VOL. 3 THI:o.o SFSSION OF THE THIRTY-~HNTH G;FN:'"RAL ASSEHBL'! OlC t1:0:WFOU~TDLNlD :ORELIHINAP.Y UNO::DITFD TPANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSE~~LY FOR '!'HE PFRIOD: 3:00 p.m. - 6:00 p.m. TUESDAY, MA.RCH 13, 1984 no. 2

March 13,1984 The House met at 3:00 p. m . Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR.SPEAKER (Russell) Tape No.31 ah-1 Order, please: STATEMENTS BY MINISTERS Mr. SPEAKER: The hon. President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker,on Thursday last when the Supreme Court brought down its decision on the offshore, down the street,as it were,the National Energy Board handed down a decision on the application by Hydro Quebec for a permit to export energy to the New York Power Authority. Now, Mr.

Speaker, government had thought that we might make a detailed comment with respect to this discussion,but in view of, as the ~hrone Speech indicated yesterday,the sensitivity of the negotiations with the province of Quebec and in the interest of these negotiations,government is going to refrain for the present time,or defer for the present time a detailed comment. But in the meantime, Mr.

Speaker, I will table a copy of the news release and the reasons for the decision,which is dated January 1984,although,coincidentally, it was just handed down on Thursday. · And I just say I have only one copy here now but if any hon. members are interested in it,I am sure that all they have to do is advise theClerk of the House and then we will arrange to get other copies for them. But in the meantime, as I say, I want to make it clear that because of the sensitivity of the negotiations we are not going to make any comment on it until a more responsible and acceptable time. 91

March 13,1984 MR. SPE!> .. KER (Russell) : Ministerial Stata~ents? ~ . BAR.-qY: that . MR . SPE.li.!<ER: Scio . MR . BAR.-qY : Tape No . 31 ah -2 Are there any other Ju st a brief response to The hon. member for Mount Mr .

Speaker, I believe that the people o: the Province and tills House would be interested in knowing ,a nd I believe that they should be told 1 as to the level at which negotiations are proceeding,whether it is at the level of Planning and Priorities Committee to Quebec Hydro Board of Directors or the Planning and Priorities Committee of the Quebec government,or whether it is at the level of the Newfoundland Minister of Energy (Mr . Marshall) to the Quebec Minister of Energy, 92

•!;,: March 13, 1984 Tape 32 EC - l MR. BARRY: or whether it is merely the Public Utilities of each province discussing the matter. I relieve that the minister should make it clear,if it is the latter case, whether there are any guidelines set by government under which the Utilities are discussing this important issue. t1R. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER (Russell): Opposition. MR. NEARY: ORAL QUESTIONS Mr. Speaker. The hon. the Leader of the Mr.

Speaker, yesterday, in rebutting what I had said in my few remarks about the offshore, the court decision and so forth and so on, the Premier indicated, at least to my way of thinking, a change of position; they changed their stance somewhat. And he said that he was prepared to negotiate tomorrow and sign a deal. Now, if the hon. gentleman means what he says and if he is sincere, why has he not gotten in touch with the Prime Minister or with the federal Minister of Energy (Mr. Chretien) with a view to getting back to the negoti­ ating table at as early a date as possible? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

PREMIER PECKFORD: Well, Mr. Speaker, I do not know if the Leader of the Opposition heard the open line show from 1:45 p.m. to 2:30 p.m. today. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! PREMIER PECKFORD: If he did, he would realize that his party is in danger of extinction if they do not start changing their position on some of the fundamental issues that face this Province, I am going to tell you right now, Mr. Speaker. A lot of people out there are very concerned about this issue and are very, very agitated about it, as I am, and as all hon. members are. I am sure. 93

Mazcl"l 13, 1984 Tape 32 EC - 2 PREMIER PECKFORD : Secondly, i'lr . Speaker, I do not know 1-1bere the Leader of t.:1e Oppo sition U1r . Neary) has been for the last year o= so, bu:: \ve sat down •.vith the Government of C a~a da back in the Fall of 1982 t, negotiate and 1ve advanced exactly the same position as I adva.'1ced yesterday .

So how the Leader o:f the Opposition can say this is a ne1-1 position absolutely escapes me . ~v e advanced the position in -:he Fall of 1932 , the Ninter of 1982 to January , 1983 which was exactly identical to the position advanced yesterday - exactly, pre cisely, to the 't' or the dot of the 'i' - ~'1d that was ~~dis that we would, and did, sit do1m at the negotiating table and agreed with the fede ral authorities to put the question of ownership aside and to negotiate a management agreement and a revenue sharing agreement. Unfortunately, t:he Eederal 94

!1arch 13 , 19 8 4 Tape No. 33 HJ - 1 PHEMIER PECKFOPD: government, first of all, nut a condition on those talks - talk about ?reconditions - put a condition on those talks that nothing would be in writing, 'We will just talk.' So even though we were only going to talk and verbalize, it was rreant, as f~r. Chretien said at the time, to create a framework to see whether there were enough common threads from both sines so that later vou could get to writing something down. So we agreed to it and the minister responsible, the Government House Leader (Mr. Mars~all), and Mr.

Chretien sat down and they talked, ~1r . .Sneaker, and they talked and they talked and they talked. A.nd at the end of the day, it seemed as if there ~vas a fraTCJ.ework for an agreement, and the minister at the time more or less indicated that. Then, when \ve had the frame>vork vJhich was verbally agreed to, it came time to start putting that down in writing, and so we began to put our position down in writing within the framework that had been verbally agreed upon by both ministers. \~e Put it dovm in good faith, honestly, straightfonvardly. Then we took the initiative again.

We were the first to put it in writing - thev did not want to; they were waiting on us - so we had to take the initiative, we had to go the extra mile and we did. Then, of course, we had to ask them to respond to us in writing. And, as they started responding to us in writing, there was a decidedly different position being put on the table than what had been agreed to ve'rbally in that frame1-'Jork to make sure vou had the right environment to 7mt it in wri tinq, ~1r. Speaker. 95

March 13, 1984 Tape 34 PK -1 PREMIER PECKFORD: And so what came out of those discussions, and those negotiations was a position by the federal government which said,'No say in management.' So that was the management agreement. It was the same ajministrative proposal that was put on the table about twelve years ago or ten years ago, and they had not moved one iota, not one inch.

And on the revenue sharing proposal,the response that they put on the table was marginally worse -our experts went and used our computer model and got a bottom line on it-and it was marginally worse than the Nova Scotia agreement on revenue. Now, Mr. Speaker, in the last three or four days1Mr. Chretien, in the House of Commons,indicated, you know, 'Come o~,Bill, boy, come on;Brian, boy, back to the table. You know, we want to help Newfoundland.

We only want to do what we can.' But he went on to say1under some questioning, that he was looking at an agreement like Nova Scotia's.Now the Nova Scotia"government and the federal government in their study demonstrated that the Nova Scotia agreement is not going to make Nova ScoDia financially better off1 that there is very little too it.

Of course, now,Nova Scotia has got to protect their $589 million they get in defence, they could not lose that and a few other t~ings, and they are in a different situation as it relates to the volume of the resource,in any case, or the value of the resource~ So there has to be created , Mr. Speaker, and we will go back and use Mr. Chretien's words, 'An environment in which there is the probability rather than the possibility - MR. HODDER: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Order, please! The hon. member for Port au Port on a point of order. 96

March 13, 1984 Tape 34 PK - 2 MR. HODDER: Mr. Speaker, I would like to make it very clear,before I start my point of order,that we on this side understand that the Premier's remarks are important. Mr. Speaker, you know, this is the beginning of a new session; we have a half an hour for Question Period. The Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) merely asked a simple,straightforward question about getting back to the bargaining table. The Premier is using the opportunity to make a speech. Now, Mr. Speaker, Beauchesne says that answers should be as brief as possible. Page 131,

Section 358. And, you know, are we going to have to go through this? If this House means anything,then we must b~ able to get as much information on this side of the House as we possibly can. Are ministers going to play this game? I wish ministers would sit in Ottawa where they have about three-quarters of an hour to ask questions and sometimes fifteen opposition members can get up and ask questions. I realize, Mr. Speaker, that points of order also come out of Question Period that is why we rarely ever raise them, but this is the beginning of a new session and we want the ability to be able to ask as 97

March 13, 1984 Tape No. 35 SD - 1 MR. HODDER: many questions of as many ministers as possible and we want the government to be strong enough to be able to take whatever we have to give them. And those long-winded speeches,which could be condensed and more concise,are unnecessary. MR. MARSHALL: MR. SPE AKER (R usse ll) : MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker. The hon. President of the Council . Mr. Speaker, that was a very nice lecture by the han. gentleman. We appreciate it very much to try to get us off in the right tone in starting off the session. If the han. gentleman wants to quote Beauch .esne, Mr.

Speaker, page 131, paragraph 358 No. 1 says: 'Such questions should', and then the han. gentleman can come down to '(

e) not ~e of a nature requiring a lengthy and detailed answer'. Now, Mr. Speaker, as I heard the Leader of the O?position (~r. Nearyl 1 he asked a question of the Premier of t~is Province with respect to perhaps one of the most importa~t issues that is confronting this Province today in all of its import , and all of its seriousness. He asked the han. Premier, the Leader of the Government, as to when the Province, if the Province, was going back into negotiations. Now ~he question is ·, is the hon. Leader of the Opposition serious when he asks the question? Does he want a response?

Does he want a full response, does he want a half response or a quarter ~esponse? Mr. Speaker, the fact of the matter is th .e question which was asked is one which requires an obviously lengthy answer. Tt either h.as to have a lengthy answer or no answer because there would be a complete misinterpretation. So, Mr .. Speaker, if the han. gentlemen want to ask questions that require . instant answers 1 th .ey should really be instant questions·. What the han. Leader of the Opposition asked was a question that required a lengthy,and,I must say,a very ful: and complete answer ,as he is getting. SOME HON.

MEMBERS: Hear, hear!' 98

March 13, 1984 t-I.R. NEARY : t-I.R. SPEAKER (Russell) : Leader of the Opposition . M...~ • • NEARY: Tape No . 35 SD - 2 To the point of order, Mr . Speaker. To the point of order, the bon . Mr . Speaker, the hon. gentleman, of course, playing \.,rith Nords, distorted the Hhole thing completely out of proport ion and I would like to put it back in its proper prespective, Mr . Speaker. Hy colleague raised a point of order under Secti on 358 of .Beauchesne, No . 2, '.l\nswer s to questions should be as brief as possible} should deal with the matter raised, and should not provoke debate', Mr . Speaker.

No\v the hon. gentleman yesterday said he was prepared to nego tiate tomorrow and sign a deal . And I asked the hon . gentleman, if he 99

March 13, 1984 Tape No. 36 MR. NEARY: meant what he said,why has he not been in touch with Mr. Chretien or the Prime Minister to get back to the negotiating table? NM - 1 Now, Mr. Speaker, that is a simple question. The answer that came back from the hon. gentleman was something about a hot line or an open line. I understand they were burni~g the midniqht oil la~t night trying to get twenty-five or thirty recruits, the Tory open-line brigade1to line them up to talk to the Premier today. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh~ MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Order, please: MR. NEARY: Now, Mr.

Speaker, if the Premier wants to play that kind of a game, according to Professor Mark Grasser it is the Premier who is in danger of extinction in his own Tory stronghold of St. John's. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please~ The Chair recognized the hon. the Leader of the Opposition (!'Ir. Neary) speaking to that point of order • Certainly he is straying somewhat from speaking to the point of @rder raised by the hon. member for Port au Port (Mr. Hodder). MR. NEARY: Well,any\<Tay1the fact of the matter is, Mr. Speaker, we are not going to play the mug's game with the han. gentleman.

There are rules that have to be followed in this House, they apply to both sides of the House, Mr. Speaker, and my han. colleague was quite justified when he raised a point of order on

Section 358 1 Oral Questions where it states beyond any shadow of a doubt that the answers to questions should be as brief as possible and not provoke debate. All we are doing is asking Your Honour to enforce that rule. 100

March 13, 1984 MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : to that point of order. MR. OTTENHBIMER: Tape No. 36 NM - 2 The hon. Minister of Justice Mr. Speaker, the point of order raised is an extremely interesting one and one which, as the hon. gentleman who raised it pointed out, points of orders do take up the time of the House and of the Question Period,but being such an important one,it is,I think,worth and indeed necessary to give it the fullest consideration. Now hon. members have quoted ~rom page 131 Beauchesne,

Section 358, and the first few lines of 358 put it in a context, "In 1964, the Special Committee on Procedure" - that was of the House of Commons "recommended the following guidelines, which were subsequently concurred in by the House, to be used by Members in asking or answering oral question." This was in the House of Commons in 1964 and they are still operative. And it deals with asking questions and answering questions be~ause obviously the two have to go together; the question to a large extent determines the nature of the answer. That is very obvious.

