Manitoba Hansard — 17 October 1988 (Sitting 58A, 34th Legislature, 1st Session)

34-1-58a

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

MG-8048 First Session - Thirty-Fourth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS (HANSARD) 37 Elizabeth 11 Published under the authority of The Honourable Denis C. Rocan Speaker VOL XXXVII No. 58A - 1:30 p.m., MONDAY, OCTOBER 17, 1988. ISSN 0542-5 492 Pdnted by the Office of the Queens Printer, Province of Man;toba

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Fourth Legislature Members, Constituencies and Political Affiliation NAME ALCOCK, Reg ANGUS, John ASHTON, Sieve BURRELI .. , Parker CARR, James CARSTAIRS, Sharon CHARLES, Gwen CHEEM A, Gul zar CHORNOPYS KI, William CONNERV, Edward Hon. COWAN, Jay CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. DOER, Gary DOWNEY, James Hon. DRIEDGER, Albert, Hon. DRIEDGER, Herold, L. DUCHARME, Gerald, Hon. EDWARDS, Paul ENNS, Harry ERNST, Jim, Hon. EVANS, Laurie EVANS, Leonard FILMON, Gary, Hon. FINDLAY, Glen Hon.

GAUDRV, Neil GILLESHAMMER, Harold GRAY, Avis HAMMOND, Gerrie HARAPIAK, Harry HARPER, Eli jah HELWER, Edward R. HEMPHILL, Maureen KOZAK, Richard, J. LAMOUREUX, Kevin, M. MALOWAV, Jim MANDRAKE, Ed MANNESS, Cla yton, Hon. McCRAE, James Hon. MINENKO, Mark MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. NEUFELD, Harold, Hon. OLESON, Charlo tte Hon. ORCHARD, Donald Hon. PANKRATZ, Helmut PATTERSON, Allan PENNER, Jack, Hon. PLOHMAN, John PRAZNIK, Darren ROCAN, Denis, Hon. ROCH, Gil les ROSE, Bob STORIE, Jerry TAYLOR, Harold URUSKI, Bill WASYLYCIA-LEIS, Judy YEO, lva CONS TITUENCY Osborne St.

Nor bert Thom pson Swan River Fort Rouge River Heights Selkirk Kildonan Burr ows Portage la Prairie Churchill Ste. Rose du Lac Roblin-Ru ssell Concord ia Arth ur Emerson Niakwa Riel St. James Lakeside Charleswood Fort Garry Brandon East Tuxedo Vir den St. Bonif ace Minn edosa Ellice Kirkfield Park The Pas Ruperts land Gimli Logan Transcona ln kster Elm wood Assinib oia Morris Brandon West Seven Oaks River East Rossmere Gladstone Pembina La Verendrye Radisson Rhineland Dauphin Lac du Bonne t Turtle Mountain Spring field St. Vital Flin Flon , Wolseley lnterlake St.

Johns Sturgeon Creek PARTY LIBERAL LIBER AL NDP PC LIBERAL LIBERAL LIBER AL LIBER AL LIBE RAL PC NDP PC PC NDP PC PC LIBERAL PC LIBERAL PC PC LIBERAL NDP PC PC LIBERAL PC LIBER AL PC NDP NDP PC NDP LIBERAL LIB ERAL NDP LIBER AL PC PC LIB ERAL PC PC PC PC PC LIBE RAL PC NDP PC PC LIBERAL LIBER AL NDP LIBERAL NDP NDP LIBERAL

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Monday, October 17, 1988. The House met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS MINIST ERIAL STATEM ENTS AND TABLING OF REPORT S Hon. James Downey (Minister responsible for the Communities Economic Development Fund): I have a statement to make. I have copies for the Mem bers of the House and I will wait until they are distribu ted . I rise toda y to make a brief sta tement regar ding a special audit being carried out on the Commun ities Econ omic Development Fund. I have received a letter � from the Provincial Auditor, Mr.

Fred Jackson, advising , me of cert ain recent allegations received from the employees of the Communit ies Economic Developme nt Fund and other ind ividuals outsi de the fu nd. This is further to the concerns he ha s raised in his ongoing repor ti ng of CED F. Upon rec eiving this infor mation, and following discussions with the Min ister of Finance, Mr. Manness wrote to t he Provincial Audit or requesting that he und ertake a special audit of the fun d. I immediately contacted the chairperson of the board, Barbara Bruce, requesting a meeting with the board.

At that meeti ng, I inf ormed the board tha t I had received corres ponde nce from the Provincial Auditor advi sing me of the alle gat ions and conti nue d mismanagement that have been raised. Representation of the board then met with the Provin cial Audit or. At the fol lowing board meeti ng, a resol ution was passed agreeing to meet immediately with Mr. Jone s to discuss the allegations and to seek his agreement to relinqu ish his au thorit y as general manager for such a time as �may be necessary to enable the Provincial Aud itor to J investigate the allegations. The next day, the board met with Mr.

Jones to advise him of the special audit and the proceed ings. At this meeti ng, Mr. Jones agreed to rel inquish his position as general manager and ceased immediately to operate in this capacity. The same day, the board appoint ed Mr. Ray Gamman, of the firm of Deloitte, Haskins and Sells, to act as acting general manag er, effect ive October 13, 1988, and ending, un less otherwise agreed , on November 30, 19 88.

The object ive of the audit is to det ermine whether appropria te mana gement action has been taken to resolv e the concerns id entified in the Pro vincial Auditor's Report to the Legislatur e for the year ended March 31, 19 87, and to det ermine which of the allegations the Aud itor recen tly received are based on substanc e or are in fact unf ounded. Thank you. Mrs. Sharon Carstairs {leader of the Opposition): We are delighted to hear this announc ement in the Legislature today, although we are somewhat dismayed tha t we had to fi rst learn it from the media and not from the Min ister himself.

I note with interest that there are no dates attached anywhere in this announcement as to when exact ly and specifically he did order such an audit. We can only assume tha t it was order ed some time last week, and we think tha t in the interests of good Government in Manitoba tha t we should, in this House, have been immediately informed . The second thing, which I hope is an oversight in typ in g, Mr.

Speaker, but I am very concerned about paragraph 5 in which it says: "At that meeting, I informed the board tha t I had received correspondence from the Pr ovi ncial Auditor advising me of the allegations and continue d mismanagement." lt would appear from that, without cert ain words in there, that they have already assumed th at ther e is mismanagement of this corpora tion. I think that is most unfai r. If tha t is not the mean ing, then I certainly hope the Min ister will correct that. Thank you. * (13 35) Mr.

Steve Ashton (Thompson): As CEDF critic for the New Democratic Party, I, too, am concerned about the fact tha t we in this Legislature read about allegations tha t have been made invol ving CEDF. We had to read about it on the front page of the newspaper. My und erstan ding is tha t the suspension involved in this

part icular case was hande d down last Thur sday. Why there could not have been a state ment either in the -House on Thu rsday or Frid ay, I do not know. I am also somewhat concerned, too, about the sta tement made by t he Minister and the fact tha t he has made no reference to recent statements in volving the Auditor and in fact also the Touche Ross Report , which was tabled, I believe, in March of 19 88, which had some specific analysis of the management practices at the board . I quote from the executive

summary of the report, Mr. Speaker , when it said: "Management has done a commendable job in enhancing adminis tra tiv e controls over the past two years ." The report made fiv e recommenda tions in terms of the way it could be further improved . The Minister has made no mention of that in this statement tod ay, which I th ink is certainly relevant to this particular area. In fact, in the period of time tha t he has been Minister, th ere has been no mention of it. Our concern in the New Democratic Party caucus is to make sure tha t the manda te of CEDF to serve northern and Nati ve communit ies is maintai ned .

Tha t was something tha t was also outlined in the Touche Ross Report when it tal ked about making sure tha t there is a balance between control and also not swinging the pend ulum too far to the control side with the 2133

Monday , Oc;tober 17, 1988 accompanying detri mental effects for the very important manda te of the fund to pr ovi de assistanc .e to economically disadvantaged persons in remote and isolated regions. Given the recent developments and given the fact th at the Conservative Government recently changed a num ber of appoint ments to the board , I wo uld hope tha t the Mini ster . would make it clear that the role of CEDF will be maintai ned and enh anced in serving disad vantaged Man itoba n s parti cularly in northern communities.

I would ask that he do come up with some c;learer informa ti on than is loca ted in this stand on th at p�r ticular un derlyi ng concern , and also the quest ions th at have been raised ab()ut the dates as to when. th ese al lega ti ons were rai sed , and wha t specifically are involved with those allegations. Hon. James McCrae (Attorney-General): I am pleased to tabl e the An nual Rep ort, for 19 86- 87, of . the Department of Cooperative Developmen t. INT RODUCTION OF BILLS BILL NO. �THE I!IUNICIPAL AMENDMENT ACT Hon.

Glen Cummings (Min ister of Municipal Affairs) Intr od uced , by le ave, Bill No. 34, The Muni cipal Amend ment Act; Loi modi fiant la Lo i sur le mun icipalit es. " (1 3,40) ORAL Ql,JESTION P�RIOD Federal S.ales T�t]( Changes N�tiatipns Mn. Shar�n Caratairs (Leader: of the Oppos ition): My question is for the First Minister (Mr . Filmon). About 10 days ago, we heard from the. head of the House of Commons Finance Committee tha t the new tax tha t will be imposed on Canad ians after the elect ion will result in a $10 billion tax grab from the Canadian people.

T ti at was denied by the PriiTle Minis ter of the count ry, but today we have confi rmation from a consultant to the Depart ment of Finance. He does not say it is goin � to be $10 billion; he says it is going to be a mere $8 billion tha t Canad ians are going to be asked to pay and tha t those rates are going to be from 8 percent in Alberta to 23 percent in Newf oundland. Can the First Minister tell this House what negot iations his G()vern ment has had with the federal Government with regard to this n ew sales tax, and at what rate has it been set for Man itoba? Hon.

Gary Filmon (Premier): Tha t is a question that should more properly be put to the Min ister of Fina nce (Mr . Man ness). In his absence, I will take tha t question as not ice. Government's Position Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Opposition): lt comes as some shock tha t the First Min ister (Mr . Filmon) would not know about t hese negot iations and would not know what the rates were going to be. Can the Fi rst Minister tell the House whether his Government has agreed to the imposition of this new form of sales tax in Canada ? Hon. Qary Fil mon (Prelll ier): I will take tha t question as notice as well.

Budget Promises Mrs. Shar on Carstairs (Leader of the Opposition): In the most recent Budget in this pro vince, ther e was no tax relief, and ft.lrt he.r, in that this Governm en t said In their elect ion campaign t hat there would be no new taxes during their administration, can the Premier (Mr. Filmon) of thi s province assure Man ltobans tha t ther e will be no increase in ta x,. of sales tax or any other 1 kind, in this province under this admin istra tion? Hon. Qary Filmon (Premier): I might remind the Leader of the Opposit ion (Mr s.

Carstairs), who has obviously for got ten, that we remo ved half of the current businesses who paid the payroll tax in Manitoba off the payro ll tax as a result of our Budget. I might ind icate as well tha t Manltobans would indeed be fa cing huge increases in taxes were the Liberals to have their way in Manit oba on the $700 million of demands tha t they have put upon this Government since we started the Session on July 21. Were we to be able to tr y and fund th ose demands, there would Ind eed be a necessity to increase taxes. Final ly, Mr.

Sp eaker, I will say to the Leader of the Op position tha t we will in deed keep our elect ion commitments to the people of Man itoba. Mrs. Carstairs: The First Minister (Mr. Filmon) seems to forget tha t no one has received any relief from payroll tax yet. CEQF Audit Chairman's Suspension Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Opposition): My question is to the Min ister of Northern Affa irs (Mr . Downey). In his annou ncement earlier tod ay, and in his callin g for the audit of the Commun itie s Economic Development Fund, he ind icated tha t the head of the fund had been suspended with pay.

Can he explain why this same indi vidual has ind icated tha t since the audit has been un dertaken, he is st ill atten ding at the of fice? Hon. James Downey (Minister responsible for the Communities Economic Development Fund): lt was the Board of Directors tha t took tha t action , and as I unde rstand it, it was the auditors who requested tha t same ind ividual attend the office to be available to the auditors. 213 4

Monday , October 17, 1988 Mrs. Carstairs: Then, for clarification purp oses, can the Min ister tell us whether he has been been suspended or he has not been suspended, or has he been suspended but he is st ill wor king? Mr. Downey: Yes, he is suspended with pay and is available to an swer quest ions for the auditors. CEDF Audit Start-up Date Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Opposition): Can the Min ister of Northern Affa irs (Mr . Downey) tell the Ho use when , specifical ly, the audit was order ed and why it took until toda y for us to learn of it ? Hon.

