistance into
employment." What's the basis for that statement?
Hon. S.
Hagen: The vast majority of those clients go into work. However, the other
reasons that clients
[ Page 10082 ]
will leave the income assistance rolls are, for example, education, marriage
or family changes.
MacPhail: Well, there's a new concept — marriage, and you don't have to
work. That's a new concept to me, and I'm 52 years old. I don't think that
concept has been around for a while — that marriage precludes work or
employment. But hey, this is a different government. There's no question about
that.
Well, the
fact of the matter is that the government has no proof for its statement that
85,000 people have moved off income assistance into employment. I think it
detracts from the government, by making the statement. They can claim credit for
what they can claim credit for, but why exaggerate?
Now, also
on this same fact sheet…. I'll just read this into the record. It says:
"Over the next year the ministry will be consulting with service providers
and stakeholders to further develop its employment programs. Based on these
discussions, it's anticipated that the ministry may adjust funding and introduce
new programs that are responsive to clients' needs." What does that mean?
Hon. S.
Hagen: As the numbers on income assistance decrease, then we get down to
people with more and more barriers. We have to make sure our programs are
working so that those people can take advantage of the programs even though
they're multibarriered.
MacPhail: What's the consultation process that the minister is going to
conduct?
Hon. S.
Hagen: We're just developing that. We want to do it this fall.
[1655]
MacPhail: I want to raise a matter that's important in my riding at a
minimum, and that is the community assistance program. At least one of my
neighbourhood houses used to conduct the community assistance program and has
lost the funding. The community assistance program, as I see from the ministry's
own fact sheet dated February 25, 2004, is one of the ministry's employment
programs for clients with barriers to employment — just the kind the minister
just mentioned. The program was designed to support greater self-reliance and
community involvement for these clients through services such as life skills and
pre-employment training.
The CAP
contracts were scheduled to end yesterday. Did they end, and what's the plan for
carrying on the community assistance program?
Hon. S.
Hagen: Eight of the 65 agreements will wind down as of April 30, the end of
this month, and the 57 remaining contracts have been extended to November.
MacPhail: What's the status of the community assistance programs at the
Kiwassa Neighbourhood House? I'm told that the three were cancelled — the
youth intervention program, the employment support program and the Youth Spot
contract. I'm sorry; that was held by Frog Hollow Neighbourhood House, which is
in my riding.
Hon. S.
Hagen: We only show two Kiwassa projects; at least that's all I can see. One
was reduced by 15 percent because the uptake was low, and one was eliminated
because of either low usage or they didn't meet the criteria of the program.
Let me read
to you what the ministry uses as criteria for extensions: "Contract
extensions are based on actual program activity levels, emphasize pre-employment
and life skills supports for BCEA clients, and eliminate duplicate services that
exist elsewhere in the community."
[1700]
MacPhail: Yes, I said the third program was Youth Spot at Frog Hollow, which
is a neighbourhood house — I corrected myself — and that it's being cut.
Perhaps the minister can actually list for me the eight programs that are not
being extended. Could he also tell me what the annual budget is for '04-05 for
community assistance programs?
Hon. S.
Hagen: Before I list them off, the budget is $5.2 million. We are going to
consider these programs as part of the redesign for more barriered clients, and
there will be discussions held with the providers.
The ones
that are being discontinued are in Nanaimo. The Salvation Army, for — did you
want the budget commitment for '04-05? — $13,042; the Richmond Youth Service
Agency Society, where the budget was zero for this upcoming year; the Kiwassa
Neighbourhood Services Association in Vancouver, $5,460; B.C. Coalition of
People with Disabilities, $10,827; B.C. Wheelchair Sports Association, $1,172;
Olive Branch Consulting, $14,315; WISH Drop-in Centre Society, $10,544; and the
Kitimat Community Services Society, where the budget is zero.
MacPhail: Sorry; I thought it said all but eight. I asked for the eight that
weren't going to be extended. The minister says that was their budget, and
they're now not being extended — or what?
Hon. S.
Hagen: Yes. As I mentioned before, they were extended one month to April 30,
so that budget amount that I gave you was for the month of April.
MacPhail: Okay. Then they're cut after that.
Hon. S.
Hagen: Discontinued.
MacPhail: Discontinued. Okay. What were the criteria for choosing those
eight for discontinuance?
Secondly,
the budget for the community assistance program in December of 2002 was $9.25
million. This year it's going to be $5.2 million. Is it safe to say there
[ Page 10083 ]
are going to be substantial cuts elsewhere in these programs?
Hon. S.
Hagen: Of the eight agencies mentioned, two agencies agreed that they would
not be continuing. The other six didn't meet the criteria which I read out
previously. The extensions on the other ones go to November 30. In between now
and November 30, there will be discussions held with the providers to make sure
we are delivering the programs that are needed for the more barriered clients.
[1705]
MacPhail: Well, I have an updated bulletin — updated March 29, 2004 —
from the Ministry of Human Resources, talking about persons with persistent
multiple barriers. Why was it updated March 29? I can't find anything here that
stands out in terms of a more persistent approach on behalf of people with
multiple barriers, so what's the basis behind updating this on March 29?
Hon. S.
Hagen: On that particular one the dental limits were adjusted upwards from
$250 a year to $500 a year.
MacPhail: A person called into my office when the matter of diet allowances
was being discussed, and I'll just read this into the record. It was delivered
about a half-hour ago. It's from a person who has hepatitis and is diabetic, and
he applied for a diet allowance two months ago. He asked his worker why it's
taking so long, and his worker said that all of her diet allowance applications
are taking forever — and much, much longer this year than last. She showed the
client a large stack on her desk. What is the average time a diet allowance
application takes for filling?
Hon. S.
Hagen: A worker does the decision on a diet allowance based on a doctor's
recommendation, which should not take very much time at all, I'm told.
MacPhail: That's why there's a disconnect between people who are watching
this, including EAWs and clients, and what the minister is telling me. Let me
ask this. This person has hepatitis and is diabetic and has a medical note — a
doctor's note or a doctor's diagnosis — for both of those. Why would it take
two months and still be not filled?
Hon. S.
Hagen: Now I guess I have to change my assumption as to what you were
talking about. I assume now that you're talking about the monthly nutritional
supplement. Is that right? That's not what you asked me before. Anyway, if
that's what you're talking about, it is more complicated. It's done centrally.
There may have been insufficient information on the form. There could be any
number of reasons why it takes extra time.
MacPhail: Sorry