A number of the subsections there have been referred to,but there is another one which I think is very applicable as well and that is that questions, and it says, "should not raise a matter of policy too large to be dealt with in an answer to a question." Now, you know, my own view is that it is difficult to say. You know, I am not sure that I aqree myself personally with the sugqestion that questions should not raise a matter of policy of such a large nature~but it certainly follows that if a question does raise a matter of policy of very important nature, then obviously 101

March 13, 1984 Tape No. 37 MJ - 1 l1R. OTTEN HEIMER: the answ er is goin g to be partia lly conditioned by the nature of the question . SOME HON .ME! ·ffiERS : MR. HODDER: Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) for Port au Port. HR. HODDER: Hear, hear! To that point of or de r, Mr. I recognize the han. the member Mr. Speaker, the Hinister of Justice (Mr. Ottenheimer) did a great job of trying to confuse the whole issue,but I would like to point out, Mr. Speaker, that t~ere is another guiding principle here.

I have visted other jurisdictions across Canada and I have visited the House of Commons in Ottawa and watched Question Period on many occasions,and I would ask government members opposite,and particularly the government ~inisters opposite, are you afraid to answer our questions? Is this going to be the little game that you play, such as you are now playing,by opening the House - SOME HON. MEl.ffiERS : Oh, oh! HR.

HODDER: - two or three weeks later than normal, you are trying to get out of the House -the budget comes down on Tuesday, we will probably never see the Throne Speech again -are you afraid to face the Opposition~ MR. WARREN : SO~...E HON. MEMBERS : PREMIER PECKFORD : MR. SPEAKER: point of order. PREMIER PECKFOPn: Hear, hear! Oh , oh! To that point of order, Mr. Speaker. The han. the Premier to that I take exception, Mr. Speaker, to that point of order. I was in the process of answering the question when the members of the Opposition raised the point of order. Are you afraid for me to answer the questions? 102

March 13, 1984 Tape No·. 37 HJ - 2 S0r1~ HON. HE~ffiEHS : Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER (Russell) Order, please! Order, please! The point of order raised by the hon. the member for Port au Port (Hr. Hodder) is bas icallv a valid point of order. The Question Period is designed to ask as many questions and to receive as many answers as is possible.

However, it is also true, perhaps, that sometirr.es the very nature of a ,.,_,estion requires a rather lenghty answer and maybe the fault for that might lie with the Chair in that any questions that the Chair considers to require lenghty answers perhaps the Chair should direct the ~erson asking the question to put them on the Order Paper rather than ask them in the House. But I would remind hon. members that questions and answers sqould be as brief as possible. MR. NEARY: PREMIER PECKFORD: HR. NEARY: Excellent ruling, Mr. Speaker. I have not finished rnv answer.

The Speaker just ruled that the hon. gentleman was out of order. SOME HON. MEMBFPB: Oh, oh! HR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! The Chair ruled on a point of order raised by the han. the member from Port au Port and did not rule the Premier out of order. I would ask hon. members to keep their questions short and hon. members to my left to keep their answers short. I would ask the Premier if he would sum up his answer verv briefly. PREMIER PECKFORD: Thank you very much, 103

March 13,1984 PREMIER PECKFORD : that ruling . SOME HON. MEMBERS : PREMIER PECKFORD: Tape No. 38 ah-1 r1r. Speaker, I appreciate Hear, hear! As I was saying, Mr.Speaker, before I was rudely interrupted by the member for Port au Port (Mr. Hodder),the whole question of what our position is relative to the offshore 1 our position today is exactly the same as it was in the Fall and the Winter of 1982 and January 1983 1 and that is that we were prepared to sign a management,revenue-sharing agreement with the federal government concerning the offshore and put the ownership aside =or all time.

And at that point in time the federal government did not live up to its verbal agreements with the Minister of Energy for Newfoundland (Mr. Harshall) the Minister of Energy for Canada (Mr. Chretien) the other day in the House of Commons, Mr. Speaker - SOME HON.MEMBERS: Oh, oh! PREMIER PECKFORD: I am going to sum it up. I am summing it up, Mr. Speaker. - has reiterated that there is no other position on the table from the federal government only an Nova Scotia type of agreement.

We have to have a framework and an environmentinwhich there is the possibility, yea, the probability, of signing that agreement, not to get sucked into negotiations, build up the hopes of Newfoundlanders that there is an agreement,only to have the =ug hauled out from under us at the last minute. SOME HON.MEMBERS: MR.NEARY : MR.SPEAKER: Opposition. MR. NEARY: Hear, hear! Mr. Speaker. The hon. Leader of the Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. 104

March 13,1984 Tape No. 38 ah-2 MR.NEARY: I am not sure whether I understand the hon. gentleman correctly or not. Is the hon. gentleman saying that he is prepared to return to the negotiating table,to accept Mr. Chretien's invitation to come back and to bargain at the negotiating table? Is he saying that he is prepared to drop any pre-conditions in order to get the negotiations started again? MR.SPEAKER (Russell): The hon. Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr.

Speaker, there are no pre-conditions but there has to be 1in the same way as there was in the Fall of 1982 1 an environment and an atmosphere in which there is the real possibility , as I said probability,that it is going to be successful. We do not want to get into the same charade as we were in the last time where we went in with our eyes open, we were prepared to start negotiating without putting anything in writing,only to find that the rug was hauled from under us at the last minute.

So we need to see some seriousness on behaLf of the federal government that they are willing to consider the whole question of offshore Newfoundland in a management,revenue-sharing agreement superior to the one that is now in place in Nova Scotia. To go back to the negotiating table in the environment where the phrases and comments are being used, that it is an administrative 105

March 13, 1984 Tape 39 PK - l PREMIER PECKFORD: arrangement, that it is like Nova Scotia and that kind of thing 1 does not create an atmosphere in which there is a real chance of success, Mr. Speaker. And Mr.

Chretien is trying to have it both ways; he is trying to signal to the Canadian people and the Newfoundland people that, Oh,yes,he is willing to sit down and negotiate,and at the same time he is not willing to sit down and negotiate, he is just willing to try to get us into a pressure situation between ourselves and the Canadian Government where we cannot walk away from the table and then have to sign something which is not in the long- term best interests of this Province. SOME HON. ~~ERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER (Russell): The hon. member for Mount Scio. MR. BARRY: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to ask the Premier a question. There was a statement given after the Throne Speech yesterday, I believe, to one of the television stations, where the Premier Lndicated that he believed that the federal PC Party would be reviewing its position on offshore resources. I wou:d like to have the Premier confirm whether this is the case~ Is it a fact that he has been informed that the federal Progressive Conservative Party will be reviewing its position on the offshore? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: I think what I said yesterday, Mr.

Speaker, as I understand it the federal Conservative Party has a number of task forces established dealing with monetary policies, fiscal policies, social policy, economic policy. I am not aware that they are specifically reviewing their present position on offshore resources. But I _know that they are engaged and have quite a few people working on policy positions 106

.....,. March 13, 1984 Tape 39 PK - 2 PREMIER PECRFORD: leading up to the next federal general election . I a.'tl not aware that they are revie,o~ing the present position that they nmo~ take as it r~ l.::o. tes to offshore , which is to treat t he off~shore the s~e as if i t were onshore . M.R. BARRY: MR . SPEAKER (Russell ) : MR. BARRY : A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. The han . member for Mount Scio. Mr .

Speaker , if in fact these ongo i ng revie,.,s are taking place with respect to imp0rtant aspects of the federal Progressive Co~nservative Party ' s platfo~rm and po:.icy 1 will the Premier be seeking a '-1ritten commitment from Mr. Mulroney, the Leader of the Fede r al Progressive Conservative Party,before the next federal election? MR . SPEAKER: The han . the Premier . PREMIER PECKFORD: Well, Mr . Speaker, as I said there is a review on economic policy, social policy and the other policy issues . The policy of t~e Conservative Party is clear, it has been repeated by the member for st . John's West (Mr .

Crosbiel, t~e finance critic in the Opposition Party in Ottawa right now , and 107

March 13, 1984 Tape 40 EC - 1 PREMIER PECKFORD: I do not foresee any change in that and, you know, we look forward to the Conservative Party being elected the Government of Canada and then confirming and getting on with the job that was set in motion by Prime Minister Clark in the letter that he wrote us at that point in time. So we do not perceive that we are going to need written assurances. We believe that the policy of the P.C.

Party will continue to be in Canada what it is today, that is that the offshore will be trea.ted the same as is onshore, and I must say, that is a much better policy than the present policy of the Liberal Party of Canada,to which the hon. member adheres. MR. BARRY: SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER (Russell): MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker. Hear, hear! The hon. the member for Mount Scio. Mr. Speaker, the Premier has indicated that there have been certain supportive statements made by Mr~ Crosbie. Now, I am sure all of us here would have liked to have seen Mr.

Crosbie win the leadership campaign and become the leader of the federal party, but in fact that is not the case, so I w·ould like to ask the Premier whether he has in any form, written, verbally or otherwise, communicated with Hr. Hulroney to request that he state his position on the offshore and whether or not he has requested that that position be put in writing? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier .

PREMIER PECKFORD: I think the hon. member can be assured that in ~he very near future, the Conservative Party of Canada, if it needs to be done and if the hon. members on the other side wish it done, that they will be reaffirming their· ·position as it is now, that the offshore should be treated the same as if it were onshore. I would call upon the members opposite to get the same 108

March 13, 1984 Tape 40 EC - 2 PRD!IE.~ PECKFORD : kinds o! assurances out of the Liberal Party of Canada as He have of the Conservative Party of Canada. SO~ffi HON . MEMBERS: MR . BARRY: MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Hear , hear ! ~.r . Speaker. The hon . the ne11'.ber fer :-10\mt Scio . MR . BARRY : ~r . Speaker , I think it should be noted that the Premier did not ans\ver - which is his right- my last question . 109

March 13, 1984 Tape No. 41 SD - 1 MR. BARRY: I asked the Premier whether he had communicated with Mr. Mulroney in any fashion to request of Mr. Mulroney that Mr. Mulroney -not Mr. Crosbie, not Mr. McGrath and not any other member of the PC caucus-but whether he has communicated with the Leader of the federal PC Party to request that that Leader set forth his position on offshore resources? I believe this House deserves an answer to this question, a direct answer. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER (Russell) PREMIER PECKFORD: Hear, hear! The hon. the Premier. Mr.

Speaker, the Liberal Party is presently the Government of Canada and I call upon the hon. member,and all hon. members opposite ,to have their Party adopt the same policies federally as the Conservative Party has. That is what the hon. members opposite should be doing. SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. SPEAKER: MR. BARRY: SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. SPEAKER: MR. BARRY: Oh, oh. Order, please! Mr. Speaker. Oh, oh. Order, please! The hon. member for Mount Scio. Mr. Speaker, again it should be noted that the Premier has refused to deal with the question and,therefore, Mr.

Speaker, one must conclude that the Premier has made that communication and that Mr. Mulroney has refused th .e Premier. SOME HON '. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. SPEAKER: MR. MARSHALL: MR. SPEAKER: on a point of order. Oh., oh. Order, please:· Oh, oh., Order, please~ A point of order, Mr. Speaker. Th.e h.on. President of the Council 110

ll!. March 13, 1984 SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER (Russell) MR. MARSHALL: Tape No. 41 so - 2 Oh, oh. Order, please! Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman knows,or he ought to know 1 that these are supplementary questions, this is not the time for speeches. Certainl y not a time for speeches from the han. member at any time. MR. SPEAKER: SOME RON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Oh, oh. Order, please! Order, please! To the point of order raised by the han. President of the Council (.Mr. Marshall) 1 indeed a supplementary should not require any

preamble whatsoever and the han. member for Mount Scio (Nr. Barryl was proceeding to get into debate. MR. BARRY: question. The hon. member for Mount Scio. Mr. Speaker, it was a new I was setting the background, Mr. Speaker, for a new question, the background being that I assume that we must conclude from the Premier's refusal to answer the question that the . communication has been made to Mr. Mulroney and that that has been rejected by Mr. Mulroney, the Premier' ' s request has been rejected. And, therefore, I would ask whether the Premier is at any point before the next federal election going to take the same approach with 1 1 1

March 13, 1984 Tape No. 42 NM - l MR. BARRY: Mr. Mulro0ney as he took with Mr. Clark and put him on the spot publicly by requesting publicly that Mr. Mulrooney give a written comnitment as to his position on the offshore? MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : PREMIER PECKFORD: The han. the Premier. Mr. Speaker, I find it extremely ironic that the han. member, 3 member who left one party where it was consistently stated that the offshore would be treated tt-e saroe as onshore and goes to a party which does not believe in treating the offshore the same as onshore, that he would ask such a question in this hon. House, Mr.