James Downey (Min ister respon sible for the Communities Economic Dev elopment Fund): As the Leader of the Opposition (Mr s. Carstairs) may be aware, this pr oblem did not develop over night. We had several years of an NDP admin istra tion. We have had several years of auditor reports ind icating diffi culti es there, Mr. Speaker. I can indicate tha t we had a letter from the Provincial Audit or on October 5, and the request was fol lowed immediately for a special audit by the Minis ter of Financ e (Mr. Man ness), which I fo llowed , calling a meeting of the Board of Directors of CE DF.

The Leader of the Opp osition (Mr s. Carstairs) asked when . I believe it was on the 5th of October we received the letter . On the 6th, the letter went to the Audit or, requesting the audit, and I, the same day, requested a meeting immediately with the Board of Directors of CEDF. • (1 345) Education Tax Rebate Increase Mr. Bill Uruski (l nterlake): Mr. Sp eaker, while this Government red uces taxes to ln co and other large corporations in Man itoba, Man itoba farm fam ilies cont in ue to experience financial diffi culties. My question to the Min ister of Agricultur e (Mr .

Findla y)-s eeing tha t farm incomes continue to decline and over 400 farm fam ilies are being heard before the Family Farm Pr ote ction Board , the NDP pr ovided assistance of $500 per farm fam ily to ameliorate the effects of school taxes in 19 87. We pledged to double that support to $ 1, 000 in 19 88. The Conser vat ive Government changed the criteria to allow 25 percent as the deduction of school tax to all owners of farm land whether they farm it or not . That is in their ads.

Ther e are appr oximately 2 million acres of farm land owned by for eign investors, speculators, land dealers, lawyers and non -fa rming corpor at ions. These corporations, amongst other things, take out of the farm economy over $50 million per year in lease fees . This year, the y are taking out a further $2 million from this program. How can this Minis ter justif y taking $2 million of benefits from Man itoba farmers and sending it to speculators and land dealers and non-far ming corporations out of this province? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker , only because I know tha t the Member for lnterlake (Mr .

Uruski) would not like to leave a falsehood on the record do I rise to add ress the text of his

preamble. I want it to be absolutely clear on the record so tha t it is not repeated again by anybody on tha t side tha t this Gover nment has not reduced the taxes to lnco. In fact , this year, lnco will have paid the highest taxes in its history in this province, something in the neighbourhood of $10 0 million in taxes in this province, the highest taxation in its histor y. Let him not leave on the record the falseho od. In fact, the mining taxes were increased in our Budget from 18 percent to 20 percent. I will let the rest of the question be ans wered by the Min ister of Agricultur e (Mr. Find lay). Hon.

Glen Findlay (Minister of Agriculture): Mr. Speaker , the education taxes paid by Man itoba for farmers on bare farm land is an extremely unfair tax that farm owners and farm fam ilies have recogn ized for a long period of time. We have intr oduced a program to recognize tha t by paying the tax rebate directly to lan downers who are the ones who pay the tax. We are reco gni zing tha t wiv es and wido ws are legiti mate lan downers in the Province of Man itoba.

The previous adminis tration did not recog ni ze tha t they were legitima te lan downers and discriminated very defi ni tely against those people, and we recog ni ze them as legitima te landowners in the Province of Man itoba. Mr. Uruski: Mr. Speaker , I want the Min ister to know that wives as well as husbands were in fact able to claim under our program. * ( 13 50) Rebate Policy Mr.

Bill Uruski (lnt erlake): How can this Minister justif y how a Mani toba lawyer, who fronted for others outside this province and bought 25,000 acres of farm land between 19 78 and 19 82, received a benefit of almost $28 ,000 from their ch anges while a small farm family in the R.M. of Rossburn loses or receives $300 less this year than they did under the NDP program? Can he give us the justif ication and explana tion for tha t change? Hon.

Gl en Findlay (Mi ni ster of Agriculture): If somebody owns tha t numb er of acres in the Province of Manitoba and if th ey are farm ing it, they are genui nely available to get the refu nd back. If they are leasing the land, the lessee then has the right to ask the lando wner to pass tha t benefit on to him. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Order , pl ease; order , ple ase. The Honourable Member for ln terlake. Mr. Uruski: I ask this Minister, knowing-a nd he knows because he said in Estima tes tha t over 40 percent of 213 5

Monday , October 17, 1988 farm famil ies, especially young, beginnin g farmers, lease lands privately and th ey will no longer be eligible for support under this progr am- how will he be able to explain to that farmer why an eastern Canadian lawyer, who bought 8,928 acres for $5.2 million and received a benefit of almost $9,800 under their changes to the program , while he reduced benefits to a fam ily farm corpora tion in my municipal ity by $300, can he explain how tha t program is fa ir? What is fai r about th ose changes? Mr. Findlay: Mr.

Speak er, anybody who is paying taxes on farm land is going to receive the rebate. If the Min ister believes tha t young farmers should have a special considera tion, this is not the program to do it unde r. If they own the land, if the young farmer owns the land, they get the tax rebate the same as any lando wn er-a wife, a widow, a reti red farmer , any legitima te land owner. The previous NDP admin istra tion put in a program that gave hobby farmers and part- time farmers fu ll relief from their taxes. He did not recognize the true legitimate full-time farmers in the Province of Manitoba, Mr.

Speaker , and tr ue lando wners in the Province of Man itoba, ful l-time farm ers, support this program very defin itely. Mr. Uruski: Mr. Sp eaker, the Minis ter wel l knows tha t all lands tha t are categ or ized farm land received a benefit under his program and our program. it is his changes tha t caused these benefits. Grain Prices Compensation Mr. Bill Uruski (l nterlake ): Mr. Sp eaker, I ask the Min ister of Agriculture (Mr. Findla y): Many farm groups across western Canada have been very patient in the past vis-a-vis the need for additional support in terms of the depression in grain prices.

The New Democrat ic Party nationally has anno unced its suppor t for farmers; Manitoba farm groups have been calling for support. This Min ister said tha t all the y have to do is pick up the phone and phone Ottawa. When will west ern Canad ian and Mani toba farmers, in particular , receive their support for the loss of income as a result of depr essed grain prices? Can this Min ister tell us? Hon. Glen Findlay (Minister of Agriculture): Mr. Sp eaker, the prod ucers in western Canada all know tha t ther e are no longer depr essed grain prices.

Grain prices have risen substan tially in the last num ber of months and are defi nitely expected to rise in the coming months. There was a decline in grain prices in '86 and '87 and a Special Grains Program in '86 and '87 recognized tha t most definitel y. The Sp ecial Grains Prog ram in '86 did not pay to some ln terlake producers and the Min ister of Agriculture at tha t ti me, in the Province of Manitoba, was asked to act . Tha t Min ister at tha t time chose not to act , Mr. Sp eaker. He chose not to act . Mr.

Sp eaker, for 19 88, th ere has been a dr ought and th ere have been a number of representa tions made to the federal Gover nment with regard to programs tha t could be used to target assistanc e to the dr ought affected farmers in the Province of Manitoba and across west ern Canada and also the Province of Ontario.

Details of tha t proposal are being developed by the federal Government in consultation with t he Min isters of Agriculture in the western provinces and the farm organ izations across western Canada, and th ose det ails will be anno unced when the y are ready. * (13 55) Drought Aid Package Provincial Recommendations Mr.

Laurie Evans (Fort Garry): Much along the same gist here of 10 days ago, while the Prime Min ister was campaigning in Outlook, Saskatc hewan , he said tha t a drought-aid package for producers is in the works, but he went on and -1 will quote -h e said, "First we have to complete our consulta tions with produ cer groups and provincial Gover nme nts. " My quest ion is to the Minis ter of Agricultur e (Mr . I Findla y).

Have these consulta tions with the provincial Governments been complet ed, and if th ey have, can the Min ister table the recommendations tha t went forth from this Government to the federal Governme nt regard ing the size and the nature of the dr ought-aid package? Hon.

Glen Findlay (Minister of Agriculture): A meeting was held in Winnip eg here last week involving of ficials from the Department of Agriculture of Manitoba and of ficials from Agriculture Canada an d other pr ovinces of Western Canada, and details are continuing to be developed, particular ly, th roug h the Crop Ins urance Corpora tions of the Prairies on the thr ee prairie provinces. Delay Mr. Laurie Evans (Fort Garry): About the same time, Mr.

Rod Bailey, who is an Assistant Deputy Min ister in the federal Depar tment of Agr iculture, made the stat ement that the anno uncement of a dr ought-aid package is probably two months away un less th ere is political int ervent ion. Now if the anno uncement is two months away, obviously the payout is much later than that. My quest ion is to the Min ister of Agr iculture (Mr . Findla y). Is a delay of this nature just ified and will he accept tha t? Hon.

Glen Findlay (Minister of Agriculture): I canno t speak for the fed eral Assistant Deputy Minister of Agriculture, but I can assure the Member opposite tha t we are work ing as much as we can, th rough the Crop Insurance Corpora tion, to develop the figures and the informa tion tha t is needed to get tha t anno unced package in place so an early anno uncement can be given . Mr. Laurie Evans: Assuming then tha t the comments from Mr. Bailey are co rrect , is the Minister prep ared 213 6

Monday, October 17, 1988 to consider some inte rim arrangement that will put some cash in the hands of cash-strapped farmers while they are wait ing for this long-dela yed federal annou ncement? Mr. Findlay: A num ber of producers in Man itoba chose to take out crop insu rance in 19 88, and years previous, and payments under Crop Insurance administration will be occurring in the next two to thr ee months and tha t assistance will be very gra tefu lly received by tho se in t he hard-hit dr ought areas. Cancer Treatments Waiting Period Mr.

Gul zar Cheema (Kildon an): My quest ion is for t he Min ister of Health (Mr . Orchard). This morning, Manitobans were again greeted with another headlin e tha t outli nes the sorry state of health care in Man itoba. Mr. Sp eaker, it is bad enough to have a disease like cancer, but it is inhu man to wait to have a tr eatment for such a disease for six weeks. Will the Minister of Health explain why there is such a wait ing period and would he tell the House if he ha s been contacted by the fam ilies or the patients for the last few weeks? Hon.

Donald Orchard (Min ister of Health): In answer to the latter question, yes. In answer to some of the other portions of the question by my honourable frie nd, I would like to point out to my honourable friend tha t as Opposition Health critic, as early as 19 85, I and my colleague, the MLA for Glad stone (Mr s. Oleson), were ind icating to the then Minis ter of Health and the then Govern ment tha t there were diffi culties in achieving, particu larly, radiotherapy in Manitoba.

In deed , at one point in time, individuals, I believe, if my memory serves me correctly , were sent out of province for rad io tr eat ment a year and a half ago. Having raised tha t issue over thr ee years ago to the then Minister of Health , action was taken by the previous admin istration and a couple of radiotherapy machines are in the process of installation at the Cancer Treat ment Research Foundation and the unacceptable wait ing times which happened upon occasion over the last numb er of months ought to be relieved with tho se machines coming on stre am. Mr. Cheema: Mr.

Sp eaker, my supplementary quest ion is for the same Minis ter. Can the Min ister tell us how long he has been aware of the serious negle ct and what action he is taking to ensure tha t cancer patients will be receiving tr eat ment when the y need it and not six weeks later? Mr. Orchard: My awareness stems back to 19 85, at which time I brought that problem to the then Min ister of Health, and to give him credit, they approved instal lation and capital expen ditu res of some new radiother apy tr eat ment machines.

My awareness, my concern and my direction and urging of the then Government into action goes back to 19 85. I am pleased to say that is one of the recommendations taken seriously by the then Government when I was critic for Health. • (1 400) 213 7 Health Care Media Blackouts Mr. Gul zar Ch eema (Kildo nan): My final supplement ary for the same Minister. This unacceptable delay came to light because of the patients speaking about this issue. We see tha t health care profess ionals will not comment on the problem because of media black out. Mr. Sp eaker, will the Min ister of Health (Mr .

Orchard) tell us- are there any other problems in our health care system being covered up by media blackout? Hon. Donald Orchard (Mi nister of He alth): Mr . Sp eaker, let me indicate to my honourable friend tha t 18 months ago not only were Man itobans wait ing upwards of six weeks for radiother apy, they were indeed going out of province to receive it. As much as my honourable friend wishes to show tha t he cares for tho se ind ividuals who unfort unately need rad iotherapy treatment in the Province of Manit oba, he is not alone in tha t desire for impr ovement.

That is exact ly the issue tha t my colleague, the MLA for Gladstone (Mr s. Oleson), my deputy critic, the MLA for River East (M rs. Mitchelson), and myself, over the last thr ee years, have dr awn to th e previous administrati on's atten tion. As a result of that, and I give them credit, the y approved the capital expenditur e for new radioth erapy equipment which, because of its sophistication, is not instantly at the snap of a finger available and instal led. That process is under way.

In the meantime, the circumstanc es of undue delays do exis t for certa in ind ividuals and th at is most unf ortuna te and tho se are una cceptable levels of treat ment. Manitobans are not going out of province any more for rad ioth erapy. There have been changes made in order to enhanc e the capability with the existing equipment. Contr ary to my honour able friend 's allegation of a media blackout, I am not aware of any media blackout that has been manda ted by any health care institut ion. lt may say so in various reports, but I am certainly not aware of that. Unemployment Figures Seasonal Increase Mr.

Leonard Evans (Brandon East): Mr. Speaker, today in Manitoba there are 7,000 more people unemplo yed than ther e were last year. This is equivalent to the entir e population of Souris, Carberr y, Melita, Oak Lake, Rivers, Glen boro and Wawanesa combined. On Frid ay, we heard media reports tha t federal employment counsellors in Brandon were suggesting to people looking for work tha t they should begin to look in the Province of Saskatche wan because this coming win ter unem ployment was going to get worse, especially in communities outside of Winnip eg. My qu est ion to the Min ister of Employment Services (Mr s.

Oleson) is what is she prepar ed to do to add ress this problem of gr owing unemplo yment this winter? Hon. Char lotte Ol eson (Mini ster of Employment Services and Economic Security): Mr. Sp eaker, I do

Monday , October 17, 1988 not know where the Mem ber gets his information about people being told to go to Saskatchew an. I certainly have not given a directive like that. I announc ed , in a press release and in this House, on Thu rsday, a program for tha t very reason, because th ere is unem ployment, because people are on social assistance -a program costing $ 1 million; also, an enh ancement of another program tha t helps put people to work. Mr. Leonard Evans: Mr. Sp eaker, the Mini ster asks.

There was a report on the CKND television stat ion to tha t effect, tha t workers should begin looking in the Province of Saskatchewan . Job Funding Initiatives Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East): The UIC office of Brandon is saying tha t higher unem ployment is expected this win ter. The figur es, the latest we have for tha t region , have gone up from 5. 7 percent to 7. 1 percent in the West man area. Tha t is for the month of August. Tha t is the latest we can get so far out of Stats Canada. So the figur es show tha t as we ll.

The Min ister annou nced last week a structural unempl oyment program -n ot hing for the downt urn in the busine ss cy cle. Will the Min ister now reconsider her position and rei nstate the Job Training for Tomorrow Program or other job funding initia ti ves to give some work to people in tha t area? Hon. Char lotte Oleson (M inister of Em ployment Services and Economic Security): This gives me an oppor tunity to remind the Member tha t the Job Tra ining for Tomorrow Program is st ill ong oing. The funds are committed . We are not ta king any new people into it, but the program is st ill ongoi ng. Mr.

Leonard Evans: The Min ister does not seem to real ize tha t tha t mone y is running out and there will be fewer people being helped by it. lt will soon be finished. I say tha t is anot her reason why we should consider funding the Unemp loyed Help Centre in Brandon in the future. Federal Sales Tax Changes Impact on Manitoba Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East): I have my last quest ion tha t I would like to add ress, if I may, to the Min ister of Fina nce (Mr . Man ness).

While our economy is going into decline, the federal Govern ment is pursuing a sales tax proposal tha t will take $500 million per year out of Manitoba's economy, cost ing Man itoba fam ilies, on average, $1, 050 in taxes. Will the Min ister of Financ e immediately contact his federal counterpart and tell him tha t this proposal must go no further as it would further jeopard ize the economy of the Province of Manitoba? Hon. Cl ayton Man ness (Mi nis ter of Fin ance ): Members, particula rly of the NDP, persist in putting falsehoods on the record .

Let me say tha t there is absolutely no proposal before the province at this time tha t is going to dr aw out larger amounts of sales tax revenue from this province. Right today the offi cial line is, and the one tha t the Province of Manitoba is working with, tha t any change in the application of national sales tax, in combination with provincial sales tax, as was being worked upon by my predecessor, Mr. Kostyra, was going to be a tax neutral to the nation as a whole and to the Province of Manitoba. So let the record be clear on tha t issue. Government's Position Mrs.

Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Opposition): A question to the Min ister of Fina nce (Mr. Man ness). The Minis ter of Fina nce has just ind icated tha t this would be a tax neutral program. Has he, on the basis of reports by the head of the House of Commons Fina nce Committe e-a report which was justified and accepted by a consultant to the min istr y of Fin ance at the federal level which says revenues would be between $8 billion and $ 10 billion - has he consulted with the fed eral Min ister of Finance and said that would be an una cceptable program? Hon.

Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance): Not only have I done tha t, but at the same time there was information coming direct ly to me from Mr. Wilson, ind icating tha t Mr. Blenkarn's sta tement, indeed tho se tha t were associated with it, was far, far off the mark. The Governme nt of Canada, by way of info rmation tha t has come to me from Mr. Wilson, and indeed by way of information tha t comes to me from staff, indicates tha t any cont emplation of sales tax ref orm, na tional , particularly national,

Part 2 of tax reform was going to be tax revenue neutral . Mrs. Carstair s: Has the Min ister of Finance (Mr . Man ness) asked for ind ications from the federal Minister of Fina nce why a consultant from Clarkson Gordon would provide a figur e to the public media tha t this is not neutral but in deed will be ro bbing Canad ian taxpa yers of some $8 billion? Mr. Manness: No ind ividual in this country has a higher credibility tha t is so shaded with fiscal matters than Mr. Wilson , certainly nobody within the federal Liberal Party. Mr.

Wilson has indi cated on many occasions th at any reform with respect to national sales tax would be neutral , tha t the net effect to all consumers of products and services within Canada would be no dif ferent whatsoever, represent no increase in taxation. Tha t word has been direct ly communicated to me again by Mr. Wilson as of last week. Tha t is the final authority on the matter. Tax Neutral Program Guarantees Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Opposition): With a supple menta ry quest ion to the Min ister of Financ e (Mr . Man ness).

Can the Minister of Fin ance tell this House if his correspondence with the federal Finance Min ister has asked a very important question: why has this type of system never, in any ot her count ry, 213 8

Monday , October 17, 1988 ever produced a neutral system ; why it has always resulted in substantial increases to the taxp ayers of those countries so affe cted? Hon. Cl ayton Manness (Minister of Financ e): If the Leader of the Opposition (Mr s. Carstairs) had some basic und erst anding as to increased levies versus across-a- broader scale of taxes, she would realize tha t once a priori condition comes out tha t they be neutral, th at the levies in effect are dr opped if you are going across a wider base. That is how you can guarantee tax neutral ity.

If you are going to keep, in effect , the same levels of tax levy agains t a larger base, naturally there would be more tax on it, but tha t is exact ly what Finan ce Minis ter Wilson said he would not do. He said th at there would be a compensa ting fact or tha t inde ed would guarantee tax neutralit y. Now if the Member wants to sit coyly in her chair and indicate tha t she does not believe it, let her stand up and say so. � Mrs. Carstairs: I have already said it. Mr. Manness: Say it again. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr.

Speaker: Or der, please; order , please. * (14 10) Literacy Task Force Program Funding Mr. Jerry Storie (Fiin Flon): Many of the groups who were supposed to be the recipients or are involved in literacy trai ning in this program were critical of the Minister 's annou ncement on Friday.

The headline in the Winnip eg Sun said, "Group Slams Illit eracy Study ." Manitobans involved in the lit eracy tr aining across this province expected action from this Government when it came to lit eracy and we have an announc ement of a task force. � Given tha t it is already late in this fiscal year and it is unlik ely that this task force will be able to accomplish much of its manda te before the end of the fiscal year, given the need for literacy trai ning in the province, will this Min ister now agree to trans fer some $250,000 of that $300,000 to groups who are actually prov iding tr aining to people in need of liter acy tra ining?

Will he do tha t now so tha t the work of tho se groups, the very valuable work , can go forward? Hon. Leonard Derkach (Minister of Education): I cert ainl y do not accept any of the remarks tha t are being made by the Member for Flin Flon (Mr . Storie). However, I do want to add ress this issue because again the Member for Flin Flon was not correct. From read ing the reports, it appeared as though there was one person who was critic al of the program . I would like to address the issue because the illiteracy rate in our count ry, in our province, is not decreasing. lt is increasing.

Th erefore, we have to address this very serious issue. Mr. Speaker , it was ind icated in the report tha t only some $1 20,000 is being spent on literacy programs in the province. The truth is tha t some $9.2 million is being spent on liter acy programs in this province and our illiter acy rate is sti ll rising. We have to identif y the areas where illit eracy remains in this province. We have to identif y the kinds of programs that we need to implement to complement the programs that are already in existence.

The fed eral Government has just made a huge anno uncement of some $1 10 million which will go to lit eracy programs and which we will be able to access from the federal Government. Right at this present time, of ficials of my department are working on programs wher eby we can access those funds that have been made available to us by the fed eral Government. Mr. Storie: The Mini ste r's suggestion that $9 million is being spent on basic lite racy trai ning is a gross exaggera tion. Order -in- Council No. 1101, da ted September 14, 19 88, indicates $ 13 7,000- Mr.

Speaker: Does the Hon ourable Member have a question? Mr. Storie: -is being spent on lite racy, including the work being done by the school division. Mr. Speaker: Order , please. Chairperson Dismissal Mr. Speaker: Does the Honourable Member have a question? Mr. Jerry Storie (Fiin Flon ): Given that this is an important issue, given that thousands of Man itobans want some answers, want some action, when it comes to liter acy, will this Min ister now agree to remove Mrs.

Vodr ey as chairperson of this task force, who has politic al ties to the Minister, is going to be work ing on this Min ister's agenda, not on the agenda tha t is of int erest to the people involved in trai nin g and the people who need tha t tra ining? Will this Min ister now agree to appoint someone independent who will have the faith of the people involved in literacy trai ning so tha t their int erests will be put fi rst? Hon. leonard Derkach (Minister of Education): Mr.

Sp eaker, I hope you will give me the same latitude to ans wer this quest ion in depth because I do believe tha t it requires an in-depth answer. First of all, the Member for Flin Flon (Mr . Storie), who used to be a Min ister of Ed ucation, did noth ing about literacy and should know that, in fact , right at the present time, we are spending some $5.2 million on adult basic education. Is he denying that this is a form of attack on illite racy in the pr ovince? We are spending another $2.3 million on English as a Second Language.

We are also spending another $ 1. 5 million on li ter acy programs in Kind ergarten to Gr ade 5 level and $ 12 0 million on commun ity-based pr ograms. In addition, I have to say tha t this task fo rce will ident ify how we can complement th ose programs. 2139

Monday, October 17, 1988 I find it appalling that this Member for Flin Flon would raise in this House a slandering or slamming comment against the chairperson of the Literacy Task Force . I am very proud of this task force and I would just lik e to show you the kind of people that are on this task force . We have a woman who is a school psychologist who is heading up this particular literacy task force . Mr. Storie: I am glad to hear the list of other projects that the Department of Educa tion is working on, including English as a Second Language. I was talking about basic literacy .

My question to the Minister is a simple one. Will he consider putting someone in charge of this task force who is independent and impartial and not a Progressive Conservative candidate? Will he consider putting someone in charge of this- Some Honourable Members: Oh , oh! Mr. Storie: Mr. Speaker, may I finish my question? Hon. Gary Filmon {Premier): Terry Sargeant or Phil Eyler? Mr. Speaker: Order, please . Mr. Storie: For the information of the First Minister (Mr. Filmon), who shouted from his seat- Mr. Speaker: Would the Honourable Member for Flin Flon kindly put his ques tion now? Mr.

Storie: -neither of those individuals chaired a task force of this importance to thousands of Manitobans. My question to the Minister is could the Minister not find someone independent , someone who would have the faith of Members of the Legislature , the peopl e involved in training, the people who need this training , who would have- Mr. Speaker: Order , please . The Honourable Member for Concordia, on a point of order . Mr. Gary Doer {Leader of the i;econd Opposition): Yes. The First Minister (Mr.

Filmon) should be setting an example in this House instead of yelling and screaming from his seat on a very important issue dealing with the literacy and illiteracy in this province . I would ask you to call him to order for his comments . Mr. Speaker: I would like to thank the Honourable Member for Concordia. I have recognized the Honourable Member for Flin Flem and I am sure we want to give him the courtesy of listening to his question. Will the Honourable Member for Flin Flon kindly put his question now. Mr. Storie: Thank you , Mr. SpE!aker. Concluding my question-Mr .