Speaker. The. Conservative Party of Canada has been known for its priaciples, has been known for its consistency,and the Liberal Party of Canada has not been known for its consistency or its principles - it changes from day to day-and I can only lament the fact that the bon. member would see fit to leave a party which supports offshore being treated the same as onshore and go with a party that does not want to give Newfoundland anything. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER (Russell) Mountains. MR. WARREN: Hear, hear! Order, please! Order, please! The hon. member for Torngat Mr. Speaker, I have a question to the han.

Minister of Justice. - Mr. Speaker, in recent developments,in the past twenty-four hours or so,I under­ stand that Atlantic Lotto has been issuing letters or threats to small business outlets in and around the St. John's area who are sellinq Atlantic Lotto tickets,and 11 2

March 13, 1984 Tape No. 42 MR. WARREN: has told them that if they sell any other lotto tickets,such as the Canada Games tickets,that they will have their licence taken away from them. Has the minister been approached on this matter, and what is the minister goi~g to do about it? 11 3 NM - 2

March 13, 19 84 t1R. SPEAKER (Russell) MR. OTTE'-JHEIMER: Tare No. 43 MJ - 1 The hon. th~ Minister of Justice. Mr. Speaker, I understand from the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins),because there are inter~ro•cincial agreements governing these lottos - like Lotto 649, Atlantic Lotto and whatever thev ar~ -that there is going to be a meeting of the ministers responsible for these interprovincial lottos within the next couple of weeks 6 I should point out that they come under an intergoveriLrnentr..l agreement among provinces and they are not related to lottery licencing within a province.

They are part of an intergovernmental agreement. With respect to the hon. gentleman's allegation that there have been threats, no,I am not aware that any confectionery store owners or other ~ntlets have been threatened by Atlantic Lotto 1 or whichever outfit it is that the hon. gentleman is suggesting is threatening people. If the hon. gentleman has a copy of any such letter,obviously I would be glad to see it but I have not heard any complaints with respect to that. MR. WARREN: MR. SPEAKER (Russell) Mountains. MR. V'JARREN: Mr. Speaker. The bon. the member for Torngat Mr.

Speaker, if the minister saw Here and Now yesterday evening or listened to the CBC report this morning, a fellow by the name of Noel Parsley was interviewed and he told the public that he has been advised by A.tlantic Lotto that if he sells other lotto tickets, in particu1ar as pertains to the Calgary games, that he would lose his Atlantic Lotto licence. Could the minister assure all those small outlets throughout the Province that are selling the various tickets that they will not lose their Atlantic ~otto licence because they are going to partake in selling other lotto tickets? 11 4

....._ March 13 , 1934 MR. SPE~~ER (Russell ) : t-1R . OTTENF.Er.~lER : Tape No . 43 HJ - 2 The hon . the Mini ster o f Justice . Mr . Speaker, I can certainl y assure the House that I ivill look into the matter and report thereo n . I do no t thL~k,certainly at th~s time,! can give the assuranc~ the hon . gentlen an is asking for , any more than, I suppos e - and I aM not necessarily justif ying >vhat the hon. gentleman is alle(]ing is go j_ncr on,I reall y do not know,I will have to check on it - than :.f Garage X has an agreement 11 5

Harch 13, 1984 Tape 44 EC - 1 !.ffi . OTTENHEIMER : to sell, like us say, only Fords, to the exclusion of certain other vehicles, you know, it depends on what kind of an agreement people have entered into. But I certainly will give the hon. gentleman assurance that I will have the matter looked into and see what precisely is the nature of the complaint and of the alleged threat. MR. SPEAKE R (Russell): The time for Question Period has expired. PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL C0!~ 1ITTEES DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to table the annual report, 1983, of the Liquor Corporation. 0 0 0 MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker. HR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, before Your Honour calls Orders of the Day, I have concurrence from the Government House Leader (1'1r. Marshall) to rise in my place today to pay tri~ute to a former member of this House and a former member of the House of Commons, a distinguished Newfoundlander in the person of the late Thomas G. W. Ashbourne,who recently passed away. Mr. Ashbourne had a long cco.reer in both provincial and national politics.

He first entered politics in 1924 and represented the district of Twillingate until 1928. In 1947, he again was elected to represent Twillingate as a delegate to the National Convention which had been set up to decide Newfoundland's future constitu- tional status. He subsequently was a member of the first delegation appointed from the Convention to travel to 116

March 13, 1984 Tape 44 EC - 2 MR. NEARY: Ottawa and interview Canadian officials as to what the position of the Canadian Government was if the Newfoundland people decided to join Confederation. After Newfour..dlanders and Labradoriar..:; finally chose to become a part of Canada in 19 4 9, Mr. Ashbourne was elected as a Liberal member of Parliament for the district of Grand Falls - White Bay - Labrador and held this seat three terms until 1958. As an MP ,Mr.

Ashbourne ·'Otrongly pushed in Parliament for the cause of fishermen and was instrumental in securing unemployment insurance benefits for fishermen while he was Chairman of the House of Commons Fishery Committee. Mr. Ashbourne was also a veteran of the First World War, having served in the British Army with the Royal Garrison Artillery, and was a prominent community leader and businessman. In T~'lillingate, he was a Justice of the Peace for over fifty years.

Mr. .Ashbourne helped to establish the first hospital, the Notre Dame Memorial Hospital, and was a commissioner of Newfoundland Hydro after his retirement from politics in 1958. Mr. Speaker, I also would like, with the concurrence of my friends there opposite, to pay tribute to another distinguished Newfoundlander who passed away since the House last met, a former member of this House in the person of Mr. Jack Forsey. The late Mr. Forsey was a prominent insurance salesman, as many members know, and represented Humber East in this House from 1956 to 1962. 11 7

March 13, 1984 Tape 45 PK - l MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, on behalf of all hon. members of this House of Assembly I would like for Your Honour to extend to the surviving families of both Mr. Ashbourne and Mr. Forsey our sincere condolences o'n their sad passing. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) MR. MAR;:,HALL: The hon. President of the Council. Mr. Speaker, we on this side would certainly associate ourselves with the expressions of sympathy expressed by the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary). Mr. Ashbourne had a very distinguished career as was outlined by the Leader of the Opposition.

He represents. incidentially. what amounts to now a decreasing number , I guess,of members of the House of Asse~bly prior to Commission of Government. There are very few of those around; two of them who ~ately come to mind, of course, are the hon. P.J. Lewis and the hon. W.J. Browne,both of whom are in very good health. And I know members of the House see them from time to time, because they reside here in St. John's. Mr. Ashbourne,in his last years I understand,resided with his family in Toronto.

As I say,he had a very distinguished public career in the Province of Newfoundland and we certainly join with the Opposition in extending a unanimous expression of sympathy to his family. At the same time,too, Mr . Speaker, with respect to Mr. Forsey who represented us provincially in more contemporary times,and I think a lot of people in the House knew Mr. Forsey and knew him personally, he represented, as the Leader of the Opposition said, the Corner Brook area in the House of Assembly. After 1962~ he maintained an interest in public life and public affairs,because from time to time we used to see Mr.

Forsey expressing opinions and proffering his opinions in the papers, and they were all very well reasoned and very well taken opinions. So Newfoundland really 11 B

March 13, 1984 Tape 45 PK - 2 MR. MARSHALL: has lost two very distinguished citizens since the last session of the House and we join in an expression of sympathy to the families. MR. SPEAKER (Russell): MR. OTTENHEIMER: The hon. Minister of Justice. Mr. Speaker, I am sure all han. members will join with me in an expression of sympathy for anothe­ distinguished Newfoundlander who recently passed away, This is a gentleman whose life also was a life of service, not in elected service but in appointed public service,and I am referring to the late Chief of Police Browne.

Early in his life the late Chief of Police served in the Royal Navy and was decorated for valor upon returning to Newfoundland. He j,oined the Constabulary and worked his way up through the ranks as a constable, an NCO, a Commissioned Officer, up to Deputy Chief and,of course,finally to Chief of Police. It was during the late Chief Browne's tenure that the new Royal Newfoundland Constabulary Headquarters were designed and planned and brought to fruition.

And also, of course, during his tenure and due largely to his involvement and interest and tenacity the designation 'Royal' was given to the Newfoundland Constabulary which,if my memory is correct, is one of seven police forces in the world ·co have that designation. So certainly the late Chief also played a prominent role in the life of the Province through a life of service,as I say,not eleced but appointed public service. He is survived by his widow and a number of children, and, of course,he has a son who is now serving in the Royal Newfoundland Constabularly.

I know all han. members join with me in expressing an expression of condolence to the late Chief's surviving family. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. Leader of the Opposition. 119

March 13, 1984 ~R. SPEAKER (Russell ): MR . NEA~: Tape No . 46 so - 1 The hon . Leader of the Opposition. Mr. Speaker, we on this side of the House would like to join with members chere opposite in paying tribute to another prominent and distinguished Newfoundlander , a former Royal Newfoundland Constabulary Chief 1 che late John Bro\me to~ho recently passed a\o~ay. As the minister indicated to the House 1 the late Chief Browne had a long and emi nent career in our local police force and became it Deputy Chief in 1972, anc .as the hon . gentleman indicated 1 \o/aS Chief in 1976. It was during his tenure, Mr .

Speaker, as the hon . gentleman pointed out, as Chief of the Constabulary that it received the designation of 'Royal' 1 \<~hich I am sure made the late Johr:. Browne prcud and happy. And moving in 1 of course 1 to their present spacious and modern headquarters to~as a major accomplishment under the leader ship of the late John Browne . Mr . Speaker, to his surviving family , we also wou~d like te join with hon . gentlemen there opposite in extending our deepest sympathy from all members on this side of the Bouse . 120

March 13, 1984 MR. MARSHALL: MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : MR. BARRY: Tape No. 46 SD - 2 ORDERS OF THE DAY Order 1 . Address in Reply. The hon. member for Mount Scio. Mr. Speaker, one of the most crucial, probably,I would say,the most crucial problem facing the Province today is not the offshore situation, it is not the fact that by the poor planning and poor strategy of the government that the offshore case has been lost, that can be remedied if the government is prepared to take a sensible approach, accept the generous offer of the federal Minister of Energy (_Mr.

Chretien) to sit down immediately without pre­ conditions, without anything other than a willingness to try and get an agreement. Mr. Speaker, there you have a problem that is in the government's own hands. The solution of the offshore problem is in the government's own hands. It can sit down and negotiate. MR. WARREN: Hear, hear. MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, we have a more serious problem, and I wonder whether the solution is,at the present time,in the government's hands. It should be,but because of a lack of a proper fisheries policy, Mr.

Speaker, we on this side of the House are very concerned that the crisis in the fishing industry is,to a large extent, being ignored by members opposite, by the government, by the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan)_. To a large extent there is an attempt, Mr.

Speaker, to paper over th.e real tragedy which is occuring in our Province today, a tragedy of many young Newfoundlanders· who are not afraid to take a risk, who are not afraid to lay their futures on the line, who are not afraid to make an investment in the fishing industry listening to th.e government saying that there was a bright future for the fishing industry, listening to the government say that there would be policies in place to ensure that people could 121

March 13, 1984 Tape No. 46 SD -3 MR. BARRY: live in rural Ne~·;foundland and made a good living the fishing industry. And what is the result today? What is the situation that we find these aggressive ~isk takers in in our :ishing industry, th<:!'Se vounq men with stars in their eye~ wanting to make a contribution to our Province? We see, Hr. Speaker, most of those facing bankruptcy today and facing bankruptcy, to a large 122

March 13, 1984 Tape No. 47 NM - 1 MR. BARRY: extent,because of the utter incompetence of the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan), the utter incompetence! And, Mr. -Speaker, the Premier mentioned something during the course of the Throne Speech with which I agree totally,and that is that he has young members in the backbenches of his government who are hot on the heels of his Cabinet ministers. And the time is long past, Mr. Speaker, for one minister to be ejected. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. BARRY: Come on! Come on! The time is long past, Mr. Speaker, for a Cabinet shuffle.

It will be only switching deck chairs on the Titanic, but the time is long past to see that Minister of Fisheries replaced and either the member who spoke and moved the n~dress-in-Repl~ or the seconder, either one of those two fine qentlemen would do 100 per cent better than the Minister of Fisheries. They would not be going up to Ottawa, Mr. Speaker, and coming back crying. MR. MORGAN: I am going to get you yet. MR. BARRY: You are goinq to get me. We h;;:_ve threats, Mr'. Speaker. We have threats. MR. SPEAKER (Aylward): Order, please! MR.