Speaker , will this Minister consider appointing someone impartial who would have the faith of these groups, who would be working on a timetable of interest to the people who provide the training , the people who need the training, rather than the Minister 's agenda which, rightly or wrongly , will be suspect in this particular case - this is an important issue-or will the Minister actually provide the money to the groups so that they can provide training? *

(1420) Mr. Derkach: Mr. Speaker, I think Manitobans, not just the House , but Manitobans are taking objection to the kind of comments that are being made by the Member for Flin Flon (Mr. Storie). For the benefit of the House , I would like to indicate that the chairperson of this task force committee is a woman. She is a school psychologist, she is a lecturer at the University of Manitoba and Misericordia School of Nursing , she is secretary-treasurer of a family business , she has served on numerous boards in her community , and she has worked with children 's groups.

She is extremely capable and I believe that Manitobans welcome a person of this calibre to head up a task ' force . In addition, we have on this task force representation from the Native community; we have representations from the ethnic community ; we have representation from the visible minorities , the universities, the colleges , the Manitoba Association of School Trustees , the Manitob a Teac hers ' Socie ty and the Man ito ba Association of School Superintendents . Mr. Speaker, I think this is an extremely capable organ izati on and task force and I look forward to their report , and so do Man itoba ns. Mr.

Speaker: The tim e for oral questions has expi red . NON-POLITICAL STATEMENTS Hon. James McCrae {Attorney-General): Mr. Speaker , I rise to seek leave of the House to make a non-pol itical statement. Mr. Speaker: Does the Honourable Attorney-General have leave to make a non-political statement? (Agreed) Mr. Mccrae: Mr. Speaker , I know all Honourable Membe rs would like to join with me in observing Co op Week in Manitoba , which was proclaimed today .

Honourable Members know that the cooperative movement in Manitoba, including cooperatives and cre di t unions and caisses populaires , have added significantly to the quality of life in this province and have created employment and provided goods and services to many thousands of Manitobans for many, many years. In add ition , Mr. Speaker , Credit Union Day, journee des caisses populaires, has been proclaimed fo r October 20, later this week.

I think all Honourabl e Members would like to join with me in saluting the over 500 cooperatives we have in this province , which include cooperatives as well as credit unions and caisses populaires, and salute them 2140

Monday , October 17, 1988 for the thousands of jobs tha t th ey pr ovi de for Manitobans in addition to all the goods and services that are provided to Man itobans. Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health ): I ask leave of the House for permission to make a non-pol itical sta tement. Mr. Speaker: Does the Hono urable Min ister of Health have leave? (Ag reed) Mr. Orchard: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. As I did a couple of week ago, I had the honour of atten ding a foot ball game at which we declared the ens uing week "Eye Bank Awareness Week." Likewise, Mr.

Speaker , I had the honour on Saturda y of att ending a reception in the Legislature in honour of the homemakers who pr ovide support to seniors and other Manitobans in the province through the Home Care Program and thr ough ind ependent provision of services to the private sector. Mr . Sp eak er, tha t rec eption was to kick off Ho memaker/ Home Su ppor t Wee k, wh ich is to be � hono ured across Canada from October 17 -23.

I know , that all Mem bers of the House would want to join me in wis hing the homemakers across this province, and in deed across this nation, our best wishes and also our desire tha t the y cont inue to provide the kind of qual ity suppor t in the home tha t they have become repu ted to do with such care and digni ty for th ose who need it Thank you, Mr. Speaker . Mr. Sieve Ashton (Thompson): I would also like leave to make a non-politic al state ment. Mr. Speaker: Does the Honour able Mem ber for Thomp son have leave to make a non-pol itic al sta tement? (Agr eed) Mr.

Ashton: As Co-op Development critic for our caucus, I would like to second the sentiments of the Mini ster of Cooperativ e Development (Mr. McCrae). We, certainly , in our caucus, pay tri bute to the cooperative sector . I think it is a sector in the Provi nce of Manitoba because co-ops are involved in many � divergent areas in terms of dif ferent types of businesses and diff erent forms of co-ops and many Man itobans, whether it be through the co-ops thems elves or thr ough cred it unio ns or mem bers of the co-op movement, and we cert ainly salute them during this week.

I know I will have some other sta tements to make which are of a political nature so I will not make them in a non-polit ical vein. Perhaps if I can just suggest tha t we all, as Members of the Legislature, take the oppor tunity to put into practice some of the sta tements tha t we are sa ying on occasions such as this in our everyday act ivities in terms of policy making. Ms. Avis Gray (EIIice): I ask leave to make a non politic al state ment Mr. Speaker: Does the Honour able Member for Ellice have leave to make a non-polit ical sta tement? (Agr eed) Ms. Gray: Mr.

Sp eaker, on behalf of Members on this side of the Hous e, I wou ld like to join with the Govern ment in recognition of Homema kers Week. 2141 Having worked with a num ber of home support staff within the Depar tment of Health, I echo the Min ister's comments when he says tha t we cert ainly recogn ize the very great efforts of these people who do provide a service in our commun ity.

I think onl y when one has had the oppor tunit y to meet home supp ort st aff ind ividually and hear some of the situations with which staff have worked with for 5, 6, and in some cases 10 years in the communit y, we then begin to recogn ize the extreme dedication and self-sac rifice tha t the se homemakers do provide for the aged and infi rmed , and for the younger disabled in the Province of Manitoba. We would join with the Government in recognizing the very great service tha t the se home support staff do provide. I think, Mr.

Sp eaker, we can cert ainly say tha t th ese staff are not paid a large salary, so when people do enter the profess ion they certainly see it as a career. The y enter the profess ion of homemakers and home support staff because they feel very st rongly about providing a service, and they feel they are providing and are off ering duty to the Province of Manitoba and to its people in regard to social services.

I think we should certai nly recognize tha t and join with everyo ne here in saying thank you very much to the homemakers and home support staff without which we would not be able to have such fine programs in the Province of Manitoba. Mr. Jay Cowan (Churchill): Mr. Sp eaker, I would also like leave to partici pate in a non-politic al state ment regard ing homemakers. Mr. Speaker: Does the Honour able Member for Churchill have leave to make a non-political statement? (Ag reed) Mr. Cowan: Mr.

Sp eaker, it is inde ed a privilege and a pleasure to be able to associate our caucus with the remarks of all the individuals in this House with respect to the recog nition of the impo rtant role tha t homemakers play in prov iding service to their clients and to Manitobans all across the province.

We, too, share the pride, and tha t is so evident in the remarks by the Min ister and the remarks by the Liberal critic regard ing the type of service which the y are able to pr ovide. lt has been said by no ted experts outside the province and within the provinc e that Manitoba has one of the best long- term Conti nuing Care Programs in Nor th Americ a.

Tha t program could not gain tha t statute nor tha t recognition if it were not for the ded icated hard work of thousands of ind ividuals across the province who everyday go out on the front lines and deal with the clientele who are so deserving of their service and provide to them the type of quality care tha t has made the program of such excellence.

So we do join with all Mem bers of this House in acknowledging the work tha t they do, in recognizing that th ey do so in perhaps the fine st trad ition of care givers across this province, and wishing them many, many years of cont in ued success in providing tha t quality program throughout the Province of Manitoba.

Mond ay, October 17, 1988 COMMITTEE CHANGES Mr. Edward Helwer (Gimli): I move, seconded by the Member for Lac du Bonne t (Mr . Prazn ik), tha t the composition of the Sta nding Committee on Public Utilities be amended as follo ws: Enns for Gilleshammer. Mr. Ke vin Lamoureux (lnk ster): I, too, have a committee change. I move, seconded by the Hon ourable Member for Transcona (Mr. Kozak), tha t the composition of the Sta nding Commit tee on Public Utilities and Natural Resou rces be amended as fol lows: th e Hon ourable Member for Selkirk (Mr s. Charles) for the Hono urable Member for Niakwa (Mr .

Herold Driedger). * (14 30) ORDERS OF THE DAY Hon. Cla yton Manne ss (Acting Government House Leader): I move, seconded by the Min ister for Northern Affairs (Mr. Downey), tha t Mr. Sp eaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be gr anted to Her Majesty. MOTION presented and car ried and the Ho use resolved itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be gr anted to Her Maje sty with the Honourable Member for Minn edosa (Mr. Gilleshammer) in the Chair for the Depart ment of Community Services; and the Honour able Member for Seven Oaks (Mr .

Minenko) in the Chair for the Department of Agricultur e. * (14 40) CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY -COMM UNITY SERVICES Mr. Chairman, Harold Gill esham mer: I call to order the Commit tee of Communi ty Services. We are on Sect ion 4(

d) Child Day Care. We will start with a statement from the Min ister . Hon. Char lotte Ole son (Mi ni ster of Community Services): The sta tements tha t I have, the last one or two may relate to day care, but the others are inf ormat ion tha t had been req uested on pr evious occasions when we met. There was an inquiry for information as to the num ber of admissions and discharges and read missions to the Manitoba Developmental Centre.

We have prepar ed handouts for tabling: (1) a listing of the new client admissions to the centre, broken down on a monthl y basis for the period of April 19 87 to August 19 88; (2) a listing of the read missions to the centre, broken down on a monthly basis for the period between July 19 87 and August 19 88; and (3) a listing of the num ber of discharges from the centre, broken down on a monthl y basis between the period commencing Janu ary 1, 19 85, through to August 19 88. This includes the period the Welcome Home project was under way and up to the present.

I also have a response to the request of the Members for detailed program inf ormation on special rate funding and additional care and suppo rt un der the Prog rams Branch , services to th e mental and physically hand icapped . We have for tabling the fo llowing -i t is an excerpt from the Opera tional Service Manual -(

a) the program description, (

b) the service ind icators, and (

c) the appl ication process. While th ese are currently in use opera tiona lly, the manual is under review for updati ng. I have tha t information available also. I also have a handout to satisfy the Member's request for the job de scription of the chai rperson of the Evaluation Clinic at the Manitoba Developmental Centre. In response to a Member's request as to the status of trai ning and orienta tion which the department has provided to regional suppor t and administrative staff on The Freedom of Inf ormation Act and the procedure for taking requests, I have the following informa tion for the record .

I will table tha t informa tion with the chairman . In a further response to the Mem bers as to the depar tment's struc tur e to respond to requests for information un der The Freedom of In forma tion Act and the procedures tha t have been put in place to provide information requested, the department has access officers for The Freedom of In forma tion Act. The y are the Assistant Deputy Min ister , Child and Family Services; the Assistant Deputy Minis ter, Community Social Services ; the Exe cutive Director , Admin istra tion and Fin ance.

Access officers are desig nated by the Minis ter for pur po ses of de cision-making on appl ications for access under The Freed om of In formation Act . Second ly, applicat ions for informa tion will be received in all main regional offices listed on the handout. The y will be received by designa ted Freed om of In formation rep resentati ves who will also be respon sible for preparing recommenda tions for the appropria te access officers on whether access should be granted or den ied to the information reque sted .

Thir dly, regional dire ctors, review of ficers, will review the applicat ion, the record and the recommendation prior to submission to the appropria te access officer. The process is highlighted on the attached flow charts. Four thly , the admin istrative access system is consistent across all regional of fices. The system was developed with the cooperation of the Department of Healt h. As well, trai ning for tho se designated positions was accomplished with Healt h. Fif thly, there are no additiona l staff years in reg ional officers to deal exclus ively with The Fre edom of In formation Act.

Six front- line staff in all regions were given an opportun ity to partici pate in an orienta tion to the Act and record ing pr actices over the last one-and a-half years. The record ing practices seminar is st ill available and offered upon request from regional offices. I have a handout and a flow chart which ind icates the steps involved in the pr ocess and a listing of the depa rtmental access locations. 214 2

Monday, October 17, 1988 Also, Mr. Chairman, I have for the Members a

summary of child day care wait ing lists; the Members were inqu iring about the detai ls of tha t and I will table that. Also, I have a list ing of day care centre expan sions approved for development in 19 88-89, which also was of in ter est to the Mem bers and I will table that informa tion. Also, there was some concern expressed about the Childr en with Disabilities Program and I will table the booklet from Manitoba Commun ity Services-Child Day Care, Manitoba Communi ty Ser vices-tha t may be of information and int erest to the Members. * ( 14 50) Mr. Chairman: On item 4. then, Child and Family Ser vices, (

d) Child Day Care

(1) Salaries- $ 1, 341,1 00, shall the item pass? The Member for Ellice. Ms. Avis Gray (EIIice): One quest ion now-si nce we will have an opportun ity to be asking further questions as we go through the day and the even ing-! am wondering if the Min ister has available for us, or could get the figur es, as to the num ber of day program spaces that were allocated in the '87-88 budget year and the two previous fiscal years to that. Mrs. Oleson: The Mem ber is ref erring to the Mentally Handicapp ed Day Program ? Ms. Gray: Yes. I am sorry, the Adult Day Prog ram. Mrs. Ole son: We could get tha t informa tion. Mr.