BARRY: They would not be qoing to Ottawa and doing a deal with a federal minister, his federal counterpart,and then the next day having to come back crying that the aqreement was not accepted by the Premier or his government. 123

March 13, 1984 Tape No. 4 7 NM - 2 MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, either of those gentlemen, the mover or the seconder of the Address-in-Reply, Mr. Speaker, would do 100 per cent better than the minister. Who would have the utter arrogance, or is it that he just does not know, to come back after being rejected not once - like Christ and St. Peter was it? - rejected not once, not twice but three times by his government. MR. MORGAN: I did not go horne crying to get in the Cabinet like you did. MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, the member opposite, the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan), says that he did not come horne crying.

No, he cried, Mr. Speaker, in front of the Federal Minister of Fisheries (Mr. De Bane)! He cried in front of the Federal Fisheries Minister! He broke down, Mr. Speaker, he said, "I cannot go horne. They will not let me keep my Cabinet seat if you do not let me change that agreement." MR. MORGAN: AN HON. MEMBER: SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. BARRY: I am losing my voice. Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. BARRY: Lower your decibels, boy! Keep your cool. Oh, oh! Whatever about losing my cool, I had better reduce my dec .ibel level, Oh, oh! I have a bit of a cold and I am losing my voice, so I cannot speak loud. MR.

SPEAKER (Aylward) : Order, please! MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, we have a sad situation in the fishing industry and what is the approach of government? The approach of the Provincial Minister of Fisheries has been, once he has come back to the bargaining table after walking away from the restructuring deal because he was not getting his own way with the Premier, the approach 124

March 13, 1984 Tape No . 47 ~'1 - 3 M.~ . BA.~RY : has been now to hold up restructuring as the solution to the ills of the fishing industry . Now, Mr . Speaker, I want to ask the Mi~ister of Fisheries (Mr . Morgan) \vhether he supports the new approach to collective bargaining taken by gover:unent in thi s Province today? I am glad to see the Minister of Labour and ~anpower (Mr . Dinn ) listening because I want to hea r from the Minister of Labour whether this is a recommendation of his department, this new approach to collec tive ba rgaining as witnes se s by the Premier 's letter 125

March 13,1984 Tape No. 48 ah-1 MR. BARRY: to the paper workers in Grand Falls where,before there was any mention of money, before there were any demands at all made by those union members in Grand Falls,we have the Premier warning, sending a letter to them and threatening them, warning them not to make unreasonable demands. Now, Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the Minister of Fisheries (Mr.Morgan) whether that same letter is going to go out to the fishermen of this Province? Has the same letter been written yet, Mr. Speaker, to Mr. Cashin to warn him that he had better not make any unreasonable demands?

Has the Minister of Fisheries, Mr. Speaker- the people in this Province want to know, the fishermen want to know - has the Minister of Fisheries done anything to encourage the restructured company to get to the bargaining table with our fishermen? They have.added- what is it? - five cents over the last two years to the price of fish. The real incomes of our fishermen, Mr.Speaker, have gone down, have gone down not just in the last couple of years 1 but since 1978, I believe it is, or 1979. The real incomes, the earning power of our fishermen has gone down.

I want to know from the Minister of Fisheries when he get up to speak - I am glad that he is going to be following me. I am quivering in my boots , Mr. Speaker, I am shaken by the threats of the fisheries minister to get me - what I want to know is , is he also out to get the fishermen of this Province? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Yes, yes. MR.BARRY: Is he out to get the fishermen of this Province in the same way the Premier was out to get the paper workers, to try and force them into not making any unreasonable demands when they had not made any demands,with respect to money, Mr.Speaker? 126

March 13,1984 Tape No. 48 ah-2 MR.BARRY: Now mayae the Minister of Labour (Mr. Dinn) would prefer to respond,or the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) , but somebody on the government side, Mr. Speaker,must answer the question~ will the fishermen of our Province be threatened by the full force of government authority not to seek increases in their income level? Is the government saying that the income levels of fishermen is to be frozen, that these levels are to be frozen for one year, two years, or how long? Are members e~posite saying that our fishermen are now receiving sufficient income?

Is the Minister of Fisheries saying that freezing the price of fish is going to help these fishermen save their boats,which they are now losing or about to lose,because they cannot meet the payments, Mr. Speaker? And not only their boats, Mr. Speaker, they have made commitments. They have borrowed money which they have to pay back. Mr. Speaker, if they lose their boats;is the bank going to be after them to take their homes? Is this, Mr. Speaker, the position that the Government of Newfoundland and the Minister of Fisheries support? Now , Mr. Speaker, there has been a delay in collective bargaining.

The fishermen have not had the opportunity to find out just what this new restructured company is willing to pay or is able to pay. SOME HON.MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, we have the situation where we do not know at this stage what the restructured company is in a position to pay our fishermen. Now I would ask the government to immediately see that the new company is in a position to commence negotiations. To a large extent, again, it is in the government's hands. 127

March 13,1984 Tape No. 48 ah-3 MR.BARRY: There has to be a board of directors appointed , there has to be a chief executive officer appointed ~ any delay rests with government. Government has t~e opportunity 128

March 13, 1984 Tape No. 49 MJ - 1 MR. BARRY: to see these directors appointed and should be acting with all speed and haste to ensure that that is done so that our fishermen can get to the bargaining table. And, Hr. Speaker, I would like the "inister of Fisheries (Hr.

Morgan) to also indicate whether, when our fishermen get to the bargaining table, if they should find that the restructured company is not in a position to oay them a sufficient amount to help them not just pay their expenses, not just save their fishing vessels but to earn a decent income, has the Minister of Fisheries any policies for meeting any shortfall that might exist,if that in fact might be,or is the Minister of Fisheries merely going to point to Otta~·.ra and say, 'Oh, we cannot do anything, We have got to ask the federal government to do it'? Mr.

Speaker, the Fishermen's Union have an information campaign going around the Province and, Mr. Speaker, there is some very good information that is being supplied. We have, Mr. Speaker, the Fishermen's Union stating that basically what has been happening is,with the approach of the Kirby Commission, while everybody agrees that the fishing industry must be economically viable and everybody agrees that at some point in time we must be able to see that profit is made in that industry MR. TOBIN: What about the Bank of Nova Scotia? MR. BARRY: Yes, what about the Bank of Nova Scotia? Yes, ~J.

Speaker, I will tell about the Bank of Nova Scotia, which for several years, 1·1r. speaker, was the only body in this Province or in this country prepared to meet the needs of fishermen to carry insolvent companies, Mr. Speaker, That is typical of the member for Burin - Placentia West (Mr. Tobin), that he would make an implication that I, "in my personal capacity, who have, Mr. Speaker, the 129

March 13, 1984 Tape No. 49 HJ - 2 HR. BJI.RRY: honour of representing an institution that has more rural branches around this Province, that has more at stake around this Province than any other financial institution. Mr. Speaker, I would ask the member to ask some members of his ovm caucus \vhether they feel that acting for a bank is not somehow i~proper or reprehensible. ~~. Speaker, the member opposite should start standing on his feet and start talking a little policy from time to tirne,and let us not have these personal digs. I have yet to hear the member from Burin - Placentia Nest (Hr.

Tobin) get up and say anything in the way of a proper fisheries policy for this House and, Hr. Speaker, I am waiting for the member, and we will enjoy a little give and take during this Session,but the member should get on his feet and let his constituents knovT where he stands. Does he support the Premier dictating to the fishermen that they should not ask for any increase? Is that the position? Tell the residents, Hr. Speaker, of Burin - Placentia r.rest whether that is what he supports. Be a man and answer that question. Mr.

Speaker, we had a situation last year where things were floatincr alonq in the fishing industry·, the industry \oJas belly up, but nobody was doin<; anything. Finally, ~~r. Speaker, the bank said the time has bloody well come, after several years the time has come for the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) to accept his responsibility, for the federa 1 "; -.,:i_ster of Fisheries (Mr. DeBane) to ar.cP.T"'t hi_o; ~P.~nnnsibilitv.

Othen11ise it would still be floating along, and our inshore fishermen would still be in a position of not knmlling if they were going to have plants to buv their fish,and a Minister of Fisheries not doing one single, solitary thingl. I~. Speaker, the Newfoundland Fishermen, F'ood and Allied li'Jorkers Union has stated that everywhere they turn this year they see government not just 130

March 13 , 1984 Tape No . 49 MJ - 3 MR . B~?-RY : havinq a colic? of. over a period of time making the fishing industry viable; no, they are taking the position L~at whether it be a wharfage fee, whether it be the price of fish, wherever thev look all of a sudden the fisherm en h~s got to make t~e fishin~ industry viable . The position taken by che provincial ~!inister of Fisheries (l-1.r . ~organ \ is, 'Oh, the indust:::-.t is viable now because \-te ha' .'e a restructured company, we have a company that can ooerate .' Nben was the last time you heard, Hr . Speaker, vou heard the Minister of Fisheries make any recommendation that ;.1ould deal with fishermen's incomes? 131

March 13, 1984 Tape 50 EC - 1 MR. BARRY: When was the last ti me, Mr. Speaker, you saw the provincial Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) do anything to assist fishermen in getting a decent income? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Fisheries has yet to do anything for the fishermen on fishermen's incomes. He has yet to do an ything and, Mr. Speaker, the time has com~ - ~ffi. MORGA N: Has the hon. member ever taken our side on fisheries? Enough is enough! MR. BARRY: Go ahead and discuss what has gone en in caucus if you wish! Go ahead! SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER (Aylward): MR.

BARRY: Oh, oh! Order, please! Order, please! Mr. Speaker, the hon. member has not done a thing to deal with fishermen's incomes. He has now taken the position: •Oh, we have a restructured company now. We have a company which has received certain financing.' We already, I t~ink, have had indications from Mr. Kirby and Mr. Nicholson that there are problems in the amount of financing available. We have already had indications that they may not be able to pay a decent income to our fisher­ men. Now, Mr. Speaker, what is the position?

Does the provincial Minister of Fisheries believe that you can have a viable fishinq industry when all the fishermen are bank- rupt but the companies are being financed? MR. TULK: How could that happen? MR. BARRY: Yes. How can there be a viable fishing industry if the people right at the front end, the catchers, the people who go out and catch the fish, if they are bankrupt, if they are not earning a decent income? How can it be? 132

March 13, 1984 Tape 50 EC - 2 MR. BARRY: ~1r. Speaker, we do not yet have a policy put forth by our Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) that deals with that point. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. BARRY: There will be much more to say, ~·r. Speaker, when my learned friend's resolution comes on the Order Paper on tomorrow, Wednesday. We will have much more time to debate this crucial, important issue, an issue that is threateninsr the livelihoods of our thousands of fishermen around the Province. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : Order, please! MR. BARRY: We recently, Mr.

Speaker, had the opportunity of seeing a Province-wide address by the Premier on the economic state of the Province. Now, I know all of us, members opposite, members on this side, the general public, were hoping for and praying for and expecting some sort of positive statement, Mr. Speaker, and one that the Premier has in his own hands to give when he gets down to the bargaining table seriously with the Province of Quebec. We are now into the sensitive stage of negotiations.

Does that mean that the Premier is still setting forth pre­ conditions and the pre-conditions are sensitive,or is he actually involved in negotiations? We do not know. Hopefully we will get responses to these questions, Mr. Speaker. And I guess it should be noted that the Premier, who prides himself on being one to answer a question, has in the very first session Question Period, day one of the House of Assembly,we have question number one unanswered. Now, we will keep a tally-and the Premier will have other opportunities to answer that question - we will keep a tally and see just how many questions will 133

March 13, 1984 Tape 50 EC - 3 MR . BAR..~Y: remain unans1.;ered in this session of the Eouse of Assembly . Well, Mr. Speaker, one GUestion which I believe the Premier could answer for th~ people of this Province is, lvhen can 1-1e expect a deal on the Opper Churchill, a deal \vith Quebec? And, Mr. Speaker, \vhen can we expect the income !lo\oling into the Province as a result of such a negotiated settlement, when can \ve see the employment opportunities that would result from other hydro developments in Labrador? It is 1olith members on the other side, it is with the Cabinet, it is with the Premier t0 get a deal, Mr. Speaker. It is in their hand s. And such a deal could see, 134

March 13, 1984 Tape 51 PK - 1 MR. BARRY: instead of the Premier going on coast-to-coast television to put on the doom and gloom hat, instead of telling all our public employees that they are going to have to bear the burden, Mr. Speaker - I guess the only reason we can assume that this was done is because the Budget is goi ng to be such a pure and utter disaster this yecr that the Premier was trying to save the overworked Minister of Finance (Dr.