Chairman: Shall the item pass? Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis (St. Johns): No. Mr . Chair person, I am pleased tha t the Min ister has tabled some informa tion pert aining to this lin e on wait ing lists and construc tion plans for '88-89. My fi rst question is related to a concern based on the question of waiting lists. The Min ister has tabled gener al sta tis tics with respect to a reg ional breakdown. My original concern about what date it was used to result in this new policy still holds no twithstan ding the inf or mation provided.

My question was going to be, and still is, on what basis the Min ister felt tha t the change in policy and the move towards the creation of 500 fle xible or floa ting subsidies would actually respond to the wait ing list probl em and to the question of a policy tha t responds to tho se in greatest ne ed. I am afraid tha t the data does not certainly help me ans wer or give me any insight into that question. I am wondering if the Min ister has more detailed informa tion upon which she based her decision or if it was made in a vacuum. Mrs.

Oleson: I think the list tha t I have tabled with the Member ind icates of course a need for spaces. I would be the last one to indic ate to the Member that those 500 floa ting subsidies would, in every case, be a new need add ressed as far as a space goes, because some of th ose children were already in spaces. But th ere will be some new ones as a result of it. Ms.

Wasylycia-Leis: Given the Min ister 's description of this new policy for the 500 supposed new spaces, could the Min ister explain or give us some information th at would indicate waiting lists by parents eligib le for subsidy in and around communiti es that have private pr ofit day care cent res or unfunded centres or family day centres? Is there a further breakdown that would help us under stand the rationa le behind the 500 spaces? Mrs. Oleson: The rationale for the move was very simple.

Ther e are people who have spaces in their neighbo urhood that they were not able to access because they could not get a subsidy. That was drawn to our atte ntion. This add resses a need which had been expr essed and which we have discussed many ti mes with the Member over the last period of time when we have been in Est imates. Ms. Wasylycia-Leis: Are ther e more spaces in de mand in neig hbourhoods surrou nding th ese private centr es than in areas where ther e are cent res on waiting lists for expanded spaces tha t have been wait ing for add itional funds from the provincial Government for some tim e?

Was ther e a greater waiting list on one side of the equation than the other? Mrs. Oleson: Given the large wait ing list, we needed fle xibilit y to allow people to access the centre of their choice. This gives them flexi bility. This gives them choice in centres. Ms. Wasylycia-Leis: Could the Minister provide us with any kind of num bers that would indicate that th ere will be tha t kind of uptake in this program, in this newly directed pr ogram, and some evidence that this change in policy will go further to meeting the demand than the current policy? Mrs. Oleson: 11 is really too soon to tell. Ms.

Wasylycia-Leis: So I take it from the Minister's answer tha t ther e is no data to back up this change. lt is being done totally on an experimental basis and, once it is up and running, then the Minister will be able to tell if it is working or not. Mrs. Oleson: What I was mean ing was that it was too early to tell. We do not have the data in from the req uests yet, and we may be able to distri bute some of tho se subsidies in dif ferent places later on, but we do not have enough data to give a sati sfactory an swer to the Mem ber right now about what the take-up is on that subsidy program . Ms.

Wasylycia-Leis: With respect to the list of centr es tha t have had expan sions app roved tha t the Min ister has tab led tod ay, I have a few quest ions. First as it related to the day care cent res in schools, the Minister's list includes, I believe, six schools tha t have been app roved for funding of spaces. My unde rsta nding is tha t ther e were a num ber of other schools wait ing for 2143

Monday , October 17, 1988 approval tha t were ready to go for this fiscal year. Could the Min ister ind icate the status of, and I will list the followi ng, Major Pratt , Sister MacNamara, Pinkham, Ashwort h, Mand alay West, Lorette, and Ste. An ne? Mrs. Oleson: Staff have ind icated to me tha t all the spaces that were ready to go have been allocated and approved this year. The ones the Member mentions are to go on stream over the next period of time. The y were not ready at this time to start over the next period , even two years.

I can think of one school right off hand that is ju st in the construc tion stage, so there would be no point in allocating spaces to it because they would not be able to use them this year. Ms. Wasylycia-Leis: So in the case of all the schools that I had menti oned tha t I had und erstood had opening dates for September '88 and, ther efore, were waiting for appr oval for funding of day care spaces, tho se schools have been delayed and will be coming on stream and will be funded as they comp lete construct ion. Mrs. Oleson: That is correct. The y would go on line after construc tion.

For instance, the Member menti oned Sister MacNamara. I und erstand the completion day on tha t is Sept ember '89. Tha t is one example I can recall from the list the Member gave me. Ms. Wasylycia-Leis: Could the Min ister gi ve us assurances toda y tha t all of th ose schools awaiting or in the final stages of construc tion, will have their centres and spaces approved once fully opera tional? Mrs. Oleson: Yes, I have already indicated that. Tha t was part of their agreement when the y unde rtook construct ion of centr es, tha t th ey would be funded . So, yes they will be funded . Ms.

Wasylycia-Leis: Related to the quest ion of day care centres in schools, there are a num ber of schools beginnin g to develop plans for major ren ovations or actual new construc tion, and have been in discussions with depar tment, Government of ficials over a period of time, and cert ainly would want to know the status of funding of day care cent res in schools before embarking upon archit ectural dr awings and certai nly before beginning construct ion. How is the Minis ter dealing with th ose requests and tha t general situa tion?

What is the policy of this Govern ment with respect to day care cent res in schools? Mrs. Oleson: The pol icy has not changed. They ind icate their inter est and apply to the depar tment. If the Mem ber has some par ticular school of par ticular concern, perhaps she could give the names to us, but the policy has not changed in tha t regard . * (1 500) Ms. Wasyly cia-Leis: I can both give a specific name of a school and ask a general question. The school tha t is cer ta inl y of concern to me, in my own constituenc y, is Champla in.

I know tha t they are only at the stage of architectural dr awings and would want to know whether or not to include a day care centre in tho se plans, pending the gener al direction that this Government is going with respect to day care centr es in schools. Then to go back to my general question which is, is ther e a commitment on the part of this Government to incorpo rate day care centres into schools wher e it makes sense when new construction is being plan ned , when ne w school .s are being built, when major ren ovat ions are being un dertaken?

Is it the policy of this Government to tr y to utili ze tha t space for future day care centr es even if the uptake may not be immediately apparent? Mrs. Oleson: The Member menti oned the Champlain School. lt has been appr oved, and the school board has been notified of tha t approval tha t th ose spaces have been approved . With regard to other schools, the task force will be looking at that. I have had discussions and will have discussions in the futur e with the Min ister of Educat ion (Mr . Derkach). lt still of course anyway is subject to the appr oval of the local school board s.

Some of them wish to enter into this and some not. lt is very much a di scus sion with the boards, as the pr evious administra tion did. As I said, the task force will take a look at that. In some commun ities, it may be exactly what the y want and others it may not. The task force will hear the reviews of people on this. Ms. Wasyly cia-Leis: Moving on to some other day care centr es and organ izations on wait ing lists, I have some very specific questions. I hope the Min ister will bear with me.

I have not had a chance to totally cross refe rence it with the list she has provided , but I would like to ask about some specific requests tha t had been before the Minister to see what the status of those requests are to date. The fi rst wou ld be the Little So Peep Day Care in Winds or Park. Mrs. Oleson: Tha t particular centre is st ill on the waiting list for 15 spaces. Ms. Wasylycia-Leis: Could the Min ister explain why tha t one is st ill on the wait ing list and some others have been approved by way of her list tha t she has tabl ed with us toda y? Mrs.

Oleson: The Little Bo- Peep Day Care, I un ders ta nd, already has spaces in existe nce. This was an expansi on. Wha t we had to look at with many of the centr es was how many more spaces they would need to be viable. I think the Min ister would be aware if she has looked at this, tha t someti mes the addition of a couple of more spaces makes a centr e far more viable. Some of them get into financial problems if the y have too few spaces. That was one of the criteria we had to look at in allocation of spaces.

So some of them got some additional ones to make them viable, but this one was st ill on the waiting list. The y apparently had an expansion program and th ey will be looked at another time. Ms. Wasyly cia-Leis: Just to seek clarifica tion, it was my understan ding tha t this centre was seeking a couple 2144

Monday, October 17, 1988 of additional spaces to ensur e financial viability and tha t tha t had been recogniz ed previously. Has ther e been a change in status with respect to tha t original classificat ion? Mrs. Oleson: We can get the Member an answer later . We would have to do some checking. Ms. Wasylycia-Leis: Simila rly, I believe the St. Vital Day Care Co-op had been promised a couple of spaces to ensure financial viability. I do not believe I see that one on the list either . Is ther e an explana tion? Mrs. Oleson: Maybe the Member could ind icate where she got her informa tion.

If she does not want to on the record , maybe later, because we do not have a record of them on the waiting list requiring extra spaces. Ms. Wasylyc ia-Leis: Certain ly, I would be happy to indicate to the Minis ter tha t this is information based on the previous Governmen t's involvement with respect to day care. This is from a list of day cares that needed � additional spaces to ensur e financial viabilit y. lt was ' with some concern tha t I saw that some of them were not on this list tha t the Min ister has tab led with us tod ay.

I am just wondering if there has been a change in policy or a change in the day care circumstances. Mrs. Oleson: lt is ind icated to me tha t the y did not req uest the spaces. The staff have checked and there may be one, you know, in the daily routin e of working in the da y care office. They had checked and thought th at perhaps tha t one may in the future, but the y have not appl ied for extra spaces. Ms.

Wasyl ycia-Leis: Running through a few more in a similar situation very quickly: Kinder Korner in Stein bach, Sout hwest Day Care in Brandon, University of Wi nnip eg Students' Association, the Rain bow Day Nursery. Mrs. Oleson: Sout hwest got two spaces, as per the list tha t I circulated earlier; Southw est Co-op In c. in Brandon; UWSA, I believe, is another one. The staff may have ind icated that it was one tha t would potent ially be request ing spaces, but none have been appl ied for. Ms. Wasyl ycia-Leis: Rain bow Day Nursery. Mrs.

Oleson: lt is going to be a similar situation with Rain bow. lt is not on our list of appl ications for spaces. * (151 0) Ms. Wasyly cia-Leis: And Kinder Korner in St einb ach? Mrs. Oleson: 1t also does not appear on our wait ing list, so it would be a similar circumstance with it. Ms. Wasylycia-Leis: With respect to some cent res of a more sign ificant requirement on the part of the province who had, I believe, previously been inf ormed of fu nding, I have questions pertai ning to Action Centre Day Nursery, Assinib oine Kiddie College, and Ma Mawi Wi Chi ltata. 214 5 Mrs.

Oleson: Action Centre has not developed its infant spaces yet so we cannot consider it until they are ready to fill the spaces. Ma Ma wi Wi has not got its space identified yet. The y have been work ing on the project for, I unde rstan d, a couple of years and the y have not identif ied the spa ce. What was the other one you asked about? Ms. Wasylycia-Leis: Assinib oine Kiddie College in Br an don. Mrs. Oleson: That is the centre in the Commun ity College. The y are not on the waiting list eith er. Ms.

Wasylycia-Leis: I can appr eciate the fact tha t certa inly, in the case of Action Centre and Ma Mawi Wi Chi lt ata, th ey are not in the final stages of est ablishing their new day cares, but in order to take it the next step th ey will need the assistance of the pr ovince in one way or another and some indication of commitment, particularly with respect to Act ion Centr e Day Nu rsery as it is an inf ant centr e expansion.

Wha t is being done to ensure tha t this day care space is developed as quickly as possible and what effo rts are being un der taken to ensur e tha t the long waiting lists for infant day care are being dealt with, are being responded to by the province, specifically with a case like Action Centre Day Nursery but more generally with respect to the situation fa cing fa milies everywhere. Mrs. Oleson: The Action Centre, which the Member was just ment ioning, are in the pr ocess of gett ing their capital funding together and the y will be conside red next year. All the se will be consid ered for next year's spacing.

We have, as the Member has ind icated , a waiting list and the y will be under considera tion when we are allocati ng spaces next year. Ms. Wasylycia-Leis: If I could ask about one other grouping of da y cares or the req uest before the department, some of which I know are cer tainly up and ready and simply waiting for some autho rization from the province. Forg ive me if I have repeated any that are on the list already.