Collins), we all know that he is a hard worker, and we all know that he needs a little bit of assistance to get him through these hard times, the Premier was trying to soften the blow. The Premier was trying to soften the blow because it is going to be suer. an utter disaster. The Premier seems to relish, he seems to enjoy bad news. Last year's deficit I think was $28 million - $28 million. it started with and, Mr. Speaker, it was more than doubled by the end of the year - the deficit which at $28 million is more than go vernment's likes to see.

I can recall government would always try and keep the Budget around a $10 million to $15 million surplus on current account, Mr. Speaker, because otherwise you are just borrowing to pay your bills and you keep going deeper and deeper in the hole. So we have not just a movement from a $15 million surplus to a $28 million deficit, Mr. Speaker, which was projected at the beginning of the year, , no,we have that deficit more than doubling than.

Now the Premier has indicated that we can expect,even with these Draconian measures that are being brought in for the public service 1 our Budget to go from $100 million deficit to $75 million. Now that is at the beginning of the year. Presumably these are 135

March 13, 1984 Tape 51 PK - 2 MR. BARRY: the figures that the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) is going to be dealing with later on this month when he brings down the Budget. But the people in this Province would like to know just how accurate are those projections. Are they going to be as close as they were last year? Are we going to be looking at a deficit whic :1 is going to more than double again? Are we going to be looking at, in other words 1 a deficit on current account of $150 million by the end of the fiscal year 1984-1985? Mr.

Speaker, it is a sad day in this Province when we have to look at the figures that are put out in the Budget Speech and at the end of the year we have to say they bore no more ~elation to reality than chalk does to cheese- no more, Mr. Speaker, relationship to the actual reality of what happened than chalk to cheese. Now, Mr. Speaker, I see that I am being given a notice that I am running out of time here. Mr. Speaker, before I forget I would like to , Mr.

Speaker, because of the utter lack of confidence which I know that the people of this Province,and the members of this House,have in their hearts and souls in this government, Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the member for Torngat (Mr.

Warren) that all the words after 'that' be deleted, in the motion before the House,and the following words substituted therefore: 'This House deplores the failure of the government to prepare and prese~t measures adequate to deal with the problems of unemployment, lack of business opportunities, and inadequate public services confronting Newfoundland and Labrador today and demands that the government immediately take all measures possible to alleviate these problems.' SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! 136

March 13, 1984 Tape No. 52 SD - 1 HR. BARRY: Hr. Speaker, we knew we had to get this in today because we know hon. members opposite are very eager to see the House closed. SOME HON. HEHBERS: HR. BARRY: HR. SPEAKER (Aylward) MR. MARSHALL: HR. SPEAKER: President of the Council. SOME HON. HEMBERS: MR. MARSHALL: Oh, oh! And we know, Mr. Speaker - Order, please! On a point of order, r.fr. Speaker. A point of order, the hon. Oh, oh. Hr. Speaker, if I may have a copy of the motion~ Mr. Speaker, as I heard it ,this is an amendment to the Address in Reply. And I quote, Mr.

Speaker, page 153, Amendments, Paragraph 425, 'The object of an amendment may either be to modify a question in such a way .as to increase acceptability or to present to the House a different proposition as an alternative', 426 is most germaine, Mr.

Speaker, It says:· ''It is an imperative rule that every amendment must be relevant to the question on which the amendment is proposed.' Now the hon. gentleman has proposed an amendment which reads: 'That all words after 1that' be deleted and the following substituted.'This House deplores the failure of the government to prepare and present measures adequate to deal with the problems of unemployment, lack of business opportunity , and an inadequate public service confronting Newfoundland and Labrador today and demands that the government immediately take all measures possible to alleviate these problems.' Hr.

Speaker, I might suggest to the hon. member, in view of the fact that amendments have to be relevant , it would be improved perhaps by putting a 'whereas' before the resolution 1which could read ,and I propose if he would accept it,

WHEREAS" I' lost the 1979 leadership - SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! 137

March 13, 1984 MR. MARSHALL: leadership but my own.' Tape No. 52 SD - 2 and could not accept any So, Mr. Speaker, if the han. gentleman would consent to that amendment we would certainly say that this resolution is very relevant and gerrnaine. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER (Aylwardl: MR. BARRY: MR. SPEAKER: member for Mount Scio. MR. BARRY: of order, Mr. Speaker - Hear, hear. Order, please! To the point of order, Mr. Speaker. To the point of order, the han. If I could speak to that point MR. SIMMS : He is trying to take over from his House Leader now. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh..! MR. BARRY: - that motion, Mr.

Speaker, is similar to many that have gone through this H'ouse before, I refer back as far as 1978 at least when similar motions we·re accepted as · being proper motions of non-confidence, r-tr, Speaker. I submit that the member will have his opportunity to amend any resolutions · that are put before this House by members here,and I might say that he might put in that, 'Whereas my willingness to subject the people of Newfoundland to the hardship that my pclicy on offshore oil and gas, on hydro­ electricity,' and so forth 1 that that comes, Mr.

Speaker 1 from the cynicism I developed when I was · tossed out of the Cabinet by Frank Moores.' SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! To the point of order raised by the hon. the President of the Council (Mr. Marshall}_ 1 I have to rule that there is no point of order. And I rule that the motion move.d by the han. member for Mount Scio (Mr. BarryL is in order. s·oME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear. MR. BARRY: Hear, hear! What a Speaker! 138

March 13, 1984 MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : MR . BAR..~Y : Tape No. 52 SD - 3 The hen. member for t-1ount Scio . ~tr . Speaker, one of the things that was sadly lacking in the Premier ' s address , and he had a marvelous opportunity - he had the Province ;..rired for sound, televisions flashing from here to Cape Chidley, Mr. Speaker - he had a marvelous opportunity to bring for~~ some~~ng positive . He had a ~arvelous opportunity, Mr . Spe~~er, to motivate our people, to inspire our people, to get our people working, Mr . Speaker , to get business opportunities going in this Province, to s ee our people employed.

And instead , Mr . Speake .r, we have a black poll and miasma, Mr. Sp~aker, of gloom and doom laid on the Province, laid that thick, 139

March 13, 1984 Tape No . 53 NM - 1 MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, from here to Cape Chidley. It is like the Premier got one of these paint rollers and went out and he spread gloom and doom, Mr. Speaker, from here to the tip of Labrador. MR. BAIRD: you need insurance. MR. BARRY: For what you are spending now Mr. Speaker, what the hon. member throws out of his mouth from time to time I am sure is what I will spread. The member can throw it out and I will spread it. MR. BAIRD: You sure can, all over your face. MR. BARRY: squeeze his head. Whenever we want it we will Hr. Speaker, the Premier was elected to govern.

The Premier is there t9 qovern. The Premier is there not to discouraqe, not to create despair,- not to cause our people to go around with bent shoulders, with head down low, feelinq that the fault of their situation is somebody outside the borders of Newfoundland, that somehow the fault lies with those dirty devils in Ottawa, you know, who are out to qet Newfoundland - they are out to get Newfoundland, Mr. Speaker! Mr.

Speaker, it is time that we all in this Province, every member in this House, every member of the Premier's Cabinet, the Premier, indeed every member of the qeneral public of Newfoundland, it is time that we started to accept responsibility for our own destiny. It is time we started, Mr. Speaker, to have some self confidence. It is time, Mr. Speaker, that we stopped being afraid to make a deal because we are afraid it is goinq to be like a deal that might have been made in the past where there were mistakes, Mr. Speaker. It is 140

March 13, 1984 Tape No. 53 i\!M - 2 MR. BARRY: time we started to have some courage, some confidence in our own ability to excel, Mr. Speaker. It is time we starteu to put our fellow citizens in Canada on notice that Newfoundland has arrived, that the people of Newfoundland are not to the staqe where they overreact to a ~ewfie joke because they are afraid that there might be some truth in it. Mr. Speaker, the people of our Province are proud, self-confident,and the only, Mr. Speaker, reason for despair that 'they have facing them is the government which is in this House right now. Their despair, Mr.

Speaker, does not have to come from their ability. They are an able people, Mr. Speaker. When Newfoundlanders move outside this Province for employment, as,I will mention a little later on, thP.y have to in ever increasing numbers, when Newfoundlanders move outside, Mr. Speaker, they compete with the best of them, and they do well, Mr. Speaker, they excel. And we have to get back in this Province to encouraging excellence. We have to qet back, Mr.

Speaker, rather than spreading doom and gloom, we have to start spreading some hope. we have to start showing our people that we can, throucrh our own industrious activity, through our own endeavours,. through taking responsibility ourselves for our destiny rather than blaming it on big bogeymen away, Mr. Speaker, take responsibility ourselves and we can make this Province a shining jewel in the North Atlantic. Now, Mr.

Speaker, I have had the opportunity since I have crossed the floor to speak with a lot of members in my district, Mount Scio, a lot of people living in Mount Scio,and I have also had an opportunity to speak with a lot of people right across this Province, including- MR. BAIRD: Leo the lion hearted . 141

March 13, 1984 Tape No. 53 NM - 3 MR. BARRY: -as the member knows 1 a very enthusiastic series of audiences in his o~n riding. MR. BAIRD: I heard about it. MR. BARRY: Mr . Speaker, if the member heard,then the member trembles. And what I am hearing, Mr. Speaker, is that the people of this Province are sick and tired of excuses, they are 142

March 13, 1984 Tape 54 EC - 1 MR. BARRY: sick and tired of their govern- ment giving excuses rather than getting on with the job of improving conditions for them. The people in Corner Brook expect, Mr. Speaker, their government to do more than say, 'Oh, to hell with Bowaters! If they do not want to stay here we do no_ want them here! Get out! ' before they have got anybndy to replace them. HR. BAIRD; Lies! Lies! Not true! MR. BARRY: I watched the Premier on television. I watched the interview, Mr. Speaker. I listened carefully. I saw it, I heard it. MR. YOUNG: You do not know what you heard. MR. BARRY: Now, Mr.

Speaker, everybody in this Province ho~es that more will be done for the people of Corner Brook than was done for the people of Labrador West. vmat we saw done for the people of Labrador West, Mr. Speaker, was to provide a couple of thousand dollars to them so·that they could move. Move where? Move where, to what jobs, Mr. Speaker? Where is the employment for these people? .MR, DINN; What are your buddies in Ottawa doing for them? MR. BARRY: What is the minister responsible for employment, the Minister of Labour and Manpower (Mr. Dinn) 1 done to see that these people in Labrador West get jobs?

I hope that there is more done, Mr. Speaker, for the people of Corner Brook than has been done for the people of Labrador West. lffi. H0DDER: You realize tl:ey have to move beJore they get the money. MR. BARRY: That is right. That is right, Mr. Speaker. They can only get assistance if th~y move. They can only get money if they move. !'!R. DINN: Of course, that is not true. • SOME H.ON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! 143

March 13, 1984 Tape 54 EC - 2 MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, the point is that there was nothing done, there was not a single thing done tc provide alternate employment for these people, not a thing! And it is a scandal! MR. DINN: It is what I thought it \•las. MR. BARRY: I can understand the minister trying to shout me down,because if I were him I would be ashamed too! I would be ashamed! MR. DINN: I would resign and' run in Mount Scio if I were the m<mber. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. BARRY: Hear, hear! Come on! I would be ashamed too, Mr.

Speaker, if I were the minister responsible for Manpower, if I had done no more than that minister has done for the people of Labrador West. He has done nothing, Mr. Speaker. He has done nothing. He supplies sta.tistics, Mr. Speaker, statistics·on the increasing rate of employment. MR. MORGAN: On that sid:! you are all incompetent. MR. BARRY: Well, yes, you are. There is no question about that, Mr. Speaker. The Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan), if we could have a minute for confession here, for self-confession, could we say it again?

The minister said we are all incompetent on that side, the Minister of Fisheries. If that is his assessment, I will take it, Mr. Speake~. HR. MORGAN: Be a man! Resign! I will resign and beat you. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, if that were to happen then the member would not be able to run in Bonavista - Trinity -Conception against Mr. Rooney, as all the people know he is going to do. I guess the polls show that they 144

March 13, 1984 Tape 54 EC - 3 MR. BARRY : have some difficulty . So the Hinister of Fisheries (>1r . ~organ ) , Nr . Spe<>-~er, realizing that he has got himself into a black oit, that he has no policies to offer the fishermen of this Province, has decided he ha s got to bail out , Mr . Spea\e~ . ~·Jell, here is one fellow who decided he would ~ot bail out to a soft federal seat . The job has to be done here, ~ . Speaker, and we will see whether the ltinister of Fisheries has the guts to go ou t and fight , as he bails out , kno\o~ing he has no policies for the fishery , no policies for the fishery ! 145

March 13,1984 Tape No. 55 ah-1 MR.BARRY: I have yet to see a policy come from the Minister of Fisheries (Mr.Morgan). MR.MORGAN: He never would discuss things with the =ishermen! He practiced law instead. Oh, the insincere gentleman! SOME HON.MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR.BARRY: Mr. Speaker, one thing about practicing law is that yo~ always will be able to find employment if you ever decide to leave the House. And I hope the Minister of Fisheries is as lucky and that he will be able to find something to do when he is flung out in the next election. And maybe that is the reason, Mr.