I will run thr ough the list quickly and you could perhaps give me a status report on each one: Lord Roberts Day Care, Laura Secord Commun ity Child Care, Anne Ross Day Nurser y, Provincial Emp loyees Care for Kids, which I think we have been over and over, The West Broadw ay Children 's Centre, The Red River Commun ity College day care and Parent Child Centres, which I believe has been touched on previously by the Member for Ellice (Ms. Gray). Mrs. Oles on: Would it be accept able to the Member tha t instead of taking up the time of the committee, we could send her a status report on th ose later?

We have the inf ormation but it would take a while to go over it all for each one. We could send the Member the in forma tion. Ms. Wasylycia-Leis: I wou ld certai nly appr eciate receiving the details with respect to each of th ose day cares. There are some, I know, tha t have been waiting

Mond ay, October 17 , 1988 for provincial approval for some time and I do not believe th ere are any fact ors sta nding in the way of tha t, other than perhaps an insufficient numb er of dollars based on this new pol icy, insufficient allocation of spaces for such centres, and I think specifically of- 1 will give the Min ister one specific example, or two. The Anne Ross Day Nursery is a very good example of a day care tha t has been waiting for expansion for some time. lt has the physical capacity to expand .

Certainly , I regret it never received the fu nding while we were in Go vern ment but I know tha t it was on the list to receive funding as soon as possible. lt should have been possible this year if it were not for the change in policy on the part of the Con servative Govern ment.

Can the Min ister explain how she can move in a direct ion of un cert ainty with respect to the se fle xible subsidies, th ese floa ting subsidi es, and yet not fund 15 spaces at the An ne Ross Day Nursery which is geared toward meeting the special needs of inn er city kids, and which would meet precisely th ose objectiv es of fle xibility and meeting the full range of day care needs by going this route? Is th ere some explana tion? Mrs.

Oleson: I have un dertaken to give the Member a status report on tho se, but with reg ard to the Anne Ross centre, I un derstand it has been requesting for thr ee years so I am wondering why the Member was not ment ioning this in Esti mates for the last th ree years. Ms. Wasylycia-Leis: As I just sa id, it is certainly a regret of mine tha t this centre was not funded previously Mrs. Oleson: Mine, too; mine, too. Ms.

Wasylycia-Leis: However, it certainly was part of the plans for this fiscal year, had this most un fort unate election not taken place. 1t would have received the benefits of this major increase in the Budget tha t this Min ister is so often wont to claim as her own Government's init iative and bo ast about tha t increase.

Given tha t the increase is the same, given tha t the plans were to respond to such non-p rofit day care centr es tha t met the whole range of day care needs in the province and tha t would have gone some distance to meeting the object ives of flexi bility in a concrete way, not in an uncertain fa shion as is being pro posed by the Min ister's new policy, why is it being excluded? Why are 15 spaces in the Anne Ross Day Nursery being excluded from the list of app rovals this year, given the fact tha t we are tal king about the same kind of increase with respect to the two Budgets? • (15 20) Mrs.

Oleson: I have unde rtaken to give the Member a report on that. Anne Ross,

part icularly, is listed on the listing of day care spaces to be consider ed for next year. lt is unfortun ate th at we cannot meet all the needs. I think the Member should real ize tha t ther e is a limitation, unf ortuna tely . 1t will be under conside ration at another time. I will forward to the Member the status and the reasons for what she had requested before on the information on status of th ose centres. Ms.

Wasylyc ia-Leis: However , on this one, I am reque st ing some thing more immed iate from the Minis ter, toda y if possible, with respect to why tha t centr e and any of th ese other cent res I have listed tha t are obviously ready to go, have been wait ing for fu nding, have been lead to believe tha t th ere is a good chance tha t the y will be eligible for funding this fiscal year and yet are not on the Min iste r's list simply because of this change in policy which has seen a good chunk of the mone y available for expansion of non-pr ofit centr es di verted , red ir ected in to uncha rted waters, into uncertain directions.

Could the Minis ter explain why she would not fi rst meet the request before her from the non-pr ofit child care commun ity from cent res tha t have been waiting for some time and from committed organ izations who see a need tha t must be met and tha t will result into, with the will of the provincial Government and the funds behind it, immediate benefit to a variety of commun ities and ensure the flexi bility tha t she is ta lking about? Mrs. Oleson: I have ind icated before tha t we will send the Member the informa tion. We know and she should know tha t we cannot meet all the needs tha t are conside red .

They will be considered for fu nding. There are many, many on the wait ing list, and I am sure the y are just as deser ving as the Anne Ross centre. They will all be consid ered when the funds are available. lt could happen tha t maybe some spaces are not quite ready to go this year and th ere may be able to be some reallocation of funds. Tha t someti mes happens. As I said before, we will consider tha t particular centre along with other s for funding another year. Ms.

Wasylycia-Leis: Could the Min ister give us some assuranc es toda y tha t if in deed there are cent res up and ready to go from the non-p rofit community who have been waiting for some time and under some expectat ion tha t th ey would receive funding this fis cal year, if she finds tha t is the case in doing her research on each of th ese centr es, would she gi ve us a commitment toda y that she will direct money from tho se 500 flowi ng subsidies to meet the needs of the se centr es which would only be, I would guess, less than a couple hundr ed spaces?

Would she, in the inte rest of ensuring tha t real needs are met in concrete, immediate ways, will she divert funds from th ose 500 floating subsidies to respond to the less than 200 spaces from centr es waiting for some time to be funded? Mrs. Oleson: I think the Member has said it herself. They have been waiting for some time. We will be mon itoring the take-up of funds in all the areas with a fi rst basis. We will try to make the best use of the funds available. If we discover in some area tha t there is not as much take-u p, we will be able to shift it around.

We will make the best use possible of the funds tha t we have available. Ms. Wasylycia-Leis: Could the Min ister give us some explana tion why it would not make sense to take a little bit of tha t money as set aside for th ese 500 so called floa ting subsidies to, as she put it, to private 2146

Monday, October 17, 1988 centr es and use tha t mone y to meet some very specific needs from groups, from day care centres, that have been patiently waiting for some time. I do not think it is in anybody's best int erests to pass blame. I am certai nly not here to do tha t tod ay. I am simply, in the interests of the se day cares, wondering if, for the few dolla rs we are talking about, the little bit of shif t in her policy tha t it would take to ensur e tha t the se day cares that are up and ready to go, either new day cares or day cares waiting to expand, could not be guaran teed fu nding for this fiscal year.

Mrs. Oleson: The Member should remember tha t in the annou ncements I made ther e are 420 new spaces tha t have been allocated , so it is not as if we are not fu nding any spaces thi s year. I have indic ated several times this afternoon tha t all the se other cent res will be under consideration for fu nding as soon as we possibly can. Ms. Wasyly cia-Leis: Yes, I un derstand, in the figur es that the Min ister gave us on Thur sday last tha t we are talking about 420 new spaces, all of which are not clearly earmarked for centr es or spaces.

In the scheme of things, either by way of lack of uptake with th ose 420 spaces or from the se 500 floa ting subsidies, could she simply give us a commitm ent toda y tha t th ose cent res not on her list tha t she has tabled, that are waiting, that are ready to go and waiting for Government fu nds, will get tha t assurance for this fiscal year? Mrs. Oleson: The Member is being a lit tle unr ealistic. I have indicated that as soon as possible we will fund as many of th ese spaces as we possibly can. lt would be unr ealistic to say that we could take the whole waiting list and fund them this fiscal year.

I think the Mem ber should reconsider her stat ement because tha t would be impossible. We have fu nding limitations. We have allocated a very generous budget to child care. lt may not be as much as everyone would like. We would all like to see more spaces funded , but that is the allocation we have. We are going to make the best possible use of it we can, and the se people who are on the waiting list who have been ther e for some time, some of them , and were not funded by the previous Government, we will get them into the stream as soon as we possibly can . That is the commitment tha t I am making. Ms.

Wasyly cia-Leis: Can I take it from tha t lack of commitm ent on the part of the Minis ter then that she is more prepar ed to see funds from her depar tment, taxpa yers' mone y, diverted to day care cent res tha t are interna tiona lly owned or American owned , with the obvious result being tha t some of this money is diverted south of the border than to see that mone y go into helping 15 kids in the North End whose lives are precarious, to say the least, and who are certai nly in dire straits for good qualit y non- profit care. Is tha t the Minis ter's priority? Mrs.

Oleson: Again the Member is missing the point. These are children; th ese are Canadian childr en. We are not funding American children. We are subsidizing low income Canadian Manitoba fam ilies. I hope tha t is the last time I have to explain tha t to the Member. Ms. Wasylycia-Leis: Does tha t mean the Min ister will ensur e tha t no fu nds are directed for day care spaces, for subsid ized spaces going to any profit-orient ed , particula rly American-owned day care chain? Mrs. Oleson: One more time: the subsidies are going to the fam ilies who have children, low income fa milies.

The subsidies are on behalf of children. Th ese children are Manitoba children who are going to day care centres in Mani toba. The funding is not going directly to th ese organ izations, in essence, it is going to them on behalf of children. I will say again: children of low income fam ilies who need a subsidy, who, if the y apply for the subsidy in the same way tha t other subsidies are applied for, th ey are paid out in the same way. No changes have taken place in that regard . Th ese centr es have to be licensed , regulated under our Mani toba laws and th ese children are Manitob ans. Ms.

Wasylycia-Leis: Is the Minis ter then saying if 15 parents who would like to receive subsid ies to send their children to the Anne Ross Day Nursery apply for th ose funds tha t she will both ensure tha t the subsidy goes with th ose parents to the Anne Ross Day Nursery and ensur e tha t the additional maint enance grants and salary enhanc ement grants are forthcom ing for tha t day nu rsery? Mrs. Oleson: The prior ity with this is using exist ing spaces. Ms.

Wasylycia-Leis: The Min ister is in effect rev erting back to what she said originally and tha t was clearly said in black and white in the House and in Est imates that this proposal, this new policy direction, would meet the needs and the concerns coming from a numb er of private for profit child care cent res about vacancies they may have at the moment and about their own viability and prof itabili ty. * (15 30) Mrs. Oleson: The Member should be aware that th ere are 30 spaces in the Anne Ross centre, tha t is what she is ref erring to, and subsidies are available for th ose children.

There are already 30 spaces there, ther e are subsidies available. If she wants to clarify her question she is shaking her head- whether she does not like the ans wer or maybe I am answ ering the wrong question, but maybe some clarification would help. Ms. Wasyl ycia-Leis: Basically, my quest ion is of a much more general natur e than that. Without a doubt, we know that there is a great need in the communi ty surro unding the An ne Ross Day Nursery. We know th at the re is a long waiting list. I think tha t the Minis ter is aware tha t there is a long waiting list.

We know tha t the subsidizing of 15 spaces or the sponsor ship of these 15 additional spaces at the Anne Ross Day Nursery will go a little distance toward meeting the needs of a hard-pr essed commun ity. My quest ion to the Minister: is she prepared to deny tha t community and tha t day nu rsery the ability to respond to the needs in tha t commun ity in favo ur of 2147

Monday , October 17, 1988 funding existing vacant spaces without any certainty tha t th ose spaces will be filled or utili zed by subsid ized parents? Mrs. Oleson: I have said before I am aware tha t th ere is a probl em in tha t particular neigh bourho od. They ne ed more sp aces and I have indicated to the Member tha t we will certai nly be considering it for next year's funding. I am sure tha t in the 30 spaces tha t already exist there, there will be subsid ized children. We will work on tr ying to get tho se other spaces funded for next year. Ms. Wasylyc ia-Leis: I am get ting a little frust rated .

I am off ering the Min ister a way to save some face in terms of this most illogical pro posal, to me certain ly. That is to come up with the will to red irect resources to meet a few spaces, less than 200 spaces no doubt, in centr es where there is a clear need and a clear ability to begin immediately to provide tha t day care service and still move ahead with her experimental project of this floa ting subsidy. She said tod ay, and has said before, she does not know if it will work, does not know if it is going to meet any need .

Here is a chance for the Min ister to tr y to not back off completely from what appears to be an illogical proposal , but still meet the needs of the commun ities. Wha t is stop ping the Min ister from resp onding to the funding of less than a couple of hundr ed spaces tha t are waiting and needy in order to proceed with this magical numb er of 500? Mrs. Oleson: I have told the Member tha t we certai nly would and I am sure the previous Minis ter reall ocated within the whole space fu nding. If there was not take up in one area, then it was moved to anoth er. I have told the Member I would do tha t.

I cannot tell the Member tha t I will inject millions more dolla rs or thousands more dollars into it. This is this year's budget. Those are the allocations tha t I have listed to her, handed her out in a spirit of cooperat ion, handing out informa tion. Those are the spaces tha t are being allocated . If for some reason th ose spaces are not able to be util ized by the places the y are allocated to, then we can reallocate funds. I have ind icated tha t we will, as soon as possible, fund th ese other spaces besides the An ne Ross centre. There are many, many needs in the commun ity, in all communities.