Speaker, that he is being re-elected so often, because they know he will be like a naked babe in the snow, if he is ever thrown out of the House of Assembly, in terms of survival. It is sympathy, sympathy and pity. It is the kindness of the good people of Bonavista South, the sympathy. They know, Mr. Speaker, tha~ he would be incapable of looking after himself because he is sure, Mr. Speaker, incompetent and incapable of looking after the fishermen of this Province. MR.MORGAN: I have met certain clients of yours who have not got a good word for you. SOME HON.MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR.BARRY: Any client, Mr.

Speaker, whom I have acted for, I am happy to say, have gone away happy, have had a good job done for them, Mr. Speaker, which is more than I can say for the fishermen who are suffering under the yoke of that oaf. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! 146

March 13,1984 Tape No. 55 ah-2 MR.BARRY: The Minister of Fisheries, Mr. Speaker, is going to have to run federal because he has got himself into a hole which he will never dig himself out of. The fishermen of Newfoundland are wising up, they are wising up because they see that the money is not there to pay for the boats that they were encouraged to buy by the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan}. They relied on the Minister of Fisheries and they now find themselves in a position facing bankruptcy, facing insolvency, and the minister is not showing them where to turn.

He is going to run federal just to get out of the mess that he has created. And we will all be watching, Mr. Speaker, to see where he runs. MR.MORGAN: Grand Falls-White Bay, they would not have you up there. MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, actually that poll was very good. so I have heard. SOME HON.MEMBERS: MR.BARRY: That poll was excellent, Mr.Speaker, Oh, oh! I did not wait for it but some of my friends told me about it afterwards, so I have obviously, Mr. Speaker, given up a very safe and secure federal seat. But the job has to be done here in the Province. How could someone leave?

It would be like coming upon an automobile accident, seeing barely moving bodies strewn all over the highway, and walking by. Because that is what the members opposite are leaving in this Province, they are leaving the ravages of our population behind them,Mr. Speaker. They are leaving the unemployed in Labrador West, Mr. Speaker. They are leaving our insolvent and bankrupt fishermen. 147

March 13,1984 Tape No. 55 ah-3 MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, they are leaving our small businessmen, who are finding themselves insolvent, no retirement incomes, no pensions and nowhere to turn in terms of new business opportunities. Everywhere they turn, Mr. Speaker, they are wreaking havoc. And if I were to run federal, Mr. Speaker, it would be like walking pa .st that automobile accident with those twitching bodies on the side of the road. MR.NEARY: Mr. Speaker. MR.SPEAKER (Dr.McNicholas ): A point of order. The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR.NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, as much as I enjoy the remarks from the other side, my hon.colleague there can take care of himself I am sure, but, Mr. Speaker, if you allow this to continue then the decorum of the House will deteriorate rapidly. What we are hearing now is not witty remarks or interjections from the other side in rebuttal to what my hon. colleague is saying, but you are hearing shouting from numerous members, and ever. from the doorways, !1r. Speaker, and they must think they are in a beer tavern somewhere. This is just not allowed. It is not permitted in this House, Mr.

Speaker, and my hon. colleague should be allowed to make his speech in accordance with the rules of this House. Now we have seen too much of this, Mr. Speaker, too 148

March 13, 1984 Tape No. 56 MJ - 1 HR. NEARY: too much arrogance from the members there opposite, Mr. Speaker, and I ask Your Honour to enforce the rules of the House so that my hon. friend can continue with his magnificent speech that he is making. MR. SIMr·1S: Mr. Speaker, to that point of order. !viR. SPEAKER U~cNicholas) : To that point of order, the hon. the Minister of Culture, Recreation and Youth. HR. SH1HS: Mr. Speaker, of all people in this House who should be lecturing the members of this House about decorum, the last one in the world who should be doing it is the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary'.

Because if the ~ecorurn in the House has deteriorated,it is because of the actions of members on the other side and I submit to you, Mr. Speaker, that you are quite capable of dealing with what is happening. MR. SPEAKER: To that point of order, I would remind hon. members that the person speaking has the right to be heard in silence. There has been a fair amount of interruption and dissension on both sines. The hon. the member for Mount Scio. MR. BARRY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The point I wanted to make - and I will make a deal, I will not yell if members opposite will not yell - the point I wanted to make, Mr.

Speaker, is that the Premier had this great coast to coast hookup · and had this marvelous opportunity to inspire and motivate our people, to get this Province turned around again, to get business booming, get employment going and instead we saw doom and gloom laid on with a shovel, Mr. Speaker. Now,the one thing lacking in the Premier's statement was reference to how the government was going to generate new income. Mr. Speaker, not a single reference to how government was going to increase government 149

March 13, 1984 Tape No. 56 MJ - 2 MR. BARRY: revenue, it was all on the expenditure side. The Premier said, 'l,Je have got to cut, cut, cut, cut everything and start off by cutting the disposable income of our public service employees.' Now, Mr. Speaker, that is only one side of the coin, Everybody knows that the Premier and the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) have a difficult job anc they have to cut expenditures. I might go on to ask the question ~>Thy is it necessarv to cut expenditures?

It is necessary to cut expenditures not only because there is an economic recession world-wide or in Canada, other provinces have suffered from this same recession, other countries have gone through it, they are now in an upturn. r4r.

Speaker, we have the Premier himself in his statement, if I remember correctly, admitting that the improvement in the Newfoundland economy was going to go - he projected a 1.5 per cent increase, I think it was, the f1inister of Finance can correct me, a projected improvement of 1.5 per cent increase in the Gross Provincial Product for this coming year, 'And' the Premier said, 'the rest of Canada is going to be from 3 to 5 per cent'. Now that is a confession of failure.

That is the Premier himself., in his own words, saying it is not just the economic recession in other provinces, in Canada or in the Western World generally. He has admitted by that statement that it is the effects of the recession plus his government policies. That is what has created a greater recession in this Province than in other provinces, this is what has led to a longer recovery period for this Province.

We have the doom and gloom, the fiscal mismanagement, the lack of development policies of the Prerr.ier and l"tis Minister of Finance and his government, that is what has forced them, that is what has forced government to start cutting expenditures. : Now, Mr. Speaker, apart from the expenditure side there is,of course,the other side~ if you 150

March 13, 1984 TaJ?e No. 56 MJ - 3 rm. BARRY: do not have enough money in government, if you cut expenditures to the bone,then you have to start generatino 151

March 13, 1984 Tape 57 PK - 1 MR. BARRY: new revenue. You cannot go out and borrow and borrow and borrow and borrow, any homeowner knows that. It does not take any great knowledge of finance to know that you cannot continue to borrow yourself out of the hole. MR. MORGAN: You are an expert on fisheries, an expert on the offshore, an expert on finance. MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, the member just made a deal that I would not have to shout at him. Now I am going to start shouting at him again in a minute. MR. MORGAN: An expert on the offshore, an expert on Newfoundland. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) Order, please! MR.

BARRY: Thank you. Thank you. Mr. speaker, the point is that the government, the Premier and the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) should be proposing measures to see new business opportunities created in this Province, and from those new business opportunities we would see corporate profits which could be taxed, an additional corporate taxation. We would also see employment, we would see additional income for our people and, again, additional income taxes and more money for government coming in from these sources. But, Mr. Speaker, not a word, not a single word on h9w to generate new dollars.

Now, that is such an obvious and terrible gap in any Premier's address on the economy I do not understand why . the media has not risen up, and why the people have not risen up and said, 'What is going on here?' Now, I think by the time this session ends if there is any one thing we will do :it is we will bring out that message that there is no new income foreseen by this government, that there are no new policies for the generation of new business opportunities, of new jobs beingplanned by this government. Now, Mr. Speaker, it is not just a matter of 152

March 13, 1984 Tape 57 PK - 2 MR. BARRY: government spending to generate jobs, we can also see jobs generated, business opportunities generated if we saw an improved business climate. Mr.

Speaker, picture yourself as a businessman in Nova Scotia, or say he is in Toronto and he has an option between setting up in Nova Scotia and settinJ up in Newfoundland, 3Uppose he can operate equally well in either province, and he says,"Well, you know, I can operate just as efficiently, I can get the same quality of work force, trained people in Newfoundland, trained people in Nova Scotia, I can get the same financial arrangements, I can get everything the same, I wonder what the approach of ~he two governments is like?" And he starts comparing the approaches,and I just use Nova Scotia as an example , it could be New Brunswick, it could be PEI, it could be Alberta, it could be any province, Mr.

Speaker, we have a government which is discouraging business because of its negative statements with respect to business, discouraging business. Now, Mr. Speaker, EPA is an example. I agree, Mr. Speaker, and I will not support the concept that Mr. Steele should not supply information to government. I believe that any large corporation in this Province has a responsibility if there is going to be a desision taken by that company that is going to affect the livelihood of many Newfoundlanders. I believe there is a responsibility to keep government informed and to inform government as quickly as possible, Mr.

Speaker, and Mr. Steele looked somewhat bad by what appeared to be an unwillingless to give infomation to government. MR. TULK: Look at the way they went about it. MR. BARRY: Exactly, Mr -. Speaker. Mr. Steele is a man who has had to show the self-reliance, the independence that all Newfoundlanders possess, Mr. Speaker, except,unfortunately, the members in government, because it is not self-reliance we 153

March 13, 1984 Tape 57 PK - 3 MR . BARRY : are seeing as the message of this gove rnment,it is reliance on Ottawa . The Minister of Fisher ies (Mr . Morgan) every chance he gets says, Well ,! cannot do anything , you have to go to Ottawa for that . The Minister of Energy (~ . Mar shall) says , Oh I cannot do anything ,you have to go to Ottawa for that e And they br~ng it back, Mr . Speaker, to contr~l over your resource s and they ?retend 154

March 13, 1984 Tape No. 58 NM - 1 MR. BARRY: that that is the cause of all the ills of Newfoundland.

Now,it is funny that the government puts forth that it is important for this government to be involved in of=­ shore development so that the people can have the closest possible input into the \vay the resource is develope(! but the government does not put forth the same argument in Labrador when they take a decision on the harvesting of the Georqes Lake - is it? - caribou herd, the Northern caribou herd or when they apply social services rules and regulations, which I agree have to be applied fairly and equally to everybody, but which, I also sugge3t,might be viewed in terms of whether they are appropriate for a particular area of the Province, whether they are sensitive to the needs of the people in a particular area of the Province, people with a particular culture,for example, a different culture, And I ask myself,why is it that the government does not seem to take the same approach to local control and local involvement in Labrador on those types of issues as they do with respect to the offshore?

Is it just power? Is it just the Premier saying, "I want to ha~e the power in my hands rather than Ottawa having any power." Everybody supports, Mr. Speaker, everybody supports the notion that Newfoundland should control its resources to the degree necessary to be able to see a heal thy, viable .,. vibrant provicial government here r but I know the members opposite dread the day, Mr. Speaker, when they would see an offshore oil agreement, they dread the 155

March 13, 1984 Tape No. 58 NM- 2 MR. BARRY: day when they would see a hydro agreement, they dread the day when they would see an agreement with respect to the Northern cod because they would have nothing to blame their failure o~ at that point in time, they would have nothincr to blame tneir incompetence on at that point in time 1 they would have nothing to blame for their unwillingness, Mr. Speaker, to do something to improve the conditions of our people. Mr.

Speaker, there was a provincial forum 0n unemployment sponsored by the Youth Advisory Council in July of 1983 1 and I have a copy of a paper that was Presented by a Mr. Robert Dornan,who at that time was the vice-president of the student council, and it is called Whilst Time Is Burning. Now, Mr . Speaker, this is an excellent little paper on the relationship between the level of education and the level of employment. Mr. Speaker, I have not seen any special measures being taken by the Department of Education, but in the course of debate - the Minister of Education (Ms. Verge) may be inside in the Common Room.

If she is, I hope she is listening or I hope one of her colleagues would raise it to her attention. Maybe she has responded to this report, I have not seen her response if so, but it relates the opPortunity for employment to the level of schooling, the level of education. For exarnple.for St. John's, representing the district of Mount Scio I knowthat there are many of my constitnents who are suffering from unemployment. 156

Barch 13, 1984 Tape No. 59 l-1J - 1 ~1R. BARRY: The level of participation in the labour force for somebody who has less than Grade IX is 37.2 per cent, with a university degr ee it is 83.2 per cent. Now, Mr. Speaker, there is a direct correlation between the level of education and the opportunity for employment and I would hope to see in addition to the government taking some positive measures to stimulate the economy so that our young people can get out and get to work 1 I would hope that the Minister of Education 01s.

Verge) commences a progra~~e immediately to impress upon our young people nm;r in school the importance of their staying in school. Many of them may have no choice now, there are no jobs available,but, Hr. Speaker, they should be given an incentive, they should be given a motivation, they should be shown that if there is any tvay of getting employment in these hard and difficult times, with a gover~~ent that is not doing its job to create employment, the 1;ray of doing it is to get the greatest possible level of education,whether it be university, whether it be College of Trades or whatever.

The College of Trades post-secondary, ncn-university education levels shovT participation rates up in the 70 per cents as opposed to the 80 per cents, Mr. Speaker. There are figures here for the Province as a whole,and everywhere you look you see the same correlation. So, Mr.

Speaker, I think that one of the things that the Minister of Education should be doing is getting some programmes in the schools right now to make sure that anybody who is hovering, any student that is having difficulty with their grades, impress upon them how desperate they are going to be when they get out there and there are no jobs to find and how they will have a better chance if they have a better level of education. Mr. Speaker, one of the most frightening things that I have seen 1which unfortunately is again a direct result of the policy of this government, is 157

March 13, 1984 Tape No . 59 MJ - 2 ~~ - BA.~RY: contained in t~is recent report of the Department of Rural, Agricultural and Northerr. Developrnent . It is called Persistence and Change. 'low, ~x . Speaker, the press release that was issued, I do not kno'" if it was in ten tiona 1, I do not !<nm.,r if it was an attempt to gild the lily, the press release stressed how people seemed to be stayi~g in the rural areas more now than they were in the early 1970s . The report stressed that the level of population in the ru .ral areas is growing more quickly than the level of population in the urban areas . But , Mr.

Speaker , we did not see a single mention in that press release ,and I wonder if any government members opposite might comment as to whether they had any involvement in the release - tt was released by the Departznent of Rural, Agricultur.;~l and Northern Development, the Research and ~..nalysis Division - I am wondering if the government had any input in terms of trying to improve the cosmetics of the essence of this report , becc\'Jse 1-then you look on page 11 o f this report , Mr .

Speaker, it says that the world -wide trend over the last decade has been a net migration to peripheral areas from the industrial core areas . In other words .in recent years,rather than people moving into the cities and into urban areas,people have been moving into a more rural life style . 158

March 13, 1984 Tape 60 EC ~ l MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, between 1971 and 1976, this Province as a whole lost 8,210 persons. There was a net migration. m terms of the people who came in and the people who went out, there were more people who went out of this Province to stay out,to live out of this Province,than came in to live. And the number was 8,210, a brain drain, young people going away looking for work. But, Mr. Speaker, between 1976 and 1981, that net out migration grew to what? Take a guess. Do you think it would be as much as double? Mr. Speaker, it more than tripled.

Between 1976 and 1981 we had 27,209 more people leave this Province than came in. They are being driven away. There is no employment. MR. NEARY: They are being forced out. MR. BARRY: They are being forced out. Now, Mr. Speaker, I will be very interested when the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) brings down his budget whether he can have some figures on net in-migration or out-migration. Are the people of this Province still being driven away since 1981? Are they being driven away to go to work in other provinces in ever-increasing numbers?

I suspect you might find in 1982.that not as many were driven away as in the previous year because the employment was not out there in Alberta any longer, the employment was not in Toronto, so you probably had some slight improvement. MR. NEARY: Saudi Arabia is where a lot of tnem are going. i'·t.."<.. BARRY: Saudi Arabia, make a few dollars over there. I suspect you would see that there was an increase in the migration into Newfoundland because Newfoundlanders who had gone away to work were finding difficulty in those other provinces. But I bet you would 159

March 13, 1984 Tape 60 EC - 2 MR. BARRY: also find, Mr. Speaker, that when those people came back here they did not have jobs. You will also find, Mr. Speaker, that these people had to go either on welfare when their unemployment insurance went out,or they had to leave Newfoundland again. commentary - MR. NEARY: Now, Mr. Speaker, it is a sad When you think about the 40,000 jobs they were going to create. MR. BARRY: Yes, I was getting to that. That was my next point. It is a sad commentary. The Premier in 1979 projected 40,000 jobs would be provided and in 1981 he said the job was done. Now, Mr.

Speaker, I would like the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins),when he brings~ his budget, to indicate how many of those 40,000 jobs have been lost since 1981. MR. NEARY: The 40,000 jobs were over in Halifax, Nova Scotia; that is where he created them. MR. BARRY: I would like to know, Mr. Speaker, how many jobs have been provided by government since 1981. I believe that the Minister of Finance will owe a duty to this House and to the people of Newfoundland to identify just exactly what is happening today. And it is a sad commentary, Mr.

Speaker, when we get to the stage when we see every year more and more people having to leave our Province. Now, the curious thing, Mr. Speaker and it is not so curior.s, it is understandable - with the change of government in 1972, very soon after that you saw for a time a net in-migration, there were more people came into the Province than went out. I think it was within the next year, was it not? MR. DINN: No. It never ever happened. MR. BARRY: There was a period there. 160

March l3 1 1984 MR. DINN: was 205 net out. MR. BARRY: MR. DINN: MR. BARRY: Tape 60 EC - 3 The lowest it '"ent down to Two hundred and five people? Yes, net out. Yes. Mr. Speaker, you saw, in any event - and I would have to check my figures. I am sure I saw there a few years ago the difference- 161

March 13, 1984 Tape No. 61 SD - 1 MR. BARRY: in any event the point is made, If it balanced out 1 I think we would be satisfied,if we had it equal between people leaving and people coming in. But the minister would agree that you saw an improvement in the migration patterns. And I believe, again, the same was true after the 1979 election to a certain extent, was it not? There was some improvement. And what it shows, Mr. Speaker, is that there is a feeling of hope generated when you see some new policies being bro~ght in by a new government. Unfortunately, Mr.

Speaker, what is happening in New£oundland today has happened before. What it is is a tired government. It is a government that has run out of ideas. I.t is a government that is not doing anything to stimulate the economy. It is a government that is not doing anything to encourage. It is not doing anything, Mr.

Speaker, to give reason for hope, whether it be between Newfoundlanders and Newfoundlanders withing the Province,or whether it be hope in Newfoundlanders outside the Province that conditions are going to improve so that they can come back to be able to work with their families · right here and live and earn a gainful employment with. their families in Newfoundland. Mr. Speaker, we have heard the Premier and his government talk a lot about management, talk a lot about wanting to be involved in the management of the offshore. Now, Mr. Speaker, there was· a very interesting

article in Th.e Telegram, I forgot to write the date down but within the last week or s·o,entitled 'Management - Just What Is It?'. And it was written by Dr. James G. Barnes, the Dean of the Faculty of Bus·i:nes ·s· Administration at Memorial University. Mr. Speaker, wha.t do you think he identified as the essence of management? He reviewed the literature, all these experts who talk about management and give seminars and they · couns ·el businessmen on how to manage, how to improve 162

March 13, 1984 Tape No. 61 SD - ·2 MR. BARRY: their management. And what do you think this gentleman concluded was the essence of management? He said, ,-The principle characteristic which these various people identified among successful organizations' -the organizations that manage properly - ' was a tencency to do something. In other words, a bias for action.' Now, Mr. Speaker, let us look at the record of the government opposite. Is this a government which has shown itself capable of management? Is this a government with a tendency to do something? Mr.

Speaker, one must conclude that this is a government which cannot manage, it is a government which. does not have a tendency to do something. Just the opposite. It has a tendency to do nothing. It has a tendency to blame the ills and the worries,whether it be in the Mary·stown Shipyard or whether it be in Labrador West or any part of this- Province where people are unemployed - it has a tendency to do nothing. MR. TOBIN: know it is not. MR. BARRY: That is not true Leo, and you Mr. Speaker, it has a tendency to do noth.ing. It is- a government which. cannot manage. It is a government which is, Mr.

Speaker, leaving itself open - AN HON. MEMBER: (_Inaudible). MR. B'ARRY: after Morgan. MR. NEARY: You have to wait your turn after You are a one term member. 163

March 13, 1984 Tape 62 PK - l SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, members opposite may be interested in nastiness,but members on this side of the House are interested in debating the issues. We are interested in dealing with the real concerns of the people of Newfoundland, Mr. Speaker. And one, Mr. Speaker, of the things that has come clear - SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. BARRY: to yell over the racket. MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : MR. BARRY: Oh, oh! My voice is going. I will not try Order, please! Order, please! When they finish, Mr. Speaker. One of the things, Mr.

Speaker, which is becoming obvious with .respect to the government opposite, Mr. Speaker, is that, and it is a very common characteristic of any government, Mr. Speaker, that has become stale, it is a very common characteristic, Mr. Speaker, of any government that engages in high-flown rhetoric, but, Mr. Speaker, the people know is doing very little for what is really important to the ordinary person in the street, and what is·that characteristic, Mr. Speaker? That characteristic is a losing touch with reality, and I submit that the hon. members opposite have lost touch with the reality of this Province. Mr.

Speaker, they have lost touch with the reality of this Province. And,you know,there is a reason why this government has lost touch with reality. It is a reason which might not be _apparent to anybody who is not working closely with government, is not spending a lot of time inside this Confederation Building, ~d,Mr. Speaker, the reason for government losing touch with reality is that we have a situation.-I think it is 164

March l3, 1984 Tape 62 PK - 2 MR. BARRY: called the yes-man's syndrome, the yes-man's syndrome- we nave a situation where the Premier and Cabinet-and members opposite know of which I speak -the Premie~ and Cabinet have reached the stage where they only want to hear good news and they identify good news as being information which agrees with the government position. Mr.

Speaker, more and more I saw,when I was minister and subsequently ,more and more I saw a tendancy within the public service to be intimidated, to feel that their jobs were being threatened, even their very integrity as Ne~vfoundland citizens, that they were going to be accused of being traitors if they happened to point out the other side of the coin on an issue where the government had taken a party line 1 public servants who dared question whether a particular programme was going to bring about the objectives that were sought. Everybody agrees with the objectives.

And I hope there is one thing that we will not see in this House this session, this attempt to perpetrate a fraud on the people of this Provin~e that somehow there is a difference in the objectives, that somehow members on this side are going to be less Newfoundlanders because we question whether they are going to get the objectives which we all share. And it was the same little 165

March 13,1984 Tape No. 63 ah- 1 MR. BARRY: trick that was tried by the Premier this afternoon. I am going to be very disappointed in him if he attempts to play it because the people are not listening, people know better. The Premier, his government, members opposite are not going to get away with questioning our integrity as citizens, our sincerity in trying to achieve the objectives which every politician in Newfoundland is trying to achieve,namely sufficient control over our resources to ensure they are developed for the maximum benefit of the people of this Province. So let us get past that.

That is why I had no problem moving to this side of the House. I know that the objectives that are here,carried by my colleagues of the Liberal party , are fine objectives. They are good objectives, they are proper objectives to have for politicians in this Province. But I also know that they are prepared to question how do you go about getting ~hose objectives? Do you go about getting control over your offshore resource by going to court before you have to, by throwing away the little bit of bargaining power you might have had from having a legal case, by tossing it down the drain?

Do you get closer to an -offshore agreement by doing that? Members opposite know that you do not. Members opposite know that instead, Mr. Speaker - MR.MORGAN: What did you say in 1982? MR.BARRY: And the member opposite will read the extract from Hansard where,in the heat of debate in trying desperately to put the best face on government policy,I am in there trying to defend the stupidy that enveloped the ·government every time that issue was raised. But , Mr. Speaker, I will ask members 166

March 13,1984 Tape No. 63 ah-2 MR.BARRY: opposite, I will ask members of caucus , I will ask members of government, I will ask the Premier to get up and deny whether the advice given by myself was follm•!ed. 1'1R. MORGAN: You gave no advice. MR. BARRY: Get up and deny whether the advice I gave was ignored with respect to when to go to court and when not to go to court. MR. STAGG: The hon member was silent. MR. BARRY: Mr . Speaker, the hon . member from Stephenville (Mr. Stagg) either was not there or is attempting to mislead this House. I give the member, Mr. Speaker, better credit and I would ask, Mr.

Speaker, before he takes a position - and I welcome the member for Stephenville getting up,as I hope every member opposite will­ and whatever these little games that the Premier plays he has not met this main point,that I advised him against going to court when he did. It was unnecessary. The Federal Court of Appeal did not decide on the offshore case. Now members opposite will get up and talk about - I think the member for Stephenville's term is•selective hindsight.' Mr. Speaker 1 that was foresight. Nobody can be sure whether there are right or whether they are wrong when they give advice, Mr.