We are doing our best to tr y to meet th ose needs. We fall short, of course, of meeting every need and tha t is reality. Ms. Wasyly cia-Leis: The Min ister insists, whene ver we get into this discussion, tha t this policy is not one of responding to a certain segment of the day care economy or the day care segment of our society, but rat her tha t it is a subsidy tha t goes with the child. Could she explain exactly how it will work in terms of achieving the objective tha t she is talking about? On Thu rsday, the Min ister mentioned tha t the parent applies.

Today, she is saying it is going to existing spaces in existing cent res. Now, who is going to benefit exactly? How will it get allocated ? How are you going to spread around 500 spaces? Mrs. Oleson: If the Member will refer to the sheet tha t I handed out tod ay, at the bottom of it, it says: "Flexible day care subsidies at private cent res and homes, 500 spaces allocated to 25 percent of each centre's or home's licensed capacity." They would not be able to get any more than tha t.

I have ind icated on several occasions tha t the parent, as in the case of a parent in a public centre, the parent would apply, the same criteria will be used as to income. The subsidy will be approved or disapproved as the case may be depending on the circumstances. Then the funds will be paid on behalf of the parent to the centre upon receipt of att endance records and other informa tion in exact ly the same way as the public centr es are funded.

I think the Member would probably be the fi rst to complain tha t it was a great deal of extra work and administrativ e paperwork if we were to pay each subsidy to the parent . I think it is a far more admin ist ratively ef ficient way to pay it directly to the centre, but it is paid on behalf of the child in the same way as it is paid to the other centr es. Ms. Wasyly cia-Leis: Mr . Chai rpers on, I am not questioning the original way or the current way in which subsidies are paid for. I am simply questioning the public policy behind the decision to allocate Government funds in this way.

The Min ister has said time and time again it is a subsidy to go with the parent. However, from time to time, she will also ind icate tha t it is a subsidy to go to private cent res. If she thinks tha t ther e is some confusion out here about her policy, it is because of her own description of this policy tha t is causing the conf usion. I remind her of the num ber of ti mes she has talked about this program being one wh ere the subsidy will now go to the pr ivate centre, that this has been a major brea kthrough in order to meet the needs of private, for-profit child care centres.

The Min ister is shaking her head right now and whene ver I do mention the fact . These are her words, not mine. I would ask her, th erefo re, if tha t is not the case, why it would be in a letter from Mini Skool to parents of tha t day care, why the y would say shortly before the elect ion outcome of this year the follo wing words: "I am encou raged tha t fut ure polit ical changes may see some Governme nt funding available to private child care centres, th erefore, st abilizing parent fees ." Mrs. Oleso n: Th ose were the words of the Mini Skool organ ization, not mine. * (1 540) Ms.

Wasyly cia-Leis: But the y are no doubt pleased with the Min ister's decision? Mrs. Oleson: They are pleased , as the parents of children are, tha t ther e is more flexi bility in the syst em, tha t parents who live in the neighbou rhood where th ere is a privately owned , ind ependent day care centre, are able to take the childr en ther e and get a subsidy. As I have said before, the Member and I will never agree on this issue. lt is an issue which she does not 214 8

Monday , October 17, 1988 agree on. She says we are departing in to brand new un charted waters. I have rem inde d her on several occasions that we are not, tha t other provinces also have this similar system of subsid ies to children. As I have ind icated on many occasions, the Member and I can debate this for a long time, but philosophically we are not going to agree on it. So I think we should both accept that. Mr. Chairman: Sha ll the item pass? Ms.

Wasylycia-Leis: Can the Min ister assure us today that no day care will be allowed to charge more than the set subsidized rate by the province if the y are eligi ble for floa ting subsid ies? Mrs. Oleson: The subsidy plus the extra dolla r, they will be allowed to charge the subsidized children. Ms. Wasylycia-Leis: Is the Min ister at all concerned about the fact tha t this is the fi rst time a two-tier system or a two-class system will be establ ished in the Province of Manitoba? Mrs.

Oleson: The objective of this, as I have indicated many ti mes before, is to provide fle xibility to parents and to provide fle xibility in the system . We feel th ere is certainly room for public child care. There is also room for people who opera te as their busine ss a child care centre. Ms. Wasylycia-Leis: The Min ister is not concerned about being the fi rst to establish a two-t ier syste m, a two-class syste m, a break from a move towards a un iversal child care system? Mrs. Oles on: Actually what this is, it is an extension of a prog ram that was already in place.

There were 235 allocations of subsidy to private cent res and this is an ext ension actually of that. Ms. Wasylycia-Leis: Again, I do not think we need to go over old history but I will again put on the record the fact tha t was a grandpar ented arrangement. In recent history, no attempt has been made to move this province towards a two -tier system. In fact , this will be the fi rst such time in the recent histor y of the Provinc e of Manitoba tha t Government funds have been used to set up a two-t ier system of day care. Is the Min ister satis fied with being a pioneer in that regar d ? Mrs.

Oleson: I do not consider myself a pione er. lt is already a syst em that is in place in other places. I do no t consider tha t I am pioneering child care. Ms. Wasylycia-Leis: Let me just put the question once more in a more direct way.

The Min ister is not concerned at all about moving the day care system , now known to be among the best in North America because of its univ ersal accessibility and its high standards of qualit y, toward a system of Government funds directed to a day care system where quality is not always guaranteed by vir tue of the fact that these cent res, to which the Min ister is now listen ing and cate ring, will have to make a profit or the y would not be in the business, and where Government funds are directed to the establ ishment of two sets of fees, to at least two dif fere nt levels of fees in one particular centre, moving sharply away from any notion of a universal accessible high quality system.

The Min ister has no regrets and no concerns in that regard? Mrs. Oleson: As I have ind icated before, we are in ter est ed, I am in ter ested and Mem bers of my Govern ment are interested in fle xible, quality affordable child care. We have introd uced more fle xibility into the system to make it affo rdable for people who before this were den ied subsidies in some centres. The Mem ber, I believe, is doing a disservice to the regulations, guideli nes and the rules tha t are in place if she thinks tha t we are not going to have quality child care.

Under the licensing and the regulations in this province, the standards have to be met. They would not be gett ing a licence if th ose standards are not met. The same standards are in place. The same licensing procedures are in place. The same methods of applying for and receiving subsid ies are in place. I think the Member will be pleasantly surp rised in the futur e when she sees tha t the system will work . Ms.

Wasylycia-Leis: I do not think we need to go over the ground covered last Thur sday about quality in day care when in fact the Min ister has ind icated then that she is not aware of the research in the fiel d, has not taken the time to brief herself on the data available that will clearly ind icate to her if she had taken the time tha t commercial care has sign ificantly greater proble ms in achieving and maintai ning high quality care than non- commercial child care. There are other factors tha t the Min ister may want to consider.

Once we are th rough Estima tes, in reth inking her policy, let me ask her specifical ly if she has had a chance to come back with any further review of a comparison of licensing order s with respect to commercial spa ces and non profit spaces? Mrs. Oleson: The Mem ber was asking about licensing orders. In 19 86-87, th ere were fiv e in homes, th ree in commercial centres, and one in non-p rofit centr es. In 19 87-88, two in homes, one in commercial cent res, and one in non-pr ofit centr es. * (1 550) Hon.

Harold Neufeld (Minister of Energy and Mines): We seem to be in a philosophical discussion on whether private day care or public day care is the an swer to our day care system. I think we should be more concerned about the welfare of the child. If inde ed the private day care system does not provide the care tha t the Member for St. Johns (Ms. Wasylycia-Leis) thinks it should and indeed the public day care system provides better care, the an swer in the marketpla ce or the marketpla ce will answer very quickly and the private day care system compan ies will not exist .

I canno t see her concern if she believes in deed tha t the private day care system is not as good as the public day care system. Ms. Wasylycia-Leis: I can see that we are headed down the road towards a real th reat in all areas of our 2149

Mond ay, October 17, 1988 social polic y, but that is the mentality th at this Government is bringing to basic questions such as child care. I am wonderi ng-this is not a question, but a rhetorical question -i f the same kind of philosophy and approach is appl ied to our universal health care system and our public education system and so on, and related to tha t-m y quest ion is certainly to this Min ister -w hy this Government believes th at it can take such a different approach with children between the ages of zero and six as com pared to six and beyond.

What is it about the child's development tha t encou rages thi s Government to make such a sharp break in policy and accept profit services, services provided by private, for-profit enterpris es, among younger children and I believe, at least to date, not end orse tha t fully for beyond the age of six, un less of course it is the policy of this Govern ment to support, and the y are jus t not fully aware of it yet, the pr ovision and del ivery of education, move in the direct ion of private, for-profit delivery of education. Mrs.

Oleson: As with child care, some people choose to sent their child to one particular centr e. Some people choose to stay home and look after their children. Some people choose to send their child to a public school, some to a private school. Parental choice is very important here. People need to have some fle xibility and some choice of where th ey educate their children, where they have their childr en cared for. To atte mpt to meet the needs of fam ilies, we need to give them some choice. Ms.

Wasylycia-Leis: Not to deb ate this much longer , but obviously we are not ta lking about ind ividual choice and parental choice and so on. We are tal king about what is the best use of taxpayers' money, of Government funds.

I think what we are seeing toda y is a sharp move away from both the questions of Gover nment funds being directed towards non-p rofit, public, cooper at ive ef forts, and a Government tha t is prep ared to risk quality of care and quality of education, quality of health care, quality of services for seniors in order to see whether or not the marketpl ace can do its job and can st ill provide tha t level of care and make a profit.

Let me quickly ask a couple mor e questions, not to go over old gro und, but simply to ask if the Min ister we have now heard from the Min ister about her unde rstan ding of the research in the field and the fact tha t she is not aware of all of the studies, which almost unanimo usly ind icate higher quality care in the non profit sector than the commercial sector. We have been given the evidence from the Min ister which shows th at there have been more licensing orders consistently issued to commercial spaces tha n to non-pr ofit spaces. The data presented by the Min ister , I think, clearly indicates that.

Would the Min ister now ind icate whether or not she is aware and has she taken into account the fact tha t commercial centr es will no t meet the trai ning requirements with respect to qualified directors and staff nearly to the extent tha t is being met in the non profit sector? Is she happy with dir ecting Govern ment funds to centres with this floa ting subsidy concept, to centres where ther e are clearly major discrepancie s in terms of qualif ications and trai ning of staff and direct ors? Mrs. Oleson: I would remind the Member tha t all the cent res are und er the same licensi ng, the same regulations.

I would also remind the Member tha t many of the studies she refers to were not taking into account the Manitoba regulations and licensing requirements. The y were done on other areas and did not take th at into account. If the stud ies had been done based on Manitoba guidelines or so, the y may have been fairly dif fer ent. Ms. Wasylycia-Leis: I will remind the Minister tha t the studie s included some national analysis of national data which would cover Man itoba, which would reflect the views of Manitobans, which would reflect the quality of care generally .

I also asked her if she was prep ared to direct the task force to embark upon some original resear ch, and she would not make tha t commitme nt. With respect to my la st question on training requirements, this is not a question, I remind the Minister, of strictly meet ing stan dards. This is a question of guidelines set by the provincial Government to ensur e qualified directors and staff by a certain period , October I believe of this year.

The fact of the matter is that private cent res, commercial cent res are much less likely to have met the ret rai ning req uirements and the qual ifica tions set by the pr ovince than non-pr ofit centr es. Is the Min ister st ill prepa red to embark upon this new pol icy dir ect ion of Go ver nment funds, taxpayers' money going in the direction of cent res where ther e has been much less of a commitment, much less of an int erest in trai nin g requirements and qualified directors? Mrs. Oleson: The centr es are un der the same guidelin es to acquire the trai ning before the deadline as the public centr es are. Mr.

Neufeld: I have a few questions for the Min ister. lt is my und ersta nding tha t a private day care centre receives no basic subsidy and the subsidy will go with the child if the parent qual ifies. That is an in come qualification, to my un derst anding. In a public day care centre, is th ere a basic subsidy for each child regardless of whether or not the parent qualifies or does not qualif y for the subsidy?

Is th ere a capital subsidy for -m y unde rsta nding is ther e is appro ximately $ 10 per child in a public day care centre tha t the public of course pays for each and every child, whether or not the parent qualifies for subsidy. So no matter how rich, in a public day care centre, the parent, each child gets a $ 10 subsidy per day. Is tha t correct ? Mrs. Oleson: The Member is correct in his assumption. Whether it is priv ate or public, the subsidy goes on behalf of the child to do with the income of the fami ly. But with the private centres, th ere is no maint en ance grant, no salary enha ncement grant.

Tha t only goes to the public centres. Mr. Neufeld: So I am correct then tha t in the case of a private centre, the public purse pays less per child 215 0

Mond ay, October 17, 1988 than in the public day care centre? We have to assume that the care is ident ical be caus e there is some supervi sion on care, is there not? Mrs. Oleson: Yes, tha t is the case. * (16 00) Mr. Chairman: Shall the item pass? Ms. Wasylycia-Leis: No. Every time we have an interject ion, it just causes some more questions to come to mind. So I have a few more questions. I wish the Min ister responsible for Senior s (Mr .

Neuf eld) had been here on Thu rsday when we covered a lot of this territory in terms of what objectiv e research and empirical analysis says about qu ality in commercial day care versus non-p rofit day care.

I would also recommend to him tha t he consider perusing Hansard of last Thu rsday, and I certainly have copies of all of these various studies with objectiv e data and empirical evidence to lead everyo ne in the field to say tha t ther e is gener ally-a nd this comes from parents as we ll, it was going to be my next question to the Min ister concern , more often from commercial day cares about standards and about care and about programs, than th ere is with respect to non-pr ofit day care centres, or parents from day care centres.

I think the Min ister should know, and will know from staff, that I am sure tha t it is the case, tha t there are sign ificantly more complaints from parents concerned about commercial care than non-pr ofit care. Is that not enough of a basis for causing the Minis ter to be a little more cautious about this new approach of subsid ies to priv ate centres? Is not the fact tha t there seems to be much more of a concern coming from parents who are forced to ch oose priv ate commercial day care, is that a concern to the Minis ter in terms of this policy, and how will she be hand ling that in the future? Mrs.

Oleson: We will be monitoring it, of course, to be sure tha t all the centres, whether publicly or privately owned, are providing the quality service that we require. The day care office assures me that they fo llow up on every complaint. They go to the centre within two days of receiving a complaint. Then they follow up with a written review of the complaint and make sure that any changes they have asked for are complied wit h. No w, I am ref erring to both in dependent and public centres. All complaints are treated with the utmost seriousness and th ey are acted upon immediately. Ms.

Wasylycia-Leis: The Min ister has indi cated on a num ber of occasions tha t she believes stron gly in creat ing choice, choice for parents and obviously choice for their children. Can the Min ister indicate if she concurs with her colleague's remarks, the Member for River East 's (Mr s. Mitchelson) remarks in the North Times when tha t Mini ster suggested tha t people who earn more than the income level making them eligible for a subsidy, should actually resort to private day care, should be using private day care? Does the Min ister support her colleague's comments? 2151 Mrs.

Oleson: I have indi cated on many occasions tha t we want to provide choice to parents, and many of them will choose private day care. Many of them will choose public day care. That is up to them. I think the Member forgets tha t the taxpa yers who pay bills for th ese cent res and pay bills for all our social services would like to have choice in how their funds are spent, and this is but one aspect of that. But if parents wish to choose a private centre, for whatever reason, tha t is fine.

If they wish to choose a public centre, as long as one is accessible and I do not think we would-w e want to provide, as I have indi cated before, qualit y, af fordable child care for the people who need it. We cannot meet every need , as we have talke d about before, but if we did not have any of tho se commercial centr es providing care, the public purse would be in even worse shape than it is. Ms. Wasylycia-Leis: The Minister did not hear my question.

My question was, did she agree with her colleague's remarks which indicate clearly that parents earn ing over a certain income level should not have choice and should be in fact be required to send their childr en to private day care. Mrs. Oleson: I indicated no. lt was not a policy. lt was the expressed opinion of one Mem ber. Ms. Wasylycia-Leis: The Min ister is disassociating herself from the comments made by the Min ister of Cultur e (Mr s. Mitchelson)? Mrs. Oleson: Not really .

She is quite entitled to make them, but we are not going to force people to go to private centres, if tha t is what the Member is trying to get me to say. There are not enough spaces and the Mem ber would be up here complaining and carrying on about that, if I were to be making that policy. Ms. Wasylycia-Leis: Is the Min ister not concerned at all about a Member of her own Cabinet or a Member from her own colleagues suggesting that anyone making over the mini mal required for eligibility for subsidy should not be taking advantage of Government funde d non-p rofit child care spaces?

Because of this misconception tha t the Min ister of Energy and Min es (Mr . Neuf eld) has just shown, he is bearing this same misconception about this incredible cost being borne by tax payers and showing a complete lack of faith and und erstanding about the non-pr ofit sector and about Govern ment's involvement in funding of day care. Is the Min ister not concerned about one from among her group who is prepared to make that kind of public comment? Mrs. Oleson: I do not know in what context the Member for River East (Mr s. Mitchelson) said tha t.

I do not know at what occasion or what prom pted that, or whether it was repor ted ly correct ly. If the Member is indi cating it was repor ted in the newspaper , ther e have been on rare occa sions mis takes made in newspapers of repor ting. Mr. Neufeld: I can state quite categ orically and I know my point is supported by many taxp <::yers out th ere

Monday , October 17 , 1988 ind eed and by many taxpa yers within my own constit uency that, if a person makes more mone y over a certa in minimum amount, the y should not be subsidized and, in a public day care syste m, they are subsidized.

One of my constituents told me: we have thr ee children; my husband makes just enough for us to get along, and it upsets me no end tha t I choose to stay home to look after my own children and people out th ere decide the y both want to work, two worker s in a fam ily, and my tax dol lars are suppor ting their lif estyles, their trips to the South, their cottages at the lake, their two cars. I totally agree with tha t sentiment. * (161 0) Ms. Wasylyc ia-Leis: Well I think we now have it on the record exactly the sent iment expressed by the Min ister of Cultur e (Mr s.

Mitchelson) in the North Ti mes of October 5, 19 88, a fairly antiqua ted and insen sitive, reg ressive right- wing approach to the provision of child care in this province. My question now to the Min ister even more than ever, is this the policy of this Government? Is this her policy? Is this the direct ion tha t she is moving the day care system in? Is this the path tha t she is tak ing this province down ? Mrs. Oleson: The Member will note from previous discussions tha t the only change in policy with regard to child care has been the fle xible subsid ies. Ms. Wasyly cia-Leis: Mr.

Chairpers on, I just have a couple of more questions before I pass it back to the Member for Ellice (Ms. Gray). Can the Min ister give us assurances tha t she is not pursuing a change in the legislation, in particular

Section 31 of the day care legislation, to make it possible for salary enha ncement and mai ntenance grants to go towards private-for-profit day care? Mrs. Oleson: I will remind the Member tha t the Day Care Task Force is looking at all the se issues. At the moment, I have no plans to change any legislation but I will wait until the report and recommendations by the task force to see what they may recommend in th at regard . Then I would have to make a decision on whether or not I follo w th ose recommendations. Ms.

Wasylycia-Leis: Could the Minis ter outline for us what plans she is un dert aking currently to deal with concerns expressed by the staff, directors and parents of non-pr ofit day care centr es about inadequate plans for enhancing salaries and for increased maintena nce grants? Mrs. Oleson: The Member will recall tha t the salary enh ancement gr ants were increased this year at the same level as what the y had been last year. The Member will also be aware tha t already work is being done on preparation of budgeting for next year.

All th ese thing s will be consider ed when we are considering our ne xt year's budgeting. Ms. Wasylycia-Leis: Is the Min ister opera ting under a long- term plan for deal ing with the question of inadequate salarie s of day care profes sionals, any targets tha t she has set for herself and is hoping to meet both ne xt year and the year after, or the year after, or the year af ter? Mrs.

Oleson: That is one my goals is to establish some sort of plan. lt stri kes me more and more in this department tha t lack of planning is the reason why we are in some of the great diff iculties tha t we are in now, not only in this area but in most of the areas of the depar tment. Lon g-term plans are something tha t are a goal of mine. Whether they are achievable or not in this tenuous hold we have on Government is something else. That is one of the things tha t I think is very important to do is to plan for the future and let people know your dir ection.

If you cannot give them the total fu ndin g the y require this year, at least th ey will see tha t down the road th ere will be some improvement. There is some plan of action. We are working on tha t and, hopefu lly, we can achieve some sort of a long- term plan. Ms. Wasylycia-Leis: What are the Min ister's plans for deal ing with any non-pr ofit day care cent res that may be forced to come in with a deficit this year? Mrs.

Oleson: lt is indicated to me tha t there are none tha t are really fa cing anything major now, but the department will work with anyone tha t has fina ncial diff iculties to see what can be done to alleviate that. Ms. Wasylycia-Leis: Is the Min ister giving us some assurances th at she will pick up the deficits of any non profit centre? Mrs. Oleson: I canno t give the Member tha t assurance because I have not got in front of me any

part icular case or reason. 11 would be rather fo olish to say, oh, yes, I would pick up any deficit. I canno t write blank cheques for any of the areas in my depar tment . Ms. Wasylycia-Leis: I am just simply trying to get a sense from the Min ister about how she is planning to deal with problems tha t appear to be looming on the horizon th at were expressed by the hundr eds of letters and petitions signed by day care workers and parents and direct ors and so on about keeping up with the costs of running a good quality child care, given the current budgeta ry priorities.

Does she have any handle on tha t long- term question? What are her plans? How will she deal with day cares if and when the y incur difficulties in terms of keeping up with costs, in terms of providing and continuing to provide the kind of quality day care tha t many of us believe is so important? Mrs. Oleson: All of us believe it is important. The letters tha t the Member referred to mainly dealt with salary. Most of the letters at least I received dealt with salary. The same salary enh ancement grant was given as it was last year.

I have not had an indicat ion from any centre tha t their viability is defi nitely in question. We certai nly will monitor that carefu lly to make sure tha t the y are all operating in the best way possible. But as I indicated before, I am no t in the busine ss of handing out blank cheques. 215 2

Monday, October 17, 1988 Ms.

Wasyly cia-Leis: lt is my un derstan ding tha t the concerns expressed by all of th ose day care workers, professi onals, parents, users, board members, and members of the Manitoba Child Care Associat ion were not simply focused in on better salaries for profes sionals, although tha t is certai nly one big concern and very much related to the question of conti nued quality care, but we are also concerned about an ability to maintain high standards and good quality given the current situation with respect to maint enanc e gr ants, given their sense tha t mone y is being diverted into unkno wn directions, into questionable directions.

So my question is still one of what assuran ces can this Min ister give to all of tho se committed day care providers and communit y activists tha t the non-pr ofit child care community and service will not be allowed to suffer, will not go th rough any kind of a set back. * (16 20) Mrs. Oleson: One of the ind ications tha t I am aware of this and wa nting to get in formation and fe ed back on this whole problem, I do recogn ize it is a problem, and tha t was one of the reasons a task force was set up and they will be repor ting on what direct ion we should go in regard to financing and how it should be achieved.

Cert ainly we know that there are diff iculties. Some areas, however, of my depar tment are looking at the day care part of the department in saying they would like to be able to be funded as wel l. Then the day care

part is saying the y are not well funde d . There ar.e a lot of problems. I imagine and I know they were drawn to the atte ntion of the previous Government over and over again as well. Ms. Wasyly cia-Leis: To tr y once more to raise this issue and get some assuran ces from the Min ister , my question is, given the concerns being expressed by tho se most fam iliar with this field, th ose providing quality day care in the non- profit sector, given the sentime nts expressed by some of her colleagues, most recently put on the record by her colle ague, the Min ister responsible for Seni ors (Mr .

Neuf eld), given tha t lack of commitment to a universal high quality child care system , given the fact that this Government to date has shown no reserv ations about moving in the directions of a tw o-tier system of possibly segregated day care syste m, given all of the signals provided by the Min ister and, more critically, by the fran kness and blunt ness of some of her colleagues, what assurances can this Min ister give tha t no matter what previous election com mitments have been made and no matter what ti es exist between this Government and a few in dependent operators, the non-pr ofit day care service and communit y will not undergo a set back, will not suffer any deterioration in terms of quality and the fu nding that is requi red to ensur e tha t qual ity is maintained and enhanced?

Mrs. Oleson: The Member should just particularly note this year's budget. There has been a huge increase, $7 million is to me a huge commitment. Tha t is $7 million extra, so I think that should assure the Member that this Government intends to fol low along with day care, the provision of qualit y, aff ordable day care in this province. I do not know what I could say tha t would assure this Member because she is not easily assured , shall we say. This year's budget should be a good example. We are working, as I told the Member before, we have a task force working on da y care. That is a commitment.

I also told the Member tha t we will immedi

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	34-1-58a
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	34th 1st hansardpdf 58a.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	a48d0e0b76df33d529674c4457171f62cf2ac10e

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