Speaker, but the time comes when you have to ask,if the advice is not followed time, after time,after time , you have to ask,is there judgement over there? And I am glad that the member for Humber West (Mr. Baird) brought it to my attention and I would ask him to get up. MR. BAIRD: It will be brought to your attention many times. 167

March 13,1984 Tape No . 63 ah-3 MR.BAP~~Y: I will ask him, Mr .Speaker, to get up and deny, as a man of honour, that what I say is cor=ect. I ask him to get up and deny that . MR .BAIRD: You must have dreamt that. MR .B~~Y: I ask them, Mr . Speaker, to deny that the ?remier knew, he had the advice, that it was unnecessary to go to court with the reference to the Court of Appeal .

He could have had it prepared and he could have had it all ready to go, and, if the federal Court o= Appeal brought down a decision deciding on the offshore question, he could have had the reference in the Court of Appeal in Newfoundland that same morning, the same morning that it •,.;ras brought down. No, Mr . Speaker! 168

March 13, 1984 Ta pe 64 EC - l MR. MORGAN: That is not true. MR. WARREN: It is true. It is shocking! MR. BARRY: I hope the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan), who follows me 1 as a man of honour, deals with that point, Mr. Speaker. And I want to see, Mr. Speaker, whether the great principles of members opposite are that this House will not be misled by any statement of any member given in this House. MR. MORGAN: What are you doing new? SOME HON. HEHBE:RS: Gh, oh~ MR.

BARRY: I want to see whether members opposite are so desperate to cling to power, so terrified by the prospects that they see facing them in the next election, I want to see, Mr. Speaker, whether they are prepared to get up and attempt to revise history. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. BARRY: Because I was, Mr. Speaker, naive, and expecting the members opposite had sense enough to change their policies. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. BARRY: Mr.

Speaker, I raised,'wi th respect to the offshore case, the question of why it was that,in going to the Newfoundland Court of Appeal, several crucial cases were left out of the Province's presentation. And, Mr. Spea~er, that in no way was intended to reflect upon the competence or the ability - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER (Aylward): Order, please! Order, please! MR. BARRY: ~rr. Speaker, I in no way wanted to reflect upon the competence and ability of the lawyers presenting the case but, Mr. Speaker, there was a very 169

March 13, 1984 Tape 64 EC - 2 MR . BAR.. R. Y : complicated and extensive amount of ma terial that we had been prep~ring. MR. DINN: The expert did not (inaudible) . MR. BARRY: And the expert, the one person who most knew vlhat it was crucial to extract from that material, Mr. Speaker, di d not have the opp ortunit y of dealing with - MR. WALSH: He denied that. MR. BARRY: And that is the point, Mr. Speaker, he did not deny that. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. BARRY: He denied, Mr.

Speaker ! ft7e had the games being played, the same games today when the Premier refused to answer our question in Question Period; we had the same gamesmanship being played by the Premier and the Minister of Justice (Mr. Ottenheimer), unfortunately, w·here the Minister of Justice released a statement ,by the gentle- man to whom I referred,that he had not told me that he had been frozen out. Mr. Speaker, did you hear the Minister of Justice sa v that that qentleman denied that it happened? No, Mr. Speaker, you saw games being played. SOME " HON .- MEMBERS": Oh, oh! MR.

BARRY: And I \<Iant the Hinister of Justice, I want the Premier and the Minister of Energy (~. Marshall) to get up and tell this House point-blank, Mr. Speaker, whether or not that consultant bad the oppor- tunity to look at the final presentation and advise whether all the cases were in there that should be. I know that he did not, ~- Speaker, and nobody over there has denied yet that he did or stated that he did. Nobody has denied what I said. They have attempted to mislead the press, by the games that were played, by word games, 11r.

Speaker, and I would ask the press to go back and put the question again to the Minister of Justice: Has the Minister of 170

March 13, 1984 Tape 64 EC - 3 MR. BARRY: Justice (Mr . Ottenheimer) obtained a denial,as to what I said,from ~~e gentleman mentioned? Has the gentleman mentioned confirmed that he \•las consulted \.,:ith respect to the fL"''al fonn- and I am not talking about at the b~ginning of the preparation of the case, I am talk : ng about when the presentation was in its final 171

March 13, 1984 Tape 65 PK - 1 M.R. BARRY: form - the factum was prepared and ready to go to our Newfoundland Court of Appeal. That has not yet been denied, Mr. Speaker, and members opposite cannot deny it. MR. STAGG: We deny it. MR. B.t •• mY: Yes, the member for Stephenville (Mr. Stagg) would deny anything, obviously. The member for Stephenville is ready to do anything that might see him get a Cabinet post; he will deny, he will agree, he will do whatever he wants. Now the member for Fogo (Mr.

Tulk) here has said that he has issued him an invitation to come on over because at least he will get a shadow Cabinet post over here, Mr. Speaker. MR. STAGG: his former self. MR. BARRY: MR. BAIRD: The hon. member is a shadow of The ghost who walks and talks. Where is the member for Mount Scio (Mr. Barry) running in the the next election7 MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, the member for Mount Scio is going to run in the next election in the place where I will be most - I hope it will be Mount Scio, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS: You hope! MR. BARRY: I hope it will be Mount Scio.

I understand that a potential candidate is being groomed already, I understand he wanted to have an office set up in the Confederation Building. We will have to check into that because I assume that means we can have the forty-four potential candidates whom we are going to line up, who will be the members the next time around, set up desks in the Confederation Building too to start doing the jobs for the constituents out 172

March 13, 1984 MR. BARRY: opposite should be doing. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. SPEAKER: Tape 65 PK - 2 there that these members Oh, oh! Order, please! Oh, oh! Order, please! MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, I can assure members opposite wherever I run I will win and wherever they run they will lose. MR. SPEAKER: MR. DINN: MR. MORGAN: SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I will be running in Pleasantville. Mr. Speaker. Hear, hear! The hon. Minister of Fisheries. MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, the comment from my colleague behind me, the member for Stephenville (Mr.

Stagg), is so appropriate. The han. gentleman who just spoke in debate for his first time as a member of the Opposition is indeed, as the member for Stephenville just said, a shadow of his former self. But more than that, his humility shows so much this afternoon. What a humble person is the man who just left our caucus and crossed the floor because he could not live with the policies and could not live with our caucus under the present situation and he had to leave to cross the floor to join the Liberal Party.

The humble person who just sat down, the humble gentleman is an expert on the budgetary matters, an expert on the fishing industry, he is an expert on the offshore, he is an expert on how to create jobs, he is an expert on how to get investment to the Province, he is an expert on developing the Province, he is an expert on getting the economy moving, he is an expert on everything. Now, Mr. Speaker, the question has to be posed, because it is posed to me in all my travels the last couple of weeks around the Province. 'The gentleman who left your 173

March 13, 1984 Tape 65 PK -3 MR. MORGAN: caucus, is he sincere? Ne feel he is not sincere.' These are quotes from the people whom I have met in my travels across the Province. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. MORGAi.~ : Now, ~k. Speaker, let us look at the question of sincerity. There was a meeting held in St.John s about four or five days just prior to the public announcement of Mr. Barry leaving the PC caucus and crossing the floor to join· the Liberal Party, a meeting to discuss politics.

A meeting held in St.John's to discuss politics, a very heavy meeting, a meeting on strategy, a meeting on how to put programmes in place, a meeting on how to put policies in place -policies and programmes and strategies of what party? MR. BAIRD: The Tory Party. MR. MORGAN: Was it the Liberal Party? No. Guess what? It was the Tory Party. But who was there as that meeting? Who was there at that meeting 174

March 13, 1984 Tape No. 66 NM - 1 MR. MORGAN: taking

part in discussion on planning strategies to g~t rid of the Liberal Government in Ottawa, taking

part in how to put forward programmes and policies to make sure we defeated Mr. Trudeau and his government, taking

part in strategies to dev~lop the offshore issue, how to put forward the offshore issue on behalf of the PC Party in the upcoming general election to get rid of Mr. Chretien and Mr. Trudeau, who at the time was still there, and Mr. Lalonde, and others? It was the hon. qentl~~an who just sat down, would you believe it? Three or four days before. Now,if he was sitting down with a Liberal group and discussing how he was going to arrange to put fo~ward a policy, and like h8 said in debate back in May of '82, talking about policies of the party he just joined,he said - where is that famous quote?

I had the quotes here. Oh 1 yes, here it is­ "There are almost as many policies on the other side of the House of Assembly on any one issue as there are members." That is the same hon. gentleman who stood here and said that. Now,if he was sitti~g down in St. John's at that time and talking about putting in place new policies from this party he just joined, or was going to join three or four days after, if he was doing that it may have left a little inkling of sincerity·on his behalf. But,no,he was not doing that, he was discussing the strategies and the policies anc programmes that he wanted to put in place.

Now, how was he going to put them :i.n place? Here is the key question - sincerity. He was going to do one important thing in the upcoming general federal election. Guess what he was going to do? He was going to run against the federal minister for our Province. That was his aim. 175

March 13, 1984 Tape No. 66 HR. MORGAN: The hon. gentleman from Grand Falls (Mr. Simms), his district association was consulted. He held meetings with PC Party supporters about two weeks before he crossed the floor. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! NM - 2 MR. MORGAN: Oh, they do not like it. They do not like. Oh, they do not like it. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. ~10RGi\.. N : They do not like it, Mr. Speaker, because the question is posed throughout the Province, How sincere is the hon. gentleman? How ·sincere is he in crossing the floor on issues in the Province today? Now, Mx.

S?eaker, the question of sincerity is being posed by the general electorate of the Province, it is being posed by the general populace and I will tell you, Mr. Speaker, it is being posed in a very sincere way.by the people of the Mount Scio riding. And there is no question in my mind that because of his sitting down with the people in Mount Scio and the planners for the next federal election, for our side, that the people in Mount Scio know the han. gentleman who crossed the floor is not sincere. Now is this the same gentleman who stood today in debate talking about what happened on the offshore issue?

Is this same han. gentleman the gentleman who suddenly, in a temperamental mood, made the decision to leave the caucus in the same manner as he made the decision to quit the Cabinet back in September of 1980? Mr. Speaker, I would beg to say that the han. gentleman, in September of 1981, made a very rash decision, one that he was 176

March 13, 1984 Tape No. 67 MJ - l MR. MORGAN: so sorry for within twenty-four hours that I was one of the gentlemen, as a Minister of the Cabinet, who was approached by a number of prominent PC party workers at his request, at the request of the hon. gentleman, to approach the Premier to try to get him back in the Cabinet again. He had made a rash decision. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. BARRETT: Oh, no! Oh, no! MR. MORGAN: He had made it in a fit of temper and he was sorry for his decision.

He earlier said, 'Oh, the Minister of Fisheries was crying because he could not get an agreement with the federal minister.' The hon. gentleman was crying to get back in the Cabinet, he was actually crying to get back in the Cabinet. · h c · · t' Mr Speaker 'Talk to Mr. Peckford and get me back lnto t e aDlne · · maybe we can forgive him for the rash decision he made. MR. SIMMS: Which one? MR. MORGAN: The rash decision he made to leave the caucus and cross the floor to stand today and condemn the policies and programmes of this government. MR. SIMMS: That was not rash, that was two years coming. MR.

MORGAN: Now, while I am on the topic, the question is sincerity or insincerity on his part. The hon. gentleman, the day he quit and crossed the floor, he wrote a letter. The letter was written to an individual in our caucus. It was sent to the individual in our caucus addressed. The hon. gentleman, the m~~ber for Fortune - Hermitage (Mr. Stewart). It was addressed to him. Addressed to him in what capacity? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Chairman of the Caucus. MR. MORGAN: Chairman of the Caucus. But, Mr. Speaker, the Chairman of the Caucus for over a year prior to that was the member for Windsor - Buchans (Mr. McLennon).

He did not even know who the Caucus Chairman was. 177

Harch 13, 19 84 Tape No. 67 t~J - 2 SOME HON. !!E!~BERS : Hear, hear! MR, HOP.Gl>-._1\f: So, Mr.

Speaker, it clearly shows that the hon. gentleman •·•'1o today is standing up to condemn the fisheries policies,to condemn me as minister, to condemn the various ministers, to conde! ~ the Premier and his policies, and the M.inister responsible for Znergy anc ':he offshore (Hr. -~~~hall) , condemn all of our policies and what we stand for iD kee~ing this Newfoundland going in the last couple of years - I said earlier across the floor and I will say it again for the record of th.i.:s House of :'\ssembly, we have had a number of important caucus meetings, caucus meetings convened by the Chairman of the Caucus, mostly at the request of the leader of the party, the Premier of the Province, tc do >vhat?

To ma